I have now owned a RS25 for about a week. This replaced a SIM2 Domino 20. Watching Blu Ray now makes me appreciate what I was missing in picture detail due to the lower resolution Domino 20. However I am just not quite happy enough.

Now I am sure that I will get flamed however the image quality of the RS25 while fantastic just lacks the "pop, 3D like image" of what I have previously seen on a D80E. Also I notice on fast pan shots a sort of motion blur although I believe that is not the correct term.

I have been offered a used Planar 8150 as a trade and was wondering what others thought about the pros and cons. Would I become accustomed to the image hold issues (blur on pans) that I noticed or is it better to return to the one chip DLP image that I am familiar with.

The projector is displayed on a 96" diagonal Stewart Firehawk first generation. The room is completely light controlled. Blue Ray movie watching accounts for about 30% of viewing, 10% PS3 gaming, 60% HD TV programming (about 20% of that is sports).

One thing I would suggest is a new screen. The Firehawk is great for low contrast displays but considering the quality of contrast you're talking about with your options plus the fact that your room is light controlled, a different screen would probably provide some nice results regardless of the projector you settle on.

There are plenty of great options out there. I use a G3 StudioTek 130 but I'm sure plenty of people will chime in with other good options as well.

Good luck!!

You may be better suited for the Planar.

Is there anyway to view before the trade?

You may be better suited for the Planar.

Is there anyway to view before the trade?

No there is not. There are no dealers with any on display in my area.

I love my 8150. If you're missing the "DLP-ness" with your RS25, I think you'd be quite happy with the 8150. I'm sure it's absolute black level won't be quite as good, but IMO the 8150 is no slouch.

I can't say anything meaningful about the D80E, but I don't believe it has DynamicBlack, so the 8150 should be better in overal CR/black level becasue of that. Actually if you search, I think Jason has reviewed the D80E and posted measurements.

Not surprising. Generally once one is used to DLP it is hard to switch. I warn people about this all the time.

Jason,

Given his options of the D80E or the 8150, which would you lean toward given your experiences with both? I asked Darin about it and he leaned toward the Planar. Any opinions?

To date Planar IS the best single chip DLP I have seen, I have seen 3 chip SIMs, but I don't consider that a fair comparison. One of the forum members does have D80E and he compared it to W20000 Benq extensively, although he liked Sim much better he did notice a higher black level on Sim.

If that is the case then I expect Planar to provide a better overall contrast performance compared to JVC. I have seen Planar against my RS2 in direct in depth comparison. I found the images remarkably similar, but Planar provided better depth of image (mid scenes) and sharpness.

Planar has almost no rainbow effect and I am sensitive to them. It has excellent motion handling which is a pet peeve of mine and I always test it.

Overall you can't go wrong with that unit, but would I trade RS25? Probably not, I would tweak Gamma, dial in CMS and REALLY work the lens to achieve maximum panel alignment (ie. almost no color fringing on a white test pattern)

If you are still not satisfied with the image then Planar is a no brainer.

I concur. Though I owned a D80E for sometime, the Planar is a better machine (probably going to catch hell for that too). In fact the Planar is pretty tough to beat in DLP considering the price. The Marantz VP11S2 and Sim2 HT3000E are overall better machines, but also WAY more money. My 2 cents.

I have now owned a RS25 for about a week. This replaced a SIM2 Domino 20. Watching Blu Ray now makes me appreciate what I was missing in picture detail due to the lower resolution Domino 20. However I am just not quite happy enough.

Now I am sure that I will get flamed however the image quality of the RS25 while fantastic just lacks the "pop, 3D like image" of what I have previously seen on a D80E. Also I notice on fast pan shots a sort of motion blur although I believe that is not the correct term.

I have been offered a used Planar 8150 as a trade and was wondering what others thought about the pros and cons. Would I become accustomed to the image hold issues (blur on pans) that I noticed or is it better to return to the one chip DLP image that I am familiar with.

The projector is displayed on a 96" diagonal Stewart Firehawk first generation. The room is completely light controlled. Blue Ray movie watching accounts for about 30% of viewing, 10% PS3 gaming, 60% HD TV programming (about 20% of that is sports).

have you tried bumping the gamma up? that should improve the "image depth/pop" a bit.

Much as I like the new RS25, I still like the look a DLP projector throws. And the Planar throws a good picture.

Have you turned on the frame interpolation? I don't have this projector, but my understanding was that JVC recommends this to be off for movies so I am GUESSING that it is not active for certain sources unless you activate it.

That could possibly fix your motion problem - not sure you will like how it fixes it, but just curious if you tested it or not.

Have you turned on the frame interpolation? I don't have this projector, but my understanding was that JVC recommends this to be off for movies so I am GUESSING that it is not active for certain sources unless you activate it.

That could possibly fix your motion problem - not sure you will like how it fixes it, but just curious if you tested it or not.

I have not tried it but will tonight. You are right that JVC does not recommend it for movies.

Try flattening your gamma curve to 2.2 on the RS25 if not already done so. It should give you better pop at mid brightness scenes.

