Okay, I have a very old Theta Casablanca I from 1997. I had it configured with DD, laser disk board and basic dacs with no DTS. Yes, this was before DVD players took off with the laser disk players dying off. I've also lived with a Toshiba XA2 without blu-ray and have been quite content. Yes, I know I'm not the normal post on this thread when it comes to upgrading to the latest. My issue now with upgrading to blu-ray and not having DTS is that it seems Universal and Fox have their blu-ray titles made with DTS Master only, no DD backward compatible track. From what I know, Theta will only upgrade the Casablanca I and II units to III to support them since I don't believe I could order a DTS board for my unit. This is a very expensive option at $3,500 to start without even considering an upgrade to lossless codecs at some point.

What should I do??? I have a very good highend CD player that I run through the Casablanca direct route. This has served me well since the basic dacs were fine for movies. Maybe considering another processor is best at this point even though I really hate letting go of my Casablanca. Is there a processor that has a better preamp section than the Casablanca I and allows a direct CD route without any extra processing while still providing support for DD, DTS and all the lossless codecs??? That is a processor that doesn't have a bunch of technical bugs and works as it should with good support and reliability.

You should certainly have the Classe SSP 800 processor on your short list. Its a bug free next gen processor that has eliminated any jitter issues associated with HDMI. Has a gret passthrough and will likely shock you when you compare it to your CD player....you may end up using your CD player as a transport :)

Support from Classe is second to none. I put a HUGE amount of value on customer service and support, and must say Classe is at the top.


Certainly worth a listen.

You should certainly have the Classe SSP 800 processor on your short list. Its a bug free next gen processor that has eliminated any jitter issues associated with HDMI. Has a gret passthrough and will likely shock you when you compare it to your CD player....you may end up using your CD player as a transport :)

Support from Classe is second to none. I put a HUGE amount of value on customer service and support, and must say Classe is at the top.


Certainly worth a listen.


You're kidding with this suggestion right? I asked for something lower cost than upgrading my unit to a Casablanca III for $3,500 and you recommend the Classe SSP 800 at $8k? I might as well get the CBIII at this point. I'm just thinking there actually might be a unit for less $3,500 that has a very good analog preamp with a direct route along with DD, DTS, etc. even if an upgrade path for the lossless codecs cost more or around $3,500 to $5k if the preamp was very good with the lossless codecs included. Maybe I'm wishful thinking here.

You're kidding with this suggestion right? I asked for something lower cost than upgrading my unit to a Casablanca III for $3,500 and you recommend the Classe SSP 800 at $8k? I might as well get the CBIII at this point. I'm just thinking there actually might be a unit for less $3,500 that has a very good analog preamp with a direct route along with DD, DTS, etc. even if an upgrade path for the lossless codecs cost more or around $3,500 to $5k if the preamp was very good with the lossless codecs included. Maybe I'm wishful thinking here.

you are right....sorry I miss read.

The Casablanca 1 is old and not up to more current much less expensive surround processors. And you will have to update the DACs and processor itself at a cost of likely 10 grand or more, if and when the CB3 HDMI 1.3 upgrade becomes available. I hope it does, but until the fat lady sings and I have it I just don't know for sure.

What I hear from folks is that the Denon is a nice piece and you can find it on the web, do a search, for like $4,500 vs $7,500 retain.Might want to consider that.

By the way, my CB3's analog stereo direct input (bypasses digital processing) isn't nearly as good as my Theta Six Shooter multi-channel analog preamp. Another $2500 retail for that.

It all goes to how much you're lookin' to spend.

And I've been into Casablanca since 1997 so I know what I'm talkin' about.

If its less than $3500, the Integra DTC-9.9 (current) or DTC-9.8 (previous model)
are a great deal, and you can find them for a used 9.8 about $800.

The Casablanca 1 is old and not up to more current much less expensive surround processors. And you will have to update the DACs and processor itself at a cost of likely 10 grand or more, if and when the CB3 HDMI 1.3 upgrade becomes available. I hope it does, but until the fat lady sings and I have it I just don't know for sure.

