www.projectorcentral.com

AE4000 - $1,999 and a nice improvement on the AE3000! O,K. my present projector just took a beating in its resale value today. Buy the best "cheap" projector available if you like to upgrade regularly or be prepared to take a major financial hit each year. Its hard to believe how things keep getting better and cheaper each year. This may be in the wrong section ($3,000 and over), but everyone should be aware of how this will effect sales of the $3,000 projectors and up so they can adjust their buying habits to reflect the radical changes taking place!

yeah. and i almost bought the ae3000 for $2500, 2 months ago. i would kicking myself around the block, now.

when i am ready to upgrade, a few years from now. $2000 will get me 3240p 3d.
yeah baby !

And dogs thought they had it bad with dog year.. Technology years are painful.. just look at the computer your are typing on!

Do we really need a whole thread about this? Its already been discussed in the two AE4000 threads out there.

I didn't know this thread was AE4000 specific. Since I am not interested in the AE4000, I wasn't reading the other threads and would have missed the info. I am considering a projector purchase and I value the insight that others provide.

You think the AE3000 is bad. How about the Optoma H79? Retailed for $10,000 in 2005. It was considered a steal at $4500 two years later. You can buy them on Ebay now for $650!

Projectors are not an investment; just an expensive but fun toy.

thorr -- In general it isn't, but the announcement of the AE4000 at a sub $3K MSRP and, an even lower MAP, just dropped the hammer (or raised the bar, depending on your frame of reference), in terms of the price/performance/options ratio.

It remains to be seen as to how much of their advertising claims they can actually deliver on.

HogPilot -- Of course not, but how many members, in this Forum, read the Panasonic PJ threads. With the current state of the economy, the expectations were that prices were going to hold, or even rise. Then Panasonic comes along and drops the significant price decrease bombshell.

For that kind of money it will be interesting to see what the 4000 can do. As for resale value, out of all of my electronics the PJs are by far the worse! :eek:

For that kind of money it will be interesting to see what the 4000 can do. As for resale value, out of all of my electronics the PJs are by far the worse! :eek:

but they rape any lcd/plasma tv as far as entertainment goes :D

i was highly considering the 3000 a couple months ago too...pretty crazy how prices can go down...

i'm happy with my Pro8100 that i got for under 12 benji's though :D

but they rape any lcd/plasma tv as far as entertainment goes :D

i was highly considering the 3000 a couple months ago too...pretty crazy how prices can go down...

i'm happy with my Pro8100 that i got for under 12 benji's though :D

Good point. :D

At this rate the new AE7000 coming in 2012 might be free! :eek:

I don't think this thread applies to anything but the Panasonic projectors, and possibly a couple other similarly priced LCDs. LCoS and DLP should remain unaffected by the AE4000's low price, just due to the wide gap in the performance and relative strengths/weaknesses between the technologies - which I doubt I need to enumerate here.

I don't think this thread applies to anything but the Panasonic projectors, and possibly a couple other similarly priced LCDs. LCoS and DLP should remain unaffected by the AE4000's low price, just due to the wide gap in the performance and relative strengths/weaknesses between the technologies - which I doubt I need to enumerate here.

I would totaly disagree HOG'I think pannys new price for the ae4000 will make all others fp manufactuer's have to rethink their prices no matter what Tech it is.LCD quality has improve at a faster rate than all the others combine plus with LCD's like the ae4000 offering so many features that the others Tech do not offer yet at this price would make me think twice if I was a CEO of a rival.

I would totaly disagree HOG'I think pannys new price for the ae4000 will make all others fp manufactuer's have to rethink their prices no matter what Tech it is.LCD quality has improve at a faster rate than all the others combine plus with LCD's like the ae4000 offering so many features that the others Tech do not offer yet at this price would make me think twice if I was a CEO of a rival.

I agree. I am rethinking my recent decision to buy a JVC RS20. I might still buy it if I decide to keep it for at least five years. It is becoming very hard to justify spending big bucks on a PJ only to upgrade in two years and lose 60-80 % of what you paid for it when you sell it, if you find a buyer, that is. I personally never buy a used PJ without any warranty by the manufacturer. If I go the used route, I only look at b-stocks from authorized vendor.

I would totaly disagree HOG'I think pannys new price for the ae4000 will make all others fp manufactuer's have to rethink their prices no matter what Tech it is.LCD quality has improve at a faster rate than all the others combine plus with LCD's like the ae4000 offering so many features that the others Tech do not offer yet at this price would make me think twice if I was a CEO of a rival.

I saw this argument last year with the AE3000 and now the AE4000 - in fact certain forum members made it their sole purpose to bash the new JVCs, claiming that the AE3000 actually outperformed machines like the RS20! Having seen the AE3000 in person, it's definitely a great projector for the money, but it simply can't compete with even my 2-generation old FPJ1 in terms of black levels, calibrated light output, and sharpness.

I have no doubt that the AE4000 will help to re-define the <$2K projector market, and I think it's awesome that Panasonic is constantly pushing that barrier. However, there are plenty of people out there willing to pay more for more performance and higher PQ - Panasonic could give the AE4000 away for free and many companies would remain relatively unaffected because they are offering products with performance far in excess of that available on the AE4000. There will always be people who are willing to pay 3X the street price of a AE4000 for the superior performance of an RS35.

I saw this argument last year with the AE3000 and now the AE4000 - in fact certain forum members made it their sole purpose to bash the new JVCs, claiming that the AE3000 actually outperformed machines like the RS20! Having seen the AE3000 in person, it's definitely a great projector for the money, but it simply can't compete with even my 2-generation old FPJ1 in terms of black levels, calibrated light output, and sharpness.

