Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 11

Nitewatchman

06-21-05, 04:37 PM

Which is it, an FCC requirement or a contractual agreement then ?? If it's an FCC requirement, who do I report about the lack of WDTN on TWC, TW or WDTN ??

It is not, nor has it ever been, in any way shape or form a FCC requirement for broadcasters to ALLOW Cable to CARRY a broadcaster's signal - digital or analog. It is currently a FCC requirement for the Cableco to provide the DTV(digital, which CAN mean HD) signal for any local broadcast signal they ARE carrying on their lowest cost, basic tier(including via analog cable).

Broadcasters do not have to make their signal available for cable companies to carry if they don't want to. They pretty much all want to, for obvious reasons it's just sometimes a question of HOW they want it to happen.

Broadcasters can either : #

#1). elect to use "must-carry" rules(but ONLY IF the cableco headend in question is within the coverage area of the stations broadcast signal - and note that must carry doesn't apply to low power broadcasters, such as WRCX-LP 40, WWRD-LP 55 Dayton) for EITHER the digital or analog station(but not both), or :

#2) they can elect to negotiate with the cableco via "retransmission consent" rules for either(or both) the digital or analog signal.

When a broadcaster has programming that is in demand by cable subscribers, wise broadcasters elect to use retransmission consent rules instead of must carry rules. If the broadcaster elects to negotiate with the cableco under retransmission consent rules, the broadcaster/cableco in question work out(or get stuck in negotiations) a deal concerning the details involved. For instance, a station might reqiure the cableco pay a certain amount for the rights to broadcast the station's HD programming, or, they might work out a deal where if a station agrees to carry a multicast subchannel(such as say WLWT/WCPO's weather channels in Cincinnati) the cableco can carry the HD for "free" ...

Broadcasters broadcast over the air, the programming(Including HD - at least currently from all stations in our area) is available for FREE to viewers who use OTA -- broadcasting is their business, and via their affiliation agreements with the broadcast networks -- the local affiliate has the SOLE distribution rights within the markets for, say NBC HD programming. So, speaking at least in
"regulatory" terms, OTA is their "primary" means of delivering their product to viewers. Distribution of the local broadcasters signal by Cable/DBS is a purely optional, "Secondary" means of distributing the signal to viewers. Obviously, however, in "real" terms, cable carriage becomes of great interest to the broadcasters because that's where most of their viewers are.

Now -- It can of course get complicated with DTV and during the transistion --- FCC rules say that a broadcasters digital station MUST provide One Free, over the air to viewers via MPEG2/ATSC that is equivilent in quality to the analog station --- Meaning ONE SD service ... HD is not "required" from broadcasters in any shape or form ...

It is not only possible that a station could choose to send just a single SD service free to air, but they could also send other SD's(or do datacasting) or a HD service for free OTA, OR via conditional access only - even using other codec's besides MPEG2 -- and not only charge the cableco(and in this case take the HD service off the basic tier) but they could also encrpyt the HD and charge OTA viewers for it, or, they could offer it free-to air to OTA viewers but, the PRIMARY free to air SD service which is provided to OTA viewers in this case would be all the cableco would likely be required to carry on their basic tier, if say the broadcaster asked more from the cableco for the HD service, or if they decided to designate their SD service as their "primary" service instead of their HD service(the latter being the case with all the full service stations in the area presently) -- In which case, it would be the SD Free-to-air service which would be all that would "qualify" for having to be on the cableco's basic tier.

I didn't actually see anything about this in the rules, and I have never heard of it happening, but I suppose it is also possible --- and you would think it would be permissable that no matter what the circumstances : One would think a broadcaster could request in their agreement with the cableco(if via retransmission consent rules) that their DTVsignal/service the cableco is carrying, and that is also available OTA NOT be on the basic tier, but I can't imagine why in the world they would want to do that .....

It's the way it is, BUT, If you think about it, in a way, it may not really be fair for the cableco *if* the retransmission consent agreement involves the cableco paying reasonably large "seperate" sums to a broadcaster for the rights to carry their HD signal, which they are then required by FCC rules to put on the basic tier ...... So, it seems like to me, if this is a sticking issue in the neogotiations between stations+the cableco, IF the broadcaster agrees to it, the cableco ought to be allowed to put it on a seperate tier and charge more ... Then again though, as a broadcaster you want the widest possible audience, and likely WANT your HD signal on the basic tier ... and, the station's network of affiliation probably wants it there too ....

As for the future and cable carriage of broadcast DTV stations .... of course .... "specifications are subject to change without notice" .... For instance, Broadcasters are continuing to fight for cable-must-carry requirements for ALL program streams instead of just their "primary" service ....

digital only

06-21-05, 07:46 PM

Thanks for the info Nitewatchman. One thing though. I understand that the public broadcast stations are required by law to elect "must carry" . If so, they couldn't withhold thier signal if they wanted to. Also, say WHIO or another network station refuses to allow thier signal to be re-transmitted, can the cableco import say the network feed from Columbus? I thought though that stations who elected to negotioate re-transmit rights instead of "must carry" were required to negotiate in good faith. That would mean they couldn't outright refuse to allow re-transmittion right?

Nitewatchman

06-21-05, 08:21 PM

Thanks for the info Nitewatchman. One thing though. I understand that the public broadcast stations are required by law to elect "must carry" . If so, they couldn't withhold thier signal if they wanted to.

Where did you hear that at? I'd be interested in seeing that info ..... I've certianly never heard such a thing ... Now, they may not be allowed to seek compensation via retransmission consent, but I don't think they are required by law to allow the cableco to carry their signals at all(of course, they WANT the cableco to carry their signals however) ...

Now, I DO know that, even without "must carry" rules for multiple streams from a digital station, the cablecos in our area carry pretty much all the local PBS stations multicast channels -- I think this is because Cableco's are usually quite intrested in carrying the PBS services I think because it helps them to meet their public interest obligations. And of course, it is pretty much the goal/mandate of a non-commerical station(such as PBS) to make their way into homes in any way possible.

If so, they couldn't withhold thier signal if they wanted to. Also, say WHIO or another network station refuses to allow thier signal to be re-transmitted, can the cableco import say the network feed from Columbus? I thought though that stations who elected to negotioate re-transmit rights instead of "must carry" were required to negotiate in good faith. That would mean they couldn't outright refuse to allow re-transmittion right?

Sure they could. As I said before, unless something has changed since I researched this stuff, they don't have to provide their signals to the cableco at ALL if they don't want to - that's in "good faith" as well. I can't imagine a station not wanting to, or what their network of affiliation would say about it, though ...

The Dayton area cableco could carry Cincinnati or Columbus STATIONS(In fact, Some Areas even North dayton carry WXIX Fox Cincinnati, but the Fox programming is blocked out), but since the local affiliate has the SOLE RIGHTS for the distribution of the network programming in their market, the cableco would have to black out the network programming from the out of market station - Unless of course the local station agrees to allowing an out-of-market station(or net feed) be the provider inside the market of the network programming ... It is a little different with PBS stations, and also depends upon WHERE you live .. such as in overlapping market areas such as occurs in South Dayton with Cincinnati+Dayton stations.

There seems to be a lot of confusion about "Must carry", understandable because this stuff is very confusing, and even moreso when it comes to DTV ...

"Must carry" is a way for stations to insure their signal is being carried on Local cable systems(so the cableco can't refuse carriage of the station's signal because they aren't interested in providing the programming to their viewers), that's pretty much it, I believe.

"Must Carry" only applies when the cable company head-end that serves a specific community is within the Grade B(for analog stations, for DTV that equates to 41dbu contour on UHF, 36DBu contour on hi-VHF, and 28dbu contour on lo-VHF) signal contour. Since Cincinnati station's coverage area actually covers all of Dayton, and Dayton Signals pretty much cover all of Cincinnati, actually, A Cincinnati station COULD invoke must carry in Dayton ... but, much of the programming(such as network programming) would still be blacked out from the station from other market ....And, I suspect that in many cases, Dayton/Cincinnati stations probably have agreements among each other concerning which areas of their coverage areas(especially those outside of the market boundry -- which is different from the coverage area in this case) they will "serve" ...

digital only

06-21-05, 08:32 PM

The PBS requirement to elect must carry was on an article in broadcasting in cable or multichannel news about the discussions about dual must carry and retransmission rights with regard to network stations. If I find it again, I'll post a link

Nitewatchman

06-21-05, 08:47 PM

Digital Only,

Follows is a link, and selections from a fact sheet for consumers from FCC on Cable carriage of broadcast stations(covers must carry+Retransmission consent) . It says in relevant sections(which I've bolded) That noncommercial stations CAN'T choose retransmission consent, and therefore IF they seek carriage on a local system they MUST elect must carry rules, but it does not say they HAVE to seek cable carriage at all ....Note the word "MAY" in the first bolded section, and also note that where I've included bolded comments and the Red OR it is saying every three years stations have a choice to either choose to NOT obtain cable carriage of their signal at all, or to choose must carry or retransmission consent .... :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/cblbdcst.html

(Note: I posted the links to more detailed info on rules for cable carriage of digital stations in a post around Thanksgiving 2004 somewhere back in this thread )

Here's a bit from the above fact sheet w/Q&A :

Quote:

FCC FACT SHEET

CABLE CARRIAGE OF BROADCAST STATIONS

The Communications Act prohibits cable operators and other multichannel video programming distributors from retransmitting commercial television, low power television and radio broadcast signals without first obtaining the broadcaster's consent. This permission is commonly referred to as "retransmission consent" and may involve some compensation from the cable company to the broadcaster for the use of the signal. Alternately, local commercial and noncommercial television broadcast stations may require a cable operator that serves the same market as the broadcaster to carry its signal. A demand for carriage is commonly referred to as "must-carry." If the broadcast station asserts its must-carry rights, the broadcaster cannot demand compensation from the cable operator. While retransmission consent and must-carry are distinct and function separately, they are related in that commercial broadcasters are required to choose once every three years, on a system-by-system basis, whether to obtain carriage OR continue carriage by choosing between must carry and retransmission consent. .......

[Section From the Q & A Section] :

Why must my cable system carry so many broadcast stations?

A: The Communications Act requires cable operators to set aside a specified portion of their channels for local commercial and non-commercial television stations. A cable operator with 12 or fewer channels must set aside up to three channels for local commercial television stations and at least one channel for a local noncommercial educational television broadcast station. Cable operators with more than 12 channels must set aside one third of their channel capacity for local commercial stations. Cable systems with between 13 and 36 channels must carry at least one, but need not carry more than three, local noncommercial educational television stations. Cable systems with more than 36 channels must carry all local noncommercial educational television stations requesting carriage with some exceptions for duplication of signals. Local television stations choosing the must-carry option and those that have negotiated agreements for retransmission with the cable system count towards this quota......

Q: What happens if a station chooses the must-carry option?

A: Must-carry stations are generally guaranteed carriage on the cable system on a preferred channel number. Local commercial television stations have been given the option of electing must-carry status or retransmission consent status, while local noncommercial television stations may only seek carriage on a must-carry basis.

Commercial stations that have elected must-carry status have the option of requesting carriage on the same channel number that they occupy over-the-air, on the channel number that the station occupied on July 19, 1985, or on the channel that the station occupied on January 1, 1992. However, television stations may also be carried on any channel that is mutually agreed upon by the station and the cable operator.

Q: Why does my cable system offer several channels with similar programming formats (for instance, religious, Hispanic, shopping) not previously carried?

A: Some stations may have been added to your system because they are considered local for your area and they have requested, and are entitled to, carriage under the must-carry rules. Commercial stations are considered local if they are assigned to the same television market as your cable system. Noncommercial stations are considered local if they are licensed to cities within 50 miles of your cable system or their signals meet certain technical engineering standards at the cable system's reception facility. Other channels with these formats may be cable networks and are carried at the discretion of the cable operator.

Q: What happens if my cable operator and a particular station do not reach a retransmission consent agreement?

A: Until the cable operator and the television station reach an agreement, the cable operator is prohibited from carrying that station's signal. Once an agreement is reached, the station can be put back on the cable system immediately. In addition, every three years broadcast stations must decide whether to demand carriage on local cable systems without receiving compensation or elect to negotiate a retransmission consent agreement.

The initial election between must-carry or retransmission consent was made on June 17, 1993 and was effective on October 6, 1993. The most recent election occurred on October 1, 1999 and was effective January 1, 2000. The next election will occur on October 1, 2002 and will become effective January 1, 2003. All subsequent elections will occur every three years.

Q: What can the FCC do if a broadcaster and a cable operator fail to reach a retransmission consent agreement?

A: Generally, the FCC is not authorized to participate in discussions between television stations and cable systems regarding retransmission consent agreements. Furthermore, the FCC cannot tell a cable operator which stations or program services to delete in order to comply with the must-carry requirement. If you have comments regarding changes in the programming offered by your cable system, you should contact your cable operator. Information on how to contact your cable operator is included on your cable bill.

Q: Will my cable bill increase as a result of retransmission consent agreements?

A: In return for allowing a cable system to carry its signal, a television station may require the payment of a fee or other consideration (for instance, carriage of another programming service or advertising time). Any new or additional costs incurred as a result of retransmission consent agreements may be passed through to cable subscribers.

Q: Should I expect more changes in the programming on my cable system in the future?

A: Yes, the law provides that once every three years broadcast stations may elect between must-carry and retransmission consent. Fortunately, most broadcasters and cable operators agree that the least amount of change possible is the best, for both themselves and the subscribers. To the extent possible, it is anticipated that cable systems will keep changes to a minimum while they comply with any changes in election by broadcasters. In addition, the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed the constitutionality of the federal must-carry law. Therefore, there may be further changes either in response to the Court's decision or to the FCC's refinement of its must-carry regulations. In either case, the FCC's rules require cable operators to notify subscribers 30 days prior to any change in the broadcast stations they carry, or the channel number of the stations they carry. Thus, your cable operator should keep you informed about any changes that will affect your cable service.

:end quotes

Update: Hmm, you know this part of the above is confusing to me:

quote:

A: Some stations may have been added to your system because they are considered local for your area and they have requested, and are entitled to, carriage under the must-carry rules. Commercial stations are considered local if they are assigned to the same television market as your cable system. Noncommercial stations are considered local if they are licensed to cities within 50 miles of your cable system or their signals meet certain technical engineering standards at the cable system's reception facility.

:end quote

Update : Reading that, I am confused by one part of it -- because, when I was reading/researching the actual must carry rules themselves(instead of a "fact sheet"), I'm pretty sure it was as I said in an earlier post(about the out of market stations and the signal contours, which is what they are talking about where they say "or their signals meet certian technical engineering standards at the cable system's reception facility") for not only non-commercial stations, but commercial stations as well. Maybe I either read the actual rules wrong, or the FCC's Q&A writers were oversimplyfing a bit ...

In any event, it doesn't make much sense to me that if a person could receive the out-of market station via antenna(because they are in the coverage area of the stations), the station couldn't also invoke must-carry in that community, even if it is in another market ... It Does make sense though that network programming would be blacked out from the out-of market station, when it's also airing on the in-market affiliate(even if the in-market affiliate is not carried on the local cable system because they don't have an agreement with the local cableco for carriage of their signal), since the in-market affiliate has the sole rights to distribution of that programming within the market ... Then again, a person of course has the "right" to receive any station they can(in market, out of market, whatever) OTA via antenna ....

Also, for instance -- if we pretend that Dayton didn't have, say a CBS Affiliate -- Even though the Dayton/Cincinnati market boundry would still be the same, it would seem to me that WKRC CBS Cincinnati, and their CBS programming(whose coverage area reaches North of I-70) COULD be carried on Dayton Cable via must-carry(since the signal covers dayton), even though retransmission consent rules would probably make more sense for them in this case ...

osu fan

06-22-05, 12:08 PM

dfas34

06-22-05, 10:41 PM

WBDT-DT appears to be having it's receiver specific PSIP problem again.

Lost the ability to decode them on Zenith receiver this weekend(sometime Sunday I think). USDTV(hisense) receiver still seeing them just fine.

called WBDT and left a message at 384-9226. No pic/sound on the Humax HFA100 (fairly new receiver). I use it as a secondary receiver downstairs so I don't notice the problems when they happen. I'm still using the mighty dtc100 upstairs as primary due to its vcr control. No problem receiving WBDT on the dtc.

browerjs

06-23-05, 08:24 AM

Sorry about the OT, but i figured that one of you might know...

I have a cable outlet that goes to my cable modem and a TV directly, via a coax splitter. When I have the television on for about 5-7 minutes, channels in a range from 26-32 just drop (snowy, can't see or hear anything). I tried some better quality splitters and I see this problem no matter what kind of splitter I use. Any ideas?

hall

06-23-05, 09:23 AM

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 10:36 AM

called WBDT and left a message at 384-9226. No pic/sound on the Humax HFA100 (fairly new receiver). I use it as a secondary receiver downstairs so I don't notice the problems when they happen. I'm still using the mighty dtc100 upstairs as primary due to its vcr control. No problem receiving WBDT on the dtc.

I called them this morning as well, and had a nice conversation with a fellow there.

They said they are working on the issue and doing their best to get it straightened out, he said they are also working on getting EPG info via PSIP working.

The fellow I talked to said he has a DTC-100 at home and it is having problems seeing the PSIP info properly from WBDT-DT -- It won't remap correctly to 26.1, as he is seeing it on 18-3, even with the "off-air guides" function turned on(turning off "off-air guides" turns OFF PSIP alltogether, in which case DTC-100 relies solely on MPEG2 to identify the datastreams).

They said they are using a Samsung 151 for off air monitoring at the station, and have not seen the issue with it. -- However, he also mentioned they allways have the 151 tuned to WBDT-DT 24/7 -- Of course, if the 151 is seeing the issue, you would probably have to either tune to another station+then back, or try a rescan for it to have the problem ... I mentioned this, and he said he would try it to see what happened ....

BruteWes

06-23-05, 10:52 AM

Hi everyone. I was wondering what the OTA HD picture quality was like compared to Time Warner local HD picture quality around the middletown/trenton area.

I bought a house in trenton and am getting a HDTV, and need to know if I should pay extra for the built in tuner. Is the OTA PQ any better than what TWC provides? Is it worth the extra money for the built in tuner?

Thanks!

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 11:05 AM

BruteWes,

I don't use cable, but The OTA HD vs. PQ from HD PQ of the broadcast stations TW carries should be the same. The only difference there should be might involve the "quality" of the output from the STB/Receiver/s used.

In Middletown/Trenton, you would be served by TW Cincinnati, and would get the Cincinnati HD locals TW carries, so you might want to check out the Cincinnati thread.

TW Cincinnati carries almost all of the Cincinnati HD locals -- EXCEPT, they don't carry the WB HD Cincinnati station currently, You'll need OTA for that. You'll also need OTA If you want to receive the Dayton HD stations, as I don't think TW Cincinnati carries those. (TW Cincinnati's service boundary, And the Cincinnati DMA(market area) reaches North of Middletown, to about Butler/Montgomery county line).

As for whether or not it is "worth it" to have a built in, or external ATSC tuner .. IMO, Sure it is. OTA programming is free -- you have the hardware(which costs less than a few months of cable service) and you get the programming for FREE. You are in coverage area of both Dayton+Cincinnati OTA HD stations, and can get more HD programming -- such as WB HD, which TW Cincy doesn't offer, as well as at times different NFL HD games from Dayton or Cincinnati/etc/etc. You also have a "backup" when your cable goes out ....

BruteWes

06-23-05, 11:13 AM

Well, really they are free through TW as well, because I will be paying $50 for cable anyway, and that includes the local HD channels...I don't have to pay extra for them.

It would be nice to get some Dayton channels as well, especially for NFL games as that is about the main source of local programming that I will watch.

How much am I looking to spend for an antenna to get the OTA HD channels?

browerjs

06-23-05, 11:29 AM

Can't really help other than to comment that when I got cable installed about a year ago (had satellite for years), the tech acted like the RR line was "sacred" and NOT to be touched. How is your cable wiring done ?? I have one splitter (1-to-2) in the outdoor box with one leg going to the cable modem and the other feeding a 2nd splitter for (2) TVs.

The line is not split in the box, I made sure of it. Didn't want more then one split. When i had cable originally installed i remember the tech saying the exact same thing, as he reluctantly put a splitter on my connection. I don't remember always having the problem, just in the past 5-6 months. I just think it's strange that it's always the same channels I have problems with. It's also strange, because 32, goes out before 31, and 31 before 30, as the lower channels slowly degrade in quality. And of course, when i'm watching tv while i'm using my PC, I usually want to be watching the Golf Channel (30), ESPN (26), ESPN2 (27), or FSN (29).

Q of BanditZ

06-23-05, 11:31 AM

Glad this thread got a bump. I live in Lima and TWC basically owns the town.

What I've found is: Their hardware is complete trash. The PQ difference between using the cable straight to the TV vs. going through one of their STBs first was pronounced enough that even my mom noticed it immediately. Service and reliability are fairly solid. Choices and prices on programming are decent enough.

I'm considering OTA and I'm considering satellite. I'd like to hear from people anywhere remotely near my region and any stories or experiences and tips they'd like to share.

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 11:51 AM

Well, really they are free through TW as well, because I will be paying $50 for cable anyway, and that includes the local HD channels...I don't have to pay extra for them.

It all depends on how you look at it, I suppose, but I think you are definitely paying for the delivery of the broadcast stations. Because, Regardless, It costs the cableco $ to provide the broadcast stations on their systems, I'm sure you're cable bill could be lower if cableco's didn't carry ANY broadcast stations.

