New Mac Minis today [Text View]

HiTekAlex

10-20-09, 02:29 PM

I like the MacMini server idea.
I am just not quite clear how that would work on a HTPC environment at this point. Unless AppleTV is going to be update around the corner, it seems silly to have a media server for people using the Mac Mini that can easily have their storage expanded by adding external drives.

You are right, a media server based on a pair of 2.5" laptop drives seems a bit silly to me. For any kind of serious storage, you will need an external enclosure supporting "real" 3.5" drives. For home media server, I'd much rather have an internal optical drive to simplify DVD/BD ripping (yes my Mini has BD drive).

Beyond that, I can't think of anything that MacOS Server offers in Home Theater space, what couldn't already be done with standard Snow Leopard.

The new Mini Server option is an interesting one for small businesses and the like, but it doesn't make all that much sense for Home Theater purposes.

wildrock

10-20-09, 02:36 PM

At $999, I don't think it's significant. There's nothing new about this mini other than a slight speed bump processor wise.

For those of us who already deploy Minis as traditional servers, it is a huge deal. With two internal drives, you can mirror them for redundancy, instead of having to buy external cases with a mirror, saving about $300 per server. Software is worth $500.

All in all a great upgrade for those who use Minis in the racks! Not to mention 4GB and speed bumps.

gugy

10-20-09, 02:49 PM

You are right, a media server based on a pair of 2.5" laptop drives seems a bit silly to me. For any kind of serious storage, you will need an external enclosure supporting "real" 3.5" drives. For home media server, I'd much rather have an internal optical drive to simplify DVD/BD ripping (yes my Mini has BD drive).

Beyond that, I can't think of anything that MacOS Server offers in Home Theater space, what couldn't already be done with standard Snow Leopard.

The new Mini Server option is an interesting one for small businesses and the like, but it doesn't make all that much sense for Home Theater purposes.

Thanks,
May I ask you how and what brand and price did you get the BR drive on your MacMini?
That seems interesting. I am actually thinking in putting one in my MacPro and use a Mini for only HTPC.

HiTekAlex

10-20-09, 03:18 PM

Thanks,
May I ask you how and what brand and price did you get the BR drive on your MacMini?

Matshita UJ-135, think I paid about $130 on eBay.

gugy

10-20-09, 03:21 PM

^^^^^^^^
Thanks. Sounds like a great deal.

Kalani

10-20-09, 05:27 PM

Matshita UJ-135, think I paid about $130 on eBay.

I know you can install a BR drive in a Mini, and probably can rip the data from it with the right software, but my understanding is you still can't use them for playing back BR disks, is that correct? (I am not referring to playing a large M4V file off of a BR data disk)

As to the rest, the new bump is nice, but I don't think I would want a second internal HDD at the cost of the optical drive, at least, not for HT purposes. And I don't see that OSX Server brings a single thing to the table from a HT standpoint. For use as an SMB server, sure, but not for HT.

Dale_S

10-20-09, 06:00 PM

You are right, a media server based on a pair of 2.5" laptop drives seems a bit silly to me. For any kind of serious storage, you will need an external enclosure supporting "real" 3.5" drives. For home media server, I'd much rather have an internal optical drive to simplify DVD/BD ripping (yes my Mini has BD drive).I guess you haven't seen the many servers made by HP, Dell and IBM that now use enterprise class 2.5" drives? In very large crowded server rooms, the move to more compact and energy efficient servers is both mandatory and desired.

The only thing I'm not sure about is what class of 2.5" drives are used in the new Mini server. The tech specs state 5400rpm SATA, which doesn't really sound like enterprise class to me. For real advantage as a server, Apple would have had to change to a SAS interface to use the 2.5" SAS drives that are now becoming very popular. That wouldn't be too difficult as SAS uses the same cabling as SATA.

Alas like others, I'm waiting until I hear if the mini can pass high definition audio through the DisplayPort?

NEO Dan

10-20-09, 06:17 PM

@ OP

The Mini is available with CPU's @ up to 2.66GHz

HiTekAlex

10-20-09, 09:04 PM

I know you can install a BR drive in a Mini, and probably can rip the data from it with the right software, but my understanding is you still can't use them for playing back BR disks, is that correct?

That's right, at least not in MacOS. You can theoretically play BD movies in Windows Bootcamp/Parallels. I never bother with that, as I just rip my BD disks to MKV/M4Vs.

I guess you haven't seen the many servers made by HP, Dell and IBM that now use enterprise class 2.5" drives? In very large crowded server rooms, the move to more compact and energy efficient servers is both mandatory and desired.

Again, here we're talking specifically about Media/HT servers, not a general enterprise File/Print/App type servers. You need multi-Terabyte storage to host any reasonable movie collection these days. 2.5" are still way behind full desktop drives in storage capacities and cost much more per Gigabyte. You're not going to build multi-Terabyte storage array with a pair of 2.5" laptop drives.

Dale_S

10-20-09, 09:40 PM

Again, here we're talking specifically about Media/HT servers, not a general enterprise File/Print/App type servers. You need multi-Terabyte storage to host any reasonable movie collection these days. 2.5" are still way behind full desktop drives in storage capacities and cost much more per Gigabyte. You're not going to build multi-Terabyte storage array with a pair of 2.5" laptop drives.Agreed with that point, and I'll elaborate more below. Where I do see the Mac Mini Server valuable is for small businesses that don't necessarily deal with large volumes of data. It will also be quite useful as a platform for virtual servers using VMWare Fusion. I have lots of ways that I can use a Mac Mini Server as a solution.

Back to our HTPC/media server needs - I have a 10TB array on a 2U rackmount running W2K8 Server (yuck, I know) with 12 hot swap SATA bays on an Areca controller. And I'm constantly running out space and looking for new options.

One of my thoughts was to just 'pretend' I had a catastrophic loss and erase the whole dang thing, but that's hard to do. Instead I'll tough it out and eventually do a one by one online RAID expansion using 2TB drives. You're right that these don't exist in the 2.5" form factor but with time and technology that too shall pass.

Where the Mac Mini Server will work as a HTPC/media server is as the host for the frontend (probably Plex) and as storage for my weekly TV recordings (probably HDPVR). Once watched, those recordings are tossed and the space reclaimed. Multiple clients could connect to the server to stream both the public iTunes library and/or recorded video.

A 1TB Mac Mini Server would work well for that, but I could probably do the same thing with a regular Mini running the client version of Snow Leopard; add my own 2nd drive and move the internal optical drive to an external enclosure, but it really doesn't save a lot of money.

What holds me back is the hope that I could add an external BluRay drive and get high def audio from the Mini. It doesn't seem likely from the announcement. I know I would have to rip my BluRays for now, seeing as there's no current playback software for with BluRay support. It's the lack of high def audio support that puts the idea on hold.

For now I'll continue to use my PS3 for my media needs. I'm running PS3MediaServer on my 10TB server. It does quite well so far, but I'm not adverse to looking for other options.

BTW - one other 'fail' on the new Mac Mini (and iMacs and MB) is the missing eSATA port. Apple is really falling behind by not adding this very useful connection. There are lots of eSATA RAID enclosures that are quiet and could easily complement a Mac Mini Server as a full media server solution.

PS: I re-read my initial reply after a friend mentioned it looked 'harsh'. It was not my intention to belittle or upset anyone - I just wanted to point out that 2.5" drives are used in server environments. :)

HiTekAlex

10-21-09, 12:12 AM

Agreed with that point, and I'll elaborate more below. Where I do see the Mac Mini Server valuable is for small businesses that don't necessarily deal with large volumes of data.

No argument there. These days even small/medium businesses use dedicated NAS appliances for heavy duty storage. So the app servers don't need large amounts of DAS.

Where the Mac Mini Server will work as a HTPC/media server is as the host for the frontend (probably Plex) and as storage for my weekly TV recordings (probably HDPVR). Once watched, those recordings are tossed and the space reclaimed.

OK, but not sure why 2nd hard drive would be needed for this. A single 320GB drive on my non-server Mini is more than plenty to hold a few weeks worth of EyeTV recordings. Stuff that I want to keep longer term gets moves to an external storage array. Disk redundancy isn't needed here, as by definition I can lose the data on "scratch" drive and not care.

What holds me back is the hope that I could add an external BluRay drive and get high def audio from the Mini. It doesn't seem likely from the announcement. I know I would have to rip my BluRays for now, seeing as there's no current playback software for with BluRay support. It's the lack of high def audio support that puts the idea on hold.

Or you can add BluRay drive today (external or internal). If/when MacOS is updated to support BD playback - you're prepared. Until then, you can still enjoy HD rips, albeit without HD audio (not a major drawback in my book). Either way, if your Mini is a primarily an HT server - I will argue that an optical drive is more important/useful than a second 2.5" bay.

BTW - one other 'fail' on the new Mac Mini (and iMacs and MB) is the missing eSATA port. Apple is really falling behind by not adding this very useful connection.

Agree to an extend. The external enclosure I use has both eSATA and FW800 ports. I would have preferred eSATA, but FW800 gives me good enough performance for my needs - streaming HD primarily.

PS: I re-read my initial reply after a friend mentioned it looked 'harsh'. It was not my intention to belittle or upset anyone - I just wanted to point out that 2.5" drives are used in server environments. :)

Hey don't worry about it - we all get excited about technology. That's what makes these discussions interesting :D

Dale_S

10-21-09, 01:32 AM

Or you can add BluRay drive today (external or internal). If/when MacOS is updated to support BD playback - you're prepared. Until then, you can still enjoy HD rips, albeit without HD audio (not a major drawback in my book). Either way, if your Mini is a primarily an HT server - I will argue that an optical drive is more important/useful than a second 2.5" bay.I have an external BD reader/DVD writer already and have used it on occasion on my current MacBook Pro. MakeMKV shows promise but I tend to use DumpHD on the Windows side for most of my rips. As MakeMKV matures, I'll likely use it more frequently. The reasons I prefer more storage for my HTPC/media server are two-fold:

1) I currently use Firewire recording with my Motorola DCT-6416 and the files are quite large and

2) if I go on vacation for 2 weeks or longer, I need the extra storage space to keep all the shows I want to watch when I get back.

So in my case, the extra storage of the Mac Mini Server is more useful than the optical drive. Especially true when I can use my external BD/DVD drive when required. Although it isn't too obscene to look at, it's a half height 5.25" enclosure with a fan and it isn't quiet. Eventually I'll replace it with a slimline BD/DVD drive in a slimline USB enclosure.

Obviously we both have different needs - your EyeTV doesn't have the storage requirement that Firewire recording and/or a future HDPVR do.

And in my case, I rarely use the optical drive except for ripping BDs. Having an internal DVD only drive is a waste to me.

Still, I'll wait until there's word on the audio support, which I suspect won't be good. Bummer... I really don't want to upgrade my current HTPC using Windows and would much rather use a Mac Mini. Alas the HTPC options are better with Windows, at least for the time being. Thank heavens for the great streaming playback capabilities of the PS3! :D

jeffkro

10-21-09, 10:17 AM

tji

10-21-09, 10:54 AM

Nobody mentioned that it now has the geforce 9400, this means if mac is not stupid they will put in hdmi out and have stereo, 5.1, and 7.1 audio out over hdmi. This seems like the biggest deal to me.

No one mentioned it because it wasn't a change. The previous generation of Mac Mini also had the GeForce 9400 GPU.

For now, we're stuck with the Mini-DisplayPort to HDMI adapter and toslink audio. I would prefer native HDMI, or at least Mini-DisplayPort to HDMI with audio integrated, but it's not a show-stopper for me.

wco81

10-21-09, 11:11 AM

HiTekAlex

10-21-09, 12:12 PM

Nobody mentioned that it now has the geforce 9400, this means if mac is not stupid they will put in hdmi out and have stereo, 5.1, and 7.1 audio out over hdmi. This seems like the biggest deal to me.

Update apple is stupid, no HDMI out and only headphone jack audio. What a waste, it could have been perfect.

You may want to read up on the Mini capabilities a bit.. As it was already pointed out, the latest Mini's video capabilities are exactly the same as the previous version - there is nothing new here.

Secondly, that headphone jack you're talking about is actually a combined analog/digital output. So you can use Toslink out and get your 5.1 digital sound that way. HDMI would have been only a minor convenience, it doesn't really make all that much difference.

jeffkro

10-21-09, 12:13 PM

ARe you sure about the mini DP to HDMI?

I see a mini DP to DVI but not HDMI.

I think you have to use optical audio input for the audio.

There must be royalties they're trying to avoid by having HDMI. Or their motherboards can't support integrated DVI and digital audio?

Or maybe they just want to make $30 on those mini DP adaptors.

My understanding is hdmi is dvi with audio included. So if its dvi out there is no way to get surround out, you are stuck with stereo. Dell makes a similar computer that you can customize, but its insanely expensive by the time you put what you want for HTPC.

grubavs

10-21-09, 12:13 PM

ARe you sure about the mini DP to HDMI?

I see a mini DP to DVI but not HDMI.

I think you have to use optical audio input for the audio.

There must be royalties they're trying to avoid by having HDMI. Or their motherboards can't support integrated DVI and digital audio?

Or maybe they just want to make $30 on those mini DP adaptors.

Kanex Mini DisplayPort Adapter To HDMI 1080p Video w/ Digital Audio (http://kanexlive.com/products/item.aspx?id=3495)

HiTekAlex

10-21-09, 12:15 PM

Still, I'll wait until there's word on the audio support, which I suspect won't be good. Bummer... [..] Thank heavens for the great streaming playback capabilities of the PS3! :D

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't your PS3MediaServer/PS3 streaming solution limited to only analog stereo? In other words, it doesn't even support 5.1 AC3 sound?

Just wondering, since you seem to be very particular about HD sound and the like, but you're happy with transcoded streaming? ;)

Ted Todorov

10-21-09, 01:02 PM

My understanding is hdmi is dvi with audio included. So if its dvi out there is no way to get surround out, you are stuck with stereo. Dell makes a similar computer that you can customize, but its insanely expensive by the time you put what you want for HTPC.
Did you not bother to read the post above yours? The Mac Mini outputs 5.1 digital audio via optical Toslink. How are you stuck with stereo???

Macs will never have HDMI -- Display Port does everything HDMI does only better, for longer runs, higher resolutions, etc. And the next generation will be the universal optical connectivity standard that Apple is working on with Intel.

jeffkro

10-21-09, 01:06 PM

Did you not bother to read the post above yours? The Mac Mini outputs 5.1 digital audio via optical Toslink. How are you stuck with stereo???

Macs will never have HDMI -- Display Port does everything HDMI does only better, for longer runs, higher resolutions, etc. And the next generation will be the universal optical connectivity standard that Apple is working on with Intel.

Really, is that standard optical that inputs to any receiver. If so that kind of addresses my concerns, I don't do 7.1. I love the idea of 14W idle, the lowest I have heard of with a standard PC is 45W with the new 45W athlon II. My current system is probably around 60W at idle and that's with a 65W athlonII. Of coarse I was able to go with a 1tb hard drive. 60 watts 24/7 for say an average life of 3 years is one hell of a lot of juice.

AnthonyMX

10-21-09, 01:35 PM

Kanex Mini DisplayPort Adapter To HDMI 1080p Video w/ Digital Audio (http://kanexlive.com/products/item.aspx?id=3495)

I may be mistaken here so apologies in advance but when I purchased a Mini the other day, Apple offered a DVI mini to HDMI for $19.99. What does this adapter have to justify the additional $50.00 that the one offered by apple doesn't? That is other than the extra USB.

Thanks

HiTekAlex

10-21-09, 01:46 PM

I may be mistaken here so apologies in advance but when I purchased a Mini the other day, Apple offered a DVI mini to HDMI for $19.99. What does this adapter have to justify the additional $50.00 that the one offered by apple doesn't? That is other than the extra USB.

Nothing. The only mild advantage of piping 5.1 audio via HDMI is if you have a TV that only supports HDMI-in, but no discrete Toslink input. Even in that case, you're probably getting your sound out of built-in TV stero speakers.. So digital 5.1 sound doesn't buy much.

You can also get mini-DP/DVI to HDMI adapters from Monoprice for under $10 bucks.

FredT

10-21-09, 01:47 PM

Really, is that standard optical that inputs to any receiver. If so that kind of addresses my concerns, I don't do 7.1. I love the idea of 14W idle, the lowest I have heard of with a standard PC is 45W with the new 45W athlon II. My current system is probably around 60W at idle and that's with a 65W athlonII. Of coarse I was able to go with a 1tb hard drive. 60 watts 24/7 for say an average life of 3 years is one hell of a lot of juice.
Yes, that's standard optical. I'm using the early 2009 version and it works very well going into my Denon AVR. I never power it down and let it sleep when it wants. It's so quiet I'd never know it was on were it not for the the power light.

wco81

10-21-09, 02:06 PM

But do Macs output digital audio through the mini DP or only video?

You can connect via HDMI but if the miniDP doesn't output audio ...

chefklc

10-21-09, 03:22 PM

do Macs output digital audio through the mini DP or only video?

Only video.

You can connect via HDMI but if the miniDP doesn't output audio ..

As others have already mentioned, you also run an optical cable, and yes that means nothing "better" than AC-3/DD 5.1/DTS.

This has already been the case for about a year now, and much-discussed...

milk

10-21-09, 04:25 PM

In reading it seems to me the greatest advantage of the new October 2009 mini is the 4GB RAM option --doubling the ram capacity from the last mini. And, of course, a bump in the processor options. Very happy to see more RAM but that seems to be the real extent of the upgrade.

HiTekAlex

10-21-09, 05:14 PM

In reading it seems to me the greatest advantage of the new October 2009 mini is the 4GB RAM option --doubling the ram capacity from the last mini.

Nothing new here - the previous version of Mini supports 4GB of RAM just the same.

Dick Shelton

10-21-09, 07:24 PM

From macminicolo.net:

There is one thing to note that most people don't know. The Mac minis are officially sold and supported to use 4GB of RAM. However, with that last Mac mini firmware upgrade, they will now support 8GB of RAM. These new minis already have this firmware applied.

Dick Shelton

10-21-09, 07:35 PM

How about a reference for that?

http://www.macminicolo.net/state2009.html

grubavs

10-21-09, 08:14 PM

I may be mistaken here so apologies in advance but when I purchased a Mini the other day, Apple offered a DVI mini to HDMI for $19.99. What does this adapter have to justify the additional $50.00 that the one offered by apple doesn't? That is other than the extra USB.

Thanks

Nothing. The only mild advantage of piping 5.1 audio via HDMI is if you have a TV that only supports HDMI-in, but no discrete Toslink input. Even in that case, you're probably getting your sound out of built-in TV stero speakers.. So digital 5.1 sound doesn't buy much.

You can also get mini-DP/DVI to HDMI adapters from Monoprice for under $10 bucks.

Well, FWIW, it gives you a single cable run to your AVR or TV, instead of two.

Dale_S

10-22-09, 12:45 AM

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't your PS3MediaServer/PS3 streaming solution limited to only analog stereo? In other words, it doesn't even support 5.1 AC3 sound?

Just wondering, since you seem to be very particular about HD sound and the like, but you're happy with transcoded streaming? ;)I won't call either of us right or wrong, but we each have individual preferences. :D PS3MediaServer is able to stream 5.1 audio as either AC3 or DTS/FLAC re-muxed to LPCM 5.1. The video in my BD rips is transcoded when needed to AVC or simply passed to the PS3 for native decode (i.e. MPEG2 transport streams). Alas this is still only AC3/DTS sound, and not TrueHD or DTS Master HD. The remux for those formats isn't currently available in PS3MediaServer.

Why am I content to live with this? Because the Mac Mini can't do any better and I already own the PS3. Buying a Mac Mini will get me no further. In the future it may be possible to stream TrueHD or DTS Master HD, especially since the new PS3 slim can bitstream those codecs.

Admittedly I'll have to buy a new PS3, but that's far cheaper than a Mac Mini. In the meantime, when I am watching (or re-watching) a movie with hi def audio that's worth it, I play the BluRay itself in my PS3. Unfortunately, a modern Windows HTPC can now do more than my PS3 or the Mac Mini.

The only reason I would upgrade to the Mac Mini is if it met all my HTPC requirements. I'm reticent to upgrade my existing Windows HTPC, even though the new ATI cards do bitstream hi def audio. I would much rather go the Mac Mini/Plex route, but it appears I can't do that yet.

Different strokes for different folks. You are happy with standard Dolby and DTS 5.1 sound, but I'm not. Don't get me wrong, it's still far better than 2 channel stereo, even with the advent of Prologic IIx, Neural Sound or DTS:Neo simulation.

Ted Todorov

10-22-09, 09:16 AM

MacMiniColo: The state of the Mac Mini (http://www.macminicolo.net/state2009.html)

Nathan_R

10-22-09, 11:09 AM

I had no idea this could handle 8GB of RAM now (unsupported though). Can't wait to test that.

milk

10-22-09, 05:02 PM

8GB of ram.... yow!

So does it make more sense to use the traditional/regular OSX mini as your HTPC or the mini with snow leopard sever? Looks like I have a lot of reading to do.

milk

10-22-09, 05:32 PM

Nothing new here - the previous version of Mini supports 4GB of RAM just the same.

Thanks for the clarity.

edalzell

10-22-09, 06:51 PM

8GB of ram.... yow!

So does it make more sense to use the traditional/regular OSX mini as your HTPC or the mini with snow leopard sever? Looks like I have a lot of reading to do.

Well as I use the DVD player in my Mini, I wouldn't get the Server version. Also, I am thinking about just upgrading the CPU in my mini instead of buying a new one.

HiTekAlex

10-22-09, 07:28 PM

I am thinking about just upgrading the CPU in my mini instead of buying a new one.

You can't. CPU is not upgradeable.

grubavs

10-22-09, 08:22 PM

Well as I use the DVD player in my Mini, I wouldn't get the Server version. Also, I am thinking about just upgrading the CPU in my mini instead of buying a new one.

You can't. CPU is not upgradeable.

Depends upon the edition of the mini... I upgraded my early 2006. However, not a good idea as it was costly and the video isn't anywhere near as good as current models. If I buy a new one, definitely smallest internal dive as possible and fastest chip, and now that I know I could go to 8GB RAM, I'd get the minimal RAM available...

milk

10-22-09, 10:22 PM

Having spent a couple of hours sifting/reading trough what little is available on the snow leopard server I can't see any reason, given my personal HTPC needs/uses, to use the server OS over the standard OS and mac mini so far. Looks like a great move for small business servers though. I guess what confused me is Phil Schiller's quote re 'snow leopard server mini is a good for home media server'.. well.. so is the standard mini and 1,000,000 other brands and builds of HTPC machines. His off the cuff remark had me think there may be something more to using leopard server for HTPC. I see nothing advantageous so far (for my uses). Ad, I don't know any one who doesn't use NAS for movie storage so the extra 2.5 hdd means very little/nothing, imo.

I decided on the standard mini with max proc option and max ram given the news of the firmware support.

gmwedding

10-23-09, 01:04 AM

So does it make more sense to use the traditional/regular OSX mini as your HTPC or the mini with snow leopard sever? Looks like I have a lot of reading to do.

I sort of think the value of the Mac mini server in the home theater may come into play with the next update to the AppleTV box, or when AppleTV is built right into a 40-inch, Apple Cinema LCD display (which has to be in the works). Hopefully, the next AppleTV also will be a big leap forward, with more Mac OS (Safari), App Store (Gaming) and Home Theater (video Rental and Purchase) features. We've just seen a new, 27-inch iMac with greater pixel density introduced. This means it can double as an HDTV with the addition of a USB HD tuner. This probably reflects the direction in which Apple is taking the Cinema Displays.

Apple is putting more of the Home Theater pieces into place. It's just happening more slowly than we'd hoped.

zoro

10-23-09, 02:42 AM

does mac mini come with hdmi out?

Andrew535

10-23-09, 10:16 AM

does mac mini come with hdmi out?

No. It has mini-DVI and mini-display port. There are adapters to connect either to HDMI. You can get 5.1 audio by plugging an optical cable into the headphone jack. The headphone jack doubles as a TOSLINK connector.

Troubleshooter

10-23-09, 10:18 AM

I picked one of these up to replace my Appletv. I used the mini-dvi to dvi adapter and a DVI to HDMI cable for video and one of the adapters for optical out for audio. Works fine. It would be nice to have everything via HDMI but such is life.

-Trouble

Andrew535

10-23-09, 10:22 AM

At $999, I don't think it's significant. There's nothing new about this mini other than a slight speed bump processor wise.

True for HTPC users. Regular Snow Leopard offers everything a home user needs for a HTPC or home file-server.

For home use, take the $599/£499 machine, put 4 or 8GB of RAM into it. Maybe take the 500gB internal drive upgrade.

The server box includes $500 worth of server software.

8G of RAM and 1TB of disk and OSX Server in a small package big deal if you are looking to fill up a rack with webservers. Power, cooling and rack space are expensive.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=155801&d=1256307747

HiTekAlex

10-23-09, 11:11 AM

does mac mini come with hdmi out?

Is it really so difficult to look at the http://www.apple.com/macmini/specs.html

HiTekAlex

10-23-09, 11:18 AM

8G of RAM and 1TB of disk and OSX Server in a small package big deal if you are looking to fill up a rack with webservers. Power, cooling and rack space are expensive.

I wonder how these "macminicolo" guys make any money, charging mere $55/month for a datacenter hosted Mini. I don't see stuffing a bunch of them in a rack as being cost-effective, without any OS virtualization. Renting rack space/bandwidth/power/cooling is very expensive these days.

Andrew535

10-23-09, 11:52 AM

I wonder how these "macminicolo" guys make any money, charging mere $55/month for a datacenter hosted Mini.

No idea. Macminicolo are a small customer in a large datacenter.

QT Streaming Server and 1TB of disk in a small box for $999 will find enough customers. And this is a supported configuration.

grubavs

10-24-09, 01:22 PM

zoro

10-24-09, 02:04 PM

with no hdmi does not make a good home theater pc for me.

tji

10-24-09, 04:02 PM

from OWC's latest email:

"Just before 10.6 came out, Apple released a firmware update for the Mac mini... Although testing we did then with the latest 10.5.x was no go for 8GB, testing this very day with all the March and October shipped minis is 'A Go' for 8GB. This testing with confirmed Mac mini 8GB memory support was all run under OS 10.6 'Snow Leopard'. We will be retesting to see if 10.6 is a requirement for the 8GB support or if other updates for 10.5.x allow 8GB under Leopard as well."

The 2x4GB DDR3 SODIMMs are way too expensive. I have been waiting for the prices to drop, to buy a couple for my 17" MBP laptop.

But, for HTPC usage, 4GB seems like plenty. Does anyone have HTPC apps that require huge amounts of RAM?

pj325is

10-24-09, 04:24 PM

My early 2009 mac mini worked fine as an HTPC even when it only had 1gb of ram. 4gb should be more than enough for an HTPC for a long time.

Dick Shelton

10-25-09, 09:35 PM

But, for HTPC usage, 4GB seems like plenty. Does anyone have HTPC apps that require huge amounts of RAM?

On my news server, alt.binaries.movies.divx holds 42,000,000 messages today. News server retention increases with cheaper disk and server competition. A good news server can, if asked, display all messages and allow you to scroll through them. The news sever Unison is far and away my biggest ram hog. Of course, under the pressure of these numbers, one finds another way to access the message database. If you just use the Mini for a DVD player, you just need enough ram to get the largest shared video memory.

Nevertheless, each OS X upgrade seems to give me more beachballs than the last.

Andrew67

10-26-09, 10:59 PM

Nevertheless, each OS X upgrade seems to give me more beachballs than the last.

Then there's something wrong with your installs as each version of OSX has been getting incrementally faster and fewer and fewer beachballs on every machine I've installed.

Russ Younger

10-27-09, 02:13 PM

kenliles

10-27-09, 03:33 PM

Then there's something wrong with your installs as each version of OSX has been getting incrementally faster and fewer and fewer beachballs on every machine I've installed.

+1
and mine took a substantially bigger drop with Snow... Love the way it improved performance on my Air - always a challenged device...

ken

greedo

10-27-09, 05:50 PM

You're probably running into disk I/O issues with your newsserver. When I ran one on FreeBSD ages ago, news was a beast on slow disks.

grubavs

10-27-09, 07:40 PM

Troubleshooter

10-28-09, 04:12 PM

To play 1080P MKV rips on my 2.26/2GB ram machine I had to set h.264 acceleration to 'medium' in Plex to achieve smooth playback (disables loop filter). I really doubt a 2.66 would make much of a difference. The issue is in the software and lack of hardware acceleration. Now in itunes/quicktime this may be a whole different story, no idea there.

-Trouble

RanmaChan

10-29-09, 01:01 PM

Or maybe they just want to make $30 on those mini DP adaptors.

Yes, I'm sure that is exactly it.

And if you want to save $22 or so and buy a DP to HDMI adapter (that supports audio, but mac mini's do not so it is irrelevant):
*cough* Monoprice.com *cough*

Andrew535

10-29-09, 01:44 PM

with no hdmi does not make a good home theater pc for me.

The only Apple product with an on-board HDMI connector is the Apple TV.

I don't understand why you need an on-board HDMI connector. Adapter cables are easy. There won't be any audio on HDMI, but the mini does 5.1 on the TOSLINK port.

geeji

10-31-09, 05:00 AM

Does the stock 2.25ghz config have enough horsepower to stream 1080p BR rips? Should I go for the 2.5 ghz model instead? My 2.66 imac can stream the files just fine but would a slight drop in processor speed make a difference? Thanks for the help everyone.
I have the latest Mac Mini, maxed out at 2.66GHz and 4 GB, running Snow Leopard 10.6.1.
I use it with EyeTV 3.2.1 to watch HD H.264 channels (1440 x 1080p @ 25fps).
It works fine... then it does not anymore.
What I mean by that is that EyeTV oscillates every 5-10mn between 2 modes :
- low CPU usage (EyeTV process 100% out of 200%) and good picture quality (no skipped frame, no pixellating)
- high CPU usage (180% out of 200%, 0% idle) and bad quality (skipped frames, heavy pixellating)
The degradation does not seem related to any user action nor any program behavioral change. It occurs on all HD channels.
I opened a ticket to Elgato and am waiting for their answer.

So going back to your question, yes the Mac Mini 2.66GHz hardware is enough to decode full HD pictures @25 fps, but ultimately it all depends on what player you are using and how well that one works with Snow leopard and the 9400M video card.
We may have to wait for months before we get decent optimization for those (especially now that Intel managed to kill the Nvidia 9400M successor :mad: )

Dick Shelton

11-01-09, 10:44 PM

So, has anybody ever witnessed h.264 video acceleration from the 9400 under any circumstances?

sdavilla

11-02-09, 12:43 AM

So, has anybody ever witnessed h.264 video acceleration from the 9400 under any circumstances?

XBMC for Linux with vdpau enabled :)

Ted Todorov

11-02-09, 09:14 AM

I have the latest Mac Mini, maxed out at 2.66GHz and 4 GB, running Snow Leopard 10.6.1.
I use it with EyeTV 3.2.1 to watch HD H.264 channels (1440 x 1080p @ 25fps).
It works fine... then it does not anymore.
What I mean by that is that EyeTV oscillates every 5-10mn between 2 modes :
- low CPU usage (EyeTV process 100% out of 200%) and good picture quality (no skipped frame, no pixellating)
- high CPU usage (180% out of 200%, 0% idle) and bad quality (skipped frames, heavy pixellating)
The degradation does not seem related to any user action nor any program behavioral change. It occurs on all HD channels.
I opened a ticket to Elgato and am waiting for their answer.

So going back to your question, yes the Mac Mini 2.66GHz hardware is enough to decode full HD pictures @25 fps, but ultimately it all depends on what player you are using and how well that one works with Snow leopard and the 9400M video card.
We may have to wait for months before we get decent optimization for those (especially now that Intel managed to kill the Nvidia 9400M successor :mad: )
Don't worry about GPU optimization, your machine is more than fast enough without it.

EyeTV under Snow Leopard has been a disaster -- I've been too busy/lazy to open tickets with Elgato, but direct digital audio out is completely broken, even after the "fix" and I have had all sorts of problems with recordings/ playback -- skipped frames all over the place (making it totally unwatchable) on 1080i Letterman, 720P World Series randomly "pausing" during playback for a second and then resuming. (This on a 2009 model MacPro). It's just a mess. Certainly upgrading from Leopard to Snow Leopard if you make heavy use of EyeTV is bad idea until they fix some stuff. And to boot firewall support if you have an HD HomeRun is broken in the current EyeTV software under either Leopard or Snow Leopard.

Elgato needs to stop whatever future development they are doing and fix their bugs.

Russ Younger

11-02-09, 12:22 PM

Thanks everyone for the advice and help. Seems like the 2.6 ghz model is a great deal.

grubavs

11-02-09, 03:19 PM

Thanks everyone for the advice and help. Seems like the 2.6 ghz model is a great deal.

I thought so - one (2.66GHz, 4GB RAM, 320GB HD) is on the way to me from Shenzhen, China (well, actually in the FedEx facility in Shenzhen, China - I stupidly cheaped up and went with the free shipping :()!

EDIT: shoot, had to get my cat to the vet, and FEDEX online showed the mini still in transit to the local station. I got back and missed delivery of the mini by 20-minutes! Auggh! I shoulda per-signed :(:o

grubavs

11-04-09, 09:13 PM

I'm adding another post since I am fairly sure I had a one-in-a-million today!

Missed FedEx delivery (11:06) of my new mini by about 20-minutes this morning (didn't pre-sign on line cuz it wasn't listed as delivery until Friday at 9:30 this A.M.). I called FedEx and the person I spoke to was very nice, took my info and said she see what could be done and the local shop would get back to me. I even volunteered to drive to where ever the truck was currently to get my mini. Anyway, nothing happened by 3 P.M. so I decided tomorrow was when it'd be here... but no! The driver came back at about 3:15 :eek: I am happy and amazed!

Oh, yeah... the new mini (2.66 GHz, 4GB RAM) works like a charm with Plex and BD rips! It also works much nicer with my Sony 52" XBR5... 1080p easy, fits the screen perfectly, menu is visible. A very nice upgrade over my early 2006 mini...

filecat13

11-05-09, 01:48 PM

Anyway, nothing happened by 3 P.M. so I decided tomorrow was when it'd be here... but no! The driver came back at about 3:15 :eek: I am happy and amazed!

Oh, yeah... the new mini (2.66 GHz, 4GB RAM) works like a charm with Plex and BD rips! It also works much nicer with my Sony 52" XBR5... 1080p easy, fits the screen perfectly, menu is visible. A very nice upgrade over my early 2006 mini...

FedEX occasionally has been good to me, too. It's good to give praise when one can--it happens all too infrequently.

Thanks for the new Mini update. Hope to read more as you spend some time with it and gain new insights.

grubavs

11-05-09, 04:48 PM

I'm not an expert by any means, but I know what I see. My new mini integrates into my HT much more seamlessly than did the Early 2006 (which I had upgraded to 2.33GHz CPU & 320 GB/7500RPM HD). Examples:
1. Connected using the included adapter so DVI - HDMI to my Sony 52" XBR5: New mini perfectly adjusts to the screen, old mini not at all (either the menu is off the screen, or there's a bit of black lines around the desktop).
2. Connected DVI-HDMI to my Onkyo 805, the older mini wouldn't handshake at all. Using the Kanex Apple mini-display port - HDMI connector (includes digital audio with a mini-Toslink-Toslink cable attached) to my Onkyo 805, perfect picture, handshakes fine. So now I'll have one HDMI to my Sony!
3. New mini much faster at all tasks I've thrown at it so far including software updates (which I thought was a bit weird considering they just made the darned thing:confused:), installing and using software like Plex (which really works considerably easier with the new mini... I don't know what causes that, but I'm happy about it ;)).
That's about it so far...

EDIT: I forgot one of the most interesting things... I couldn't watch DVD or BD rips over Airport 302.11n with the old mini (my rips are all on my Mac Pro in my office). They would beak up, stutter, etc. Had to run a 35-ft ethernet cable through the house to watch a video... not now. I tested it this morning... BD and DVD rips play perfectly over my Airport network!

filecat13

11-05-09, 06:53 PM

Very cool. Thanks.

kenliles

11-05-09, 07:04 PM

EDIT: I forgot one of the most interesting things... I couldn't watch DVD or BD rips over Airport 302.11n with the old mini (my rips are all on my Mac Pro in my office). They would beak up, stutter, etc. Had to run a 35-ft ethernet cable through the house to watch a video... not now. I tested it this morning... BD and DVD rips play perfectly over my Airport network!

grub- what format are you playing rips (file- TS, m4v, mks, other); ?

ken

jason75

11-05-09, 07:25 PM

Your old mini was 802.11g, your new one is 802.11n.

grubavs

11-06-09, 10:08 AM

Your old mini was 802.11g, your new one is 802.11n.

No, I've been 100% 802.11n, 5GHz since I could be. I had the old mini connected to my main Airport Extreme via 1.5-ft ethernet cable, my Mac Pro connected via 3-ft ethernet cable to another Airport Extreme. All I did was to remove the old mini, connect the new mini.
It's more likely the video circuit (but somebody more qualified than I can probably confirm/deny that)

grubavs

11-06-09, 10:39 AM

grub- what format are you playing rips (file- TS, m4v, mks, other); ?

ken

Hi Ken. DVD rips are from MTR v3 so .VOB in a _TS folder, and BD rips are from MakeMKV so .mkv.

kenliles

11-06-09, 11:04 AM

Hi Ken. DVD rips are from MTR v3 so .VOB in a _TS folder, and BD rips are from MakeMKV so .mkv.

great - thanks...

you might be right about the video being the difference; Snow Leopard and new mini made some targeted improvements for video performance; Not sure if Plex is using the 9400 video acceleration.. regardless it's great to hear the mini performance at these levels... Along with the new 3.0 AppleTV software we are finally making some good headway with Apple solutions for our HTs!!!

thanks for the feedback..
ken

greedo

11-06-09, 11:05 AM

What are you using for your BR rip playback?

Russ Younger

11-06-09, 01:12 PM

I can also say that every BR rip that I have made has played perfectly in PLEX wirelessly on my new min. Picture quallity has been excellent with few dropped frames. Cars, Kill Bill 1 and 2 close encounters and Harry Potter 1-5 HDDVD rips all worked great without noticible stutter. Tne new minis are made for HT. Best of all it only took me a couple of hours from opening the box to lauching PLEX and using the snatch ipone remote. Slick. Oh yeah it plays Netflix and Hulu great too!

wco81

11-06-09, 01:25 PM

Is there a good DVR solution yet or in the wings?

I assume Netflix isn't sufficient because it doesn't have all the current season of shows and Hulu is also limited, especially when it comes to HD.

I know about EyeTV but really looking more for either CableCard or D* support.

Actually, the rumors about Apple trying to convince the networks to put together a $30 package are tempting but probably too good to be true.

chefklc

11-06-09, 02:50 PM

Is there a good DVR solution yet or in the wings?

It doesn't really have anything specific to do with the new minis, but yes, there are pretty good DVR solutions.

I assume Netflix isn't sufficient because it doesn't have...

programming for the Mac in HD; in fact, it rarely approaches dvd quality.

Hulu is also limited, especially when it comes to HD

Agreed, I'm a little disappointed that so few shows have been added in HD. I have Netflix and Hulu desktop on my home theater Mac and I think you get exactly what you pay for with both--that is, not much, I find I turn to them increasingly less and less often--really, they're nice as insurance, but if I can get a given program or title ANY other way, either with EyeTV or over firewire from my cable STB or wait for the actual disc or simply download it, I do. Because ALL of those sources are better quality than NF or Hulu.

I know about EyeTV but really looking more for either CableCard or D* support

EyeTV has been a great way to record clearQAM HD for years, it still is a great way to obtain all the typical network and PBS HD programming, especially with something like the dual tuner HD HomeRun. There's also recording HD over firewire, which I do to complement EyeTV. Then there's the two biggest developments in Mac home theater in the past few years: 1) blu-ray ripping with MakeMKV and 2) real OS X software support for the Hauppauge HD PVR. Look into the latter--that means with EyeTV or Steve Toth's HDPVRCapture software you can record anything over component, as long as your D* unit has component out, that is.

wco81

11-06-09, 03:00 PM

I didn't know there was an Hauppage DVR. Their CableCard tuners are expensive.

Actually, I was looking to replace the D* DVRs. I played around a bit with the EyeTV and it found channels on Comcast but with odd channel numbers. The guide really didn't work that smoothly. Didn't seem to be the kind of setup that you could rely on to replace a dedicated DVR.

chefklc

11-06-09, 03:50 PM

I didn't know there was an Hauppage DVR

Well good, glad to help. It's a game-changing device when it comes to Mac HT.

Actually, I was looking to replace the D* DVRs.

well, the Hauppauge wouldn't replace them, per se, because you'd still need them to tune/capture all your D* programming; you'd then run component from one of them into the Hauppauge in order to get the content onto your Mac over USB. Then once it's on your Mac and/or network storage, it can be sent anywhere around the house.

I played around a bit with the EyeTV and it found channels on Comcast but with odd channel numbers. The guide really didn't work that smoothly. Didn't seem to be the kind of setup that you could rely on to replace a dedicated DVR

Perhaps you didn't play with it thoroughly enough. Many of us here are EyeTV veterans...4 years ago, maybe 5 by now, we were recording 3 different HD shows simultaneously with EyeTV on the same Mac. It's still not a "Tivo-like" experience, but it easily replaces a dedicated DVR, with none of the dedicated/proprietary DVR drawbacks, i.e. once you record the show, you're free to copy it, transcode it, move it, archive it, at any time, anywhere. All easily controlled with an iPhone or touch. That may or may not be important to you.

There's no single turn key DVR solution for this in OS X, most of us use some combination of third party devices and OS X software and still subscribe to D*/cable.

If you're looking to replace your D* or cable STB devices completely--and hoping for some CableCARD-equipped 100% equivalent Mac compatible DVR system--well, let's just say you'll be waiting for a long time.

tji

11-06-09, 07:56 PM

No, I've been 100% 802.11n, 5GHz since I could be. I had the old mini connected to my main Airport Extreme via 1.5-ft ethernet cable, my Mac Pro connected via 3-ft ethernet cable to another Airport Extreme. All I did was to remove the old mini, connect the new mini.
It's more likely the video circuit (but somebody more qualified than I can probably confirm/deny that)

I had the same issues a few months ago. I would get terrible Airport to Airport bridging throughput.

When I got my new Mini (1st release NVidia Mini, first day released) I tried streaming directly from my Mini to the remote Airport and got great performance. Shortly after that, there was a firmware update for the Airport Extremes which fixed the performance issues. Now, I went back to the Airport to Airport streaming.

I posted about it, with some throughput stats, here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1126812

Phrehdd

11-07-09, 02:27 AM

Here are some options for merging digital audio with video from the Mac Mini and passing signals thru HDMI.
Gefen DVI + Audio to HDMI

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=3570

StarTech DVI and Digital Audio to HDMI Converter

http://www.startech.com/item/DVI2HDMI-DVI-digital-audio-to-HDMI-converter.aspx

Kanex Mini DisplayPort Adapter to HDMI 1080p Video w/ Digital Audio

http://www.kanexlive.com/products/item.aspx?id=3495

SIIG DVI + Audio to HDMI

http://www.siig.com/ViewProduct.aspx?pn=CE-HM0031-S1

Cheers

- Phrehdd

grubavs

11-07-09, 01:33 PM

Ted Todorov

11-13-09, 09:24 AM

In previous years, the only serious (in other words, not clearly a POS in comparison) "PC" competitor to the Mini was by Sony, and cost $2000+ (the no brand things were strictly POS).
Dell has thrown their hat into the ring, and the prices are now closer to the Mac Mini. (http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2009/11/dells-zino-hd-is-a-candy-colored-mac-mini-killer/)

The good news, the Dell offers Blu-ray. And looks good, fun. The bad news -- with the processor top speed (AMD -- and I really don't know how to do a 1:1 comparison with the C2D) is 1.8GHz, which can't possibly compare favorably to a 2.66GHz Intel C2D?

My guess: they don't have the C2D option because they want to avoid direct price comparisons to the MacMini which they would still lose. It also seems to have 3.5" drives in there (how else would it top out at 1TB), thus one would think it is larger/ heavier than the Mini? Fan noise, long term reliability -- unknown.

wco81

11-13-09, 10:33 AM

Ted Todorov

11-13-09, 12:04 PM

The Dells start at $299 but if you add Blu-Ray and other options, it probably gets around the Mini's price.

Of course you have Blu-Ray and maybe HDMI?

Maybe they can't deal with too much heat output so no C2D.
They are in fact appreciably bigger then the Mini, so one would think the could handle the same CPU. Another thing about the Dell -- no "N" WiFi, and off course, no Firewire. Yeah, after the superficial first look, the Mac Mini still stands without a real, feature for feature "PC" competitor. Five (?) years on....

wco81

11-13-09, 12:45 PM

What about the Shuttles, though I realize they're way more expensive.

I don't have to have Blu-Ray but I'd rather not have to deal with more cables than HDMI.

If Apple pulls off the rumored proposal for $30 package (I don't know why the networks and content providers would ever agree to this), then it would make the Mini way more attractive.

Otherwise, it seems for DVR options, especially with cable channels, Windows has more support, especially from tuners and such.

lidrummer

11-13-09, 01:59 PM

Not wanting to start a flame war here...just need to set the record straight.

They are in fact appreciably bigger then the Mini, so one would think the could handle the same CPU.

Barely.

Another thing about the Dell -- no "N" WiFi, and off course, no Firewire.

Wrong! "N" WiFi is available -- it's a $40 option but considering the base price without it, I don't think you can make a legitimate argument here. Firewire is not necessary since this has 2 eSata ports which are faster than Firewire.

The Dells start at $299

and Wrong! Try $229.

Yeah, after the superficial first look, the Mac Mini still stands without a real, feature for feature "PC" competitor. Five (?) years on....

I wouldn't say so...one can configure one of these Dell puppies including the fastest offered processor, 4 GB RAM, 1 TB HDD, DVD Burner, keyboard/mouse and "N" WiFi for just a squeeze over ($628) the base Mac Mini ($599) and the best one could do for an equivalent Mac Mini would be a 500 GB HDD and 4 GB RAM on the base model for $899. Oh, and it also has an HDMI port which after 5 years (?) is still missing on any Apple product.

Don't get me worng...for everyday computing use, I would take a Mac hands-down over any Windows machine, but for an HTPC, Apple has let us all down again.

Nathan_R

11-13-09, 02:36 PM

After a long day of supporting a whole mess of terrible drivers for Dell laptops/desktops at work, I think I would pull my hair out if I had to deal with that at home in my theater, too.

Ted Todorov

11-13-09, 03:58 PM

Not wanting to start a flame war here...just need to set the record straight.
Barely.
...
Oh, and it also has an HDMI port which after 5 years (?) is still missing on any Apple product.

Do you mean that 2.66 GHZ C2D is "barely" faster than the 1.8GHz AMD? Or that the Dell is "barely" larger than the Mini? If you are arguing the second, it isn't true -- someone on another forum calculated the Dell is 145% larger: I know that doesn't seem much bigger, if you compare the total size (volume), you're looking at 206.856 cu. inches compared to 84.5 cu. inches (which means the Dell is almost 145% larger than the Mini)
In other words, when it comes to cooling the Dell has all kinds of space to cool a faster CPU.

As for HDMI, please, lets not go there. Let me go on the record that I don't want HDMI on a Mac Mini -- I want the clearly superior Display Port. Now you can argue about Apple's soundless Display Port implementation, but so far as HDMI is concerned the sooner it dies an ugly death, the better.

wco81

11-13-09, 04:40 PM

Since most HDTVs have HDMI, why would DP be preferable?

Especially when Apple's DP doesn't carry audio?

Doesn't DP also support HDCP?

Ted Todorov

11-13-09, 05:16 PM

Since most HDTVs have HDMI, why would DP be preferable?

Especially when Apple's DP doesn't carry audio?

Doesn't DP also support HDCP?

Yes, DP supports HDCP. The problem with HDMI isn't HDCP, which can be supported under DVI as well. The problem with HDMI is that it is unreliable, especially over longer cable runs, connects less securely than DP and has lower bandwidth. DP is also royalty free.

If Apple were to give in and support HDMI, we'd be stuck with it forever. Now there is at least hope that the CE industry will be forced in the future to give up HDMI for a better, more reliable standard.

And yes, I agree that Apple's DP needs to start carrying audio.

lidrummer

11-13-09, 05:24 PM

Do you mean that 2.66 GHZ C2D is "barely" faster than the 1.8GHz AMD? Or that the Dell is "barely" larger than the Mini?
I meant for size. 7.8"x7.8" vs. the 6.5"x6.5" footprint of the mini but OK, I'll concede that my idea of "barely" may not be the same as yours.

Either way, for HTPC usage, I still think this Dell has a leg-up on the Mini for the same price point. Apple missed a good opportunity with the latest refresh to do something about it and blew it. I wish that wasn't true because I like Macs a whole lot more than I like PCs.

DP may be better than HDMI but unfortunately, every piece of HT equipment built these days uses HDMI so that is what people are going to want from their HTPC. This reminds me of the VHS/Betamax debate where the Betamax was a much better standard and lost out too.

stevegt87

11-13-09, 06:15 PM

In a HTPC I want plenty of CPU horsepower so that it can support HD with all internet video types. Video acceleration is just too hit and miss.

IMHO, the zino is just another cheap underpowered PC. Might have more uses as a media server since it has eSATA ports. I've built three PCs over the years and still use them at work. I always end up disgusted with the experience.

lidrummer

11-13-09, 06:32 PM

In a HTPC I want plenty of CPU horsepower so that it can support HD with all internet video types.

Read the reviews...the AMD 3250e can handle anything out there that you throw at it.

stevegt87

11-14-09, 01:21 AM

Read the reviews...the AMD 3250e can handle anything out there that you throw at it.

Could you point out some reviews? I see it compared to Celerons and Atoms.

Phantom Gremlin

11-14-09, 04:57 AM

I meant for size. 7.8"x7.8" vs. the 6.5"x6.5" footprint of the mini but OK, I'll concede that my idea of "barely" may not be the same as yours.

I agree with you. IMO the footprint increase for the Dell is minimal, and the Dell thereby gains an internal 3.5" hard drive. That's quite a plus for a lot of applications.

Either way, for HTPC usage, I still think this Dell has a leg-up on the Mini for the same price point. Apple missed a good opportunity with the latest refresh to do something about it and blew it. I wish that wasn't true because I like Macs a whole lot more than I like PCs.

I agree again, but I also share concerns that others have expressed about power consumption (e.g. 3.5" drive will consume more power than 2.5"), fan noise, etc. We will know soon enough.

chefklc

11-14-09, 07:45 AM

Oh, and it also has an HDMI port which after 5 years (?) is still missing on any Apple product.

What I'm curious about is which configuration or upgrade of the Zino can pass AC-3/DTS 5.1 over HDMI? It isn't clear from reading the specs that this actually is supported by the sound card, and the blurbs say "built in 2.1 high-definition audio." We'll probably know soon enough once some have it in their hands. Sure, I wish Apple would handle audio via miniDP differently, but at least the mini, Apple's least expensive Mac, ships with a built-in optical out, unlike the Zino--and while a growing, but still small, percentage of folks have upgraded to an HDMI-switching AVR, even my parents have an AVR with optical in.

but for an HTPC, Apple has let us all down again

How? Did I miss your critical evaluation of this? Let's recap: miniDP and miniDVI, FW800, the 9400M, optical, gigabit, enough RAM and enough CPU oomph in the base model to handle 1080p...that's what you call being let down?

Either way, for HTPC usage, I still think this Dell has a leg-up on the Mini for the same price point. Apple missed a good opportunity with the latest refresh to do something about it and blew it.

How do you figure they blew it and Apple needed to do something about what, lidrummer? Most of us were thrilled Apple didn't axe the mini. Have you become aware of something that we're not, some deal-breaking deficiency with your new, still very small, still very quiet mini? The base model, especially when available as a $499 refurb, plus some cheap third party RAM, screams great value to most of us, not least of which is because it, uhm, officially supports OS X.

You do realize it costs about the same ($100) to "add" an external blu-ray drive to the mini as it does to upgrade the Zino, some enterprising folks in this forum have even put a BR drive inside their mini. With makeMKV we're now ripping BR natively in OSX, and even the stock base model mini plays back 1080p mkv without stuttering.

Otherwise, it seems for DVR options, especially with cable channels, Windows has more support, especially from tuners and such

And this is a red herring as well wco81--as I just pointed out to you after your previous unsupported comment about this subject--more support and more options doesn't necessarily translate into a better user experience and affordable options are available on other platforms beside Windows. You don't need a Windows/CableCARD solution. Between EyeTV w/ QAM and ATSC, the HD HomeRun, capturing over firewire, and the Hauppauge HD PVR, all with native OS X support, we're doing just fine in the HT as far as "tuners and such."

Would I appreciate an viable OS X solution which, like Windows, allowed me to simply play back the commercial BR disc in my HT computer or slip a tuner inside my Mac? Sure, but that's not happening anytime soon, and it's certainly not enough of an incentive to get me to leave an OS X environment for a larger, presumably louder, Windows box. Though I do hope this Zino succeeds and gains traction, in the hope that Apple will consider adding eSATA and opening up audio over miniDP.

the AMD 3250e can handle anything out there that you throw at it

Well, there's a bigger thread about the Zino over in the HTPC forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1170527&page=6

and someone who works for AMD took a model home to test. From the comments so far, the jury still seems out whether it can handle "anything" thrown at it...might be prudent to wait a bit before ordering for a few more hands-on reports to drift in before boasting about how robust the AMD 3250e is.

IMO the footprint increase for the Dell is minimal, and the Dell thereby gains an internal 3.5" hard drive. That's quite a plus for a lot of applications.

Agreed, I wouldn't notice the volume difference, though with big 7200rpm laptop drive in the mini and Macbooks I've had in my HT, I haven't really noticed being disk-bound...

Phrehdd

11-21-09, 05:27 PM

The Kanex is working well for me...

I wasn't as fortunate as the optical cable connection to the kanex unit was damaged. (wouldn't hold the cable that was supplied).

If I may ask, are you running this through HDMI to the television directly or through a receiver or?? With respect to digital audio, did it successfully pass through AC3 and DTS?

Could you share a bit of details about your experience and what you are doing with your Mac such as Plex or other apps and particular settings and of course any issues.

Hopefully, a few folks like yourself will be able to give real world experience info to others wishing to go this route.

Thanks in advance

- Phrehdd

grubavs

11-21-09, 06:15 PM

I wasn't as fortunate as the optical cable connection to the kanex unit was damaged. (wouldn't hold the cable that was supplied).

If I may ask, are you running this through HDMI to the television directly or through a receiver or?? With respect to digital audio, did it successfully pass through AC3 and DTS?

Could you share a bit of details about your experience and what you are doing with your Mac such as Plex or other apps and particular settings and of course any issues.

Hopefully, a few folks like yourself will be able to give real world experience info to others wishing to go this route.

Thanks in advance

- Phrehdd

I could spare the folks (especially those with much more experience than I) here a repeat of what I've already posted in this and other threads, but they can just skip by:

I'm using a new 2.66GHz mini (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_mini?mco=MTAyNTQzNTk) with the mini display port & digital audio out connected to a Kanex adapter (http://www.kanexlive.com/products/item.aspx?id=3495) -> Accell B104C-003B-40 HDMI (http://www.provantage.com/accell-b104c-003b-40~4ACEL06A.htm) -> HDMI v1.3 + HDCP 3 Ports Mini Switch with External IR Receiver and Remote (http://www.meritline.com/showproduct.aspx?ProductID=33053&SEName=hdmi-v1-3-hdcp-3-ports-mini-switch-with-3-pcs-of-hdmi-cable) -> Accell B104C-003B-40 HDMI -> Onkyo TX-SR805 (http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?class=Receiver&m=TX-SR805) -> Accell B104C-010B-40 (http://www.provantage.com/accell-b104c-010b-40~7ACEL06H.htm) -> Sony KDL-52XBR5 (http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=KDL52XBR5&LOC=3). I do get AC3 and DTS from DVD rips and BD rips. I use MTR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacTheRipper) for DVD rips, and MakeMKV (http://www.makemkv.com/aboutmkv/) for BD rips. I use Apple DVD Player for DVD playback, and Plex (http://www.plexapp.com/) for BD playback. The mini just recognized the Sony, 1080p.

-Plex has a big learning curve (at least for me), but the video is great once you get it going. No subtitles on BDs though.
-Always had problems 802.11n streaming rips from my storage source (Mac Pro 30-feet & two walls away) but tried it on the new mini and it worked! However, after upgrading to 10.6.2, back to the old drop outs when streaming rips.
-No problems with internal HD sources or using an external drive & Firewire 800.
-Sometimes have problems with AV dropouts over gigabit ethernet, to. Not sure why that would be, however.
-Use HD TiVos for OTA TV.

Phrehdd

11-23-09, 01:31 AM

I could spare the folks (especially those with much more experience than I) here a repeat of what I've already posted in this and other threads, but they can just skip by:

I'm using a new 2.66GHz mini (http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/mac_mini?mco=MTAyNTQzNTk) with the mini display port & digital audio out connected to a Kanex adapter (http://www.kanexlive.com/products/item.aspx?id=3495) -> Accell B104C-003B-40 HDMI (http://www.provantage.com/accell-b104c-003b-40~4ACEL06A.htm) -> HDMI v1.3 + HDCP 3 Ports Mini Switch with External IR Receiver and Remote (http://www.meritline.com/showproduct.aspx?ProductID=33053&SEName=hdmi-v1-3-hdcp-3-ports-mini-switch-with-3-pcs-of-hdmi-cable) -> Accell B104C-003B-40 HDMI -> Onkyo TX-SR805 (http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?class=Receiver&m=TX-SR805) -> Accell B104C-010B-40 (http://www.provantage.com/accell-b104c-010b-40~7ACEL06H.htm) -> Sony KDL-52XBR5 (http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=KDL52XBR5&LOC=3). I do get AC3 and DTS from DVD rips and BD rips. I use MTR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacTheRipper) for DVD rips, and MakeMKV (http://www.makemkv.com/aboutmkv/) for BD rips. I use Apple DVD Player for DVD playback, and Plex (http://www.plexapp.com/) for BD playback. The mini just recognized the Sony, 1080p.

-Plex has a big learning curve (at least for me), but the video is great once you get it going. No subtitles on BDs though.
-Always had problems 802.11n streaming rips from my storage source (Mac Pro 30-feet & two walls away) but tried it on the new mini and it worked! However, after upgrading to 10.6.2, back to the old drop outs when streaming rips.
-No problems with internal HD sources or using an external drive & Firewire 800.
-Sometimes have problems with AV dropouts over gigabit ethernet, to. Not sure why that would be, however.
-Use HD TiVos for OTA TV.

Sounds very good what you have going for you. Does your HDTV handle 24p? Do you attempt to get a handshake for this?

I'm still checking out video/digital out to hdmi options and deciding whether to continue with Plex or move forward with XBMC on Linux (has at least 2 direct advantages - exploit the GPU and ability to work closer with res/refresh for 60 to 24 and back).

In my case, I have two Airport Extremes that are in bridge mode and will hook up the mini via cable to one of the AE's for streaming (along with my PS3 and TIVO HD - both of these really do show the benefit of N Draft via this combination of 2 AE's in bridge mode).

- Phrehdd

grubavs

11-23-09, 11:07 AM

Sounds very good what you have going for you. Does your HDTV handle 24p? Do you attempt to get a handshake for this?

I'm still checking out video/digital out to hdmi options and deciding whether to continue with Plex or move forward with XBMC on Linux (has at least 2 direct advantages - exploit the GPU and ability to work closer with res/refresh for 60 to 24 and back).

In my case, I have two Airport Extremes that are in bridge mode and will hook up the mini via cable to one of the AE's for streaming (along with my PS3 and TIVO HD - both of these really do show the benefit of N Draft via this combination of 2 AE's in bridge mode).

- Phrehdd

The Sony has Motionflow™ 120Hz, supposedly no need for 3:2 pulldown with 24fps.

I have the almost exact same Airport setup as you do. My mini is wire-connected to a MB765LL/A, dual-band 1TB Time Capsule (serves as my router - TiVo HD, Oppo, HD-A35 are also connected) and my Mac Pro is wire-connected to an MB763LL/A dual-band Airport Extreme.
As I said, I was surprised to find the new mini had zero problems with accessing DVD and BD content streamed from the Mac Pro on the 802.11n 5GHz band (didn't try the 2.4GHz band), as streaming playback on the older mini would constantly stop-and-start, I assume buffering. I watched several sections of the UP BD rip using streaming and had no stops&starts. That night I started the movie for my wife and I to watch, and stops&starts began immediately with the Disney intro. I connected the Mac Pro to the Time Capsule with Cat 6 ethernet cable, still had the stops&starts, so I switched to watching the BD disc on my Oppo BDP-83. The only difference between my successful previewing of the movie and our unsuccessful viewing was that I updated the mini to OSX 10.6.2 between, so I assumed that was the cause. I have yet to investigate as I still have the alternative I used with the older mini, an external hard drive.
Of note, I have not been able to successfully rip any BD since updating to 10.6.2 either. I have tried ripping BDs that I have previously successfully ripped. No joy!

Phrehdd

11-28-09, 02:04 AM

gswarriorfan

11-30-09, 01:32 PM

Russ Younger

11-30-09, 02:22 PM

I have one of the new mac minis and I stream 1080p files just fine. My setup is.
Mac mini upstairs connected to Samsung RP LED tv.
Airport Extreme running dual band 2.4 and 5.
Media stored on server downstairs with wired gigabit ethernet.
Only one wall seperates the mac mini from the airport extreme (floor)

With this setup I can stream every bluray and dvd I have thrown at it. Netflix and Hulu play back fine. Best of all it only took an hour to set up with Plex and snatch remote for ipod.

gswarriorfan

11-30-09, 05:42 PM

awesome news!

redondoman

12-01-09, 04:07 AM

grubavs and phrehdd,

Are you watching 1080p over wireless n? I want a mac mini to use as a htpc and I can't run an ethernet cable all the way to my entertainment center, so wireless is my only shot. I've heard 1080p over wireless won't work.

I wouldn't say it won't work, just that it might not work. For whatever reason, where I live there is too much radio signal interference to reliably stream video wirelessly. If wireless doesn't work for you consider going Powerline. Did the trick for me:
http://www.linksysbycisco.com/US/en/products/PLK300

grubavs

12-01-09, 01:21 PM

Grubavs, sounds like you are indeed in a similar situation as I am.

Questions if I may ...

What are you using for playback on your Mac Mini for BD content?
If I am understanding correctly, you are not really doing 24p but rather, the pull down to handle it. Is this an automatic process via the Sony based on file type being fed through to it?

For archiving, I have used two routes - Virtual with XP on the Mac and then Any DVD plus a couple of other programs (tsmux and eac3gui). Recently tried MakeMKV which worked nicely and especially so with the Mac version of tsmuxer if I want m2ts files.

I understand that XBMC on Linux can reset the resolution/refresh based on media type. - Meaning it will change to 24p when the film is being played and revert back to native refresh of the TV (that is set) when returning to menu. I have used Plex and set the Mac Mini to 24 (lil process to get that to work but it does). The catch is viewing the Mac main screen or anything else looks terrible while full screen movies look fantastic.
So, maybe I'll end up with Linux XBMC on the Mac Mini. Shame Plex doesnt find this challenge (at this time) worth correcting/fixing.

So far, I am extremely optimistic on the use of the Mac Mini as an HTPC, going wireless for near all media files and enjoying the overall experience.

- Phrehdd

Hi Phrehdd. Sorry about the tardy response...
If I understand your 24p question, as far as I have read/understand, as long as the display frequency is an even multiple of 24 and/or 60 (the selling point for a 120Hz display), nothing needs to be done to when switching source content from film to digital as it will display correctly... So far, my experience agrees with that. I have no difference in PQ for the desktop or a mkv or a vob. I use Plex to play my MKVs.
For the rest of your post, you are way beyond my use of video software. I'm a plug-and-play kind of guy :o and even Plex has almost defeated me! As an example, I tried to use Handbrake yesterday for the first time. I got an error message saying it couldn't locate a 64-bit version of VLC on my hd, did I want to download one? I did, but there apparently is no such thing (that I could find) so I restarted Handbrake and at the error message I picked the "scan anyway" button, which promptly opened VLC's download website in Safari (again, no 64-bit version). Sensing I will need to do further research to determine what's what, I gave up!:o
Currently, I'm reinstalling 10.6.1 in both my mini and my Mac Pro just to see if I can get back to being able to use MakeMKV for BDs & stream any video content with no stuttering.

grubavs

12-01-09, 04:59 PM

--snip--
Currently, I'm reinstalling 10.6.1 in both my mini and my Mac Pro just to see if I can get back to being able to use MakeMKV for BDs & stream any video content with no stuttering.

OK. With 10.6.1, I have full streaming capabilities with no stuttering, and MakeMKV works again. Don't know what's in 10.6.2 that upsets my Airport & Macs, but until I do, it's not being installed on them.

Phrehdd

12-04-09, 02:18 AM

grubavs and phrehdd,

Are you watching 1080p over wireless n? I want a mac mini to use as a htpc and I can't run an ethernet cable all the way to my entertainment center, so wireless is my only shot. I've heard 1080p over wireless won't work.

I do both actually - Mostly Wireless N via the Airport Extremes bridged and, via Cat 6 cable between them as well. A vast majority of my blu ray archived movies play well and ALL of the DVDs and compressed format items play fine.

Later I'll be doing a more reasonable hands on with Mac Mini's own wireless N rather than depend on the Airport Extremes for bridged wireless.

Hope this helps.

As others have mentioned there is the method of going through your electrical lines to carry signals. This works reasonably well when both "sockets" are on the same fuse line. If each socket is associate with a different fuse it is unclear you would be successful.

-Phrehdd

Phrehdd

12-04-09, 02:27 AM

Hi Phrehdd. Sorry about the tardy response...
If I understand your 24p question, as far as I have read/understand, as long as the display frequency is an even multiple of 24 and/or 60 (the selling point for a 120Hz display), nothing needs to be done to when switching source content from film to digital as it will display correctly... So far, my experience agrees with that. I have no difference in PQ for the desktop or a mkv or a vob. I use Plex to play my MKVs.
For the rest of your post, you are way beyond my use of video software. I'm a plug-and-play kind of guy :o and even Plex has almost defeated me! As an example, I tried to use Handbrake yesterday for the first time. I got an error message saying it couldn't locate a 64-bit version of VLC on my hd, did I want to download one? I did, but there apparently is no such thing (that I could find) so I restarted Handbrake and at the error message I picked the "scan anyway" button, which promptly opened VLC's download website in Safari (again, no 64-bit version). Sensing I will need to do further research to determine what's what, I gave up!:o
Currently, I'm reinstalling 10.6.1 in both my mini and my Mac Pro just to see if I can get back to being able to use MakeMKV for BDs & stream any video content with no stuttering.

I admit I am a tad confused. If you pass a movie over at 60hrz you are not going to get 1080 at 24p but at 60p (59.x or 29.x) This is not so much your TV but getting Plex to pass the movie forward at 1080 at 24p. One would need to manually change the resolution. This is possible as I have done it.
Your Sony with 120hrz given a 60hrz or so screen will be doing a pull down of sorts by duplicating most likely each created frame at 60. So, in effect, you already are doing a pull down and doubling each of those frames. If I am incorrect someone please chime in and explain.

If you have a BD player or PS3 it can handshake and know to pipe out at 24p. The Mac has to be told to do it if you are defaulting to 60. If you look at a Mac screen at 24 it will look "flickery" for obvious reasons. XBMC at least on Linux will automatically switch to 24p for blu ray archived material and then switch back to 60 or whatever your setting is automatically. Plex will not best I know do this and is a huge oversight not to correct. It approaches being a determent for me to use Plex with my large screen and let it remain with my "regular" computer systems.

- Phrehdd

stevegt87

12-04-09, 06:30 AM

grubavs

12-04-09, 04:38 PM

My understanding of these high frame rate displays is that they determine what the content frame rate is and duplicate frames where needed. What I'm trying to say is, they detect judder (by removing identical frames) and then duplicate/interpolate frames up to the displays maximum frame rate. Please correct me if i'm wrong.
Steve

Hi Steve. I thought the same thing but it appears there's two different things happening with 120Hz Refresh Rate TVs, according to a 10/25/07 CNET report (http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-6449_7-6792632-1.html). According to them, the 120Hz refresh rate is supposed to "cure" motion blur, and the TV's anti-Judder system is for , ummm, anti-judder:D Oh, and the good news is that it looks like I bought a pretty good TV if I want to get rid of judder ;)

Anyway, Phrehdd, I use Plex as it installs to view my BD rips and they look great, and have no flicker when working on the mini's desktop either.

grubavs

12-04-09, 04:49 PM

Phrehdd

12-06-09, 02:12 AM

and not to beat a dead horse, but there's an interesting discussion at about.com (http://hometheater.about.com/od/televisionbasics/qt/framevsrefresh.htm) about refresh rates. Here's an excerpt:

If you have a TV with a 120hz refresh rate that is 1080p/24 compatible (1920 pixels across the screen vs 1080 pixels down the screen, with a 24 frame per second rate). The TV ends up displaying 24 separate frames every second, but repeats each frame according to the refresh rate of the TV. In the case of 120hz each frame would be displayed 5 times within each 24th of a second.

In other words, even with higher refresh rates, there are still only 24 separate frames displayed every second, but they may need to be displayed multiple times, depending on the refresh rate.

To display 24 frames per second on a TV with a 120hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 5 times every 24th of a second.

To display 24 frames per second on a TV with a 72hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 3 times every 24th of a second.

To display 30 frames per second on a TV with a 60 hz refresh rate, each frame is repeated 2 times every 30th of a second.

To display 25 frames per second on a TV with a 50 hz refresh rate (PAL Countries), each frame is repeated 2 times every 25th of a second.

To display 25 frames per second on a TV with a 100 hz refresh rate (PAL Countries), each frame is repeated 4 times every 25th of a second.

NOTE: The above explanation is with pure frame rates - if the television is also required to do a 24 frame per second to 30 frame per second or vice versa frame rate conversion, then you also have to deal with 3:2 or 2:3 Pulldown as well, which adds more math to the equation. The 3:2 pulldown function can also be performed by a DVD player, or other source device, before the signal reaches the television.

How TVs Handle 1080p/24

If a TV is 1080p/60 or 1080p/30 - only compatible, it would not accept the 1080p/24 input. Currently, only Blu-ray Discs and HD-DVD discs are the main sources of 1080p/24 material. However, most Blu-ray Disc and HD-DVD players convert the outgoing signal to either 1080p/60 or 1080i/30 so that the information can be processed by a TV properly for screen display if it is not compatible with 1080p/24.

So, in my case, I have decided to allow my Oppo BDP-83 to pass 1080p/24 material directly to my Sony.

You information rings true. Here is the situation - Plex will inherently play at the screen resolution/refresh set which usually defaults to 60. So for a 24p you are doing as you pointed out a pulldown 3/2 (2:3).- If you take that and play it at 120, you will still be playing with pulldown. The only way to get real 24p is to play at 24p. The next best thing is to set Plex for 24p and your* TV as you have to 120.

For me, I my HDTV plays true 24p. The two challenges with Plex are -
1) If I set the Mac Mini to 1080@24p, then regular menus and OSX screens look terrible (flickery) and 24p movies play ideal.

2) Plex presently doesn't offer a way to automate all this so that menus and the like remain at normal values and only 24p movies will force the signal change for 24p and then after movie play, back to 60 (as example). XBMC I believe will do this (at least the Linux build and I would venture Windows as well).

For PS3, 24p is fed and the TV sees it and engages it no problems no questions asked so to speak.

- Phrehdd

stevegt87

12-06-09, 08:58 AM

Phrehdd, what TV do you have? What does your TV say about judder control?

Anyone here have experience with Panasonic P58S1?

Steve

stevegt87

12-06-09, 07:32 PM

I did a little searching and the panny PXXS1 plasmas display 24p content @60hz. I love my mac mini, but the search for the perfect mini connected TV continues. Sometimes I think it is better not to know.

Phrehdd

12-09-09, 03:09 AM

Phrehdd, what TV do you have? What does your TV say about judder control?

Anyone here have experience with Panasonic P58S1?

Steve

Hi Steve,

I am using a Pioneer Kuro 5010 Plasma.

I guess the only point I am making is that to get the advantage of 120 (as in the Sony example), you need to send 24p information at 24p. Sony then does a very high processed job of outputting that video.

When you provide info at 60, and play at 120, the 60 is doubled and 60 (for a 24p movie) is a pulldown. Bottom line at 120, you are just playing a "smoother" pulldown of 2:3.

This is one guy who admits to being a bit flustered over all the "work arounds" on a very nice Mac Mini, a front end like Plex (with some really great work done) and yet, Plex overlooks a basic component of hi def movie playback -> 24p. I guess some folks are ok with 50/60 or bouncing it up to 120 and enjoy the video processing.

More and more LCD's are going the way of 120, 240 and so on. All multiples of 24. Plex should play DVD material at the appropriate level and then switch to 24p for hi def files that support it. Until this flaw is recognized by the great team at Plex, they leave me no choice but to go to XBMC. - This does really bother me as I prefer OSX as it is obviously easy, friendly and I can run other apps as well on it.

Btw, the Sony's that run 120, look fantastic when playing blu ray discs from a player. This is where they absolutely shine. We can all look forward to 2010 having LED LCD and 120/240 screens being more common place.

- Phrehdd

PS - before I forget, Pioneer has a "movie mode' called "Pure Cinema" that pretty much eliminates judder. 3:3 cadence if I remember correctly.

Russ Younger

12-09-09, 02:42 PM

I might be mistaken but wouldn't the problem with 24p playback be due to ffmpeg rather than Plex?

Phrehdd

12-10-09, 01:21 AM

I might be mistaken but wouldn't the problem with 24p playback be due to ffmpeg rather than Plex?

Hi Russ,

Fair question. I'll try to be clear (running on fumes with lack of sleep so keep that in mind <grin>).

Plex CAN do 24p. However, if you check your iMac or immediate computer screen you will see it is most likely set at 60 or so. This means that Plex will play 24p but your video will play the material at 60. The key is to get a screen that plays 24p or multiples of 24 (such as 120).

I have gotten XBMC (same guts as Plex) to play 24p to my plasma set at 24p. Looks great. The problem arises that I had to manually set this all up. There is no automation based on file type.

So we have a screen dependency to worry about and an application savvy enough to send out true 24p (not 60 or whatever else). The challenge then remains that you play a movie at 24p and after that you return to the Plex menu. The screen (in my case plasma) is still doing 24p which will look flckery. OSX Desktop will look flickery as well.

XBMC on linux can and does handle 24p and switch back.

One of the challenges is "EDID." The Mac wants to know what the output should be based on the monitor and set accordingly. The plasma or other should be able to see the signal and play back at the right resolution/refresh.

EDID is the "extended display identification data" that your computer/video chip needs to send the right information.

What I had to do to get mine working (and yes there certainly are better ways I am sure) is to turn on my computer and plasma screen, make sure the plasma is set to handle 24p then i set the plasma to "PC" mode. From here the mac was able to recognize the refresh rate and show 24p. I then set it to 24p and promptly put the Mac to sleep. After this, i went back to the plasma and reset it to "move mode" (pure cinema) for 24p playback. It worked like a charm until the movie was over. Then the nasty flickery stuff.
The application wasnt able to reset to 60 (59.xxx).

You can see the challenge here with having 23.xxx, 29.xxx and 59.xxx media. I did however for fun take a DVD that I archived and redo it with MKV then TSMuxer and got it to play at 24p. Sometimes it worked great and sometimes it was horribly out of synch with the audio. That's another story unto itself. Btw the 24p version of the DVD was turned into M2TS format.

Hope this was helpful. If anyone has a better or more clear answer (or correct me if I am wrong) please do chime in.

Cheers

- Phrehdd