Hello all,
May 1 2002 is soon approching so I figured I would start a thread about our locals going digital.

I just got off of the phone with the engineer from the local WB station KWCV Digital CH. 31 and it looks like they WILL be broadcasting in Digital starting May 1. It will just be upconverted from 480I to 480P at first but it should be an improvement from the cable or OTA anaolog signal. It is too bad the WB doesn't have any HDTV programming yet. He did say they would go on full power for the first couple of months.

I think all of the rest of the stations filed for an extension except KPTS the PBS affiliate which doesn't have to be ready until next year anyway.

I think the next station to go digital will be KAKE the ABC affiliate on digital CH. 21 last I heard they were shooting for early spring. I have a call in to their head engineer and will post back when I hear something.

If anybody wants to read all of the extension requests they can be found here on the form just select service as digital TV select CP extension under application type and put KS for Kansas in the state box.

APPLICATION SEARCH HERE (http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_sear.htm)


I also have links to maps of where all of the towers will be located. It looks like they were all smart enough to put them in the same general direction from Wichita- NW. It looks like KWCH will have the furthest tower about 40 miles from Wichita but that still shouldn't be a problem. Here are the links.

KAKE ABC Digital CH. 21 digital tower link (http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapgen/gif?lon=-97.518836&lat=37.7813873&iwd=750&iht=750&mark=-97.518836,37.7813873,bluestar,KAKE-TV_WICHITA0.06_KS;&on=water,miscell,counties,CITIES,places&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=0.5&wid=0.5)

KSAS FOX Digital CH. 26 Digital tower link (http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapgen/gif?lon=-97.510276&lat=37.7777786&iwd=750&iht=750&mark=-97.510276,37.7777786,bluestar,KSAS-TV_WICHITA0.06_KS;&on=water,miscell,counties,CITIES,places&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=0.5&wid=0.5)

KWCV WB Digital CH. 31 Digital tower link (http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapgen/gif?lon=-97.524726&lat=37.8002777&iwd=750&iht=750&mark=-97.524726,37.8002777,bluestar,KWCV_WICHITA0.06_KS;&on=water,miscell,counties,CITIES,places&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=0.5&wid=0.5)

KSNW NBC Digital CH. 45 Digital tower link (http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapgen/gif?lon=-97.514999&lat=37.7736091&iwd=750&iht=750&mark=-97.514999,37.7736091,bluestar,KSNW_WICHITA0.06_KS;&on=water,miscell,counties,CITIES,places&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=0.5&wid=0.5)

KWCH CBS Digital CH. 19 Digital tower link (http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapgen/gif?lon=-97.763610&lat=38.0605545&iwd=750&iht=750&mark=-97.763610,38.0605545,bluestar,KWCH-TV_HUTCHINSON06_KS;&on=water,miscell,counties,places,CITIES,&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=1.5&wid=1.5)

KPTS PBS Digital CH. 29 Digital tower link (http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapgen/gif?lon=-97.511665&lat=37.9397239&iwd=750&iht=750&mark=-97.511665,37.9397239,bluestar,KPTS_HUTCHINSON06_KS;&on=water,miscell,counties,places,CITIES,&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=1.5&wid=1.5)

KSCC UPN Digital CH. 35 Digital tower link (http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapgen/gif?lon=-97.511665&lat=37.9397239&iwd=750&iht=750&mark=-97.511665,37.9397239,bluestar,KSCC_HUTCHINSON06_KS;&on=water,miscell,counties,places,CITIES,&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=1.5&wid=1.5)

It looks like all of the extensions that were filed by our locals were granted so let's hope they are all online by 11/01/2002.

If anybody wants to call some other stations or has anything to add feel free to post it here. Maybe if there are enough people in Wichita we can get a newsletter going or something.


Thanks
Kevin C. :)

Good work Kevin. It would be interesting to see if I could pull in the Wichita stations from up here in Manhattan. I seriously doubt I can as the spreadsheet I have says I am 115 miles. Perhaps on a good day. I do know KAAS is replicating KSAS and that tower is in Salina so I would expect when they do digital, the replicating tower will too. I will try that one as I watch a few shows on FOX that I would like to see in EDTV.

Again, lots of good work and good luck with down there!

Yahoo!!
WB is on the air with a test signal. The first digital signal in Wichita. I am getting a signal strength of 90-94 on my dish network 6000 and about 85-90 with my DTC-100.
Oddly enough on both receivers it comes in on CH. 33 not 31 which is where it is supposed to be. Wierd.
I talked to Marty Heffner the engineer and he wasn't sure why it was coming in on 33-01 either. He said they would probably have some prime time programming on there by the end of the week and maybe as early as tomorrow night. He said they are upconverting everything to 1080I.

I am using a large rooftop radio shack antenna right now. I will try a smaller indoor antenna tonight and get back with you guys.

Hopefully this will push some of the other locals to get off their asses and get theirs done.



Kevin C. :)

Kevin,
Where is the tower located for the WB station? Also, do you know what power they are running at??

Thanks!

I doubt I have any shot at getting it, but I can dream can't I.

Here is the Map for WB Tower (http://tiger.census.gov/cgi-bin/mapgen/gif?lon=-97.524726&lat=37.8002777&iwd=750&iht=750&mark=-97.524726,37.8002777,bluestar,KWCV_WICHITA0.06_KS;&on=water,miscell,counties,CITIES,places&off=streets,GRID,shorelin&ht=0.5&wid=0.5)

Marty told me they were running full power right now and for the first few months they will keep it at that just to run it in, then they are going to back it down.

Yahoo maps show manhattan is about 135 miles from Colwich, which is where the tower is. It is probably a little closer as the bird flys. I would get a tall pole and put a good large radio shack antenna on it and give it a try.
Just point it just slightly to the west of Wichita. Who knows on a good day you might get it.

Right now they are only running 4:3 480I.


Thanks
Kevin C. :)

WB is temporarily off the air - until maybe tomorrow (5/30) or Friday. I found this out when I called the station to ask for an antenna recommendation since I was able to pick up NOTHING on my Radio Shack High-Definition powered set-top antenna. I'm all dressed up with my new 65" HDTV and Hughes E86 Hi-Def receiver, and I just happened to try to tune in when the only station broadcasting in digital is offline!

Marty Heffner, chief engineer at KWCV, tells me that all the towers are in the same general direction, so a medium direction antenna placed in my attic and oriented correctly should allow me to pick up all the stations. That's way cool because I was dreading the battle with my HOA, and irritating my upper crust neighbors! :)

I will post more when I am able to pick up their signal.

BTW, the chief engineer at KAKE channel 10 Dale xxxxxx tells me they are ready except for an antenna, and hope/expect to be on the air in "a few weeks" or "by the end of June."

The General Manager at KSN 3, Al Buch, put this spin on things: "KSN will be transmitting a digital signal sometime this fall. However, very few programs on any network will be transmitted in High Definition Television. Right now only the Jay Leno show is in HDTV and NBC does not have plans to significantly increase HDTV programming. The reason is because very few consumers can afford the full HDTV sets. Sets which can display the full 1080I signal today still cost around $7500." I just bought a 65" widescreen TV and Hi-Def receiver for a total of $3800, so Al needs to update his database.

Not a peep out of KWCH 12 after an email and a voicemail two days ago, so I called again today and was told by one of their engineers, "this fall...tower problems". When pressed he suggested "October."

At one time I'd heard the PBS station would be on ahead of schedule, but I haven't heard anything more. I haven't called them yet.

Oh, Marty Heffner offered that WB had no HD programming currently but was talking about four hours per week this fall. Which shows had not been announced. I'll take 4 hours.

David


18-June - Corrected a typo. KSN Wichita is channel 3, not channel 12.

One addendum to add to my experience so far, this in regard to getting DirecTV. Radio Shack (the 800 number I called to schedule installation) was insistant that I get a letter from my HOA specifying where the dish could be placed. I offered that I would sign a release accepting full responsibility for the cost of relocating the dish if required by my HOA. No go, They were intransigent. Fortunately the local RS installer tells me they will accept a signed release and will put it where I tell them to put it.

I'm not being an a-hole - I have called the head of the architectural committee (left a message), and I had a prefessional AV installer recommend a good mounting location, which I pre-wired for. It's the most inconspicuous possible location. What's funny is, when I walked outside to double check where the dish was going to go, I noticed the dish on my neighbors house, not 20 ft from where I'll be putting mine. I had never noticed it before.

I am relieved to hear that an attic antenna should work just fine for me, since I did NOT want to put a big ugly antenna on my roof but was afraid I was going to HAVE to in order to pick up the DTV feeds. The local cable company is saying "end of this year" and the "local-to-local" programming available from DirectTV will be digital NTSC only, not HD. In other words, the only option right now is an antenna.

David

David,
I assume you mean Cox when you say they tell you end of the year??
I called our local tech here in Manhattan, and he said they would be doing it, and I asked if by the end of the year, and he said he didn't think so. But Topeka is market 138 and you guys are in the top 100, so maybe that is the reason.

Tim

Can you tell me who you talked to?? I have the email of the VP of Cox Kansas if you would like?

David,
Thanks for taking the time to make some contacts.
Yes I too was wondering what happened to the WB.
How far are you from the tower David?
I am about 15-17 miles from the towers and I got it real well with an indoor antenna from radio shack. About a 90 signal strength.

Good news on the cable carriage too. I didn't even bother calling them because I thought it would be a long time before they would carry it.



Kevin C. :)

Kevin, I could swear I replied to your post. I must have forgot to click the Submit Reply button. I hate it when that happens.

I am told I am only maybe 10 miles from the tower. It beats my why antennaweb lists me in the red zone. I'm in far NW Wichita, so there's not a whole lot between me and the tower. It's not like there are any mountains or skyscrapers out here. I ended up with an 8' Radio Shack antenna, the VU-90XR (on sale for $25). Right now it's mounted on the deck. It will get moved to the attic, but I want to know first if it's is going to work before I go to the trouble. It picks up the analog channels just fine and dandy, but I won't know if it handles HD until WB is back on the air.

Don't jump for joy just yet about the "rumour" that Cox cable will be HD this year. I will believe it when I see it. In the meantime I am not waiting - my DirecTV dish gets installed in the morning.

David

I sent the following question to Martin Heffner, Director of Engineering for KWCV, the local WB station:

"What kind of antenna do I need to pick up your digital broadcast? I live in Reflection Ridge in northwest Wichita. I have a Hughes E86 Hi Def receiver."

Here is Mr. Heffner's reply:

"A standard vhf/uhf antenna or a set of rabbit ears should be sufficient. I know that Radio Shack has quite a selection of what they call digital set top antennas. I have not had any experience with them, but they maybe fine. I prefer the outdoor antenna do to the fact it is directional and has better gain. If an outside antenna is not allowed in Reflection Ridge then placing the antenna in the attic should work well in respect to your location of the transmitter. Our transmitter is located NW at Colwich. I live just west of you about three miles and I was using just a set of rabbit ears and got ch31 just fine. I would not recommend using the rabbit ears in lower levels of the house such as the basement. It may work but may not be reliable.

Our DTV transmitter is currently shutdown at this time do to an up converter failure. I only have one at this time and should have a replacement in today or tomorrow. I hope to be back up and running Thursday or Friday."

The problem right now is there are SO few people even aware that WB is on the air, and maybe fewer still with the equipment to see it, that we just don't KNOW yet what kind of antenna's will work and which won't. I guess maybe the 8' boom antenna is overkill, but for $25, it's not like I can go too far wrong. Heck, the 50' of RG6 cost more than the antenna. The amplified "High-Definition" set-top model was around $80.

-David

Does anyone have an update for WB 31 DT?
I still am not getting it. Is it still off of the air or
do I need to rescan for it using my DTC-100?

Kevin C. :)

Kevin,

I'm picking up WB on 33-1. It has been back on the air since last Saturday or Sunday.

David

Just a brief update. I installed the Radio Shack VU-90XR antenna in my attic over the weekend. I'm reading a signal strength on my sat box between 92 and 100 for WB 33, indicating my 8' antenna is overkill. Analog channels 10 and 12 are as good as cable but channel 3 has some "snow" and channel 8 (PBS) is weak. Since all I use the antenna for is local HD broadcasts, I think a much smaller antenna would have been perfectly adequate. On the other hand, the 8' antenna cost only $25 and fit into the attic just fine, so why spend MORE for a smaller antenna?

I haven't heard any more about KAKE channel 10, which I was told about a week or two ago would begin broadcasts in "a few weeks". I sent another email to their chief engineer today asking for an update.

David

Thanks David,
I did a new channel scan on my DTC-100 and WB is now back. I am getting about 88% with my indoor powered rabbit ears.
I will be watching for KAKE DT 21.

Kevin C. :)

I just received this email:

We are currently waiting for delivery of our DTV transmit antenna. A tower crew has not yet been scheduled. I would now estimate the on-air date to be sometime in July. I hope this helps.

Dale Morrell
Chief Engineer
KAKE-TV
David

Donald Vest, Director of Engineering at CBS affiliate KWCH channel 12, reports "tower problems" will delay their DTV broadcasts until October. As you can see from his message, he didn't elaborate on what these problems might be, but it sounds like a euphamism to me.

David




Due to tower problems I do not believe we will be on before October.

Donald H. Vest

I bet most of them just make in before the end of their 6 month extension deadline. Hardly a coincidence I think.


Kevin C. :)

David Travert, General Manager of KAKE-TV, channel 10, reports "We're just waiting for our antenna to be built and hope to be up by the end of August."

"Hope" rather than "expect". From "a couple of weeks" back in May to "the end of August" in July. Oh well, as long as the local stations are on the air this fall, September or October, all will be forgotten, but I sure wish I had more than two HD channels to watch (HD Net and HBO)!

David

An article in today's Wichita Eagle reports:

KAKE Channel 10 has received their tranmitter and a crew is scheduled to begin installing it next week. General Manager Dave Trabert says "We hope to be one the air with digital by the end of August." I guess they figure it's going to take two weeks to install the transmitter.

Next up is expected to be FOX and UPN, KSAS 24 and KSCC 36 respectively. David Caruso, chief engineer for the sister stations says they should be up by October 15.

KWCH 12, in the person of general manager Kathy Mohn, is now saying Nov 1, which would be the last day of their 6 month extension.

KSNW 3 is bringing up the rear, with GM Al Buch now saying they "should be ready by year's end". I'm going to send an email to Al and ask him what's up, and whether they believe the FCC will grant them another extension.

David


BTW, what's up with Fox advertising Wide Screen High Definition on episodes of the X-Files? I thought they were strictly 480p? That is NOT High Definition, but ANY industry standard.

From www.coxkansas.com

"Cox is planning to make HDTV available to approximately one half of our digital customers in 2002. The remaining markets will be launched as soon as possible thereafter. Cox has not released a specific system-by-system launch schedule at this time, but we will keep you informed about exciting new offerings in your area."

I switched from cable to DirecTV since two months ago there was no CLUE as to when DTV would be available via cable and I wasn't willing to sit on my hands and wait. But I also thought the local stations would be on the air May 1, and as of today, there is exactly ONE station broadcasting a digital signal (WB 33) and they don't have ANYTHING in HD - it's all upconverted NTSC. Anyway, I am VERY pleased (and impressed!) to hear that Cox plans on offering DTV before the end of the year. Alas, this is more an "estimate" than a promise, so I remain skeptical, yet hopeful. I just can't imagine very many people going to the trouble of mounting an antenna just to receive the local HD feeds, and I have always felt DTV wouldn't really happen until it was available on cable. And when it IS available on cable, maybe it really will take off and never look back.

No mention of specific monthly cost for HD service or the price of the cable box.

BTW, their FAQ is generally accurate, but I continue to laugh at their comparison with satellite. Is it somehow easier to connect a cable box than a satellite box? And the antenna is no big deal since the sat box includes the local stations in its channel guide and handles the two sources seamlessly. Ugly/unsightly dish? Heck, my next door neighbor had one for a year before I ever even SAW it, and mine is just as discreetly mounted. On the other hand, getting it all hooked up WAS a P*I*T*A and beyond what most people could manage, so I must concede they do have an advantage over satellite in convenience.

David

KAKE TV did indeed begin installation of their DTV transmitter last week. A friend saw a piece on the news and they reportedly said they hoped to be fully operational within 2 months. The Wichita Eagle reported they would be up by the end of this month, i.e. two weeks, so I don't know who to believe. I haven't talked to anyone at KAKE recently, so this is all just what I've heard and what I've read.