BTW, as we've been discussing here ... IF you get a set with not only a built in ATSC tuner, but also one which is "digital cable ready" and has a built in QAM tuner(probably a cablecard slot as well), you can receive the Cincinnati HD stations via cable+the built-in QAM tuner with even the lowest cost "basic" tier of service. This is currently a FCC regulation that applies to most cableco's(including TW Cincinnati).

From my point of view, You pay $50 a month for cable, up until I added dish network(SD no locals) last september, I've paid nothing to receive TV programming(except for the hardware) for almost 40 years now - The commericals, and purchasing products which are adverstised are of course how all of us "pay" for it .....

How much am I looking to spend for an antenna to get the OTA HD channels?

Probably in the range of $20~100 or so for antenna(+coax and ground clamps/ground blocks/ground wire etc for proper grounding if you do an outdoor antenna install).

You have several options. You can try a indoor antenna(keep receipts so you can return them if it's not good enough) -- The "silver sensor", or radio shack Double bow-tie would be a good choice for indoor antenna for you for Dayton(whose digital stations are all on UHF), which *might* work well for you. A better idea would probably be a Outdoor antenna aimed at Dayton --- such as RS U-75R -- I'm not sure what their price is on one of those now, but I've seen it as low as $20 (their "standard" price is probably around $50). CM4221 which is available online from several sources is also around $20, and an even better antenna than the U-75R.

If you want both Cincinnati+Dayton, you'll also likely need either a #1).rotor(and perhaps a antenna with VHF capability for WCPO-DT, ABC HD Cincinnati -- which you would also be getting via TW of course - There are several VHF/UHF combo antennas at RS(VU 75~120), or lowes(CM3016 or CM3018) available for around $50 -- or #2). Seperate Dayton/Cincinnati antennas on seperate feedlines(coax runs) with a A/B switch before receiver to switch between the two.

Of course, you could put the dayton antenna w/o rotor up first and add a Cincinnati antenna later if you wanted to -- using temporary "manual" rotation with the Dayton antenna for Cincinnati to see how the reception is.

I use a outdoor antenna setup here, but I can tell you from 5 miles North of Middletown I can receive most of the Cincinnati and/or Dayton digital stations with a $2 UHF loop antenna and $2 VHF rabbit ears(for ABC Cincy) placed near a 2nd story window facing the towers(east window for Dayton - 12 Miles, South window for Cincinnati - 27~32 miles) -- The only 2 of the 14 Dayton/Cinci digital stations on the air that I can't get via that method are WCVN-DT (KET/PBS HD) in N KY, and WSTR-DT, WB HD Cincinnati.

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 11:59 AM

The line is not split in the box, I made sure of it. Didn't want more then one split. When i had cable originally installed i remember the tech saying the exact same thing, as he reluctantly put a splitter on my connection. I don't remember always having the problem, just in the past 5-6 months. I just think it's strange that it's always the same channels I have problems with. It's also strange, because 32, goes out before 31, and 31 before 30, as the lower channels slowly degrade in quality. And of course, when i'm watching tv while i'm using my PC, I usually want to be watching the Golf Channel (30), ESPN (26), ESPN2 (27), or FSN (29).

I don't know how TW does it specifically, Usually, my understanding is that they usually need to put a low-pass filter in-line for the cable modem, in order to keep the return-path from cable modem "clean". This low-pass filter only lets the lower frequencies used/being sent by the cable-modem pass, while blocking the higher frequencies used by the TV side. This is supposed to keep any RFI/interference from your TV from affecting your cable modem, and I suppose might help keep interference out of your TV as well, depending upon how/where it is installed.

It does seem strange the "intermittant" nature of what is going on, but it definitely sounds to me like some sort of cable "leakage" problem, or something similiar ... Hard to say whether or not it is something that is occuring "after" the drop to your house, or something further up the line, or from a nearby neighbors house ...

You are probably going to have to have a TW Tech come out and take care of it ... Hopefully, they'll be able to fix you up ...

BruteWes

06-23-05, 12:08 PM

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 12:13 PM

I'm considering OTA and I'm considering satellite. I'd like to hear from people anywhere remotely near my region and any stories or experiences and tips they'd like to share.

We did have some fairly extensive discussions much earlier in this thread about Lima OTA "possibilities", that might give you some good info, a search of this thread for "Lima" or perhaps "WLIO" should turn up quite a bit of info. Also, this was from a couple of years ago, but I do recall some postings from LIMA OTA folks in Ft. Wayne thread that seemed to indicate those folks had at least some luck.

Unfortunetly, however WLIO(which I don't believe even passes through NBC HD yet) and WTLW(religious) are the only two "in-market" Lima OTA stations ...WBGU(PBS) in Bowling Green being the next closest station -- They DO have PBS HD I believe ... And, Lima is pretty much "fringe area" for Ft. Wayne, Toledo and Dayton So if you do OTA you are going to probably have to go with the highest gain of directional antenna setups(and rotor) w preamp+rotor, and there are no guarentees concerning how reliable your reception will be ...

Sat of course does not currently offer local HD stations -- Depending upon your exact location - since there is probably a good chance you may actually be outside of the station's coverage area getting waiver's + DNS HD feeds might be a real possiblility for you though -- except for NBC because of WLIO .. Is it any wonder that TW "owns" Lima ....

BTW, I frequently peruse the Direct-view- CRT area+ am glad to see you are enjoying your XBR960. Depending upon how things go with the CC warranty repair of my RCA F38310 (38" 16x9 Direct View CRT w/built in DTC-100 - a "discontinued" model, I don't even think they make this large tube anymore), IF they can't get the thing fixed they are suppsed to replace it with something "comparable"(well there IS nothing comparable to it), and XBR960 is about the only thing that will be acceptable.

hall

06-23-05, 12:15 PM

Q of BanditZ: Many months ago, someone got "Lima" added to this thread and it seemed that Lima is in a black hole for OTA .... WLIO (NBC), the religious channel, and is it the FOX or WB channel are the only stations broadcasting digitally. You should be able to pick up Bowling Green's PBS channel but will require turning your antenna. Dayton stations are borderline too far -- you'd need a large antenna mounted as high as possible and then cross your fingers. Ft Wayne seemed to be a better option distance-wise (closer than Dayton) but maybe there are only a few stations there. Don't recall there...

With satellite, your location should make NO difference other than what installers are available. You won't get Lima's (few) local channels via either Dish or DirecTV, at least not for quite a few years. You'll be back to OTA (or *basic* cable from TW) to get those.

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 12:30 PM

Nitewatchman, thanks for all the advice. Have you had Time Warner cable? Did you switch from them to go with Dish? If so, why? Would you recommend going with satellite (dish or direct) over cable?

My big decision here is on the TV, because I have 2 choices. I can get a brand new Hitachi 57S715 with built in tuner and cable card slot (nothing listed about QAM tho), or an older used Hitachi 57T500 without a tuner for about $800 less.

So my cable/ota/cable card/satellite decision needs to be made so I know which TV to get. I got confused on the antennas :( You said severl things about $20-$50 antennas and having them indoor vs. outdoor, etc. But then ended with the fact that you get most all of the cincy and dayton channels with a $2 antenna??? I'm confused :(

1st off yea, making the decision/doing the research on which HD set to purchase can get VERY complicated.

Update: Sorry, I missed the question at first : No, I have not had TW Cable. I was OTA only(OTA HD since 2001) before adding Dish network last September(I still primarily use OTA, and I don't subscribe to locals via the dish.) Cable does not actually serve my "specific" rural location between Middletown and Germantown. Too expensive for them to run the cable to just a "few" households at the very edge of TW Cincy's coverage areas.

Sorry to confuse you on the antennas ... Hopefully, I'll be able to make this a little clearer ... There are many factors that can be involved with getting "good reception", and Noone can really predict with 100% accuracy how "easy" getting good reception will be (especially with a simple indoor antenna) ... Although, generally speaking it should be fairly easy from Trenton (unless perhaps you're new house is right next to a big hill in the direction of the towers)....

For instance -- You *might* buy a $3 antenna and it *might* work just fine from indoors ... BUT, you are increasing your chances of getting good reception with a $20 "Silver sensor" indoors, and it's even MORE likely you'll get good, reliable reception with a properly installed $50~100 outdoor antenna setup. That of course is the DIY price, for a professional install(if you can find a OTA installer in this area who knows what they are doing) It'll probably run you about $250 at the least.

I'm just saying you have many options depending upon what you want to do ... Since you are getting cable anyway, and if your OTA reception isn't "perfect" right off the bat it shouldn't be that big of a deal - so perhaps the most convienent thing would probably be to start with a indoor antenna(personally, I'dj probably go ahead and spend the $20 or so and get something like a "silver sensor" or RS DBT, but you could also go the low cost route and purchase a $2~3 UHF loop or rabbit ears) and see how well it does, first before spending too much time or effort on something "better". On the other hand, while I still can't "guarentee" good reception, if you stick up a $50 antenna (such as RS-U75R) outside on a mast and properly aim it/mount it, chances are very, very good that you'll receive good reception of the Dayton stations with it ...

Update #2: Oh yeah ... on the TV, I certianly wouldn't pay $800 more for JUST the internal OTA digital tuner. For instance, you can buy an external OTA ATSC HD receiver for around $200. Also, btw -- if the set is advertised as "digital cable ready", and has the cablecard slot, i'd think it would do QAM, as that is the signal modulation most "digital" cable(including TW) uses.

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 12:39 PM

and is it the FOX or WB channel are the only stations broadcasting digitally.

No Fox or WB station in Lima, digital or analog. We probably posted at the same time, but The ONLY 2 stations in Lima market are WLIO (NBC), and WTLW (independant/Religious). BOTH of those are on the air digitally, but last I heard, WLIO didn't have the equipment to pass through HD from NBC. AS you said, the next closest station is WBGU(PBS) Bowling Green.

I'd have to do a query of FCC's CDBS database, but there may be some other low power stations/translators up there -- If so, they'd definitely be analog only at this point. I do know that WPTD 16(ThinkTV dayton) Does have low power analog translators in Maplewood(W63AH - Channel 63), and Celina. (W17AA Ch 17).

AS you say, FT Wayne Market is probably closest at ~55 miles or so from Lima ... I haven't heard what the Ft. Wayne stations have been doing as far as "high power" DTV goes, but last I did check it out they were all pretty low powered, and didn't seem to serve their fringe areas very well ....

Q of BanditZ

06-23-05, 02:11 PM

We did have some fairly extensive discussions much earlier in this thread about Lima OTA "possibilities", that might give you some good info, a search of this thread for "Lima" or perhaps "WLIO" should turn up quite a bit of info. Also, this was from a couple of years ago, but I do recall some postings from LIMA OTA folks in Ft. Wayne thread that seemed to indicate those folks had at least some luck.

I do remember you and some of those discussions. :)

Unfortunetly, however WLIO(which I don't believe even passes through NBC HD yet) and WTLW(religious) are the only two "in-market" Lima OTA stations ...WBGU(PBS) in Bowling Green being the next closest station -- They DO have PBS HD I believe ... And, Lima is pretty much "fringe area" for Ft. Wayne, Toledo and Dayton So if you do OTA you are going to probably have to go with the highest gain of directional antenna setups(and rotor) w preamp+rotor, and there are no guarentees concerning how reliable your reception will be ...

Well, what's happening now is that I've stayed with TWC Basic Cable because I refuse to pay more when their hardware is so atrocious and I suffer such an obvious drop in PQ vs. the cable from the wall direct to the TV. The XBR960's tuner is EXCELLENT (like everything else on this TV.)

In addition to 2-78, I'm also getting CBS, ABC, FOX, TNT, and DISCHD. All for about $40 some odd a month. The TV just picks it up. No tricks, nothing illegitimate.

Sat of course does not currently offer local HD stations -- Depending upon your exact location - since there is probably a good chance you may actually be outside of the station's coverage area getting waiver's + DNS HD feeds might be a real possiblility for you though -- except for NBC because of WLIO .. Is it any wonder that TW "owns" Lima ....

Nope! A very reputable local electronics person gave me two important tips.

1.) TWC doesn't advertise this, but you can get 2-13 for about $10 a month. If I ever went satellite, I'd almost certainly do this vs. bothering with an antenna and I'd keep TWC for Road Runner Internet, because that's been outstanding!

2.) A little less than honest, but he told me about some kind of "local exemption" for people who get satellite on their mobile homes, campers, or things of that nature. I'm sure you probably have heard about this little "trick." ;) I doubt I'd ever get into something like that.

BTW, I frequently peruse the Direct-view- CRT area+ am glad to see you are enjoying your XBR960. Depending upon how things go with the CC warranty repair of my RCA F38310 (38" 16x9 Direct View CRT w/built in DTC-100 - a "discontinued" model, I don't even think they make this large tube anymore), IF they can't get the thing fixed they are suppsed to replace it with something "comparable"(well there IS nothing comparable to it), and XBR960 is about the only thing that will be acceptable.

No offense, but your RCA doesn't touch the XBR960. You know what you have to do. ;)

Q of BanditZ: Many months ago, someone got "Lima" added to this thread and it seemed that Lima is in a black hole for OTA .... WLIO (NBC), the religious channel, and is it the FOX or WB channel are the only stations broadcasting digitally. You should be able to pick up Bowling Green's PBS channel but will require turning your antenna. Dayton stations are borderline too far -- you'd need a large antenna mounted as high as possible and then cross your fingers. Ft Wayne seemed to be a better option distance-wise (closer than Dayton) but maybe there are only a few stations there. Don't recall there...

Doesn't sound like OTA is worth my while.

With satellite, your location should make NO difference other than what installers are available. You won't get Lima's (few) local channels via either Dish or DirecTV, at least not for quite a few years. You'll be back to OTA (or *basic* cable from TW) to get those.

I'll keep that in mind. :)

BruteWes

06-23-05, 02:12 PM

Q of BanditZ

06-23-05, 02:13 PM

Ok, after some research and talking to my local ISF tech, I've pretty much ruled out cable. So now its between dish and Direct TV. It seems dish has some receivers with tuners built in, so that would be good if I went with the cheaper TV. Any thoughts on dish vs. direct?

For sports, I'd recommend DirecTV. Whichever ones caters more to YOUR program tastes and needs will be the right choice.

hall

06-23-05, 02:45 PM

In addition to 2-78, I'm also getting CBS, ABC, FOX, TNT, and DISCHD. All for about $40 some odd a month. The TV just picks it up. No tricks, nothing illegitimate. What CBS, ABC, and FOX stations are you getting and are they the digital (or HD) channels ?? Are they in the 700-range ??

1.) TWC doesn't advertise this, but you can get 2-13 for about $10 a month. If I ever went satellite, I'd almost certainly do this vs. bothering with an antenna and I'd keep TWC for Road Runner Internet, because that's been outstanding! This is certainly no secret and it's even listed on their website if you drill down....

Go here, http://www.timewarnercable.com/WesternOhio/, click Products, then Digital Cable, and then A la Carte Pricing. In Lima, it's $11.75/month. If you call them on the phone though, they won't come right out and mention it or offer it to you. We had the $40/month service and then got DirecTV. Since D* didn't offer locals (for Dayton) yet, I called TW and told them I wanted to downgrade my service. They told me I've got the lowest package they have... I had to describe it before she knew that I knew what I was talking about. Then it was like, "Oh, you mean our "limited" service ??". Yeah, like it's news to you....

Q of BanditZ

06-23-05, 02:57 PM

What CBS, ABC, and FOX stations are you getting and are they the digital (or HD) channels ?? Are they in the 700-range ??

Toledo and Dayton.

Go here, http://www.timewarnercable.com/WesternOhio/, click Products, then Digital Cable, and then A la Carte Pricing. In Lima, it's $11.75/month. If you call them on the phone though, they won't come right out and mention it or offer it to you. We had the $40/month service and then got DirecTV. Since D* didn't offer locals (for Dayton) yet, I called TW and told them I wanted to downgrade my service. They told me I've got the lowest package they have... I had to describe it before she knew that I knew what I was talking about. Then it was like, "Oh, you mean our "limited" service ??". Yeah, like it's news to you....

Ah. Thanks! :)

How do you like D* vs. TWC?

dusterscott

06-23-05, 03:11 PM

I'm happy with my DirecTV. And they provided me with a STB that receives satellite and OTA.

hall

06-23-05, 03:15 PM

Looks like TW is giving you the DT feeds of the analog channels. If that's the case, OTA is pretty much ruled out, I would think. Even with the $11/month service, if your TV has a QAM tuner in it, you'll still get those channels !

Analog channels (TWC) vs digital channels (D*) -> absolutely no contest -> DirecTV & Dish
Digital channels vs digital channels -> a tossup
Local channels + DiscoveryHD, TNT-HD (TWC) vs paying "extra" for HD (D* & Dish) -> TW
Cost (for first year) -> TWC
Cost (for second year) -> tie
Cost (3rd year and on) -> D* & Dish (I assume)
Leasable HD-DVR vs $1000 DirecTiVo or Dish 921 -> TWC

In the future, if I could get an HD-DVR from Dish or DirecTV and lease it per month, I wouldn't hesitate to go back. Then again, every time I see one of Dish's SuperDishes, I get really turned off. They are sooo butt-ugly and HUGE. Because of the limited locations for me to mount one of these, I'd probably give D* more consideration or I'd tell Dish "no Superdish, I'll pick up locals OTA".

BruteWes

06-23-05, 04:05 PM

Does anyone have the Voom HD package that Dish offers? If so please comment. Thanks!

hall

06-23-05, 04:17 PM

BruteWes: Back up one level here to the "HDTV Programming" forum. There's plenty of discussion on that there.... Satellite-related stuff won't be area-specific. Someone in California can answer as accurately as someone in Middletown.

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 05:01 PM

Doesn't sound like OTA is worth my while.

Probably not, but it's really hard to say for sure without knowing/hearing about how other folks in Lima area are doing with OTA reception -- probably especially for Ft. Wayne+Toledo stations. In other words, at this point you would probably just have to try it(with a nice, outdoor setup with rotor+preamp) to find out ....

If you were farther South(or North OR east OR west<g>), things would be different. For instance, This is what I get OTA HD wise here :

Dayton

CBS HD
NBC HD(TW Dayton/W OH Doesn't carry it - no agreement yet with WDTN)
ABC HD
Fox HD
PBS HD (They have PBS HD 12 hours nightly - 6pm~6am)
WB HD(TW Doesn't carry it yet I don't believe, no agreement for digital carriage with WBDT)

Cincinnati :

CBS HD
NBC HD
ABC HD
Fox HD
WB HD(TW Cincy doesn't carry it, no agreement with Sinclair/WSTR for digital carriage)
PBS HD -from THREE different Cincinnati area PBS affiliates, one is KET/PBS in N KY, one is WCET/PBS, the other being WPTO/ThinkTV oxford which has completely different programming from WPTD Think TV Dayton. UPN Cincinnati(a class A low power station) is awaiting the chance to file with FCC for a digital companion channel -- As I understand it They do plan on UPN HD ..

I
No offense, but your RCA doesn't touch the XBR960. You know what you have to do. ;) )

No offense taken, but don't think you can get away with a comment like THAT without a response ;)

The XBR960 is a fine set, and certianly, IMO, overall the finest consumer direct-view CRT currently available.

I suppose it depends upon the criteria you are using, but I wouldn't quite put it that way. How much do you know about F38310? I take it you've done some side by side comparisons with it and XBR960?

F38310 is a "one of it's kind" high end, 38" direct view CRT which was discontinued by RCA about 6 months~1 year before you became a member at AVS.

I would say the BEST 34" or larger HD direct-View CRT's(PQ wise) so far made available to consumers have been the Sony XBR, the Lowe Anaconda and the RCA F38310. Toshiba current HF/HFX series are in a bit different "class" than those, but I wouldn't even go so far to say a XBR's PQ blows away 34HF84 PQ either(AND I've seen those side by side as well) ...

AS far as a comparison between RCA F38310 and Sony XBR, each set has it's advantages and disadvantages(one major disadvantage to the RCA is that it is no longer in production). PQ wise, generally speaking, I've SEEN a direct comparision, and I don't think the PQ(or most anything else) on the XBR is really all that vastly superior to F38310 HD PQ. In fact, I've talked to folks(one fellow was a ISF calibrator) who "prefer" the F38310's PQ. I disagree with them a bit, especially because of the slightly more "natural" looking whites on the XBR.

When I purchased the RCA (in Nov 2001 - picked up a 5 year extended warranty, obviously), I compared it directly(with the sets actually sitting right next to each other) with the predecessor to the current XBR960 Model.

At the time, The F38310 was available for around $2600, the 34" XBR w/internal ATSC receiver(can't recall the exact model number - it was their "flagship" CRT model just as the XBR960 is currently, I do remember I also looked at the 40" 4x3 XBR Sony had at the time) a $3500 set. The RCA uses the same tube as the Lowe Anaconda(Lowe no longer sells products in the U.S., and again I don't think anyone makes this 38" tube any longer), the anaconda being a $5K set which is more along the lines of the "perceived quality" of the Sony's ...

Yes, the Sony tube has more horizontal resolution(1400 lines as compared to 1200 on the RCA tube), and from what I've seen the color decoder seems to be slightly "better" on the Sony .. as is its ability to produce "natural looking" whites w/o blooming. But, at this screen size, I don't think that extra "resolution" is really even perceivable and certianly, the RCA has a very natural looking pic, excellent black level and color accuracy, and, with a "curved" tube on the RCA although it has some very slight geometry issues of its own, it doesn't suffer from the VERY evident and "distracting"(at least to my eyes) common deflection/geometry issues of the flat screen sets(including the XBR960 from what I hear).

