Just saw that Sim2 has the "Sim2 Lumis 3D" posted on their website now. It is a stack of 2 Lumis projectors.

What I find remarkable is that they claim up to 9,000 lumens of light output. It seems they dropped the contrast ratio to 3,000 on/off and I don't see mention of any dyamic contrast ratio which would indicate they may have removed the dynamic iris.

http://www.sim2usa.com/home/us/node/18303

Just saw that Sim2 has the "Sim2 Lumis 3D" posted on their website now. It is a stack of 2 Lumis projectors.

What I find remarkable is that they claim up to 9,000 lumens of light output. It seems they dropped the contrast ratio to 3,000 on/off and I don't see mention of any dyamic contrast ratio which would indicate they may have removed the dynamic iris.

http://www.sim2usa.com/home/us/node/18303

Sounds like specs of two ProC4's not Lumis.

Maybe Sim2 should have a package that includes a d-box chair or plateform for virtual reality.

Does anyone have any more information about this projector? I have a Lumis and would like to learn more about this 3D stackable solution.

Does anyone have any more information about this projector? I have a Lumis and would like to learn more about this 3D stackable solution.


If you are wondering if you can add (and stack) another Lumis and achieve 3D, the answer (per Sim2) is "no." The package they developed requires the two units and HTPC 3D system (w/glasses) that come with the package. The units are setup one for each eye.


Jim

If you are wondering if you can add (and stack) another Lumis and achieve 3D, the answer (per Sim2) is "no." The package they developed requires the two units and HTPC 3D system (w/glasses) that come with the package. The units are setup one for each eye.


Jim

Really? It looks simply like 2 Lumis's stacked with a 'box' that delivers the 3-D. WHat is in the 3-D Lumis's that wouldn't be inside 2 Lumis's?

Jeff, when I asked Sim2 about the possibility of stacking two regular units I was told "no can do" because in the 3D setup each unit was preconfigured for each separate eye. (Not having Peter's expertise regarding 3D, I went no further in the questioning.:))


Jim

Really? It looks simply like 2 Lumis's stacked with a 'box' that delivers the 3-D. WHat is in the 3-D Lumis's that wouldn't be inside 2 Lumis's?

Its not just whats in it, its also whats taken out. They are not simply 2 standard Lumis units

The aperture has been opened in order to gain maximum light output. This results in the CR drop.

Both units have internal Infitec filters configurable for 2D or 3D.

And that, fans, means that it doesn`t use shutter glasses, it is a passive system with a different infitec filter used in each. And, TA DA, it does not require a polarizing preserving screen since it doesn`t use polarizing filters. It uses Infitec filters and therefore MUST be used with Infitec glasses which are passive glasses using TA DA Infitec filters. These are the filters and glasses used in Dolby 3D theaters. The glasses are narrow band color filters and to get the correct colors we all demand and cherish, a color correction box is required. TA DA. The box Sim2 supplies with it system. And all this from someone who no longer is a Sim2 dealer.

Come-on, any two projectors can do 'passive' 3D, just put them next to eachother, and place a filter before each leans. However the demo's I have seen aren't very convinving.

The advantage of the Infitec system is that a silver screen is not required. The disadvantage is that a color correction box is required. That and the German owners of the patents for the Infitec system and the manufacturers of the filters charge big buck royalties. It is true that any two projectors can be used. But you need to buy the two filters, pair(s) of glasses and a color correction box. Individual parts can be procured from the US importer. Something like $5K for the mess.

to convert the reald side by side format using something like the doremi box over hdmi breaks hdcp rules ( no outboard conversion is allowed), there is no way at the moment to do this processing outside the projector, so to enjoy these projectors one will need a special htpc of some kind, but that leaves out directv in RealD. There are some rough months ahead for those of us figuring out this 3D situation.

So besides the color correction, the Sim2 box must do that. I would assume no conversion is done inside the projectors with each one being fed a split stream, one for each eye.

Yea,not to mention what you may be giving up to get 3D ,with very very little to watch and even less worth watching.

This just isn't going to be any sort of solid upgrade path.


Art

The path is probably the machine Lon purchased.