I have no doubt that the AE4000 will help to re-define the <$2K projector market, and I think it's awesome that Panasonic is constantly pushing that barrier. However, there are plenty of people out there willing to pay more for more performance and higher PQ - Panasonic could give the AE4000 away for free and many companies would remain relatively unaffected because they are offering products with performance far in excess of that available on the AE4000. There will always be people who are willing to pay 3X the street price of a AE4000 for the superior performance of an RS35.

The problem with your logic is that the performance gap of the 5k to 10k fp's and now the 2k fp's is closing so fast ' to make the difference not like it used to be.I agree their allways will be few who want the last bit of quality and have the cash to afford that.But it is becoming quite clear that the gap is shrinking fast.And I still think the ae4000 new price will bring down the price of say the JVC'S one day soon.

Well first things first, this isn't news, projectors never had any resale value anyway. Anybody buying a projector expecting to be able to sell it later and not take a bath was just kidding themselves.

I saw this argument last year with the AE3000 and now the AE4000 - in fact certain forum members made it their sole purpose to bash the new JVCs, claiming that the AE3000 actually outperformed machines like the RS20! Having seen the AE3000 in person, it's definitely a great projector for the money, but it simply can't compete with even my 2-generation old FPJ1 in terms of black levels, calibrated light output, and sharpness.

I have no doubt that the AE4000 will help to re-define the <$2K projector market, and I think it's awesome that Panasonic is constantly pushing that barrier. However, there are plenty of people out there willing to pay more for more performance and higher PQ - Panasonic could give the AE4000 away for free and many companies would remain relatively unaffected because they are offering products with performance far in excess of that available on the AE4000. There will always be people who are willing to pay 3X the street price of a AE4000 for the superior performance of an RS35.

I agree. I'd say over 9/10 people looking at something like an RS20, Planar 8150, Sim2, or the like won't be bothered in the slightest by the release of the AE4000, I know I'm not.

The problem with your logic is that the performance gap of the 5k to 10k fp's and now the 2k fp's is closing so fast ' to make the difference not like it used to be.

This argument is made every year, and while the statement is true, history shows us that if anything purchases of mid and high end projectors if anything increase.

I think what really happens is products like the AE4000 get more people into projectors who wouldn't have otherwise considered it. The AE4000 makes projectors more appealing to people in that price range who may have been looking at LCD/Plasmas.

Actually, if anything I think this might help the higher end machines. A JVC or Planar, or especially a Sim2 is a big investment and something that IMO a first time purchaser is going to have a tough time swallowing. But cheap, quality machines like the AE4000 make the first step into projection much easier.

And then after people get to know what they like, I think it becomes easier to spend more for more quality. I know that happened with me. I've basically spent more on each projector I've bought. I never would have considered paying for a Planar for my first machine, but after learning what I like and dislike my tastes have refined and I'm now willing to pay more.

I agree their allways will be few who want the last bit of quality and have the cash to afford that.

But that hasn't changed and never really will.

But it is becoming quite clear that the gap is shrinking fast.And I still think the ae4000 new price will bring down the price of say the JVC'S one day soon.

I doubt it. JVC will release newer better machines that increase the gap again, and, and on and on. IMO the lowering price, increasing performance of the low end does more to make purchasers of low end machines secure in their purchases than it does to make purchasers of high end machines question theirs.

And when the AE5000 comes out next year, we'll have the same thread started again proclaiming the end of the high end. And the high end will continue on as it always has.

The problem with your logic is that the performance gap of the 5k to 10k fp's and now the 2k fp's is closing so fast ' to make the difference not like it used to be.I agree their allways will be few who want the last bit of quality and have the cash to afford that.But it is becoming quite clear that the gap is shrinking fast.And I still think the ae4000 new price will bring down the price of say the JVC'S one day soon.

No matter how "great" the AE4000 gets for the price, it's still an LCD projector and that technology comes with its own limitations that plenty of people don't want to deal with, no matter how good the price. Its native contrast ratio (or the effects of using a dynamic iris) are still nowhere near what LCoS can do natively, and I know there are plenty of people out there who don't care for what Smoothscreen technology does to the picture. Not to mention dust blobs.

Everyone is different and has different tolerances for what they'll accept in shortcomings in projectors vs. what they're paying. The jump from $2K to $6K is still a significant jump up in performance and not the small gap you describe, and believe me there are plenty of people out there (such as myself) willing to pay the premium for higher performance.

**Edit: stranger89 explained my position perfectly.

[QUOTE=stanger89;17331277]I doubt it. JVC will release newer better machines that increase the gap again, and, and on and on. IMO the lowering price, increasing performance of the low end does more to make purchasers of low end machines secure in their purchases than it does to make purchasers of high end machines question theirs.

QUOTE]

I think the point is for many there is such a small difference between high end and ultra high end it becomes paying more simply because you can. There will always be people willing to pay more for exclusivity. But for performance we are all limited by the the ability of our eyes the take in information and send the information to our brains.

It's like tennis shoes will help you run faster but there is still a limit to how fast you can run regardless of the cost of the shoe you are wearing. There will be no more big gaps in performance for tennis shoes, and in my opinion, projectors either.

Good point. :D

At this rate the new AE7000 coming in 2012 might be free! :eek:

Not true as i have it on good authority that the projector will in fact only come free with every pack of Kellogg's cornflakes.

I think the point is for many there is such a small difference between high end and ultra high end it becomes paying more simply because you can. There will always be people willing to pay more for exclusivity. But for performance we are all limited by the the ability of our eyes the take in information and send the information to our brains.