What I hear from folks is that the Denon is a nice piece and you can find it on the web, do a search, for like $4,500 vs $7,500 retain.Might want to consider that.

By the way, my CB3's analog stereo direct input (bypasses digital processing) isn't nearly as good as my Theta Six Shooter multi-channel analog preamp. Another $2500 retail for that.

It all goes to how much you're lookin' to spend.

And I've been into Casablanca since 1997 so I know what I'm talkin' about.

If its less than $3500, the Integra DTC-9.9 (current) or DTC-9.8 (previous model)
are a great deal, and you can find them for a used 9.8 about $800.



Still wouldn't it be better to spend $3,500 to upgrade my CBI to a III since the preamp would probably be better than the Denon or Integra if I'm not that picky with movies? Obviously I've lived with a CBI with standard dacs for this long without feeling that I'm not enjoying a movie when I sit down and enjoy music as well even though the preamp is very old as you stated. I just simply don't have the time for critical listening any longer. I know you wouldn't be happy since your set up is at a much higher level so I'm trying to bring folks down to my reality that I'm just looking to get an AV processor hopefully better than my CBI for far less than $4-5k. It is 2009 so I would think that there should be plenty of great pieces out there fitting my price point that would be better than a CBI since I'm not looking to get the best on the planet at $5k or higher. Aren't there AV processors out there from Rotel or someone else that fits my needs?

Do what the rest of us are doing and wait until there is a worthy replacement.

To spend $3,500 to upgrade your Theta would be crazy at this point considering they may or may not come out with the HDMI upgrade soon.

Get the less expensive Integra and add a 2 channel pre-amp with home theater by-pass to tide you over until there is a worthy replacement.

I personally think we have a year or 2 until smaller company's like Theta and the like have new pre-pro's worth buying. With this economy they are not going to sell enough units to make it worthwhile so they might as well wait until things improve.

If you love your Theta then stick with it for now. There are other pre-amps in the used market that will tide you over nicely if you decide to go that route also.

As far as the comment on the Classe being $8K you better hold onto your lunch when the Theta HDMI upgrade cost comes out.

Do what the rest of us are doing and wait until there is a worthy replacement.

To spend $3,500 to upgrade your Theta would be crazy at this point considering they may or may not come out with the HDMI upgrade soon.

Get the less expensive Integra and add a 2 channel pre-amp with home theater by-pass to tide you over until there is a worthy replacement.

I personally think we have a year or 2 until smaller company's like Theta and the like have new pre-pro's worth buying. With this economy they are not going to sell enough units to make it worthwhile so they might as well wait until things improve.

If you love your Theta then stick with it for now. There are other pre-amps in the used market that will tide you over nicely if you decide to go that route also.

As far as the comment on the Classe being $8K you better hold onto your lunch when the Theta HDMI upgrade cost comes out.



Okay, good input.

So the preamp section of the Integra isn't very good to recommend another 2 channel preamp be used with it. I would think it would be similar to the CBI I own due. Is it?

I have no idea on what the Integra sounds like for 2-channel, Steve B. would be better at answering that. I just brought it up as other Theta owners seem to use it.

With the cost of a used Integra it would be a small investment to try out. You will definitely hear an improvement for Blu-ray movies though.

Although the MSRP is 5500, I'll still highly recommend the ADA Suite 7.1HD! I just completed my first install of one last week and I can say that all-in-all it's a great piece! ADA has included some very cool tools in this processor (through the software available to authorized dealers). There's the ability to setup every input for specific audio and video preferences, HDMI EQ to compensate for long runs via copper/ short runs via poor cables, TMDS compensation (adjustable), and as an addded bonus to those dealers that have the tools and the ability- multiband parametric EQ per channel per-input.

