I've posted this same item in the local TWC/LA thread (but it also be appropriate for the LA-OTA thread). But since it is specifically a problem dealing with recording to DVHS (and firewire connection from DVR to DVHS VCR) I though I'd also give it some national exposure here, just in case anybody has a similar experience somewhere else and might be able to shed some light.

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I'm not sure where the source of this problem lies, so I'll start from the beginning. I'm planning on doing some further permutations and research to gather more clues and evidence, but for now here's the story. TWC/LA.

(1) DCX3400 DVR acquired on September 8, replacing my previous DCH3416. I've never had a problem archiving from DVR to DVHS (at least with DCT6412 and DCH3416), but then I've actually never used the DCX3400 to try that until now. So this is the very first time I've tried to copy something from DCX3400 to JVC 40K DVHS VCR.

As it turns out, the very last successful archive from DVR to DVHS was back on Sept 3, when I copied several segments from SYTYCD on KTTV-DT (interestingly enough) to DVHS, when I still had my DCH3416. No issues at all.

(2) Recently, local KTTV-DT changed their bug in the lower-right corner of the screen. From almost transparent previously it is now almost solid white. I only bring this up because this has occurred only recently, certainly sometime at or just after the start of the new Fall TV season.

I also bring this up as a possible clue, because they may have also made some other technical changes in their digital broadcast stream along with changing their bug, which might just be responsible for my current problem.

In other words, as recently as September 3 (using a DCH3416) I had no trouble archiving a KTTV-DT recording from DVR to DVHS. And now, for two consecutive weeks, I have been unable to do that using my DCX3400 connected to the very same JVC 40K... FOR ANY PROGRAM ON KTTV-DT (not just SYTYCD)!!!

(3) I have a firewire connection between the DCX3400 and my JVC 40K DVHS VCR. The VCR is usually tuned to some other input, but last week I "tuned it" to I-1, my firewire source from the DVR. I actually wanted to dub some segments from last weeks' SYTYCD episode to DVHS.

Well, with the VCR tuned to I-1 and powered on all kinds of havoc broke loose when I was either (a) tuned to KTTV-DT (411) on the DVR, or (b) watching a recording that had been made from a show on KTTV-DT, like SYTYCD.

Total digital picture breakup, audio "echoes" as if multiple channels were providing signal, picture dropouts, audio dropouts or disappearance, green screen, etc. 100% unwatchable... either live KTTV-DT or recorded KTTV-DT.

Same unwatchable picture and audio whether I'm monitoring the DVR output (both HDMI and component video) or monitoring the VCR (component video).

As soon as I powered off the VCR (and tuned to another channel and then came back to KTTV-DT, just to stabilize things) everything was now fine... both on live KTTV-DT and recorded KTTV-DT. Perfect picture and sound.

(4) I've tried disconnecting all HDMI cables and running only component video, but to no avail. I've tried eliminating my Yamaha receiver and going straight from DVR to HDTV. Makes no difference.

Seems to be 100% that it's something about the KTTV-DT digital broadcast stream that is unhappy when an outboard DVHS VCR (5C-compliant, mind you) is connected by firewire and powered on. Power off the VCR (but leave it still tuned to I-1), no problem. Power on the VCR, problem. Disconnect the firewire, no problem. Only with KTTV-DT. Does not happen on any other channel.

Kind of like they did something intentional to make archiving from DVR to DVHS impossible... like Macrovision or some equivalent in the digital age.

(5) I've double-checked lots of other channels, 720p and 1080i, OTA and cable and premium... and NO other channel makes this happen. I can watch all other channels live or recorded, through DVR or VCR, with the VCR tuned to I-1 and powered on... and 100% perfect.

I have no problems with the VCR on and tuned to I-1 with the DVR tuned to any other channel, which kind of exonerates the DCX3400 itself (unless there's a new copy-protect feature imbedded in it which KTTV-DT is secretly activating and using).

It's only when watching KTTV-DT provided content that they seem to be somehow digitally scrambling things so that the presence of an active outboard firewire-connected recorder device tuned to I-1 which triggers this apparent copy-protection result.

I've even checked different programs on KTTV-DT (e.g. the World Series game, right now), and see the same symptom with all of them. It's not just SYTYCD, it's everything on that channel... it's now just impossible to watch KTTV-DT live or recorded when the VCR is connected by firewire to the DCX3400 and tuned to I-1 and powered on.

(6) I have a second DVHS VCR (JVC DT100U) which has a built-in ATSC tuner. And since OTA channels are "copy always", there's no reason why I can't make a recording of KTTV-DT programs on that VCR.

