Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 10

BuckNut

03-09-05, 01:03 PM

This brings up a couple interesting questions I have been pondering for a while.

This going to be a long post, so please bear with me.

First, let me outline my setup and situation which will lead me to the questions. I live on the north side of Fairborn and last July finally took the plunge and got an HD projector and HD setup from D*. Of course, the D* HD STB (Samsung TS360) also receives off the air broadcasts. After doing a bit of research online, mostly on this website, and visiting antennaweb.org, I decided to purchase the Zenith Silver Sensor indoor antenna. I know some of your are familiar with this antenna and most people highly recommend it for people who are as close as I am to the transmitters (14.5 miles). It is a log periodic antenna, has a high front to back ratio, and is therefore very directional. Since all the Dayton transmitters are in the same area, so far so good. I have had this setup for 8 months now and have observed the following:

1) It seems like no matter what I do with the antenna inside I can almost never receive all the digital stations at once without dropouts. For example, if I want to watch 7-1 or 2-1 there is usually some repositioning of the antenna required. There doesn't seem to be a pattern as to what channels will come in when, and I have yet to find any "sweet spots" that are channel specific. Now this puzzles me. Keep in mind that I am only 14.5 miles from the transmitters which are all in the same location and have a highly directional UHF only antenna. Why is there any repositioning of the antenna required at all and why does that really help?

2) My experience with Fox on Monday for 24 was interesting. 45-1 is the channel which usually comes in all the time for me not matter where the antenna is positioned. It seems to have the most consistent and strongest signal. However, the other night I was having quite a few dropouts and the solution to make sure this doesn't happen is to place the antenna on my front porch. I did this and all was well. Now, I understand that by using an indoor antenna I am probably attenuating the signal by at least 3db or 50% and that by placing it outside I am giving myself a good advantage. But... it gets trickier. I have observed (and I put no scientific stock in what I say whatsoever) that my reception tends to be much worse at times when it is windy outside. It was windy on Monday night and I suffered from dropouts on all channels before moving the antenna outside. This makes no sense to me. The wind itself should not attenuate the signal much in any way, and I refuse to believe there are objects in between me and the transmitters that move so much in the wind as to significantly block my line of sight. Is there any kind of other explanation here?

I have plans to erect a channelmater 4228 8 bay UHF antenna on the roof in order to try to pull in Columbus and/or Cincinnati. However, I approach this plan now with some trepidation. If I can't pull in stations consistently from 14.5 miles away with a supposedly good directional indoor UHF antenna, does my plan of receiving Columbus or Cincinnati with a 4228 have much success? I would hate to spend the money on all the equipment to do so (antenna, preamp, wiring, rotator, etc.) to come up with little to zilch. A good side effect though is that I am sure I would receive Dayton with no problems.

I didn't think that I was in much of a valley or anything that would limit my reception capabilities. Am I wrong about that?

Now for a few more details...

Unfortunately, the Samsung TS360 has a notoriously inaccurate and useless signal meter that is well documented elsewhere in these forums, so I have no way of getting even a good relative reading for signal strength between channels. Some possible explanations have been offered that may or may not have any credence to them.

1) All my equipment including amp, STB, and HTPC sits in the same location and within a few feet of where the antenna normally rests. Could I have some sort of interference issue going on?

2) Someone suggested that maybe the power wiring in my house was not well shielded and causing me problems. I think this seems like a long shot.

3) The TS360's OTA tuner is just not very sensitive and needs to be given every advantage to receive a signal without dropouts.

Any and all comments, questions or advice are welcomed.

Scott

dusterscott

03-09-05, 01:22 PM

Scott,

I'm down here in Middletown and also use a Sammy TS-360. I don't think you'd have any problems at all with an outdoor-mounted antenna. I don't get the audio dropouts that you experience. Both my next door neighbor and I have tried indoor antennas with no luck whatsoever (Cincinnati and Dayton channels). I think there's just too much attenuation indoors. Do you have any large trees in the way? Perhaps big branches blowing back and forth are making your problem worse.

BuckNut

03-09-05, 01:29 PM

Yes, there is one large tree right in my front yard which is in the way. However, it has no leaves on it at the moment. Does that matter? If I put the antenna outside it still has to go through the same tree, yet has no problems. Of course, with the antenna outside the added strength of the signal may overcome that. I have read many reports of people using these antennas 30 or 40 miles away from transmitters with no problems. I suppose it is possible those people have better lines of sight or are on a hill or something. Tonight I may try running a coax cable upstairs and putting the antenna up there to see what kind of difference in dropouts that makes.

BuckNut

03-09-05, 01:43 PM

In relation to attenutaion from trees I found the following from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/factsheets/docs/reception_trees.pdf

Thought it might be interesting.

Scott

browerjs

03-09-05, 02:12 PM

I too use a silver sensor, and have it placed right on top of my TV. I have found a sweet spot however where i can pick up all dayton locals w/o any drop outs. The strange thing about this sweetspot is that it actually points NE (away from the towers) from Beavercreek Township. I can not figure it out but this is the only way i can get the silver sensor to pick up all Dayton channels. If i do point it towards the towers, i see the same thing you are seeing with dropouts between channels. In fact some channels i can't seem to pick up at all until i start pointing more eastardly.

BuckNut

03-09-05, 02:15 PM

That is interesting because I have noticed with 7-1, which I believe is actually UHF channel 40, if I turn the antenna and point it backwards (180 degrees) away from the towers I often get fewer dropouts.

Nitewatchman

03-09-05, 02:34 PM

WHIO-DT transmits on UHF channel 41 -- Remaps to 7-x. WRCX-LP 40 , a Dayton low power analog station uses channel 40.

Interesting report from BBC. However, In terms of how much of an issue signal attenuation by trees, or how much of a "multipath issue" trees actually are, I think it's not much of an issue as compared to having antenna indoors, or the effects of terrain issues/etc -- as the report suggests however, the higher the frequency,(channel) especially the high UHF TV channels, the more pronounced the "effect" .... There was a study I had seen which gave specific figures attenuation/frequency wise in a forested area, but I was unable to dig it up.

Originally posted by BuckNut
I have observed (and I put no scientific stock in what I say whatsoever) that my reception tends to be much worse at times when it is windy outside. It was windy on Monday night and I suffered from dropouts on all channels before moving the antenna outside. This makes no sense to me. The wind itself should not attenuate the signal much in any way, and I refuse to believe there are objects in between me and the transmitters that move so much in the wind as to significantly block my line of sight. Is there any kind of other explanation here?

When the wind blows, it blows the tree limbs around, thus changing the multipath conditions. Multipath echoes which the receiver can't correct for is just seen as "noise", you must have 15.9db signal noise ratio at all times to achieve perfect DTV reception. Now, trees/leaves in the signal path attenuate the signal very slightly(and the higher the frequency involved the greater the effect), but(except perhaps certian types of "needles" on conifiers) they aren't an an "source" of multipath reflections, but having the limbs blowing around does change the dynamic multipath conditions -- A plane flying through the signal path not only changes the conditions, but also can actually be a "source" of dynamic multipath as portions of the signal reflect off the aircraft -- this causes a "fluttery" looking ghosting effect on analog stations.

Originally posted by BuckNut

Now, I understand that by using an indoor antenna I am probably attenuating the signal by at least 3db or 50% and that by placing it outside I am giving myself a good advantage.

It's more of an advantage than 3db. It varies, but a good rule of thumb is that placing antenna indoors attenuates signals by about 15~20db - The Silver sensor only has about 4.5db gain. Placing indoor antenna near a window facing the towers is often a good spot. DB scale is "logarhytmic". It is true that About 3.5db(which is about the insertion loss of a 2 way spltter, if a station doubles the amount of power it's sending, that's only about 3.5db or so as well) is 1/2 of the signal you were getting, however if you are in a strong signal area one should be getting much more signal than that, and 3db or so isn't "really" all that much -- unless you are in a fringe area where every little bit helps. I can add as much as 40+db of extra attentation in the feedline before the "signal quality readings" from my receiver actually even start to drop for Most Dayton/Cincinnati stations.

Placing antenna indoors also usually increases multipath difficulties. The amount of "signal strength" you get from a station really isn't going to change much, but multipath conditions are another story.

Originally posted by BuckNut

I didn't think that I was in much of a valley or anything that would limit my reception capabilities. Am I wrong about that?

I think you are correct. Nearby terrain blockage issues can be an especially difficult issue, as much so as if one were in a "fringe area" with all flat ground, and say 70 miles+ away from Dayton towers ...

Originally posted by BuckNut

Now for a few more details...

Unfortunately, the Samsung TS360 has a notoriously inaccurate and useless signal meter that is well documented elsewhere in these forums, so I have no way of getting even a good relative reading for signal strength between channels. Some possible explanations have been offered that may or may not have any credence to them.

I can't speak specifically about the TS360's signal meter, however none of the "signal meters" I have seen on STB's actually measure "signal strength" It's more of a "Signal quality" reading. Hauppage WIN-TV-D PC card does offer a relevant indication of S/N and AGC readings. Multipath and any interference issues can change the "Readings" on any STB "signal meter" I have as much as anything else, and a high reading can even result with a relatively weak signal just over the threshold(15.9db s/n) required for perfect DTV reception, likewise, a low reading can result if a strong signal but plaged with "noise" from interference or multipath. I don't think You are going to be able to seperate "signal strentgh", Multipath, and "interference" issues or find out what is causing your problems by looking at the meter.

In the Following quote/exceprt from page 3, pargaraph 1 of document available from ATSC site entitled : "Preliminary DTV Field Test Results And Their Effects on VSB Receiver Design" there is a bit of an explanation concerning HOW "signal meters" can be implemented on receivers. I have put in bold the most "significant" comment. I suspect this is exactly how many, if not most current receiver's signal meters are implemented:

:quote

..... Each data segment carries only one 188-byte MPEG-transport data packet, with the MPEG sync byte (47 hex) being replaced at the transmitter with the 4-symbol binary segment sync. The MPEG data sync is reinserted at the receiver output for subsequent processing in the receiver’s MPEG transport decoder. The one-segment long binary frame sync not only
provides pseudo-random number sequences (PN) for data frame synchronization, but can also be used as a training signal for
the receiver’s equalizer and as a means to measure received signal quality.

:end quote

Originally posted by BuckNut

1) All my equipment including amp, STB, and HTPC sits in the same location and within a few feet of where the antenna normally rests. Could I have some sort of interference issue going on?

2) Someone suggested that maybe the power wiring in my house was not well shielded and causing me problems. I think this seems like a long shot.

3) The TS360's OTA tuner is just not very sensitive and needs to be given every advantage to receive a signal without dropouts.

I expect you are probably having more of an issue with multipath rather than anything else, and that getting the antenna outdoors and aimed properly is going to help greatly but hard to say in any sort of "definitive" fashion without trying it. Finding a "sweet spot" for good reception from the antenna, even outdoors is often a good idea before mounting it permanently. I wouldn't think Interference issues from electrical system or RFI from your gear is not very likely to cause problems on UHF frequencies all the Dayton digitals(UHF 18, 30, 41, 50, 51, 58) are operating on. VHF, lo-VHF especially may be another story.

Right now, and until analog shut-off you have a way to "diagnose" reception issues by checking your analog reception, as what is causing the problem will show up right on the screen, which isn't the case with digital. Ghosting on analogs= Multipath. "snowy signals"= weak signals. Interference shows up in a variety of ways on analog stations. What your analog reception of Dayton UHF analogs 16,22, 26 40, 45 is like should tell you a lot about how "good" your DTV(ATSC) signals actually are, although keep in mind multipath and receiver "selectivity"(when stations on 1st adjacent channels/etc can be an issue), and some co-channel adjacent channel interferences issues are going to be "frequency specific" ... You really shouldn't be having any co-channel/adjacent-channel interference issues, and overload/intermodulation distortion shouldn't be an issue since you aren't using a preamp(which can be overloaded by strong signals and can in some cases can "hurt" more than they help).

You can find all sorts of great info on what sort of interference causes what(including screenshots of examples) in the interference section at below link, you can also finds all sorts of great info on antennas+reception at below link :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Originally posted by BuckNut

I have read many reports of people using these antennas 30 or 40 miles away from transmitters with no problems. I suppose it is possible those people have better lines of sight or are on a hill or something.

I'm down in a small, steep, very forested valley here(the trees start as close as 15 feet from my antenna, my antenna is as much as 60feet LOWER than the ground as close as 400 feet away in some directions) and I *do* need more antenna than would be the case if I was on flat ground. However, I have no problems with reception of Cincinnati/Dayton stations 12~39 miles distant. There are no stations between 39~65 miles distant, but the coverage area of most stations in the area are 55~65 miles or so ... "significant" terrain issues however can be a problem even quite close to the transmitter if one is say, at the bottom of a big hill that is in between the transmitting and receiving location ... Trees/Leaves are much, much less of an issue ... They do atteunate signals a bit, but not to a great degree -- and the higher the frequency, the more of an issue it is ...

Keep in mind -- all, or some the factors that affect reception could be an issue for you in "combination", and can make getting reception with indoor antenna especially difficult. For instance A little more signal, and your receiver might be able to compensate for multipath to the point where you don't get dropouts. A little less multipath(putting a antenna with good directivity outdoors+with "proper" aiming) may help you out as well, even if the signal were still "weak" .... Some receviers(especially those using new 5th generation designs which have yet to make it to the shelves)are better at handling multipath than others, and some receivers may be better selectivity wise.

BuckNut

03-09-05, 03:07 PM

Jeff,

Thanks for the detailed reply to my post and questions. As always, you are most informative. When I get home tonight I will tune to some analog UHF channels and see if I can determine whether I am getting mulipath or weak signal issues or both. IIRC the few times I have tunes to the analog signals they boomed in quite well.

The website you referred me to I have visited before but not in enough detail. I will go do some more reading.

It is true that About 3.5db(which is about the insertion loss of a 2 way splitter, if a station doubles the amount of power it's sending, that's only about 3.5db or so as well) is 1/2 of the signal you were getting

I don't know what I was smoking here... I knew that splitting the signal was about 3db but not sure how/why I though that applied to indoor/outdoor placement of an antenna. That brings me to another question someone may now. How much loss is there when using a coax coupler? How about an A/B switch? I would guess loss for the A/B switch would be similar to a splitter but a little more?

Scott

Nitewatchman

03-09-05, 04:24 PM

Insertion loss from A/B switch should be very low -- The cheap "slide switch" one I'm using is about .5db insertion loss or less ....

100FT of RG6 is about 5db of signal loss on Hi-UHF frequencies ... A mast mount preamp can compensate for quite a bit of "coax run" and loss from splitters/etc, as well as reducing the overall "noise figure" of the system. The problem with preamps though is that they can be overloaded by strong signals and produce extra "noise" on the channels you are trying to receive -- so sometimes they can do better and sometimes worse, unless you can selectively "trap out" some of the stronger signals before they reach the preamp(tuneable channel traps are available, but the "most effective" ones are also quite expensive) ... Hard to say, but I'd think you should be OK at 15 miles with a good mast mount preamp -- I've heard CM7777 doesn't overload very easily, which is good, and I'd think it would probably work for you, but 15 miles is still awfully close, if it turns out to be "too much", you might want to try something with a little less "gain" than CM7777, in the range of 15~20db gain, 2~4db Noise figure ... A "medium gain" preamp such as Blonder-Tongue "Suburban series Galaxy III" might be a good choice if CM7777 is too much ...

