Just saw a thread (now locked) where someone inquired about PAL in HD and they were incorrectly advised that there is no such thing as PAL HD. Since the thread is locked (don't know why as now that incorrect info is locked with it), I'm posting excerpts from the below link ...

http://hometheater.about.com/od/televisionbasics/qt/ntscpalframes.htm



PAL is the dominant format in the World for analog television broadcasting and video display and is based on a 625 line or pixel row, 50 field/25 frames a second, 50HZ system. The signal is interlaced, like NTSC into two fields, composed of 312 lines or pixel rows each. Since there are fewer frames (25) displayed per second, sometimes you can notice a slight flicker in the image, much like the flicker seen on projected film. However, PAL offers a higher resolution image and better color stability than NTSC. Countries on the PAL system include the U.K., Germany, Spain, Portugal, Italy, China, India, most of Africa, and the Middle East.

in PAL-based countries, there are 25 separate frames displayed every second (1 complete frame displayed every 25th of a second). These frames are either displayed using the Interlaced Scan method or the Progressive Scan method.

With the implementation of the Digital TV and HDTV, the foundation of how frames are displayed still have their roots in the original NTSC and PAL analog video formats. In soon-to-be former NTSC-based countries, Digital and HDTV are implementing the 30 Frame-per-second frame rate, while soon-to-be PAL-based countries are implementing a 25 Frame-per-second Frame rate.



PAL-Based Digital TV/HDTV Frame Rate

Using PAL as a foundation for Digital TV or HDTV, with the frames are displayed as an interlaced image (1080i), each frame is composed of two fields, with each field displayed every 50th of a second, and a complete frame displayed every 25th of a second, using a PAL-based 25 frame-per-second frame rate. If the frame is in the progressive scan format (720p or 1080p) it is displayed twice every 25th of a second. In both cases, a unique high definition frame is displayed every 25th of a second in former PAL-based countries.

It is not that PAL and NTSC still matter, the factor that still matters is electrical system frequency in each country.

Just saw a thread (now locked) where someone inquired about PAL in HD and they were incorrectly advised that there is no such thing as PAL HD. There is no PAL HD. As noted, it's just a different electrical system in some countries; either 60Hz or 50Hz.

In reality the NTSC vertical scanning frequency is not 60 Hz it is 60/1.001. The 60/1.001 value is being used for HDTV as well in virtually all cases in NTSC countries because of the need to be able to convert between the HD formats and NTSC without dropping or repeating frames at the difference frequency.

There is no PAL HD. As noted, it's just a different electrical system in some countries; either 60Hz or 50Hz.

Okay, I grant you that it may not be called PAL HD. But, will any US televisions play 1080/50i or 1080/25pfs content? That was basically what the person needed to know.

But, will any US televisions play 1080/50i or 1080/25pfs content? That was basically what the person needed to know.Not unless the HDTV is 50Hz (& 240v) compatible, which some are, most aren't.

They could always get a frequency converter.

People will probably continue to call all 60Hz video "NTSC" and all 50HZ video "PAL", even though strictly speaking it is not NTSC or PAL. Just like we still say "dial a phone number" even though phones don't have literal dials anymore.

One NTSC concept will stay around. It's not 60Hz. It's 59.940Hz as will HD for a long time.

Here's my view on this - coming from a broadcast and engineering background, but as a consumer :

PAL and SECAM are technically purely ways of defining composite SD chroma encoding formats. (PAL uses a system similar to NTSC, but with alternating chroma phase on alternate lines to counteract hue distortions introduced by phase changes. SECAM uses line-sequential FM transmission - for massively more robust chroma transmission - but since it uses FM has poorer B&W compatibility, and also has potentially lower vertical chroma resolution)

SECAM is only deployed in the real world for 625/50Hz (aka 576/50i) chroma subcarriers around 4.2-4MHz.

PAL is deployed mainly in it's 625/50Hz (aka 576/50i) variant HOWEVER it IS also used in Brazil, which is 525/59.94Hz (aka 486-480/59.94i). PAL mainly uses a 4.43MHz subcarrier at 50Hz, and a 3.58ishMHz subcarrier at 59.94Hz, though some South American implementations use 3.58ishMHz at 50Hz as they use lower bandwith RF channels compared to other 50Hz territories (so need lower frequency chroma).

