Runco is showing their $19,000 and up LED projector at CEDIA to dealers. Shipping in November 2009.

Projection Design ans Sim2 have theirs there too

ANy of these LEDs do 2500 calibrated lumens?? WHat is the real world light output of these?

Jeff,
I think this is one problem for folks like us in this generation of projectors.

Art

ANy of these LEDs do 2500 calibrated lumens?? WHat is the real world light output of these?
I think Sim2 said 800 today.

Since everyone now has these out there and all using pretty much the same design it is becoming clear that light out is still low.

Real calibrated lumens on all of these is about 600 - but note that is going to remain exactly stable for the lifetime of the projector. This is similar to what a JVC HD750 does once calibrated if people are looking for a comparison.

For completeness I have seen LED PJ from:

DPI
PD
Sim2
Vivitek
Runco

here at the show.

600 lumen at d 65 sounds right.

600 d65 lumens that stays that way for the lifetime of the projector is a very bright projector.

Could someone please tell me whether the new Runco LED projector is based on a single-chip or a three-chip design? Given the price, I expect a single chip, but hope springs eternal.

Thank you.

Jeff,
I think this is one problem for folks like us in this generation of projectors.

Art

Then how long do you think until LED technology can produce a real light cannon?

600-800 lumens is pretty impressive for LED at this point. It's first generation stuff, which means prices will tumble and performance will go up over the next 2-5 years.

Could someone please tell me whether the new Runco LED projector is based on a single-chip or a three-chip design? Given the price, I expect a single chip, but hope springs eternal.

Thank you.

I'm ignorant on the subject, but is this necessarily the way it is done? I know that we speak in terms of single and three-chip DLP, but is the approach the same?

I've read of LCD LED televisions. Can LED be either DLP or LCD, or is it something different altogether?

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

No color wheel or fans on the Runco product ... single chip DLP.

No color wheel or fans on the Runco product ... single chip DLP.

I'm assuming that, at least in theory, no possibility of RBE without the color wheel?

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

Originally Posted by jmeyers
Could someone please tell me whether the new Runco LED projector is based on a single-chip or a three-chip design? Given the price, I expect a single chip, but hope springs eternal.

Thank you.

I'm ignorant on the subject, but is this necessarily the way it is done? I know that we speak in terms of single and three-chip DLP, but is the approach the same?

I've read of LCD LED televisions. Can LED be either DLP or LCD, or is it something different altogether?

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

No 3chip LED DLP has been announced yet.

To see the internal design of a single chip LED DLP you can read the cine4home review of the Vivitek LED DLP;
(in german; use google translate)
http://www.cine4home.de/Specials/VivitekLED/Vivitek%20LED%20Preview2.htm

No color wheel, no RBE.

LEDs come in colors. LEDs can turn on and off quickly. LEDs have long lifetimes.

Given these basic characteristics how can I design an LED projector? Well I could just replace the light sources with LEDs. So I could take a 3LCD projector and replace the UHP bulb with a white LED. This would yield a projector for which you would not need to replace the bulb. But it still would suffer from aging LCDs and it would still have convergence problems. You could use prisms and filters on white LED light or you could have separate red, blue, and green LEDs. It doesn't matter. Nobody uses LEDs this way. LEDs contribute nothing to an LCD projector except longer life for the light source. This isn't enough.

In an DLP projector you could just replace the white UHP bulb with white LEDs. If you went for a three chip DLP design you would have to split the light into its RGB components. Or you could use discrete red, geen and blue LEDs for each of the three DLP chips. This could work but nobody has chosen to build a projector this way as far as I know. It doesn't sound cheap.

Or you could choose a one chip DLP design. This would mean that you would still have to use a color wheel which implies RBE for some. Nobody builds a projector this way. Instead of using LEDs to make white light you could just use red, green, and blue LEDs. Then you could turn them on and off real fast - faster than any mechanical color wheel. This is the design approach taken my every manufacturer so far.

The fat part of the HT market is around $2K to $3K. At the bottom end there are the pico-projectors that cost about $600. These are almost all driven by LEDs and a single DLP chip. This market fact shows that this is the correct design. Its cheap, long lasting and tough. Soon all notebooks and many phones will have such a projector built in. At the top of the HT range there are suddenly a lot of LED projectors in the $15k to $20k range. They have the advantage of long life for their light source but little else.

Currently the most popular HT projectors are 3LCDs. That should change. A one chip DLP/LED projector is inherently more reliable and has lower maintenance. With less heat coming from LEDs these projectors will need smaller fans, they will have sealed light paths, and no way to change a bulb. Their panels will not age the way even the new inorganic Cine2 LCD panels still do. They will not have misconvergence. Indeed installers may soon build them into the walls of the house and plaster over everything except the lens.

The first wave of home theater projectors were CRT based. Large, expensive, and requiring a lot of tricky maintenance. The second wave are the current digital LCD, LCoS, and DLP designs based on UHP bulbs. A lot of convienience and low cost but otherwise terrible designs - expensive bulbs that can blow at any time, spinning color wheels that squeek, multiple panels to converge, and lots of heat. The next wave of will be single chip DLPs driven by LEDs. Long life, few moving parts, low heat, no RBE, no misconvergence, little maintenance and very tough. Such devices have been available in tiny projectors for a couple years. Such devices are available now for HT for over $12K. The $3K DLP LED HT projector is about three years off - give or take.

The big projector market is likely to be the phone/PDA/notebook market. If so technology developed there will cross fertilize the HT market.

Thanks PLB great reading

It would appear then that there is no use for 3 chip DLP with LED's, and therefore highly unlikley that they could be -retrofit from UHP lamp source to LED light source in the future

This is especially true because LEDs will go about 3 times as bright if you only use them for 1/3rd the amount of time. So a 3-chip PJ wouldn't be any brighter because you'd have to run the LEDs at a lower constant output.

If you went for a three chip DLP design you would have to split the light into its RGB components. Or you could use discrete red, geen and blue LEDs for each of the three DLP chips. This could work but nobody has chosen to build a projector this way as far as I know.It doesn't sound cheap.

There certainly are 3 chip LED units being worked on atm. These use designs for matrices of triads, and for single color matrices. Over simplifying, the optics involve 2 extra prisms and an integrator rod.

This is especially true because LEDs will go about 3 times as bright if you only use them for 1/3rd the amount of time. So a 3-chip PJ wouldn't be any brighter because you'd have to run the LEDs at a lower constant output.

They most certainly are brighter. The LEDs don't need to run constantly at high output, that depends on the image requirement in terms of brightness and color composition.

There are at least 3 companies involved in 3 chip LED. There are also 3 matrix single chip designs as well.


Hope this helps.

Interesting about 3 chip design, do you think it would be possible to retrofit a 3 chip UHP with LED light source?

"It would appear then that there is no use for 3 chip DLP with LED's, and therefore highly unlikley that they could be -retrofit from UHP lamp source to LED light source in the future"

The first part is true, the second might not be depending on architecture of the particular pj.

3-chips tend to be large to begin with, and more space could be made by removal of the the color splitting optics, perhaps leaving adequate space to retrofit the LED's.

I doubt this would be viable commercially, but might be feasible for someone who has lots of time to burn.

3-chips tend to be large to begin with, and more space could be made by removal of the the color splitting optics, perhaps leaving adequate space to retrofit the LED's.

Thats not the case. There is the corresponding real estate hit for the wedges and integrator rod are used to bring the matrices together.

Interesting about 3 chip design, do you think it would be possible to retrofit a 3 chip UHP with LED light source?

Absolutely not.

Due to H-K effect, LEDs appear brighter than they measure by traditional methods...I've read on the order of 25% brighter. So a measurement of 800ANSI appears to be 1000.

In another LED PJ demo the attendees tried to guess the ftL. After being "baited" by the presenter I made my guess at 18-20 ftL since the picture looked sharp and bright.

We were told the measurement was 6.5! With that said the LED PJs will have to have some sort of "conversion utility" when it comes to specs.