The PEQ program is for what I can tell a precurser to their Trinnov external box, and eventually to the Trinnov room correction to be built into the processors (Cinema Rhapsody ad Cinema Reference). This is an HDMI preamp with 8 HDMI inputs and 2 HDMI outputs that can be configured pretty much however you'd like, and I'd say that it sounds very comparable to the average CB setup (without extreme DACs I'd say it's every bit as good ). That last statement may raise the feathers of some of the hard-core Thetaphiles here, but I've had enough experience with both processors to make that statement- with extremes though, the Theta does still win. But I'd take the ADA over Onkyo or Integra any day (never heard the Classe, so ymmv).

Dan

Having owned the ADA Cinema Rhasody Mach II, III and Cinema Reference Mach II I am not surprised the Suite 7.1HD is a winner.

One of the most under rated pre-pro's in high end. I have never owned a Theta pre-pro so I can't comment on the difference but I have had many of the other top pre-pro's and the ADA's hold there own nicely.

The new Cinema Rhapsody's with the Trinnov EQ should be really nice. Heck, the older CR are nice too and with the analog inputs are Blu-ray ready!

I have no idea on what the Integra sounds like for 2-channel, Steve B. would be better at answering that. I just brought it up as other Theta owners seem to use it.


Not good. If you go with Integra then you will need to add preamp with a by-pass.

Not good. If you go with Integra then you will need to add preamp with a by-pass.

Not surprised considering my past experience with Onkyo products.

robertrobert

If you have not done so, you might want to repost your inquiry in another forum. This is, after all, the Ultra Hi-End (sic) HT Gear ($20,000+) area, and most everyone here is going to recommend something well above your $3,500 price point and, at the same time, think of it as a provisional step until you want to spend some real money.

I'm not slamming anyone here and I'm not mocking you; I just think you're asking the wrong people. There are certainly pre/pros and receivers that can exceed your current unit's performance at a fraction of its original cost given that it's 12 years old.

You might consider these forums:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=90

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=112

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=91

I do believe the advice to hang on a little longer to what you have may be the smart thing. A number of companies have fantastic units on the drawing board but have little incentive to try to manufacture and sell right now. Once these units come out, perhaps they'll finally bring HDMI implementation to a more useful, mature stage after all the half-@$$ed attempts we've seen so far. I'm betting a lot of very good units will come in under $3500.

They just won't be talked about here. :)

Just a thought, does the Theta have a 5 or 7 channel input? You could use a high end Blu Ray player and have it process the disc rather than spend all of the money now on and upgrade that seems temporary. For around 1k you could be watching Blu Ray?

Just a thought, does the Theta have a 5 or 7 channel input? You could use a high end Blu Ray player and have it process the disc rather than spend all of the money now on and upgrade that seems temporary. For around 1k you could be watching Blu Ray?

His CB2 is OLD!!!@@@ Has multiple sets of two channel analog inputs only. He must upgrade to the CB3 and then for another $2500 MSRP he can buy the Six Shooter multi-channel preamp, which is fantastic.

Look on Theta's website for MSRP prices. You will need to do the following:

1. Upgrade from CB1 to CB3
2. Change DACs (even Superior DACs are old and outdated compared to
the Premium, Superior II or Extreme DACs which must be used if and when the new HDMI 1.3 upgrade comes out)
3. Upgrade from CB3 to HDMI 1.3 audio version - reputed will cost at least 4 to 5 grand.

Upgrading the CB3 is way beyond his budget and he should look at other options.

I use the Integra 9.8 only for HDMI 1.3 audio from Blu Ray and HD DVD, with the 9.8's multi-channel analog outputs going into the Six Shooter. It sounds quite nice and I can live with it easily. I don't use the 9.8 for stereo. In fact, I no longer use the CB3's Extreme DACs for stereo, either. Though they are very, very good, they pale in comparison to my fairly new PS Audio PerfectWave Transport into my new PS Audio PerfectWave DAC into my Theta Six Shooter and out to my monoblocks.

