Greetings everyone! Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been reading as many post as I could regarding setup, but am still stumped as to how to rectify my problem.

I have just recently purchased my new home and am converting the family room to an AV room. I have included a rough drawing (not to scale) of the room. I understand that room treatments will be necessary and will make a big difference, but I'd like a rough idea as to where I should place my speakers. Here is what I have so far:

Revel Performa F52
Revel Performa C52
Revel Performa S30
Revel B15a sub
Harman Kardon AVR 630 (loaner to be replaced with a Pioneer Elite SC-09TX AVR within a few months)

Here is my issue. I am getting the room prewired for electrical, speaker wires, coax, HDMI, etc to a central closet before I finish up the remodeling. I'm still trying to figure out speaker placement that would be optimized for my room. Initially, I thought I was going to be using it equally between music and theater, but after listening to them I am leaning more in favor of a 75/25 split favoring music.

My dilemma is that I can't seem to get the speakers located for decent bass response. My friends and I have been trying for days to move the speakers (two fronts only at this time) and sub around to get the best bass response. I have covered the floor with thin dense carpet, also placed carpeting behind the speakers and on the first reflection points and opposite walls. I know these are not really proper room treatments, but I'm just trying to get a rough estimate of where to place the speakers so that my electrician can run the cables and outlet for the sub.

What I have noticed is that no matter where I place the speaker and sub, the bass is best felt if I stand in the corners of the room. SPL meter shows a +9db increase in the corners as opposed to anywhere near the seating position. Seating posistion is generally about 1/3 of the way from the rear wall no matter which wall or corner the speakers were tried. Bass response is rather anemic at the seating position until I really crank up the volume then you can begin to feel it.

Please keep in mind that I have the receiver set in stereo mode with all channel levels set at 0db. Sound quality of the speakers themselves is very good as is the sound stage. It's just the bass response is poor. I have found that placing the speakers on the north wall with the sub in the center produces the best bass response but only marginally better than stuffing it in the north-east corner so, for now, I've decided to leave it in the corner for aesthetics. I have tried using the included software to set up the eq on the sub, but it did not make much of a difference.

I am not opposed to moving the speakers/display to any wall/corner of the room to achieve the best setup so any suggestion is welcome. Do I just need to get all my real carpeting, room treatments in place before I try this again? I also have a couple of JL Audio 10W7 drivers I can build up and put in if this will help.

Thank you all for your consideration. I know you get inundated with the very same questions almost on a daily basis.

You are doing it backwards.

You are supposed to put the sub where you want to sit, then walk around the room to find the spot where bass response is best; full but not boomy. THEN you place your sub in THAT spot. As long a you are crossing your main speakers over to your sub at 80 hz or lower, placing the main speakers for bass is irrelevant. Place the main speakers for best IMAGING and SOUNDSTAGE only.

Thanks, I'll give that a shot this evening. Does it matter which direction the sub is facing?

Just an fyi, I have tried the sub in locations throughout the room moving it no more than a few inches at a time including in the middle of the room possibly using the sub as a decorative end table. I did notice that with the sub near the sliding glass door, it was like the sub was not even on no matter how loud I turned up the volume. I can see the woofer move, but could not hear or feel anything.

Thanks, I'll give that a shot this evening. Does it matter which direction the sub is facing?

What does the manual for the sub say?

The manual just suggested in the corner for best bass response. It doesn't say much in terms of setup suggestions. The picture had it in the corner at an angle. I currently have it in the corner facing the back wall. It's less boomy that way. Not that it was boomy before, but it sounds a little cleaner facing that direction as opposed to firing at an angle into the room or facing the side.

Greetings everyone! Long time lurker, first time poster. I've been reading as many post as I could regarding setup, but am still stumped as to how to rectify my problem.

I have just recently purchased my new home and am converting the family room to an AV room. I have included a rough drawing (not to scale) of the room. I understand that room treatments will be necessary and will make a big difference, but I'd like a rough idea as to where I should place my speakers. Here is what I have so far:

Revel Performa F52
Revel Performa C52
Revel Performa S30
Revel B15a sub
(loaner to be replaced with a Pioneer Elite SC-09TX AVR within a few months)

Here is my issue. I am getting the room prewired for electrical, speaker wires, coax, HDMI, etc to a central closet before I finish up the remodeling. I'm still trying to figure out speaker placement that would be optimized for my room. Initially, I thought I was going to be using it equally between music and theater, but after listening to them I am leaning more in favor of a 75/25 split favoring music.

