View Full Version : Toshiba says content is protected but it isn't


SCutchins
09-28-09, 04:58 PM
I have a Toshiba D-R4SU DVD recorder, which I must say that I have hated since the second I bought it, but I digress.

I am recording shows (MotoGP races) from my DirecTV DVR to DVD to keep, they were broadcasted on SpeedTV. About every 10 minutes the burner says that the content is protected and that it is pausing recording. It didn't do this for the first few races of the year but it just did it for the past two races I tried to record.

I am pretty sure that this is NOT protected content, otherwise why would the DVR allow you to record it? I recorded years worth of races directly to DVD, this is the first year with the DVR.

Any thoughts on why its doing this? Any settings I can change or ways around this?

Church AV Guy
09-28-09, 05:32 PM
Many DVD recorders will see ceratin "things" in the video stream and report copy protection is present when it is not there. This is called a false positive. Some recorders are much worse than others. It is also possible that DirecTV is now including content protection on some channels. I haven't seen it yet, but that doesn't mean it isn't there on channels I don't normally watch. If you want to be certain that this isn't going to come up again, then your best approach would be to get a filter and put it in line. There are several, and a search of video filters will bring up several threads on this issue.

CitiBear
09-28-09, 05:38 PM
No easy way around it. This has come up before here on AVS, a few other members have had this problem specifically with SpeedTV and it happens with other channels, both cable and off-air. Sometimes its "legit": the cable company or the channel itself are protecting the broadcasts intentionally for whatever insane reason. In that case, every recorder sold in the last three years will stop recording. But more often than not, this recording lockout occurs due a combination of rotten luck: you own a recent Toshiba or Sony or JVC recorder, and a particular channel or cable company or show or even just a commercial gets transmitted with a glitch in the signal that these "oversensitive" recorder models misinterpret as protected content. The most frequent offender is bits of background music played during commercials or race status reports: inept producers use "protected" music tracks that trigger unplanned lockouts in DVD recorders.

Your DirecTV PVR is unaffected by these "triggers" because it doesn't have a built-in DVD burner, it only has a hard drive. Hard drive PVRs don't have the "protection" sensor required by all DVD recorders, so a PVR will record just about anything (except Pay Per View). Unfortunately the DirecTV PVR, while "blind" to recording lockouts itself, still records them and passes them on to any connected DVD recorder. The only workaround is to connect a protection filter between your DirecTV box and your DVD recorder. Search the threads here for topics like "video filter" or "grex" or "tbc" for suggestions on what to buy. Note none of these filtering options is cheap: expect to spend $100 or more.

chuckvcr
09-28-09, 05:57 PM
I don't think that it's anything wrong that you're doing.

Although I'm not familiar with the Toshiba D-R4SU, I have a Tos XS32 and I've also had problems recording random shows from time to time. Even though I'm not trying to record premium channels or PPV.

I rarely get the "[restricted content, unable to record]" notice (I'm paraphrasing, I can't remember the exact wording) where the machine just shuts off the recording altogether,.. More often I'll get a 'Copy Never' flag attached to the recording (in the Content Menu), after a complete recording.

I think others have said that Toshiba machines have some of the most picky/flaky Content Restriction circuitry as compared to the other brands.

As others have already said, and I'd reiterate, if the signal is slightly degraded, a Toshiba DVR can sometimes misinterpret a Content Protection flag in the stream. I've observed this happen more than once.

SCutchins
09-28-09, 07:35 PM
Hmmm.... $100 for the filter. Whats a new good DVD burner run, maybe $200? I'm thinking just buy a new DVR, maybe a Panasonic to match the other video equipment.

What would you do?

jjeff
09-28-09, 08:27 PM
If by DVR you mean DVDR, Panasonics are probably the least likely to report a false CP warning, but if it's real the Panasonic won't record it either. A filter will get rid of all CP problems, real or imagined.
The cheapest new Panasonic DVDR would be the tunerless EA-18 and it retails for ~$179.
If you already have a DVDR I'd think the filter would give you more options but of course that's up to you.

CitiBear
09-29-09, 02:55 PM
The Toshiba XS series pre-dates our ever-delightful digital TV transition, so it has a much less severe "record inhibit" sensitivity trigger. It also has a hard drive, which will usually record just about anything because it isn't removable (although attempts to burn a DVD might be stifled). This applies to most any earlier DVD/HDD recorder with an analog-only tuner, like the Pioneer and Panasonic contemporaries of the Toshiba XS (or even current 2008 "global-model" import Panasonic and Pioneer DVD/HDD units).

