Hi all

My trusty old Electrohome Marquee 8500 3 eyed monster has fallen ill.

I am considering finally moving over to digital. It used to be claimed the lower end digitals could never compete on picture quality. Sure at the time you drop 10-20K and get something right up there, but why when you pick up a CRT like mine for less than 2K.

Well many years have past and it only makes sense for me to evaluate where our LCD / DLP cousins have evolved to.

In the past I have brought home the company projector for shits and giggles and loved it's brightness, excelent geometry, and easy set up. But I just couldn't watch a movie on it due to SDE, poor color reproduction and contrast ratio. Now this was a business projector so it's not a fair comparison and it did a fine job with power point.

Now I am reading the threads on the new Panny AE4K and the Ebson 8500ub sporting 100,000 to 1 and 200,000 to 1 contrast ratios with supposedly very good color. plus the Panny has somehow eliminated the SDE.

So I guess my big question is for you CRT converts are you happy you made the switch? What do you miss if anything from your analog days?

No store is going to have one of these things properly configured and up in running in the correct environment for me to judge for myself. I will be buying blind from one our supported vendors here.

I hope some of you that have made the analog to digital transition can offer up a little advice on what to expect. I can always invest a weekend to replace the tube on the Marquee. But my instinct is telling me the digitals have come a long way.

Oh if it helps I mostly use the projector for blue ray movies, HD football, and some HD tv series such as Dexter or Sons of Anarchy. I do not game at all.

Thanks in advance.

Jay

I had a NEC PG9+ for a few years that I loved, I also was not willing to put up with SDE that I saw on every LCD and DLP PJ I had seen. I was able to demo a new Panasonic pta500 a few (5) years back in my theater against my NEC. The NEC of course blew it away with black level and over all cinema look but over all the panny was sharper, brighter, quieter, no SDE and easy set up with no 109 point convergence!
I made the change and have not wanted to go back to a CRt again! The new 1080p PJ's I'm sure have amazing picture quality over the 720p's LCD's I have had and for around $2000 I'm sure you would be more then happy except for the 2-4000 hr bulb life these units give!

My switch was from a 1031q so I'm not sure if mine is a fair comparison. I decided to do some fungus cleaning on the green tube and when I put the 1031q back together it didn't work:( Instead of pouring more money into it, I decided to check out the digital projectors. I ended up getting an Optoma HD20 priced matched at Best Buy for less than a grand. I love it!! SDE is not an issue unless you watch from 1 foot in front of the screen. The picture is vibrant and sharp compared to my outdated CRT. No more convergence drift. No bulky behemoth hanging off the back wall of the living room. Blu Rays are absolutely amazing in 1080p! The Coraline Blu Ray finally gave me that picture window effect I have always heard about with HD but I had never seen! There is a bit of noise in dark scenes of certain movies but not everyone notices this. I wanted to get the Panny AE4000 but it was out of my current price range.
Before the 1031q I used a Barco Data 600. I've been a low end CRT enthusiast for 9 years; now I'm a low end DLP guy:) I can't wait to build my outdoor screen for this thing!
BTW: I am still using my 1.5 gain Da-Lite screen with no issues other than the occasional sparkle (nothing distracting)

What part of Ma?

Black levels and contrast still isn't close.



Not near as smooth and film like either...




I'm thinking about putting a cheapo optima in my bedroom for videogames and watching tv in bed, or maybe a digital in the living room, but my main movie watching will still be CRT. They just can't compete.

I had a NEC PG9+ for a few years that I loved, I also was not willing to put up with SDE that I saw on every LCD and DLP PJ I had seen. I was able to demo a new Panasonic pta500 a few (5) years back in my theater against my NEC. The NEC of course blew it away with black level and over all cinema look but over all the panny was sharper, brighter, quieter, no SDE and easy set up with no 109 point convergence!
I made the change and have not wanted to go back to a CRt again! The new 1080p PJ's I'm sure have amazing picture quality over the 720p's LCD's I have had and for around $2000 I'm sure you would be more then happy except for the 2-4000 hr bulb life these units give!


The NEC PG9+ is on par with my Marquee 8500. So it's a good comparison. From what I am reading the AE4000 is throwing an image that is vastly improved and is holding its own against projectors 3 to 5 times its cost. I am caustiously optimistic.

I really like the film like quality of CRT an I am sure that there will be some trade off. But wrestling with a 240 lb monster hanging from a 9 ft ceiling every year and half to fix it is getting old.

Plus I never got the geometry quite perfect and the red tube had a focus issue I never resolved. I was the only one that could see these things but the always bothered me. The trade offs might be in the positive for the AE4000.

Jay

My switch was from a 1031q so I'm not sure if mine is a fair comparison. I decided to do some fungus cleaning on the green tube and when I put the 1031q back together it didn't work:( Instead of pouring more money into it, I decided to check out the digital projectors. I ended up getting an Optoma HD20 priced matched at Best Buy for less than a grand. I love it!! SDE is not an issue unless you watch from 1 foot in front of the screen. The picture is vibrant and sharp compared to my outdated CRT. No more convergence drift. No bulky behemoth hanging off the back wall of the living room. Blu Rays are absolutely amazing in 1080p! The Coraline Blu Ray finally gave me that picture window effect I have always heard about with HD but I had never seen! There is a bit of noise in dark scenes of certain movies but not everyone notices this. I wanted to get the Panny AE4000 but it was out of my current price range.
Before the 1031q I used a Barco Data 600. I've been a low end CRT enthusiast for 9 years; now I'm a low end DLP guy:) I can't wait to build my outdoor screen for this thing!
BTW: I am still using my 1.5 gain Da-Lite screen with no issues other than the occasional sparkle (nothing distracting)

I have had a crt on the ceiling for the last 12 - 13 years. My first was Mitsubishi data grade running 480P with a line doubler. Man has technology come a long way since then.