I read this thread quickly and may have missed this, but what CD player are you using? Depending on its age, even some truly excellent high-end CDPs can be bested by modern pre/pros due to their modern DACs. If you're using an older CDP, the Integra is a good bet for both HT and 2-ch. I recently switched out a Krell Showcase pre/pro for the Integra 9.9 and have been very happy with the results. The 2-ch preamp section on the Integra is not *quite* as good as the Krell, but the Integra more than makes up for it with Audyssey room correction and more advanced DACs.

If you do have a capable CDP, then pairing the Integra (or a similar unit from NAD, etc.) with a solid 2-ch preamp is a good plan. The Adcom GFP-750 is an excellent analog preamp and can be found used on Audiogon for ~$750.

Steve, I wasn't aware how old this unit it. I am not very familiar with Theta, but I have a 9.9 and am using the stereo pre out to a McIntosh MC500 for 2ch, and I haven't seen a weakness that is more pronounced than the uncorrected anomalies of my room. I use the PS3 for my BluRay and I think it does a great job. I use a Crestron control system and love the Integra for how easily it programs, feedback, etc.

I read this thread quickly and may have missed this, but what CD player are you using? Depending on its age, even some truly excellent high-end CDPs can be bested by modern pre/pros due to their modern DACs. If you're using an older CDP, the Integra is a good bet for both HT and 2-ch. I recently switched out a Krell Showcase pre/pro for the Integra 9.9 and have been very happy with the results. The 2-ch preamp section on the Integra is not *quite* as good as the Krell, but the Integra more than makes up for it with Audyssey room correction and more advanced DACs.

If you do have a capable CDP, then pairing the Integra (or a similar unit from NAD, etc.) with a solid 2-ch preamp is a good plan. The Adcom GFP-750 is an excellent analog preamp and can be found used on Audiogon for ~$750.


Sorry I've been slow to get back with all the responses. Thanks to all for lending good feedback. Sorry also since I probably should have put my thread some place else. I just figured the Theta CB is a highend piece even though my CBI is very outdated.

For my CDP, I'm using a Naim CDX. Yes, it is old as well. I obviously don't spend the time doing critical listening so reason I've lived with my old set up for some time. It seems the Integra route will more than likely keep me very happy since to tell everyone the truth, I wouldn't even be considering an upgrade if my CBI had a DTS board in it for Blu-ray. If the Integra's preamp is around the same as my CBI then I probably be happy as long as it is clean without mucking up the sound too much.

Truthfully many tell me to wait a bit long but I really have no intentions of spending the type of dough needed to get my CBI to a CBIII when and if Theta provides a HDMI upgrade path. I just can't see spending that much money. With this in mind, I probably should see about the Integra. If I had about $7k or so to spend, I probably would check out the Arcam AV888 that I hear is a pretty awesome unit.

The Integra any how seems to get the most votes for being an excellent home theater processor and an average / okay preamp. I can live with this ratio since I watch 90% movies and 10% music (if that) any more.

Thanks All,
Robert

robertrobert

I do believe the advice to hang on a little longer to what you have may be the smart thing. A number of companies have fantastic units on the drawing board but have little incentive to try to manufacture and sell right now. Once these units come out, perhaps they'll finally bring HDMI implementation to a more useful, mature stage after all the half-@$$ed attempts we've seen so far. I'm betting a lot of very good units will come in under $3500.

They just won't be talked about here. :)


I do believe this is also very good advice. I've wondered why it seems that highend receivers will be in the $1-2k price range while processors start in the $5k+ range. It seems a company would hit one out of the park if they could provide s stellar processor for around $3,500 with excellent support.

Sorry I've been slow to get back with all the responses. Thanks to all for lending good feedback. Sorry also since I probably should have put my thread some place else. I just figured the Theta CB is a highend piece even though my CBI is very outdated.

For my CDP, I'm using a Naim CDX. Yes, it is old as well. I obviously don't spend the time doing critical listening so reason I've lived with my old set up for some time. It seems the Integra route will more than likely keep me very happy since to tell everyone the truth, I wouldn't even be considering an upgrade if my CBI had a DTS board in it for Blu-ray. If the Integra's preamp is around the same as my CBI then I probably be happy as long as it is clean without mucking up the sound too much.

