I've checked the forums quite a bit but haven't seen any comments on this.

If one had both the Panasonic P65V10 and the P65S1 professionally calibrated and were viewing the highest quality source (a Blu-Ray DVD, I guess) at 60p only, would one notice a difference between the two pictures when viewing them side-by-side in a dark room (even though I think both of them have the exact same "New AR (Anti-Reflective) Filter", as it is described in the specifications on both units). I guess the best way to test would be also to not actually know which display was which when viewing them.

Please treat the extra features of the P65V10, which are Viera Cast (IPTV), an extra HDMI port, PC Input, 24p Cinematic Playback, more picture settings, THX & BBE VIVA HD3D sound, an RS232C port, and a higher price as irrelevant. I am strictly concerned with the picture quality at 60p.

EDIT: A side question I am wondering about is that if they have exactly the same panel, which is specified as the G12 Progressive 1080p HD NeoPDP on each, and are able to have their settings adjusted, whether either manually or using preset adjustments, shouldn't the picture be exactly the same? Or are there adjustments which simply cannot be made on the S1 that can be made on the V10, whether you have a professional calibrator or not? I notice the V10 has 'x.v. color' and 'sub-pixel control' while the S1 does not. Does this affect picture quality in a real-world setting?

Thanks.

Should be close in a dark room. I believe the V10 has more shades of gradation.(probably double?)

Should be close in a dark room. I believe the V10 has more shades of gradation.(probably double?)

In a dark room is key. I've heard good things about the anti-relective screen on the V10. I was at a nice local electronics store yesterday and was fortunate to see the 65" S1 playing a Blu-ray*. The picture was absolutely amazing, but even the dim lights of the showroom were evident on its screen. It is for this reason that I'm not considering the S1 as I am in the market right now. My room is bright enough that the glare would be obnoxious and it is pretty well known that more brightness = slightly lower PQ. So in that regard, the V10 wins.

* They also had the 65" V10, but it wasn't playing a Blu-ray so I can't do a really accurate comparison in that regard.

So the V10 has anti-glare treatment and the S1 does not? Missed that on the specs. I've seen some on here complain about the V10 in a room with windows.

I would think the price difference alone would sway me to the S1 if i had to choose. I think it offsets any of the improvements of the V10 in my opinion.

So the V10 has anti-glare treatment and the S1 does not? Missed that on the specs. I've seen some on here complain about the V10 in a room with windows.

Actually I corrected that. Both list the same anti-reflective screen in the specs so I assume they are the same.

I would think the price difference alone would sway me to the S1 if i had to choose. I think it offsets any of the improvements of the V10 in my opinion.

As mentioned in my op, please ignore the price difference as a consideration. "Is there any diifference in the picture on the two units at 60p when professional calibrated?" is my only question with everything else irrelevant.

Same SM adjustments.
V10 has more shades of gradation.(better IQ)
V10 has a better AR coating, from what I've read, despite the specs.(they could be wrong)

All Pannys except the Z1 have the same AR filter.

Same SM adjustments.
V10 has more shades of gradation.(better IQ)
V10 has a better AR coating, from what I've read, despite the specs.(they could be wrong)

But the specs show both as having 6,144 shades of gradation, or is this a misprint?

Nonetheless, what effect does this, if true, have on the picture in a real world situation? Can you detect the difference?

Same SM adjustments.
V10 has more shades of gradation.(better IQ)
V10 has a better AR coating, from what I've read, despite the specs.(they could be wrong)

The PDF spec sheets on Panny's site show the 65s1 with 6,144 equivalent Shades of Gradation and the V10 with 5,120 equivalent?

The PDF spec sheets on Panny's site show the 65s1 with 6,144 equivalent Shades of Gradation and the V10 with 5,120 equivalent?

I am not sure what 'equivalent' means, but I checked and you are right, the V10 has fewer shades it seems than the S1.

The PDF spec sheets on Panny's site show the 65s1 with 6,144 equivalent Shades of Gradation and the V10 with 5,120 equivalent?

I never went to the site to check.
This is very suprising to me.

How about the ability to play 1080p24? Does both have the equivalent of a Cinemotion or Cinema Smooth feature? I'm worried about the problems with such in the Sammys and not sure I can stretch to meet the price of a 65 inch V10.

How about the ability to play 1080p24? Does both have the equivalent of a Cinemotion or Cinema Smooth feature? I'm worried about the problems with such in the Sammys and not sure I can stretch to meet the price of a 65 inch V10.

Please don't hijack the thread and talk about other issues as I have said to ignore 24p and only refer to 60p. This is a vary specific thread. Refer to my OP and please comment with respect to that only, thanks.

Excuse me:(

Please don't hijack the thread and talk about other issues as I have said to ignore 24p and only refer to 60p. This is a vary specific thread. Refer to my OP and please comment with respect to that only, thanks.