In other words, a preamp is probably an excellent idea for you for Cincy/Columbus stations, but not so great of an idea for Dayton ...

BuckNut

03-09-05, 04:32 PM

That is pretty much the conclusion I had come to as well, I was certain that I would need a preamp for Columbus and Cincy, but worried that I might overload it when tuning in Dayton. Incidentally the channelmaster preamp you list is the one I had planned on ordering.

I had also considered ordering the preamp before the antenna and hooking it to my Silver Sensor inside to try to reduce dropouts, but haven't yet.

Nitewatchman

03-09-05, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by BuckNut
Incidentally the channelmaster preamp you list is the one I had planned on ordering.

LOL, I'd thought I'd read in your first post today you were getting a CM7777, I must have ESP for the day or something ;)

Also keep in mind-- CM4228 is a fine UHF antenna, and can work to some extent on Hi-VHF ch 7-13 in relatively strong signal areas ... However, from your distance from Columbus/Cincinnati, I'd guess it probably won't do the trick for WCPO-DT(ABC HD Cincinnati) which transmits on VHF 10, and WSYX-DT(ABC HD Columbus) which transmits on VHF 13. So, at some point you might want to add a VHF antenna, and a CM7777 or another preamp with sepeerate VHF/UHF inputs might be a good choice for that reason as well. Winegard makes a nice, VHF hi-band(covers ch 7-13) antenna which is much smaller than antennas made to cover VHF channels 2-13.

At this point in the Channel election/channel repacking process which is currently underway, After analog shut off, WSYX-DT wants to move to UHF, WBNS-DT(CBS HD columbus currently on 21) wants to move to VHF 10(not a very good idea IMO, it's bad enough as is with WCPO-DT and WBNS analog on 10), and WKRC-DT(CBS Hd Cincinnati currently on 31) wants to move to VHF 12 .... Some of that might change before the entire channel election/repacking process is over in late 2006, and it's hard to say if at any point in the future if we'll have ANY stations in the area on Lo-VHF(ch 2-6), but I think you can pretty much count on some stations being on Hi-VHF 7-13 -- but probably not in Dayton ... At this point, it looks like there is a very good chance Dayton will be a UHF only market after analog shut off ... but then again, hard to say where the Low power digitals will end up on the dial ...

BuckNut

03-09-05, 07:48 PM

Well I did some testing this evening. When I got home I checked the reception of the analog channels with the silver sensor in its current location. All of the UHF analogs including 16, 22, 26, and 45 seemed to come in fairly well. They were mostly absent of ghosting though some did exhibit a small amount of snow. The image appeared to be fairly "stable" as in there was no ghosting that would come and go...

I then used a brand new piece of RG6 and ran the antenna up to the second floor. The first place I put the antenna upstairs seemed to make matters worse instead of better. Even though I had gained 10 feet in elevation, this particular spot gave me dropouts on 2 digital channels. The analog channels, especially 16 exhibited a lot of snow.

I then moved the antenna to another spot and pulled in all the digitals without dropouts and the UHF analogs all looked pretty good. I guess so far I have found a "sweet spot". Time will tell how long that location holds up.

I had an older, cheap VHF/UHF antenna sitting around ans out of curiosity I hooked it up in the same location as the silver sensor upstairs. I could not even receive two of the digital stations initially and the analog channels all looked significantly worse, especially with ghosting. After a little tweaking, most of the channels came in but it always seemed like there was one or two with dropouts at any given time. I was a little surprised to see how much better the UHF analog channels looked on the silver sensor than the cheap combo antenna. I guess that is at least a little proof of the quality of the silver sensor.

In relation to some channels being on Hi-VHF... I was fully prepared to get and install a good outdoor VHF antenna in the future if necessary. I am not too interested in getting WCPO until they fix their 1280X360 problem. I might be interested in trying to pull in WSYX if WKEF pulls another New Years Day debacle. One of the stations I definitely want to try to pull in is WBNS, so I can get away from the a/v sync issues and bandwidth starvation from WHIO. So if WBNS moves from 21 to 10 in the future that would motivate to purchase a Hi-VHF antenna.

Nitewatchman

03-11-05, 11:11 AM

Just read in the today's paper that Time Warner is combining it's Cincinnati and Dayton Divisions. The article is also here, but I believe requires registration to view it :

http://www.daytondailynews.com/movies/content/business/daily/0311timewarner.html

hall

03-11-05, 11:44 AM

This one might be free:

http://dayton.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2005/03/07/daily20.html

dusterscott

03-13-05, 08:06 PM

Audio and video is out of sync tonight on CBS for me. Is anyone else having the same problem? When I switch to the Cincinnati channel there are no problems.

Vader

03-13-05, 08:11 PM

I can't remember WHIO ever really being completely in sync.

browerjs

03-14-05, 04:40 PM

Has anyone had an ISF calibration performed recently on a RPTV? If so can you recommend someone, how much did it cost? I adjusted my overscan on my TV some time ago but i was never able to get the convergence set so that I didn't have the "speedbump" effect on ticker type graphics on the top and bottom of the display. I'm finally to the point where i'm willing to shell out the $$$ to get the ISF calibration done.

BuckNut

03-14-05, 05:09 PM

I have never had it done, but a couple quick questions. Is your RPTV CRT based? If so, it has been my experience that with tube based sets there are usually some service menu settings that you can use to tweak geometry problems. However, as was the case with my 32" Sony CRT, the problems could never be fully tweaked out and such may be the case for you. I don't know that an ISF tech would be able to fully get rid of that either. Have you looked on the internet to see if you can find access to the service menu? If your set is not CRT based I have no idea what might need to be done. Hopefully somebody here will be able to comment with a little more knowledge.

gindie

03-14-05, 06:33 PM

I've never had it done, but here is the listing for all Ohio ISF techs:

http://www.imagingscience.com/isf_search.cfm?State=OH&Country=none&dlr_status=CAL

browerjs

03-15-05, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by BuckNut
I have never had it done, but a couple quick questions. Is your RPTV CRT based? If so, it has been my experience that with tube based sets there are usually some service menu settings that you can use to tweak geometry problems. However, as was the case with my 32" Sony CRT, the problems could never be fully tweaked out and such may be the case for you. I don't know that an ISF tech would be able to fully get rid of that either. Have you looked on the internet to see if you can find access to the service menu? If your set is not CRT based I have no idea what might need to be done. Hopefully somebody here will be able to comment with a little more knowledge.

I have been inside the service menu many times. Thats how i screwed it up in the first place. Well you can't actually call it screwing it up considering i'd rather be able to see the entire HD image and have small speed bumps then have things cut off and not have them.

1450kHz

03-15-05, 12:04 PM

It looks like WBNS will multicast the NCAA regional feeds again this year.

http://www.wbns10tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3047502

HJustin

03-15-05, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by browerjs
Has anyone had an ISF calibration performed recently on a RPTV? If so can you recommend someone, how much did it cost? I adjusted my overscan on my TV some time ago but i was never able to get the convergence set so that I didn't have the "speedbump" effect on ticker type graphics on the top and bottom of the display. I'm finally to the point where i'm willing to shell out the $$$ to get the ISF calibration done.

Mel's here in the Dayton area and has done good work for me. More info here: http://www.davlynhtc.com

J

browerjs

03-15-05, 04:30 PM

http://www.whiotv.com/news/4283303/detail.html

Thursday's NCAA Games On CBS, WHIO-TV

POSTED: 3:01 pm EST March 14, 2005
UPDATED: 4:05 pm EST March 15, 2005
DAYTON, Ohio -- Here are the games that CBS and WHIO-TV will be airing on Thursday for the NCAA Basketball Tournament.

12:20 p.m. tip -- Kentucky vs Eastern Kentucky
2:40 p.m. tip – Cincinnati vs. Iowa (Indianapolis II)
7:10 p.m. tip – Texas vs. Nevada (Indianapolis III)
9:30 p.m. Tip – Illinois vs. Farleigh Dickinson (Indianapolis IV)

HDTV games we will carry on our HDTV channel only: (Channel 41 -- over the air) & (Channel 707 -- Time Warner Cable High Definition)

12:25 p.m. tip – Alabama vs. Wisconsin-Milwaukee (Cleveland I)
2:45 p.m. tip – Boston College vs. Pennsylvania (Cleveland II)
7:10 p.m. tip – Wake Forest vs. Chattanooga (Cleveland III)
9:30 p.m. tip -- West Virginia vs. Creighton

If you are a subscriber to Time Warner Cable and have a digital cable box and would like to watch the games in High-Definition, you must take your digital cable box, with the remote, to Time Warner and exchange it for a High-Definition box. Officials at Time Warner Cable said there is not a charge for the exchange.

BuckNut

03-15-05, 04:31 PM

WHIO just announced for Thursday they will carry 4 SD games and 4 different HD games on 7-1 for the NCAA tourney. I am not sure if that means they will put the same game on 7-2 as the analog channel or not.

Here is the link:

http://www.whiotv.com/news/4283303/detail.html

Scott

jenkinswoody

03-16-05, 05:01 PM

Why does Columbus CBS multicast, but Dayton does not? Is it regional advertising? Is it lack of needed equipmet? Not bitching, just curious. Im just thankful that the SD and HD feeds are different!:)

Rakesh.S

03-16-05, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by BuckNut
WHIO just announced for Thursday they will carry 4 SD games and 4 different HD games on 7-1 for the NCAA tourney. I am not sure if that means they will put the same game on 7-2 as the analog channel or not.

Here is the link:

http://www.whiotv.com/news/4283303/detail.html

Scott

a decent use of the subchannel..now if they could grow a brain and shut it off at other times

lakeboy

03-16-05, 09:06 PM

I do believe 7-2 will carry the analog..

Tim

Nitewatchman

03-17-05, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
a decent use of the subchannel..now if they could grow a brain and shut it off at other times

I'd just as soon the SD subchannel be gone now as well, since the FCC dropped the analog simulcast requirement completely. Given the MPEGII compression artifacts, SD for UK/EKU game currently looks better on the analog anyway.

Anyway, it's better than what WKRC is doing, at least presently. At least we are getting a good amount of HD for the tourney from WHIO ...

Getting lots of audio(it's DD 5.1 BTW) dropouts so far during the HD bama game from WHIO-DT currently, however. Its happening during the national commercial breaks as well.

Rakesh.S

03-17-05, 12:55 PM

well if they're carrying the same thing on both digital channels, then that just blows..

hd-dvd can't get here soon enough..I can quit watching tv shows during the season

Nitewatchman

03-17-05, 02:05 PM

Can only look in occasionally but for at least the last 10 minutes There must be some sort of mixup at WHIO ... The UW-Mil/bama game is currently running on HD/SD digital and analog .... WKRC still has EKU/UK ...

Update: of course, the very second I posted the above, at ~14:06 WHIO SD digital and analog went back to UK game .... LOL ... BTW, They seem to have fixed the audio dropout problem on the HD at this point as well ...

1450kHz

03-17-05, 04:01 PM

No TV at my desk so all I have is Westwood One radio feeds via Sirius Satellite.

Paul210

03-17-05, 04:09 PM

Brought an extra OTA receiver to work--hooked it to the dlp and some computer speakers--instant theater. What a hit! :)

Vader

03-17-05, 08:23 PM

The audio sync is way off tonight on WHIO for me. Anyone else experiencing this? It seems the be the norm for them.

Nitewatchman

03-17-05, 08:57 PM

Originally posted by Vader
Anyone else experiencing this?

Yes

dusterscott

03-17-05, 09:10 PM

Yes, I have the same problem.

dc10forlife

03-17-05, 10:27 PM

Despite the ever prsent lip-sync problem you have got to give WHIO props for multicasting the games. Here is the schedule for Friday:

http://www.whiotv.com/sports/4293326/detail.html

-- Here are the games that CBS and WHIO-TV will be airing on Friday for the NCAA Basketball Tournament.

12:25 p.m. Tip -- Florida vs. Ohio
2:45 p.m. Tip -- Villanova vs. New Mexico
7:10 p.m. Tip -- Louisville vs. LA Lafayette
9:30 p.m. Tip -- Georgia Tech vs. George Washington

HDTV games we will carry on our HDTV channel only: (Channel 41 -- over the air) & (Channel 707 -- Time Warner Cable High Definition)

12:15 p.m. Tip -- Charlotte vs. NC State (Worcester I)
2:35 p.m. Tip -- UCONN vs. UCF (Worcester II)
7:10 p.m. Tip -- Louisville vs. LA Lafayette (Nashville III)
9:30 p.m. Tip -- Michigan State vs. Old Dominion (Worcester IV)

Nitewatchman

03-17-05, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by dc10forlife
Despite the ever prsent lip-sync problem you have got to give WHIO props for multicasting the games.

Absolutely. Except that I'd rather they not compromise HD PQ and drop the SD subchannel and just run the different SD game on the analog ....

It's not bothering me too much during a BB game, either. I just imagine that the microphone is about a tenth of a mile or so away so my brain can figure out what's going on when the ball hits the floor slightly before the sound occurs <g>

Before they added the gear to do DD 5.1 last fall I don't recall WHIO-DT having much of a A/V sync problem on their HD subchannel - at least not very often -- And I also don't recall the audio levels being as high as it has been since they added the new audio gear ...

dc10forlife

03-18-05, 06:14 PM

For Saturday March 19

http://www.whiotv.com/sports/4298579/detail.html

Here are the games that CBS and WHIO-TV will be airing on Saturday for the NCAA Basketball Tournament.

1:10 p.m. Tip -- Gonzaga vs. Texas Tech
3:40 p.m. Tip -- Oklahoma vs. Utah
5:40 p.m. Tip -- Illinois vs. Nevada
8:10 p.m. Tip -- Kentucky vs. Cincinnati

HDTV games we will carry on our HDTV channel only: (Channel 41 -- over the air) & (Channel 707 -- Time Warner Cable High Definition)

1:10 p.m. Tip -- Gonzaga vs. Texas Tech
3:40 p.m. Tip -- Oklahoma vs. Utah
5:30 p.m. Tip -- Boston College vs. Wisconsin-Milwaukee
8:10 p.m. Tip -- Kentucky vs. Cincinnati

Interesting since UC v UK is not in HD. Wake v. West Virginia apparently will not air.

browerjs

03-19-05, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by dc10forlife
Interesting since UC v UK is not in HD. Wake v. West Virginia apparently will not air.

I'd guess most in this area won't really care about this, since all eyes will be tuned to UC/UK. Go Bearcats!!!

dc10forlife

03-19-05, 10:19 AM

Posted by bgall:

NCAA Second Round HD/SD Viewing Guide

Saturday March 19, 2005

1:10 pm Texas Tech #6 vs. Gonzaga #3 HD

3:20 pm Pacific #8 vs. Washington #1
3:40 pm Utah #6 vs. Oklahoma #3 HD

5:30 pm Wis.-Milwaukee #12 vs. Boston College #4 HD
5:40 pm Nevada #9 vs. Illinois #1
5:50 pm UAB #11 vs. Arizona #3

8:00 pm West Virginia #7 vs. Wake Forest #2 HD
8:10 pm Cincinnati #7 vs. Kentucky #2

Sunday March 20, 2005

12:10 pm North Carolina State #10 vs. Connecticut #2 HD

2:15 pm Villanova #5 vs. Florida #4 HD
2:20 pm Southern Ill. #7 vs. Oklahoma St. #2
2:30 pm Iowa St. #9 vs. North Carolina #1
2:40 pm Vermont #13 vs. Michigan State #5 HD

4:45 pm Georgia Tech #5 vs. Louisville #4 HD
4:50 pm Bucknell #14 vs. Wisconsin #6
5:00 pm Mississippi St. #9 vs. Duke #1

buckeye1010

03-19-05, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by browerjs
Has anyone had an ISF calibration performed recently on a RPTV?