Have you turned on the frame interpolation? I don't have this projector, but my understanding was that JVC recommends this to be off for movies so I am GUESSING that it is not active for certain sources unless you activate it.

That could possibly fix your motion problem - not sure you will like how it fixes it, but just curious if you tested it or not.

The motion issue he is talking about is a known issue with all of the JVC projectors and is discussed in several threads here. It is similar to the slight motion issues that were once seen with 720p based DLP projectors. The frame interpolation has no effect on it.

I would trade the RS25 for the Planar 8150. The MSRP of the Planar is $1000 less than the MSRPof the RS25 but the JVCs are generally available for more of a discount than the Planars. I might ask for how manu hours are on the Planar bulb? A new bulb is $500 MSRP The Planar is a nice single chip DLP with a nice lens. I just sold my Planar 8150instead opting for a Samsung SP-A900b. The Samsung is much more expensive and has an even better lens than the Planar which has a very good lens. i place image sharpness at the top of my priority list and here IMNSHO the Samsung is champ.

I would trade the RS25 for the Planar 8150. The MSRP of the Planar is $1000 less than the MSRPof the RS25 but the JVCs are generally available for more of a discount than the Planars. I might ask for how manu hours are on the Planar bulb? A new bulb is $500 MSRP The Planar is a nice single chip DLP with a nice lens. I just sold my Planar 8150instead opting for a Samsung SP-A900b. The Samsung is much more expensive and has an even better lens than the Planar which has a very good lens. i place image sharpness at the top of my priority list and here IMNSHO the Samsung is champ.

There are only 288 hours on the lamp so almost new. I don't normally suffer from buyers remorse when selecting home theater equipment so this is a tough decision because it means I WAS WRONG :(

Have you turned on the frame interpolation? I don't have this projector, but my understanding was that JVC recommends this to be off for movies so I am GUESSING that it is not active for certain sources unless you activate it.

That could possibly fix your motion problem - not sure you will like how it fixes it, but just curious if you tested it or not.

I tried the frame interpolation. I did not see any difference on the motion issues. For example on a spinning roulette wheel the wheel becomes very blurred with what appears to be artifacts. It is evident that the LCOS panels cannot process the data quickly enough so there is a slight lag.

The motion issue he is talking about is a known issue with all of the JVC projectors and is discussed in several threads here. It is similar to the slight motion issues that were once seen with 720p based DLP projectors. The frame interpolation has no effect on it.

I have the RS2 so I have seen it (wished I wasn't looking for it and maybe I wouldn't have thought of it :) ). I did think that the FI would have some effect on it though so thanks for clarifying that (and confirmed below by the OP).

Thanks

No worries. I had an RS2 before as well and it bugged me from time to time. The effect was very similar with the earlier 720p DLP projectors and I was overjoyed when the 1080p models started coming out and had eliminated the problem. I hope JVC addresses it at some point. Every technology has its hitch, its just finding the one you can live with happily!!

No worries. I had an RS2 before as well and it bugged me from time to time. The effect was very similar with the earlier 720p DLP projectors and I was overjoyed when the 1080p models started coming out and had eliminated the problem. I hope JVC addresses it at some point. Every technology has its hitch, its just finding the one you can live with happily!!

given your comments , I would go with the Planar. You can not beat a single chip DLP for sharpness. I like the JVC units because I believe they give a more film like image and have richer deeper colors and are easier on the eyes and have much deeper blacks

Interestingly projector central compared the 2000 Panasonic AE4000 to the 12,000 dollar Samsung 900A and thought the Panasonic had a much better image hands down

What ever floats your boat

Like Jason I like the Sim2 ht3000E and thought it was the best projector I saw at Cedia in 2007 but Sim2 service and reliability and I have purchased two units from them, has degenerated to the point of absurdity I think Planar is more responsive to customers

the panasonic over the samsung? is this for real? having never seen either, although i can pretty much guess how amazing the samsung is, i can't see the panasonic as being anywhere close to the performance of the samsung. heck, you can buy 6 of the panny's for the price of 1 sammy. i don't know, it sounds rather fishy to me. i did see the panasonic ae3000 side by side to an rs2 and that was nowhere even close to each other.

No worries. I had an RS2 before as well and it bugged me from time to time. The effect was very similar with the earlier 720p DLP projectors and I was overjoyed when the 1080p models started coming out and had eliminated the problem. I hope JVC addresses it at some point. Every technology has its hitch, its just finding the one you can live with happily!!

how about the rs25, has the motion been "fixed" when compared to the rs2? having just seen an rs2 myself in an ideal setup, the colors and depth were excellent but the motion kinda made me a bit sick on batman returns bluray. if it has been eliminated on the rs25 then it would be a contender for myself. the planar (and samsung) are currently at the top of my list.

Everything I've been told is the RS25 is the same in regards to motion. The RS20 was no different than what I had seen on the RS2 as well.

Interestingly projector central compared the 2000 Panasonic AE4000 to the 12,000 dollar Samsung 900A and thought the Panasonic had a much better image hands down

One of us clearly needs to re-read the review. While I was surprised about how close they judged the two machines and that they called the AE4000 better I did not see any comments about "much better image hands down".