I have running blueray at 780P on the Marqueue for a while now using an HDFury2 HDMI to RGB converter. It tends to get confused when I swtich back to the HD cable box and I have to unplug and replug in the hdmi cable to get it to sync. Another anoyance that would go away switching over.

What part of Ma?

I am in Tewksbury, a little bit of a hike from Westfield :)

Black levels and contrast still isn't close.



Not near as smooth and film like either...




I'm thinking about putting a cheapo optima in my bedroom for videogames and watching tv in bed, or maybe a digital in the living room, but my main movie watching will still be CRT. They just can't compete.



Are you sure they haven't finally got the blacks pretty close with AE4000 or the soon to be released Ebson 8500? The Ebson it claiming 200,000:1 which is pretty impressive even if it is done with auto iris tricks. The couple of screenshots posted in the AU4000 thread looked pretty good in the black department.

I am not saying they have really matched or surpassed crt yet, but I thinking they may have finally got close enough at a price point that the trade off of a little contrast is dwarfed by the things gained. Perfect geometry, easy set up, day time viewing, built in wave form monitor, 3 HDMI ports, CIH, quiet fan, no convergence drift, among others.

Well, I have owned two CRTs. An ECP4500+ and an NEC 6PG. I did custom gamma curves, so I was getting prolly above 1,000,000:1 on/off contrast. Actually, infinite if I calibrated for a complete blackout.

My first projector was an Infocus X1. It thrilled me at the time, but then I wanted superior blacks/contrast. I got an ECp4500+ and it annihilated the X1. Even had WAY better colors. After gamma correction it blew my mind. Then I added an Infocus 4805. It was a big step up from the X1, but a downgrade overall from my CRT. It had superior brightness which I liked and a much better black level than the X1, but it still paled in comparison to the CRT in that regard and left me wanting something more.

Then I got an NEC 6PG, which was great. Finally I got a Sharp DT-500. It's only rated 4000:1 contrast (twice the rating of my 4805), but that is native contrast. No iris tricks. It's the first digital I have owned that has satisfied me to the point where I wasn't obsessing over getting another CRT. lol. The blacks in the darkest scenes aren't nearly as dark as CRT is capable of, but they are convincing enough that I don't feel I need better right now. In a large majority of dark scene black looks black and in the lower contrast dark scenes it's "dark enough". The great shadow detail really helps. The colors are great, it's a nice smooth picture. It's very sharp and and bright. I love it.

Sometimes in the darkest of scenes I will miss my CRT a bit, but nothing like when I had an X1 or 4805 when I would really want CRT desperately (especially the X1) when dark scenes would come up. The X1 was weak with dark scenes, The 4805 was pretty good with most dark scenes, the DT-500 is very good-great with dark scenes and my CRTs were outstanding with dark scenes.

I got mine for only $760 and it has been a great projector. Great bang for my buck! I'm not sure I could live with any of these auto iris projectors claiming 100,000 & 200,000. I don't know if the new projectors have gotten rid of this or if it's possible to get rid of using an auto iris, but if you have a halfway decent eye you can see the auto iris adjust on some units. Maybe that has diminished to a point where it's not a problem, but I doubt it.

Are you sure they haven't finally got the blacks pretty close with AE4000 or the soon to be released Ebson 8500? The Ebson it claiming 200,000:1 which is pretty impressive even if it is done with auto iris tricks. The couple of screenshots posted in the AU4000 thread looked pretty good in the black department.

I am not saying they have really matched or surpassed crt yet, but I thinking they may have finally got close enough at a price point that the trade off of a little contrast is dwarfed by the things gained. Perfect geometry, easy set up, day time viewing, built in wave form monitor, 3 HDMI ports, CIH, quiet fan, no convergence drift, among others.

Not to say the projector's black levels aren't great, but for the record (and I'm into filmmaking/photography and do advanced color grading for digital video, so I know what I'm talking about here. hehe), you really should never judge black level or contrast from screenshots ever. I could take a 500:1 projector and blacks would look black with a screenshot.

Cameras instantly darken the black level in dark scenes when you expose for anything but the darks and even then it dramatically darkens them, because the sensors aren't as sensitive to low light as the human eyes. Cameras don't have near the dynamic range of the human eye, so they take more contrasty pictures of screenshots unless you intentionally miscalibrate your image so the camera will see it the way the human eyes do.

Had Barco 708S and then a Barco 1209. Both were great, the 1209 had incredible contrast and depth. But the maintenance, noise, and heat were always a pain. Then there's always that slight fear that a 200 lb. behemoth would come crashing down on my head, even though the entire ceiling was reinforced with unistrut and steel cable and the ceiling mount was made of steel pipe. And when my wife came into the theater to watch a movie and saw me adjusting convergence "again" she would walk away in disappointment.

I moved on to an Optoma HD70 and currently an Epson 1080 LCD and 2.40 screen w/ anamorphic lens. I've never enjoyed actually watching movies more. The contrast can't compare but focus is sharp always corner to corner and hassle free. I highly recommend the cinemascope and anamorphic lens set up if you're into movies, its the only way to go.

Now I am reading the threads on the new Panny AE4K and the Ebson 8500ub sporting 100,000 to 1 and 200,000 to 1 contrast ratios with supposedly very good color. plus the Panny has somehow eliminated the SDE.As far as CR, I consider my AE4000 to be about a 5000:1 on/off CR projector and that is with the DI enabled (about 2000:1 otherwise). The tricks they do just so they can claim 100,000:1 actually make the projector worse than if Dynamic mode had a normal 3x or so multiplier IMO. I like the projector, but please don't be fooled that it has on/off CR even in the same league as a CRT just because Panasonic decided to implement a mode where if it sits on a black screen long enough it will keep closing an iris down until it gets to a very low black level after about a dozen seconds or so (and look horrible in doing it on at least my AE4000 since the black screen then has very bad uniformity). I wish my AE4000 didn't have this crazy DI multiplier as the only option other than DI off in Dynamic mode so I could use Dynamic with the DI enabled with good algorithms instead of algorithms that are basically just so they can put a high number on a spec sheet. As it is now if I want to use Dynamic mode my DI choices are only off and crazy. Or something like that. In other modes I can choose between off and what I consider good DI algorithms.