You have gotten your answer already from more than one person. ;)

No one has answered the question yet that I have seen other than one comment that it 'should' be the same in a dark room, without any elaboration or actual test.

So, not sure what you mean. Please direct me to the post reply that answered my question which, again, is:

If one had both the Panasonic P65V10 and the P65S1 professionally calibrated and were viewing the highest quality source (a Blu-Ray DVD, I guess) at 60p only, would one notice a difference between the two pictures when viewing them side-by-side in a dark room (even though I think both of them have the exact same "New AR (Anti-Reflective) Filter", as it is described in the specifications on both units)?

Maybe the answers to these three questions regarding picture quality would help:

1. Can both units be tweaked exactly the same if one goes into the various menus available on each;
2. Does the fact the S1 does not have 's.v. color' or 'sub-pixel' control while the V10 does affect picture quality noticeably?; and
3. How does the fact that the S1 (6,144) has more shades of equivalent gradation than the V10 (5,120) affect picture quality?

From me:
-Same SM adjustments

From H_Prestige:
-Same AR filter

From fullhorn:
-S1 has 1,124 more shades of gradation

What else do you want? ;)

No one has answered the question yet that I have seen other than one comment that it 'should' be the same in a dark room, without any elaboration.

So, not sure what you mean. Please direct me to the post reply that answered my question which, again, is:

If one had both the Panasonic P65V10 and the P65S1 professionally calibrated and were viewing the highest quality source (a Blu-Ray DVD, I guess) at 60p only, would one notice a difference between the two pictures when viewing them side-by-side in a dark room (even though I think both of them have the exact same "New AR (Anti-Reflective) Filter", as it is described in the specifications on both units)?

It must be your bedside manners that make people want to flock in droves to answer "your thread".

Thanks, very nice. If pointing out that the question has not been answered when someone says it has (but can't show it has) is bad bedside manners to you, maybe time for you to move on and leave the thread to those with some useful input.

Good luck.

Can you not view my last post?
Please answer how that doesn't answer your question?

From me:
-Same SM adjustments

From H_Prestige:
-Same AR filter

From fullhorn:
-S1 has 1,124 more shades of gradation

What else do you want? ;)


Can you not view my last post?
Please answer how that doesn't answer your question?

Yes, and I have quoted it above. But, you've missed some other issues that I have referred to specifically above:

Are readers to infer that because no one has commented on the other differences between the two units, which are that the V10 has 's.v. color' and 'sub-pixel adjustment' while the S1 does not and the differences in gradation between the two that they have they have no effect on picture quality? (Odd also that the less expensive S1 has more levels of gradation, given I would assume that more levels are better, or are more levels not better?).

I think that these are the only other differences between the two units that might affect picture quality but may be wrong (and would be delighted and won't get emotional if someone points out that I am :)

Thanks.

The more shades the better, you are correct.
The other two I am not sure about.
I would ask those two in the V10 owners thread.

I did post those questions there, but that thread is so long and people are discussing so many different things that it seems individual questions can get lost and never answered, which is why I created this specific thread.

However, of the remaining unanswered issues, I have found that 's.v. color' only is important if something is recorded in s.v. color which practically nothing is, so that is a non-issue.

What's left then, of the things I mentioned, is 'sub-pixel adjustment', which is done automatically by the unit. Has anyone noticed what effect this has on a V10 vs. an S1 display?

Also, am I right in concluding that since both units have the same SM adjustments, but the V10 has pre-set settings you can use right out of the box, that you can actually tweak both units exactly the same except you'll do a lot more work in the case of the S1 because you have to do it all manually?

Out of curiosity, why are you asking this question? If it's to make a TV decision, the fact that nobody can tell you one way or the other should tell you that perfectly calibrated, the pictures are about the same. And since that is all you seem to care about, the decision is easy. The 65" S1 is $1300 less than the 65" V10.

Because I would like to know what effect these features have on the picture quality.

Any reason why you're not taking the THX mode of the V10 into consideration? It seems as though the 65V10s are the ones that are guaranteed to have the fixed THX mode, though you might find it to be too dim.

Because I wanted to compare the visual capabilities of the two displays. Apparently the S1 can show the same THX visual mode if you know how to tweak it by going into the SM settings and manipulating all of the settings, but with the V10 it has the THX settings pre-set and you can just choose it (or am I wrong on all of this?)

This is what people seem to be telling me on here (ie both have the same SM settings) so you can actually get both sets to show the same picture, whether THX or not.

No, you can't tweak the settings on the S1 to have the colors as accurate as on the V10 THX mode. If look at calibrator Chad B's TV rankings, http://hdtvbychadb.com/reviews.htm, he gave the S1 a 4/10 for color after calibration while the V10 got a 10/10. But like I said, some people find THX to be too dim so that's something you have to keep in mind.

