I am really torn trying to make a purchase decision between the Canon HF S11 and the Panasonic HDC-TM300K (I currently own a HV20). I was wondering if anyone has experience with both the HDC-TM300 (300K) and the Canon S10 (S11)?

The prices are similar enough that it is not really a critical factor in the buying decision.

I plan to use this camcorder in a variety of shooting scenarios including people, sports, outdoors, indoors, etc. I am not a Pro, rather a fairly advanced amateur.

Opinions on both/either?

Second question: I've read on a number of photography related forums and blogs that Canon is planning a 10% price increase on their cameras and lenses. Anyone know if they plan to carry this over to their camcorders?

Thanks in advance!

No 350 yet in the US? The Canon is newer, has twice the storage, and according to the reviews good stabilization, very important for handheldshooting with these tiny and lightweight camera's. The Canon HF-S10 can't be found at clearance prices? It doesn't have the new stabilzation though, and 'only' 32 gig storage like the Panasonic. And all current Canons use the MXP profile that use an average bitrate of 21 Mbit/s and 24 Mbit/s max., instead of Panasonics 17 Mbit/s.

I found the HDC-TM350 on the Panasonic Japanese site:

http://panasonic.jp/dvc/tm350/

I guess now my decision is between the S11 and the 350K.

Have you bought the tm350 ? or the TM300 ?

Do u have any review to share with me please.
thank you

I haven't made a purchase decision yet, still gathering information first.

I haven't made a purchase decision yet, still gathering information first.

If u get any new good hints pls share..I am lost...
I was leaning toward the tm350 but when I saw the picture shot at 12lux by the tm350 on this site:

http://camcorder-test.slashcam.com/compare.html

I got more confused...

If this can be of any help for u, and not more confusinf, you could find a low light test :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7Z48HI29lo

or

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.planet.idv.tw%2F2009%2F07%2Fpanasonic-tm350-vs-sony-xr520vxr500-pk.html&sl=ja&tl=en&history_state0=
if u search the same test has been done using the hfs11 the tm350 and the sony.
My opinion is that sony and panasonic videos are superior...but again for canon which setting where they using (30p) ?

Shall we have some "color" discussion based on these three clips. Let me start with my untrained eyes.

Clip 1 is like a stress test. I don't think anyone would like to shoot or watch video under that kind condition. I tells why Panny have betterlow light sensitivity and color scores. But my vote will go for Sony. The video looks a little more comfortable to me than Panny's more light and color. Canon's I probably won't even consider.

Clip 2 and 3 is kind difficult for me to tell. But, I think I will still go for Sony. The reason is the same as above.

It should not matter Canon's video is taken at 30P or not. Until now, I don't see any prove that manual control can make much magic. Taking the 12 lux test for example. Can someone tell me you can push it to single lux and generate better video with manual control as advertised?

Your clip 3, I believe the video actually comes some famous Japen reviewer. He tried to figure out if TM350's improved night shot can beat Sony. (on the other side, CCI still have to release TM300's excellent night shot score recently?).

So you would go with sony....

I am asking you an advise pls.
I want to shoot in very dim light.
I arrive to shoot at 1 digit low lux (between lets say 2 to 9 lux).
My only worries with the sony is that it can not reach to see that low lux....I know that no matter what camer I use at that low lux, I am going to get terrible videos, but I want have the possibility to get the video.
My feeling is that with sony I can not get at all the video at 2-9 lux, while with panny or maybe canon (but maybe panny better), I would get the video, eventhoug it would look terrible.

Am I corect ?

What push me away from the sony is the camcorderinfo review of the sony :

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-Handycam-HDR-XR520V-Camcorder-Review-36461/Low-Light-Performance.htm

what push me away from sony is that Low Light Sensitivity tables, that talks about how many lux the camcorder needs to reach 50 IRE .....
the sony is the worst in sensitivity, but the best in giving crisp videos....but this at 16 lux....if we go to dimmer lux....the story changes...

So, again, I would love to buy the sony, but will it record footages at 6-9 lux ??

thank you

Went to the Sony site on a whim and found a surprise. They do make 32GB and 64GB flash based camcorders; models HDR-CX500V and HDR-CX520V respectively.

So now the decision gets even more difficult.