About a year ago, Chad Billheimer ISF'd my 65" Mitsubishi RPTV. I beleive it was $350. Was it worth it? In one word: YES! Made a noticable improvement on all inputs. My wife even thinks it was good money spent! Chad has more patience and desire to do things right than anyone I've ever met. He's also one heck of a nice guy. Highly recommended. Here's Chad's website: http://www.hdtvbychadb.com

onulaw76

03-20-05, 12:29 PM

For those of you who do not like color commentators and talking heads when you are watching sports - tune in to the NCAA tourney right now on CBS- They appear to be having some difficulty getting their audio right. At first I found it annoying, but now it is kinda nice - just watching the games with no blabbering... Enjoy!

EDIT: Oh well, it was fun while it lasted... back to the blah, blah, blahs...

BuckNut

03-23-05, 03:16 PM

I recently sent an email to WHIO in regard to their HDTV problems. Frankly, I did not expect a reply but almost two weeks later I did in fact receive a reply. I am posting it here because I thought it might be of interest. I remember there was some discussion in the past as to whether WHIO was using their subchannel to feed some cable head ends and he mentions it.

I wrote:

Sirs:

I stumbled across the following webpage on whiotv.com:

http://www.whiotv.com/station/4175305/detail.html

There is a small section and a link touting it on the front page of the website. I have had HDTV for about 1 year now and find it ironic that you tout the HDTV side of things and yet have been unable or unwilling to correct the audio/video sync issue that has plagued network primetime programming for a long time. The sync of audio to video is sometimes so bad that it renders the program unwatchable. I also find it ironic that the HDTV is touted when you insist on running a useless sub channel on 7-2 that does nothing but show exactly what is on 7-1 and eat up bandwidth. The end result is a picture, especially during sporting events, that shows all kinds of artifacts and macro blocking because you refuse to remove the useless sub channel. I live in Fairborn and am planning on erecting an antenna on the roof in the near future so I can pull in WBNS from Columbus or WKRC from Cincinnati to avoid these two problems.

Is there some sort of explanation as to why the audio/video sync issue has not been resolved in more than a year? Also, what is the point of running the sub channel on 7-2?

I love HDTV and appreciate the fact that you offer it at all, but why not do it right?

I respectfully look forward to your reply.

Scott

Their Reply:

Thank you for expressing your concerns about the audio/video synchronization problems on our HD channel. We have been working with several manufacturers over the last several months to try to correct the problem. One of the suppliers seems to have finally come up with the solution to the problem. Hopefully the problem has been corrected permanently. Please let me know if the problem re-appears. I have been watching the signal to verify the changes that were made.
As far as the issue with digital sub-channels ( 7.2 ), we are working with several outlying cable companies to make changes. They currently are using this signal to receive Channel 7 for re-transmission on their cable system. We are attempting to move them to 7.1. Once this is done we plan on making some changes. There is no target date for these changes to take place.

Please feel free to contact me about any problems or questions.

Has anyone noticed the a/v sync issue being fixed? I know it wasn't fixed as of Sunday.

Scott

Paul210

03-23-05, 03:20 PM

The past two nights, WHIO-DT audio/video has been almost perfectly in sync. I was afraid to say anything for fear of jinxing it.

Vader

03-23-05, 06:44 PM

Good to hear they are atleast trying. I haven't watched WHIO in the past few days, I'll have to check it out tonight.

Paul210

03-23-05, 07:23 PM

Originally posted by Vader
Good to hear they are atleast trying. I haven't watched WHIO in the past few days, I'll have to check it out tonight.

I know we all would like to see the sub dropped but I really think the pq of the main channel is better than it used to be. I don't notice the compression artifacts as much. I know that WKRC-DT looks better, but WHIO does have DD 5.1.--if it stays in sync.

Now, what about the dropped frames on WKEF-DT? Hasn't this been going on long enough that they should have figured it out?

WDTN's useless sub has had almost no audio for months, not that anybody ever watches it.

HangEmHi

03-23-05, 08:46 PM

Back about February 28, someone posted about WKEF's problems and that they were working on it. Anyone spoke to them lately? It's so tiresome to have an HD channel on TWC that is either not HD or is unwatchable with video/audio dropouts.

Sigh.

Vader

03-24-05, 08:48 PM

WHIO has been dead on in sync since last night! :D Hopefully it's permanently fixed!

Nitewatchman

03-24-05, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by Paul210

Now, what about the dropped frames on WKEF-DT? Hasn't this been going on long enough that they should have figured it out?

WDTN's useless sub has had almost no audio for months, not that anybody ever watches it.

On WDTN SD subchannel audio ... I've been getting it just fine all along ... They did change their PSIP around in January, maybe if you do a rescan on your receiver that might fix it ....

I contacted WKEF-DT about the Dropped frames issue affecting some receivers back when it started occuring during ABC HD sourced from film or, I assume 1080p/24p source material ... Heard nothing back from them, which hasn't been unusual the past 8 months or so ... Of course, I've been seeing the same thing during some non-Fox programming on WRGT-DT since they started sending 720p last year and they haven't been able to fix that either ...

Probably wouldn't hurt if everyone seeing the issue contacted them about it, probably a good idea to tell them which receiver you're getting the problem on(it doesn't happen on my RCA DTC-100, but does happen on my Zenith HDV420) ....

When WCPO-DT had this problem a little over a month ago, it took them about a week or so to fix it ... It took a loong loong time for WSYX-DT to fix their problem with this same issue, many people complained about it on the HDcolumbus board, and just as many people(with receivers that weren't affected) thought the people who were complaining were crazy ;) ....

Of course, WKEF-DT missed HD for Lost and a good bit of Alias last night ... I didn't see any video freezes during the portion of Alias I watched that they DID have in HD, not that that says anything ...

koach

03-25-05, 07:59 AM

Any word on TWC carrying the WB or NBC in HD?

APorter

03-25-05, 10:31 AM

I finally had an OTA installed down here in Cincinnati and I can pick up the Dayton stations. As a UD grad I looking forward to next basketball season and watching the Flyers on WHIO. Is there a list in this thread of the Dayton stations broadcasting 5.1 audio?

Nitewatchman

03-25-05, 10:41 AM

Aporter,
The Dayton Stations doing DD 5.1 are:

WHIO-DT 41 (remaps to 7-x) - CBS HD
WDTN-DT 50 (remaps to 2-x) - NBC HD
WRGT-DT 30 (remaps to 45-1) - FOX HD
WBDT-DT 18 (remaps to 26-1) - WB HD

--------------------------------

The other two non-DD 5.1 Dayton DTV stations are:

WPTD-DT 58 (remaps to 16-x) PBS HD Dayton did send DD 5.1 during a HD soundstage once in Summer 2003, but that's the only time I've noticed -- One of their people told us they would be testing it at the time ... So they must have some sort of capablility to do it ...

WKEF-DT 51 (remaps to 22-1) ABC HD Dayton does not have DD 5.1 capability ...

You can also find this info here(stations in Green are DD 5.1) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=422073&pagenumber=1

Paul210

03-26-05, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
On WDTN SD subchannel audio ... I've been getting it just fine all along ... They did change their PSIP around in January, maybe if you do a rescan on your receiver that might fix it ....

Did a rescan but still no audio on the SD sub. It must have something to do with the fact I'm using digital optical output for the audio. All the other channels are fine. It's not a big deal since I seldom watch the sd sub--only when I'm too lazy to walk over to the box to switch the format to eliminate the side bars.

Paul

Nitewatchman

03-26-05, 07:43 PM

Paul,

don't know if this helps you out of not, but I'm using Digital audio output from DTC-100 and get the audio from WDTN SD sub just fine, but I'm using analog audio out from the HDV420 so can't tell you what's going on with its digital audio out ...

bruschi88

03-29-05, 10:16 PM

Hello,
I have an Uncle in the Xenia area, about 3mi. S. close to USR. 68. He used to receive good Cincy and Dayton reception at a fixed antenna location for analogs. A storm destroyed his tower and antennas about a year ago.

What type antenna would be good for Cincy and Dayton digitals for his location?

Thanks,

Bruce

Nitewatchman

03-31-05, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by bruschi88
What type antenna would be good for Cincy and Dayton digitals for his location?

Generally speaking what works well for reasonably ghost+snow free analog reception from his location will work well for getting good digital reception as well.

With a Decent, outdoor directional Hi-Gain VHF/UHF (WCPO-DT Cincinnati is on hi-VHF band channel 10, WSYX-DT Columbus is on Hi-VHF band channel 13 - The rest of the Digitals in the area are currently on UHF) antenna setup(a good low noise preamp is probably a good idea for his location as well) and rotor, He might have some luck with Columbus stations well.

You can go here+punch in his address and perhaps get a better idea of what stations(digital and analog) he can expect to receive and the type of antenna he may need:

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx

bruschi88

03-31-05, 10:50 AM

Thank you much!

Paul210

03-31-05, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by bruschi88
What type antenna would be good for Cincy and Dayton digitals for his location?

In Xenia, something VERY wind resistant!! :D

mlbUC

04-05-05, 09:16 PM

TWC has apparently put up some test channels, 901-905. Anybody know what these are for?

Shallow70

04-05-05, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by mlbUC
TWC has apparently put up some test channels, 901-905. Anybody know what these are for?

I'm curious about this, anyone aware of the availability of the 8300 HD DVR boxes, and any info on the WB in HD. Thanks!

1450kHz

04-06-05, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by Shallow70
I'm curious about this, anyone aware of the availability of the 8300 HD DVR boxes, and any info on the WB in HD. Thanks!

Anyone know what RF slot they map to? I can go snooping with my Fusion3 card.

hall

04-06-05, 08:24 AM

I saw those test channels last night myself. I'm sure they've got numerous ones like this and they just haven't "hidden" them from the guide view. There's a Time-Warner employee channel on ch 500, for example, and just like 702 (WDTN) and 726 (WB) showed up for a while...

I've heard nothing on the 8300HD boxes myself. As far as I know, they're "late" as they were expecting them at the end of Feb or early March.

koach

04-06-05, 08:34 AM

I've heard nothing on the 8300HD boxes myself. As far as I know, they're "late" as they were expecting them at the end of Feb or early March.

I tried to get one in the end of february, and the office said they had them in, but were still in employee testing. I'm going to call again soon to see if they have any available yet.

1450kHz

04-07-05, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by hall
I saw those test channels last night myself. I'm sure they've got numerous ones like this and they just haven't "hidden" them from the guide view. There's a Time-Warner employee channel on ch 500, for example, and just like 702 (WDTN) and 726 (WB) showed up for a while...

I've heard nothing on the 8300HD boxes myself. As far as I know, they're "late" as they were expecting them at the end of Feb or early March.

Those are either encrypted or blank, as I'm not getting any video outside of the normal stuff right now. (Remember that I have a PC card tuner and can only see the "in the clear" stuff).

browerjs

04-07-05, 11:02 AM

Anyone gonna be around at 4PM to report whether or not WHIO-DT will be passing through the Masters in HD (Assuming the storms pass through Augusta by then)? I believe they did pass through the USA coverage last year on thurs/fri, hopefully they won't drop the ball this year. I'll either be really happy or really pissed tonight at 5 when i get home.

browerjs

04-07-05, 05:03 PM

I'll answer my own question since i'm home now :) WHIO-DT does have the masters up in HD. Much better then listening to it over the net at work.

Also it looks like WHIO-DT has a new bug, first time i've seen it anyways

Paul210

04-07-05, 06:58 PM

WHIO has quite a few bugs.

Rakesh.S

04-07-05, 07:03 PM

That bug is atrocious..I'm glad I don't watch golf

My goodness, can they make it any brighter?

mlbUC

04-11-05, 09:27 AM

This weekend was a perfect example of how bitstarved WHIO-DT is. I saw tons of artifacts every day, with Sunday being the most obvious (Tigers red shirt on the green background). I really wish WHIO is able to drop that subchannel soon, because it is awfull how bad their HD looks.

hall

04-11-05, 10:14 AM

I watched bits of The Masters tournament off and on and didn't think it was a "bitstarved" issue but instead some shots were up-converted from SD to HD. Many shots were great while others were noticably less great. Why I suspected they were up-converts though is because the on-screen graphics looked really crisp and clear (like a PC).

BuckNut

04-11-05, 10:18 AM

I am going to agree with mlbUC here... It was easy to tell when the cameras were not HD, but were upcoverted widescreen SD. That was clearly not the issue. The half hour or so I tuned in yersterday, it was VERY obvious the broadcast was bitstarved. It was most apparent on closer-up shots when there was a lot of movement. There was a lot of blocking and artifacts. I was fairly surprised at how badly it looked overall as well.

At least with golf, there is generally so little movement that you can enjoy the nice HD view 95% of the time.

1450kHz

04-11-05, 12:43 PM

browerjs

04-11-05, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by BuckNut
I am going to agree with mlbUC here... It was easy to tell when the cameras were not HD, but were upcoverted widescreen SD. That was clearly not the issue. The half hour or so I tuned in yersterday, it was VERY obvious the broadcast was bitstarved. It was most apparent on closer-up shots when there was a lot of movement. There was a lot of blocking and artifacts. I was fairly surprised at how badly it looked overall as well.

At least with golf, there is generally so little movement that you can enjoy the nice HD view 95% of the time.

Agreed 100%, of the 13+ hours I watched from Thurs-Sun, the HD shots from the greens that tracked the ball coming in were horrible, but the shots on the green and in the fairway during putts/swings were decent. Overall though i think this was WHIOs worst display of HD (i don't remember it being this bad last year). Worse then NFL/NCAA, maybe i'm a little biast though because at a place like Augusta National you just expect perfection.

dusterscott

04-11-05, 01:03 PM

Well-said 1450 kHz.

Nitewatchman

04-12-05, 06:21 PM

Just noticed that currently at least, WHIO-DT's SD subchannel is gone ...

Fingers crossed that all their bandwidth is now allocated to the HD service ...

hall

04-12-05, 06:38 PM

You probably just jinxed it.... :D

s1059197

04-14-05, 01:40 PM

I watched parts of a couple of sitcoms on WHIO last night, and there were no signs of macroblocking, although "Yes Dear" isn't exactly fast-paced visually. (Or remotely funny, for that matter.) What really stood out to me, though, is that the sound seemed to be better than I remember it from WHIO in the past. It might have been my imagination, or wishful thinking, but it felt like there was a difference. Anyone else notice any difference in sound?

Phil

browerjs

04-15-05, 08:44 AM

I watched King of Queens last night (DVR'd it Wed), and I must say that the PQ was much better then normal, no artifacting and overall the video looked a lot better. As for the sound the DD5.1 did sound a bit better, seemed to have a little deeper bass then normal.

Rakesh.S

04-15-05, 09:30 AM

I've got my CSI dvr'd, will check it out during the weekend and report back regarding artifacts...The intro is usually artifact laden when they do fast camera pans so that should be a good test.