My dilemma is that I can't seem to get the speakers located for decent bass response. My friends and I have been trying for days to move the speakers (two fronts only at this time) and sub around to get the best bass response. I have covered the floor with thin dense carpet, also placed carpeting behind the speakers and on the first reflection points and opposite walls. I know these are not really proper room treatments, but I'm just trying to get a rough estimate of where to place the speakers so that my electrician can run the cables and outlet for the sub.

What I have noticed is that no matter where I place the speaker and sub, the bass is best felt if I stand in the corners of the room. SPL meter shows a +9db increase in the corners as opposed to anywhere near the seating position. Seating posistion is generally about 1/3 of the way from the rear wall no matter which wall or corner the speakers were tried. Bass response is rather anemic at the seating position until I really crank up the volume then you can begin to feel it.

Please keep in mind that I have the receiver set in stereo mode with all channel levels set at 0db. Sound quality of the speakers themselves is very good as is the sound stage. It's just the bass response is poor. I have found that placing the speakers on the north wall with the sub in the center produces the best bass response but only marginally better than stuffing it in the north-east corner so, for now, I've decided to leave it in the corner for aesthetics. I have tried using the included software to set up the eq on the sub, but it did not make much of a difference.

I am not opposed to moving the speakers/display to any wall/corner of the room to achieve the best setup so any suggestion is welcome. Do I just need to get all my real carpeting, room treatments in place before I try this again? I also have a couple of JL Audio 10W7 drivers I can build up and put in if this will help.

Thank you all for your consideration. I know you get inundated with the very same questions almost on a daily basis.

First, if you're running in stereo mode, be sure the receiver's Bass Management works in that mode. Some receivers don't, and then you would get no bass to the sub.

Edit:
I just looked up your manual and it says this about Stereo and BM:

Stereo Mode Selector: Press this button
to select a stereo playback mode. When the button
is pressed so that DSP SURR OFF
appears in the Main Information Display˜,
the AVR will operate in a bypass mode with true
fully analog, two-channel left/right stereo mode
with no surround processing or bass management
as opposed to other modes where digital
processing is used. When the button is pressed
so that SURROUND OFF appears in the
Main Information Display˜, you may enjoy
a two-channel presentation of the sound along
with the benefits of bass management. When
the button is pressed so that 5 CH STEREO
or 7 CH STEREO appears, the stereo signal
is routed to all five speakers, if installed. (See
page 25 for more information on stereo playback
modes).
http://www.harmankardon.com/product_support/support_detail.aspx?Region=EUROPE&Country=DK&Language=ENG&cat=&prod=AVR630/230&sjump=&

Be sure you've selected a mode with BM engaged. Then be sure that all the speakers are set to "Small" and an appropriate crossover engaged. Otherwise, you'll get no bass to the subwoofer.

Next calibrate your system. If you have all the channels set to "Zero", you probably don't have them balanced properly. Your receiver has a mode called EZ Set. Use it. It will set the levels for all the speakers and the sub appropriately.

Finally, ensure that your speakers are deployed correctly, using the Dolby speaker layout recommendations:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/home_entertainment/speaker-setup-guide/index.html

Good luck.

Craig

Craig,

I did specifically set it up in Stereo mode to bypass BM per the Revel instructions on the sub setup application. Even when set to 5/6/7 channel stereo/music/theater and BM enabled the bass is still quite anemic. I know there is a bass signal getting sent to the sub as there is a noticeable difference with it on opposed to when I turn the sub off at the power switch. I can also see the cone moving.

I also have the speakers set to small. I'll try all your suggestions this afternoon when I get home from work.

Craig,

I did specifically set it up in Stereo mode to bypass BM per the Revel instructions on the sub setup application. Even when set to 5/6/7 channel stereo/music/theater and BM enabled the bass is still quite anemic. I know there is a bass signal getting sent to the sub as there is a noticeable difference with it on opposed to when I turn the sub off at the power switch. I can also see the cone moving.

I also have the speakers set to small. I'll try all your suggestions this afternoon when I get home from work.

What are your settings on the subwoofer itself?

What are your settings on the subwoofer itself?

Not sure if you mean the parametric eq in the back of the sub or not, but if you are, I have it set to the default configuration currently.

