Welcome to the Tucson, AZ official all-in-one HDTV Thread. The next few posts will provide a central reference for the current state of affairs in Tucson. Please post any new info or corrections so we may keep this updated frequently. Thank you.

This post contains the current OTA DTV status for Tucson. The following posts are reserved for Cable and other station info.

OTA DTV (Mt. Bigelow):
{Station – Ntwk - (UHF Ch)}
{V-Name - V-Ch – Audio – Prog - Res}
KVOA-DT – NBC - (23)
KVOA-DT - 4.1 - 2CH - HD - 1080i
KUAT-DT – PBS - (30)
KUAT-SD -2CH - SD - 780x480
KUAT-KID - 2CH - SD - 704x480
KUAT-V-Me - 2CH - SD - 704x480
KUAT-Create - 2CH - SD - 704x480
KGUN-DT – ABC - (16)
KGUN-DT - 9.1 - DD5.1 – HD - 720p
KMSB-DT – FOX - (25)
KMSB-DT - 11.1 - DD5.1 – HD - 720p
KOLD-DT – CBS - (32)
KOLD-DT - 13.1 - DD5.1 – HD - 1080i
KOLD-DT2 - 2CH - SD - 704x480 (Weather/NewsNow)
KOLD-Tube "To Be Announced" - 2CH - SD 704x408
KTTU-DT – UPN - (19)
KTTU-DT - 18.1 - 2CH – SD - 1080i
OTA (Non-Mt. Bigelow DTV Stations):
KUAS-DT - PBS - (28)
KUAS-DT - 27.1 - 2CH – HD - 1080i
KWBA-DT – CW - (44)
KWBA-DT - 58.1 - 2CH – SD - 1080i
KWBA-DT2 - 58.2 - 2CH - SD - 704x480
KHRR-DT – TEL - (42)
KHRR-DT1 40.1 - 2CH - SD - 704x480 641mhz
KUVE-DT1 - 46.1 - 2CH - SD - 704x480 671mhz
KUVE DT2 - 46.2 - 2CH - SD - 704x480 671mhz

Links:
See http://www.silicondust.com/wiki/hdhomerun/channels for up-to-date list of OTA channels - Enter zip code.
See www.antennaweb.org for pointing info relative to your location.
See http://titantv.com for HD programming info.

Comcast Local DTV and other non-premium HD Channels
KGUN-DT ABC (210) (9-1 QAM tuner - 720p)
KVOA-DT NBC (211) (4-1 QAM - 1080i)
KOLD-DT CBS (212) (13-1 QAM - 1080i)
KMSB-DT FOX (213) (11-1 QAM - 720p)
KWBA-DT CW (214) (58-1 QAM - 1080i)
KTTU-DT MYTV (215) (18-1 QAM - 1080i)
KUAT PBS-DT (220) (6-1 QAM - 1080i)
KUAT PBS-DT1 KUAT6 (202) (98-4 QAM - 480i)
KUAT PBS-DT2 Kids (200) (2-0 QAM - 480i)
KUAT PBS-DT3 V-Me (201) (3-0 QAM - 480i)
KUAT PBS-DT4 Create (?) (0-0 QAM - 480i)

Mojo (226) (1080i)
FOOD (217) (1080i)
A&E (221) (1080i)
HGTV (222) (1080i)
NGCHD (223) (1080i)
DHDTV (225) (1080i)
MHD (227) (1080i)
UHD (250) (1080i)
VSGLF (251) (1080i)
ESPN-DT (252) (1080i)
ES2HD (253) (1080i)

COX Local DTV
KTTU-DT MYTV (702) (108-1 QAM - 1080i)
KVOA-DT NBC (704) (103-4 QAM - 720p)
KUAT-DT PBS (706) (105-1 QAM - 1080i)
KWBA-DT CW (708) (76-1 QAM - 1080i)
KGUN-DT ABC (709) (106-2 QAM - 720p)
KMSB-DT FOX (711) (76-2 QAM - 720p)
KOLD-DT CBS (713) (106-1 QAM - 1080i)
KUAT-DT2 PBS Kids 80 (105-3 QAM)
KUAT-DT3 PBS V-Me 81 (76-3 QAM - 704x480)
KUAT-DT4 PBS Create 82 (106-3 QAM - 704x480)

For more COX listing info see THIS (http://www.mythtv.org/wiki/index.php/Working_QAM_cable_layout#Tucson.2C_AZ_85705_-_Cox) page.
COX Contact info:
COX.net (http://www.cox.net/) page, or for issues regarding HD content:
anne.doris@cox.com
Debbie.Cullen@cox.com

Current status of HD programming: KOLD (13)
Bad lip sync issues. Uses same tower as 4, 11, and 18 at Bigelow. Fiber optic feed direct to Comcast cable.
Contact: Chief Engineer, Stewart Romain 744-1313 Ext. 283, or choose the breaking news option after hours and complain when HD is broadcast in SD.
KVOA (4)
Stable signal.
Uses time delay server.
Contact: Gary Nielsen, General Manager of KVOA, at GNielsen@KVOA.com
KGUN (9)
Stable, good sound. Current D-16 now VHF antenna on 200ft tower completed by July 20, 05(?), with 10KW power and de-icer. Repeater by Mar’06 on Tumamoc hill for NW side. Can anyone get them off-air anymore?
Contact: webmaster@kgun9.com
KMSB (11)
Stable picture, good sound, strong signal. Signal provided by KTVK in PHX. Antenna on same tower as 4 , 13 and 18 at Bigelow.
Contact: Jim Cole at KTVK Ch. 3 Phoenix 602-207-3369.
Or manager@kmsb.com for local issues.
KTTU (18)
No HD on the few programs that are broadcast that way. Though upconverted SD is very sharp compared to KOLD or KGUN due to different equipment used. Antenna on same tower as 4, 11 and 13 at Bigelow.
KUAT (6)
University station. Has its own tower on Bigelow. 5 subchannels.
KUAS (27)
Tower on Tumamoc Hill (behind ‘A’ Mtn.).
KWBA (58)
Broadcasts in HD.
Contact: mpowas@kwba.com

Hold for future use.

Hold for future use.

Hold for future use.

So Ryan, you went ahead and got the 165. I, too, was wondering if the 165 offered any advantages over the 151 (disregarding the digital out). Component switching is not an issue; I've got four component inputs on the scaler and four more on the pre/pro.

I am concerned about being able to receive signals from Mt. Bigelow here on the North side (Sunrise/Craycroft). I'm willing to put up a serious antenna, although I can't go crazy with height in deference to neighbors. Any suggestions?

HMmm, I live out west of Tucson .....South and west of the Desert Museum. I have a Sony HD 200 STB for OTA and Directv and I noticed htis morning in my channel guide .....a channel 13.1 KOLD digital designation. However no signal is present. I thought KOLD would be channel 32. Is this just the way the Sony handles this? Is the fact that the Sony was able to scan and find a channel 13.1 an indication that I will have a strong enough signal once they go live? www.antennaweb.org strangely indicates the direction of broadcast for channel 32 KOLD to be north, north west of my location which woold not indicate Mt. Bigelow. I know that is where the tower is. Of course antenna web is indicating I will not need a new antenna as it falls in the yellow zone for my address. I would think that the Tucson Mt range might well get in the way.

Originally posted by Dave Milne
So Ryan, you went ahead and got the 165. I, too, was wondering if the 165 offered any advantages over the 151 (disregarding the digital out). Component switching is not an issue; I've got four component inputs on the scaler and four more on the pre/pro.

I am concerned about being able to receive signals from Mt. Bigelow here on the North side (Sunrise/Craycroft). I'm willing to put up a serious antenna, although I can't go crazy with height in deference to neighbors. Any suggestions?

Besides the firewire output for SVHS (which I don't have, or want) and the component in, there are no advantages to the 165 over the 151. I do use the comp in though, and I'm not suffering any of the "wavy picture" symptoms that many people are seeing. Maybe I just got lucky, let's hope so. It's a good unit from what I have seen, but until we get some more HDTV stations broadcasting around here I won't be able to see how much I like it for nightly TV watching.

Any news on the front here?

As of right now KOLD DT CBS is showing "Under Review" on the www.antennaweb.org site. I am beginning to think we will not see CBS HD in time for the big dance here in Tucson. Last I had heard from the chief engineer at KOLD was that they would go live sometime in March. Truth is I am beginning to wonder if they will ever go live.

Actually, it looks like all the stations that had Feb 28 before are showing "Under Review" now. That includes KVOA and KUAT.

I wouldn't put too much stock into that website anyway. After all, they list the orientation for KOLD-DT as being somewhere on the west side of town. In any case, I have a feeling we won't see much happening until the snow melts sometime in June :mad:. I think I may call KOLD next week.

I keep going and scanning, Grrrr Nothing.. though PBS has 4 chanels up, only one broadcasting.. I say all of us with HD tv's and tuners go visit KOLD and the thoers with torches, rocks and clubs.. We can then escort them to the mountan to turn the tower on :)

I am not sure torches and vigilantes will help out any. I guess we will get DTV OTA when we get ...whenever that happens to be. I spose you guys are aware that DIrectv is finally going to offer locals in Tucson by the end of June? That wont help with OTA DTV but its a step oout of the stone age for us D users.

Maybe I missed some big announcement, but how does DTV locals help anything? Dish already has all locals plus CBS in HD. Are you trying to say that DTV is offering all locals in HD? That would definitely change the outlook on things :).

Nope, only that Directv is finally going to have the locals via satellite by the end of June. That does not mean they are to be HD only that they will finally be available for those of us who have been unable to get NBC and ABC and PBS, FOX clearly via a roof top antenna. I have yet to invest in a high powered UHF antenna and I cant get good singnals for anything other than CBS channel 13 , UPN 18, and WB channel 58. Everything else is to poor to watch at the moment with what I have on the roof. I got waivers from NBC and ABC locals to allow Directv to provide me the east and west coast feeds of those networks years ago but they are not HD ....nor is the
feeds from west and east for FOX. I live in the shadow of those mountains between the Desert Museum and Tucson so all I get cleanly with my current antenna is analog 13, UPN 18 and channel 58. My Sony Sat HD 200 must have scanned something from CBS DT at some time because the channel guide shows 13.1 KOLD DT but currently obviously no signal is present. I am going to wait and see if on the off chance I will be able to get a viewable HD signal from KOLD once they do start up. If not It will be off to radio shack for the biggest , meanest preamped antenna they carry with a rotator.

Originally posted by Burke55
... If not It will be off to radio shack for the biggest , meanest preamped antenna they carry with a rotator. I already did exactly that, but I am still wondering if I will have good luck. And I am on the other side of those mountains (Tucson side), but have the Catalinas mostly in the way. I have to use cable to get all those stations you spoke of.

Left messages and emails for Chuck Amy at KOLD. Never get any replies. Anyone else want to give it a shot?

www.antennaweb.org now says March 14th ...next Friday.....I guess we can hope this is accurate.........

Originally posted by Burke55
www.antennaweb.org now says March 14th ...next Friday.....I guess we can hope this is accurate......... Interesting.

I wonder why KOLD-DT is always shown at the other end of town. I'm sure this error is why it doesn't even show up in the list for my address or zip. I have to enter some mid-town zip to get it to show up. The other stations are all in the right place for Bigalow. It makes me wonder how accurate their other info is.

Yup, Its a mystery to me. I even sent an email to web.org to advise them that their info seems flawed. Chuck at KOLD replied to me as much via email. He said they are wrong....they never replied. All I know is that my HD STB has scanned something that indicates KOLD 13.1 DT....I just hope the signal happens to be strong enough to allow a clear image when they go live on the fourteenth. I am going to assume this is the case. lets keep our fingers crossed. On another note my boss entered his address and he lives out in Oro Valley right in the backyard of the Catalinas.....web.org gives no indication of KOLD DT for his address

I sent an email to the station manager at KOLD about their live date and he confirmed that weather has been a problem but that they still expect to be live by late March.

So I guess that is a "No" on going live this Friday. :( But if they go live before April we'll still get the Final Four in HDTV.

Originally posted by Burke55
I sent an email to the station manager at KOLD about their live date and he confirmed that weather has been a problem but that they still expect to be live by late March. Thanks! I'm glad someone got through to them. Maybe we'll see a test pattern or two by summer :rolleyes:

Well, we are experiencing true Spring weather the last three days so I would expect a thaw on Mt. lemmon at this time. I kind of wonder what would cause issues anyway.......unless the road is under so much snow that last little trek to Bigelow.

chuck also replied to my email today and said that the big snowstorm up there of several weeks ago caused the delay and that they still hope to be live in time for the final four!

Hi all.... I am in Catalina and am getting HD from PBS Via OTA and Directv
HD. I am using the Zenith HD-SAT520 and triple feed horn dish
for Directv HD and a large Radioshack yagi for OTA HDTV.
I also have gotten hits on the Zenith for 13-1 and 27-1 27-2 27-3
27-4 27-5. The signal from 27-1 is a little better than HDnet
channel 199. I was very surprised by the programing move from
27-5 to 27-1.

KUAS-DT comes in on 28-1 on my MyHD card (at ~80%) with large Radio Shack yagi on the west side.

Are you saying there is some other PBS channel live OTA, as well?

Sorry about that .... I meant KUAS-DT and it comes in on 27-1 in Catalina.
I am aimed toward the southwest, what ever that mountain is with all
the UHF distribution. My Yagi is about six feet above my house. I have been thinking if there is any problems when the rest of the local HD channels
come on line I may put a larger Yagi on my forty foot Ham Radio tower.
Well Carey P that is interesting. I tried to do a search on the Zenith
for 28-1 and came back with *No such channel*. Maybe they are putting
out more than one signal from a different location.

Carey P..... I took this off of KUAS-DT forum.....

kuat
Date / Time: 03/10/03 10:31 AM
Subject: DTV channels
Message: The difference is a bit technical, so I will provide the simplest answer first and then hit a few of the details. If you receive the signal you do not have to worry about the channel displayed on your set.
The channel displayed on your set is dependent upon the type of receiver and the version of software you have. Some viewers may see 27-1, 27-2, 27-3, 27-4, 27-5, or 28. The standards were still being determined when earlier DTV sets were released.
More recent receivers have the ability to decode Program and System Information Protocol (PSIP). (More info on this at http://www.nab.org/scitech/psip/default.asp) The protocol allows a station to send additional informational data along with the signal. This is why your receiver displays the channel information as 27-1.
Information provided by Chris O. and David R., KUAT

Thanks. This is what I thought. The PSIP has to do with the Virtual Channels settings in the MyHD software, which can make it different than what it really is.