The power supply in this RCA also produces a "rock solid" pic, that doesn't "jump around" at all when screen brightness changes (I presume the sony doesn't have this issue with "weak" power supplies as is the case with many of the "lower end" CRT's these days). It also doesn't have the doming problems I've seen in some current CRT's(such as Samsungs), most of which are on the "low end" of things. It's unfortunate really, that the XBR 960 is really about the only true high end Direct-View CRT left these days. At this point at least, IMO, Plasma is "close"(and is a good "compromise" since you don't get the geometry issues at all) but, there IS simply no better PQ than CRT ...Direct View or RPTV ... That's why they use professional CRT monitors for reference in tests/comparisons of other displays/display technoligies ...

In fact, the particular RCA set I got was so well "calibrated" at the factory there was little need to "mess with anything" besides the user Tint/contrast/etc. controls. This has not been the case with other CRT sets I own, including a Toshiba 34HF84(which is basically fine - Color accuracy to close to 6500K --- appears quite excellent in fact, excellent black level, "good" whites but not quite as good as the sony(or RCA) but, it does have some slight geometry issues and had quite a bit more overscan out of Box than is necessary), and a "cheap" samsung Samsung HD set(TXN2668WHF) which luckily has an extensive and generally understandable service menu - through which+some painstaking efforts, especially where it's geometry issues were concerned I was able to fix MOST(can't do anything about the slight doming problems however) of it's problems, although with this particular set I even had to take the cover off the back and do a little work .....

However, in any event The MAIN advantage of the RCA in my case(in which the set HAS to fit in a certian "area") is that it is also a 38" set - and that 4" extra size is a BIG asset when it comes to a "theatrical" experience, of course depending upon how far away you are sitting.

In any event, On the one hand, I'm hoping they can get the parts needed from RCA to repair it. Don't get me wrong, I have not talked to them about this yet at all as we haven't GOTTEN to that point at all yet, but, on the OTHER HAND if they DON'T fix it AND they do AGREE to trade it for a XBR960(which I'd think they should per the details of the warranty coverage, as they currently have it for several hundred LESS than what I paid for F38310) -- I would certianly consider it a "good trade", especially as it would be a new set replacing one that's been used ~12 hours a day for almost 4 years now --

EXCEPT of course for the loss of 4" of screen real estate, and if I encounter significant geometry issues ... Also, The RCA's internal ATSC receiver(DTC-100, which also of course is D* HD receiver - I don't use that however) has 2 antenna inputs, which I use(have one antenna aimed towards Dayton, One towards Cincinnati) - Switchable from the remote. Little things like this DO matter in our "application" for this set, and is another reason why there isn't anything "comparable" ...

BTW, When I said "comparable", I didn't necessarily mean PQ wise, what I meant was The screen size and certian features of the RCA (like the 2 antenna inputs) I use which no other set has -- It also has internal DirecTV HD receiver, but I don't use that anyway, so that part doesn't matter. As well as the price being important(I don't want a $1000 set to replace a $2600 set for instance), and of course the PQ IS of uptmost importance -- Besides the XBR960 and perhaps a Sony CRT RPTV CC carries that I *might* be able to "squeeze in", PQ wise there's nothing I've seen else that even comes close(that will fit in the area it has to go in anyway) to the RCA except perhaps some High end 50" Plasmas(and there is just enough room that will JUST fit on the wall) which might be "good enough" PQ wise for me .. BUT, I don't want to pay THAT much ...

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 05:06 PM

It seems dish has some receivers with tuners built in, so that would be good if I went with the cheaper TV.

All current and past DirecTV HD receivers have the OTA HD tuners built in, All the current Dish Network receivers do as well. There was an earlier Dish HD receiver(5000 + I think maybe the 6000 as well) which required a seperate plug in module for OTA HD. Keep in mind, with either Dish or DirecTV, you still have to use a Off-air antenna for the HD locals -- They do not yet provide HD from the local broadcast stations(or their network of affiliation) via the satellite stations, and it will be quite some time before that happens. They only currently carry the local broadcast stations ANALOG signal via satellite ...

You can also purchase external OTA ONLY HD receivers BTW -- For instance, Rex carries RCA ATSC11(at least they did about a month ago when I asked them), Walmart has the USDTV/Hisense receiver, Circut City has a motorla and samusung OTA only box they carry.

As for the Voom HD channels, they are currently on the 61.5 sat, whearas the E* main HD package(TNTHD, ESPNHD, Discovery HD/etc) are on 110 Satellite -- The "typical" Dish subscriber currently uses a dish 500, which picks up the 110+119 satellites.(where all of the "main" SD cable nets are, and most Local market(SD only of course).

As Hall said, you'll find much more info on the sat providers and what they carry in the programming area(or other DBS specific fourms such as Sat guys and dbstalk. These local threads are generally more to discuss local issues, such as OTA HD reception, problem issues with the stations, as well as cable carriage of local broadcast stations.

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 05:10 PM

Then again, every time I see one of Dish's SuperDishes, I get really turned off. They are sooo butt-ugly and HUGE. Because of the limited locations for me to mount one of these, I'd probably give D* more consideration or I'd tell Dish "no Superdish, I'll pick up locals OTA".

I'm curious, what would you need a Superdish for? If you DID need something other than 110 or 119 reception, you could also use a 2nd, small "wing dish". I'd have to look it up th be sure and with the OTA situation in Dayton area, I don't know why you'd want the SD analog locals via LIL via Dish anyway, but I think the locals around here are on 110 sat. -- I know Cincy is, and I *think* Dayton is but I'd have to look it up to be sure.

Dish's Primary "dish" most subs(including HD subs) use is the "Dish 500", which is much smaller than superdish and picks up the 119+110 birds. The main "cablenet" HD channels from Dish(TNTHD, DiscHD, ESPNHD/etc) channels are on 110 satellite, along with many local markets SD channels. Most of the Dish SD (cablenet) channels are on 119 bird. The voom HD channels and *some* local markets are at 61.5, as is CBS HD feed(which you wouldn't be eligible for unless WHIO-DT gave you a waiver) ...

Q of BanditZ

06-23-05, 05:37 PM

snip

Holy mackrel! Great posts, but um...I was kind of ribbin' ya about the TV's. I know that the RCA TV you have is quite solid and, as you state, one of the best Direct View CRT's. :) I'm going to run Avia in a few days and see what I can do and then in a month or two, I'm going to get my 960 ISF calibrated, to really put it over the top.

hall

06-23-05, 05:38 PM

No, Dayton's locals are on Dish's 105' satellite (1). They are a somewhat recent addition, maybe a little over a year ago. To get the locals, the Dish500 won't suffice. Also, and don't hold me to this, because the 105' is a KA-band satellite, it requires a different LNB than the Dish 300 or 500 uses so you can't use (2) dishes, one pointed at 110/119 and the other at 105.

Why would I want the channels via Dish ?? 1) The information is integrated into the program guide and 2) you can't record (DVR) OTA channels using Dish's DVR. Heck, that contradicts what I said above, doesn't it ?? :)

(1) From Dish's website:

Congratulations, this address may be eligible for the Local Networks Package in your area. Eligibility for this local channels package is subject to qualification with full address.
Dayton, OH (SD 105) DISH Local Networks Package

The "SD 105" apparently stands for "SuperDish at the 105' location".

dusterscott

06-23-05, 06:25 PM

My Samsung SIR-TS360 Satellite/OTA D* receiver puts the OTA channels and Satellite channels on the same guide grid. Satellite programming costs me 39 bucks a month without the locals (I get those for free OTA), $11 extra for the HD package.

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 06:57 PM

Even with the $11/month service, if your TV has a QAM tuner in it, you'll still get those channels !

The only thing about that though is I'd think there is at least a possibility that this MIGHT change in the future ... As discussed earlier, while it is true that it's currently an FCC requirment for the Cableco to put the digital stations they are carrying ON their most basic tier, lowest cost tier ... WITHOUT lowering the quality of what the station sends them .. It is ALSO true that not only has cable been fighting to get TPTB to let them DOWNREZ those digital signals from the station on their basic, or analog cable to ANALOG SD, there is actually a bill being introduced in Congress by Mccain which will let them do this very thing ...

I think The actual "idea" behind the downrez to analog thing is so folks with analog cable and analog only TV's will be able to still "see" the stations after analog shut off without having to get "digital cable" converter boxes --

While it's not the "same thing", but IF it goes through -- who knows, You'd THINK they'd still have to do it as it is currently(for folks who do have Qam tuners/Digital TV's, but then again -- "strictily speaking" it might turn out that they might not have to put the actual "digital" signals on the basic tiers anymore ... Again, you wouldn't *think* so, ans I don't think that it's the "digital" signal on the basic tier would really eat up any more bandwidth ... since it will be there for the subs to the "HD" tier anyway .. But, then again -- you just never know ...

Analog channels (TWC) vs digital channels (D*) -> absolutely no contest -> DirecTV & Dish Digital channels vs digital channels -> a tossup

I agree with this part of your assesment ... Analog cable is definitely usually in the "bottom of the barrel" PQ wise ... Although -- IF you get good analog OTA reception(which CAN be difficult), even it's PQ beats almost ANY SD digital cable OR sat PQ.... IMO ...

Digital OTA HD/SD PQ from the stations SHOULD be the same OTA or via cable(again, except for perhaps differences at the decoder/STB "output" end). Cable providers really aren't "allowed"(at least currently) to "downgrade" the PQ, recompress the datastream from the station at higher rates/etc ... It's in the rules ... Not saying that none of them have/are not doing it(such as via "rate shaping"), but from what I've heard, I'm pretty sure TW(at least in this area) isn't.

Local channels + DiscoveryHD, TNT-HD (TWC) vs paying "extra" for HD (D* & Dish) -> TW
Cost (for first year) -> TWC
Cost (for second year) -> tie
Cost (3rd year and on) -> D* & Dish (I assume)
Leasable HD-DVR vs $1000 DirecTiVo or Dish 921 -> TWC

Just a FYI -- Also -- E*(abbrevation for Dish network) DOES allow you to subscribe to JUST the HD package, and not one of their basic packages ... It's $9.99 per month for the 5 "main" current HD channels, Plus $5 more for the voom channels. BUT, IF you don't also sub to a basic package and just sub to the HD package, there is a ~$5 add'l monthly "programming access fee". You do of course also have to either purchase, or lease the receiver.

Also, I'm not sure, (don't hold me to this on the leasing part) but I thought E* was leasing their newest HD-DVR, (which is The 942 (see here: http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/products/receivers/dvr/index.shtml ), now? The 942 is $699 BTW, not $1K.

Also, and don't hold me to this, because the 105' is a KA-band satellite, it requires a different LNB than the Dish 300 or 500

Yep, that's right. You're right about the Dayton locals being on 105 as well, I remembered that wrong, It's just Cincy that's on 110.

I don't think I'd be wanting to put up one of those superdishes, either. Strangely enough, I have no problems putting a 30' long Ham antenna, or 17' long TV antenna on top of a tower, but I can't really think of anywhere I'd have to put one of those ...

Why would I want the channels via Dish ?? 1) The information is integrated into the program guide and 2) you can't record (DVR) OTA channels using Dish's DVR.

Hmmm ... Are you SURE about this(#1)? Don't hold me on this either, but I'm fairly certain I've heard them say on either Charlie Chat or Tech forum some months ago that at least with the 811(and I assume the 921/942 as well) that the EPG from the local channels, even if you are receiving them OTA are now integrated(I'm not sure if that's using the E* EPG info, or the PSIP EPG info from the stations), as is the case with the D* receivers(although I know those do use the D* EPG info). - I do remember people complaining about it about a year ago however, but I think they've upgraded (the 811 at least) software for this - I think there is even a long thread about it on one of the DBS forums.

Anyhow, I haven't looked at too much of this stuff in detail yet, as personally I'm probably going to stick with my E* SD only receivers until they do their upgrade to MPEG4, so I don't have a way to check it to see how the EPG works. And, right now anyway, we've decided $10 extra per month is just not worth it to us for the HD channels they have, being that Most of what I watch HD wise(or SD wise for that matter) is via OTA. Heck, it's actually hardly not worth it for us to Pay the $26.99 for AT60 from E* (It went UP to $26.99 from $24.99 since we starting gettint E* last sept Much more than that, and we'll probably go back to OTA only) ... If it weren't for a few shows such BSG, CSPAN1+2, and occasional stuff like "Into the West" on TNT, as is, I'd probably get rid of the dish and go back to OTA Only(+ DVD of course) ....

I also don't know about the recording part of it and OTA HD with their newer 942 DVR. That certianly would stink as well, however and doesn't make any sense that they wouldn't let you record from the ATSC side of the receiver .... If so, the thing would defintely certianly be for the most part useless to me ...

But, overall I guess I am just "different" ... I understand that the DVR folks like the convienience of it, but, -- I need the ability to easily archive recordings to removable media anyway, so a DVR just ain't going to work, and I'd take HD over SD any day, even if it's "quasi" HD "downrezzed" to SD(but still 16x9) and recorded "anamorphially"(16x9 NTSC video would be more correct term) to A DVD or S-VHS VCR (I wouldn't be able to take just "plain VHS however)

Also, Even though E*+D* say they are "all digital" -- The local channels they currently carry are actually from the ANALOG OTA stations, and don't look anywhere near as good as they do Analog OTA ...

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 07:10 PM

Holy mackrel! Great posts, but um...I was kind of ribbin' ya about the TV's

Yeah, sort of figured that, but I couldn't resist/couldn't pass up that comment <g> ...Besudes, it helps me to make sure I'M on the right track to write it down+think about it (and hear your input on it of course) ...

Of course, the part about the 38310 that ISN"T so solid is all the problems with an aux power supply (for the DM-1 module - i.e. the internal DTC-100) .... And, it is because of THAT failure Mine has had(and it's not just the common caps/diode problem this thing is common for) that again, I'm not sure what to wish for at this point .. Either:

#1). For them to FIX the thing( IF it would ONLY stay fixed even AFTER the warranty expires - which would be fine with the 4" more screen real estate),

OR:

#2). For them to give up and give me a New TV ... hopefully a XBR960 which will reliably "work" for the next 20 years until the phospors just wear too much ...

Q of BanditZ

06-23-05, 07:55 PM

Yeah, sort of figured that, but I couldn't resist/couldn't pass up that comment <g> ...Besudes, it helps me to make sure I'M on the right track to write it down+think about it (and hear your input on it of course) ...

Of course, the part about the 38310 that ISN"T so solid is all the problems with an aux power supply (for the DM-1 module - i.e. the internal DTC-100) .... And, it is because of THAT failure Mine has had(and it's not just the common caps/diode problem this thing is common for) that again, I'm not sure what to wish for at this point .. Either:

#1). For them to FIX the thing( IF it would ONLY stay fixed even AFTER the warranty expires - which would be fine with the 4" more screen real estate),

OR:

#2). For them to give up and give me a New TV ... hopefully a XBR960 which will reliably "work" for the next 20 years until the phospors just wear too much ...

If the RCA ends up not working out, I really think you'd be VERY happy with the XBR960. :)

hall

06-23-05, 09:24 PM

At the time when I cancelled Dish, the only HD-DVR they had was the 921 and it cost $999. It was also not highly thought of by many people... Without having one, I can't say it was good or bad. I might have liked it. The HD-TiVo from DirecTV was also $1000 though many people (long-term D* customers ??) negotiated things like $200-300 in credits though they still had to pay $1000 up front.

Back to Dish .... if you could see the "notes" on my account, the retention rep listed my reasons for leaving as "no leasable HD-DVR available". :) I did tell him that when you get one, I'll look at coming back.

As for the program data for locals in the Dish guides, yes, the 811 and 921 and now the 942 do this. Apparently though it was off and on, depending what s/w Dish released that month, that it worked on the 811. Again though, once you've had a DVR, it's hard to live without one. So, that rules out the 811 anyway...

s1059197

06-23-05, 09:30 PM

Thanks for the replies. I called Time Warner, and the lady said no problems were being reported. I didn't push any farther since I'll have a tech at my house Sat. to install my cablecard. Hopefully that will go well. I tried doing another auto channel search, but still no dice for wkef-dt 22.1.

Thanks again

OSU Fan, you may have already figured this out, but I just noticed tonight that ABC HD moved to 0.0 from 22.1. 22.1 has been blank for me too for the last few days, and I'm getting my HD just like you are--from my internal TV tuner over TWC basic.

Will you be adding any local channels in HD when you get your cablecard on Saturday (NBC or WB)? Or will you just get ESPN HD, etc.?

Phil

Nitewatchman

06-23-05, 09:42 PM

Q of bandit Z,

I'm sure you are right ... if CC "cooperates" that's the plan ;-) .. It was a difficult decision back in 2001 between the RCA and the 34" HD XBR they had ... We ended up going for the extra screen size(and the $800 less cost), but If I HAD KNOWN about the DM-1 power supply issues(which strangely enough started being reported a few months after I bought it), we would have went with the Sony "way back" then ...

Guess we should stop talking about this, since it is probably pretty OT for this thread ... Whatever ends up happening (whenever it happens, I've already been waiting 2 months for the RCA to get fixed), I'll either post in the XBR thread or the "how are F38310 owners doing?" thread in the direct-view area.

--------------------------------------------------

Hall,

Yeah, I'd heard the 921 is quite buggy. BTW, I saw some pics of the first "new" MPEG4 receiver they've apparently been developing, which was at a trade show .. It's (currently at least) a "411" -- Not DVR, but apparently, if reports(and the info on it at the trade show) were any indication it is HD receiver, has OTA ATSC receiver, and apparently is going to replace BOTH the 311 (SD) AND the 811 ... Which *seems* to perhaps indicate, that after their migration to MPEG4(for both HD- which is happening first, and SD "later" I take it), They're probably won't be any more E* "SD Only" receivers ...

On the DVR thing, and not being able to live without one -- I think it depends upon "how" you watch(or record) TV. It HAS to involve removable media for me, I wouldn't be able to live without that. Stuff gets recorded in one place, lays around and doesn't get watched, including by other members of the family(often on another set, in a different room), sometimes, not until months later.

Q of BanditZ

06-23-05, 10:06 PM

Good luck, Nitewatch! :)

osu fan

06-24-05, 10:28 AM

Hi s1059197, Thanks for the info for 0.0 ABC. I'll have to try it out when I get home tonight. You can get WB & NBC hd from TW? I ordered the digi pic2000 package, which you can choose 1) digital tier & 2)pay tiers. I ordered the digital hd tier which includes HDNET, HDNET movies, ESPN-HD, INHD, & INHD2. I also chose HBO & Showtime. I was already paying $49 so I thought $20 more is not bad for the extra hd I'll be getting. I quit buying dvds after I reached 400 or so, to wait on hd-dvd or blueray. After watching hd on a 61" tv, dvds look like crap :)

hall

06-24-05, 10:54 AM

In the Dayton area, you do not get WDTN-DT or WBDT-DT on Time Warner (yet).

I originally chose HBO and Showtime myself since the other movie channels don't have an HD channel (on TWC .... yet). After a couple of months though, the selection is soo bad we've switched to The Movie Channel and Starz. No HD programming, but much better choices of movies.

s1059197

06-24-05, 12:26 PM

In the Dayton area, you do not get WDTN-DT or WBDT-DT on Time Warner (yet).

There have occasionally been reports here about WBDT popping up on a random TWC channel. (I think 1450khz was seeing it for awhile.) I keep hoping I'll see it as one of those I-don't-know-why-they're-giving-me-this-but-I'll-take-it channels like Discovery HD and TNT HD.

Phil

hall

06-24-05, 02:44 PM

Officially, TW-WOH doesn't offer WBDT-DT, only WBDT (analog). WBDT-DT is simply "hidden" from the program guide at the moment. If you put your SA 8000HD or SA8300HD (don't know about other HD boxes from TW) in DIAGnostics mode, tune *directly*, i.e. press "726" on the remote control, you'll get The WB. It comes and goes too though... It worked a couple of days ago, for example. I know it worked around Christmas time for maybe a month and then disappeared for a couple of months. WDTN does something similar except you get no audio or video, but you do get "WDTN, NBC" or something in the banner.

osu fan

06-25-05, 06:34 AM

Phil, No dice for 0.0 Thanks anyways. TW will be out this afternoon to install my cablecard.

Thanks again

Q of BanditZ

06-25-05, 10:10 AM

WLIO Lima just announced last night, as of 6pm EDT, that they are now transmitting in HD for NBC prime time programs and such.

Cost of about $ 1/4 million to implement.

Nitewatchman

06-25-05, 11:31 AM

Q,

That's excellent! Might be time for you to pick up a pair of rabbit ears(keep in mind, their DTV station is on VHF RF channel 8) to hook up to the XBR ;) ... They really need to make sets with the internal ATSC+QAM tuners with 2 RF inputs on them, so they can be used for either two antennas, or one for an antenna and one for cable ...

Of course, until they go to full power (30KW ERP), reception of their current signal(430 Watts) with an indoor antenna may still be difficult unless perhaps you are quite close to their tower ...

The HD upgrade before upgrading the transmitter/antenna might be a good sign however that they are trying to get their DTV signal on Lima area cable ...

Does look like they should upgrade the DTV section on their website (here: http://www.wlio.net/wlio8/ ) ... It is quite well done with info about antennas/etc, but It still says they don't do HD, AND ALL the other stations they list(except perhaps WOAC Cleveland) are "ON the air" with DTV, ahd have been for quite some time ...