Speaking of what I've read, I did send Al Buch (KSN channel 3) an email about the Eagle article where he said they would be up by the end of the year. He responded "All I'm allowed to say is what you read." Not sure what's up there, but it doesn't sound good. This obviously means they will be requesting an additional extension from the FCC.

According to document FCC 97-115, here will be the DTV channels for the Wichita stations. The first number is the current (analog) broadcast channel, the second is the new (digital) channel. The number in () is where DirecTV lists them in my channel guide. For example, WB, which is broadcasting upconverted NTSC material on their DTV channel, shows up on my HD set-top box as 33-1 rather than 34. Fox and UPN, which are expected to begin broadcasts by October 15, already have entries in my channel guide. KAKE does NOT yet have a listing in the guide.

3 (NBC) - 45
8 (PBS) - 29
10 (ABC) - 21 (??)
12 (CBS) - 19
24 (Fox) - 25 (18-1)
33 (WB) - 34 (33-1)
36 (UPN) - 35 (36-1)

Kansas DTV channel allotments (http://www.transmitter.com/FCC97115/KSatwch.html)

I'm going to start checking channels 21 and 10-1 every few days, in hopes KAKE will be broadcasting SOMETHING before they make a public announcement. I'm guessing (OK, hoping would be a better word) they might broadcast during the day, perhaps at low power, while they are testing.

David

I am sure glad that somebody is keeping track of the HDTV progress in Wichita. I am just getting into home theater and really thinking about getting a dtc-100. I just never seen hdtv and would love to check it out before I spend the money. Do both Kevin and hayesdb have projectors or do you guys have rear projection systems. Drop me a line if you have a chance. Thanks.

Hessman :)

Hessman,

I have a 65" Mitsubishi rear projection TV, Hughes E86 HD receiver, DirecTV, and an antenna for the local HD channels. Since getting the HD receiver early this summer, I have watched HDNet or HBO 95% of the time, and regular TV 5% of the time. The best HD is breathtaking, regardless of whether it's the Miss Hawaiin Tropic International Pageant, a baseball game, or a documentary.

I will also have a front projector with an 8' wide screen within a couple of days. I am really anxious to see HD on the BIG screen. Imagine watching your favorite shows each week in High Def on an 8' wide screen. :)

David

David,
I have been reading about the WB going HD, and they say your WB will pass it come next month. Do you know what power they are currently at?? I am putting up an antenna (Cox dropped the discount on cable modems, so I am dropping their basic service) and would try to get them so see Smallville in HD, but Wichita to Manhattan is quite a stretch, but I am willing to try.

Also, Cox is clueless.

What HD programming does WB have? I was under the impression they didn't have any. I don't know about their power, but I'm guessing picking it up in Manhattan is going to be "no way Jose". I think 30 miles or so is about max, but I have no idea where I heard that and it could be completely wrong.

I have been pondering the cable issue myself, and you are right, since the cable modem discount no longer applies, there is no point in paying for the basic cable, except that I currently do not have the other TV's connected to the antenna, one of them doesn't have a sat box (so add $5 a month for another sat box), and the one that does isn't an HD box so we'd be stuck watching the antenna feed even after the local stations begin broadcasting HD, and the antenna signals aren't that great. SO, I'm kinda stuck at the moment.

I called Cox a couple of months ago and was told they already HAD High Definition! Even this sales person didn't know that "Digital Cable" has NOTHING to do with "Digital Television", or DTV, much less anything to do with High Definition.

Digital Cable is nothing more than digitized and compressed NTSC. What you see on your TV is 480i, just like the current analog broadcasts. It's purpose is primarily to offer more stations in the same bandwidth, not to improve quality. As long as COX is quantity over quality, I will keep ragging on them. I have HEARD that they will be offering DTV by the end of the year. I anxiously await. Not. I mean, just what is it they are going to have that I don't already have NOW, with DirecTV and a $50 Radio Shack antenna?

David

Right on. I would venture to guess, however, that you will be getting access to HDTV in Wichita via Cox sooner than we in Manhattan (topeka) will since you are a larger market. It is pretty sad to me that our states capitol has only 4 Tv stations, and only 2 that does news. Heck, the Fox from there is a low power station.

The WB announced that they will be showing several shows in HDTV this fall season. Here is a link:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/020821/cgw027_1.html

KAKE is not yet on the air. I'm checking every few days, although I'm not absolutely positive I know where to look. It'll be 21 according to the FCC allocations, but it might show up elsewhere on my Hughes E86 HD receiver. I'm not sure of the relationship between the actual channel and the, I'll call it "virtual channel" for lack of a better word. For example, WB is channel 34 in the allocation list, but is on channel 33-1 on my HD receiver. KAKE could well show up as 10-1, or even 10-2 since 10-1 is my antenna feed. And it's not just a matter of flipping through channels since the channels have to be specifically enabled in the Hughes channel guide.

I think I'll send Mr Trabert another email and see if he has any better feeling about when they will be broadcasting than he did two weeks ago, and maybe he can tell me what channel they will show up on.

David

I sent David Trabert an email asking when KAKE would begin digital broadcasts. Here is his reply:

We are in the final testing stages and hope to begin digital service in a couple of weeks. Once we begin broadcasting there will be both on-air and web site promotion.

I don't know how the channel guides will list the channel but we're hoping it will be listed separately, even though the programming will be the same as our analog service.

Dave Trabert
VP / General Manager
KAKE-TV

haysdb,

If any of your stations in Wichita start broadcasting do you think some people in north Oklahoma could receive some programming?

Kevin

Kevin,

I did a Google search and came across the following links. The "fringe" for DTV reception appears to be (typically) between 40 and 70 miles, and can be greater if you are willing to go to great lengths.

David


COFDM vs . 8-VSB
CBS DTV/HDTV Field Test Report
KYW-DT, Philadelphia, PA
http://web-star.com/hdtv/8vsbcbstst.html

"The outdoor testing in Philadelphia shows that if even a marginal analog NTSC picture was viewable, then a perfect DTV service was available. The field measurements of over 100 sites indicated a 99% success rate. Perhaps more important, when testing indoor reception, if even a marginal NTSC picture was viewable, DTV service was available 94% of the time."

Here is an ADVERTISEMENT for an "HD-8200 Deep Fringe Antenna":

http://www.skyvision.com/store/mi1531010.html

"Even if you live 50 to 80 miles from the nearest TV transmission tower, you can receive high definition off-air signals. This antenna's 71 active elements trap as much available signal as possible for greater picture quality. 110" wide."

Wineguard makes a claim for their CA-7084 for "40 to 70 miles".

Broadcasting & Cable indicated the FCC requirement for DTV is (or was originally proposed to be) 55 miles.

One person in a forum claims he can receive a DTV signal from 80 miles away with a parabolic antenna mounted in his ATTIC:

http://www.hdnut.com/comments.php?op=showreply&tid=9&sid=18&pid=6&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0#9

From the Home Theater Mag archives
http://www.hometheatermag.com/printarchives.cgi?7

"Depending on the terrain, the fringe area can easily be 60 to 70 miles. There are those who take extreme measures to get signals as far away as 134 miles! I know one fella who has a Channel Master Parascope parabolic UHF antenna with an 85-foot tower and a 7-foot diameter. Yes, 7 feet!"

Good news of sorts. I found KAKE's digital feed. I tuned to 21-1 on my Hughes DirecTV HD receiver and up popped color bars and a legend "KAKE DT" in the bottom right corner confirming that this is in fact KAKE's digital feed. Another thing - even though I punched in 21-1 on my remote, the channel displayed is 10-1. This fits with my experience with WB, whos digital channel is actually 34 but which shows up as 33-1. 33 is WB's analog station.

I found channel 21 by going into the signal strength menu on the sat box and selecting "local digital" and scrolling through the channels. I found singal on channels 21 and 31. Channel 21 is obviously KAKE, but what the heck is 31? It must be WB since there there is no signal on 34 where I expected to find WB. Hmmm.

David

OK..I finally broke down and found a open box dtc-100 at CC today for $300. I could not pass this deal up. I hooked it up to my Infocus LP500 and man it looks great. I was wandering what type of antenna to install on the roof now. I know a cheap uhf antenna should work but didn't know if anybody had any deals out there. Let me know.

Hessman

Determine how far you are from the antennas NW of Wichita and this will tell you what "zone" you are in which will determine what size antenna you need. The Radio Shack where I bought my antenna had a map with the zones on it, which told me I didn't need a very large antenna at all since I am NW Wichita myself in sight of three of the towers. I ignored the recommendation and installed the biggest one I thought I could get in my attic, since I just KNOW the HOA would cry bloody murder if I put an antenna on my roof. I know about the "right to access" law or whatever it's called, I just elected not to provoke a fight.

Really the upshot is though that since nobody is yet offering a true digital signal, nobody really knows what kinds of antennas will be needed. As soon as KAKE starts broadcasting something besides color bars maybe we can start figuring this out.

The Radio Shack antennas are cheap, but don't look like they will survive a strong breeze. They (and others) offer special HDTV antennas but this is almost totally marketing - you don't need a special antenna. I think you are right about needing just a UHF antenna, but its actually rather hard to FIND one - most are combination units unless you order one.

I came across a few web sights that were considerably more helpful than anybody I found in Wichita. I looked up antennas in the yellow pages and called some numbers, but nobody had a CLUE about what was needed for DTV. I don't remember the URL's but they shouldn't be hard to find if you do a Google search for "HDTV antenna" or "DTV antenna" and then start narrowing it down from there.

David

I read in the paper where Al Buch, General Manager at KSN, got fired. If you look up toward the top of this thread you will see I've given Al a hard time, but by golly, he answered my emails and was willing to have a dialog, and he earned my respect. I was sad to hear this news. I'm sure "the new guy" will be far too busy for awhile to answer an emails, but that won't stop me from trying. They were already going to be the last to broadcast a DTV signal and I'm pretty sure that's not going to change with the new management, but it's worth asking.

Channel 10 is still broadcasting color bars on channel 21. No clue when they will start broadcasting something, but with new shows starting this week or next, one would THINK that now would be a pretty good time. I started getting a daily eNews thing from them, so I assume there will be something in there when they start transmitting something. ???

David

haysdb - put up any antenna for LOCAL reception you want - the HOA can go pound sand - see my sig..

BTW, I grew up in Hutchinson.

I live in park city so I know that HOA won't fight about the antenna but I have to get it past my wife though....Well I will pick up an antenna and try it out in my attic I am sure that I would not have much of a problem since I am not very far. I did read and find the site where it tells me that I need a med. antenna. Hopfully all the stations will come online soon. I put my sat-c kit on so now I have showtime in HD too. Thanks for all the info guys..

Hessman,

Did you buy the Sat-C kit or did DirecTV send it to you for free? Are you subscribing to Showtime or is it "in the clear"?

David

I really appreciate that someone started and maintains this thread.

I live in Goddard and I'm really on the fence regarding whether to wait for Cox to offer HDTV or whether to abandon them and go with DirecTV or DISH.

Any thoughts?

XRay,

I went with DirecTV several months ago because I had an HD-Ready TV and at that time there wasn't even a HINT from Cox that they would be offering DTV any time soon. Some of their sales people thought they already DID! What Cox calls "digital cable" has NOTHING to do with "Digital Television" as defined by the ATSC (Advance Television Standards Committee, the folks who defined the U.S. Digital Television standard). It's not High Definition. It's not even 480p (480 line progresssive), which is what FOX is (incorrectly) calling Widescreen High Definition. 480p is considered Standard Definition. No, digital cable is just good old 480i NTSC, TRANSMITTED digitally. Digital cable is more-or-less what you get from DirecTV or Dish. THEY have nothing to do with DTV EITHER, except for the FEW High Definition channels they offer.

But to specifically answer your question, here are the pros and cons of each.

. The picture quality on all channels of DirecTV is better than my regular (analog) cable was. In fact, I still have Basic Cable and the worst looking channels by far are THE LOCAL STATIONS! I looked into digital cable and specifically asked whether I could expect better quality. The answer was "We have 200 channels". In other words, they are promoting CHOICE, not quality.

. I have an antenna in my attic for picking up the local DTV signals, but it doesn't do a great job with the existing analog channels 3, 10, and 12. If it did I would just drop cable TV completely. On ON roof antenna would probably do a great job. Antennas in attics are not good for picking up analog broadcasts, but I didn't have a lot of choice.

. With DSS you will need a box for every TV, and each extra box will cost you $5 per month. On the other hand, it's the same with digital cable, so there's really no advantage here either way. To receive HDTV, you will need to buy a ~$500 HD receiver for DSS. Cable will rent an HD cable box for probably around $10 per month.

. I HEARD somewhere that Cox was planning on rolling out HDTV service locally by the end of the year. For some reason I remember them saying it would be available to 10% of their existing digital cable subscibers by the end of the year, but I am unable to find where I heard or read this. That's 10% of something way less than their full customer case, and I simply have no clue how long it will be before any particular household might be able to get it, especially if you do not subscribe to digital cable now.

. Cox raised my cable bill TWICE this last month, once by $10 and AGAIN by $5 just two weeks later. They will argue that they didn't raise my cable bill by $10 but that they raised my Internet bill, but since they are no longer giving the $10 discount for Basic Cable subscribers, it's a little hard for me to make the distinction.

. On the other hand, DirecTV isn't cheap either. I don't think either has an advantage on price.

. There has been talk for a way long time about local channels being offered on DSS, but that's all it has been is talk, and even if and when they do, it will NOT be in High Def. The ONLY ways you will get local channels in HD is from an antenna or cable.

. There are currently only three HD channels on DirecTV, and two of those are "premium" (extra pay) channels HBO and Cinamax. Only HDNet is free. Dish offers Discovery in HD for an extra fee but does not offer HDNet. I don't know what happens if they merge, but I would HOPE it would mean some extrea capacity and the ability to start offering more HD channels, but I don't know that for a fact.


TODAY, the only choice for getting anything in HD is DirecTV or Dish. And what's there does look spectacular.

Picking up local DTV broadcasts SHOULD be easy for most people. There are no mountains or tall building to cause any problems.

When Cox starts offering DTV over cable, if YOU can get it, I think that will be the way to go. At that point DSS will offer no advantage over cable, asumming cable offers as many channels in HD, which they should.


Here is a link to the HDTV info on Cox' website. I haven't read every line but what I have read seems pretty fair without much of a "slant" or "spin".

HDTV information page from Cox (http://www.cox.com/Future/hdtv.asp)

David

Thanks for the info, Dave.

This is a subject I've been researching for a while, and as much as it pains me, I think I'll stay with COX in hopes that they will begin HDTV broadcasts at some point.

I've had the same experience as you with the Cox representatives. I say, 'When are you going to start offering HDTV?" The response is "We already do! We have over 200 channels!" Oh, man is that frustrating. You know, if I was a customer service representative, even if I wasn't being paid much, I make it a point to know what I was talking about, but hey, that's another story.

I tried 'Digital Cable' in hopes that the picture on my 53" widescreen would improve. I did a split screen comparison with straight analog on one side and the same channel out of the set top box on the other. They were exactly the same. Needless to say, I took the set top box back. (I kept the T-shirt from the self-install kit, though. :)

I've been pondering satellite and an antenna, or satellite and keeping Cox limited basic just for local channels. I've seriously considered building an HTPC to use as a decoder. I have enough parts laying around to build a really nice HTPC, I'd just have to pick up an ATSC decoder card for around $400.

In the end, with the limited availability of HDTV in our area right now, the return-on-investment just doesn't get me there yet.

Anyway, I guess Cox is testing the HDTV waters in Phoenix and D.C. as we speak. Maybe if that goes well they'll educate their folks in Wichita as to what HDTV actually is. :)

Thanks again. I'll keep checking back. Jay.

Jay,

An antenna capable of pulling in the local HDTV broadcasts is cheap. The chief engineer at WB (Warner Brothers) told me he could pick up their feed with RABBIT EARS.

Of course, as of this moment there are NO local broadcasts is HD. WB is purely upconverted NTSC and KAKE is still broadcasting color bars. However, within the next couple of months we should go from nothing to having SEVERAL channels available. WB is supposed to have some HD this fall, KAKE should be up any WEEK now, and UPN and FOX were expected to be broadcasting in October, although I have never talked to anyone at those stations directly.

In other words, "Cable or DSS" aren't the only options. Picking up the off-air broadcast signals is also an option.

Stay tuned. I promise to keep this thread updated with my experiences in picking up the local stations. I may even buy a second smaller antenna, just to see what I can get away with up here in NW Wichita.