Hmmm....www.antennaweb.org seems to have gotten their **** together and now KOLD DT seems to be originating from Bigelow as we all know it is.
Now their website does not show KOLD DT when I input my home address.

Tiki torches from Home Depot $29.95
Baseball bats from play it again sports $9.95

Mob of 500 Tucson people with a blank screen on thier HDTV

Look on Chuk Amy's face as he places emergeny call to the engeneer to turn the tower on right away, priceless....

:-)

Wheww....what a game .....I will lose no sleep if we never have to face Gonzaga again. No wonder they are called bracket busters. Todays game was the most exciting nerve wracking ...edge of the seat game possible. All I can say is WOW I AM GLAD WE SURVIVED. Az moves on to the sweet sixteen.

Ohh do I hope they get the antenna up in say.. the next week or so. :) I really want to see some of these games in HD

I recently got my replacement HD-200 so I've been playing around quite a bit and I finally was able to pick up PBS on 27.1, Great Picture! But today I scanned 30 and it remapped to 6.1 and I guess it's KUAT from Mt. Bigelow! Also a great picture and easier for me to get(same stuff as 27.1 I think), but I guess this means they're finally transmitting from Bigelow!! Still nothing from KOLD though but hopefully SOON!!

Tom

Tom,

You're right! I pick it up as well, though comes in as 30-1 for me at 43% max signal strength. The picture is just as good as KUAS at 85%. This is good news, since this station is listed in the blue range by antennaweb, the same as the other network stations. This means I'll be able to pick them up as well with my cheapo RS antenna. Yippeeee!

They must be using the same antenna tower, so I wonder why KOLD is not up yet? Antennaweb still lists KUAT-DT as "under Review" like the rest, so maybe we should expect to see something real soon. Too bad KUAT is a mirror of KUAS. Can't seem to get away from the same old demo loops :(.

Carey

Tom,
Thanks for the tip, I tuned in and turned my antenna and I am able to receive it here in Scottsdale. I've built an antenna especially for KOLD and am extremely gratified that I can receive a signal from Mt Bigelow. Bring on KOLD! I may never watch KPHO again.

JG

Hey guys,

Are any of you tight with the engineers at KOLD? When do they think they will be up?

Randal

Originally posted by Cam Man
Hey guys,

Are any of you tight with the engineers at KOLD? When do they think they will be up?

Randal

As of the end of last week, the word was that they should be on the air before the 1st of May.

Sheesh, Its like waiting for the UN to agree on something.. One day we'll see it happen.

Yeah, Tommy Franks was tied up when the FCC was looking for somebody to get things moving ;)

I'll believe it when I see an HD picture on channel 13.1 KOLD DT through my Sony Sat-HD 200. Every time the date gets close it goes back to under review for a week or so then switches to a hard date. I finally got tired of sending emails to the folks at KOLD because I dont think they know one way or the other.

Looks like KWBA has their digital signal going. Channel 44 is lit. Haven't had a chance yet to see if they're showing HD programs from WB.

Bluestar,
Were you able to confirm KWBA is on the air with HD? Anybody else??

Yes, they were showing regular programming, last time I checked. I can only pull them in at 25 to 28% signal strength, so I get too many break-ups to be worthwhile. Just as well, since I never watch WB anyway.

Why the major stations can't go live, while these others have is beyond me. I hope they are suitably embarrassed! Yeah right :p. Next we'll see KTTU-DT...

according to Titan TV:
ABC 35 KGUN-DT Under Review
CBS 32 KOLD-DT May 1 2003
FOX 25 KMSB-DT Awaiting FCC Permit
NBC 23 KVOA-DT Jun 1 2003
PBS 30 KUAT-DT May 1 2003
TEL 42 KHRR-DT May 1 2003
UPN 19 KTTU-DT May 1 2003

How accurate are these? (since i havnt been fallowing closely) I plan on moving back to Scottsdale and hope that I can receive KOLD. :)

Originally posted by ragedogg69
How accurate are these? (since i havnt been fallowing closely) Not very. This is what it also says on antennaweb.org. As far as KOLD goes, they wait until their live date arrives and then extend it another month. This has been going on for a while now. Strange thing is, KUAT-DT is already live (albeit the same demo loop stuff as KUAS-DT) and they use the same tower. I'm hoping by next summer we'll see some other stations transmit from there as well :rolleyes:.

Does anyone know what the channel 44 WB is on satellite? the directv version I can't seem to find anything on 58-1 or 58-2, also tried 8-1 with no luck. thanks for any help toyzzzz

Originally posted by ragedogg69
according to Titan TV:
ABC 35 KGUN-DT Under Review
CBS 32 KOLD-DT May 1 2003
FOX 25 KMSB-DT Awaiting FCC Permit
NBC 23 KVOA-DT Jun 1 2003
PBS 30 KUAT-DT May 1 2003
TEL 42 KHRR-DT May 1 2003
UPN 19 KTTU-DT May 1 2003

How accurate are these? (since i havnt been fallowing closely) I plan on moving back to Scottsdale and hope that I can receive KOLD. :)

Well, remember the iraqi information minister? I think the information you will get from the folks at KOLD is about as accurate. I think they have no idea when they are going to begin broadcasting. Its bullshit. Today www.antennaweb.org has them as "under review" In a week or so or maybe less it will say June 01. Its so much bullshit.

Well said...unfortunately.

Well Burke... you said it. Now all of the stations listed as "May 1 2003" are now "under review". :mad: :mad:

The only shred of good news is that KWBA is shown at 162 degrees (if this is correct). That would put the transmitting antenna somewhere in the Rincons or Madera Canyon, not Bigelow. I should have no problem getting it here in the Foothills...

Well, last night I sat down at 8:00PM to watch "Smallville" in HDTV. The banner stating "presented in HDTV where available" with WBDT Tucson logo showed up in the bottom of the screen. But to my surprise it was NOT broadcasted in HD, it wasn't broadcasted in a widescreen format. I was severly disappointed. Is the Tucson WBDT station not yet broadcasting the actual HD versions of their few programs?

AZStarnet article on Tucson's DTV conversion

http://www.azstarnet.com/star/Wed/30507HDTV.html

I kinda liked the article....

Anyone in the Rita Ranch Area?

Thanks,
Aaron

The article is great! Informing the public and putting the broadcasters and other entities on the spot is good. HD coming to Cox Digital is VERY good.

Andreas, I bought a very modest antenna at Rat Shack that attaches to the mast of our DSS dish. It seems the good news is, unlike analog, you either have a perfect signal or none. In Tucson it appears that line of sight will be the biggest issue. We live on the far NE side, but with LOS with Bigelow. HD picture from KUAT is superb. Others in areas with LOS issues may have useful input to make here.

Randal

I gotta tell you...the RS antenna I use is so simple there wasn't any aiming to do. I am hearing this is common. I can understand that if weak signal is an issue, a different antenna may be required. Have you typed in your acutal future address? If so, you may do just fine on a simple, inexpensive model. Mine was $50.

Randal

Andreas,

There are plenty of threads here on antennas and amplifiers to use. I'm using a cheap ($3) RS Yagi type with their most powerful preamp and a rotor, and get KUAT at atleast 40% (which is enough, apparently) here on the west side of town, near the Tucson Mtns. If I have any trouble in the far distant future (when KOLD and the rest finally goes live), I may consider the CM 4228 8-bay UHF bowtie array and maybe the CM7777 or similar UHF preamp.

For now, it looks like the only hope for HD may be to switch from Comcast to COX come June, or just succumb to the never-ending delays and go with DISH and sell my MyHD card. Problem with all this is that I have broadband with Comcast at the moment.

Carey

Carey,

I dig your FP system. Did you assemble the equipment and install yourself? I dig the Panamorph. It is the way we do it in anamorphic cinematography...I've always thought it made sense to use it for video FP.

Randal
www.watchreels.com/randalfeemster

Thanks-
I was surprised the reporter called me, I guess he found me on the net somehow and I was easy to find since I did not have the last name of smith.

Anyway I am thinking of picking up a Terk TV55 antenna to get the local stations. Anyone have experience with this is this an overkill? As I do live in the Rita Ranch area I wonder what my chances are of picking up any signals at all are

Thanks,
Aaron

Thanks Randal.

Yes, it was all self-taught and self-installed with the help of the forums here. The Panamorph does the final trick for the 4:3 LCD panels. With the HTPC I'm able to get very near HD quality DVD video and superior sound. HDTV will be a nice addition when it becomes worthwhile for turning on the projector lamp ;).

Andreas-
I have been to that site several times and says I need a Small Multidirectional Antenna. I was just wondering if the terk tv55 was an over kill.

Thanks for your time,
Aaron

Aaron,

I live in the NW off Cortaro Rd. I tried the Terk TV55. It worked great for KUAS. However, I could not get a strong enough signal to get KUAT and WB. I purchased a $22 outdoor antenna from Radio Shack it works great. I get them all. I believe the Terk is worthless.

I agree, the Terk TV55 is worthless. Get a Radio Shack double bowtie antenna and be done with it. Search the HDTV forums for the part number of the double bowtie antenna.

I'm 100% new to exploring the HD idea in Tucson. I had heard back from the local stations, via e-mail, that they should be on air by now but it doesn't appear that all are. I'm at Golf Link/Prudence (midpoint between Kolb and Pantano) with no tall buildings around. I have unobstructed views of Tucson, Rincon and Catalina mountains. Based on the antennaweb.org site, I should be pretty good with something from the yellow category. What does that equate to? Product names/numbers?

I think it's time that Tucson, that hotbed of DTV activity, gets bumped to the head of the line--at least for a few hours. I understand that the combiner for a number of stations that are sharing a single panel antenna on Mt. Bigelow should be currently under test. I'm told that the stations involved in the community DTV antenna are KOLD (CBS), KVOA (NBC), and the two Belo stations, KTTU (UPN) and KMSB (Fox).

From my location in the Dove Mountain area, I can't "see" the Bigelow stations--at least not with an indoor antenna--because of the shadow cast to the northwest by Mt. Lemmon. Those who do have line of sight to Bigelow, however, should keep an eye out this week for test signals from these stations. Do a periodic scan to see if your receiver detects anything from KOLD-DT on channel 32, KVOA-DT on 23, KTTU-DT on 19 or KMSB-DT on 25. I'm anxious to see when these stations light up so that I can start experimenting with antennas.

I'm not going to hold my breath. :rolleyes:

However, KUAT has been transmitting from Bigelow for some time now. How come they wouldn't qualify as a good test? Are they on a different antenna? I thought it was the same. :confused:

Originally posted by Carey P
I'm not going to hold my breath. :rolleyes:

However, KUAT has been transmitting from Bigelow for some time now. How come they wouldn't qualify as a good test? Are they on a different antenna? I thought it was the same. :confused:

I'm relieved to hear that my message won't be inadvertently responsible for anyone's asphyxiation. Frankly, breathing takes priority over TV at our house too.

Regarding KUAT-DT, so I understand. I also believe that they are probably operating at low power, although I haven't confirmed that with the good folks at the station yet. The reason I suspect that is that while they have a Construction Permit for an ERP of 667 kW @ a HAAT of 1091 meters, they filed for Special Temporary Authority (STA) this past February to operate at 12.2 kW. If that proves to be the case, my chances of obtaining a useful signal from my vantage point is something less than negligible. (By the way, yes, they are on a different antenna. Why would you think otherwise?) Anyway, the only thing that would be proven in my "tests" is that I couldn't receive KUAT operating at low power. It would tell me nothing about the efficacy of one antenna configuration over another.

Note that this is a particular problem with DTV. If all that you have is a digital STB to verify reception with, you either have sufficient signal to noise to achieve at least intermittent lock or you see nothing. The fact that the STB registers no signal doesn't mean that there isn't an RF signal there, only that it isn't sufficiently robust to be recognized. With an analog signal, if there's a signal at all, you'll have something to work with. You can see if you've aimed the antenna properly and, if there are problems with reception, what they are (signal level, interference, multi-path, etc.).

Anyway, having several full-power DTV signals to access is the next best thing. Chances are, if reception is going to possible at all from my location, one or more of these signals will be recoverable with a little effort and that effort will be worth the bother.

In the meantime, I can receive KUAS-DT (28) and KWBA-DT (44), 16.5 miles and 50 miles to the south respectively, just fine with an indoor Silver Sensor.

Thanks for the clarification.

I can get KUAT reasonably well, especially at night. If it is really at low power, then I have a good chance of getting the higher power stations when they come on line (barring unforseen antenna configurations problems). That's good to know.

I know some of you guys are already members but for those of you who are not, you are welcome to also join us over at the HDTV Society of AZ website: http://pc-dtv.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=frm&s=692604811&f=5896031511

Keep fighting the good fight!

Anybody out there seeing any indications from KOLD? I stopped holding my breath several months ago.

As usual and per the SOP of the last five or six months www.antannaweb.org has KOLD as "under review" once again. what a joke.

Yes, it is a joke, and a sad one too. I think we should close this thread and reopen next year after the snows melt again. :rolleyes:

I dont know but I suspect we will see no DTV from Mt. Bigelow for a long time. it simply gives KOLD and the others greater excuse to further delay HDTV in Tucson which I have come to discern ...they have no real interest in anyway as it is not a money maker for them. It is a shame to see the destruction up there. My wife and I were up at Summerhaven just last Sunday for a short hike and lunch at the Mt. Lemmon Cafe. Now its all gone. It could have been prevented if the politics of environmentalism had not wrecked havoc. A little common sense thinning would almost certainly have prevented this fire from being so devastating. the forest service has been wanting to do this for years. In a bit of deja vu....I remember a little blurb in the Az Daily Star from several weeks ago noting that certain environmentalist activists were "distressed" that during last Summers Bullock fire ......fire fighters cut down some very old growth trees towards the top of the last ridge to help create the last firebreak to keep that fire from sweeping through Summerhaven and Ski Valley. If those morons had only allowed some common sense thinning as has been prescribed as a best practice by Forest Service professionals for years and years there is a very good chance those old trees would still be standing along with the Mt. lemmon Cafe. We can thank the liberal environmentalists for the destruction on Mt. Lemmon and further delays of DTV from Bigelow. Az has lost more natural resources in the last two summers than we should have dreamed of losing...all due to the environmentalists.

Just a heads up, I guess KVOA was going to start broadcasting this Friday June 27th, but has since been postponed, this was on the news last night I think or was it the night before, anway... just thought I would keep you all in the loop.

