So digital distrubition for xbox 360 games gas been out for awhile now. The question is anyone on here using it?.

I know some of us were looking forward to having a games on the HDD with no need to get up, or take discs with us for travelling.

I'm thinking about picking up Assains Creed sometime this month.

No way. $30 for games that sell for $20 in the store, plus filling up my 20GB HD so I can't download demos? No thanks! We should all reject downloaded games, or you can kiss the used market goodbye, and I can't afford new games except for once a year for top tier titles like Halo and Gears. I'm selling games right now just to afford ODST.

anyone who has bought a XBLA title has used digital distribution. As for me I think it's a nice way to get games. As long as the DRM is draconian and has flexibility it can provide a good service. MS should seriously look at steam's model and continue to work along those lines.

anyone who has bought a XBLA title has used digital distribution.I'm pretty sure the OP was referring to the Games on Demand service.

The big problem with the service is pricing--as the above poster mentioned. MS is dooming the service to failure by pricing games over their retail cost. I understand they don't want to piss off Walmart and Gamestop by undercutting them, but I don't see why they're even bothering. Most consumers perceive the value of digital downloads to be less than the value of their material counterparts. The pricing on iTunes is a perfect example.

I know I won't be buying a single game off of the service until the prices are fair and reasonable to consumers (rather than to retailers).

Sony's pricing for Warhawk, Burnout Paradise, SOCOM, GT5P, and Siren were all completely fair (which is why I own three of their five digitally available retail releases). Those all cost more than $30 for me to download, but they were also all new releases at the time.

No way will I ever use it. I prefer to own physical copies of the games that I own. :p Plus, they are usually cheaper that way and don't take up space on my HDD unless I want them to.

I'm pretty sure the OP was referring to the Games on Demand service.

The big problem with the service is pricing--as the above poster mentioned. MS is dooming the service to failure by pricing games over their retail cost. I understand they don't want to piss off Walmart and Gamestop by undercutting them, but I don't see why they're even bothering. Most consumers perceive the value of digital downloads to be less than the value of their material counterparts. The pricing on iTunes is a perfect example.

It's not just perception. The prices on a download should, in theory, be less than the prices for the same retail release. There's no media, no printed instructions, no case, no case art, etc.

Personally, I don't use the downloads because I'm old school and like to have the physical media on hand. It feels safer to me and I can transport it to other people's houses easily.

I would except I'm able to buy used copies of all the games on GoD for LESS than the "privilege" of downloading them directly to my HDD costs. Until they get the pricing competitive, I won't be doing any direct downloads aside from XBLA exclusives. Even for XBLA, I just bought the two on disc compilations that are out there Vol. 1 and Vol. 2; each cost under $10 and included 4 full XBLA games. Again, that's cheaper per game than buying them through XBLA marketplace so why would I?

Yes, this isn't the first thread where it has been pointed out that the pricing model makes no sense. On a PC digital distribution service like Impulse, you can regularly see games going for a significant discount off their retail price. In fact, Impulse even has "Impulse buy weekends", where games which once sold for $50 or $60 can be purchased for $5 - $20.

Basically... If one discounts Mass Effect down to $10, it sells. If one insists that it's $30 or nothing, it won't sell much at all; everyone who already wanted it at this price point bought the actual retail copy for this price or less.

I think the $20 games are priced fairly, and they outnumber the $30 ones. EA seems to get it, since all of their titles are $20. I'm more inclined to blame the publishers at this point.

yes I was talking about games on demand and not arcade title since for most (arcade) there is no alternative for DD.

I really like the idea of being able to lie down on my couch/travel and just jump between games on the xbox then getting up and putting in a new game..


Assains Creed is about the same price online as majour canadian retailer, wal-mart didn't even have it and some other games are same, or close to new price (battlefield bad company)

through I will agree some games are crazy ($40 for NFS most wanted)
Granted most of you aren't on Canadian accounts and seeing the same prices as me.

Anyone that argues for getting up off the couch and putting a disc better not stream, or otherwise have connected movies to there xbox :P

Basically... If one discounts Mass Effect down to $10, it sells. If one insists that it's $30 or nothing, it won't sell much at all; everyone who already wanted it at this price point bought the actual retail copy for this price or less.


If you're going to use Mass Effect as an example, at least use the correct price.

If you're going to use Mass Effect as an example, at least use the correct price.
Fine, sorry, change my example from "Mass Effect" to "Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter", which is an even older game that has the stingy $30 price tag.

Fine, sorry, change my example from "Mass Effect" to "Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter", which is an even older game that has the stingy $30 price tag.

No problem, and I agree with you on the $30 stuff. Just seems like everyone forgets $30 DD games are in the minority right now when making the point about the service being overpriced.

No way. $30 for games that sell for $20 in the store, plus filling up my 20GB HD so I can't download demos? No thanks! We should all reject downloaded games, or you can kiss the used market goodbye, and I can't afford new games except for once a year for top tier titles like Halo and Gears. I'm selling games right now just to afford ODST.

Oh no! Not the used market! I just love being short changed by Gamestop so they can turn around and screw over the developers who create the games I enjoy! Oh please, save the used market!

Plainly there's a middle ground here between developers/publishers seeking a profit and customers wanting a value. Even without used game sales, there comes a point in a game's lifecycle where it simply won't sell any more than a handful of units at its current price. The retail inventory will be low, making it hard to track down, and it may be superceeded by sequels or better titles in the same genre.

If developers and publishers are serious about making as much money as possible off an older title, they need to discount it extremely aggressively. For example, if they mark Ghost Recon: Advanced Warfighter down to $5, will this really cannibalize retail sales? Probably not, since current retail sales of the title are negligible. But, it certainly will move digital copies, and that generates some non-zero profit. Even though the profit per copy is small, it's all a sunk cost; the game is already done, it won't otherwise have any other earnings, and there's no incremental manufacturing cost.

Publishers/developers could even use this as a mechanism to get the hype going about a sequel, i.e. push the old game for $5 on Xbox Live a month or two before the new game comes out.

I have problems when everyone talks about how bad the used market is....I used to point to the car industry and say look they have used cars.... but that doesn't really help my argument anymore. I agree with both sides, i don't know what that makes me.

I should have the right to resell my ***, but then it mays hurt the orginal manufacturer/producer.

In Canada everytime you sell something your supposed to pay taxs on it, doesn't happen much for most things. partly becuase its so hard unless your a business...

Ideally for publishers they could have some sort of working DRM where when it was sold to one of parties would have to pay a small fee before being able to use it/drive it etc. Then nobody really loses, through I'm not sure if anyone truely wins?

Well I bought Assains Creed last night on Market Place. I was abit disappoined by how long it took to download. I started/bought it at 6 and it was still going when I went to bed around 10-10:30

Well I bought Assains Creed last night on Market Place. I was abit disappoined by how long it took to download. I started/bought it at 6 and it was still going when I went to bed around 10-10:30

a few gigs to download will do that.

I have problems when everyone talks about how bad the used market is....I used to point to the car industry and say look they have used cars.... but that doesn't really help my argument anymore. I agree with both sides, i don't know what that makes me.

I should have the right to resell my ***, but then it mays hurt the orginal manufacturer/producer.

In Canada everytime you sell something your supposed to pay taxs on it, doesn't happen much for most things. partly becuase its so hard unless your a business...

Ideally for publishers they could have some sort of working DRM where when it was sold to one of parties would have to pay a small fee before being able to use it/drive it etc. Then nobody really loses, through I'm not sure if anyone truely wins?


Used car analogy doesn't really work because when you sell your used car, you need a new one. And if the old Civic you sold was a good car, you'll buy another. But if you sell a copy of Fallout 3, and you enjoyed the game, you're not going to go out and buy another copy of Fallout 3.

I think with video games you should be paying for the "experience" and not the physical media. Video games aren't the same as movies and such because they're interactive. Due to necessaty, they've been released on the same medium for years, but I think that needs to change. And probably will next generation when things go to 100% digital downloads.

Some people might lose some money in the long run because they can't sell their old games anymore. But at the same time hopefully developers will be more inclined to take risks, try new things, and we will in turn be treated with more innovative AAA titles.

Well I bought Assains Creed last night on Market Place. I was abit disappoined by how long it took to download. I started/bought it at 6 and it was still going when I went to bed around 10-10:30

connection speed? w/ comcast, 6.7gb takes about 3hr, 22-25min for a full game.

Were supposed to get up to 7, I tested before I started the download at 6.??
I'm happy with the DD side of things. I'm unhappy with how long the "intro" into Assains Creed is.

I think I will be buying more games on DD so I can play off my hardrive and for the convinence. Such as Battlefield Bad Company, I wonder if Halo ODST will hit DD?

Fibre roolz fools! I've got a real 60Mbps down / 10Mbps up. I download games in 2 or 3 minutes. So I'm all for digital downloads as long as the pricing makes sense, which it doesn't.

You have the bandwidth, I have the price... kinda.
So far of the games I've looked at most have been retail or close to.

no way i love the fact that i can trade in my games and get 25-30 back

I hope some of you realize the target audience isn't any of us. It is for the consumer that isn't sitting on any forum or going from Walmart, Gamestop or online stores to find the lowest price. The consumers purchasing this is the one that simply just has the money to spend due to the convience of not leaving his home or waiting for it to come to the house. MS is targeting the customers who just bought the system today. That new customer who sees all the options available at that convience of just pressing a few buttons after checking out the game trailers on the marketplace and they see it is available for download. I don't see why anybody here would complain what the cost is especially when you already know you can get the game cheaper practically anywhere else. I am sure MS will adjust the price based on how much consumers are purchasing Games on Demand.

Fibre roolz fools! I've got a real 60Mbps down / 10Mbps up. I download games in 2 or 3 minutes. So I'm all for digital downloads as long as the pricing makes sense, which it doesn't.


sorry charlie, but even at max speed (which i'm betting MS cannot provide to you) you're looking at 14 minutes and 53 seconds.


still blazingly fast, but nowhere near as fast as your false claims

d

what an insightful first post.

LOL joined in april and just now posted.

I tend not to sell or trade games and I have a 120gb HD and like the idea of not having to put a disc in.

Unfortunately the prices are a turn off, if I don't get a case, manual or the right to re-sell even if I never use it, I want a nice discount. And they should be new titles not titles that I can buy at a discount in store already that I haven't bought yet since odds are also pretty good that I can get those right away from Gamefly.