"There is the corresponding real estate hit for the wedges and integrator rod are used to bring the matrices together."

Aren't these for bringing the 3 cvolors together in a 1-chip DLP?

In a 3-chip, aren't the combining optics already there?

In another LED PJ demo the attendees tried to guess the ftL. After being "baited" by the presenter I made my guess at 18-20 ftL since the picture looked sharp and bright.

We were told the measurement was 6.5! With that said the LED PJs will have to have some sort of "conversion utility" when it comes to specs.


Are these demo's done with BD material, or special demo material? I see no way that this thing with higher percieved brightness is going to happen without heavily oversaturated colors. And in that regard, I consider the talk of using some special algorithm to create oversaturated primaries without messing up the skin tones, complete and utter BS. Since when did accurate color start being about only skin tones? One of the Vivitek demo's I have seen, that I thought looked like complete crap, had okay skin tones, but saturated colors looked like neon, where they obviously shouldn't. A piece of red fabric on a guy's jacket looked like it was a glowing neon lamp. Several people standing beside me thought it looked "amazing", because they had never seen such bright colors before. Fine, if the material was created to take advantage of it, but it isn't.

We have had flatscreens with heavily oversaturated primaries for years. They look like crap, if you don't dial back the saturation. Now we get projectors with oversaturated primaries, and just because this LED thing is new and exciting, we're expected to believe that they all of a sudden created some clever algorithm that allows us to oversaturate the colors without messing them up? My BS-o-meter is maxed out.

"There is the corresponding real estate hit for the wedges and integrator rod are used to bring the matrices together."

Aren't these for bringing the 3 cvolors together in a 1-chip DLP?

In a 3-chip, aren't the combining optics already there?

Sorry Noah, I was getting ahead of myself. I didn't explain well enough.

I meant to say that there would still be a hit for 2 additional prisms, if they are using I matrix per chip, as the matrices are in an open square arrangement.

The option with 2 wedges and an integrator rod is still one of the design options as it negates the need for triads and allows a brighter output. This is at the expense of a slightly more complex optical path.

The other big development is with local, or zone based, dimming. That is certainly on the cards.

I cant expand any further on these points atm. I will when I can

In another LED PJ demo the attendees tried to guess the ftL. After being "baited" by the presenter I made my guess at 18-20 ftL since the picture looked sharp and bright.

We were told the measurement was 6.5! With that said the LED PJs will have to have some sort of "conversion utility" when it comes to specs.

Ive seen a number of LED demos now. I never saw anything that gave the impression of being 3 times as bright as it was.

Several people standing beside me thought it looked "amazing", because they had never seen such bright colors before. Fine, if the material was created to take advantage of it, but it isn't.

I've also had similar experience. I heard a number of people stating that they though an image was "incredible".....when, in actual fact, it was far from good.

TBH ive encountered this phenomena on many occasions, both with video and audio.

Slightly off topic. Otto J. Is your BS-o-meter analog or digital? My meter is analog and very old. It is still interesting to watch it quiver every once and awhile and then say as an LED demo progresses to see the needle pin itself all the way to the right. There is a rotary switch which in essence adjusts the input sensitivity and if set at the far right provides some head room. In that position I have never had the needle pin itself. This I attribute to almost any product demo having at least some small element of truth or reality to it. But then again, it could be just miscalibrated.

Just telling you what I saw. Nothing more nothing less.

The picture looked fantastic [ I did not see the Runco, I'm NOT a dealer ].

In all I watched 3 LED demos and was only impressed with one that I mentioned earlier.

So what would be the general consensus on when we might see lumen output approaching 3500, and On/Off Native contrast greater than 10K?

I am also very impressed with LED. Finally a technology capable of delivering a gamut close to film.
I remember someone from a predominant projector manufacture attending a private 35mm screening. He pointed to the screen and said our projectors cannot reproduce that color. Im happy too say LED delivers.
As far as accuracy Ill leave that battle to the calibrators but be prepared as LED will not stop at RGB. Next up will be 5 color LED. ISF will have to rewrite the book.
Im glad to see a technology advancing on the oldest and most limiting factor of our displays. Someone had to be first. Wide gamut source WILL follow and the calibrators will be happy again. In the meantime the sex appeal of LED colors will be hard for many to pass up except to the nut and bolt counters. The argument it is not accurate may be a tough one to win considering we see these colors in everyday life. Instead of beating up on this new technology we should re direct efforts demanding wider color gamut originating from the source. You cant stay in a box forever.

Ive seen a number of LED demos now. I never saw anything that gave the impression of being 3 times as bright as it was.

It has been documented that LED projectors appears to be a 25% brighter than a similar lamp based projector, with the same CIE lumen output. Not any where near 300%...

Are these demo's done with BD material, or special demo material? I see no way that this thing with higher percieved brightness is going to happen without heavily oversaturated colors.
That is an excellent point. The HK effect would be constant if two displays rendered them at the same standardized color calibration. The only way the preceived brightness would change is if one of them had higher level of saturation which can only happen if we deviate from the standard (BD in your example).

Further, HK effect is hue and viewer dependent. Some people don't see much of it, while others notice it more. And, the effect is far more apparent for reds as opposed to yellows. Since people are very senstive to oversaturated reds, I am not sure there is much of a free lunch here. Indeed, the two LED displays I saw (not Runco), both seemed to have oversaturated reds.

While I am excited about development of this new light source, I think we need to wait for proper evaluation of of them to understand what they really can do. There will likely be trade offs here that will come out, as it did for LED backlit flat panels. As Joe Kane would say, "there is something nice about simplicity of a pointing a light source at a mirror that you can't with other means..."

"I cant expand any further on these points atm. I will when I can"

I'll look forward to that then, thanks.

In another LED PJ demo the attendees tried to guess the ftL. After being "baited" by the presenter I made my guess at 18-20 ftL since the picture looked sharp and bright.

We were told the measurement was 6.5! With that said the LED PJs will have to have some sort of "conversion utility" when it comes to specs.

If that was the one with Dan Miller, then I was the one who guessed 42.:) I was ridiculed and bullied by Stacey and Darin for the rest of the show for my obvious lack of video knowledge.:D Dan was baiting us and I thought it might be lower and around what you said, but I thought he was going to go with some extreme which he did.


LED is obviously the future with emphasis on future. As Alan and the other guy from Sim said "Wait till you see what we have next year". That is pretty much what I got from the show as far as LED is concerned.

Alan,
I hope you are correct and that maybe we can get some improvement to the sources.

Interesting about 3 chip design, do you think it would be possible to retrofit a 3 chip UHP with LED light source?.

Well... there will be some guys doing frankenstein mods... :D

but other than that, the entire light engine/path and the associated power supply needs and cooling requirements will all be vastly different.

think of retrofitting a 911 with a battery pack.

H-K effect ...wherein the huge increase in color saturation and "color reach" of the LEDs (40% better than origial NTSC gamut and 80% better than current REC709 color) makes the image brighter than it measures on the standard white field tests -- some 25% brighter.

I've been told that to maintain accurate color LEDs need to be kept within a narrow temperature range. Otherwise they go off the reservation...reds become purple, etc. When properly managed, however, the color gamut, as others have noted, is huge. It's said that the heretofore impossible-to-reproduce blue of the carribean is no problem for LEDs. We shall see...

Slightly off topic. Otto J. Is your BS-o-meter analog or digital? My meter is analog and very old. It is still interesting to watch it quiver every once and awhile and then say as an LED demo progresses to see the needle pin itself all the way to the right. There is a rotary switch which in essence adjusts the input sensitivity and if set at the far right provides some head room. In that position I have never had the needle pin itself. This I attribute to almost any product demo having at least some small element of truth or reality to it. But then again,it could be just miscalibrated.

Good one :-) My BS-o-meter is 1-bit ;-)

However, usually I just close my ears to the marketing hype, and try to evaluate the actual performance regardless of how it is being marketed. I've found several products that were poorly marketed, but were actually fine performance for the money. I've also found products that were claimed to have an accurate image, that were actually way off.