Anyway, it is good news that such a small station now has HD. They've done quite a few innovative and nifty things, such as putting audio from BBC and other shortwave broadcasters on their analog's SAP audio channel.

I also recall that back in the mid-80's when I picked up my first "stereo TV" set, WLIO was one of the very first stations in our area to transit Stereo Audio --- Even before the Cincinnati/Dayton stations(WLWT, NBC Cincinnati was the first down here as I recall it) -- I remember at least for a few weeks there that I would often aim the antenna that way, and when it was coming in, would be able to watch "The Tonight Show" with Stereo Audio from WLIO 35 ...(oftentimes, with albeit a bit "snowy" pic ...) ... I don't see their analog very often down here anymore from 82 miles distant, as WLWT digital Cincinnati also is on 35 ... I keep looking for them, but haven't seen their digital signal on 8 yet either ... Having WHIO 7 next door doesn't help that much(I do knock down/trap out 7 with a notch filter however), but neither does their flea powered 400 watt signal ....

Q of BanditZ

06-25-05, 11:32 AM

Nitewatchman

06-25-05, 12:43 PM

I wonder if I need to even bother with that? I wonder if my XBR960, with its built in tuner, would pick it up like it is the other HD networks, Discovery-HD, and TNT-HD.

Only if TW Lima is carrying/starts carrying WLIO-DT's signal. If not, you need the antenna hooked up to the XBR960's built in OFF AIR (ATSC/Digital) tuner to receive them. Just because your cableco is carrying WLIO's ANALOG signal, it does not necessarily mean it is carrying their digital(HD) signal. The cableco+station must come to an agreement for carriage of the digital station, which doesn't allways happen. I'd guess(just a guess) there is a good chance that sometime in the near future, they might come to such an agreement, however, as I wouldn't be at all surprised if the reason WLIO spent the $ on HD might have had something to do with "cable carriage" issues ....

The ATSC(for off air reception, you use an antenna) and the QAM tuner(for cable) are "integrated" in your built in tuner, but you need to hook up an antenna to it(and set your reception for "off air" instead of cable) to receive stations off air, or hook the tuner up to cable for the Nets/stations cable carries/provides ....

They said that basically none of the local programming, like the news, will get HD. This is more just for NBC Network programming. That's the idea I got.

Of course. I didn't say anything about local HD .... It would likely cost them Millions to do their local productions in HD. Only station anywhere around here that does Local News in HD at this point is WJW(Fox) Cleveland.

We've had a few local productions from Cincinnati stations over the years -- For instance, WEBN/Riverfest fireworks were done in HD between 1999 and 2003 (WCPO-DT the first year, WKRC-DT the others), WXIX-DT(Fox cincinnati) did 2 local productions of U.C. games this past season, WCET-DT(PBS Cincy) has aired a couple of local HD productions(one on Music Hall Cincinnati, one on the "Underground Railway, One on Tall Stacks 99), KET (PBS/KY) has done "The Ryan Interview"(ashley Judd) and a couple of other "American Shorts" HD productions which have aired nationally on PBS HD. There was also a HD production company in Cincinnati called "PPS productions"(I'm not sure if they are still around or not), and occasonally, you used to see HD demo loops with scenes shot in Cincinnati airing on one of the Cincinnati stations ... Haven't seen that happen in a few years, however ....

Q of BanditZ

06-25-05, 01:54 PM

Only if TW Lima is carrying/starts carrying WLIO-DT's signal. If not, you need the antenna hooked up to the XBR960's built in OFF AIR (ATSC/Digital) tuner to receive them. Just because your cableco is carrying WLIO's ANALOG signal, it does not necessarily mean it is carrying their digital(HD) signal. The cableco+station must come to an agreement for carriage of the digital station, which doesn't allways happen.

Based on how things usually go around here, I'd be shocked if it was running anytime in the near future. I'll certainly look into it, though.

I'd guess(just a guess) there is a good chance that sometime in the near future, they might come to such an agreement, however, as I wouldn't be at all surprised if the reason WLIO spent the $ on HD might have had something to do with "cable carriage" issues ....

Very likely.

The ATSC(for off air reception, you use an antenna) and the QAM tuner(for cable) are "integrated" in your built in tuner, but you need to hook up an antenna to it(and set your reception for "off air" instead of cable) to receive stations off air, or hook the tuner up to cable for the Nets/stations cable carries/provides ....

Right. All I'm doing right now is the the cable from the wall into the TV. I'll consider an antenna some time, but right now, I really don't know how much I'd gain from that.

Nitewatchman

06-25-05, 03:04 PM

Based on how things usually go around here, I'd be shocked if it was running anytime in the near future.
.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. If you mean cable carriage, who knows how long it will be. If by "running" you mean is NBC HD/WLIO up and running in Lima, WLIO digital has been "running" and on the air for over a couple of years now(but at low power - see the info at their website I provided) --And, If they said on-air that they have HD now, I'm sure they aren't just making it up.

Right. All I'm doing right now is the the cable from the wall into the TV. I'll consider an antenna some time, but right now, I really don't know how much I'd gain from that.

What you could gain, obviously would be NBC HD ... Perhaps with something as simple, and inexpensive as a set of rabbit ears ... such as this one ($7.99 - certianly, That is a ridiculously high price, but ...) from Radio shack : http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D236 ) ...

I would have thought PBS HD from WBGU-DT would be on Lima cable as well, but you didn't mention it, so if not and you did want PBS HD, to receive it you'd of course want an antenna setup with UHF capabilities as well if you want to try for PBS HD from WBGU-DT, Bowling green (it is more likely you'd need to put it outside, though than would be the case for you with WLIO-DT).

Each to his own, but I guess I could understand why you wouldn't want to mess with it if it were the case that TW already carried WLIO-DT, or if your set didn't have a internal ATSC receiver (in which case you would have to shell out at least around $200 for the receiver), but, the XBR960 DOES have internal ATSC receiver, all you have to do is hook up the antenna ....

The problem may be of course, if, for example it is the case XBR960 only has 1 RF input, it wouldn't allow you to hook up both cable+and antenna to the internal tuner, so you could then use both cable+OTA at the same time ....

hall

06-25-05, 05:25 PM

Please, no Vince Koza in HD, please !!! :D (Q of BanditZ surely knows what I'm talking about.... or anyone else from the Lima area)

As for Time Warner carrying WLIO-DT anytime soon, it's by no means automatic as Nitewatchman alluded to. Ask those of us in Dayton with Time Warner. We don't get NBC or WB (DT/HD) via TW.

Finally, Q, mind if I ask what general area you live in ?? I grew up in Lima, as we've mentioned via PM in the past, so I'm very familiar with the area. Odds are, you'll be able to pick up WLIO-DT with a small antenna.

osu fan

06-26-05, 08:04 AM

Hey fellas, Just wanted to tell everyone my TW cablecard experience went great. As soon as the tech saw my tv, he was relieved saying, "Great, i'ts not a Panasonic". According to him the Panasonics don't like the TW Scientific Atlanta cards. He plugged the card in, the tv took about 10 mins. to update the channel list, called the home office with some host #'s the tv was displaying, & just like flipping a switch, I had all the channels I ordered. :)

Q of BanditZ

06-26-05, 10:29 AM

Please, no Vince Koza in HD, please !!! :D (Q of BanditZ surely knows what I'm talking about.... or anyone else from the Lima area)

That would be very traumatizing. I'm not sure what they were thinking a couple of weeks ago when they had that local golf tournament, and he's on camera in a very tight polo T-shirt and shorts. No offense, he's a cool guy, but...BAD call there! BAD!

My mom and sister both were traumatized after that. ;)

As for Time Warner carrying WLIO-DT anytime soon, it's by no means automatic as Nitewatchman alluded to. Ask those of us in Dayton with Time Warner. We don't get NBC or WB (DT/HD) via TW.

Heh.

Finally, Q, mind if I ask what general area you live in ?? I grew up in Lima, as we've mentioned via PM in the past, so I'm very familiar with the area. Odds are, you'll be able to pick up WLIO-DT with a small antenna.

Near Shawnee.

hall

06-26-05, 10:47 AM

Near Shawnee ?? Kinda vague.... Anyway, WLIO's tower (and the station itself) is right smack in the middle of a residential area, on the west side of Lima (proper). It's about (4) blocks from where I grew up (when we were too little to go that far, my Mom used to tell us the blinking red light was Santa at the North Pole and that he could always watch us.... :)) and we used to play football and baseball in the field that the tower is in. It was always cool to get as close to the tower as possible and look straight up and see how much that thing swayed !

Nitewatchman mention "low power" and "full power" or something along those lines. If they're at low power, I don't know what kind of antenna you'd need. If they're at any sort of normal power output, I'd bet rabbit ears would pick them up. At worse, a $30 Silver Sensor should be plenty.

Q of BanditZ

06-26-05, 11:09 AM

Near Shawnee ?? Kinda vague....

On a public Internet forum? It's as specific as I'll get! ;)

Anyway, WLIO's tower (and the station itself) is right smack in the middle of a residential area, on the west side of Lima (proper). It's about (4) blocks from where I grew up (when we were too little to go that far, my Mom used to tell us the blinking red light was Santa at the North Pole and that he could always watch us.... :)) and we used to play football and baseball in the field that the tower is in. It was always cool to get as close to the tower as possible and look straight up and see how much that thing swayed !

Nitewatchman mention "low power" and "full power" or something along those lines. If they're at low power, I don't know what kind of antenna you'd need. If they're at any sort of normal power output, I'd bet rabbit ears would pick them up. At worse, a $30 Silver Sensor should be plenty.

Maybe. I'll probably just stick with basic cable and the cable going from the wall to the TV for the near future, at least. I'm not going to go any further than that with TWC because they're hardware is downright wretched and the obvious PQ drop off that happens isn't worth $0.02.

I may jump to satellite once I see things settle out with MPEG4 and some more HD programming. I'd probably go to the limited cable of $11 a month for 2-13 at that point, since I'm going to keep Road Runner no matter what.

Nitewatchman

06-26-05, 11:19 AM

Using the coordinates for their tower from FCC/FAA registration info, I show WLIO's tower right around/near intersections of either rice ave or leland ave and woodlawn ave. in west lima ... Which is 4.47 miles North(True bearing 5.4 Degrees) of a spot in "Ft Shawnee" that's about 1/2 mile west of exit 120 on I-75, IF that's the "shawnee" we are talking about.

WLIO-DT 8 is at QUITE low power currently ... 430 Watts ERP(Effective radiated power) ... That might not sound like much(and it isn't - 10KW~60KW is more common, for DTV even now on hi-VHF ch 7-13), HOWEVER, it still likely gets out quite well if you are within 30~40 miles or so of Lima and have a decent outdoor antenna setup.

Within, say 5~10 miles or so of their tower(especially within 5 miles), there are no guarentees, but Odds are still very good Q of banditz Z will be able to pick them up with rabbit ears(especially if he can place them near a window facing the towers). Just as it says on WLIO website, "If you are in Lima you may be able to get away with just rabbit ears". Farther away than say 10 miles or so, it likely starts to become much more likely an outdoor antenna would be required.

Here is the FCC info on the current operating permit for current WLIO-DT facilities :

WLIO OH LIMA USA (Digital)

Licensee: LIMA COMMUNICATIONS CORPORATION
Service Designation: DS Special Temporary Authority (digital)

Channel: 8 180 - 186 MHz
File No.: BMDSTA-20050414ADC Facility ID number: 37503
CDBS Application ID No.: 1059286

40° 44' 51.00" N Latitude 84° 07' 54.00" W Longitude (NAD 27)

Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 0.43 kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 60.2 meters HAAT
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 315.5 meters AMSL
Non-Directional Pattern Rotation: 0.00

--------------------------------
at following link is The predicted coverage map for WLIO-DT's current facilities(Reception from the "outer edges" assumes a outdoor directional antenna with 10db of gain(on ch 8) at 30FT above ground - terrain however is not accounted for) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS1059286.html

-----------------------------------------

Follows is the info from FCC on WLIO-DT's "Full Power" Construction permit. They have until 7/1/06 to build out facilities which will "cover" the below construction permit, If they don't, or do not get a waiver/extension, they lose interference protection for their entire service area on 7/1/06 - which means other stations could "take over" portions of their service area.

WLIO OH LIMA USA (Digital)

Licensee: LIMA COMMUNICATIONS CORPORATION
Service Designation: DT Digital television station

Channel: 8 180 - 186 MHz Modification of Construction Permit
File No.: BMPCDT-20041201BCP Facility ID number: 37503
CDBS Application ID No.: 1031046

40° 44' 51.00" N Latitude Site in Canadian Border Zone 84° 07' 54.50" W Longitude (NAD 27)

Polarization: Horizontal (H)
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 30. kW ERP
Antenna Height Above Average Terrain: 165. meters HAAT
Antenna Height Above Mean Sea Level: 424. meters AMSL
Antenna Height Above Ground Level: 158.8 meters AGL
TV Zone: 1
Directional Antenna ID No.: 68353 Pattern Rotation: 0.00

Relative Field values for directional antenna Relative Field polar plot
Relative field values do not include any pattern rotation that may be indicated above.

0° 0.893 60° 0.749 120° 0.979 180° 0.881 240° 0.748 300° 0.954
10° 0.980 70° 0.757 130° 0.881 190° 0.954 250° 0.757 310° 0.880
20° 1.000 80° 0.809 140° 0.789 200° 0.996 260° 0.809 320° 0.788
30° 0.979 90° 0.883 150° 0.748 210° 0.953 270° 0.881 330° 0.748
40° 0.881 100° 0.979 160° 0.757 220° 0.880 280° 0.955 340° 0.758 50° 0.789 110° 1.000 170° 0.809 230° 0.789 290° 0.997 350° 0.808

Here is the coverage map for their full power facilities :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1031046.html

Q of BanditZ

06-26-05, 11:24 AM

^^ Ok, so I'm pretty close to it. ;)

Nitewatchman

06-26-05, 12:16 PM

I'd bet rabbit ears would pick them up. At worse, a $30 Silver Sensor should be plenty.

Well, in this circumstance rabbit ears would likely be better than a Silver sensor. Silver sensor is a UHF-only antenna(which is fine if you are just interested in Dayton staitons, as all the dayton digitals transmit on UHF - for instance WHIO-DT transmits on channel 41, it only REMAPS to virtual channel 7.1 to "appear" to be next to analog WHIO 7), WLIO-DT transmits on VHF channel 8.

Anyhow, I think Q's "major" problem is that he can't hook up BOTH an antenna for OTA(to use his TV's built in ATSC/digital tuner), AND cable(to use his TV's built in cable QAM tuner) to his TV(which probably has only 1 RF input) at the same time ....

If this were analog we were talking about, he could just put a A/B switch just before the TV (for instance, hooking the cable up to "A" and the antenna up to "B"), and use the switch to switch between analog OTA and cable ... The frequencies for VHF ch 2-13 for cable and OTA are exactly the same, AND, with analog cable or analog OTA the modulation+"system" used(NTSC) are the same .. IF he switched to "A or B" -- when switched to the antenna He'd then just see OTA channel analog 8(if there were one transmitting) off the antenna, and when switched to cable, he'd just see whatever(if any) analog channel cable has on their channel 8 via the cable.

However --- with digital OTA/digital cable+analog cable in the mix, while I suppose there is still some sort of chance it might still "work" -- there would probably be more of a "user" procedure involved other than just switching the switch to A or B ... Because -- He's got either a Analog(NTSC) channel 8, or a QAM modulated Digital channel 8 via cable(or no signal on 8 from cable), AND off the antenna, he would have a ATSC(8VSB modulation) on channel 8 from WLIO-DT, which should also remap to channel 35.x via the PSIP metadata the station sends ... The internal tuner probably wouldn't just automatically "update" this "tuning info" everytime he switched the a/b switch between his cable+antenna ...

BTW, even though cable+OTA channels 2-13 are the same frequencies(each is a 6MHZ slice of bandwidth(spectrum - analog or DTV - although with QAM, two "stations" can fit in 1 6MHZ RF bandwidth QAM channel), UHF OTA channels 14-69 and cable channels 14-69 are different frequencies(they are still 6MHZ channels, however).

Q of BanditZ

06-26-05, 12:54 PM

Nitewatchman

06-26-05, 01:16 PM

I have two RF inputs. One says "cable" which I have the coax into right now. The other says "VHF/UHF" and is an identical coax input that is currently not being used.

I CAN do both OTA and cable at the same time, without the need for switchers or splitters.

Ah, good. Then you don't have a problem. Just hook antenna(it's even possible that a short piece of wire would suffice if the signal is good enough at your location) to the "VHF/UHF" input and "scan" that input for off-air channels ... Hopefully WLIO-DT and NBC HD(when available) will pop up without too much need for antenna "adjusting" ....

Q of BanditZ

06-26-05, 01:17 PM

Ah, good. Then you don't have a problem. Just hook antenna to the "VHF/UHF" input and "scan" for off-air channels ... HOpefully WLIO-DT and NBC HD will pop up without too much need for antenna "adjusting" ....

Are rabbit ears really sufficient, or should I look into something a little more...expansive? ;)

Nitewatchman

06-26-05, 01:56 PM

Well, I'd probably try the rabbit ears first, as it's something that doesn't require much effort, or expense, and *May* work just fine. However, chances are -- You might need to move them around a bit, and having a bit of extra coax run to work with can be quite beneficial -- from indoors, near a window facing the tower(North for WLIO) often turns out to be best. Basements are NOT a good place for an antenna .... As for indoors, Except for near a window, typical buidling materials will attenuate the field signal strength by about -20db as compared to outside .... Which is a lot, however, if you are in a strong signal area, you should generally have well over 20db "margin" to work with ....

Where available antennas are concerned, VHF is a bit different than UHF -- IF this were UHF we were talking about, I'd say you might as well get a Silver sensor or a RS DBT, both of which would provide better performance on UHF than say, a UHF Loop(UHF equivilent of rabbit ears).

But, The only other more "expansive" (meaning antennas which will work significantly BETTER than rabbit ears on VHF channel 8) VHF antennas, or combo VHF/UHF antenna are multielement outdoor antennas(which of course you could put in an attic/etc as well). I suppose, however somewhat smaller outdoor antennas such as such as CM3010 "stealthtenna" or Winegard's "Sensar" (antennas which are generally overly expensive coat hangars) might work a little better than rabbit ears on VHF 8 ....

But, For best bang for the buck would probably be something like a Radio shack VU-75 or VU-90 VHF/UHF combo(around $30~50), or CM3016(small outdoor VHF/UHF combo~$50 - Lowe's has them) would certianly work better than rabbit ears or CM3010 or Winegard "sensar" antennas -- They are outdoor antennas though, and are "broadband" design for both VHF+UHF reception.

The *Best* antenna specifically for Channel 8 would be a cut for channel 8 multielement yagi(or an antenna designed for reception of ch 7-13), some of which are mentioned under "what sort of antenna do you recommend" here: http://www.wlio.com/dtv/index.asp

Basically, the elements on an antenna are a certian "length"(generally 1/2 wavelenth), and antennas are designed to respond best at certian "frequencies". Rabbit ears are a single element(techincally a 1/2 wave dipole) antenna, and for channel 8, you could adjust it to respond "best" to channel 8 frequency (180~186 MHZ - 32" from tip to tip -- each "ear" 16" long) by "making it" 1/2 wavelength at channel 8, and probably by putting it in a "horizontal" configuration(see "Getting the most out of rabbit ears here, for more info: http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html ).

AS for the way most "more expansive" multielement TV antennas(such as the typical VHF/UHF combo antenna you'll see on roofs - which are usually a combination of Yagi/UHF corner reflector+Log periodic on VHF) are designed -- The "driven" element(s) are usually simple 1/2 wave dipole(s) -- Adding "reflector" elements and "director" elements of certian wavelengths/lengths a certian distance apart to a Yagi/LPDA antenna design increases gain and directivity of the antenna, and the different element lengths are also a factor in how "broadband" an antenna is(i.e. how well it works over a range of frequencies ... Which with TV is quite a wide range of frequencies -- and the lower frequencies have the longest wavelengths, and therefore antennas designed for good reception on the lower channels are also generally the "largest" antennas ... ch 2-6(54-88MHZ), Ch 7-13(174-216MHZ), Ch 14~69(470~806MHZ) ...

An antennas "gain" on any given frequency is usually expressed in DBi(DB gain over theoretical "isotropic" dipole), or Dbd (Db gain over a actual simple 1/2 wave dipole at that frequency -- such as a pair of "rabbit ears" adjusted for 1/2 wavelength at the specific frequency involved) ...

Q of BanditZ

06-26-05, 02:16 PM

Thanls, Jeff! :)

Nitewatchman

06-29-05, 01:25 PM

For the first time since weekend of 6/17 or so, WBDT-DT is decoding just fine again now on Zenith HDV420 receiver. PSIP remap to 26.1 is working just fine. Hopefully it's more of a permanent fix this time ....

Nitewatchman

06-29-05, 01:34 PM

Noticed FCC released a spreadsheet of tentative channel designations for full service stations' first round channel elections. Looks like FCC likely found some interference conflicts concerning WKEF-DT's(currently on 51) first round election choice to move back to analog 22 after analog shut off, and WRGT-DT's(currently on 30) first round election choice to move back to analog 45 after analog shut off, as they didn't make the "list" although they did make the election choice. I'd guess they probably have gotten interference conflict letters from FCC, and they have 60 days to respond ... They could either alter the antenna pattern to protect the other stations coverage areas, or change their election to their Current DTV channel assignment .. Or, they could end up on different channel altogether by the time all 3 rounds of the channel election process are complete.