Aaron

Can anyone please give their opinions on what OTA HD signals I could pickup (with an indoor antenna) near Oracle & Rancho Vistoso Blvd.? My wife and I just got a Sony 36XBR800, though at this time we do not have an HD receiver.

Phil

Originally posted by cdrobot
Can anyone please give their opinions on what OTA HD signals I could pickup (with an indoor antenna) near Oracle & Rancho Vistoso Blvd.? My wife and I just got a Sony 36XBR800, though at this time we do not have an HD receiver.

Phil

That's a tough location with most of the DTV stations on Bigelow shielded from you by Mt. Lemmon. The only DTV's currently operating that you'll be able to see will be KUAS-DT on 28 (PBS), KWBA-DT on 44 (WB) and KHRR-DT on 42 (TEL). Of those, only KUAS-DT is offering HD programming. Point your antenna to the south (aimed at "A" Mountain downtown).

Thanks for the reply! I don't think I'll run out and buy an HD receiver just for PBS. We get DirecTV and I'm tempted to check out their HD offerings, but right now our DirecTivo box is more valuable to us. Maybe we'll just wait until the HD Tivo boxes come out someday. :)

antennaweb tells me that to pick up the digital and HD signals (whenever they all get here) all I need is a "yellow" antenna. Is a "yellow" adequate?
If so, is anyone on my side of town getting the PBS digital feed with a "yellow" antenna? Would anyone care to recommend a UHF antenna? I am in the tanque verde/ conestoga area. i've seen recs for radioschank bowties and references to terks. anyone using a winegard or channelmaster?

thanks

eric

to clarify...are all the locals going to be transmitting digitally off Mt. Bigelow? (eventually). If not, wouldn't a simple omnidirectional antenna work? Line-of-sight is not an issue for me to Bigelow, west side or south (My home is roughly at Tanque Verde and Conestoga). I just spoke to a Hans over at Winegard and he said if you're under 10 miles line-of-sight to Bigelow (which I obviously am) that a non-amplified directional antenna should be fine; if signals are coming ffrom elsewhere, then an omni would be perfect. Just FYI, he recommended their MS-1000 on a DS-1111 mount

Eric

Hey guys. This is a little OT, but it's a local question.

Can anyone recommend an ISF Calibration expert here in Tucson? And does anyone know of someone who can also do work under warranty with Toshiba?

My HDTV is about 7months old, and the blue CRT needs to be focused (it spreads outside of the white cross-hairs when I converge). I think a full convergence is also in order as I have noticed more and more blue/red lines at the bottom of the screen (especially in letter box movies). There may be some geometry issues causing this as well.

In another thread, someone told me that this is covered under the warranty, but I don't want to have to have someone take my TV into the shop, nor do I want someone who doesn't really know what they are doing working on it.

Last I checked there were only two repair companies in town that were working on Toshiba warranties... so I'm not sure if I have much choice.

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Matt

Hi Matt,

In this case I must be a shameless self-promoter. I am an ISF calibrationist...as part of my larger business. I would be happy to help you with the calibration. That said, I think you are very wise to address the issues you mention (geometry and convergence) as a warranty service. I presume that the convergence is as close as you can do with user adjustments, and it is still poor? This should be accomplished before your ISF calibration.

Unfortunately, I have no direct experience with either of the two service companies that service Toshiba. So I can't say if there is a convergence/geometry guru at either one.

If you would like, give me a ring and I can maybe get a better idea of how far off your set is, and help you come up with a plan of attack.

You are welcomed to visit the website to become familiar with us and give me a ring.

Best wishes,

Randy Feemster
Cinema-Pro Home Theatre
http://www.cinemaproht.com
760-3886

Hi Matt,

Thanks for giving me a call. Very sorry that I had to bail out a little soon.

Give me a call before you book your warranty service; there are a couple of things that you should know to ask them to make sure they come prepared, considering you are using the HD side of the set.

Thanks again.

Randy

Cam Man, do you work on Mits HDTV's?

Hi Mario,

Thanks for asking...

Only ISF calibration.

Randy

Oh, cool... What do you charge and do, etc...? Are you the guy that does the calibrations for Roh's?

Mario,

My prices are ISF standard. For a CRT RPTV that usually lands near $500, maybe a bit less depending on what is done such as SD, HD, multiple inputs, etc. The minimum time to accomplish is about three hours.

No I'm not the guy that does it for Roh's...not yet, anyway;)

Randy

area 51 in town also does calibrations.I spent around 325.

Hi, folks...first time poster, long time lurker.

Anyone know how the HD view is in the Ina and Shannon area? I don't know mountain names for anything.

Also, I'm interested in getting the Samsung T165. Does anyone know how compatable with Comcast Digital this box is? Not that important, though. OTA is really what I want.

EJ

I am not far from your location(Cortaro & Silverbell), I received both PBS(Ch 28) and WB (Ch 54) very well. I have the DirecTV RCA DTC-100 and Hughes HD-86 using two Zenith Silver Sensor antennas on the roof and both receivers are working fine (however I think the RCA is better for over-the-air broadcasts). BTW, why are you considering Comcast since DirecTV is able to receive locals in our area? In any case, good luck with your HD viewing!

Originally posted by Student of A/V
I am not far from your location(Cortaro & Silverbell), I received both PBS(Ch 28) and WB (Ch 54) very well. I have the DirecTV RCA DTC-100 and Hughes HD-86 using two Zenith Silver Sensor antennas on the roof and both receivers are working fine (however I think the RCA is better for over-the-air broadcasts). BTW, why are you considering Comcast since DirecTV is able to receive locals in our area? In any case, good luck with your HD viewing!

I didn't get DirecTV because I don't have a clear shot at Southeast (a hill). This is why I am concerned about "seeing" the HD channels. Your location is a bit more free and clear than mine, unfortunately.

EJ

EJ,

You might want to have a site survey done. For those of us in Tucson, the dish is pointing pretty much due south to pick up all three birds. I think that unless that hill is right up against your house, you should be ok to use DirecTV.

Tony

the message board has been somewhat dead since the Aspen fire. Does anyone have any new information about "going-live" dates for KGUN, KOLD, KVOA, and FOX?

Eric

Hello All-

Checked in with TRICO Electric about power on the mountain. The Mt. Lemmon substation manager told me that grid power had been completely restored to the mountain, including Mt. Bigelow.

Sent a note off to Ralph Turk (KVOA Chief Engineer) and he responded with the following...

Power is back and we hope to have SD digital up next week. HDTV to follow
but no firm date yet. Waiting for a server.
R.S.Turk, C.E.

Unquote

Since KVOA shares the antenna combiner with KMSB/KOLD/KTTU, they should be coming on line soon as well. Looks like things are rolling again.

Kirk

cbs 13-1 is up for kold tonight , but it is experiencing several audio drop-outs here with a signal of 99-100 on csi miami.

No Joy tonight (Fri).

OK, here's what I'm seeing with the DT transmission system in Tucson now
(using a Samsung SIR-T160)

KVOA/NBC-4

4-1 KVOA-HD Signal Level 100% showing SD Dr Phil
4-2 KVOA-SD1 Signal Level 100% showing SD Dr Phil
4-3 KVOA-SD2 Signal Level 100% showing SD placard

KUAT/PBS-6

6-1 KUAT-HD Signal Level 54%-63% showing HD PBS Demo Loop

KMSB/Fox-11

11-1 KMSB-HD Signal Level 0%

KOLD/CBS-13

13-1 KOLD-HD Signal Level 0%-36% No Picture

KTTU/UPN-18

18-1 KTTU-HD Signal Level 100% showing SD regular programming

Kirk

Wow. Things are looking up :)

Why is 4-1 KVOA-HD showing 4:3 format and 4-2 KVOA-SD1 showing stretched 16:9? Is that strange? On 4-3 I see a dark skycam image in 16:9 plus the regular audio. Can't wait to see if Leno is in HD tonight!

I certainly didn't expect to see KTTU-DT. Does this mean they will show Enterprise? :D I can toss DScaler!

KOLD gave me problems with my PC HD tuner, so I won't try them again until they fix their signal.

Darn! I was really hoping KVOA was going to pass the HD network feed. Leno was only in upconverted SD. Someone wake me when one of the major networks start showing true HD. Thanks.

As of Monday, four local network affiliate stations had begun launching their digital television transmissions. Making the upgrades were NBC affiliate KVOA, CBS affiliate KOLD and the local FOX and UPN stations.

AZStarnet has an article on the launch today of the new tower

Someone wake me when one of the major networks start showing true HD Is is true that the stations are coming on-line with OTA-HD but no actual HD programming??:mad:

I guess I'll put my STB purchase on hold for a while longer...:rolleyes:

So far, they don't seem to have the equipment to pass through the HD feed. So it's all upconverted SD for now. I have a call into KVOA on this very subject.

What I did find out in general from an Engineer at KTTU, is the following, regarding Bigalow stations:

CH13/4/18/11 are all on same digital tower. CH 4 has their analog tower there too. CH9 might build a new digital tower, but for now is planning to side mount their digital antenna on their analog tower if it holds the weight. They may have to build another tower. They will use a Solid State transmiter. However, their Oct 1st date won't be made. It's more going to be like the 1st of the year. They have their transmitter on the mountain, but it is not even installed yet. The University has their own tower for KUAS. The only real HD from the mountain so far.

FOX was to go live at same time as UPN, but still had some paperwork trouble with the FCC. They are expected to go live in a week. They should be using the 720p format.

UPN does not currently have any HD programming to pass thru to their HD signal, so it will be all upconverted SD for a while. Regarding Enterprise's 16:9 within a 4:3 within a HD 16:9 signal - this will stay the same, as all they do is pass thru what they get from the network feed. They will not expand this to full screen. Apparently, it is in 16:9 but not an HD program.

I asked why the upconverted UPN signal looked so much better than CBS or NBC upconverted material. He said they use different equipment and is probably better. He was also very pleased to hear that and was going to tell the other stations to get with it. You might notice that UPN is exceedingly sharp (almost HD like) compared to the fuzzy upconverted stuff on CBS/NBC.

He could not tell me why CBS has such a strange signal and dropouts. I leave that for someone who can get through to them to find out. Meantime, I'll wait to hear from KVOA.

Carey

I took a look one night this week at KOLD and was surprised to see what appeared to be HD in the 9-10pm block. I think the program is called Judging Amy? Geometry/aspect ratio was correct and looked good...when it was not breaking up. Did anyone else take a closer/longer look at this?

Has anybody tried to catch the weekly football on KOLD CBS-HD?

Talked to the guy who supposedly knows what's going on there. He says they still need a Time Delay Server to re-broadcast HD signals sent from the network. NBC won't delay it for them.

Until then, they will not pass HD signals as they come across (3 hrs earlier) for regular HDTV shows. This is to follow FCC guidelines. If there is some special event like a parade or something, which is normally shown real time, then they will pass it through to their HD channel - *IF* the network sends it to them.

He said the TDS is in their budget for this year and he doesn't know what make or model will be chosen yet. He expects it to be installed by end of year.

He had no clue what CBS is doing and whether they were getting one of these as well, or have the network delay the programming for them. He also indicated the stretched 4:3 signal on the KVOA-SD channel was not to be that way eventually.

Just caught a few minutes of King of Queens in glorious HD on KOLD-DT!
Wow, did it look nice on a 9ft screen :). My jaw dropped to the floor. My wife freaked out! Incredible to see a real life show in HD, instead of some PBS documentary.

Apparently they must have their Time Delay equipment or else the network delayed it for them. In any case, they seem to be still testing their equipment, as it quickly went to some other 4:3 news broadcast after that, and the audio went dead and the signal went to half power. Oh well.

Sure was an exciting few minutes though. At least we got a glimpse of what's in store for us soon.

Hi guys, I could use some assistance. I just received my Sony HD300 and have it all hooked up. Could someone let me know where I can find the local stations in Tucson? I am using a Silver Sensor antenna. I was able to get 13.1, 18.1, 27.1, 58.1. I couldn't find 4 KVOA, 9 KGUN or 11 KNSB.

Thanks,
Steve

Check antennaweb.org. It's all there. KVOA-DT is CH 23 (-1,-2,-3). KMSB-DT or KGUN-DT is not live yet (pay no attention to antennaweb predictions or status).

Carey,
Thanks for keeping us up to date. Your "Yikes!" post gave me goosebumps.

Steve,
What part of town are you in? I'm still nervous about plunking down $1K for STB, antenna, rotor, preamp, etc. only to find that I can't get anything because I'm tucked up against the mountains in North Central Foothills.

Dave

Carey thanks for the information!

Dave I am located in North Central Foothills also. The inexpensive Silver Sensor does a pretty good job. I think I have found all of the signals that are available except KVOA. I might be pointing in the wrong direction?? I have to say that HD programing (when you can find it) is pretty amazing

Steve

Just watched CSI and Without a Trace in glorious HD! Except for the occasional signal dropout which was kind of annoying. Anyone else get those too or is it just me? I otherwise receive the station at 58 to 64% which is stronger than any of the others from the same location. The sound and lipsync was excellent, however. And the commercials were not twice as loud like on KTTU-DT.

I have been successful in finding all of the local digital stations (4.1, 6.1, 13.1, 18.1, 58.1 etc.), but I can't locate KNSB channel 11. My HD300 locates channel 11.1 but I am unable to get any kind of signal. I thought that KNSB was transmitting from the same location as 4 and 13. I would appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks,

Steve

It is a much weaker station than most of the others. From where you're located, your better off getting their sister station KUAS-DT on the west side (WSW from you). Check antennaweb for pointing direction. I believe it contains the same programming (mostly HD demo stuff). Good luck.

Originally posted by Carey P
It is a much weaker station than most of the others. From where you're located, your better off getting their sister station KUAS-DT on the west side (WSW from you). Check antennaweb for pointing direction. I believe it contains the same programming (mostly HD demo stuff). Good luck. You have your stations confused. KMSB-TV is the Fox affiliate (analog 11/digital 25). KUAS-TV, a PBS station, is NOT their "sister". Perhaps you had KUAT-TV (analog 6/digital 30) in mind.

I stand corrected. I was thinking KUAT-DT. KMSB-DT is not even on the air yet. It's time I got some more sleep :o.

Carey - Thanks for the information. However, are you sure that KMSB-DT is not on the air yet? Their web site says they have been on the air for about one month. But since I can't find their signal, I am beginning to wonder. If anyone is receiving KMSB-DT I would appreciate knowing what direction your antenna is pointed!