All jokes aside, it worries me that companies that previously took accurate imaging quite seriously, are starting to tout oversaturated primaries an advantage that can be utilized with some sort of algorithm to skew the saturation.

I am also very impressed with LED. Finally a technology capable of delivering a gamut close to film.
I remember someone from a predominant projector manufacture attending a private 35mm screening. He pointed to the screen and said our projectors cannot reproduce that color. Im happy too say LED delivers.
As far as accuracy Ill leave that battle to the calibrators but be prepared as LED will not stop at RGB. Next up will be 5 color LED. ISF will have to rewrite the book.
Im glad to see a technology advancing on the oldest and most limiting factor of our displays. Someone had to be first. Wide gamut source WILL follow and the calibrators will be happy again. In the meantime the sex appeal of LED colors will be hard for many to pass up except to the nut and bolt counters. The argument it is not accurate may be a tough one to win considering we see these colors in everyday life.

I strongly disagree. As I mentioned earlier, there is nothing new about heavily oversaturated primaries - it's basically expected of higher-end flatscreens by now. On those, it looks like crap. Sure, it sells, but I hope you're not asking anyone to stop caring about proper image quality, and just buy whatever the majority is buying? I have a very hard time seeing the advantages of following the same mistakes as are being made in the flatscreen market. LED projection is NOT the frontrunner in more saturated primaries, flatscreens have had that a long time.

However, I do agree that with proper evolution in source material, we could see significant improvements, and I would find that improvement to be much more valuable than, say, improvements in contrast. Until then, I fear that we will see a saturation-race between companies that can potentially take us to a point where the projector-market gets similar to the flatscreen market: Those who actually deliver proper picture quality, is driven out of the market by whoever delivers the most saturated picture without _totally_ messing it up. Just like Panasonic has driven Pioneer out of the flatscreen market. If even the most hardcore of enthusiasts start to believe the hype, that is what will happen, because then there will be no market for accurate pictures.

The thing I find incredibly amusing, is that one of the most discussed issues the last couple of years on this forum has been the oversaturated primaries of the JVC's. While some don't find the oversaturation as bothersome as others, very few that I know of use the oversaturated primaries in reality, most dial down the color control, dialing down saturation and brightness of the colors to some degree that they find comfortable. And this is on a PJ that actually has a kind of oversaturation that is much less bothersome than on a lot of flatscreens outthere, because it is fairly linear. So, we have a projector that is actually showing people a hint of what we can expect from LED based projector (in this specific regard, I expect LED/DLP to be superior in many other ways). But they end up not using it. Now we're supposed to be super-excited about even MORE oversaturated primaries? What, the algorithms that are supposed to make use of the oversaturation has suddenly changed from useless to magnificent overnight? Me not thinks so mister.

But, to not seem purely negative, I do find the technology very exciting, and expect it to revolutionarize the projector market. One thing that I have been thinking about, that I haven't seen anyone discussing yet, is the possible combination of an LED projector with something like Sony's black screen technology. I may be mistaken, but as my understanding goes, the main reason that this tech hasn't taken off, is that UHP lamps and different PJ technologies simply vary too much in color spectrum, to make the black screen effective. Wouldn't LED offer a much tighter and stable spectrum of each primary, making it possible to create a much more effective black screen? If I'm right in this theory, It could possibly be the biggest boost to the front projection market in history. Even if it still doesn't match the quality of a white screen in a dark room, it could still do wonders for the casual users, who don't have a dedicated theatre. I say this without ever having actually seen a black screen in action though, but input on this would be appreciated.

Everyone has a point of view and an agenda. Those in the industry and those who calibrate for a living will sit in a box and defend the standards, with good reason. I am a dealer but most important to me I am an enthusiast who is lucky to attend private 35mm film screenings. There is talk about over saturation etc but I can tell you LED can offer a image far more pleasing and closer to film then any current technology with accurate skin tone. The projector I have tested has a very powerful CMS.
I do not mean to offend anyone on this topic we are all in this together and accuracy is indeed very important. This topic can be seen as subjective to many and I do not expect everyone to agree with me but the time I have spent with LED has proven the most exciting technology Ive spent time with in years so momma dont take my LED away:)

They most certainly are brighter. The LEDs don't need to run constantly at high output, that depends on the image requirement in terms of brightness and color composition.

There are at least 3 companies involved in 3 chip LED. There are also 3 matrix single chip designs as well.


Hope this helps.

Well, I guess you could still cycle them and get higher output relying on persistence of vision as you would with a single chip. Didn't think of that, but if you can do it with single chip, shouldn't be any reason why on a triple chip. Or perhaps they have more bulbs firing at the same time.

I would be more concerned with the life time. I bought 6 LED night lights that claimed a 7 year lifetime ~50K hours. Six months later they are so dim I will have to replace them very soon. Also I look at the LED signal lights with half the LEDs burned out in a very short time. I will wait on this for a while.

Well, I guess you could still cycle them and get higher output relying on persistence of vision as you would with a single chip. Didn't think of that, but if you can do it with single chip, shouldn't be any reason why on a triple chip. Or perhaps they have more bulbs firing at the same time.More LEDs might work. And if you don't care about D65 color balance you could run the red and blue harder with 3 chip. From what I've seen it looks like green is the limiting factor for D65 for LEDs and with the Vivitek the green is run about half the time and I believe I read that it can be run at 180% if it is only on 50% of the time. So, having the capability to run it a little harder (e.g., 100% for 100% of the time) may help with 3 chip over 1 chip, but doesn't look like a whole lot from that factor at D65.

Of course, with a single chipper they could just run all 3 colors as hard as they will go (including at the same time) for a peak white measurement. I expect business units to have a way to do that, or close to it.

I also don't know how different light losses from different parts of the system will affect things between 1 chip and 3 chip, but in any case it does seem like 1 chip will close the gap as far as lumens it is capable of versus 3 chip with LED lighting instead of lamp lighting, other than things like using multiple LEDs (where 3 chip may have some advantage allowing them to do that easier, but I don't know if that is the case).

--Darin

I think thhe color gamut width thing Allen is so taken with is that film has a much wider color gamut than our present video projector standards. So if you now have a projector with a 25% wider gamut than our present standards (but my dear still not as wide as film?) you can make say red more closer to the red one sees in a film. That is what I think Allen sees and likes.The pronlem which will not change because it will be years before sources might change, is the encoding of the colors on the source. There is no encoding and it has to be done by guessing (algs). Moreover, the wider the gamut, the bit encoding depth is the same. The same number of bit steps has to cover a wider area making stuff within the old gamut less accurate. Its all in the algs and it means most will be wrong. But if you like it, its your money. For all but an internet millionaire, this LED technology is probably still a generation off before seriously considering a purchase (until some deficiencies in comparison to bulb technology are removed). Next year,the cost of a good LED machine will be what it is today but the machines will really be ready to challenge bulbs in most if not all (ultimate brightness) areas.

Everyone has a point of view and an agenda. Those in the industry and those who calibrate for a living will sit in a box and defend the standards, with good reason. I am a dealer but most important to me I am an enthusiast who is lucky to attend private 35mm film screenings. There is talk about over saturation etc but I can tell you LED can offer a image far more pleasing and closer to film then any current technology with accurate skin tone.

I'll, believe it when I see it. As I said, there is more to accurate color than skin tones. If grass looks like neon, who cares about skin tones?

I am a dealer as well. What I want is to be able to provide people with good pictures. If a manufacturer provides a product that delivers this without the need of calibration, all the more power to them - I'll just start carrying those, not defend the calibration service. I make a living off calibration services, however I basically consider calibration a necessary evil, not a goal to reach in itself. It's just that there are very few products available that deliver a fairly decent picture without calibration. And those who do, do it because they are fairly accurate oob, not because they deliver something "else" that is in some way better than accurate. I have not seen Runco, DP and Sim2's LED projectors yet, but I remain sceptical, I don't see why they should be able to all of a sudden come up with an algorithm that works, when Pioneer, Panasonic, Samsung, LG, Philips, Sharp, Loewe, Bang & Olufsen, and whoever else is using oversaturated primaries in flatscreens, have failed to do just that. I don't see the difference in what the algorithm needs to do in a LED based projector, or a JVC for that matter, compared to what is already being done in flatscreens. Bang & Olufsen manages to have oversaturated greens, 8500k color temp, and still get decent skin tones. But it still doesn't look right. There's more to color than skin tones.