Recorders built 2007 or later incorporate preparations for the digital ATSC/QAM transition. For whatever reason, most of these more-recent models have a hair trigger when it comes to protection sensitivity. Current Sonys and Toshibas are especially sensitive, many complaints here on AVS. The JVCs vary by model and firmware version, Panasonics (other than the horrible EZ-48) rarely make mistakes, and the Magnavox H2160 with HDD is about as good as the Panasonics. It doesn't seem to matter with the Sonys and Toshibas whether they have tuners or not: the "tunerless" versions apparently use the same detection circuit.

The problem is partly in the recorder and partly in the brain-dead ATSC/QAM digital transmission standard. It isn't that Sony and Toshiba intentionally made oversensitive recorders: they followed basic ATSC/QAM specs and I'm sure they aren't happy with all the consumer returns they have to credit stores for. But ATSC/QAM was implemented with almost no thought to advance testing of many little details, one of them being a tendency to trigger false positives for signal protection. And as mentioned earlier, it apparently never occurred to anyone that background music sourced from digitally-protected CDs would trigger unintentional record lockouts when broadcast to video recorders. Its kind of a mess, and its getting worse now that cable companies seem to be making a simultaneous mass migration to QAM transmission.

While its true users of most Panasonics and the Magnavox H2160 encounter fewer record lockouts, owning one of these "more intelligent" recorders is no guarantee you won't be affected by some future DTV signal screwup. Eventually all of us might need some sort of filter device, so if you start having this lockout problem with cable/satellite the best course is probably to just get a filter and forget about it. Those recording off-air from an antenna face a more difficult problem: theres no easy way to wire a filter in such a setup. You could get a second recorder, and have that recorders tuner feed your main recorder with the filter in between. Or you could buy an external ATSC tuner box and use that instead of the recorders own tuner. Inconvenient but serviceable.

Kelson
09-29-09, 04:04 PM
The content flag has nothing to do with ATSC standards. There is no legal obligation for any manufacturer to include any "flag" detection circuitry for OTA broadcasts -- i.e. the NTSC/ATSC tuner. Why they do is a mystery.

It's not accurate to blame the digital transition for the crappy builds of certain manufacturer's equipment.

mdavej
09-29-09, 04:14 PM
FWIW, I never get CP warnings from D* to my panasonic. My polaroid has no CP at all, even on sources which truly are protected. And it costs less than a filter.

SCutchins
09-29-09, 06:10 PM
FWIW, I never get CP warnings from D* to my panasonic. My polaroid has no CP at all, even on sources which truly are protected. And it costs less than a filter.

What model Panasonic and/or Polaroid (they make A/V?!) do you have? For some reason replacing the DVDR appeals to me more than a filter, I'm sure due to not liking the Toshiba(ridiculously slow, for starters.)

Church AV Guy
09-29-09, 07:03 PM
FWIW, I never get CP warnings from D* to my panasonic. My polaroid has no CP at all, even on sources which truly are protected. And it costs less than a filter.
I have never gotten CP warnings with my Panasonic recorders from DirecTV either. I had forgotten about the Polaroid. I got it because it is a cheap component to S-Video converter. It also is a CP filter.
What model Panasonic and/or Polaroid (they make A/V?!) do you have? For some reason replacing the DVDR appeals to me more than a filter, I'm sure due to not liking the Toshiba(ridiculously slow, for starters.)
He is referring to the Polaroid DRM-2001G (http://www.wegotbetterdeals.com/polaroid-drm2001g-80gb-progressive-scan-dvd-recorder-hdd-recorder-with-guardian-p-1346.html) for $80. I would be cautious of this dealer. They came through for me without a problem, and others on this forum have reported the same thing, but they do have plenty of bad feedback. I don' tknow what he has for Panasonic, but I have had six different Panasonic recorders and none of them reported any CP from any DirecTV channel.

plplplpl
09-29-09, 07:51 PM
I have never gotten CP warnings with my Panasonic recorders from DirecTV either. I had forgotten about the Polaroid. I got it because it is a cheap component to S-Video converter. It also is a CP filter.

