Right now I'm using a VCR hooked to a DTVPal CECB. The performance of the combination is spotty at best. I know two other options are TiVo, or the DTVPal DVR, though Tivo is expensive (with a lifetime sub, likely what I would want) and the DTVPal DVR has many issues like its CECB counterpart. Also I own no HDTV's so currently recording things in HD is of no benefit to me.

Is anyone using anything else, like a DVD recorder w/ built in ATSC tuner? If so how's the tuner performance? I'm on a tight budget, but cant stand missing any more of my programs due to my DTVPal's flakiness, so I'm looking to go this route.

Are DVD-Recorders with tuners still even available and does anyone have any suggestions of which ones are good/best? Are there any other options ofther than what I've mentioned so far? Thanks.

Click my signature for a SDTV HDD DVDR that might do what you want.

J&R has some refurbs (http://www.jr.com/magnavox/pe/MAG_H2160MW9_hy_RB/?JRSource=linkshare&SiteID=X3Th4gZi/iQ-yS8mk/EqDEj6uC9cNYwgpg) many are buying for $159.99 and free shipping.

(See the Special Note on a FW bug in this 2009 "A" version.)

Right now I'm using a VCR hooked to a DTVPal CECB.
As you're probably used to being able to delete any subchannels you want from your channel list/guide, you should probably know that you aren't able to do that with the Magnavox mentioned. The only way to take a subchannel out of a list is by taking all of that channel's subs out (including the main).

Also, there are no HDD/DVD recorders that have any kind of guide at all, like the Pal CECB does.

The Tivo's really the best option, but of course, the most expensive.

The Magnavox is fine, as long as you don't care about that one issue (I do, because there are a lot of crap and useless channels that need to be taken out in this large market - mirrors, religious, ethnic, shopping - and children's, if you don't have any kids around you'd want to leave them in for, etc. I noticed when I had the Maggie H2080 that was one thing I didn't like - being slowed down immensely with my channel surfing - which becomes all the more important when you consider that you don't have a guide to refer to. If you don't have that many of those kinds of channels, or actually want to watch them, then it won't matter as much).

As you're probably used to being able to delete any subchannels you want from your channel list/guide, you should probably know that you aren't able to do that with the Magnavox mentioned. The only way to take a subchannel out of a list is by taking all of that channel's subs out (including the main).
Nwiser,

On the Mag 2160, you can surf thru unwanted channels quickly just by holding the CH+/- button down... I can surf thru 10 digital channels in 15 sec or so... analog channels much faster.

Also, once you get your HDTV, you won't be using the 2160 to surf channels. I never use my DVDRs to do that with my HDTV's... I use the TV's tuner for plain TV watching and surfing.

My DVDRs are for timeshifting, where I set a specific channel to record, then I watch the recorded shows back... pretty simple and no surfing involved. :)

Thanks for the info guys. While having a guide to select programs and such would be nice, I really dont use my DTVPal's guide all that much and my VCR never had one, so I probably wouldnt miss it that much. Also I use my Zenith CECB for regular tv viewing, so I probably wouldnt be bothered by slow response time of channel changing.

I just want something simple to use and very reliable for time shifting my programs...something which my DTVPal CECB doesnt seem to be able to provide (it locks up after a few weeks, sometimes the timer times set get changed, sometimes if i do a channel scan my set timers get deleted, etc.). It's just become too much of a hassle to keep up with and I've already missed several programs. I would bite the bullet and go up to the DTVPal DVR, as the dual tuner thing is a nice feature, but as I've seen in the thread here despite the fixes some people are still having issues. Plus if I ever decided to upgrade to cable or something, I'd basically have a $300 paper weight.

So I will definately be looking into the suggested Magnavox model(s) suggested, and if anyone else has any alternative suggestions and experiences with other brands they'd like to share I welcome them.

