I'm taking myself out of the Theta HDMI upgrade fracas. I would need to upgrade DACs plus the HDMI card install costs. Five grand plus is more than I'm willing to spend. HDMI into my Lumagen XD is working fine.

I currently have Xtreme/Superior I/Standard cards and an Oppo BDP83. I'm thinking about using its analogue outputs to a six shooter for DTS-HD and True-HD. Will this be a major sound upgrade from digital out from the Oppo to my Xtreme DAC? Comments on the cost:benefit ratio would be appreciated along with user opinions.

Not ever hearing the CBIII I would say full spec lossy sent to it digitally would be far superior then lossless out of the Oppo's analog section. You are getting more then just the benefit of DACs. The difference between quality processing and DACs is MUCH greater then full spec lossy and lossless IMO.

My old Toshiba XA1 HD DVD via Six Shooter even in Dolby Digital Plus was better sounding than using a coaxial cable to my Xtreme DACs.

Don't know how good DACs and analog outs of Oppo sound - I use it as HDMI transport.

Per Tyree, who has tried them all, best sound with Six Shooter is Pioneer 09 using analog outs. If you need one, PM me and I know where to go.

As for new Theta Compli Blu, I don't know if they've done anything to change and improve the DACs and analog output, you may be just getting an Oppo with a better power supply which yes should improve analog out sonics some. But I understand the P ioneer is a beast of a unit.

I understand your hesitation in the upgrade due to the cost of Xtreme DACs. Unless you find a swingin' deal on a CB3 with Xtreme DACs on Audiogon like Bulldogger did. You might find it.

I'd guess the analog out of the Oppo would sound better. Starting from a hi-rez place is a whole different ballgame, and the Six Shooter will provide pretty transparent passthru. You can't add resolution that isn't there. The difference between good DACs (generally, not talking about the Oppo/Theta here) gets overrated sometimes, and the difference between the recording quality of the source material gets waaaay underrated.

I use an Onkyo 9.8 for soundtracks fed by the Oppo digitally. My CBIII lies in wait, though it's what I use for music. If I get a chance, I'll compare the Oppo's analog outs thru the Six Shooter vs. the Onkyo fed digitally for lossless stuff.

I received one private response stating that compresed via the Theta DACs was far superior to lossless via the Oppo DACs. The suggestion was to bypass the Theta totally if I wanted to use the Oppo as a source and just get a cheap Denon receiver as a volume control for the Oppo.

My old Toshiba XA1 HD DVD via Six Shooter even in Dolby Digital Plus was better sounding than using a coaxial cable to my Xtreme DACs.

Don't know how good DACs and analog outs of Oppo sound - I use it as HDMI transport.

Per Tyree, who has tried them all, best sound with Six Shooter is Pioneer 09 using analog outs. If you need one, PM me and I know where to go.

As for new Theta Compli Blu, I don't know if they've done anything to change and improve the DACs and analog output, you may be just getting an Oppo with a better power supply which yes should improve analog out sonics some. But I understand the P ioneer is a beast of a unit.

I understand your hesitation in the upgrade due to the cost of Xtreme DACs. Unless you find a swingin' deal on a CB3 with Xtreme DACs on Audiogon like Bulldogger did. You might find it.

DD+ was not much more then DTS, but sometimes from a remaster. Fact is full spec lossy is different and much better then what was ever used on DVD. There differences between full spec lossy and lossless are minor at best. I lived with lossless through the A1, then using a PS3 and A1 through a Rotel 1069 when it was first released. I had the opportunity to jump on a legacy Classe SSP 600 while waiting and saving for an SSP 800. At best I was hoping for better quality 2 Channel music and all other DD playback including gaming, TV etc with equal SQ using my Oppo for lossless. To my surprise full spec lossy through my Classe SSP 600 sounded better then lossless through my Rotel or Oppo.

YMMV

I received one private response stating that compresed via the Theta DACs was far superior to lossless via the Oppo DACs. The suggestion was to bypass the Theta totally if I wanted to use the Oppo as a source and just get a cheap Denon receiver as a volume control for the Oppo.

A cheap Denon receiver will s-uck vs. the Six Shooter if you go that route. Not sure your PMer knows what they're talking about.