David

From Dave Travert, General Manager at KAKE, in an email reply I received this morning.We expect to launch this Sunday evening, so you should be able to see the premier of Alias and The Practice in HDTV. He didn't say, but I would expect announcements this week on KAKE news and in the Wichita Eagle.

David

David,
That is great about KAKE. The ABC affilate in Topeka already applied for another extension. Now they are saying May or June of 2003. I will have my MyHD card tomorrow and hopefully my new antenna, the Televes DAT-75, which I have heard reports of everyday reception of 90 miles consistantly, by next week. Now I will try KAKE and the WB station there.

Is your WB still just send a 480i signal?? I am assuming KAKE is passing HD? Do you have any updates on KSNW, KSAS, or KSCC? Our CBS affilate will be up by the end of the week, so I will not worry them.

Thanks for the help,

tim

WB (KWCV) has been off the air since at least early last night.

I have seen nothing in the media about KAKE beginning DTV broadcasts. As of this moment they are still showing color bars.

I haven't heard anything new from KSNW, and don't really expect to since they have a new GM.

I have never heard anything from KSAS or KSCC, but I will try to find something since these two stations were reported to be next, along about mid October, according to an article in the Wichita Eagle back in early August.

David

KAKE's website reports that the will go live at 8:00 PM tonight. Give us a report.

KAKE-DT went live sometime before 8:00 and was ready to ROCK AND ROLL at 8:00. The intro and previews to Alias were in 4:3 and not in HD, so I thought it was going to be a bust, but the instant the show started, it was in glorious 16:9 HD. During the next two hours there were (only) a couple of 2 second glitches where the picture scrambled, then resolved into blocks, then back to a good signal, but other than that, both Alias and The Practice went without a hitch. I noticed no lip sync problems or problems with the sound. Excellent job KAKE.

I watched the first 10 minutes of the 10 o'clock news and while not in HD, the quality was a noticeable step up from their cable feed. I'd call the news "DVD quality" and that ain't bad.

They did pitch their new digital channel on the news, but it was a bit comical the way they did it. They showed a regular TV with a High Definition TV sitting on top of it, so viewers could see the difference... :)

Folks, High Definition is no longer a novelty. You no longer need a satellite dish to get it. It's here, today, and it looks fabulous. I look forward to more Wichita stations getting those transmitters installed, and passing along those 13-14 hours per week of High Definition offered by the networks.

David

HDTV info at KAKE.COM (http://www.kake.com/unclassified/121147.html)

I emailed Kathy Mohn, General Manager at KWCH, the Wichita CBS station, asking for an update on their schedule.

Thank you for your interest. KWCH TV will be up and running in High Definition by November 1st. The final stages of tower adjustment are being done as you read this. We here at the station share in your anticipation! So, stay tuned!I assume "tower adjustment" means their transmitter has been installed and they are adjusting it for maximum coverage. This would make sense since it was about a month after KAKE installed their transmitter that they went on the air. If true than I would expect to start seeing color bars on channel 19 in a week or two.

HDTV info at KWCH.COM (http://www.kwch.com/inside/hdtv.shtml)

Here is the list of shows on CBS in High Definition:

US Open
CSI
CSI: Miami
King of Queens
Yes, Dear
Everybody Loves Raymond
Still Standing
JAG
The Guardian
Judging Amy
Presidio Med
Without A Trace
Hack
Robbery Homicide Division
Touched by An Angel
The District
The Agency
Bram & Alice
Becker
The Young and The Restless

One other short note:

My analog reception is not that great since my antenna is in my attic, but the digital reception last night was perfect. That's one major benefit of digital.

David

Great report David. Glad to see KAKE up and live with good results.

Tim

David I have recently put up a UHF only antenna that I purchased from Radio Shack. I have put in on top my house with a 5ft mast and pointed it in the general direction of the towers in NW wichita. I cannot receive any DTV signals on my DTC-100. Should I take it back and get a VHF/UHF antenna. I am sure the bigger the better. I live in Park City and trying to troubleshoot. Let me know or I might give you a call tonight. Let me know what you think. Thanks.

Hessman,

You might try going into setup on you HD receiver to the signal strength section and selecting local channel 21, then assuming you get any signal at all, rotating the antenna for greatest signal strength.

Beyond that I would do some searches on this forum.

And I suppose the obvious course would be to contact the chief engineer at KAKE and ask for his advice. I don't have his name, so if you do contact him, please post his contact info here for others. You'd be helping him out too since he's going to be fielding a LOT of these kinds of questions!

David

Hessman,
Do you know for sure where the towers are? Most of the DTV staions will be UHF, so not really any need for a combo antenna.

You will need a compass, but here is a web site that will tell you in which direction each of the towers is located:

Antennaweb.org (http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/address.asp)

A side note, the table includes a column "Live Date" that lists "Now Live" for KAKE and KWCV (accuracy here lends credibility to their dates), and dates for five others

Nov 1 2002

KWCH-DT 19 CBS
KSAS-DT 26 FOX
KSCC-DT 35 UPN

Dec 1 2002

KSNW-DT 45 NBC

May 1 2003

KPTS-DT 29 PBS

The antenna type they recommend for me in NW Wichita is a "small multidirectional", which means I did not EVEN need to fuss with putting that 8' antenna in my attic. I could have gotten by with one of those dish mounted antennas.

The MAP button will show you a graphical picture of where the antennas are. If you need a directional antenna you will need to pick a compromise orientation where, hopefully, you will have adequate signal strength for all stations.

David

I don't know about y'all, but I find the information on antennas confusing as all hell. AntennaWeb.org seems like great information, and then I read other credible sources who claim CEA's digital antenna recommendations are "optimistic", that small multidirectional antennas rarely prove satisfactory, that one of the most expensive antennas is total crap, and so on.

Read these comments and lots more at the link below. The guy is up in Alaska somewhere, but the information is applicable anywhere.

About TV and FM Antennas (http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html)

What I'd like to come up with are recommendations for what works in various parts of Wichita, Southcentral Kansas, and even Northern Oklahoma, but it's just going to take time to accumulate that experience.

David

Lots of good info in this thread. I saw their "comparison" on the news. ;) We live in Wellington and I hope to get the new Samsung box shortly. Will keep everyone informed of what it takes to receive the stations being 35 miles south of Wichita. It is a good thing the shows my wife watches are mainly on ABC. Is there anywhere in Wichita that has a good HDTV demo? Sears?

TimG

Yes, in fact, Sears at Town West and possibly other stores, is as good a place as any to see HDTV in Wichita. Midwest TV & Appliance has one TV with a DISH feed. Last I looked, Best Buy and Circuit City (West Kellogg stores) had none. I don't know about the East side.

David

David,
Did you see the thread I posted about Cox HDTV in Kansas? I got an email from the VP of Cox Kansas and he said not in the plans this year, but *maybe* next year. I think it will be awhile before we get HDTV from Cox.

Well I finally got enough signal to get in channel 10-1. After adjusting my mast a few times and putting on a 10db inline amplifier I was able to pick up the signal at 82-88. I think I will try the 25db amp that they had at radio shack and see if that brings my signal up. I am going to try to lower my mast a bit it just sticks up there a bit too high. I also put in a rotater so if I need it will be easy to just turn the antenna. Well hopefully wb will get back on the air so I can check out the programming.

Hessman

Hessman,
Do you know why the WB is off? I tried calling Marty Heffner there but he was not in.

Timmy,

Thanks for the update on Cox. Their web site had said something to the nature that HD would be available to 10% of their digital cable customers by the end of this year. Now it says "Cox is planning to make HD service available to as many customers as possible as quickly as possible." So a VP said it MAY be available next YEAR, i.e. MAY be available by Dec 31, 2003? Not only am I glad I didn't wait, but I will no longer feel guilty in advising other people not to wait. If it's going to be another year, there is enough time to switch to DirecTV or Dish, fullfull their 1 year obligation, then switch back to cable whenever they get their sh*t together. Meanwhile their delays are of no concern.

Their web site still says their first generation of Set-top boxes will support only 1080i, not 720p. As a person with a native (and very expensive) 720p display device, 720p is a big deal to me.


WB has been off the air since at least Saturday evening. I keep meaning to call but haven't gotten around to it. An email I sent to programming@wbkansas.com got bounced - "User unknown". I got that address from clicking a link on their web site. :(


David

David,
Their website is pretty poor. Lots of broken links and such. I take it you have a plasma??

Try this email for the engineer at the WB station:
mheffner@wbkansas.com

He is the head engineer I believe. I called last night, but got voicemail. Well see if he gets back to me.

tim

well last night was a really good test to see if my antenna was going to blow off my roof...It is still there.. I still have problem during the day that mt HD signal on KAKE is just bouncing like there is no tomorrow. When I watched primetime last night and even through the storm there was just minor interuptions. I was not for sure if they are not broadcasting full signal during the day and only at night. Let me know if anybody has seen this too?

Hessman

Hessman,
I had planned on call them today to see what power they are broadcasting at, and if I find anything out, I will let you know.

tim

I just got off the phone with Marty Heffner from WB. He was telling me that he has got a new part in and should be replacing it today and getting WB back on the air. He was telling me that KAKE is broadcasting in low power mode. He told me that WB is just bout 3 times the power that KAKE is broadcasting. So that is probably why my signal is jumpy during the day. I have also called Dale Murrell from KAKE and left him a message asking the same question. So hopefully we will have WB tonight..

Hessman

This is the second time WB has had equipment problems which have kept them off the air for several days at a time. That's just the nature of the beast at this point and something we will have to live with.

Brian, thanks for giving Marty a call and posting the info. It saves me the trouble and saves Marty from asking the same question multiple times.

Tim, I have a DLP projector, 16:9 1280x720.

David

I just got an email from Marty basically saying the same thing. He told me it was a long shot to pick him up, but I am going to try anyway.

Too bad about KAKE at low power, I was hoping to get some ABC since my local topeka station will not be on untill next summer.

thanks guys!

WB is back on the air.

On an unrelated note, the Hughes HD receiver has a feature where you press the Select button on the remote and up pops a grid of 9 channels you can select. I have HDHet in the center of the grid so I can get to it by pressing Select Select. When I enter 21-1, it adds something like "Local Programming" to the on-screen "button", but if I plug in 10-1, it says KAKE-DT. The same goes for WB - 33-1 which says KWCV-DT. SO, the moral of the story is to use the "virtual" channel number rather than the real physical channel number.

David

I just got my HD200 yesterday. Temp. put an ant. in front of my house, about 18' high. Just tried it out and can get wb ok on 33.1 I get 10 and 12 great analog but get nothing on 21 for kake. I am 30 miles from wichita so maybe the low power won't make it here.

Still have to get my dish. I'm ready for HD!

John

is WB down again. I still cannot get it..

I found out what my problem with reception was that I put a inline pre-amp and it was creating a bunch of noise and disrupting the signal. I did get a chance to talk with Dale Murell or Morell and he was very helpful. He told me the channel master 4221 screen type of antenna has worked best in all thier field tests. So I got one on order and will probably take back my radio shack special. It was only $21 or so still keeping the price down. Well I will keep you all posted on the new antenna when I get it.

Hessman

OK...so I must have been smoking some crack.. I did a quick channel search again and it came up with WB.. So I have both up and running. I see that WB is digital but no HD. Do they only broadcast HD when specific movies are running.

Hessman

I believe WB upconverts everything to 1080i, but the only shows in HD are a few new fall shows such as Family Affair.

David

I just want to highlight something Brian reported, that according to a source at KAKE (?), presumably an engineer (?), the best type of antenna for all their Wichita field tests was a

Channel Master 4221 multi-bay antenna

According to the ChannelMaster web site this UHF-only antenna has a range of 45 miles. It's unfortunately not the most attractive antenna as seen here (http://www.channelmaster.com/layout_graphics/3021%20Antenna.jpg). On the bright side it's inexpensive at only $30 to $40 including shipping.

Channel Master 4221 (http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/u1.htm)

It may look ugly - but it WORKS, as compared to the TERK brand... Even in trees, but I did have to put a PreAmp.

(owner of a 3021 and a 3614)

Guys,
I happen to have gotten a phone call from David Morell at KAKE this past saturday. Here are some details he told me:

broadcasting at 87,000 watts or 87kW ERP
930 feet up the tower
tower is 1 mile east of Colwich or 9 miles NW of Wichita
if you look at 100000watts.com they say they have an app in for a higher power at 984 feet at 1000 kW ERP so whenever that is up and running (he didn't mention this) coverage should get tremendously better.

He also mentioned a guy notified him that he was getting reliable reception EAST of TOPEKA. So hope is not lost, as I will try.

Have fun guys!!!

Watch out Wicita:

I finally got my antenna up today for a bit. It is the $29 model at radio shack. I also got the 19 foot pole, a bucket, and a bag of concrete mix. I put the pole in, mixed the concrete, let it set, put the antenna on about 15 feet in the air. I could pull in most of the area Topeka stations, save the NBC which has a very large hill about 500 feet just west of my house between us. The I happen to do a scan with an old tv, this is all with no preamp or anything, and I pulled in analog Wichita stations KAKE and KWCV that were very watchable. I also pulled in the PBS and CBS out of Hutch. I consider this a great thing as it give me hope of pulling in the Wichita Digitals if I get a preamp and an antenna with better gain.

Well I got my Channel Master 4221 today. Put it up on the roof about 7 ft above my house and looked at signals and I am getting 85-90 on wb and still having the problem of jumpy signals on KAKE. I am not for sure if it is a problem with my antenna moving around since I have not installed my wires to totally secure the mast or what. I am getting about 15-20 better signal then the radio shack uhf only model. I will probably get another pre amp and see if this solves my problem. I had got a cheap pre amp from radio shack but found out that it put more noise in the line and actually causing more problems. Just remember that noise generated by a pre amp can kill the digital signal. David Morrell told me that the channel master 7777 or 7775 is a very good pre amp.. I will check it out or something very simailar and see if that fixes my problem with KAKE.

Hessman

Hessman,
I have heard also that the cannelmaster 7777 is about the best you can get. I looked all over for it and found it at http://www.starkelectronic.com/

for $61.79. How is the analog channels with the new chanelmaster antenna? Are you going to take the radio shack amp back? I got one also and it made most channels worse, except for the Wichita stations, which I cannot get in today. Must have been some Tropo going on.

tim

Well looks like channel 19 or 12-1 is broadcasting signal. AntennaWeb has updated saying "Testing". Just thought I would let everybody know there is one more HDTV signal here in Wichita. I will probably watch survivor and CSI if they are in HDTV. My signal has finally leveled out and getting 88-92 on KAKE (ABC) and KWCH (CBS) and 78-88 on KWCV (WB). Hopefully they will get FOX online here before the end of the month too.. Also I wanted to mention that the guide function on the CBS channel actually shows the programming unlike KAKE that just displays KAKE DT.

C.S.I. Looked sweet in 1080i tonight, yes Dorothy we are in Kansas now!
Two more to go and were in digital paradise, who needs COX anyway!

I don't need cox as I am going to just use my antenna since they raised my bill by $15 a month and I have no more channels and I did before.

Glad to see KWCH is live, anyone know an ERP for them?? I might try to get them if I cannot get Topeka.

Thanks Brian for the heads up. I tuned to 19-1 and got...NOTHING. I went into the setup menu and sure enough, there was a signal but only 15, not enough to pull in a picture. I put my wife downstairs in front of the TV with a two-way radio while I headed to the attic. l was able to get a steady signal of 51. Back downstairs to tune to 19-1 and SHAZAM, CSI in High Definition. I really did not expect that. I expected color bars.

Unlike ABC, I get NBC at channel 19-1 only, not 12-1. I can tune to ABC via 21-1 or 10-1. I'm not complaining, just "observating". This is a detail. I'm getting nothing in my channel guide for KAKE or KWCH but "Local programming". I don't know how DirecTV gets the channel guide info so this might not be the stations fault.

As soon as Fox and UPN come online, the bad old days of analog television are going to be in my rear view mirror. I just don't watch anything anymore if it's not on one of the digital channels.

David

I got my hd 200 and dish going today, so I put my antenna back on the front of my house and tried to get the locals again. CBS 12.1 is topping out on my signal and WB 33.1 is at the top of good. But I still cant get ABC.
I was going to put up a 50 foot tower, but think I will just do 30 foot. That should get me all the channels.

John

That's interesting because I get 100% on ABC over a pretty wide range of antenna direction but could get no better than 51% on CBS Thursday night. The good news for me was that retuning for CBS did not hurt ABC at all and it helped all of my analog reception to the point where I think I will just drop basic cable. :)

David

David,
KWCH come out of Hutch correct?