All the other 1st round choices for Dayton+Lima stations stuck. So, we still don't know where WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT will end up after analog shut off, but the rest are on the tentative channel designation list, and I expect they will likely end up on these Channels after anaog shut off :

Dayton:

WPTD-DT 16 (currently on 58 - out of core)
WBDT-DT 26 (currently on 18)
WHIO-DT 41 (currently on 41)
WDTN-DT 50 (currently on 50)

Lima Area :

WLIO-DT 8 (currently on 8)
WTLW-DT 47 (currently on 47)

WBGU-DT 27 - Bowling Green (Currently on 56)

----

While it is possible per FCC's recent LP DTV rules that soon(when FCC opens the filing window), some LP stations may be seek a 2nd, digital companion channel allocation from FCC -- I'm guessing(just guessing at this point) that the Dayton/Lima Low power stations(currently all analog only) will probably flash cut to digital on their analog assignment. This is my *guess* where they will end up with digital after analog shut off - IF they manage to stay on the air that long - hard to say, some may not make it through the transistion. As for if any of these stations will ever have HD -- Who Knows! :

Dayton/Springfield :

WRCX-LP 40 (currently on 40)
WWRD-LP 32 (currnelty on 55, however they also currently have a analog permit to move to channel 32)
W47BC 20 (currently on 47, however they also currently have a analog permit to move to channel 20, as they are predicted to cause interference to WTLW-DT's full power coverage area).

Low power Translators for Dayton stations:

W63AH ?? Maplewood, OH (Currently on 63 - translator for WPTD 16 - obviously eventually they'll have to move off 63, as ch 52-69 is being refarmed for other uses)
W17AA 17 Celina, OH (currently on 17 - Translator for WPTD 16)

Lima :

WLQP-LP 18 (Currently on 18 - UPN low power station)
WOHL-CA 25 (Currently on 25 - Fox Low power Class A analog)
WLMO-LP 38 (currently on 38 - CBS Low power analog - Note - This station just recently moved from channel 65)
W61CZ ?? (Currently on 61 - low power religious analog - obviously they'll have to move off 61 eventually)

I also just posted info about this and the Cincinnati stations in Cincy thread.

-----------------------

The public notice from FCC concerning the 1st round tentative channel designations for full service stations after analog shut off is here:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-1743A1.pdf

An excel spreadsheet with the tentative channel designations(the "attachment 1" mentioned in document at above link) is here:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-05-1743A2.xls

Rakesh.S

06-29-05, 10:02 PM

I called TWC and managed to get limited+HD Tier today..

I now have -- roadrunner, limited+hd tier service+DVR..no more forced HBO and Showtime.

This dropped my bill by $30 bucks.

Nitewatchman

07-01-05, 01:16 AM

Well, rats ... At 1am 7/1 -- WBDT-DT isn't decoding again on Zenith HDV420 .... Hisense/USDTV DB-2010 is decoding it fine .... Fingers crossed that they have it "fixed" the next time I check them(probably sometime tomorrow) ... Yeah RIGHT ;)

WLWT-DT is running weather reports, so switched to WDTN-DT for HD Conan, and notice that they are having "issues"(looks like they aren't getting a solid signal from the bird, or however they are getting it from LIN control room in Indy/etc) with the NBC HD feed(2-2 SD is fine) ... It's been mostly "blank screen" mode for at least past 15 minutes with a frame popping up here and there, it's now currently solid at 1:14am ..

Nitewatchman

07-01-05, 10:43 PM

I've been getting pops+audio dropouts from WHIO-DT all day today/tonight, including during CBS HD tonight .. definitely a WHIO issue, as one might expect, audio is fine from WKRC-DT/CBS HD Cincinnati ...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, a minor correction concerning previous posts of mine and the following "specific" issue :

I had thought I had read in the current, latest FCC rules governing cable carriage of a broadcaster's digital signals(available here - http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/2001/fcc01022.pdf ) That a broadcaster could choose to invoke must-carry for either their digital OR analog signal(but not both).

However, I just read through the "fine print" again in the FCC order at link above(see section III, paragraph 8~12) -- and as it turns out, broadcasters can't currently make that choice between either analog or digital(Although according to info in a thread in programming area( here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=555307 ), FCC chairman wants to give broadcasters that choice) ... Currently, only a broadcaster which is "digital only" and doesn't have a analog signal can invoke "must-carry"(I.e. mandatory cable carriage rights) for their digital signal ...

Sorry about that! The DTV transistion and all the related issues have gotten so complicated that it is sometimes difficult to keep everything "straight" ....

Paul210

07-01-05, 11:12 PM

WBDT just can't get it right, and it seems WHIO can't either. WDTN's useless sub has nearly no audio when using the toslink output on either of my two receivers and it's been that way the whole year. WKEF still has freeze-frames and total signal drops... WKRC has the focus problem, WCPO doesn't know what's wrong with the jaggies... PBS has too many subs for their own good. DTV doesn't seem to be ready for prime time. Ho Hum... Aren't we all glad we're early adopters?

Q of BanditZ

07-02-05, 09:54 AM

I need someone to spot check me on this to see if it's an isolated phenomenon, local, or bigger.

TWC customers in Western Ohio: I've noticed a few channels, most especially Fox News as of late...really have poor picture quality. Fox News especially has a VERY washed out, bloomed, and even interference at times. The contrast is way off and the entire picture simply looks terrible. You can go up or down even one channel to compare and it's very obvious and stark of a difference.

Anyone else seeing that with them, for starters? The Fox News channel is the most blatantly obvious. I've noticed these PQ problems on it for several weeks now. Does anyone else see that?

Nitewatchman

07-02-05, 08:15 PM

Ho Hum...

It is getting old to see problems apparently go "unnoticed" by station personel, even at times after extended periods of times have passed, sometimes even if some of us notify them of the issue(s) ....

I'm not sure I buy the "early adopter" excuse any more, and regardless At this point, IMO it is inexcusable that stations are not properly monitoring their digital stations, including PSIP.

How many more years will I need to be a "early adopter" ....

koolz71

07-02-05, 09:48 PM

namx

07-02-05, 10:24 PM

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman]I've been getting pops+audio dropouts from WHIO-DT all day today/tonight, including during CBS HD tonight .. definitely a WHIO issue, as one might expect, audio is fine from WKRC-DT/CBS HD Cincinnati .../QUOTE]

Hello there new member here i was sent here from another forum cause of this issue...I live near west milton ohio, and never had any problems with my OTA HD's but this whole past week WHIO has been very poppy, kinda like a blank record playing on the turntable, and when i try to watch anything in HD, all i get are the background noises and no voices, do u think they will clear these issues up
thank you
Nathan Heck

Don't worry. I get same popping noise here in Fairborn. Never happened before for WHIO. Also, do you guys get a blue vertical streak about 1/4 from the left when watching this channel? This blue streak has also been there ever since I got my TV 15mo ago. I thought it was the TV at first but this is the only channel that has that nasty habit.

Nitewatchman

07-02-05, 11:23 PM

You could try contacting WHIO+reporting the problem. For this audio issue, you might need to call their main switchboard during normal business hours+asking for engineering, but, during "non-business hours", you might also have some luck calling their Newsroom line and either asking to be transferred to control room or engineering concerning an issue with their digital station - however, they won't usually transfer you, but I've had good luck in the past when they've missed HD by asking the person who answers the phone to pass along your message to the control room/engineering. Contact info for WHIO is here:

http://www.whiotv.com/station/1931451/detail.html

------------------------------------------------------------

namx,

If you search this thread for "Blue lines" you'll see that's a long standing issue many have reported seeing for years ....
----------------------------------

Paul210

07-03-05, 12:36 AM

...it is inexcusable that stations are not properly monitoring their digital stations, including PSIP....

I couldn't agree more. Yes, it is getting very old. Originally, the cutoff of analog was supposed to be next year, wasn't it? Now it looks like they're pushing for '08. I suppose it'll be then before some of these stations take it seriously, when they get thousands of irate phone calls instead of 2 or 3.

Greetings to the newbies and welcome to the thread.

Paul

Q of BanditZ

07-03-05, 10:29 AM

hall

07-03-05, 12:24 PM

No noticable problems with FOX News channel.

On the other WHIO popping noise issue, just noticed it this morning too. With reruns on, I'm not watching TV near as much and hadn't ran across this before.

Nitewatchman

07-05-05, 08:20 PM

I've checked it a couple of times the past couple of hours, and so far WHIO has apparently fixed their audio issue. Either they finally noticed it on their own, or thanks to whomever called them.

1450kHz

07-07-05, 04:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ
I need someone to spot check me on this to see if it's an isolated phenomenon, local, or bigger.

TWC customers in Western Ohio: I've noticed a few channels, most especially Fox News as of late...really have poor picture quality. Fox News especially has a VERY washed out, bloomed, and even interference at times. The contrast is way off and the entire picture simply looks terrible. You can go up or down even one channel to compare and it's very obvious and stark of a difference.

Anyone else seeing that with them, for starters? The Fox News channel is the most blatantly obvious. I've noticed these PQ problems on it for several weeks now. Does anyone else see that?

Guess I'll try this again.

I think you have an ingress problem where OTA signal is leaking into your cable. A good indicator of this is ghosting or striping on cable Channel 7 and interference on cable Channel 2. I forget, is Fox News up around 67-68? That's the same frequency band as OTA channel 16 I think. I had interference problems on those channels at my old apartment which had crappy wiring.

1450kHz

07-07-05, 04:22 PM

There have occasionally been reports here about WBDT popping up on a random TWC channel. (I think 1450khz was seeing it for awhile.) I keep hoping I'll see it as one of those I-don't-know-why-they're-giving-me-this-but-I'll-take-it channels like Discovery HD and TNT HD.

Phil

Currently WBDT is appearing on QAM channel 109.1 on my Fusion HD card. WCET is on 109.2 - 109.6 now.
No WDTN for me.

hall

07-07-05, 04:30 PM

I think you have an ingress problem where OTA signal is leaking into your cable. A good indicator of this is ghosting or striping on cable Channel 7 and interference on cable Channel 2. People in the Dayton area are probably familiar with what you're talking about but he's in Lima. I doubt he's getting leakage from WHIO or WDTN and their OTA signals. :D

Nitewatchman

07-07-05, 08:20 PM

(updated : oops - I missed Hall's post at first)

Yeah, but 1450Khz still might be on the right track ... might not be OTA ingress issue "specifically"(or it might still be, as Q is quite close to the Lima stations), but I'd guess it could very well be something along those lines ...

And Yep, OTA 16+Cable 67(482~488 MHZ more or less) are the same ... Here's a handy OTA+Cable channels frequency chart :

http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html

---------------------------------------------------------------

Another WBDT-DT "currently Hosed" PSIP OTA Datapoint -- Internal ATSC receiver in Sony KD-34XBR960 can't remap it to 26.1, but it is deconding WBDT-DT just fine on 18.3 via MPEG info ... Note: I just got the thing+haven't "mastered" it yet, so I could be wrong on how it finally "popped up" but but I don't think it actually found it via autoscan .. instead, I thinkI had to manually tune to 18.3 specifically first before it would add a decodable WBDT-DT at 18.3 to it's "channel surf list" ...

Zenith HDV420 currently still(again -- what's it been this time over a week now? - I lost track -just remember it stopped decoding again around the time the last big storms came through) can't decode WBDT-DT at all .. I would also note that I've never seen Zenith have a problem with either stations sending "proper PSIP"(sometimes it even works just fine when stations PSIP isn't "perfect"), OR if stations aren't sending any PSIP at all, it also works just fine with info for the streams from MPEG2 PAT/PMT tables ...

Paul210

07-07-05, 09:51 PM

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman Zenith HDV420 currently still can't decode WBDT-DT at all ....[/QUOTE]

I got them by manually tuning to 18-3 with the Zenith HDV-420. Voila, they're back!

Nitewatchman

07-07-05, 11:24 PM

Paul,

AH HA! Maybe we CAN get a GOOD Jinx in every now and then :-)

I must've tried 18-3 5 times earlier today(and 100's of times on previous occaisions when it wasn't working) on the 420 just for the heck of it with no luck -- but, as you say, Now it's working!

At the risk of a bad jinx ... I wonder if this might be a good sign -- If they are not running any PSIP at all(as seems to be the case presently), it might very well indicate they've found the "bug"(a "misbehaving" PSIP generator perhaps?) and are working to eliminate it --

Nitewatchman

07-09-05, 01:14 AM

dfas34

07-10-05, 12:46 PM

WBDT-DT currently remapping to 26-1 - All receivers here are decoding it fine. Also noticed they are now sending PSIP EPG info, although at one point it said "Will and Grace" was airing although it was actually Raymond ...

I'm now getting EPG info but still no pic+sound on the Humax. Your Zenith still decoding fine?

Paul210

07-10-05, 11:05 PM

I'm now getting EPG info but still no pic+sound on the Humax. Your Zenith still decoding fine?

I'm getting WBDT-DT remapped to 26-1 currently on my Zenith with pic and sound just fine, but it took a couple tries to get it to find it again.

Nitewatchman

07-11-05, 03:36 AM

Your Zenith still decoding fine?

Yep.

dusterscott

07-11-05, 06:52 AM

I'm not getting WBDT-DT. Samsung 360.

egill99

07-11-05, 08:29 PM

I was wondering if you knew the channel for Fox in Dayton for HD?? I found every other network and wanted it for the All-Star game tomorrow night. I have a Samsung T151 and just get OTA network channels.

Nitewatchman

07-11-05, 08:36 PM

egill99,

Welcome to AVS! Enjoy your new HD setup.

FOX HD Dayton(WRGT-DT) transmits OTA on Channel 30, and remaps to channel 45.1.

s1059197

07-12-05, 07:50 AM

Currently WBDT is appearing on QAM channel 109.1 on my Fusion HD card. WCET is on 109.2 - 109.6 now.
No WDTN for me.

I found WBDT at 109.20 last night. Thanks for the tip, 1450kHz.

Phil

BruteWes

07-14-05, 08:22 AM

Can anyone comment on picture quality between Time Warner Digital cable vs. Dish Network? Both HD and non-HD channels?

I'm thinking about getting TWC for a few months until MPEG-4 comes out. Anyone support this? Thanks!

hall

07-14-05, 08:30 AM

I can't comment on Dish's HD channels as I never had them. For the non-HD channels, Dish's are without a doubt better. Of course, it depends on what channels you watch. Channels like Discovery, History Channel, TLC on TWC are analog so you'll definitely notice it. TW's digital channels, especially the movie channels, are very, very good, IMO, though.

As for MPEG-4 being available from Dish in a "few months", believe it when you see it. Not saying Dish won't switch, but timeframes for things like this are estimates.

prophetvsprofit

07-15-05, 12:42 AM

Once the digital simulcast begins, Time Warner's entire channel line up will be comparable to sattalite. I've heard sometime this year though so if you want to wait a while that would be my choice. As far as HD goes, I think the dish channels look a bit sharper but I don't think there is a huge noticable difference.

hall

07-15-05, 08:23 AM

Once the digital simulcast begins... I've heard sometime this year... Unofficial word:

The digital simulcast is scheduled to be completed about the end of the 3rd quarter this year for the Cincinnati areas and the end of the first quarter of 06 for the Dayton and Troy areas.

Nitewatchman

07-15-05, 10:29 AM

Brutewes,

If you want to receive the Dayton digital/HD broadcast stations from Cincinnati(I assume that's why you are posting in this thread as well as in Cincinnati thread?), you'll need to use OTA/antenna -- which is what you need to use anyway with sat(DirecTV* or Dish network) for reception of the HD broadcast affiliates/networks(even Cincinnati ones). TW Cincy carries most of the Cincinnati digital/HD stations, except for WB HD/WSTR-DT Cincinnati.

BruteWes

07-15-05, 10:40 AM

Nitewatchman, what I was lookin for was PQ comparison between cable and satellite and the reason I posted in both is because I'm in the middle of both cities.

I understand what I need to do to get local, but I'm thinking about getting cable for now, and wanted to hear peoples opinions of TWC's PQ compared to Satellite for both HD and non-HD.

Thanks!

Nitewatchman

07-15-05, 11:01 AM

Brute,

Oh -- I assumed you were in Cincinnati metro area as that's what it says in your profile .. To a little North of Middletown, it's TW Cincy service area(and they carry Cincinnati stations - Right to Butler/Montomgery county line is Considered Cincinnati DMA) ... In South Dayton(Miamisburg/etc) however, we've had posters here say they are carrying some of the Cincinnati HD stations.

Anyways, as for the "local HD"(ABC/NBC/etc) stations PQ wise via cable, the cable carriage rules currently say cable is not allowed to "downrez" or in any way reduce the quality from what the station sends them(which is the same stream/"bits" OTA viewers get) ---- So, the HD PQ for the digital broadcast stations should pretty much be the same(OTA via a Dish network STB vs. via cable.) But, there may be differences in the quality of the output of STB from cableco vs. STB for Dish/OTA/etc.

Only other thing I could comment on is that I have Dish net(SD Only currently/w/o LIL locals - I primarily use OTA/OTA HD), and I'd say the SD PQ is good. Due to the often noticable compression artifacts(which probably aren't all that noticable to most folks), IMO, it's "close" but It's not quite as good as analog OTA quality(given good reception w/o ghosting /etc), though, and certianly better than most analog cable I've seen.

Update: Oh -- On the MPEG4 thing ... I doubt it will mean better PQ, I expect it will just allow them to squeeze more channels per transponder+allow them to expand their HD offerings. I expect it will take dish(E*) several years to migrate everything to MPEG4, I think they are starting with HD, possibily as early as this fall(even though I expect their 4 or 5 "main" HD services(TNTHD, ESPNHD, Discovery HD/etc) to be available via MPEG2+current receivers for quite some time as well.

1450kHz

07-16-05, 10:14 PM

QAM tuner folks: I'm not getting Discovery HD or TNT HD anymore. Is TWC scrambling those now?

Still seeing WHIO, WCET, WPTD, WPTO, WBDT, WRGT, WKEF, which makes me wonder if they are no longer sending Discovery-HD and TNT-HD "in the clear".

hall

07-17-05, 01:17 AM

Diagnostic mode on my TWC set-top now lists Discovery HD Theatre and TNT-HD as "Subscription" channels vs the others like WHIO-DT, WBDT-DT, WFEF-DT, etc, etc as "Clear to air".

kVp

07-17-05, 11:07 AM

Discovery HD and TNT HD have both been scrambled for several days now on my QAM tuner as well. I checked most of the other QAM channels but have not found them in the clear at another location.

hall

07-17-05, 11:50 AM

TW WOH is making lots of little changes recently. As some may have noticed, most of the OnDemand channels for shows like Cartoon Network, HGTV, etc, etc are duplicated up in the 1200 range now, to match up with how TW Cincy has them. Eventually they'll be dropped from the 175-200 range.

In TW Cincy territory, are Discovery HD and TNT-HD scrambled and have they been ??

1450kHz

07-17-05, 06:31 PM

Diagnostic mode on my TWC set-top now lists Discovery HD Theatre and TNT-HD as "Subscription" channels vs the others like WHIO-DT, WBDT-DT, WFEF-DT, etc, etc as "Clear to air".

That confirms my suspicion. Having TNTHD and Discovery HD in the clear was one reason I still have cable. Given this fact, I think I'm going to look into satellite since I can get more programming for less money that way.

BruteWes

07-18-05, 11:29 AM

Oops, thanks Nitewatchman, profile updated.

Nitewatchman

07-18-05, 08:47 PM

Noticed Fox HD(and Net upconverts via the HD splicer) has been missing from WRGT-DT since at least sometime late last week ... Wonder if anyone at the station has noticed it yet ...

Also notice HD is currently missing from WHIO-DT for Raymond .... HD fine from WKRC-DT ...

mproberts

07-19-05, 10:35 AM

I also noticed that FOX HD (WRGT) was down on TWC (Channel 745) last night. I get audio, but the screen is grey. I rebooted by DVR, but it didn't correct the problem. I was planning on calling TWC tonight when I got home to see if there was a problem.

hall

07-19-05, 11:31 AM

If Nitewatchman wasn't getting WRGT-DT via OTA there may be little point in calling TWC. The problem is with the station, not with TWC.

Nitewatchman

07-19-05, 11:37 AM

I was/am getting WRGT-DT just fine OTA -- The signal(including video) is fine, but there has been no HD, or net upconverts via the HD splicer the past several days ... Instead, it's just been the same video that the analog station uses ... The HD splicer used at Fox affiliates ALLWAYS passes through Fox programming(SD is upconverted at network level to 720p), but via the splicer the white Fox bug in the 4x3 area which is "standard" for the Fox net feed used for the analog station is not present during programming, instead, a splicer inserted bug(in WRGT-DT's case a "Fox 45" bug in 16x9 area) is used.

So, yes, something is "amiss" at the station, but also obviously something different is going on for TW viewers if they aren't getting any video at all ..

Nitewatchman

07-19-05, 08:56 PM

Good news ... I just checked and notice WRGT-DT's Splicer is on-line tonight, OTA at least ...

In addition to the white Fox bug not being there in 4x3 area(and checking HD from WXIX-DT Fox cincinnati the past few days), it really is pretty easy to tell, as even the SD upconverts done at network level look much better than what you get from the "standard" Fox SD feed the analog stations use ..