It's like tennis shoes will help you run faster but there is still a limit to how fast you can run regardless of the cost of the shoe you are wearing. There will be no more big gaps in performance for tennis shoes, and in my opinion, projectors either.

If the difference between the AE3000 and RS20 will be comparable to the difference between the AE4000 and RS25, it will be quite a bit more than "small." Plus there's plenty of difference between the JVCs and the Pannys that aren't "spec'd" that make quite a bit of difference in PQ.

"I personally never buy a used PJ without any warranty by the manufacturer. If I go the used route, I only look at b-stocks from authorized vendor."

I'm pretty sure JVC warranties are transferable to the 2nd owner.

Title should be: Law of Nature- Survival of the fittest

I personally have done fairly well with the two projectors I have owned. I sold both of them for about how much I paid for them. They were lower end projectors (Epson 720 and Epson 1080) and I bought them when there was an extremely good deal on them. I only had 400 hours on the 720 and 170 hours on the 1080 when I sold them, which of course helped with the resale value.

I am glad I sold my 1080 recently. I imagine its value will drop rapidly with the ae4000 being released for so cheap. I am sure Epson will follow suit and lower their prices as well. I was going to get the Epson 8100 but then I read about the ae4000. It sounds like the 4000 will trounce the 8100 in just about every category. I am curious how bright the 4000 will be with the new lamp. If it really is 50% brighter than the 3000 then that should fix my main concern about the 3000. If that is the case Epson is going to have lower their prices dramatically to compete.

I was torn between waiting for the ae4000 or grabbing the Viewsonic pro8100 now at the current pricing. I decided to give the pro8100 a shot so I ordered it yesterday. I am a bit concerned about it being bright enough but I was assured that it would be. It isn't the brightest in non best mode but it is one of the brightest in best mode. At it's current pricing I figured it couldn't hurt to try it out. If I am not happy with it I think I will be able to sell it and get most of my money back. A month from now I think there will be a bunch of solid options in the $2000.00 range for me to choose from.

The reason I don't think this is about the Panny is because the original argument holds true for just about any projector at any price point. If you want to upgrade, don't expect to get much out of your old projector (relative to what you paid for it).

I believe that a projector is only as good as it's use to you, and how much you like what it can do as far as performance. I personally can afford any projector I choose...I chose the Panny because it is a very good projector, and I really wanted the lens memory feature. I have come to "really" love this feature so much that it was worth it to pass up on keeping and installing a Sony VW-200 (which has dropped in price tremendously lately) So although the Sony and JVC models may give an incremental improvement in black level, the features of the Panny out weigh that...at least for "my" enjoyment...Although, I am sure that I am not alone in this thinking. It almost "hurt" selling the Sony to another member on here, but in the end, my "happiness" is all that really matters. :)

I've always had a soft spot for the pannies. They may not be the best performers but they do everything quite well and throw a very competative picture straight out of the box whilst being very user friendly.

I bought an ae100 a few years ago as an HTPC testbed intending to sell it on after a few months...kept it for 2 years. Lots of fun and tweakability for not much money.

Lots of my friends have pannies and love them to bits: albeit they are more casually into home cinema than I am.

They are great entry level machines with pretensions for higher end and panasonic deserve to clean up at that price point.

I actually quite like Panasonic kit (have owned many CRTs and plasmas and I even rate their broadcast kit).

If the difference between the AE3000 and RS20 will be comparable to the difference between the AE4000 and RS25, it will be quite a bit more than "small." Plus there's plenty of difference between the JVCs and the Pannys that aren't "spec'd" that make quite a bit of difference in PQ.

The difference between all of these projectors is small.
Otherwise there would be only one projector discussed in these forums. Check out the other threads. How often do you read I'd rather have a RS20?
A person who can afford a $2500 Projector will not go bankrupt if he bought a $5000 projector. It's all disposable income, neither PJ will keep your family warm at night or feed your children. The difference is value, bang for the buck, which is the point of this thread as I see it.

If the majority of people can get a projector that meets their needs for an amazing picture at a lower cost, why would they pay more?

I haven't seen the RS20 in a theater environment but for the sake of arguement I'll agree that in your opinion there is a greater than small difference between the two projectors. Does it motivate me to get off my couch to even have a look?
Nope. I'm too buzy enjoying the amazing picture I'm getting from the AE3000.
Will I upgrade to the AE4000? Probably. I have already met my expectations for picture quality. Now I'm looking for features.

Can I afford a RS20?

Yep!

I've been thinking the differences between projectors is generally pretty small.

But then I saw the new Mitsubishi LCD projector in action compared to a JVC RS2
a couple days ago and was surprised at just how much better the black levels (and image richness, depth) was on the RS2. I was thinking at that point it was a good thing I sprung for an RS20.

The pannies are great.
The JVCs are a bit special though.

I tend to recommend the pannies to people with cream colored walls over the JVC...as its kind of self-defeating.

The difference between all of these projectors is small.
Otherwise there would be only one projector discussed in these forums. Check out the other threads. How often do you read I'd rather have a RS20?
A person who can afford a $2500 Projector will not go bankrupt if he bought a $5000 projector. It's all disposable income, neither PJ will keep your family warm at night or feed your children. The difference is value, bang for the buck, which is the point of this thread as I see it.

If the majority of people can get a projector that meets their needs for an amazing picture at a lower cost, why would they pay more?

I haven't seen the RS20 in a theater environment but for the sake of arguement I'll agree that in your opinion there is a greater than small difference between the two projectors. Does it motivate me to get off my couch to even have a look?
Nope. I'm too buzy enjoying the amazing picture I'm getting from the AE3000.
Will I upgrade to the AE4000? Probably. I have already met my expectations for picture quality. Now I'm looking for features.