One thing I would really like would be if new games came with a code that allowed you a one time hard drive install that wouldn't require the disc check. Maybe it could check once a month or something just to validate you haven't sold/traded the game.

Used car analogy doesn't really work because when you sell your used car, you need a new one. And if the old Civic you sold was a good car, you'll buy another. But if you sell a copy of Fallout 3, and you enjoyed the game, you're not going to go out and buy another copy of Fallout 3.

This isn't accurate at all. If I sell a 2005 Civic, I'm not buying a brand new 2005 Civic. I might be buying a 2009 Civic or even a 2009 Accord.

I think with video games you should be paying for the "experience" and not the physical media. Video games aren't the same as movies and such because they're interactive. Due to necessaty, they've been released on the same medium for years, but I think that needs to change. And probably will next generation when things go to 100% digital downloads.

Broadband still isn't universal enough for this to happen next gen. As a matter of fact, if IPS's impose tight rerstrictons, it may never happen.

Some people might lose some money in the long run because they can't sell their old games anymore. But at the same time hopefully developers will be more inclined to take risks, try new things, and we will in turn be treated with more innovative AAA titles.

More innovative titles? Like Madden 2110, Call Of Duty 99 or Guitar Hero: Band at the Local Bar?:rolleyes:

Look I'm a packrat, so nearly nothing I buy gets sold (ask my wife :eek:). But I firmly believe that everyone has the right to sell whatever they buy. Developers/publishers must also feel consumers have that right (now I'm not saying they like us having that right). Otherwise, they would be taking Gamestop, Ebay, Amazon, etc. to court instead of pushing digital downloads that really can't be resold.

"As a matter of fact, if IPS's impose tight rerstrictons, it may never happen."

The only ISPs that will ever have bandwidth caps are cable operators, as they have an interest in protecting their TV business. Even then, that will only hold until their customers start leaving for DSL is mass numbers as they bump up against the cap. DSL and other non-cable providers of course have no need to protect some other out-dated revenue stream by restricting their internet services.

In short, caps are an extremely short-term strategy and should have zero influence on how you think things will be in the next couple of years.

"As a matter of fact, if IPS's impose tight rerstrictons, it may never happen."

The only ISPs that will ever have bandwidth caps are cable operators, as they have an interest in protecting their TV business. Even then, that will only hold until their customers start leaving for DSL is mass numbers as they bump up against the cap. DSL and other non-cable providers of course have no need to protect some other out-dated revenue stream by restricting their internet services.

In short, caps are an extremely short-term strategy and should have zero influence on how you think things will be in the next couple of years.

But cable is still the predominate form of high speed internet. DSL isn't universally available yet. I'm sure some rural areas will never get broadband competition. And caps are right now, a fact of life in many places outside the USA. I just don't see download game only consoles for next gen. Heck even now, there are some XBLA games that are available on discs.

Ironically around here it the cable company that has no caps on there internet while the DSL companies do.
Also the rural areas are blanketed by "wireless broadband" from the cable company.

Ironically around here it the cable company that has no caps on there internet while the DSL companies do.
Also the rural areas are blanketed by "wireless broadband" from the cable company.
DSL speed isn't "capped", it's a technical limitation of the technology based on the distance of one's home from the CO. Hence, depending on distance, one might be limited to 1.5 Mbps or 3 Mbps (etc.).

But it's certainly the truth that if one has an overall bandwidth cap (in terms of x many gigabytes per month), digital distribution becomes significantly less appealing. If the bandwidth cap is particularly harsh, one would be hard-pressed to do any sort of downloading of a full game.

I don't mind the idea of digital distribution overall. It allows us to download new maps, patches, weapons, etc. And it also provides us great XBLA games, which I love to jump in and out of, without getting up.

And if I had a larger HDD, downloading full games might not be that bad for the right price. But my biggest complaint is that I lose the right to resell it. If MS gave me a keycode or some other ability to resell the digital copy or let my friend borrow it, I'd be all over it. I am able to buy a lot more physical games simply because I can play it, then turn around and sell it on eBay if I don't like it or I'm done with it. Then I have more money to buy new games, which ultimately helps devs.

And don't bring up Gamestop hurting devs. If I sell my Mazda, I don't have to give Mazda part of the sale price and neither do used car salesmen. It's my car, I do with it what I want. If devs want to make money, make better games (COD4) or do it at a better value (Trials HD, BF1943).

Oh no! Not the used market! I just love being short changed by Gamestop so they can turn around and screw over the developers who create the games I enjoy! Oh please, save the used market!

Why can there not be a used market for games?
Do you have a problem with the used market for cars? Refrigerators? How about used video game systems? Why don't auto manufacturers, appliance makers and game system makers rally around and prevent people who have no more use for the product from selling it to someone who may want to make use of it while the previous owner recoups some of their money back (and who know's, the seller may even use that money to buy a new car, a new appliance, a new game system or even a new game-gasp!).

I find it strange that so many gamers have bought the publishers' ******** about the used game market.

The developers get paid. I bought a copy of Gears of War 2. Epic/MS got my money. Too bad it sucked ass. I sold it (on eBay - rpggamer acts like GameStop is the only place to buy and sell used games). Did publishers lose another sale because that sucker bought my copy instead of a new one? Maybe. But guess what? It's not my problem.

But then I turned around and used that money to buy another game. If I was stuck with Gears of War 2, I wouldn't have. So then maybe publishers don't lose a sale.

I'm not interested in downloads just because you have to be online to use it. I usually carry my 360 HDD when I travel. It sucks that I absolutely can not use anything I downloaded to the HDD unless I'm logged in. I know the reasoning behind the requirement to be logged in is pretty obvious. If you didn't have to log in, you could basically download the game to a friend's HDD. But there should be some way of verifying you are the purchaser by checking your credentials against your profile without having to be logged in. So now I'm stuck out here with all these games I downloaded on the HDD and can only play the trial version or it won't play the game at all unless I'm hooked up to the internet.

I find it strange that so many gamers have bought the publishers' ******** about the used game market.

The developers get paid. I bought a copy of Gears of War 2. Epic/MS got my money. Too bad it sucked ass. I sold it (on eBay - rpggamer acts like GameStop is the only place to buy and sell used games). Did publishers lose another sale because that sucker bought my copy instead of a new one? Maybe. But guess what? It's not my problem.

But then I turned around and used that money to buy another game. If I was stuck with Gears of War 2, I wouldn't have. So then maybe publishers don't lose a sale.

I swear you follow me around to rebut my every post. I thought we were buddies cause we're both Demon's Souls fans. I agree it may not be the greatest thing for every individual consumer, but you can't deny it will be good for the industry. There no way more money going to developers can cause less games to come out.

I also contend its coming next gen whether we like it or not. It could be a winning issue between the consoles, too, because if the developers like the digital download format they might blacklist a console that still conforms to the traditional disc format in hopes of forcing the entire market to digital downloads. Its definitely coming.

Since they're cutting out all the packaging costs, all the shipping costs, and all the middlemen costs, then they better pass that savings onto me. But they're not. They want that profit to themselves. Saving $10? not worth it.

digital distribution is great for small games that cost $10.

for movies, i think i'm fine with digital distribution.

i've converted all my movies to play on my WDTV and it's really nice not having to go to a drawer to pull out a movie. plus i can stream over the network from a server. makes it super nice.

but seriously, if they cut bluray discs to standard dvd prices, that's when the format would pick up. they wouldn't have to worry about digital distribution overtaking it if that was the case. honestly, hi-def looks great and better than dvd but it's not that much better. only the true digital films make it look that much better (stuff like digital animation films or stuff like Sin City with digital cameras). there are very few things I can show that people saw wow (things like Happy Feet). most bluray and hd-dvd, they just say that looks pretty good.

I also contend its coming next gen whether we like it or not. It could be a winning issue between the consoles, too, because if the developers like the digital download format they might blacklist a console that still conforms to the traditional disc format in hopes of forcing the entire market to digital downloads. Its definitely coming.

The PSPGO is the testing ground for whether this can be done. Stores make zero off the machine and they can't sell the games. so what's the incentive? the only incentive is you want to keep a good relationship with sony so you can sell their other products like tv's, ps3, etc? is that good enough for the retailer? for a big retailer like walmart, that's fine. but for a mom-and-pop video game store or the smaller chains?

it's not like an ipod where apple has a huge profit margin to work with. stores don't sell ipods because people demand ipods. they sell ipods because it makes them money.

The PSPGO is the testing ground for whether this can be done. Stores make zero off the machine and they can't sell the games. so what's the incentive? the only incentive is you want to keep a good relationship with sony so you can sell their other products like tv's, ps3, etc? is that good enough for the retailer? for a big retailer like walmart, that's fine. but for a mom-and-pop video game store or the smaller chains?

it's not like an ipod where apple has a huge profit margin to work with. stores don't sell ipods because people demand ipods. they sell ipods because it makes them money.

Out of curiousity where do you live that has Mom and Pop video game stores? In Pittsburgh we have Walmart, Sears, Target, Best Buy, and Gamestop. I can't even think of a small chain that sells video games.

Obviously the console makers are going to have to offer some incentive for retailers to carry their hardware. How they're going to do that is beyond me.

Out of curiousity where do you live that has Mom and Pop video game stores? In Pittsburgh we have Walmart, Sears, Target, Best Buy, and Gamestop. I can't even think of a small chain that sells video games.

Obviously the console makers are going to have to offer some incentive for retailers to carry their hardware. How they're going to do that is beyond me.

Los Angeles, San Diego, etc. all the big markets have them. small markets like Pittsburgh depend on big retailers because of lack of options.

I don't buy used or trade at Gamestop. Total ripoff. $2-5 off for used? What a joke! I buy and sell used on ebay, right from the comfort of my own home. I do buy discounted titles at the local shops, when they are a good deal. I am waiting for the buy 2 get one free from Gamestop this Christmas to stock up.

no way. $30 for games that sell for $20 in the store, plus filling up my 20gb hd so i can't download demos? No thanks! We should all reject downloaded games, or you can kiss the used market goodbye, and i can't afford new games except for once a year for top tier titles like halo and gears. I'm selling games right now just to afford odst.

+1000

I'm not interested in downloads just because you have to be online to use it. I usually carry my 360 HDD when I travel. It sucks that I absolutely can not use anything I downloaded to the HDD unless I'm logged in. I know the reasoning behind the requirement to be logged in is pretty obvious. If you didn't have to log in, you could basically download the game to a friend's HDD. But there should be some way of verifying you are the purchaser by checking your credentials against your profile without having to be logged in. So now I'm stuck out here with all these games I downloaded on the HDD and can only play the trial version or it won't play the game at all unless I'm hooked up to the internet.

