Quick question: I already own a Lumagen HDP. Is there much benefit to getting an RS25 over an RS15 if I were to use my Lumagen for color correction on the RS15? I know the Lumagen served me well with my CRT for color correction but it did so by monkeying with the HDMI color values before they reached the projector. Does anyone know how the CMS works on the RS25? Does it work in the same way, or does it control the color of the internals of the projector after the HDMI part of the signal so you don't lose some of your color range by boosting R, G, B values etc.? Is the CMS more powerful than the Lumagen for color correction? How so?

Thanks!!
Mike

Quick question: I already own a Lumagen HDP. Is there much benefit to getting an RS25 over an RS15 if I were to use my Lumagen for color correction on the RS15? I know the Lumagen served me well with my CRT for color correction but it did so by monkeying with the HDMI color values before they reached the projector. Does anyone know how the CMS works on the RS25? Does it work in the same way, or does it control the color of the internals of the projector after the HDMI part of the signal so you don't lose some of your color range by boosting R, G, B values etc.? Is the CMS more powerful than the Lumagen for color correction? How so?

Thanks!!
Mike

A couple of things here. First, the HDP is a very nice device but it is getting a little bit long in the tooth. You know all the reasons why that is so, so I won't go into them. Second, I used the HDQ for a time to do gamut correction on an RS1. It does a very nice job but it will never measure perfectly. Plus, the CMS only works well at certain stimulus levels. If you measure the lower stimulus levels, they will hardly be corrected. Granted, it is more difficult to spot oversaturation at those levels, but you know that it is there. If you can live with that, save a few bucks and get the RS15 and also have a little less contrast so maybe your blacks will be a little more elevated. If it were me, I would spring for the RS25. The CMS is killer and you can get all your colors within just a few dE. If there is any sacrifice associated with the use of the CMS in the RSs, it has never been mentioned here. Your calibration will be as good as your skill level and effort that you put into it.

On the other hand, if your main goal is to simply see realistic lawns and vegetation, the RS15 + HDP combo will do just fine.

Kevin

I was in a similar boat- RS15/VP or RS20.

I got the RS20 as it was a price i could not refuse!
However, if the RS15/VP was less or close to the RS25 I might go the 15/VP route. This is given that its a radiance. The XS just came out an is a decent price...

Quick question: I already own a Lumagen HDP. Is there much benefit to getting an RS25 over an RS15 if I were to use my Lumagen for color correction on the RS15? I know the Lumagen served me well with my CRT for color correction but it did so by monkeying with the HDMI color values before they reached the projector. Does anyone know how the CMS works on the RS25? Does it work in the same way, or does it control the color of the internals of the projector after the HDMI part of the signal so you don't lose some of your color range by boosting R, G, B values etc.? Is the CMS more powerful than the Lumagen for color correction? How so?

Thanks!!
Mike


OOPS....if you already have an HDP mine as well get th 15 and spend any additional AV coin on other parts of your system!

Thanks everyone. It sounds like the RS15 is already not bad to begin with so correcting with the Lumagen should just require some minor touchups. Ahhhh decisions decisions... I can't wait to see the new Panasonic, JVC's, and Sony in person so I can finally decide what is best for me.

If I'm not mistaken, JVC's built in CMS allows control over the secondary color points, unlike the Lumagen HDP/HDQ. I have an HDP and can only control the primary colors.

If I'm not mistaken, JVC's built in CMS allows control over the secondary color points, unlike the Lumagen HDP/HDQ. I have an HDP and can only control the primary colors.


Correct. It makes absolutely no sense to 'save' the money on a RS10/RS15 and then buy an external processor (even if it is a Radiance, which it had to be). No matter what the rationalization may be (even if you are thinking about using the external processor for your TV etc. as well). Just my 0.2 cents.

Another consideration (besides CMS) is that the RS25 provides better black level and on/off CR, while the RS15 delivers a little more lumens (IIRC).