Can I afford a RS20?

Yep!

Conversely, how often do you read, "I wished I'd saved some $$ and gone with the Panny instead of my JVC"?

I find it interesting that you haven't seen the RS20 in a theater environment, but you're rather adamant that performance difference between a AE3000 and RS20 is small.

In that vein, I used to be curious if those who owned projectors that cost multiple tens of thousands of dollars weren't just wasting their money. I've been lucky enough to have a Sim2 HT3000E in my basement for the past couple months, and I finally see how "non-spec'ed" things - such as very high-quality optics and high-graded display panels - can make a VERY significant difference in PQ even though the specs may not be very different than those of a projector costing a small fraction. I learned that specs hardly tell the whole story, or even trusted 3rd-party measurements, and that ultimately you get what you pay for. Sure, you have to pay 5x more for a 20% increase in PQ, but for those who have the money, it's well worth it.

The AE4000 is an amazing value, and I'm sure 98% of those who purchase one will be happy. However, there are still plenty out there with more "discerning" or at least "picky" tastes who are willing to pay more for better performance, because they can tell the difference and they enjoy the refinement it offers to their HT experience.

Seems like just about every other thread across the AVSForum... each poster is rooting for (justifying really) whatever they have currently or recently just purchased. However, what really matters is what PJ actually happens to be their next purchase and I'll just bet this new AE4000 pack with features and descent performance selling for <$2000 will very soon begin to affect their perspective of value regardless of what they are saying right now... I suspect they will soon be expecting much more both feature-wise and performance-wise per $ from of their next PJ purchase. And YES, I believe the release of the AE4000 at it ridiculous pricing has just lower the re-sale value of all our PJs, as little as they were already worth... and I think its rather obvious that in the near future this pricing strategy by Panasonic will apply a strong downward pressure on the pricing of all PJs (below $10,000) and maybe even force some players completely out of the game. Time will surely tell, but right now I will predict this AE4000 at its street pricing will definitely be a game changer.

I think the point is for many there is such a small difference between high end and ultra high end it becomes paying more simply because you can. There will always be people willing to pay more for exclusivity. But for performance we are all limited by the the ability of our eyes the take in information and send the information to our brains.

People like to tell themselves there's no difference with better stuff, whether there is or not. Doesn't mean there isn't a difference. There's enough people around here who have the means to buy whatever they want, but more importantly, have the interest and motivation to actually compare different machines, that I firmly believe there are differences even with the ultra high-end machines.

Now I've got a Planar, and I tell myself that the difference between it and a Lumis doesn't justify the cost. But that doesn't mean I don't think the Lumis is better. I'm not arrogant enough to think that.

The difference between all of these projectors is small.
Otherwise there would be only one projector discussed in these forums. Check out the other threads. How often do you read I'd rather have a RS20?
A person who can afford a $2500 Projector will not go bankrupt if he bought a $5000 projector. It's all disposable income, neither PJ will keep your family warm at night or feed your children. The difference is value, bang for the buck, which is the point of this thread as I see it.

But someone looking for a $2500 projector very well may not have the "disposable income" to buy a $5000 machine. I don't really know what the point of the thread is, other than trying to justify not spending more on a projector. The last two generations of Panasonics seem to have really inspired a lot of that. People going around trying to convince the world that their beloved Panasonic is every bit as good as more expensive machines.

It's somewhat bewildering, I don't recall any other machines having the same sort of effect. The JVCs are about equally beloved, but I don't see threads started proclaiming the JVC has killed the highest end (Sim2).

If the majority of people can get a projector that meets their needs for an amazing picture at a lower cost, why would they pay more?

Because for many of us, we're willing to pay more for a better picture. Picture quality is a continuum, not a binary state.

I haven't seen the RS20 in a theater environment but for the sake of arguement I'll agree that in your opinion there is a greater than small difference between the two projectors. Does it motivate me to get off my couch to even have a look?
Nope. I'm too buzy enjoying the amazing picture I'm getting from the AE3000.
Will I upgrade to the AE4000? Probably. I have already met my expectations for picture quality. Now I'm looking for features.

And that's perfectly fine, but that doesn't mean that those more motivated and with more budget shouldn't "get off the couch" and have a look and evaluate the higher end machines for themselves.

Well said Stanger.

The high end will always exist, as long as there are people willing to pay ever higher amounts for the diminishing advantages in performance. This is true in all fields, not just PJs. How can someone drop $100,000 on SPEAKERS, you may ask? Well, for the well heeled person who buys them it's what they wanted and could afford. Same with our PJs, the last few increments of increased performance cost more and more. If that's what you want and can afford, go for it! I'm a "bang for the buck" kind of guy, in all things. A pretty good $20 steak is FAR more enjoyable for me than a $60 (insert fancy name here) steak. Not to say it wouldn't taste better, but I wouldn't want to pay the difference. Someday I'll own the best PJ ever made, but not today....

"I personally never buy a used PJ without any warranty by the manufacturer. If I go the used route, I only look at b-stocks from authorized vendor."

I'm pretty sure JVC warranties are transferable to the 2nd owner.


Thanks, noah. I will call JVC to verify.