Sim2 does have a new 3 chip called the Lumis Uno (which is basically a Lumis with a lower power lamp and no DI). I don't know if this is more based on that, but it could be...

Sim2 does have a new 3 chip called the Lumis Uno (which is basically a Lumis with a lower power lamp and no DI). I don't know if this is more based on that, but it could be...Do you have more information on the Lumis Uno?

Not a heck of a lot. From the look of things it is the Lumis without a DI and with a 230 watt lamp rather than a 280 watt (not sure what actual light output would be). On/off is rated at 9000:1 though again I haven't tested. Other than that they seem to be identical (although this is $10k MSRP less money).

Not a heck of a lot. From the look of things it is the Lumis without a DI and with a 230 watt lamp rather than a 280 watt (not sure what actual light output would be). On/off is rated at 9000:1 though again I haven't tested. Other than that they seem to be identical (although this is $10k MSRP less money).Thanks Jason. I didn't see it on the Sim2 site. Is it available now or is this one of the new units latter this year?

Sim2 does have a new 3 chip called the Lumis Uno (which is basically a Lumis with a lower power lamp and no DI). I don't know if this is more based on that, but it could be...

The units for the 3D stack are 280w. They are opened up and maxed out for lumens. The CR is only 3k, so I would imagine they are producing a big increase in output.

A lot more heat and current draw on their power supply. I wonder if the cooling system is the same and ditto for the power supply. If the same I wonder abour long term reliability and evem bulb life. Just wondering.

It is also well known that the size limitations of the current chassis dictated certain compromises in the design of the Lumis projectors. How many more years are they going to ride the current chassis when they clearly need a bigger horse? A new chassis would cost about $400,000 in tooling costs but given how much this projector costs let alone two stripped down one and the box and filters, isn`t it about time to bite the bullet?

"Infitec Technology 3D stereo visualization"

That's the Dolby 3D system:

http://www.edcf.net/edcf_docs/dolby-3d.pdf

Thanks Jason. I didn't see it on the Sim2 site. Is it available now or is this one of the new units latter this year?

They are available now, though it is brand new so I am not surprised it isn't on their site.

The units for the 3D stack are 280w. They are opened up and maxed out for lumens. The CR is only 3k, so I would imagine they are producing a big increase in output.

That ain't it then. :)

From what my dealer tells me, the Uno is similar to the C3X 1080, but it's built on the Lumis chassis. It has no DI and it uses a 260w lamp instead of 280w....2000ANSI instead of 3000; 9,000:1 instead of 35,000:1. Supposedly it still uses DC4 chips. It is $10K less than a Lumis, so that puts it mid-way between the price of an HT3000E and the Lumis.

From what my dealer tells me, the Uno is similar to the C3X 1080, but it's built on the Lumis chassis. It has no DI and it uses a 260w lamp instead of 280w....2000ANSI instead of 3000; 9,000:1 instead of 35,000:1. Supposedly it still uses DC4 chips. It is $10K less than a Lumis, so that puts it mid-way between the price of an HT3000E and the Lumis.

230watt...not 260... Just as an FYI.

230watt...not 260... Just as an FYI.

I got the 260w spec from a SIM2 March Newsletter that was on our dealer's counter. Maybe it's a misprint.

Or mine is a misprint...mine specifically says 230watt...

I'll see if I can get to the bottom of it.

They are available now, though it is brand new so I am not surprised it isn't on their site.Don't want to derail the thread, but are there other new Sim2 projectors available that aren't listed? I understand one or two new Sim2 LED units will be latter this year?

Don't want to derail the thread, but are there other new Sim2 projectors available that aren't listed? I understand one or two new Sim2 LED units will be latter this year?

Logically they should introduce one model above the MICO50 and one below...60/40?....70/30? I guess it depends on how much is added or taken away. The MICO50 would be the mama bear to whatever papa bear and baby bear they may bring out. Didn't Goldilocks prefer the color temperature of the mama bear's projector?

How many new products to you expect from them in a year? The yearly output from them re new models is one or two.

