Now that I hooked you - some who is attending CEDIA can post here with the latest Theta Digital news.

CEDIA will hopefully update us re info at Theta's current website:

http://www.thetadigital.com/faq.shtml

Casablanca III

Q: Is the Casablanca III compatible with HDMI?

A1: The Theta Digital's product development team are hard at work on several projects, including an HDMI 1.3 audio and video solution exclusively for the Casablanca III, for use with the Premium, the Superior II and the Xtreme D-2 DAC cards. (The discontinued Standard and Superior I DAC cards are not compatible with HDMI audio.) The final pricing has not been determined, but the product development team is estimating it will be around $4,000 USD to $5,000.00 USD to install the HDMI 1.3 audio and video solution in a Casablanca III. This option will likely become available this summer. Once installed, it will allow the Casablanca III to access and process the latest HD audio codecs from Dolby Labs and DTS. The video portion will be pass-through, to allow folks to use the HDMI video processor / scaler / transcoder / upconverter of their choice.

A2: The team is also working on an all-balanced higher resolution Digital Output card for the Casablanca III that will likely be released once the HDMI option is available. Final pricing of that new Digital Output card has not even been estimated yet, since it's still in the midst of development.

Summer? 2010? $4000 - $5000? Is the pricing determined by charging $1000 for every year Theta has been late to the game with HDMI?

C'mon Steve, you know more than this. I could've written that press release last year and been right on!!!

Summer? 2010? $4000 - $5000? Is the pricing determined by charging $1000 for every year Theta has been late to the game with HDMI?

C'mon Steve, you know more than this. I could've written that press release last year and been right on!!!

Jeff, since you are at CEDIA, we are waiting for your report and pictures!!:D:D:p:)

From the forum you last moderated,"I spoke with Carl Nicholson at the Theta booth. The bad news is the HDMI card is not ready. He would not give me a definite date but I got the distinct impression that CES would be the launch date. The good news is they debuted the Compli Blue Blu-ray player. It is based on the Oppo unit, with the power supply and the digital and analog audio sections by Theta. I'll post pictures soon.'' Administration.

From the forum you last moderated,"I spoke with Carl Nicholson at the Theta booth. The bad news is the HDMI card is not ready. He would not give me a definite date but I got the distinct impression that CES would be the launch date. The good news is they debuted the Compli Blue Blu-ray player. It is based on the Oppo unit, with the power supply and the digital and analog audio sections by Theta. I'll post pictures soon.'' Administration. Frack Theta.

That one. The one I left when they let DW post there. HA!

Should be just in time for HDMI 1.4 :confused::mad:

HDMI 1.4 equals more bandwidth, 3-D, and ethernet over HDMI... the latter being a big plus! (at least in limiting cables).

Ya know, I am actually relocating and building a new house http://www.architecturaldesigns.com/cgi-bin/result.pl?activity=search&knownplan=48034FM&or=TRew house . Likely, I would not do an upgrade until next summer. It's a principle issue for me. Theta is not credible. IF I upgrade whenever the thing happens, this will be my last dealing with Theta. I am DONE. Blu-ray player from Theta? :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Never.

You are taking your Six Shooter out of its holster and aimin' it right at Theta?:rolleyes: Sounds like you are ready to get in bed with The Bland.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Almost makes ya wish ya went with Halcro. HA! HA!

Yep, may well jump ship too. Its gotten absurd, even dishonest. I've had it.

You are taking your Six Shooter out of its holster and aimin' it right at Theta?:rolleyes: Sounds like you are ready to get in bed with The Bland.:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Almost makes ya wish ya went with Halcro. HA! HA!

I don't see the humor here. Sure I butt heads with you and Bulldogger but I was waiting to here the 'I told you so' talk this week and ultimately, I wanted to see how Theta handled this. I mean, the banter is all in fun but getting HDMI is serious if you care about home theater. I was secretly rooting for you guys to get it :).. For all your guys' sakes, I was hoping you'd get your HDMI, 1080P24 pass through and lossless.. If Theta truly is pushing this until next year, who'd really wait or will it really come as an upgrade? They may be planning to do what Lexicon found to be necessary, trade in the analog box for an HDMI one. I didn't really want to be the one saying 'I told you so' but I am shocked if I was right all along!?

**crying**

If were even close, they would show something! This is VERY dissapointing!

My Theta has been sitting on the side awaiting the upgrade. I have been using the Onkyo DTC 9.8 in the meantime, and it does an amazing job with Digital sources (analog input - not so much). However, I am not going to wait 12 more months for this to arrive, as it will be done and over with before then.

HDMI 1.4 is coming. I bet it will be available within 6-8 months. First truly outstanding, audiophile piece which supports it fully will get the cash I put aside for Theta.

VERY DISSAPOINTING!

**crying**

However, I am not going to wait 12 more months for this to arrive, as it will be done and over with before then.

HDMI 1.4 is coming. I bet it will be available within 6-8 months. First truly outstanding, audiophile piece which supports it fully will get the cash I put aside for Theta.

VERY DISSAPOINTING!

I gave up on Theta a year ago...using the Integra 9.8 while the CBIII collects dust. I have tried to sell my CBIII but no takers. Perhaps Theta can purchase it back for parts?

As for resale, we're stuck keeping it until the upgrade comes out -- if it comes out.

I've been using the Onkyo too, but pulling the L/R outputs and running them from the Theta for music. Thought my days as a switchboard operator were coming to an end.

As for resale, we're stuck keeping it until the upgrade comes out -- if it comes out.

I've been using the Onkyo too, but pulling the L/R outputs and running them from the Theta for music. Thought my days as a switchboard operator were coming to an end.

You and Shumi raise the other big factor in all this. It is one thing to keep being spoofed by Theta, but if you did want to move on and reclaim some money back from the considerable amount invested in the CBIII, the thing has practically no re-sale value.

This whole saga began with those deliberately misleading posts from Theta's former owners on Theta's website and this forum back in 2007. It seems that despite ATI taking over and supposedly providing Theta with the resources they needed to get the thing done; Theta still do not have the required engineering capability to deal with the complexities and constantly evolving nature of HDMI.

I expect Theta realise that most current owners could not justify selling their CBIII's at tremendous loss and will just hang on to them; even if they take the unit out of their systems. From Theta's point of view, while current owners might be aggravated and some may even dump the brand forever, enough will keep their CBIIIs so that if the upgrade ever is done there will be a pool of people who will be fairly guaranteed to buy it. IMHO, it has been this that helps Theta justify continued investment from it's parent company.

Sean

I've been warning folks for a long time now to buy something "inexpensive" like the Integra DTC 9.8 to tide them over hoping Theta will come thru with the HDMI 1.3 upgrade, not to newly get into a Theta CB3 until the chicken has hatched from the egg. Despite that foolish OB at that "other forum" accusing me of leading the blind when he hadn't read my posts.

Due to all the delays, whatever the reason (actually, I know of a large reason for the delay, that you don't know, but I am sworn to confidentiality on that), putting new money into a CB3 is foolish at this point, - until HDMI is out and reasonably available as an upgrade path. And unless that occurs, folks will be justified to feel that they have been mislead by Theta. I am "hoping" HDMI will eventually come out in 2010 sometime and that the upgrade will have the nickname "The Bland's Folly" but yea
folks are quite justified to consider The Bland as a audio video Nostradamus re the end of (not the world) Theta Digital.

As for the Theta Blu Ray Player - hey, give us two of them, one simply as a HDMI transport, and one with the upgraded multi-channel analog outputs. That makes more sense assuming Theta intends and does come thru with HDMI 1.3 on the CB3. At this point a big assumption.

Steve,

I think that at this point, unless they implement HDMI 1.4, and are amongst the first to get it out the door working, no one will care. Since this is the way things are going, at this point I will wait and see.

This is pretty scary stuff. :( This morning I starting thinking about converting my CBIII to a high end paperweight or doorstop. But is there any single device available that can access the new bluray codecs and still sound as good as the CBIII with extreme dacs on redbook cd?

For a while I had a loaner Integra and for cd play it was just not as detailed and involving.

Steve

I hope Evelyn is not laughing hard somewhere on a yacht!!! Someone should dig up her posts on this. I can't recall exactly when (# of years ago) or the thread title.

actually, I know of a large reason for the delay, that you don't know, but I am sworn to confidentiality on that)

This is exactly the kind of nonsense that has to stop. Trickles and rumors through private sources. Theta's major asset outside of their technology at this point is the installed base who may still be interested. They need to come clean. I work in marketing/advertising -- done right (like their digital), it is their best move. Let us know exactly what's going on, level with us -- it creates goodwill between the company and consumer, and in this case, might reestablish some trust. Whatever is going on, their marketing/PR has been headless.

Actually, it likely doesn't matter what the delay cause is this time as Theta is on their 5th delay excuse. I think Peter is right, no HDMI 1.4 no go.

Why bother with an expensive HDMI solution (1.3) at the dawn of it's demise?

This is the time ATI should be fast at work on HDMI 1.4 and be the leader in the newest technology rather than the caboose on the train of advancements.

Not sure what the value to me is of HDMI 1.4, though admittedly haven't thought it through. 3D is some years away from worthwhile home use for many reasons, and I'm sure the transmission standards will have changed by that time. Ethernet over HDMI? Don't see the big deal, but might well be missing something. As for greater bandwidth, I expect that to be well ahead of the software for quite awhile. Gaming maybe, but 4K movies files won't be on a disc, and the availability, methodology and bandwidth to download them is also distant, to say nothing of any kind of user base w/4K pjs.

Thinking out loud here before really thinking, but why is HDMI 1.4 important? Seems like just another stop in the road and not a particularly compelling one.

This is exactly the kind of nonsense that has to stop. Trickles and rumors through private sources. Theta's major asset outside of their technology at this point is the installed base who may still be interested. They need to come clean. I work in marketing/advertising -- done right (like their digital), it is their best move. Let us know exactly what's going on, level with us -- it creates goodwill between the company and consumer, and in this case, might reestablish some trust. Whatever is going on, their marketing/PR has been headless.

I agree, the vague "I know something you don't" stuff is just pointless and a little egotistical frankly. To me, whatever the reason for the delay, it is another example of Theta not meeting their own timetable, further casting doubt on their credibility and Theta have a big credibility problem IMHO.

The real issue I have is Theta's silence, they made a specefic claim about summer arrival, if that is not the case they need to be forthcoming, silence is very amateur.

Oh and yes Steve your comment is also very immature, how does your secret knowledge help the forum discussion?

This is pretty scary stuff. :( This morning I starting thinking about converting my CBIII to a high end paperweight or doorstop. But is there any single device available that can access the new bluray codecs and still sound as good as the CBIII with extreme dacs on redbook cd?

For a while I had a loaner Integra and for cd play it was just not as detailed and involving.

Steve

How good is the Meridian 861, which has an HDMI add on, for redbook CD?

How good is the new Classe HDMI surround processor on redbook CD?

That I don't know.

But yea the EXtreme DACs are darn fine as is the Six Shooter preamp. But it would be nice to someday get the rest of the package but who knows?

The real issue I have is Theta's silence, they made a specefic claim about summer arrival, if that is not the case they need to be forthcoming, silence is very amateur.

Oh and yes Steve your comment is also very immature, how does your secret knowledge help the forum discussion?

How does anything here help the forum discussion???

Your first paragraph is right on point!!!@@@

I will accept your criticism on "immaturity" since you are a designated expert my friend. HA!

How good is the Meridian 861, which has an HDMI add on, for redbook CD?

How good is the new Classe HDMI surround processor on redbook CD?

That I don't know.

But yea the EXtreme DACs are darn fine as is the Six Shooter preamp. But it would be nice to someday get the rest of the package but who knows?

I feel for the Theta owners as I went through something very similar a few years back when I had a fully loaded TAG AV192R (i.e. with deinterlacer + scaler +...) only to find out that 3 months later they were pucrahsed by IAG and that was the end of the AV192R...

I took a chance that my intuition was right and got out of my AV192R and moved to Meridian and could not be happier...while Meridian has there own way of doing things which is somnetimes problematic the HD621 + 861 does sound terrific and, perhaps admittedly bias, I have no thoughts of moving / upgrading to something else as the combination (also have a Meridian 800 for redbook CD playback over MHR) sounds great!

I wish -- truly do -- all the Theta owners well...

You need to just give up on theta. I have even moved on from Halcro and now use the Simaudio cp-8. It is one hell of a processor. It just works. Even with the new Halcro 220 (as good as it was) it still had its faults. The Cp-8 has worked from the start just plug and play, not one glitch and the quality of the music is much (i say) much better then the Halcros. I was one of the first to buy the Halcro and I hated to jump ship, but when I find a product that is this good, I just have to move on. Also with the economy the way it is there are deals to be made.

in today's world, I wouldn't recommend the Halcro unless it is used and the price is extremely good. I wouldn't recommend a new one at all as it is too quirky and HDMI 1.2. We are simply in the dark ages with SSPs.. Though the Simaudio appears to be a new light.

The good news is they debuted the Compli Blue Blu-ray player. It is based on the Oppo unit, with the power supply and the digital and analog audio sections by Theta. I'll post pictures soon.'' Administration. Frack Theta.

Very interesting, any ideas on release date and prices ?

Btw, HDMI 1.4 is 2160p capable too, don't forget that guys.

Actually, for digital sources I find the DTC 9.8 to be a fine piece.

What I might actually do for two channel audio is purchase a good external 2-channel DAC with volume control and be done with it.

The reason Theta now has to go to HDMI 1.4 or give it up is that by the time they ship, they will be shipping with old technology. I assume I will need to upgrade to HDMI 1.4 with 2-5 years, as such I will not be sinking a lot of money into a processor upgrade, only to have to do it all over again in a couple of years.

As for the Theta BD player - it is an Oppo with improved ANALOG audio out. Who is using ANALOG audio out of their BD-player anyway? Oh, yeah, right - Theta users stuck using the Six-Shooter instead of HDMI.

Give me a break!

You and Shumi raise the other big factor in all this. It is one thing to keep being spoofed by Theta, but if you did want to move on and reclaim some money back from the considerable amount invested in the CBIII, the thing has practically no re-sale value.


Sean

I paid $12000 plus for my CBIII. IT is in absolute virgin conditions as I rarely used it. Does anyone know how I can get any money for it? Should I trade it in with an authorized Theta dealerfor something else? Do we know if they will even take them for trade? This is absolutely disgusting!!!!

They are worth almost nothing at this point. Check prices on Audiogon. But before you do have a nice stiff drink. Also, note how many are listed there.

I'm not really sure what the fuss is about 1.4. Are there any upcoming AUDIO applications. If there are eventually video applications, then I would need 1.4 in a video processor and of course a 4K projector. But my hypothetical video could still in all likelihood extract the audio parts of the signal and output them in a form that would be compatible with 1.3 inputs of an audio processor preamp. All the more reason for avoiding audio gear that also do video processing. This may actually be a point in favor of the Theta approach (whether undertaken by Theta or someone else).

Steve

I paid $12000 plus for my CBIII. IT is in absolute virgin conditions as I rarely used it. Does anyone know how I can get any money for it? Should I trade it in with an authorized Theta dealerfor something else? Do we know if they will even take them for trade? This is absolutely disgusting!!!!

I've had the Casablanca and upgraded it since 1997. How long have you had yours?

How good is the Meridian 861, which has an HDMI add on, for redbook CD?

How good is the new Classe HDMI surround processor on redbook CD?

That I don't know.

But yea the EXtreme DACs are darn fine as is the Six Shooter preamp. But it would be nice to someday get the rest of the package but who knows?

I can say that Classe claims the SSP 800 is the best 2 channel performer out of any of their Delta series including CDPs and any pre-amp they have made. It really is worth a listen. Its like havng the quality of a high end dedicated 2 channel CDP in all the MCHs of the SSP.

Personally its better then any CDP player I have heard. Its that good. Having said that I havent spent as much time as many auditioning CDPs.

Steve,

I think that at this point, unless they implement HDMI 1.4, and are amongst the first to get it out the door working, no one will care. Since this is the way things are going, at this point I will wait and see.

Do you think HDMI 1.4 is needed? 4k seems like a joke when "deep color" never happened. What exactly is going to be the source for the 4k material if when can not get 2k stuff with deep color now because of the blu-ray spec. Looks like the HDMI group is full of as much shite as Theta. They promote "deep color" as a big component to make everyone want 1.3b and now that are promoting 4k. Seems like a con.

I paid $12000 plus for my CBIII. IT is in absolute virgin conditions as I rarely used it. Does anyone know how I can get any money for it? Should I trade it in with an authorized Theta dealerfor something else? Do we know if they will even take them for trade? This is absolutely disgusting!!!!

Take me seriously when I say this. I am not joking. If the statue of limitation is not up from the time you purchased it, you could sue Theta for the false claim on their website . Actually a certain attorney advised me nearly ten year ago now, that I could sue a company in small claims court for their false claims. I did not actually do it. However, I passed this information on to another owner who did sue in small claims court. The processor we owned cost 5k at the time. You can not bluff you have to actually file suit . He was able to recoup most of his money. The company sent a refund to the dealer. The problem was the dealer. He put up a fight about giving up the profit that he made from the sale and did not seem to want to settle. It's been years now and I do not know if the guy was ever successful with getting the rest of his money back from the dealer. Theta has the HDMI upgrade posted on their website. You can take them to court and win if the legal conditons, like statue of limits, are met. I remember this guy being very happy about the 3k he recovered.

Bulldogger,

I am not saying that 1.4 is essential TODAY. However, it is coming and it will be useful if one is looking to move to 4K or 3D in the future. If Theta wants to position themselves as "future-proof" coming out with HDMI 1.3x at this point is laughable.

I want HDMI 1.75 and nothing less - before I die!!!@@@

I've had my CB since 97 also, so there

I have one of the first 50 which were made and have had it upgraded all the way to the CBIII - I'm still ticked, regardless.

I'm still ticked, regardless.

Indeed length of ownership has little relevance. I bought mine in 2007 when, much like now, Theta listed HDMI on their website as something that was really happening. I was told in emails from Theta that they had 'working boards' back then and I was happy to believe Theta and their forum marketing that it was true. Shame on me, because it was all crap.

You always take a chance when you buy any piece of gear and at some point everything becomes obsolete. Salesmanship is what is it, but what Theta did then was just lies.