Having listened to the following in our reference system:
1)Toshba A-35 via HDMI to Integra DTC-9.8
2)Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD via HDMI to DTC-9.8
3)BDP-09FD Analogue via Theta Six Shooter
4)Oppo BDP-83 via HDMI to DTC-9.8
5)BDP-83 analogue via Theta Six Shooter
6)BDP-09FD via Coax in to Theta Casablanca III Extreme DACs w/ lossy codecs
7) A-35 via coax to CB III Extreme DACs w/ lossy codecs

I rate them by number as follows: #3 by a wide margin, 2, 1 & 4, 6, 7, 5.
I will comment if you wish. Regards, Norm

I received one private response stating that compresed via the Theta DACs was far superior to lossless via the Oppo DACs. The suggestion was to bypass the Theta totally if I wanted to use the Oppo as a source and just get a cheap Denon receiver as a volume control for the Oppo.

The older Panasonic blu-ray player is inferior even playing lossless to the Xtreme dacs. ToshibaHD-DVD A10 with the Six Shooter was better like Steve says.The Pioneer player is the only one that I would consider. I waited so long for the upgrade that I am getting it. I was able to sell my CBIII with Superior II cards on ebay and then buy a new one with two Xtreme dacs. It cost me 1500.00 to make the upgrade. The Xtreme card in your processor is going to become much more valuable now.

Having listened to the following in our reference system:
1)Toshba A-35 via HDMI to Integra DTC-9.8
2)Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD via HDMI to DTC-9.8
3)BDP-09FD Analogue via Theta Six Shooter
4)Oppo BDP-83 via HDMI to DTC-9.8
5)BDP-83 analogue via Theta Six Shooter
6)BDP-09FD via Coax in to Theta Casablanca III Extreme DACs w/ lossy codecs
7) A-35 via coax to CB III Extreme DACs w/ lossy codecs

I rate them by number as follows: #3 by a wide margin, 2, 1 & 4, 6, 7, 5.
I will comment if you wish. Regards, Norm

Hi Norm:

Just wondering if you had the opportunity to test the analog outs of the new Sony BDP-CX7000ES with your 6 shooter?

Having listened to the following in our reference system:
1)Toshba A-35 via HDMI to Integra DTC-9.8
2)Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD via HDMI to DTC-9.8
3)BDP-09FD Analogue via Theta Six Shooter
4)Oppo BDP-83 via HDMI to DTC-9.8
5)BDP-83 analogue via Theta Six Shooter
6)BDP-09FD via Coax in to Theta Casablanca III Extreme DACs w/ lossy codecs
7) A-35 via coax to CB III Extreme DACs w/ lossy codecs

I rate them by number as follows: #3 by a wide margin, 2, 1 & 4, 6, 7, 5.
I will comment if you wish. Regards, Norm

Surprised you rate 6 over 5, much as I like the Extreme DACs. Will have to check this out.

Having listened to the following in our reference system:
1)Toshba A-35 via HDMI to Integra DTC-9.8
2)Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD via HDMI to DTC-9.8
3)BDP-09FD Analogue via Theta Six Shooter
4)Oppo BDP-83 via HDMI to DTC-9.8
5)BDP-83 analogue via Theta Six Shooter
6)BDP-09FD via Coax in to Theta Casablanca III Extreme DACs w/ lossy codecs
7) A-35 via coax to CB III Extreme DACs w/ lossy codecs

I rate them by number as follows: #3 by a wide margin, 2, 1 & 4, 6, 7, 5.
I will comment if you wish. Regards, Norm

And having known Norm for a long time, I think his "findings" are very credible and reliable.

Surprised you rate 6 over 5, much as I like the Extreme DACs. Will have to check this out.
Robert, I have great respect for the Oppo, in fact I've had three close friends get it for their systems. I add one caveat to the recommendation, I would use it as an HDMI transport only. It is fast loading, has a great picture for BD, is one of the best BD players for SD DVD, has good SQ over HDMI, and is the best value in the marketplace.
What it doesn't do well is analogue audio. I find the audio through its analogue outputs to be somewhat strident, with a distinct loss of dimension, and more than a bit fatiguing. Thus even though the lossless tracks have more info, I find them a less enjoyable experience through the Oppo's analogue outputs.
That being said, I think the only reason to go with a "high-end" BD player is if one needs to use the analogue outputs. Otherwise the Oppo fills the need just fine.
I have come to the conclusion that the best sound available from BD is to use the analogue outputs of one of the "high-end" players. Right now that means the Elite or Denon players. I look forward to the upcoming Marantz, Lexicon, and Theta BD players also.
I would as well like to hear the new Classe SSP as I understand they may be the first ones to have conquered the HDMI audio bugaboo. And of course I still hope the CB III comes to fruition as I believe Theta will do a great job of HDMI or they won't do it.
Let me add that most of the critical listening that led to these conclusions has been concert video as I found the music to be much more revealing of the difference in components than film soundtracks. Regards, Norm