They are tied to the console and gamertag you originally purchased them on. You don't have to be online if you are using the same console you bought them on.

I've been avoiding the whole Digital Download thing from the very beginning. Although it might seem unbelievable, I've owned a 360 since launch day, been online since launch day and haven't purchased a single XBLA game. Why? Cause I'm not going to buy anything that I can't later sell to somebody else. Basically, I just happen to be a cheap bastard when it comes to games, and I typically buy my games used via craigslist (no tax, no shipping), play them for a number of months, and then re-sell on craigslist to somebody else. Take a game like Dirt 2 for example. When I can get that game on Craigslist for $30 straight up, I'll probably snag it, play it for like 4 or 5 months, and then sell it for like $23. Basically, I'm renting the game for 4 or 5 months for about 7 bucks. That's pretty much my M.O.

The big downside to this philosophy is that I never have the games when they first come out. For me though, it's not really that big a deal because I have so many games on my backburner list, that I really don't need to run out and buy every new game that comes out. Usually, a couple of months a year I'll sign up for the Blockbuster monthly rental plan thing, just to rent a ton of new releases to check them out and see how good the games are. Then later pick them up on CL for dirt cheap. I'll probably get a Blockbuster rental plan around Oct 15th and run it for two months until December 15th. During that time frame, I should be able to try all the big time releases, and know which games really do it for me, and which ones don't. I probably won't be buying any of them till February or March, cause it will take awhile before people are willing to sell them for only 30 snaps. F tax, F shipping fees, F buying something that I can never sell to anybody else.

Anthony - Your strategy means that you cannot play Geometry Wars or Shadow Complex. That makes you a sucker.

They are tied to the console and gamertag you originally purchased them on. You don't have to be online if you are using the same console you bought them on.

Except 1) I have multiple consoles, and 2) I can't always carry my console around with me. Now what I can do is carry my memory card and HDD with me to local 360's. I've downloaded so much stuff on my different HDD's I haven't been able to figure out which console and HDD I originaly downloaded my stuff to. I even downloaded a game to an HDD I had with me when I was visiting family. Now it's just taking up space since I can no longer access it. Digital downloads, while convenient, have been completely useless for me until I get back to the US (which is approximately May 2010) AND get internet turned on in my house.

I swear you follow me around to rebut my every post. I thought we were buddies cause we're both Demon's Souls fans. I agree it may not be the greatest thing for every individual consumer, but you can't deny it will be good for the industry. There no way more money going to developers can cause less games to come out.

I'm really not trying to bust your balls here, I just see this type of POV online all the time and completely disagree with it.

For one thing, there is no promise that more money will flow to the developers. That idea assumes that every single used copy being sold will be replaced by a new one, hence what is now GameStop's will be the publishers. That's a bad assumption.

I put my time into EB in high school, and what people did was trade in their old games, then buy different ones. The different ones may have been new or used, but they were different games. If people can't get money for the old games they completed, there's no guarantee they will keep buying games like they are now. They will also likely be far more careful with their money - less people will buy the type of game that's done with once the credits roll if they can't get anything for it afterwards.

I also contend its coming next gen whether we like it or not. It could be a winning issue between the consoles, too, because if the developers like the digital download format they might blacklist a console that still conforms to the traditional disc format in hopes of forcing the entire market to digital downloads. Its definitely coming.

I agree with this, but if I was the publishers I'd be careful what I wish for. It's one thing to spend $15 now and then on cool DD games, paired up with no brainers like Orange Box PC. It's quite another to rely 100% on DD, tying up the games to your account for life, with no ability to get rid of them, and being completely at the mercy of the publishers for pricing.

The only 2 games I 'own' for my PS3 were bought as DD games. Hot Shots Golf and GT5P. I wanted those titles immediately and didnt feel like getting my azz off the couch and goin to the store to get them. The price was the same as in store.

I agree the prices could have been better.. but you know what. Sometimes price isnt everything. DD is as much about convenience, less physical clutter and instantaneous reward.. as it is about cheaper pricing.

Ask iTunes. The largest music distributor.


As soon as MS & Sony nail the pricing.. DD will be the way of the future.

DSL speed isn't "capped", it's a technical limitation of the technology based on the distance of one's home from the CO. Hence, depending on distance, one might be limited to 1.5 Mbps or 3 Mbps (etc.).

But it's certainly the truth that if one has an overall bandwidth cap (in terms of x many gigabytes per month), digital distribution becomes significantly less appealing. If the bandwidth cap is particularly harsh, one would be hard-pressed to do any sort of downloading of a full game.

Sorry I was talking about a bandwidth cap. Last time I checked the majour DSL provider had a 10GB a month cap.... might be better now.

I agree the prices could have been better.. but you know what. Sometimes price isnt everything. DD is as much about convenience, less physical clutter and instantaneous reward.. as it is about cheaper pricing.
I don't know about "instantaneous"... Even assuming you have a speedy 10 Mbps connection, which realistically gets about a megabyte of data a second, we're still talking well over an hour to download a full-size retail game. Not all of us have such a fast connection, and I can go to the local Best Buy, grab the title, and be back in 45 minutes if the price is going to be the same... Plus, as previously noted, one then isn't forced to use up hard drive space to hold the game.

hi-def looks great and better than dvd but it's not that much better. only the true digital films make it look that much better (stuff like digital animation films or stuff like Sin City with digital cameras). there are very few things I can show that people saw wow (things like Happy Feet). most bluray and hd-dvd, they just say that looks pretty good.


I'm sorry I just have to jump on this. If Blu-rays don't look that much then DVD and your friends are having a hard time telling the differnce either your setup isn't that good, or you using the wrong material or both. Or maybe they need glasses?

Weather on my projector or my 32" LCD my family and friends comment on how good HD lookis, and I very rarely tell them what the source material is (ie blu-ray, HD DVD, DD, DVD, TV PVR'd)

Also Blu-Ray sounds AMAZING compared to old Dolby Digital.

The majourity of the really good looking Blu-Rays were shot with film such as Batman, or Bond. Digital video cameras Don't have the definition of Imax or 70mm film.. They also don't have the Dynamic range/contrast that film does.

Here's a list of films shot in HD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-definition_video#HD_in_filmmaking

Through I do agree they really need to drop the price.


As for gaming DD it sounds like if they could figure out the DRM and transfer of ownership to someone else then most people would be on board for it?

I don't know about "instantaneous"... Even assuming you have a speedy 10 Mbps connection, which realistically gets about a megabyte of data a second, we're still talking well over an hour to download a full-size retail game. Not all of us have such a fast connection, and I can go to the local Best Buy, grab the title, and be back in 45 minutes if the price is going to be the same... Plus, as previously noted, one then isn't forced to use up hard drive space to hold the game.

But for others, going to local store can be hour and half experince, well at least for me. And your probaly going to install the game in all fairness so you don't have to listen to the DVD drive, so either way a good chunck of your HDD is going to be getting taken up,

I wish they would have gone a different direction or expanded on the idea. They should offer a rental plan, $10 a month unlimited rentals (on top of a gold account), you just have to pick which game you want to play and download it. Limit it to one download rental at a time. Want to download a new rental if automatically deletes the installed data for the one you have (keep the saves). Make all new games available and slowly fill in old games. It would pretty much put gamefly out of business and there would be no issues with damaged discs or shipping problems. It makes so much sense and they would be making a crap load of more money than they probably are now by flat out selling. You could also incorporate a buy it now button, like the game and want it? Then buy it now, it frees up your rental slot for a new game and you have now permanently purchased the game.

For Microsoft the only cost is storage in their data centers, a mechanism to manage it all, and bandwidth. All of that stuff is relatively cheap.

"As a matter of fact, if IPS's impose tight rerstrictons, it may never happen."

The only ISPs that will ever have bandwidth caps are cable operators, as they have an interest in protecting their TV business. Even then, that will only hold until their customers start leaving for DSL is mass numbers as they bump up against the cap. DSL and other non-cable providers of course have no need to protect some other out-dated revenue stream by restricting their internet services.

In short, caps are an extremely short-term strategy and should have zero influence on how you think things will be in the next couple of years.

Ummm, no. AT&T has repeatedly talked about (and I believe test-implemented in some areas) DSL bandwidth caps. They're in bed with Dish Network so it makes sense. I wouldn't be surprised to see Verizon do it with their fiber network either, as they also offer TV over FIOS.

Didn't/doesn't yahoo have a game rental service?
If I remeber correctly it doesn't download the whole game at once, it downloads whatever is needed to play then downloads/stream the rest as needed.

I swear you follow me around to rebut my every post. I thought we were buddies cause we're both Demon's Souls fans. I agree it may not be the greatest thing for every individual consumer, but you can't deny it will be good for the industry. There no way more money going to developers can cause less games to come out.

Digital download only for full release games isn't good for anybody, especially at this time. I contend that LESS people would buy a smaller variety of games even if they were at a lower price point.

It's bad for retailers - they don't make any money from game sales and they lose the opportunity to drive people into the store with sale prices, therefore losing sales from "browsers".

It's bad for the consumer - If download is the ONLY option there really isn't an incentive for the prices to be lower. So now I'm paying the same as I was before, I'm limited in the number of games I can keep on hand due to HDD limitations (bad for those of that are "keepers"), and I have to wait 2.5 hours to get it - based on average U.S. download speed of 5.1 mbps (per 2009 CWA study) and a conservative 4.5 GB game (4.5 GB = 36,864 megabits / 5.1 (mbps) / 60 (seconds in an hour) = ~120.5 or 2.5 hours). No thanks.

It's bad for the creators - The downsides to most consumers will probably equal LESS sales. Even if their profit margins are higher on downloaded content that equals less money. You also manage to eliminate your product from a good chunk of the gift buying seasons. You can probably buy the downloads with point cards, but if I get a point card you now let me decide which products from the XBL marketplace that I want. Maybe I decide I want to spend that $50 on 5 arcade games instead of your full release. Finally, huge games might still be big sellers due to the advertising behind them, but small games are more likely to get lost in the shuffle. I think you'd end up with big budget full games and XBL arcade games selling and everything else falling by the wayside.