What has happened since ATI came along is a mystery, but the recent alleged staff changes (remember the timing of John Ballofs departure back then?) and the drip drip of vague, impossible to verify updates has got to stop. Of course there are people who really do know the true state of affairs, but the silence, while their own website's release dates pass without comment is little different than the what the old Theta did in 2007.

I don't know how many other new CBIII's have been sold since 2007 with the promise that HDMI is coming (look, here is a picture of a CBIII with HDMI outputs on the back and the HDMI logo on the display!) Of course Theta need sales to keep in business, but at the end of the day it is cause and effect. The terrible used prices is evidence of this.

I was looking back through the posts concerning Theta and HDMI over the last couple of years and it is tragically funny. My own rose tinted posts back then make me feel quite the fool!

I hope to look back on the posts I write now with similar embarrassment when my currently not working CBIII has HDMI and all is well, but that is just one of many possible outcomes! :confused:

I have one of the first 50 which were made

My last 3 digits are 036, so Peter, care to say if yours has a higher or lower S/N? I just find it of some personal interest where these originals might be found. I have yet to hear from anyone with a S/n prior to 036.

All I can say about our HDMI debacle/quandary at this point in the game is ''ARGGHHH'' Spirits have hit a new low here for certain :mad:

Marc

The discussion in the Theta booth when I was there was it would enter beta testing soon. They were hoping to start shipping late this year, but who knows. The confidence level from Theta did not sound high. He implied a perfect HDMI card was difficult in practice.

Looking at their booth they did not look to be flush with cash. The interest in there products also appeared to be very low.

The discussion in the Theta booth when I was there was it would enter beta testing soon. They were hoping to start shipping late this year, but who knows. The confidence level from Theta did not sound high. He implied a perfect HDMI card was difficult in practice.

Looking at their booth they did not look to be flush with cash. The interest in there products also appeared to be very low.

This was the same response at CEDIA 2008. Exactly.

An HDMI card is difficult? Everyone else has one. Sometimes I wonder who trains these reps in answering questions. A better response may've been, "it is difficult to achieve Theta's level of sophistication, reliability and quality while retrofitting an older piece... Here's a $2000K discount card for the delay."

in today's world, I wouldn't recommend the Halcro unless it is used and the price is extremely good. I wouldn't recommend a new one at all as it is too quirky and HDMI 1.2. We are simply in the dark ages with SSPs.. Though the Simaudio appears to be a new light.

Sorry but I do not agree with the dark ages comment. All the major consumer electronic companies already have HDMI, namely Sony, Denon, Integra, Pioneer etc, etc. The SSPs from these companies work very well and are very reliable. Note, I am not saying that they did not have any issues during the early days of HDMI.

The simple truth is; the only companies who are left behind are the so called high end companies. These companies are generally too small to pool together the large number of hardware/software engineers required to get HDMI working. When one is just manufacturing very precise analog components such as pre-amps and power-amps, you can do with a small coterie of very talented engineers. However, for DSP work on the SSPs it is a very different type of design. You need a lot of resources with a different set of talent.

Granted given sufficient time, these high end companies will catch up eventually. But it sure does not look good when a new HDMI standard is introduced every 1.5 years.

This was the same response at CEDIA 2008. Exactly.

hile retrofitting an older piece... Here's a $2000K discount card for the delay."

The response is a little different this year. When presented with the knowledge that Casablanca owners were outraged with the news, the response was,"It is what it is."

Take me seriously when I say this. I am not joking. If the statue of limitation is not up from the time you purchased it, you could sue Theta for the false claim on their website . Actually a certain attorney advised me nearly ten year ago now, that I could sue a company in small claims court for their false claims. I did not actually do it. However, I passed this information on to another owner who did sue in small claims court. The processor we owned cost 5k at the time. You can not bluff you have to actually file suit . He was able to recoup most of his money. The company sent a refund to the dealer. The problem was the dealer. He put up a fight about giving up the profit that he made from the sale and did not seem to want to settle. It's been years now and I do not know if the guy was ever successful with getting the rest of his money back from the dealer. Theta has the HDMI upgrade posted on their website. You can take them to court and win if the legal conditons, like statue of limits, are met. I remember this guy being very happy about the 3k he recovered.

Bulldogger,
I have been considering sueing Theta. I bought my CBIII in 2005.

???????????????????????????????


http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/cedia09_vip/#/12

My opinion is anyone who bought the CB3 with Theta's implied warranty that it would be upgradeable to HDMI should absolutely sue, unfortunately I bought my CB2 long ago and upgraded to CB3 with no thought of HDMI upgrade path so I would not be eligible, nor would I in good conscious sue them.

But someone should take Theta to task for this

I did something similar with JVC after they advertised the G-150 DILA I purchased 7 years ago would be HDCP compliant. Even advertised it as such. Had a download of the web page from JVC indicating such. Well, it never came to be and with the help of my dealer (AVS), there wasn't a need to sue as they (JVC) refunded my entire $13,000 (as I clearly had the facts on my side). However, I was ready to go forward as my new PJ was an immediate boat anchor. It was a hassle though going through the JVC hierarchy but with persistence and my dealer's help, JVC saw the light.

Does anyone know when Theta first announced plans to integrate the HDMI card into the CBIII. Was it prior to being sold to ATI?
Thanks

Does anyone know when Theta first announced plans to integrate the HDMI card into the CBIII. Was it prior to being sold to ATI?
Thanks


Theta started exploring and discussing here at AVS the concept of HDMI for the CB3 I think about June 2007. The sale to ATI was Oct-Nov 2007. At some point thereafter ATI-Theta said they would be working on the HDMI upgrade full speed ahead, last CEDIA they demod a static model and eventually earlier this year they updated their website.

The threads with the info you want should all be in the AVS archives.

Does anyone know when Theta first announced plans to integrate the HDMI card into the CBIII. Was it prior to being sold to ATI?
Thanks

Not sure the exact date, but you can start here and work your way back! Note: the link is to a thread from 2007.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9537815&highlight=#post9537815

The thing to have is the old HDMI FAQ that Theta had on their website for ages, even after being taken over by ATI. I used to have a screen shot of it, but I deleted not long ago thinking it was no longer relevant. Theta took it down eventually. If any one has a copy it would make for interesting reading!

I emailed Theta complaining about the HDMI FAQ. I still have the email and it has one excerpt from the FAQ;

"The good news is that Theta processors — the Casablanca you may have now or the Valis you will soon be able to own — may be the only ones you can buy NOW that will allow you to move easily (and without that wasted expense) into the future"

If Theta can't handle the engineering needed for HDMI maybe they could at least provide an 8 shooter to simplify access to 7.1 material from Blu-ray players.

If Theta can't handle the engineering needed for HDMI maybe they could at least provide an 8 shooter to simplify access to 7.1 material from Blu-ray players.

Absolutely true. Another truth is that the Six Shooter will sound better than Theta's proposed upgrade which has no room correction. Most guys,however, do not want to have to deal with all of the analog cables. HDMI has caused some companies to get out of the analog cable business. I have two Six Shooters, because I knew any upgrades would be slow. What is happening here however is past just slow.

Bulldogger,
I have been considering sueing Theta. I bought my CBIII in 2005.

That was before they announced a planned HDMI upgrade. Also not sure but you may have had to have made the purchase since ATI purchased the company. You would need to be able to maintain that you purchased the processor with the expectation that it would be upgraded to the new formats clearly posted on Theta's website. The price tag places it out of most small claims court. I love small claims. The last company I sued was UPS.

While I'm as disappointed with Theta's HDMI progress as the rest of the forum, I'm sitting here listening to a new Japanese import copy of Graceland and reflecting on just exactly how good the CB III with Extreme DACs is. I think that the real reason that we are as disappointed as we seem to be is that the promise of high resolution coupled with the Theta sound quality is just too tough to let go.

My guess is that as much as we want the HDMI interface, ATI/Theta wants it more. It has to be in ATI's interest to get this capability to market as soon as possible; so I remain cautiously optimistic that HDMI is just over the next hill.

While my CB I was of '98 vintage, for whatever trivia that is worth, and was upgraded to a III in '04, I believe any of us oldtimers (I even resemble the remark) when asked would have told anyone buying Theta in anticipation of an upgrade to wait till it was shipping. Broken promises have been the track record pretty much from the beginning. The sound was the only reason to play their game.

If you think you have a case and can collect on their broken promises and hot air by all means go for it. Assuming enough of you win maybe it will even instill a modicum of corporate responsibility. There was a hope that ATI would do this in their own self interest. I don't consider myself a candidate for any suite figuring I've got what I paid for.

And Bulldogger is quite right. If you can put up with all the cables and having to buy a player with decent DACs the SixShooter is an excellent multi-channel line stage.

[QUOTE=thebland;17162450.. Though the Simaudio appears to be a new light.[/QUOTE]

I must just be too much of a purist but the FM/AM tuner thing is just a cold shower with the Simaudio piece.

While I'm as disappointed with Theta's HDMI progress as the rest of the forum, I'm sitting here listening to a new Japanese import copy of Graceland and reflecting on just exactly how good the CB III with Extreme DACs is. I think that the real reason that we are as disappointed as we seem to be is that the promise of high resolution coupled with the Theta sound quality is just too tough to let go.

My guess is that as much as we want the HDMI interface, ATI/Theta wants it more. It has to be in ATI's interest to get this capability to market as soon as possible; so I remain cautiously optimistic that HDMI is just over the next hill.

I tend to agree. I stoped by the Theta booth also and saw the prototype unit with the Complii BD player. It looked good. Took some photos also. I could've sworn Carl told me that January was the target date for release. Of course that may happen and it may not. Both he and the owner of ATI [whose name I can't remember] seemed to be sweating blood n bullets trying to get this unit to market but I got the sense that they want to make sure they get it right first. His exact words to me were ' we're putting everything we've got into getting this unit right'. For whatever it's worth, it semed like a genuine comment from a company that's really trying, as best as I could tell. If the release looks anything like what I saw at the booth [meager as it was], I think those of us that can hang in there will be glad they did.

I tend to agree. I stoped by the Theta booth also and saw the prototype unit with the Complii BD player. It looked good. Took some photos also. I could've sworn Carl told me that January was the target date for release. Of course that may happen and it may not. Both he and the owner of ATI [whose name I can't remember] seemed to be sweating blood n bullets trying to get this unit to market but I got the sense that they want to make sure they get it right first. His exact words to me were ' we're putting everything we've got into getting this unit right'. For whatever it's worth, it semed like a genuine comment from a company that's really trying, as best as I could tell. If the release looks anything like what I saw at the booth [meager as it was], I think those of us that can hang in there will be glad they did. Companies like Mcintosh did not show at all. I will give them credit for that no matter how meager the showing was. What is needed in more transparency. Theta owners have got to be one of the most loyal groups. I think if everyone knew the challenges that were being faced, there would be more patience.

Companies like Mcintosh did not show at all. I will give them credit for that no matter how meager the showing was. What is needed in more transparency. Theta owners have got to be one of the most loyal groups. I think if everyone knew the challenges that were being faced, there would be more patience.


My good friend, are you having hot and cold flashes? One post you are disgusted with Theta and saying goodbye that you would never buy anything from them again, and now you are being gentler, more understanding.

My approach is simple. I have been a Casablanca owner since 1997. I have got my money's worth. I did not buy or upgrade during this HDMI debacle period. I have counseled folks during this HDMI debable period to hold off on buying a Casablanca until the HDMI and upgrade are here and available and not possible vaporware. I have been consistent. And I remain hopeful that the HDMI upgrade will get here.

Any AVS member buying a new CB3 for good $$ in the past few years has ignored oodles of caution from some of us here, Theta luvers but caution nonetheless.

In this economy, even if good intentions, even with the website overhaul re the upcoming HDMI 1.3, hey, until the fat lady sings, nothing is a sure thing, again, in this economy.

Companies like Mcintosh did not show at all. I will give them credit for that no matter how meager the showing was. What is needed in more transparency. Theta owners have got to be one of the most loyal groups. I think if everyone knew the challenges that were being faced, there would be more patience.

D&M Holdings (Denon, Marantz) I understand did not show, either.

My good friend, are you having hot and cold flashes? One post you are disgusted with Theta and saying goodbye that you would never buy anything from them again, and now you are being gentler, more understanding.



Just trying to be fair. FRACK THETA. I will never buy another one of their products. How's that for consistency. I decided that I was being a little too harsh. But ya know you are right. You would have to be a fool to continue to buy from this company. And as much as you tried to get me to buy Theta amps, I had stopped buying stuff from the company even when Sinclair was there. The prices of those amps dropped like a boat anchors. Bet a lot of guys are not too happy that have all Theta electronics. I did not follow you on that and there was a reason. I never buy all of my stuff from one company. Never.

I got a phenomenal price on my Theta Enterprise monoblocks and they are wonderful. Not saying I would have bought them if it was close to MSRP.

Take me seriously when I say this. I am not joking. If the statue of limitation is not up from the time you purchased it, you could sue Theta for the false claim on their website . Actually a certain attorney advised me nearly ten year ago now, that I could sue a company in small claims court for their false claims. I did not actually do it. However, I passed this information on to another owner who did sue in small claims court. The processor we owned cost 5k at the time. You can not bluff you have to actually file suit . He was able to recoup most of his money. The company sent a refund to the dealer. The problem was the dealer. He put up a fight about giving up the profit that he made from the sale and did not seem to want to settle. It's been years now and I do not know if the guy was ever successful with getting the rest of his money back from the dealer. Theta has the HDMI upgrade posted on their website. You can take them to court and win if the legal conditons, like statue of limits, are met. I remember this guy being very happy about the 3k he recovered.

Wow. Of all people--(except one, Steve ;))--Bulldogger has finally smelled the coffee with Theta. I'm sure that the Sinclairs are sipping a cocktail somewhere, muttering "say it ain't so." Nonetheless, I give Bulldogger credit for at least recognizing what seemed painfully obvious to those like me, who didn't have a stake in it. So let's talk a bit further on this.

At what point do Theta owners stop waiting and say "this game has been played long enough?" It's almost cruel, as you are kept dangling with these "just wait a bit longer" statements, while products have come and gone all around you.

Some of the delay is certainly associated with the very-changed face of The High End, which, in my mind, has been pretty redefined. While Lexicon and Meridian have sort of answered the bell, it's only been bandaids, but at least it's been something. Krell has a new high end piece out, but one wonders about the value offered by a $30,000 piece. Traditional mid-fi pieces have assumed dominance in the A/V pre-pro game, and, frankly, I don't see a time when the old days will ever return.

The perverse part is that we just want the market to offer a piece that costs more than what is now available, because we still associate cost with quality. By the way, that is not entirely a wrong assumption, for those who want to jump on that statement. In the very recent past, the best equipment did have a significant price premium, but that has now been changed.

So now we have Theta, still promising some of that old-world superiority, but, viewed objectively, offering more Frankenstein-monster-adjustments to an old piece, and continuing to size up the market for it as they go along. If there was nothing definite offered at CEDIA, just ask yourselves how ludicrous it would be to expect a software update at CES--well over ten years after the piece has been released, at a show that should clearly be second fiddle to CEDIA, where nothing was seen.

What do you think? Which way would you bet?

The issue of what constitutes misrepresentation, and by whom, and when, and where, and on, and on . . . these become extremely mired questions for any lawyer to ponder, let alone such issues as the statutue of limitations. Nonetheless, it seems to me that you may want to discuss--in PMs for example--the prospects of pursuing legal action, if only to get Theta to finally put up or shut the f**k up.

I do not believe you have class action stuff here, although I don't know the sales figures for Theta, so it's possible you might. I will tell you that I smelled some serious stench when Evelyn Sinclair was on this forum a few years ago, telling everyone how they weren't going to be among the shortsighted manufacturers, offering only HDMI 1.1. In truth, it now seems certain that the prospect of HDMI 1.3 was only a tantalizing excuse whereby Evelyn could continue to pump the notion of viability into Theta and, of course, all that was being done when Theta was being sold to ATI, which presumably wanted a viable company.

If anyone does take Bulldogger's suggestion seriously, it probably behooves you to talk to a lawyer about doing it on a consolidated basis, perhaps even attempting to get a class certified. Small claims will have serious monetary limits associated with any recovery, and a bunch of clients paying one lawyer, perhaps even on a strict contingency, gives you the much higher ceiling.

At the end of the day, the Thing-Now-Called-Theta should at least give you the decency to tell you to hike onward to a new product. Let Theta get you back the old fashioned way--let Theta earn you back with an actual product, not something that was good in a different time.

Nick :cool:

Theta started exploring and discussing here at AVS the concept of HDMI for the CB3 I think about June 2007. The sale to ATI was Oct-Nov 2007. At some point thereafter ATI-Theta said they would be working on the HDMI upgrade full speed ahead, last CEDIA they demod a static model and eventually earlier this year they updated their website.

The threads with the info you want should all be in the AVS archives.

It is perhaps disingenuous to characterize Evelyn Sinclair's statements as "exploring and discussing here at AVS the concept of HDMI for the CB3." I read them as outright representations designed to induce belief in the notion that Theta would provide HDMI. For example:

We consider it crucial and urgent to get it out before the end of this year.

You may want to monitor the 1.3 progress of the Japanese companies who build moderately priced receivers. At least some, possibly all, received their first prototype chips last October and are trying to get units finished for summer release. If it takes them longer, it likely means there are still some issues to be worked out with 1.3.

We are hearing that we should see the first 1.3 chips in January. From recent experience, I suggest we read this as February. If we start then, we should be able to give you the new processes in the fall. A 1.3 solution would have all of the above features plus it would allow us in some circumstances to do the audio decoding in the processor. At this time, I don't know if we will be able to do this at a higher quality level than the players and satellite receivers, but from past experience, I'll be surprised if we can't find a way to make these formats sound better. It’s not that we do this kind of thing so well but that the big companies tend to do the surrounding circuitry so poorly. Their engineers in China and India don't even know there are users with your standards.

This isn't exploring the possibility of a new concept, or anything like that. This is the language of "it'll be there."

Any defense of Theta, at this point, only hurts its owners, because it indulges Theta in the game they've played both pre-sale and post-sale: Play for Time.

Nick :cool:

Nick, for two years now I've told folks not to buy new CBs unless and until HDMI is implemented. My advise has not changed. Last year, a forum member came over and demod my system. He wanted primarily to hear the CB3. On my recommendation and for his needs he bought an Integra. And he ain't the only one.

I am hopeful that the HDMI upgrade may still come - but until its done that fat lady don't sing.