I'm going to do that, and then bring that second VCR to the first VCR and connect them, and see if I can copy from DVHS1 to DVHS2 successfully, or whether I see the identical artifacts which for lack of a better term I'm going to call "KTTV-DT inserted digital copy-protection, which is not 5C-compliant HDCP". I'm just gathering evidence right now, and this seems like a good data point for comparison.

(7) At first I suspected the DCX3400, but my various trials so farnow suggest that it is specifically something recently done to KTTV-DT's digital stream which is at fault here. I see the symptom with NO OTHER CHANNEL, OTA, basic cable, tier cable, or premium. Only with KTTV-DT... and based on my Sept 2 success using a DCH3416 and KTTV-DT, it seems like either (a) something new in the DCX3400 which I now own, or (b) something new from KTTV-DT in their datastream since Sept 2.

My very last recording of something from KTTV-DT was the "Top 15 of All Time" episode of SYTYCD, back on Sept 2. I recorded that on my old DCH3416 and archived segments over to DVHS without a problem. Of course I don't think they'd updated their bug yet, so they just might not also have activated this "digital copy-protection" yet either.

Anyway, for now I'm bothered, because I was unable to archive any part of both last week's and this week's episodes of SYTYCD6.

There is a remote chance, very long shot I suppose, that something new now going on in the KTTV-DT datastream (e.g. sub-channels or something) is actually causing a problem on the JVC 40K (which is many years old, of course), and this is "backing up" to impact the firewire-connected DVR. It might have been exposed or aggravated by the new DCX3400 (22.37), or it might just be from whatever KTTV-DT is now doing.

Whatever the cause, the contributing factors must have come into my life after Sept 2.


So... anybody else notice this? Am I alone? DVHS users, if you still have a DCH3416 or DCT64xx box, can you try an experiment for me just to see if it's some interaction of KTTV-DT and the DCX3400 which is responsible?

So, any DVHS owners who have a DVR of any kind... please record some prime time show on KTTV-DT and see if you can copy it to DVHS. Or, even simpler just power your VCR on and tune it to I-1, and then tune your DVR to 411, and see if you have any problem (which might take a short time to develop). Then try to PLAY your KTTV-DT recording, and see if anything horrible happens.

I'm trying to figure out if it's tied to the DCX3400 and KTTV-DT, or just 100% entirely something that KTTV-DT's done lately.

Any input from TWC/DVR/DVHS and OTA/DVHS owners in LA will be much appreciated. Or, even elsewhere in the country for that matter. Maybe this KTTV-DT story here in LA is actually the tip of the iceberg.

Many thanks.

Wow quite the tale. A couple thoughts off the top of my head:

-You seem to be right, it's probably not the DCX if you can successfully record other channels off it.
-The only other "flag" could be the broadcast flag I guess. Motorola hardware honors it and passes it along from what I have read. But I thought that was supposed to be a specific thing on a per program basis.
-It's probably not Comcast, so long as the channel is "copy free", 5c=0 then I doubt the fault is with Comcast, they just pass along the signal that is fed to them. Can you tell for sure if it's copy free? I have an older DLP set that actually has firewire inputs on it, and when you switch over to them it tells you in plain english "copy free" or "Copy-One generation" if the signal that is coming in is protected or not. Although you don't get onscreen menus by design, I can hook up my 3416 DVR to the TV via firewire.
-For something like this, I'd go straight to KTTV's engineering department. If the people there are cool then they'd probably be willing to get into technical discussions with you about any recent changes they have made.

I don't record onto DVHS anymore, but I capture to PC using CapDVHS and firewire. It seems every new box/firmware further cripples the firewire capability. I have an older firmware now, but it makes the picture freeze up while recording, so I have to time how long I want to capture. But the capture is perfect, so long as you start recording with the playback paused, then immediatly start it. If you don't do this you get no audio. Live playback still works flawlessly, this only occurs with non-live and shows played from the DVR. Our 5c flags are very lax here in Philly, some grips from TiVO users a couple years back made Comcast turn off 5c for all non-premium channels(HD included). Or at least that's what I heard.

To confirm, you have no problem recording it from an OTA source, it's just firewire out on your DCX STB from TWC, correct? If that's the case, and absolutely no other channels are causing the problem, then it's either KTTV delivering a somehow flawed transport stream to TWC, or TWC has misconfigured the channel. Contact TWC and KTTV Engineering, as there's no way to tell where the problem lies. KTTV will probably just ignore you and tell you to call TWC, though.