I also contend its coming next gen whether we like it or not. It could be a winning issue between the consoles, too, because if the developers like the digital download format they might blacklist a console that still conforms to the traditional disc format in hopes of forcing the entire market to digital downloads. Its definitely coming.

Download only is NOT...NOT coming next gen. The U.S. is painfully slow in increasing the speed of their networks. The average growth over the last year, for example, was .9 mbps. There's no way we'll be ready for that kind activity by the time the next gen comes around. If they wanted to they could go download-only in Japan, which has the fastest network and would probably be more receptive to it, but they don't. You have to ask yourself why that is...

I wish they would have gone a different direction or expanded on the idea. They should offer a rental plan, $10 a month unlimited rentals (on top of a gold account), you just have to pick which game you want to play and download it. Limit it to one download rental at a time. Want to download a new rental if automatically deletes the installed data for the one you have (keep the saves). Make all new games available and slowly fill in old games. It would pretty much put gamefly out of business and there would be no issues with damaged discs or shipping problems. It makes so much sense and they would be making a crap load of more money than they probably are now by flat out selling. You could also incorporate a buy it now button, like the game and want it? Then buy it now, it frees up your rental slot for a new game and you have now permanently purchased the game.

For Microsoft the only cost is storage in their data centers, a mechanism to manage it all, and bandwidth. All of that stuff is relatively cheap.

That's actually a great idea and fits well with the current rental philosophy. If you rent a game now the expectation obviously isn't to keep it so this would fit perfectly with that. The only downside is still delivery time, but that's minimized when compared to the time it takes to get a game from something like GameFly.

Digital download only for full release games isn't good for anybody, especially at this time. I contend that LESS people would buy a smaller variety of games even if they were at a lower price point.

Whew, long post, but very solid points. Thanks.

Anthony - Your strategy means that you cannot play Geometry Wars or Shadow Complex. That makes you a sucker.

Well, I actually have Geometry Wars, by accident. I bought a 512mb memory card from Craigslist, and it had Geometry Wars on it. That's the only Xbox Live Arcade game I own. I played the demo for Shadow Complex, and it's a solid game, but I honestly don't feel like I'm missing out on anything spectacular. The real shame is that most people aren't doing what I'm doing even though they should. If all the true gamers did what I was doing, then this whole DLC thing would fail, and they would have to figure out why it's not working, and it wouldn't take long for them to realize it's a DRM issue. Then they either change the DRM if they want DLC to succeed, or they just give up on DLC entirely.

Unfortunately, for every person like me that refuses to purchase anything he can't re-sell, there are twenty other schmoes that are too damn lazy and just don't give a F.

I hate when people say something like If all the true gamers

Does that mean all "true music lovers" are people that don't buy/get mp3's/aac/flac/etc and only the ones that buy CD's... or maybe only the ones that buy vinyl?

I think your really missing out some great content that has some of the best hours/$ I've seen being anal with your philosphy.

BF 1943. something like $15. How much do honestly expect to recoup on that game if it sold at retail on a DVD?

I hate when people say something like

Does that mean all "true music lovers" are people that don't buy/get mp3's/aac/flac/etc and only the ones that buy CD's... or maybe only the ones that buy vinyl?

I think your really missing out some great content that has some of the best hours/$ I've seen being anal with your philosphy.

BF 1943. something like $15. How much do honestly expect to recoup on that game if it sold at retail on a DVD?


Basically, my point is that Downloadable Media provides very fleeting benefits to consumers, and gives them TONS of restrictions as a byproduct. The only real benefit it provides is the fact that a truly lazy person doesn't have to get his azz off the sofa. Other than that, I've heard people talk about less clutter, saving the environment, blah, blah, blah. Bottom line, if we compare what we can do with physical media, to what we can do with DD, there is no comparison. If I have a physical disk, I can let a buddy borrow it. I can sell it on Ebay. I can sell it on Craigslist. God Forbid... if I was insane, I could trade it in to GameStop for pennies on the dollar. I can give it to my little brother, I can save it for 40 years and still play it again (maybe). I can also rent physical media.

With DD, and the horrible DRM that comes along with them, all those things that I talked about above are basically impossible, or have so many restrictions added to them that it makes them virtually impossible.


When I talk about "true gamers", I'm talking about the diehard gamers like myself, that have been gaming for 20 years or longer. I'm not talking about teenagers that have only known a digital world. I'm talking about those of us that grew up with Atari and Nintendo NES and Genesis and Super Nintendo. Those gamers should have been wise to this trend, and we should have done our damnedest to resist the temptation. I know it would have been hard. But had all of the hardcore types totally resisted, and made the DD revolution a failure, then the powers that be would have had to re-evaluate the situation. They would either have to provide consumers more value, by changing the nature of the DRM to give us more options like we do with physical media, or they would have to abandon it, and wait a bit longer into the future before attempting this transition. Obviously, I'm not an idiot and I'm fully aware that DD is a runaway train that cannot be stopped. However, I think had we had more gumption, it could have been definitely delayed another decade at least. However, we are so weak minded, and so in need of instant gratification, that the majority of us couldn't resist and succumbed to the allure of these games.

I don't even like thinking about this topic....

I'm sorry I just have to jump on this. If Blu-rays don't look that much then DVD and your friends are having a hard time telling the differnce either your setup isn't that good, or you using the wrong material or both. Or maybe they need glasses?


they don't have a hard time telling it's different. they know it looks better. they see it for themselves. but it's not like they go "wow, you can see their hair move.." or some stupid moment like that. i go "look you can even see the scratches on his arm" or something like that and they go, "uhhh... yeah..." but they were expecting the kind of jump you saw between VHS and DVD. and it's not that kind of a jump. and they say the same thing, if it cost the same, no issue, they'd go HD. but at the price it is, they say it's fine for DVD on a cheap comedy like you don't mess with the zohan.

and if the format is so great, then no matter what movie i stick in, it should be a wow moment. but it's not. you have to pick the right movie to have that wow moment. even The Dark Knight wasn't a wow moment for them. i stuck in both the dvd and hd version and they thought it looked better but they didn't go "the dvd version makes me puke".

and you can spout all the hype that's in the media about how much better film is than digital. but my friends thought sin city was so much crisper and nicer looking than the Dark Knight.

you can also find people who swear by how much better vinyl records sound than cd's.

If I have a physical disk, I can let a buddy borrow it

Your still stuck in Nintendo and Sega Genesis days. I don't know any people that are that concerned with someone borrowing a game. Especially with a 360/PS3 and Live/PSN. I sure as hell am not concerned about my buddy needing to borrow a game especially when he also likes to go on Live and play that game together. Like someone said before your missing out on alot of games on both consoles and trying to make it sound like you would turn a quick buck on a $10 game if it was on a physical format. The more you reiterate this like you have for the last 2 years and threads you created sounds more like you just need to say you can't really afford gaming as much emphasis you talk about borrowing and selling.


The only real benefit it provides is the fact that a truly lazy person doesn't have to get his azz off the sofa.

:rolleyes:

Or it could mean I had a long day at work and I just happen to choose the option if given to download that tv show or game.

When I talk about "true gamers", I'm talking about the diehard gamers like myself, that have been gaming for 20 years or longer

I have been gaming just as long. Because I am no longer concerned about my friends borrowing my games or with some of my purchases being digital makes me less of a "true gamer" than you?

I seriously wonder if Anthony walks into a McDonald's and hems and haws about how he can't resell his $5 cheeseburger after he gets his 3 days of use out of it. Jesus Christ dude, we're talking about $5 full games that would not be possible in a retail setting and $10 expansion packs that used to cost us $20 at retail. You act like we are all complacent in getting screwed, over what amounts to the pocket change that buys my morning coffee. Again, you are denying yourself some pretty amazing gaming experiences over some misplaced sense of righteousness.

On the other hand, shifting around imaginary bits on a disc by hand is really goddamn stupid. Bits that make up Xbox 360 content only serve a purpose when used on the 360. Why do you think it makes any sort of sense to store those bits somewhere other than on the 360?

Your still stuck in Nintendo and Sega Genesis days. I don't know any people that are that concerned with someone borrowing a game. Especially with a 360/PS3 and Live/PSN. I sure as hell am not concerned about my buddy needing to borrow a game especially when he also likes to go on Live and play that game together. Like someone said before your missing out on alot of games on both consoles and trying to make it sound like you would turn a quick buck on a $10 game if it was on a physical format. The more you reiterate this like you have for the last 2 years and threads you created sounds more like you just need to say you can't really afford gaming as much emphasis you talk about borrowing and selling.


Wait, because people want to get rid of games when they are done with them, they are too poor to afford gaming?

I think Anthony1 is wrong on the PSN/XBL side for the simple reason that 90% of these games would not have been released period were it not for an infrastructure that does not rely on physical media and retail. There's just zero chance most of these games would've found a way to be released, at least not on console.

Given the option between no game and game that I can't sell/trade/borrow, I'll take the latter.

Wait, because people want to get rid of games when they are done with them, they are too poor to afford gaming?

I think Anthony1 is wrong on the PSN/XBL side for the simple reason that 90% of these games would not have been released period were it not for an infrastructure that does not rely on physical media and retail. There's just zero chance most of these games would've found a way to be released, at least not on console.

Given the option between no game and game that I can't sell/trade/borrow, I'll take the latter.

Where in my post did I say people that think this way are considered poor? I was talking about Anthony1 with his history of repeatly stressing about the ability to sell or let a friend borrow a game. Either way I don't see why you would have issue with my comment if I was talking about people in general when Anothony basically is telling everyone that all of us that do download or have in the past are not really "true gamers"

Gotta agree about alot of the games not seeing the light had they had to go the retail.

That said having bought a game on digital distrubtion not long ago and having had a chance to sit down with it. I'm really wishing I could sell it and re-coup almost anything above say $5 of the $30 I paid for it.

It will likely never get played again. I wish I had bought it retail so I could sell/trade/give it to someone else.

I don't know about anthony. But I always buy some games that are questionable, I can't quite tell from the review weather or not I'll really like it. Or just sort of random buy based on cover art/back of the box. These are games that I usally don't keep and I buy them with idea that I can sell them and buy another questionable game or a game I know is going to be a keeper.