EQ1/2/3 - Freq. ~50/Bandwidth ~0.55/Level - 0
Low Pass Filter - off/48dB
Low Pass Phase - 0
Low Pass Level - 4
High Pass Freq. - 80
High Pass Filter - 24dB

I adjusted it per the instructions in the included software, but that didn't improve the bass response in terms of level or impact. It did clean up the sound quality a little though. I can always increase the level, but I'd rather do it the right way rather than just increasing the gain.

Now that I've downloaded the manual for the receiver, looks like there are quite a few settings I have not checked since I borrowed this receiver from my brother-in-law just to do a rough test placement of the speakers. The room is unfinished and unfurnished. I'll have to find and bring in a small TV to get access to the full setup functions of the receiver.

Initially, all I had did was to set all the levels at 0db, selected Stereo mode to disable processing from the receiver and set the front speakers to small then checked for sound quality and staging from the front speakers. After that, I plugged in the sub and checked for bass response as I moved the sub around the room a few inches at a time. I was just following the instructions per the software provided by Revel with their subs. I could have read it wrong though. I'm completely new to this.

Another question I have is the placement of my center channel. I have read that the best option is having the tweeters in line with the two front speakers. If I do this then my display (Pioneer Elite Kuro 151) will be quite high up. Would it be better to lower the center channel speaker (which will be either wall mounted or on a shelf) and mount the TV above it at a more natural position or do I mount the TV in the optimal position then mount the center speaker above the TV and angle it downward? This is of course less important than my previous issue with the sub.

Duc

I was just reading the instruction manual for your sub. It has both a low pass and a high pass crossover. The low pass you should turn off, but I'm not clear on what the high pass filter is for, (except in the stereo hookup sequence). A high pass filter cuts the bass and allows the "highs to pass" through. You shouldn't need a high pass if you're using the Bass Management in the receiver, because it has already passed the highs through to the speakers. However, the high pass in the sub is not defeatable and it only goes to 80 Hz. The LFE channel can go to 120 Hz, so what happens to the signal between 80 and 120?

Also, that sub has a 3-band parametric EQ for room correction. In order to use it, you need some measuring capability. You could download Room EQ Wizard, which is free, but then you'll need a laptop, a soundcard and a mic to use it.
http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/

Another program you can use is xtz Room Analyzer. For $256, it comes with the mic and soundcard, so all you need is a laptop, (or desktop close enough for the cable lengths):
http://www.xtz.se/produkt.php?allmant=true&produkt=41&eng=true

Frankly, if you don't want to bother with any of that, I think your best bet is to contact your Revel dealer and get them to help you with this setup. No one here can help you with the EQ unless you can at least post some measurements of your room's frequency response.

Craig

Edi: Does the Low Frequency Optimizer, (LFO), software come with the sub? I would think you would also need a mic and a soundcard, or some other way to take the measurements and see the results?

Not sure if you mean the parametric eq in the back of the sub or not, but if you are, I have it set to the default configuration currently.

EQ1/2/3 - Freq. ~50/Bandwidth ~0.55/Level - 0
Low Pass Filter - off/48dB
Low Pass Phase - 0
Low Pass Level - 4
High Pass Freq. - 80
High Pass Filter - 24dB

I adjusted it per the instructions in the included software, but that didn't improve the bass response in terms of level or impact. It did clean up the sound quality a little though. I can always increase the level, but I'd rather do it the right way rather than just increasing the gain.
How did the included software (is that the LFO software?), tell you to set the levels? Is the "Low Pass Level" control the gain control for the sub? Did the software take any measurements? You may need to increase the gain to calibrate the system properly.

Now that I've downloaded the manual for the receiver, looks like there are quite a few settings I have not checked since I borrowed this receiver from my brother-in-law just to do a rough test placement of the speakers. The room is unfinished and unfurnished. I'll have to find and bring in a small TV to get access to the full setup functions of the receiver.

Initially, all I had did was to set all the levels at 0db, selected Stereo mode to disable processing from the receiver and set the front speakers to small then checked for sound quality and staging from the front speakers.
If you've selected the "stereo" mode which bypasses the processing, you've also disabled the Bass Management. Therefore, even with the speakers set to "Small", there won't be any bass re-directed to the sub. You need Bass Management engaged. Why do you want to disable the receiver's processing?