Ah ok. Good to know. Prior posts on here stated that they had the same SM settings but maybe that was incorrect and they do not. Or is it that they have the same settings but for some other reason you cannot get the color the same. If the latter is the case, what is the reason one cannot get the color the same, given they are the same panel. Is there something external to the panel in different onboard circuitry between the two units that facilitates this?

Otherwise the last question I am left with is what effect the sub-pixel adjustment has.

Same SM adjustments.
V10 has more shades of gradation.(better IQ)
V10 has a better AR coating, from what I've read, despite the specs.(they could be wrong)

The panasonic website lists the 65V10 as having the equivalent of 6144 shades of gradation...so they are the same in that respect at least according to the website:)

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Televisions/All-VIERA-Flat-Panel-HDTVs/model.TC-P65V10.S_11002_7000000000000005702#tabsection

For me having the pro setting is a must cuz I like to tweak!

The panasonic website lists the 65V10 as having the equivalent of 6144 shades of gradation...so they are the same in that respect at least according to the website:)

http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Televisions/All-VIERA-Flat-Panel-HDTVs/model.TC-P65V10.S_11002_7000000000000005702#tabsection

For me having the pro setting is a must cuz I like to tweak!

But, when you download the pdf spec sheet from that same page you referred to it shows all of the V10 units as '5,120 equivalent' gradation vs 6144 when you look at the S1 pdf spec sheet. Maybe that's a typo (in each of the 4 columns?).

Ah ok. Good to know. Prior posts on here stated that they had the same SM settings but maybe that was incorrect and they do not. Or is it that they have the same settings but for some other reason you cannot get the color the same. If the latter is the case, what is the reason one cannot get the color the same, given they are the same panel. Is there something external to the panel in different onboard circuitry between the two units that facilitates this?

Otherwise the last question I am left with is what effect the sub-pixel adjustment has.

These Panasonics do not have a Color Management System (CMS). Unfortunately the colors are set in the hardware. That's the reason one cannot get the color the same. The THX mode yields much more accurate color.

Larry

These Panasonics do not have a Color Management System (CMS). Unfortunately the colors are set in the hardware. That's the reason one cannot get the color the same. The THX mode yields much more accurate color.

Larry

Thanks. This is starting to make sense now. The colors are hardwired in and the SM settings only tweak those colors. I guess the problem is you don't really know until you buy the unit. It's hard to compare if you are just looking at one unit or the other. I wonder if there is somewhere where you can see both units that have been calibrated sitting side by side and playing the same source.

Thanks. This is starting to make sense now. The colors are hardwired in and the SM settings only tweak those colors. I guess the problem is you don't really know until you buy the unit. It's hard to compare if you are just looking at one unit or the other. I wonder if there is somewhere where you can see both units that have been calibrated sitting side by side and playing the same source.

Not quite. The only SM adjustment that can be made is on grayscale tracking. The colors cannot be 'tweaked' at all.

Larry

That would be the best case scenario alright. It seems from what I've seen from Chad's list, and read, that the V10 is capable of looking better than the S1. Some really like the THX mode, and others not so much. The other thread here they are discussing the differences between the THX mode, and the custom mode on their V10's...both professionaly calibrated. they like thx better. To me if THX can't look damn good with a home calibration, it may not be worth the dough. Saying that, if movies look much better with the 24p, and choosing between two modes to suit the situation is only on the V10....who knows. Does the S1 have the ability to save two pre sets for day and night like my current Hitachi?

Not quite. The only SM adjustment that can be made is on grayscale tracking. The colors cannot be 'tweaked' at all.

Larry

So does that mean that on the S1 all you can change then is the brightness, contrast, saturation and aspects like that?

If you don't like THX mode on the V10, and you aren't concerned about the other features (like 24p playback, extra HDMI, RS232C port, sounds, etc) then is there any reason to pay the extra money for the V10 over the S1 as it relates to the picture quality itself?

THX is not inherently too dim, this is a misconception. I have my 65V10 pro calibrated and THX is my preferred mode even in daytime viewing. This is probably due to better colors and shadow detail I see in THX. I use my calibrated custom mode, which was set for daytime viewing, for viewing some particular content, like NFL, but I gravitate to THX for most other content.

Anyone know if the SI can have two pre sets to switch between?

I wonder if there is somewhere where you can see both units that have been calibrated sitting side by side and playing the same source.

There 'is' a place where you can see both units professionaly calibrated side by side playing the same source...your living room, after you buy both and have them professionaly calibrated.
Please forgive me....I could not resist. :)

You are asking, in an indirect though interesting way, what many posters have been asking under several different threads for the past several months:
Are the v10 and s1 tvs close enough (or the same) in picture quality that the s1 is the way to go?
Does one need to buy the v10 compared to the s1 to get the best picture quality if all one wants is picture quality (and not most of the v10 features)?