Regarding misrepresentation, etc., I certainly appreciate how folks feel. If I bought a new CB2 in the past few years relying on such representations I would be royally pissed as well.

Re suing Thet Digital - many local jurisdictions have justice or small claims courts for amounts under $10,000, sometimes less.

ATI purchased the assets of Theta Digital - if you're legal claim is against the old Theta Digital, the claim may not run against the new entity. Nick, I do injury law, you may have more knowledge on this particular subject.

Theta may still come through on this. But it is very questionable and has been handled very, very badly. If I were not so invested in Theta having a CB3 with Xtreme DACs and Six Shooter I would have no interest in considering Theta in the future at all. Theta has a very long way to go to continue as a viable, high end entity - indeed, it is very questionable that this will occur.

The viability of high end home theater is indeed questionable. And with Denon and Integra/Onkyo surround processing and the Oppo Blu Ray player, to what extent is the markup of the boutique companies really giving us anything anymore???

Mebbe what we need is simply a Pioneer 09 or hot rodded Oppo Blu Ray player,
a Six Shooter quality multi-channel analog preamp/switcher, and add a fantastic
two channel CD player/DAC combo like the PS Auudio PowerWave Transport and
DAC!

I took Steve's advice months ago and sold my CB and purchased an Onkyo 885 (same as Integra 9.8) with full one year warranty from Onkyo web site for $500. I don't use it for anything but movies/TV and use a stand alone preamp for my two channel. Could not be happier. A steal at three times the price. And for another $700 purchased Audyssey Pro for truly spectacular (at this price point) integration of my speakers/subs/time alignment.

I agree with those who have commented about the total lack of transparency by ATI/Theta. I think they are hoping not everyone abandons ship and runs to a competitive product. It is sort of like most restaurants always tell you the wait is 20 minutes even if they know it is 45. Thetas lack of being up front insured that I will never buy from them again. And I have owned LOTS of Theta products.

"I got a phenomenal price on my Theta Enterprise monoblocks and they are wonderful".

So Steve, what did you pay for your amps????

"I got a phenomenal price on my Theta Enterprise monoblocks and they are wonderful".

So Steve, what did you pay for your amps????

This was when Theta was running a 1/2 MSRP sale and lets just sale I pay
dealer cost plus some percent, not MSRP minus some percent. HA! They were a steal at the price and I luv em. Altho they are much better than the Bryston 7Bs that I had, I would not have bought them if I had not got such a great deal. And I think even at half MSRP, they are darn fine amps.

D&M Holdings (Denon, Marantz) I understand did not show, either.That is true and expected. They each arranged press presentations some weeks before CEDIA to show their new stuff.

Bulldogger,

I am not saying that 1.4 is essential TODAY. However, it is coming and it will be useful if one is looking to move to 4K or 3D in the future. If Theta wants to position themselves as "future-proof" coming out with HDMI 1.3x at this point is laughable.

I believe you could work around this by just buying a video switcher and a dual out HMDI blu-ray. I use a monoprice switcher that cost about 50.00. Dual HDMI out blu-ray player. All I really want my surround processor to do is decode the latest formats. HDMI is mess. No company could ever kept current with their latest spec. and any company would go out of business trying.

That is true and expected. They each arranged press presentations some weeks before CEDIA to show their new stuff.

Kal, anything new from Denon to replace their current top line surround processor preamp of which we've had outstanding reports the past two years?

Regarding misrepresentation, etc., I certainly appreciate how folks feel. If I bought a new CB2 in the past few years relying on such representations I would be royally pissed as well.

Re suing Thet Digital - many local jurisdictions have justice or small claims courts for amounts under $10,000, sometimes less.

ATI purchased the assets of Theta Digital - if you're legal claim is against the old Theta Digital, the claim may not run against the new entity. Nick, I do injury law, you may have more knowledge on this particular subject.



A lot depends on whether ATI bought stock or assets (and it would be highly unusual to buy stock, primarily for the very reasons we're discussing this--the liabilities of the former entity survive, and can be pressed against the new entitiy).

Nonetheless, I'm betting that a lot of people have, to some extent, changed a position based on Theta's continued assurances. While I recognize those assurances have all been couched in the kind of language lawyers tell clients never to rely upon, it's funny how we all know that Theta has done everything to assure the public that HDMI will be there--and, in this, I include the new ownership at Theta.

I can pretty much assure anyone that, if they walked into my office tomorrow and showed me letters from Neil Sinclair and the new ownership at ATI, assuring them that HDMI was right around the corner, and not to do anything but wait--I would still tell that client not to waste my time or his money. But a unified approach, where, say, twenty or more Theta owners retain a single counsel might make it cost productive for everyone involved. Enough clients could mean that the lawyer might handle things on a contingency.

Although commercial litigation is up my alley, it's not something I believe I'd have any particular interest in, because it's still hard--though my mind is open. Keep in mind there's another huge factor involved here, i.e., the representations of the Theta's dealer network, and I'm betting that you'll find any number of statements, some outrageously deceptive, some dead on the money, and, keep in mind, the dealer network was presumably reiterating what Theta told them.

Another issue would likely be the quagmire of different laws applying, inasmuch as these units would have been purchased in different states.

I would be happy to discuss this at greater length, in of course a different context, i.e., telephonically. But, at a minimum, if a group of owners took it to Theta from the most leveraged position possible--a lawsuit--Theta would finally put up or shut (the f**k) up.

Good luck. There are a few units out there that can deliver what you want, and they don't rhyme with Beta.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Kal, anything new from Denon to replace their current top line surround processor preamp of which we've had outstanding reports the past two years?No, sorry.

I don't think Denon / Marantz even showed at CEDIA.

I don't think Denon / Marantz even showed at CEDIA.Yeah. As announced well in advance. None of the D&M brands were there (in any official capacity).

Sign of the times...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky
Kal, anything new from Denon to replace their current top line surround processor preamp of which we've had outstanding reports the past two years?

No, sorry.
__________________
Kal Rubinson

I own this piece, and can't fathom any need whatsoever to replace it. It's constantly being updated via internet software upgrade. The only hardware change I can envision is if HDMI 1.4 is necessary, and Denon has in the past upgraded HDMI by way of sending units in (not this unit which has always been HDMI 1.3).

I've been a dyed-in-the-wool high-ender for close to twenty years. When I moved from my beloved Lexicon MC12-HD to this, I did so believing that the state of technology had engulfed the areas in which the high end could formerly distinguish itself. I frankly can't think of a another A/V processor that I'd rather have than this one, cost no object.

I remember first seeing this a couple of years ago at CEDIA, and being dazzled by its feature set. My own experience has been that all of the accolades have been deserved. Perhaps Theta owners should consider this, since you can buy one for not much more than what Theta has been saying the HDMI upgrade would be. Think of this as an intervention.

Nick :cool:

Nick, I think one or two former CB3 owners here have the Denon piece and sing its praises.

Wow. Of all people--(except one, Steve ;))--Bulldogger has finally smelled the coffee with Theta. I'm sure that the Sinclairs are sipping a cocktail somewhere, muttering "say it ain't so." Nonetheless, I give Bulldogger credit for at least recognizing what seemed painfully obvious to those like me, who didn't have a stake in it. So let's talk a bit further on this.

Nick, I agree with you on all points and appreciate your input.

I have read back through the Theta HDMI threads and seen that there were many people who were sceptical of what Evelyn Sinclair was posting (something I dismissed at the time), but it is also clear many Theta owners were very encouraged by it from what was posted. However, of all the contributors to those threads, it looks like I was one of the few who actually went on to buy into the brand based on those posts and the rest of the BS that Theta's machine was pumping out at the time.

At the time, the idea that a company would go to such lengths to assure customers both present and future with what later proved to be nothing more than fabrication, simply never occured to me.

Reading Evelyn's stupid 'Q&A session' makes for some sickening reading for me now.

The worst thing for me is that I bought Theta to try and avoid wasting money! I genuinely believed in the upgradable pitch. :(:o

I must accept ultimate blame of course. Despite the elaborate deception that the Sinclair's deployed (which IMHO must have been on shaky legal ground) at the end of the day I believed them and put my money down.

I like the rest of the Theta cognoscenti had real hopes when the ATI thing was announced, but short of some revelation; it appears to be farce, although I would love to proved wrong.

Send in the clowns.

Sean

Hardware is done- from what I understand. It's up to the software now.

"95% done, it's that last 5% that's the hardest to get right" - The party hired to do the software has the hardware and is working on it now.

It's not all doom and gloom.

Dan

I would imagine the hardware is the simple thing... Software, the bugs, HDCp, etc... that's the problematic part. Hopefully it is out fast and for the long delay, a price slash might add some good will towards Theta from the patient owners..

Hardware is done- from what I understand. It's up to the software now.

"95% done, it's that last 5% that's the hardest to get right" - The party hired to do the software has the hardware and is working on it now.

It's not all doom and gloom.

Dan

Hi Dan,

Pity the reps at CEDIA couldn't have passed this sort of thing on. It has been reported that when questioned about the delay their response has been "it is what it is" though this may have been a unique case.

Where did you hear this info?

Sean

I will tell you that I smelled some serious stench when Evelyn Sinclair was on this forum a few years ago, telling everyone how they weren't going to be among the shortsighted manufacturers, offering only HDMI 1.1. In truth, it now seems certain that the prospect of HDMI 1.3 was only a tantalizing excuse whereby Evelyn could continue to pump the notion of viability into Theta and, of course, all that was being done when Theta was being sold to ATI, which presumably wanted a viable company.

Nick, thanks for the level-headed analysis. In hindsight, 1.1 isn't as bad as Evelyn had made it out to be. There're at least one or two companies out there still using 1.1 and supporting everything you could want with BD, including 1080p24 and 7.1 PCM inputs.

One can draw a couple of conclusions from this: yours above where 1.3 was just a stalling tactic, and Theta doing a pretty incompetent job of product marketing if they thought 1.3 was necessary.

That last bit actually speaks volumes about how little they understood or cared about their core audience: stranding all these loyal customers who had paid major $$$ to get Extreme DACs and other unique-to-Theta digital features with no way to use them with the latest formats. They should have immediately implemented 1.1 so that their customers could continue to get the most out of their boxes.

--Andre

Nick, thanks for the level-headed analysis. In hindsight, 1.1 isn't as bad as Evelyn had made it out to be. There're at least one or two companies out there still using 1.1 and supporting everything you could want with BD, including 1080p24 and 7.1 PCM inputs.
--Andre

Funny you mention this... Here is an oldey (but goody) from Evelyn Sinclair of Theta when I asked her why she was so sure that HDMI was the only way to do this when HDMI 1.2 was stable and readily available??? (March 2007):






Evelyn,

Frankly, for what folks pay for a THeta, a $2K to $3K interim solution [HDMI 1.2] seems like a good thing as it will keep its owners ahead of the crowd...

Jeff




I appears that Jeff -- the avowed non-Theta-owner has voted for people who ARE Theta owners to spend their money twice, but that actual Theta owners are not quite as eager.

Is there anyone who really wants us to focus on a bang-up 1.2 version and then ignore 1.3??? Or do they want it so bad now that they want it twice? Those really seem to be the choices. I think, Jeff, you are the only one I saw who wants to see the double whammy, and you bought Halcro, and are admirably helping them through their beta testing.

I trust that we are still talking about a time frame that says waiting for the finished version of the HDMI standard adds, from what we were told, approximately 3 months to the time-table.

We seriously don't want it to cost the whole 2- 3 thousand dollars Jeff is advocating. Then another 2-3 thousand for a "Final Solution" when we can work with what we think of as the finished HDMI product.

If we have to solve the problem twice it will double the R & D costs, in addition to slowing down the team from getting a finished (1.3) product to market.


In a year I don't think anybody's going to want to spend money on anything that's not 1.3, whether it is any better or not. It will be outdated. So we do have to do the 1.3 project, whether we stop and spend a lot of R&D time and money to bring you an interim solution.

Cheers,

Evelyn

Hardware is done- from what I understand. It's up to the software now.

"95% done, it's that last 5% that's the hardest to get right" - The party hired to do the software has the hardware and is working on it now.

Dan

I believe you Dan...however,

In my own first post, in my own ''Theta Digital Casablanca To Have HDMI'' thread from Sept. 2008, I stated that very same thing ''The hardware is reportedly ready, software is being readied by 'MOMENTUM DATA SYSTEMS INC. of Fountain Valley, CA., which is a high end provider to the industry''. This last 5% is real mother if that ''is what it is'' to use the infamous quote from this years show.

At least pics from this years show of the CBIII depict a new power supply, so maybe this time it's true if they say the hardware is ready. I guess the blame for the delay rests squarely on MOMENTUM DATA SYSTEMS.
Pardon my sarcasm, certainly the delay has not been your fault.

I get my info from the horse's mouth- I've said it before; because of my personal relationship with the powers that be, I'm told what's going on. Sure, it may take some prodding, but I get the story. Sometimes I have to keep my mouth shut, sometimes I can speak freely here. You guys have to fully realize that there are direct repercussions to everything posted here by people in the industry-- everyone reads this site, whether they'll admit it or not.

It didn't hurt that I walked-up while the guys that worked on the hardware of the card were in the booth.


-------------------------disclaimer-----------------------------------------------
I think I have a reputation around here for being a pretty straight-shooter, and to my recollection I've never misled anyone here. So take this following statement for what it's worth:

When you (consumers) hear from Carl or Mike Pontell that Theta is doing the best they can, or that they are moving forward with 100% effort towards HDMI,

YOU ARE BEING TOLD THE TRUTH!!

There is no Theta conspiracy, they are not trying to mislead anyone intentionally, and you are not being kept in the dark (purposely....of all details). You don't need to know every little detail of the progress, and the situation at Theta is more complex than you realize, this causes some of the delay- other delays are in the fact that the Casa is 13 years old!!! That's a long collection of bits and bobs from alot of different parties to have to work with.

Dan

I get my info from the horse's mouth- I've said it before; because of my personal relationship with the powers that be, I'm told what's going on. Sure, it may take some prodding, but I get the story. Sometimes I have to keep my mouth shut, sometimes I can speak freely here. You guys have to fully realize that there are direct repercussions to everything posted here by people in the industry-- everyone reads this site, whether they'll admit it or not.

It didn't hurt that I walked-up while the guys that worked on the hardware of the card were in the booth.

Horse's mouth or not (and I've resisted the temptation to suggest--not from you--another orifice of the horse ;)), how meaningful is it when the previous poster reminds everyone that this 95% done business is what he heard nearly two years ago?

Secondly, let us be candid. Whether these are straight-shooters or not, you nonetheless served as yet another conduit to an excuse that, regardless of its potential truth, only serves to communicate the same old message: Hang On, Theta Owners.

Are you suggesting that, due to your relationship with the powers-that-be, you would leak news that Theta had failed, even if your connections urged you not to? I'm not questioning your motives or integrity at all, but you have to appreciate that it may seem coincidental to Theta-Waitas (Copyright, Me) that your inside scoop suggests that--surprise!--Theta is working hard at things, and release is "imminent" (I realize you didn't use that word--but remember, you delivered the 95-5% equation. I merely paraphrase). Where have we heard that before?

If it's like you say, then Theta should have the ethics and the balls to get on this very thread and deliver a frank assessment. If the one they leaked through you is what they want to say, they should stand up to examination over it.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

how meaningful is it when the previous poster reminds everyone that this 95% done business is what he heard nearly two years ago?

Thanks,

Nick :cool:



Let's try to at least be fair and not totally exaggerate things.
What I posted about hardware being ready is not even quite 1 year old, let alone two.

Let's try to at least be fair and not totally exaggerate things.
What I posted about hardware being ready is not even quite 1 year old, let alone two.

Sorry, I missed the "September" part of the 2008 reference.

That said, Evelyn Sinclair's posts ocurred as early as 2007. I certainly read them to be promising HDMI back then. Did you read her posts differently?

So, okay . . . you heard the hardware ready thing a year ago, not two. Does that change anything?

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Nick,

I don't work for Theta, I don't work for ATI- but I'm seeing what this Theta thing is doing to friends of mine (stress) and I'm trying to do my best to buffer it if I can. Theta/ATI will not come on the forums- they know they'll get decimated. You might get Carl on here, but last I knew Carl was the tech support guy- not the decision maker at Theta.
I'm not sure how to react to your third paragraph; because the way I see it- Theta isn't relevant anymore NOW, HDMI is too little too late. So for you to insinuate anything regarding me or my motives is completely off base. I'm not directed by anyone regarding this- so consider this my warning that you crossed a line with that comment.
If people are so pissed at Theta, don't buy the product. But realize that these are real people that work there, not some faceless corporation.

You know, on second thought, f- it

I'm done with this whole subject.

Dan --

Without telling us avg customers details we don't need to know, why is it that they can't level with us -- is there an explanation for the lousy PR handling? Don't see how coming clean on many points would reveal anything to the competition, most of whom
have HDMI out anyway. In short, outside of deep tech info, why the secrecy at this point? It's nonsensical.

Nick,

I don't work for Theta, I don't work for ATI- but I'm seeing what this Theta thing is doing to friends of mine (stress) and I'm trying to do my best to buffer it if I can. Theta/ATI will not come on the forums- they know they'll get decimated. You might get Carl on here, but last I knew Carl was the tech support guy- not the decision maker at Theta.
I'm not sure how to react to your third paragraph; because the way I see it- Theta isn't relevant anymore NOW, HDMI is too little too late. So for you to insinuate anything regarding me or my motives is completely off base. I'm not directed by anyone regarding this- so consider this my warning that you crossed a line with that comment.
If people are so pissed at Theta, don't buy the product. But realize that these are real people that work there, not some faceless corporation.

You know, on second thought, f- it

I'm done with this whole subject.


Well, Dan, I certainly didn't intend to offend, and I explicitly said that I wasn't challenging your integrity. What I said was that you were being a conduit of an all-too-famililar message--and you were--and now you retort by saying the people at Theta will get their feelings hurt if they come on the forum to say for themselves what they had you say? Please, give me a break.

As for crossing lines, and your last two paragraphs, give me an even bigger break. If you want to funnell messages purporting to be from the horse's mouth--your words--then stand up to the scrutiny you've invited. Or were we supposed to only say nice things, because you're not nameless and faceless corporations?