In addition they have quite a few notes in there about an image that is better for "most people". I really don't know how to interpret this. Does this mean it oversaturates colors and most people like this? I don't know so really wonder.

Now Project Central did add that they will add the JVC's to this comparison so that is good stuff.

Everything I've been told is the RS25 is the same in regards to motion. The RS20 was no different than what I had seen on the RS2 as well.

Do the Sony's have this problem?

Wow! So if the concensus of this thread is the Planar is better for the OP than the RS25, and the Samsung is better than the Planar, and projector central says the AE4000 is better than the the Samsung (deep breath) the AE4000 MUST be better than all of these projectors. Who would have thought that? :confused:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/1080p_shootout_2009.htm

Wow! So if the concensus of this thread is the Planar is better for the OP than the RS25, and the Samsung is better than the Planar, and projector central says the AE4000 is better than the the Samsung (deep breath) the AE4000 MUST be better than all of these projectors. Who would have thought that? :confused:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/1080p_shootout_2009.htm

now all you have to do is find a review saying the rs25 is better than the 4000, and you 've completed the circle!

how about the rs25, has the motion been "fixed" when compared to the rs2? having just seen an rs2 myself in an ideal setup, the colors and depth were excellent but the motion kinda made me a bit sick on batman returns bluray. if it has been eliminated on the rs25 then it would be a contender for myself. the planar (and samsung) are currently at the top of my list.

did you not read the first post in this thread??? The OP just bought a RS25 and is not happy with the motion handling of it!

Now I am sure that I will get flamed however the image quality of the RS25 while fantastic just lacks the "pop, 3D like image" of what I have previously seen on a D80E. Also I notice on fast pan shots a sort of motion blur although I believe that is not the correct term.


Thank you for this mini review! I was hoping JVC had fixed this issue with the RS25, they obviously have not so I will no longer be considering it. I would wait and see how the new Infocus SP8602 compares to the Planar if you can.

Do the Sony's have this problem?

No

Thanks! The VW-85 just made a big jump in my short list then. I guess I will add the HW-15 or whatever it is called also. Throw ratio may kill it though.

Wow! So if the concensus of this thread is the Planar is better for the OP than the RS25, and the Samsung is better than the Planar, and projector central says the AE4000 is better than the the Samsung (deep breath) the AE4000 MUST be better than all of these projectors. Who would have thought that? :confused:
http://www.projectorcentral.com/1080p_shootout_2009.htm

ProjectorCentral has a known, well, love of LCD. They pretty much rate them top and have for years. However, the vast majority of other accredited reviewers usually disagree.

ProjectorCentral has a known, well, love of LCD. They pretty much rate them top and have for years. However, the vast majority of other accredited reviewers usually disagree.

No. I think it is valid. And to prove it I will trade my ae4000 - straight up - for another members 8150...;)

ProjectorCentral has a known, well, love of LCD. They pretty much rate them top and have for years. However, the vast majority of other accredited reviewers usually disagree.

I was going to make the same comment. PJC really loves Panasonic projectors. But what they really love, above all else, is a cheap projector that throws a good picture. They sometimes seem unable to distinguish between "bang for the buck" and "picture quality".

Of course the part of that "shootout" that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is that it reads like an add and how the AE4000 beats everything. And they leave out the JVCs which likely beat it easily in contrast.

did you not read the first post in this thread??? The OP just bought a RS25 and is not happy with the motion handling of it!

yes, i said "fixed" but what i meant to say was "improved" from rs2 to rs25. seems thats not the case, so unfortunately that would count it out for me. too bad, it looks to be an awesome machine. guess it will come down to the planar, samsung, sp8602 or possibly the vw85 for me.

And they leave out the JVCs which likely beat it easily in contrast.

They state in the beginning that they do not have access to the JVC's yet and will have to update the reviews once they have seen those.

That part is fair - a few other things are not :)

Well they could have thrown in the RS20, they already reviewed it.

ProjectorCentral has a known, well, love of LCD. They pretty much rate them top and have for years. However, the vast majority of other accredited reviewers usually disagree.

I think one of the previous commentators statement that they are bang for the buck guys is right on but I also think that some people are more effected by contrast than sharpness. It doesn't seem that the guys at projector central even recognize that single chip dlp is sharper than LCD

Most of the independent projector reviewers Feierman , Greg Rogers and projector central , have come to the conclusion that the LCOS projectors are the best projectors out there regardless of price. These reviewers love deep blacks and think the the sharpness ,although not the best is good enough.

if you were to make a judgment on the Samsung 900b based on Tom Hufmans review you would be forced to conclude that it is not worth the money. he admits it is very sharp but goes on to say that the colors were not particularly accurate and that the on/off contrast was only 3000/1. I just got the feeling that he was not all that impressed with the overall performance

Peterson and Rogers have reviewed the Planar 8150 and both like the RS20 better. On paper the 8150 looks great but I have never read a review which saw it as an outstanding projector. I like the company and unlike Sim2 they seem to care about the customer

I have been blown away by two projectors in visiting Cedia where I just went wow. one was DLP the Sim2 Ht3000E which is on sale used on Videogon and the other was the RS20. I liked the 3000E better than any 3 chip dlp I have ever seen including the Sim2 C3x 1080P and I like the RS20 better than any 3 chip Dlp if it is put in the right room ,if it is set a at around 18 ftlamberts and if the gamma is around 2.35.