I asked the same thing, and then did my own research online, checked the specs, and then looked at the tvs in stores. I thought it 'should' be easy enough to get a definitive answer to those questions, but I could not - other than an occasional review by someone who saw both and said v10 was the way to go (and that could be subjective even with specific stats provided).

I saw the v10 in one size and thought it looked better than an s1 in another size, but that is just me, and not very scientific - but since I am buying it and will be viewing it, perhaps it was more valid than someone else saying it was good. The thx mode on the v10 looked great to me, so that made the v10 appealing. Also, more non-SM picture controls was appealing as well, since there has been threads about panny reps saying that going into the SM voids one warranty.

Unless one can buy both units and have them side by side and run tests side by side (as I joked above) it is hard to say based on specs and reviews alone if they are the same, or close enough. There are reviews that say the v10 picture quality is better, and why, but how much better is left to the reviewer.


Me, I got the 65v10 after my 'search for the holy grail' of s1 vs v10. I am well satisfed; no regrets. But, to be clear, if I could not find a 65v10 (given they are hard to find right now) I would buy a 65s1.


I do not think one can go far wrong with the s1 - and I came to that conclusion using reverse logic:

I could not find reviews that said that the s1 is 'incredibly' different than the v10 in overall picture quality, the way that this is said about the entry level models of panny plasmas compared to the higher end panny plasmas.

Also, all of the people who went for the s1s love them; I have not read a review by any s1 owner who said that they thought the s1 had a bad picture.

Good luck with whichever model you get.

Please post your test results if you buy both and do side by side testing... :)

Thanks. I enjoyed reading your post and you are absolutely right.

And, yes, I was indeed wondering if the S1 was close enough to the V10 in picture quality and the way to go if one did not care for the other features. I am based in Canada so our prices turn out to be much higher than yours and there isn't as much deep discounting going on.

But, yes, I will let anyone know once I have the two units at my place side-by-side ;)

Problem I've had is that I was ready for the S1 based on consumer reveiws, but now wondering after reading professional reveiws. I like the best, but I think this time I'll spend the extra cash on my family who could care less about a slight green push, and 24p movies. My Hitachi still looks great to me...and I know the S1 will be that much better..and bigger. Another poster on a different thread probably said it the best. His V10 looks great in his house. His freinds S1 looks great in his. Which looks better? He would not know unless they are side by side. It's all subjective.

Right, Motovet.

Eonibm, just buy a set. Stop reading this forum -- and stop reading reviews. You'll never get a definitive answer. Actually, I'm surprised that the fanboys of other brands have not yet made an appearance in this thread. But I'm sure, in time, that they will.

You'll love your choice no natter what it is.

Larry

I would still like to know if the S1 has two pre sets....

I would still like to know if the S1 has two pre sets....

Define pre-sets.

If you mean color temperature, it has three -- warm, normal, and cool.

If you mean picture modes, it has five -- vivid, cinema, standard, game, and custom. Custom is adjustable for each input. The others are global for all inputs.

I don't know if this addresses your concern. If not, try to be more specific in your question.

All the information is in the owner's manual which used to be available for download on the Panasonic site. I assume it still is.

Larry

If you can get access to the Panasonic Direct Employee discount - even the 65v10 is sub $2900. Crazy to think what a 65" top of the line plasma went for 3 years ago ($10,000+).

V10 will simply give you more "tweakability". CNET has reviewed both and S1 and a V1. from my eyes - in any best buy, magnolia, Frys or other store - v10 always looks to have a bit "less" noisy pic - but who really knows - I am sure when you get either home you will be happy.

I think it all depends on price - how much more are you (or arent) willing to pay for a v10 or s1? I show $2300ish for s1 and $2880ish v10...at that diff, I go v10.

However, I am waiting the 6 weeks to see what CES announcements look like.

Define pre-sets.

If you mean color temperature, it has three -- warm, normal, and cool.

If you mean picture modes, it has five -- vivid, cinema, standard, game, and custom. Custom is adjustable for each input. The others are global for all inputs.

I don't know if this addresses your concern. If not, try to be more specific in your question.

All the information is in the owner's manual which used to be available for download on the Panasonic site. I assume it still is.

Larry
A setting for day or night. Two settings calibrated sepeately and saved for switching via remote to accomodate varied light conditions.

Nope, many use Cinema(or THX) and Custom to accomplish this and then switch between.
Custom can get much brighter than Cinema.

Thanks. One nice thing about this Hitachi. Not only does it have the night and day option, it is also on a timer to automaticaly change over.

I show $2300ish for s1 and $2880ish v10...at that diff, I go v10.

Where? If you can tell me in code, I'd appreciate it. I'm seeing $4k.

Thanks. One nice thing about this Hitachi. Not only does it have the night and day option, it is also on a timer to automaticaly change over.

I think using Cinema for night and Custom or some other brighter mode like Standard or Game for day would be essentially the same as what you are talking about, they're just not labeled "Day" and "Night." There is no automatic switch over though.