That is correct, KWCH comes out of Hutchinson.

Here are two good sources of information:
CEA AntennaWeb (http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/address.asp)

Wichita/Hutchinson TV Directory (http://100kwatts.tmi.net/tv/ICT.html)

A couple of minor notes while I'm here:

CEA (the first link) has been pretty accurate and on top of the status of the Wichita stations and they still list a "Live Date" for FOX and UPN as Nov 1, 2002. I have still not ever received a reply to any of my emails. Guess I should just CALL them huh? :)

I sent an email to Kathy Mohn, station manager at KWCH, congratulating her and the station engineers for getting KWCH-DT on the air. She replied in part "I will forward your kind message to our engineers. They have been working very hard for the past couple of years and really appreciate knowing that folks like you notice the difference!" Hint: It wouldn't hurt for any of you able to receive KWCH-DT on channel 19-1 to drop her a note so that she doesn't think I'm the ONLY one watching!!! :D

David

KSNW (NBC) web page states they are installing a new antenna in Colwich, does anyone know if they are making the switch to HDTV soon? Maybe the pressure of ABC & CBS going digital will "speed" things up! What call numbers will NBC and Fox be using?

CEA shows KSNW broadcasting a DTV signal Dec 1, which corresponds roughly to what Al Buch, former GM at the station, had been telliing me, which means they should be installing their transmitter now. It takes a month or so to get things "dialed in". For sure, them being the last local station to go digital has to sting their engineers a little. On the other hand, NBC offers (by far) the least amount of programming, so one can hardly blame them for not rushing to be first.

KSNW will be KSNW-DT, Fox will be KSAS-DT, UPN will be KSCC-DT.

KSNW will broadcast on physical channel 45, which will be "mapped" to 3-1.
KSAS will be channels 26 and 24-1 (18-1?)
KSCC will be channels 35 and 36-1

This information can be found at Wichita/Hutchinson TV Directory (http://100kwatts.tmi.net/tv/ICT.html)

David

I recieved an email this morning from Linda Madzey, Program Manager FOX Kansas / UPN Kansas:

"We should begin broadcasting by Thursday. Programming may or may not be on by then. Programming should be on by the 5th or 6th"

David

Fox is on tonight. I didn't find it at first because I was expecting to find it at channel 18-1, but I scanned through the channels looking for digital signals and found a signal on channel 26, so I plugged in 26-1 and sure enough, there it was. Not HD (obviously) but at least digital.

I was not able to find UPN, which I expected to come on simultaneously with Fox.

David

Any new news for Wichita??

I noticed my tuner shows a signal and call sign ksas at 24-1 but never a picture. Fox shows up as 26-2 with picture??? Is there a channel at 24-1 or is the tuner picking up fox on two frequencies?

KSAS-DT is channel 26, but will be found at 24-1 (18-1?)
KAKE-DT is channel 21, but is 10-1
KWCH-DT is channel 19, but is 12-1

The first is the physical channel, the second is a "virtual channel". It's a bit confusing.

Timmy, nothing new as far as I know, but I haven't been keeping up too well the last couple of weeks. KSNW (channel 3) and UPN (channel 36) were scheduled for Dec 1 the last I checked. KAKE (10) and KWCH (12) have been up for awhile now, as has WB (33).

Really, when you step back from it, in another couple of weeks, we will have access to more DTV channels than a lot of people in larger markets, because we are blessed with flat terrain, few trees, and even fewer tall buildings to interfere with the signal. :-)

David

I spoke to an engineer at Fox the other day. He said UPN should be up next month, so I guess they're more or less on schedule.

I've had some odd problems tuning Fox with my Samsung TS160. For a while it would sync on 24-1, but now it only sync's on 26-1 for some reason. I don't think they're broadcasting full/proper PSIP data which could be part of the problem. The person I talked to said they were working on fixing this.

Does anyone know what happened to WB?? 33-1 has been dead (for me at least) since Sunday.

Dave G.

WB has been off the air for extended periods on more than one occassion. I think the others have been up and down also, which is frustrating for people trying to tune in these stations, since they don't KNOW they are off the air. One assumes the antenna needs adjusting, so you adjust and adjust and dogone it, you just can't seem to pick up that channel! We're not quite at critical mass yet where everyone buying an HD receiver knows someone who already has one, and can call them to find out who's on and who isn't.

David

For anyone that is interested, I got this reply from WB. I must say that both Fox and WB were great in responding to my inquiries. I got this note back within an hour.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Thank you for your viewing interest in our digital broadcast. But, I must
apologize for our inconsistency of our signal.


My encoder went belly up last week and I have been on the phone today
finding out how come the replacement encoder did not arrive this morning as I was told it would. As soon as I receive the encoder I will have the
digital back up and running.

Martin Heffner
Director of Engineering
and Operations
KWCV-WB33
200 W. Douglas
7th floor
Wichita, Kansas 67202
www.wbkansas.com
mheffner@wbkansas.com

A friend of mine here in town tells me NBC is up (3-1). I can't seem to get it here though. :(

Anyone else able to get NBC?

Dave G.

I did manage to tune NBC (3-1, or Ch.45) today be repositioning my antenna. Looks like they're up and running, although signal strength is low, similar to CBS.

Dave G.

I can confirm that NBC is up. I was confused for awhile because I saw a signal on channel 45 but when I tuned to channel 45 I got Disney. I had to tune to 3-1.

David


[Edit]I should have tuned to 45-1. The digital stations are all -1

Of the local stations, the only one for which channel guide information is available from DirecTV is UPN, which isn't even on the air yet.

In my DirecTV channel guide, only KAKE and KWCH display their call letters. All the others just say "Local".

Fox shows in the channel guide as 18-1, but there is no signal on that channel. The banner says KSASDT, but there's no signal. Tuning to 24-1 says "no signal". I have to tune to 26-1 to get Fox.

David

I live in El Dorado and just got my tower up. I have an Sony HD200 Direct rec., a Radio Shack VU-90XR antenna, and a Channel Master 7778 preamp. The antenna is mounted 35 foot up a tower.
As of this morning I was receiving=

Channel call letters
3 KSNW
3 KSWK
3.1 KSN
8 KPTS
8 KSNK
10 KAKE
10 KBSL
10.1 KAKE
12 KWCH
12.1 KWCH
18.1 NO SIGNAL
24 KSAS FOX
26.1 FOX
33 KWCU WB
36 UPN
36.1 NO SIGNAL
UPN
All the digital signals are mid to high good.
Two weeks ago I was getting 33.1, WB, but now I get no signal.
Also kinda wierd that I get double channels on 3, 8, and 10 , tho I get the same programs on both channels.

John

David,
Directv may be mistaking KAAS for you KSAS. KAAS in Salina is channel 18. I bet that is what is going on.

Does anyone know where the guide information comes from for the local stations? I sent some emails last night to station managers asking if they were sending channel guide information to DirecTV and one response said they don't send anything to DirecTV because DirecTV doesn't carry their signal. Hmmm, OK. Then where does DirecTV GET the guide information?

David

Got a note from Will Wilson at KSCC, the UPN affiliate: "KSCC is in the works as we speak and should be on the air in the next few weeks."

Also got a note from Marty Heffner at WB. He says their encoder went "belly up" about two weeks ago and then the multiplexer "decided it would roll over and die."

David

I got this from Dave Rickels at KSN. So if others are seeing low signal strength on 3-1, this is probably the cause.

Dave G.

-------------------------------------------

KSN is operating on channel 45 DTV or in PISIP 3.1.
Our transmitter in only 1000 watts at this time. We plan to have a full
power transmitter operational by this spring. This should cure your problem.
dr

I sent emails to several of the station managers about when my DirecTV HD receiver might start showing program guide information for their digital channel. Here is the reply I got from Dave Trabert, general manager at KAKE:

"Our system does not permit us to send that information the way we do with our analog signal. At some point in the future we will add this feature but probably not for a year or more."

That is unfortunate.

David

As I mentioned before, my Hughes reciever is showing KSAS-DT as channel 18-1 rather than the expected 24-1. I think they are sending the wrong channel information in their PSIP, but I also have to admit I'm not that knowledgeable about this stuff yet.

So I have a question for anyone in the Wichita area: What brand of HD receiver do you have and do you get KSAS-DT on 18-1 or 24-1?
26-1 should work for everyone since that's the "real" channel.

David

I have a Zenith HDV420 and get the following:
FOX: 26-1
NBC: 3-1
ABC: 10-1
CBS: 12-1

I've had this receiver for a few days, and it seems to do an good job of pulling in the signals.

My antenna is suspended from the rafters in my garage, so it is only about 8 feet off the ground. Still, my signal strengths are all between NORMAL and GOOD (GOOD is the highest on this tuner). I'm near 13th and Maize, so not too far from the towers. I plan to move the antenna up to the roof, but it's working well for now.

Now, we just need more sports in HDTV!

Wow! My first HDTV program with my antenna installed, and it was truly amazing...even my wife's jaw dropped when she saw it. This definitely scored points with her, considering all the $ I've spent!

KWCH has the weakest signal of the locals for me, so I'm a very happy camper...

I have the Samsung TS-160. Since I live in an apartment, I'm using the RS double bowtie UHF antenna. I get all of the stations, although signal strength is low on CBS (12-1) and NBC (3-1).

I think the Samsung must do a good job of pulling in weak signals considering I'm using an indoor antenna on the east side of Wichita in an apartment which is surrounded by other 2 story buildings. The Samsung is quirky and has some bugs as others have been reporting in the Hardware forum. Although it does work and produces a great HD picture.

I get the following channels:

NBC: 3-1
ABC: 10-1
CBS: 12-1
FOX: 26-1 (I used to get 24-1, but it quit working)
WB: 33-1 (they're currently not broadcasting)

FOX is not broadcasting proper PSIP data. Their station engineer told me this back a while ago. He said they were working to fix the problem.

Dave G.

Dave,

You have confirmed a couple of very important things for anyone reading this thread:
1) ANYone in the Wichita area should be able to receive all local DTV broadcasts. If you can pick them up with a Radio Shack bowtie, on the East side of town, in an apartment surrounded by other buildings, that's pretty much the worst possible scenario I'd say.
2) The reason KAAS-DT cannot be tuned in as 24-1 is because of something the station is doing wrong, not because of anything DirecTV or Hughes or anyone else is doing.

David

I know it sounds a little absurd, but one thing to keep in mind is that the RS Double Bowtie is very good. Not just any indoor antenna will work. I have another RS outdoor antenna (#15-1847) which I put on the side of the deck above my patio. I couldn't get CBS at all with it and had sporadic problems with the other stations.

Why? Because multipath seems to be the enemy of digital TV reception. I had noticable ghosting on the normal analog channels with the outdoor antenna. That style of antenna is multidirectional and more prone to multipath problems.

Since all of the towers are in the same general direction from people living in Wichita, a good semi-directional antenna is probably the best choice. Most traditional style antennas fall into this category.

The other very good indoor antenna is the Zenith Silver Sensor (actually made by another company). Sears and Circuit City carry it for $40. The RS Double Bowtie is discontinued, I just got lucky and found one (for $5). Eventually I may try a Silver Sensor to see if I can improve signal strength on CBS and NBC. CBS was cutting out the other day when it was snowing. :(

Anyway, FWIW, these are my non-expert opinions/observations.

Dave G.

My father is thinking about getting HDTV. He lives just outside Goddard (circa 15 miles west of Wichita on Hiway 54) and has a uhf/vhf dual radio shack antenna in the attic with rg-59 down to basement and no line amp. No idea model of antenna but it was $40 or so 10 years ago at Radio Shack. Prognosis for receiving all avalable channels WITHOUT installing a rotator? Thinking of going with Samsung TS-160 for tuner.

Go here and see what is recommended:

http://www.antennaweb.org

He should be fairly close to all of the towers, so it may not be a problem. Does he get all of the analog channels clearly now? If so, then he'll probably be fine. The thing to remember is that the digital stations are still broadcast on standard UHF channels. So, if one works well, the other probably will also.

Now,whether to get the TS-160 or not is a better question. My advice is to wait until the firmware upgrade comes down in the next few weeks. We'll see how many problems they solve (or create). If you don't care about DVI, the Hughes E86 is a good choice and is $100 cheaper. Otherwise, the Zenith/Sony units, but they're $100-$200 more expensive. The TS-160 can't be beat for features, but it does have some problems. Some say the other units have they're own unique set of problems, so who knows.

One thing is for sure, there is no problem free HD receiver right now. They all have some problems. The technology is still fairly new. They all work, but you just need to face the fact that none of them will be perfect.

Dave G.

Jeremyaz, since the digital transmitters are on the same towers as the analog transmitters, if you have the antenna pointed so as to get the best reception from the analog channels, and you get all the local analog stations clearly, then you should be good to go for the digital channels. You should not need a rotor.

David

A very minor update. KSAS seems to have gotten things straight with their signal, so that now when I tune to channel 26, the station number is translated to 24-1.

WB is still black. I'll sent Marty Heffner an email and see if I can find out what's going on.

David

FYI, WB is still off the air. I got an email from Marty Heffner today
We seem to be running into a rash of problems. I have the manufacture in town working on the transmitter. This has been quite a learning experience.

Thanks for your patience.

Watched NBC 3-1 tonight at full strength, but notice that FOX tunes in at 24-2 but call letters without picture also appear as 24-1??? Anyone else picking up Fox as 24-2 ?? Picture and sound is fine but a hassle to "skip" past 24-1 to receive 24-2!

Originally posted by gmanhdtv
Watched NBC 3-1 tonight at full strength, but notice that FOX tunes in at 24-2 but call letters without picture also appear as 24-1??? Anyone else picking up Fox as 24-2 ?? Picture and sound is fine but a hassle to "skip" past 24-1 to receive 24-2! I get "no signal" on 24-2. I am getting KSAS-DT on 24-1. I have a Hughes E86 receiver, with cable and an OTA antenna. Be sure and come back to give us an explanation if you find out why that's happening.

David

Originally posted by gmanhdtv
Watched NBC 3-1 tonight at full strength, but notice that FOX tunes in at 24-2 but call letters without picture also appear as 24-1??? Anyone else picking up Fox as 24-2 ?? Picture and sound is fine but a hassle to "skip" past 24-1 to receive 24-2!

I have a Samsung TS-160 and get Fox on 24-1 also. No signal on 24-2. I'm not sure why your getting them on 24-2. Can you remove 24-1 from the program guide using some sort of custom channel guide?

Also, in regards to the TS-160, a firmware upgrade is now being transmitted by DirecTV. This upgrade fixes a lot of the problems people have been seeing. I had stated before the TS-160 has some problems, but with the upgrade, I'd say it's a good choice if someone is shopping for a HD receiver.

Dave G.

The simultaneous output of HD and SD is the biggest draw to the TS-160. This allows you to watch programs in High Definition and record them on a Tivo or ReplayTV, albeit in Standard Definition. With most other HD tuners you have to manually switch the output, which is not only a pain, but if you forget, you record a blue screen.

David

David,
I exchanged email with a fellow from Cox Kansas and I asked for an update on HDTV through Cox. The reason I ask is because where I live, I do not get either of the topeka stations OTA. He said that they were waiting on a cheaper Motorola box to come out. He said they have no reason to not want to offer this service, but they could not recoop the cost of the tuner box yet. He sounded like they really want to do it, but cannot justify the tuner cost.

tim


BTW: If there are any Royals fans in Wichita, please call Cox and tell them you want them to pickup the Royals Television Network or we will get NO games on TV this year!!!

Although FOX has no programming in HDTV, they do offer 1 or 2 NFL games each week in 480p widescreen. I have yet to see one of these games passed through in this format by KSAS. Today's NYG vs. IND game is an example. In another forum, there are comments that it is in 16:9 format. Not the case here in Wichita.

Are they incapable or simply choosing not to do so?

I suspect they just don't know any better, like the issue they had with including the wrong channel number in their broakcast signal, so that it showed up as their Salina affiliate's number 18-1. I will send an email to my contact there and I suggest you do too, along with anyone else who watches football games on KSAS-DT. There is no reason I can think of to broadcast a DTV signal in 4:3.

David

David,

Thanks for the info. I'll send KSAS an e-mail. Maybe they can figure it out in time for the playoffs...