I hope our bitching finally paid off.

Shallow70

04-15-05, 05:04 PM

Originally posted by Shallow70
I'm curious about this, anyone aware of the availability of the 8300 HD DVR boxes, and any info on the WB in HD. Thanks!

I've noticed whio seems better as well, trying to not let the placibo affect take place. :)

I picked up my 8300 hd-dvr yesterday at the Kettering office. I've only spent a few minutes watching it's picture etc. so don't have much of an opinion yet. , but hope to have more soon after setting up all of my wife and childs shows to record.

hall

04-15-05, 05:12 PM

Shallow70: They finally have the 8300s available ?? Figures.... we've got a number of programs recorded and not yet watched and I'm not interested in losing them just to get the new box.

Rakesh: Which CSI, Las Vegas, Miami, or NY ??

Rakesh.S

04-15-05, 07:02 PM

Hall,

I was referring to Vegas - The intro has some scenes where stuff under the microscope gets magnified..This is pretty quick, and usually pixelated, big time..I will check it out in a little bit here and see what it looks like, now that the sub has been dropped.

hall

04-16-05, 03:02 PM

Watched the intro to CSI (Las Vegas) and didn't notice any problems except for one glaring one. No microscope shots seemed bad either. There was a few frames where literally the entire screen was an aqua shade or similar (I'm color-deficient, so don't hold me to my color guess) and it pixelated over the whole screen. I rewound it a couple times and it did it everytime so it wasn't a one-time playback glitch. Could it be the DVR's fault ?? I don't know ... until someone else who watched it says they saw the same thing.

blabes12

04-17-05, 10:10 AM

Shallow70, were there any magic words you had to use to get an 8300HD, or are they giving them to anyone who already has an 8000HD?

I'm going to try calling Sound Waves (on 741 near the Dayton Mall) later to see if they have any...

jbh613

04-17-05, 12:06 PM

Strange stuff guys. I talk to TimeWarner installers on a daily basis at work, and all of them have told me the 8300 wont be available for a few more months...

hall

04-17-05, 12:22 PM

No offense to (most of) the installers, but how many know the difference between the 8000HD and 8300HD ?? To them, or many of them, it's just an HD-DVR....

Rakesh.S

04-17-05, 03:33 PM

I watched CSI this morning - no motion blurring all the way through, but I did have freeze frames off and on during the course of the show...I'd like to blame it on the DVR, but I'm not really sure.

Does anyone know what bitrate they're putting out? I'm curious to see whether or not they upped the bitrate after dropping the sub..

hall

04-17-05, 05:25 PM

You saw no problems so what can you blame on the DVR ??

Rakesh.S

04-17-05, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by hall
You saw no problems so what can you blame on the DVR ??

I watched CSI this morning - no motion blurring all the way through, but I did have freeze frames off and on during the course of the show

hall

04-17-05, 07:27 PM

Sorry, don't know what you mean by "freeze frames"....

Sneedes

04-18-05, 12:35 AM

Seems like there may be additional information I need to know.
What are the major differences between the 8000 and 8300 DVRs? I currently have an 8000 model and wondering if it is really an upgrade.
Can I simply exchange the 8000 for an 8300 at the local office?

When I picked up my 8000 model, everyone on the telephone (and local technicians) swore up and down that they didn't have any high-def DVR boxes. I drove to the office, asked for an hd-dvr, and the gladly handed one over.

hall

04-18-05, 07:01 AM

People report much better picture quality with the 8300. I was also told by a TW engineer that it's worth upgrading.

Yes, you can "simply exchange" the boxes .... if they have the 8300. As for driving to the offices, don't be disappointed if you're told they have them and find out they don't when you get there (after waiting in line 45 minutes).

Shallow70

04-18-05, 10:55 AM

I was treated well this time due to host of past problems including twice being told the boxes were in and they were not. The last time I stopped by the customer service rep took my name # number and assurred me she would set one aside since I had so much trouble. That was 1-2 months ago and low and behold she called last week and had one.

Historically TW does not do this, or take your info nd throw it away. My father in law walked in off the street and got a 8000 6 months ago, and it was 3 months of calling before I got mine. In my opinion TW does a horrible job of prioritizing their distribution of equipment. If you show up at the right time, you can get one, but otherwise you are repeatedly pushed to the end of the line.

Shallow70

04-18-05, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by hall
Shallow70: They finally have the 8300s available ?? Figures.... we've got a number of programs recorded and not yet watched and I'm not interested in losing them just to get the new box.

Rakesh: Which CSI, Las Vegas, Miami, or NY ??

I still have my 8000 and will return it when we have watched all of our shows. A little extra $$ but is worth it IMO. In the past I have gotten an upgraded box that is worst than my curent equiment, so I always overlap my upgrades as such.

hall

04-18-05, 08:35 PM

My contact at TW says they do have 8300HD units available. I'm not sure if all locations have them yet or if he means Leo St, the Kettering office, etc, etc. I think I'm gonna hold off for now so I didn't ask anything more than that.

koach

04-19-05, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by hall
My contact at TW says they do have 8300HD units available. I'm not sure if all locations have them yet or if he means Leo St, the Kettering office, etc, etc. I think I'm gonna hold off for now so I didn't ask anything more than that.

I'm going to call my local office (Eaton) and ask.

koach

04-19-05, 08:29 AM

Eaton office said it's still another 4 weeks until the 8300 is available to the public. They're still in employee testing.

hall

04-19-05, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by koach
Eaton office said it's still another 4 weeks until the 8300 is available to the public. They're still in employee testing. I trust my contact.... Some of the people who post here know who he is and that his information is 100% valid. Given the Eaton office's track record, do you trust or believe anything they tell you ?? They told you 1-2 months ago that they *had* 8300HD units and you could pick one up.

Here's part of our e-mail exchange:

Me: Someone over at AVS Forums said he picked up an 8300HD at the Kettering office yesterday. You finally have them ??

Him: Yes, the SA 8300HD DVR's are available and operate much better than the SA 8010HD DVR's.

Rakesh.S

04-21-05, 02:11 PM

Late night with conan o'brien goes HD next tuesday..no NBC on TWC - good luck staying up till 1:30 to watch the show, unless you have some other OTA recording mechanism.

Nitewatchman

04-22-05, 10:25 PM

Looks like WBDT-DT might be having PSIP problems tonight ... RCA DTC-100 with PSIP stuff turned off is decoding A/V from them just fine at 18-3, but the Zenith HDV420 sees plenty of signal but can't decode anything, including PSIP info ...

BTW, still getting the dropped frames/stuttering video issue with WKEF-DT during ABC HD+24fps source material on the Zenith receiver(not the RCA), and noticed more video freezes than usual with the RCA during Alias this week ... I haven't noticed the dropped frames issue(which I've seen from some non-fox programming) for anything I've watched on WRGT-DT lately however ....

Also -- I caught a bandwidth demanding section of one of the CSI HD shows this past week, and didn't notice compression artifact problems on WHIO-DT which would have been there if they still had the SD subchannel up ... Oh yeah, I did notice however that WHIO missed HD for the Sunday movie last week(HD was fine from WKRC-DT) ....

Does anyone think they'll get everything "fixed" and ready for prime time by the time analog shut off occurs ? I certianly hope so, but sometimes I wonder ...

dmcdayton

04-23-05, 01:46 AM

I picked up a new 8300HD from TW Kettering today. Clerk said that there were too many repeat problems with the previous model, there had only been 1 out of 500 with the 8300 and it was resolved.

My first nit to pick is that the Monster HDMI/DVI adapter I bought at Best Buy doesn't seat in the HDMI slot due to a screw located very close to the HDMI port. Its so close, I can't see how any but the thinnest walled plugs will fit.

browerjs

04-26-05, 01:46 PM

FYI, I was able to pick up the 8300HD at the TWC Fairborn office which typically has a much shorter wait then Kettering. They told me that they would only trade me if there was something wrong with my 8000 so i told them i was having audio dropouts.

Nitewatchman

04-27-05, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
Late night with conan o'brien goes HD next tuesday..no NBC on TWC - good luck staying up till 1:30 to watch the show, unless you have some other OTA recording mechanism.

I hope folks are recording from WLWT-DT, or presumably WCMH-DT as WDTN-DT must have missed the "memo" ... at least so far ..

HD for Conan does look good on WLWT-DT though ...

BTW, also .... interestingly enough, the SD is 16x9 letterbox ...

Update: Well, Seems like the MCO's monitoring WDTN-DT's signal should have figured it out by now, given that not only did Conan talk about HD, for a minute there they even blacked out the 4x3 area, and even his guest, NYC Mayor Bloomburg mentioned it was his "first time" in HD .... sigh ....

WBDT-DT PSIP still appears to be hosed, BTW ....

Rakesh.S

04-27-05, 09:52 AM

I probably won't be watching Conan in HD till TWC carries it(so i can record it)..no way i can stay up that late and based on some posts, TWC has no plans to add NBC.. -_-

hall

04-27-05, 12:54 PM

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
I probably won't be watching Conan in HD till TWC carries it(so i can record it)..no way i can stay up that late and based on some posts, TWC has no plans to add NBC.. -_- The most recent word I have from TWC (this is less than three weeks old) is:

We’re actively in talks with both WDTN and WB. All I can say is its coming in the very near future.

I've been told this before though... I don't blame the person who told by any means either. It's just two companies bickering over $$$...

Nitewatchman

04-28-05, 01:34 AM

Good news ... WDTN-DT got it right tonight for HD Conan ...

I usually have to turn into a pumpkin by around midnight or so and generally don't watch Conan a lot, but maybe I'll record it every now and then .. Nothing bugs me more though when I go to watch a recording and a station has neglected to switch to HD feed, whearas with live TV I can just tune to station in another market(Dayton or Cincy) ...

Anyway, was watching the 12am airing on WPTD-DT of the HD NG special and noticed how good it did look during non-bandwidth demanding portions and was also thinking that it's too bad that it doesn't look so great (not even as good as NTSC SD analog IMO) during the bandwidth demanding portions ...

hall

04-28-05, 06:15 PM

I thought I heard this on the 6 o'clock news so I double-checked their site:
Programming Note

The CBS Television Network will NOT be carrying President Bush's speech live at 8:00 p.m. tonight. This week's episode of Survivor: Palau will be aired without interruption.

Watch The President's Speech on WHIO-TV High Definition Channel 41-1 beginning at 8 p.m. I don't watch Survivor, which is on at 8pm, but CSI is on at 9pm and might be affected, which I do watch.... I guess this shows how they feel about HD viewers and how low priority they are to them. They know very few people will watch the president's speech so they're aren't going to hurt themselves by sending viewers to other channels, ABC, NBC, etc. Safe to assume that the other networks aren't carrying it either.

browerjs

04-29-05, 02:57 PM

I guess CBS was the last of the networks to commit to the press conference:

http://www.imdb.com/news/sb/2005-04-29/tv/1

hall

04-29-05, 03:13 PM

Hehe, I like Bush's comment:

President Bush himself took note of the networks' concerns at two minutes before 9:00 p.m. when he said he would take a final question.

"I don't want to cut into some of these TV shows that are getting ready to air -- for the sake of the economy,"

Rakesh.S

04-29-05, 11:43 PM

I'm beginning to wonder if the "test" channels in the 900s on TWC are going to be used for the Voom channels, like Monsters-HD. So far E* has announced carriage and the channels are supposedly available to cable operators also. Hmm..

hall

04-30-05, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
I'm beginning to wonder if the "test" channels in the 900s on TWC are going to be used for the Voom channels... Already asked....

We're testing the spectrum between 750 and 780 MHz to determine where we need to work on our distribution system. The test channels you're seeing are within this frequency spectrum. TWC has announced we plan to digitally simulcast the analog tier. This will require about 5 additional QAM channels.

koach

04-30-05, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by hall
TWC has announced we plan to digitally simulcast the analog tier. This will require about 5 additional QAM channels.[/i]

What does this mean? Does this mean that the analog channels (2-78) will also be available in digital?

hall

04-30-05, 03:16 PM

Yes, that's what it means.....

blabes12

04-30-05, 07:39 PM

Thought I should mention for those close to the Dayton Mall... I was able to exchange my 8000HD for an 8300HD at Sound Waves last week with no waiting and no questions asked. The PQ does look subjectively better to me, and the title search interface came in handy as I was re-entering my shows to record.

Nitewatchman

04-30-05, 09:47 PM

Well, FWIW, I just :

#1). Sent a note to WBDT-DT's "questions" email address informing them of the PSIP issue they seem to have been having since Fri 4/22/05 or so. If they don't get it fixed soon, If I get a chance I'll try to call them next week during business hours(probably end up in their CE's voice mail) ...

#2) Having not heard anything back from WKEF/WRGT after trying to contact them about the issue, I also just sent a note to SBG's "MrDTV" address shown on Sinclair website concerning the "dropped frames"(i.e. Stuttering video) issue some of us with certian receivers have been seeing during 24fps programming sourced from Film(or 1080p/24fps HD such as some of the ABC HD Sitcoms I believe) from WKEF-DT since about 3/1/2005 -- I also sent a link to our discussion of the issue back in March in this thread, beginning at following post :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5260797#post5260797

-----------------------------------------------------------------

It might also be helpful if others seeing these issues contact them as well.

WBDT-DT contact info here:

http://www.wb26tv.com/StationInfo/index.asp

WKEF/WRGT contact info:

STATION ADDRESS:
ABC22/FOX45
45 Broadcast Plaza
Dayton, Ohio 45408
Phone: 937.263.4500
Fax: 937.268.5265

WKEF/WRGT contact form, with drop down box to email your comments to various departments such as the "tech-engineering" department here:

http://www.wkef22.com/dayton_oh/station/contact_departments.shtml

----------------------------------------------

"MrDTV" email address on Sinclair(owns WKEF/WRGT) site can be found here:

http://www.sbgi.net/business/dtv/

Rakesh.S

05-01-05, 10:01 AM

Fired off an email to "mr.dtv" about the freeze frames on WKEF. Let's see what happens.

Nitewatchman

05-01-05, 11:08 AM

Thanks ... I thought about mentioning the long standing occasional video freezes problem as well, but, I concentrated on the "receiver model specific dropped frames issue" some of us are getting which just began from them back in late feb/early March - Which is a much worse problem for those of us getting it -- We are only getting about, say 3/4 or so of the video frames every second during programming sourced from film or 1080p/24fps, creating continously "stuttering" video at those times film/24fps source programming is aired - The audio is fine ) .... So far, Zenith HDV420 and Samsung 360 receivers are the only two I know of that have been reported to be effected ...

I don't know if it is true, but I had heard a rumor that switching for some Sinclair stations in this area began to be handled remotely from Columbus(similiar to the way LIN does the switching for WDTN-DT from Indy) around the time the "receiver model specific dropped frames issue" began effecting some models of OTA receivers ... I didn't hear anything specific about WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT, but I've also noticed since around that time I don't think I recall seeing WKEF-DT miss a switch to HD feed, which does seem a bit unusual given their HD switching track record prior to about feb 2005 ....

I know I've mentioned the long standing occasional video freezes problem(I think everyone is getting that) several times to WKEF engineering over the past few years to no avail, I'm not sure but at some point I may have mentioned it to MrDTV as well ....