Since the OTA source records properly I'd wager it's not the broadcast flag (which isn't supposed to be activated anyway). It could just be a garden variety Motorola device bug, too. I've encountered some wacky behavior of these boxes, especially in regards to copy protection. It appears to be very poorly implemented.

To confirm, you have no problem recording it from an OTA source, it's just firewire out on your DCX STB from TWC, correct?Thanks for your interest.

I'm just getting started with all of my evidence gathering, to try and determine exactly where the issue may be coming from. The "problem DVHS VCR" is a JVC 40K, which does not have its own built-in ATSC tuner. So I can't really use that box to see if recording KTTV-DT directly OTA (using my roof antenna) is problem-free. But I suspect it is.

However I do have a second DVHS VCR, a JVC DT100U. And this second box DOES have a built-in ATSC tuner. So I can record something OTA from KTTV-DT (and I know that works) and then connect it via firewire to the JVC 40K, just as I have my DCX3400 connected to the JVC 40K via firewire.

If I see none of the current audio/video breakup anomalies with a DVHS1->DVHS2 arrangement, but only with the DCX3400->DVHS2, then it's seemingly something about the TWC providing of KTTV-DT.


If that's the case, and absolutely no other channels are causing the problem, then it's either KTTV delivering a somehow flawed transport stream to TWC, or TWC has misconfigured the channel.Agreed. And no other channels cause a problem... either watching them live or previously recorded on the DVR, no matter 720p or 1080i, no matter monitoring via DVR->HDTV or via DVHS->HDTV, no matter OTA/cable/premium channel, no matter HDMI as the video path (through receiver or directly to the HDTV) or component video cables.

Only KTTV-DT, via TWC/DCX3400. Hopefully by later tonight I will have more info regarding my use of the DT100U as an alternative "firewire source" to the 40K for KTTV-DT programming, to see if the problem disappears. If so, then it's some kind of a TWC/DCX3400/KTTV-DT problem, rather than a true standalone KTTV-DT problem.


Contact TWC and KTTV Engineering, as there's no way to tell where the problem lies. KTTV will probably just ignore you and tell you to call TWC, though.I've got two calls in to different people at KTTV engineering, but no response yet. I'm holding off trying to contact TWC engineering until I run my DT100U/40K experiments.


Since the OTA source records properly I'd wager it's not the broadcast flag (which isn't supposed to be activated anyway).Correct. And as I said earlier, as of September 2 I had no problem watching or recording or copying KTTV-DT programming to my 40K.

Of course back then it was (a) September 2 and not the past two weeks and something may have changed at KTTV-DT in the interim, and (b) I was using a DCH3416 instead of a DCX3400... for what that's worth.


It could just be a garden variety Motorola device bug, too. I've encountered some wacky behavior of these boxes, especially in regards to copy protection. It appears to be very poorly implemented.I've never seen this kind of "feedback" artifact, kind of like two channels simultaneously fighting over each other to be seen and heard.

There's delays of audio from "the two sources", echoes of audio, absence of audio (when the digital decoder apparently just can't make sense out the audio stream), video breakup as happens when you're just on the marginal signal strength level with an OTA channel, etc. but it's more likely that there's no coherence in the complex MPEG stream(s?) trying to be decoded, etc.

Just doesn't make sense, why only KTTV-DT's data stream could somehow bring out this artifact, triggering something in the DCX3400 software.

Anyway, I need to do more isolation experimenting using my second DVHS VCR, to get a better localization on what's causing this strange symptom.

I've never seen this kind of "feedback" artifact, kind of like two channels simultaneously fighting over each other to be seen and heard.

There's delays of audio from "the two sources", echoes of audio, absence of audio (when the digital decoder apparently just can't make sense out the audio stream), video breakup as happens when you're just on the marginal signal strength level with an OTA channel, etc. but it's more likely that there's no coherence in the complex MPEG stream(s?) trying to be decoded, etc.

Just doesn't make sense, why only KTTV-DT's data stream could somehow bring out this artifact, triggering something in the DCX3400 software.


My two theories:

1.)Either TWC or KTTV is delivering a transport stream that's valid enough for your DCX box's decoder, but not for your D-VHS VTRs' MPEG-2 decoders. I've had similar things happen transiently, but never for as long as you've had, and not as severe. Given that the DCX boxes have newer codec chips, it's not unreasonable to think that they might be more fault tolerant than the ones in the JVCs.

2.)The DCX is mangling the IEEE1394 output somehow. Given that it only happens on one channel, this is highly improbable.