About color on the S1 (not comparing to the V10 at all just my experience with S1), while not scientific, I can say that before the set was calibrated I could not get the color and tint to meet the Color Bar standard on a calibration disc using the blue filter no matter what values I set in the user menu, after the calibration I could set the color and tint values properly.

Where? If you can tell me in code, I'd appreciate it. I'm seeing $4k.

The price that person quoted was through Panasonic EPP. If the company you work for participates, or you have friend that can access on your behalf, you will see the MSRP and the EPP pricing of anything Panasonic.

What is the average cost of prof. calibration these days? I always have done my own, but sounds like the S1 is a tough nut to crack.

What is the average cost of prof. calibration these days? I always have done my own, but sounds like the S1 is a tough nut to crack.

$300 to $400.

$300 to $400.

i guess i'll ask while it's being discussed. what's the biggest factor in price for a calibration? the calibrator himself? brand? size? enviroment? or market conditions calibrators live in?

Calibrator.
Which depends on his equipment and the value he places on his work.
Amount of time may factor in as well as the number of pieces of equipment he calibrates for.
Check the calibration forum.

Calibrator.
Which depends on his equipment and the value he places on his work.
Amount of time may factor in as well as the number of pieces of equipment he calibrates for.
Check the calibration forum.


ok. thanks. just curious. i doubt i'll get a calibration anytime soon, just wanted a quick answer on what influences price the most.

ok. thanks. just curious. i doubt i'll get a calibration anytime soon, just wanted a quick answer on what influences price the most.

Bestbuy has a fixed price of $300. Private calibrators charge about $400.

Most of the reputable calibrators will do a much better job than the geek squad.

Right, Motovet.

Eonibm, just buy a set. Stop reading this forum -- and stop reading reviews. You'll never get a definitive answer. Actually, I'm surprised that the fanboys of other brands have not yet made an appearance in this thread. But I'm sure, in time, that they will.

You'll love your choice no natter what it is.

Larry

LOL. I'll stop when you stop ;) And I am not looking for a definitive answer, but just trying to understand the differences between the pictures one can achieve between the two units and this thread has been a big help actually.

What I hear is that no matter how much you know you can never tweak the S1 to be like the V10 since the colors in the V10 are factory set. But that just doesn't make sense to me and now i am wondering (hey I am an engineer so this stuff fascinates me), what is it one is calibrating if not (among other things) the color when one is doing a calibration? At the risk of simplification is a 'green' that you are tweaking not the same 'green' on the S1 and the V10 or is it more realistic on the V10? And when you enter THX mode on the V10 what is that mode actually doing to the colors?

Only in the THX mode, which the G, V and Z models have, but the others don't.
Otherwise, in custom mode they are essentially identical in terms of IQ including color points and decoders.

LOL. I'll stop when you stop ;) And I am not looking for a definitive answer, but just trying to understand the differences between the pictures one can achieve between the two units and this thread has been a big help actually.

What I hear is that no matter how much you know you can never tweak the S1 to be like the V10 since the colors in the V10 are factory set. But that just doesn't make sense to me and now i am wondering (hey I am an engineer so this stuff fascinates me), what is it one is calibrating if not (among other things) the color when one is doing a calibration? At the risk of simplification is a 'green' that you are tweaking not the same 'green' on the S1 and the V10 or is it more realistic on the V10? And when you enter THX mode on the V10 what is that mode actually doing to the colors?

An engineer would have found this stuff in 5 minutes:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1021933
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=585527

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1127194
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1137650
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1128052

All your answers are there.


And this tells you how to calibrate:
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Larry

Thanks, I'll take a look.

I know the OP is touchy about his thread going OT, but I can’t find either of these models anywhere in Virginia. What’s up with Panasonic not having them available?

Sorry for intruding OP, but we’d have hundreds of additional threads if we didn’t go slightly OT at times.

Thanks, I'll take a look.

And an engineer would have found the acknowledged expert in the field for engineering level information.

http://www.poynton.com/

Larry

I know the OP is touchy about his thread going OT, but I can’t find either of these models anywhere in Virginia. What’s up with Panasonic not having them available?

Sorry for intruding OP, but we’d have hundreds of additional threads if we didn’t go slightly OT at times.

The Panasonic site lists them as back ordered.

Larry

Only in the THX mode, which the G, V and Z models have, but the others don't.
Otherwise, in custom mode they are essentially identical in terms of IQ including color points and decoders.

So I guess that means if one doesn't care about THX mode (or 24p, IPTV, RS232, extra HDMI port and PC input for that matter) and is using custom mode and wants to save money then one might as well buy the S1 as the IQ will be the same as the V10.

Woohoo, finally. :)
Yes.
Now you have to determine if that list is worth the cost difference.
Then you are done. ;)

Hey I didn't graduate at the top of the class like you! ;)

If you can get access to the Panasonic Direct Employee discount - even the 65v10 is sub $2900. Crazy to think what a 65" top of the line plasma went for 3 years ago ($10,000+).