Not that I use the projector in Dynamic mode a lot, but for showing movies outdoors on a 15.5' wide screen I would probably use that mode and would have liked the option for a good DI implementation even in that mode.

As far as how you would like a projector like this or one of the JVCs versus a CRT, you likely need to see them with your own eyes to decide given that different people are sensitive to different things.

--Darin

Hey all,

I think some clairty is starting to shine through.

1) It is always down to personal taste.
2) Those who have adopted early and have upgraded digitals over the years have really begun to appreciate the advances that start to offset the CRT advantages.
3) Me not being familier with viewing the contrast tricks, I really need to see this in action. Quickly switching from a bright scene to a dark one and having to watch 5 or 10 seconds of a transision to get to good black might make me nuts. In a quickly back and forth scene between light and dark you could wind up with exactly the opposite of what is needed for each
4) Many of us old CRT guys can adapt over to digital realizing that it is different, some things better, some worse. Some of us would rather keep up the hastle of CRT than trade off the image we are use to seeing. Not sure which I am yet.


So keep the insight comming.

Right now there is a latter in my family room with a half torn apart projector (running) on the ceiling. Earlier I had came about one click away from pulling the trigger on the AE4000, had my delivery and CC info tyoed in.

So far I have, to my surprize, I managed to get back most of my image quality by resetting cables and boards and messing with G2 levels. But I can't quite get white balance correct. Then there is the red tube focus issue I have been living with for too long.

If my daughter wasn't going in for braces tomorrow there would probably be a ae4000 on the way! But now I am having second thoughts on this iris transition effect. I need to see it I guess.

Thanks for all of your input. Keep the discussion going!

Jay

please don't be fooled that it has on/off CR even in the same league as a CRT just because Panasonic decided to implement a mode where if it sits on a black screen long enough it will keep closing an iris down until it gets to a very low black level after about a dozen seconds or so (and look horrible in doing it on at least my AE4000 since the black screen then has very bad uniformity). I wish my AE4000 didn't have this crazy DI multiplier as the only option

--Darin

Darin thanks for this post as it really help me understand how they get the rating and how it really effects the viewer expriance. I really need to find a venue to see this first hand.

Jay

Jay,

You have a top notch calibrator in your area that is an expert with CRT projectors. It might be worth giving him a call. PM me if you want his info.

If you don't mind the drive I'll have the new Epson when it comes out.

Bob

With a properly calibrated LC CRT like Sony g70 with gamma in a bat cave even the best digital is not even close or 40% of a CRT in low key n dark scene. Ask any professional CRT die hard n u wil know what I mean. Peak white catch light in low key is not even close too. I have seen n calibrated a jvc rs20 , cinemax , g70

I have a gamma corrected Sony G90 and an Epson 7500 (vivid mode with two external filters) in the same room and I am constantly shocked by the image quality of the 7500! In fact, more often than not, I'll use the 7500 since the image is sharper, bigger (second screen for the 7500), and has better corner to corner focus. The Sony does full fade to black, which is very impressive, and the image with HD looks extremely good, but now I use it mostly for science fiction films. The Epson has frame interpolation so all animated and concert films are reproduced with it. The "blacks" on the Epson are very good and without a side by side comparison with the G90 most (including myself most of the time) would be happy with what the Epson can do in this area. Another big plus for the Epson is that I can move it to a second HT (where I have a Marquee 8500 LC) and set it up in a matter of minutes. Knowing what I know now I wouldn't buy another CRT and what I have now will become part of my Estate. Given the performance and price of digital I'll probably own many more just to satisfy the "equipment junkie" in me. My advice - go digital. You can trust me (I'm a lawyer). :D

but I thinking they may have finally got close enough at a price point that the trade off of a little contrast is dwarfed by the things gained. Perfect geometry, easy set up, day time viewing, built in wave form monitor, 3 HDMI ports, CIH, quiet fan, no convergence drift, among others.


True...



Will i get a digital soon, yes... probably for the living room, and this 1999 price point is very attractive for what you get.


At the same time, i love my crt, and it was only $250 lol. Great for the man-cave, not so hot for the living room.

Seems like there are lots of mixed thoughts on this. I really need to see some of these digitals in action to get a real feal for them.

to make a fair comparison, lower the digital projector's peak white 100IRE to a level similar to the CRT and you start to see all it's weakness. No doubt digital has an impressive brightness which all love and crave and it's this high output which makes the intra dark scene looks black. But do you watch at such a high brightness in a bat cave? I too own both a digital and CRT and love the digital for what it does but until the day when it finally can achieve what a CRT does in low key and black scene, i will still stay with CRT for film material and digital for bright scene in documentary or high definition home video.

to make a fair comparison, lower the digital projector's peak white 100IRE to a level similar to the CRT and you start to see all it's weakness. No doubt digital has an impressive brightness which all love and crave and it's this high output which makes the intra dark scene looks black. But do you watch at such a high brightness in a bat cave? I too own both a digital and CRT and love the digital for what it does but until the day when it finally can achieve what a CRT does in low key and black scene, i will still stay with CRT for film material and digital for bright scene in documentary or high definition home video.