Sorry you took offense.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

I bought my Casablanca new in 1999. I have it upgraded to III with one extreme dac. I am disappointed at the most recent news, but I'm not going to panic and put my unit on Audiogon for peanuts. I am more than happy with cd play and audio from my hidef DVR's. Yes I would like to hear the new formats when I watch Blu-rays, but I guess I can't have everything.

I am willing to wait another year before I do anything drastic. I am currently waiting on a major upgrade of my DNA-2 from SMc audio, so that will have to do (apparently) for this year. In another year either Theta will have the new codecs or be close to out of business. Then I can decide what to do.

I would however not be interested in any Theta transport. I had a lot of money in a David which died after they stopped supporting the product. Yes, their customer service and PR could be a lot better, but on the whole I have been happy with my Casablanca purchase.

Hey, I give the info I have that's all I'm not trying to be a conduit. People around here get pissed at Theta and the lack of info. When I have that info I come forward with it (as long as I can be certain that it won't get anyone in trouble).

I reread your post and should admit that I misread it the first time - sorry, I think I skipped a couple words.

As far as the message is concerned, it's not mine.

Much of the concerns you guys express shouldn't be between you and the factory, but rather through your dealer. There are proper channels to route these concerns through.

I'm not worried about hurt feelings, more like a heart attack- my issue though, not yours.

Dan

"When you (consumers) hear from Carl or Mike Pontell that Theta is doing the best they can, or that they are moving forward with 100% effort towards HDMI,

YOU ARE BEING TOLD THE TRUTH!! "

If they were putting 100% of their resources into HDMI they wouldn't have anything left over to develop any other products.

They have developed other products....

Shawn

effort and resources are not the same words. I try to choose my words very carefully, I knew there was work on other proucts, so for me to say resources would have been untrue. However they really are giving 100% effort to bring this card to fruition.

Dan

So now we have Theta, still promising some of that old-world superiority, but, viewed objectively, offering more Frankenstein-monster-adjustments to an old piece, and continuing to size up the market for it as they go along.

I do not think that part is really true. If you talk to companies that design these things, the Casablanca would cost a fortune to design and build now from scratch. Even though the parts are older, it's still better built than most of the stuff out there.That is what I have been told by some well regarded engineers at other companies. The Krell piece for example is the only one I know of that has discrete analog outputs like the CBIII and it cost 30k. I could not afford to get the same build quality in a more current pre-pro. The dacs are still the most expensive ones that Burr-brown sell.

One of the reasons that we never took Lexicon owners like you were seriously is that you had ulterior motives. There is a feud here and to not acknowledge that is, well dishonest. Your taunting, ie 500 bets, is sort of proof of that no?

The Theta CBIII with Xtreme dacs is superior to the Lexicon MC12. If we are going to admit Theta's shortcoming. Let's admit that. I say there is denial on both sides. Theta owners never copped to Theta's shortcoming and few Lexicon owner would admit to the inferior sound. So you will excuse me for not believing your motives are so pure.

effort and resources are not the same words. I try to choose my words very carefully, I knew there was work on other proucts, so for me to say resources would have been untrue. However they really are giving 100% effort to bring this card to fruition.

Dan

Dan, I know you to be a straight shooter. However, some of the effort is going in other directions. I do not think there is anyway around Theta admitting that.

Theta owners have got to be one of the most loyal groups. I think if everyone knew the challenges that were being faced, there would be more patience.
yeah....I thought about that and also talked to them about it. We discussed the possiblity of having them put together a You Tube-like video that would show off the unit and give some information about release dates and so forth. They recieved it well and said they would look into it. We'll see. I also asked if they would be willing to come on the forum and answer a few questions. To that, they also said 'we'll look into it'. Hmmmmm. In all, I got the perception that they are very aware of the disappointment going on in the Theta community. I didn't get the sense that there was any snake oil going on or anything like that. It was more like a small company trying like the blazes to keep up with the big boys and get this thing to market while also keeping the tradition of tunring out nothing but the best. A tall order indeed. And, as you all know, that's a tall order for a small botique firm.

Companies like Mcintosh did not show at all. I will give them credit for that no matter how meager the showing was. What is needed in more transparency.

I mentioned before that their booth was meager but after thinking it through, I don't think it was any different than what I've seen from them in the past. Also, all the other samller outfits were doing the same thing.....at least those that showed up. For instance, I don't recall seeing Halcro or Meridian there. I can't say that they weren't. I just don't recall seeing them. At least Theta showed up, was in the main hall, at the front of their row, and very easy to locate. All the Theta equipment was displayed well and the prototype was displayed so that you could see the front as well as the back of the units. The owner of the company was there interacting with anyone that came up and answering what question he could answer. Yes, it would have been nicer had the units been in one of the theater rooms but there you go.

I don't know guys. we are where we are. Are they late? Absolutely! You could even argue that they are REALLY late. But what do you want? It's not unusual for a small company to target a release date [ okay several release dates...] only to find that they are just not ready. So you picks your poison. We've waited this long. Perhaps we can wait a little longer. As to the question of how long. Clearly the answer is 'as long as it takes to gte it right'. Ultimately, I think that's what we all want.

Clearly the answer is 'as long as it takes to gte it right'. Ultimately, I think that's what we all want.

'Don't you think some Theta owners might put their fist through their computer screens after reading that old cliche'??:o (Evelyn tried that one as well in '07).

I took a video of the unit alomg wiht some photos. I'll post them as soon as I figure out how.

'Don't you think some Theta owners might put their fist through their computer screens after reading that old cliche'??:o (Evelyn tried that one as well in '07).

I understand Jeff. Just giving you what I got.

I understand Jeff. Just giving you what I got.

I see... You have to almost admire how they can lie directly to your face without even the smallest of smirks.

I see... You have to almost admire how they can lie directly to your face without even the smallest of smirks.

I just don't get into pissing contests. I've given you my impressions and I'll leave it at that. You're free to do with it as you please.

If you've seen my posts, I just don't get into pissing contests. I've given you my impressions and I'll leave it at that. You're free to do with it as you please.

Ditto. Just calling a spade a spade.

And remember, I look at this as a soap opera. Entertaining, fun and completely unrealistic.

Ditto. Just calling a spade a spade.

And remember, I look at this as a soap opera. Entertaining, fun and completely unrealistic.

as do i. Thanks for that. BTW, what do you know about Fume Blanc?

It was more like a small company trying like the blazes to keep up with the big boys and get this thing to market while also keeping the tradition of tunring out nothing but the best. A tall order indeed. And, as you all know, that's a tall order for a small botique firm.



Are they late? Absolutely! You could even argue that they are REALLY late. But what do you want? It's not unusual for a small company to target a release date [ okay several release dates...] only to find that they are just not ready. So you picks your poison. We've waited this long. Perhaps we can wait a little longer. As to the question of how long. Clearly the answer is 'as long as it takes to gte it right'. Ultimately, I think that's what we all want.
I do not think this to be the case. I believe some deception took place. It is my belief that Theta fired the chief engineer. Then ran around like the proverbial headless chicken and then got him back. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1220445442&read&keyw&zztheta

I do not think this to be the case. I believe some deception took place. It is my belief that Theta fired the chief engineer. Then ran around like the proverbial headless chicken and then got him back. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1220445442&read&keyw&zztheta

yeah, I know. As you well know, that's not unusual in this business. And he's back now. So whadyawannado?

yeah, I know. As you well know, that's not unusual in this business. And he's back now. So whadyawannado?

Boycott all Theta products that may be released, amps, blu-ray players until the HDMI upgrade is released.

okay.....that's an option :>) BTW, your boomer ethos is pouring all over your comment. Nice to see :>)

Boycott all Theta products that may be released, amps, blu-ray players until the HDMI upgrade is released.

I think for long time Theta luvers and CB3 owners, at this point, its not a boycott, its just not buyin' into any more until we see HDMI 1.3 workin'.
I've been there since Theta sold to ATI anyway.

One of the reasons that we never took Lexicon owners like you were seriously is that you had ulterior motives. There is a feud here and to not acknowledge that is, well dishonest. Your taunting, ie 500 bets, is sort of proof of that no?

You should be glad you never took me up on my bets. You'd be out $500.

The Theta CBIII with Xtreme dacs is superior to the Lexicon MC12. If we are going to admit Theta's shortcoming. Let's admit that. I say there is denial on both sides. Theta owners never copped to Theta's shortcoming and few Lexicon owner would admit to the inferior sound. So you will excuse me for not believing your motives are so pure.

And so what kind of babble is that? "My Theta is better than your Lexicon was?" By what standards? I won't ever get into the subjective debate that you crave, because it is so pointless.

What you disliked about the Lexicon group was that they stuck to objective criterion, when all you wanted to gush about was the drivel that made no sense, i.e., how the golden ears of those rareified few chose Theta, and you happened to be among them. Even now, when you vacillate from calling Theta something pejorative, to your little spree in the above post, you still haven't purged yourself of that need to offer homage to the god, Theta.

Sounds like the A/V version of Stockholm Syndrome. With time, there is hope.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

You should be glad you never took me up on my bets. You'd be out $500.



And so what kind of babble is that? "My Theta is better than your Lexicon was?" By what standards? I won't ever get into the subjective debate that you crave, because it is so pointless.

What you disliked about the Lexicon group was that they stuck to objective criterion, when all you wanted to gush about was the drivel that made no sense, i.e., how the golden ears of those rareified few chose Theta, and you happened to be among them. Even now, when you vacillate from calling Theta something pejorative, to your little spree in the above post, you still haven't purged yourself of that need to offer homage to the god, Theta.

Sounds like the A/V version of Stockholm Syndrome. With time, there is hope.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Exactly what are we talking about here? We are talking about visual and auditory senses are we not? Of course there is a subjective assessment, which is why I do not like Lexicon.Even now you will not admit that the Denon sounds better than the Lexicon, you were so obsessed with that brand. You all do not get to decide what criteria Theta owners use. We chose to use sound quality not the criteria of a bunch of geeks mostly who do not even own high-end audio systems. As they do not own high-end systems, all they can do is quote objective measurements. Stick with something you know about, law. The psychological analogy is a gross misrepresentation and shows ignorance. You are not trying to help any Theta owners here. It's the same stuff you always peddle. Go away. You will not make any money here. You are the last lawyer any Theta owners would use.

rs, at this point, its not a boycott, its just not buyin' into any more until we see HDMI 1.3 workin'.
I've been there since Theta sold to ATI anyway.
Speak for yourself. I say BOYCOTT any and all high-end companies who behave in this manner.

How does one define a high-end company?

1. They charge a lot for their products.
2. Their products are finicky, i.e. does not always work
3. They take a long time to upgrade to the latest audio standards claiming how difficult the process is to achieve perfection in spite of far "lower-end" companies having already produced fully operational products. That is they keep re-inventing the wheel claiming a better wheel.
4. They have high margins for their dealers to ensure there is a reasonable number of fan boys touting the superiority of their products (see point 1).

OK, I will admit not all are like 1-4 above but a surprising many are.

Exactly what are we talking about here? We are talking about visual and auditory senses are we not? Of course there is a subjective assessment, which is why I do not like Lexicon.Even now you will not admit that the Denon sounds better than the Lexicon, you were so obsessed with that brand. You all do not get to decide what criteria Theta owners use. We chose to use sound quality not the criteria of a bunch of geeks mostly who do not even own high-end audio systems. As they do not own high-end systems, all they can do is quote objective measurements. Stick with something you know about, law. The psychological analogy is a gross misrepresentation and shows ignorance. You are not trying to help any Theta owners here. It's the same stuff you always peddle. Go away. You will not make any money here. You are the last lawyer any Theta owners would use.

Hmmm. Bulldogger, or whatever your name is, you were the first one to raise the legal option, spouting off some business about small claims court, and what you knew, and blah, blah, blah, and I responded to that. The most I ever said was that I would talk to someone on the phone about it, after mentioning that I was likely not interested in it.

Instead, using the same forceful rhetoric and logic that has characterized every one of your posts about your toys being better, you again name-drop your arguments, and suggest that I'm looking for business. Let's get it straight, B-digger. This particular controversy started when I called you on your irrational defense of Theta, particularly over the issue of HDMI, and I offered you the honorable opportunity of putting up your money, or shutting up. Well, you've obviously not stopped talking, but, then again, you never did put up a nickel, did you?

Sorry. You lacked the courage of your convictions.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Moderator

let's limit the posts to technical issues please

I think for long time Theta luvers and CB3 owners, at this point, its not a boycott, its just not buyin' into any more until we see HDMI 1.3 workin'.
I've been there since Theta sold to ATI anyway.

I don't know if this is a red letter day or not. Steve and I agree completely.

Is HA copyrighted? :D

Les, I don't recall you and I ever having a disagreement?

HE! HA!

Steve,
True, I can't really recall one either. But an engineer and a lawyer agreeing on something? Surely worthy of note somehow or other. Besides this thread was getting to gloomy.

I'm rather disappointed in the way ATI-Theta is handling things too, but wait and see was the only real, viable option out there. Small high end companies have always been a bit flakey and Theta worse than most. About the only difference for me this time is that the performance vs cost will make them have to beat out the competition as the upgrade will cost me as much as many of the possible alternatives this time. When there's hardware shipping then we'll see how it all stacks up.

I offered you the honorable opportunity of putting up your money, or shutting up. Well, you've obviously not stopped talking, but, then again, you never did put up a nickel, did you?

Sorry. You lacked the courage of your convictions.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Sorry I don't gamble much. It has nothing to do with your bet or my courage. If you devised some other sort of test of courage, I could take you up on that;). Why don't YOU personally offers some technical reasons as to back up your claims about Theta's CBIII technical inferiority vs the parts selection in other processors. Here's my submission. (1). Only processor costing much more than the Casablanca feature discrete analog outs. (2). The capacitors that Theta uses, the Muse Nichicon are still current caps http://www.minisemi.com/Nichicon%20Muse%20capacitors.html. Please ask any audio engineers how these caps compare to others. I believe you will find that are still considered state of the art. (3). The PCM1704 dac is still current and the most expensive that TI sells. http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?N=4294759686&Keyword=PCM1704U You can debate as to why it would be THE MOST expensive dac in the line up even though some of the other dacs have better published specs. I know what I was told, for this application it still the best dac because of the design, sign magnitude. Now the DSP chips in the Casablanca are outdated. The new board would have to have more processing power, MIPS than what Theta has. That would have to be included in any upgrade. The core parts of the Casablanca are still current production parts and the much more expensive than any of the processor in the 10k or so price range.


You can debate how much of a correlation there is between prices and performance or attack why these companies might prices some components higher than others. However, the CBIII still has some of the most expensive and parts that these vendors who sells these parts consider some of their best. You can attack the vendors but all are free to believe what they wish. Most of the parts in the CBIII are still current in spite of claims to the contrary. Nick called me out. Let him defend this.

Sorry I don't gamble much. It has nothing to do with your bet or my courage. If you devised some other sort of test of courage, I could take you up on that;). Why don't YOU personally offers some technical reasons as to back up your claims about Theta's CBIII technical inferiority vs the parts selection in other processors. Here's my submission. (1). Only processor costing much more than the Casablanca feature discrete analog outs. (2). The capacitors that Theta uses, the Muse Nichicon are still current caps http://www.minisemi.com/Nichicon%20Muse%20capacitors.html. Please ask any audio engineers how these caps compare to others. I believe you will find that are still considered state of the art. (3). The PCM1704 dac is still current and the most expensive that TI sells. http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?N=4294759686&Keyword=PCM1704U You can debate as to why it would be THE MOST expensive dac in the line up even though some of the other dacs have better published specs. I know what I was told, for this application it still the best dac because of the design, sign magnitude. Now the DSP chips in the Casablanca are outdated. The new board would have to have more processing power, MIPS than what Theta has. That would have to be included in any upgrade. The core parts of the Casablanca are still current production parts and the much more expensive than any of the processor in the 10k or so price range.


You can debate how much of a correlation there is between prices and performance or attack why these companies might prices some components higher than others. However, the CBIII still has some of the most expensive and parts that these vendors who sells these parts consider some of their best. You can attack the vendors but all are free to believe what they wish. Most of the parts in the CBIII are still current in spite of claims to the contrary. Nick called me out. Let him defend this.

As you correctly pointed out earlier, I'm an attorney, not a designer of Audio/Video gear. For that reason, I've never said a word about the "technical inferiority" of Theta's parts whatsoever. Nor do I intend to now, since I won't pretend for a minute that I'm competent to address that subject. From what I've read of your posts, you certainly don't inspire confidence in your judgment on the subject, either.

Nor did I say that the Theta sounded badly. My only comment on the sound quality of the Theta was based on my singular experience in auditioning it many years ago, and chose the Proceed PAV/PDSD instead. Whether the Theta then progressed to better sound through its different DACs I neither knew nor cared about. The Proceed sounded better to my ears when I auditioned them, and chose it. Ultimately, after a sojourn to Krell, I landed with Lexicon, and that sounded best to my ears. The only reason I've moved to the superb Denon A/V preamp is because I felt that the Lexicon was in danger of becoming what Theta had become for several years--irrelevant. To its credit, Lexicon has offered yet another update to the MC12HD, and it frankly lacks nothing from a versatility standpoint that was my primary reason for moving. As I've said before, I don't have net regret in moving to the Denon, because it is such a great piece, but I do have regret. If Lexicon returns with a platform that I think is more flexible, I would have no hesitation in returning.

What you seem to have missed about my earlier posts was the corporate responsibility behind the product. If I became antsy over a perceived standstill in Lexicon's progress, imagine how I'd have felt if I owned a CBIII. Theta arrived with its legendary 6-shooter at just the point in time to effectively declare both DVD-Audio and Multichannel SACD either dead or on life-support, and then engaged in shameless puffery to convince people that HDMI was right around the corner--something that you bought into, and vigorously espoused, for whatever reasons are compelling to you.

Your posts have also continued to betray an equation of money spent with sound quality. You've taken people to task over the brand of speakers they've purchased, and, in this thread as well, once again suggested that people that don't buy the products that are somehow revered in your judgment, well, their opinion doesn't matter. I've not been afraid to spend decent money on equipment, but it's in the worst of taste to trot that out as though it meant something in an ultimate sense. I learned a long time ago, when blind testing three brands--Chateau Latour, Chateau Lafite, and Chateau Montelena--that the most expensive brand didn't taste the best, and buying labels is for saps. I know I've shifted to a different discussion, but I can assure you the analogy works.