Still if you like the DLP pop , I would buy the used SIM2 3000e The company's customer service in the US is horrible but the projector puts out a beautiful picture.

I know is not ease when you are trying to decide between projector that are very good all of them but if you like the pop of dlp Planar 8150 has it and you won't have to calibrate it because it is really good out of the box.

Federico

...Peterson and Rogers have reviewed the Planar 8150 and both like the RS20 better. On paper the 8150 looks great but I have never read a review which saw it as an outstanding projector
...I have been blown away by two projectors in visiting Cedia where I just went wow. one was DLP the Sim2 Ht3000E which is on sale used on Videogon and the other was the RS20...I believe that the person selling the HT3000E for 2x the price he originally paid on Videogon has a RS20 so that is 1 data point on which might be better. I love capitalism!

The initial reviews of the 8150 measured it at a 2K:1 to 8K:1 DI pj so ~ same CR dynamically as the static CR of a Sharp 20K or Marantz 11S2. There has been reports that firmware revised 8150 now measure ~15K:1 dynamically. Not sure if there has been any improvement in the non DB static CR.

I believe that the person selling the HT3000E for 2x the price he originally paid on Videogon has a RS20 so that is 1 data point on which might be better. I love capitalism!

The initial reviews of the 8150 measured it at a 2K:1 to 8K:1 DI pj so ~ same CR dynamically as the static CR of a Sharp 20K or Marantz 11S2. There has been reports that firmware revised 8150 now measure ~15K:1 dynamically. Not sure if there has been any improvement in the non DB static CR.

with a recessed lens like that will a panamorph uh 480 lens work? I wouldnt think so. Why would they even build a unit with a recessed lens like that?

You guys are mostly all starting tol ose it.

Kutlow. The JVC RS 10, 15, 20 25, and 35 all have a recessed lens. Ideally to optimize anamorphic lens performance, one wants to send the image coming fromthe primary lens through the center of the anamorphic lens with as small an image as possible entering the anamorphic lens. As one moves away from the primary lens front surface, the image size gets bigger, resulting in a REALLY BIG at your screen. The idea is to go through the sweet spot of the anamorphic lens. If you are say one inch away instead of the idealsay 1\2 inch, the image is a little bigger and the results are not maximized, but they still will be very good.

Tom Huffman erased the importer calibration of the Samsung SP-A900B .There is some questions as to whether he followed the correct procedure for calibrating that projector as recomended by Joe kane and DVE, the importer. Other calibrators such as Ken Whitcomb have obtained much smaller de`s (better results than Tom did). Tom was going to follow up by contacting the importer to discuss their recommendations. Most professional calibrators feel a little cheated by the almost automatic calibration of the system used in both the Planar and Samsung. It reduces the calibrator`s fuctions substantially. set the contrast and brightness, measure and read and enter the xy and L of RGB and white and bingo the gray scale is automatically set and the colors should be dead on. Joe Kane is the color mavin and would never endorse any calibration system that couldn`t get it dead on. Any conclusions as to whether the Planar or Samsung is more acccurate out of the box based on Tom`s review are not valid because he erased the out of the box settings. for the Samsung before measuring their results on my screen. Out of the box results also are partially related to the screen they are measured off of. I was with Tom for almost the entire time although Tom did take the projector home to play with it some more. We both concluded it throws a hell of a good picture that was razor sharp,bright, uniform and noise free. Having owned many machines, i can say that based on my observations the Samsung is way sharper than the RS20 and sharper than the Planar. I purchased the Samsung. The blacks while not measuring real good, look very black in mixed scenes. Only in low APL scenes or in black screens would the Samsung suffer compared to the JVC. And in black screeens, even the JVC is no great shakes. The hand puppet test is all one needs to do and going from 50,000 to70,000 won`t improve things there much.

There is an ongoing project being conducted by one prominent AVS member and independent blogger with the assistance of various other members. Shortly we should have fairly accurate MTF data on various proectors. Not on the lenses by themselves which are not easily removable and would require a seperate bench light source but on the entire projector which the projector lamp serving as the light source. Things will depend on the targets chosen and the degree of math one is willing to perform. Very complex fourier analysis and calculations are needed and unlike a full and expensive expert optical lab test, I am sure that some short cuts will be made. Consumer Reports wil luse the MTF number in order to definatively rank the projectors. NOT.

Funny. I chose the Samsung, Mlang, throwing my money away on an inferior projector. BTW. BTW. Have you seen one? Whoops. You are just drawing conclusion based on one review. Why did Stacy, Ken, and I choose it? But its not for most AVS members. Its not available mail order for a big discount like the JVCs are.