oh by the way, i am not bashing digital as i love it for what it does over crt, uniform brightness, corner to corner sharpness etc but i only find the weakness still lies in the lower 40IRE and below scene where's it's dynamic range is severely limited. There are some digital which cheats on low key scene by cutting off certain low IREs which is totally wrong. Put your hand over a digital on a blackout scene and you see hand puppets distinctly but not with a CRT. Which is why i still own a CRT. I think many have not seen what a proper CRT can do and it's better not to see if you can't accept the truth over digital.

to make a fair comparison, lower the digital projector's peak white 100IRE to a level similar to the CRT and you start to see all it's weakness. No doubt digital has an impressive brightness which all love and crave and it's this high output which makes the intra dark scene looks black. But do you watch at such a high brightness in a bat cave? I too own both a digital and CRT and love the digital for what it does but until the day when it finally can achieve what a CRT does in low key and black scene, i will still stay with CRT for film material and digital for bright scene in documentary or high definition home video.

oh by the way, i am not bashing digital as i love it for what it does over crt, uniform brightness, corner to corner sharpness etc but i only find the weakness still lies in the lower 40IRE and below scene where's it's dynamic range is severely limited. There are some digital which cheats on low key scene by cutting off certain low IREs which is totally wrong. Put your hand over a digital on a blackout scene and you see hand puppets distinctly but not with a CRT. Which is why i still own a CRT. I think many have not seen what a proper CRT can do and it's better not to see if you can't accept the truth over digital.

Tanwn1

You obviously have a fairly good understanding of the video engineering side of this. Just for background information in my younger days I was a professionally employed videographer and video engineer. This was probably 25 years ago.

My first introduction to CRT projection was when I worked as a VJ back in the mid 80's at a fancy nightclub that would attract celebrities and such. We would sync Paula Abdul, Janet Jackson, and Wang Chung videos to the disk jockey's extended version of the song. Then when extended parts of the song kicked in we would switch the video over to a live 3 tube Ikagami camera that was on the dance floor and type funny little comments about the on camera subjects. Some highlights were character generating "pencil neck geek" under Evander Holifield while he was getting his grove on, he laughed. Then there was this guy who had a huge gauze bandage wrapped all around his head. I guess he just had plugs installed. We displayed "Into Bandage and Humiliation" under him and his girlfriend / wife thought the poor cameraman was responsible and she blindsided him so hard it causing him to nearly hit the floor lol.


So CRT has been in my blood a long time and I have been preaching the black level thing from the point the digitals first emerged. I know blocking light can not compare to turning off the light source, which is the advantage of CRT. But sometimes we may want to consider giving up on our 12" LP Albums and embrace the MP3 or tube amp for 7.1 surround sound.


Your lucky that you have the best of both worlds and can enjoy the right technology for the job. My projector is in the family room. The thought of looking up and finding two radically different projectors up there is ugly. Maybe in a bat cave, but not in the main family area.

So I have to choose:

A) Keep the Marquee 8500 and get it healthy again, only 5000 hours on the Blue, 2000 on the green, and about 1000 on the red tube.
B) Replace it with a digital, if so which technology/brand/model.
C) Upgrade it with another CRT like a Marquee 9500.


Plus I need to consider the PIA factor of CRT. This was once fun, now not so much. Digitals are for the most part point and shoot.

Looks like I have an opportunity to see an Epson 8500u in action in a proper environment when it is released so that will help a lot.

Thanks and keep it coming....
Jay

The diff bet 12'Lp, tube amp, digital camera n film has reached a point where I would also favor digital (there is not much or hardly any impt gap). But CRT advantage(low IRE dynamic range) is stil miles ahead n has not bridge the gap yet ESP in a proper setup bat cave. By the way u need at least an 8" or 9" liquid couple CRT. If u reduce digital sharpness to true neutrality do u know that CRT can resolve finer details? Not many agree as they have not seen or understood

i had a sony1031 with a couple of ampros and my last one was a sony1271q when it died i went with a 4805(which i still have with 2100hrs on my first bulb) and a sanyo lcd pj . the switch from crt to digital was easier than i thought and am a happy camper.the days of tweaking for hours are over , its nice to plug and play rather than having your convergeance going haywire halfway through the program you are watching.:)

Well, I have owned two CRTs. An ECP4500+ and an NEC 6PG. I did custom gamma curves, so I was getting prolly above 1,000,000:1 on/off contrast. Actually, infinite if I calibrated for a complete blackout.

My first projector was an Infocus X1. It thrilled me at the time, but then I wanted superior blacks/contrast. I got an ECp4500+ and it annihilated the X1. Even had WAY better colors. After gamma correction it blew my mind. Then I added an Infocus 4805. It was a big step up from the X1, but a downgrade overall from my CRT. It had superior brightness which I liked and a much better black level than the X1, but it still paled in comparison to the CRT in that regard and left me wanting something more.

Then I got an NEC 6PG, which was great. Finally I got a Sharp DT-500. It's only rated 4000:1 contrast (twice the rating of my 4805), but that is native contrast. No iris tricks. It's the first digital I have owned that has satisfied me to the point where I wasn't obsessing over getting another CRT. lol. The blacks in the darkest scenes aren't nearly as dark as CRT is capable of, but they are convincing enough that I don't feel I need better right now. In a large majority of dark scene black looks black and in the lower contrast dark scenes it's "dark enough". The great shadow detail really helps. The colors are great, it's a nice smooth picture. It's very sharp and and bright. I love it.

Sometimes in the darkest of scenes I will miss my CRT a bit, but nothing like when I had an X1 or 4805 when I would really want CRT desperately (especially the X1) when dark scenes would come up. The X1 was weak with dark scenes, The 4805 was pretty good with most dark scenes, the DT-500 is very good-great with dark scenes and my CRTs were outstanding with dark scenes.