Just stick to last years models or even -2years models. It's all relative and utter nonsense in terms of value for money. You'll save a fortune. As long as you don't have to be the coolest kid on the block ;)

Seems like just about every other thread across the AVSForum... each poster is rooting for (justifying really) whatever they have currently or recently just purchased. However, what really matters is what PJ actually happens to be their next purchase and I'll just bet this new AE4000 pack with features and descent performance selling for <$2000 will very soon begin to affect their perspective of value regardless of what they are saying right now... I suspect they will soon be expecting much more both feature-wise and performance-wise per $ from of their next PJ purchase. And YES, I believe the release of the AE4000 at it ridiculous pricing has just lower the re-sale value of all our PJs, as little as they were already worth... and I think its rather obvious that in the near future this pricing strategy by Panasonic will apply a strong downward pressure on the pricing of all PJs (below $10,000) and maybe even force some players completely out of the game. Time will surely tell, but right now I will predict this AE4000 at its street pricing will definitely be a game changer.

I couldn't agree more.

I think projectors are a lot like cars. Sure there are the 14K civics out there that get great gas mileage, have power windows, locks, AC, and seats to sit in. That doesn't mean that BMW or Mercedes will have to drop the prices of their cars because nobody will buy one.

Just like automobiles, you buy it today, and leave the parking lot and take a bath on what you just paid, instantly too. Some cars take a bigger bath faster then others, but in the end they all sell for less then you paid originally. Unless you garage something for 40 years and it's a classic.

Well... you know, if you're really into "bang for the buck" i'm surprised you didn't pick up one of the pioneer JVC clones, the FPJ1.
You can be sure it will have better picture quality than the AE4000, at a comparable price... (not to mention you could've had the performance of this about a year ago, as opposed to having to upgrade from the 3000 to the 4000)

Oh, i'll just say it.
This is a fanboy thread, nothing to see here, move along.

Well... you know, if you're really into "bang for the buck" i'm surprised you didn't pick up one of the pioneer JVC clones, the FPJ1.
You can be sure it will have better picture quality than the AE4000, at a comparable price... (not to mention you could've had the performance of this about a year ago, as opposed to having to upgrade from the 3000 to the 4000)

Oh, i'll just say it.
This is a fanboy thread, nothing to see here, move along.

Because the FPJ1 is "inferior" to alot of us who want frame memory, frame interpolation, and well, a better all around projector....:D

The high end will always exist, as long as there are people willing to pay ever higher amounts for the diminishing advantages in performance. This is true in all fields, not just PJs. How can someone drop $100,000 on SPEAKERS, you may ask? Well, for the well heeled person who buys them it's what they wanted and could afford.

I was going to add something about audio. I agree it's quite similar. I have an AVM20 SSP. Long story short, my next SSP will be an Anthem as well. I know that with what and how I listen, a midrange AVR would probably more than satisfy me in the AQ department, and I could save quite a bit of money too. But I'm still getting an Anthem, for the build quality, the support, the little refinements you just don't find on cheaper equipment.

I find it's the same with projectors. Picture Quality isn't the only reason to buy a higher end projector.

I was going to add something about audio. I agree it's quite similar. I have an AVM20 SSP. Long story short, my next SSP will be an Anthem as well. I know that with what and how I listen, a midrange AVR would probably more than satisfy me in the AQ department, and I could save quite a bit of money too. But I'm still getting an Anthem, for the build quality, the support, the little refinements you just don't find on cheaper equipment.

I find it's the same with projectors. Picture Quality isn't the only reason to buy a higher end projector.


Yeah, sometimes as they say..."a fool and his money are easily parted"...;)

Because the FPJ1 is "inferior" to alot of us who want frame memory, frame interpolation, and well, a better all around projector....:D

If only there were a "delusional" emoticon...

Whatever happened to "to each his own" as you were spouting earlier? You seem to be back on the Panasonic warpath here...

With price of DLP's now starting at below 1k and the price of the new ae4000 at below 2k.It is pretty clear to me FP's are becoming like DVD player's.Once they were all expensive and now you can buy one at walmart for $29.Which is great thing for all of us.In 3 years you will just go to walmart and get your new JVC fp.

With price of DLP's now starting at below 1k and the price of the new ae4000 at below 2k.It is pretty clear to me FP's are becoming like DVD player's.Once they were all expensive and now you can buy one at walmart for $29.Which is great thing for all of us.In 3 years you will just go to walmart and get your new JVC fp.

The flip side to that is many will exit the business if there is no money to be made. Pioneer's flat panel display division is a good example.

do pannys still have flicker issues? I always see comments about peoples Pannys flickering all over the place

do pannys still have flicker issues? I always see comments about peoples Pannys flickering all over the place

I have own 5 panny fp's.None had flicker issues.This was mostly a bulb issue.If one use normal light mode their was no problem.Most who had the flicker issue used econo mode.Most solved this issue by running the bulb on normal mode for a few days.

I'm a self-confessed equipment junkie. If there's one thing I've learned it is to buy the best of the cheap stuff. Losing 80% of $2,000 is much more palatable than losing 80% of $15,000! The "cheap" stuff is better than the expensive stuff from just a few short years ago and in some cases has features the expensive stuff didn't have and still doesn't! The expression - "you get what you pay for" hasn't worked that well for me.

Whatever happened to "to each his own" as you were spouting earlier?

That's what I was wondering.

I'm a self-confessed equipment junkie. If there's one thing I've learned it is to buy the best of the cheap stuff. Losing 80% of $2,000 is much more palatable than losing 80% of $15,000!

I don't think anyone is any different, everyone wants to get the best they can for the least money. Only difference for people is where that line is between too expensive and not high enough quality. Why some people can't understand/accept that I will never understand.

People like to tell themselves there's no difference with better stuff, whether there is or not. Doesn't mean there isn't a difference. There's enough people around here who have the means to buy whatever they want, but more importantly, have the interest and motivation to actually compare different machines, that I firmly believe there are differences even with the ultra high-end machines.