It has been documented that LED projectors appears to be a 25% brighter than a similar lamp based projector, with the same CIE lumen output. Not any where near 300%...

Could we see that documentation, please?

I thought this thread was going to be about the Runco. My dealer saw one at CEDIA and ordered one. Are there any big advantages to the more expensive model?

How can a CRT be color accurate (right gamut calibrated) and film like as the same time? IMO it is has to do with the purity of the basic colors (3D GAMUT??) not the gamut standards...

How can a CRT be color accurate (right gamut calibrated) and film like as the same time? IMO it is has to do with the purity of the basic colors (3D GAMUT??) not the gamut standards...

Or maybe the "film like" aspect of a CRT has little to nothing to do with colors at all. Certainly higher on/off seems to be one attribute that's shared among projectors that is said to be "film like". So is (relatively) poor sharpness.

I'm not at all a CRT specialist, I jumped into video right when digital displays started to kick off, and never really spent much time with CRT, so this is just throwing a ball up in the air, not a fact, but even if you have theoretically perfect, accurate primaries on a CRT and on a digital, you might still percieve the CRT as more film like, not due to some difference in color, but due to differences in on/off, sharpness, and gamma performance.

I'm not sure how OT this is in this thread, as Runco is one of the companies touting some special algorithm to make use of the extended primaries.

Next up will be 5 color LED
When?

Im glad to see a technology advancing on the oldest and most limiting factor of our displays. Someone had to be first. Wide gamut source WILL follow and the calibrators will be happy again. In the meantime the sex appeal of LED colors will be hard for many to pass up except to the nut and bolt counters. The argument it is not accurate may be a tough one to win considering we see these colors in everyday life. Instead of beating up on this new technology we should re direct efforts demanding wider color gamut originating from the source. You cant stay in a box forever.
AMEN!

Runco is one of the companies touting some special algorithm to make use of the extended primaries.


Ive never seen the Runco so I am not sure what they are doing but I look forward to seeing this machine as well at some point.

The one area I am please with are the additional colors that come along with this new technology. While watching a movie your peripheral vision will pick up on colors ( not dominant ) never noticed before. They catch your eye in a pleasing and refreshing way. Switching back to a calibrated lamp projector its as if someone went in with a parametric EQ and notched out these colors.
I recently screened the 35mm film title "Looney Tunes: Back in Action" (2003) Mixed animation in real world with lots of great colors.
There is a scene where bugs bunny is wearing a Cyan outfit. I also have this in HD. On any lamp projector this Cyan is green. Not even close to the film. On the LED projector his outfit shows up as Cyan. Also, Daffy Duck has very dominant blue and green highlights on the edge of his body through out the film. On lamp projectors these are heavily muted and the wrong color because another color takes over. On the LED machine these colors are back.
This tells us the colors have been maintained in the source but our lamp projectors cannot produce them. I doubt anyone watching this comparison would say the LED looks wrong. In fact comparing LED side by side to a lamp projector my guess most would say the Lamp projector looks incorrect.
Its a real eye opener seeing all of this side by side. Would I now let someone come in and remove the new colors I am seeing because they tell me by 1940s standards its wrong?
Remember that Song "If lovin you ( LED) is wrong I dont want to be right" :)

It is going to be difficult waiting for the next round of LED projectors!

That is an excellent point. The HK effect would be constant if two displays rendered them at the same standardized color calibration. The only way the preceived brightness would change is if one of them had higher level of saturation which can only happen if we deviate from the standard (BD in your example).

Further, HK effect is hue and viewer dependent. Some people don't see much of it, while others notice it more. And, the effect is far more apparent for reds as opposed to yellows. Since people are very senstive to oversaturated reds, I am not sure there is much of a free lunch here. Indeed, the two LED displays I saw (not Runco), both seemed to have oversaturated reds.

While I am excited about development of this new light source, I think we need to wait for proper evaluation of of them to understand what they really can do. There will likely be trade offs here that will come out, as it did for LED backlit flat panels. As Joe Kane would say, "there is something nice about simplicity of a pointing a light source at a mirror that you can't with other means..."

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
I wish I had known about this type of posting. It would have gotten me to 10,000 posts much faster :D.

Come on Peter. If there is something wrong with what I posted, just say so. Can only read so much from a single emoticon....

The beauty of the image of the new led projectors is THAT IT LOOKS LIKE FILM COLOR SPACE.

Guess what? IT IS obvious that the great majority of BD movies retain the original colorimetry of the DCI master. There is no or very little regrading for rec 709 for BD's going on. So the majority of Blue Ray look wrong to anyone with remotely some video experience when viewing this content in pure Rec 709 on a serious machine.

LED color space shown thusfar blows away rec 709 (the VIDEO STANDARD but certainly not the DCI standard with which films are made).

Over the last few weeks you have been pompously looking down on people that may consciously modify an image to look correctly as film, without attempting to go see what these delibarate corrections look like.

You seem to completely rule out the possibility of manipulating colorimetry or whatever else works to make a video IMAGE LOOK LIKE FILM, like if it was some sort of crime.

I personally have the most accurate rec 709 projector on the planet calibrated to 3 nm accuracy with a 30 million dollar TI p7 auto-calibration program designed to make every movie theater in the world look the same (a piece of equipment you chose not to give it's due deference even comparing it to a 16 million color rainbow infested POS).

I believe that I have earned my right to state what good pictures are, it is time to put a stop to glorifying this cretinous half implemented standard. In my enlightened opinion, with the current BD transfers, rec 709 is AMONG the most cretine ways of looking at film content possible.

For sports and other hd content mastered at rec 709. The standard works

Or maybe the "film like" aspect of a CRT has little to nothing to do with colors at all. Certainly higher on/off seems to be one attribute that's shared among projectors that is said to be "film like". So is (relatively) poor sharpness.

I'm not at all a CRT specialist, I jumped into video right when digital displays started to kick off, and never really spent much time with CRT, so this is just throwing a ball up in the air, not a fact, but even if you have theoretically perfect, accurate primaries on a CRT and on a digital, you might still percieve the CRT as more film like, not due to some difference in color, but due to differences in on/off, sharpness, and gamma performance.

I'm not sure how OT this is in this thread, as Runco is one of the companies touting some special algorithm to make use of the extended primaries.

CRT still wins in on/off cr and motion resolution. I think most people who say CRT is film like are referring to motion resolution.

Over the last few weeks you have been pompously looking down on people that may consciously modify an image to look correctly as film, without attempting to go see what these delibarate corrections look like.
Sorry, who has been trying to modify an image to look like film? This is first I hear about that. Are you saying that is what you were doing at CEDIA? If so, the only comment I made was that it would be nice if all exhibitors who are showing projectors to show a test shot or two so that we have some reference to judge the picture quality.

My eyes are decent in judging picture quality but can’t always undo showmanship which may have gone into selecting material to make it hard to find deficiencies in products. If that is “pompously looking down” then you and I disagree on what those words mean.
You seem to completely rule out the possibility that manipulating colorimetry or whatever else works to make a video IMAGE LOOK LIKE FILM, like if it was some sort of crime.
That is not a topic that I have commented on per above. But happy to do so now. And do so very clearly: THERE IS NO MANIPULATION that is acceptable if involves deviating from the reference. None.

The logic is simple. Your display at home is not hooked up to the output of the system at the post house that is generating the source picture. The only way then for the two disconnected systems to reproduce the same colors, is for them to agree on the exact same standard. And that standard for HD television is BT 709. These are the rules of game. Neither side gets to arbitrary change things unilaterally. We would have chaos otherwise.