I can't tell you how much I don't care about what the individual parts are in the Theta, because of course that's never what I've talked about, and it's disingenuous for you to shift the topic to something like that. My bet was simple: When Evelyn was on these boards cooing you and others to believe in the imminence of HDMI on an old platform, I called bullsh*t on her, and you (and others) once again defended your pet brand. So I took what was being offered as the "likely" time for the arrival of the add-on, doubled that time, and then offered for those who disagreed to put up $500, since everyone was so certain. Frankly, I liked my chances. As it turned out, I could have even laid odds, and I'd have still won. No one wanted to put up a nickel, you included.

Yes, there was a feud that erupted between the Lexicon enthusiasts and the Theta enthusiasts, and all we ever wanted to talk about was objective criterion, and all you ever wanted to talk about was that golden sound that you heard, which was hopelessly subjective. So I'll go on record once again: the Lexicon was the best processor I'd heard, and that was why I bought it. I have not been displeased to move to the Denon, which in some respect equals the Lexicon, but does not surpass it. And yet . . . who really cares what I think about how it sounds. That is pointless discussion, on the par of arguing which song is "better" on the same album, by the same artist.

Believe it or not, there were people that chose Lexicon that could have easily afforded Theta, but, for whatever priorities they ascribed to the purchase of an A/V preamp, sound quality among them, they chose Lexicon. Get over it.

Yes, I'm being silly to waste the time I've invested in this post, but it's after 10pm, and I'm not doing anything anyway. Have fun.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

How does one define a high-end company?

1. They charge a lot for their products.
2. Their products are finicky, i.e. does not always work
3. They take a long time to upgrade to the latest audio standards claiming how difficult the process is to achieve perfection in spite of far "lower-end" companies having already produced fully operational products. That is they keep re-inventing the wheel claiming a better wheel.
4. They have high margins for their dealers to ensure there is a reasonable number of fan boys touting the superiority of their products (see point 1).

OK, I will admit not all are like 1-4 above but a surprising many are.

As regards #4, you are mistaken. Theta margins are equal to or lower than other manufacturers.

As regards #4, you are mistaken. Theta margins are equal to or lower than other manufacturers.

I guess that explains everything here. Poor pricing structure and a company that had to be sold.

I bet bubkus that despite all of the displeasure demonstrated in this thread by loyal too long Theta owners, and the displeasure in this thread by predictable Theta bashers (hi Jeff), that Theta will likely come through and the new HDMI 1.3 CB3 will be available by close of 2010; upgrades are more complex, so who knows how much longer that will take??? This is an educated guess and remaining hope.

The fact that Theta has come out with the Theta Generation VIII DAC v.2
and its Blu Ray player (despite our legit concerns that what do we need to spend big bucks for a Blu Ray player if we have the Oppo and are just using the player as a HDMI transport) says Theta is at least workin' on something.

Since I have a fully stacked CB3 and Six Shooter I lose nothing by being patient and waiting.

The catcalling, etc will continue unless and until the new Theta comes thru here.

Meanwhile, Jeff doesn't recommend that others buy a Halcro SSP new, so he got screwed. HA! HA! And Nick got the best of us all as he is very happy with his Denon and from all reports its a very nice piece.

I bet bubkus that despite all of the displeasure demonstrated in this thread by loyal too long Theta owners, and the displeasure in this thread by predictable Theta bashers (hi Jeff), that Theta will likely come through and the new HDMI 1.3 CB3 will be available by close of 2010; upgrades are more complex, so who knows how much longer that will take??? This is an educated guess and remaining hope.

The fact that Theta has come out with the Theta Generation VIII DAC v.2
and its Blu Ray player (despite our legit concerns that what do we need to spend big bucks for a Blu Ray player if we have the Oppo and are just using the player as a HDMI transport) says Theta is at least workin' on something.

Since I have a fully stacked CB3 and Six Shooter I lose nothing by being patient and waiting.

The catcalling, etc will continue unless and until the new Theta comes thru here.

Meanwhile, Jeff doesn't recommend that others buy a Halcro SSP new, so he got screwed. HA! HA! And Nick got the best of us all as he is very happy with his Denon and from all reports its a very nice piece.

Actually, I didn't get screwed. I got what I bought. I've had HDMI and lossless for almost 3 years. I do hope Theta comes through for Theta folks. Really. But likely, it'll be a full upgrade to a new CB IV (my prediction).

I wish Jeff would give the Denon AVP-A1 a try...would like to see his comments

disclaimer: I have one and love it...[my opinion only]

I wish Jeff would give the Denon AVP-A1 a try...would like to see his comments

disclaimer: I have one and love it...[my opinion only]

Mark,

The Denon is on my short list for sure. Your praises are not the only ones I've read. It sounds like it does everything right and with aplomb. Who knows, while my SSP still has some value, I may try the Denon.

What is the MSRP on it?

Purchased the DTC-9.8 for an incredibly good price. However, the Denon is intriguing as it is also quite inexpensive.

Wondering what is coming out post CES - since Theta will make me wait at least that long. Don't get me wrong, the Theta will be THE piece - when it ships, that is.

Mark,

The Denon is on my short list for sure. Your praises are not the only ones I've read. It sounds like it does everything right and with aplomb. Who knows, while my SSP still has some value, I may try the Denon.

What is the MSRP on it?

$7500@

I have heard good things re the Denon from several folks including one or two prior Theta owners. I have two Denon 2809CIs in two "smaller" systems in our home and the work flawlessly without a hitch,no software hiccups at all, with pretty much everything connected via HDMI. If I didn't have Theta so long, with outstanding Xtreme DACs and the best multi-channel analog preamp Six Shooter by far among surround processors, with the remaining potential still of an HDMI upgrade, then I would seriously consider the Denon.

As you correctly pointed out earlier, I'm an attorney, not a designer of Audio/Video gear. For that reason, I've never said a word about the "technical inferiority" of Theta's parts whatsoever. Nor do I intend to now, since I won't pretend for a minute that I'm competent to address that subject. From what I've read of your posts, you certainly don't inspire confidence in your judgment on the subject, either.



Exactly my point. You can not offer a subjective assessment or an objective assessment. . You have nothing to offer here. My degrees are in psychology and I am not an engineer. However, I ask A LOT of questions. Learned stuff too from many of the engineers who work at these companies. What ever my state of technical knowledge, yours is not even at a sufficient level to refute ANYTHING I have said:D. This was just an attempt to shift this away from personals attacks but you were flaccid in both subjective and objective areas.

the best multi-channel analog preamp Six Shooter by far among surround processors, with the remaining potential still of an HDMI upgrade, then I would seriously consider the Denon.

The catch with the Six Shooter is that the Casablanca sounds better directly connected to the amps, at least that is my experience.

Actually, I didn't get screwed. I got what I bought. I've had HDMI and lossless for almost 3 years. I do hope Theta comes through for Theta folks. Really. But likely, it'll be a full upgrade to a new CB IV (my prediction).

I think you got a fair value considering as how much use you have gotten out of it and at the price you paid. Jeff I do not think there are enough engineers currently at ATI to do a CB IV. My guess is that a lot would have to be outsourced at great expense in a rough economic climate. The surround processor game is a tough one. I remember BAT, Wadia, and Ayre were companies that years back were supposed to market surround processors. If I think hard enough, I sure I can think of a few others. It may have been wise that they did not.

Exactly my point. You can not offer a subjective assessment or an objective assessment. . You have nothing to offer here. My degrees are in psychology and I am not an engineer. However, I ask A LOT of questions. Learned stuff too from many of the engineers who work at these companies. What ever my state of technical knowledge, yours is not even at a sufficient level to refute ANYTHING I have said:D. This was just an attempt to shift this away from personals attacks but you were flaccid in both subjective and objective areas.

Sniff, sniff . . . I guess that pretty much says it, BD.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

The AVP_A1 is highly rated indeed. It would be a great upgrade from the Integra 9.8. I wish I could sell this dust collecting CBIII or trade it in for the Denon...heck I b et I can get more for my Integra 9.8 than for the $12000 CBIII. What a freaking disaster.

Steve,
True, I can't really recall one either. But an engineer and a lawyer agreeing on something? Surely worthy of note somehow or other. Besides this thread was getting to gloomy.

As an Aggie Engineer, I feel the gig'em urge to chime in on this one and happily agree. Well said Les. Ditto to Steve :D

$7500@

I have heard good things re the Denon from several folks including one or two prior Theta owners. I have two Denon 2809CIs in two "smaller" systems in our home and the work flawlessly without a hitch,no software hiccups at all, with pretty much everything connected via HDMI. If I didn't have Theta so long, with outstanding Xtreme DACs and the best multi-channel analog preamp Six Shooter by far among surround processors, with the remaining potential still of an HDMI upgrade, then I would seriously consider the Denon.

There is a tremendous deal on eBay for refurbed units, with a manufacturer's warranty, for about $4500. You can also get one new there for $5500.

At $4500, perhaps some here can take a flyer. It's a means of having everything hooked up to 1 unit, and maybe you can put your Theta on extended leave of absence, pending return if HDMI ever appears. Who knows, you might be pleasantly surprised at what today's technology sounds like.

Repeat after me: Just because it costs less, doesn't mean it's not great. Just because it costs less . . .

Go ahead, Steve B., what is there to lose but your pride? ;) You may not gamble in the conventional sense, but you've got a daring soul . . . you don't even have to give up the Theta.

Expand your mind.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

I think you got a fair value considering as how much use you have gotten out of it and at the price you paid. Jeff I do not think there are enough engineers currently at ATI to do a CB IV. My guess is that a lot would have to be outsourced at great expense in a rough economic climate. The surround processor game is a tough one. I remember BAT, Wadia, and Ayre were companies that years back were supposed to market surround processors. If I think hard enough, I sure I can think of a few others. It may have been wise that they did not.

As to BAT, I do remember them having a shell of what was going to be their tubed processor at the 2002 or 2003 CEDIA. And as you say, it never happened. Hmmmmmm:(

The AVP_A1 is highly rated indeed. It would be a great upgrade from the Integra 9.8. I wish I could sell this dust collecting CBIII or trade it in for the Denon...heck I b et I can get more for my Integra 9.8 than for the $12000 CBIII. What a freaking disaster.

I'll pay you $1200 for it. When the HDMI upgrade comes out, I'll upgrade it and sell it for 100% profit.

Are you serious? That is better than any other offer I received (zero). Let us talk...

I guess that explains everything here. Poor pricing structure and a company that had to be sold.
Jeff, who said anything about a poor pricing structure. I simply said, their dealer pricing was industry standard and fair to both dealer and customer. Regards, Norm

Are you serious? That is better than any other offer I received (zero). Let us talk...

Shumi does your CB3 have Xtreme DACS? Is it in perfect working order? I will gladly consider paying you $1200 for it if so. And are you still in Queen Creek? I'll even drive out and pick it up, so no shipping. HA! HAA! HAW!

I remember back in 2005 you traded in your Casanova with Theta's then upgrade program, was it to L&M Custom in Tempe, then a Theta dealer, for your then CB3, right?

And aren't you the dude who did all the Crestron programming on that deluxe Sounds Like Music store which unfortunately went under a few years back. It was a really state of the art store then and your Crestron programming throughout the store was indeed most remarkable.

Ok so here is the official news.. The Compli Blue is just about ready to ship.. Its expected to ship in the next 3-4 weeks and its awesome..

Its got Theta's Power supplies and chassis and lots of things that make it look better and sound better than any one else's Blue Ray player on the market today.. Well at least that what I think..

As most of you remember the Compli was awesome and we always thought it was the best DVD player on the market and I think the Compli Blue will do the same for Blue Ray..

It uses the Oppo transport and everything else is Thetas and its going to be sweet...

Pricing i can tell you will be 3-4K list and we should have final pricing in the next few days..

Theta's HDMI solution for the Casablanca III is coming along great as well. It was shown working at Cedia and we expect to start CBIII upgrades by years end.. The HDMI solution for the Casablanca III is going to be awesome.. It will be the only US made HDMI solution that i know of..

Theta will have the most amazing Audio Video solutions that are made right here in Southern California and you can bet they will look and sound like Theta has always has delivered !!!

Thanks
CRaig

I wonder if Shumi still feels the same?

Jeff, who said anything about a poor pricing structure. I simply said, their dealer pricing was industry standard and fair to both dealer and customer. Regards, Norm

I did.

Sniff, sniff . . . I guess that pretty much says it, BD.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

I do not even know why you and I are having this discussion. We have more in common than not. I agree with your assessment that the Proceed PAV was better than the CBII Superior dacs. I see your equipment choices and I agree they are very good choices. You mentioned "name dropping." Man my salary is so low compared to many of you here that names like Steve Bruzonsky are big shots too me:D. This is frustrating for me because I can not take the "hit" with a worthless processor, if Theta does not deliver.

I wonder if Shumi still feels the same?

The price of his CBIII just went up.:) Shall I keep on bashing Theta to remain consistent by saying I will believe it when I see it?

I do not even know why you and I are having this discussion. We have more in common than not. I agree with your assessment that the Proceed PAV was better than the CBII Superior dacs. I see your equipment choices and I agree they are very good choices. You mentioned "name dropping." Man my salary is so low compared to many of you here that names like Steve Bruzonsky are big shots too me:D. This is frustrating for me because I can not take the "hit" with a worthless processor, if Theta does not deliver.

You're right. Peace.

For the record, I do hope that Theta delivers, because I'd take no pleasure in seeing fellow enthusiasts take a hit like that.

By the way, Bruzonsky in Yiddish means "big bucks." He will bail out all those who kept the faith, regardless of what happens.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

By the way, Bruzonsky in Yiddish means "big bucks." He will bail out all those who kept the faith, regardless of what happens.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

No way. Bruzonsky in Yiddush means "big bruiser"!!!@@@

PQ isn't very good. I took this with my Blackberry.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oWb5Lxqnb8I&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oWb5Lxqnb8I&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

PQ isn't very good. I took this with my Blackberry.



Thanks. Looks like Theta did actually demo a working prototype. Guess we can end all of the speculation about whether it will actually happen. Great news.

Shumi, where are you???

Had to leave town...no access to Wifi.
Yes, my unit is configured for 8.2 channels and has one extreme card. As far as loyalty to Theta, I go back to 1999 when I purchased a Casanova and a Theta David II from Goodwin's High end in Boston. The Casanova was replaced at least three times for several issues. The David is no longer working as the laser is shut. The CBIII I purchased from L&M also went back twice. It was resposnible for frying several tweeters on my precious Dunlavys. BTW, I have had no issues with the Integra 9.8. I also own two dreadII amps which had to go back once for humming (loose transformers). So, I am done with these guys. Anyone else willing to pay higher than $1200 for the CBIII?

Ebay. I had trouble selling my old CBIII with two Superior cards on a-gon. It sold for 3150.00 on ebay. With the upgrade having progressed more, mention that in your auction. You should be able to get a nice price. You may want to wait until the upgrade is actually shipping. The price will certainly go up a lot then.

Shumi, if we all griped about AV equipment we bought in 2005 and what we can sell it for now on Audiogon in these dour economic times, we could fill the internet with double the useless trash it has today. You bought your CB3 in 2005, before HDMI stuff started coming out for AV receivers or processors. It wasn't even a consideration for you. It was hi times financial for most of us. Now the high times are over and most of us are suffering. Get real! Assuming the HDMI 1.3 upgrade becomes a reality, Theta owners who want to sell will have a much better value re their CB3s than many other folks with similar products. (Though my Theta Compli value ain't much but hey, that's a risk I took when I bought it. Same when I sold my Theta Voyager back in 2005.)

Had to leave town...no access to Wifi.
Yes, my unit is configured for 8.2 channels and has one extreme card. As far as loyalty to Theta, I go back to 1999 when I purchased a Casanova and a Theta David II from Goodwin's High end in Boston. The Casanova was replaced at least three times for several issues. The David is no longer working as the laser is shut. The CBIII I purchased from L&M also went back twice. It was resposnible for frying several tweeters on my precious Dunlavys. BTW, I have had no issues with the Integra 9.8. I also own two dreadII amps which had to go back once for humming (loose transformers). So, I am done with these guys. Anyone else willing to pay higher than $1200 for the CBIII?

I was joking with my post about $1200.00. It is worth more than that. It is a shame we all have to wait even longer. But a working proto-type is encouraging. All equipment will not last forever. Did you lose the tweeters due to pops? I myself have not experienced one problem with my original Dreadnaught or CBIII. I did have a problem with my Casa Nova with the vomit green display drifting which was corrected by adjusting the pot for the VFD. Also I vaguely remember a problem with the Nova using COAX and a Toshiba DVD player. It's been too long to remember what was the problem between the two. There was a workaround with which one powered up first or something like that. I would consider changing, but to who? While the Lex is fine, I want the option between PCM and Bitstream. There is Arcam's AV888 but I'm not certain it would be considered an upgrade. There's ML, but again it's PCM via HDMI, they need to lose the video section and drop the price by 50% in my opinion.

Two I would consider would be the Classe, discussed extensively elsewhere, and one of the ADAs. They make great stuff that rarely gets discussed here because it's marketed to the custom install crowd almost exclusively. Would be particularly interesting if they come through with the promised Trinnov module.

Dave Nauber oversees the Classe processors, a function he performed w/the Proceed AVP/2 -- great pieces in many ways.

Two I would consider would be the Classe, discussed extensively elsewhere, and one of the ADAs. They make great stuff that rarely gets discussed here because it's marketed to the custom install crowd almost exclusively. Would be particularly interesting if they come through with the promised Trinnov module.

Dave Nauber oversees the Classe processors, a function he performed w/the Proceed AVP/2 -- great pieces in many ways. My Proceed AVP was the best value of any of the processors that I have owned. Here's an internal picture, http://s716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/?action=view&current=SSP800MainGut.jpg

I was initially attracted to the Classe as well, because of the former Proceed group. The one glaring omission in the Classe is lack of room correction processing. Am I wrong that it is not offered?

By the way, I would be interested in whether ATI/Theta have discussed anything like room correction as well. I believe an Audyssey standalone unit can be purchased, but, last I looked, it was $2500 MSRP, and ostensibly required an Audyssey-Certified installer to do it (though Kal Rubinson of Stereophile, who posts on AVS, wrote that he was proof you didn't really need the installer).

I have to say--the biggest positive change I ever heard in a processor, was when my former Lexicon MC-12 went from having no room equalization, to having it. It's a fairly radical improvement, and you sometimes need to disabuse yourself of certain listening preferences--preferences you actually derived from learning to like what the room was doing to the sound. However, once you listen to even-familiar music with room eq, you hear things never heard before.