Rakesh.S

05-02-05, 04:35 PM

Jeff, check your email..

Looks like they replied to both of us. However, I emailed them about the video freeze issue and it appears that they thought it was the same issue that you were having(the dropped frames issue).

They did respond to the 5.1 issue and said something about rewiring..No ETA.

These are the "issues" that I'm having with them,

1) Video freezing for around 5 seconds and audio keeps going, then resyncs.

2) When coming back from local commercials, they try to sync the audio back with the national feed. This takes a few seconds, and more often than not, dialogue is missed.

It appears that they are responsive to the "Mr.DTV" address(it seems to go directly to "the man" and they send it to the station engineers) so i would encourage more people to email that address with the aforementioned issues(if you are seeing the same things i am).

Nitewatchman

05-03-05, 01:30 AM

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
Jeff, check your email..

Got it ... Thanks ... Very busy today, didn't even get to check email account until late ...

Nitewatchman

05-03-05, 09:20 PM

Some Good news :

The WKEF-DT "dropped frames" some of us were seeing on a couple of receiver models during HD sourced from Film or 1080p 24fps HD is now fixed .... Also The same problem that I was only seeing on WRGT-DT during certian local/syndicated programming(such as Simpsons and Seinfeld) since last summer with Zenith HDV420 also appears to be fixed -- at least I did not see the problem occur when I checked it during "Simpsons" tonight ....

Since some of us were puzzling about this some time back and what was causing it - although this isn't a full explanation, follows is what I've learned : I've been in correspondance with WKEF-DT Chief engineer about the issue, as well as Dan Carpenter, Engineer at WSYX-DT in Columbus, and the solution to the problem was that they turned off "repeat field detection" setting on their encoder, which is a Harmonic Divicom MV400 - Which IS, I believe not only a popular encoder which is considered by many in the broadcast engineering world as the best available today, If I recall correctly it is also the encoder Fox uses as the Network level for FOX HD splicer system ..

Now, here is the explanation from Dan Carpenter at WSYX-DT concerning what "repeat field detection" on the MV400 does:

"There is an element in the encoding process called "repeat field
detection" where the encoder does not encode multiple identical fields,
as you get with 24p to 30 or 60p conversion, rather it tells the decoder
at home to duplicate the fields."

:end quote

Now, one would think that turning "repeat field detection" on would be a good thing, since one would think it should make for more efficent encoding, and one would think it should be supported by all decoders ... What is puzzling is that MOST decoders out there were handling things just fine(no dropped frames) with it turned on on the encoder, while other decoders(Zenith HDV420) did not ....... I don't know, perhaps there may be other factors which were involved as well. however, I somehow expect those of us with certian receiver models may come across this issue again, perhaps elsewhere someday, in which case hopefully some of the above would be of use ...

Nitewatchman

05-03-05, 10:10 PM

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
Looks like they replied to both of us. However, I emailed them about the video freeze issue and it appears that they thought it was the same issue that you were having(the dropped frames issue).

Yes ... I explained about the long standing "Video freezes" issue(I think we are all getting this) being different issue to a couple of their Engineers I talked to, most recently to WKEF engineer on the phone, and it sounded like he got your info/report as well. They now understand it's a seperate issue, and we discussed what might be happening, but looks like the video freezes issue is going to be a difficult bug for them to track down ... Their CE did say they also added a HD frame syncronizer today, but said that should not have any effect on Network programming ...

I should say however that I've been working while monitoring ABC HD/WKEF-DT out of corner of my eye since 8pm, and I've not seen a video freeze so far ... Who knows, It may be something really odd that ends up getting "fixed" when something meant to address some other issue ends up curing the problem ....

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
They did respond to the 5.1 issue and said something about rewiring..No ETA.

Yes .. A bit of a follow up on that ... Their CE said they will get DD 5.1 going as soon as possible, but in order to provide 5.1 they need to get a piece of equipment that will allow them to effectively "switch" the audio sources properly when going from local to net and vice versa ...

Originally posted by Rakesh.S

2) When coming back from local commercials, they try to sync the audio back with the national feed. This takes a few seconds, and more often than not, dialogue is missed.

This used to be more common from other stations in the area as well -- For instance, for quite a while, it was equally bad on WDTN, and a few Of the Cincinnati stations, and of course it happens to the commercials as well when it goes from Net HD to local ... I talked to their CE about this tonight as well, and as I had also heard previously -- My understanding is, the equipment needs to properly sync up the A/V sources after a switch, which with some of the equipment out there takes a bit more time than it should ... He said that they hope to soon get better equipment for this that should make things smoother ...

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
It appears that they are responsive to the "Mr.DTV" address(it seems to go directly to "the man" and they send it to the station engineers) so i would encourage more people to email that address with the aforementioned issues(if you are seeing the same things i am).

I would also encourage folks to contact the station(or use MrDTV address) to provide their input on matters ... I talked to their CE a bit about this tonight, and he agreed as well ...

If we don't TELL them when we are having problems, they don't know, and just one or two people contacting them about an issue is not allways going to be enough for them to try to work out what is going on .... Also, the more folks who do contact them, the more folks they know are watching and the more important the Digital station becomes ... After analog shut off occurs, things will be different, however, if we were to compare to analog TV, I don't think DTV has quite made it out of about 1953 yet ....

In any event, they said I was the ONLY person who had contacted them about the "dropped frames" issue, which is an issue(affecting only certian receivers, Zenith HDV420, and I think Samsung 360 if I recall correctly) which was occuring for 2 months from WKEF-DT .... This is of course, Not the first time I've been told by stations I was the only person who contacted them ...

P.S. --- Evidently, from what we could gather -- the emails I've sent WKEF/WRGT have evidently been "lost in the system" before they made itn to their intended receipients, apparently blocked out by a spam filter ... Prior to about say, 8 months or so ago, WKEF/WRGT engineers were allways very responsive to my input, and my guess is "spam filters" probably expains what happened .... They said they were wondering what happened to me <g> ...

Nitewatchman

05-04-05, 12:01 AM

Sorry for the multiple posts ....

I had commented on this in earlier posts, but, since I've not heard any other reports or comments on it, I'm curious whether my Zenith receiver is the only one having this issue ...

Has anyone else had a problem with WBDT-DT(WB HD Dayton) for the past 10 days (since 4/22) ...?

I expect it's a PSIP problem on their end, as I'm getting plenty of signal, but just the old "blank screen nothing will decode" mode from them on the Zenith, RCA DTC-100 with PSIP remapping turned off is decoding them just fine ....

Or for that matter, is NOT having any problem receiving them OTA ?

I talked to WBDT engineering this morning about the issue, and, at this point I think it might be helpful if others who are seeing the problem would also contact them(their CE said I was the only one who had contacted them about it), as well as report about it here ...

It might also be helpful if anyone who is NOT getting the problem would also post about it here, ...As, I'm not sure whether anyone else is seeing the issue, and I might be able to help them out more to address the issue if I can tell him some of the receivers that are or are not effected ...

Thanks ....

Paul210

05-04-05, 08:53 AM

Jeff,

I've got the same receiver you do (Zenith HDV420), so I'm seeing it, too. Or should I say "not seeing" WBDT-DT. Oh, you know what I mean! :)

Regarding WKEF-DT, I did see one video freeze last night during Blind Justice: Video freeze, audio continues, then everything drops completely for a couple seconds. Thankfully, the dropped frame issue is gone.

Paul

Rakesh.S

05-04-05, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

It might also be helpful if anyone who is NOT getting the problem would also post about it here, ...As, I'm not sure whether anyone else is seeing the issue, and I might be able to help them out more to address the issue if I can tell him some of the receivers that are or are not effected ...

Thanks ....

I will check tonight, since i only watch WBDT on wednesdays :)

I did not have any problems with the signal last wednesday.

Mitsubishi Integrated Tuner here.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

I should say however that I've been working while monitoring ABC HD/WKEF-DT out of corner of my eye since 8pm, and I've not seen a video freeze so far.

No video freezes between 8-8:30. The best indicator would be a one hour program(will report back on this tonight as well). Looks like there was one during Blind Justice last night, according to Paul210.

dusterscott

05-04-05, 10:38 AM

Jeff,

I'm getting WBDT with no problems here. I don't normally watch this channel so don't know what it's been like for the last 10 days.

Nitewatchman

05-04-05, 11:32 AM

Thanks guys ... I'll have to call WBDT back about it -- I talked to their CE yesterday+he was going to check some things and call me back yesterday afternoon, but I'm afraid if he did call he wouldn't have got through as I had the phone continiously tied up ...

Yeah, it's been Continously "blank screen mode" with the Zenith the past 10 days, and just fine with DTC-100(but with the PSIP turned off/I haven't had a chance to try it with PSIP turned on as it takes it forever to do the necessary "full rescan" for channels) -- so appears to be another receiver specific thing .... Which is a bit odd Paul+I's Zenith's are having the problem, as usually it's pretty good concerning PSIP issues as compared to some of the OTA only Samsungs - like the 151 ...

1450kHz

05-04-05, 12:20 PM

No WBDT on a Samsung 165 box. Green signal light is on.

dusterscott

05-04-05, 03:38 PM

Jeff,

I went out for a couple of hours and when I returned found a blank screen on 26-1. I'll rescan and see if that fixes the problem. Sammy 360.

dusterscott

05-04-05, 03:56 PM

Rescan didn't help, blank screen now.

Rakesh.S

05-04-05, 10:06 PM

came through fine tonight between 8-9 pm

Nitewatchman

05-04-05, 10:28 PM

Well, left a message at WBDT engineering voice mail this morning ... I Haven't heard anything back from them yet, and did manage to give them a phone # that was relatively clear of other activity today ... Hopefully, they are working on it, but if it isn't fixed soon, perhaps if more folks who are having the problem contacted and let them know #1). Your having the problem and 2.) What receiver you are using --- it might be helpful .... I think the following is the most relevant info from their website regarding how to contact them about such issues :

Quote:

"Questions regarding reception of Dayton's WB can be directed to (937) 384-9226 or by writing to ENGINEERING c/o Dayton's WB, 2589 Corporate Place, Miamisburg, OH 45342.

:end quote

-------------------

Good to hear Rakesh is still able to decode WBDT-DT anyway, the way it was going --- I was 1/2 expecting to hear it wouldn't work for him tonight either ...

They are still in "Blank Screen" mode here on the Zenith, BTW ... I can't check DTC-100 to see what its doing currently, as I'm afraid it,(its actually an internal model of DTC-100 - (RCA's DM1 module specifically) inside an "integrated" HD set), as well as my main HT setup is currently out of commission for repairs ...

Sooo, It's a good thing I can watch WB HD from WSTR-DT .....

Nitewatchman

05-04-05, 11:39 PM

Used WWV HF broadcast to make sure the clock I was using for reference was accurate, and then wrote down the exact times of all the video freezes I had during 5/4/05 airing of HD Alias on WKEF-DT :

Begin : 21:04:58 EDT
End : 21:05:03

Begin: 21:14:50
End: 21:14:55 -- NOTE : Occured very near beginning of Alias "theme" ..

Begin: 21:28:14
End : 21:28:19

I watched it quite closely, and I'm quite sure those were the only 3 I had between 9:01~10pm tonight ... They were all during the show, none during, or near a commercial break ...It's been rare, but I have seen them during a commercial airing off the Net(HD) feed ... Of course, I've Never seen one during local/syndicated programming ....

You know, it's funny what you remember ... I don't remember exactly when it was, but for some reason I do recall that the first of these Video Freezes I saw on WKEF-DT was(when they were NBC) during a HD "ER" episode sometime in the 2002-03 season, and that there were two freezes during that episode ....

There wasn't much HD prior to Fall 2002, but I did watch quite a bit of HD Leno, and the 2002 HD Winter Olympics on WKEF-DT, and I do know for at least the first 6~12 months or so they were on the air(they first came on air in Feb 02 - temporarily just for HD olympics, and then went off air after Olympics, signing on permanently around 5/1/02), they didn't ever have those freezes ....

Rakesh.S

05-05-05, 12:08 AM

Jeff, I didn't see any video freezes during Lost earlier tonight..It was perfect all the way through <gasp>

I have Alias recorded, so I'll probably see those freezes whenever i get around to watching it.

Nitewatchman

05-05-05, 01:25 AM

Rakesh,

Interestingly enough, WKEF's CE told me this morning one of their employees was going to closely monitor "HD Lost"( If I understand correctly, I believe from Home on his HD set tonight) to see if he noticed any issues ... I hope he watched Alias as well ...

That would be great if you could verify getting the freezes at the same times I experienced them, I will be contacting WKEF folks very soon to let them know I/we are still getting this issue, and I think it would be helpful if we can show more than one viewer is getting the problem at the exact same time.

It would help prove that this is not some sort of reception related issue(for OTA viewers and/or at TW headend). I know it was the first thing I thought of way back when I first saw it that that might be a possibility, as the random nature of it first made me think a reception related issue might explain it. However, I think I'm quite sure it isn't as:

#1). When they were running a SD subchannel, it never happened there.

#2). It never happens during local/Syndicated programming.

#3). Doesn't necessarily prove anything, but I didn't see it happen the first 6~12 months they were on the air.

#4). As I was able to confirm with #1, I just don't seem to get reception related dropouts on WKEF(nor other stations in the area) ... As far as the signal strength from WKEF goes, I can add an extra 25db attenuation in the feedline before losing a signal lock on WKEF-DT, and multipath does not seem to be a problem, I get continously steady and high readings on the receiver's signal quality meter, even when the video freezes occur.

#5). Most of the time I've seen the freezes, they have occured as Paul described earlier, except that I don't lose the audio at all during the freeze ... Sometimes, I've even seen the frozen video frame stay up throughout, instead of any blank screen periods ... That wouldn't happen(no loss of audio especially) if it was reception related ... However, I did notice that tonight, the freezes occured EXACTLY as Paul described --- Video freeze+audio for the first second or two of the freeze, then blank screen+no audio for the next second or two, then audio+blank screen for the next second or two, then the freeze ends and you have audio/video(and in sync A/V) as normal ... Note that I almost allways watch Alias/Lost, and the NBC HD shows I used to watch on WKEF-DT with the main HT setup and the DTC-100, tonight I was using Zenith receiver and a different set ...

------------------

Another thing I thought of at first that might explain the freezes would be an issue with the feed from the network ... However, I know this isn't it either, as when I've checked it), it just didn't happen during NBC HD from WLWT-DT when it was happening from WKEF-DT when they were NBC, and is doesn't happen now from WCPO-DT or WSYX-DT ... Also, while in the past I've certianly seen issues with the net feed which have effected both WKEF-DT and either WLWT-DT(NBC), and seems like there may have been one occasion when something happned since WKEF went to ABC that also occured with WCPO-DT(ABC) as well -- instances which resulted in somewhat similiar results as the video freezes, it's been a very, very rare thing ... Even though the occurances of WKEF-DT video freezes are random and occasional, they aren't quite that rare ...

What is interesting however -- is that it's been a while, but I have heard reports of folks seeing what seems to be the SAME thing occasionally from WABC-DT NY -- Their OTA viewers, and viewers of the East Coast ABC HD DNS sat feed via D* ... I think somewhere way back in this thread I had posted a link to a thread containing some of those reports .... I could probably search this thread for WABC or New York or something and find it ....