I've had other, similar problems with my Mot STB, though they were directly related to the copy protection refusing to handshake with my VTR, not a signal problem. But because the channel's not encrypted, that shouldn't come into play at all.

This is quite weird indeed. It's quite unfortunate that all parties involved in this truly useful and great equipment didn't see fit to write adequate documentation about any of it.

I hate to say it but you might have to call TWC about it, after your test with the 40K and DT100U.

1.)Either TWC or KTTV is delivering a transport stream that's valid enough for your DCX box's decoder, but not for your D-VHS VTRs' MPEG-2 decoders.Well unless something's changed at KTTV-DT since September 2, I'd give a thumbs down to this possible explanation.

I have been using my 40K to copy segments of SYTYCD from DVR (DCH3416) to DVHS for several years now, and the show is presented by KTTV-DT and always has. And as recently as the September 2 snippet to DHVS, it recorded properly and plays back perfectly.

A little while ago I used TSReader Lite to look at the KTTV-DT stream. It's actually a pretty high bitrate (about 14.5Mbps), and KTTV-DT does not even have any sub-channels... so it can't even be something like a conflict of sub-channels somehow being mishandled. Just one PID. I mean there's nothing wrong with it.

Again, the really interesting symptom is that when the VCR is powered off the playback of KTTV-DT from DVR to HDTV is fine. But if I power on the VCR and have it tuned to I-1, the firewire data stream sent from DVR to VCR and resulting 5C-handshake activity would seem to be putting either VCR and/or DVR into a "very busy CPU loop" negotiating or something but not completing. So both boxes' CPU's simply cannot keep up with the job of completing the 5C-negotiating while at the same time providing all of the stream's inherent audio/video data to the HDMI and optical outputs.

Of course I'm just guessing as to the 5C-handshake being the problem here, but it's not clear why only KTTV-DT's stream triggers this symptom. No problem from any other channel.

I've seen DVHS VCR's "lock up" and fail to negotiate, putting either their own CPU or the connected DVR into a serious loop where neither box replies to commands. Only solution is to pull the power cords from the wall, let both boxes re-boot, etc. Sometimes I've even had to reset the JLIP/firewire ID numbers on the DVHS VCR, starting from scratch and letting the two devices talk to each other for the first time again.

And I've actually tried all of these steps for the current symptom. But nothing's fixed it. And it's only when watching/playing KTTV-DT content when the VCR is powered on an streaming firewire data from the DVR.

Sure seems like a DCX3400 issue (though still inexplicable), as I can't imagine what KTTV-DT could possibly have done... out of 1,000 channels.

Well, the plot thickens.

I happened to be near my set tonight at around 11:30PM, and decided just to do a little exploring... to double-confirm that I could not watch KTTV-DT when my DVHS VCR was powered on and tuned to I-1.

So first I tuned to 409, turned the VCR on, and noticed no problem. Then I changed to 410, still no problem. Then I changed to 411... still no problem. HUH? On to 412 and 413, no problem, back to 411, no problem. HUH?

Well, 11:30 is not prime time, and what was being presented was "TMZ". And in the lower-right 4:3 corner was this ENORMOUS 2-line white bug: "FOX 11" on the top line, and "myfoxla.com" on the second line. This is definitely locally provided content, with a locally provided logo, for non-HD 4:3 content. This is not the same bug that gets inserted, for example, on SYTYCD which airs in prime time.

And yet no digital breakup problem watching at 11:30PM, monitoring either via DVR->HDTV or DVHS->HDTV. I checked the bitrate using TSReader, and it's still about 15Mbps. There's just no problem right now.

So, I know I had trouble with SYTYCD two weeks in a row. This is national prime time programming, with a "KTTV-DT" logo in the lower-right 16:9 area, and I could not watch the recorded show when I had my VCR turned on and tuned to I-1. As I mentioned earlier, this is a new version of the "KTTV-DT" logo, which is nearly solid white. It recently replaced the previous nearly transparent one which had been in use for a long time. (I'm going to check my September 2 recording of SYTYCD, to see what logo was in use back then)

I also had the same trouble yesterday with the World Series Game 1, which again is national FOX programming in prime time (I don't think there was any logo at all in the lower right, because there was the special scorebar and MLB/FOX items in the upper left and right of the 4:3 area).

So on Friday I'm going to do a little more data gathering, investigating what happens in the late afternoon, early evening local news shows, and then national evening prime time network programming (which will not be the World Series). I will keep track of the logos, the programs, whether or not I have my firewire-related issue of total digital breakup, and at what time of the evening the problem starts and what time of the evening the problem stops (assuming this is going to be true tomorrow night).