If you are willing to spend a little more than what the going rate of Tm300 is....maybe you should check out Panasonic GH1. As a previous owner of both TM300 and Sanyo FH1, I can say without doubt that GH1 blows them away.

How is that possible that a camera (Panasonic GH1) is better than a camcorder ?

I do not understand how the GH1 can be better in focusing or low light or IS.
and also, I do not understand if the GH1 has the 4gb limitation.

Thank you, I would appreciate some feedbback from you

How is that possible that a camera (Panasonic GH1) is better than a camcorder ?

I do not understand how the GH1 can be better in focusing or low light or IS.
and also, I do not understand if the GH1 has the 4gb limitation.

Thank you, I would appreciate some feedbback from you

It is better because it uses bigger sensor and better lens. Plus, you are not restricted to using one lens. You can swap lenses depending on what you want to shoot. With the included kit lens it auto focuses during videos but if you want you can have full manual control while shooting videos as well.

The only thing that I miss about Tm300 is the power zoom. Since GH1 is essentially a DSLR, it only has manual zoom.

(AFAIK) There is no 4GB restriction. Checkout Gh1 videos on Vimeo.

If you wanna checkout some raw footage, download them from here (http://www.armjamil.com/gh1_videos/).

Wha tabout the TM300, did u liked its low light ability ?
Have u ever hadany sony or canon for comparison ?

Thank you so much for your feedback

Wha tabout the TM300, did u liked its low light ability ?
Have u ever hadany sony or canon for comparison ?

Thank you so much for your feedback

Low light was good but unfortunately, I did not keep it long enough to extensively test it out. No, I have not used Canon or Sony. The only other HD cam that I've used is Sanyo FH1 and I really liked it.

I heard from Panasonic today, they won't tell me when the 350 will be available (no big surprise though really).

"We do apologize, but there is no word quite yet when or if the HDC-TM350 is going to be presented in the USA. We do apologize for the inconvenience."

Low light was good but unfortunately, I did not keep it long enough to extensively test it out. No, I have not used Canon or Sony. The only other HD cam that I've used is Sanyo FH1 and I really liked it.

How was the sanyo IS, Focus and low light ability ? Doe the camcords hunt when try to focus in low light ?

Also have u found a way to bypass the 4gb limit of recording ?

thank you

Do u think that the canon and panasonic can do better that the sony under these conditions or lower light conditons that we can see in the video below ?

http://www.motionbox.com/videos/7a9ed9b01818e5c4f5

Hey Marcolisi, are you already bought camcorder?

I also must decide between TM350 and HFS11.

TM350
Pros: viewfinder, I also think that touch screen is not bad idea for focusing on right face, bigger ring for focusing - I'm sure it is more precised then smaller on Canon, I think that colours are more natural but Canons are more vibrant so it is a matter of taste, 12 zoom against 10 zoom (I think this is not much of a difference), 5.1 sound
Cons: bitrate 17Mbps, low light is a little worse then Canon, Canon also have 30p, they are report of artefacts when paning faster

Canon:
Pros: bitrate 24Mbps, 30p mode, low light perfomance, bigger senzor - it is only one but is bigger, more vibrant colours but this is a matter of taste
Cons: no viewfinder, stereo sound, 10 zoom against 12 (I think this is not much of a difference), smaller ring for manual focusing

Please tell me what you think about my assesment and which camcorder you think is better and why, but bear in mind I'm a begginer in this area so I'm sure that I make mistakes in this :).

Hey Marcolisi, are you already bought camcorder?

I also must decide between TM350 and HFS11.

TM350
Pros: viewfinder, I also think that touch screen is not bad idea for focusing on right face, bigger ring for focusing - I'm sure it is more precised then smaller on Canon, I think that colours are more natural but Canons are more vibrant so it is a matter of taste, 12 zoom against 10 zoom (I think this is not much of a difference), 5.1 sound
Cons: bitrate 17Mbps, low light is a little worse then Canon, Canon also have 30p, they are report of artefacts when paning faster

Canon:
Pros: bitrate 24Mbps, 30p mode, low light perfomance, bigger senzor - it is only one but is bigger, more vibrant colours but this is a matter of taste
Cons: no viewfinder, stereo sound, 10 zoom against 12 (I think this is not much of a difference), smaller ring for manual focusing

Please tell me what you think about my assesment and which camcorder you think is better and why, but bear in mind I'm a begginer in this area so I'm sure that I make mistakes in this :).