Try $2,400. :eek: At least it was a few weeks ago.

V10 will simply give you more "tweakability". CNET has reviewed both and S1 and a V1. from my eyes - in any best buy, magnolia, Frys or other store - v10 always looks to have a bit "less" noisy pic - but who really knows - I am sure when you get either home you will be happy.

That is interesting. When I helped my brother shop around for a TV last year, the 80u looked significantly noisier than the 800u, side by side, same source. He still got the 80u as we both felt it was the better value.

My close friend has worked for Panasonic for a long time, and I advised him to get a crazy deal that was available to him on the 50" S1, that was available to him for only a day. It's 95% TV there anyways (3:2 is sort of moot).

I sent him along this well written 7 page calibration guide that I found in the S1 thread after browsing my search results, letting him know that his mileage may vary due to room conditions, varying default settings, and unit to unit variation in general. He's not obtaining software with colorimeter or spectroradiometer, but it's more than what he would do otherwise. He was quite complimentary about the guide in how well written it was.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=28SRA7GZ

An engineer would have found this stuff in 5 minutes:

I'm going to steal your line one day. :D

Our mutual friend has ordered the 65" V10 quite a while ago, and he's still awaiting shipment. I guess these are really hard to come by.

btw, at risk of POing the OP for going OT, can someone PM me a recommendation for a swivel mount for a 65", hopefully over spec'd for weight. I did run a few searches, but hey, I'm not an engineer, but an artist of sorts. :p Searching on my friend's behalf, I never owned a flat panel either, just a PJ here, TYVM.

If you can get access to the Panasonic Direct Employee discount - even the 65v10 is sub $2900.

I show $2300ish for s1 and $2880ish v10...at that diff, I go v10.


WOW! I just found out I have Panasonic employee pricing through work - I just picked up the 65v10 for $2880+tax with free shipping.

Thanks for the post GBFreek - You saved me $1120! It ships in 3 weeks.

Martin

The employer program must be pretty wide spread. I have it through work as well. I almost pulled the trigger because the price on the 65v10 was so good but decided to get a Denon 4810 instead and will wait until next Christmas to upgrade to a new TV since my current TV is still doing a great job and my Integra 9.1 receiver was more outdated (no HDMI switching).

The employer program must be pretty wide spread. I have it through work as well. I almost pulled the trigger because the price on the 65v10 was so good but decided to get a Denon 4810 instead and will wait until next Christmas to upgrade to a new TV since my current TV is still doing a great job and my Integra 9.1 receiver was more outdated (no HDMI switching).

The savings on the 65v10 more than covered the price of the Pioneer Elite SC-25 I had my eye on. It was like I got it for free.

Martin

So I guess that means if one doesn't care about THX mode (or 24p, IPTV, RS232, extra HDMI port and PC input for that matter) and is using custom mode and wants to save money then one might as well buy the S1 as the IQ will be the same as the V10.

Woohoo, finally. :)
Yes.
Now you have to determine if that list is worth the cost difference.
Then you are done. ;)

But, actually if you are happy with Custom Mode, I just noticed that the V10 has Pro Settings in Custom Mode that the S1 does not have in Custom Mode, so you couldn't possibly tweak them the same to get the same IQ.

If there are white balance controls in the V10's SM, that would make a nice bit of difference. I did not know that.

The V10 manual shows the following can be set in the Pro Settings menu. Not all these settings are available for the S1 (certainly not the white balance settings):


Reset to defaults: Resets all Pro setting adjustments to factory default settings. (Set/No)
W/B high R: Adjusts the white balance for light red areas.
W/B high B: Adjusts the white balance for light blue areas.
W/B low R: Adjusts the white balance for dark red areas.
W/B low B: Adjusts the white balance for dark blue areas.
Black extension: Adjusts the dark shades of the image in gradation.
Gamma adjustment: Gamma correction. Adjusts the intermediate brightness of the image. (Normal/Mid/Full 1/Full 2)
Panel brightness: Selects the display panel brightness.
(High: Vivid, Mid: Standard, Low: Studio ref)
Contour emphasis: Adjusts the contour emphasis of the image. (On/Off)
AGC: Increases the brightness of dark signal automatically. (On/Off)
Save as default: Save all “picture” (when “Picture mode” is “Custom”) and “Pro setting” adjustments.

White level would be utilized...I suppose the gamma and brightness settings would be also.
I would assume the others would be set to off or default.
If there wasn't such a premium on the V10......imho it is priced much too high compared to its' siblings.

The V10 manual shows the following can be set in the Pro Settings menu. Not all these settings are available for the S1 (certainly not the white balance settings):

[snip]

White balance adjustments are available in the service menu of the S1.

Of all the other items, to me the gamma adjustment is most significant omission in the S1. On the other hand, the factory set gamma on the S1 is quite good.