Logically they should introduce one model above the MICO50 and one below...60/40?....70/30? I guess it depends on how much is added or taken away. The MICO50 would be the mama bear to whatever papa bear and baby bear they may bring out. Didn't Goldilocks prefer the color temperature of the mama bear's projector?I had a demo of the MICO 50 four or five weeks ago. The Sim2 rep did say a "bigger" version of the MICO 50 would come in the fall, CEDIA. He said nothing of the "UNO" being available though.

The Sim2 rep did say a "bigger" version of the MICO 50 would come in the fall, CEDIA. He said nothing of the "UNO" being available though.

There's a Mico 60 in the line, as well as a Mico 40 and Mico 20. There's been talk about a stripped down Lumis version at shows in the UK before, so that must be the Uno. I just wonder how this one differs from the original C3X1080... that had a 250W lamp and around 10000:1 on/off CR.

How many new products to you expect from them in a year? The yearly output from them re new models is one or two.

If the rumor mill above is true, then a MICO40, a MICO60, and a Lumis UNO would make 3 new models. A MICO20, if really happening, would make 4.

There's a Mico 60 in the line, as well as a Mico 40 and Mico 20. There's been talk about a stripped down Lumis version at shows in the UK before, so that must be the Uno. I just wonder how this one differs from the original C3X1080... that had a 250W lamp and around 10000:1 on/off CR.

According to a newsletter my dealer received, the UNO is very much like the C3X 1080...9000:1, DC4 chips, 260w lamp, 2000ANSI. It is essentially a Lumis without Dynamic Black and with a less powerful lamp.

Are 3 sets of LEDs with different power ratings coming by the OEM LED supplier? Phatt is it?

Also they are coming with a stack Lumis set up for #D using Infitec filters and a color correction box. that would make 5 new models from Sinm2. I doubt it.

that would make 5 new models from Sinm2. I doubt it.

Well, Jason said the Uno is available already, so that would be one new model.
Three more LED based units, so a total of four LED pjs, were confirmed by Sim2 at the Bristol show earlier this year. They've also confirmed in Bristol that from now on every 1-chip unit will be LED, no more bulbs.

So with three new LED models coming up and the Uno, that's four new models. I can see another one for 3D later this year. They just need something for 3D or otherwise alot of sales will go to DP.

'Tis available...though I don't know on the others...

Got some new info today on the UNO. As Jason has pointed out, it's available already. Spec sheet says >9000:1 and up to 2000 lumens. The usual T1 - T3 lenses are available. 260W lamp, 230W dimmed. No dynamic black and no HOST module available for this. Standard and only color available is high gloss moonlight shadow. Retail is €19.990,- (T1/T2) and €20.990 (T3) for those in europe.

Not seen this myself, I'll try to get a demo. Very interested to see how this compares to DPs upcoming Highlite 260 (also 2000 lumens, but 12k:1).

Got some new info today on the UNO. As Jason has pointed out, it's available already. Spec sheet says >9000:1 and up to 2000 lumens. The usual T1 - T3 lenses are available. 260W lamp, 230W dimmed. No dynamic black and no HOST module available for this. Standard and only color available is high gloss moonlight shadow. Retail is €19.990,- (T1/T2) and €20.990 (T3) for those in europe.

Not seen this myself, I'll try to get a demo. Very interested to see how this compares to DPs upcoming Highlite 260 (also 2000 lumens, but 12k:1).Thanks Stephan. I'm very interested to hear your evaluation of the Uno.

Sim2 Multimedia Extends Lamp Warranty

Sim2 is known for their outstanding Grand Cinema C3X series. Today, the company has announced that they are increasing the lamp warranty on all C3X and C3X LUMIS projectors. The new warranty will run for five years, which is practically unheard of in the projector industry.

http://www.aboutprojectors.com/news/2010/04/15/sim2-multimedia-extends-lamp-warranty/

Got some new info today on the UNO. As Jason has pointed out, it's available already. Spec sheet says >9000:1 and up to 2000 lumens. The usual T1 - T3 lenses are available. 260W lamp, 230W dimmed. No dynamic black and no HOST module available for this. Standard and only color available is high gloss moonlight shadow. Retail is €19.990,- (T1/T2) and €20.990 (T3) for those in europe.