Yes that hypocritial of me, I bought a questionable game on DD, I wanted to try the exerpince.
Now becuase I bought on DD I won't be buying another questionable game and will be sticking to games that I think will be keepers (You the big AAA games).

they don't have a hard time telling it's different. they know it looks better. they see it for themselves. but it's not like they go "wow, you can see their hair move.." or some stupid moment like that. i go "look you can even see the scratches on his arm" or something like that and they go, "uhhh... yeah..." but they were expecting the kind of jump you saw between VHS and DVD. and it's not that kind of a jump. and they say the same thing, if it cost the same, no issue, they'd go HD. but at the price it is, they say it's fine for DVD on a cheap comedy like you don't mess with the zohan.

and if the format is so great, then no matter what movie i stick in, it should be a wow moment. but it's not. you have to pick the right movie to have that wow moment. even The Dark Knight wasn't a wow moment for them. i stuck in both the dvd and hd version and they thought it looked better but they didn't go "the dvd version makes me puke".

and you can spout all the hype that's in the media about how much better film is than digital. but my friends thought sin city was so much crisper and nicer looking than the Dark Knight.

you can also find people who swear by how much better vinyl records sound than cd's.


On my mear 720p projector here is a huge differnce between DVD and HD DVD. It really does seem like a new gen. And as I said before I think the improvement in sound is where its at for the next gen of media content

Your still stuck in Nintendo and Sega Genesis days. I don't know any people that are that concerned with someone borrowing a game. Especially with a 360/PS3 and Live/PSN. I sure as hell am not concerned about my buddy needing to borrow a game especially when he also likes to go on Live and play that game together. Like someone said before your missing out on alot of games on both consoles and trying to make it sound like you would turn a quick buck on a $10 game if it was on a physical format. The more you reiterate this like you have for the last 2 years and threads you created sounds more like you just need to say you can't really afford gaming as much emphasis you talk about borrowing and selling.



It's not so much that I have a specialy thought ahead plan to let friends or family borrow games from me, but I don't like that "right" being taken away from me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.... I already know. When you buy a physical disk, you don't actually own that content, blah, blah, blah. Heard it a million times before. Yes, I know that I only own a license to play that game according to their terms, yada, yada, yada. But it doesn't change the fact that if I had a physical disk, I could let a friend borrow it, let a niece, let a nephew, etc, etc. Forget about the whole license thing for a moment, and understand that even though you might not "technically" have a right to sell that media like you own it.... people do it everyday and have been since gaming was invented.

As for being able to afford gaming, I don't think I would be posting on the AVS forums if I couldn't afford to be in this hobby. I have my own custom theater room...ya know. It's not a question of cost, it's a question of rights that I previously had (even if they "technically" aren't really my rights) being taken away. The problem, is that publishers are going to use this method of delivery to eventually remove our abilities to do anything that we used to do with the media we bought. It will start off slowly, but that is their eventual goal. Nobody is really complaining about it. I'm guessing once all our rights are completely gone, then a few people will realize exactly what just happened, and then they will start to complain but it will be too late at that point. Once again, I know that this is a runaway freight train that will never be stopped, but I think the train can be delayed, and that we shouldn't be awaiting this train with open arms just ready to throw cash all over it.


I seriously wonder if Anthony walks into a McDonald's and hems and haws about how he can't resell his $5 cheeseburger after he gets his 3 days of use out of it. Jesus Christ dude, we're talking about $5 full games that would not be possible in a retail setting and $10 expansion packs that used to cost us $20 at retail. You act like we are all complacent in getting screwed, over what amounts to the pocket change that buys my morning coffee. Again, you are denying yourself some pretty amazing gaming experiences over some misplaced sense of righteousness.



Again, the cost of the item doesn't really have much of anything to do with my argument. As for stuff costing 5 bucks, when was the last time there was a XBLA game that was only $5? I think it's been quite some time. Most of the games are $15, and occasionally, some are $10. If it costs you $15 or $10 to buy your morning coffee, then you definitely have an out of control caffeine addiciton. Still, again.... this talk of cost is just semantics. It's not about the cost of these games. It's about the DRM. I'm not so much anti digital download, as I am anti DRM that takes "perceived" rights away from me, that I've had for 20 plus years of gaming. The problem is, there will never be any DRM that allows us to do everything with the media that we could with a normal physical disk purchased at retail, so it's kind of a moot point. That's why I have the no digital download stance. I can't talk about a fairytale DRM scenario that is never going to happen, so to hell with all digital download stuff as far as I'm concerned, because I don't want to contribute to this problem. I will be dragged kicking and screaming into the DD era.




I think Anthony1 is wrong on the PSN/XBL side for the simple reason that 90% of these games would not have been released period were it not for an infrastructure that does not rely on physical media and retail. There's just zero chance most of these games would've found a way to be released, at least not on console.

Given the option between no game and game that I can't sell/trade/borrow, I'll take the latter.


You say given the option between no game and a game that you can't sell/trade/borrow, you'd take the latter. The problem with this statement, is that eventually EVERY single game will be in that latter category. By purchasing the relatively small amount of these games (considering overall game sales), you are voting with your wallet, and this vote is a yes vote to a DD future, that is a future in which you will NEVER be able to sell/trade/borrow/rent your games like you currently are able to now, free of any ridiculous restrictions. Sure, you might be thinking.... "Hmm, would I want to live in a world where a game like Braid or Shadow Complex doesn't exist? Or would I like to live in a world where those games exist, but one of the downsides to those games existing, is the fact that I'll never be able to share/trade/sell/borrow/rent them."

But the real reality, is that you are helping foster a world in which EVERY SINGLE GAME will eventually belong to that second category, a future that may have been put on hold, or delayed a few decades if people could only resist the temptation a bit better.


Anthony basically is telling everyone that all of us that do download or have in the past are not really "true gamers"

I don't believe I actually said that. Look, what I was really trying to convey, is that the "true", hardcore gamers among us, the ones that have been around since the early days, should see the writing on the wall, and should recognize that the publishers are in a testing phase with all of this stuff. We are voting with our wallets. The publishers are throwing alot of stuff on the wall, and trying to see what sticks. They are testing out different pricing strategies, and seeing just how much they can get away with, without too much of a PR hit. If only the really hardcore among us could resist the temptation, and send the publishers a message, it would be better for all of us in the long run. Yes, it would cause us short term pain, from a standpoint of having to deliberately avoid some of the quality gaming experiences, because of their delivery method, and the fact that if we support those games, then we are supporting that delivery method, and supporting the restrictive DRM that comes along with that delivery method. Unfortunatley, we are weak. We are too easily tempted. I think those of us that are buying this stuff left and right are short sided. We aren't thinking long term at all . Horse Armor was just the beginning. Those few goofballs that bought horse armor have done more damage to consumer rights for gamers than they will ever realize. Look at EA with Need for Speed Shift. They actually have a built in option where you can upgrade your car with Microsoft points, if you're too lazy to actually play the game and unlock those cars the normal way. I mean, they actually went so far as to build it into the game itself, for the ultimate in lazyness. Horse Armor was just the tip of the iceberg. If Bethesda had put that horse armor out there, and not one single person bought it, and if EA had tried their experiments, and not one single person bought it, then these publishers would have abandoned these tactics. But unfortunately, our worst fears have been realized, and enough goofballs ( there is another word I would really like to use, but it's not politically correct :) ) actually bought some of this stuff, that we are going to live in a world where Microsoft can charge us $2 for a different colored shoe for our Avatars with a straight face.

Anthony1 I understand and respect your point. But your living in the past bro and you know. You can hold on as long as you want, but change will happen whether you like it or not.

I heard an amazing stat yesterday. That CD sales still account for 60% of all music sales. I say amazing because I havent bought a physical music CD since Sade Lovers Rock 10 years ago. But the same source that indicated the 60%, said that considering the rate at which Music is bought by DD.. that number would will be reduced to under 50% this time next year.

I chose music as an example.. because changes happen to audio first, before they happen to video, gaming or multimedia. Audio is always an indicator for whats 'next' in the world of AVS.

There are million more examples of how the world is changing to DD. Look at the push for electronic billing and transactions. I cant even go into DMV and renew my drivers license anymore.. its a form you must complete online or over the telephone and the DL will be mailed to you.

You can hold on as long as you like bro.. but the same reasons gaming went from cartridges to optical discs.. is the same reasons gaming will go from optical discs to digital downloads. Its just a matter of time.

You say given the option between no game and a game that you can't sell/trade/borrow, you'd take the latter. The problem with this statement, is that eventually EVERY single game will be in that latter category

I know that, and in fact thought about it when I made the post.

But here's the thing, in a world where EVERY game is DD-only and DRM-encrused and whatever, well, it's not like I will stop playing games. I'll still buy them. It'd probably be a LOT less than I do now, and I doubt I am alone. This is why I don't think these changes are coming any time soon.

Already I've pretty much stopped buying games on Steam because I bought some clunkers and was stuck. Hell that is where my POV changed.

However! In the meantime, you cannot deny the existence of games like Braid and Shadow Complex and Speedball 2 (I'm the only one that bought it, see), is a good thing. This is an upside to the situation. A lot of these developers now can get their ideas out there and get paid instead of slaving away on some crummy Tony Hawk or Tomb Raider and hoping to work their way up the ladder.

Horse Armor was just the tip of the iceberg. If Bethesda had put that horse armor out there, and not one single person bought it, and if EA had tried their experiments, and not one single person bought it, then these publishers would have abandoned these tactics.

The fact is that most people love it. The forum nerds laughed at horse armor where everyone else bought it up.

Forum nerds love some stuff though. I can't believe how many PC gamers I see on the forums saying "I only buy my games on Steam." It's nuts man but what can you do?

Nowadays I hate a lot of what the industry is doing, with preorder bonuses and DLC coming out a week after launch. I avoid it all but I am only one of millions.

You know optical media has DRM!
What?! Really? you say
Yeah
Stick it in your pc and try to play it, or access the music off the disc etc etc.


Bill Gates said he wanted to move to all digital distribution method
Windows Vista was supposed to be amazing, personal feelings aside gents, it was very poorly received hence the rush for 7.

My point being its a not for sure digital distribution is going to come and ruin everything with horrible DRM.

Here’s a scenario. You download your game on to cheap 500gb solid state drive/regular hard drive.
You take it with you to a buddies and plug it in like a memory card.
You guys play
he offers you money for it. You transfer it and all right to him.


As for getting crap for pre-ordering games. That's made me stop. I don't like feeling like I've been cherished into ordering a game.

But here's the thing, in a world where EVERY game is DD-only and DRM-encrused and whatever, well, it's not like I will stop playing games. I'll still buy them. It'd probably be a LOT less than I do now, and I doubt I am alone. This is why I don't think these changes are coming any time soon.