The JVCs are fine machines though I personally have not spent anytime with the new models. Too short suplly right now. This will ease shortly.

Kutlow. You desparately want someone to make a decision for you. I understand this because it is obvious that just like me and many others you don`t know and understand everything about projectors. But you are learning just like all of us. But you desperately want to rationalize or have someone else rationalize a choice. Whatever you chose, it will be deemed wrong by some and right on by others. Most have not spent time with all the machines and most are influenced by thier priorities and visual acumen. Most are afraid to say they really don`t know and want to rely on some expert. Me and Jason. We are salesmen first but we both try to be rationale and fair being hobbyist nerds as well but we both are somewhat constrained by not wanting to exactly piss off the companies we sell. You would laugh if you saw either of us attempting to walk a tight rope. Just calling them like I see them. This should not be read as being critical of anyone referred to.

Greg Rodgers is a good reviewer. He is bright, fair, honest, but he has his viewing priorities as well. But it is so safe to say make his yours. One grabs anything to justify and support ones choice. I do it too. But it really is a choice of priorities and wants. And no reviewers or honest salesman`s priorities need or should be yours. Everything out there is seriously flawed. Everything. I say the blacks are good enough for me. Greg says its sharp enough. Eh? For you? Or for me? Its you that counts.

I believe that the person selling the HT3000E for 2x the price he originally paid on Videogon has a RS20 so that is 1 data point on which might be better. I love capitalism!

Just to set the record straight, I sold the HT3000E for 8K and bought it for 5K. The buyer lives in France and would have had to pay about 4X more for the same machine new (European pricing is pretty crazy), so I'd say we both won on that one.

I absolutely loved the sharpness and clarity of the HT3000E's image. Unfortunately it was so sharp that it generated some rather serious moire on my 84" wide DIY AT screen - a shortcoming of the screen, not the projector. I loved the light output, and the image had a lot of pop. My FPJ1 (I have never owned an RS20) had better black levels but could never fill a screen as large as the Sim2 is capable of. But I can definitely see why the Sim2 is so expensive.

If it hadn't been for the moire I would have had a tough choice between the FPJ1 and HT3000E. The Sim2 is definitely an awesome projector, but it just didn't work in my setup. I currently have an RS35 on the way and am looking forward to seeing the picture it throws.

Funny. I chose the Samsung, Mlang, throwing my money away on an inferior projector. BTW. BTW. Have you seen one? Whoops. You are just drawing conclusion based on one review. Why did Stacy, Ken, and I choose it? But its not for most AVS members. Its not available mail order for a big discount like the JVCs are.

I not drawing any conclusions based on one review and I have never seen the current Samsung A900b but I do pay attention to the reviews and there are now two reviews , one by Huffman was less than enthusiastic and even with a Dlp 4 chip the unit only had a contrast ratio of 3000/1 and the second review did not think that the projector was as good as the Panasonic 4000 which cost 1/6 as much

Now may be the first was flawed and the second is highly prejudiced but the comments are similar namely that the A900 blacks are severely compromised and Tom's contrast numbers bear this out.

Now I would be interested in reading Art Feierman's review of the A900 even though Art really likes Lcos and is the least technical of the reviewers he is also the most honest and straight forward and will give the best observational review.

as far as your philosophical ramblings about some projectors have strengths and none is perfect; I say the sky is blue and the grass is green. so what

The real question is what projector gives you the viewer the best most immersive viewing experience and what factors should you look for in judging the quality of a projector. If you talk to professionals who design and measure displays they are going to say a projectors quality is primarily determined by its gray scale. It effects the colors and the intrascene contrast. How many levels of gray a projector can produce is limited by its on/off contrast and unlike flat panels its cross talk scatter which is measured by the ANSI contrast. notice I am emphasizing gray scale not contrast as the final arbiter of quality. You can always adjust the gamma to increase contrast but in doing so you usually compress the gray scale on one end or the other. Obviously you can not neglect everything else but the gray scale is the foundation because it is the transfer function of the display.

Mark Peterson now has a device for measuring both the MTF and the gray scale and should do both. Why this has not been done before is beyond me.
Measuring the gray scale on a projector with a DI implementation is much trickier than one without but both measurements may point out why you like the A900 so much even though its on/off contrast numbers are so poor and you are a former CRT devotee.

I still recommend the 3000E with the T2 lens as the best projector for a dlp pop addicted viewer and I am not a happy customer of Sim2 products but of course you should negotiate. It has the best implementation of pulsed lamp technology and is very very sharp.

...If you talk to professionals who design and measure displays they are going to say a projectors quality is primarily determined by its gray scale. It effects the colors and the intrascene contrast. How many levels of gray a projector can produce is limited by its on/off contrast and unlike flat panels its cross talk scatter which is measured by the ANSI contrast. notice I am emphasizing gray scale not contrast as the final arbiter of quality. ....I am confused, could you elaborate? IIMU that the pjs in question all can be calibrated to a grayscale error dE < 3, d65 20% to 100%. The size of the grayscale which IIRC is 8 bits for consumer sources is easily produced by said pjs. What am I mising?