----------------------------------------------

And of course, another possibility might be one of those "decoder specific issues", as we were getting with the dropped frames .... But, from what I can tell from the reports here, It looks like everyone is getting them(it may take a while to notice however, given the seemingly random nature of the problem) ....

--------------------

Anyhow --- Because of the random and occasional nature of it -- I think It really is a difficult(and frustrating) issue I think for both the station and Us to address ...

Rakesh.S

05-05-05, 10:36 AM

I will check my recording of Alias this evening, and report back as to whether the freezes occurred at the same times that you saw them at.

Maybe another thing we could do is, capture one of these shows, just edit it so we can get the 10-15 seconds in which the freeze occurs, and then email this over to WKEF?

On a side note, my 8000HD DVR has been a pain in the derriere of late.. Lots of dropouts during recorded programming and at times, not recording shows in their entirety. Even my season pass for CSI just magically stopped working.

Hmm..might be time to make that trip down to the TWC office and get it swapped out for an 8300HD.

hall

05-05-05, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
On a side note, my 8000HD DVR has been a pain in the derriere of late.. Lots of dropouts during recorded programming and at times, not recording shows in their entirety. Speaking of that, we've been seeing it too... Trouble is, I don't know if it's from the source (TV station), TW, the box itself, or the recording of the program. We watch almost NOTHING live anymore. I don't know if a stutter or pixelation occurred during the showing or if the DVR screwed it up.

If you don't have anything on your 8000HD that you want to do without, everything I've read about the 8300HD is reason enough to swap. We've got too many 1-2 week old shows to watch yet so I don't want to get rid of mine yet.... Hmmm, I wonder if I could trade my non-HD 8000 for an 8300HD and put the 8000HD and 8300HD side-by-side, connected to the new TV. Record new things on the 8300 and use the 8000 to watch the old stuff. :-)

browerjs

05-06-05, 08:14 AM

I have yet to see a dropout on anything recorded on my 8300HD. A much better box all around.

Nitewatchman

05-06-05, 11:51 AM

At 11:30am 5/6(fri), WBDT-DT is now decoding just fine on Zenith HDV420 receiver ...

Originally posted by browerjs
I have yet to see a dropout on anything recorded on my 8300HD. A much better box all around.

Assuming you record some ABC HD, are you saying you've never seen the WKEF-DT Video freezes? (Would be interesting to hear from any others who have the 8300 as well on this) If so, that would be interesting ... It doesn't happen all the time but if you watch any sort of ABC HD shows regularly I would think you would have at least seen a video freeze or two ... On average, beginning about 2 years ago video freezes have occurred from WKEF-DT during NBC or ABC HD(never during local/syndicated programming) about 1-2 times per hour but occasionally there are shows and nights when it doesn't happen at all ...

I've tried numerous times in the past couple of years, but I think so far I've been unsuccesful in explaining to them that this is an issue that is apparently occuring on their end ... It was my understanding that its an issue which is effecting everyone, but perhaps this is not the case?

I talked to them a bit about it the other day, but not since they've fixed the receiver specific "dropped frames" issue, so I'm not sure if they know that its still occuring. Next time I do contact them about the video freezes I want to provide them with as much "good info" as possible that may help them to resolve the problem ...

Thanks,

Shallow70

05-06-05, 12:16 PM

The 8300hd does a better job of handling these errors of picture freezing for me, but they are still there. The box has worked much better than the 8000 as well as when TW actaully crimped by incoming cable (doh!).

No reboots, lost shows, less programming bugs. My 8000 got into lip sync troubles when this occurred and the picture drop out was longer.

I would be willing to closely watch a show and keep track of issues.

browerjs

05-06-05, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

Assuming you record some ABC HD, are you saying you've never seen the WKEF-DT Video freezes? (Would be interesting to hear from any others who have the 8300 as well on this) If so, that would be interesting ... It doesn't happen all the time but if you watch any sort of ABC HD shows regularly I would think you would have at least seen a video freeze or two ... On average, beginning about 2 years ago video freezes have occurred from WKEF-DT during NBC or ABC HD(never during local/syndicated programming) about 1-2 times per hour but occasionally there are shows and nights when it doesn't happen at all ...
Thanks, [/B]

I only watch 1 show on ABC and that's According to Jim, and I haven't seen any drop outs since i upgraded my box, but then again, I know for a fact WKEF has problems as i've seen it for the past 1.5 years.

Rakesh.S

05-06-05, 01:42 PM

I think there are two separate issues/types of dropouts here.

1. The 8000HD seems to drop out(blips and pixelations). This happens on programming that was recorded on ANY HD channel(TNT, WHIO etc etc.). These feeds are fine if you watch them live. When you get into recording, that's where the dropout issue comes into play. The loss of sync issue is still present on recorded programming. You have to rewind to a spot right after the sync was lost and you'll be okay, but it is annoying.

2. WKEF itself has video freezes as described above - video freezes, audio keeps playing, and then video catches up 5 or 6 seconds later. This occurs very frequently during one hour dramas. I have also seen this happen during the 1/2 hour sitcoms, though the freezes are not as frequent as the one hour dramas. Then again, I doubt it is a "type of show" issue. Something's up with the encoder at WKEF and it is inserting these "random" freezes.

Now, 1 and 2 together can be a dangerous combination.

Hope that clears up any confusion, if there was any.

Nitewatchman

05-06-05, 03:30 PM

Rakesh,

I don't think there was any confusion, I just want to make sure everyone is getting the WKEF-DT video freezes ...

Whatever is causing the freezes, I'm sure it's an issue occuring at the station, but it may not be an encoder specific issue, at least, it may not be solely an encoder issue - There is a lot of stuff that goes on between their Sat dish that picks up the signal for ABC HD feed and the MPEG2/HD Encoder, or for that matter, even more stuff going on between the sat dish and the transmitter ... Since it didn't ever happen on their SD subchannel they used to run, and doesn't happen anywhere except off the ABC(and NBC previously) HD feed -- That seems to rule out RF transmission or reception issues, but also -- If TW is being fed their signal via fiber instead of receiving it Off-air at the cableco headend, since we know the TW viewers are getting it as well, at least we could completely rule out the possibility of any RF transmission issues, and we can also completely rule out reception issues(weak signals/multipath/etc) as well if everyone is getting the freezes at the exact, same time(which I believe is the case) ....

I don't know exactly how they have it set up, and there is more to it, but the way ABC HD works - basically, they have a Feed directly off a satellite that sends ABC HD via what If I recall correctly uses a proprietary compression scheme using around 45Mb/s ... This must be decoded by their ABC supplied(there is other equipment involved as well which ABC supplies) Sat receiver and sent to their MPEGII/HD encoder(probably as uncompressed HD-SDI - Which is approx 1.5Gb/s data rate). The Audio(AC-3/DD 2.0 currently - ABC sends a completely different audio stream for DD 5.1) and HD Video data streams are also seperate(and use seperate encoders), and must be "synced up" at the station so that when it reaches our decoders, the AC-3(DD) audio stream and the MPEGII video streams are "in sync" .....

Since it was happening with NBC HD as well(and they had their encoder to set up to send 1080i back then, now it's 720p) as well, the sat receiver(which would be different now for ABC) wouldn't seem to be a "suspect" ....

And, it's hard to say but if this were solely a encoder issue, one would think it likely it would occur during Syndicated/local programming as well, but I've never seen it there ... For that matter, when they have used a NBC or ABC SD feed I haven't seen it there, either ... So :

Anything that is passing through their upconverter isn't having the freezes. So -- this leads me to think there is some sort of problem occasionally occuring somewhere in their equiment chain between the ABC(or NBC previously) HD Sat receiver and the encoder ... And/or perhaps it could have something to do with how the audio/Video streams are being synched which works "differently" for the ABC HD feed than it does for local/syndicated programming ... I suppose the issue could also be an issue of them having a problem getting a perfect, dropout free signal from the HD feed off the bird to the sat receiver, but I'd think that seems very unlikely since it's happening the same now as it did before with NBC HD ...

Whatever is going on, I do know I don't think I ever saw a Video freeze occur during NBC HD for the first 8~12 months they were on the air ... I think I mentioned this earlier, but I believe I began seeing them occur just after their CE had told me he had to replace a fiber transmitter for their STL(Studio transmitter Link) ... While one wouldn't think that would have directly started causing such an issue(for instance, again it's JUST ABC HD that has the freezes, not other programming), perhaps something indirectly relating to the Procedure may be involved ( Just guessing, for example --- maybe RFI being picked up somewhere after cables were moved around/etc during the STL transmitter change) ....

I'm thinking it may even be possible that we might start seeing something different with the freezes(or one could hope it might even go away) once they get DD 5.1 up and running ...

I'm also thinking that this just might be one of those things that when it does "clear up" when they replace some piece of equipment/etc, we may never know why ....

It really is a annoying, and difficult issue though -- as one really has to really pay attention, and also have another source of ABC HD(previously NBC HD) to compare it to to make sure it isn't an issue with the net feed itself, as these sorts of things have been known to happen with the net feeds, just not as frequently(but still just in a occasional, random fashion) as is the case with WKEF-DT's video freeze over the last ~2 years ...

dfas34

05-06-05, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
At 11:30am 5/6(fri), WBDT-DT is now decoding just fine on Zenith HDV420 receiver ...

I was looking for a second stb this past week (already have a DTC100) and picked up a Humax HFA100 and the walmart usdigital to compare. Both the DTC and usdigital receivers pulled in WBDT just fine while the Humax was displaying blank. I was getting bummed thinking it was a problem with the Humax, I liked it better. Just fired it up and now WBDT is finally coming in. Sweet.

Rakesh.S

05-06-05, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

Begin : 21:04:58 EDT
End : 21:05:03

Begin: 21:14:50
End: 21:14:55 -- NOTE : Occured very near beginning of Alias "theme" ..

Begin: 21:28:14
End : 21:28:19

Jeff,

I only had one freeze and it was the last one you listed..I just finished watching it. I had a few dropouts, but not freezes at the beginning of the show. I thought it might have been a DVR issue.

Nitewatchman

05-06-05, 09:53 PM

Rakesh,

Interesting ... All 3 freezes during Alias behaved exactly the same way(as usual) here .... as they allways do, which is nothing like any OTA reception related dropout I've ever seen, in which case you would lose audio+video simultanously ...

My WAG is that it perhaps it is some sort of encoding/decoding issue ... even wilder guess, maybe involving syncing up the audio and video streams at the decoder end(although I haven't seen any A/V sync problems, even immediately after the freeze), with some decoders evidently doing better than others on some of the "freezes" ... I don't know much about DVR's, but if they don't have to decode the streams in real time, maybe that helps them out a little with this issue?

------------------------------

dfas34,

Welcome to AVsforum+Dayton thread ... I'm curious -- On DTC-100, do you have the assistance menu "off air guides" function turned off(WBDT-DT would show up on 18-3) or on(WBDT-DT would show up as 26-1)?

Thanks ...

Rakesh.S

05-06-05, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Rakesh,

Interesting ... All 3 freezes during Alias behaved exactly the same way(as usual) here .... as they allways do, which is nothing like any OTA reception related dropout I've ever seen, in which case you would lose audio+video simultanously ...

My WAG is that it perhaps it is some sort of encoding/decoding issue ... even wilder guess, maybe involving syncing up the audio and video streams at the decoder end(although I haven't seen any A/V sync problems, even immediately after the freeze), with some decoders evidently doing better than others on some of the "freezes" ... I don't know much about DVR's, but if they don't have to decode the streams in real time, maybe that helps them out a little with this issue?

Really weird stuff.. I don't think the DVR is able to resolve the freeze issue by itself, because there have been times in the past few weeks, when I'd be watching a recorded version of Alias and it would freeze multiple times during the course of the show.

I might have to try and watch Alias "live" sometime in the next 2 weeks and see if it is any different.

Nitewatchman

05-06-05, 11:08 PM

Originally posted by Shallow70
I would be willing to closely watch a show and keep track of issues.

Cool, the more input/reports we can provide to them, the better ...

Originally posted by Rakesh S

I might have to try and watch Alias "live" sometime in the next 2 weeks and see if it is any different.

Probably just coincidence, but Alias does seem to usually end up having the most freezes, but maybe that's because I watch it more often than any other ABC HD .... I sort of got off track with Lost after about the 4th episode, sort of lost interest but meant to start recording it(but didn't) anyway since I was watching HD "American Dreams" instead, but have watched a couple of Lost since then but hope to catch up with it again at some point ...

Any thing you guys want to check though, If I can't watch it, or am not recording something else(or watching something else with the receiver I use for recording input) ... and can remember to set up the recording ... I can record anything from the OTA digital stations to S-VHS and can see whatever happened ....

For HD sources, I use my Zenith receiver's "squeezed mode"(which results in 16x9 NTSC video - I.e. "anamorphic widescreen") and 480i S-video output to record to S-VHS, and then "stretch" it back out with my HD displays aspect ratio control modes(Just like a so called "anamorphic" widescreen DVD works) .... I have a S-VHS machine hooked up to both HD displays via S-Video, so can watch on either display ...

Certianly, what results from the recording isn't HD PQ, but, it was cheap(well, except for the S-VHS tapes), and it's very close to anamorphic DVD quality, with S-VHS doing ~400 lines of Horizontal resolution, twice that of VHS ... Anyway -- Sort of wish I'd picked up a couple of the D-VHS decks they had made(no longer available I don't think)which had analog component inputs on them, but they were a bit expensive, and I'd heard as they were some of the first D-VHS decks, they had some problems ....

dfas34

05-07-05, 01:20 AM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

dfas34,

Welcome to AVsforum+Dayton thread ... I'm curious -- On DTC-100, do you have the assistance menu "off air guides" function turned off(WBDT-DT would show up on 18-3) or on(WBDT-DT would show up as 26-1)?

Thanks ...
Thanks. It's not set to acquire off air guides, shows up as 18-3.

Rakesh.S

05-11-05, 08:06 PM

WBDT seems to be hosed right now(smallville) ..

The picture is very jittery when there's any type of camera movement.

Nitewatchman

05-11-05, 10:29 PM

Yeah, noticed that during HD Smallville - not as bad as some of us were getting from WKEF-DT when they were having their "dropped frames issue", but looked pretty much like the same sort of issue ... on WBDT-DT(on my Zenith receiver at least) during Smallville looked exactly what would happen if 3:2 pulldown isn't working ... I should have checked WSTR-DT to see if it was happening there as well, but was being lazy ...

tiggermanh

05-13-05, 10:43 PM

CBS HD for Numbers is screwed again. The center audio is missing. The music and sounds effects come through. Commericals sound fine.

I called the news desk and she was like, yeah we know and I told them to fix it earlier!

Go figure season finale too!

Paul210

05-13-05, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by tiggermanh
CBS HD for Numbers is screwed again. The center audio is missing. The music and sounds effects come through. Commericals sound fine.

I called the news desk and she was like, yeah we know and I told them to fix it earlier!

I'm glad someone else called. They had it fixed briefly after I called, but it screwed up again as soon as they came back from commercial break. Trying to watch it with the captioning was getting real old.

tiggermanh

05-13-05, 11:53 PM

The problem is I came in about 30 minutes in to it and was going to watch it from the beginning on my Tivo. It had no audio.

I ended up switching to CBS over satelite from Columbus to finish watching it.