Unfortunately, I think these changes are coming much sooner than you might think. Publishers have been throwing all this crap at the wall to see what sticks, and I can guarantee you that they are amazed at just how much of their crap is sticking to the wall. I'm talking about buying clothes for our Avatar's and buying themes and gamer picks. You know that Microsoft internally is just laughing hysterically at how gullible we are to spend actual real money on such nonsense. I'd imagine that originally publishers probably felt that the DD revolution was still a very long ways away, but after they watch people spend real cash on such tomfoolery, they are fast tracking all their DD timelines.



However! In the meantime, you cannot deny the existence of games like Braid and Shadow Complex and Speedball 2 (I'm the only one that bought it, see), is a good thing. This is an upside to the situation. A lot of these developers now can get their ideas out there and get paid instead of slaving away on some crummy Tony Hawk or Tomb Raider and hoping to work their way up the ladder.

There are definitely some nice experiences to be had on PSN and XBLA. I'm not going to deny that. I download all the free trials and try them out. It's just so unfortunate that the discovery of these gems has to be related to the DD revolution. I think these games could work just fine on a physical disk, if they were priced at $19.99 or $14.99 or $9.99 or whatever. But I will agree that publishers would have never believed that smaller, more creative games would have worked so well in the marketplace. So it took the less risk of up front costs to make it all happen. Again, I'm not so much against the entire idea of DD, it's just the DRM that naturally comes with it. I also know that eventually there will be a bit more consumer friendly DRM, but we will never have the rights we had with physical media. And that is quite depressing.





Nowadays I hate a lot of what the industry is doing, with preorder bonuses and DLC coming out a week after launch. I avoid it all but I am only one of millions.

It's that line of thinking that causes millions of Americans to never register to vote. They think that one vote among millions isn't going to matter. But what happens, is that you have millions of people thinking this same thing. And if they all got off their ass to register to vote, then maybe we wouldn't be in some of the messes that we find ourselves in as a country. You know the saying.... "You're either part of the problem or part of the solution". Again, I know it's hard to resist the temptation, and I know in the grand scheme of things that this issue isn't as important as cancer or anything like that... I mean... we're just talking about freaking video gaming after all, but....




Here’s a scenario. You download your game on to cheap 500gb solid state drive/regular hard drive.
You take it with you to a buddies and plug it in like a memory card.
You guys play
he offers you money for it. You transfer it and all right to him.




Well, there are a couple of things I need to say about your scenario.

1. Does Microsoft, Nintendo, Sony, Steam or Direct to Drive allow you to do this currently? No, they don't. Sony does allow you to put some of the PSN games on up to 5 different PS3 systems, and if you are O.K. with giving out your password and login information to somebody else, then you can effectively "share" your PSN games with others, or even sell them it. However, you aren't actually transfering your license to the game to anybody else, and if something happens to that persons harddrive, they won't be able to redownload that game. So, at the moment, none of the major companies that are involved in DD allow you to do the scenario you're imagining. What makes you think they are going to change their ways anytime soon?

2. Will a major gaming company eventually offer a scenario similar to the one you're suggesting? Yes, eventually one of them will. Well, to a degree they will. The only reason they will, is to try to get the last group of holdouts. To try to make their DRM policies seem a bit more consumer friendly. But here's the thing... They aren't going to allow it to work exactly as you describe. They will have it thoroughly laced with restrictions, clauses and fees. It will be like reading the fine print of a cellular contract. It's pretty much a forgone conclusion that if any of the companies actually allow you to do any of this, that they will make it so restrictive, and complicated, that most consumers will basically just succumb to the New World Order of digital media, and they won't bother with it, cause it will just be too much of a headache. The companies will be able to use it in their advertising, so they can make their DRM "sound" consumer friendly, but then while the ad is on the screen there will be tons of tiny fine print to read about all the restrictions. And you can better believe that if any company actually lets you transfer the rights, they will have limitations on that, and also have a transfer fee. Imagine if you had to pay Microsoft a 10 dollar fee to sell one of your physical Xbox 360 games on Ebay. What would be the point? After paying Microsoft their $10 fee, to be able to transfer the rights, what would you gain by actually selling it? Probably not much of anything, which means that 95 percent of the populace won't even attempt it. Which is exactly what they want.

What I'm basically getting at, is that even if your scenario actually comes to fruition, it will never be anything like it was when you could just buy a physical disk at a store and pretty much do whatever you damn well please with it.

I'm not going to reply directly to what you said as you seem to have decided an aploplipc scenarios.

Were on the 360 forum so I will give you the grace that you haven't bought any Blu-Rays with DVD]s with DD.

I get home from X store, I pop the dvd in my computer and it asks me which copy I would like of the movie, I-pod, zune, or play for sure.

I select play for sure and plug in my archos 605. I copy the movie over to it in hard drive mode using a simple copy and paste. and it works.

My point? Sometimes DRM can work for both parties.

Now if read the fine print some only authorize the DD for the first few months a movie is out, others longer

I wish they had a download version for every game. I preordered ODST from Gamestop for $60. I would much rather pay $60 for a digital download. Then I would never have to move a disc between my four 360's and I wouldn't need to drive to the Gamestop to pick up the disc. If they had a digital download option for all titles I would never buy a disc again.

I do agree with Anthony on many of his issues. If the next gen of gaming is Digital Distribution, then my days of gaming are over. I have been playing since pong (42 now) and I have zero use for digital distribution. I use Gamefly ALOT (saves me money on games, especially horrible one's that I would have bought if I did not have Gamefly). I wish I would have GF'ed Res 2 (what a POS) that game turned out to be. I like physical media. I love having Blu-Ray's to watch over and over again if I like. No way is Digitally Distributed movies going to match the PQ & AQ of Blu-Ray (plus with out Network Infrastructure it will take forever to download movies and games). My brother and I both have PS3's and lend games to each other, with DD that will NOT be possible. I also like to trade in games when I am done and purchase new one's, can't do that with DD. Let's not forget all the restrictive DRM that these games/movies will be laced with. Anyone here ever hear of Root-Kits, yeah thought so. Fight the good Fight Anthony, I am behind you 100%.

I do agree with Anthony on many of his issues. If the next gen of gaming is Digital Distribution, then my days of gaming are over. I have been playing since pong (42 now) and I have zero use for digital distribution. I use Gamefly ALOT (saves me money on games, especially horrible one's that I would have bought if I did not have Gamefly). I wish I would have GF'ed Res 2 (what a POS) that game turned out to be. I like physical media. I love having Blu-Ray's to watch over and over again if I like. No way is Digitally Distributed movies going to match the PQ & AQ of Blu-Ray (plus with out Network Infrastructure it will take forever to download movies and games). My brother and I both have PS3's and lend games to each other, with DD that will NOT be possible. I also like to trade in games when I am done and purchase new one's, can't do that with DD. Let's not forget all the restrictive DRM that these games/movies will be laced with. Anyone here ever hear of Root-Kits, yeah thought so. Fight the good Fight Anthony, I am behind you 100%.

I've been gaming since pong too!!:D

Same age as you for another week.

Digital downloads are much more convenient for me. For movies, if the digital download experience were to mirror the Blu-ray Disc experience I would jump at the chance to stop using discs. But that won't happen anytime soon. For games though there is no difference. I don't loan titles to anyone, and I can always rent a title first before purchasing it. But since I use multiple 360's, it's a PITA to move the disc from machine to machine. I use my MU to move my Gamertag between machines, and if I could just have the game on the hard drive, without having to insert a disc it would make things so much easier.

I have a couple of points here:

@Anthony: I think you're making a big leap from games that are generally small, inexpensive and download-only to full release games. So far, download only full releases haven't done nearly as well through XBL. That's partly due to pricing and partly due to people being anti-DRM or possibly not wanting to wait the hours it takes for a full release to download. So, in short, just because XBL "indie" games are successful doesn't mean full release downloads will be.

On downloading music: To me that's a completely different scenario. Amazon has been DRM free forever and Apple finally wised up recently, which shows how important a lack of DRM "protection" is to people. As such, people can now create their own CDs with downloaded content and copy it and move it however many times they want, something that isn't possible with games.

@Anthony: I think you're making a big leap from games that are generally small, inexpensive and download-only to full release games. So far, download only full releases haven't done nearly as well through XBL. That's partly due to pricing and partly due to people being anti-DRM or possibly not wanting to wait the hours it takes for a full release to download. So, in short, just because XBL "indie" games are successful doesn't mean full release downloads will be.



The only reason you aren't seeing big, flagship releases on DD, is because the big 3 still need retail. If MS were to have Halo ODST also available via download, retailers would have a freaking aneurysm. Same thing if Sony allowed Uncharted 2 to also be available via download. Microsoft and Sony would like nothing more than to make ALL their games available via DD but they have to walk a fine line with the retailers. They can't piss off the retailers too much, because they are still in the thick of a console war, and they can't afford some retailer showing favoritism to another platform, because that platform isn't screwing them over.

Sony and Microsoft will continue to slowly offer more and more experiences like Burnout Paradise on PS3, and the older retail games that are now available on 360. At a certain point in time, they are just going to say F it, and they are going to screw the retailers completely, and they will just deal with the ramifications that come along with that. Do you think that it's a coincidence that Microsoft is going to start opening hundreds of retail outlets around the country? Possibly even thousands? Gee, I wonder why?

The big 3 will eventually go 100 percent DD, and the retailers be damned. They will advertise more on TV, have a 1-800 number, and a website for console ordering, and they will ship the console right to your doorstep. For those that like a more personal touch, they will go to the local Microsoft store, or Sony Style store or whatever. I think part of the reason this current console generation is going to be extended beyond the usual 5 to 6 year period, is because the longer it takes, the more likely they can get away with removing optical media completely.

It's not just the retailers Anthony1. Fact is that the amount of people for which it is feasible to download 6-7 gig games (in the case of Xbox 360) is really small. The amount of people for which it is feasible to download 25 gig games (Uncharted 2) is even smaller. Most of the broadband out there in this country sucks ass.

Not to mention, how many kids have credit card(s) or credit card access?
That said I was surfing my banks website and they now have visa for kids, and kid they had a picture of, was a young girl, probaly 9http://cibc.com/ca/img/ks-smartstart.jpg

Not to mention, how many kids have credit card(s) or credit card access?
That said I was surfing my banks website and they now have visa for kids, and kids they had a picture of a young girl, probaly 9

Holy crap. You want to talk about the real villains in this country...