Now I've got a Planar, and I tell myself that the difference between it and a Lumis doesn't justify the cost. But that doesn't mean I don't think the Lumis is better. I'm not arrogant enough to think that.



But someone looking for a $2500 projector very well may not have the "disposable income" to buy a $5000 machine. I don't really know what the point of the thread is, other than trying to justify not spending more on a projector. The last two generations of Panasonics seem to have really inspired a lot of that. People going around trying to convince the world that their beloved Panasonic is every bit as good as more expensive machines.

It's somewhat bewildering, I don't recall any other machines having the same sort of effect. The JVCs are about equally beloved, but I don't see threads started proclaiming the JVC has killed the highest end (Sim2).



Because for many of us, we're willing to pay more for a better picture. Picture quality is a continuum, not a binary state.



And that's perfectly fine, but that doesn't mean that those more motivated and with more budget shouldn't "get off the couch" and have a look and evaluate the higher end machines for themselves.

People who are not getting what they need for picture quality will look for something that will meet their needs. Once those needs are met what is the motivation to continue to look? Picture quality may be a continuuum but at some point the human eye will be unable discern the diifference between one high end product and another. And if a difference can be determined it is not great enough to inspire everyone to flock to one absolute best product. For many, we are already there, hence the prolifery of projectors at varied price points. People will pay no more than is neccesary to meet their needs. That applies to everything, not just projectors.

People who are not getting what they need for picture quality will look for something that will meet their needs. Once those needs are met what is the motivation to continue to look?

Exactly my point, and I am absolutely not trying to tell anyone who's found that with an AE3000, AE4000 or any other projector that they should go out and look for something better.

My point is that AE3000/AE4000 (or any other projector) fanboys should do the same, they should not be trying to convince the world that there's no need to go beyond their chosen projector.

Picture quality may be a continuuum but at some point the human eye will be unable discern the diifference between one high end product and another.

We're certainly not there yet. Quite a long way from it in fact.

And if a difference can be determined it is not great enough to inspire everyone to flock to one absolute best product. For many, we are already there, hence the prolifery of projectors at varied price points. People will pay no more than is neccesary to meet their needs. That applies to everything, not just projectors.

Exactly, unfortunately there are some here who seem to think their definition of "necessary to meet their needs" does, or should apply to everyone, and anyone who want's more is just a fool wasting their money for status.

In addition to everything discussed here, factors such as screen size, viewing distance, and the ability to accurately recreate a 35mm theatrical experience (as much as possible) will tend to drive some to spend more to deliver increased image detail (visible resolution), better black levels, and other improvements available with some of the more expensive projectors.

2 examples:

If you sit at a greater viewing distance then what is required for your eyes to fully resolve a 1080 image, then the side effects of the Panny smoothscreen technology are not going to be a major consideration in your projector purchase decision.

If you don't have dark walls, a dark ceiling, and good light control, the improved native contrast of a JVC (for example) may not be worth the increased cost.

Vern

New A/V equipment to us is like crack is to a junkie....once you try it you keep coming back regardless of the price. I'm at the point where as long as my family is happy with my video i'm good with it. I do have a jones for new equipment here and there ,but I've learned to just sit back an enjoy what I have until someone else takes the lost by selling there barely used equipment. Old is not always bad and new is not always good. Hell....I'll be 50 the 23rd. of this month an I think I'm still bright, got more hours to go, good pretty good rez. ,and most of all....... look good to my wife and kids.

If only there were a "delusional" emoticon...

Whatever happened to "to each his own" as you were spouting earlier? You seem to be back on the Panasonic warpath here...

If there were a "delusional" emoticon"...it would probably look like you...;)
I "am" saying, "to each our own" when I answered the posters question as to why not buy the Pioneer clone. Why would I buy a projector that is inferior in features?...So to each our own...:D Some want "overpriced" machines that lack features, and some of us want the great Panasonic offerings...:)

"People who are not getting what they need for picture quality will look for something that will meet their needs. Once those needs are met what is the motivation to continue to look?"

IMO it hasn't a thing to do with need; who *needs* a pj at all?

For myself and I suspect most, what we want depends a lot on what we can afford, and when the latter increases, the former is soon to follow.

If there were a "delusional" emoticon"...it would probably look like you...;)

The 1st grade was fun for me too, but I moved on.

I "am" saying, "to each our own" when I answered the posters question as to why not buy the Pioneer clone. Why would I buy a projector that is inferior in features?...So to each our own...:D Some want "overpriced" machines that lack features, and some of us want the great Panasonic offerings...:)

The main "feature" I look for in my projector is PQ. In this realm, the RS20 (or now the RS25/35) is undeniably superior to the AE3000 or AE4000. You can take the rest of your features and be happy with them. I'll watch a better picture, and be happy with that. We both win.

"People who are not getting what they need for picture quality will look for something that will meet their needs. Once those needs are met what is the motivation to continue to look?"

IMO it hasn't a thing to do with need; who *needs* a pj at all?

For myself and I suspect most, what we want depends a lot on what we can afford, and when the latter increases, the former is soon to follow.

That's my point. None of it is "Needed". It's all based on desire and value. There are some that will look beyond the $2,000 price point to meet their desire for an amazing picture. Many more will meet their desire for less. The OP spoke of a drop in resale value for higher end projectors now that arguably high quality picture and features can be had for less than $2,000. I have to believe that the majority of PJ purchases are for new projectors. That means that people who buy used projectors are in minority. Of the people who buy used projectors some will opt to buy a new one if there desire for amazing picture can be met for the same price or less. The greater the quality projector available at a lower price point the greater the chance of someone who would have purchased an old one buying a new one instead.

Simple economics.