In addition, the goal is never to achieve the look of film as you state. The goal is to achieve the exact colors that the encoding targeted. Again, this is BT 709. There is no concept of “film” in video standard. There is only a concept of what standard you must attempt to match. If that standard is different from the film, then that is life. Go and advocate a new standard that does things different. But don’t try to mess with one end of the chain thinking you are fixing something because in reality, you are breaking something else.
Guess what? IT IS obvious that the great majority of BD movies retain the original colorimetry of the DCI master. There is no or very little regrading for rec 709 for BD's going on. So the majority of Blue Ray look wrong to anyone with remotely some video experience when viewing this content in pure Rec 709 on a serious machine.
Guess? I am fortunate enough to not have to guess. I know they do not use DCI color space having been involved in creation of the tools and encodings for BD.

But hey, I have been away from the space for a bit so to be sure, I pinged one of the top experts at a major post house which probably produces 20% of BD titles and the same incredulous answer came back. DCI master may be used, but it is color corrected to BT 709 or the image will be wrong (likely too orange).

Note that I am not saying your or others may not prefer different display settings. People watch flat panels in Vivid mode and would find anything else too dull and dim. But as we both know, dull and dim setting is far more accurate. Not saying that your statement rises to the same level of this analogy. But the simple fact that a preference, is not the same as the deviation being right.
I personally have the most accurate rec 709 projector on the planet calibrated to 3 nm accuracy with a 30 million dollar TI p7 auto-calibration program designed to make every movie theater in the world look the same (a piece of equipment you chose not to give it's due deference even comparing it to a 16 million color rainbow infested POS).
And I am typing this on a computer which cost > $1B to build. Yes, you read that right. I said “billion” with a B! Actually, Intel probably spent even more money developing the CPU in my computer over the last 30 years :D. So let’s put aside statistics of no value such as your $30M development cost above.

Now, you seem to be in this defensive mood thinking I have said something bad about your projector. I have not. I have simply commented that you should have shown some test images at CEDIA. That’s all. I have no reason to doubt that you showed good images. But please don’t try to spin things like that $30M number as proof point. TI licenses their calibration software to anyone and Samsung did the same for their PJ (which Joe enhanced).

As to your comment regarding Joe’s projector being “POS”, my head is down when people in the industry use such language. Kudos to your passion in believing what you sell/support. But please be a bit more professional in discussing what is by all reports, a great effort by Joe to improve a consumer projector to produce an accurate image. The fact that a single chip DLP projector produces strobing effect is neither here nor there. A consumer 3-chip design has its own set of issues which I am sure you know.
I believe that I have earned my right to state what good pictures are, it is time to put a stop to glorifying this cretinous half implemented standard. In my enlightened opinion, with the current BD transfers, rec 709 is the most cretine way of looking at film content possible.
There is no question that we live with ancient and highly limiting standards. No one is here to defend 709, 8-bit color, or 4:2:0 sampling for that matter. Heaven knows that many of us wish BDA would concentrate on adding these capabilities to new BD profile as opposed to 3-D which while having higher marketing value, is of much less substance to many of us who strive for better fidelity.

You say you have earned the right to state what picture is good as if others have not earned the same. My group at Microsoft designed HD Photo image format which supported a new color space, scRGB, which puts all of these color spaces to shame since it even including spectrum that you can’t see! (Yes, that is important.) So please don’t position those of us who say exaggerated colors are wrong as if we are against wider gamut. We are all a fan of such things. But the fix is not to make our displays show wrong colors.

As I mentioned, you are welcome to view BDs with your own color standard. If that makes you happy that is all that should count for you. What makes me happy is if everything matches what was used in the post house to create that BD title which is indeed the good old BT 709. I don't turn up the mid-range in my audio system to hear vocals better even if that might be truer to the original presentation. I am not going to cook the colors here to do the same.

At the end of the day I offer a reference Rec 709 setting and other settings (which I can't go into because of attentive copymongers) for the user to pick their poison.

It's all about fleshtones and photorealism (you can tell by looking at a transfer that was not color corrected because THE IMAGES HAVE A BLUEISH TINT).

I assure you the fleshtones are way more realistic with the option b set of presets in the great majority of transfers . Thusfar no projector had this kind of horsepower to be able to give you the most precise rec 709 and, a this other very special feature the contrast enhanced DCI projectors have.

While Joe decided to make his projector very rec 709 accurate for a uhp projector, others make their own sauce, every single other projector manufacturer tweaks their product to sell. I pride myself in offering both options with a high level of accuracy in both cases.

Amir

I am not as technical as some of you gurus and maybe this is not a 709 issue but more a lamp projector limitation. The following to me seams common sense. Feed a LED projector BD and the additional colors I see on film now show up and in the correct place. If these colors where not in the source the LED projector would not know what color to reproduce nor where to map them.
Moving beyond this I want the ability to display an image thats original to the original source. If the movie originated from film then that to me is the target. If the CMS on LED allow accurate 709 calibration and the additional colors still show up ( I do not think you can turn these colors off ? ) then LED will expose performance from our current source not yet seen from lamp projectors.
I like what I am seeing with LED. I hope the additional color space gives incentive to bring "Deep Color" to market faster.

It's all about fleshtones and photorealism (you can tell by looking at a transfer that was not color corrected because THE IMAGES HAVE A BLUEISH TINT).
This rings very true for me coming from motion picture production. Although a cinematographer respects the necessity for display accuracy in the telecine/DI suite, we realize that there are many variables in production and possibly some with commercial exhibition. Much hubbub was discussed over color inaccuracies of the JVC RS1 when it came out. I found myself less sensitive to this because variations with some colors in negative film stocks are the norm (for instance Kodak verses Fuji). If those are not an issue to your production, you compartmentalize, priortitize, and move on to making the movie. First priority for most of us is the actors' faces, with contrast control a close second. Printer lights and telecine work are established to deliver the desired fleshtones and brightness and contrast intended with the photography...which is what CINERAMAX is saying. Zero attention is paid to how green the lawn is if those things are correct. :) The kind of inside joke among filmmakers is "If they (the audience) are noticing that (how green the lawn is instead of the actors), we're in trouble."

I can't tell you what studio uses what meter or what standard [ though I did like the above comment about the color of the grass... ] nor can even claim to have the slightest portion of technical merit others have on this forum.

What I can say without a doubt was the the Cineramax/Barco image was the best I have seen even given the enivironment. With that said it is hard to argue theory or practice of its creator.

Now this is a Runco thread not a debate on the size of one's technical Johnson...

Boys be nice. With that said I'd be interested to hear what those thought of the Runco LED vs. Projection Desgin, SIM2 and Digital Projection. I did not see the Runco I wish now I snuck in the door behind Dennis...

"The kind of inside joke among filmmakers is "If they (the audience) are noticing that (how green the lawn is instead of the actors), we're in trouble.""

Sometimes the actors look at the grass too :)

So, anyone take delivery of one these bad boys yet? I'm being told that mine will not ship until the week of November 23rd, but I know they started officially shipping last week.

Next up will be 5 color LED.

I'm not sure it's necessary. One of the cool things about LED is they can mix the primaries during any of the "flashes" to create the the equivalent light of a dedicated color segment on a traditional wheel. Since the mixing is electronic, they can vary the cadence, exposure, and even presence of each mixed segment of the fly depending on content. They could have colors near as pure as 3 chip without the disadvantages of multiple chips.

Additional colors might give a brightness advantage, particularly with a yellow LED.

Next up will be 5 color LED.

What are the other two colours?

What are the other two colours?

Cyan and Yellow

5 color LED is on target to hit flat panel first. Im hoping it expands to FP.

5 color LED is on target to hit flat panel first. Im hoping it expands to FP.

Not that I don't appreciate the added possibility of additional color hues.....but shouldn't the manufacturers try to get the rest of the picture right?

As far as I know, we can't see the majority of the hues available with the five color process.

Cyan and Yellow

Why not add magenta and round it out?