Thanks,

Steve

As I said in my earlier post, KMSB is on the same tower as KOLD, KVOA, and KTTU. If you can get those and not KMSB, then it's a good bet they are not transmitting. I was told they went on the air for a few moments over a month ago when UPN went live, but had to shut down due to some FCC paper work problems. They were expected to be back on by now, so keep an eye out. They will broadcast in 720p.

Meanwhile, I'd like to know if you or anyone else is seeing the same signal dropouts and audio glitches on KOLD-DT. They happen about 4 or 5 times per hour. I'm going to try a different antenna soon to see if it's just me, but I don't see the same thing with the other channels. It's just that KOLD is finally showing all the HD shows, so I'm anxious to get a stable signal.

Carey

Originally posted by Carey P
Meanwhile, I'd like to know if you or anyone else is seeing the same signal dropouts and audio glitches on KOLD-DT. They happen about 4 or 5 times per hour. I'm going to try a different antenna soon to see if it's just me, but I don't see the same thing with the other channels. It's just that KOLD is finally showing all the HD shows, so I'm anxious to get a stable signal.

Carey

I heard from Chuck Amy the other day that they are working with an engineer to solve the dropout problems. Also, that they will be fixing the live sports sound problem. He did not give a timetable for these solutions other than "soon". It appears KOLD is at the mercy of the traveling engineer they've contracted with and are trying to get thinks in order. I also asked that the "bug" be toned down and he stated he would see about that. The last time I looked, it appeared the "bug" had gone away(Thur. evening).

It looks like they went down Fri. so I'm hoping that when they come back, things will have improved.

Tony

Tony,

Thanks for the report. If you're talking about that KOLD icon in the lower left, I was glad to see that gone too. The CBS watermark on the right is certainly sufficient. Thanks for telling them about that.

Last night I didn't see one real dropout during 2 1/2 hours watching, so they must have improved something. Only saw two "digital" glitches the whole time.

I never paid attention to the "live" audio dropouts, but they still have some serious dropouts on commercials, and many little short audio dropouts on programs. These are mostly noticeable during music or other continuous sounds. Once they get that licked we can work on them to equalize the volume on commercials! Then we'll have perfection :).

Carey

Looks like KMSB-DT FOX is finally back up (11-1). They also have the strongest signal (from my location, anyway).

Just made the plunge with OTA HDTV receiver. Everything works great, PBS has a beautiful signal. Was all set to watch the CBS HD NFL game Sunday (Jets vs. Eagles) but the signal I got on the CBS HD channel in Tucson was a 4:3 signal with sidebars. Does anyone know if the Tucson CBS HD channel is really HD or just a digital re-broadcast of standard def. I know my receiver is working because I pick up the PBS HD feed perfect in 16:9. The CBS web site indicates that this game was supposed to be in HD. Thanks for your help.

I am just wondering what different antenna's everyone is using and from what parts of town. I currently live on dm but am moving to sahuarita next month. According to both titantv and antennaweb I need a stronger antenna at dm than I will at my new house. How is that possible? also has anyone caught Law and Order in hd? Impressions? Thanks in advance for your inputs. Any suggestion are welcome for antenna selection.

I was using a cheap Yagi from Radio Shack (Like an RS 15-2160) which worked fairly well, and then installed a CM 4228A 8-Bay bowtie which gave me another 10% signal strength. Enough to freely get all the stations with no dropouts, except for KUAT-DT, which is still too weak (though KUAS-DT is fine). I have it on a rotator and am also using a hi-gain RS preamp. I live on the northwest side in the Tucson Mtn foothills - W. of Silverbell, S. of Camino del Cerro. KMSB-DT comes in at 90%! Funny thing is, I could never get any of the analog OTA VHF stations due to the Catalinas blocking Bigalow, but somehow the DTV stations come in fine.

smsprague - can't help you with your CBS HD football game question but I can say that some of the CBS programming in the evening is true HD. I find myself watching shows I never had an interest in before. The picture quality is outstanding! You can't always trust the programming guides.

stvnjen97 - I have a Radio Shack VU-120 XR roof mounted antenna. It is big and ugly but works great. I can get all of the stations with the exception on KUAT-DT (KUAS-DT signal is very strong) and WG channel 58.1. I live in the Catalina Foothills area around Swan and Sunrise.

Steve,

Thanks for the info. What has your experience been with the NBC and FOX shows.

smsprague,

I have been getting good signal strength from both NBC and FOX. Unfortunately they aren't broadcasting in true HD format.

Thought I would finally join in after a long time of "lurking" around here and the other forum areas. At this time KGUN 9 is currently up on D35. It's the strongest channel for me coming in at 100% (I'm on the east side of town). Hopefully they are not just testing and they stay up! We'll see if they have their hardware and show Threat Matrix in HD a little bit or if they will just pass through the regular signal.
-Update- checking out Threat Matrix now and it is being shown in HD 720p.

Thanks for the update.
They do have a strong signal. Looks like upconverted SD (4:3) on a 1280x720p signal. Oh well. At least they are way ahead of schedule.

I'm confused why KGUN is using a 720p signal, though. I would expect that from KMSB for their FOX "widescreen," but they are just the opposite. How is KGUN going to ever show true HD programs on a 720p signal, and how is FOX going to show their 720p "widescreen" programs on their 1920x1080i signal?

Is anyone seeing the same dropouts on FOX 11-1 lately? They might need tweaking on their equipment like KOLD did.

First off thank-you for your responses to my antenna question. I have a buddy from sierra vista who is entering the HD world. Has anyone had any experience with OTA hd programming there and if so what antenna? Also, I understand about fox upconvering all of it's programming but is NBC also. Tiatantv lists ER and Law and Order as being HD. Is this true HD programming or upconverted? These two shows are a major wife acceptance factor for spending on a good antenna setup. Any info. on any other channels and their HD programming would also be mucho appreciated. Thanks in advance.

No HD content, except for CBS and PBS.

I don't completely understand how the OTA stuff works. Sorry for so many "newbie" questions even though I've been a HDTV owner and hobbyist for 3 years but I have read previous posts and am still confused as I am new to this OTA Stuff. I get that CBS and PBS are the only current OTA broadcasts (Thanks Carey P!) and that fox doesn't do HD, just 480 widescreen. But, what I still can't figure is with NBC, UPN and WB which both have HD content but don't broadcast it. I understand this is specific to local broadcasting but will the local affiliates be upgrading to HD or are they content with upconverting? Also titantv lists ABC as going live Jan 04, is this true? Will they be sharing an antenna with another station? And one other question- does cox or comcast have plans to carry HD in tucson in the foreseeable future? BTW Carey P I noticed your link to your theater and all I can say is I'm jealous, nicely done. Thanks again everyone for your patience with my lack of knowledge.

stvnjen97,

Actually, I have not kept tabs on WB. They may be broadcasting HD content, but I don't really care. I'll leave this channel for someone else to comment on.

I was surprised to see ABC live this soon. It would seem they were succesful in hanging their digital antenna on the side of their analog tower. But they don't have the right signal for programs in 1080i format and are only upconverting anyway, so probably January is still reasonable, as I reported earlier.

Just to clarify for those without 8VSB decoders, all stations are now broadcasting OTA DTV (ATSC) signals. FOX looks like it still has problems. Most are only upconverting SD (480p or 480i NTSC) signals, and some don't "seem" to be in the correct format for when they do pass HD in the future (e.g. FOX 720p? ABC 1080i?).

The reason for the upconverting SD, is because either they don't have the time delay equipment yet to record and playback (3 hrs later) HD content from their network feed or their network does not time-delay it for them. They may be able to receive HD over the feed, but they are not allowed to re-broadcast it locally until the correct time, unless it is a live broadcast. CBS apparently has this time delay thing working, and has a pretty stable signal now with only glitches during commercials.

Also, the stations are at the mercy of whatever the network is able to feed them. If there is an HD produced program that only comes over in SD, then that's what you'll get. This may be the problem with some live sports on CBS. I know that UPN has some HD produced shows, but they don't get them in HD, or otherwise they would show them, since I believe they have the equipment (and certainly the signal).

For those other network channels, you will notice that any HD produced shows that are only in upconverted SD, look much better (sharper and detailed) than their SD produced counterparts. Probably because the original content was so much better to begin with. So for these particular shows, the signal is certainly far better than anything you can get analog or off cable TV, even though it is not in real HD yet. Almost worth firing up a front projector bulb ;).

As far as cable goes, COX will probably be first to offer something first half of next year. Comcast says another year, maybe. They require a different decoder box for this, of course. Whether they will re-broadcast locals in HD, who knows. But this will eventually give you HBO HD, etc., which you can now get on satellite, anyway.

And thanks for the nice comments :cool:.

Carey

but one more question for anyone who may know. Is there an ISF tech/calibrator locally? I have a 65" panasonic crt rptv that I would like to get calibrated early next year.

Funny you would mention that :) I would be happy to calibrate your Panny for you. You are welcome to visit the website to learn more that may help you. Rates are ISF standard: $325 (RPTV) plus $125 pre scan rate/input. ISF calibrations are keeping me busy (I do all these myself) these days. I did a Sony last week and a 2003 Mits this week. Give me a ring at your convenience.

Cinema-Pro HT Services (http://www.cinema-proht.com/wst_page3.html)

Cheers,
Randy

Found this on a post at hometheaterspot.com, very interesting. Wonder how long it will take to get online, especially considering how long it took to get locals for tucson on dtv. Also it would seem we would need yet another dish or at least new lnb's to access.

http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB4&Number=494785&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Are any of you Tucsonans able to pick up OTA HDTV signals from the Phoenix stations? I live up in Oro Valley (Rancho Vistoso) and I'm trying to figure out what I might be able to watch if I bought an HDTV receiver.

i just got a new Samsung T165 and can not get a signal on PBS channel 30 or 28 in Tucson. Is anyone currently getting a signal on these channels.

Thanks,

Mark

I just talked to Comcast yesterday and they said first or second quarter for cable HD. I'd just as soon dump them, but I don't know if I can see the OTA HD signals from NW Tucson.

I'm unable to get OTA NTSC (bunny-ears) on 4,6, etc. I take it this means I can't get the OTA HD signal...correct?

For anyone that doesn't know, there is a HDTV Society of Arizona Forum. All are welcome!

LINK:

http://pc-dtv.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=frm&s=692604811&f=5896031511

knows which OTA HD Channel are available in the Contintental Ranch area?

BTW, has anyone purchased the Panasonic TH-42PWD6UY Plasama from a local B&M? I found some great prices on the net and was curious any local B&M would price match.

Thanks and have a Happy 2004!

This was my understanding... but when I use TitanTV's "antenna locator" for digital stations, it comes up with a combination VHF/UHF antenna. And I noticed that SteveL (who happens to be in my area) is using a Radio Shack VU-120 --a VHF/UHF combo. If the Tucson DTV transmissions are on channels 19 through 44, what is the benefit of a VHF antenna?

:confused: Dave

P.S. SteveL... are you using a preamp with that beast? I did a quick test with a RadioShack U100 (mounted on a little 4' mast on my roof - pointed roughly South) feeding my new Zenith C32V37 and all I got was KWBA, KUAT (or was it KUAS?) and KHRR. The Zenith HD-420 for the theater system hasn't arrived yet :(

Hi folks. I did not realize that we had a thread on AVS, or that it is so active, so I have been missing out for awhile. In answer to an earlier question, I bought the RCA 3036 without a pre-amp. Since I have Dishnet, I got the model 6000 receiver to get both satellite and OTA HD. My problem is that the 3036 is even more directional than my old, smaller antenna. I live in the center of town (swan and Broadway), so the analog and DTV stations are very widely spaced. I can get any analog station, and most DTV stations fine by pointing the antenna toward the station. But, it makes time shift recording from multiple stations a real hassle. I may try adding a Channel Master 7777 preamp, or a second (or even third) antenna to pick up 13, 18, and 19 to the west, and 11 to the south. That way, the big one can point to Bigelow and get great reception on the main stations and main DTV stations.

Mike
P.S. Carey, I finally upgraded from that lousy LCD projector and now have a Sharp M20X DLP hanging from the ceiling. Looks almost as good as yours did when last I was there!

Hi Mike!

Sounds cool! I'm still using the same old setup, but plan to upgrade soon. At least I hope my projector makes it through Super Bowl before blowing a bulb :D. I just hope KOLD's signal hangs in there. I notice it flakes out every now and then. Scary.
Later,

Carey

I wanted to see if things were still as I had posted, so I fired up the DLP projector, switched to using the DishNet 6000 for OTA DTV reception, and tried scanning through the channels. I was watching CSI on 13, so I didn't spend long on the other stations, which was a pity, because all the other stations came in better than KOLD-DT. KOLD's digital broadcast is supposed to be coming from Bigelow, so I pointed my 120" antenna that way and got an indicated mid 70% signal. But, I still had _MANY_ drop outs of sound, video, or both. During the commercial breaks, I would scan through all the others. Channels 4 and 9 looked pretty good, with little or no drop outs during the brief times I was watching. I think I got 11, but I do not remember for sure. I was surprised that I got a signal at all for 18, since their digital broadcast is from their analog tower, due west of me. I didn't get a signal for channel 6, and did not try their repeater station.

I was so surprised that even with 75% signal from KOLD-DT that I still couldn't keep a good lock that I tried turning the antenna 15 degrees further east to try to eliminate any ghosting. But that didn't help. I eventually turned the antenna west and went back to their analog feed, since the digital was nearly un-watchable. Also, they appeared to be simply up-converting the standard SD feed, so there was even less incentive to try to get the digital to work. In fact, since KOLD got their digital station going, they seem to have been broadcasting CSI in SD more often then HD when I have tried to set up for it (still not simple with my current setup).

How have other people fared in receiving true HD from the local stations? Is there something wrong with my setup, or am I not the only one having trouble?

Mike

Carey, good luck on the Super Bowl! And lets cross our fingers that they can hold the HD signal together for that! Of course, they will face some yelling and screaming if they drop THAT ball!!

I've been having the same problem with KOLD. I have the the new Dish 811 receiver and it shows that have anywhere from 66 to 76 signal strength, yet sometimes the audio keeps cutting out or there are tons of drop outs making the signal unwatchable. I think this is a station problem rather than a reception problem since you are also having this problem. I'm also in the same area as you, Broadway and Colombus.
Last night was also strange because CSI wasn't in HD, this was a first, so I didn't really watch it, and the Arizona basketball game was on, so I don't know if there were any dropouts last night. The past couple of times CSI has been in HD as well as CSI Miami and some of CBS's other sitcoms.

Craig

Glad I wasn't imagining things. Guess I should give them a call next week before I invite too many people over for SB :(.