Reading this threat makes me feel that all pj's are going to be at $2k and under since AE4000 price. So ae4000 is going to be the market indicator for the price, features and quality?
Panasonic blu ray players are among the cheapest in its category too. Is that any indication for other makes and models!! To some for sure.
There are going to be pj's with distinct advantages and unique features and so forth that are going to be targeted for different segments of market.
Having said that it is good that panny has got realistic with its pj's priceing vs what it offers. That is the main drive for price cut as others have been riding higher than ae300 in terms of quality, feature and warranty etc.
Panny is and has been a price/performance leader but as whole it remains a midrange manufacturer.

Reading this threat makes me feel that all pj's are going to be at $2k and under since AE4000 price. So ae4000 is going to be the market indicator for the price, features and quality?
Panasonic blu ray players are among the cheapest in its category too. Is that any indication for other makes and models!! To some for sure.
There are going to be pj's with distinct advantages and unique features and so forth that are going to be targeted for different segments of market.
Having said that it is good that panny has got realistic with its pj's priceing vs what it offers. That is the main drive for price cut as others have been riding higher than ae300 in terms of quality, feature and warranty etc.
Panny is and has been a price/performance leader but as whole it remains a midrange manufacturer.

More home theater projectors are sold on the internet than in big box stores or installations. Name a site that that doesn't list the AE3000 in the three top sellers.
Name a projector that has more features for less than double the price.
Name one review that doesn't state that the AE3000 isn't already a good value. Panasonic is not on the defense with this move, this is an attack to capture even more of the market. This has nothing to do with becoming a high end manufacturer. It's about maintaining the lead in price/performance and creating value for the consumer.

The JVCs are known for their great black levels. If Panasonic closes the gap closes I think JVC will lose a bit of business.

However the big question is how much ground did Panasonic gain on JVC? What the "average joe" thinks is good enough when it comes to black levels is NOT going to line up with the videophile. The gap is closing since all I've read so far is the JVCs haven't made any gains this year when it comes to their bread and butter (On/off contrast).

The OP spoke of a drop in resale value for higher end projectors now that arguably high quality picture and features can be had for less than $2,000. I have to believe that the majority of PJ purchases are for new projectors. That means that people who buy used projectors are in minority. Of the people who buy used projectors some will opt to buy a new one if there desire for amazing picture can be met for the same price or less. The greater the quality projector available at a lower price point the greater the chance of someone who would have purchased an old one buying a new one instead.

Simple economics.

You're missing one, very, very simple fact. There has never, ever (well not since digital projectors) been a good market for used Projectors. This happens every year, heck probably every 6 months. Every year new models come out that make it hard to sell used ones.

There were the same sort of threads last year with the AE3000, and best I can tell it didn't really change anything, with respect to higher end models and resale value (because there is no resale value).

The AE3000/AE4000 are great values. But IMO their real "strength" with their price/performance ratio is getting new people to get into FPs for the first time. They (along with others at the same low price point) have made it much easier to get into FPs, you no longer need to drop $5k like you did a few years ago, or $10k like a few years before that to get into a great HT.

To phrase it another way, I think the AE3000/AE4000 type machines do more to expand the market as a whole than they do to take from the high end market.

Could not agree more! Plus, even if I can't get more than $1K for my used Panasonic AE2000, it still will provide a big chunk of the money required to purchase my new PJ.

If I divide $1400 market value loss over 2 years that's about $60 per month. Given the enjoyment my old projector provided me, this is well worth it IMHO:)

To phrase it another way, I think the AE3000/AE4000 type machines do more to expand the market as a whole than they do to take from the high end market.

Bingo.

good points'But what I can't figure out is how any of these companies make money selling fp's.I can see Epson and panny making money on their buisness fp's lines.But the higher end HT fp's like JVC 'planar' ect.Their is just not enough people who buy them to make much profit if any.Or they just write it off.

good points'But what I can't figure out is how any of these companies make money selling fp's.I can see Epson and panny making money on their buisness fp's lines.But the higher end HT fp's like JVC 'planar' ect.Their is just not enough people who buy them to make much profit if any.Or they just write it off.

Do you have any actual sales numbers to back up your statement or are you just making uninformed generalizations?

The AE3000/AE4000 are great values. But IMO their real "strength" with their price/performance ratio is getting new people to get into FPs for the first time. They (along with others at the same low price point) have made it much easier to get into FPs, you no longer need to drop $5k like you did a few years ago, or $10k like a few years before that to get into a great HT.

To phrase it another way, I think the AE3000/AE4000 type machines do more to expand the market as a whole than they do to take from the high end market.

Ah, so in this home theater habit, the Panny's are like a gateway projector. :D

This thread is kind of funny. I can understand why Video Console fanboys go on and on about their machine - a higher number of user will have a direct correlation to the number of exclusive games they get (really the point being that a game isn't exclusive to the "other" console).

Now when it comes to PJ's - why claim that yours is superior to one that you probably didn't even see. Even if it is better and cheaper what is your point of telling everyone? Is there a bluray out there that only plays on the Panasonic? I must have missed it.

The fact is the more PJ's sold the better for everyone as it develops the technology. The optimal is if every manufacturer is making some money, but has to keep putting money in R&D to stay competitive. To few manufacturers and the quality will not keep going up (and may even go down).

I just got a RS2 B stock and I am ecstatic about it. Do I know that the RS25 / 35 is better and that I can't adjust the colors - yes and I am GLAD that people are buying the RS 25's. That means that in 1-2 years those models hit a price point that I am willing to spend.

People forget that you can be happy in life and happy for others at the same time.......