Mike

I got a reply from KSAS's engineer, and they are waiting on some additional equipment which will allow them to pass on FOX's widescreen broadcast. Sounds like it might be a corporate budgeting decision. Anyway, it probably won't be until after the NFL playoffs... :(

While I'm on this topic, does anyone else get a lot of pixelization during NFL games on KSAS's digital channel? Their signal strength is excellent at my location, almost topping out the meter. But these games are unwatchable in their current state. I haven't noticed pixelization on other FOX programming--just NFL. Since I don't really watch any FOX programs, I can only comment on what I've seen when surfing through the channels on my HDTV tuner. Upconvert issue? Perhaps this is related to the equipment they are waiting on??

Oh well, thankfully CBS is doing the AFL divisional and championship games in HD...then ABC has the superbowl!

Mike

I setup a guy yesterday and was getting the KAAS channel 17 out of Salina and there was a pulsing line that moved up the picture. Very odd. I only watched The Caroline Rhea show, so I cant comment on football.

Anyone else notice the lines??

Tom Gateway, station manager of UPN-KANSAS says KSCC-DT could be on the air as soon as today. I'm not going to "hold him to it" since UPN has no HD material at this time, but it will still be nice to have the digital broadcast. Even NTSC looks at least a little better in digital due to the lack of noise, ghosts, etc.

KSCC-DT will be found at first on physical channel 35. After that, if they have things configured correctly, you should be able to tune to either 35 or 36-1.

David

I live in El Dorado and have been getting drop outs from Wichita channel 19. They only last 1-2 seconds, at the most 4-6 seconds. I have a good signal and the 19 icon in the corner stays on, just lose picture and sound. Is anyone else haveing this happen?

John

Originally posted by tworow
I live in El Dorado and have been getting drop outs from Wichita channel 19. They only last 1-2 seconds, at the most 4-6 seconds. I have a good signal and the 19 icon in the corner stays on, just lose picture and sound. Is anyone else haveing this happen?

John

I was getting the same thing on Monday--haven't watched anything since then to know if it's still happening. I also can confirm that the 19 icon was still on the screen. My signal for KWCH is very good, as well.

I hope this doesn't occur during the AFC playoff games...I have people coming over to see this wonderful new technology!

Mike

KWCV-DT (WB) is back up.

I'm still not finding KSCC-DT (UPN) but maybe I'm looking for it in the wrong place too. They had told me they might be up as soon as last Friday. Guess I'll send another email and see if I can get an update on their status.

David

Originally posted by gmanhdtv
Watched NBC 3-1 tonight at full strength, but notice that FOX tunes in at 24-2 but call letters without picture also appear as 24-1??? Anyone else picking up Fox as 24-2 ?? Picture and sound is fine but a hassle to "skip" past 24-1 to receive 24-2! I am picking up FOX today as 26-1 and 26-2. They seem to be messing around with their PSIP.

David

I watched Mayberry RFD this morning. :-)

I pointed out to Tom Gateway, station manager of KSCC that KSCC-DT is showing up as 35-1 rather than 36-1
I hesitate to say anything on this momentous occasion, but KSCC-DT is showing up as 35-1, which is the physical channel, rather than 36-1 which is where it "logically" should be showing up. No big deal, just mentioning it. Tom repliedit should be 35...we will drop 36 when 80% of country has digital. Here is my reply:Tom,

KSNW is digital channel 45, analog channel 3, and shows up on my HD receiver as 3-1
KAKE is digital channel 21, analog channel 10, and shows up on my HD receiver as 10-1
KWCH is digital channel 19, analog channel 12, and shows up on my HD receiver as 12-1
KWCV is digital channel 31, analog channel 33, and shows up on my HD receiver as 33-1

The physical digital channels are being "mapped" to the analog channel number. Note, the DTV channels can be tuned as EITHER their analog number with a "-1" OR as their physical channel. The digital channels show up next to the analog channels in my channel guide.

KSAS is digital channel 26, analog channel 24, and shows up on my HD receiver as 26-1
KSCC is digital channel 35, analog channel 36, and shows up on my HD receiver as 35-1

FOX and UPN are not mapping the digital channels to the analog channel numbers.

Mapping the physical digital channel to the analog channel is a convenience to consumers. Stations also tend to be known as much or more by their channel number than by their network affiliation or station call letters, so it helps them retain their "identity". Are you going to change your signature line to "UPN Kansas (KSCC) Ch. 6/35/36"? :-)

David

At the moment, I'm getting all 6 digital stations on their appropiate re-mapped channels including KSAS (24-1) and KSCC (36-1). Either they've fixed the PSIP data or it's a difference between HD receivers.

Just as a data point. As I've stated before in this thread, I'm using a Samsung TS-160 and a simple Radio Shack indoor double bowtie antenna on the east side of Wichita to get all 6 channels. I do have some trouble tuning NBC and CBS due to weaker signals from those stations. I can get either of them reliably, but sometimes I can't get them both with the same antenna position.

Also, there was some discussion about the TS-160's problems. Since the firmware upgrade a few weeks ago, it has been much more reliable. It still has a couple of little quirks, but I do recommend it now.

Dave G.

I received the following email yesterday from John Cyphers, station engineer for KSAS and KSCC, after telling them about the incorrect channel numbers. It confirms and explains the issues we have observed. The reference in the first paragraph to Salina is in regard to at one time KSAS-DT showing up in my channel guide as 18-1, which is the channel number for the Salina station. One yet unanswered question is why KSAS is showing up with TWO subchannels, but I haven't gotten an answer to that yet.
This was one of several things under debate, and we had researched it with one of our equipment manufacturers, who incorrectly said it should be our digital channel designation. The Salina channel being involved was because the manufacturer sent the equipment preprogrammed, but had our call letters backwards thinking KAAS was our main channel. So the first part of learning the equipment was changing the call letters.

So after checking with the manufacturer again, they agreed with you that the Major channel # goes with the analog transmitter for marketing purposes. Doesn't make sense engineering wise because channels used to match with certain frequencies, and by every station claiming a different frequency matches a different channel, it throws the whole frequency chart out of whack. i.e. - channel 3 used to have a lower frequency related to it than channel 10 (follows common sense 3<10) but now channel 10 (DT 21) has a lower frequency than channel 3 (DT 45). So a channel 10 in Wichita, won't have the same broadcast frequency as a channel 10 in San Antonio.

As soon as I got off the phone, I changed the major numbers in our PSIP, so you should receive Fox on 24-1, and UPN on 36-1. On our equipment we punch in the actual channel #'s 26 and 35, so we never noticed this problem.I would like to thank Tom Gateway (Gdisis) and Jon Cyphers for their great attitude and responsiveness in getting these issues fixed so quickly.

David

That's fantastic! They have been very helpful. It's great to have such good support from our local stations. I think Wichita is ahead of many major metropolitan areas in regards to digital OTA programming.

Dave G.

Originally posted by talon95
I think Wichita is ahead of many major metropolitan areas in regards to digital OTA programming.

Dave G. Actually Dave, I wonder how many areas in the whole USA can receive SIX networks with a $25 antenna with no exotic placement, rotors, signal amps, or other "trickery". My brother lives in the south Bay, in the foothills, with line-of-site to San Francisco and San Jose, and yet he can't seem to pick up six stations. "Mark's Monday Memo" talks about the problems around New York, where a receiver in a tower with line of sight to the Empire State Building cannot pick up stations broadcasting from there. Now I'm curious. Where to find such information?

The upshot is that although all but one of our local stations missed their initial FCC "deadline" for broadcasting in digital, and although it has seemingly taken forever to get to this point, Wichita is now literally at the forefront in adopting this new technology. Unfortunately I must now ask the rhetorical question: How many homes in Wichita are equiped to RECEIVE this cornucupia of digital wonder? Another rhetorical question: How many retailers are showing an OTA signal on their HD and HD-Ready TV's? How do we now "take this technology to the masses?"

David

Relating to my previous post, I sent the following email to Mark Schubin, author of Mark's Monday Memo (http://www.digitaltelevision.com/mondaymemo/mlist/)Mark,

Residents of humble Wichita Kansas are now able receive SIX networks OTA in digital: ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, UPN, WB.

What's more, we can do this with a simple antenna, with no towers, rotors, or other "trickery". Install a $50 Radio Shack antenna in the attic or other easily accessible place, point it for maximum signal, and fugettaboutit. How common is this? I mean, I read all the time about the problems you yourself have with reception, and anecdotal evidence from all around the country, from New York to San Francisco, so might Wichita even be "unique" in this regard?

David HaysHere is Mark's reply. Note, the bold-face text is mine.Not at all unique. I just got a message from someone 25 miles outside of Chicago who gets 13 stations, which is three more than Linx even attempted (and five more than they reliably received).

I would say a majority of people have little or no trouble receiving DTT. The problem is no one knows whether that majority is 51% or 99%. If 51%, then about 140 million people have problems. If 99%, it's only 3 million.

FYI, I live in Manhattan, in a 16-story building surrounded by other tall buildings. But I'm only two miles from the Empire State Building and get very good analog off-air reception.

TTFN,
MarkI believe DTT stands for Digital Terrestrial Transmission, but that's just an educated guess.

Linx must be some kind of test that was conducted, maybe by, or on behalf of, the FCC? Again, this is just a guess. I'm too lazy at the moment to do a search. If I did I'd be reading for the rest of the afternoon. :)

David

The following is a link to a press release from the CEA (Consumer Electronics Association) about an agreement reached between consumer electronics companies and the cable industry to provide cable-ready HDTV's:

Cable and Consumer Electronics Companies Reach Key Agreement on Digital TV Transition Issues (http://www.ce.org/press_room/press_release_detail.asp?id=10134)

DTT stands for Digital Terrestrial Television.


Linx is LINX Electronics Inc. designs, develops, patents, and markets products and services to the digital television (DTV) market. Using proprietary technologies, LINX is designing and developing complex integrated circuits and systems that allow optimal DTV signal reception, highly integrated HDTV video decoding, and efficient datacasting.David

I'm getting occasional pixelization on UPN. I'm showing plenty of signal, 70-80. Is anyone else seeing this problem?

Dave G.

Whenever I try to watch a HD movie on KAKE, lip synch is a problem. Sound of Music was slightly off, for example, but tonight's The Rock is far enough out of synch that it is not worth watching. KAKE is the only digital station on which I have this problem. CBS's HD shows are perfectly synched, as are NBC's. Anyone else seeing this?

I'll have to check out some of ABC's other HD programming to see if the lip synch problem is there, too. Fortunately, the few HD shows I do like to watch are on CBS and NBC.

I am using a Zenith HDV420 tuner, with component connection to a Pioneer RPTV. My Pioneer is not capable of showing 720p, so I have my tuner set to output at 1080i (the tuner upconverts the 720p). Audio is optical out to a Kenwood receiver. Anyway, could be an upconvert issue with the Zenith, I suppose.

It's fine right now for me. I've had problems like that though. Usually changing channels fixes it or maybe rebooting the receiver. I don't think it's KAKE, at least not this time.

Dave G.

I watched The Rock tonight on KAKE-DT and didn't notice any lip-sync problem. That's weird.

David

Is anyone getting sound on KWCV-DT (WB 33-1)? I sent an email to station engineer Marty Heffner and he said he's not showing any problem on his equipment. I get a very low level of sound on my Hughes E86 STB. I can get sound, but I have to turn the volume way up, and then remember to back it down before changing channels or I get blasted. Like the lip sync problem with The Rock reported above, this may be some issue with my setup (although it's odd that it effects both of my HD receivers), so I'd like to know if anyone is experiencing this problem, or NOT experiencing this problem.

UPN (36-1) is having a problem with "vertical interval", which shows as a band of black-and-white "hyroglyphics" at the top of the screen. Station engineer Jon Cyphers is "working on it".

OT, I watched the AFC championship game in HD on Sunday. Now THAT'S the way football is supposed to be watched. Not all of the cameras were HD, so some shots had black bars on the side, and the view from the blimp looked AWFUL, but all-in-all, I'm not complaining. They did a very nice job, and I look forward to watching the Super Bowl in HD.

David

I've been able to get sound for WB, but a couple of times I had to flip back and forth between channels before the sound would sync. So, I'd say I've had problems, just not as severe. Right now as I type this it's working fine though.

UPN is pretty screwed up for me. I get the black bars with moving dots and I also get a lot of break up/pixelization most of the time.

The AFC game was great. OTOH, the NFC game on Fox was terrible. In high motion scenes I was getting severe pixelization. It looked like a low bitrate video clip on my PC. :( A friend of mine was having the same problem. He has a Mits receiver.

Dave G.

Oops, I partly mis-read your post Dave. I should have stated that yes I do get full volume sound on WB, although sometimes I have trouble getting it to sync. I did notice my receiver was showing DD2.1 instead of PCM. I'm not sure if they've always broadcasted DD2.1. If not, then that could have something to do with it not working for you now.

Dave G.

I really envy you guys down there in Wichita. It's not that far, but far enough for me to not be able to get any signals from there. Up here, there are three digitals, CBS, NBC, and FOX, but I cannot get any because of the hills. O well.


Good work!

I got an email this morning from Jon Cyphers, engineer at Fox and UPN. This is a portion of it:My equipment wasn't showing the wrap around yesterday, so I went through a rebooting process, and it showed up. I was then able to adjust the Vertical interval out of the image. I also emailed my contact about your subchannel problem, and you are the only one with that problem that I have heard of.
I can confirm that this "wrapparound" problem I was seeing on FOX this weekend is gone.
I told Jon to forget I ever mentioned the subchannel thing...UNLESS and until someone else reports it with a different HD receiver. The issue is that I am seeing TWO subchannels on FOX, 24-1 and 24-2. This is not a problem, it's merely something I have observed. If anyone else sees a second subchannel on 24 (DTT physical channel 26), please report in, along with the make and model of your HD receiver.

David

The "vertical interval" problem is gone, although I'm still seeing pixelization on FOX and UPN. On FOX, it's a general effect over the entire image in high bit rate scenes (motion or transitions). UPN is a little more random and occurs locally around moving objects, but also in scene transitions.

Dave G.

I reported the issues a few of you have reported regarding pixelization on FOX and UPN to Jon Cyphers, station engineer. Here is the portion of his replay pertaining to this issue:I am concerned about the pixelization, football is pretty much over for us, but NASCAR starts soon, and we have other programming that has a lot of movement.
My question to those viewers is what kind of antenna setup do they have?

MPEG2 compression (what DTV signals are coded as) basically works by not repeating parts of the image that are stationary (such as backgrounds) that's why pixelization usually happens around moving parts of the image first, the backgrounds are still in memory.

I want to eliminate low signal or signal dropouts as possibilities for this problem, that's why I'm wondering about antennas. I'm focusing on our upconverter for now, because it's the only thing I can come up with that would be able to cause pixelization. I wonder about the claim of pixelization on UPN, since it is not upconverted, just simply 480i digital. Once we have receivers at home (coming soon) we will be able to diagnose things a lot quicker.

I will keep you up to date with what we find.

Thanks for your help!

jonI have not personally noticed any pixelization, but I haven't watched any football games on FOX. I am in NW Wichita with a large antenna, so my signal strength is excellent. Pixelization could be caused by a marginal signal. It may also be that the pixeliation is there and I just haven't noticed it because I haven't watched the kinds of programming that would show it.

David

I thought about that. As everyone knows, I have a simple indoor antenna. I've looked at signal strength for those stations though. For FOX, it is always in the 90-100 range and UPN is 70-80. I do not believe this is a reception problem.

Also, as I reported before, when I was watching the game on Sunday I called a friend on the West side of town that has an outdoor roof mounted antenna. He was seeing the same thing.

You don't see this all the time on Fox or UPN. Only in high bitrate motion scenes. If Jon wants to seriously investigate this, I might be able to make a short .mpg clip that could be emailed or put on a cd for him to view.

Dave G.

Please pass the word on to your DTV group :

Went to Hephner's yesterday, saw the problems there, and took a receiver home and saw them last night.

Fox has to be punched in as 26-2 then shows up as 24-1 once it comes up. Something in my PSIP is corrupted. Every other time at Hephner's you could punch in 24-1 directly, I couldn't do that at home.
The basketball game last night on UPN was freezing pretty bad, I think there's an error on our encoder.
I saw a little bit of pixelization during commercials last night on Fox, American Idol didn't have enough movement to cause the problem. But I'll be watching it like a hawk now.

Our professional receiver doesn't show any of this, it must have a lot stronger error corrector in it.
I have an outdoor antenna at home (I'm in the SE part of town), and my signal meter was pegged on FOX, almost that good on UPN, so I don't think this is a signal or antenna issue.