If the Classe has Room EQ, it should be a serious contender. If it can only be attained by purchasing an Audyssey unit standalone, well, that's at least $2500 that should be tacked on to the price of the unit.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

ATI/Theta has dicussed nothing re room correction.

I was initially attracted to the Classe as well, because of the former Proceed group. The one glaring omission in the Classe is lack of room correction processing. Am I wrong that it is not offered?

By the way, I would be interested in whether ATI/Theta have discussed anything like room correction as well.

I have to say--the biggest positive change I ever heard in a processor, was when my former Lexicon MC-12 went from having no room equalization, to having it. It's a fairly radical improvement, and you sometimes need to disabuse yourself of certain listening preferences--preferences you actually derived from learning to like what the room was doing to the sound. However, once you listen to even-familiar music with room eq, you hear things never heard before.

If the Classe has Room EQ, it should be a serious contender.
Thanks,

Nick :cool:

The Classe does have room EQ."Five-band parametric equalization is provided for each of the ten channels to help tune the system to its environment. Classé has elected to offer the system EQ as a manual feature. While several automated systems are available on the market, the complexity of room acoustics guarantees that no automatic system can achieve consistent, optimum results. Our experience is that the best results are obtained by combining measurements with human judgment. The filters used in the EQ are rendered accurately by our processor, which uses floating point arithmetic operating in 64-bit double-precision." Theta and Classe are using the same company for the new formats, Momemtum Data systems. http://s716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/?action=view&current=SSP800-Board3.jpg The board in the Classe is likely the same one that Theta is using but comes in a couple of different version. "The DAE-7A/EQ: C6713 based module for general EQ applications,"apparently is the one Classe is using. http://www.mds.com/products/product.asp?prod=DAE-7 . Theta has made no mention of room correction. The limiting factor seemed to be the power suppy. They have changed the power supply and have the right company's board for it. " I do not know what they will do down the road but I believe the hardware of the CBIII HDMI will be able to support room correction if Theta can get into the 21 Century and offer it. It does depend on which version of the board they are using. You can be sure that soon after the upgrade is shipping, we will either ask Theta or an owner will take one apart so that we can see.

Nick,
I'm not sure Kal is a good example that no one would need an Audyssey installer. He knows a bit to much. I'm sure there's quite a few on this thread that could get by just fine also. Just as I'm also sure that there are folks around who would try and correct a null point in the room acoustics by using the room correction system to simply boost the gain in that range.

No idea if Classe has added the option or not. I rather imagine their website would answer that. It's been a while since I've listened to any of their gear. Thought it sounded quite good but overly polite and a bit sterile for my taste.

I do agree with others here regarding Proceed. Great sounding gear. Very likely would have bought the AVP and PAV before that If I hadn't heard/bought the CB. Sorry to see them go.

Nick,
I'm not sure Kal is a good example that no one would need an Audyssey installer. He knows a bit to much. I'm sure there's quite a few on this thread that could get by just fine also. Just as I'm also sure that there are folks around who would try and correct a null point in the room acoustics by using the room correction system to simply boost the gain in that range.Using the separate Audyssey Sound Equalizer is no more difficult than using AudysseyPro on any AVR or prepro. That said, the skills required for this involve use of a PC but, otherwise, are not significantly difficult that using MultEQ XT. The issue is cost and availability to the end-user.

BTW, the ability to edit the target curves does allow a user to do stupid things but you have make a special effort for that.

My Proceed AVP was the best value of any of the processors that I have owned. Here's an internal picture, http://s716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/?action=view&current=SSP800MainGut.jpg

Loved the AVP from both an SQ and ergonomic standpoint. That little remote did 95% of anything you'd ever need. OSD too. Traded 'up' to a Lexicon MC12B which was a mistake.

If I stick w/the CBIII, I'll probably look at one of those SVS units Kal reviewed that correct below 200Hz or so. Have used Audyssey on my Onkyo 9.8, and used MRC which operates below 200hz in my old Meridian G68 -- I prefer the Meridian-type approach in my room which is acoustically treated.

In bad rooms though full range correction can work really well -- a Tact Mini in front of my ATC active 20s worked wonders in my untreated, acoustic nightmare of a living room.

If I stick w/the CBIII, I'll probably look at one of those SVS units Kal reviewed that correct below 200Hz or so. Have used Audyssey on my Onkyo 9.8, and used MRC which operates below 200hz in my old Meridian G68 -- I prefer the Meridian-type approach in my room which is acoustically treated.
The catch is that the SVS will only EQ the sub and, unless you are crossing over very high, you will not get any correction on the main speakers from the crossover point (80Hz or less) up to the critical (Schroeder) frequency. This is something that MRC takes care of quite well.

...BTW, the ability to edit the target curves does allow a user to do stupid things but you have make a special effort for that.

Which is why I expect they won't sell it even if one will pay the price.

Which is why I expect they won't sell it even if one will pay the price.I do not think so because they had the same restrictions before this option became available. I think the commercial considerations of having a "custom installer" product are substantial.

For what it's worth, room correction ought to be right up there with HDMI as a must have in a processor, particularly a high-end processor. In my view, room correction improves sound quality far more than any other upgrade, or anything that HDMI might be able to deliver.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

The catch is that the SVS will only EQ the sub and, unless you are crossing over very high, you will not get any correction on the main speakers from the crossover point (80Hz or less) up to the critical (Schroeder) frequency. This is something that MRC takes care of quite well.

Yep, missed that.

I do not think so because they had the same restrictions before this option became available. I think the commercial considerations of having a "custom installer" product are substantial.

Could be. Either way it's a non-starter for me as a consequence.

For what it's worth, room correction ought to be right up there with HDMI as a must have in a processor, particularly a high-end processor. In my view, room correction improves sound quality far more than any other upgrade, or anything that HDMI might be able to deliver.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

The impact of room correction suddenly hit me while shopping for new homes. My wife and I sought a compromise. We would not have build a new house and buy an existing home. This would mean that I would have to use the great room as my theater with no acoustical treatments. Knowing the hugh difference the treatments, especially the 25 RPG skylines and ten Waveguide Acoustics diffuser, make, it was a bad decision. My wife decided she could not tolerate the five amps that I have plus all of my other stuff in the great room. In, the end we are building a new home with an upstairs bonus room that is a 30 by 18 with 8 to 9 foot ceiling. I think the ability to do room treatments trounces HDMI, and room EQ. For most guys, however, this may not be possible. In such a case, some sort of bass eq is needed. It would be nice if the processor had room eq. I would suggest sub eq combined with some of the absorption panels that now have artwork on them or even your own personal pictures. "Run game," on the wife. Send a picture of your kids or even her mother or better still of her :D to be imprinted on the absorption panels and then stick that up:D. However we have to face it. It's almost a miracle that a processor this old is getting any upgrades at all.

I have been reading with great interest the many and varied comments on this forum. I would like to start by saying that the rumors of Theta Digital’s demise are greatly exaggerated! (My apologies to Mark Twain). ATI did not purchase the assets of Theta in order to lose money or cease the development of new products… we are capitalists after-all.

There are truths and there are outright lies. The following should clear them up:

1. When ATI purchased the assets of Theta Digital, we kept all employees in critical positions. Our chief engineer, Dave Reich never left us and is currently hard at work on new projects.

2. Regarding the HDMI project, we had two choices: engineer a totally new pre / pro or design an upgrade for the venerable Casablanca platform. The decision was obvious but much more difficult to implement. We could not abandon the legion of Casablanca owners who for years were enjoying the best controller available. We chose instead to design an upgrade for a unit that had very complex software and hardware. We actually demonstrated the Casablanca III with HDMI at the recent CEDIA Expo. This is a prototype unit that has not yet gone to beta testing. No matter how much pressure is put on us, we will not release it until we are as sure as possible that our customers will be well served and get what they expect. I was asked repeatedly about a release date. You should all know that the question is somewhat impossible to answer given the vicissitudes of software. To generally pick a number, we are approximately 95% there. Once again, remember that we are in business to produce exceptional products and make a profit… therefore it is obviously in our best interests to get this to market ASAP.

3. At CEDIA, we introduced our new Compli Blu transport. It is based on the popular OPPO player but of course has been “Theta-ized” by Dave R. and his staff. Details will be posted on the Theta Digital website soon. Here’s a scoop for you that nobody has yet been told: the Compli Blu will have an MSRP of $2,995.00 USD! We have begun production so you are welcome to order one from your favorite dealer


4. We are also in production of the Dreadnaught III. Please refer to our website for information. This new unit not only runs cooler than the DN2, but has enhanced performance specs as well as more power. Your dealer will gladly take your order!

5. It’s older news, but let me remind you that since ATI’s purchase of Theta Digital, we have also introduced the Generation VIII Series 2. Dealers, reviewers and end users alike have praised the sonic enhancement and have kept the G8S2 in the fore of the DAC market.

To those current Casablanca III owners, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water; you are still enjoying the best there is!

Mike Pontelle
ATI/Theta Digital

Well, that post from Theta should give all you CBIII owners comfort. You were assured that . . . well, you were finally told that . . . (let me go back and read it) . . . ahem . . .

Ah, yes . . . you now know that you're going to be able to buy Theta's version of Oppo's $500 player for a mere 6x its retail cost.

As for HDMI? That response read a lot like the "it is what it is" mantra that received rave reviews before.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

I have been reading with great interest the many and varied comments on this forum. I would like to start by saying that the rumors of Theta Digital’s demise are greatly exaggerated! (My apologies to Mark Twain). ATI did not purchase the assets of Theta in order to lose money or cease the development of new products… we are capitalists after-all.

There are truths and there are outright lies. The following should clear them up:

1. When ATI purchased the assets of Theta Digital, we kept all employees in critical positions. Our chief engineer, Dave Reich never left us and is currently hard at work on new projects.

2. Regarding the HDMI project, we had two choices: engineer a totally new pre / pro or design an upgrade for the venerable Casablanca platform. The decision was obvious but much more difficult to implement. We could not abandon the legion of Casablanca owners who for years were enjoying the best controller available. We chose instead to design an upgrade for a unit that had very complex software and hardware. We actually demonstrated the Casablanca III with HDMI at the recent CEDIA Expo. This is a prototype unit that has not yet gone to beta testing. No matter how much pressure is put on us, we will not release it until we are as sure as possible that our customers will be well served and get what they expect. I was asked repeatedly about a release date. You should all know that the question is somewhat impossible to answer given the vicissitudes of software. To generally pick a number, we are approximately 95% there. Once again, remember that we are in business to produce exceptional products and make a profit… therefore it is obviously in our best interests to get this to market ASAP.

3. At CEDIA, we introduced our new Compli Blu transport. It is based on the popular OPPO player but of course has been “Theta-ized” by Dave R. and his staff. Details will be posted on the Theta Digital website soon. Here’s a scoop for you that nobody has yet been told: the Compli Blu will have an MSRP of $2,995.00 USD! We have begun production so you are welcome to order one from your favorite dealer


4. We are also in production of the Dreadnaught III. Please refer to our website for information. This new unit not only runs cooler than the DN2, but has enhanced performance specs as well as more power. Your dealer will gladly take your order!

5. It’s older news, but let me remind you that since ATI’s purchase of Theta Digital, we have also introduced the Generation VIII Series 2. Dealers, reviewers and end users alike have praised the sonic enhancement and have kept the G8S2 in the fore of the DAC market.

To those current Casablanca III owners, don’t throw the baby out with the bath water; you are still enjoying the best there is!

Mike Pontelle
ATI/Theta Digital

Mike, as always, thanks so much.

This is really great news!!!@@@@

Also since ATI's purchase of Theta Digital, you have come out with the Citadel 1.5, an upgrade to the original, as well:

http://www.thetadigital.com/citadel_1.5_amplifier_info.shtml


I must say an MSRP of $2,995 for the Compli Blu suggests that someone is listening to us!

I must say an MSRP of $2,995 for the Compli Blu suggests that someone is listening to us!

I will be very curious to see what one gets for an additional $2500 that is actually audible and/or can be easily seen on a large screen.

There are truths and there are outright lies. The following should clear them up:



I would be interested in what you are referring to by "outright lies." What were they and who told them?

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Mike, as always, thanks so much.

This is really great news!!!@@@@

Also since ATI's purchase of Theta Digital, you have come out with the Citadel 1.5, an upgrade to the original, as well:

http://www.thetadigital.com/citadel_1.5_amplifier_info.shtml


I must say an MSRP of $2,995 for the Compli Blu suggests that someone is listening to us!

6X the consumer MSRP (or likely 8Xcost). They are listening alright...:D

Cmon guys and gals, let give Mike/Theta a break.

But I sure hoping the HDMI upgrade would be $2995.

And I think most will agree, the CBIII is still the best processor out there.

And I think most will agree, the CBIII is still the best processor out there.

It's certainly the most current ;)

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Mike,
thanks for posting. Is it possible to provide a bit more details on the status of the HDMI upgrade? Are the software changes quite extensive? Is Theta considering room eq.? That would be nice!!!

Cmon guys and gals, let give Mike/Theta a break.

But I sure hoping the HDMI upgrade would be $2995.

And I think most will agree, the CBIII is still the best processor out there.

Let me update that statement as it applies to today's digital age:

And I think most will agree, the CBIII is still the best analog processor out there.;)

I will be very curious to see what one gets for an additional $2500 that is actually audible and/or can be easily seen on a large screen.

From what I've been reading about Oppo mods, as various companies are doing them, I think that clearly thanks to better power supply, clock and parts that those using the player's analog outs, for both stereo and multi-channel, will get better sonics. Whether those better sonics are as good as or better than a stock Pioneer 09, that I do not know and will not venture a guess. My impression is that the Oppo modders are not doing any DAC changes.

As to those of us interested in Oppo modded solely as an HDMI transport for Blu Ray AND perhaps for digital transmission of SACD (converted to PCM by the Oppo), the questions is whether such mods will reduce jitter and result in discernable video improvement and/or audio improvement. I do not know. Seems most of the Oppo mods out there again are for folks who want to use the player for all of their audio and video player needs.

It would be nice to have an idea of whether the mod involves simply an upgraded power supply, or also a better clock, or also other items as well.

When the Theta HDMI upgrade option for existing owners is completed, does anyone know if it will be included in the CBIII core price for new purchases? On the surface it would seem that any processor being new sold today must have HDMI support as part of its core functions.

When the Theta HDMI upgrade option for existing owners is completed, does anyone know if it will be included in the CBIII core price for new purchases? On the surface it would seem that any processor being new sold today must have HDMI support as part of its core functions.

ATI-Theta hasn't set or announced pricing yet. So we do not know.

On the other hand, the CB3 HDMI will be available as a brand new model and certainly they will have a MSRP price list for it depending upon the features, channels, DACs, etc ordered.

ATI/Theta has dicussed nothing re room correction.

agreed. I asked the qiestion and they said to consider it at this point would only delay relase of the unit.

However we have to face it. It's almost a miracle that a processor this old is getting any upgrades at all.

at a boy bulldogger. Viva La Bull......ah.....dogger:D

From what I've been reading about Oppo mods, as various companies are doing them, I think that clearly thanks to better power supply, clock and parts that those using the player's analog outs, for both stereo and multi-channel, will get better sonics. Whether those better sonics are as good as or better than a stock Pioneer 09, that I do not know and will not venture a guess. My impression is that the Oppo modders are not doing any DAC changes.

As to those of us interested in Oppo modded solely as an HDMI transport for Blu Ray AND perhaps for digital transmission of SACD (converted to PCM by the Oppo), the questions is whether such mods will reduce jitter and result in discernable video improvement and/or audio improvement. I do not know. Seems most of the Oppo mods out there again are for folks who want to use the player for all of their audio and video player needs.

It would be nice to have an idea of whether the mod involves simply an upgraded power supply, or also a better clock, or also other items as well.

If this is anything like the old days where Theta did upgrades to Pioneer Elite chassis and renamed it the Theta Data, it's pretty much going to be an audio upgrade. How significant? I guess we'll have to wait n see.

ATI-Theta hasn't set or announced pricing yet. So we do not know.

On the other hand, the CB3 HDMI will be available as a brand new model and certainly they will have a MSRP price list for it depending upon the features, channels, DACs, etc ordered.

What Mike told me at CEDIA was $5,000.....for the upgrade that is.

If this is anything like the old days where Theta did upgrades to Pioneer Elite chassis and renamed it the Theta Data, it's pretty much going to be an audio upgrade. How significant? I guess we'll have to wait n see.
In speaking to Theta, I've been assured that the new Compli BD will be the sonic equal of the original Compli. As Steve will attest, the original was a fine SACD - DVD A player indeed. It would be nice to have a player with SQ as good or better than the 09FD with Oppo speed, SACD - DVD A, and the added advantages of a Reich designed power supply and ancilliary improvements. We may be able to, like the Oppo, call it a killer value when you consider the Denon and Marantz. I intend to find out. Regards, Norm

What Mike told me at CEDIA was $5,000.....for the upgrade that is.

Price keeps going up. Soon they will price the upgrade to the point it wont make sense to upgrade and just buy another unit instead. We'll see.

Price keeps going up. Soon they will price the upgrade to the point it wont make sense to upgrade and just buy another unit instead. We'll see.

Given that many need to upgrade DAC's in addition to the HDMI upgrade, many are already at that point of buying another brand. The CB is an outstanding device and for the "gotta have a Theta" folks, I'm sure the new product will be great.

Given that many need to upgrade DAC's in addition to the HDMI upgrade, many are already at that point of buying another brand. The CB is an outstanding device and for the "gotta have a Theta" folks, I'm sure the new product will be great.

I guess I was 'lucky' when I bought my CBIII that it has the DAC's that will work with the HDMI upgrade. Having to buy DACs and the upgrade would make it a very expensive proposition.

As it is, it will definitely be an expensive upgrade, but much less so than buying an entire new SSP. As I have said before, I can't afford to dump the CBIII, no matter how long Theta takes. It would be a huge financial hit at the current used value.

That's pretty much the position I'm in. Do I upgrade or buy something else. The last upgrades were no brainers. For the price of a mid-range receiver one ended up with one of the best prepros going. Whether it was the best or near best worked fine for me at that price.