NTSC is an SD composite chroma encoding format, universally deployed using 525/59.94Hz and with 3.58MHz subcarrier (the UK came close to using a 625/50Hz 4.43MHz variant - and at one stage was looking at 405/50Hz 2.66MHz NTSC - but selected PAL quite late on in the decision-making process), but the National Television Standards Committee also specified the 525/60Hz B&W standard, so you could argue that whilst PAL and SECAM technically only define the chroma encoding system (and in PAL there are at least three different variants of line standard and/or chroma frequency) NTSC also defines the line standard.

Since we moved to modern digital TV production in both SD and HD - PAL and SECAM chroma encoding is not relevant, as there is no composite chroma in use - as we use digital component techniques (digital composite was shortlived) for production, and with digital TV transmission, also broadcast, as well as Blu-ray and DVD distribution.

In these situations, PAL is (technically incorrectly) used as shorthand for 50Hz (even though there is 59.94Hz PAL) and NTSC is used as shorthand for 59.94Hz (often referred to as 60Hz) This is, annoyingly, the case for DVDs...

The main reasons that countries chose different frame/field rates for their SD TV systems was so that they had the same mains electricity frequency as their picture rate (apart from Japan which as two mains electricity rates across the country, and has problems on-screen with discharge lighting flicker as a result) This reduced the problems caused by discharge lighting running at a different frequency to the camera/transmission system, and also meant that any mains hum was locked/slow moving rather than rolling.

Once we move to HD production - we have the benefit of common image formats that are the same at all frame rates - 1920x1080 and 1280x1080. This is in contrast to the 625 and 525 line standards (576 and 480 line images respectively).

However some of the reasons for chosing the frame rate based on your mains electricity standard - 50Hz or 59.94Hz - remain. There are also strong reasons to run your HD and SD production at the same rate, as it means that up and down conversion between SD and HD are both low-cost and high-quality processes. (Changing between 50Hz and 59.94Hz rates is much more expensive and still not transparent, and can cause problems with compression for broadcast)

Thus we remain in a situation where we have :

1080/50i and 720/50p HD broadcasts in 625/50 (aka 576/50i) SD territories. 50Hz HD video is sometimes incorrectly referred to as "PAL HD" In these territories 25fps film is shot for TV production usually, and HD video used to replace film runs at 25p (1080/25p, 720/25p more rarely)

1080/59.94i and 720/59.94p HD broadcasts in 525/59.94 (aka 480/59.94i) SD territories. 59.94Hz HD video is sometimes incorrectly referred to as "NTSC HD". In these regions film is usuall shot at 23.976fps for TV production (and converted to 59.94Hz using 3:2 pull-down/repetition) and HD video used to replace film runs at 23.976p.

Thus to receive local HD broadcasts HDTVs sold in Europe need to accept HD video, as SD video, at 50Hz. HDTVs sold in the US need to accept HD video, as SD video, at 59.94Hz.

Blu-ray HD releases of movies are almost universally encoded at 1080/23.976p, and replayed either in this format or with 3:2 pulldown to deliver a 720/59.94p or 1080/59.94i output. Unlike HD broadcasts, this means that there IS a universal HD standard for pre-recorded movie content.

This means that HDTVs sold worldwide need to accept 59.94Hz (and ideally 23.976Hz) video for replay.

Even in the days of SD, European CRT TVs were usually multi-standard, if not for off-air reception they were for baseband input via RCA phonos, S-video and RGB SCART, and accepted and displayed 525/59.94Hz and 625/50Hz inputs (almost all had PAL, SECAM and NTSC decoding). This was far less common in the US - where TVs were single-standard NTSC 525/59.94Hz only.

When HDTVs came around the same split appeared, and in fact European licensing has helped us in Europe.

All European TVs with "HD Ready" labelling MUST accept both 50Hz and 59.94Hz HD video at both 1080i and 720p. (1080p and 23.976Hz is optional - but increasingly widespread) This means that all European HDTVs will accept HDMI or Component feeds of both European HDTV broadcasts (at 50Hz) and US HDTV recordings and Blu-ray replay (at 59.94Hz, and optionally at 23.976Hz)

In the US, 50Hz compatibility is still far from universal ,whereas in Europe, 59.94Hz compatibility IS universal. (This doesn't mean you can use a European TV in the US to watch OTA HD, but if you plugged in a US HD set-top box, it would work fine. It also doesn't mean that European TVs will accept 100-110V/60Hz mains electricty...)

Of course our HDTV broadcast systems are VERY different.

In 50Hz territories the DVB systems (-T, -C and -S/S2 for terrestrial, cable and satellite) are the dominant family (with -T2 about to launch in the UK for HD OTA). China has its own 50Hz broadcast variant.