Also I use my Zenith CECB for regular tv viewing, so I probably wouldnt be bothered by slow response time of channel changing.
I don't know if the actual response time is 'slow' - it's just that if you have lots of garbage channels you normally take out like I do (I'm just guessing, but I'd have to say it's at least 20 or 25 - I live in the Chicago market - lots of Spanish channels, naturally), I found that it can be a bit of a pain having to go through them all when surfing - if you're using the tuner for your main viewing one.

Sounds like that wouldn't be much of an issue for you anyway, though.

There really aren't any good, reliable HDD alternatives with ATSC tuners built in, other than the TiVo - which is the most reliable of the ones you mentioned, but of course, you pay accordingly for that and the extra features (I've got one, and I only use it OTA). The Magnavox is very reliable for OTA, though, so I wouldn't worry about that.

There are also international Panasonic and Pioneer HDD/DVD models (SD) - but they don't have ATSC tuners, and there's no way for them to change the channels on an external box - they don't have an IR blaster. So in your case, you definitely need that tuner built in (or, you could use a Zinwell CECB, which has event timers - but I don't think they're entirely reliable, either. And like the Pal, the box is known to have some bugs apart from that, also).

The DTV Pal DVR would easily be the best suggestion for you - if it were reliable - but unfortunately, it isn't, and I honestly don't know if it'll ever be. It's had I don't know how many updates now, and it still isn't. I mean, I wouldn't tell anybody not to buy it - but I couldn't ever recommend it in good consciensce, either.

Here's a link to a post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17251356&postcount=6) by bfdtv, it provides a nice breakdown of all the recorders mentioned in this thread.
From reading your post I'd suggest the 2160a for you. Since you'll probably surfing with your Zenith(which does allow sub channels to be removed) and probably only use the Maggy for scheduled events, that feature won't matter much for you.
Besides if you ever get a Pal or Tivo a DVDR like the Maggy makes a nice device to archive or make DVDs of your programming.

nwiser,

I have a Panasonic DMR-EZ17 DVD recorder which is the previous model & it works quite well. The current model is a DMR-EZ28. It does not have a HDD like the Maggy but does use DVD-RAM discs which are reusable for supposedly 100,000 re-write cycles. You can fit up to 8 hrs on a disc but the PQ is really not good at that point. The 2 hr mode is very good and the 4 hr mode is good. You might get by with 6 hrs depending on the size of your TV & how much motion is in the program you are recording. If you're used to swapping VHS tapes then swapping discs should be no problem. Best Buy & Fry's usually have the Panny EZ28, along with some mail order places.

The Maggy does have a HDD which of course can hold a lot of programs. There have been some comments about the Maggy not recording the proper black level. Either they all don't have this problem or most people do not find it objectionable. I did try a Maggy 2080 and it did not record the proper black level using its tuner. It was not severe, but the problem did exist. However losing some detail in the shadow areas of an image is better than not having a recording at all. Maybe the problem has been fixed, I don't know.

A lot of people feel the Panny has the best PQ. A lot of people like the Maggy because it has a HDD and the PQ is still pretty good. With a big screen TV & presuming you are home in order to swap discs then the Panny would be my choice. If going away on vacation & you need a large recording capacity then the Maggy would be my choice.

The 3rd choice is to buy or build a PC for recording. If you have a suitable PC you could add a dual tuner card or USB tuner and turn it into recorder. It does not appear to take a whole lot of processing power to record & play OTA HD programs. You need some power, but you don't need a quad core CPU or a high end graphics card. Check out the HTPC forum if you're interested in going that route.

A used LG LST-3410A HD DVR, or it's predecessor, a Zenith ATSC DVR (I forget the model number offhand) would probably work, too, since you can set the clock on both of them manually, I believe.

But they do have older generation ATSC tuners in them.

A used LG LST-3410A HD DVR, or it's predecessor, a Zenith ATSC DVR (I forget the model number offhand) would probably work, too, since you can set the clock on both of them manually, I believe.