Duvetyne, are you being facetious? Red, Green and Blue are additive primary colors. Cyan, Mageneta and Yellow are subtractive primary colors. Subtractive colors create an image by absorbing light; not exactly what you would want to be using in a projector where you are trying to create the image by additive color means.

5 color LED is on target to hit flat panel first. Im hoping it expands to FP.

That's good news. I don't understand why companies are not adopting multi-colour LEDs from the word go as there are LEDs currently available whose native colour is white and they are capable of displaying multiple colours as per requirement.

They are much better in displaying multi-colour content as opposed to RGB LEDs displaying the same thing IMO but I am not talking from a front/rear projection perspective here so there may be a few technical things that we don't know.

Duvetyne, are you being facetious? Red, Green and Blue are additive primary colors. Cyan, Mageneta and Yellow are subtractive primary colors. Subtractive colors create an image by absorbing light; not exactly what you would want to be using in a projector where you are trying to create the image by additive color means.

google 'secondaries'.

Duvetyne, are you being facetious? Red, Green and Blue are additive primary colors. Cyan, Mageneta and Yellow are subtractive primary colors. Subtractive colors create an image by absorbing light; not exactly what you would want to be using in a projector where you are trying to create the image by additive color means.


Are you serious?
You confusing pigments with light...there's a difference.
Pigments absorb light of different wavelengths, the reflected ligh is the colour you see.
Coloured light mixing is additive.

There are Cyan and Yellow LEDs, and UV/purple, but the only magenta I've seen is a blue LED with a red/pink phosphor.

there are LEDs currently available whose native colour is white

No, there are no native white LED's. White LED's are Blue LED's with a yellow phosphor covering the die. They are not full spectrum either.

They are much better in displaying multi-colour content as opposed to RGB LEDs

I disagree.

Yep, confusing pigments with light.

Fast,

Its OK I've confused some pigs in my day too.

CYAN LEDs? Real CYAN? Never seen any, but I'll take your word that they exist.

To answer my own question (from the Photonicsonline website):

"The new 505 nm aluminum indium gallium nitride (AlInGaN)-based high brightness cyan LED has a minimum power output of 1.2 miliwatts at 20 miliamps. The expected packaged lamp power output for the device is 2.4 miliwatts. High brightness cyan LEDs, which are blue/green in color, are primarily used in traffic signals".

http://www.luxeonstar.com/luxeon-leds-by-color-cyan-c-54_62.php

http://www.luxeonstar.com/luxeon-leds-by-color-cyan-c-54_62.php

eventually leds should cost less than white light sources because you don't have to use a glass blower to make the dam things. Wider color gamut does not mean over saturation if the source supports that gamut

technological speculation aside has anyone on this forum actually seen the Runco unit.

Yes, I have.

I can also attest that a DCI goes through a 709 trim pass before BluRay mastering. There is no "BluRay Master" as far as color goes. REC709 is the HDTV standard and remember these video masters are also used in broadcast TV (HBO, etc). There is sometimes a different formatting used on a BluRay master but that's just editing.

Also CRT is still the reference standard for critical mastering - the Sony BVMD32 & D24. Of course content is also viewed on a native pixel Plasma mainly to look for aliasing and dirt that a CRT can hide. In Hollywood, the most popular replacement technology for CRTs is the Panasonic Plasma with a LUT in front of it. The new Sony broadcast LCD monitors were rejected by the post community as a whole. They simply are not good enough. Neither is the Plasma but it's the closest to the CRT we and others have found. and at $4000, it's not a huge investment to dump when 40inch OLED comes along.

I can also attest that a DCI goes through a 709 trim pass before BluRay mastering. There is no "BluRay Master" as far as color goes.What about gamma? Do you know if there is adjustment made from the 2.6 of DCI and what the target would be when doing this in general? I know some mastering may aim for different gamma than other, but I have been curious whether anything gets released on Blu-ray that just retained the DCI gamma and what it is otherwise (as there is some debate about whether 2.2 is right).

From talking to some people in Hollywood it sounds like the CRT BVMs have become pretty rare.

As far as the Panasonic plasmas, do you know what box is used for the LUT before it in general? I'm curious what kind of cost there is there as I know there are some plasmas in Hollywood with no LUT box to get to REC.709.

Thanks,
Darin

....The new Sony broadcast LCD monitors were rejected by the post community as a whole.....

Maybe out in Burbank, but not everywhere else. You are probably referring to the BVM-L230? That's actually the old-new monitor. The new-new monitor is the BVM-L231, which you probably haven't seen. Saw one running last week....very nice. You can get pretty far off axis and it still looks good. No motion artifacts either, because they have sped-up the panel.

Sony just laughs when you bring up the "CRT thing". They cite an A-B demo test they ran (for the colorists) called: guess which one is the CRT? Behind the cloth was an L230 and a D24. You could only see the monitor face/screen but nothing else. They asked all the "experts" to identify which one was the CRT. Guess what? They couldn't reliably identify the CRT. What you are dealing with is an anti LCD attitude or bias that -some- of the colorists have, and they just don't want to let go of!

The 230 could still be picked out in such blind testing, done at IBC and NAB. Of course it was 2006/7 when the L230 was first shown. Sony stopped making CRTs in 2006 (or is time flying by fast and was it 2005, have to look at the receipt for our Sony TV as we got it just after Sony halted CRT production. EDIT:, yup 2004 Japan, 2006 US/Europe, 2008 Singapore/Malaysia/India), and kept people waiting on a replacement for well over a year. Many complains were heard it was too little at too much. It also was too small, and the then promised 42 inch was too large people complained in the trades.

....Of course it was 2006/7 when the L230 was first shown....

That's the point. It's 2009 going on 2010, and everyone is still spewing out the same 3-year old prejudice. The technology has improved. Sony isn't the only game in town, either. There's Cinetal, TV Logic, Barco, JVC, Panasonic, two German brands that I can't remember the name of, HP Dreamcolor and you could also probably even use an Eizo CG-241.

A fairly well known colorist out in Burbank area has commented on the deficiencies of the marvelous 32 inch Sony CRT, where he claims that it can't even do 1000 lines of horizontal resolution after the tube has aged a little. That's what you really want to have your BD material graded on!

....Of course it was 2006/7 when the L230 was first shown....

That's the point. It's 2009 going on 2010, and everyone is still spewing out the same 3-year old prejudice. The technology has improved. Sony isn't the only game in town, either. There's Cinetal, TV Logic, Barco, JVC, Panasonic, two German brands that I can't remember the name of, HP Dreamcolor and you could also probably even use an Eizo CG-241.

A fairly well known colorist out in Burbank area has commented on the deficiencies of the marvelous 32 inch Sony CRT, where he claims that it can't even do 1000 lines of horizontal resolution after the tube has aged a little. That's what you really want to have your BD material graded on!

Like I said, the Panasonic pro plasma is the CRT monitor replacement of choice these days. Encore Video (Ascent), Laser Pacific (Kodak) , Post Group, Modern Videofilm, Technicolor, just to name a few top houses all use them. LCD is simply not acceptable as a mastering monitor in these circles.

Of course the CRT never really was true HD. That's why material is QCed on Plasma where we have a 1:1 pixel match. But color decisions on high end video mastering and eposodic TV are still timed on CRT in all the facilities mentioned above. Dailies timing, editing, effects, dust busting have all moved to Plasma or even LCD on the low end. What we and I'm sure others have done is to pull good CRT monitors out of service in these less critical areas to preserve them for high end color timing.

Sony just laughs when you bring up the "CRT thing".

Yeah it's pretty funny that the top post and mastering houses in the vortex of the film industry don't use their "high end" LCD moinitor. Sony really screwed up! They were too over confident the LCD would cut it. It doesn't. They should have moved CRT production to a country that has lax EPA rules. The wait is now for OLED to get to the 40in size.


To answer the LUT question, we use the Black Magic unit as it's a $700 box. It's adequate for the job.