In 60Hz territories the ATSC 8VSB and QAM systems are used in North America (US, Canada, Mexico) and Korea (with AIUI a mix of DVB-S/S2 and proprietary systems for satellite, and some DVB-C for cable?) In Japan ISDB-T and ISDB-S are used for terrestrial and satellite (with some DVB-S as well), whilst in Brazil a tweaked version of ISDB-T is used. I think Taiwan is using DVB-T?

Taiwan uses DVB-T, with 6MHz channel spacing, and all UHF broadcasts. AFAIK they're the only country using DVB with 6MHz channels; Australia is 7 and the rest of the world is 8.

Here's my view on this - coming from a broadcast and engineering background, but as a consumer :

PAL and SECAM are technically purely ways of defining composite SD chroma encoding formats. (PAL uses a system similar to NTSC, but with alternating chroma phase on alternate lines to counteract hue distortions introduced by phase changes. SECAM uses line-sequential FM transmission - for massively more robust chroma transmission - but since it uses FM has poorer B&W compatibility, and also has potentially lower vertical chroma resolution)

SECAM is only deployed in the real world for 625/50Hz (aka 576/50i) chroma subcarriers around 4.2-4MHz.

PAL is deployed mainly in it's 625/50Hz (aka 576/50i) variant HOWEVER it IS also used in Brazil, which is 525/59.94Hz (aka 486-480/59.94i). PAL mainly uses a 4.43MHz subcarrier at 50Hz, and a 3.58ishMHz subcarrier at 59.94Hz, though some South American implementations use 3.58ishMHz at 50Hz as they use lower bandwith RF channels compared to other 50Hz territories (so need lower frequency chroma).

NTSC is an SD composite chroma encoding format, universally deployed using 525/59.94Hz and with 3.58MHz subcarrier (the UK came close to using a 625/50Hz 4.43MHz variant - and at one stage was looking at 405/50Hz 2.66MHz NTSC - but selected PAL quite late on in the decision-making process), but the National Television Standards Committee also specified the 525/60Hz B&W standard, so you could argue that whilst PAL and SECAM technically only define the chroma encoding system (and in PAL there are at least three different variants of line standard and/or chroma frequency) NTSC also defines the line standard.

Since we moved to modern digital TV production in both SD and HD - PAL and SECAM chroma encoding is not relevant, as there is no composite chroma in use - as we use digital component techniques (digital composite was shortlived) for production, and with digital TV transmission, also broadcast, as well as Blu-ray and DVD distribution.

In these situations, PAL is (technically incorrectly) used as shorthand for 50Hz (even though there is 59.94Hz PAL) and NTSC is used as shorthand for 59.94Hz (often referred to as 60Hz) This is, annoyingly, the case for DVDs...

The main reasons that countries chose different frame/field rates for their SD TV systems was so that they had the same mains electricity frequency as their picture rate (apart from Japan which as two mains electricity rates across the country, and has problems on-screen with discharge lighting flicker as a result) This reduced the problems caused by discharge lighting running at a different frequency to the camera/transmission system, and also meant that any mains hum was locked/slow moving rather than rolling.

Once we move to HD production - we have the benefit of common image formats that are the same at all frame rates - 1920x1080 and 1280x1080. This is in contrast to the 625 and 525 line standards (576 and 480 line images respectively).

However some of the reasons for chosing the frame rate based on your mains electricity standard - 50Hz or 59.94Hz - remain. There are also strong reasons to run your HD and SD production at the same rate, as it means that up and down conversion between SD and HD are both low-cost and high-quality processes. (Changing between 50Hz and 59.94Hz rates is much more expensive and still not transparent, and can cause problems with compression for broadcast)

Thus we remain in a situation where we have :

1080/50i and 720/50p HD broadcasts in 625/50 (aka 576/50i) SD territories. 50Hz HD video is sometimes incorrectly referred to as "PAL HD" In these territories 25fps film is shot for TV production usually, and HD video used to replace film runs at 25p (1080/25p, 720/25p more rarely)

1080/59.94i and 720/59.94p HD broadcasts in 525/59.94 (aka 480/59.94i) SD territories. 59.94Hz HD video is sometimes incorrectly referred to as "NTSC HD". In these regions film is usuall shot at 23.976fps for TV production (and converted to 59.94Hz using 3:2 pull-down/repetition) and HD video used to replace film runs at 23.976p.

Thus to receive local HD broadcasts HDTVs sold in Europe need to accept HD video, as SD video, at 50Hz. HDTVs sold in the US need to accept HD video, as SD video, at 59.94Hz.