After that, I plugged in the sub and checked for bass response as I moved the sub around the room a few inches at a time. I was just following the instructions per the software provided by Revel with their subs. I could have read it wrong though. I'm completely new to this.
Please list how you have the sub is connected to the receiver and all your Bass Management settings.

Another question I have is the placement of my center channel. I have read that the best option is having the tweeters in line with the two front speakers. If I do this then my display (Pioneer Elite Kuro 151) will be quite high up. Would it be better to lower the center channel speaker (which will be either wall mounted or on a shelf) and mount the TV above it at a more natural position or do I mount the TV in the optimal position then mount the center speaker above the TV and angle it downward? This is of course less important than my previous issue with the sub.

Duc
Personally, I prefer the CC mounted above the display. It seems more natural to hear the voices come from slightly above the display than from below the display, (IMO). Also, it's more likely that you can get all three front speakers at the same height if you place them all above the didplay. If this places them above ear level, point them down at the listening position.

Craig

How did the included software (is that the LFO software?), tell you to set the levels? Is the "Low Pass Level" control the gain control for the sub? Did the software take any measurements? You may need to increase the gain to calibrate the system properly.


The LFO software includes a test tone CD that sends test tones to the mains and the sub. First, I turn off the sub then set the volume of the mains to register 80dB on the SPL meter (bought separately). Then I turn off the mains and, without changing the volume setting, adjust the sub level on the receiver to get the sub at 80dB also.

Once I have the three set to 80dB I switch the mains back on and run through all the test signals recording the values in the LFO software. Once that's done, the software then tells me what to set each dial at to minimize the peaks. It does not compensate for dips though. This was all based on a 80Hz crossover and main speakers set to small.

Yes, the "Low Pass Level" knob is the gain control.


If you've selected the "stereo" mode which bypasses the processing, you've also disabled the Bass Management. Therefore, even with the speakers set to "Small", there won't be any bass re-directed to the sub. You need Bass Management engaged. Why do you want to disable the receiver's processing?


Stereo mode does turn off base management, but it will still send audio below the crossover point to the subs. I have the receiver set to crossover at 80Hz. I will need to experiment with the different crossover points to see which is best though.

I disabled all processing per the instructions on the LFO software.

Please list how you have the sub is connected to the receiver and all your Bass Management settings.


The sub is connected to the receiver via the RCA subwoofer output. I have the base management LFE option set to Left/Right +LFE. This way all audio sent to the mains below the crossover point will be redirected to the sub.

I will post the new EQ dial settings as recommended by the LFO software tomorrow if you want that information. I don't have it handy at the moment.


Personally, I prefer the CC mounted above the display. It seems more natural to hear the voices come from slightly above the display than from below the display, (IMO). Also, it's more likely that you can get all three front speakers at the same height if you place them all above the didplay. If this places them above ear level, point them down at the listening position.

If I put the CC above the display it will be nowhere near being level with the fronts. It'll be about 3' above the front speakers. That being said, I believe that will be the way I'll be going then I'll just have to angle the speaker down to compensate for it.

I tried bluesky636's method of placing the sub at the seating position then checking for the spot with the best bass response and it ended up right back at the NE corner of the room near the fireplace.

I ended up just running the LFO software again to get the settings for the EQ dials then increased the gain to compensate for the lack of base at the seating area.

While this did work and sounds ok so far, I'll have to play around a little more. I don't think this is the ideal way to go though. I had to turn the gain almost all the way up and increase the sub level on the receiver to +10dB. No doubt this will make the bass more boomy at higher levels. I'd like to keep it as clean as possible. It was getting late so I wasn't able to turn up the volume too high. Didn't want to anger my new neighbors before I even moved in. With the gain and sub level up, the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan was shaking the house pretty noticeably at higher levels.

Thank you Craig and bluesky636 for you input thus far. I'm off to bed now. It's way passed my bedtime. I have to wake up in a few hours for work. One more note is that I noticed that Harm Kardon has a firmware update for the receiver which I will try to install tomorrow and see if that helps with sub level at all.

Goodnight everyone.

Duc

As long a you are crossing your main speakers over to your sub at 80 hz or lower, placing the main speakers for bass is irrelevant. Place the main speakers for best IMAGING and SOUNDSTAGE only.

Should I be crossing over at 80Hz with the speakers set to small or large?