Hi Norm:

Just wondering if you had the opportunity to test the analog outs of the new Sony BDP-CX7000ES with your 6 shooter?
LJ, I have not had occasion to audition the Sony changer. I'm not real fond of changers for high end use, but if I had an Escient Vision, I'd definitly give a whirl. Regards, Norm

Has anyone here heard the Krell Evolution 707? It is big bucks but supports HDMI 1.3 Et All?
Thanks.
Ash

Has anyone here heard the Krell Evolution 707? It is big bucks but supports HDMI 1.3 Et All?
Thanks.
Ash

Have not heard it but have gotten a chance to see the internals compared to the Casablanca thanks to the "devil" :D http://s716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/?action=view&current=707inside2.jpg http://s716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/?action=view&current=Extremeclose.jpg http://s716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/?action=view&current=ThetaCB3.jpg Maybe some of the engineering guys can have a look over parts selection. Lexicon http://s716.photobucket.com/albums/ww161/DougWinsor/?action=view&current=smr_41.jpg all twelve channels vs just four channels on Xtreme.

The Krell 707 Is a Beast....

The Krell 707 Is a Beast....

I do not see the build for 30k vs the Casablanca with Xtremes that I bought for 4.5k used. It could sound better? Do not know.

The other factor for me making a switch would be the track record of some of these companies. Sound quality is not the only factor as we are finding with Theta. I do not know anything about Krell's history.

Keep in mind that Norm's subjective conclusions re sound quality are applicable to those of us with a Theta Six Shooter multi-channel analog preamp or a stand alone preamp of equal quality - other surround processors do not have a free standing analog multi-channel preamp and I would think the sonics of running multi-channel analog through them from say a Pioneer 09 would be compromised in comparison.

The Anthem D2 has the option of analog direct also. I haven't heard it in anything close to a music type system so can't comment on the sound. Does quite well on film. Not doing the ADC-DAC conversion to an analog signal is something I always look for in a prepro.

I agree with Norm that music is more revealing of differences. Film soundtracks tend to be a bit processed. Hard to tell sometimes what is making the difference. Tends to work out that way on pop music too.

The SS is a excellent sounding preamp. One question I've had and don't recall ever seeing an answer is whether it's active or simply a passive volume control. Theta has block schematic diagrams on about everything but I've never seen the SS. If it is a passive line stage* it could explain my impressions and that of others I've seen posted. The SS seems ever so slightly restrained in dynamics in comparison to a signal run directly through the CB. This is a typical gripe about passive preamps versus active.

*And yes before someone manages to make a fuss over it I know that passive preamp/line stage is an oxymoron. I'm rather pragmatic about such things. Once the words are in the vernacular I don't worry about it. Any more than I worry about that properly a Crescent wrench is really an adjustable wrench unless you bought it from Crescent Tool. I guess that puts me on the linguist side of the linguistic/grammarian feud.

What it doesn't do well is analogue audio. I find the audio through its analogue outputs to be somewhat strident, with a distinct loss of dimension, and more than a bit fatiguing. Thus even though the lossless tracks have more info, I find them a less enjoyable experience through the Oppo's analogue outputs...
Let me add that most of the critical listening that led to these conclusions has been concert video as I found the music to be much more revealing of the difference in components than film soundtracks. Regards, Norm

I find music much more revealing too, but the relevant comparison for me is whether the BD film soundtracks via analog outs on the Oppo surpass lossy via the Extreme DACs. Not only because that would be 95% of my use of the Oppo's analog outs, but also because some of the qualities I value in music playback (ability to portray space/depth, for ex.), are far less important for soundtracks than resolution. Will have to compare on my own.

While I know Oppo put more energy into the analog outs on the 83 than its SD players, I don't doubt that the Pioneer is far superior, as it should be for the money. Had an early Pioneer Elite DVD player -- forgot the model #, but a real tank -- it sounded quite good on CDs via analog outs. As a company, they're certainly capable.

T If it is a passive line stage* it could explain my impressions and that of others I've seen posted. The SS seems ever so slightly restrained in dynamics in comparison to a signal run directly through the CB. This is a typical gripe about passive preamps versus active.



Two of the inputs are active and one is passive. The one that the CBIII connects to is passive. That is what I was told. Steve is running his Intergra through one of the active inputs.

I'd expect the CB input to be essentially a straight wire with a switch.

Two of the inputs are active and one is passive. The one that the CBIII connects to is passive. That is what I was told. Steve is running his Intergra through one of the active inputs.