I will be working on this until I get it fixed, during the day I might be interrupting the signal quite often, every change to the system causes it to go to black.

Thanks for your patience and help, I wanted to fill you in, so you guys can stop screwing with your equipment, I can finally see the problems. It's hard to fix what you can't see.

On a separate note, I highly recommend Greg Hephner at Hephner's TV as the Wichita resource, he had the local signals viewable on different tuners, and had great prices, he was tremendous help to us.

jon
Jon Cyphers
Engineer
FOXKansas and UPNKansas
(KSAS-TV, KSAS-DT, KAAS-TV, KAAS-DT, KBDK-TV, KSAS-LP, KAAS-LP, KSCC-TV, KSCC-DT)
Wichita, KS
jcyphers@clearchannel.com
Voice 316-942-2424
Fax 316-942-8927
www.foxkansas.com www.upnkansas.com

Hey Guys,
Is anybody getting any sound or picture from ABC digital in the last couple of days? Last night my signal was pegged between 95 and 100 on my DTC-100 and all I get on the channel is black with no sound. Are they having some issues? I am getting the same thing today. Plenty of signal just no picture or sound. I hope they get this figured out before Sunday.


Thanks
Kevin C. :)

Sounds like we're in good hands with Fox and UPN. I'm sure Jon will get it fixed soon. Also, thanks for keeping us posted David.

As far as ABC, as of right now I am getting picture and sound on ABC (10-1). No problems that I can see.

Dave G.

I did a re-search for channels and now I am getting a picture and sound.
I don't know why I had to do that?

Kevin C. :)

At least some of the receivers save information from the PSIP data that is broadcast by the stations. You can have problems when the station changes what is being sent which then doesn't match what the receiver saved when you first tuned to the channel. I'm guessing something like that happened to you. By re-scanning, your receiver cleared whatever was saved.

Dave G.

Originally posted by Kevin Coleman
I did a re-search for channels and now I am getting a picture and sound.
I don't know why I had to do that?

Kevin C. :) Because!

Seriously, so much of this is voodoo. Jon told me he wasn't seeing a particular problem that I reported, but then he rebooted his Sencor and then he DID see the problem, so was then able to fix it. He wasn't seeing the pixelization issues reported here (which I forwarded to him), so he went to Heffners and bought or borrowed an HD receiver so that he could see what we were seeing. He did see it, so now he's working on the problem.

I'm a little frustrated with Marty Heffner. The only email I have received from him about my sound problem with WB isI don't know what to say, I have audio here at the office. The only thing I can think of at the moment is to rescan the channels.When he says he has audio, I'm guessing that's with his umpteen thousand dollar Sencor decoder. Three out of three people who have responded to my query about sound on WB have said they have some problem, although none to the extent I am. There IS an issue with sound on WB, but Marty seems to have his head in the sand and (apparently) isn't even trying to find out what the problem is. I for one can't imagine what *I* could be doing wrong on my end. I get sound on the other five local DTT channels just fine. I experience the same problem on two disparate receivers, one a consumer set-top box, and the other an HD card in my PC. The only thing they have in common is the antenna. How in the heck could my antenna cause me not to get sound on ONE out of six channels? If there was actually anything ON WB to watch, I'd be (even more) upset about it. [Rant Mode Off :)]

David

Yea, it really is black magic sometimes. Since I got my HD setup, I've said that several times.

David, have you tried adding an attenuator to your antenna? I've seen a few people on this forum claim this helped them receive certain channels. Why would this work? Because it is possible to have too much signal and you probably have more signal than any of us. Also, for me at least, I get a highest signal reading on WB of the 6 stations. Radio shack sells VHF/UHF antenuators including one that is variable.

I agree WB may actually have a transmission problem, but since you have 2 receivers with the same problem, there may be something specific to your setup. The last few times I've tried WB, it has worked for me. I haven't seen the audio problem again (so far).

Dave G.

I have a 2-way splitter in the line, so already I'm down 3dB over the direct feed from the antenna. I added a 6dB attenuator, and then another 3dB, for a total of 12dB attenuation. The most interesting thing to me is that this didn't seem to hurt things at all. It also doesn't help my situation with WB. BTW, even without the additional attenuation I do get sound SOMETIMES now, but I have to change channels a few times, sometimes six or eight or even ten times, before the sound comes on.

To take this experiment to it's absurd conclusion, I added three more 2-way splitters, bringing the total to 4 splitters plus 9dB worth of attenuators. This makes for a total of 21dB of attenuation between the antenna and the HD card in my PC.

The result? All channels except WB still have sound (and picture). When I do get sound on WB, it cuts in and out continuously.

Something else that's "curious" is that the signal strength on 3 and 12 is only 21-23, and yet I still have a picture and sound. But the other 4 channels read 81 to as high as 92! Clearly there is something strange going on here. I wonder if the card could be picking up the signal directly, or purhaps my little array of slitters and attenuators is acting like a little antenna? Beats me, but the upshot is I am no closer to getting sound from WB.

David


Update: I tried connecting JUST the array of splitters and attenuators, just on the unlikely chance that it was in fact acting like a little antenna. I wasn't able to pick up any local DTT station.

Hmm, well that eliminates that possibility. One this for sure though, you have TONS of signal if you can add that much stuff in-line and still get all the channels.

The problem you describe with WB is exactly what happened to me before, but for some reason it has cured itself in my case. I haven't changed a thing though. I may have rebooted my receiver since then, but nothing else, not even a channel re-scan.

NBC and CBS should have less signal. CBS's antenna is all the way up in Hutch and NBC is transmitting with significantly less power than the other stations right now.

Dunno what to tell you David. If you've done the obvious (re-scan, reboot), then I don't know anything else to try. I agree WB is probably doing something that is causing this problem. Something probably got changed during their downtime. I assume it worked fine before??

If I have any more problems with them, I'll be sure to post it here. I watch Smallville each week.

Dave G.

Cox Cable Info?

Just read Comcast to Carry Super Bowl XXXVII in HDTV (http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030124/phf005_1.html) and wondered if anyone has heard anything about Cox's plans lately? I've spent a lot of time & money trying to get OTA HDTV at my house & don't really want to buy another HDTV tuner very soon. I still have time to return this one if Cox gets off their butt.

TIA,
Scot W.

Ps. This thread saved me a lot of searching for info. I collected a lot of it at Wichita HDTV Page (http://www.coonrod.com/scot/hdtv.htm) if anyone is interested.

Scot,

I have had some discussions with a VP with Cox Kansas and he said it will be awhile. He said the Motorolla boxes they are now using are too expensive for them to try to use, but Mot will be coming out with a cheaper box "sometime this year", so your guess is as good as anyones as to when Cox will provide HDTV. I am betting late 03 or early 04.

Scot,

Thank you for that link. I was not aware of it.

Dave,

I have a particularly high tech solution I'm going to try. Since the only things in common between my two HD receivers is the antenna and my location, I am trying a different antenna. A $2.99 Radio Shack UHF Bow-Tie. I will report back as soon as I have tried it out.

David

Get this. I can get ABC, FOX, WB, and UPN on a $2.99 ($3.18 with tax) Radio Shack Bow-Tie. I can't get NBC and CBS, but that's not surprising as Dave G. has pointed out.

WB? Still no sound. Most of the time anyway. When I DO get sound, it's choppy - cutting in and out constantly. THEY have a problem, or I will EAT this Radio Shack bow-tie.

David

David, what audio connection are you using? Have you tried the RCA stereo connection as well as the Coax/Optical out on your receivers? As I mentioned before, I *think* one change they made was going to dolby digital output. I used to get PCM on my receiver, now it shows DD2.0 when I tune to WB. Although, both connections seem to be working for me right now.

Dave G.

Dave G,

My Hughes receiver is connected to my surround processor via optical digital. Out of a few hundred antenna, cable, a satellite channels, WB is the only one without sound. I also have the Hughes connected to a video capture card in my PC via S-Video, with an RCA connection to the sound card. The HD card in my PC is connected to the sound card via an analog connection.

In other words, I've tried most, although not all, of the possibilities.

My sound problems started when WB reappeared after their long down-time. I don't recall having any problems prior to that.


David

I haven't checked today, but is 3-1 off the air? I rescanned channels on Friday and it didn't pick up KSNW-DT. I have tried manually tuning to 3-1 and 45-1 and both say "No Signal". I don't currently have access to the PC HD card as a cross check.

Still no word from Marty Heffner re: the sound problem I am having with WB. I got confirmation from another person that they also get no sound on WB. Unfortunately, he is using the same brand of HD card I am, so it could be a problem with the PC card or software. Of course, I also have the problem with my Hughes E86, but I won't be ready to declare it as definitely WB's problem until someone with a 3rd brand of receiver confirms it.

David

Haysdb, I'm on the SE side of town. W.B. sound takes a few seconds to come in and then the sound is choppy as you say. All sound on the other channels are fine. I agree with you that this was not a problem until they came back up. FYI I have a dish 6000, with the OTA module, so add that to the brand list. Over the weekend KSNW-DT has been very low 50%, and sometimes I'll lose them. When they first came on air they were around 65%. As for FOX I have also noticed the pixel problem.

Haysdb, I live in El Dorado and 3 has allways been my lowest signal, but I have been able to watch it most of the time.
All weekend I have been able to get a signal, but not allways a picture. And when I do get a picture it is all pixels.
I have a Sony HD200 and it shows the signal as low to mid poor.

John

I live in northwest Wichita and have also been having the same sound problems with the WB. At first I get no sound at all, after about 20 seconds I get it only intermittently. Its also much louder than the other stations. I have a Samsung 151 receiver.

Has anybody else had a problem with both Fox and UPN where upon changing to either of these channels, it can take anywhere from one to ten seconds before you start to receive any picture or sound. My receiver just flashes no signal on the screen even though I have eighty to ninety percent signal strength while all this is occuring. I have no problems after I start getting a picture. I still don't get any of the psip data from either of these stations even though I have tried to rescan them several times.
They both still show 26-1 and 35-1. After three months of trying to fix these problems I've concluded that there is something in both stations signals that my receiver just doesn't like. I was just curious to find if anyone else is seeing the same thing.

Thanks,
Rob

What has Jon Cyphers done to UPN?!?! It's coming in as a stretch mode (4x3 image showing as full screen) which means Enterprise that's in widescreen won't look right. No!!! :(

Dave G.

I haven't seen this problem with FOX or UPN, and I receive FOX as 24-1 (AND 24-2) and UPN as 33-1. You might send an email to Jon Cyphers, station engineer for FOX and UPN. I think his email address is included in a recent post. He has been very responsive to my emails, but as he may have some follow-up questions, best you email him directly.

Dave G, I will take a look, confirm your observation, then send an email to Jon. He warned me a few days ago that he would be changing some things, and that FOX and UPN would be off the air occasionally. I'm certain this was just a booboo.

I got an email from Marty Heffner today. He is at least finally taking this issue seriously. He says, in part... I am finding it very interesting about some of the information you have relayed. I have called the manufacture posing some of the questions about our audio but have not come up with any concrete information yet.David

Thanks David. I'm guessing your right. I'll shoot him an email tomorrow. I actually talked to him on the phone when I first got my tuner. I was just looking forward to watching Enterprise on the digital channel finally and got a little excited. :-)

I'm glad to see your making some progress with WB. Still working fine here though, watching Smallville right now.

Dave G.

After my last message I wondered down to the dungeon where my theater is located. Of 6 local digital channels, three of them had a problem. I still can't pick up NBC at all, UPN was black, and still no sound on WB. Actually, when I first tuned to WB, I did have sound, but not after I changed channels. I guess I need to dig up an address for someone at KSNW and see if I can find out what's going on. I am in NW Wichita, with an 8' antenna in my attic. If I can't pick it up, it's a sure thing LOTS of other folks are going to have a problem. Heck, I can pick up four stations with a $2.99 Radio Shack Bow-Tie. NBC must really be at low power. But why bother to broadcast at all if you can't even reach the Wichita market? How many people in Hutchinson have DTT receivers?

David


[Edit]Dave Rickels is the Chief Engineer (CE) at KSN. His email is daverickels@ksn.com
I have sent him an email. Feel free to do likewise, so the folks at KSN know someone is watching (or at least TRYING to watch) their digital channel.

Jon changed the aspect back to 4x3 on UPN today. As David has said, he's been incredibly helpful. He changed it after getting my note this morning about the problem. I got a little excited last night in my note about the aspect problem, but I certainly don't want it to sound like I'm complaining about anything he's done. He's making every effort to get things working. We just need to be patient. I'm 100% confident he'll get it working, although it may take some time.

One interesting observation though. When he had the aspect set to "full" or "stretched" on his end, I wasn't getting any glitching or pixelization. Now that he's switched it back to 4x3, the glitching has returned. Dunno if the two things are related, but I'll send him another note tomorrow and relay my observations. Maybe it will help him resolve the problems.

Dave G.

I watched channel 3.1 tonite from 8 to 9 . Had good pic and sound but signal was only to top of poor. All weekend and up to this eve. it's been to the bottom of poor.

John

I still can't get 3-1 (or 45-1) at all. I am going to remove the one splitter I have in the line from my antenna. Maybe that will be just enough that I can lock on to a signal, although I seriously doubt it. Last week I ADDED 21dB worth of splitters and attenuators and was still able to pick up all 6 local DTT stations.

I got an email from Jon Cyphers today. It makes for rather "enlightening" reading since it raises some issue I thought were dead. I am going to include it here in it's entirely, along with my reply. The floor is open for debate.
Jon Cyphers wrote

David-My encoder tech had me set UPN that way, because "most digital viewers have widescreens and most broadcasters set it that way so all stations would be 16x9." It looked a little stretched on our plasma (but not much), but I thought I would do some more research. On my 4x3 it looks nice with the encoder set in widescreen. What is the complaint? That during Enterprise that is already letterboxed the image is that much smaller? This was the case for me when I watched Mission Impossible (on 10-1) over the weekend on my projector, the image was letterboxed-letterboxed. I'll take a receiver home again (because I don't want to come here in the evenings if I'm not called in) and catch some UPN prime. Are most of the forum members watching on 16x9 or 4x3 format monitors?

You state that no TV's or receivers have squeeze modes, yet both my Zenith and Sencore receivers have multiple modes such as crop, letterbox, full, and the Zenith even has one that says "Squeezed". As an example, if I tune in our Fox 1080i and set the ratio to cropped, it fills the full screen on a normal 4x3 TV, getting rid of the letterbox and pillars. Is this a feature that came out only recently, and you guys don't have it?

This is why our troubleshooting is so difficult, different receivers are showing different things, and it's hard to pick one to trust.

We are experimenting with everything. While I'll try to keep a stable signal on the majority of the time, a lot of variables are going on. Such as today when we are going to ship our 1080i out of Wichita up our microwave path to Salina, so viewers up there will get 24-1 (26-2 ;) ) on channel 17 for a day or so. Right now the salina digital is nothing more than our analog signal upconverted in the shack, we're doing equipment tests to see if the microwave is stable enough to carry the digital out of Wichita.

The problems of it taking a second to lock in our stations has to do with our PSIP timing, I have that company going over a capture of our stream right now. The same company is working on the 26-2 problem. Both our complex problems that can't be fixed by simple configuration settings.

Sweeps (ratings) starts tomorrow night, so my main focus will be our analogs because that is where 99.9% of our viewers are, but I will continue to try and get our digital problems taken care of when I get time between analog problems.

Thanks for all of the info and your continued patience.

BTW - our email was transferred to a new server at our corporate office, so our email has been on the fritz, so if you get a returned msg, try sending it again later, It will eventually get through.

jon
My reply

Jon,

I do not share your encoder tech's point of view, although I can see where he's coming from. If your preference is for everything to "fill your screen", and don't mind your favorite actors and actresses looking 30 pounds overweight, then that would be desireable. I prefer to see programs in their original aspect ratio, so that 4:3 material has black bars on the sides. If I want these channels to fill my screen, I can use the stretch mode on my TV or STB.

I have two TV's (both 16:9) and two HD receivers, a total of 4 brands represented. Each of them has a variety of "stretch" and "expand" modes:
"Stretch" 4:3 material to 16:9 (this is what you were doing).
"Expand" letterboxed 4:3 programs, which have black bars on the left and right, and black bars on the top and bottom, to fill the screen. I sometimes use this for Enterprise, although since it's halfway between 4:3 and 16:9, I loose some of the top and bottom of the image.
None of these devices have any "squeeze" modes. I can see why this would be a desireable feature though - to handle stations which expand 4:3 material to 16:9! :-)

Although I personally prefer everything be in it's OAR, my unbiased advice is to NOT stretch 4:3 programming to 16:9. All of your customers with 16:9 TV's can do this if that is what they want. Stretch modes are ubiquitous, squeeze modes are not. Purhaps not everyone will be happy, but this is the standard way of doing it. No other Wichita station is broadcasting a stretched image.