Update: Well, looks like I jinxed it ... At 9:10pm, WRGT-DT is back to using the standard Fox feed the analog stations use, meanwhile, WXIX-DT Cincinnati has FOX HD for "House" ...

------------------------

Update #2(7/20/05 8:50pm) -- Currently, FOX HD(well, whatever show this is that's on currently, it currently looks like its probably widescreen SD upconvert) is back from WRGT-DT ... Strangely however, the Splicer inserted "Fox 45" bug is not present, although WXIX-DT's splicer inserted bug is there ...

dc10forlife

07-26-05, 11:26 PM

Seeing the lull in posting ..........

After basketball season ended in March, I cancelled my TWC digital service, went down to the limited tier for $6.75 a month and kept my 3250HD box with firewire out for an additional $7.95. Plus roadrunner for $40. I can still get and record all HD locals carried by TWC plus DiscoveryHD and TNTHD onto my computer via firewire cable.

Seeing that ESPN has announced its fall football schedule, with Ohio State's October 8th game vs Penn State scheduled for either ESPNHD or ESPN2HD, I am actively considering addding back in the HD tier package. I would like to be able to record it via firewire (without 5C copy protection).

Call to TWC -- after waiting through about ten minutes of cable out in the elm street area of centerville, etc. and additional hold time, I finally spoke to a CSR where I asked a number of questions, and relayed what I was considering.

DC10forlife: I would like to add the HD tier. Will TWC be offering ESPN2HD in time for football season?

CSR: We already have ESPN2.

DC10forlife: Not in HD. There is ESPNHD but no ESPN2HD. Will TWC add ESPN2HD?

CSR: We are pleased to have added ESPNHD to our HD tier. I imagine we are in active negotiations to get ESPN2HD.

DC10forlife: I would like to add the HD Tier. Last time I had ESPNHD, TWC had enabled 5C copy protection preventing me from recording ESPNHD via firewire. Has TWC changed the 5C copy protection?

CSR: 5 SECOND PAUSE. I do not know why you wouldn't be able to record ESPNHD.

DC10forlife: So 5C copy protection on the firewire port is disabled?

CSR: Firewire? 5C?

DC10forlife: Its for people that have DVHS recorders. I, on the other hand, like to use my PC to record.

CSR: I don't believe we prevent people from recording. I don't see why you wouldn't be able to record.

DC10forlife: So 5C must be disabled. OK. Please add the HD tier for 8.95.

CSR: OK, I would be happy to assist you. 5 minute pause. It won't let me add it. 5 minute pause. I need to check with my supervisor. 5 minute pause. You have to have digital access package first for an additional $40.

DC10forlife: Why do I need the $40 package? The web site lists it as ala carte for $8.95.

CSR: You must have digital to get HD.

DC10forlife: I get the HD locals plus DiscoveryHD and TNTHD.

CSR: That is not digital. You do not have the right equipment.

DC10forlife: I have the 3250HD box.

CSR: That is unusual. That is all you need.

DC10forlife: So what prevents me from getting the HD tier?

CSR: Its just a requirement.

DC10forlife: It doesn't say that anywhere. The SD stations are unwatchable on my TV.

CSR: Thats what my supervisor told me.

DC10forlife: Can I talk with your supervisor.

CSR: I am sorry, my supervisor is unavailable at this time.

DC10forlife: Let me think it over.

CSR: Thank you for choosing TWC.

Now my question. For those that have ESPNHD, INHD1 and 2, what is the 5C copy protection status for those channels in the TWC Western Ohio area? I would like to record the potential OSU game off of ESPNHD via firewire onto my computer. Thanks.

s1059197

07-27-05, 08:26 AM

dc10forlife, that's very interesting, because I was just getting ready to call TWC to try to add the HD tier to my non-digital cable. I have a cablecard slot, so encryption shouldn't be a problem. I don't see any reason why they should have to require a digital package before you can add an HD tier. Does anyone know if there's a federal regulation that requires them to sell us HD without opting for a full digital package? I thought that was the whole idea behind the ala carte pricing.

Also, dc10forlife, you said that you are getting Discovery HD and TNT HD in the clear, along with the local network stations. Is that still the case? I'm no longer getting Discovery and TNT HD, just the local stations. Others on the board appeared to lose Discovery and TNT around the same time a few weeks ago.

Phil

dc10forlife

07-27-05, 09:24 AM

No FCC regulation that I know of which would require TWC to offer the HD tier to anyone without "digital access." Arguably, TWC's practice and advertising on its web site is a deceptive and an unfair trade practice in violation of Ohio's consumer sales practices act. It also, perhaps, violates federal anti-trust law.

Yes, I can still get DiscoveryHD and TNTHD through my 3250 box. I have not checked the encryption status, and have not recorded anything off them in the past few weeks. I'll check when I get home.

hall

07-27-05, 10:16 AM

Rakesh did just what you guys are referring to a couple of weeks ago. Go back a few pages in this thread.... He dropped whatever digital "package" he had down to "basic" service only, i.e. channels 2-25 or so. Because he kept his HD set-top, he gets the digital channels in the 700 range also. I *believe* he has, and kept, the HD Tier, but I may be wrong there.

dc10forlife

07-27-05, 12:39 PM

Thanks Hall for pointing that out.

Called TWC again, and this time had a good CSR. She said the system did not reflect that I had an HD box instead of a regular digital box. She then added the HD Tier, but for some reason also said that I needed the digital guide service for 4.95, and that she could not remove it. I took what I could get.

So, here are my prices:

Limited tier 6.75
3250 HD box w/firewire 7.95
HD Tier 8.95
Digital guide 4.95
Roadrunner: 40.00
+ tax
== $73.00/month

Can I add the FSN regional stations for 8.95, or would I be pressing my luck?

Should we call this the Rakesh.S TWC package?

hall

07-27-05, 01:55 PM

Before I made the full switch to TWC, I got a CSR on the phone, with help from her supervisor, who could set me up with the same "package" (basic + HD box + HD tier). It was around $25/month ($10 + 8 + 8 ... round numbers).

For a while, people were unable to get this stripped down option and it seemed like TWC put a complete stop to it. Nice to see it's still available.

Q of BanditZ

07-27-05, 02:31 PM

Discovery HD and TNT HD have both been scrambled for several days now on my QAM tuner as well. I checked most of the other QAM channels but have not found them in the clear at another location.

Me, too! They got "smart." ;) :( My XBR960 has a GREAT built-in tuner. Losing those now starts making me warm up to the idea of satellite yet again. I'm just worried about losing my satellite signal anytime we have a storm cloud.

I still get Fox, CBS and ABC HD so I'm assuming those are still in the clear. If those start to fall out, I'm definitely going to go satellite, no questions asked.

DC10's post also answered a question I had. For football season, I was considering adding JUST the HD tier and nothing else for all the obvious reasons. They won't let me do that without taking on that whole digital tier? Forget it! THAT is also making me consider satellite.

I'll keep TWC for Road Runner and pay $11 a month for just limited tier (2-13) but what I'm reading in this thread is confirming some things I've seen here in Lima as well.

Perhaps it's long overdue to have some of these "issues" with TWC reported to the Ohio BBB. Mr. Winget would have a field day in the Sunday paper with some of this!

Thanks Hall for pointing that out.

Called TWC again, and this time had a good CSR. She said the system did not reflect that I had an HD box instead of a regular digital box. She then added the HD Tier, but for some reason also said that I needed the digital guide service for 4.95, and that she could not remove it. I took what I could get.

So, here are my prices:

Limited tier 6.75
3250 HD box w/firewire 7.95
HD Tier 8.95
Digital guide 4.95
Roadrunner: 40.00
+ tax
== $73.00/month

Can I add the FSN regional stations for 8.95, or would I be pressing my luck?

Should we call this the Rakesh.S TWC package?

What the hell?!

Limited means only 2-13 right? I'm paying about $40 or so a month for basic (2-78) no hardware (their STB's destroy PQ. Even my mom noticed it. I refuse to pay for THAT), and Road Runner.

I pay $80.05 after tax per month. Looking at that list makes me feel VERY dumb right now. Advice?

hall

07-27-05, 03:04 PM

DC10's post also answered a question I had. For football season, I was considering adding JUST the HD tier and nothing else for all the obvious reasons. They won't let me do that without taking on that whole digital tier? Call them back again. It clearly depends on the person on the TWC end of the phone....

I'll keep TWC for Road Runner and pay $11 a month for just limited tier (2-13) but what I'm reading in this thread is confirming some things I've seen here in Lima as well. That's 'cause Dayton and Lima are in the same TWC division, "Western Ohio".

Perhaps it's long overdue to have some of these "issues" with TWC reported to the Ohio BBB. Mr. Winget would have a field day in the Sunday paper with some of this! I don't think what TWC is doing is illegal. It's quite common to require "A" in order to get "B". Sometimes it's a technical reason, other times it's simply because they want it that way.

Nitewatchman

07-27-05, 03:39 PM

No FCC regulation that I know of which would require TWC to offer the HD tier to anyone without "digital access."

Not that I'm aware of either.

Just in case anyone missed this discussion from past posts in this thread ... Again, however :

Unless the specific cableco/service area in question has been detirmined by a specific FCC order to face "effective competition" They are however, required by FCC rules to provide "in the clear"(which means available via a QAM digital "cable ready" TV, such as what is in Q of Banditz Z Sony XBR) any and all local digital broadcast signals from stations they are carrying(including via retransmission consent rules) ON their lowest cost, most basic tier of service - that includes "lifeline", or basic tiers, even via "analog" cable subscriptions. They are of course not required to advertise this fact, or to provide the equipment needed to receive those signals. I don't see anything in the rules that specifically says their CSR's are required to provide accurate info on this to their customers, but one would *think* they should have to do so.

This doesn't necessarily HAVE to mean "HD" either, but in most cases it does mean HD, if that is what they are carrying from the local stations, as the current FCC cable carriage rules for digital stations also say that the cableco isn't allowed to "downrez" what the station is sending them. So, if the agreement for carriage is for the "primary" HD signal, and not for example, something like WDTN's SD digital multicast subchannel, it obviously ends up meaning HD.

It also doesn't mean that all local digital stations will be available via cable(although they are of course all available for free OTA), only those which the broadcaster+cableco have come to an agreement for carriage. With digital currently, unless the station is "digital only" and doesn't have a analog signal at all (which isn't the case for any station in our area) for cable carriage, that means they've come to an agreement via retransmission consent, not "must carry".

This applies to broadcast stations -- which have public interest/public interest obligations(as do the cableco's that carry their signal) that do not exist for cablenets such as TNT, for which this rule doesn't apply.

That's the rule concerning this currently, as expressed in FCC's latest Order on cable carriage of digital broadcast signals from 2001. It is of course possible that this might change, along with many other things concerning cable carriage of digital broadcast signals whenever FCC "revisits" the rules -- Which Is something I think they are planning to do, at least concerning Must carry+digital during the remainder of the transistion. Who knows, but I personally wouldn't expect it to change, as what is in the "public interest" is allways of interest to the commission, and getting as many eyeballs as possible on the digital stations' signals instead of the analog signals is also important I'd think, when it comes to completing the DTV transision.

More info, Including quotes+link to the full cable carriage rules for digital broadcast stations are posted here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5869739&&#post5869739

I don't use cable, but I suppose if it were me and I was told by the TW CSR's that I couldn't get HD from the local digital/HD stations they are carrying via their "lifeline" or "basic" tiers of service, because they are "encrypted" or some such thing -- Other than just "trying it", I suppose I'd probably quote the FCC rule on this to them, and if that didn't work, I'd then ask them to provide proof that FCC has issued an order which states they've been found to face "effective competition". And, If that didn't work, I'd then probably contact FCC and inform them of the situation and apparent lack of adherence to the rules(at least according to their CSR) - OF course, as we already know from those using QAM tuners in their "digital cable ready" TV's or PC cards , TW Dayton/WOH do in fact, currently send HD from the local stations they are carrying via their most basic tier of service ....

What I think is funny is that from what I understand, it seems cableco's will often tell you that you can't get HD from the local stations on the most basic tier because they are "encrypted", and that you need to subscribe to their "HD" or "digital" tiers ... Obviously, because they want you to spend more $ ... However, even though one could make a case that the requirement is a bit "unfair" for cableco's, I think it could actually be an asset for them, as I'm sure even some satellite subscribers would also choose HD from the locals via a cable lifeline subscription rather than use OTA(even though of course in most cases they'll still be missing stations they can get OTA) ....

Q of BanditZ

07-27-05, 03:48 PM

All I can say to that is: D'oh!

I'd feel more confident about switching to satellite if I weren't constantly seeing all these DirectTV and HD-Lite type threads.

Nitewatchman

07-27-05, 03:50 PM

Limited means only 2-13 right?

Limited could mean different things depending upon your service area, and the capacity of the system in your area. For example, there are "less stringent" must-carry rules for cableco's which have less capacity. And obviously, any "analog only" cable systems out there that don't have the capacity yet to add the digital services(including digital broadcast stations) can't "add" what they don't have the capacity fo.

If the cableco is carrying digital/HD services/etc. however, while it might make sense for the analog channels -- I'm not sure "only channel 2-13" on the limited tier(as far as the digital stations they are carrying are concerned) makes any sense to me.

As, as outlined in my last post(unless they have a specific "order" from FCC saying they can do otherwise) They are required by FCC to provide ALL local broadcast signals(digital or analog) they are carrying on any other tier(in that specific service area anyway) as "in the clear" on their "limited" tier(or whatever tier is the least cost/least expensive) as well. Again, however - they are NOT required to provide the equipment(STB) to decode the digital broadcast signals(which you CAN however decode with a QAM tuner, such as the "digital cable ready" QAM tuner in XBR 960), or to adverstise this fact.

hall

07-27-05, 03:53 PM

I'd feel more confident about switching to satellite if I weren't constantly seeing all these DirectTV and HD-Lite type threads. "The grass isn't always greener on the other side"

hall

07-27-05, 04:00 PM

Limited means only 2-13 right? I'm paying about $40 or so a month for basic (2-78) In the Lima area, yes, that means channels 2-13. Go to http://www.timewarnerohio.com/, click "Change my location", and put in "45805" (may not be your zip code but it will work all the same). The page will be reloaded for the Lima area. Click on "Channel lineups and programming guide".

You have TWC's "Classic" or standard service, NOT "basic". Ref: http://www.timewarnercable.com/westernohio/products/cable/alacartepricing/north.html

As Nitewatchman said, what's included in the most limited package will vary by city.

Q of BanditZ

07-27-05, 04:09 PM

In the Lima area, yes, that means channels 2-13. Go to http://www.timewarnerohio.com/, click "Change my location", and put in "45805" (may not be your zip code but it will work all the same). The page will be reloaded for the Lima area. Click on "Channel lineups and programming guide".

You have TWC's "Classic" or standard service, NOT "basic". Ref: http://www.timewarnercable.com/westernohio/products/cable/alacartepricing/north.html

As Nitewatchman said, what's included in the most limited package will vary by city.

I'm 45805. Limited Tier alone = 2-13.

I know that just the 2-13 tier for about $11 a month is something they very deliberately don't advertise but you can do it if you wanted to.

If you follow the color codes, several HD stations are deliberately put under a digital subscription package.

In other words, I'd HAVE to subscribe to a higher programming package to get those HD stations. The HD tier alone would NOT include a few of those stations.

"The grass isn't always greener on the other side"

Sounds like. I just wouldn't mind something better than this, though.

Nitewatchman

07-27-05, 04:51 PM

According to their channel lineups, the Only digital(HD) broadcast station I can find that TW *seems* to be carrying for Q of Banditz service area(zip 45805) seems to be WTVG-DT, Toledo. This would show up on "713" if you had a TW supplied digital box, the QAM "in the clear" channel(via whatever tier of service - per FCC rules, he should be able to get this with a user supplied QAM tuner via the "limited" tier as well) is likely very different. Their lineup info seems a little wrong though, as Q has said before that he is getting HD from CBS as well ...

Those broadcast stations shown on channel 2-13 for lima/allen co. are likely refering only to the analog stations they carry.

Contrast this with the lineup of digital services from broadcast stations(this shows the HD stations they carry+ThinkTV's Multicast SD services from WPTO/WPTD ) carried shown for Fairborn(45324 - should be "pretty much" the same as dayton -- I used to live there, so I remembered the zip code ;-) -- 1450Khz has posted the QAM channel #'s for these that should also be available(per fcc rules mentioned above) via their most basic "limited" tier with a user supplied QAM tuner. Or, of course via the HD tier+a TW supplied receiver(on the channels shown below) :

707 WHIO CBS 7 Dayton
711 WPTO Digital - Think 14 DT
712 WPTO Digital - Think 14 Prime
713 WPTO Learn - Think 14 Learn
714 Think 14 HD
715 WPTO Digital - Think 14 World
716 Think TV HD
717 WPTD Digital - Think 16 DT
718 WPTD Prime - Think 16 Again
719 WPTD Kids - Think 16 Kids
720 WPTD PBS 16 Ohio
722 WKEF NBC 22 Dayton
745 WRGT FOX 45 Dayton

The analog stations corresponding to the above(whio 7 dayton) can be found in a seperate entry in the list ... for example, WHIO 7 is shown on channel 7, limited tier.

Edit/Update: LOL .. Looking at that again shows you how much they care about providing good, accurate/updated info to their customers or potential customers! OF course, WKEF has been an ABC affiliate for almost a year now! I think it has been posted here that they are carrying WCET-DT(PBS HD+several multifcast services) in fairborn area as well.

I'm just glad I have no problems receiving all those, and 2 other HD stations from Dayton and all the Cincinnati stations OTA ....

I think My "grass" is pretty green here with dropout free OTA reception from 14 Cincinnati/Dayton HD/digital stations ....

Q of BanditZ

07-27-05, 05:13 PM

dusterscott

07-27-05, 07:03 PM

FYI, ever since I 'went HD' and had the 3 LNB DirecTV dish installed last summer, I haven't had a single weather-related problem with their signal. Since I get all of my locals (Cincinnati and Dayton) OTA, I cancelled my locals with DirecTV, which knocks about $6 per month off my DirecTV bill.

Nitewatchman

07-27-05, 07:45 PM

I'm not surprised. I've had people even down in Wapakoneta tell me about better deals and such.

That's probably the first time I've seen anyone from up that way not refer to it as "wapak" ... I've even heard it on WLIO news .. It took me a while to figure out at first what they were talking about!

We're not the worst off around here, but you're one example of someone simply getting something better for your money.

I assume by "you're" you mean Dayton TW subscribers ... But, just to clarify, I do not use cable, at all -- in any shape or form. I primarily use OTA/OTA HD for TV.

Concerning the carriage of digital(HD) (or analog for that matter) broadcast stations in your area by your cableco, I'd say the reason you might get less than those TW WOH customers who live in larger market areas(such as dayton) is likely the same reason why your OTA options are limited*. Probably because you are outside the stations' coverage area - excepting WLIO, the Lima Low power analogs, and WBGU(PBS Bowling Green).

The cableco has to have a way to get the signal at their headend which serves your location, just as OTA viewers need the signal at their antenna. There are other issues besides just technical issues involved when a cableco's local service area is outside of any given station's coverage area. Another consideration is if the broadcaster+cableco have come to an agreement for carriage of their signal in your area .. a sometimes "sticky" situation, especially when it comes to digital/HD currently.

Granted -- from the subscribers POV -- It probably comes down to some TW subscribers in some areas aren't getting as much for their money as is the case in other areas ... However ... I don't think you can necessarily blame the cableco for this ... It's still going to cost them pretty much as much(maybe even more, especially in rural areas where there is more cable but fewer subscribers per mile than in larger, more populus areas) to serve you/maintain your system as it will cost them in say, Dayton/Miamisburg/Fairborn/etc.

* - By limited -- I mean you probably can't expect to use an indoor antenna, or even a "typical" VHF/UHF combo on the roof to receive all the OTA HD is out there ... However -- although I do tend to be very conservative about these things(especially as we've heard very little concerning how anyone is doing in Lima with OTA digital) .. actually .. with a really nice antenna setup(think 30~50 foot up - tower if necessary -- High gain, seperate VHF/UHF antennas+mast mount preamp+ rotor) -- You could probably do Quite well with OTA HD from Dayton(I checked and since your a bit south of lima, you're only about 60 miles from Dayton TV towers), Toledo and maybe Ft Wayne (WLIO-DT/NBC HD and WBGU-DT/PBS HD should be generally easily receivable) ..

dc10forlife

07-27-05, 10:27 PM

By way of follow up:

Got home and checked the copy protection status in the service mode. DiscoveryHD, TNTHD, INHD1 and 2, HDNET Movies, HDNET, and ESPN are all set at copy once for 5c copy protection. For some reason, before I upgraded to the HD Tier + Limited, I could still receive DiscoveryHD plus TNTHD through my 3250HD box with only the limited tier.

hall

07-27-05, 10:55 PM

People in Wapakoneta do get better rates for some reason. The "limited" tier price is regulated, I believe, by the local "franchise authority". Apparently Wapak's gov't is more persistant than Lima's (or Shawnee's).... You would pay $11.35 for limited whereas Wapakoneta customers pay $7.12-7.23. The BIG difference is in the "Classic" price: $45.99 vs $28.50 !! Then again, Wapak, Cridersville, Unionopolis / St. Johns, Columbus Grove, and St Mary's residents all get that rate. All but Columbus Grove are "close" to one another (CG being north of Lima).

hall

07-27-05, 10:57 PM

...before I upgraded to the HD Tier + Limited, I could still receive DiscoveryHD plus TNTHD through my 3250HD box with only the limited tier. Unrelated.... TWC now has those (2) channels flagged differently. They used to be flagged "Clear to air" (I believe was the wording) but are now "Subscription" channels.

hall

07-27-05, 10:58 PM

That's probably the first time I've seen anyone from up that way not refer to it as "wapak" ... I've even heard it on WLIO news .. It took me a while to figure out at first what they were talking about! If you're from the area, it's just "Wapak".