Do you have any actual sales numbers to back up your statement or are you just making uninformed generalizations?
I would have to think that JVC has sold a ton of pjs just from the AVS forum alone.
I don't have sales figures but one would think that at the rate JVC has been releasing\refining projectors over the last 2 years that they are making money and capturing market share.
AFAIK, companies exist to make money and they don't continue to pour resources into unprofitable market segments.

The difference between all of these projectors is small.
Otherwise there would be only one projector discussed in these forums. Check out the other threads. How often do you read I'd rather have a RS20?
A person who can afford a $2500 Projector will not go bankrupt if he bought a $5000 projector. It's all disposable income, neither PJ will keep your family warm at night or feed your children. The difference is value, bang for the buck, which is the point of this thread as I see it.

If the majority of people can get a projector that meets their needs for an amazing picture at a lower cost, why would they pay more?

I haven't seen the RS20 in a theater environment but for the sake of arguement I'll agree that in your opinion there is a greater than small difference between the two projectors. Does it motivate me to get off my couch to even have a look?
Nope. I'm too buzy enjoying the amazing picture I'm getting from the AE3000.
Will I upgrade to the AE4000? Probably. I have already met my expectations for picture quality. Now I'm looking for features.

Can I afford a RS20?

Yep!

Ignorance is Bliss :)

Ignorance is Bliss :)

I'm going to pretend that wasn't a personal attack and agree with you that it is great to be able afford equipment that meets one's expectations for value and performance.

I'm going to pretend that wasn't a personal attack and agree with you that it is great to be able afford equipment that meets one's expectations for value and performance.

Misinterpretation...

I would have to think that JVC has sold a ton of pjs just from the AVS forum alone.
I don't have sales figures but one would think that at the rate JVC has been releasing\refining projectors over the last 2 years that they are making money and capturing market share.
AFAIK, companies exist to make money and they don't continue to pour resources into unprofitable market segments.

In looking at their financial statements, JVC is not making money and has been going through restructuring due to the downturn, like many companies have been.

Their most recent annual financial statements show that their Home & Mobile products division, (which includes projectors, flat panels, and other AV gear) had Operating Income (earnings before interest and taxes) of $840k USD or 0.072% of the division's $1.16B in Revenue. This means once you take out taxes and interest, this division (and JVC as a whole) is currently running at a loss.

Based on their current sales volume, their manufacturing overhead is too high to be sustainable long-term.

http://www.jk-holdings.com/en/ir/financial/results/index.html

In looking at their financial statements, JVC is not making money and has been going through restructuring due to the downturn, like many companies have been.

Their most recent annual financial statements show that their Home & Mobile products division, (which includes projectors, flat panels, and other AV gear) had Operating Income (earnings before interest and taxes) of $840k USD or 0.072% of the division's $1.16B in Revenue. This means once you take out taxes and interest, this division (and JVC as a whole) is currently running at a loss.

Based on their current sales volume, their manufacturing overhead is too high to be sustainable long-term.

http://www.jk-holdings.com/en/ir/financial/results/index.html

Nice! An actual argument that is based in reason and substantiated. After seeing comments like "Misinterpretation" and "Ignorance is bliss" I was starting to think all the adults had left the thread and were replaced by Fan-boys and Religious Zealots.

nice! An actual argument that is based in reason and substantiated. After seeing comments like "misinterpretation" and "ignorance is bliss" i was starting to think all the adults had left the thread and were replaced by fan-boys and religious zealots.

+1.

Nope, there are adults still here....

Although I don't think I would choose NOT to buy a JVC projector if the price/performance was right for me (which it is not by a mile), it has to be at least a consideration in the buying analysis. I remember taking at good look at Dwin projectors in the late 90's, but chose to buy Sony instead, in part because who could guarantee that a small company like Dwin would survive in the long run? And remember, back then front projectors costs $10k or more.

I agree that the JVC zealots and fan-boys who just love their little units don't want to hear that JVC could pull the plug on this whole line of products tomorrow if they wanted. Imagine the after-market drop in prices if that happened?

In looking at their financial statements, JVC is not making money and has been going through restructuring due to the downturn, like many companies have been.

Their most recent annual financial statements show that their Home & Mobile products division, (which includes projectors, flat panels, and other AV gear) had Operating Income (earnings before interest and taxes) of $840k USD or 0.072% of the division's $1.16B in Revenue. This means once you take out taxes and interest, this division (and JVC as a whole) is currently running at a loss.

Based on their current sales volume, their manufacturing overhead is too high to be sustainable long-term.

http://www.jk-holdings.com/en/ir/financial/results/index.html
So did you do the same comparison for Panasonic, Sony, Epson?
Last I checked most if not all of the major electronics company's are bleeding money.

I was just replying in general to someone's specualtion that "JVC doesn't sell many projectors cause they're just too darn expensive and Panasonic is the greatest and blah, blah, blah".

Hehe, PJs are like SAABs, keeping my Turbo X and Mitsubishi HC5000 for a loooong time :)

So did you do the same comparison for Panasonic, Sony, Epson?

I have no doubt most consumer electronic companies are in a similar financial situation as JVC.

You postulated, "...one would think that at the rate JVC has been releasing\refining projectors over the last 2 years that they are making money and capturing market share."

I thought it was an interesting question as I am too impressed by JVC's ability to continually release new and improved products. So, I looked up the answer and posted my findings.

I sense you might have read contention in my post, but I assure you there is none.

Peace out.

^^^^^^
My apologies. It is refreshing to see someone post facts.
Unlike myself;)
As an aside, there was serious speculation not long ago that JVC was getting out of the projector business all together.
They hadn't released anything in quite some time.
I'm glad they didn't. I own one and it is a fantastic piece of technology.