The initial reviews of the 8150 measured it at a 2K:1 to 8K:1 DI pj so ~ same CR dynamically as the static CR of a Sharp 20K or Marantz 11S2. There has been reports that firmware revised 8150 now measure ~15K:1 dynamically. Not sure if there has been any improvement in the non DB static CR.

Static contrast is about the same at ~2550:1, although it's capable of achieving about 3000:1 peak intra-image contrast with DB enabled and the iris aperture reduced. Dynamic contrast is a little over 15,000:1. I posted the ANSI and on/off numbers here: http://www.videovantage.com/?p=3, but I haven't yet posted the detailed intra-image measurements.

If you talk to professionals who design and measure displays they are going to say a projectors quality is primarily determined by its gray scale. It effects the colors and the intrascene contrast. How many levels of gray a projector can produce is limited by its on/off contrast and unlike flat panels its cross talk scatter which is measured by the ANSI contrast.What do you think can produce more levels of gray, the JVC HD2K from a few years ago with an analog backplane or the newer JVCs with digital backplanes? If you say the new ones, then why do you say that? Do you look at the on/off CR and ANSI CR (which only take the endpoints into account) to try to figure out how many levels there can be in between? If so, why? A projector with 15k:1 on/off CR could have less levels than a projector with 2k:1 on/off CR.

And if you are counting Peter Putman in that list of professionals (since he wrote about how little on/off CR matters since it is grayscale that he claims matters) then I would say he has a lot to learn about video and if he would engage in a discussion out in public people would see that. In a review he did about the JVCs he goes on about how the JVCs do so well in the underground chase scene in The Dark Knight because of their high ANSI CR (which was actually in the same range or lower than the Panasonic AE900's ANSI CR he measured years ago and the AE900 would not be that impressive in that sequence). When I pointed out some issues with his claims he refused to check his assumptions and falls back on how many years of experience he has (a person who refuses to check their assumptions can go their whole life believing complete BS and think it must be true because they've believed it so long) and that his smart friends must be able to explain the problems with his position(s). After he claimed how worthless on/off CR was I never could get him to say what definition of "dynamic range" he was using in some of his statements, like whether he was using it for the number of steps or the ratios between the endpoints for instance.
notice I am emphasizing gray scale not contrast as the final arbiter of quality. You can always adjust the gamma to increase contrast but in doing so you usually compress the gray scale on one end or the other.You can adjust the gamma to increase what contrast? On/off CR and ANSI CR are not affected by gamma hardly at all (unless you screw up the endpoints). If you meant that you can increase contrast in things other than on/off CR or ANSI CR by adjusting gamma then your post made it look like you meant one of those since that is what you had been discussing.
Mark Peterson now has a device for measuring both the MTF and the gray scale and should do both. Why this has not been done before is beyond me.
Measuring the gray scale on a projector with a DI implementation is much trickier than one without but both measurements may point out why you like the A900 so much even though its on/off contrast numbers are so poor and you are a former CRT devotee.Might have something to do with it, but I think MTF probably explains it best. Do you think the single chip Samsung A900B has more levels of gray than the JVCs (new ones or the JVC HD2K with analog backplane)?

When you say that you would like to see grayscale measurements, what kinds of graphs/numbers is it you want to see and from what test patterns?

--Darin

Static contrast is about the same at ~2550:1, although it's capable of achieving about 3000:1 peak intra-image contrast with DB enabled and the iris aperture reduced. Dynamic contrast is a little over 15,000:1. I posted the ANSI and on/off numbers here: http://www.videovantage.com/?p=3, but I haven't yet posted the detailed intra-image measurements.Thanks Mark.

Getting into MTF measurements while not expensive when the object being measured has a built in light source, does require quite a bit of experience and knowledge and time. Kuddos for Mark to attemp it. No reviewer, for example, does MTF testing or for that matter even attempts to read basic test available on DVE which I think can be used to evaluate some aspects of lens quality. Projector manufacturers sometimes say they use high MTF lenses but offer no numbers to support their marketing claims.

Kuddos for Mark to attemp it.

Thanks Mark. FWIW, I'm naturally curious and enjoy digging into areas that others haven't covered before. Being an enthusiast rather than someone working in the industry also allows me to be neutral and tell things like it is without fear of repurcussions or lost business.

As you point out, there is very little information out there on MTF but many claims and lots of speculation. It'll be interesting to see where things fall. I tried to get a hold of a RS35 from JVC for MTF testing and comparison and was told that the units are in short supply so they can't loan me one. Let the conspiracies begin :)

One other thing, Kudos to Mlang, he and I have shared PM's and e-mails and he has offered a lot of the ideas on methodology and equipment to use. He takes a lot of heat on this forum, but there is no one here with this expertise in optics.

Totally agree. The supply of RS35 will soon increase. I hope to fill most orders next week. I am guessing the MTF of an RS35 will be higher than the MTF of an RS20, but I guessing the increase will be small.