I didn't upgrade DACs at the last go around because, surprise, Theta was still working on the SACD-DVD-A upgrade for the CB III to go with direct interface with the Compli and they weren't sure that the Extreme's would work with the final product or not. Since the SS was going to be the best source for the time being I sat tight on the DACs. So the whole waiting game is deja vu all over again. And just in case someone new wonders how this all worked out Theta dropped the SACD upgrade altogether shortly thereafter.

Now given that I'm going to be looking at $10K+ this time around Theta will need to justify on performance as well as just being upgradable.

Should I offer to bet Mike (and only Mike) of Theta on the press release from Theta that the upgrade is available?

Let's see. CES is at the beginning of January 2010. So what if I bet $500 that, by the end of January 2010, there will still be no "definite date" on when the HDMI upgrade will be available?

Sorry, but his sudden email seemed a little too contrived, and also a bit disingenuous. I'm still waiting for him to respond to my question on what the "outright lies" have been.

Editor's note: He did confirm that ATI purchased assets, not stock, of Theta. While there are usually only good reasons from a buyer's perspective to purchase only assets, one of those reasons is that they cannot be stuck with the liabilities of the former corporation. These certainly include claims made by owners who changed their position financially based on the assurances made by the former owners.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Nick, as an attorney, certainly you can read and comprehend. So you know that ATI-Theta is not giving us a date when it will be ready, only that Momentum is currently writing the software/firmware and beta testing will hopefully begin soon.
And as a sly and smart consumer, you know that until HDMI 1.3 is here and said and done, there ain't no guarentee, especially in these dire economic times. Hopefully Theta will come through but meanwhile, it is sort of imprudent to buy a new CB3 even at reasonable discount from list, not until HDMI 1.3 is actually available. Us Theta owners remain hopeful but are yet to be assured until its said and done.

Sounds like you are ready to get in bed with The Bland

How would you know? Have you been there? HA!@@@@@:D

I continue to patiently wait and hope for the HDMI 1.3 upgrade since I am a long time Theta CB owner and that makes economic and hopefully sonic sense for me.

I am glad I purchased mine with the Xtreme DACS. Still 5K for HDMI is a tad steep. We'll see where it goes and what the final number is.

Nick, as an attorney, certainly you can read and comprehend. So you know that ATI-Theta is not giving us a date when it will be ready, only that Momentum is currently writing the software/firmware and beta testing will hopefully begin soon.
And as a sly and smart consumer, you know that until HDMI 1.3 is here and said and done, there ain't no guarentee, especially in these dire economic times. Hopefully Theta will come through but meanwhile, it is sort of imprudent to buy a new CB3 even at reasonable discount from list, not until HDMI 1.3 is actually available. Us Theta owners remain hopeful but are yet to be assured until its said and done.

Yes, I understand all that, Steve. But an open-ended statement that it'll be ready whenever it's ready is not a commitment at all. It's a statement that "we're trying, but there's no guarantee we'll succeed." When you combine that with the price they're talking if an upgrade gets done, I wonder what kind of market exists to properly incentivize them to get it done.

What the Sinclairs did in stringing people along while they knew they were selling would sure get me angry if I owned one. By creating an illusion of becoming "current" to CBIII owners, they were doing nothing more than enhancing the sale price they could get, and they did it by offering false hopes to CBIII owners--the real investors who lost.

Hopefully, the upgrade will become a reality, because it would be a shame for people to lose so much money because the Sinclairs wanted to enhance the price they could sell their assets for.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Nick, you are giving us your interpretation of events. Congratulations on your ability to read other folks' minds.

If one gives the Sinclairs the benefit of the doubt, they may well have been legitimately exploring the concept of HDMI, considering the cost, and also exploring selling the company at the same time. Given how perfectionist the Sinclairs had been in their audio development over all these years, why wouldn't they have been similarly inclined in reviewing this once HDMI needed to become a reality for the Casablanca to remain a long term viable surround processor? Also given the fact
that the Sinclairs owned Theta Digital since its start 20 years prior.

I do not know whether there was any intentional misleading. I don't know that exploring all possibilities is intentional misleading as you characterize it. I don't know if Evelyn Sinclair's posting at AVS that Theta had decided to move ahead with HDMI 1.3 was their own hopeful thinking while exploring sale possibilities as well, or if she was intentionally trying to mislead us. I cannot read her mind.
And I do not know if such posting by Evelyn Sinclair at AVS had any effect on enhancing sales price, as I am not privy to those discussions between ATI and Theta. Though I would think that the owner of ATI is a very good and shrewd businessman and somehow I doubt that ATI didn't fully investigate Theta's current hardware and developmental status before spending the money. To assume otherwise once again has no basis in fact of which we know but is simply speculation.

And thanks to many here at AVS, especially you Nick and The Bland, anyone reading Evelyn Sinclair's posts were well cautioned re holding off on buying any new Theta CB3 given the concerns about HDMI upgradeability. Nick, you don't give yourself enough credit for cautioning folks. And if you read my posts the past two years since Theta was sold to ATI, although I remain hopeful, I have cautioned folks not to buy new CB3s until HDMI 1.3 is here, and many folks have contacted me and heeded my cautions, thus a number of folks with the Integra 9.8 which I recommended as a relatively inexpensive, interim solution.

I do know the HDMI with license fees and the new development costs to try to HDMI-ize the "old" but wonderful sounding Casablanca platform is in todays dollars as much an expense as it was for Theta Digital to start development on the Casablanca as an audiophile state of the art surround processor in the first place. As we get older we often get much less risk prone with our $$$$. If HDMI was as simple dollar wise an upgrade as say the move from DPL and CS to DPL2 and CS2 not requiring bascially brand new state of the art surround processor development costs this would have moved the Sinclairs more towards not selling Theta.

The Sinclairs sold Theta many months before the market plummetted,and if they had waited or not sold, Theta would surely have gone under like many other companies. Whatever happens, API buying Theta can only be a better situation for Theta owners, and hopefully it will be - hopefully. But again, given this economy, nothing is set in stone, and until the fat lady sings with the HDMI 1.3 upgrade is actually available, nothing is actually 100% assured, so folks looking for brand new high end surround processors would be cautioned to hold off on buying a new CB3 unless and until the HDMI 1.3 is available.

Sorry, but I don't see an interpretation that flatters the Sinclairs. Up until the moment that the announcement of its sale was made, everyone on this forum was under the impression, from Evelyn's posts, and from Theta's website, that HDMI was a project "in the works."

I understand that the Sinclairs had a dilemma. If they let CBIII owners know that they were marketing the assets of the company, that would undercut their statements that HDMI was on the way. That would also have created an absolute chill on existing sales of CBIII units (as well as motivated owners to sell off their units), and would therefore undercut the price they could demand from ATI, since, despite this being an asset sale, every effort has been made to suggest that Theta has remained a going concern.

So the Sinclairs clearly had a choice: Either tell the public that HDMI was nowhere near as imminent as the perception they were actively fostering, or simply continue to foster that perception. What seems an inescapable conclusion is that they chose the latter.

The CBIII may well be worth all that and more to CBIII owners, but there should be no illusion that the sequence of revelations had much forthrightness to it.

Perhaps the Sinclairs felt they had no other choice, i.e., whatever happened to the CBIII owners was going to happen, and there was no point in them sinking with the ship. Still, I'd be mightily p*ssed if I had purchased a unit based in even the smallest part on their representations. And if those units could have been sold for greater dollars back then, but existing owners chose to wait--again, based on what the Sinclairs were saying--I'd feel the same way.

Again, I hope that ATI bails CBIII owners out. As you know, Steve, bad facts only get worse.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Nick, you are entitled to your interpretation. I prefer not to read minds. What counts is the future anyway, and I think you and I are in agreement on that.

I am glad I purchased mine with the Xtreme DACS. Still 5K for HDMI is a tad steep. We'll see where it goes and what the final number is.

My guess is that it is hard to set a price. ATI might be able to reduce the price if ATI felt that demand would be high. I remember discussing upgrading a processor that I owned with the product line manager about ten years ago. He said sure it can be upgraded as it was designed to be but a new board for DD-ex at the time would cost 3500.00 and the processor only cost 5000.00. That is the fundamental problem with upgrades of this magnitude. Sure, it can be done but the cost may be high. Upgrades like this only work for processor in the price range of the Casablanca. Any cheaper and the price of the upgrade may become over 50% of the value of the processor. Remembering that very frank conversation 10 years ago with a guy who seem very honest gives me a context now.

Sorry, but I don't see an interpretation that flatters the Sinclairs.


Nick :cool: After a lot of thought, I do not either. They left a big mess for any company to have to clean up.

Whatever else one can say about it I have to give Mike Pontelle some credit for just being brave enough to show at all around here. The general reception I've seen vendor reps get makes me thing root canal with dull chisel. Beyond that only time will tell how much was rhetoric and sophistry, and how much was fact.

Other than that I think maybe Sean's CB III is contagious. After several years of at most having to cycle back to standby to correct the very occasional glitch I've had to cold boot three or four times now, in the space of a couple weeks, to get any sound at all or correct no sound but white noise in the surrounds. You don't suppose Theta's got a timer in the thing to force a return home for upgrade? :D

I am new here even though I read your posts every day for years now. I will start by saying I am Theta lover with Citadel 1.5 (upgrade) and CBIII/Xtrem (BTW, Steve, the Citadel 1.5 upgrade was before ATI bought the Company but I easily understand that you do not know it as there not even a single review on internet about this impressive upgrade).

If I go back 13 months from now, this is the reply that gave me Theta to my email :
" Theta Digital's product development team are hard at work on several projects, including an HDMI 1.3 audio and video solution for the Casablanca III, for use with the Premium, the Superior II and the Xtreme D-2 DAC cards. The engineers hope to be able to show some fruit of their labour later this summer at CEDIA Expo in Denver, and we hope to be able to ship that solution by the end of the year 2008."

If your not an athorney, but a happy customer, you may think "they have a prototype and will soon be beta testing" (this is what I thought)

The truth is that they came to Cedia 2008 with an empty box and one year later, they came with a prototype that nobody heard with a proper setup (not a single post on the sound !!).

For months (if not years) they not only misleaded customers but also their retailers that must be struggling now to sell a Theta product. If we all cut and paste the answers received from Theta on a thread, it will surely be quite impressive...

What Mike said to this thread ?

1/Theta still doesn't know if they will go through.
To defend Mike/ATI, I would say that the take over of a company is always long and tough. ATI is a big company but it seams that they did not fuel the HDMI project with a big team.

2/ Theta still have old recipes (analog section in a blu ray box) : come and shop !

Nothing else !! After years of waiting, that's scary.

As theta guys, we can be divided into 2 classes :

1/ the one that cannot afford the hit to store or sell their CBIII
2/ the one that want world class product and can afford the hit.
(I do not count those who already moved on !)

A world class product, that is to say, great DAC, great analog section/power supply and great room correction fully customized on all the spectrum and if possible in the digital domain BEFORE D/A conversion (and not D/A + A/D DSP D/A)

If one of you can name some products like this one (denon ? Tact ? Anthem ?), I will go for a look right now !

What Theta has to offer ? great expensives DAC and good analog section. In any case, the costly upgrade will remain an "old recipe" compared to the description above. When will they be able to offer 2001st century ?

2/3/4 years is very long in the audio/video industry
Look at the improvement that Audio research / SIM2 / Ayre (and all the others) can do during this period ! Improvements are fast and significants.

So far ATI may have rescued Theta (I am wondering how many products Theta sells now...), but to capitalize on the brand, they need to speed on and hire a communication guy:( !

If I go back 13 months from now, this is the reply that gave me Theta to my email :
" Theta Digital's product development team are hard at work on several projects, including an HDMI 1.3 audio and video solution for the Casablanca III, for use with the Premium, the Superior II and the Xtreme D-2 DAC cards. The engineers hope to be able to show some fruit of their labour later this summer at CEDIA Expo in Denver, and we hope to be able to ship that solution by the end of the year 2008."

If your not an athorney, but a happy customer, you may think "they have a prototype and will soon be beta testing" (this is what I thought)



I received the same email around the same time as you did and much the same information the year before.

If you look at Theta's press release about the CBIII HDMI upgrade it states Summer 2009 as the release date. The other day, VGI (Craig Shumer; a large Theta dealer) said the 'Official News' is that the upgrades are expected to start by year's end. More recently Mike Pontell sought to clear up the unspecified 'outright lies' that existed about the upgrade and basically said it will be released when it is ready.

It is great to see a working unit, but I am personally not going to cheerlead for Theta because Mike came on and posted. The website should have been updated when it became clear that the unit was not going to ship for Summer 2009 and if they don't have a release date then that is what the website should say now, along with all the other things Mike said.

I am glad that Theta have responded to the pressure and said something (would Mike have posted what he posted without this thread being brought to his attention I wonder?) The info should be forthright and kept up to date on Theta's website and not always in response to our speculation. If Theta didn't keep people in the dark like they do, there would be no need to come here and post. People will always speculate and are entitled to.

Sean

Other than that I think maybe Sean's CB III is contagious. After several years of at most having to cycle back to standby to correct the very occasional glitch I've had to cold boot three or four times now, in the space of a couple weeks, to get any sound at all or correct no sound but white noise in the surrounds. You don't suppose Theta's got a timer in the thing to force a return home for upgrade? :D

My CBIII would need to be cold booted a couple of times a week, mostly loosing lock with the cable set-top box or the PS3.

I haven't had a chance to open up my CBIII yet to check for poorly seated cards. I figure the DACs must be secured correctly since the internal noise generator works as it should. My Mother is very ill right now and taking apart the CBIII is not to be done in haste or without due care and attention.

My CBIII would need to be cold booted a couple of times a week, mostly loosing lock with the cable set-top box or the PS3.

I haven't had a chance to open up my CBIII yet to check for poorly seated cards. I figure the DACs must be secured correctly since the internal noise generator works as it should. My Mother is very ill right now and taking apart the CBIII is not to be done in haste or without due care and attention.

If you have the latest firmware, then your CB3 menu will have a setting, per each input, to set the PLL or digital lock at normal or wide. Normal sounds better to me even on DirecTV. But Wide still sounds good and you shouldn't experience this loss of signal or lock using Wide.

I received the same email around the same time as you did and much the same information the year before.

If you look at Theta's press release about the CBIII HDMI upgrade it states Summer 2009 as the release date. The other day, VGI (Craig Shumer; a large Theta dealer) said the 'Official News' is that the upgrades are expected to start by year's end. More recently Mike Pontell saught to clear up the unspecified 'outright lies' that existed about the upgrade and basically said it will be released when it is ready.

It is great to see a working unit, but I am personally not going to cheerlead for Theta because Mike came on and posted. The website should have been updated when it became clear that the unit was not going to ship for Summer 2009 and if they don't have a release date then that is what the website should say now, along with all the other things Mike said.

I am glad that Theta have responded to the pressure and said something (would Mike have posted what he posted without this thread being brought to his attention I wonder?) The info should be forthright and kept on to date on Theta's website and not always in response to our speculation. If Theta didn't keep people in the dark like they do, there would be no need to come here and post. People will always speculate and are entitled to.

Sean

Sean you are right about this.

Again, until the fat lady actually sings with her brand new or upgraded Theta CB3 with HDMI 1.3, working, there is nothing to sing about and nothing to spend money with Theta about for those buying an "audiophile" surround processor now. If I didn't have a CB3 already and for years - I'd probably have long had the Denon that Nicky boy raves about (some others do, too).

If you have the latest firmware, then your CB3 menu will have a setting, per each input, to set the PLL or digital lock at normal or wide. Normal sounds better to me even on DirecTV. But Wide still sounds good and you shouldn't experience this loss of signal or lock using Wide.

Steve,
Can't speak for Sean but in my case anyway the silence is absolute, analog and digital. That is unless I'm getting white noise from the surrounds. I don't believe normal vs wide has any effect in the analog domain.

Sean,
Sorry to hear about your mother.

Yes, opening a CB is a task for when you have time and a clear mind.

Steve,
Can't speak for Sean but in my case anyway the silence is absolute, analog and digital. That is unless I'm getting white noise from the surrounds. I don't believe normal vs wide has any effect in the analog domain.



My CBIII just won't play the source (although it shows source lock) I get a second of the source sometimes but most of the time it is noise in random speakers, shortly followed by silence.

The CBIII is also sluggish to remote commands. I will check the cards, it is a good suggestion and I would love to find a fix without having to mail it back to Theta. I have had no luck at all trying to get a connection with RS232.

Steve,
Can't speak for Sean but in my case anyway the silence is absolute, analog and digital. That is unless I'm getting white noise from the surrounds. I don't believe normal vs wide has any effect in the analog domain.



I was talkin' about using coaxial or toslink from a cable or satellite receiver or DVR, and having a loud pop or loss of sound, and that using the wide setting should alleviate that. Once the sound goes off like that, you either need to turn off and on by remote or front, or sometimes reset by turning off period in the back for say a half minute. I have only had this issue on occasion on my DirecTV HD receivers and only because I insist on having lock in CB3 menu set at normal. I never have had this happen with my Theta Compli, various Blu Ray or HD DVD players, or even D-VHS.

Normal v Wide only has affect in the digital domain.

My CBIII just won't play the source (although it shows source lock) I get a second of the source sometimes but most of the time it is noise in random speakers, shortly followed by silence.

The CBIII is also sluggish to remote commands. I will check the cards, it is a good suggestion and I would love to find a fix without having to mail it back to Theta. I have had no luck at all trying to get a connection with RS232.

Hopefully, Theta remedies RS-232. I imagine they will. You gotta have bullet proof commands... Especially with macros. My primary equipment is RS-232 controlled (or my wife would be useless in the theater): Lumis/HOST, Halcro SSP, Denon BD, Directv DVR, Stewart screen, Oppo BD are RS-232 controlled.

Sean, In case you don't know the only serial command that the CB will acknowledge when off is on. Other than that it's dead (pun not intended). Made doing the serial control a pain. Crystal has an on. Can't recall how TDD does it.

Steve, Yes, exactly. I haven't had to use wide on anything to get or maintain lock. Well behaved sources I guess. In my case I tried analog ins also in addition to different digital inputs. No joy. Just cycling to standby power via remote was also no joy. First time in years. I hadn't had to hard (cold) boot with the power switch since the CB I. Up till now even having to cycle in and out of standby had been very rare. The timing is rather frustrating.

Hopefully, Theta remedies RS-232. I imagine they will. You gotta have bullet proof commands... Especially with macros. My primary equipment is RS-232 controlled (or my wife would be useless in the theater): Lumis/HOST, Halcro SSP, Denon BD, Directv DVR, Stewart screen, Oppo BD are RS-232 controlled.