I've been gaming since pong too!!:D

Same age as you for another week.

Digital downloads are much more convenient for me. For movies, if the digital download experience were to mirror the Blu-ray Disc experience I would jump at the chance to stop using discs. But that won't happen anytime soon. For games though there is no difference. I don't loan titles to anyone, and I can always rent a title first before purchasing it. But since I use multiple 360's, it's a PITA to move the disc from machine to machine. I use my MU to move my Gamertag between machines, and if I could just have the game on the hard drive, without having to insert a disc it would make things so much easier.

Nice. We are the same age (at least for a week). Your point about renting games comes to an end if Digital Distribution is implemented. Gamefly will cease to exist, and that will upset me. I use them all the time. I don't want to be forced to buy every game I want to play. Some games you think will be great (RES 2) because of all the hype, and they turn out to be crap.

Nice. We are the same age (at least for a week). Your point about renting games comes to an end if Digital Distribution is implemented. Gamefly will cease to exist, and that will upset me. I use them all the time. I don't want to be forced to buy every game I want to play. Some games you think will be great (RES 2) because of all the hype, and they turn out to be crap.I don't see DD eliminating rentals--I see it going pretty much the way of DD video. Many sources of downloaded movies, like Amazon, allow both rental and purchase.

I will use DD, as soon as I get a larger HDD (replacing my launch-model 360 altogether) but I don't have any complex situation to deal with, like owning multiple Xboxes and/or wanting to take games with me to friends' homes. DD might not be for everyone and hopefully it's not forced on people anytime soon.

The only reason you aren't seeing big, flagship releases on DD, is because the big 3 still need retail. If MS were to have Halo ODST also available via download, retailers would have a freaking aneurysm. Same thing if Sony allowed Uncharted 2 to also be available via download. Microsoft and Sony would like nothing more than to make ALL their games available via DD but they have to walk a fine line with the retailers. They can't piss off the retailers too much, because they are still in the thick of a console war, and they can't afford some retailer showing favoritism to another platform, because that platform isn't screwing them over.

Sony and Microsoft will continue to slowly offer more and more experiences like Burnout Paradise on PS3, and the older retail games that are now available on 360. At a certain point in time, they are just going to say F it, and they are going to screw the retailers completely, and they will just deal with the ramifications that come along with that. Do you think that it's a coincidence that Microsoft is going to start opening hundreds of retail outlets around the country? Possibly even thousands? Gee, I wonder why?

The big 3 will eventually go 100 percent DD, and the retailers be damned. They will advertise more on TV, have a 1-800 number, and a website for console ordering, and they will ship the console right to your doorstep. For those that like a more personal touch, they will go to the local Microsoft store, or Sony Style store or whatever. I think part of the reason this current console generation is going to be extended beyond the usual 5 to 6 year period, is because the longer it takes, the more likely they can get away with removing optical media completely.

There's just no reasoning with you, is there?

By your logic Apple, having had Apple stores for years, should have pulled all of its products from store shelves by now. Instead, they actually reached an agreement to ADD products to Best Buy stores relatively recently.

You can take the "evil empires" stance all you want but neither Microsoft or Sony are stupid. They're not going to pull their products from retail stores where almost everyone has access to them in favor of a relative few specialized stores. Specialty stores really are only effective in propagating the "cool factor" of a brand, not necessarily making the most sales. That's what Microsoft's trying to accomplish with retail stores. I'm not saying it will be successful, but that's what they're trying for. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of say, the PS3's, sales are done through major retailers and non-Sony web sites, not Sony Style stores. It's not some evil plan to rob you of your optical media.

BTW, the reason the PSP Go is priced at $250 is because it needs to have a margin for retailers. Systems like 360 or PS3 really don't. Retailers won't stock it if they don't get the margin or the game sales.

I'm not sure MS wants to choose between selling the Xbox 720 for an extra $100 or having retailers not stock it. It's true there are more dynamics at play here, but the point is, retail moves a lot of product for these guys and you still have to keep them happy. The idea of MS giving the finger to the tens of thousands of retail chains and relying on a 1-800 number to move products is laughable.

Crossing my fingers that the 'As Seen on TV' stores will carry it.

I think that retailers need manufacturers more than manufacturers need them. Selling people's products is all they do and they cannot exist without product to sell--they don't make anything. Manufacturers, on the other hand, can always find someone to sell what they make. Demand for the Xbox and Xbox games would not diminish if one or more retailers stopped carrying them and someone would take advantage of that ("Target and Best Buy aren't selling Xbox product? Okay, I'll go to Wal Mart--they're still selling them").

If demand for games on disc were to diminish because of the growing popularity of DD, retailers would act accordingly, the same as for any product whose demand fell for any other reason--they'd adjust the space and advertising for those products to befit projected sales. Perhaps a major new release title would be sold through DD as well as disc, but the download doesn't become available until a day or a week or whatever, after the disc comes out. The same midnight-of-release-day lines of eager fans would form around stores. (My housemate recently went on midnight runs for Madden 10 and again for The Beatles Rock Band, staying up and playing them all night :rolleyes:). Merely delaying DD until noon of release day would still result in plenty of disc sales for the biggest titles.

Didn't Valve pioneer this with Steam? I wonder how exactly that's worked out for them.

It's gone great for Valve, but all their games go to store shelves too. Valve doesn't release numbers so its impossible to say what the split is.

What I responding to was the idea that retailers would be up in arms and somehow retaliate if MS made major new releases available via DD as well as disc.

If we are all so worried, just keep voting with your dollars.

BF1943 is easily worth $15 bucks to me. So is Trials HD. (user created maps/tracks are DD by the way, which I will take over old NES cartridges any day)
Full priced DD games are NOT worth the money to me, for many of the reasons already mentioned.

I also think we don't know what the future holds for DD, so we shouldn't automatically fear ALL of it. That just seems ignorant.

When I'm talking about Microsoft selling their console directly with no retailer support, or Sony selling their console via their Sony Style stores, etc, etc, I'm talking about the future. Not about something thats going to happen in a couple of years. A year ago, I would have definitively told you that it's not going to happen for the "next" generation, but the one following that. However, as our "current" generation continues to be extended, there is always the possibility that MS and Sony consider moving up their plans an entire generation. If new consoles launch around 2012 and 2013, then I would say probably not. But if we don't see "true" followups to the 360 and PS3 till 2015 and 2016, then I can actually see them going all out on DD.

When I talk about no optical drive, I'm not saying that there won't be any possible way to play some kind of physical media. They will likely be able to accept some type of flash card type media. This will be the bridge for the people living in out of the way locations that have horrible broadband support. I could even see some possible idea where you have a special transfer drive, that is only used for the transfer of digital media. A proprietary flash drive looking device that you bring to a Microsoft store, or Sony Style store to "download" your new game onto it, and then you take it home and transfer the game to your console. It would be a 1 time deal. Once the transfer is done, that's it. This would allow Sony and Microsoft to get around the lack of broadband issue, and the slow download speed issue, and still eliminate any possible physical media that could ever be resold, rented, etc, etc.


The Holy Grail for Microsoft and Sony is to make $$$ on every video game related transaction that takes place. Think of all the transactions related to the Xbox 360 that take place on Ebay or Craigslist. Millions of transactions are taking place and money is changing hands, and Microsoft and Sony aren't getting any of it. The huge publishers aren't getting any of it. They all forsee a future in which this isn't going to be the case, and their ultimate goal is to get to that future sooner rather than latter. Are there issues preventing them from getting to that goal? Yes. But if you think 20 years from now we are still going to have the option of going to a place like GameStop, and buying the latest big game for the Sony or Microsoft system, you're kidding yourselves.

I think Physical Media will continue to be an option (for those who like physical copies or don't have high-speed internet or those who are just against DD in general).

But we already see the move towards digital distribution and anyone who buys any DLC, Arcade or Community games already uses it. We already deal with DLC and trying to "take it to our friend's house" or "not being able to let my friend borrow it" so I don't see a big leap here.

As for full-blown games, we already see that as well, but with some caveats they need to work out. Once they work out a few things, I will personally be all over it, with a few assumptions (there are many ways this could be handled, of course, and none of this has to happen):


Hard Drive Space: They need to offer more for less. I can pick up 1TB drives now for less than $100. Get rid of this proprietary, overpriced drive crap, or at least give us more space at a reasonable price. Game sizes (looking at PS3's Blu-Ray) can be tens of GB now.
Speaking of game sizes: Besides HDD space, there are two issues with game sizes as I see it: Download Time and Bandwidth Caps.

Download time is easy to deal with...there is no reason you have to download the entire game before you start playing (look at demos, for instance....there's no reason they can't program DD games to download the engine and the first level and let you start playing while the rest of the game downloads in the background, but of course for online games, like COD multiplayer, it would be an issue as you might have to wait for the download to complete first)
Bandwidth Caps are another thing entirely, but any mention of them (thus far) has resulted in consumer backlash and even politicians getting involved and speaking out against them. I expect this to be sorted out (one way or another) within a year or two, as laws are made around whether companies are allowed to do this or not. And even if they are, competitors (like FIOS) will step in and offer unlimited or "more" bandwidth than Comcrap or Time Warner or whatever.


Used Game Market: They could do a few things with this to alleviate those worries. Some ideas I can think of off the top of my head:


Offer the DD games at a discount
Offer a way to sell your license back to MS for the going rate for whatever game it is.
Offer the game at the normal price (or even a premium) the day after the game goes "gold"....we all know a game goes gold a few weeks before the game hits shelves due to the printing/packaging/shipping/stocking process. With DD, the only thing that needs to happen after it goes "gold" is to make it available on the servers. DD users would then pay the same price, but get it earlier than those who want to wait for the physical copy.



Anyways, I think we'd all be stupid to not think it's coming, but stupid as well in thinking they will get rid of the physical media portion. I'd feel safe in betting it will just be an additional option (like it is now). Heck, I won't be surprised (if the rumors of the 360 lasting another few years are true) that we actually see D&D releases via DD option this gen.

[I]Download time is easy to deal with...there is no reason you have to download the entire game before you start playing (look at demos, for instance....there's no reason they can't program DD games to download the engine and the first level and let you start playing while the rest of the game downloads in the background, but of course for online games, like COD multiplayer, it would be an issue as you might have to wait for the download to complete first)



Regarding this, I think for people that pre-order a game, they will allow you to start downloading it ahead of the games release. This way, at midnight on the date of the games release, it will be already on your HDD waiting for you.