Correct. It makes absolutely no sense to 'save' the money on a RS10/RS15 and then buy an external processor (even if it is a Radiance, which it had to be). No matter what the rationalization may be (even if you are thinking about using the external processor for your TV etc. as well). Just my 0.2 cents.

Nope but the OP already has the external processor so the question is if it makes sense to save the money considering that ....

"It makes absolutely no sense to 'save' the money on a RS10/RS15 and then buy an external processor (even if it is a Radiance, which it had to be)."

Certainly not a Radiance, but it's very sensible for the non-perfectionist to spend $500 for a used Lumagen.

Although I like what my Lumagen HDQ does with my RS1 if I were starting out today I would get the JVC models that have the CMS built in. The HDP/HDQ will not pass deep color and only works with RGB if using DVI out. Plus it doesn't pass audio via DVI.

Ron

Another consideration (besides CMS) is that the RS25 provides better black level and on/off CR, while the RS15 delivers a little more lumens (IIRC).

Yes this is certainly another factor. I am trying to find the best bang for the buck without spending unnecessarily. I definitely strive to achieve the best picture I can and spent countless hours tweaking my CRT and enjoyed almost every minute of it. I am planning to make my new theater room totally dark and am considering putting black felt over all the walls and ceiling, but I haven't started that thread yet lol. My point is though that I can benefit from the better black level and can give up some lumens. I am not sure how noticeable the differences will be in the real world though and if they are really worth the increased cost.

If I'm not mistaken, JVC's built in CMS allows control over the secondary color points, unlike the Lumagen HDP/HDQ. I have an HDP and can only control the primary colors.

Good point that raises another question... How do the color controls in the RS15 compare to this? If they are the same, then the Lumagen would serve no purpose.

The HDP/HDQ ..... only works with RGB if using DVI out.

Actually, I think this is partially incorrect. It will work with the other non-RGB color spaces over DVI as long as the equipment you connect it to doesn't care that it came from DVI.

http://www.convergent-av.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&goto=14399&rid=0&S=da78d51d2766ea0f560f925af018b136#msg_14399

Plus it doesn't pass audio via DVI.

This is not an issue at all. Just put the Lumagen on the output of your receiver after the audio has been decoded.

The HDP/HDQ will not pass deep color

Does anything output deep color? As far as I know, Blu-ray discs are not encoded with it, but I could be wrong.

On the other hand, if your main goal is to simply see realistic lawns and vegetation, the RS15 + HDP combo will do just fine.

Kevin


Thanks. I noticed in the JVC thread that you are running this setup. It's great to hear your opinion and look forward to seeing what you think after you finish calibrating your grayscales.

Good point that raises another question... How do the color controls in the RS15 compare to this? If they are the same, then the Lumagen would serve no purpose.

The RS15 has no control over the primary color points. It cannot do what the Lumagen HDP can do. It has no CMS at all.

Good point that raises another question... How do the color controls in the RS15 compare to this? If they are the same, then the Lumagen would serve no purpose.

iirc, you can adjust some things like gamma, but there is no full CMS.

ok thanks :)

The RS15 has no control over the primary color points. It cannot do what the Lumagen HDP can do. It has no CMS at all.

doh! 2 minutes late to the party!! :)

doh! 2 minutes late to the party!! :)

'S OK. If I had a dollar for every time I was late to the party... :)

Actually, I think this is partially incorrect. It will work with the other non-RGB color spaces over DVI as long as the equipment you connect it to doesn't care that it came from DVI.


This is not an issue at all. Just put the Lumagen on the output of your receiver after the audio has been decoded.


Does anything output deep color? As far as I know, Blu-ray discs are not encoded with it, but I could be wrong.

Input mode you can select color space but like the link says most players default to RGB. Even my Pioneer 51FD that has forced output modes defaults to RGB with my HDQ. Output mode on the HDQ seems to be locked on RGB. Even when I select 422 or 444 on the RS1 the colors will be way off because the HDQ outputs RGB all the time.