Not seen this myself, I'll try to get a demo. Very interested to see how this compares to DPs upcoming Highlite 260 (also 2000 lumens, but 12k:1).

Well then CEDIA will have some things to show. Without a dynamic black and that lamp wattage wonder how they and DPI are getting the higher on off.

Art

Hi Art. It could be that using the same chassis caused some optical compromises. Also the DPI using a much larger diameter and more expensive lens.

I think using two 3 chip DLP projectors and the Infiltec system probably would result in the best 3D image available. One would get no temporal artifacts and minimal light loss. Still significant but the best or least loss of the competing systems. The biggest gain is because two projectors constant image on are used. The CMS would I think allow full compensation for the narrow band color filtration which is the basis of the Infiltec system. No special screen required. The problem is maximizing the quality of the 2D image. Clearly the single Lumis host would be better for this with its higher on off assisted or otherwise. One is trading needed brightness and giving up on off. For a budget system, the best I thing would be 2 720p DLPs, cannibalizing a pair of Infiltec glasses to get the filters to be placed in front of each projectors and a couple of DVDO boxes to provide the CMS for each machine. Of course another pair of Infiltec glasses would be needed for viewing. All fairly cheap. The best Infiltec glasses are about $500 per pair. The only thing missing would be a box to send each machine the appropriate left or right eye signal.

The best system out of the gate will be the Sim2 solution but it will be very expensive, My guess is about $70K MSRP with say 4 pairs of glasses.

Well then CEDIA will have some things to show. Without a dynamic black and that lamp wattage wonder how they and DPI are getting the higher on off.


They've probably found some tweaks, so around 10k:1 should be possible for Sim2 and DP. Of course the spec sheet says "up to" 2000 lumens, so maybe that's more like 9k:1@1200 lumens and 5k:1@2000 lumens...

The original C3X1080 was in the same CR range, but not as bright. It's also interesting to see that the HT5000E DL is rated at 3500 lumens (not up to!) and >7500:1.

For CEDIA we can expect the Mico 20 and Mico 40, I think the Mico 60 will take till Nov/Dec to arrive. I don't think there will be anything new from DP, as the 260 is supposed to ship this month from what I've been told. Maybe Neil can jump in here with the status of the 260.

For Cedia the one to watch for 3D ingenuity is JVC, remember they use polarization as it is just as part of regular LCOS, apparently they have found a way to using polarization in their favour for brighter 3D.

If they can have two projectors with different polarizations, then you would lose no light going through the polarization, which is good.

While there is a huge group of people that want 3D to be made to work without the glasses, I would just prefer to make the glasses better to eliminate crosstalk. Hell, I would even be willing to have a combination of passive polarization plus shutters if I could get the light blocking to approach 99%.

The JVC panels use polarizers but their 3D system will not require a polarizing preserving screen or polarizer glasses. They will use shutter glasses. The left eye right eye images will not be polarized differently coming out of the projector. They will be flashed temporally and the shutter glasses will be synced to the flashing images of course which of course the shutter for each eye being open less than the image for that eye is on the screen and the glasses themselves having less than a transmissivity of one.

The original C3X1080 was in the same CR range, but not as bright. It's also interesting to see that the HT5000E DL is rated at 3500 lumens (not up to!) and >7500:1.



My 5000 does just under 6400:1 with about 1800 lumens or so so the DL makes sense ,at least in the ball park.I'm wondering if it used a fixed iris.

Art

Hi Art. It could be that using the same chassis caused some optical compromises. Also the DPI using a much larger diameter and more expensive lens.

I think using two 3 chip DLP projectors and the Infiltec system probably would result in the best 3D image available. One would get no temporal artifacts and minimal light loss. Still significant but the best or least loss of the competing systems. The biggest gain is because two projectors constant image on are used. The CMS would I think allow full compensation for the narrow band color filtration which is the basis of the Infiltec system. No special screen required. The problem is maximizing the quality of the 2D image. Clearly the single Lumis host would be better for this with its higher on off assisted or otherwise. One is trading needed brightness and giving up on off. For a budget system, the best I thing would be 2 720p DLPs, cannibalizing a pair of Infiltec glasses to get the filters to be placed in front of each projectors and a couple of DVDO boxes to provide the CMS for each machine. Of course another pair of Infiltec glasses would be needed for viewing. All fairly cheap. The best Infiltec glasses are about $500 per pair. The only thing missing would be a box to send each machine the appropriate left or right eye signal.