But they do have older generation ATSC tuners in them.

The Zenith's model number is HDR-230. It allows setting the clock manually or using the time information included in each stations' PSIP to set the clock. I used the manual option for over five years, finally switching to the automatic time set in the past year.

The HDR-230 has a fairly small hard drive (80 GB) and is limited to 127 GB max if you swap in a larger hard drive. On the other hand, it's easy to use and reliable.

Cool. Thanks again to all of you for the info.

If you already have a PC that is not a total dinosaur, you have some decent options there. Get a card that has dual ATSC/QAM tuners, like an AverMedia Duet or Hauppage 2250, provided you have PCI-E slots. If not, there are also PCI and USB solutions, and there's the SiliconDust HD Homerun box. The hardware will range from $60 to about $150. If you get an internal card, I really suggest picking up some heatsinks designed for VRAM cooling ($10-14 for a set of 8) and sticking them onto card chips with thermal tape. These cards run hot when recording ATSC and they have zero heat management. It cost me a 2250 card to learn that.

Software-wise, if you plan to go to Win7, you are set - Win 7 media center is a pretty much complete DVR solution. All I had to do is enter my zipcode, and that was that.

Under XP, I'd say SageTV is best. The setup can be a bit more daunting, since SageTV has a lot more configurables - but once you got it set, you are golden.
And if you run Linux, there's MythTV. Just make sure the hardware you get is supported.

Read the TVIX R3310 thread. I've been using one for about 9 months to record OTA HD programming. So far it pretty much does what it is supposed to do. They could make it better with firmware upgrades, but it works and doesn't miss recordings. For the guide you get what is broadcast with the channel, nothing fancy. Its early in ATSC broadcasting so I can only think things will get better. I have some channels with a full 7 day guide and some with nothing at all. One thing with the R3310 is that your recordings are not encrypted, so you can then do as you like with them.

Yep - I'd second the "think about using a PC" option. I've been running a number of PC recording solutions (albeit using DVB-T and DVB-S tuners in the UK - but AIUI similar ATSC solutions are available in the US) and Windows 7 Media Center is pretty good as a time-shifting and archival solution, and is pretty straightforward to use (and comes with a free 14 day EPG) for SD and HD viewing and timeshifting if you have a TV with VGA or HDMI/DVI inputs, and a spare PC which can be used with a PCI or USB card, and you get HD recordings of HD content. (The DVD solutions downconvert to SD)

It isn't perfect but it is a solution worth considering for OTA-only situations. I started with XP Media Center Edition 4 years ago (which was the first to support digital TV cards ISTR), and then switched to Vista (not perfect), and Win 7 (which supports H264 as well as MPEG2 - which is good for HD in Europe) which has been very useable since the first Beta.

If you are more of a tinkerer, then MythTV and Linux is cheaper (as you don't have to buy the OS!) but it does require a lot more set-up IME.

The DVD/HD recorder is probably the cheapest, and there are a few OTA DTV DVRs appearing in the US AIUI (they are widespread in Europe where OTA is more popular than the US), the PC solution is another one. (It costs more to set-up from scratch - though with the appearance of the Atom+nVidia ION platform very small and low-cost solutions are now possible)

The Sonicview HD8000 works well as an OTA recorder. Records in HD if you need that, has epg (station driven), records to an external usb hard drive (so unlimited capacity).
Only real limitations are
a. one tuner
b. no pass through, need to use hdmi or component/composite out.

Can buy for under $250

The Sonicview HD8000 works well as an OTA recorder. Records in HD if you need that, has epg (station driven), records to an external usb hard drive (so unlimited capacity).Thanks, I was not aware of that option. I'll add that to the table as time permits.

Similarly, I'm using a Pinnacle PCTV HD mini Stick for the USB to record OTA programming and the software that comes with it is garbage. The antenna itself does a fairly decent job of pulling in the signal from about 30 miles away but actually using the software is a waste of time.