I put this in the forum because I think we'll see some large capacity solutions like Kaleidescape be among the first to offer Managed Copy for BR.

At CEDIA, Pioneer has a new STB called Entertainment Tap that strives to aggregate all kinds of source content to serve up to your TV:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/10/pioneer-shoots-for-the-moon-with-its-entertainment-tap-concept/

Their demo showed off Managed Copy in action. Engadget got a video of it here:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/09/10/video-frist-working-blu-ray-managed-copy-demo/#continued

Notice the demo guy's comments at around 50 seconds into the video. Here's my transcription:

"....the only thing it's allowed to copy is the movie, it's not allowed to copy all the other supplementals...it only does bit for bit for the movie itself....we had all 5 studio heads here this morning look at this and they confirmed it"

How nice that we get to pay for the privilege of ripping only part of the disc's content. And the hits just keep on coming....

Jeff

I sent a Tweet to Ben Drawbaugh from Engadget HD asking about the comments made by the Pioneer rep in the video. His response:

"Actually the AACS-LA told me it was up to the studio, so I assume he meant that is what Disney told him."

Great, so in addition to the possibility of price variation for MMC based on the studio, we might have feature availability variance too? What a mess!

Jeff

Did we expect anything less jeff?

so when you buy a disc... you will have no idea what the cost for the MMC is... No idea what you get for that cost... and possibly no idea if MMC is even enabled for that disc.

The folks at sly soft et all are rubbing their hands together saying THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!

I am sure there is .001@ of the population that cares about disc supplementals but I am not one of them. Personally I wonder who even watches those things, they are the equivalent of commercials.

Re: Dizzman's last post, what are you basing that on? I would expect that at some point the jacket will give some indication. Price variation I think is fine and to be expected, just as one movie sells for one and another sells for another. Granted a fixed fee of x dollars would be nice. I'm more concerned about the fact that the number of devices and functionality can be defined by each studio. That's PURE IDIOCY. It should be a consistent standard so the consumer knows what to expect. But as has been discussed so many times this is par for the course. As much as I am opposed to stealing content, I no longer feel the least bit bad about seeing (other) people do just that. This industry deserves it.

I am sure there is .001@ of the population that cares about disc supplementals but I am not one of them. Personally I wonder who even watches those things, they are the equivalent of commercials.
I'll watch them sometimes if they give some nice insights into the movie. My kids however watch them quite frequently. I would never be able to get away with buying a single disk Harry Potter (or the like)....unless I want to get a sermon from my 10-yr-old daughter.

I am sure there is .001@ of the population that cares about disc supplementals but I am not one of them. Personally I wonder who even watches those things, they are the equivalent of commercials.

Speak for yourself. While you may not watch them, quite a few folks do. I think Fox's move to strip extras out of rental discs speaks exactly to that. It's a direct attempt to create added value to purchased discs vs. rental discs. For you, it doesn't matter, but for many others it does. Sure, some of the added stuff is garbage, but I don't consider director's commentaries, making of, etc stuff to be useless. For movies I really love, these added items give additional perspective on the content.

But let's look at something which may not be so clear - can we assume that a movie only rip means that you get everything that is associated with the title? Here's something that should matter a lot to folks in this forum - audio track. Is it unthinkable that they would offer a rip that is main title only with the default audio track and no ability to choose another audio stream? Now sure, that matters more to folks like us who represent a very small subset, but we're also the kind of people who are way more interested in MMC than the general public anyway.

The point is, why limit the choice? You've paid for the disc and will likely have to pay again for MMC, so shouldn't it just be a full rip? It will be DRM laden anyway, so we should at least get the benefit of a choosing a copy that is exactly like what we bought on disc.

Re: Dizzman's last post, what are you basing that on? I would expect that at some point the jacket will give some indication. Price variation I think is fine and to be expected, just as one movie sells for one and another sells for another. Granted a fixed fee of x dollars would be nice.