Now how do I argue with that?

Jeff, how do you control your wife in your theater by RS-232. She must be hard wired!@@:D:D:D

So, Steve . . . Think Mike Pontelle will follow your advice again to post on AVS?

;)

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Jeff,
It's far from obvious that Sean's using serial from his post. Seam to recall he had some challenge in finding a PC with a serial port to try and reload firmware. In any case his CB is obviously ill. Even though the serial protocol for the CB III is a bit clunky in day to day use it responds quite readily and quickly. I control that way. Nor have I had any problem in getting Crystal or TDD to connect. Basing a judgment on control-ability on a sick unit makes no sense unless you're just looking for an excuse to bash the CB. I just can't imagine that being the case.

So, Steve . . . Think Mike Pontelle will follow your advice again to post on AVS?

;)

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Objection, counselor. Misleading. No such facts exist in evidence. HA!!@@

I didn't talk to Mike Pontelle about posting at AVS and his post the other day was surprise.

Theta needs to keep their website updated and their communication current by whatever means.


Nick, if I sell my CB3 and get a Denon, will you quit posting in the Theta thread about something you have never owned and have no interest in owning? HA!

Nick, if I sell my CB3 and get a Denon, will you quit posting in the Theta thread about something you have never owned and have no interest in owning? HA!

Yes.

Nick :cool:

Les, I'm always looking for new ways to bash Theta. Where the he'll have you been?;)

Btw- what do you mean by 'clunky day to day'?

Yes.

Nick :cool:

Me, too.

Me, too.

Really!

Now that's Extreme (like my DACs)!

If I sell my Compli,will you guys go away 50% of the time?

Nick, how does your Denon sound on regular DVD Dolby Digital and DTS, and on redbook CD, compared to the Lexicon you had before?

Nick, how does your Denon sound on regular DVD Dolby Digital and DTS, and on redbook CD, compared to the Lexicon you had before?

They both sound superb. I did not leave the Lexicon because it lacked a thing in sound quality, and I was pleasantly surprised at how the Denon did not miss a beat. The Denon can spring from Dead Quiet to Thunder in the most natural way, whether on DD, DTS, or redbook CDs--so could the Lexicon.

The Denon does not have Logic 7, but DPLiix was already an alternate source of surround listening, even when I had the Lexicon.

What the Denon is that not many processors can match is an incredible piece of ground-up engineering that gives you superb sound from any medium without sacrificing a thing in terms of versatility.

The best sound quality available that I have heard is from DTS-MA. This is crystalline, and exquisite, and I can listen to it right now.

Finally, while the Lexicon had excellent Room EQ, so of course does the Denon. While I really don't want to start a new war, Room EQ is a far bigger deal than HDMI, as far as sound quality, and any processor that lacks Room EQ is missing a major feature of 21st Century sound quality, regardless of anything else.

Again, don't hold it against Denon that they came out with a processor that "only" lists for $7500. That kind of affordability is what has kicked the high end in the balls, and there will be no recovery. Current technology has made the traditional tweaking of the high end largely irrelevant.

And just for kicks, the build quality on the Denon beast-processor is easily as good as anything ever made. You can use your amplifier of choice (I still use 3 Halcro amps, but have heard great things about the Denon amp designed to mate with the AVP), and you can connect via balanced or single ended cable. Sterero subwoofers, great flexibility in all areas of audio and video setup, and IP addressable, so that you can change your settings from your computer.

With Theta in 2009 you're being told to hang indefinitely, and you get to pay a minimum of $5,000 to be cut down--Heaven knows when. With something like the Denon staring you in the face for just a few dollars more than the upgrade, how do you not, finally, cut bait?

Peace. I'd hate to hang that long.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Nick, do you have what Denon Blu Ray player? Are you using Denon link for SACD and DVD-A at all? Do you do redbook using analog out from the player vs a digital cable with the Denon processor doing the DA conversion? I am curious about this.

Nick, do you have what Denon Blu Ray player? Are you using Denon link for SACD and DVD-A at all? Do you do redbook using analog out from the player vs a digital cable with the Denon processor doing the DA conversion? I am curious about this.

No, no, no. I have a Sony BDP-CX7000ES 400 disc changer nearly filled, but another one waiting in the wings to start with changer number two. I've also got the Escient Vision VS-100 (still in the box) waiting for the Escient upgrade, to control multiple changers.

I have a Sony SCD-XA5400ES Super Audio CD player for when I want to use a single disc player, but my music is loaded in Sony DVP-CX777ES changers, and also on Escient DVDM300 servers.

The D/A conversion in the Denon processor makes me ignore any of the analog inputs except for the DVD-Audio and SACD from 400 disc changers, where I can't go out digitally as they don't have HDMI.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

.

And just for kicks, the build quality on the Denon beast-processor is easily as good as anything ever made.

Nick :cool:
Absolutely not true. It's using cheap op-amps for the analog section like everything else,except Theta CBIII and maybe a few others. Cheaper dacs than the CBiii but new models. Looks extremely well built. It probably is the best built processor for the money. Had to cut corners to hit the price point. Looks like a great buy. No one ever goes back after switching from a Lexicon MC12 to a CBIII with Xtremes something you and the bland failed to try. Apparently even with the advantage of bass correction, the Xtremes still win. I hope the Denon does sound better than the Lexicon. If not, then your boast are for not. According to the Bland the Halcro sounded considerably better than the Lexicon as well. I believe I saw one former owner post that the Denon was better than the Casablanca then recently seemed to seem to back off that statement. Actually I read read his statements and he never actually said that one was better than the other for sound quality. Just got tired of Theta which is good enough reason for anyone.

Les, I'm always looking for new ways to bash Theta. Where the he'll have you been?;)

Btw- what do you mean by 'clunky day to day'?

It's what I get for writing in midst of a full on migraine.

There should be a comma after clunky. The protocol is a pain to write a control system driver for in the way that it's set up. Parsing out the reply bitstream for two way communication was clunky. There may be other words for it but I'd probably get booted off the site.

Once you get passed that detail the system itself is fast, simple and reliable in day to day use. The end user never sees the nasty, gory bits in the background. How's that go? It just works.

Les, I'm always looking for new ways to bash Theta. Where the he'll have you been?;)...

Come now, surely you couldn't have missed the irony in my very tongue in cheek statement?:confused:

Absolutely not true. It's using cheap op-amps for the analog section like everything else,except Theta CBIII and maybe a few others. Cheaper dacs than the CBiii but new models. Looks extremely well built. It probably is the best built processor for the money. Had to cut corners to hit the price point. Looks like a great buy. No one ever goes back after switching from a Lexicon MC12 to a CBIII with Xtremes something you and the bland failed to try. Apparently even with the advantage of bass correction, the Xtremes still win. I hope the Denon does sound better than the Lexicon. If not, then your boast are for not. According to the Bland the Halcro sounded considerably better than the Lexicon as well. I believe I saw one former owner post that the Denon was better than the Casablanca then recently seemed to seem to back off that statement. Actually I read read his statements and he never actually said that one was better than the other for sound quality. Just got tired of Theta which is good enough reason for anyone.

Hi,
i am a former CB2 and CB3 owner, for 8 years. I finally changed to the Denon, and in my room, with my system, the Denon sounds better than the Theta ever did. Part of that is it's ability do use HDMI and the hi-res codecs from Blu-ray. Part of that is it's innate good sound. I just got the professional Audessey calibration ( see the thread in this forum) and the sound is unbelievable. Great imaging, soundstaging, effects panning and crisp, detailed dialog. I could NEVER go back.
Finally, it worked right out of the box, perfectly. And it continues to work under all conditions, no matter what source I use.
I don't use it for music. I have an all-MBL system with a music server and MSB DAC that takes care of that end.

David

Hi,
i am a former CB2 and CB3 owner, for 8 years. I finally changed to the Denon, and in my room, with my system, the Denon sounds better than the Theta ever did. Part of that is it's ability do use HDMI and the hi-res codecs from Blu-ray. Part of that is it's innate good sound. I just got the professional Audessey calibration ( see the thread in this forum) and the sound is unbelievable. Great imaging, soundstaging, effects panning and crisp, detailed dialog. I could NEVER go back.
Finally, it worked right out of the box, perfectly. And it continues to work under all conditions, no matter what source I use.
I don't use it for music. I have an all-MBL system with a music server and MSB DAC that takes care of that end.

David

I believe you as you appear to be an extremely credible listener. I would not weigh the ability to use the hi-rez codecs against the current non-HDMI CBIII. Of course it would lose that battle against all of the top processors that can. What I believe you are saying is that even when it can process DTS-HD you expect the Denon will sound better? Theta is changing the power supply. That could offer some improvements or not. The Denon may still sound better. I may have to strongly consider sticking with my two Six Shooters and a high-end blu-ray player. I know the Six Shooters are more transparent than any surround processor I have tried, by a significant margin. Does your two channel rig have bass correction? If not I would assume that you consider your two channel analog pre-amp superior to the Denon even without the room correction or else you could use a second Denon in that room as well?

David, thank you for your post.
Could you give more details on the comparison.

1/ Did you have Xtream cards on your CBIII
2/ With the Denon, if you play a DVD (not a blu ray), does the Denon still beat the CB III ?

Florent

Okay, I am one of the long-suffering CBIII owners with Extreme DACs who has been waiting and waiting for the "upgrade". My question is this -- what, if anything, am I actually sacrificing by purchasing a six shooter and just hooking it up to my [intentionally not disclosed brand/model] Blu-ray player?

Thanks!

Jonathan:

Not much, if anything at all, except maybe convience(not running 6-8 audio analog cables) according to Tyree, and Bulldogger as long as the Bluray player has a very good analog output, I must also agree as I have gone this route

David, thank you for your post.
Could you give more details on the comparison.

1/ Did you have Xtream cards on your CBIII
2/ With the Denon, if you play a DVD (not a blu ray), does the Denon still beat the CB III ?

Florent


I had an extreme DAC for the front speakers and, I believe center, and superior for the rest. Just to be clear. Even though audio memory is suspect, I find the Denon to be better than the CB3 on regular DVD's. I'm sure that part of this was the first Audessey room correction. With the professional calibration, the sound is in a whole new realm. My interpetation of this is that there are probably very few things that make as much a difference as room correction, and that the sound of the units is pretty close. As for 2-channel music. my preamp is an MBL 6010D, an extremely expensive analog pre that is specifically voiced to the rest of my MBL system, so any comparisons between it and the Denon would be unfair and meaningless.

David

Absolutely not true. It's using cheap op-amps for the analog section like everything else,except Theta CBIII and maybe a few others. Cheaper dacs than the CBiii but new models. Looks extremely well built. It probably is the best built processor for the money. Had to cut corners to hit the price point. Looks like a great buy. No one ever goes back after switching from a Lexicon MC12 to a CBIII with Xtremes something you and the bland failed to try. Apparently even with the advantage of bass correction, the Xtremes still win. I hope the Denon does sound better than the Lexicon. If not, then your boast are for not. According to the Bland the Halcro sounded considerably better than the Lexicon as well. I believe I saw one former owner post that the Denon was better than the Casablanca then recently seemed to seem to back off that statement. Actually I read read his statements and he never actually said that one was better than the other for sound quality. Just got tired of Theta which is good enough reason for anyone.

Whatever, B-Dog. I won't for moment foray into the type of conclusions you do based on the individual experience of one or two people. Nor have I ever said that the Denon sounds better than the Lexicon. I've simply said that its sound quality doesn't make me miss the Lexicon, except for Logic 7.

So now what? Because one or two unspecified people went from a Lexicon to a Theta, does that prove some point you're trying to make? I've read the poster's comments on this thread regarding his preference for the Denon over the CBIII, and I appreciate his input, but read closely his conclusion that room correction was a substantial difference.

As much as you want to suggest you're approaching these discussions objectively, well, then up jumps the devil again. Good luck.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

I plan to wait and see what and when Theta has something to offer. I will audition it and see, though I expect it to be stellar when it is released. However, while the Denon is a nice piece, it is not in the same sonic area as the Theta - however, in HDMI, right now - it wins! Hands down!

I plan to wait and see what and when Theta has something to offer. I will audition it and see, though I expect it to be stellar when it is released. However, while the Denon is a nice piece, it is not in the same sonic area as the Theta - however, in HDMI, right now - it wins! Hands down!

Hi Peter:

In what kind of system have you used the Denon?

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

I have heard it in a couple of systems, pre Aud. Level 2 calibration though.

I have found it to be a bit "over-bassy" and pronounced. On analog this can be good, but on digital sources it seems a bit "heavy". I will hopefully hear on which has been calibrated with the latest Aud stuff soon. Don't know if that will change my impression though.

IAs for 2-channel music. my preamp is an MBL 6010D, an extremely expensive analog pre that is specifically voiced to the rest of my MBL system, so any comparisons between it and the Denon would be unfair and meaningless.

David

Wow do you like to evade questions. So NO the Denon is far inferior even with room correction. Sooooo, room correction gets you only so far. And NO you do not have any from of room correction in your two channel room. The high-end analog pre-amp is so superior to the Denon that the comparison is unfair and meaningless. I think I get it.

I had an extreme DAC for the front speakers and, I believe center, and superior for the rest Looks like I gave you too much credit:). The original Superior dacs are vastly inferior to the Xtreme dacs. Every negative comment about the Casablanca usually involves those dacs. The surrounds would be pretty dead in comparison to the front channels. I can see why you prefer the Denon. Too bad you did not have Xtremes all around. One of the first things I noticed was how much more immersing the surround channels are with the Xtremes. Xtremes all around do make a difference. You would need those to make credible comments. Without them, your comments, it's impossible to make an accurate comment.

I have heard it in a couple of systems, pre Aud. Level 2 calibration though.

I have found it to be a bit "over-bassy" and pronounced. On analog this can be good, but on digital sources it seems a bit "heavy". I will hopefully hear on which has been calibrated with the latest Aud stuff soon. Don't know if that will change my impression though.

That sounds pretty vague, in every respect. I've heard Theta on "a couple of systems" too, but recognizing that things like rooms, associated equipment, and especially sources are dominating influences in any meaningful comparison, I wouldn't hazard an opinion on whether something sounds better or worse than it.


Wow do you like to evade question. So NO the Denon is far inferior even with room correction. Sooooo, room correction gets you only so far. And NO you do not have any from of room correction in your two channel room. The high-end analog pre-amp is so superior to the Denon that the comparison is unfair and meaningless. I think I get it.

He didn't evade the question at all, BD. I would fully expect a high end two-channel preamp to sound better, for what it does, than any surround processor--two channel stereo. Listen to a Halcro analog preamp with its high-end two channel amplifier, and you'll understand what he's saying.

Instead, you come out swinging. What you're reacting to is his conclusion that he liked the Denon better than his former CBIII, and that hurt your feelings.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Whatever, B-Dog. I won't for moment foray into the type of conclusions you do based on the individual experience of one or two people. Nor have I ever said that the Denon sounds better than the Lexicon. I've simply said that its sound quality doesn't make me miss the Lexicon, except for Logic 7.

So now what? Because one or two unspecified people went from a Lexicon to a Theta, does that prove some point you're trying to make? I've read the poster's comments on this thread regarding his preference for the Denon over the CBIII, and I appreciate his input, but read closely his conclusion that room correction was a substantial difference.

As much as you want to suggest you're approaching these discussions objectively, well, then up jumps the devil again. Good luck.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:
Hmmm, what I am reading that where he has spent the most money, he has no bass correction. Bass correction was obviously trumped by a superior analog pre-amp which has been my point all along. Bass correction only gets you so far which is why it can not make a poor sounding processor a great one.

He didn't evade the question at all, BD. I would fully expect a high end two-channel preamp to sound better, for what it does, than any surround processor--two channel stereo. Listen to a Halcro analog preamp with its high-end two channel amplifier, and you'll understand what he's saying.

Instead, you come out swinging. What you're reacting to is his conclusion that he liked the Denon better than his former CBIII, and that hurt your feelings.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Exactly which is what I said. The Six Shooter qualifies as a high-end pre-amp and the same thing happens. Hurt my feeling? Please. Two channel source with a two channel pre-amps or 8 channel pre-amp with an eight channel source. If they are good enough,this is a greater difference.

Whatever, B-Dog. I won't for moment foray into the type of conclusions you do based on the individual experience of one or two people.

Nick :cool:

You do not have to do that. I do take the observations of others seriously. Do what ever you feel. Does not affect me. In all seriousness, I do not take YOUR observations that seriously as you seem incapable of true objective discussions or subjective ones. I think flaccid was the term I used. I tried to engage you in an objective discussion about build quality. Then you admit your lack of knowledge but that does not stop you from claiming that one processor is the best one ever built. What gives?

You do not have to do that. I do take the observations of others seriously. Do what ever you feel. Does not affect me. In all seriousness, I do not take YOUR observations that seriously as you seem incapable of true objective discussions or subjective ones. I think flaccid was the term I used. I tried to engage you in an objective discussion about build quality. Then you admit your lack of knowledge but that does not stop you from claiming that one processor is the best one ever built. What gives?

Again, your feelings are getting hurt. What was your "objective" attempt to engage me in a discussion on "build quality," other than you looking up the prices of different parts that appear in different units, and then passing it off as some sort of sophistication on your part, as if it contained an ounce of credibility?

I deliberately avoid proclaiming inherently subjective judgments as the "facts" that you so clumsily build most of your "arguments" on, and all of it is so transparently an attempt to support your real proposition, i.e., your toy is the best toy.

There are things that can be discussed objectively, such as feature-sets, capitalization of the companies, release dates of upgrades. As for build quality, I can assure you that I either own or have owned a number of pieces of equipment where build quality is evident even to an untrained eye, and the Denon is easily among them. I'm grateful that professional reviewers have fairly universally concurred in those observations regarding the Denon. You, on the other hand, take things way too far by suggesting that you've somehow acquired an expertise beyond a layperson's, primarily because you've engaged in some superficial inquiry like how much a part costs. Is that like the legal advice you were espousing earlier in this thread, on what you'd heard from some lawyer?

I would have concluded that it was simply me that bothered you, and left it alone. Your pretty snide comments to David, who posted on his preference for the Denon over the CBIII, were evidence that your problem was with anyone that dared to suggest something bad about the Most-Revered Theta. Very ironic considering the little ditty beneath your signature.

Thanks,

Nick :cool: