For ultimate black level, color fidelity, and dynamic image, which one to choose: Panasonic AE4000, Epson 8500, or Sony VW70?

I need to choose soon.....

(any other suggestions welcome)

How soon is soon? Two of those are not even out yet.

I take it that your budget is under 3K USD.
(what ever that relates to in the North)

Not only are 2 of them not out, but no one has really played with them so it is near impossible to know for sure. What is the reason for being pressured?

This is then the perfect time to make a recommendation. Many posters here making recommendations do so without having viewed some of the projectors one lists. They read specs, extract material from somebody elses reviews regardless of the reviews or reviewers quality, and toss in their own prejudices. The recommendations often given here depend on what the poster bought. BUY THE ONE I BOUGHT. Validate my choice.

Based on history the Epson will be the best value and have the best pic.

For ultimate black level, color fidelity, and dynamic image, which one to choose: Panasonic AE4000, Epson 8500, or Sony VW70?

I need to choose soon.....

(any other suggestions welcome)

At this point is just speculation but base on history and first review I believed...

Best black level = Epson
Color fidelity = Panny and Epson
Image dynamic = Epson

Eric

How soon is soon? Two of those are not even out yet.

I take it that your budget is under 3K USD.
(what ever that relates to in the North)

My basement is being framed, and I need to decide on the screen size, and subsequently the right projector within a week. The room is approx. 18' x 13'5". I'm thinking of being greedy, and going for a 120" screen. My projector budget is approx. cdn $5000.

This is then the perfect time to make a recommendation. Many posters here making recommendations do so without having viewed some of the projectors one lists. They read specs, extract material from somebody elses reviews regardless of the reviews or reviewers quality, and toss in their own prejudices. The recommendations often given here depend on what the poster bought. BUY THE ONE I BOUGHT. Validate my choice.

Knowing 2 are not out yet (but I assume somewhat similar to last years models), I thought as you outlined above.

At this point is just speculation but base on history and first review I believed...

Best black level = Epson
Color fidelity = Panny and Epson
Image dynamic = Epson

Eric

Thanks. Anyone familiar with the Sony? I have a the rear projection
KDS R70XBR2, and the picture is great. If I could secure a projector that delivered a similar image, that would be it.

Screen size really should matter in regards to those 3 projectors. They are all roughly the same brightness when setup properly (Sony is a tad dimmer, but for the size you want it still should be fine).

I would get the SXRD as opposed to LCD.

I would get the SXRD as opposed to LCD.

Please explain why

Generally SXRD is a superior technology (for a myriad of reasons), but not sure that overall the Panny/Epson won't be on par since they are brand new. Only time will tell.

Generally SXRD is a superior technology (for a myriad of reasons), but not sure that overall the Panny/Epson won't be on par since they are brand new. Only time will tell.

Thanks Jason, I saw from the 'screen' forum that you appear to know something about them. I'm looking for 120" drop down screen. The basement room will have some ambient light, and the color of the walls will not be dark. I truly like deep blacks. Should I go with a grey screen or white, and what min gain? I've heard the Stewart screens are good, but the Grandview are half the price.

For ultimate black level, color fidelity, and dynamic image, which one to choose: Panasonic AE4000, Epson 8500, or Sony VW70?...I suspect that the VW70 would still have the superior PQ. You can compare TJN reviews of the VW70 and last year's AE3000 and Epson 6500UB here:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/frontprojectors/#

Thanks Jason, I saw from the 'screen' forum that you appear to know something about them. I'm looking for 120" drop down screen. The basement room will have some ambient light, and the color of the walls will not be dark. I truly like deep blacks. Should I go with a grey screen or white, and what min gain? I've heard the Stewart screens are good, but the Grandview are half the price.

Generally gray = better black levels. Adding in the fact that you have ambient light and light colored walls, I would tend to agree a gray is in order. You mention gain, but with grays there aren't really options. In Stewart's case, the Firehawk G3 is best and it is fixed at 1.25 gain. It is about as good as you can get, but expensive for sure. Another alternative is Dalite who makes an HCCV and HCMW (both 1.1 gain gray). The first requires a tensioned model, the latter does not (and thus is much less expensive).

Generally gray = better black levels. Adding in the fact that you have ambient light and light colored walls, I would tend to agree a gray is in order. You mention gain, but with grays there aren't really options. In Stewart's case, the Firehawk G3 is best and it is fixed at 1.25 gain. It is about as good as you can get, but expensive for sure. Another alternative is Dalite who makes an HCCV and HCMW (both 1.1 gain gray). The first requires a tensioned model, the latter does not (and thus is much less expensive).

Thanks again. You've been a great help with my learning curve. I was told that too much gain may result in a 'shinny' appearance, and that 1.1 gain was the 'sweet' spot for most.

I suspect that the VW70 would still have the superior PQ. You can compare TJN reviews of the VW70 and last year's AE3000 and Epson 6500UB here:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/frontprojectors/#

Thanks for the links. Assuming the new models (AE4000 & 8500UB) will be priced at the same level as last years models, I'm leaning towards one of those over the VW70 due to the price being almost double:
VPLVW70 cdn $6999
PTAE3000 cdn $3999
6500UB cdn $3449

Prices are from manufactures web sites.

The PTAE4000 should be much cheaper than last year, although in Canada it seems there is some kind of issue that may cause it to be higher.

Thanks for the links. Assuming the new models (AE4000 & 8500UB) will be priced at the same level as last years models, I'm leaning towards one of those over the VW70 due to the price being almost double:
VPLVW70 cdn $6999
PTAE3000 cdn $3999
6500UB cdn $3449

Prices are from manufactures web sites.

Consider the LCD Sanyo Z3000. It's $3295 in Cnd, has a 3 year warranty, 5:5 pulldown, and comes with a replacement bulb.

Thanks again. You've been a great help with my learning curve. I was told that too much gain may result in a 'shinny' appearance, and that 1.1 gain was the 'sweet' spot for most.

Depends. Better quality fabrics don't have as much chance of shimmer/sheen to them. The cheaper ones it is more common. There are other factors that can come into play such as throw ratio, projector model, etc... No hard and fast way to know for sure if there will be any such anomalies.

although in Canada it seems there is some kind of issue .

Yeah l think the issue is that it is Canada :D

Seriously though there are a few Canadians in another thread discussing shipping it to UPS offices near the border and picking them up. I would suggest you guys all do a power-buy and get them at the same time. You can still split the shipments to different UPS offices....

...I'm leaning towards one of those over the VW70 due to the price being almost double:...You did not mention price as a factor in your original post :).

The Sony HW15 is the model that competes at that price point.

Check here for reviews:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/

You did not mention price as a factor in your original post :).

The Sony HW15 is the model that competes at that price point.

Check here for reviews:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/

Originally I was considering paying up to the VW70 level, but after much review of post in different threads, It would appear you don't get that much improvement over the lower priced Epson and Panasonic for the extra Sony $. In addition, since I expect my room will not be pitch black, I'm leaning towards a brighter unit like the Epson 9500, which I hope turns out to be brighter than the 6500, yet still has excellent blacks.

Originally I was considering paying up to the VW70 level, but after much review of post in different threads, It would appear you don't get that much improvement over the lower priced Epson and Panasonic for the extra Sony $. In addition, since I expect my room will not be pitch black, I'm leaning towards a brighter unit like the Epson 9500, which I hope turns out to be brighter than the 6500, yet still has excellent blacks.

One thing to note, especially in the case of LCD's, is the manufacturers are often spec hungry. They tend to exaggerate. For instance, the Epson 6500/1080UB/8500/etc... are rated at 1600 lumens. Realistically when setup correctly, they are no where near that (in fact the RS15 from JVC, which is rated at 1000 lumens, is actually brighter since that is a true rating).

Just be careful is all when you see specs.

I wouldn't say they are exaggerating much at all Jason. They can easily achieve 1600-1700 lumens, but the color accuracy does suffer. For some, this isn't as big of a deal as it is to others. Just think how many people keep thier flat panels in torch mode since the day they bought it. ...or those who just want to watch sports with their projectors. I can calibrate the Dynamic mode to look good for sports, and have an extremely bright picture if you want the lights up a little for a football party for instance.

Having an Epson 1080UB, I'm thrilled to have the dynamic bright modes, even if the color isn't perfect. Why? My bulb is 1600 hours old or so, and it's just too dim for my taste in my fully calibrated modes now. I've calibrated the dynamic mode so that it's suitable to me, and I still have a very bright image after all those hours on the bulb. Art, over at projectorreviews.com, measured the Epson 9500UB/8500UB at 1718 in wide angle in Vivid(dynamic mode) and 649 lumens in best calibrated mode. 649 lumens in best calibrated mode for a sub $3000 projector is bright IMO.

Most of us here on this board are anal about color accuracy though, and you are correct that the Lumens drop substantially once you calibrate for D65 grayscale and REC.709 colorspace.

Just throwing that out there. Your point is valid, but just wanted to say that there are HUGE advantages with having the cabability for such bright modes.

Dan

i didn't even realize you could buy a vw70 in canada....i thought they reserved that turd for the states :D

okay it's not really a turd but i am just mad that they gave the rest of the world a vw80 and we got stuck with the 70. it's still a good machine but it is overpriced.

I wouldn't say they are exaggerating much at all Jason. They can easily achieve 1600-1700 lumens, but the color accuracy does suffer. For some, this isn't as big of a deal as it is to others. Just think how many people keep thier flat panels in torch mode since the day they bought it. ...or those who just want to watch sports with their projectors. I can calibrate the Dynamic mode to look good for sports, and have an extremely bright picture if you want the lights up a little for a football party for instance.

Having an Epson 1080UB, I'm thrilled to have the dynamic bright modes, even if the color isn't perfect. Why? My bulb is 1600 hours old or so, and it's just too dim for my taste in my fully calibrated modes now. I've calibrated the dynamic mode so that it's suitable to me, and I still have a very bright image after all those hours on the bulb. Art, over at projectorreviews.com, measured the Epson 9500UB/8500UB at 1718 in wide angle in Vivid(dynamic mode) and 649 lumens in best calibrated mode. 649 lumens in best calibrated mode for a sub $3000 projector is bright IMO.

Most of us here on this board are anal about color accuracy though, and you are correct that the Lumens drop substantially once you calibrate for D65 grayscale and REC.709 colorspace.

Just throwing that out there. Your point is valid, but just wanted to say that there are HUGE advantages with having the cabability for such bright modes.

Dan

Right...1718 at dynamic mode which isn't the way 99% of sources are watched. Going along those lines, JVC RS15's are rated at 1000 lumens, but that is calibrated. If I were to setup similar settings to the Epson, the rating would be SUBSTANTIALLY higher on the JVC as well. My point is that LCD manufacturers tend to rate MAX levels , even though the majority of sources wouldn't want to be watched that way. That is all I am saying...not really apples to apples comparisons.

I do applaud JVC for reporting numbers that are in "best calibrated mode". All manufacturers should do so.

I just wanted it to be clear that the Epson's are easily capable of hitting the very bright 1700 lumen mark. ...and I wouldn't be so quick to say that 99% of what people watch is not in Dynamic mode. For reasons explained above, 100% of my watching is now in Dynamic mode until I get a new bulb. Of coarse the same can be said of the JVC in it's bright modes, but I don't think they ever reach 1700+ lumens no matter what you do.

The JVC RS-15 is an excellent projector that should be thrown in this mix as well, especially when the VW-70 has been mentioned.

Dan

One of the reasons I bought my Mitsu 6800 is the extra brightness I get in the "best" mode (Cinema). Not only is the 6800 about 20% brighter than the 4000, but I also am at the extreme range of the zoom capabilities and the 6800 only looses about 15% of maximum brightness, where the 4000 looses about 35% (This is all according to ProjectorCentral ;))

I do applaud JVC for reporting numbers that are in "best calibrated mode". All manufacturers should do so.

I just wanted it to be clear that the Epson's are easily capable of hitting the very bright 1700 lumen mark. ...and I wouldn't be so quick to say that 99% of what people watch is not in Dynamic mode. For reasons explained above, 100% of my watching is now in Dynamic mode until I get a new bulb. Of coarse the same can be said of the JVC in it's bright modes, but I don't think they ever reach 1700+ lumens no matter what you do.

The JVC RS-15 is an excellent projector that should be thrown in this mix as well, especially when the VW-70 has been mentioned.

Dan

Note that I am not for/or against any manufacturer. I actually sell a ton of Epson and JVC for instance. The point is that one cannot compare projectors between companies based on published specs alone. If they did, the Epson would appear brighter/better contrast than a JVC (using our examples)...which if setup identically is not the case. This is just a warning for people to take note of is all.

...I just wanted it to be clear that the Epson's are easily capable of hitting the very bright 1700 lumen mark...Isn't this like sayin an amplifier can do 400 watts per channel without specifying the frequency response and THD. Once the response (20Hz to 20KHz ) and THD of < 1% is speced we only have a 90 WPC amp. :D

\ . ... The point is that one cannot compare projectors between companies based on published specs alone..

Completely agree. Thats why I find forums such as this very helpful.

Completely agree. Thats why I find forums such as this very helpful.

Indeed! :)

Isn't this like sayin an amplifier can do 400 watts per channel without specifying the frequency response and THD. Once the response (20Hz to 20KHz ) and THD of < 1% is speced we only have a 90 WPC amp. :D

:) Sort of, but in this instance, the picture is actually useful. Still has excellent sharpness, gamma, with moderate greyscale and can be calibrated for accurate colors except for the green primary, which gets skewed to more of a lime green.

It's better than people would think. Just reads Art's summary of Dynamic mode on the 8500UB/9500UB over at projectorreviews.com ...dynamic mode is not perfect, but useful. (especially for things like sports or video games were color accuracy may play second hand to a dynamic bright image)

I think I've beaten this one to death, so I'll leave in peace...

Dan

I typically like the projector that hasnt come out yet because you cant say anything bad about it:)

Originally Posted by CaspianM http://images.avsforum.com/avs-images/black/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17392991#post17392991)
I would get the SXRD as opposed to LCD.

Please explain whyFill factor.

LCD 60% or below
LCoS 90% or above

Because LCD is transmissive, the light has to pass through the circuits that connect the LCD elements. LCoS is reflective, so this isn't a problem.

Originally Posted by CaspianM http://images.avsforum.com/avs-images/black/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17392991#post17392991)
I would get the SXRD as opposed to LCD.

Fill factor.

LCD 60% or below
LCoS 90% or above

Because LCD is transmissive, the light has to pass through the circuits that connect the LCD elements. LCoS is reflective, so this isn't a problem.

Sorry for my ignorance, but what is "fill factor"?

If you think of a pixel as a rectangle, side-by-side with other pixels, a 90% fill factor means that 90% of the actual surface area of the pixel "space" is active;
another way to look at it is that the larger the fill factor, the smaller the "frame" is around the picture itself.

BTW: I have both an SXRD 55" HDTV and my new Mitsubishi HC6800 LCD projector in my HT. I'm not sure if fill factor is really relevant any more, especially when SDE is concerned.

Also, I'm not sure I agree with the <60% fill factor for LCD. I spent several minutes with my nose to the screen the other day trying to fine-tune the focus on my 6800. The fill factor for the D7 LCD pixels seemed to be closer to 80%, but obviously that's a guess on my part.

If you think of a pixel as a rectangle, side-by-side with other pixels, a 90% fill factor means that 90% of the actual surface area of the pixel "space" is active;
another way to look at it is that the larger the fill factor, the smaller the "frame" is around the picture itself.

BTW: I have both an SXRD 55" HDTV and my new Misubishi HC6800 LCD projector in my HT. I'm not sure if fill factor is really relevant any more, especially when SDE is concerned.

Then you're saying less of the actual pixel material is sent to the screen from a LCD.
I have the Sony SXRD 70" RP, and it is truly superior to the Sony Lcd 60" RP I also have.

Yep. That is one way of thinking about it.

However, I can tell you that the new variety of LCD televisions and projectors have a performance many times better than even 5 years ago. Although as a purist I still prefer plasma, LCD displays have come a long way in the past few years.

I guess what I am saying is that I don't agree that SXRD will be intrinsically better than LCD. There are many factors involved.

Essentially higher the fill factor, less space between pixels. LCOS based (SXRD/DILA) are the highest, then DLP then LCD. However as resolution increases it tends to be less of an issue because they get smaller and smaller.

The exception with LCD is Panasonic because they have "Smoothscreen Technology" that is designed to get around this issue.

The exception with LCD is Panasonic because they have "Smoothscreen Technology" that is designed to get around this issue.

I thought boiling it down to 3 would make it a bit easier to decide, but every time I think I've made up my mind (Epson 9500), there are other issue to consider. Well at least we have what appears to be several good choices.

Smoothscreen is actually a feature (for a lack of better word) that reveals that there is still problem with LCD in fill factor even with 1080 resolution. It is a filter that smears the pixel structure. While with 1080 is SDE is harder to see vs 720 it is still there and can be preceived in certain situations specially if you go from Lcos or DLP.
If you are getting the ae400 SDE is not an issue but the effect of smoothscreen is a debateble issue.

:)
.... Art's summary of Dynamic mode on the 8500UB/9500UB over at projectorreviews.com ....

Dan

Also read the review, and although I know not exactly how they would look live, I'm concerned that the 9500UB pictures (specifically the ones of Eastwood drinking a beer) had a greenish tint. I'm not a fan of this. I prefer a bluer image. Once again, more to be considered.

Smoothscreen is actually a feature (for a lack of better word) that reveals that there is still problem with LCD in fill factor even with 1080 resolution. It is a filter that smears the pixel structure. While with 1080 is SDE is harder to see vs 720 it is still there and can be preceived in certain situations specially if you go from Lcos or DLP.
If you are getting the ae400 SDE is not an issue but the effect of smoothscreen is a debateble issue.

You can see SDE from viewing distances on 1080p LCD pjs?

I assume from your comments that you own LCoS or DLP then?

I've owned all 3 and fill factor is a non-issue. Every technology has its strengths and weakness, but all the new PJ's throw fantastic pictures.

Art

Also read the review, and although I know not exactly how they would look live, I'm concerned that the 9500UB pictures (specifically the ones of Eastwood drinking a beer) had a greenish tint. I'm not a fan of this. I prefer a bluer image. Once again, more to be considered.

That's a factor of how they calibrated the projector. The Epson's can be calibrated spot on since they have a full color management system. Not only can you adjust the greyscale, and custom gamma, but you can adjust the saturation, hue, and brightness for each color (red, green, blue, cyan, yellow and magenta). I don't see Art posting the recommended color, saturation and hue for each color so I'm not sure he messes with those settings. That could be why you are seeing a greenish tint.

I think the Epson's are the only ones that have been listed so far to have this ability. In other words, if you like it more blue, you have COMPLETE control to do so. Not to say the other projectors are sub par, it's just that most of them only allow greyscale and some gamma control, and not a full color management system like the Epsons.

Dan

That's a factor of how they calibrated the projector. The Epson's can be calibrated spot on since they have a full color management system. Not only can you adjust the greyscale, and custom gamma, but you can adjust the saturation, hue, and brightness for each color (red, green, blue, cyan, yellow and magenta). I don't see Art posting the recommended color, saturation and hue for each color so I'm not sure he messes with those settings. That could be why you are seeing a greenish tint.

I think the Epson's are the only ones that have been listed so far to have this ability. In other words, if you like it more blue, you have COMPLETE control to do so. Not to say the other projectors are sub par, it's just that most of them only allow greyscale and some gamma control, and not a full color management system like the Epsons.

Dan

The JVC's have a full CMS as well ((RS20/25 and up...which actually is easier to do than the Epson). Other than that though, you'd really need an outboard video processor if you want CMS controls.

Translation. If your projector doesn`t have a CMS and you want those functions, you need an external video processor THAT HAS A CMS. Most don`t or have only an approximation of one.

Thanks Mark...I corrected to make it clear.