Larry

So, I guess my persistence paid off and the information I received at the beginning of this thread was not correct. I am glad I did not stop researching, reading and checking the forums as someone had suggested.

I will summarize for the benefit of others who had the same question as me and were comparing the P65S1 and P65V10 image quality and do not care about the other features of the unit (such as Viera Cast (IPTV), extra HDMI port, PC Input, 24p Cinematic Playback, THX & BBE VIVA HD3D sound and RS232C port). Correct me if I am wrong on any of this (I know you guys will ;):

If you want the benefit of THX mode you have to get the V10 because the S1 does not have it, but whether THX is worth it is a personal choice and viewing that mode is the only way to know. You cannot tweak the S1 to provide a THX mode because the colors (or whatever is required) to provide that mode are factory set and cannot be tweaked into existence.

If you don't care about the THX mode then the differences between the image quality that the S1 and the V10 can provide do narrow. Both the V10 and S1 have a Custom Mode but the V10 has an additional 'Pro Settings' mode with more 'tweakability' (see page 59 of the P65V10 manual available on Panasonic's site or scroll back a couple posts to see these settings). EDIT: Apparently, the white balance settings in the Pro Settings menu of the V10 are available in the Service Menu of the S1 (somewhat less accessible but still available), as reported by LarryInRI, above, but not all of the other adjustments. Both units, btw, provide the same levels of gradation (6,144). Some data sheets showing different levels are a misprint.

Other than that the V10 has 'x.y.color' and 'sub-pixel control' and the S1 doesn't. There is virtually no source material employing x.y.color so it's a moot point. I haven't been able to find anything anywhere that discusses whether sub-pixel control provides a better picture or not but it sounds good as it seems to do some interpolation between different images at the pixel level.

EDIT: By the way, at http://hdtvbychadb.com/reviews.htm you can find a comparison of a number of calibrated plasmas, including the V10 (he used the 54" for this) and the S1 (I can't find which size he used for this). Chad, the person who did the calibration posts quite a bit on here. For example, see: Click on the arrow. He gives a higher total score across a variety of attributes of 45 to the V10 than to the S1 which received a total score of 37. The difference between the two was largely due to the V10 receiving a higher score in the 'Color' category (10 for the V10 and 5 for the S1). But, he tested the V10 using the THX mode, which some people seem to like and some don't (and the test was done after a recent firmware update - apparently there was a problem with THX before the update) but tested the S1 using the Cinema Mode. As such, maybe that is not the best comparison to make if you are trying to decide between the two units and don't care about THX mode. I haven't found a comparison in this detail between two V10 and S1 models in Custom Mode, calibrated or not, in any size. By the way, Custom Mode appears to be the mode in which the units can be tweaked to look the most similar.

I doubt that I'll be unhappy at all if I get the S1 instead of the V10 and save over $1,200 in the process as once it's in my house I won't have any other reference point and it's far better than what I have now (a 50" PX77U 720p unit I bought 2 years ago). Whether you will or not is really a personal choice on whether the V10 picture looks appreciably better to you over the S1 in Custom Mode and is therefore worth paying the extra money for and no amount of reading or checking forums on here is going to tell you that. I knew that from the beginning, but I still wanted to understand what the exact differences were between the two units and now I pretty well know.

Regardless of which unit I end up buying I'll have it professional calibrated to extract the best possible picture out of the unit.

White balance adjustments are available in the service menu of the S1.

Of all the other items, to me the gamma adjustment is most significant omission in the S1. On the other hand, the factory set gamma on the S1 is quite good.

Larry

Thanks, even more of a reason while I'll likely get the S1 (especially with professional calibration).

eonibm,

That's a good choice. With the money saved, after your calibration you can buy a few Blu-ray disks.

BTW, the Cinema mode in Warm temperature on the S1 will give you a picture quality on par with the V10 albeit with a wee bit less accurate color.

Larry

So, I guess my persistence paid off and the information I received at the beginning of this thread was not correct. I am glad I did not stop researching, reading and checking the forums as someone had suggested.

I will summarize for the benefit of others who had the same question as me and were comparing the P65S1 and P65V10 image quality and do not care about the other features of the unit (such as Viera Cast (IPTV), extra HDMI port, PC Input, 24p Cinematic Playback, THX & BBE VIVA HD3D sound and RS232C port). Correct me if I am wrong on any of this (I know you guys will ;):

If you want the benefit of THX mode you have to get the V10 because the S1 does not have it, but whether THX is worth it is a personal choice and viewing that mode is the only way to know. You cannot tweak the S1 to provide a THX mode because the colors (or whatever is required) to provide that mode are factory set and cannot be tweaked into existence.