Nitewatchman

05-14-05, 11:27 AM

I didn't watch "Numbers" last night, but I did notice WHIO-DT missed HD for the first 20 minutes of the 2nd part of the Elvis movie on Wednesday ...

However, here are notes concerning the current problem issues I have noticed from Dayton stations :

WBDT-DT:

WBDT-DT is in "plenty of signal but blank screen/non-decodable" mode again on Zenith receiver here ...

First time I noticed it was just after those first storms moved through yesterday ....

-------------------------------------

WKEF-DT:

Noticed quite a few of the video freezes during Alias Last week ....

--------------------------------------

WRGT-DT:

It's not as bad as it was before, but on Zenith receiver I'm still occasionally getting some dropped frames(i.e. Jittery video) during some Film based Syndicated programming(Never Fox programming) -- It very much seems like a 3:2 pulldown issue now, although it's not happening just when the camera is panning -- I've even seen a frame or two "missing" during mostly static movie credits ...

---------------

Rakesh.S

05-14-05, 11:59 AM

Video freezes -

1 during Lost

at least 2 during Alias this past week.

There were numerous other scenes where the screen would pixelate in random places. Going by the timestamps Jeff provided for his vid freezes during Alias two weeks ago, I'd have to say that some of those timestamps are where the screen pixelates, but doesn't freeze completely.

These pixelated scenes were running wild on Alias, and in Jeff's case, they probably froze completely..Hmm, wonder if the station folks are still monitoring these shows for freezes.

CPanther95

05-14-05, 01:22 PM

It's just an FYI for DirecTV subs that may not frequent the Programming forum.

$99 HD surcharge for what was free last year is a dangerous precedent to allow to go unchecked - for any HD enthusiast. Disregard if you choose not to participate.

hall

05-14-05, 05:42 PM

Just curious what would happen if I went and posted an "FYI" like this....

CPanther95

05-14-05, 08:11 PM

If the FYI is about HD and pertinent to the members of the area, no problem.

Nitewatchman

05-15-05, 01:00 AM

Originally posted by CPanther95
$99 HD surcharge for what was free last year is a dangerous precedent to allow to go unchecked - for any HD enthusiast.

I absolutely agree ... I had seen the thread in programming area and am not a D* sub, but thanks for the heads up for those who don't venture from their local threads much, and for your efforts concerning the petition ...

Hopefully, D* and/or NFL(depending upon their actual level of involvement in this) will quickly realize they have made an error in judgement ....

Rakesh.S

05-22-05, 03:44 PM

Anyone getting the western conference finals in HDTV on ABC right now?

I called the news desk 10 mins ago, and they still haven't flipped the switch.

Nitewatchman

05-22-05, 04:42 PM

Rakesh,

Yeah .. I just checked and WCPO-DT Cincinnati is sending ABC HD feed*. Still SD from WKEF-DT at 4:40pm EDT.

Sort of weird, with the new site upgrade today, even though I hadn't forgotten my password, I had to click on "forgot my password" and have password reset(assigned a new one) in order to log in ....

* - Edited. Oops. Probably wasn't precise enough, earlier ... IMO, what WCPO-DT is doing to ABC HD feed does not result in "True HD", or anything anyone should be calling "HD"(except that it originates from ABC HD feed) ... It's 1280x360 effective resolution, WCPO-DT is somehow "losing" much of the "unique" pixel data -- even though their encoder is sending 720p, it seems it is being downsampled to 1280x360 somewhere along the line at the station and what we end up with is a fuzzy, "Jaggie" filled, "sort of" line doubled version of 1280x360 .... The jaggies of which ends up looking a lot like REALLY bad interlace artifacts -- even though you'll see them on a native 720p display being sent 720p from STB ... This is all very evident of course if one compares it directly to actual, True HD from WKEF-DT(when they are sending HD) ....

Obviously, since I can only get WSYX-DT occasionally, until/if WCPO-DT Fixes their problem(which began occuring about 9 months ago) I have little interest in WCPO-DT's "quasi-HD", and therefore must rely on WKEF-DT for ABC HD ....

Rakesh.S

05-22-05, 05:24 PM

Jeff, I too had to reset my password.

I actually called twice between 3:30-4:00 and the 2nd time, the news operator told me "the master control operator says that we're sending only the standard feed..we're NOT sending it in WS..That's the way we're getting it."

Since the HD switch flipping has been spot on of late with dramas and sitcoms on ABC, could it be that the switching is no longer controlled locally? I know this was mentioned a little while back. So when they say "that's how we're getting it", maybe they can't do anything at the local level?

I fired off an email to our good friend mr.dtv about this and the continued video freeze issue, referencing the posts in the programming forum about people getting the game in HD.

Also, I noticed there was a crawl on the cable feed of WKEF-HD that said something about contacting the local cable operator if we want continued carriage of the station on cable..there was also something about directv.

Nitewatchman

05-22-05, 05:29 PM

Jeff, I too had to reset my password.
Since the HD switch flipping has been spot on of late with dramas and sitcoms on ABC, could it be that the switching is no longer controlled locally? I know this was mentioned a little while back. So when they say "that's how we're getting it", maybe they can't do anything at the local level?

You're right .. It has been spot on, even for the unexpected HD for the 20/20 special Friday night ...

It Could be ... I don't know if it is true or not, but I had heard a rumor that HD switching for at least some Sinclair stations in the area was being controlled from Columbus ... (much as LIN controls WDTN-DT Switching from Indy) ...

IF this is the case however, WKEF-DT should be able to contact the remote switching location (The Master control room in Columbus or whatever).....

hall

05-22-05, 10:23 PM

Also, I noticed there was a crawl on the cable feed of WKEF-HD that said something about contacting the local cable operator if we want continued carriage of the station on cable... Don't tell me they're pulling that sh*t with TW now.... Are you sure it wasn't directed at Dish customers and telling them to contact their cable co or DirecTV if they want to keep watching that channel ??

Nitewatchman

05-23-05, 10:41 AM

I just saw a crawl on WRGT/DT(OTA feed, not that it matters), they are talking about their retransmission agreement with E*(Dish Network) expiring on 5/31/05, and it said if you use E*, "you may want to contact D*(DirecTV) or your local cable provider" if you still want to get this station ....

Of course, it didn't mention you can also use an antenna ... Broadcasters really need to do a better job promoting their OTA services .... If the cableco's don't like it because of the commercials they like to run on the broadcasters stations, then OTA stations can just pull all those extremely annoying spots ....

hall

05-23-05, 03:00 PM

Of course, it didn't mention you can also use an antenna ... Of course they don't mention that. It wouldn't help their cause. Broadcasters really need to do a better job promoting their OTA services .... If the cableco's don't like it because of the commercials they like to run on the broadcasters stations... If by "broadcasters" you mean the local stations, I think that's the LAST thing they'll do. With cable or satellite re-transmission, they effectively double-dip: They get paid by the advertisers *and* they get paid some fee by the cable and satellite companies. With OTA, they only get the advertiser's fees. Well, there is that "must carry" thing so maybe TWC, or other cablecos don't pay them. Too bad that "must carry" apparently doesn't apply to the digital broadcast...

Nitewatchman

05-23-05, 07:01 PM

Of course they don't mention that. It wouldn't help their cause.
...

Sure it does. Viewers are viewers and help the ratings no matter how they get the signal. In general, stations don't care how viewers get the signal, only that they are watching. They also know that people will find a way if they provide compelling programming which people want to watch ....

But, the reason why carriage of their signal by the cableco is so important to broadcasters is because of the large number of viewers who use cable to access their programming. If we could pretend that by next month, 90% of the households in Dayton suddenly began using OTA to receive the signals from the stations, the stations priorities concerning cable carriage would likely change, and who knows, they might then, very well start demanding large sums from cableco's for the rights to carry their signal ....

I suspect one main Reason why you don't see OTA(analog or DTV/HD) promotion by the broadcasters is likely because the cablecos/sat providers which are carrying their signals(and often providing lucrative advertising contracts with "get cable"/"dish up"/annoying dancing girl in D* ad/etc/etc). just don't like them doing that sort of thing ... In fact, I've seen some info which indicates that is often the case, and who knows, it might even be in some of the retransmission consent agreements between the station+multichannel provider ...

Another reason is because again, in a sense, many broadcasters I've talked to don't seem to think there is a reason to promote OTA, because, again they know if they provide compelling content, people will watch, and will find a way to watch .... So, why spend the $ on it ...

With their DTV/HD signals specifically, another reason for lack of promotion by broadcasters has been(at least this is what I've heard from broadcasters) because neilsen doesn't yet count DTV viewers(via cable or OTA) in the ratings, although I keep hearing that is supposed to change soon.

BTW, Sinclair promotes Free, Over the air HD. See here :

http://www.sbgi.net/

http://www.myfreehdtv.org/

If by "broadcasters" you mean the local stations, I think that's the LAST thing they'll do. With cable or satellite re-transmission, they effectively double-dip: They get paid by the advertisers *and* they get paid some fee by the cable and satellite companies.
...

By "broadcasters" I mean all broadcasters in general.

What you are talking about is the way it often works for cablenets such as the "CNN's" FoxNews/etc - exclusivity agreements are also usually involved --- But, it doesn't quite work that way for cable carriage of local broadcast signals.

It is not necessarily a fee which is involved for retransmission consent of a local broadcaster's signal by the cableco. They often work out "deals" for retransmission consent and I don't know, but I doubt many, if any of them have much, if anything to do with per subscriber fees, or even any sort of fees .... For example, I could imagine one such deal in Dayton area might potentially be/could have been something like: WHIO says : We'll give you retransmission consent for WHIO, IF you also carry our UPN station .. Cableco says OK, but only if the UPN station is available via cable only, you can't make it available OTA, such as on a subchannel on your digital station .......

With OTA, they only get the advertiser's fees.
...

I'm not privy to the details of those private contracts, (and I doubt you are either) but I doubt the local stations are getting much if anything, $ wise from Cable or Sat companies for carriage of their analog signal. Analog is what we are talking about here with E* carriage+Sinclair stations, neither E* or D* currently carry broadcasters digital/HD stations, E*+D* subs who want HD from the locals have to get them OTA at this point.

In fact, that is exactly why in *most* areas currently, many Sinclair digital(HD) stations are not carried on cable, because Sinclair is asking for $, and the cableco's won't pony up. Who knows what makes TW Dayton and Sinclair stations WKEF/WRGT an exception to this, or the time frame of the current agreement, and/or if it will be renewed when the time comes ....

Stations should also realize they can increase market share from OTA only viewers if there were more of them, as OTA only viewers have fewer programming choices, and are therefore that much more likely to be watching YOUR station, since they won't be tuning to "TVLand" instead ....

Well, there is that "must carry" thing so maybe TWC, or other cablecos don't pay them. Too bad that "must carry" apparently doesn't apply to the digital broadcast...

Currently, a station CAN choose must carry for Either it's analog or digital station, but not both. It's not up to the cableco, it's up to the station. If the station knows they have content the cableco wants for its subscribers, they'll likely choose to go the retransmission consent route+ try to neogotiate a "deal" with the cableco/sat provider for carriage of their signal. A station does not even HAVE to invoke must carry rules for carriage of it's signal(whether or not the cableco actually has interest in carrying it) if it does not want to be carried on cable.

dc10forlife

05-23-05, 10:15 PM

Don't tell me they're pulling that sh*t with TW now.... Are you sure it wasn't directed at Dish customers and telling them to contact their cable co or DirecTV if they want to keep watching that channel ??

Looks like contracts are in renogatiation for cable:

See http://www.sbgi.net/misc/cable.shtml

linked from

http://www.wkef22.com/dayton_oh/

dc10forlife

05-23-05, 10:20 PM

[QUOTE=Rakesh.S]Jeff, I too had to reset my password.

I actually called twice between 3:30-4:00 and the 2nd time, the news operator told me "the master control operator says that we're sending only the standard feed..we're NOT sending it in WS..That's the way we're getting it."
QUOTE]

I was suprised to see that they were still playing basketball this past weekend.

Seems like the same issue with respect to the BCS football games this past season -- perhaps a capacity issue with live HD sports and Dayton is on the low end of the totem pole?

hall

05-23-05, 10:21 PM

...but I doubt the local stations are getting much if anything, $ wise from Cable or Sat companies for carriage of their analog signal. Analog is what we are talking about here with E* carriage+Sinclair stations, neither E* or D* currently carry broadcasters digital/HD stations, E*+D* subs who want HD from the locals have to get them OTA at this point. From your link in your next post:

"Satellite Television Providers Pay Broadcasters Cash... These satellite companies routinely pay local broadcasters for the right to rebroadcast their signals and, in fact, it was the addition of local channels to satellite providers’ program schedules which allowed them to obtain many of the subscribers they have today."

digital only

05-23-05, 10:37 PM

Unfortunately, it seems as if broadcasters view OTA broadcasting as a nuicance that they have to deal with to get "must carry" IF they could get must carry without broadcasting, I'll bet most would quit OTA broadcasts

Nitewatchman

05-23-05, 10:44 PM

Looks like contracts are in renogatiation for cable:

See http://www.sbgi.net/misc/cable.shtml
[/url]

That has been on Sinclair's site since Early this year and I think is mainly addressing situations when they haven't been able to come to an agreement for carriage of their digital stations by local cableco's, such as for example, Columbus TW carriage of WTTE-DT/WSYX-DT.

Nitewatchman

05-23-05, 10:50 PM

From your link in your next post:

"Satellite Television Providers Pay Broadcasters Cash... These satellite companies routinely pay local broadcasters for the right to rebroadcast their signals and, in fact, it was the addition of local channels to satellite providers’ program schedules which allowed them to obtain many of the subscribers they have today."

How much do you think Sat providers pay? How much do you think Dish is willing to pay for carriage of Sinclair stations?

Here's another quote from the "Dish Negotiations" link (here: http://www.sbgi.net/misc/dish.shtml ) on Sinclair website:

"Although we continue to negotiate with Echostar, there can be no assurance that these negotiations will be successful and if they are not, Sinclair stations will no longer be able to be viewed by DISH subscribers over their satellite service beginning on Wednesday, June 1, 2005. We regret any inconvenience this may cause to our viewers, but please be aware that Sinclair stations continue to be available for free over-the-air, as well as on virtually all cable television systems located in our markets and on DISH Network's primary competitor, DirecTV (with whom we were recently able to conclude negotiations for an extension of their retransmission consent agreement). "

End quote:

Especially note the portion I bolded, above. So, they specifically mention OTA when addressing the issue in the release on their corporate website, but not in the crawl informing viewers about the issue on the stations .....

Paul210

05-23-05, 11:25 PM

WHIO-DT was having audio problems again tonight for CSI Miami--no center channel dialogue.

dfas34

05-24-05, 09:22 PM

WBDT-DT is in "plenty of signal but blank screen/non-decodable" mode again on Zenith receiver here ...

I haven't been able to receive WBDT-DT on my Humax HFA100. My DTC100 receives it fine. I submitted a comment through their website.

Nitewatchman

05-24-05, 10:21 PM

dfas34,

Thanks for dropping them a note. I sent their CE a email about it yesterday as well.

I did notice that today, when I punch in "18" the Zenith receiver is now going to "18-3" instead of "18-1" as it has been since the storms 5/13, but the streams still won't decode.

Paul210

05-24-05, 10:34 PM

Okay guys, I finally got off my butt and sent them a message, too. I wonder if they even knew there was a problem.