Do settings designed to increase on\off CR or increase ft lamberts on increase affect MTF measurements. Is there not a relationship between contrast and MTF?

Its not available mail order for a big discount like the JVCs are.

Sure it is. Cheaper than the JVCs, in fact. You just have to order it from Korea.

Do settings designed to increase on\off CR or increase ft lamberts on increase affect MTF measurements. Is there not a relationship between contrast and MTF?

There was speculation that ANSI contrast was a substitute for MTF, but of the 3 projectors that I looked at earlier, the least sharpest had the highest ANSI contrast. I don't think that there is a strong correlation between the two. I also don't think that on/off contrast with have a strong correlation with MTF. It should be interesting though.

Do settings designed to increase on\off CR or increase ft lamberts on increase affect MTF measurements. Is there not a relationship between contrast and MTF?Closing a lens iris may improve both on/off CR and MTF at full resolution (or close to full resolution), although it wouldn't surprise me if with the JVC RS20 the MTF at close to full resolution goes down as the iris is closed based on what I've seen with white text on black with closing the iris and that ANSI CR goes down. Adding a color filter might increase on/off CR at D65 but hurt MTF at full resolution because of the extra piece of glass (or other material).

If you mean user or service level settings for things like the contrast I doubt they affect MTF at full resolution or close to full resolution much at all. The reason being that something like 10:1 CR for a 1080p full resolution pattern would be very good and increasing on/off CR that is already at 2000:1 plus is reducing a black level that is already minuscule compared to the black level during an MTF test at full resolution or close to full resolution. Or the on/off CR improvement is increasing the white level where the black during the MTF test is pretty much a percentage of whatever the white level is. Hope that makes sense. Put another way, if you reduce the Contrast setting on a projector way down to where the white is say half of what is normal the on/off CR will usually be reduced proportionally, but the MTF shouldn't be affected much because it is dominated by the percentage of the white that washes out the dark parts near it. ANSI CR with projectors is somewhat the same, but not to the same degree.

--Darin

Just to set the record straight, I sold the HT3000E for 8K and bought it for 5K. The buyer lives in France and would have had to pay about 4X more for the same machine new (European pricing is pretty crazy), so I'd say we both won on that one.

I absolutely loved the sharpness and clarity of the HT3000E's image. Unfortunately it was so sharp that it generated some rather serious moire on my 84" wide DIY AT screen - a shortcoming of the screen, not the projector. I loved the light output, and the image had a lot of pop. My FPJ1 (I have never owned an RS20) had better black levels but could never fill a screen as large as the Sim2 is capable of. But I can definitely see why the Sim2 is so expensive.

If it hadn't been for the moire I would have had a tough choice between the FPJ1 and HT3000E. The Sim2 is definitely an awesome projector, but it just didn't work in my setup. I currently have an RS35 on the way and am looking forward to seeing the picture it throws.

I'll add that it was worth more than $8k too. I commented when you bought it at $5k that it was a steal. Kudos to you. :)

I had the 8150 and I thought for the money it was an overall good projector. With that said, the iris on this machine needs some work as well as the lens. The iris would cause the image to slightly flicker and slightly dimmer and brighter in various scenes as it tried to read the image. It was very bothersome to me and I thought I had a defective unit. Planar sent me another unit and it did the same thing. I was told that this was just how the unit operates and that I must just be sensitive to dynamic iris projectors. I am back with a Marantz VP-15S1 with the long throw lens option and when I put up the focus pattern I was floored by the sharpness and once again remembered why I spent the extra money for my two previous Marantz projectors, 11s1 and 11s2. There is simply no comparison with regard to sharpnes and ansi contrast. Now the downside is that the planar in best mode was brighter and better colors out of the box than the 15s1 but even with all that I still like the 15s1 much better. If you are not sensitive to dynamic irises then I would say the planar is a pretty good proj for the money

I'll add that it was worth more than $8k too. I commented when you bought it at $5k that it was a steal. Kudos to you. :)

I agree, although it seems that most people were in the know as to how much I'd paid and weren't happy that I was trying to sell it for more. But the buyer and I met in a happy middle where we both felt we were getting a good deal - he told me later that a new Domino in France would have cost more than what he paid for the HT3000E!

I had the 8150 and I thought for the money it was an overall good projector. With that said, the iris on this machine needs some work as well as the lens. The iris would cause the image to slightly flicker and slightly dimmer and brighter in various scenes as it tried to read the image. It was very bothersome to me and I thought I had a defective unit. Planar sent me another unit and it did the same thing. I was told that this was just how the unit operates and that I must just be sensitive to dynamic iris projectors. I am back with a Marantz VP-15S1 with the long throw lens option and when I put up the focus pattern I was floored by the sharpness and once again remembered why I spent the extra money for my two previous Marantz projectors, 11s1 and 11s2. There is simply no comparison with regard to sharpnes and ansi contrast. Now the downside is that the planar in best mode was brighter and better colors out of the box than the 15s1 but even with all that I still like the 15s1 much better. If you are not sensitive to dynamic irises then I would say the planar is a pretty good proj for the money

Sorry you didn't end up liking the Planar as much Wayne! I owe you one on that!!!