Smoothscreen is actually a feature (for a lack of better word) that reveals that there is still problem with LCD in fill factor even with 1080 resolution. It is a filter that smears the pixel structure. While with 1080 is SDE is harder to see vs 720 it is still there and can be preceived in certain situations specially if you go from Lcos or DLP.
If you are getting the ae400 SDE is not an issue but the effect of smoothscreen is a debateble issue.

Can Smothscreen by turned on/off?

The JVC's have a full CMS as well ((RS20/25 and up...which actually is easier to do than the Epson). Other than that though, you'd really need an outboard video processor if you want CMS controls.

Aren't those JVC's outside the price range under discussion?

Can Smothscreen by turned on/off?Think of SmoothScreen like an element in the projector lens. It can't just be turned off.

--Darin

No, Smoothscreen cant be turned off. We have been asking Panasonic for that every year now and they alway say no. In the early days, it kind of made the image softer, but these days, I dont think it make much of a difference

The JVC's have a full CMS as well ((RS20/25 and up...which actually is easier to do than the Epson). Other than that though, you'd really need an outboard video processor if you want CMS controls.

Yes, the RS20 and RS25 do have a full CMS, and I would gladly take either one of those projectors over my Epson if price were no consideration, whether I had the 1080UB like I have now, or the 9500UB coming out.

The firmware fix for the CMS control on the JVC RS20 fixed any issues it had, and it truly is a magnificent projector. The JVC RS20 CMS now works even better than the Epson 6500UB/7500UB.

To make my point though, the only JVC that had been mentioned so far in this post had been the RS15 that you mentioned, and that is what I was referring to, which doesn't have the CMS.


Aren't those JVC's outside the price range under discussion?

Well, when you look at the $6999 of the Sony VW70, then you are getting around the street price of the RS20's. But it really is apples to oranges, since either the Sony or JVC(except the RS15) are more than double the price of the Epson or Panny.

The original three projector choices covered a pretty wide swath of prices.

Dan

That's a factor of how they calibrated the projector. The Epson's can be calibrated spot on since they have a full color management system. Not only can you adjust the greyscale, and custom gamma, but you can adjust the saturation, hue, and brightness for each color (red, green, blue, cyan, yellow and magenta). I don't see Art posting the recommended color, saturation and hue for each color so I'm not sure he messes with those settings. That could be why you are seeing a greenish tint.

I think the Epson's are the only ones that have been listed so far to have this ability. In other words, if you like it more blue, you have COMPLETE control to do so. Not to say the other projectors are sub par, it's just that most of them only allow greyscale and some gamma control, and not a full color management system like the Epsons.

Dan

Thanks to all again. I'm pleased to learn that the Epson has a CMS. As for the price mentioned in a post later, I picked the 3 because I had read good things about the Epson & Panasonic, and I own a Sony RP SXRD that is great. If the VW70 would have been the fan favourite hands down, then I would have to consider paying the price. As for the forum this thread is in, I believe the fact that I am considering the VW70 or it's replacement in Canada the VW85, puts it in the usd 3000+.

Think of SmoothScreen like an element in the projector lens. It can't just be turned off.

--Darin

Bingo. Personally, it bothers me (I have owned 3 Panny's to date). I could just never get it the way I liked. Others, however, love it...very personal preference. Overall I don't think it is a deal breaker either way.

Yes, the RS20 and RS25 do have a full CMS, and I would gladly take either one of those projectors over my Epson if price were no consideration, whether I had the 1080UB like I have now, or the 9500UB coming out.

The firmware fix for the CMS control on the JVC RS20 fixed any issues it had, and it truly is a magnificent projector. The JVC RS20 CMS now works even better than the Epson 6500UB/7500UB.

To make my point though, the only JVC that had been mentioned so far in this post had been the RS15 that you mentioned, and that is what I was referring to, which doesn't have the CMS.

Well, when you look at the $6999 of the Sony VW70, then you are getting around the street price of the RS20's. But it really is apples to oranges, since either the Sony or JVC(except the RS15) are more than double the price of the Epson or Panny.

The original three projector choices covered a pretty wide swath of prices.

Dan


I only pointed it out because we were even clearing out RS20's for low $4k range, bringing them within a smaller range. If one searches they might still find similar deals.