By the way, a little ways west of there is a pretty big lake.... If you live in Celina, that lake is called "Lake Celina". :D

Nitewatchman

07-27-05, 11:37 PM

If you're from the area, it's just "Wapak".

By the way, a little ways west of there is a pretty big lake.... If you live in Celina, that lake is called "Lake Celina". :D

You mean "Lake Montezuma" - Or was it "Lake Shingle Shack?" I do wonder if the establishment refered to by the latter is still there .... :-)

It's not "crater lake" but "Grand lake" for Pete's sake -- no reason to lengthen the name of course ;)

Sorry for the OT post, couldn't resist, especially the "garbled" reference from the Hank Snow song(which is actually in a TV commercial that is currently running on the nets) ...

Q of BanditZ

07-28-05, 09:54 AM

People in Wapakoneta do get better rates for some reason. The "limited" tier price is regulated, I believe, by the local "franchise authority". Apparently Wapak's gov't is more persistant than Lima's (or Shawnee's)....

You would pay $11.35 for limited whereas Wapakoneta customers pay $7.12-7.23. The BIG difference is in the "Classic" price: $45.99 vs $28.50 !! Then again, Wapak, Cridersville, Unionopolis / St. Johns, Columbus Grove, and St Mary's residents all get that rate. All but Columbus Grove are "close" to one another (CG being north of Lima).

Tell me about it. I think that's unfair.

dc10forlife

07-28-05, 11:35 AM

Unrelated.... TWC now has those (2) channels flagged differently. They used to be flagged "Clear to air" (I believe was the wording) but are now "Subscription" channels.

I think there is a distinction in what you are talking about and what I am talking about. I've done some reading, and I think I have an understanding of what is going on.

First, is your issue, whether the cable company is encrypting the QAM signals. All local broadcast stations are unencrypted on TWC. Anyone with a QAM tuner can pick them up. TWC recently turned on encryption for DiscoveryHD and TNTHD. Encryption has always been enabled for the HD Tier.

However, a STB can still decode DiscoveryHD and TNTHD if it is authorized to do so. Apparently, even though TWC recently encrypted these stations, my 3250HD box, with limited tier service, was still authorized to decode DiscoveryHD and TNTHD even after the encryption was enabled. So for those that want to continue to receive TNTHD and DiscoveryHD, get a HD set top box on the limited tier (although I suspect this would be subject to change).

Now, before the STB sends out a signal over firewire output, a few things happen. There is the EPN bit, which either is set to 1 to require the STB to enforce copy protection or it is set to 0 (to not enforce copy protection). There is also the CCI flag, which is set as "Copy Never" (typically for PPV), "Copy Once" (now everything in the HD Tier plus DiscoveryHD and TNTHD), or "Copy Freely".

Theoretically speaking (perhaps in violation of federal regulations), TWC could set the EPN bit to 1 and the CCI flag to "Copy Never" for firewire output of local channels like WHIO-HD. Thus, even though QAM decoders could still receive the channels, recording via firewire off of the STB would be prohibited.

The reverse can also be true. Even though the ESPNHD is encrypted, and QAM tuners can not pick it up, TWC could set the EPN bit to 0 and/or set the EPN bit to 1 and mark the output "copy freely". At that point, I could record ESPNHD onto my computer, but those with a QAM tuner, but not an authorized STB, could not receive ESPNHD.

So, in reality, there are two separate issues. Whether TWC encrypts the QAM signal and then how the copy protection is set on the firewire output of a set top box. I am more concerned with the latter.

Q of BanditZ

07-28-05, 11:40 AM

I think there is a distinction in what you are talking about and what I am talking about. I've done some reading, and I think I have an understanding of what is going on.

First, is your issue, whether the cable company is encrypting the QAM signals. All local broadcast stations are unencrypted on TWC. Anyone with a QAM tuner can pick them up. TWC recently turned on encryption for DiscoveryHD and TNTHD. Encryption has always been enabled for the HD Tier.

All true.

However, a STB can still decode DiscoveryHD and TNTHD if it is authorized to do so. Apparently, even though TWC recently encrypted these stations, my 3250HD box, with limited tier service, was still authorized to decode DiscoveryHD and TNTHD even after the encryption was enabled. So for those that want to continue to receive TNTHD and DiscoveryHD, get a HD set top box on the limited tier (although I suspect this would be subject to change).

You know as well as I do that a loophole like that isn't going to last long. If they can nix QAM, you KNOW they're going to take care of their own hardware.

The reverse can also be true. Even though the ESPNHD is encrypted, and QAM tuners can not pick it up, TWC could set the EPN bit to 0 and/or set the EPN bit to 1 and mark the output "copy freely". At that point, I could record ESPNHD onto my computer, but those with a QAM tuner, but not an authorized STB, could not receive ESPNHD.

So, in reality, there are two separate issues. Whether TWC encrypts the QAM signal and then how the copy protection is set on the firewire output of a set top box. I am more concerned with the latter.

Simply put: Why would TWC give a damn whether anyone can record via firewire or not? I know why any of US would like to do it, but the way the FCC has been regulating all this...what you're suggesting would be a REMARKABLE customer friendly move by TWC's part, and knowing them...I say your chances are close to zero.

TWC is going to lean towards stricter, customer limited options every time. You can count on it. If it's not to their obvious beneft, it's out. They'll easily risk losing a few customers that like to record to their PC via firewire, because those folks are in a minority and aren't important enough to make any moves for.

That's the harsh reality of the situation, no offense to anyone.

s1059197

07-28-05, 12:26 PM

I just called TWC and ordered a variant of the Rakesh.S package: Classic (analog) + High-Def Tier w/CableCard. Their order system accepted it just fine, so we'll see how the install goes on Tuesday. The package setup is really confusing on their website--the HD tier includes:

INHD
INHD2
HD Net
HD Movies
ESPN-HD

But Discovery HD and TNT HD are listed separately, under "HDTV," along with the local networks. I confirmed with her that I'd get Discovery and TNT HD along with the HDTV tier, though, and it sounds like that's been dc10forlife's experience. I'll be glad to get some full-time HD stations back. The locals just aren't cutting it for me. Now to go squeeze the extra $11.37 I'll be paying each month somewhere into the budget...

Phil

hall

07-28-05, 01:03 PM

Classic (analog) + High-Def Tier w/CableCard. The CableCard (consider it your built-in set-top box) is why you'll get the 700-range channels, including DiscoveryHD and TNT-HD.
But Discovery HD and TNT HD are listed separately, under "HDTV," along with the local networks. You mentioned their site is confusing .... yes, it is. That's a good example of how. Then again, how else would they list it ?? It's not part of the HD Tier. Looking at the page again -- note, I'm color-deficient -- they have it listed as either Classic Tier or HDTV and also as "HDTV converter required". They are (slowly) fixing it.

I see BBC American On Demand listed as channel 1200 too. They've got more of the On Demands moved to the 1200-range by now but they're at least trying to keep up. As noted earlier, WKEF is no longer NBC as they list it. I contacted "FYI Television" at least nine months ago about that error.... Heh, maybe they don't believe me....

Q of BanditZ

07-28-05, 02:13 PM

Ok, you guys are giving me some clear hope here: If I get the HD tier, I get ALL HD channels, yes? Including Discovery and TNT? That's the way I understand you all.

I have Cable Card capability as well. I'll have to look into that...

HangEmHi

07-28-05, 11:29 PM

Ok, you guys are giving me some clear hope here: If I get the HD tier, I get ALL HD channels, yes? Including Discovery and TNT? That's the way I understand you all.

Correct. You can get Discovery HD and TNT-HD (plus the local HD channels) without the HD Tier, but if you do have the HD Tier, you will get all of the HD channels (those included), except of course for the HBO HD and SHO HD channels.

s1059197

07-29-05, 11:26 AM

Then again, how else would they list it ?? It's not part of the HD Tier.

Good point. I probably should have said that I found that packaging confusing, not necessarily the site. Why should Discovery and TNT not be part of the HD tier? It seems to me like they logically belong with ESPNHD and the others. Not complaining, mind you--I just don't understand the logic.

Phil

HangEmHi

07-29-05, 01:00 PM

Good point. I probably should have said that I found that packaging confusing, not necessarily the site. Why should Discovery and TNT not be part of the HD tier? It seems to me like they logically belong with ESPNHD and the others. Not complaining, mind you--I just don't understand the logic.

Well, the most obvious thing that springs to mind is how much TW pays per subscriber for those channels. I bet that Discovery HD and TNT HD come a lot cheaper than ESPN HD (and HDNet/Movies, etc.)

hall

07-29-05, 02:16 PM

Q of BanditZ

07-29-05, 02:28 PM

I imagine TNT-HD and Discovery HD are similar to HBO-HD and Showtime-HD (and StarzHD, Cinemax's HD, etc, etc, though TWC doesn't carry 'em currently). If you get the regular channel, the HD channel is a freebie.

I'd guess that TNT and Discovery (or their parent companies) realize that a lot of people won't pay extra for those channels too.... ESPN is another story: 1) Sports fan WILL shell out the $$$$ for add'l programming and 2) ESPN gives nothing away for free !

So if I asked for just the HD tier and I take either an HD box, HD-DVR box, or a cable card...and I already have the $40 a month basic 2-78 as is?...I'll get ALL the HD channels we're talking about?

I was told yesterday that TWC actually has a waiting list for Cable Cards, so I'll have to give them a look-see soon and see what's what.

I sure am disappointed my QAM isn't allowed to pick up Disc-HD anymore, because I love that station. It's the best "HD show off" station you can find!

hall

07-29-05, 08:56 PM

Q of BanditZ

07-30-05, 12:39 PM

If you get what you ask for, you'll get channels 2-78 + WTVG ABC 13 Toledo (apparently the *only* network HD channel TWC-Lima offers) + Discovery HD Theater & TNT HD + INHD, INHD2 , HD Net, HD Movies, and HD ESPN. The last (5) channels are part of the "HD Tier".

Ballpark price for that: $45.99 (classic), $8.95 (HD DVR), $8.95 (HD Tier) = $65/month

Probably the best I can do with them. I hope that they add this ESPN 2 HD I keep hearing about.

Does a Cable Card cost about the same as the STB's, give or take?

s1059197

07-31-05, 06:37 PM

Probably the best I can do with them. I hope that they add this ESPN 2 HD I keep hearing about.

Does a Cable Card cost about the same as the STB's, give or take?

Cable card lease is $1.75/month. I don't think there's a waiting list in my area, because they're supposed to be bringing one out to my house to install on Monday.

I'm getting Classic + HD Tier + CableCard, and based on the prices quoted over the phone by the CSR, my monthly bill will be $60 even, including all taxes and fees.

Phil

dusterscott

07-31-05, 07:24 PM

My cost for DirecTV:

Subscriptions For Receiver: xxx-xxxxxx

07/29/05 08/28/05 TOTAL CHOICE-no locals Monthly 38.99
07/29/05 08/28/05 HD Package Monthly 10.99

HD Package includes ESPN HD, UHD, DISCOVERY HD, HD NETWORK, HD NETWORK MOVIES

Local Networks are received OTA in HD and/or Dolby Digital 5.1 when broadcast that way. I have one antenna for Dayton channels and one attenna for Cincinnati channels. Total cost for antenna setup was $100. So the antenna setup will have paid for itself by the end of this year.

Total Monthly Cost billed by DirecTV = $50 including all taxes and fees

s1059197

08-01-05, 09:51 AM

Total Monthly Cost billed by DirecTV = $50 including all taxes and fees

That's a great deal. I'd love to switch to D*TV, but the additional $5 fee for each receiver (I'd need 4 total) makes TWC the better choice for now. I'd also kill to have NFL Sunday Ticket, but I can't justify the cost right now... especially since they added the $100 fee for HD games this year.

Phil

Q of BanditZ

08-01-05, 02:18 PM

That's a great deal. I'd love to switch to D*TV, but the additional $5 fee for each receiver (I'd need 4 total) makes TWC the better choice for now. I'd also kill to have NFL Sunday Ticket, but I can't justify the cost right now... especially since they added the $100 fee for HD games this year.

Phil

You may want to take a moment to go into HD Programming forum and read up in DirecTV and the "HD Lite" phenomenon before you get too excited.

Cliff Notes version: DirectTV (and probably DISH does it too) compresses their video so much, for the sake of more channels, that the PQ takes a fairly noticeable hit.

I'm not going cartwheels over a prospect like that at all. Those are the kinds of things that keep me on the fence, for sure. Then you're also out of pocket for any HD related hardware. You have to remember that as well.

Cable card lease is $1.75/month. I don't think there's a waiting list in my area, because they're supposed to be bringing one out to my house to install on Monday.

I'm getting Classic + HD Tier + CableCard, and based on the prices quoted over the phone by the CSR, my monthly bill will be $60 even, including all taxes and fees.

Phil

Cablecard is CHEAPER than an STB huh? That's VERY promising!

Rakesh.S

08-01-05, 04:47 PM

s1059197

08-03-05, 08:12 AM

Sweet, merciful crap. I had the worst customer service experience ever with TWC last night. The guy came out to install my CableCard (arrived at 9:35 for a 3:30-6:00 appointment), and the first words out of his mouth were, "Do you know anything about installing a CableCard? I've never done one." No joke. I knew the basics--install the card, turn on the TV, call the dispatcher to send an activation signal--so we gave it a shot. He asked me to insert the card because he "didn't want to mess up my TV." However, he helpfully added, "I'm not incompetent or anything." So I basically did the install myself. I inserted the card, turned on the set, navigated to the menu where the CableCard number and host ID are located, and asked him to contact his dispatcher with the information. His dispatcher said that something was wrong with their PCs, because they weren't able to send the "hit" to the card. So they referred us to tier 3 support. By 11:00, we had been on hold with them for a 1/2 hour, and I said we needed to call it a night. Oh, wait--I forgot to mention the part where his buddy (another tech) came over about an hour into it, and how the two of them sat on my couch, staring dumbly at my TV and complaining about their jobs. So today, I've got a CableCard, but it's not working. I've already put a call in, and "Jason," who apparently handles these things, is supposed to call me back. We'll see how that goes. I'm thinking that I shouldn't need a tech in-house anymore, though. If this Jason guy can send the signal to my card, I should be good to go, right?

Did I mention that he also turned on a jack for me in another room, and how I discovered this morning that he only turned on channels 2-20 instead of 2-78?

Phil

s1059197

08-04-05, 09:53 AM

Sweet, merciful crap. I had the worst customer service experience ever with TWC last night.

Just a follow-up: I called customer support last night after work, and a got a competent CSR. The two of us figured the whole thing out and had it working in 15 minutes. To anyone else considering getting the Rakesh.S package, beware that there are people all along the way, from CSR to installer, who don't know anything about their tiers and how they work. I was told at various points that a Cable Card can't get HD channels, that I have to have a full DigiPic package to get HD channels, that the HD tier doesn't include anything but the local networks, and so on. Just be persistent, and they'll figure it out.

Phil

Q of BanditZ

08-05-05, 04:12 PM

Just a follow-up: I called customer support last night after work, and a got a competent CSR. The two of us figured the whole thing out and had it working in 15 minutes. To anyone else considering getting the Rakesh.S package, beware that there are people all along the way, from CSR to installer, who don't know anything about their tiers and how they work. I was told at various points that a Cable Card can't get HD channels, that I have to have a full DigiPic package to get HD channels, that the HD tier doesn't include anything but the local networks, and so on. Just be persistent, and they'll figure it out.

Phil

You mean I HAVE to have someone come and install it? I can't just drive 5 minutes down the street to the local branch, pick up the cable card, and do it myself? I don't want to be bothered with what you went through!

Nitewatchman

08-05-05, 05:45 PM

For those of you in Lima area, Found this bit(which corresponds with Q of BanditZ earlier report on this from a few weeks ago) on WLIO's Website, way down the page(may not be long before it "scroll's off!" Here ( http://www.wlio.com/localnews.asp ) :

"A NEW LOOK
If you have high definition television Friday was a great day for you! As of airtime... NBC-Lima is now transmitting in high definition. The Federal Communications Commission mandated all television stations transition to digital, which is why NBC-Lima now has WLIO-DT, Channel Eight. As of six Friday Night, those who own high definition systems or have a converter box can now access some of our stations programming in high def. News and reality television will not be shot in high def, however shows like Law and Order, Conan O’Brien, and Jay Leno will now have a more crisp, clean, and detailed look... HD-TV is only available to those with digital sets who can get WLIO-DT Channel Eight. Those with conventional analog sets will not be able to receive high definition. This is a quarter of a million dollar project. "
:end quote
-------------------------------------------

Unfortunetly --- Farther up on their local news page(I assume this is a more "recent" devlopment) -- I also found this - I assume it's probably the analog station only having problems, but, they don't say whether or not it is just the analog station, or if they are having problems with both the analog and digital station :

:quote:

"Transmission Problems
Transmitter issues are causing headaches for WLIO. The station has been on and off the air for the last couple days. A problem with transmitter is preventing NBC Lima from broadcasting with our over the air signal. Customers of Time Warner Cable and Watch TV, are able to receive our programming. For those who thought their TV sets are broken or are confused by not being able to find our signal....we apologize. Repairs are being made. It’s unknown when NBC Lima, WLIO TV signal will return. We will keep you posted. "

:end quote

Nitewatchman

08-05-05, 06:21 PM

You mean I HAVE to have someone come and install it? I can't just drive 5 minutes down the street to the local branch, pick up the cable card, and do it myself? I don't want to be bothered with what you went through!

In at least most cases from what I understand -- I think they probably require a tech(competent or no) to install the card ... I.e. - Plug it into the "Cablecard" slot on the back of your XBR and call the office to have it authorized ....

There are a number of threads in the hardware area concerning cablecards which you might find useful.

Here are links to a couple of those threads:

This one is called : CableCARD Tested! Golly Gee, It Really Works! Here's My Experience, Post Yours Here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=419356&page=1

This one is titled "Cablecards : Ready to Give up :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=557810&page=1

Q of BanditZ

08-05-05, 06:54 PM

Batting a thousand as always, Jeff. :)

Nitewatchman

08-06-05, 07:30 PM

I wish! Thanks, tho.

s1059197

08-08-05, 08:38 AM

You mean I HAVE to have someone come and install it? I can't just drive 5 minutes down the street to the local branch, pick up the cable card, and do it myself? I don't want to be bothered with what you went through!

Maybe all of the techs aren't as useless as the one I got. Although the 4 or 5 other techs that he called that night were. My brother is about to get the same thing up in NE Ohio, and when he called for the appointment, they told him that they have a limited number of techs who are experienced with CableCARDS, and those are the only ones they send on these jobs. Seems like a logical thing to do. His HD Tier ala carte is also only $6.75.

Phil

Q of BanditZ

08-08-05, 11:26 AM

Maybe all of the techs aren't as useless as the one I got. Although the 4 or 5 other techs that he called that night were. My brother is about to get the same thing up in NE Ohio, and when he called for the appointment, they told him that they have a limited number of techs who are experienced with CableCARDS, and those are the only ones they send on these jobs. Seems like a logical thing to do. His HD Tier ala carte is also only $6.75.

Phil

That's stupid. I'd rather just install the Cable Card myself. A 4 year old child could do it. They don't NEED to send anyone out to my house.

If I drive down the street to my local branch and I ask them to add JUST the HD Tier a la carte and put a Cable Card in my hands...I just don't see what the big deal is.

Talk about adding extra, needless steps! :rolleyes:

Nitewatchman

08-08-05, 12:28 PM

Well, I don't know how TW has your drop configured but it is possible a tech may be required to "configure" the drop(the cable line) to your house - Not necessarily a cablecard specific thing I wouldn't think.

Cableco's often use various filters to "block" certian frequencies - such as channels you don't subscribe to (probably more used for analog cable instead of encryption, but who knows) or "return path" filters for cable modem to keep interference from effecting your(or your neighbors) uploads.

Rakesh.S

08-08-05, 04:02 PM

well the new tv season is almost here, at least football is(preseason game tonight on ABC) and we still don't have 5.1 sound...go figure.

I guess it'll happen "next summer" :-\

dusterscott

08-08-05, 07:09 PM

And over on the Cincinnati thread they are talking about the poor PQ (jaggies). I think I'll go for the better PQ since I have a choice.

Q of BanditZ

08-08-05, 08:04 PM

And over on the Cincinnati thread they are talking about the poor PQ (jaggies). I think I'll go for the better PQ since I have a choice.

Poor PQ because of what? What are you going to go to for better PQ?

dusterscott

08-08-05, 08:06 PM

Sound is more important than PQ for you? I prefer without jaggies.

dusterscott

08-08-05, 08:08 PM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6002699#post6002699

Q of BanditZ

08-08-05, 08:13 PM

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6002699#post6002699

That makes baby Q cry.

PQ Priority one: Steer me to the promised land! NOW! ;)

Nitewatchman

08-08-05, 10:31 PM

Speaking of HD PQ, can anyone "up north" tell us how WLIO-DT is doing ?