You can get around the audio issue as you say but you can't use the HDQ to switch video inputs in this case which is bad because you can tweek every input to look just right with the HDQ. You can't do that with most receivers. This is a non issue in my setup because video and audio are separated in my system. I have a Meridian audio processor and I don't use it to process any video. All my video source switching is done with my HDQ.

Many players output upsampled colors to help smooth color banding. Although from what I read it's only slightly better. In most cases excessive banding will be in the source to begin with. Some comercials on TV are really bad. I hardly ever see it on Bluray. My RS1 is HDMI 1.2 compliant so I can't use it anyway but others with RS10's or RS15's could use it however not with the Vision series VP's. That was my point.

Cheers,

Ron

Input mode you can select color space but like the link says most players default to RGB. Even my Pioneer 51FD that has forced output modes defaults to RGB with my HDQ. Output mode on the HDQ seems to be locked on RGB. Even when I select 422 or 444 on the RS1 the colors will be way off because the HDQ outputs RGB all the time.

Strange. I wonder why the Lumagen has it as an option if it doesn't work right (on the output).

You can get around the audio issue as you say but you can't use the HDQ to switch video inputs in this case which is bad because you can tweek every input to look just right with the HDQ. You can't do that with most receivers. This is a non issue in my setup because video and audio are separated in my system. I have a Meridian audio processor and I don't use it to process any video. All my video source switching is done with my HDQ.

All of my HDMI connected equipment seemed to be color calibrated the same (as it should be since it is all digital) so having one HDMI output from the receiver going to the Lumagen worked perfectly for all of my HDMI equipment. My receiver has 4 HDMI inputs. For component, I could hook that up to the Lumagen directly since the audio isn't going over HDMI anyway.



Many players output upsampled colors to help smooth color banding. Although from what I read it's only slightly better. In most cases excessive banding will be in the source to begin with. Some comercials on TV are really bad. I hardly ever see it on Bluray. My RS1 is HDMI 1.2 compliant so I can't use it anyway but others with RS10's or RS15's could use it however not with the Vision series VP's. That was my point.

Cheers,

Ron

Makes sense. Thanks for all of your input.

Mike

Since I am now seriously considering the Panasonic AE4000, how is the CMS in that unit? Would the Lumagen HDP add any value there?

Thanks,
Mike

Since I am now seriously considering the Panasonic AE4000, how is the CMS in that unit? Would the Lumagen HDP add any value there?

Thanks,
Mike
Good question for the Panasonic AE4000 thread. I think it does have more control than the RS15, but I am not sure.

Strange. I wonder why the Lumagen has it as an option if it doesn't work right (on the output).


The output selections on the HDQ only effect the analog output, not the digital.

ahh, that makes sense. Thanks

Another consideration (besides CMS) is that the RS25 provides better black level and on/off CR, while the RS15 delivers a little more lumens (IIRC).

What if the OP added an ND filter to the RS15 since it has more lumens. Would an RS15 + an ND filter equal the contrast of an RS20/25 with the same setup?

What if the OP added an ND filter to the RS15 since it has more lumens. Would an RS15 + an ND filter equal the contrast of an RS20/25 with the same setup?

An ND filter doesn't enhance contrast. THAT would be a need trick!

An ND filter doesn't enhance contrast. THAT would be a need trick!

it will enhance black levels, though. and because of the shift could you bump up the contrast setting? or would that just destroy the peak whites?

If I'm not mistaken, JVC's built in CMS allows control over the secondary color points, unlike the Lumagen HDP/HDQ. I have an HDP and can only control the primary colors.

Correct. The RS15/HDP combo will have better colors than the RS15 alone, but would not overall compare to the RS25 (which has better contrast and a full CMS). That being said, if you already own the HDP the price difference would come into play between the 2.

Thanks Jason :)

No problem.