I don't know how anything behaves on a 4:3 screen. Besides, a 4:3 HDTV is an oxymoron since HD is, by definition, 16:9. Mitsubishi doesn't even make 4:3 HDTV's any more. There isn't a single 4:3 plasma that I am aware of, nor any 4:3 DLP projectors intended for home theater. The only place you'll find 4:3 is in CRT's, because 16:9 CRT's are so bloody expensive.

I know I speak for everyone on the forum when I say we all appreciate the work you are doing, and the learning curve you are experiencing. Everyone is experiencing their share of problems. I can't get sound on WB. I haven't been able to get NBC at ALL since late last week due to a very weak signal. And on and on.

I will let everyone know that you'll have your hands full for the next week.

David

My original point was in regards to any broadcast, like Enterprise, that is shown in 4x3 letterbox. As Jon states, the image will be letterboxed on all sides on a 16x9 TV. BUT, you can activate a "zoom" image mode on most HDTV's which makes the broadcast fullscreen and the correct aspect ratio.

OTOH, if the source is already stretched to fill a 16x9 screen, then it is not possible to get the aspect ratio correct. The image for Enterprise for example, ends up compressed vertically with letterboxing on a 16x9 TV.

Anyway, he did switch it back, so that problem is resolved. It's much better for them to send the image in the original format and let us adjust accordingly.

BTW, has the audio problem been resolved on WB?? Jon indicated in an email to me that Marty had resolved it.

Dave G.

Dave G.,
The sound on WB has not been fixed. Not for me anyway. It's still approximately 20dB lower in level than all the other local DTT channels and my DirecTV channels. I have gotten nothing from Marty Heffner indicating that the problem has been fixed, only that he is working on it. My other HD receiver is not currently available to me.

Of the six local DTT channels, I get four at 100%. 19 (CBS) is only 51%. 45 (NBC) is 12% which is too low to be received. Since I do get four stations so strongly, tonight I will play with the orientation of my antenna to optimize reception on 45 and 19, and then verify that I haven't lost one or more of the other stations. When I pointed the antenna, 45 was definitely not yet on the air, and possibly not 19 either.

According to www.antennaweb.org, 45 (NBC) is furthest to the left, but it's clustered together with 21 (ABC) and 26 (FOX), both of which I receive at 100%. 19 is right in the middle, so I might optimize signal strenth on 19 and see if that8u's enough to pick up 45 without loosing UPN, which is off to the right. But that doesn't make any sense. Don't FOX and UPN broadcast from the same tower? Not according to attenaweb. Maybe I'll just turn the antenna a bit to the left and give 45 another try.

[Edit] I rotated the antenna some degrees to the left. Signal strength on 45 (NBC) has increased only to 15 while 19 (CBS) has dropped from 52 to only around 30. I dare not go further or I will loose CBS. All other stations remain at 100%, which is no surprise since I can receive them with a COAT HANGER.

I agree 100% that programs should be broadcast in their original aspect ratio. To do otherwise doesn't make any sense. You force too many customers to counter your zig with a zag, and not every component is equipped with a zag control.

David

I just sent this to Dave Rickles, Chief Engineer at KSN. I suppose y'all can tell I'm a little PO'd at KSN.Dave,

I have adjusted my antenna orientation, but at best I get a signal strength of 15 on channel 45. If I rotate it any further I will loose CBS, which has dropped from 52 to 30 while my signal stength on NBC has increased just 3 points to 15. I can pick up all other local DTT channels with a COAT HANGER. What is the issue with your digital signal? Everyone on the AVS forum is complaining of, at best, frequent dropouts, and many are in the same boat as I and can't pull it in at all. For now, I am going to rotate my antenna back to the right so that at least I get a good signal on CBS, and forget about NBC until you (1) figure out what's going on and (2) communicate it with your customers.

David Hays
"Wichita KS DTV/HDTV resource thread" at www.avsforum.com

David,
Here is a different map of exactly where the KSN tower is. I got this at 100000watts.com .

I believe you are in northwest Wichita, right?? Maybe you are getting too much signal??

Have you tried just the bowtie antenan with a small cable (3 ft. ) cable going directly into the STB?? I am not all that familiar with Wichita, but it doesn't seem like you would be more than 5-10 miles, close enought where you could easily overload on signal.

just curious.

tim

Tim,

It's not a problem of too much signal. Read back a few posts and you will see that I have tried a RS bowtie. I have also tried adding attenuators to my antenna lead. The signal strength from KSN is 12 to 15 on my Hughes receiver, vs. 100 for four of the other five stations. Also, it is known that NBC and CBS are broadcasting at a lower power (for whatever reason) than the other stations. My question is, why is KSN broadcasting a signal that even a person in NW Wichita, only a stone's throw from the tower, is unable to receive? Are they even AWARE that few customers (with the equipment to do so) can receive their broadcast?

I am going to call the station and get to the bottom of this...

OK. Heres the deal. The engineer I talked to, not Dave Rickles (who is out of town) first said I had to be a "mathematical oddity" in not being able to receive KSN-DT since he was unaware of anyone having any problem. I then said "no, I am most definitely NOT unique in not being able to receive your signal" and pointed out that few, if any, people on this forum have reported "no problem" receiving their signal, that everyone is either reporting being completely off the air or, at best, experiencing frequent breakups. What's weird though is he said they are receiving the signal at their station with a small Radio Shack antenna on the roof (albeit a 3 story roof) and an estimated 200' of RG6. What finally peaked his interest was me saying that the problems seemed to start (for me anyway) late last week. He said something about "maybe we lost a module" and indicated he might even drop by the transmitter himself and make sure everything was OK. He said this was not his area of expertise and that he would forward my name and number to Dave Rickels, who he referred to as "the RF guy". One other thing, he indicated KSN-DT would not be at full power until "this summer". But then, he also said "don't quote me on that." :-)

David

OK,
So what does an attenuator do? Do you know what power they are at? Our NBC in Topeka is broadcasting at a whopping 1kW ERP. They say that will reach Wamego, which is more than 20 miles. Does your STB have two inputs for dtv channels?? Have you tried skinning a few inches off the end of some coax cable and using that? It just seems at that close, you will do better than 10- 15 on your signal bar.

What about a rotator, do you use one? Any hills in KSN's direction?


edited to ask another question

An attenuator reduces the signal level. They were sometimes used to eliminate ghosts from analog signals. They really don't make any sense with a digital signal, but I tried the idea anyway, just in case there is such a thing as "too strong" a signal. I personally don't think this is possible, but I'm open to any ideas anyone has, even if I think they sound whacky.

They are definitely not at full power. This was confirmed by the engineer I spoke to at KSN.

My STB has two inputs, one for DirecTV diplexed with either cable or an antenna signal, then a second coax input for cable/antenna. In total it can accept three signals - DirecTV, cable, antenna.

I have not tried a different antenna on the Hughes STB, although I did try a Radio shack bowtie on another HD receiver. I could pull in the four stations I get at a signal strength of 100 on my Hughes. I could not pull in NBC and CBS which are broadcasting at low power. And this was even before I started having trouble tuning in NBC.

Hopefully someone at KSN will actually try to tune in their own station at home with a consumer STB and they will understand what the problem is. Instead they are getting it just fine on their professional Sencor decoder with their antenna 50 feet in the air, and they say "we don't have any problem here at the station." I really am tired of hearing that. It took Jon Cyphers at FOX/UPN to borrow an HD receiver from Hephner TV, take it home and hook it up, before he could see what we were seeing. Marty Heffner "believes me," but I'm pretty sure he hasn't seen it with his own eyes (or rather heard it with his own ears) so I think he's not totally convinced yet that WB has a problem with their sound.

I haven't had any issue with KAKE-DT, nor have I read any reports of others with problems with KAKE, so I know it's possible to broadcast a signal that everyone can receive reliably. Tricky as hell maybe, but possible.

David


[Edit] Corrected the name of Hephner TV. Thanks to Marty Heffner, CE for WB, for pointing this out.

KSN has definitely been flakey for me too.
Earlier today I was getting about 45% on it and was getting a pretty steady picture and sound. I live in the Pawnee and Meridian area in Southwest Wichita.

Last week I was hitting 100% a couple of times on KSN. But it seems to fluctuate wildly sometime. I have an RCA DTC-100 receiver. My antenna is a large outdoor Radio Shack on about a twenty foot pole.

Kevin C. :)

Thats what is wierd about Davids situation Kevin. You are farther away, but getting a better signal that him.

I had my son help me tonight see if I could orient my antenna such that I could bring in NBC. I gave him one two-way radio and I took the other to the attic. I rotated the antenna as far to the West as I could - it bumps into a rafter somewhere a bit West of NW and can't go any further. I was able to bring in channel 45-1, but my son said it was "fuzzy", which I assume means "blocky" or "pixelated" since at that point the signal was still only up to 30. I then had him tune to channel 19 and he said it was a black screen. I ended up ratating it back to exactly where I had positioned it a few months ago, which optimizes reception for channel 19 (signal strength in the low 60's) while keeping all the other stations at 100.

Is should be noted than an attic is NOT an optimum location for an antenna, but at least it's a BIG antenna, something like 8' across at the longest elements, and it's a shake shingle roof, two factors which I had hoped would mitigate the attic placement. My next step would be to mount an antenna on the roof, but it's unlikely I will do this. Not only would it antagonize the Reflection Ridge Homeowners Association, but it's just not worth the trouble considering it's only NBC that I can't get, and they will be going to full power within half a year or so according to the engineer I spoke with today. I'm still wondering why I WAS able to get that station until a week ago.

David

I am using a Sony HD200 HD rec. Have a RS 10 foot beam ant. and Channel Master 7778 pre amp on a tower around 40 ft high. Useing quad coax, about 60 feet run.
My signal meter does't show percent, it has bad normal and good.

Tonite I am getting 5 digital channels, all showing from 1/4 to 3/4 into good.
The only exception is 3.1 . It shows 1/4 to 3/4 in poor, which is not good enough to get a pic. Last week it would give me 1/4 into normal which gave me a good picture.

NBC needs to get their act together. I sent them an email but have not heard back.

John

John,

That puts the issue totally to rest as far as I am concerned. I will stop feeling "guilty" that my setup "isn't good enough" to pull in a signal on 3-1. If you can't get it with THAT set-up, it ain't there to be got!

David

Yea, I wouldn't worry about NBC. They've always been transmitting at a low power level. My guess is they reduced it even further. Dave Rickles told me when they first went online that they would upgrade the equipment in the spring. Hopefully they're still on track to do that.

I got another note from Jon Cyphers also. He's still working the UPN issues. It sounded like he may have found the problem, but a solution to it hasn't been found yet.

Dave G.

David,

I am using a Silver Sensor and have been getting NBC pretty consistently at 45 - 60%. However, I only get that signal if my antenna is pointed roughly 5 degrees west of due North. If it is off by about one degree I get major breakups. If its off any more than that and I get 0% signal. The antenna usually sits still, but if does get bumped I have to rotate it very slowly to find the right direction and to give my receiver a chance to lock on to the signal. No other station is anywhere near this touchy, but I find that I get the best reception for all stations when my antenna is pointed to the North and not to the West. Also, don't touch the metal on the antenna with your bare hands while your adjusting it. I've noticed that these weak digital signals are much, much more sensitive to this than an analog signal. Touching, or sometimes only being in close proximity to, my antenna will ruin an otherwise okay signal. Please disregard this post if these are things that you already knew, but I haven't noticed a similar reduction in signal and also live in Northwest Wichita. I hope some of this helps.

Rob

David,
Try a silver sensor. Or have someone come over with their box and hook it up to your antenna cable.

I have heard good things about the siver sensor, and I am considering trying one here at work if the antenna I have coming doesn't work. I am not doubting you, I just find it odd that someone in the same area get it at 45-60% with an indoor antenna and you are having trouble. Perhaps a small outdoor anteanna on a rotator will cure all that ails you. They can actually be pretty consipicious if you do a good job.

just suggestion, I want you to be able to pick that channel up.

I'm not going to go to any heroic lengths to pick up KSN. When they go to full power, the problem will go away. I also remain curious as to why I could pick them up until a week ago but now I can't. Nothing has changed on my end so far as I know.

Long term, I would prefer to get all my programming via cable. DirecTV is ok, and the attic antenna works, but my druthers would be to get everything via cable. I'm not holding my breath, but I think the only thing holding up HD cable in Wichita is a good and affordable STB with a shelf life longer than 6 months. They have the infrastructure now, already being "fiber to the hubs". I'll bet it's an option before this year is out.

David

David,
Perhaps you should get ahold of Don Karell. He is the VP of Cox Kansas. I have exchanged many emails with him and he says that it the problem, being affordable STB that that will not loose their tail on by renting them to you. He never really said for sure this year, but I bet you are right. At least let him know more than a few are interested.

tim

I checked around COX' website but the only email contact info was to Sales, or Support, or Billing. No individual emails were listed. I sent a message via the online form, but I know where those usually go...to the great beyond.

I bought a Channel Master 4221 (not a 4228 as I previously wrote) antenna from a fellow forum member today. I haven't gotten it installed yet. It's a UHF only antenna, but with all the local DTT broadcasts located in the UHF band, I don't need VHF any more. I said I wasn't going to any heroic efforts to pick up NBC, but here I am. :)

David

Just adding another data point regarding KSN...I have also noticed that their signal is weaker this past week or so. I used to get it in the 80-90% range (near 13th & Maize). Now it is 45-55%, still good enough for viewing. The timing of this drop in signal coincides with the problems David is having.

A mini rant on another topic: I give a big thumbs down to our local station's logos--especially KAKE and KWCH. Can they make them any larger?! Sheesh, KAKE's is about 2.5 times the size of the ABC logo, and KWCH's is just plain too big and bold! Plus, they interfere with graphics in some program content, such as football. Anyone who's gone through the expense and hassle to tune into these digital stations is already acutely aware of which station he is watching...give 'em a rest!!

hey guys been awhile since I have posted a reply.

I was reading your posts and noticed the problems with ksn. I on the other hand have more problems with kake dropping signals my cbs and nbc are always hitting the upper80's to 90's on signal while kake drops down in the 60's sometime casuing some freezing. Not for sure. I am located in park city like 61st and grove and that is my readings in the last few months. Just some input for you guys..

Hessman

Yea I definatly agree with the logo's cbs's is huge ....why they gotta do that....

Yea, the logos suck. Most of them are the watermark type, but there is still potential for burn in as well if you watch a particular station a lot.

Dave G.

P.S. I also sent a reply to the original email I got from Dave Rickels asking about KSN. Originally they were transmitting at 1000 watts, which is low comparted to other stations.

KSN will be going to full power "this summer", from what I was told by another engineer at KSN. He didn't know whether that meant May or July or September though.

It's funny, I HATE those logos too, and yet I have never once complained about them to the station managers.

OK, I'm heading up into my attic now, right after I do one last check of signal strength of channel 45, for a before and after comparison.

David

I replaced my Radio Shack combination UHF/VHF antenna with a Channel Master 4221 4-way bowtie UHF only antenna I bought from fellow AVS member John Lister. I have been able to get my signal strength on channel 45 up to 37, which is enough to pull in a stable picture. Signal strength on channel 19-1 (KWCH CBS 12-1) is also up a bit, into the 70's, and all the other DTT channels are still pegging the meter at 100.

:)

David

I'm not surprised at that. The general consensus on this forum is that UHF only antennas like the CM you bought are the best. This is why my little RSDB antenna works so well. I can't get KSN now, but that's understandable considering the low power levels.

Congrats by the way.

Dave G.

Looks like Fox and UPN finally fixed their audio problems as all Wichita feeds are working great today! I never have a problem with NBC and I use a 5 year old Terk "stick" six foot long VHF/UHF antenna in the attic pointed at Colwich.

David, I'm glad it worked for you but I still feel bad about giveing you the wrong number.
I am still just geting 3.1 on and off here in El Dorado.