Nitewatchman

05-24-05, 10:52 PM

Paul,

They didn't know the last time this happened, about a month ago --- until I called them -- That time, I called them about it after a week of it being like that(I usually give them a week for stuff like this to give them time to figure it out, since It's no problem here to watch the Cincinnati stations/WSTR-DT in this case), their CE said he would call me back, but he never did -- Although, I did have my phone line tied up all day that day, and he probably wouldn't have been able to reach me. I actually called back again after that, the first time I got their CE on the line, the 2nd time, I got his voice mail.

Anyway, when I did talk to him, he said I was the only person who had called, and that they were not seeing any problem with their off-air monitoring setup/receiver/etc. He also said he would check it out in more detail(and call me back that afternoon), and also noted that storms went through when I first noticed the problem(which was on 4/22 on that occurance) ... It was about 3 or 4 days or so after my call that they finally got it fixed ... but, only temporarily, until the next big line of storms came through on 5/13, LOL+sigh ...

---------------------

Oh, BTW, I also sent a email a couple of days ago to WKEF/WRGT engineers as well as one of the Sinclair engineers in Columbus(he had asked me to contact him about issues) ... Among other things, I told them we were still getting the video freezes .... I haven't heard anything back from them yet ... If I get a chance this week, I might try to follow up with a call to WKEF engineer ....

Which reminds me ... the last time I did talk to WKEF engineer, he mentioned that in addition to working on DD 5.1, they are also working on getting WKEF-DT to Full power(138KW ERP) by 7-1-05. They are currently at 95.5KW ERP, so that's not a big change but might help some a bit with their signal.

hall

05-26-05, 03:51 PM

WHIO-DT was having audio problems again tonight for CSI Miami--no center channel dialogue. We started to watch that episode last night and gave up. My audio receiver never indicated that it was getting a DD5.1 signal either... I thought we'd be okay if we used the TV's speaker and eliminate DD5.1 but that didn't work either.

The audio was worse more than it was better for the first 10 minutes or so. Did they fix it at any point or was the whole show hosed ??

Paul210

05-26-05, 04:03 PM

Hall,

I'm not sure if they fixed it. It sounded like they were trying to do something, but I didn't want to wait around and miss half the show, so I bailed to WKRC-DT. I noticed the same thing with the audio receiver that you did--it didn't switch to DD5.1. With the exception of their audio problems, WHIO-DT looks to be a whole lot better than they were before. Now, about those pesky blue lines...

Paul

hall

05-26-05, 04:38 PM

I recall some audio problems a few months back but it only lasted maybe two weeks or so, if that. In fact, I only recall it happening on one show: Everybody Loves Raymond.

I don't see the "pesky blue lines" others have mentioned. I remember others here mentioning it and that only OTA see it (??) and that TWC customers don't (??).

Paul210

05-26-05, 04:52 PM

I don't know...it may have something to do with ota vs. cable. I've seen them with two different brands of ota receivers. They've been there since I went digital in 2002. They are 4 razor-thin, evenly spaced vertical blue lines in the lower left quadrant of the display and they are quite evident in darker scenes on my 50" display. It's not nearly as distracting as compression artifacts, though! Thankfully, those are gone since they dropped the sub.

blabes12

05-26-05, 07:17 PM

I see those lines as well, 42" Sony EDTV Plasma with Time Warner and 8300HD DVR. As Paul210 mentions, they're most noticeable during dark scenes.

hall

05-26-05, 08:06 PM

Only in the lower-left ?? I'll look for 'em..... My TV's settings are a bit on the dark side so maybe that "helps" hide them.

Nitewatchman

05-27-05, 01:19 AM

Another data point on WBDT-DT ... Hisense(USDTV) Receiver has no problems decoding it and remapping to 26-1 ... No program guide info though .. Still not decodable/blank screen on Zenith HDV420 ...

Rakesh.S

05-27-05, 09:07 AM

The WHIO blue lines are almost invisible on TWC, but you can find them if you look hard enough. This leads me to believe that TWC is recompressing or re-encoding the signal in some way. OTA looks a little sharper, but those blue lines during dark scenes are annoying, considering that most CBS shows are dark and poorly lit.

hall

05-27-05, 12:38 PM

We watched Cold Case last night, which has many dark scenes, and I couldn't see anything....

The head engineer at TW here in Dayton told me that they pass the signal on to us as they receive it. I can't find the e-mail now, but he did state that they do NOT re-compress or re-encode the signal. Has that changed since he told me this ?? I don't know.

onulaw76

05-27-05, 02:19 PM

Been a couple of weeks since it was brought up... Anyone hear of any new channels coming to TWC? NBC or WB in HD? ESPN2 HD? ESPNU? Thanks in advance for any insight!

Paul210

05-27-05, 02:31 PM

We watched Cold Case last night, which has many dark scenes, and I couldn't see anything....

That's a good thing.

dc10forlife

05-27-05, 06:29 PM

Been a couple of weeks since it was brought up... Anyone hear of any new channels coming to TWC? NBC or WB in HD? ESPN2 HD? ESPNU? Thanks in advance for any insight!

WB in HD is available on the service mode of my SA3250HD box. 5c setting is copy freely, so I can record via firewire to my computer.

ESPN2 and ESPNU won't be decided locally.

As far as NBC, who knows. Hopefully WXIX-DT will be added in time for the Bearcats.

I would also like to have WCWT FM added to the digital music channels.

hall

05-28-05, 08:44 AM

There's a thread mentioning pixellation happening on some CBS stations. I've seen this pretty routinely with WHIO but since no one in this thread has mentioned it, assumed it was *my* problem (my set-top). Has anyone else noticed it ??

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=543319

browerjs

05-31-05, 08:36 AM

Was Hell's Kitchen supposed to be in HD? If it was WRGT missed it last night. I can't seem to find any good info whether or not it should've been, only this link:

http://www.wflxfox29.com/Global/story.asp?S=2201138&nav=2JWjQ8dD

dusterscott

06-02-05, 09:22 AM

Did anybody watch the Eagles concert last night on NBC HD? I checked the Dayton and Cincinnati channels and was not impressed with the audio mix. The center channel seemed muted to me and the highs weren't very dynamic. It didn't sound like there was anything above 10,000 Hz coming out of my tweeters. I thought the picture quality was good.

browerjs

06-02-05, 03:56 PM

I watched it, and thought it looked and sounded great.

Paul210

06-02-05, 04:09 PM

I didn't even know it was on. I'm kicking myself now.

browerjs

06-02-05, 07:51 PM

I forgot how much I liked the eagles until I watched it. I'll definately be picking up the DVD on 6/16

dusterscott

06-02-05, 08:34 PM

I highly recommend their Hell Freezes Over dvd. DTS soundtrack too.

dfas34

06-06-05, 10:31 PM

Still can't get pic & sound for WBDT-DT on the Humax. I sent another email. Anyone have a phone# to call?

dusterscott

06-07-05, 06:08 AM

Yeah, I still can't get picture or sound for 26-1. It's been a while now. I get the channel information and that's it. Rescans don't help.

Nitewatchman

06-07-05, 10:25 AM

Still can't get pic & sound for WBDT-DT on the Humax. I sent another email. Anyone have a phone# to call?

Well, as recently as a month ago, they used to have the following info up on their website, but I see they've redesigned their website since then :

"Questions regarding reception of Dayton's WB can be directed to (937) 384-9226 or by writing to ENGINEERING c/o Dayton's WB, 2589 Corporate Place, Miamisburg, OH 45342."

:end quote

Who knows, but I assume the Phone # is probably still the same - When I've called it in the past, I asked for "Engineering" and either got through to their CE or his Voice Mail.

The last time I called about the last incidence(back in April, This time they've been "blank screen mode" on some receivers since 5/13/05) of their PSIP issue/"blank screen mode" on some receivers, he had said I was the only person who had called, that they weren't seeing any problem with their off-air monitoring and that he would check it and call me back .... Well, he didn't call me back(it may have been difficult for him to get through as I had the Phone # I gave him very tied up that day), but they did fix the issue within a few days of my call ....

Evidently, unless something has changed recently since they've updated their website, noone seems to read the comments submitted via email ... That did not use to be the case however, prior to about a year or so ago, I used to allways get a response via that method ...

Update: Well, I was looking in the wrong place. The phone #'s and engineering "message" is still there, and are currently in the "Community" section on their new website, here:

http://www.wb26tv.com/site_index.aspx?section=community

dusterscott

06-07-05, 10:39 AM

I just called and left the engineer a voice mail message. Maybe if enough people leave him a message, they'll do something about this.

s1059197

06-07-05, 10:53 AM

WB in HD is available on the service mode of my SA3250HD box. 5c setting is copy freely, so I can record via firewire to my computer.

1450kHz, have you been able to see WBDT at all (when it's working) on your tuner card? If so, can you tell me the RF channel number you're seeing it on? I recently did a channel re-scan on my set and it didn't pick up any new stations.

Phil

Nitewatchman

06-07-05, 01:28 PM

Maybe if enough people leave him a message, they'll do something about this.

I agree ... Since their issue is only effecting certian receiver models and it seems about 1/2 of the receiver models out there aren't seeing any sort of problem, I think it's probably a good idea for everyone who is having the problem to contact them and tell them what receiver you have ...

I had their CE's email address from previous correspondance and during this last occurance, had sent him a message about the issue on my Zenith HDV420 receiver on 5/22, a little over a a week after the issue began occuring again on Fri, 5/13. I have not received a response. (btw, I also sent him a message when I noticed the earlier april/early may occurance of this problem was fixed on ~5/6) anyway, I might try again via phone if they don't soon get the issue fixed ....

My best *guess* concerning what is going on is, Some receivers can ignore certian errors in a station's PSIP tables(including relationships to MPEG2 PAT/PMT tables), but, others need certian info in fields in those tables to be correct in order to be able to properly identify and decode the datastreams ... my understanding is that There are several fields in the tables which can be involved -- I've heard for instance that some of the Samsung receivers can especially have problems if the SLD(Service location descriptor) field in PSIP VCT(virtual channel table) is not set up properly, or does not agree with info in the MPEG2 PMT(program management table)

It would be easier to diagnose if I had a way to examine the info from PSIP/MPEG 2 program tables --- AVSforum member Dr1394 did design(I think he may still be working on it) a program to dump/analyze this info, If I had a ATSC card in my PC I'd probably see if I could get it from him ....

The strange thing in this circumstance(or at least when this occured in late april when I talked to their CE) is that their CE told me they had not changed anything with their PSIP, and, the problem first surfaced just during/after some storms moved through the area in mid~late april(well, actually I think it had happened once before in the past 6 months, but they got on it that time relatively quickly) ... Then, after they fixed it about 1.5 weeks later, it was about another 1.5 weeks when storms moved through on 5/13 that the issue started happening again ...

This would seem to perhaps indicate that some piece of equipment which plays some part in their PSIP implementation(generally, this could be their PSIP generator, MPEG2 encoder, or multiplexer) either experienced some sort of current spike, or lost power during the storm and perhaps needs reconfiguring(rebooting) ---

Of course, if the receiver they are using for off-air monitoring is one of those models that can "handle" the issue, they may not have any good way of knowing that there is a problem until a "good number" of folks can get through to them ...

dfas34

06-07-05, 08:11 PM

I left a message at 384-9226 as well.

Nitewatchman

06-07-05, 09:37 PM

At 9:35pm 6/7, I see that for the first time since 5/13 WBDT-DT is now decoding perfectly on Zenith HDV420 receiver ....

Thanks to all who have contacted WBDT-DT concerning their PSIP problem ...

dusterscott

06-07-05, 10:51 PM

Yep, I had to rescan, but I'm now receiving it too! Cool! I think I'll call tomorrow and thank him!

dfas34

06-07-05, 11:14 PM

Yep, I've got sight and sound on the Humax.

Donald Jones

06-10-05, 11:21 AM

Sorry to tell you guys this, but there are some older HD receivers which will not respond to the new PSIP parameters. I called Zenith on my HD420. The receiver was never designed to the current PSIP system. They referred me to LG where they exchanged my unit for an LG 3100 for $85. The 3100 works great with the remapping and program guide.

Nitewatchman

06-10-05, 11:42 AM

Donald, 1st off welcome to AVSforum.

Sorry to tell you guys this, but there are some older HD receivers which will not respond to the new PSIP parameters. I called Zenith on my HD420. The receiver was never designed to the current PSIP system. They referred me to LG where they exchanged my unit for an LG 3100 for $85. The 3100 works great with the remapping and program guide.

You are correct that Zenith HDV420 does not support/display Program Guide Info(PSIP EIT/ETT tables are used to send this info, Station/service ID is also not supported). Nor does it support STT clock(Time/date info sent via PSIP). It was not designed to support those functions, whereas it's sucesssor, the LG LST-3100a does(hence the $85 dollar charge for your exchange).

However, it is not correct to say it "will not respond to the new PSIP parameters". It DOES fully support PSIP channel remapping, as well as the "vchip" ratings info via PSIP. In fact, I wish it wouldn't solely rely on PSIP for channel remapping and it should have the option to turn PSIP "off" as is the case with RCA DTC-100, or, it should also have the ability to "fall back" to MPEG2 PMT/PAT info when a station is sending improperly configured PSIP (HDV420 is NOT the only receiver to have this problem).

BTW, Even receivers older than HDV420 support PSIP, such as DTC-100 which even allows you to turn on/off the PSIP functions. DTC-100(@1999) is a 2nd(or 1st?) generation receiver(which does support EPG via PSIP, btw), HDV420(end of 2002~2003 when LG3100a suceeded it) was Zenith's 1st 4th generation receiver.

From what I have experienced, HDV420 works perfectly with PSIP, including Channel remapping(which is one of the few PSIP functions it does support/display to the user), AS LONG AS the station is sending certian properly configured fields(info/data) in their PSIP/MPEG2 PMT/PAT tables. If I ever come across a situation where It's possible to detirmine that a station is sending 100% proper PSIP info but that station is still "non-decodable" by Zenith HDV420(hasn't happened yet), I'll be sure to let Zenith know about it, and will fully expect them to fix the problem for no charge ....

It was the case that PSIP implementation by stations was a "voluntary thing". And I expect it is probably the case that up until very recently, because most stations weren't fully implementing PSIP(or weren't properly implementing PSIP) is probably why Zenith decided not to utilize EPG, and STT info/etc on HDV420.

But as of earlier this year, stations are now REQUIRED by FCC to FULLY support PSIP A65B standard, including program guide info out to 12 hours, and STT info accurate to within 1 second of GPS time. They are also required for the "main" channel to remap via PSIP to the analog channel #.

This new PSIP requirement for stations happened relatively quickly, and therefore there have been some "problems", just as is the case that there have been problems over the past several years with stations not sending "fully complaint" PSIP tables and receivers(such as HDV420, some of the Samsung receivers rely on proper PSIP even moreso than the HDV420) which rely heavily on PSIP in order to identify+properly decode the data streams.

HDV420 also works with EIA-708 Closed captions, as long as the station "fully" properly implements EIA-708 captions -- only a few stations in our area are doing this. I'm not sure what the requirements are concerning timetable for full EIA-708 functionality from stations is concerned, but If I recall correctly, in HDV420's case, in order for Captions(EIA-708 is all it supports, it doesn't support EIA-608 captions at all) to work, properly configured PSIP tables at the station is also involved.