I got mine for only $760 and it has been a great projector. Great bang for my buck! I'm not sure I could live with any of these auto iris projectors claiming 100,000 & 200,000. I don't know if the new projectors have gotten rid of this or if it's possible to get rid of using an auto iris, but if you have a halfway decent eye you can see the auto iris adjust on some units. Maybe that has diminished to a point where it's not a problem, but I doubt it.
What does "prolly" mean?

What does "prolly" mean?

Probably

The diff bet 12'Lp, tube amp, digital camera n film has reached a point where I would also favor digital (there is not much or hardly any impt gap). But CRT advantage(low IRE dynamic range) is stil miles ahead n has not bridge the gap yet ESP in a proper setup bat cave. By the way u need at least an 8" or 9" liquid couple CRT. If u reduce digital sharpness to true neutrality do u know that CRT can resolve finer details? Not many agree as they have not seen or understood


I quess I am falling just short of the mark as the Marquee 8500 is 8" air coupled :D

There is an amazing thread in CRT where a guy converted his air coupled to a liquid. I cringed when I saw the pic of him taking a hacksaw to his brand new tube :eek:

Not to say the projector's black levels aren't great, but for the record (and I'm into filmmaking/photography and do advanced color grading for digital video, so I know what I'm talking about here. hehe), you really should never judge black level or contrast from screenshots ever. I could take a 500:1 projector and blacks would look black with a screenshot.

Cameras instantly darken the black level in dark scenes when you expose for anything but the darks and even then it dramatically darkens them, because the sensors aren't as sensitive to low light as the human eyes. Cameras don't have near the dynamic range of the human eye, so they take more contrasty pictures of screenshots unless you intentionally miscalibrate your image so the camera will see it the way the human eyes do.


you left out the most important reason screen shots are worthless. LCD pc monitors!!!!!!!!!!!

mine is a 37" 1080 unit with great clarity and color and utterly lousy black level.

so any picts you show me will NEVER look dark when looking at them on my monitor.

Some here may still be using CRT monitors, they may have a lower black level, but most folks have LCD now.

Avax - I never had a CRT projector, but my friend had an old worn out 6' sony (the one with the silver curved screen - mind 80's era), he also had a 1st generation sony CRT projector unit that was just a 13" TV with a mirror that reflected up to the screen above it 48" screen, very dim pict but kinda cool since it was Sony first model (early 70's 73 I think) He had both only 5 yr ago, the 73 model was in good condition. He also had a decent Mits unit with around a 5ft screen (the damn thing was pretty sweet in that it "Folded out" ).

anyway, back to the subject. I've never had a CRT projector (well not a real one - I did build one years ago using a 13" sony TV (flipped the image) and an 8" glass lense, it was actually watchable), but bought my Optoma H31 which is a DLP unit. black levels could be better, ths remains the achilles heel of all digital projectors. they say DI fixes it, but I just don't beleive it. I think it is something i'd notice and basically a cludge.

I've seen LCDs and they ALL look "flat" to me - just like the old LCD TV from the mid-90 to only 5 years ago. New LCD tv you see and Blackbuster all look good and not flat, but i think the projectors are still in flatland.

I like DLP, and plan to stick with that technology.

I recommend you hold off 2 weeks and wait for the reviews of the Mits HC 3800 with is now comming out. its a 1080 DLP with a supposted contrast of around 4000/1 (it lacks dynamic Iris DI BTW).

good luck in your decision.

Avax - I never had a CRT projector, but my friend had an old worn out 6' sony (the one with the silver curved screen - mind 80's era), he also had a 1st generation sony CRT projector unit that was just a 13" TV with a mirror that reflected up to the screen above it 48" screen, very dim pict but kinda cool since it was Sony first model (early 70's 73 I think) He had both only 5 yr ago, the 73 model was in good condition. He also had a decent Mits unit with around a 5ft screen (the damn thing was pretty sweet in that it "Folded out" ).

anyway, back to the subject. I've never had a CRT projector (well not a real one - I did build one years ago using a 13" sony TV (flipped the image) and an 8" glass lense, it was actually watchable), but bought my Optoma H31 which is a DLP unit. black levels could be better, ths remains the achilles heel of all digital projectors. they say DI fixes it, but I just don't beleive it. I think it is something i'd notice and basically a cludge.

I've seen LCDs and they ALL look "flat" to me - just like the old LCD TV from the mid-90 to only 5 years ago. New LCD tv you see and Blackbuster all look good and not flat, but i think the projectors are still in flatland.

I like DLP, and plan to stick with that technology.

I recommend you hold off 2 weeks and wait for the reviews of the Mits HC 3800 with is now comming out. its a 1080 DLP with a supposted contrast of around 4000/1 (it lacks dynamic Iris DI BTW).

good luck in your decision.


That's too funny. I never thought the magnifing glass would actually work to any degree of watchablity, even within the standards of the time. :D

I remember the early 3 tube consumer projectors. The rear projection units had drawers that contained the guns and had to be unfolded out as you described. Others were the front projection units that were like a coffee table you would put on the floor in front of the couch.

I recall when working as a videographer for a real estate marketing TV show, I went to this house, that had one of these coffe table units, to video the interior for the video ad. Alone in the house, I couldn't help myself and turned it on. Convergance was a total mess so I tuned it up and got a good image again. I can only image his shock when he turned it on and it was magically fixed :)

However, to your point current DLP technology is a bit of an ingma at moment. I have no idea where we stand there. Last time I saw DLP was on the first generation chip and the color was a mess. Is the 3800 a 3rd gen chip? Are they doing 3 chip (RGB) implementations yet. Sorry I am totally ignorant on this.

The good news is I don't need to make a hasty decision. I have got most of my image back, but I am unable to get a good white balance. So I am watching for change to see if I have a tube actualy dieing as I originaly thought. Something isn't right I know that.