BTW, anyone know what's up with CH 11? They've had serious audio problems on their analog station (the latest thing being dropouts every minute or so) and their digital station's been down for some time - though I didn't check last night when Mike claimed they were back up. If they are up, then is their audio working better than their analog counterpart? I will watch 24 in digital if that's the case.

Craig,
I just dropped a line to Chuck Amy at KOLD, and he told me that they have been having trouble with the larger LPDA UHF antennas, including picking up their own signal at their studio location. Appearntly the bigger ones are not flat enough in response mess up the signal, causing higher error rates. He also said that many receivers give a combined signal strength and error rate, so the numbers we are seeing may not always mean what we think they mean. He recommended using a smaller UHF antenna, in particular a 4 bay bow-tie. This antenna is 4 simple dipoles, stacked vertically with a wire mesh flat plane reflector behind them. To make the reception more broadband, the diploes are modified into 'bow ties'. I have been having trouble finding someone in Tucson that sells them. Radio shack has a small 2 bay model (RSU# 99300998), but they list it a special order. Channel Master 3021 and Winegard PR-4400 are good examples. I ordered mine from solidsignal. Mr. Amy said that they buy theirs from MCM electronics, www.mcminone.com, but they seem to be currently out of stock. When my Channel Master comes in, I will switch to it and report back.

Mike

Carey,
It looks like some of my problems with KOLD may still be at my end, not theres. At theses high frequencies, each channel can still act different than the others. And I better take better notes the next time I do a channel sweep, to make sure I report the right signal strength (or missing in action) for each station. Watching 24 in digital would be nice!

Mike

I'll stick with my 8-bay bowtie and amplifier, as it has been essential from where I live. I wonder (but doubt) if they will fix their antenna situation by SB time. Let me know if you find out anything else. Thanks.

i'm using a dst-3000 directv receiver and am getting a 95 - 98 signal strength and am getting lots of sound and picture drops. last weeks playoff game looked good but had no sound whatever. bummer

The CBS game right now looks pretty good except for a few video breakups. It seems to happen when they switch to the replays which look like upconverted SD, though 16:9. Couldn't watch enough to tell, since the wife keeps switching to skating on CH9-1 :rolleyes:.

I don't think that KOLD's problems exist because of our collective antenna deficiencies. I have a Samsung SIR-T160 receiver and I'm having the same intermittent video/audio drop-out problems that everyone else is having. Signal is received at 77-79% and should be solid and clean.

I'm able to get a signal level of 79% on KMSB/Fox-11 but I'm not receiving any picture. Get a signal level of 100% on KTTU/UPN-18 but also no picture. Both stations use the same operations department and transmitter.

KVOA/NBC-4 is 100% with solid picture/audio. KUAT/PBS-6 is 79% with solid picture/audio. KGUN/ABC-9 is 100% with solid picture/audio.

Kirk

I too have been unable to receive KMSB. I've been in touch with Roy Mitchell at KMSB there and he keeps telling me that everything is fine, when it appears it is not. I've forwared him some of this thread to let him know that I'm not the only one.

Regarding KOLD, I too have had frequent breakups of signal and have tried a couple of different antennas to fix the problem with no avail.


Mike

KTTU and KMSB were working last night when I checked. They must have just turned back on.

KOLD has some serious problems with their signal. Using a MyHD MDP-120, it actually puts the tuner card in some state where it causes a blue screen in Win XP and I must Reset the computer. It happens sometimes a minute or so after watching the channel, but always happens when changing to a different channel, once I've been watching KOLD. Very strange! Probably partly MyHD's fault, but the other channels don't do this so it certainly says something about their signal. I'm getting about 65% here on the West Side. Guess SuperBowl is off, unless they perform some magic before then. Maybe next year...

Does anyone live on the West Side? by Flowing Wells high School (Roger and Flowing Wells) I am bringing my Samsung HD STB and projector to my brother inlaws for the SB and wondered if anyone on the west can get KOLD. Titan TV says if I bring my Winegard Sensar II amplified Antenna i will get "good" reception (not Excellent) and Antenna.org says no reception. My mother-in-laws house is only 2 blocks south and antenna.org says I can get KOLD from there.

Please let me know your thoughts. I will bring a S-video cable as backup, but it just does not look as good.

Puresilversound,
The KOLD analog antenna is somewhere west of town. You should be very close to it at roger and Flowingwells. Their digital antenna, however, I believe is on Bigelow, with just about everyone else's. You should still be able to get a good signal, as I do not remember any mountains or hills in the way. From what I have been seeing, antennaweb.org is putting several digital towers in the completely wrong area. So don't put all your faith in the online guides. YMMV.

By the way, my 4 bay bow-tie arrived last night. Now that the rain has stopped, I will try that to see if I can improve my reception of the digital stations by switching to that, and point the two two VHF/UHF antennas to pickup the analog signals. I am hoping to get everyone at once without having to climb on the roof twice a day :).

Mike

Anyone seeing the game right now on KOLD in HD without any problems???

I get a pulsating broken up signal that cuts in and out every 1/2 second on the West side. The signal is at 69% solid but is unwatchable. Plus, as soon I change channels or turn off the tuner while on this signal, it kills the computer. Is this what we are to expect for the SB? The only major network station to give us HD and they take it away for SB! This really sucks! I'm calling them this week.

At least the western analog tower is working fine. Back to the dark ages...:mad:

Carey,
Sorry to hear that reception is so bad on the west side. I was in Marana this afternoon, so I could could not watch the signal quality at the same time. I just checked it now (10:50 on Sunday night. Infomercial on Ionic Breeze ripoff. yuck!) I saw brief audio and video drop outs about once a minute, and occasional audio only drop outs in between. I have the new 4 bay bow-tie antenna up now, facing directly at Bigelow. I get KOLD-DT at a signal quality of 75, but still occasional drop outs. I now have a VHF/UHF antenna pointed continuously at Nogales for 11 and 58, a bigger one pointed west for 13 and 18, with the Bigelow VHF channels coming in on a side lobe, and the bow-tie pointed straight at Bigelow. When I did an auto search for digital stations, it found 9, but only 4 or 5 seem to be usable with my current setup. WBA digital came in fine (although looks to be strictly SD) with a quality factor of 60, 36(?) has no image, but a quality factor of 80. KUAT 27 did not lock on (probably not in LOS of any of the UHF antennas). KOLD digital as described above. KGUN_DT with a whopping 95 seems perfect. KVOA-DT only had 85, but still a perfect picture.

I think I have seen some improvement in using the 4 bay bow-tie over the large, corner reflector/yagi on the big VHF/UHF antenna, for what ever that is worth. I currently do not have a pre-amp on the mast, but I do have one next to the receiver, where I split the antenna feed many ways. I may try adding a small pre-amp on the mast and see if that improves reception, but it might also over boast the signal and cause ringing or clipping, which would make things worse.

Carey, do you want to try scheduling a simultaneous HD reception test on KOLD-DT soon, to see if the drop outs are random for each viewer, or synchronized and therefore probably KOLD's problem? PM if you would like to try that, or us my old email address, if you still have it. Anyone else willing to try for a multiple simultaneous viewing? We can check each others drop outs in real time by phone.

Mike

Mike,

Where did you find your 4-bay bow tie antenna? Locally, or otherise? I have an ISF calibration to do today on a Mits with integrated HD tuner. The client has never seen HD on his set. Depending on his location (LOS to Bigelow), I think he should have the ability to watch local HD (such as it is).

Thanks

Randy

Yesterday during the playoff game the signal would breakup every couple of seconds during the first half. In the second half the singnal was fine but the audio kept breaking up. I had to put it on mute. I was getting a signal strength between 69 and 78. Every other DTV station is fine.

Randy,
sorry, I was not able to find anyone in town who stocks them. Radio Shack has a smaller 2 bay model, but it is currently special order. I did not try Electronics City, Rohs, Satellite City, or any of the other specialty stores, so there may still be a possibility. I ordered mine online from www.mcminone.com, with delivery in a few days. But, it does not sound like that will help you today.

Franco,
I still agree. I seem to get more reliable reception from all the other stations that I can pick up, with the exception of KWBA-DT, which is the farthest away and may not have a powerful transmitter. I still wonder if we can all get together with the tech guys at channel 13 and trace down these receptions problems.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I'll have time anytime after 4pm today to check out dropouts in real time.

I talked to Chuck at KOLD today. He was aware of the audio dropouts during the second half of the game Sunday, but was unaware of the video problems. He's been getting conflicting reports on video dropouts from various areas in town and thought the problems they were having were not with their transmitter antenna but with the individual receivers out there. He was blaming it on sensitivity to signal reflections and ghosting of the digital signal and said that the 8-bay bowtie I was using was probably the best chance I had of a decent signal over any other antenna. But to be careful of signal clipping or overdriving the signal with the preamp.

However, he would be interested to know if people were experiencing the same exact dropout timing from different points in town, so your idea would indeed tell him something useful.

The other thing he pointed out was that they use completely different equipment when broadcasting live HD feeds like during the football game. He was very interested in hearing the reports on video quality during that time. They are investigating these problems and will have extra people working during Super Bowl to monitor the signal and equipment operation.

I also told him about the curious problem with only their signal that causes my tuner card to crash. He confirmed that this was reported by at least a dozen other people and that it probably had to do with the overloaded info in the PSIP table. The other stations don't pack in near as much and that's why they don't have the problem. He might try removing one thing at a time to see at what point it goes away. He has my number if he wants help with this.

Let me know when you want to set a time to call. Thanks. -Carey

Since there is not much HD on tonight with the President's speech, and not Wednesday night with 60 minutes, lets us all try to watch simultaneously from 7PM to 9PM (Without a Trace and CSI). Try to write down the exact hour/minute (and second?) and scene where video drop outs occur. We can ignore the audio only drop outs at this point, since most seem to come from the network feed, not KOLD itself. It would be best if we could communicate in real time on the phone to verify when we get a multiple drop out, but if we get more than 2, I do not know if we can get a conference call set up. Please post your results after, so we can talk with KOLD tech and see how much of the problem is in our equipment, and how much in their signal. PM me if you wish to join in and swap phone numbers.

Mike

Avtually, the network feed of the State of the Union speech will be HD, so if KOLD passes it through you'll have a lot of HD on tonight.

If they do, this may be our only chance to check how their "live" broadcast equipment is working before they use it again during Super Bowl. I am told this is a different situation than the normal time-delayed programming and a whole different set of problems.

I'll keep an eye out. Thanks.

I will be in Himmel park for much of it, but will try to catch the beginning to help compare notes on a live feed.

Mike

Did you notice that Leno was in HD last night, and will be from now on. The President will be on KVOA in HD tonight.
Leno was perfect....words and lips at same time...not one dropout.
KVOA was having audio issues like KOLD has had and elected to wait until they were worked out.

Oooh, I'm happy now! I've been watching the President's speech and now I realize there is no point in recording "when" these dropouts occur with a live feed. This is because they are EXACTLY repeatable every 48.3 seconds!

The fact is, that every 48.3 seconds there is a dropout that ranges from a slight audio drop, to a long 1 second video breakup and audio drop. The best I can measure with a stopwatch from center of drop to center of drop is 48.3 seconds. Every one has been predictable. There are never any other drops seen, as far as I can tell.

I hope this is what everyone else is seeing, because if so, this means that good old Chuck will have something he can look for and possibly easily correct. There must be some time base marker, beacon, pulsar or quasar that is causing the interference with the signal. I will be calling him tomorrow with this good news! :)

Carey

Wow, I didn't realize KVOA was broadcasting HD now! I checked out the live feedthru and there are no dropouts whatsoever. Looks superb!! Signal at 81% (where KOLD was at 64%). I do see some lipsync delay with the digital audio, whereas KOLD is a bit closer. Now I wish SB was on NBC! :(

At least I know that there is no common 48.3 sec pulse affecting the same tower. I'll look forward to see Leno if I can stay up that late. They must have their time-delay server in and working for taped shows. The lipsync might be different for this case.

Scary to think of watching Leno's lips for time sync problems :).

I was not as quick on the draw as Carey, and I may have over looked some of the lesser drop outs, but I did make a timed list. All times are self-syncing 'atomic' wall clock. About half way through, I realized that I was watching the down-converted s-video from my HD box, and switched over to component feed in 1080I. Sorry for the pilot error. I also saw fewer drop outs after switching. I was wondering if my HD receiver was having trouble decoding HD, then down converting to 480I. In the following list the dialog mentioned happened just after the drop out. Here is my list

7:02:10
7:02:14
03:08
07:05 just announced President coming in
07:56 announcer : Early in January
09:32 Standing Ovation
11:12
12:00 America more secure
12:47 vigilance protecting America
14:24
15:12
16:01 This danger will be debated
17:38
22:29 Saddam's regime
24:06 President of Iraqi Interim Council

switched to HD on component output

28:57
32:12 list of countries
33:00 international support
35:25 free markets
36:14 leading cause of freedom
37:03 economy growing stronger
40:16 status quo has defenders
41:54 teaching high school
44:20 federal regulations, frivolous lawsuits
45:08 less dependence on foreign energy
45:57 limit burden
47:37 temporary workers program
49:11 modern medicine they deserve

50:00 stopped recording (went to park)

Carey,
I just put all my numbers into an Excel spreadsheet. The best fit interval for my dropouts is 56 seconds. I jumped several cycles of 56.2 seconds in many spots, but the multiples are very close to integers. Once again, I do not know what pulsar repeats at that rate.

Mike

Originally posted by Misha
I jumped several cycles of 56.2 seconds in many spots, but the multiples are very close to integers. Once again, I do not know what pulsar repeats at that rate.I don't know, but if we find it, I'm naming after me :D

That is quite strange that you got a different rep rate than I did by 8 seconds. Not only is that a long time in the EM scheme of things, but it makes your dropouts completely out of sync with mine.

I noticed how KVOA has their own issues. They had perfectly good HD shows on after the live broadcast, until Leno, when the sound was screwed up altogether and they had to switch back to SD in the middle of the monolog.

Carey,
I just emailed Chuck Amy with both of our results. He is suggesting a buffer overflow in each of our receivers. Since we use different hardware, it is not so surprising that the cycle rates are different. It would also explain why they are so precise, and with very brief drop outs. He will look at his equipment to see if he can figure out what might be causing this. He also asks everyone to see if the same problem occurs in normal (delayed) prime time shows. I told him that something similar does happen, but I do not have the same precise numbers. Perhaps tomorrow night's shows will be a good time for everyone to look for period drop outs. Try to time the cycle time, especially with a stop watch with a lap timer function. Many digital wrist watches have that feature built in. On mine, you start the stop watch with the top right button. Pressing the bottom right button freezes the display (they call it 'split time') while the stop watches continues to count in the back ground. Averaged over several cycles, this can give a very accurate measure of the cycle time. Then post your results, along with a description of your HD receiver. Hopefully this data will help KOLD find out how to improve everyones reception :)!