They cite an A-B demo test they ran (for the colorists) called: guess which one is the CRT? Behind the cloth was an L230 and a D24. You could only see the monitor face/screen but nothing else. They asked all the "experts" to identify which one was the CRT. Guess what? They couldn't reliably identify the CRT.I'm guessing that they didn't show the darkest scenes. It is easy to hide a bad on/off CR (total range) by just showing brighter material, but get into a dark scene and without tricks like a dynamic gamma it is pretty hard to hide a very gray black level (like one of the LCD BVMs I saw had). The on/off CR was worse than some older and cheap LCDs. Pick a spot for 10% video level and it is pretty easy to figure out how little CR will be left with less than 500:1 on/off CR to start with when the only stuff in a scene is below 10% video level (which is below 1% ft-lamberts or nits level of 100% video level with normal gamma). Even scenes that go up to 20% video level don't have much range left with normal gamma and under 500:1 on/off CR and there are definitely darker scenes than those.

--Darin

To answer the LUT question, we use the Black Magic unit as it's a $700 box. It's adequate for the job.Thanks. That is much less than I thought it would be. Is that with HD SDI?

--Darin

I'm guessing that they didn't show the darkest scenes. It is easy to hide a bad on/off CR (total range) by just showing brighter material, but get into a dark scene and without tricks like a dynamic gamma it is pretty hard to hide a very gray black level (like one of the LCD BVMs I saw had). The on/off CR was worse than some older and cheap LCDs. Pick a spot for 10% video level and it is pretty easy to figure out how little CR will be left with less than 500:1 on/off CR to start with when the only stuff in a scene is below 10% video level (which is below 1% ft-lamberts or nits level of 100% video level with normal gamma).

--Darin

IMO, Sony really embarassed themselves over the issue. When the first production models came out and were promptly rejected they resorted to all kinds of silly ideas. Like we need to change the reference light level in the room, you know brighten up the room so the blacks look deeper. They suggested SMPTE needs to lok at a new black level standard! Then they proposed an LED mirror box contraption could be built in so that you need to adjust your head until both LEDs disappear to make sure you are on the optimum viewing axis.

Thanks. That is much less than I thought it would be. Is that with HD SDI?

--Darin

Yes it has dual link HDSDI inp and single link HDSDI out as well as DVI. It also has a six channel AES de-embedder to RCA jack outlets - perfect for feeding a consumer AV receiver with direct 5.1 inputs.

Now the bad part, the input EQ is not up to par. I looked and don't recognize the chips they are using. They need to be close to the source, say within 10 feet. If at the end of a long cable run, they have dropout problems.

....Of course it was 2006/7 when the L230 was first shown....

That's the point. It's 2009 going on 2010, and everyone is still spewing out the same 3-year old prejudice. The technology has improved. Sony isn't the only game in town, either. There's Cinetal, TV Logic, Barco, JVC, Panasonic, two German brands that I can't remember the name of, HP Dreamcolor and you could also probably even use an Eizo CG-241.


There's Vutrix from the UK, also one of the early broadcast LCD manufacturers to put a glass filter in front of regular LCD's. These used to be marketed by Frontniche, wich seems to have switched to Spanish monitor maker Albiral. One of the German vendors would be http://www.tamuz.tv/, what's the other one? There's Penta http://www.ibc.org/page.cfm/Action=Exhib/ExhibID=1154/loadSearch=13320_6344?

Is Ikegami back into this field?

Even scaler manufacturers have jumped onto CRT replacement monitors, Teranex a few years ago, which was quite a bog down standard LCD monitor, and last year TV One.

Is this Eizo also up to par?

EIZO Unveils First Post-Production And Broadcasting Monitor For Both Reference And Editing
April 20, 2009

Eizo Nanao Technologies Inc. today announced the ColorEdge CG232W, a full high-definition 22.5-inch LCD monitor for broadcast and post-production that can be used for both reference and editing work.

The ColorEdge CG232W is the first monitor for post-production and broadcasting to offer this dual functionality. Studio professionals can now conduct all their work on one monitor whereas they previously needed both a master monitor for reference (playback) and a desktop monitor for editing. This delivers significant cost savings while eliminating the problem of trying to match colors between different monitors.

The ColorEdge CG232W comes with multiple input support including BNC × 2 (SD-SDI/HD-SDI × 2 or dual-link SDI × 1), DVI-D, and D-Sub to facilitate direct connection to broadcast and studio sources as well as desktop PCs.

The monitor uses a high-quality IPS (in-plane switching) panel with a native resolution of 1920× 1200, a wide color gamut, and 176° viewing angles. The wide color gamut allows the ColorEdge CG232W to reproduce color spaces used in broadcasting such as PAL/SECAM, SMPTE-C, and HDTV. A 3D LUT (look-up table) features previewing of how color will be reproduced on the final film print. 10-bit simultaneous display means more than 1 billion colors can be shown on the screen at once. This is 64 times the colors supported by standard 8-bit display and virtually eliminates color and grayscale banding.

16-bit internal processing produces smooth display of grayscale tones. This brings out a high level of detail, especially in dark areas of an image which are typically problematic for LCD monitors to display. To counteract the brightness and chroma uniformity errors that are characteristic of all LCD panels, EIZO has equipped the ColorEdge CG232W with its Digital Uniformity Equalizer (DUE) function. DUE ensures that the entire screen will be practically uniform at each gray level from 0 to 1,023.

EIZO’s ColorNavigator calibration software is bundled with the ColorEdge CG232W and allows for setting the target values for brightness, white point, and gamma. ColorNavigator works with a measurement device to directly utilize the monitor’s 3D LUT for accurate hardware calibration in less than five minutes. To ensure optimum colors straight out of the box, EIZO calibrates each unit of the ColorEdge CG232W at its factory in Japan to produce a gamma curve of 2.2. An adjustment certificate is included in the packaging to verify the results.

…more than 1 billion colors can be shown on the screen at once.

Perhaps a nit, but how can a display with ~2.3 million pixels (1920x1200) show 1 billion colors at once? Marketroid hype.

Dave

Also CRT is still the reference standard for critical mastering - the Sony BVMD32 & D24. Of course content is also viewed on a native pixel Plasma mainly to look for aliasing and dirt that a CRT can hide. In Hollywood, the most popular replacement technology for CRTs is the Panasonic Plasma with a LUT in front of it.

What does the Panasonic plasma do better than the professional 9G Pioneer models which have lower black levels?

One of the more fascinating new LED driven flat panel is TMOS (Time-Multiplexed Optical Shutter) technology from Uni-Pixel Displays, Inc. (http://www.unipixel.com/home.htm)

Some animation videos here;
Invention – TMOS is a completely new TV technology that should be more energy efficient, cheaper to manufacture and have longer life than LCD screens. (http://blogs.howstuffworks.com/2009/10/22/invention-tmos-is-a-completely-new-tv-technology-that-should-be-more-energy-efficient-cheaper-to-manufacture-and-have-longer-life-than-lcd-screens/)

TMOS-Unipixel Whitepaper.pdf (http://www.prad.de/download/TMOS_-_Unipixel_Whitepaper.pdf)

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/5586/tmosunipixel1.jpg

What does the Panasonic plasma do better than the professional 9G Pioneer models which have lower black levels?


I'm not familiar with that model. We did look at consumer Kuro's and found the Panasonic color gamut was easier to pull in. I'm not the color scientist on staff and don't know all the details.

AFAIK, Pioneer is out of the Plasma business?

Yup you'll be lucky to find a 60, there are a few left of the cheaper version of the 50", at least overhere. Pioneer stopped making TVs some time ago. Some IP and staff moved on to Panasonic.

Coolscan thanks for the whitepaper link, hadn't come across any such info myself yet. Unipixel has been having a marketing/pr push over the past month, or two.

Glimmie

Where have you been hiding lately? I knew if I made a few choice comments, I could open the flood gates and glean a few more facts on the subject matter from you ....it's all elementary psychology -:)

As you may recall from previous discussion, I'm using a JVC product, so I'm not exactly trying to promulgate Sony's product line here. Higher resolution LCD panels, like my JVC DT, have a habit of showing nasty things like edge ringing that seem to be softened in a rather serindipitous manner on the other display technologies. CRTs, in particular, act like gaussian LPF on the video stream, which quite efficiently shaves those nasty edges off. Nothing wrong with using the CRT for color grading decisions, but they just don't cut it for other critical HD display purposes.