Jay

That's too funny. I never thought the magnifing glass would actually work to any degree of watchablity, even within the standards of the time. :D

I remember the early 3 tube consumer projectors. The rear projection units had drawers that contained the guns and had to be unfolded out as you described. Others were the front projection units that were like a coffee table you would put on the floor in front of the couch.

I recall when working as a videographer for a real estate marketing TV show, I went to this house, that had one of these coffe table units, to video the interior for the video ad. Alone in the house, I couldn't help myself and turned it on. Convergance was a total mess so I tuned it up and got a good image again. I can only image his shock when he turned it on and it was magically fixed :)

However, to your point current DLP technology is a bit of an ingma at moment. I have no idea where we stand there. Last time I saw DLP was on the first generation chip and the color was a mess. Is the 3800 a 3rd gen chip? Are they doing 3 chip (RGB) implementations yet. Sorry I am totally ignorant on this.

The good news is I don't need to make a hasty decision. I have got most of my image back, but I am unable to get a good white balance. So I am watching for change to see if I have a tube actualy dieing as I originaly thought. Something isn't right I know that.

Jay




as you may know DLP technology started over 20 yrs ago (beleive it or not Plasma goes all the way back to the late 60s!!) - I only assume the technology either sucked or was too expensive to market at the time (probably both). I first heard of DLP looking at computer magazines in the Book People store around 1996. I don't know what chips IT sold in the 90's, if they were 640/480 or 320/240s I have no clue.

the first DLP chip I do know about is the one that the X1 (Infocus???) had, called the "darkchip" which I think was basically generation one of the standard definition (not sure if that means 640/480 (4/3 aspect) or 840/480 (16/9 aspect) chip.

I own a generation two called "Darkchip 2" (units like mine the H31 Optoma and the Infocus 4508? 4805? use it - both were top sellers in around 2004/2005) this chip is a 16/9 aspect ration so 840/480 perfect for DVDs (even today 99-pecent of my library is DVD and this res is more than good enough for my movies).

AFAIK since 2004 all DLP has been doing is upping the resolution of their chips - first to 1280?/720 then to what is the current res of 1920/1080. There seems to be little progress in the black levels. TI probably calls these chips Darkchip 3 and Darkchip 4 - I don't know, but basically they are what I have in my 5 yr old H31, they are just a higher res verson of the Darkchip 2.

For example, the Optoma H20 AFAIK does not have a better black level than than my H31 (same with the new Vivitek) even though it is 5 years newer. MY DVD would not look any better in it. They will play Blurays with far more detail, but no more constrast nor black level than my prehistoric unit.

The Mits seems to fair better in its black level - it seems that Mits has done something the other makers have not (all use the same 1080 DLP chip) this time around. either that or the one preview review is incorrect in its statement that the mits has better blacks than the viviket/optoma.

I await confirmation. I would welcome better blacks and less fixation on resolution.

BTW color is sweet on all the DLPs I've seen since I've bought mine in 2005.

Now rainbows are another matter - I see them easily even with a 4x wheel, but I've trained myself to ignore them and not dart my eyes around.

no not 3-chips in the Mits (too expensive) still one chip with a 4x colorwheel. 1920/1080 rez.

priced around 1300 bucks

you left out the most important reason screen shots are worthless. LCD pc monitors!!!!!!!!!!!

mine is a 37" 1080 unit with great clarity and color and utterly lousy black level.

so any picts you show me will NEVER look dark when looking at them on my monitor.

Some here may still be using CRT monitors, they may have a lower black level, but most folks have LCD now.


Totally forgot about that, because I'm still using a nice CRT monitor and I love it. :D The picture on this thing with films is just phenominal. If only it could be as big as my projector's image I would prefer it easily. :)

Totally forgot about that, because I'm still using a nice CRT monitor and I love it. :D The picture on this thing with films is just phenominal. If only it could be as big as my projector's image I would prefer it easily. :)


yep, I had a 20" CTX from 95 up to when she blew (a second time - had it fixed the first time years ago) in 07.

got a refurb Westinghouse 37"er for 512 bucks in 07, but too good a deal to pass up.

once you go to 37" on a PC desktop you never want to go back to punny 21". ;-).

bigger is better afterall ;-).

its a rule of nature.

Well I made my choice. It is an unexpected one. I spoke with a ISF certified calibration guy local in my area who was recommended by an installer earlier in this thread.

He knows CRT and Digital inside and out and calibrates Hollywood post production facilities.

He offered an initial recommondation that was out of my budget range which would have included a projector at about $7500. For my budget of a couple grand he gave me an alternative. It was oriented arounded my desire for true film like reproduction which CRT is known for. BTW he doesn't sell the gear, just calibration.

However the projector is a generation back and out of production. It falls short on resolution, brightness, and contrast ratio when compared to current projectors. But it does a couple of very important things right, it is able to reproduce color and shadow detail very acurately. Color was the number one thing that really made movies on DLP unwatchable for me when I last had to choose between sticking with CRT or convert.

Anyway here is the plan (oh it's already in the UPS truck so no turning back now):

Samsung 710ae projector - $830
DVDO Edge - $530
ISF Claibration - $500
Univeral Mount and 30' HDMI cable = $150

Grand total: $2010

I know it probably flies against all conventional wisdom here, but I am assured I will have an overall image that will blow away my current setup and will come close to the same Hollywood post production facilities he services. I hope he is right, I will let you know when it is all said and done.

Jay

Previously my research was more on the gear that was advised. After all said and done, the advice made sense.

I have done some further research on the expertise of man who gave the advice. I was told he was an expert. That he is. He was one of the early ISF certification trainers and has worked with, presented with, and is a consultant/vendor to Joe Kane. Who incidentally was the leading force on the Samsung's 710ae design and was credited for it's outstanding reference performance.