So you have a DCX3400, JVC 40L and 100 DVHS decks.
From your comments I gather you have these connections:
1. Cable->DCX-> 40K DVHS
2. OTA-> JVC 100 DVHS
You have also tried:
3. JVC 40k -> JVC 100
(1) Does Not work on this particular channel.
(2) Does work
(3) Presumably works?
Have you tried:
4. Cable->DCX->JVC 100?
If (2) works, but (1) does not then it is a cable provider problem with them either tinkering with the supplied ts, or a malformed feed from the local. Regardless it is a cable problem. The paranoid cable companies like to use these access controls, so it would not suprise me a bit if they flipped the switch on this channel. Good luck getting them to fix it or even admit it though.
I have seen the redistribution flag set in TSR on my CBS local but not in a year or 2.

Finally if you have:
(5) Cable-DCX->PC-> JVC 40k/100 the PC in between may cause problems if copy protection bits are set, but they shouldnt be on a broadcast local.

Does your TV have a built in QAM tuner (clear/cablecard) which you can use to bypass the DCX and DVHS decks and see if the TV tuner will decode the cable stream in question?

Well... it now seems that it has NOTHING to do with KTTV-DT, although the evidence seemed to point to that explanation.

The problem is more fundamental: DCX3400 firewire interface is junk! It actually fails to support archiving from DVR to DVHS for EVERY CHANNEL!

Simply does not work. The datastream fed from DVR to VCR is flawed, or doesn't keep up with the required bitrate, or is corrupt or has an extraordinarily high error rate. Whatever the true story, every test DVHS recording I made (either from live DVR or previously recorded content) will not play back properly. Actually, the digital breakup which occurs during the attempted recording suggests very strongly that the tape recording will be worthless... and it is.

As it turns out, the two episodes of SYTYCD from the past two weeks were the only recordings I'd actually tried to copy to DVHS since acquiring the DCX3400 back on September 8. Since they were both from KTTV-DT, and since my experiments were focused on KTTV-DT, I thought it was somehow tied to KTTV-DT.

Well, this theory was incorrect. It is simply that the DCX3400 is "broken" with respect to this archive-to-DVHS via firewire functionality. It starts when the VCR is loaded with a tape and prepared to record, goes away when the VCR is powered off, and occurs on every channel when the REC button is pushed on the VCR and streaming really begins.

Workarounds to get things back to normal (e.g. powering the VCR off) seem to work, but instability will return quite easily... and for some reason definitely seems to especially vulnerable to FOX national programming in prime time.

But even at other time periods on FOX, and for other channels, it simply is impossible to copy from DVR to DVHS via firewire and produce a flawless recording. In fact, the recording is so damaged that the MPEG decoders on the VCR go so out of whack (e.g. maybe losing audio or video entirely) that sometimes it's necessary to pull the power cord from the wall in order to re-load the firmware, to get things back to normal.

Totally defective.

Unfortunately, I currently have about 20 hours of recordings that I need to watch through over the next few days (since I can't offload them to DVHS), because I'm going to return the DCX3400 and go back to a DCH3416.

As much as I want "native" and as much as I want a 320GB hard drive, inoperative archiving to DVHS is a deal-breaker for me. The DCH3416 worked perfectly in this regard, and I'm going to revert to it. Maybe if the DCX3400 eventually gets this problem fixed I will go back to it, but for now I require 100% functionality for firewire operations and the DCX3400 is fatally flawed.

Unfortunately, I wish I could also get back the old silver remote I traded in for the new black remote when I got the DCX3400. I was more comfortable with that older remote. Oh well.

Thanks for the info, I was about to switch to the DCX3400 series for a large drive, guess I will keep the 6412 for a little longer. Not being able to use firewire is a big problem, hope it gets fixed.

Mike T

Thanks for the info, I was about to switch to the DCX3400 series for a large drive, guess I will keep the 6412 for a little longer. Not being able to use firewire is a big problem, hope it gets fixed.

Mike T

Sorry for chiming in late, I work for a cable company, I also happen to be an HD freak and I record many programs to DVHS. When I first got my deck I had it connected to a Scientific Atlanta DVR and everything worked fine for some time. Then it stopped. What happened in my case was, for that particular box, they set the software to RECORD ONCE. Since its a DVR, the local recording is the once. I then only used my non-dvr for HD recordings. Since then, I have not been able to get the SciATL to record but the new Sammy DVR I have had success with.