Sounds to me like you are the PERFECT candidate for the new Samsung, as it is RAZOR sharp and even made the 11S2 seem a tad soft. Hate to give you the upgrade bug my friend, but I think you'll appreciate the results!!

I agree, although it seems that most people were in the know as to how much I'd paid and weren't happy that I was trying to sell it for more. But the buyer and I met in a happy middle where we both felt we were getting a good deal - he told me later that a new Domino in France would have cost more than what he paid for the HT3000E!

I wouldn't sweat it...the original seller is the one that dropped his shorts when he solid it to you. You just did a wise investment (is that possible in AV)? Heck you got a better return than about anything in the real market. :)

I agree, although it seems that most people were in the know as to how much I'd paid and weren't happy that I was trying to sell it for more. But the buyer and I met in a happy middle where we both felt we were getting a good deal - he told me later that a new Domino in France would have cost more than what he paid for the HT3000E!

1) I am sure you will loose the $3K on the next projector (or two) so no reason to sweat it

2) Not sure why people would have a gripe about this. Two good deals done

3) Anyone see the Office episode where Dwight buys Andy's Nissan and then turns around and tries to sell it at a higher price in the office.... now that would make me feel a tad guilty :)

I wouldn't sweat it...the original seller is the one that dropped his shorts when he solid it to you. You just did a wise investment (is that possible in AV)? Heck you got a better return than about anything in the real market. :)

1) I am sure you will loose the $3K on the next projector (or two) so no reason to sweat it

2) Not sure why people would have a gripe about this. Two good deals done

3) Anyone see the Office episode where Dwight buys Andy's Nissan and then turns around and tries to sell it at a higher price in the office.... now that would make me feel a tad guilty :)

Yeah, it's definitely the only time I've made money on selling my A/V equipment - first time ever my wife has been thrilled about an HT purchase I've made :) I've lost plenty of money in the long term, so this hobby is still in the red for me and that's just part of the game. But well worth it!

If there was only consistency to it...whole new market for trading! Unfortunately the whole "buy low, sell high" slogan doesn't apply to AV. Darn. :)

But AVS operates on a close to that slogan, buy LOW sell a little higher.

But AVS operates on a close to that slogan, buy LOW sell a little higher.

I think AVS deserves a little markup and then some.

You have to cover a lot of expenses if you want to stay in business. Most consumer couldn`t give two fecals.

I can say we are kicking ass and taking names...thanks to all our loyal members who purchase from us and support the AVSForum in doing so! :)

Thanks to all once again!

I can say we are kicking ass and taking names...thanks to all our loyal members who purchase from us and support the AVSForum in doing so! :)

Thanks to all once again!

Even though I won't be upgrading my RS20 (which I bought from AVS last year, and a RS1 before that), I'm still an enthusiastic supporter of AVS, and I'm sure I will be buying my next pj (next year?) from you. Thanks for great service and value!

And we appreciate it! I'll ear mark an RS65 for you next year. :D (Note: I made that model up...I don't know anything). :)

lol

And we appreciate it! I'll ear mark an RS65 for you next year. :D (Note: I made that model up...I don't know anything). :)

If it has 3 lasers rather than a lamp, I'm in.

I had the 8150 and I thought for the money it was an overall good projector. With that said, the iris on this machine needs some work as well as the lens. The iris would cause the image to slightly flicker and slightly dimmer and brighter in various scenes as it tried to read the image. It was very bothersome to me and I thought I had a defective unit. Planar sent me another unit and it did the same thing. I was told that this was just how the unit operates and that I must just be sensitive to dynamic iris projectors. I am back with a Marantz VP-15S1 with the long throw lens option and when I put up the focus pattern I was floored by the sharpness and once again remembered why I spent the extra money for my two previous Marantz projectors, 11s1 and 11s2. There is simply no comparison with regard to sharpnes and ansi contrast. Now the downside is that the planar in best mode was brighter and better colors out of the box than the 15s1 but even with all that I still like the 15s1 much better. If you are not sensitive to dynamic irises then I would say the planar is a pretty good proj for the money


Thanks for the update. I have been extremely happy with my Marantz 15S1 and am sadden they have apparently pulled out of the DLP market. I have been looking for another DLP to upgrade to, just because things usually improve and thought Planar may be that one. Your post reinforces that Marantz certainly knew what they were doing when the made their DLPs as the 15S1 (and 11S2 according to Jason Turk) still are up there.

Guess I keep the Marantz a while longer which is fine by me :)

They pulled out 2 years ago.Because of the high MSRP product still remains for sale.The 11s2 has better optics than the Planar 8150 and really remains quite competitive except for the higher price.

could anyone with experience confirm that the planar 8150 is sharper than the infocus x10, in81/82/83 series? i keep seeing reviews of these projectors and can't help but think they seem to be much sharper than the planar (only looking at reviews.... i've never seen any of these infocus' in person). thanks for the help.