It's an educated guess based on the practical nature of the problem. I have a feeling that we'll see MMC prices start high and come down eventually as the format tries to sustain. Besides that, it seems like poor marketing. They'll probably go with something like "This disc is Managed Copy compatible*" with a fine print note on the bottom about there being some additional fee, without stating outright what that fee is. That would in part be because the price could change and because you don't want customers to be mentally adding that cost to the disc price when making a buying decision. Those who know will, but you don't want to remind general consumers of the fact that they want to get more money out of you.

I'm more concerned about the fact that the number of devices and functionality can be defined by each studio. That's PURE IDIOCY. It should be a consistent standard so the consumer knows what to expect. But as has been discussed so many times this is par for the course.

On this point I completely agree. I personally expect Fox to be the most ridiculous as it relates to price and feature restrictions. This is going to be a mess.

Jeff

I sent a Tweet to Ben Drawbaugh from Engadget HD asking about the comments made by the Pioneer rep in the video. His response:

"Actually the AACS-LA told me it was up to the studio, so I assume he meant that is what Disney told him."
Well, both the Pioneer guy and whoever he spoke to are wrong. Ditto for anyone they spoke to at a studio :). You can copy any and all content on the disc and no one can restrict you in that matter.

This stuff can be complex and only a select few in the industry really understand it so it is not surprising that there is incorrect data floating around. I just confirmed the above with one of the few people I trust in this area (Richard Doherty) and my understanding of how it used to work is still valid.

That said, there will be desire to strip off the interactivity as folks would want to play the copy on target devices which do not have a blu-ray stack. Alternatively they could try to convert it to another system which is complex but also eliminate the need for BD-J elsewhere. Maybe this is the reason the above talking point was created rather than getting into explaining this complexity.

As I have noted in the K thread, the level of complexity is much higher all around for BD vs DVD.

Amir,

A couple of things happened yesterday. First, I sent Julie Jacobsen at CEPro a message asking if she could confirm this behavior and she got back to me later in the day to say that it was indeed the movie only. Second, I actually got to go to CEDIA (I live in Atlanta and have a great relationship with a local CI, who invited to see the show floor). I got to go to the Pioneer booth and actually speak to that same guy. This guy seemed to know his stuff as he was involved in the development of the ETap product. He said that his impression was that while it was up to the studios, his take from them is that they would all only be allowing MC of the movie title and the primary audio stream only. He went on to talk about Warner's tendency to make DD the primary audio stream and was hoping that there would be some resolution to that with respect to MC.

Certainly, the guy and his studio reps could be wrong. That being said I will say that if you look at the license agreement, the tables there seem to indicate varying restriction types based upon how the content is being offloaded. It's a lot of technobabble and legalese, so I can't decode it. So, it is possible that the restriction is for certain types of MC transfers only. In that case, this thing is more than a mess.

Jeff

Jeff, I am at CEDIA also. I have not talked to Pioneer guys but will try to do that this morning before flying back.

For now, I am not challenging the general knowledge of Pioneer person. But unless he has been to AACS meetings as Richard has, and knows exactly what was agreed to and not, his knowledge could be faulty (even if he is relying on studios). With Microsoft being the originator of the original concept for Managed copy, I put my money on Richard knowing these things better than just about anyone, as he goes to all the meetings and has been driving this issue nearly since inception :).

As to the bit in the agreement, there are carve-outs for content that studios do not have the right to grant additional copies. That has been there for a long time and is not related to the topic at hand.

OK, mystery solved. I spoke to Ralf (?) who I believe gave the interview for Pioneer on that video.

He said that the restriction was due to the test disc that they got to demo. Apparently Disney did not want to clear up the rights for the bonus content and just gave them a 2-minute clip on the disc. Hence, there was nothing else there to copy beside that short clip.

OK, mystery solved. I spoke to Ralf (?) who I believe gave the interview for Pioneer on that video.

He said that the restriction was due to the test disc that they got to demo. Apparently Disney did not want to clear up the rights for the bonus content and just gave them a 2-minute clip on the disc. Hence, there was nothing else there to copy beside that short clip.

Great work on that and I appreciate you going the extra mile. I'm certainly guilty of being overly suspicious of the studios, but I definitely don't want to spread incorrect info. Now about those MC prices... ;)

Jeff

Now about those MC prices... ;)
Sorry, that is one battle I lost :o.

It was either that or no high definition launch for a while.