I got the HDC-HS250 about a week ago which lacks some of the features you have on the 350, including the additional noise reduction that the 350 added over the 300. However, underneath it is the same lens, processing, etc.

Color reproduction on the Panny is as you said. It is quite accurate but not as vibrant as the Canon. The Canon is less accurate to my eye but I do like the rich, vibrant colors. 17mbps isn't really much of an issue imho but that is for you to decide. There are varying opinions on this but most will agree the improvements of 24mbps are negligible under most shooting conditions.

Now I can tell you that the Panasonic is able to get an image in nearly all conditions. I can go out in pitch blackness and shoot and I get a visible image. However, I am not thus far impressed with its handling of low light. Indoors with a 300W incandescent overhead, I still get visible noise if I zoom in the slightest. If I zoom in tight, I get a completely unacceptable amount of noise. I am still experimenting to see just how much light I need to get an image indoors that looks similar to the one I get outdoors.

Today I tested the cam outdoors while hiking with my wife and dogs. The image was excellent and iA performed admirably, selecting the best settings on nearly all occasions. A few times I chose regular auto mode and manual mode to tweak the image a bit. Even in extremely bright sunlight at the mountain summit, the camera managed a good image without being way overexposed. There were plenty of high motion shots also with the dogs chasing each other and playing along the way. The bottom line is that the picture on the Panny is excellent outdoors.

As for features, I am lacking many of the 350s as I said. However, I can comment on the common features. iA works pretty well and the white balance issues mentioned in some reviews are rare. If you give the cam a few extra seconds to adjust, it will correct the white balance in almost every case.

The touchscreen is extremely responsive and I have no idea why 1 review said it wasn't. The guy must have been wearing a mitten. It registers properly and quickly every time which is more than I can say for my LG phone. The touchscreen focus is good also. The crosshairs almost always remain red or yellow (rarely green) but the cam focuses fine nonetheless. The focus change is very smooth during playback using this method.

The menus and such are a bit convoluted. For example, to set Cinema Mode. Menu > Cinema Mode > Enter > select ON > Enter ... It's silly the way they make you confirm that you want to change a setting and then confirm again that you want the change you selected. Once would have sufficed. You get used to it though.

Panning .. I avoid fast pans with this or any consumer camcorder so I can't answer that. In general though, I have not had any artifacting issues under proper lighting. I have seen the reports also but I have not experienced them yet so I do believe their occurrence is limited.

The build quality on the Panny is far, far superior to the Canon. I am sure you have seen in many reviews that Canon's just feel cheap these days. Well that is no exaggeration. The buttons and switches are flimsy and the housing feels cheap in general. The Panasonic is solid in every aspect.

I am not 100% sold on this Panny vs the Canon HG21 so I'm not pushing you in any direction. (need to test HG21 still) I am still a fan of Canon's images and I may even take my chances with the shoddy build if the image is that much better under the shooting conditions I need it for. I just thought I could share some info on the Panny anyway to help you make an informed decision.

Hi, first I like to thank you for your really fast and informative answer.


Now I can tell you that the Panasonic is able to get an image in nearly all conditions. I can go out in pitch blackness and shoot and I get a visible image. However, I am not thus far impressed with its handling of low light. Indoors with a 300W incandescent overhead, I still get visible noise if I zoom in the slightest. If I zoom in tight, I get a completely unacceptable amount of noise. I am still experimenting to see just how much light I need to get an image indoors that looks similar to the one I get outdoors.


Some videos I saw on internet is quite OK in low light, but here is Canon better - larger senzor is certainly better for low light


The build quality on the Panny is far, far superior to the Canon. I am sure you have seen in many reviews that Canon's just feel cheap these days. Well that is no exaggeration. The buttons and switches are flimsy and the housing feels cheap in general. The Panasonic is solid in every aspect.


Honestly I didn't know that but it is important to know.

In your answer I also like that touch screen is working well, I saw reviews on internet that said it is not responsive enough.

What can you tell me about fan that is build in camcorder, it is loud or it is not a problem also in a quite environment?

In this 2 weeks of my research on internet I found so many opinions and also bad and good videos for both camcorders that is really hard to decide which one to buy, so again thank you for your answer.