He is referring to the Polaroid DRM-2001G (http://www.wegotbetterdeals.com/polaroid-drm2001g-80gb-progressive-scan-dvd-recorder-hdd-recorder-with-guardian-p-1346.html) for $80. I would be cautious of this dealer. They came through for me without a problem, and others on this forum have reported the same thing, but they do have plenty of bad feedback.

Also, the "universal remote" they provide with it does NOT work most of the vital features, IIRC. I do recall there was some talk of trying to find a workaround, but I don't remember if something had been come up with.

mdavej
09-30-09, 09:41 AM
Also, the "universal remote" they provide with it does NOT work most of the vital features, IIRC. I do recall there was some talk of trying to find a workaround, but I don't remember if something had been come up with.
Very true. I have a handful of remotes that I (or anyone with a JP1 cable) can program with all the functions and sell pretty cheap. I ran out before, but now I have some more. PM me if anyone is interested. Details are in THIS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16429186#post16429186)thread.

CitiBear
09-30-09, 12:10 PM
The content flag has nothing to do with ATSC standards. There is no legal obligation for any manufacturer to include any "flag" detection circuitry for OTA broadcasts -- i.e. the NTSC/ATSC tuner. Why they do is a mystery. It's not accurate to blame the digital transition for the crappy builds of certain manufacturer's equipment.

You believe whatever you want, in my experience (and that of many members here) 90% of this crap began with the ATSC/QAM runup and has only gotten worse since June. I know it annoys you no end when I report actual experience that runs counter to the "specs" and PR bull spouted by the FCC and various mfrs, but experience trumps alleged "specs". OF COURSE the recorder mfrs employ an overall blanket detection circuit covering every possible input to the machine: are you kidding me? Do you seriously think any of them would go to the trouble, complexity and expense to have a separate unfiltered path just for the tuner? And that "ATSC" tuner is for QAM as well, right? They have no control over what protection the vile cable companies might pollute the QAM signal with. The protection detectors are biased toward digital protection schemes, ATSC/QAM is a half-assed poorly implemented standard that reeks of unexpected signal errors and glitches, half of which trigger a record lockout in consumer experience.

Pre-ATSC models of 2006 and earlier are much less prone to record lockouts, even when connected to cable and satellite boxes or ATSC CECB tuners. That indicates something changed when newer models were modified to handle DTV. As maddening as it is to own a current Sony, Toshiba or JVC, we can't realistically lay all the blame for record lockouts at their feet. The production cycle for recorders has a time lag, when most current models were designed they took our new DTV specs on faith and engineered protection detection based on "perfect" ATSC/QAM. As we now know, ATSC/QAM is about as far from "perfect" as it can get: nice when it works, hell when when it screws up. And it screws up a lot. Funai was able to finesse its DVD/HDD models to be more discriminating over time, and Panasonic lucked out with a couple better-than average models, otherwise every damn recorder made in the last two years is infested with oversensitivity. Every mfr can't be doing it on purpose: why would they want to sell a recorder that's guaranteed to be returned? They just got caught in the DTV snare, like consumers did. If recorders manage to survive another two years in the market, newer models might be re-engineered to better discriminate signal errors from genuine protection, but thats a big maybe. The machines are such poor sellers with so little profit margin that any improvements may come too little too late.

DigaDo
09-30-09, 01:10 PM
. . . ATSC/QAM is a half-assed poorly implemented standard that reeks of unexpected signal errors and glitches, half of which trigger a record lockout in consumer experience.

Pre-ATSC models of 2006 and earlier are much less prone to record lockouts, even when connected to cable and satellite boxes or ATSC CECB tuners. That indicates something changed when newer models were modified to handle DTV. As maddening as it is to own a current Sony, Toshiba or JVC, we can't realistically lay all the blame for record lockouts at their feet. The production cycle for recorders has a time lag, when most current models were designed they took our new DTV specs on faith and engineered protection detection based on "perfect" ATSC/QAM. As we now know, ATSC/QAM is about as far from "perfect" as it can get: nice when it works, hell when when it screws up. And it screws up a lot.

Examples of the technical confusion over ATSC "standards" may be found in the 125 paragraphs and Technical Appendices of the NTIA CECB Final Rules dated March 12, 2007:

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/frnotices/2007/DTVFinalRule_031207.htm