The best system out of the gate will be the Sim2 solution but it will be very expensive, My guess is about $70K MSRP with say 4 pairs of glasses.

Mark,
I'm not sure I'm all that interested in 3D yet ,for my theater at least,maybe for the kids for the living room. I just can take a step down in my 2D ,in any way to get it, at least right now.

The budget for a move for me has roughly doubled since we talked before based on just waiting for something I'd want.

I booked a room for CEDIA since finally the boys football games are all scheduled for Wednesdays.


Art

I think I read some where that the DP 260 uses a dynamic iris

Art,

Where is CEDIA this year and where are you staying? I'm thinking of going as well.

Atlanta again. Omni is closest. Shuttles & Taxi's to others. A CEDIA board member told me they were going to have it in a hall that is closer to the Omni than where it was last year. You just about needed a taxi to get to the other side of the place last year.

Cool. Thanks.

What is the MSRP of the LUMIS 3D??

Art,

Where is CEDIA this year and where are you staying? I'm thinking of going as well.
Jeff,
What Scott said. I'm in the Georgian Terrace for now. The Omni has had no rooms for a while.

Has anyone tried a waiting list ?

Art

Jeff,
What Scott said. I'm in the Georgian Terrace for now. The Omni has had no rooms for a while.

Has anyone tried a waiting list ?

Art

I just checked the OMNI and there are rooms. They are non-refundable deposits, however. $359/night.

I have to check as we may be in Europe in Sept. But we may be back before CEDIA. Fortunately, CEDIA is later this year (typically after Labor day).

So, I should know soon and if good, I'll book.

For $359 a night it better come with one of Tiger`s better looking fling ladies.

Art. My comments re 3D set ups was not aimed at you.

The problem with you wanting to up grade is what do you gain for the expenditure? Do you lack brightness for example. Obviously there are brighter projectors out there than the one you have. Assuming you stay with three chip DLP, you can`t get much better convergence than you all ready have. Some machines have adjustments to let a tech get it spot on but yours is so close now, what would you gain? Likewise as one adds brightness the trade off is on off as you well know. The chips haven`t changed so its always going to be a trade off, is a major upgrade to gain a couple of thousand on off worth it anyway?

Now your budget might be approaching a commercial theater 1.2 chip size machine but serving it up the given available software. What`s the point. Things just aren`t improving much anymore. All the better machines pretty much use the same lenses too.

It will be interesting to see the big boys at Cedia. Its less than 5 months away. Maybe I will be blown away by the latest from the big boys. But I would certainly want it to do 3D as well. The bigger the machines the more light and light one needs for 3D. I suspect you have more than enough now for your screen size and 2D. Just rambling.

Kevin Rathbun`s steak for our annual dinner.


Now Cedia this year is Sept 22 through September 26. The show floor is open Thurs through Sunday. Our Rathbun dinner will be then for Friday. The showfloor is really dead on Sunday. Perhaps another dinner on Thursday night. I will fly home saturday night.

I will probably come in on Weds and do the show on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. I missed Atlanta last year so I will do the tourist bit this year wanting to see Coke and the aquarium. That aquarium is not to be missed andwill take up at leat 4 hours.

Yep. It isn't cheap but I don't know how pricing goes in Atlanta...


Do you know the LUMIS 3D MSRP?

Before my sudden need for surgery arose last year, I had all sorts of decent places found say near the medical center for well under $100 per night. Nothing right next store to the convention center but I really don`t care if I am a short train ride or cab ride away.

Jeff. I don`t know the price but assuming its would be something like two of the boxeless stripped down Lumis for say about $52K and then a box for the signal splitting and color correction (add $10K) plus the filters and glasses add $3K. Something between $60K and $70K would be my guess.

.....
Do you know the LUMIS 3D MSRP?



$79,200 msrp.