Truthfully many tell me to wait a bit long but I really have no intentions of spending the type of dough needed to get my CBI to a CBIII when and if Theta provides a HDMI upgrade path. I just can't see spending that much money. With this in mind, I probably should see about the Integra. If I had about $7k or so to spend, I probably would check out the Arcam AV888 that I hear is a pretty awesome unit.

The Integra any how seems to get the most votes for being an excellent home theater processor and an average / okay preamp. I can live with this ratio since I watch 90% movies and 10% music (if that) any more.

Thanks All,
Robert

Since your focus is HT, I think you'll love the Integra. I'm mainly a 2-ch guy and I've been very happy with it. And blu-rays sound great with it. Best of luck!

I've wondered why it seems that highend receivers will be in the $1-2k price range while processors start in the $5k+ range.

I think you are perceiving such a big price gap because your estimate on high end receivers is rather wide of the mark. Ive never heard one at the $1k-$2k level be realistically described as high end. Its simply not enough to cover the cost involved. The current better receivers are way over that price.

I think you are perceiving such a big price gap because your estimate on high end receivers is rather wide of the mark. Ive never heard one at the $1k-$2k level be realistically described as high end. Its simply not enough to cover the cost involved. The current better receivers are way over that price.


I'm sure you're right. It just seems that more great processors need to get below the $5k price mark in today economy that doesn't look to greatly improve any time soon. That's all I was trying to point out. I could be way off on this for all I know since it has been a very long time since I've read up / researched the AV processors.

Since your focus is HT, I think you'll love the Integra. I'm mainly a 2-ch guy and I've been very happy with it. And blu-rays sound great with it. Best of luck!


Thanks Bob! I believe you're absolutely right. If you're happy with the Integra being a 2 channel guy and current on what is available, I'm sure I'll be satisfied if not tickled pink. I'm glad you provided honest feedback with liking the Integra since many probably could never live with it as a preamp.

I listened to my CDX player playing normal CD's and I actually think it sounds great. After nitpicking over cables, stands and almost everything else related to my system, I finally decided quite some time ago to enjoy the sound and stop being so critical on everything. I found I wasn't really enjoying the system I had since I was too busy trying to figure out why I didn't reach that never ending state of Nirvana.

This actually came to my mind just now, my CBI with standard dacs uses the same preamp that the CBI had with the upper end dacs at the time and was considered as a very good preamp by owners as well as reviewers. Now it is considered okay and not very good by many. I know, I know....there are design improvement that explains this. I guess my point is that if I have never been to any audio stores hearing what else is better to make me feel my CBI is inadequate then how would I know? I guess this is where I'm at because truthfully, I have never seriously listened to any new gear through the years even though I glance at what is available and read up on things from time to time. Of course I've done this intentionally since I know how distracted I can become when I do set my sights on some new piece of gear.........i.e. a Blu-ray player. Anyway I guess my point is that I'm sure the Integra will more than satisfy. As patient as I've been, I almost wonder if I should still hold out until ready to buy a permanent HDMI piece rather than needing to upgrade again. In fact, I told my wife that in the next year, I am looking to buy a new processor. She wanted me to keep it at $3,500 but I said it could be $3,500 - $5k. She didn't say too much. :) Hopefully more gear will come out out soon with HDMI finally settling down after Blu-ray won the war. I am very interested in the Arcam AV888 piece but of course this is over the $5k mark.......here we go again. It is never easy. Someone suggested a piece for $5.5k so maybe that is something to start investigating. Not sure what other pieces would be stellar in performance and reliability in the $3.5k or so price range. Anyway I want to make this journey more fun since I'm use to sucking the fun out of it by getting too involved in the search.

I am very interested in the Arcam AV888 piece but of course this is over the $5k mark.......here we go again.

The AV888 is indeed a great sounding unit. The AVR600 would also be worth a look. I use both and find them to be outstanding.