Exactly. Input 1 has both balanced and single-ended. My PS Audio PerfectWave DAC is connected to the front left and front right balanced inputs at input 1. My Theta Compli 5.1 multi-channel is connected to Six Shooter input 1 single-ended inputs. My Integra 9.8 (for Blu Ray and HD DVD) is connected 5.1 multi-channel into Six Shooter input 2.

The Anthem D2 has the option of analog direct also. I haven't heard it in anything close to a music type system so can't comment on the sound. Does quite well on film. Not doing the ADC-DAC conversion to an analog signal is something I always look for in a prepro.



Though very good, the D2 analog passthru is not as good as the SS. I've had both in my room and the SS is much more involving.

I do not tap my feet as much with the D2.

Two of the inputs are active and one is passive. The one that the CBIII connects to is passive. That is what I was told. Steve is running his Intergra through one of the active inputs.
Bulldogger is 100% right. The proof of this is the CB input will pass through with the AC disconnected, the two analogue inputs will not. Regards, Norm

The Krell 707 Is a Beast....
The 707 is a video processing joke for the price. It uses the outdated Faroudja solution, and at $30,000 an embarasment.
Tom Wilkinson wrote in Ultimate AV:
"Yikes! I didn't notice that! I zoomed in on the original of that shot, and the chip is the FLI2310-LF. I don't know what the "LF" represents, but the FLI2310 is over six years old, and it has some often-reported "color splotching" problems. I've sent Krell a message asking why they chose this chip over HQV, DVDO, Marvell, or another more recent processor. It certainly seems to be unworthy of such an expensive flagship product."
I would definitely reconsider. Regards, Norm

The 707 is a video processing joke for the price. It uses the outdated Faroudja solution.


A fully loaded CBIII with futur hdmi upgrade will have...none. Is it a bigger embarasment ?

A fully loaded CBIII with futur hdmi upgrade will have...none. Is it a bigger embarasment ?

That depends what you want. Heck, you want video processing, get it in your projector. Or get it in an external video processor. Or use the Blu Ray player like an Oppo to do it. Do you really need it in a high end surround processor? What I wanted was simply a transparent HDMI video pass through - and ATI-Theta listened to me and gave us this. So blame me!!@@@:D

That depends what you want. Heck, you want video processing, get it in your projector. Or get it in an external video processor. Or use the Blu Ray player like an Oppo to do it. Do you really need it in a high end surround processor? What I wanted was simply a transparent HDMI video pass through - and ATI-Theta listened to me and gave us this. So blame me!!@@@:D
Steve, I totally agree. At this level the best course is to provide a transparent video passthough, and let the user choose his own external poison. Regards, Norm

Having listened to the following in our reference system:
1)Toshba A-35 via HDMI to Integra DTC-9.8
2)Pioneer Elite BDP-09FD via HDMI to DTC-9.8
3)BDP-09FD Analogue via Theta Six Shooter
4)Oppo BDP-83 via HDMI to DTC-9.8
5)BDP-83 analogue via Theta Six Shooter
6)BDP-09FD via Coax in to Theta Casablanca III Extreme DACs w/ lossy codecs
7) A-35 via coax to CB III Extreme DACs w/ lossy codecs

I rate them by number as follows: #3 by a wide margin, 2, 1 & 4, 6, 7, 5.
I will comment if you wish. Regards, Norm

Norm, aren't we missing a few here?

DIdn't you originally do both a HD DVD player and a Blu Ray player analog out to the Six Shooter. Then didn't you get a Denon 2808CI receiver? And then on my suggestion you moved "up" to the Integra 9.8? How did they sound in your comparison?

When I initially had a Toshiba HD-XA1 HD DVD player, it sounded clearly better even on Dolby Digital Plus than DVD Dolby Digital into my Theta CB3. The XA1 was connected via multi-channel analog cables then to the Six Shooter.

But what I didn't like was a bit of a dynamic range dilemma. Whereas on DVD my CB3 volume would be 55 plus or minus, the HD DVD player volume
would need to be right up at the CB3's max, 70-73, and even then I at times felt volume was a bit lower than what I really wanted. I tried in the CB3 menu upping speaker levels for the HD DVD Six Shooter input, but I found that upping the bass level just didn't translate into real world bass incease, for whatever reason then.

The Integra 9.8, taking HDMI from the HD DVD and Blu Ray players, solved the above dilemma, as I set the Integra's volume about half way and let the CB3 volume control do the rest.

I think Norm has said that his Pioneer 09 analog out works fine with the CB3 and Six Shooter without the volume dilemma I had.

Norm, one thing you haven't tried. HA! The Denon surround processor doing the Blu Ray decoding, whether alone or in conjunction with the Six Shooter. HA! I bet that would sound better than even the Pioneer 09!!!