Mike

I talked with him on the phone after you sent him your results this morning and that's how he described it to me. He said this was all very helpful and that he was hoping to find the problem by Super Bowl time. I told him how KVOA did not have this problem with the same material and he noted that all the other stations on the same tower use the same model transmitter. Only KOLD's is different and that's where the problem may be. If he could borrow KVOA's transmitter for the SB, he would!

Misha, Carey P,
I don't believe the KOLD dropouts are a problem with your receivers...I have the same problem. I use an RCA ATSC11 OTA STB with a $40.00 Radio Shack Indoor Powered Antenna. I live near Speedway & Harrison. I talked with Chuck Amy about three weeks ago and he wasn't sure if it was a KOLD or network issue. I have had to listen to the audio on SD and watch the CBS football games on HD a couple of times. Not a problem, since you can't see the announcers' lips and it is close enough to be on top of the play.

The issue last night during Leno's monoloque was NBCs, which they corrected during the first commercial break and were back on in HD. It was NBC that changed back to SD, not KVOA. I saw the last 1/2 hour of Leno and it was good....I can't say the lips were exactly with the audio, but it was close enough that it was difficult to tell.
Getting the audio (especially the lip-sinc thing) correct is evidently the most difficult thing with digital TV and it may take awhile for the networks and the local stations to get it right.
It will all come together in time.
Jibby

Is it just me or does anyone notice on KVOA's HD programing that when the camera pans fast or zooms the picture gets pixelated. The signal doesn't breakup but the picture isn't as clear as when the camera is static. I noticed it during Leno last night when the camera was zooming around.

Thursday night HD on KOLD results

My overall impression is that things have greatly improved. Chuck Amy pulled a fast one on us. We were supposed to be watching for periodic drop outs, and he seems to have fixed it so there were very few drop outs at all in the HD portions of the broadcast. My memory of previous watching of normal (delayed) prime time is that it had frequent drop outs, and more frequent audio drop outs. Carey says that his system usually shows good reception on normal prime time, and only the live feed HD Tuesday had the periodic drop outs. However, he has always had trouble with the PSIP table overflowing, causing his computer/tuner card to die if he changes channels away from KOLD-DT. It seems that Chuck fixed that, too! Chuck, Carey called me back after he found out it was working, and he sounded VERY ecstatic :D! While Carey and I where on the phone, we saw the commercial breaks at 7:14 and 7:30. During the commercial breaks, we both saw simultaneous video drop outs. His hardware recovers quickly, mine sometimes remained stuck for 30 to 60 seconds. I am guessing that KOLD is still having some trouble up-converting the SD commercials to HD in real time, and that is the source of the drop outs. The long recovery time on my satellite/OTA box is probably a short coming of my hardware. Every commercial break hard several drop outs. Carey is worried about the fancy commercials during the SB having problems, as well.

Now, for the details

7:14 commercial drop outs
7:30 commercial drop outs
7:32 drop out switching from commercials to HD show
7:42 commercial drop outs
7:47:15 video breakup in HD show when Dante and Marissa are talking in flashback
7:58 commercial drop outs
8:03:40 multiple breakups in HD CSI opening credits
8:04 commercial drop outs
8:20:17 video breakup in HD show during re-enactment of Hot man coming in
8:22:17 video breakup in HD show during re-enactment of Boat rental
8:32 commercial drop outs
8:33 drop out during switch to HD show
8:35:22 video breakup in HD show during Heat lightning demo
8:47 commercial drop outs
8:49:30 drop out on switch to HD show

As you can see, there where very few drop outs during the HD programing. Almost all of the trouble was during SD commercials, or switching back to the HD feed. I did not notice any audio only drop outs, which had been a real problem for me before. Carey said that the HD show looked good while he was watching, but the delayed shows usually did for him. All in all, I think things are looking great! Chuck, I hope this helps.

Mike

Does Chuck allow his contact info to be distributed? You are welcomed to email me. Thanks.

Randy
mrrsoc@cox.net

I was up in Vegas for CES and stayed with a friend who swapped out his normal Cox STB for an HD STB while I was there. HD looked quite good, but SD channels looked much worse than they had looked on the non-HD STB.

I am accustomed to excellent cable if running without the Cox STB (direct to tuner). How is PQ like for those of you using Cox digital STB?

I bring it up because we are not long from Cox HD.

Originally posted by Misha
Carey said that the HD show looked good while he was watching, but the delayed shows usually did for him. Just to explain further - The HD delayed shows seem to be a lot more stable now, though in the past there were breakups about every 10 min or so which lasted at least 2 seconds and caused you to miss key dialog. This did not seem to happen any longer last night. Also, there used to be more severe problems when SD converted commercials ended or when switching back to the HD show. There was a noticeable chunk cut off from the end of commercials. This seemed to be fixed a while back. Now there are only less severe dropouts mainly during the commercials, as Mike described.

I was not expecting any cyclic dropouts as there was during the live broadcast, since I had never seen that before during delayed programming. I'm convinced dropouts during delayed programming and live broadcasts are two separate issues, as I have not seen one problem cross over to the other. We can only hope that Chuck can fix the cause of the buffer overruns or whatever it is, in time for SB. It's unfortunate that we don't have any live programming to test any fixes before then. It's this live broadcast issue that scares me the most.

I was surprised to see the crashing problem was gone :). Chuck - did you actually remove some data from the PSIP tables or did I just get lucky? Great work so far! Thanks for all the help!

I just got a reply from Chuck Amy at KOLD technical operations. He said

"You can post it as long as folks understand they may not get immediate responses. I will answer as promptly as practical."

his address is CAmy@kold.com

Mike

I am wondering if everybody is having the issues I am having. I have a Samsung T165 HDTV receiver. Here are my issues:

Channel 19 shows up as 19-1 not 18-1 as it should, plus it takes about 5 seconds
sync up.

Channel 25 shows up as 25-1 not 11-1 as it should, plus it takes about 5 seconds
sync up.

Channel 28 shows up as 28-1 and 28-2 not 27-1 and 27-2 as it should.

I get channel 4-1, 4-2, 4-3, 6-1, 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5, 9-1, 12-1 (from Phoenix), 13-1, and
40-1 fine.

Thanks,

Mark

Mark,
I don't think I am even getting 19 and 25 at all, so don't feel so bad. The displayed channel name is a text string included in the signal by the broadcaster. I am betting that 19, 28, and 25 have not included these in their signal (in the PSIP data?) yet. Where are you located? I am still trying to figure out why I can get most of the digital stations, but not 11(25).

Mike

Mike,

I am in the Northeast at the base of Mount Lemmon (Fort Lowell and Prince), I have an old Radio Shack boom antenna (120 inch) on my roof.

Mark

Mark,

It is interesting how you can get Phoenix (I assume KPNX CH 36) from where you are located. Did this station just turn on recently? Maybe I should try it.

Anyway, it is also funny how you register KOLD as 13-1. I thought that's the way I always saw it, but as of last night, I am only getting it as 32-1. I was thinking this had something to do with the PSIP data that Chuck may have removed to prevent the tuner lock up problem. WHICH IS FINE WITH ME - CHUCK :) But, I'm seriously wondering now whether any real changes were made, or that it has something to do with auto detecting the channel in some way that reads far too much PSIP for my tuner to handle. There may be something more to this going on than I imagined. Chuck - did you ever really change the PSIP table?? Just curious!

Carey

Mike,

KPNX CH 36 (12-1) just showed up this week. I am getting KOLD as 13-1. My tuner (Samsung T165) has issue with the KUAT channels. If 6-1 is on and 6-2, 6-3, 6-4, 6-5 are off my tuner will continually reboot on 6-2 thru 6-5. If 6-1 is off and 6-2 thru 6-5 are on my tuner reboots on 6-1. The same happens on 28-1 and 28-2. Samsung says they are broadcasting incorrectly (bad PSIP), KAUT say they are right. My neighbor has a Samsung T160 (Direct TV box) and does not have this issue. Gotta love it.

Mark

Mark,
I guess that is the price we impatient people pay for being early-adoptors :D! My receiver is currently saying it does not see channel 6 digital at all, although I know that I have picked it up in the past. It should also be coming in on my 4 bay bow-tie from Bigelow, if I remember correctly. I seem to have to keep adding things back with auto search, then manually re-add to my favorites lists. I wish there was a way to lock stations in, whether they appear good at the moment or not. Also, I finally figured out what the defective video on 4-3 is. Previously, I had only seen it at night, and it was a strange distorted mess of red and yellow lights, with some flickering a bit. I finally checked it on Sunday during the day and found that it is the view from their tower cam near A mountain! It has the same audio as the current programming, but you can see the city, Catalina's, and clouds any time you want. Can even just see cars traveling on the freeway in the foreground.

Mike

at the suggestion of 1074j, I have looked specifically at my reception of KMSB and KTTU. I have tended to ignore them as they keep disappearing from my favorites lists. The reasons for this are now somewhat clearer.

KMSB 11/25: I can receive the carrier signal, with a signal quality of around 70, but it never shows an image, or audio. There is no channel name of equivalent analog station number, so I may not be getting the PSIP data, either. It seems to me that I did get this station at one time, but not recently.

KTTU 18/19: This one is even stranger. When I do an auto scan for digital stations, it counts channel 19 as a digital station, but does not add it to the list. If I manually add it, I get a signal quality of 75 (occasionally dropping to 0), but my Dishnet 6000 HD receiver still refuses to add it to the list. When watching channels, I can not manually go to 019-1 either, it will jump to the nearest valid channel, instead. Obviously, I can not tell what the image or sound quality is like if it will never accept 19 as a possible channel. I think I may have been able to get this one in the past, as well.

During the auto scan for digital channels, I am not getting 8 or 9 of the 9 possible digital channels listed on antennaweb.org for this area. But, only 6 end up available for watching. Even KWBA, with a very weak signal of 65 comes in clearly (may be sending lots of redundant data for their SD only broadcasts ?), but the stronger KMSB and KTTU signals are complete no shows. I am about to email the stations directly and confirm their digital broadcast tower locations, and see if they know why their signals are not receivable. Does any one else get the stations OK, and are you using a different digital tuner than mine? These are not high priorities, but I would like to watch 24 with the better PQ, and try Enterprise in 16x9 (possibly HD) on my big screen.

Mike

Mike,

And I thought I had problems! I guess this tuner/PSIP dilema will exist for some time, until someone can decide on a good standard. I don't have a problem with any of those stations mentioned, FWIW. I watch Enterprise all the time in digital, since 19 has a really good quality signal.

If you dare to read my older posts, I explained that you will only see it in 16:9 within a 4:3 within a 16:9. That's because they are not getting it in HD, though their SD upconverting is excellent for this show. Also, it continues to look just as 'dark' as the analog signal always has. The good thing is that it is in dolby stereo!

I have not had a chance to watch 24 yet on the big screen, but since that's not in HD either, I just didn't have enough incentive yet.

BTW, I tried for that KPNO station in PHX, and only managed 10-15% signal if that, so obviously it was trash. Funny how that signal can reach someone in midtown and not here on the west side. Even funnier how strong I can receive Bigalow in digital and yet I can't receive a single analog station from there without mostly snow.

All I can say at this point is - I hope KOLD has their act together for Super Bowl or there's going to be some mighty upset people out there.

Carey,
I do not know if it a PSIP problem, a receiver incompatibility problem, as signal cancelation at my antenna for just those to frequencies, or a transmitter problem. I just got back from KMSB, and they have no idea. They also say they have not changed anything since they started up, so if I ever got them, then I still should be.

Good luck on the SB!

Mike

Carey/Mike,

I get both 19 and 25 after about 5 seconds for them to sync up. 19 shows up as 19-1 not 18-1 as it should, 25 shows up as 25-1 not 11-1 as it should. Once I get them both channels seem to broadcast with no transmission problems. I have never seen anything other than SD 4:3 shows. About a 3 or 4 weeks ago both stations showed up as 11-1 and 18-1 as they should. I have a Samsung T165.

Another question, does anyone get channel 44 (58-1)?

Mark

After reading about all the complicated reception issues you guys are experiencing, I feel pretty lucky. I have visual line of sight with Bigelow at about five miles, but I had terrible reception because I had the wrong antenna. KOLD and others often had dropouts and no audio. I put up the RS $21.95 UHF only directional antenna and now have signal strength at 100%.

I post not to brag, but to share the problem differences in antennae made, despite my ideal location.

Cheers

Cam Man,
I am using a RS powered indoor antenna at around Speedway and Harrison. I was having the pixelation and audio dropouts you and the others were having with KOLD and pixelation with PBSHD. But, I haven't had any problems for several days now...just a little bit of pixelation with KVOA on fast camera movements on Leno. KVOA solved this problem today by using more bandwidth for their HD by including the bandwidth that was allocated for 4-2 & 4-3...now up to 19+ megabytes.
KOLD seems to have solved their audio problems and PBSHD has been good.
I think the fact that your reception is better now may have been more of a function of the stations solving problems than antenna quality.

Mark,
I get 25 and 19 exactly the same way you do. I kind of stumbled on the fact that 25 would work if I waited it out. (Only SD for those two...but KMSB has done some live Fox NFL in ED. Fox has no plans for HD. I think they plan on staying with ED (probably 480P).
The only ones delaying primetime HD programming are PBS, KOLD & KVOA. KGUN does not have plans to get the server necessary for delaying in the near future....maybe not until next year. They will carry live HD programming.
Can't wait for the olympics this summer. Will be in HD.

I think the fact that your reception is better now may have been more of a function of the stations solving problems than antenna quality.

As fate would have it...:p

Jibby - What station is showing the Olympics?

KGUN-DT is a real dissapointment! I can't believe they would put off delayed HD until next year :(. It's too bad the network won't delay it for them. If they ever do show HD in the future, their signal is 720p, so we'll see how that compares to 1080i.

I noticed last night that 19-1 had many dropouts in their regular programming. All other stations appeared solid. Their signal had been fine before.

I'm really impressed how KUAT can have so many subchannels in full HD resolution. They must be at some reduced bandwidth, though they all look perfect to me.

Mark,
Yes, I can get 44 (WBA-DT) fine. Their signal is pretty week <60 from my small combo antenna pointed south, but the image is fine.