As for the used game issue. I think both Microsoft and Sony will create some type of internal marketplace for used DD games/media. But basically, there will be fees on both ends. Fee's for purchasers and sellers. The concept will be PR friendly, and even seem somewhat consumer friendly, but ultimately, I think the fees will basically kill it for somebody like me that likes to buy and sell games via craigslist with zero fees whatsoever. I suppose one could say that it's better than nothing, but I'm guessing the fees will be at a level in which I would never use the service, making it virtually worth nothing to me as a service. Also, I'm sure there will be many restrictions and limitations that will go along with it. Such as the license could only be sold one time, etc, etc.

If MS and Sony want to be really greedy, then they will just offer a buy back program for all their DD content. They will pay pennies on the dollar like GameStop does, and pay you back in Microsoft points. Can you imagine if Microsoft and Sony were to basically take all the used game revenue away from GameStop? I'm sure they are salivating at the mere thought of it. They could take all that revenue away with an automated system that requires no store employees or physical locations. Of course, this option wouldn't help me whatsoever either. I never trade in anything to Gamestop, and I'm absolutely baffled by the masses that do. It's just so hard for me to comprehend buying a brand new game for $59.99, which translates to around $66 after tax, and then receiving like $7 store credit for that $66 that you spent. It's mind-boggling that the "great unwashed" goes for such a proposal. :)

I found an interview at Eurogamer (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/e3-microsofts-john-schappert-interview) with John Schappert, who at the time was MS' Corporate Vice President of LIVE, Software and Services for the Interactive Entertainment Business (IEB) (I say "at the time" because apparently Schappert returned to EA, his employer before Microsoft, in June, assuming the position of Chief Operating Officer). They spoke with him at E3 this year and he stated that Microsoft didn't have any plans for DD of new release titles (at least at that time):
Eurogamer: At the roundtable after your conference on Monday you revealed the games-on-demand service, which will include older games. Is there any plan to expand that to include new releases?

John Schappert: Not right now. Right now the plan is to have classic titles. We're talking about 30 titles at launch - I think we mentioned BioShock, Mass Effect, Sonic, Civilization Revolution. Some of these titles are great titles, but retail shelf space is at a premium, and not everything manages to stay at retail for as long as consumers would still like to buy it, and we generally think there's a lot of legs left on the 360 - we think we're only halfway through our cycle - so we want to pick up some of these older, great games you can't buy at retail.

Eurogamer: You can also make purchases with credit cards. Does that mean you're thinking of ditching Microsoft Points in the long term?

John Schappert: No, that's simply to facilitate purchasing of these games, which will be at higher price points obviously than standard Arcade games or microtransaction-based content that you have on Marketplace. You'll be able to use Microsoft Points as well, but rather than have to buy X-number of them, we thought this was an easier step.

Eurogamer: Can't you extend that to smaller purchases as well?

John Schappert: No plans right now.Of course, nothing says that they won't change their minds about that :).

Of course, nothing says that they won't change their minds about that :).


They aren't going to announce anything like that before they are ready to do it, and even then I don't think they will make an announcement at all. It will be done quietly with zero fanfare, like Sony did with Burnout Paradise. Still, I don't think we will see this happen on the 360 until a few years down the line, when the 360 is nearing the end of it's run.

Regardless of which media format the followup to the 360 ends up having (if it does have a media format), I'm sure EVERY game will be available via DD day and date with the retail release. (again, assuming they even have retail releases, heh heh)

Whats this thing about burn out paradise you keep talking about?

Athony by your therory all the big companies from Sony TV's to Samsung computer monitors would be sold in "apple" like stores or directly to the consumer.

I believe that he's talking about this (http://www.us.playstation.com/PS3/Games/Burnout_Paradise):
Fresh to the PS Store on September 25th, the entire game of Burnout Paradise will be available as a direct download to your PLAYSTATION 3 system's HDD. Also included is all the downloadable content to date including the Burnout Bikes pack, which brings motorcycles into Burnout for the first time, and the Cagney update pack that includes the online version of stunt run, marked man, and road rage! Simultaneously, you'll get trophy support, so show off your skills in Burnout Paradise with your friends or take it online to www.criteriongames.com and see where you rank in the world or use our exclusive PS3 map tool.This apparently happened in September, 2008, when the game was about 9 months old. It sold 20,000 copies in the first month (kind of piddling compared to good disc launch numbers, but the game was not fresh and most interested gamers would have had their copy by then).

My problem with the PS Store (and iTunes) is that they don't allow re-download of anything. If you buy something to own on XBL you can download it again. (Also true of Amazon Unbox video). Of course, with videos they don't promise to keep anything online forever, but I don't think that Microsoft has ever taken a piece of software down, be it an arcade title or a demo. (Last I looked, all of the launch title demos were still up, though I doubt that there's much interest in Kameo at this point :D). I may be wrong.

When I'm talking about Microsoft selling their console directly with no retailer support, or Sony selling their console via their Sony Style stores, etc, etc, I'm talking about the future. Not about something thats going to happen in a couple of years. A year ago, I would have definitively told you that it's not going to happen for the "next" generation, but the one following that. However, as our "current" generation continues to be extended, there is always the possibility that MS and Sony consider moving up their plans an entire generation. If new consoles launch around 2012 and 2013, then I would say probably not. But if we don't see "true" followups to the 360 and PS3 till 2015 and 2016, then I can actually see them going all out on DD.

As John Maynard Keynes said, in the long run we'll all be dead.

There's no point in me freaking out over what MS and Sony may have up their sleeves in 2015. Quite frankly if they want to pull the all-DD locked-for-life **** they will lose a lot of people and there's no guarantee game sales will automatically increase and GameStop will shrivel up and die and all the publishers will use all that extra money to fund the greatest games ever made. Maybe I'm just getting more cynical as I get older (perhaps folks that knew me in my youth would not think that is possible, but there it is!), but things are usually not as simple as they seem.

Markets adapt, Humans Adapt.
I can remeber when people were saying the disc was going to ruin gaming/consoles due to rampant piracy, massive load times etc etc..

My problem with the PS Store (and iTunes) is that they don't allow re-download of anything.

Just for clarification PS Store allows re-downloads of everything you purchase (EXCEPT Movie downloads). All games titles you download are available for re-download on up to 5 PS3s that YOU own.

[...] Of course, with videos they don't promise to keep anything online forever, but I don't think that Microsoft has ever taken a piece of software down, be it an arcade title or a demo. (Last I looked, all of the launch title demos were still up, though I doubt that there's much interest in Kameo at this point :D). I may be wrong.
Microsoft had, at one point, announced plans to de-list "under performing" Xbox Live Arcade titles, but this never actually came to pass. Part of the NXE re-design was to ensure that regardless of the amount of content, users would still be able to find what they were looking for, which may have made this a less urgent need.

However, it turns out that the Xbox Live Arcade title Lost Cities got lost in the shuffle when Activision picked up Sierra Online. It seems to have gone into a state of "no valid licensing agreement", causing it to be pulled. However, it is possible that users who have already purchased it can still go into their "Purchase History" and re-download it, and in any case, it's not that Microsoft or anyone else is actively trying to enforce single downloads; it just sort of happened with this title.

Just for clarification PS Store allows re-downloads of everything you purchase (EXCEPT Movie downloads). All games titles you download are available for re-download on up to 5 PS3s that YOU own.Ah--thank you, I didn't realize that. I've never purchased a game from the PS3 store, but I have purchased television episodes and lost them when I ran out of space and had to deleted them.

Not being able to re-download purchased video requires that you leave it on the storage to which you downloaded it forever. It might be possible to download video to a USB drive, but since the filesystem the PS3 requires on USB drives (FAT32) can't handle files larger than 4 GB, that's not an option for many HD movies. Of course, I believe that the PS Store hasn't offered an HD movie for purchase, so it's not a problem :).

Again, thanks for the correction. I apologize for posting misinformation.

DL only can't happen soon enough for me.

I think it's headed to a download only scenario. Why would the developers want to give a cut of the profits to Walmart and Gamestop?

In the PC world I simply won't buy a title unless it's available on Steam. I detest the inconvenience of swapping discs. I also hate the fact that $60 Xbox disc's are so fragile. My Xbox destroyed by COD4 disc.

DL only can't happen soon enough for me.

I think it's headed to a download only scenario. Why would the developers want to give a cut of the profits to Walmart and Gamestop?

In the PC world I simply won't buy a title unless it's available on Steam. I detest the inconvenience of swapping discs. I also hate the fact that $60 Xbox disc's are so fragile. My Xbox destroyed by COD4 disc.

I can't say I've ever had any disc damaged by any of my 360's.

Just for clarification PS Store allows re-downloads of everything you purchase (EXCEPT Movie downloads). All games titles you download are available for re-download on up to 5 PS3s that YOU own.
I think it's actually a hard limit of 5 total downloads per title. Hence, not "on up to 5 PS3s that you own", but "downloaded a total of 5 times, to any combination of up to 5 PS3s". Not that I own the system, but I believe there is a difference there... A finite number of downloads, even on the same system, versus an infinite number on the Xbox 360.

Of course, on the Xbox 360, with the high hardware failure rate, we wind up making use of that feature a lot more often than we'd like. Same for the license migration feature.

I think it's actually a hard limit of 5 total downloads per title. Hence, not "on up to 5 PS3s that you own", but "downloaded a total of 5 times, to any combination of up to 5 PS3s". Not that I own the system, but I believe there is a difference there... A finite number of downloads, even on the same system, versus an infinite number on the Xbox 360.


You could delete and download them daily if you want on the PS3. The 5 PS3 systems are tied to your PSN ID. You activate them almost in the same manner as activating different computers with your iTunes account. And you have to deactivate one if you want to activate another. There is no limit to how many times you download the title/content (other then video/media).

Okay, it's pretty obvious that nobody here actually knows the limitations of PSN downloads. Somebody want to go find an official statement off of one of Sony's sites so that we can all know the correct answer?

You have a PSN ID.
You can link that ID to 5 PS3's.
You can log into the store using that ID on any of those PS3's.
You have a download history on the PS Store.
You can re-download anything that is in your history onto any of those 5 PS3's.

You cannot redownload videos that you bought. Certain items that are shared (beta's or code redeemable items), will cause a 24 hour lockout on the account. This is the only sketchy area.

OK, well, I stand corrected.