We have a bunch of those Panasonic industrial plasma units where I work, and my overall impression is that they tend to soften the image a little bit, somewhat akin to the CRTs. Maybe, that's why everyone "likes" them. Considering that the majority of BD consumers are probably viewing their material on LCD panels, and knowing how readily they show those nasty edge warts, I just don't think it is a good approach to professionally master this type of program material and not monitor it (at least in some stage of production) on the same type of display technology that the consumer majority is using. That's just my 2 cents.

ps - don't hold your breath for OLED. Remember the FED panels that were going to show-up summertime. Where are they?

donaldk

Quato is the other vendor if I remember correctly. The Eizo monitor that I mentioned was designed for prepress and publishing purposes, but probably would work ok as a video monitor. I have seen the unit in operation over at Calumet Photo, and it sure does display those flesh tones!

I'm not familiar with that model. We did look at consumer Kuro's and found the Panasonic color gamut was easier to pull in. I'm not the color scientist on staff and don't know all the details.
AFAIK, Pioneer is out of the Plasma business?
Yes, last chance to get a 60 inch Pro 9G Kuro. I managed to find one in Europe. I expect to keep it till OLED in that size is here and affordable.

Glimmie

I just don't think it is a good approach to professionally master this type of program material and not monitor it (at least in some stage of production) on the same type of display technology that the consumer majority is using. That's just my 2 cents.



And that's exactly what we do. The Plasmas are probably used more within the job than the CRT. But the CRT remains the choice for color decisions - at least for now until the last of the tubes die.

Like I said, the Panasonic pro plasma is the CRT monitor replacement of choice these days.

I'm surprised they are not using the Pioneer KRP500M, given that it is capable of "textbook" calibration and has substantially better (very close to CRT-class) black level compared to the Panasonics.

For video compression, LCD displays are preferred. Their pixel structure tends to magnify blocking artifacts a bit more and they do not use dithering as Plasma does. The latter is important when you are sitting 12 inches from 40+ inch display and can see that artifact quite clearly.

Elevated black level is not an issue either as you many times the display is run that way on purpose to see low level compression artifacts which would otherwise not be visible on calibrated sets. Since consumer displays for the most part are not calibrated, it is important to QC the work that way.

As for Sony, yes, I was shocked when they started promoting those LCDs at professional shows like NAB. Their black level was just awful. Slapping a Pro model number on an otherwise consumer panel doesn't make it an instant replacement for CRTs, even if it does have higher resolution. Admittedly though, I have not tracked their product as of late.

"http://www.luxeonstar.com/luxeon-led...an-c-54_62.php"

I looked at these and white for general lighting; I'm surprised at the cost, ~$.25/L.

Seems mighty pricey for lighting a screen or a home.

Considering the price, the Blackmagic HDLink looks like a pretty good rig. One thing I noted is that the gamma correction in their LUT application can only synthesize a single-valued power curve (simple monotonic curve shape). Flat panel monitors (LCD & plasma) typically do not exhibit simple monotonic shaped gamma characteristics, which means that they cannot be completely corrected with the HDLink LUT. The IRIDAS .ilut lookup table format also does not appear to support anything other than a single valued power curve. Gamma correction in my JVC (and other reference grade LCD monitors) is done piecewise with a large number of steps, which allows it to iron-out wrinkles, bumps, dips and other pecular shapes in the actual transfer characteristic.

[QUOTE=amirm;17574896]For video compression, LCD displays are preferred. Their pixel structure tends to magnify blocking artifacts a bit more and they do not use dithering as Plasma does. The latter is important when you are sitting 12 inches from 40+ inch display and can see that artifact quite clearly.[\QUOTE]

Why would colorists sit 12" from a 40" display? I would think that they would want to subtend the same visual angle as they did with one of the industry-standard CRT displays. That would require sitting *way* further back than 12" and would render dithering a moot issue.

Anyway...If you sit close enough to a reference CRT, you can see texture from the shadow mask or aperture grille artifacts. But presumably colorists don't do that either.

Why would colorists sit 12" from a 40" display?
They have workstations that the operate from. So the display is setup as you would your computer display. Same way people setting editing bays.

I would think that they would want to subtend the same visual angle as they did with one of the industry-standard CRT displays. That would require sitting *way* further back than 12" and would render dithering a moot issue.
They use the display as an analytical tool. The further you sit, the less visible artifacts become. They are not trying to "watch" the movie but rather, "examine" the movie being encoded. So field of view is not a concern. But being able to see an artifact in a small part of the image is.

Imagine trying to find blocking artifacts in a 4 pixel by 4 pixel block of an advanced video codec. If you sit far enough back as to not see dithering noise, you will likely not see those four pixels being over quantized some, making them line up and be visible distortion that you could correct.

Anyway...If you sit close enough to a reference CRT, you can see texture from the shadow mask or aperture grille artifacts. But presumably colorists don't do that either.
The distance is the same as if they had a CRT for the same application. The distance is far enough that LCD pixel structure is not visible (same as your CRT reference). I can tell you that using LCDs is far easier than CRT or Plasma. Using the latter two means missing some artifacts that would be visible for some viewers.

Why would colorists sit 12" from a 40" display? I would think that they would want to subtend the same visual angle as they did with one of the industry-standard CRT displays. That would require sitting *way* further back than 12" and would render dithering a moot issue.

Anyway...If you sit close enough to a reference CRT, you can see texture from the shadow mask or aperture grille artifacts. But presumably colorists don't do that either.

Armin is talking about "bit stream QC". This is a slightly different process than the color correction or mastering phase which comes first. The viewing distance from a 40in is about 3 feet in a typical color correction suite. In our QC suites we have a 40in Plasma on the wall and a 24in JVC LCD up close. Both are used in looking for different artifacts. But at this time no high level compression has taken place yet. The mastering phase is to produce a close to perfect video tape master (or file). It is an uncompressed dataf file or midely compressed videotape. There are no compression artifacts to consider.

Now when the DVD authoring and encodeing take over there are different QC paramaters. You know the material is already color corrected and free of artifacts so now you need to make sure you don't add any or at least minimize the damage from high compression ratios. The DVD authoring and encoding is often done by different facilities than the mastering.

NHK did considerable research on HDTV viewing practice and came up with the 3:1 rule for 1080 line formats. Basic recommendation is to sit back at 3 times the picture height. The senior colorist at one of the big three out in Hollywood said he likes to sit back at roughly 1.5 times the picture height when he is grading, so he can see all the little details that might otherwise slip through the cracks. I was reading an interesting IRE paper from way back when, subject being focusing acuity (ability to tell whether an image is in focus). It turns out that maximum focusing acuity occurs when you are viewing at approx 7 times the picture height! Shows you one of the potential hazards of sitting too close.

I have one in my store as of last week. First impressions are pretty good. It's not meant for anything much larger than 110" 16X9. Gotta keep the ambient light down. Black levels are good and it seems to me to have a nice "film like" look. Perhaps maybe a tad soft looking in overall detail but still plenty sharp. Just early impressions, need more time to tweak.

Ive seen a number of LED demos now. I never saw anything that gave the impression of being 3 times as bright as it was.

That would have been me giving the presentation. It was the projectiondesign kroma, the final production piece. It was balanced to perfect REC.709 with a DeltaE of <1 for all six colors. No tricks. Seriously. 6.62 FtL measured with my Minolta CS-2000A and backed up with a Minolta LS-100.

No trick material. BD for sure, played not even at 24p, but 60 (my mediabox had developed a hiccup at 24). All BD rips.

I'm not saying that I wouldn't want more output. But not too shabby for a first run.

Dan is correct. I was in a demo he did with his former employer. If you recall I was the tall fat guy...