Carey,
The last I checked, KUAT HD is showing only pre-recorded material, not live or standard channel up-converted. They may have done a more careful, non-real time compression. That way, they can get good PQ with a smaller bandwidth. It is the rea time stuff that is hard to make look good with a small bandwidth. Note the eariler comments about pixelation during rapid pans on Leno. When they up-convert their SD, they may have to drop the additional channels to get the same PQ.

Mike

Originally posted by Jibby

but KMSB has done some live Fox NFL in ED. Fox has no plans for HD. I think they plan on staying with ED (probably 480P).
The only ones delaying primetime HD programming are PBS, KOLD & KVOA. KGUN does not have plans to get the server necessary for delaying in the near future....maybe not until next year. They will carry live HD programming.
Can't wait for the olympics this summer. Will be in HD.

I think I remember seeing somewhere that KGUN is hoping to have a server online in June of this year. Also, I think FOX is going to 720p for it's scripted programming in the fall. I don't know if they plan on using HD for sports or stay with the ED they've been using. Now whether KMSB plans to make the changes needed to show 720p is anyone's guess.

Tony

You'll notice that KUAT's HD is not real good...not as "looking thru a window" good as the stations using more bandwidth.

The olympics are on NBC, this summer.....definitely in HD.

We'll see ups and downs as stations experiment to find the best signal. I understand that audio is one of the most difficult aspects of digital TV.

This is a work in progress. We are witnessing history, guys. I'm old enough that I went thru the same thing when color came aboard.

And....we were one of the first ones with a TV when I was a kid. I remember watching a snowy test pattern for a half hour, waiting for the station to sign on with Howdy Doody at around 3:30 or 4:00 in the afternoon.

No....I didn't know Marconi, personally.

Jibby

i also get 58-1 fairly well on the east side of town. the only tough one i have is 4-1.

The live feed looks great with no cyclic dropouts or commercial problems. Keep it coming. It'll be a great party this year! :D:D

Carey

Ditto! Kudos Chuck. Stay on it, man, you've got the code today!:p

There is something a bit troublesome about the way audio is being broadcast. The two-channel DD is matrixed in a way that will not allow Dolby Pro-Logic II to allocate to L, C, R, Surrounds properly. There is way too much dialogue in the main left and right, and in the surrounds; no solid center channel. This is so distracting that we may have to go with 2-channel DD. We'll just have to see how it is with the actual game. :( PQ is hanging in there beautifully.:)

My lipsync is not right on...slightly off. Are you other guys seeing/hearing the same thing?

I think you will find that nobody in town is doing 5.1 sound yet...only 2 channels. What is coming out of your surround speakers is artificially done by your audio receiver. Not sure about this, but that's what I am told by the engineers that should know.

Yes, audio sync is off by a few frames.

Two-channel DD should be matrix encoded just a all two-channel stereo for television (and used to be for theaters). If matrixed correctly, this 2-channel should give us L,C,R, and surrround at proper levels in Dolby Pro Logic II. What we are hearing today is not Dolby stereo encoded properly; the standard that would permit our receivers to decode it properly. Change around to other HD 2-channel DD such as Discovery HD, or even non-HD and give a listen. 95% of broadcast stereo sources get this right these days. Don't know why CBS (or KOLD) is this way today.

I noticed that as soon as KOLD went live at 12 noon, the audio was more into the surrounds and main channels, like Cam Man reported.

I am running straight digital coax from the tuner to receiver in SPDIF mode. I have many DSP modes to choose from. I found, howver, that in my usual TV/Sports mode (for this sort of thing), I had to turn way down the reverb, surround delay and primary and surround room fields, until the annoying echoing from the mains and surround were almost gone. It was mainly apparent during commercials.

Even Dolby Enhanced even needs tamed. Dolby Standard or no effects altogether works fine, if need to resort to it.

Jibby,
My lipsync is right on.

I changed my audio receiver from surround to stereo and that helped with the lipsync. Not quite, but almost right on.
SB looked great though, didn't it? You could actually see the texture of the helmets, grass blades, and the fact that Jim Nance shaved really early this morning.
My wife noticed on West Wing the other night that Stockard Channing had hairs on her chin :-).....and you could see that John Spencer's (Chief of Staff) makeup wasn't perfect along part of his lip line.

There were only a few audio drops during the whole game. What was very annoying was some of the commercials being very loud compared with others. I always had to keep the remote in hand ready to adjust the volume.

It seemed there was a problem during half time when the video broke up for a few seconds or more. Probably a network problem. Sure wish I was recording that surprise ending :D.

Overall, I was very impressed. Far better than I was expecting.

Agreed. It really took the event to a new level. We always have a SB party, but I had not advertised the fact that we would enjoy a technological milestone this year for fear that it would let us down.

Chuck, if your following, great job.

Question deleted (got the answer).

Does anyone know what is going on with channels 4-2 and 4-3. My receiver (Samsung T165) gets a digtial audio signal message but no sound or video and keeps trying to acquire the channel. I have taken 4-2 and 4-3 out of my memorized channel list to fix this.

KVOA has taken 4-2 and 4-3 out of the loop to increase the bandwidth when broadcasting 4-HD, using all of the bandwidth except the little bit used for the guide. The increased bandwidth has completely eliminated the slight pixilation that was occurring during a quick pan. 4-2 and 4-3 are sometimes put back in during non-HD times.
You'll find that KUAT is doing the same thing.
The bandwidth can handle several SD signals, but it looks like to do HD in top quality it may take most of the bandwidth, leaving only enuf to do some stills....like news headlines, weather graphics, etc.

Tried watching some HD/Digital TV last night with disappointing results on the following channels.

CBS (13-1) - Sound was screwed up, sounded like they where in a cave (King of Queens)

Fox (11-1) – Loose sound and picture tiles about every minute.

UPN (18-1) – Picture tiles about every 30 seconds.

NBC and ABC where fine. Did anybody else notice these problems with CBS, FOX and UPN.

Thanks,

Mark

At least since Tue for UPN and FOX. Almost like a Max Headroom effect, if you remember that one ;).

CBS was pretty bad during that live broadcast of the Grammy's. Many sound dropouts and several picture breakups, but they were all random, not cyclic like earlier live broadcasts. I hadn't noticed any strange sound lately for the brief moments that I checked it on taped programs.

Just found this forum and thread. Have been playing and experimenting with various antennas (with Dish 811 receiver). I live in Oro Valley and was told I will have great difficulty receiving OTA stations. Well, after much experimenting moving antenna all around my yard I found a few "hot spots" and I can get ALL the digital stations!! So I leave my antenna on a little tripod and move/point it as necessary. I also experimented with many antennas, including the new Winegard Squareshooter, and many pre-amps. Best antenna....Channelmaster 4221A, a 4 bay bow tie. Preamps are no help at all. You can buy/order this at ACE hardware (p/n 30914) for about $23.

I still have a little trouble with KMSB 11-1, but I understand they are at very low power waiting for FCC approval to go big time so we will see.

BTW, Dish 811 has many issues particularly with OTA.

Welcome babakanoosh.

I'm glad (and envious) that you are receiving "ALL the digital stations!!". So far, my results have been poor. I set up my CM 4228 with CM's best rotator as high as I thought I could get away with (about 10 feet off of the roof). I'm sure my neighbor to the North loves this as it's sure to be right in his line of sight to the city.

Anyway, using an uninterrupted run of quad shield coax to either of my HDTV setups (about 30 feet to one; 60 feet to the other - in opposite directions) all I can get is 6 (KUAT), 27 (KUAT), 40 (KHRR), and 58 (KWBA). I just can't seem to pull in the Bigelow transmitters. Of course, the foothills blocking my line of sight are the culprit, but I thought I could defy physics nonetheless. I have a CM7775 preamp on the way, but I'm not holding out much hope.

The strange thing is the SteveL posted that he got all the stations and he's in the same area (Swan/Sunrise). I may have to give up on HDTV until Comcast gets their act together sometime in 2005 :(

Looks like I'm gonna be moving to Tucson.

Since I'll be renting for a bit, what part of town will give be the best (most reliable and most channels) OTA reception. I am currently using an indoor antenna but would be willing to use an out door on a patio/balcony if needed.

I'm guessing since the transmitter is on Mt. Lemmon that the Central Tucson, Foothills Northeast Tucson, Northwest Tucson, and West Tucson areas (accroding to apartments.com) would be best.

Any and all local knowledge will be very, very helpful.

Thanks
Joe

If you have direct line of site to the transmitters you are all set. Note Mount Bigelow (east of Mount Lemmon) is NOT visible from the northwest of Tucson. If you don't have line of sight then it is luck (reflections), but not unusual, to get reception. Height of antenna becomes unimportant. In my case the best spot is 3 feet off the ground. On a pole on the roof I get nothing! Even pointing direction is not obvious. Sometimes it is better to point at an angle to the transmitter (better multipath rejection). I even have some spots where it works best backwards! I think it is because my stucco house with underlying chickenwire is acting as a reflector. At UHF wavelengths only a foot difference can be all it takes. So, what I did was buy a small tripod from RadioShack and and 8 foot (used PVC) pole and moved it around and up and down (and I did this with 5 different antennas). Lots of work, but good results.

Thanks babakanoosh. I guess there is still some hope, then. :)

But let me get this straight... At UHF wavelengths only a foot difference can be all it takes. That means with a lot size a little over an acre (50,000 sq ft)... and testing every foot... including heights at one-foot increments from two to eight feet... with 18 different orientations (every 20 degrees) and three "tilt" options (horizontal, tilted up, tilted down)... that works out to sixteen million trials. :eek: And you did this with five antennas. :p

I couldn't resist, being an engineer after all... ;)

But seriously, this could take some time. The price we pay for technology :rolleyes:

I'm an engineer too. It really wasn't that bad. The hardest part was having to go in and out my patio door to check the levels on the TV. The good hot spots were the same for all the antennas so the antenna tradeoffs were just which is the best performing one. The highest levels did not mean best performance though. Ability to locK on the signal is the key. I did find I needed two different hot spots to get all the stations so I have set it up so I can easily move the antenna. If you can get someone to watch the TV you can just walk around your yard with the antenna on a pole. Of course my wife thought this whole thing was crazy but she really likes all the HD we can get now. As I said previusly the best one was also the cheapest. Good luck!

I was watching CSI on KOLD-DT last night, and found that I am still (or is that again?) having periodic drop outs on KOLD's digital feed. This time, the period for my receiver was 48.55 seconds, plus or minus a few seconds each occurrence. I wonder if the Dishnet 6000 receiver is the culprit. I have finally gotten out of climing up onto the roof every night to get the best reception. I now have 3 antennas ganged together, each facing a different direction. Frankly, I am afraid of trying the moving tripod approach. The roof looks messy enough as it is with 3 antennas on one mast, and two satellite dishes!

When I came home tonight (Friday), and turned on channel 13 analog, I was horrified to see a weak, very ghosty signal. I was afraid the rain was shorting out all my antenna wires. The TV set, VCR, and HD receiver all had a bad picture for the analog signal. But, the digital picture was fine, even though it comes in on the same cable as the analog. The only problem was the drop outs every 49 seconds, which were usually just brief audio drop outs. Later, I checked the other stations in analog and found they were all fine. I guess KOLD had a bad night with the rain at the main transmitter, and only the digital on Bigelow was humming along fine. I still wish I could find a way to fix that cyclic drop out. babakanoosh, you say that the Dishnet 811 has OTA problems, too? It may be a Dishnet technology problem, then. Which makes an upgrade/fix difficult. If I add a set top box, I have more component inputs then I have connections on my HT receiver. If I replace the 6000 component connections with a set-top box, then I loose not only HD satellite feeds, but also the higher quality on standard channels when I put them on the big screen. I NEED MORE HT GEAR!!!

Mike

I have had my dish 811 for a couple weeks now & I also have the KOLD every 48 second glitch problem. I was assuming that it was a broadcast problem as all the other OTA signals coming from MT. Bigelow seem to be near perfect. Having read some of the prior posts on this thread ( just found it last night) I am curious if anyone has had any further contact with KOLD's engineer regarding this problem & if not should we try to? Also, anyone out there with this same problem not using dish network equiptment? I sure would like to watch CBS HD without this problem, it often knocks out my audio & I have to toggle to another channel to get it back.

Chris

Chris,
Sorry to hear that you are having the same 48 second problem I am. I have been in contact with Chuck Amy, the technical director at KOLD in the past, and he has been very receptive. However, there may be some fundamental incompatibility between the way his transmitter (all the other stations use a different brand(s) of transmitters) formats the data, and they process by which our receivers decode it. He believes the 48 seconds is how long it takes the process to lag so far behind that data is lost, buffers cleared and re-initialized, and the process starts over. Carey has had a similar problem with his HTPC equipment, but with a different cyclic rate. However, I think he said recently that he no longer has the cyclic drop outs on time shifted (prime time) HD programing. If you and I are the only ones still having cyclic failures of prime time programs, commercials, and local news, and the only solution is for the station to buy a whole new transmitter, I think we may have a problem. But, we may still be able to find other ways around it. I will give Chuck another email Monday and see if he has any fresh ideas.

I have finally been able to get digital reception from ALL local stations (well, I didn't check KHRR channel 40, but all the english stations!) Several showed up in my list with their digital channel numbers, not beside their analog counterparts. I found that by manually adding the troublesome stations all got at least analog counterpart's number, if not its call letters. I also had trouble with KVOA's coming up with only the -2 sub channel. Since they were not showing HD at the time, it was completely blank. After manually entering KVOA-DT, all was fine. I think the auto scan may go too fast to catch all the sub channels and digital identifiers. Updating them manually gives it more time to pick up all the signals. If anyone is still having trouble 11 digital being listed as 25 or similar, you might try looking for a manual entry menu. When checking signal qualities, I found that channel 11 digital is real marginal, taking quite some time to lock up. But once it did, it seemed solid. All the rest of the stations seemed to remain steady once locked. Only KOLD-DT seems to have the cyclic drop outs on my receiver. I hope we can find a cure for that, too.

Mike

I'm afraid to try KOLD to test for cyclic dropouts, as it is back to crashing my system any time I lock on to the station for more than a few seconds and try to switch channels or shut down. It would seem the PSIP table is back to it's old tricks, which may include the old buffer overload problem as well. I just won't watch it any more until they fix their transmitter.

However, having said that, I may purposely crash my system just to test the cyclic dropout problem, if I knew it was occurring at a specific time for sure.