I am in great company here and really look forward the end result.

Jay

HI Jay,

I'm a CRTer ( Barco 1208/2 ), and I saw the JK Samsung 710 at Infocomm a number of years ago when it first came out. In fact, JK was conducting the demos. It was a fabulous picture, with great shadow detail.

The only drawback was that the eary 710's were plagued with problems, so if you can get some type of 3rd party extended warranty it might be a good investment.

Jonathan

I have owned a Kloss Novabeam since 1980. The unit has been re-tubed a couple of times over the years. I retired it from service last week when it was replaced with AE4000 I have no regrets. The new projector is amazing.
If anyone in NJ would like my Novabeam please contact me.

I have owned a Kloss Novabeam since 1980. The unit has been re-tubed a couple of times over the years. I retired it from service last week when it was replaced with AE4000 I have no regrets. The new projector is amazing.
If anyone in NJ would like my Novabeam please contact me.

You kept the Kloss alive for nearly 30 years! That is amazing. I should hope your happy with one of the hottest projectors in the market. I imagine a flashlight and shadow puppets would come close to rivaling a 30 year old novabeam :D All kidding aside, I am impressed.

Jay

HI Jay,

I'm a CRTer ( Barco 1208/2 ), and I saw the JK Samsung 710 at Infocomm a number of years ago when it first came out. In fact, JK was conducting the demos. It was a fabulous picture, with great shadow detail.

The only drawback was that the eary 710's were plagued with problems, so if you can get some type of 3rd party extended warranty it might be a good investment.

Jonathan

I can't imagine it is an early production unit as it has been out of manufacture for a bit. It was actually difficult to track a new one down.
I should have it Friday so play with it over the weekend. I know I will sacrafice some black level, but if the color is on and the detail is there I should be happy with it.

Good luck with your purchase! You will really like the 710 when it is dialed in. Sure the blacks are not as great as some of the newer projectors, but the accuracy and depth to the image are second to none with that unit. One word of caution though (speaking as someone who owned the 700 (710's more expensive older brother), Samsung has the worst customer service in the industry. Mine had the dreaded startup problems that the 700 and 710 were known for and Samsung refused to fix it (still under warranty). After many months of complaining, I got my money back but had to go to a different projector. I have a JVC RS1x now, but I still miss the colors and accuracy of the 700.

Oh if it helps I mostly use the projector for blue ray movies, HD football, and some HD tv series such as Dexter or Sons of Anarchy. I do not game at all.

...He knows CRT and Digital inside and out and calibrates Hollywood post production facilities.

...Anyway here is the plan (oh it's already in the UPS truck so no turning back now):

Samsung 710ae projector - $830
DVDO Edge - $530
ISF Claibration - $500
Univeral Mount and 30' HDMI cable = $150

Grand total: $2010..I guess no one else will say it so I will. You got sold a bill of goods :eek:

If you watch Blu Ray, HD football and HD TV and are comming from a 8500
1) Why do you need an Edge?
2) Why are you buying a low contrast 720P projector?
3) Why are you paying $500 for calibration on a 710?

You would have been better off buying say a panny 4000 which has a very accurate HD color mode, superior contrasti, 1080P, and is used in some post prod houses! That and $30 HD DVE to set brightness and contrast for your room is all you would need.

LCD's and DLP have very different looks. I personally can't watch LCD's. Also, except for the black levels, resolution and feature set, the 710 will best the 4000. It will have better color accuracy, better sharpness and for those for prefer CRT's, a more pleasing overall picture (IMO). This unit was THE unit to have a few years back and will still hold it's own today.

LCD's and DLP have very different looks. I personally can't watch LCD's. Also, except for the black levels, resolution and feature set, the 710 will best the 4000. It will have better color accuracy, better sharpness and for those for prefer CRT's, a more pleasing overall picture (IMO). This unit was THE unit to have a few years back and will still hold it's own today.

????

Why the question marks?

http://www.projectorreviews.com/samsung/sp-h710ae/proscons.php

This review seems to think the projector (at it's time) was great and didn't need any tweeking out of the box. I'd save myself the $1000 on the edge and ISFcalibration and spend it on a masking screen (as the review states the letter box blacks are very "bright" compared to other projectors*). The review also states the projector should only be used in a completly black room due to it's lack of light output. That kind of sucks, it's a dim projector with "bright" letter box blacks. :( I'd keep looking.

*I've seen some bright letter box areas on bulb based projectors so, I would be interested in seeing how "bright" this really is. Coming from a CRT projector with zero ligh being emmitted in the letter box area, this might be a deal breaker for me.

LCD's and DLP have very different looks. I personally can't watch LCD's. Also, except for the black levels, resolution and feature set, the 710 will best the 4000. It will have better color accuracy, better sharpness and for those for prefer CRT's, a more pleasing overall picture (IMO)..
The 4000 has a CMS and has a very accurate Rec709 mode OOTB. The 710 is undersaturated for HD, it appears to be slightly undersaturated for SMPTE-C how is it more accurate?

The 710 is 720P and will have to down sample Blu Ray and 1080 HDTV. How can it be sharper?

The 710 does ~1,400:1 on/of CR and ~370:1 ANSI CR. The on/off CR is very poor. Those of us who like CRTs (I still own a G70) would find 1,400:1 unacceptable.

I guess no one else will say it so I will. You got sold a bill of goods :eek:

If you watch Blu Ray, HD football and HD TV and are comming from a 8500
1) Why do you need an Edge?
2) Why are you buying a low contrast 720P projector?
3) Why are you paying $500 for calibration on a 710?

You would have been better off buying say a panny 4000 which has a very accurate HD color mode, superior contrasti, 1080P, and is used in some post prod houses! That and $30 HD DVE to set brightness and contrast for your room is all you would need.