If you don't care about the THX mode then the differences between the image quality the S1 and the V10 can provide narrow. The V10 provides a Custom Mode and so does the S1 but the V10 has an additional 'Pro Settings' mode with more 'tweakability' that the S1 does not have (see page 59 of the P65V10 manual available on Panasonic's site or scroll back a couple posts to see these settings). Both units, btw, provide the same levels of gradation (6,144). Some data sheets showing different levels are a misprint.

Other than that the V10 has 'x.y.color' and sub-pixel control and the S1 doesn't. There is virtually no source material employing x.y.color so it's a moot point. I haven't been able to find anything anywhere that discusses whether sub-pixel control provides a better picture or not but it sounds good as it seems to do some interpolation between different images at the pixel level.

I doubt that I'll be unhappy at all if I get the S1 instead of the V10 and save over $1,200 in the process as once it's in my house I won't have any other reference point and it's far better than what I have now (a 50" PX77U 720p unit I bought 2 years ago). Whether you will or not is really a personal choice on whether the V10 picture looks appreciably better to you over the S1 and is worth paying the extra money for and no amount of reading or checking forums on here is going to tell you that. I knew that from the beginning, but I still wanted to understand what the exact differences were between the two units and now I pretty well know.

Regardless of which unit I end up buying I'll have it professional calibrated to extract the best possible picture out of the unit.

Your graciousness preceeds you.

Thanks for "pulling" the differences out into the open.

Very helpful!
Steve

S1 for me too....now I have a 55" bedroom set.

Your graciousness preceeds you.

Too bad some people have a chip on their shoulder and have to get snarky when someone is just trying to help and posts relevant information for others. Be nice to people. Life works better that way!

BB dropped the S1 another $100, and are doing free money....I may have to make a call. The S1 might even make the Seahawks look good.....

BB dropped the S1 another $100, and are doing free money....I may have to make a call. The S1 might even make the Seahawks look good.....

What's 'free money'?

Well..it's only free for 36 months.

BB dropped the S1 another $100, and are doing free money....I may have to make a call. The S1 might even make the Seahawks look good.....

Well..it's only free for 36 months.

Don't let BB sucker you in to that one. I purchased a laptop on a 24 month same as cash promotion several years ago. They started adding interest after 6 months. I fought wtih them for the next 4-1/2 years. I paid 100% of the original purchase price off within 24 months. I corresponded with them sending documented proof of their mistake over and over again. I sent the same to the BBB and three different States Attorney Generals all to absolutley no avail.

Bottom line they screwed my credit rating for 5+ years and nearly cost me a home loan. My credit is perfect except for their "delinquency". In the long run I had to pay what I supposedly owed to a collection agenct to get my mortgage.

I refuse to step foot in those scumbag stores.

Martin

Too bad some people have a chip on their shoulder and have to get snarky when someone is just trying to help and posts relevant information for others. Be nice to people. Life works better that way!

Everything you learned and posted can be found right here by clicking on 'get support' and downloading the owner's manuals.
http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Televisions/VIERA-2009-HDTVs-Series.130502_11002_7000000000000005702

To be snarky: The whole thread was irrelevant.

Larry

Everything you learned and posted can be found right here by clicking on 'get support' and downloading the owner's manuals.
http://www2.panasonic.com/consumer-electronics/shop/Televisions/VIERA-2009-HDTVs-Series.130502_11002_7000000000000005702

To be snarky: The whole thread was irrelevant.

Larry

I know where the manual is LOL. Anyway, if people want to spend hours and hours deciphering the manuals and trying to figure out what things mean, that's their perogative. And, even after doing that it's not always possible to understand everything. I certainly didn't and many others on here don't either. Um, this is why we have threads and forums. Anyway, it's now here in a concise format. I suggest you keep your snide comments to yourself and move on if you already know everything in this thread and it upsets you so much.

Cheers.

Anyone check out sears.com... The 54s1 is $1099. add 10% off for using the sears cc and 8% off for bing and we are talking the deal of the holiday season. $909 before tax

That is a good deal on the 54". I've used BB same as cash on more than one occasion without trouble. Just pay on time, and all is well. I was able to snag the 65S1 for less than their new advertised price as of today.

That is a good deal on the 54". I've used BB same as cash on more than one occasion without trouble. Just pay on time, and all is well. I was able to snag the 65S1 for less than their new advertised price as of today.

How did you do that?

Called the store and talked with the on duty manager. Told them I have been watching fluctuating prices on 65S1 set on line, and said if they came down to my level I would order now. They immediately took the offer, so there was probably even more room. I was happy enough though and ordered. People have been buying these for 2200-2400, and I'd say that's about right. It is hard to beleive a screen this size selling at that price point...but in a few years I'm sure we'll look back and say... what! I paid a wee bit more for my 55" Hitachi to say the least.

And, what was your level?

Only $100 less than advertised. Very close to previous on-line pricing, and if there is trouble with the unit their close. Amazon is asking more right now, so with the lower advertised price, and the extra $100, it was time.