Carey

I just completed an outside antenna installation and, in defiance of Mt. Lemmon's long shadow, am having reasonable success receiving the Mt. Bigelow DTV's here at Dove Mountain. I was looking forward to seeing the Oscars in HD, but KGUN didn't cooperate. I gather there's an equipment problem with net delay at the station, but the Oscars should have been a live broadcast. Has KGUN ever transmitted any HD programming?

Originally posted by Andrikos
John,
Do you have pics of your installation?
I'd love to see what a Ret. Broadcast Eng. has done to receive HDTV! :) I'm afraid one 4221 looks pretty much like another. Anyway, this one is not nearly as permanent as I hoped it would be and, while not nearly as ambitious as your impressive line arrays, it's also still a "work in progress". The mast is attached to the wall of the house using 8" stand-off clamps that, in turn, are bolted to 18 x 1 x 3 boards that bridge the wall studs. We're located due west of Bigelow (the towers are 96 degrees T). The house faces southwest. To get the clearest and widest unobstructed view (between rooftops) of the Catalinas, it was necessary to go out to the extreme northeast corner of the house. It turns out to be fairly convenient because the cable can be run back discretely under the roof edge on the north side of the house to the service entrance on the same side.

It's unfinished because the ground wire hasn't been run yet (waiting for parts) and there's some painting to do to camouflage the mount and wiring. The antenna too will probably be changed, at least experimentally, from the 4221 to a Blonder-Tongue log periodic. Reception of KOLD-DT is proving frustratingly difficult. A new receiver has helped, but not nearly enough. Every other station, including KUAS that's being picked up off the side of the antenna, is pretty solid.

John,

I good signal strength on all the channels but disappointing performance. Below is a summary of my experience Lat.

4-1 - Perfect
6-1 thru 6-5 - Perfect
9-1 - Perfect, but only HD I have seen is MNF
11-1 - Loss of sound and picture tiling every minute or so.
13-1 - Loss of sound, no sound or delayed sound most of the time (pretty much a nightmare).
18-1 - loss of sound and picture tiling every minute or so.
27-1 & 27-2 - Good last night, but not consistent.
40-1 - Looks good but I do not speak Spanish.

How do these channels work for you?

Thanks,

Mark

Mark, I also have good signal strength on all channels but have same exact issues that you have. Most dissappointed with KOLD because there is alot of HD on channel 13 I like to watch. Hoping they get the digital broadcast thing figured out by NCAA tounament time as I understand that CBS will carry 1 of the regional venues & the Final Four in HD.


Chris

KOLD. KOLD. I was receiving it well except of course for the 48 second glitch. Today all of a sudden I have trouble locking on at all. It is constantly breaking up. The level on my Dish 811 receiver is at 70%, no change from before. Anyone else see a problem today?

I just checked KOLD (Crossing Jordan) both picture and sound are great. I do not experience the 48 second drop out that you are talking about. I watched for 10 minutes with no issues.

Sorry guys, I was watching KVOA (4) not KOLD (13). I have the same issue on KOLD as you have and have the 48 second drop outs.

I was watching Crossing Jorden with no troubles (yes, 4-1) until about the 2nd commercial break when it bombed my receiver and locked up the computer. Just when I thought things were looking up. I'm about ready to give up on this whole HD thing until they get things worked out someday :(.

Originally posted by smsprague
John,

I good signal strength on all the channels but disappointing performance. I can now say, "it depends". It depends on which receiver I use. With the Dish 6000, KVOA (4-1) and the two PBS outlets (KUAT 6-1 et al and KUAS 27-1) were very good to excellent. KGUN (9-1), KMSB (11-1), and KWBA (58-1) were good. KTTU (18-1) was very shaky. KOLD (13-1) was usable, but frequently breaking up when I first installed the antenna a couple of weekends ago. However, within a couple of days it literally disappeared and no amount of antenna tweaking resulted in a lockable signal. Something had abruptly changed.

A couple of days ago, I obtained an LG LST-3100A receiver. This is an OTA/Cable STB only that's a real improvement over the 6000 in many ways. With this box, all channels, with the notable exception of KOLD, are received almost flawlessly. (I saw a couple of minor breakups/freezes while watching "Crossing Jordan" on KVOA last night. Both occurred during commercial breaks where there were rapid scene/level changes stressing the encoding system. BTW, the writing on that show is really abysmal!) I haven't had the opportunity to watch any channel with this receiver for extended periods of time (that show the exception) so really can't "grade" them. KOLD remains a vexing problem, but at least the 3100A sees the channel and can lock up to it. It breaks up constantly though and is unwatchable. Now I have enough of a signal to work with to allow further antenna games.

Oh yeah, I don't speak Spanish either and the current antenna orientation doesn't pick up KHRR (40-1). KVUE nee KXGR (46-1) does not appear to be on the air.

John,

Do you get 11-1 (DTV 25) and 18-1 (DTV 19) without loss of sound and picture tiling? As a note the picture on 13-1 (DTV 32) over the last couple of days has had continuous tiling.

Thanks,

Mark

Originally posted by smsprague
John,

Do you get 11-1 (DTV 25) and 18-1 (DTV 19) without loss of sound and picture tiling? As a note the picture on 13-1 (DTV 32) over the last couple of days has had continuous tiling.

Thanks,

Mark Yes. Both are solid as a rock. As of this writing (9:15 am), I'm also getting good video from KOLD (surprise!), but, except for the briefest syllable once every great while, no audio. It seems that they must be working on the encoder back at the plant...

Yup. This morning KOLD video is fine, sound is not working at all. I thought there might be an interesting test when CBS is broadcasting real time basketball today at 9:30 AM, but it made no difference so we know the problem is at KOLD. The Dish network local (SD) channel is fine (8951). I wonder how they get their signal. Anyone know? Is it from the analog signal?

Comcast finally got their act together and has started to roll out HD in Tucson. Very good news for those of us on the NW side with no hope of getting OTA signals.

They currently have:

UPN
FOX
PBS
ESPN
Showtime
HBO
Cinemax
Starz
INHD1
INHD2

Still working on getting CBS, NBC and ABC broadcasts. Some stupid dispute with the networks.

I'm curious where you heard about this, or have you seen this in person? I talked to them only a month or so ago and it was still a year off or more. It took some talking on the phone to get them to tell me it was digital, but not actual HD broadcasts. Maybe I was talking to the wrong person.

Its true. They told me in December no plans at all so I got Dish (1 year commitment). Comcast started a soft (unadvertised) rollout a few weeks ago. I would like someone to reply that actually has it to confirm list of HD channels. Last time I checked (2 weeks ago) the list posted here was right except some question on ESPN. To me the local station HD channels are most important. If they actually get the other networks I will switch after my contract ends. However, I did some checking on Comcast companies around the country and found that very, very few have all the networks. So I am not sure this will pan out but we'll see. You know Comcast also has an unadvertised Dish buyout deal where they will give you $25 off per month for 16 months if you switch from Dish.

Just got the box installed this past weekend. Works great. Only costs $5 more if you already have digital cable. If not, you'll have to upgrade to at least the lowest tier digital package which I think is another $10.

But they currently have specials on Showtime and HBO, so you can get a whole slew of new channels for dirt cheap at least for a few months.

ESPN definitely works. Not much actual HD content on it, but some of the NCAA games were in HD.

I live in the Northeast and am now getting NBC from Mesa (KPNX). Try digital channel 36, will show up as 12-1. They display the non-HD in a strechted mode that fills the screen better than Tucson channel 4-1.

I've been lurking for some time now and have read the Tucson thread top to bottom.

Setup: Samsung DLP 56", DirectTV (oval w/3 LNB), Hughes DTV box with component output to the TV, and a Samsung HD931 (DVI connect to TV). I'm not using any surround sound as of yet.

1) I have seen several HD DTV boxes mentioned in this forum. I am really looking at the Sony HD300. It costs over $600 but from what I have read in other forums its one of the best. Comments?

2) I live in Rita Ranch and am wondering what antenna for OTA HD will be best for me. I am only interested in NBC (4.1), CBS (13.1), FOX (11.1), and ABC (9.1). All 4 of these appear to be at 359 degrees on the compass from my location @ 22.4 miles (Mt Lemmon?). Antennaweb shows NBC, CBS, FOX as requiring yellow (small multi-directional) but ABC requires red (medium-directional)? What is up with that? Anyway, any suggestions on make/model for an indoor preferably if signal strength is good enough or an outdoor if necessary. Would I need an amplifier?

Any input or recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Originally posted by unc879wins
1) I have seen several HD DTV boxes mentioned in this forum. I am really looking at the Sony HD300. It costs over $600 but from what I have read in other forums its one of the best. Comments?

2) I live in Rita Ranch and am wondering what antenna for OTA HD will be best for me. I am only interested in NBC (4.1), CBS (13.1), FOX (11.1), and ABC (9.1). All 4 of these appear to be at 359 degrees on the compass from my location @ 22.4 miles (Mt Lemmon?). Antennaweb shows NBC, CBS, FOX as requiring yellow (small multi-directional) but ABC requires red (medium-directional)? What is up with that? Anyway, any suggestions on make/model for an indoor preferably if signal strength is good enough or an outdoor if necessary. Would I need an amplifier?

Any input or recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks. I'm not familiar with the feature set on the box you currently have or the Sony, but if it's a receiver for OTA (Over-The-Air) signals only that you need, then I suggest you consider the LG LST-3100A. I've had one for a couple of weeks and have had a limited opportunity to compare it directly with a Dish 6000 STB that incorporates a much earlier generation ATSC tuner. It's ability to recover difficult (low level, error-ridden) signals places it head and shoulders above the 6000. It has Y, Pr, and Pb outputs, RGB outputs and a DVI output. It also has simultaneously available composite and S-video analog outputs. It also has a QAM tuner which can be used for non-scrambled digital CATV signals, although the real value of that feature is questionable. The street price is under $350. The one reservation I have about it is that it's black level on the component outputs seems unusually low. I'm using a second set of component inputs on my RPTV for the 3100 while everything else (6000 and DVD) is routed through an A/V receiver. I haven't had time to move the wiring around to see whether something else is accounting for the level difference (which is possible). For the moment, I have to run the RPTV brightness at least 10% higher for comparable gray scale between the two sets of inputs.

Regarding antenna recommendations, get a Silver Sensor indoor antenna (marketed by Zenith). It's available at Sears or Best Buy (I believe). It's also available from several online outlets, including buy.com, for $20 to $30.
The DTV stations you mentioned are all located on Mt. Bigelow in the Catalinas. Antennaweb may be using a different color code for KGUN (ABC) because that station is running somewhat less power than the others. That shouldn't pose a problem with a Silver Sensor from your location however.

Originally posted by Andrikos
Hello John,
I live in Rancho Sahuarita and antennaweb recommends red (Medium Directional).
Above you recommended the Zenith silver sensor which is only UHF. However, KVOA, KOLD, KMSB, KUAT are VHF and all are on Mount Bigelow (at 15° my direction). Am I assuming correctly that the silver sensor (indoor) with receive the above channels?
Thanks,
Andreas The NTSC stations are VHF and the "virtual" channels used to label the DTV channels reflect that. However the actual DTV signals transmitted are all, in fact, UHF. For example, KVOA is channel 4 NTSC (analog) and channel 23 ATSC (digital). The receivers will remap channel 23 to channel 4-1. KUAT, analog channel 6, has its digital counterpart, KUAT-DT, broadcasting on channel 30 which is remapped (and sub-divided) to 6-1 through 6-5. You need a UHF antenna for all Tucson DTV stations.

I neglected to answer the specific question of whether the Silver Sensor will work at a Rancho Sahuarita location. Unfortunately, all I know about that area is what I see in the TV ads and that's not terribly helpful. If you don't have too many wire-backed stucco walls to look through (including the walls of your neighbor's house) and don't have a major mountain in the way (antennaweb apparently doesn't think so), then yeah, the Silver Sensor should work just fine. I can receive KWBA, 50 miles away, with a Silver Sensor with no problem at all. On the other hand, since Mt. Lemmon is in the way, I have to really jump through hoops to receive the stations on Bigelow, only 20 miles away. A Silver Sensor indoors just won't cut it.

KOLD 13-1 OTA, is anyone else still having problems?? All week it was back to its semi-periodic small breaking up, though watchable. Now (Saturday) it is more constant. As I recall the same thing happened last weekend. Is anyone getting KOLD with an OTA antenna cleanly? If you reply can you tell me what kind of receiver you have, either way, works well or not. I have Dish 811.

I spoke to Chuck Amy (chief engineer at KOLD) a few weeks ago and they were looking at some embedded EPG issues but he said he does not see the problem at the station on his receiver which is a Zenith (model ??).

Chuck thought it might be some incompatability in some receivers with their encoding. Not likely because the quality changes, unless they are playing with it. If I get enough data back I will call him again and try to help.

To add to my previous post, this afternoon at about 5:30 (Saturday) it went back to its "almost OK" mode, short blips every few minutes. Hmmm

Just check CBS (13-1) UCONN-Depaul game and I am loosing audio about every 2 minutes. I have a Samsung T165 HDTV receiver. 13-1 almost never works for me, half the time the sound continually breaks up or I get the loss of sound every minute or so. As a note, both NBC (4-1) and ABC (9-1) work perfect. It must be an issue with CBS.

Originally posted by smsprague
Just check CBS (13-1) UCONN-Depaul game and I am loosing audio about every 2 minutes. I have a Samsung T165 HDTV receiver. 13-1 almost never works for me, half the time the sound continually breaks up or I get the loss of sound every minute or so. As a note, both NBC (4-1) and ABC (9-1) work perfect. It must be an issue with CBS. Is it only audio that is disturbed when this happens? Have you been able to watch the STB's signal indicator to tell whether there are simultaneous dips in signal?

Originally posted by babakanoosh
KOLD 13-1 OTA, is anyone else still having problems?? All week it was back to its semi-periodic small breaking up, though watchable. Now (Saturday) it is more constant. As I recall the same thing happened last weekend. Is anyone getting KOLD with an OTA antenna cleanly? If you reply can you tell me what kind of receiver you have, either way, works well or not. I have Dish 811.
As you know, KOLD is the one station that gives me fits. It is too unreliable to watch. I do see occasional audio dropouts (when everything else is hanging in there), but there is no regularity and they are infrequent. The received signal is marginal, however, and only a dB or two away from dropping off the digital cliff. The result is frequent tear-outs, break-ups and freezes. I'm doing good to get ten minutes or more without interruptions. That's with the LG LST-3100A (rebadged Zenith). The DISH 6000 can no longer achieve lock on KOLD--not even momentarily.