Jim

Well we can`t talk mail order street for this widely and highly discounted line, but WOW.

I bet Sim2 has some limited time exclusive licensing deal with the german Infiltec company for the consumer market. BUT

Considering how good the Lumis with Host is, you would appear to give up a lot for the high lumen pair used in this set up just to enable one to watch a few 3D movies. Maybe one will have this set up plus a Lumis with Host for 2D. But I think whatever the street will be for the 3D set up, a lot of bucks for 3D.

For $359 a night it better come with one of Tiger`s better looking fling ladies.

Art. My comments re 3D set ups was not aimed at you.

The problem with you wanting to up grade is what do you gain for the expenditure? Do you lack brightness for example. Obviously there are brighter projectors out there than the one you have. Assuming you stay with three chip DLP, you can`t get much better convergence than you all ready have. Some machines have adjustments to let a tech get it spot on but yours is so close now, what would you gain? Likewise as one adds brightness the trade off is on off as you well know. The chips haven`t changed so its always going to be a trade off, is a major upgrade to gain a couple of thousand on off worth it anyway?

Now your budget might be approaching a commercial theater 1.2 chip size machine but serving it up the given available software. What`s the point. Things just aren`t improving much anymore. All the better machines pretty much use the same lenses too.

It will be interesting to see the big boys at Cedia. Its less than 5 months away. Maybe I will be blown away by the latest from the big boys. But I would certainly want it to do 3D as well. The bigger the machines the more light and light one needs for 3D. I suspect you have more than enough now for your screen size and 2D. Just rambling.



I appreciate Mark. I don't know if there is an upgrade path right now as you said ,3D with backsliding in another parameter is not all that appealing since there is little 3D really and is it worth it.

I'll still enjoy looking.

Art

DreamWorks Animation CEO Katzenberg on 3D, not so positive. Article here (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118017453.html?categoryid=10&cs=1).

He is complaining about 2-d to 3d conversions. I wrote about the effects on Clash Of the Titans as seen in a Torus with a New Sony dual lens system here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=18466242&postcount=5).

You could clearly see a double bevel in some edges but the experience was watchable and the movie was not Bad just a very Lossy looking CGI ecosystem with has nothing to do with the 3-D conversion.

I think I read some where that the DP 260 uses a dynamic iris

Looks like you're right about this. DP has changed the Specs of the 260 and there are now two versions. One is a HC (high contrast?), which is now rated at 2000 lumens and 20k:1.

With some luck, I'll get a brief look at it on saturday.

Looks like you're right about this. DP has changed the Specs of the 260 and there are now two versions. One is a HC (high contrast?), which is now rated at 2000 lumens and 20k:1.

With some luck, I'll get a brief look at it on saturday.

Let us know what you see.

Art

Does the DP260 use .65 chips or .95?

Does the DP260 use .65 chips or .95?The smaller ones's I'm pretty sure.

it is defo the small chips

Neil,

is there any official UK retail price for the 260 yet?

DreamWorks Animation CEO Katzenberg on 3D, not so positive. Article here (http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118017453.html?categoryid=10&cs=1).

Alan,
There's an article on 3D in this week's issue of TIME magazine [Asian Edition] and Katzenberg is quite excited at the prospect of 3D especially in his area of animation. He feels that that iPad 3.0 will most probably be a 3D device and 3D will have will have decent market penetration by 2011. He was also focused on how to continue bringing the audiences to the theatres through 3D.

There were some positive remarks on Robert Zemeckis' The Polar Express in 3D which impressed him when he went to watch it a few years ago when it was released.

There was also a reference to Samsung as partners. Does anybody know if Samsung is doing something together with or for DreamWorks?

I think what he and Cameron are worried about is to not ruin the mystique of 3D that Avatar has ignited after a long time by taking short-cuts in converting 2D to 3D or doing 3D half-heartedly because that will leave negative impressions on audiences. It has to be done properly for a telling effect.

it is defo the small chips

Wouldn't it be trickier to avoid registration error with .65 than it would be with .95 chips?

Bummer, didn't get to see the DP 260 yesterday. I'll try to get a demo at home next, once the 260 becomes available.