John

I'm getting video on 3-1 consistantly now, but a show on last night between 8 and 10 looked really weird, like the frame rate was really low. It was a little like watching people on the dance floor in a disco, with a strobe light. Motion wasn't fluid, but kindy jerky. I've seen that sometimes in movies, Saving Private Ryan comes to mind, where it's done for "cinematic effect" but in this case the whole show was that way. It was disturbing and unwatchable. I don't know if this was an artifact of a marginal signal or if they had some other problem going on.

I'm looking forward to speaking with Dave Rickels about these issues.

John, don't sweat giving me the wrong number. The antenna is exactly what I need. The larger 8-way bowtie would have been overkill and would have been harder to install. I still paid less than half of what a new one would have cost with shipping. No blood no foul.

David

I just got an e-mail from Dave Rickels and he said he had reset his equipment. I checked and I am getting the best signal I have ever gotten on 3.1 Hope you all are doing as well. It looks great but I haven't had much time to view it yet.

John

Get this. My signal strength on 3-1 is now 87-93. I feel vindicated. "Mathematical Oddity" my arse. :)

David

Hehehe, just needed a reboot. Must be running on a Billsoft product....

Dave G.

I think I finally got the timing correct on my PSIP tables correcting the 24-1/26-2 problem on Fox. Please try rescanning and see if you have the same results. Also, I have watched several hours of Fox and have yet to find video problems, hopefully it will be the same for you.

On UPN, the encoder was sent to us with a setting in the wrong position, I think the video jerking problem is fixed, I have yet to see it today. Again let me know if you see any problems, I will be watching the stations closely also.

Please forward this to other forum members and invite them to email me directly if they still see problems.

I will now work towards passing Fox in 16x9 when it's available in prime, we still require some more equipment to make it happen. UPN doesn't offer 16x9, so nothing will change on it.

Thanks!
jon

Jon Cyphers
Assistant Chief Engineer
FOXKansas and UPNKansas
(KSAS-TV, KSAS-DT, KAAS-TV, KAAS-DT, KBDK-TV, KSAS-LP, KAAS-LP, KSCC-TV, KSCC-DT)
Wichita, KS
jcyphers@clearchannel.com
Voice 316-942-2424
Fax 316-942-8927
www.foxkansas.com www.upnkansas.com

I watched some wsu basketball on HDNET tonight. It replays at like 1 int he morning if anybody wants to check it out. Picture was just unbelievable. I gotta say that the HDNET channel has the best picture I have seen so far. Just thought I would pass it on to all the wichita people.

I checked my signal on my ksn and it is a constant 94-95 instead of upper 80's and lower 90's. Well guess we just have to keep on everybody at the stations.

Hessman

I just finished watching Enterprise on UPN. I saw no problems at all, worked perfectly. :-) Kudos to Jon Cyphers for all his efforts to get FOX and UPN working well.

Dave G.

I have a different brand of HD card for my PC than I had before, and this one doesn't seem to have any trouble getting sound on WB. That eliminates my geographic location as the problem. Nothing has changed on the Hughes E86, so it's doesn't seem to be attributable to something Marty Heffner has done. He told me in a recent email that he was still using a loaner encoder, which is about the time my troubles began. Maybe when he gets his encoder back , my problem will go away. I can hope anyway.

I missed the WSU basketball on HDNET last night. I assume it was just a little clip because I saw nothing on the channel guide, and when I got to the TV at just about 5 minutes after 1, a PPV movie was already on. I'd love to see it, even if it's just a minute or two.

David

Na it was the whole game. I sent an e-mail to HDNET telling them they need to get KU basketball on HDNET. I also gave them some good feedback on the broadcast. I will just great. I still could not believe that in all thier programming that they would come to Wichita for that game. Who knows the HDNET person was interviewing the coach at halftime and he was really advertising the new Charles KOCH arena and all of wichita. So it was prolly more of a selling thing. Who knows...

Hessman

The basketball game, Illinois State @ Wichita State will be rebroadcast:

Sunday, Feb 9, 10:30 AM
Sunday, Feb 9, 10:00 PM

To find a specific program, go to www.hd.net and click the link in the left column "Search HDNet Programming".

Thanks Hessman!

I sure wish I had a way to record HDNet! I can now record the local broadcasts, but not DirecTV. I saw a press release a few days ago that Tivo has announced an HD PVR design, with products expected around the end of the year.

David

What kind of recorder are you using. I figure your pc is probably what you are using. If so what video card... I am thinking of getting a htpc together and just cannot decide on a video card for hd... Let me know

Hessman

Hessman,
I use a MyHD card, but I have yet to get a digital signal so I cannot comment on how well it works.

I am using a MyHD card.

An ATI Radeon of almost any variety comes highly recommended for HTPC duties. I am using a 9000 Pro.

I watched the Wichita State game this morning. Now THAT's the way to watch a basketball game. HDNet did a great job with the broadcast. After the game was over I flipped over to a couple of college basketball games on regular TV and the difference was dramatic to say the least. Regular TV is simply unwatchable after your brain adjusts to High Definition. That's depressing considering it's likely to be a long time before the next WSU game is broadcast in HD.

David

True True....cant wait until espn goes HD....When will that be....

Thanks for the info of the card. the Radeon is one that I have liked the most. Just wish I could pipe my dtc-100 15pin vga into it... That would be nice...

Hessman

I'm having problems with Fox again (24-1). I get no picture or sound, but the receiver shows 93% signal. I had this problem when I originally got the receiver, but it fixed itself at some point. I've rebooted, rescanned, etc... with no effect.

Is anyone else having this problem?

Dave G.

Update: It's working now. I think Jon may be working on it. I got a 16x9 test pattern a moment ago.

Jon must be tweaking it now. He's got 16x9 working for the Busch race! He's the man!

Dave G.

heak yea I got 16x9 nascar racing.. sound is working for the moment...Glad to see fox is moving on up

Hessman

This is my first message...looking for some advice. I live on the north east side (21st & Webb). Does anyone know if the indoor Silver Sensor will pull in all channels or will I need to go with a bigger antenna (attic mounted?). Also, any idea on the best place in town to by my tuner?

Thanks.

I was able to pull in 4 or 5 stations with a Radio Shack bow-tie, so even though I am in NW Wichita, I'd say you have a pretty good chance of picking up at least most of the local channels with the Silver Sensor, which is more directional than the Radio Shack bow-tie and therefore able to tune in weaker signals. It seems worth a try, so long as the antenna will be above ground level.

As for where to buy, Hephner TV deserves a look, then Best Buy. Are you looking for an OTA-only receiver or OTA + DirecTV/DISH?

David

Looking for an OTA + DirectTV.

I'll give the Silver Sensor a try...if that doesn't work, may upgrade from there.

I tried the Silver Sensor in a home near the Crestview Country Club and it didn't work too well but Crestview is kind of in a hole. I did get some reception on the main floor but the signal strengths were not what I'd consider reliable. Perhaps if I would've had it in teh attic?... I ended up putting a Winegard in the attic and it is performing well.

A Silver Sensor in the Harbor Isle (North Meridian) development worked absolutely great just sitting on top of the TV on the main floor. I am impressed with the Silver Sensor!

I got a RCA DTC-100 That I might be interested in selling for a very good price. PM me and let me kow if your interested Chrisb25

My signal strength on NBC (KSNW-DT, 45-1, 3-1) is back down to 21, where it was prior to Feb 2. I get a black screen on my Hughes E86. I can still pull in a solid image on a MyHD card, but with occasional dropouts. I have sent an email to Dave Rickels.

My signal strength is still 100 on all other channels except for CBS (KWCH, 19-1, 12-1) where it's only in the 50's.

Can anyone else confirm the weak signal on NBC?

David

I am getting 80's on NBC. I just was scanning the channels and 19 or 12-1 has a signal on my setup menu but comes up weak signal and not picture. Not for sure if cbs is having problems too. 8:44 this morning.

Hessman

I can get 19 great, but I have also lost 3.1. I just get it off and on, not even a third of the way on my meter.

John

Received this from Dave Rickels:The transmitter is having a problem, power is down to 22%.
we are working on it.
drDavid

Finally jumped in. Bought a Silver Sensor and a Samsung T160 open box (great deal). The only stations I can get are UPN and WB...12-1 won't even show up in the guide. I'll keep tweaking...

Hey Chris,

I may be able to help. I have a TS-160 with the RS Double Bowtie indoor antenna. I've been able to get all of the channels here at my apartment, but it wasn't easy. You should be able to get 4 of the 6 channels though. NBC and CBS are a problem because of NBC low power transmitter and CBS is a lot farther away (Hutch). I can get them both, but sometimes I have to move my antenna to get one or the other to work.

Are all of the channels except 12-1 showing up in the guide? Make sure you"ve gone into the "installation" menu and set your zip code under "local networks". In looking at mine, it appears DirecTV is adding 4 out of 6. They are not adding CBS and NBC (12-1 and 3-1).

The one complaint I have with the TS-160 is initially tuning local channels. If they are not added by the DirecTV guide (local networks), then it's tough sometimes to get the locked into the guide.

The only way to add another OTA channel to the guide is to either manually tune AND sync a channel (meaning you enter 3-1 on the remote and you get picture and sound) or do a digital channel scan from the "antenna and cable" menu.

For manual tuning, if you enter 3-1 and it goes to a snowy screen, it did not sync and 3-1 will not be saved in the guide. The receiver has to receive PSIP data from the station in order for the channel to be saved. The same is basically true for the channel scan. If the TS-160 does not find a channel, then nothing is added to the guide.

You can probably see the problem with this now. If your not receiving a channel with your current antenna setup, then there's no way to add the channel to the guide unless DirecTV is adding it (which they are not for 3-1 and 12-1 as of right now).

With all that said, my advice is to get the other 4 channels working first (10-1, 24-1, 33-1, and 36-1). You should be able to get those as I get high signal strength on all 4 of them. Make sure you have a good coax cable connecting the Silver Sensor to your receiver and try tweaking the antenna position. You can tweak the antenna position similarly to the a satellite dish. Tune to a channel you are not getting (that's in the guide) and go to the signal strength meter in the setup menu. Then start moving the antenna around slowly until you maximize the signal strength.

Let me know what progress your making. I'm in the middle of moving right now (finally getting out of this apartment and into a house, woohoo!), but when I get settled I would be willing to give you more help.

One thing that we could do is hook your receiver to my antenna and do a channel scan. Assuming I'm getting them all, then that would lock all of the channels into the guide making it easier to tweak, but that will have to wait a while until I finish moving and get my stuff working again.

Anyway, this may make things sound bad for the TS-160, but it does work great once you get past the OTA tuning problems. The constant S-video out is nice, that's for sure.

Dave G.

Wow, thanks for the help talon95. I'll give your suggestions a try next time I have a chance. Unfortunately, I am switching jobs this week and that will most likely keep me tied up.

I'll let you know if I have any success.

Just a couple of quick notes. When you first tune in a channel you should use the physical channel, so 45-1 rather than 3-1. Until you find the station to begin with, you can't use the "logical channel" number. Second, DirecTV doesn't add the stations to your guide. I don't know where the heck they come from, but DirecTV swears up and down it isn't them. It's magic I guess.

David

Yes, David is right about tuning to the physical channel. As I recall CBS is 19-1 and as David said, NBC is 45-1. For the TS-160, you need to enter the full channel number also (19-1, not 19).

OTOH, DirecTV is full of sh*t. They do add the channels. What the heck do they think the zip code is for!?!? When you put a zip code in, it downloads the channel data from the satellite. If anyone is not convinced and still thinks the info is coming from OTA, try entering a zip code from some other part of the country.

Dave G.

yea.. I did another channel search and my cbs was coming up 12-1 before and now it is 19-1 and coming in with no problems. I agree with you guys on the Directv poplulating the guides. You guys getting info on fox and abc?

hessman

Hessman,

Do you mean channel guide info? I get guide info on ABC, FOX, and UPN. The other three just show "Local Programming"

I wish I could remember more of the conversation I had with the DirecTV folks. They said "We don't provide local programming in your area, therefore we don't provide channel guide information". I said "OK, but I am seeing channel guide info for all my local cable and OTA channels" and they said words to the effect "No you're not". They said channels 100 and above come from them. Channels below 100 do not come from them. When I asked where this information could possibly be coming from if not from them, they said "We don't know, but it's not us" and then suggested "from Hughes". It's GOT to be coming down from the satellite, but beyond that I can't say. My non-HD RCA receiver doesn't show local channels in the guide and I have to switch input on the TV to switch between satellite and cable.

David

Managed to find some time to mess around with my antenna...I'm getting all channels except NBC. Man, what a difference! Are they still having signal problems?

Also, for those with the Samsung TS-160, can you get guide info for cable stations.

Thanks.

That's good to hear. Just takes some tweaking of the antenna position. I generally don't get NBC very well even when they're supposedly transmitting properly. Their power output is a lot lower than the other stations. If you get them all working with one antenna position, I'd be interested to know. I've been tempted to get a Silver Sensor to improve reception.

I don't think you can get cable channel info. Although since I've had the TS-160, I haven't had cable service. Part of the reason I bought it was to rid myself completely of Cox cable (except for the cable modem). They quit giving a discount on the cable modem with the basic package, so I dropped them completely.

Dave G.

Man the grammy's were looking so good until they took off the hdtv prolly so they can show the freaking cancellations. What about all those cbs commercials. Kinda cool. Just wish I could see college ball in HDTV...well At least ku games....

Hessman

Another quick question...has anybody noticed a difference in the sound on channel 19-1? It shows that it is in DD 5.1, but I can't get any sound from my center channel. Every other station sounds fine.

I have been having that same problem. Kinda like everything is kinda echoing. I thought I might of had a loose wire on my receiver or something. Not for sure what the deal is..

Hessman

The Director of Engineering at KWCH (19-1) is Don Vest, dvest@kwch.com

David

CBS always broadcasts DD5.1, but most of the time there is only audio on the front l/r channels. When they show something that has full 5.1 encoding, you get sound from all 6 channels (like movies shown in HD). I think it's been that way since they started broadcasting.

Dave G.

Response from Don Vest:

CBS is only transmitting in 2 channels on the HDTV. They plan to update to
> 5.1 this year.

Also, if you have an attic mounted antenna, does it have to be grounded?

Did you guys see that Cox in Oklahoma City is now offering HDTV. They are making you buy the box though, but still, it makes me think it will come here in not too long.

Timmy, Cox coming online in OKC is certainly a good sign. Making the customer buy the decoder box is certainly one way to minimize their investment. As long as they use standard cable boxes, which a person could buy and sell just like any other HD receiver, I don't have a problem with it. I'd prefer to choose my own STB anyway since I might want something different than the cable company is providing. I wonder if they are requiring a particular make and model of cable box? Even that wouldn't be bad, so long as it's a good box and they are selling it directly at somewhere near their cost, and not trying to make a big profit from it.

Chris, I'd suggest that an attic antenna should be grounded. HOW to ground it is another story. I grounded mine to the cold water pipe where it enters my house, but not every "expert" source likes this idea. If you have a grounding rod already, such as for cable or DirecTV, it'd be pretty safe to add your ground to that. In my reading there was a lot of talk about having a SINGLE ground. Since my antenna is at the other end of the house from the existing ground rod, I was originally going to drive a second grounding rod, but everything I read said this would be a bad idea. I'm not sure the water pipe is any better idea, but the fact is, there seemed to be about as many opinions on the subject as sources.

One other point. The grounding rod should be driven quite deep into the ground. I think sometimes the cable company uses a rather shorter grounding rod than the more conservative recommendations. Unfortunately, short of pulling it out of the ground, there's no way to know how long it is.

There are probably threads in this forum dedicated to antenna grounding.

David

I wonder why the HDTV launch schedule for Cox Cable has to be such a secret. I've emailed them a couple of times, and they just respond by cutting and pasting the blurb from the web site.

"...Cox has not released a specific system-by-system launch schedule at this time, but we will keep you informed about exciting new offerings in your area."

I know that I'm just frustrated by my own impatience, but, damn, I know they have a tentative date for Wichita. Why can't they just keep me informed about that?

I've just read all about the HD service available in OKC. It looks like they are not renting the STBs, the customer has to purchase one from an authorized dealer for $500. I'd be OK with that. I'd rather rent one, but I understand the need to keep their initial investment down.

Anyway, I'll stop whining now. I've been waiting (im)patiently, because I really believe that receiving my HD broadcasts over cable is ultimately the best way to go for me.

Regards. Jay.

Originally posted by XRay
I've been waiting (im)patiently, because I really believe that receiving my HD broadcasts over cable is ultimately the best way to go for me.

Regards. Jay.

As it is for me as I cannot get any OTA HDTV. I hope Cox get it in gear.

tim