Similar to the OP's question, I am evaluating the new Axonix Media Deck Pro which outputs 7.1 lossless codecs in LPCM via HDMI output. I have done some research and there are a few LPCM to Analog 7.1 converters available. I have 2 pairs of 6 shooters. Here is a description of the LPCM out

•8 Channels of Crystal Clear HD Audio via HDMI 1.3a compliant Interface
•Dolby® TrueHD&trade and DTS® Master Audio via LCPM Audio
•Full 192KHZ/24 bit Blu-ray® HD Audio with PAPS & AACS compliance

So what would you guys think, I could go spdif Dolby Digital 5.1 to the Blanca or I could go 7.1 Lossless LPCM via HDMI and convert that to analog 7.1 to 6 shooters.

Octava here offers a converter http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI%20switch%204x2_7_1audio.html#HDSA71zoom

I believe Gefen also has one but it includes inline amps

Similar to the OP's question, I am evaluating the new Axonix Media Deck Pro which outputs 7.1 lossless codecs in LPCM via HDMI output. I have done some research and there are a few LPCM to Analog 7.1 converters available. I have 2 pairs of 6 shooters. Here is a description of the LPCM out

•8 Channels of Crystal Clear HD Audio via HDMI 1.3a compliant Interface
•Dolby® TrueHD&trade and DTS® Master Audio via LCPM Audio
•Full 192KHZ/24 bit Blu-ray® HD Audio with PAPS & AACS compliance

So what would you guys think, I could go spdif Dolby Digital 5.1 to the Blanca or I could go 7.1 Lossless LPCM via HDMI and convert that to analog 7.1 to 6 shooters.

Octava here offers a converter http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI%20switch%204x2_7_1audio.html#HDSA71zoom

I believe Gefen also has one but it includes inline amps

We thnk try it and tell us how it sounds.

We know that using an Integra 9.6 to Six Shooter, or Pioneer 09 to Six Shooter, outputting converted lossless to analog, clearly sounds better than DVD Dolby Digital by coaxial or toslink to the CB3's Extreme DACs.
So these components you mention may also do the trick depending on their sound quality. Oe they may not.

Norm, aren't we missing a few here?

DIdn't you originally do both a HD DVD player and a Blu Ray player analog out to the Six Shooter. Then didn't you get a Denon 2808CI receiver? And then on my suggestion you moved "up" to the Integra 9.8? How did they sound in your comparison?
Steve, missed this post till now as I left town before you posted. We had a Denon 3808 prior to the Integra. It was not compared directly as the previous posts items were, however it would fit below the Integra and above the lossy codecs. Nothing astounding there. Norm

Similar to the OP's question, I am evaluating the new Axonix Media Deck Pro which outputs 7.1 lossless codecs in LPCM via HDMI output. I have done some research and there are a few LPCM to Analog 7.1 converters available. I have 2 pairs of 6 shooters. Here is a description of the LPCM out

•8 Channels of Crystal Clear HD Audio via HDMI 1.3a compliant Interface
•Dolby® TrueHD&trade and DTS® Master Audio via LCPM Audio
•Full 192KHZ/24 bit Blu-ray® HD Audio with PAPS & AACS compliance

So what would you guys think, I could go spdif Dolby Digital 5.1 to the Blanca or I could go 7.1 Lossless LPCM via HDMI and convert that to analog 7.1 to 6 shooters.

Octava here offers a converter http://www.octavainc.com/HDMI%20switch%204x2_7_1audio.html#HDSA71zoom

I believe Gefen also has one but it includes inline amps
I think that looks like a helluva value if it sounds good. In the absence of a CB HDMI solution it is worth a try. Norm

We intend to compare the new Theta Compli BD as an analogue player of Tru HD, DTS-MA, SACD, and Redbook with an Elite 09FD, Denon DVD-5910, Oppo BD, and Theta Carmen II early on. Will report. Norm

Here is some further info on the Dacs of the octava

It’s a Burr Brown(now TI) DAC 24/192 DAC of PCM1681

24-Bit Resolution · Power Supply Voltage: +5-V Analog, +3.3-V

· Analog Performance: Digital

– Dynamic Range: 105 dB Typical ·

– SNR: 105 dB Typical · Operation Temperature Range:

– THD+N: 0.002% Typical – –40°C to +85°C for Consumer Grade

· Sampling Frequency: 5 kHz to 200 kHz

Anyone know if the Burr Brown(texas instrument) Dac PCM -1681 is the same as the Integra 9.8 Dacs?