What can you tell me about fan that is build in camcorder, it is loud or it is not a problem also in a quite environment?

In this 2 weeks of my research on internet I found so many opinions and also bad and good videos for both camcorders that is really hard to decide which one to buy, so again thank you for your answer.


Glad to help when and where I can.

Neither fan nor HDD noise is an issue and neither negatively impacts the recordings imho. You may hear it in a very quiet setting but it's quiet enough that you wouldn't even know what it was. If you'd like, I can upload an MP3 of the sound from a few quiet clips.

On a note for the Canon, I have heard the loud zoom in recordings that were done in a quiet outdoor setting. Personally it doesn't bother me but it is certainly audible.

In either case, you might want to check out external mics if you want something more than adequate sound.

btw, here is some info on reliability:


Consumer Reports Most and Least Reliable Camcorders (Years covered: 2003 to 2006)

Reliable:
Panasonic and Sony

Most repair-prone:
Canon, JVC and Samsung (Samsung MiniDV models)

Which (UK) also rated Panasonic and Sony at the top along with Samsung Canon and JVC were at the bottom again. However, Which lists all of these brands with 92% or better reliability so generally speaking, your odds are good even with the less reliable brands that the cam will last awhile.

Orble says:

Manufacturer Overall reliability
Sony 96%
Panasonic 95%
Canon 90%
JVC 90%

Table notes
Reliability of digital camcorders up to four years old.
Average = 93%
Total sample: 1,825 owners

Thanks for all this infos, I really appreciate that. No need to upload mp3 files, I just ask because in one article I saw that this fan is quite loud.

I just forget one thing, I notice that in some videos taken with Panasonic and in some debate on internet I saw (heard) that sometimes Panasonic give it a sky more green colour. Do you experience something like that, it can be corrected or you must live with that?

Thanks for all this infos, I really appreciate that. No need to upload mp3 files, I just ask because in one article I saw that this fan is quite loud.

I just forget one thing, I notice that in some videos taken with Panasonic and in some debate on internet I saw (heard) that sometimes Panasonic give it a sky more green colour. Do you experience something like that, it can be corrected or you must live with that?

In some cases the sky is greenish using iA in particular but you can see it clearly on the LCD. The LCD very accurately displays what you are actually recording. You can then switch modes or adjust settings to correct for it. Similarly sometimes whites will appear bluish but you can adjust for that also as you will see it on the LCD.

The fan is just my opinion. I can hear it like I can hear my Noctua PC fan but not like I can hear those $3 PC fans. As far as HDD-based cams go, I don't find it to be an issue. I can still hear the dog panting, twigs snapping or the leaves rustling - it doesn't overshadow any of those sounds.

On another note, copying files from the HDD to PC is pretty quick - 2.5GB in about 5m.

Here's a few clips I strung together - 3 from the other day during daylight hours while hiking and 1 from today at dusk with a very overcast sky. I got soaked shortly after but luckily I stuffed the cam inside my winter jacket and it remained safe. That reminds me - I need to pick up a waterproof bag next time I'm at the outdoors store. I'm sorry there isn't more blue sky to see but it's the dead of winter here and the sky is more often white or gray right now. :x It was blue briefly in that 1st clip (taken in the parking lot at the trail head so that noise in the background is the highway).

http://vimeo.com/8087436

I got soaked shortly after but luckily I stuffed the cam inside my winter jacket and it remained safe. That reminds me - I need to pick up a waterproof bag next time I'm at the outdoors store.


I know how it is when this happened.


http://vimeo.com/8087436

Thank you but I can't see this video because they are private, probably your settings at vimeo.

I'm glad that you can correct green sky, I know that Canon and Panasonic have many manual controls but I was not sure if it is possible to correct this. This is a main reason that I didn't choose any of Sony camcorders - they don't have important manual controls.

Thank you but I can't see this video because they are private, probably your settings at vimeo.

Sorry about that. Fixed.

Thanks. You have a very lovely dogs. But back to the point, sky is clearly blue so...

May I ask where are you from?

Thanks. You have a very lovely dogs. But back to the point, sky is clearly blue so...

May I ask where are you from?

Thanks. :) I'm from northeastern US.

Thank you again for your help. Have a nice time with the dogs and camcorder.