Well let’s see, I don't think I would be happy with an LCD. I seriously considered the Panny 4000 but I really think that auto IRIS would make me insane.

The edge is to scale down Blue-Ray to 720P rather than have an $800 projector do the job. The edge will produce a better result.

I am buying a low cost 720P projector for a few reasons. This projector was for a while a reference projector and produces the most film like image. The Sammy A800, also a Joe Kane designed projector, which would of got me the extra contrast, shadow detail, 1080P, and the color, but at $7500 it was out of my price range. I am running the CRT at 720P so I won't miss the full 1080P.

Ultimately, after some research, I accepted the advice of one of the most respected calibration guys in the industry. I am willing to pay $500 for him to properly calibrate the system using the correct test instrumentation for the same reason anyone else would hire him. To get the absolute best possible image that the system can produce.

Sure I can get a nice image using the disk, but for you to say just set the white and black levels is overly simplistic. I know the Panny 4000 and the Ebson 8000u are supposed to be break through LCD projectors for their price point. I certainly would not speak ill of them or those who are happily enjoying all the features the offer. However, I do not feel that specifications put out there by the marketing departments, like phony 100,000:1 contrast ratios are the way to choose a system.

In addition, I know a little something about video. I have a degree in communications specializing in broadcast television engineering. I worked as a videographer and edit suite engineer for a local broadcast television show. Granted this was 17 years ago, but I understand a little something about a video signal.

In the end I will go with the advice of those who are in the same company as Joe Kane.

Jay

http://www.projectorreviews.com/samsung/sp-h710ae/proscons.php

This review seems to think the projector (at it's time) was great and didn't need any tweeking out of the box. I'd save myself the $1000 on the edge and ISFcalibration and spend it on a masking screen (as the review states the letter box blacks are very "bright" compared to other projectors*). The review also states the projector should only be used in a completly black room due to it's lack of light output. That kind of sucks, it's a dim projector with "bright" letter box blacks. :( I'd keep looking.

*I've seen some bright letter box areas on bulb based projectors so, I would be interested in seeing how "bright" this really is. Coming from a CRT projector with zero ligh being emmitted in the letter box area, this might be a deal breaker for me.

Hey I won't kid you, I am concerned about the hit I am going to take in black level. I am also trying to figure out the screen due to the letterbox issue. At the moment the only thing that has actually been purchased is the projector. I am taking a bit of a leap in faith here that I will be happy once all said and done. But right now I am only on the hook for the projector which I can always return.

Jay

The 710 does have its own calibration system which does adjust the primaries/ secondaries. It is in the service menu of the projector and not accessible to end users. I'm sure your calibrator will tweak it to its max performance and you'll be impressed:-) I bet there is nobody that knows that PJ better than him except Joe Kane himself. The black level is the only thing your going to miss but you'll like the shadow detail.

Bob

The 710 does have its own calibration system which does adjust the primaries/ secondaries. It is in the service menu of the projector and not accessible to end users. I'm sure your calibrator will tweak it to its max performance and you'll be impressed:-) I bet there is nobody that knows that PJ better than him except Joe Kane himself. The black level is the only thing your going to miss but you'll like the shadow detail.

Bob

Thanks Bob!

Well let’s see, I don't think I would be happy with an LCD. I seriously considered the Panny 4000 but I really think that auto IRIS would make me insane...Have you auditioned any modern LCDs? Have you seen any modern auto iris? Turn it off you are still going to get 3x better CR than the Sammy even without the DI. :eek:

a 1,400:1 CR would drive me insane, talk about gray blacks!

If you spend any time on the CRT forum checkout the review overclkr (Mr G90 Stack) did on the AE2000 to years ago. :D

I was a CRT front projector owner for 32 years, ending up with a Sony G70 from about 2000 thru 2006 after having used other NEC and Sony front projectors through the 1990s. Before that I had a consumer Kloss Video projector in the 1980's and an Advent in the 1970's. I'm now using a Epson 6500UB and I find it projects a much sharper and brighter image than the G70 was capable of and I'm really also not missing much in terms of black level as compared to the G70. I find that the 6500UB can project a smooth film-like image while still providing razor sharp detail from corner to corner. Bottom line I rate it better in most ways than my G70. However, I do admit that ceiling mounting the G70 (at approx. 180 pounds) did provide a much better team building experience for myself and several friends that simply was missiing when I ceiling mounted my 6500UB solo in just a few minutes.

I was a CRT front projector owner for 32 years, ending up with a Sony G70 from about 2000 thru 2006 after having used other NEC and Sony front projectors through the 1990s. Before that I had a consumer Kloss Video projector in the 1980's and an Advent in the 1970's. I'm now using a Epson 6500UB and I find it projects a much sharper and brighter image than the G70 was capable of and I'm really also not missing much in terms of black level as compared to the G70. I find that the 6500UB can project a smooth film-like image while still providing razor sharp detail from corner to corner. Bottom line I rate it better in most ways than my G70. However, I do admit that ceiling mounting the G70 (at approx. 180 pounds) did provide a much better team building experience for myself and several friends that simply was missiing when I ceiling mounted my 6500UB solo in just a few minutes.

Bingo! I have a gamma corrected, colour corrected Sony G90 with around 1100 hours on the tubes, which is floor mounted, and an Epson 7500UB (similar to the 6500), which is self mounted. Both are in the same home theatre. I'm using the 7500 in Vivid mode with two external filters and the image is simply stunning! The G90 will do fades to complete black (and hold them, which isn't very film like, since film sucks when it comes to black levels); however, the 7500 has a very good black level and simply bests the G90 in every other respect (very large and bright image, very sharp and vibrant - again not particularly film like). If you're looking for film like then I guess the Samsung will fit the bill. If you're looking for a great image at a bargain price then try an Epson 8500UB or the Panasonic AE4000.