Blu-ray HD releases of movies are almost universally encoded at 1080/23.976p, and replayed either in this format or with 3:2 pulldown to deliver a 720/59.94p or 1080/59.94i output. Unlike HD broadcasts, this means that there IS a universal HD standard for pre-recorded movie content.

This means that HDTVs sold worldwide need to accept 59.94Hz (and ideally 23.976Hz) video for replay.

Even in the days of SD, European CRT TVs were usually multi-standard, if not for off-air reception they were for baseband input via RCA phonos, S-video and RGB SCART, and accepted and displayed 525/59.94Hz and 625/50Hz inputs (almost all had PAL, SECAM and NTSC decoding). This was far less common in the US - where TVs were single-standard NTSC 525/59.94Hz only.

When HDTVs came around the same split appeared, and in fact European licensing has helped us in Europe.

All European TVs with "HD Ready" labelling MUST accept both 50Hz and 59.94Hz HD video at both 1080i and 720p. (1080p and 23.976Hz is optional - but increasingly widespread) This means that all European HDTVs will accept HDMI or Component feeds of both European HDTV broadcasts (at 50Hz) and US HDTV recordings and Blu-ray replay (at 59.94Hz, and optionally at 23.976Hz)

In the US, 50Hz compatibility is still far from universal ,whereas in Europe, 59.94Hz compatibility IS universal. (This doesn't mean you can use a European TV in the US to watch OTA HD, but if you plugged in a US HD set-top box, it would work fine. It also doesn't mean that European TVs will accept 100-110V/60Hz mains electricty...)

Of course our HDTV broadcast systems are VERY different.

In 50Hz territories the DVB systems (-T, -C and -S/S2 for terrestrial, cable and satellite) are the dominant family (with -T2 about to launch in the UK for HD OTA). China has its own 50Hz broadcast variant.

In 60Hz territories the ATSC 8VSB and QAM systems are used in North America (US, Canada, Mexico) and Korea (with AIUI a mix of DVB-S/S2 and proprietary systems for satellite, and some DVB-C for cable?) In Japan ISDB-T and ISDB-S are used for terrestrial and satellite (with some DVB-S as well), whilst in Brazil a tweaked version of ISDB-T is used. I think Taiwan is using DVB-T?
From what I understand from this you can use a TV from Europe in the US if you connect a digital to analog converter box and an electrical converter. But does it mean that a TV made for the US will work in Europe with an electrical converter and a European analog converter box?

From what I understand from this you can use a TV from Europe in the US if you connect a digital to analog converter box and an electrical converter. But does it mean that a TV made for the US will work in Europe with an electrical converter and a European analog converter box?

No, most US-spec sets only support 60i/p modes, not 50i/p; broadcast material in Europe is all in 50i/p rates, so a US-spec TV will just not work (whereas most Euro-spec TVs will do 60i/p as well; go figure).

Vizio is one common US TV brand that seems to allow 50 hz, Sony and Panasonic don't:(
Oh my cheap Insignia also allowed 50hz, moral of the story cheaper is better, at least for the possibility of your US TV working with 50hz.
I think the big boys deliberately disable 50 hz on their US products:mad:

From what I understand from this you can use a TV from Europe in the US if you connect a digital to analog converter box and an electrical converter.


Yep - for analogue (analog) OTA broadcasts a cheap VCR did the trick, now for digital OTA a CECB or other digital set top box, or a satellite receiver, will with composite, component or HDMI output.

US DVD players and Blu-ray players also work fine with European displays. (I know a few people in the UK who have imported US Region A Blu-ray players for use with European TVs)

Most DVD players sold in Europe will replay 50Hz discs at 50Hz and 60Hz discs at 60Hz - meaning optimum picture quality (no standards conversion required) because the European displays accept both standards.


But does it mean that a TV made for the US will work in Europe with an electrical converter and a European analog converter box?

No - whilst European HDTVs are both 50 and 60Hz compatible (and so will accept European and US standard SD and HD signals), many US HDTVs are only 60Hz compatible. As European HDTV is 50Hz, they can't cope with signals in this format.

AIUI it is often the bigger name premium brands (Sony, Panasonic) that are NOT 50Hz compatible in the US, cheaper brands are more likely to be (as they are often based on universal non-country specific generic designs?)

(Sony and Panasonic displays sold in Europe have to have 50/60Hz compatibility if they are to carry the "HD Ready" logo - which is a pan-European consumer standard for HD displays.)