Are they multicasting? If not, I think they would be the only NBC affiliate within 150 miles of here which isn't, currently ....

WLIO-DT current low power STA(430 watts ERP at 197FT HAAT, 1035FT ASL) probably won't quite make it to Dayton -- but, once they go full power(30KW ERP at 541 FT HAAT, 1391FT ASL) - Which should hopefully be before their full power "use it or lose it" deadline of 7/1/2006 -- It'll probably be a real possibility for Dayton(especially North Dayton) with a VHF-HI Yagi pointed North .... might need to trap out analog WHIO 7 if you're too close to WHIO until analog shut off though ...

Q of BanditZ

08-09-05, 01:15 PM

I went down to the local TWC branch and, to my amazement, they didn't bat an eye at me when I talked about JUST getting the HD tier and the cable card. This would add maybe $11 to my present bill, which I think is fairly reasonable given everything else.

Now, the thing that I didn't really like was that they told me I HAVE to have a tech come out to install the cable cards and that it can take up to an HOUR or so to get it done right. The other thing they told me is that NO ONE yet (at least in Lima and that area) has even bothered taking out a Cable Card yet, so I'd probably be amongst the first of the guinea pigs, at least in Western Ohio.

Not the most confidence inspiring session, but clearly the most cost effective. Thoughts?

s1059197

08-10-05, 07:55 AM

Not the most confidence inspiring session, but clearly the most cost effective. Thoughts?

Just brace yourself for the worst. It's best to learn as much as possible in advance about what needs to happen during the installation. I don't know what kind of TV you have, but after my experience, I wrote down the procedure for my Sony 42WE655 model (would apply to all xxWE655 models) to send to my brother, who was about to have the same thing done to the same TV. If you're interested in seeing that, send me a PM with your email address.

Once you get it all worked out, it really is a great price for what you get. Just hold on to that when your tech is desperately calling his buddies for help.

Phil

Q of BanditZ

08-10-05, 11:51 AM

Just brace yourself for the worst. It's best to learn as much as possible in advance about what needs to happen during the installation. I don't know what kind of TV you have, but after my experience, I wrote down the procedure for my Sony 42WE655 model (would apply to all xxWE655 models) to send to my brother, who was about to have the same thing done to the same TV. If you're interested in seeing that, send me a PM with your email address.

Once you get it all worked out, it really is a great price for what you get. Just hold on to that when your tech is desperately calling his buddies for help.

Phil

I have the Sony KD-34XBR960, so I suspect I'd be seeing a simillar situation to what you had.

Nitewatchman

08-10-05, 01:06 PM

On Sony KD-34XBR960, it looks like Cablecard setup is accessed from User menu/Applications/CableCARD selection. Unfortuntely, it looks like you can't access the "CableCARD" menu selection to see what is "in there"/what needs to be configured unless a CableCARD is inserted.

BTW, Except that I'd rather have it via a "signal meter" button on the remote instead of having to get to it through menu -- I really like the XBR960's "Signal diagnostics" screen for ATSC(OTA digital). VERY cool. I wonder if other current Sony Models with internal ATSC/QAM tuners have this?

In talking to a couple of folks with the Hauppage PC tuner card, It's very similar to what you get from Hauppage WINTV-D's signal diagnostics screen, except that instead of actual AGC voltages with the Hauppage card you get a % reading. I also don't think the Hauppage has a "signal strength bar". From what I can tell from the Service manual schematic, It loooks like the internal ATSC receiver uses a recent ATI chipset, which seems to work quite well here anyway.

It's in the User Menu/Applications/diagnostics selection(right next to the "CableCARD" selection). The user manual doesn't really say anything useful about it, but It's for OTA ATSC 8VSB signals coming into its internal ATSC receiver from the VHF/UHF antenna input, and I assume it might work with cable QAM as well.

Tuning to a major+minor channel number(such as 7.1 for WHIO-DT or 41.1 for its physical channel)from ant or cable input will allow you to access the signal diagnostics screen.

Intrestingly enough -- in some cases You can even "trick it" and to some extent see a noise level indiction from a analog station on it's "signal bar". If for instance you are in or near Dayton, Tune to 40.1,(since there is no digital station on OTA physical ch 40), and assuming you are getting much of a signal from this low power station -- you'll actually get a reading of the noise from WRCX-LP 40 Dayton analog(The Max it will show on the meter this from "analog station noise" however is a reading of "41" for some odd reason).

digcam Screenshots Attached of the "diagnostics" screen on XBR960. Note : The SNR reading doesn't necessarily mean that's ALL the Signal over noise your antenna(or again via QAM cable I assume) is getting, instead it's a reading that also depends upon what AGC(automatic gain control)is doing. For signals that are truly around theshold for perfect DTV reception(~16db of SNR), it should be fairly accurate, however. It does certianly appear like the "signal strength" Bar really is to some extent a "real" signal(or noise!) strentgh indication, unlike many "signal meters" on ATSC receivers. Also, it will say "modulation: 8VSB" even if all you are looking at is "noise" with no modulation, or NTSC(AM for video/FM for audio of course.)

description of attached screen shots :

At top - Readings from WCVN-DT 24, KET, Covington, KY 39 miles (Solid reception).

Top right - A Weak, dead band 8VSB signal, below Threshold from WBNS-DT 21 Columbus(78 miles).

Bottom left - "tuned" to 25.1 -- The "41" reading on the signal bar isn't actually from a 8VSB signal, but instead is "noise" from a NTSC station ... In this case, WOTH-LP 25 Cincinnati(32 Miles).

Bottom Right - "tuned" to 69.1 - (no signal present on 69) - the "2" in the signal bar indicates the "noise floor" it's seeing is slightly above "0" (whatever "0" is - not much, that's for sure) ...

rrleon1

08-11-05, 09:10 PM

Just curious- channels 702 (WDTNHD) and 726 (WBDTHD) still show up in the diagnostic mode. Has anyone heard when TW (s. dayton) is going to add these to the lineup? BTW, those lame games are still on channel 800 also.

hall

08-12-05, 05:38 PM

I wish TW would tell WDTN and WBDT they're done negotiating and that they're going to carry Cincy's NBC and WB channels. Once the southern portions of "Western Ohio" TW are merged with TW-Cincy, it would seem much more feasible !

Nitewatchman

08-12-05, 05:45 PM

I don't think it matters what the cableco calls itself, or where HQ is, with commercial stations it has more to do with the DMA boundaries and the head end that serves any given community ....

Per their affiliation agreement with the network -- the local affiliate in the market has the SOLE rights for distribution of the network programming WITHIN that market, so if TW carried those stations(unless the Dayton station said it was "OK") it would likely have to be blacked out during network programming that the local affiliate is carrying, whether or NOT that station(Dayton affiliate) is carried on the local cable system ...

FWIW, I'd Just use OTA and not worry about it .... around here, in addition to the "missing" NBC+WB HD from Dayton -- YMMV, but for the most part, depending upon your location you can also receive stations from other markets as well as Dayton ... They have no way of "blacking out" OTA signals of course ....

DaytonBuckeye

08-17-05, 12:21 PM

Hello,

as a long time Directv subscriber, I am considering a switch to Time Warner cable. I am interested in getting your opinions on how TWC's HD picture quality compares to that of Directv's picture quailty.

What is your take on TWC's digital cable and HD package?

Thanks,

osu fan

08-17-05, 02:27 PM

Hey Rich, I've never had a dish, but I'm very pleased with TW digital cable. I have the digipac 2000 for $69 a month. I have a cable card, which I guess is free. I thought it was a $1.75 a month but they have never charged me for it. Looks great on my 61" Samsung DLP. This is my HD channel line up:

HBO HD
SHO HD
INHD
INHD2
ESPN HD
HDNET
HDNET movies
ABS HD
CBS HD
FOX HD
DISCOVERY HD
TNT HD
PBS HD

Nitewatchman

08-19-05, 08:42 PM

My -- HD Vikings/Jets game looks good on WHIO-DT as compared to previous years of HD football from WHIO-DT ... Especially since WKRC is multicasting a SD radar now ... I am so glad WHIO FINALLY dropped that SD sub earlier this year! I hope it stays this way ...

Given the higher quality HD from WKEF-DT/WHIO-DT, and DD 5.1 from WHIO-DT and WDTN-DT -- No real difference worth mentioning for WB HD(WSTR-DT/WBDT-DT) or Fox HD(WXIX-DT/WRGT-DT) -- It's a "toss up" for PBS HD as well, since both Cincy/Dayton stations offer something a little different - Moreso with the programming schedule+DD 5.1 from WCET-DT/WCVN-DT than PQ wise, although WCET-DT/WCVN-DT has WPTD-DT's PBS HD PQ beat :

Still All in all, I think Dayton market has Cincy beat when it comes to HD these days ... If I were in Cincy area, I think I'd certianly be aiming my antenna towards Dayton for ABC HD/CBS HD .....

I think the best HD PQ(and the best station SD upconverts) in Cincinnati currently come from WSTR-DT(WB HD) - Which is the ONLY Cincinnati digital station that isn't multicasting presently, and also The only Cincinnati digital station the Cincy area cableco's don't carry ...

tbuck410

08-20-05, 11:30 AM

Just wondering if anyone in the WOH TWC area has been successful in using the HDMI out on their SA8300HD box. It seems that every TWC area uses different versions of software.

Thanks.

tbuck410

08-20-05, 11:42 AM

I am very pleased with the PQ on TWC on my Samsung TX-P3264 CRT for SD and HD. I also have D-TV for Sunday Ticket, not HD because I didn't want to spend $500 for a HD DVR. I think the PQ is better for TWC. But I have not been impressed with the tech support for TWC. I am trying to get the HDMI ouput to work on my SA8300HD and they will only say that they don't support HDMI. But a lot of other TWC areas and users are using it.

hall

08-20-05, 01:40 PM

tbuck410

08-20-05, 03:24 PM

Check this thread, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=453804. You should be able to go to the end of the thread, back up 5-10 pages, and start reading and find what you're after. I'm positive that people on WOH can use the HDMI output with MOST televisions but I do know that some people with projectors have issues. I'm using the 8300HD but I'm running HDMI-to-DVI.

What kind of TV do you have ??

I do get an error message if I turn the box on before my TV. It says my TV isn't HDCP compliant, if I recall correctly. You simply turn the TV on first, wait a second or two, then turn the 8300 on.

I have checked out that thread at length and no one has confirmed use of HDMI-out. I have a Samsung TX-P3264 CRT with DVI, so I am also using HDMI-DVI. The diag page for "Copy Protection Policy" says: HDMI port: Block HDMI - HDCP auth failed. If anybody's HDMI is working, please check this for me. I really need this input.

Thanks

hall

08-20-05, 05:43 PM

Just checked my box.... Mine says the exact same thing as yours. On the DIAG menu, look at the "Versions" page. The first entry is the software that you're box has. As I understand it, you can't run "old" versions of software - it's updated automatically. It is possible that you're using newer software but I think they'd contact you first and ask you to help test it. Anyway, I have v1.8.103. I'm pretty sure outside of a few people who are testing for TW, this is the latest they have available.

Try swapping for a new box. Try a different cable. With an analog TV such as yours, there's not a huge benefit in using DVI.

tbuck410

08-20-05, 07:01 PM

DavidS

08-25-05, 11:10 AM

Local Networks are received OTA in HD and/or Dolby Digital 5.1 when broadcast that way. I have one antenna for Dayton channels and one attenna for Cincinnati channels. Total cost for antenna setup was $100. So the antenna setup will have paid for itself by the end of this year.

I'm up the river in Carlise and just got an HDTivo and OTA antenna set up and receive the Dayton stations great. Cinci would require a second antenna, as you did, pointed in the other direction. What antenna did you use for Cinci? Also, did you just combine the two antenna outputs onto one cable?

dusterscott

08-25-05, 11:31 AM

No, I ran separate cables and use a remote-controlled a/b radio shack switcher indoors. The antenna I use for Cinci channels was just the cheap Sensar one that D* provided me last August. It's not the best but works well for me. You could probably pick one up from radio shack cheaper. Nightwatchman should be able to suggest a couple of other good choices.

DavidS

08-25-05, 01:46 PM

Nitewatchman

08-25-05, 03:23 PM

DavidS,

Combining antennas(except seperate VHF/UHF antennas with the use of a VHF/UHF joiner/combiner) aimed in different directions onto the same feedline puts the antennas out of phase, and is likely to create multipath difficulties. For this reason and a few others, it is generally a "no-no", but it is possible to occasionally get lucky - probably not in your location, however. I think best bet is to use a rotor or seperate antennas on seperate feedlines+A/B switch as Dusterscott mentioned.

You might want to try aiming your current antenna at Cincinnati first to see what you get with it to get an idea of how much performance/what sort of antenna you might need for good reception of the Cincinnati stations. If you let us know how that works out+what the make model of your current antenna is, we might be able to give you some good ideas concerning what sort of antenna you might want to get.

Keep in mind - all the Dayton digitals transmit on UHF -- at this point looks like it will stay that way after analog shut off. Cincinnati however has WCPO-DT (ABC HD) on VHF channel 10, and looks like WKRC-DT(CBS HD - currently on UHF 31) will move to VHF channel 12 after analog shut off. The rest of the Cincy digitals are UHF.

Carlisle is in a bit of a "low spot", and terrain issues could especially be a issue for you the farther West you are, as that big "hill" chamberlin rd. goes up could be in the signal paths towards Cincinnati(To your SSW). It is Probably generally pretty easy to get good reception from the Dayton stations with any old coathanger from your location - that may or may not be true for Cincinnati - perhaps especially for WSTR-DT currently (WB HD - Currently at Low power), WCVN-DT(KET/PBS HD) in N KY which is at full power but with a lower transmitting antenna height than the other Cincinnati stations, or for good reception of the low power Cincinnati analogs.

einstein37

08-26-05, 02:15 AM

I used to have a HD STB from TWC. I got fed up with the poor quality of the box so I got rid of it. I used my TV's digital tuner to get the HD channels after I took the box back to them. I was able to get CBS, ABC, FOX, PBS, Discover HD and TNT HD. The problem is up until a few weeks ago I got all those channels, but now I get only ABC, CBS and FOX. Before I call customer service about I want to know, should I be able to get those channels? I do not want the crappy box again. For one thing it only had component out and I already have thos used up on my TV. I have an open HDMI, but I really just want to use my TV alone with now STB. Thanks for any info you have.

hall

08-26-05, 07:29 AM

They stopped sending TNT-HD and DiscoveryHD Theatre "in the clear" a few weeks ago, as discussed in this thread.....

DavidS

08-26-05, 10:21 AM

s1059197

08-26-05, 11:33 AM

I used to have a HD STB from TWC. I got fed up with the poor quality of the box so I got rid of it.

If your TV has a CableCard slot, you can get all the HD channels that you were getting earlier, plus several others, for ~$10/month. No set top box required; no loss of signal quality. For more details, search this thread for "Rakesh.S Package". We had a pretty robust discussion about it recently.

Phil

Nitewatchman

08-26-05, 01:50 PM

Switching or rotating the antenna wouldn't work for me because I want the DTV HD Tivo to record automatically.

It is unfortunate that something as simple as 2 antenna inputs on your HDtivo, used with seperate Dayton/Cincinnati antennas would take care of this for you ...

It is just my opinion but I still wouldn't necessarily cut down your options just because of a A/B switch or rotor ....

I think I can actually see some of the towers from my roof

Yes, The Dayton antenna farm isn't far from you .... They are Southwest of Dayton a couple of miles in West Dayton/Moraine, on the hill between I-75 and RT 4 ...

I would think Cincinnati stations should generally be pretty easy to receive from your location as well ... I don't think terrain should be an issue for your location ...Things might be different if you were west of the "UFO's" on 123 ...

OF course, there is also no harm in TRYING combining of 2 seperate antennas onto one feedline to see if it works(just use a 2 way splitter used "backwards" to combine them) ... You never know -- you MIGHT get lucky, especially as it seems like the Cincy/Dayton towers would probably be about 180 apart from your location..... There is another problem involved if one of the antennas are amplified +receive power from a power supply via the coax .... If so, You'd need to put the power supply for it between the antenna+the combiner ....

Q of BanditZ

08-27-05, 11:24 AM

I doubt I'll do this, but...if I went out of pocket and BOUGHT a nice Cable box from a top tier company...would that provide me better PQ vs. the cable boxes they rent out to you? HD DVR or otherwise?

I guess if I want ESPN HD and such, my best bet will be to have them come out and install the Cable Card, and I get to be a guinea pig of sorts. :rolleyes:

Dare I even ask when TWC might get ESPN HD 2? It sure would be nice to have that in place for football season this year, like the DirecTV folks are going to enjoy...

hall

08-27-05, 01:11 PM

I doubt I'll do this, but...if I went out of pocket and BOUGHT a nice Cable box from a top tier company... You can't do that. Well, you can, but when TW refuses to "allow" it on their system, don't b*tch at TW.

cranston

08-27-05, 04:27 PM

OK, so I ordered up the Rakesh package (2-78 + cablecard). HDTV is a Panny PT-53WXD63.

Tech comes out here, his second CC install. First one didn't work out ... o, the bleeding edge of technology.

After much fiddling (centered around the first CC apparently being bad), we got it to work. Sort of. All the local channels decode in the 700 range, but none of these do:

755 Discovery HD Theater
756 TNT HD
760 INHD
761 INHD2
762 HD Net
763 HD Movies
765 ESPN-HD

Escalated to Tier 3, but that didn't help -- Tier 3 said "swap the card", but as we were already into the second card, that wasn't a good suggestion. I agreed to keep the card for a couple days in case it fixes itself (hard to see all the voodoo going on). If it doesn't work, we'll send it back.

Too bad I wasn't one of the lucky ones to have it work out of the box. S1059197 -- did yours eventually work?

Any help/thoughts/advice is appreciated.

FOLLOWUP (6PM)

Well, this is not going so good. I reconnected everything (had disconnected the interior architecture, and connected the HDTV direct to the cable, with no amps or splitters), and now my analog picture quality is positively terrible. Nothing should be worsened from this day -- tech removed a useless splitter in his side of the outside box. One end of the splitter went into the house for distribution, and the other end went up the outside to a room which I never connected in the 15 years I've been here. I had him remove the splitter, and he connected the cable direct into the distribution. Should be a quick 3 dB gain into the house, right? Read on.

I reconnected everything as it was previously: cable into two way splitter each output going into two 20 dB amps, each amp into a 4 way splitter. Total 6 devices, with two additional terminators. Before fornication, quality was good (not excellent) everywhere. I could live with it. No TiVos, or anything like that in play.

Now, when I saw the lousy analog quality, I got out a 50 ft RG6 cable (with "proper" connectors installed -- my connector installing skills are not world renowned), and ran it direct from the outside box to one of the previously working OK analog drops, and the quality was still terrible. I even hooked it up to the input on one of the amps, and fed the output to the device. A tiny bit better, but not much.

Yeah, and the channels I mentioned above still don't come in. I have to have the cable connected direct to the HDTV to get any of the public TV stations, and still no Discovery, ESPN, etc. So if I want to watch TV anywhere else in the house, I only end up with 707, 722 and 745. In other words, I'm no better than before HDTV wise, with a noticeable dropoff in analog quality.

So, the questions:

1. When TWC set me to CableCard, did anything else get changed on their side? While I don't have the ability to measure, I gotta believe, with nothing changed, my signal should be better. Seat of the pants viewing says otherwise.

2. Can I expect a miracle to happen, and the CC will wake up with the "other" channels? Is there a setting on the TWC side at the head end to wake up those channels?

3. Can TWC do anything in their side of the box to boost their signal, or am all I now entitled to (after 15 years of TWC) is a lower quality signal because I tried this (yeah, that's what I'm thinking)? If so, I'm going to have to think long and hard about Mr Dish.

---------------------

Another update 730PM

After I hit send on the last diatribe, I see the fam crowded around the breakfast table watching Std Def TV. Picture quality is back to where it was. Cue the Twilight Zone music. What's more, the HDTV now gets the public TV stations, and the jaggies are way down. Honest to God, it was horrible at 6PM, but by 630PM, all was well.

I wonder if the video elves, fairies and sprites will give me ESPN, TNT and Discovery?

C'ya
Cran

Thoughts, help, etc, appreciated

Cran

Q of BanditZ

08-27-05, 07:43 PM

^^ You're not giving me a lot of confidence in having TWC come out and set me up with a Cable Card... ;)

Rakesh.S

08-27-05, 08:58 PM

If you guys could spare a few minutes, please email "Mr.DTV" at the following address asking about what's going on with 5.1 sound and when it will be set up at WKEF . They seem to respond when they get more than one email about an issue. The email form on WKEF's site is pointless. This goes directly to sinclair, so go ahead and mention WKEF.

dtv@sbgi.net

The more people that email, the faster it gets taken care of. I would really love to see Lost in 5.1 this season....MNF in 5.1 wouldn't be bad either.

Thanks.

hall

08-27-05, 11:42 PM

cranston

08-27-05, 11:52 PM

^^ You're not giving me a lot of confidence in having TWC come out and set me up with a Cable Card... ;)

Yeah, between 530 and 630, I was really questioning my sanity for signing up. This would've been a done deal for $10 a month if they had had TNT up and running, and I could watch the night race at Bristol in HD. As it stands, 3 more left-wing PBS channels for $10 a month doesn't cut it for me.

I've just gotta believe they've got to set something on their end to actually wake up the missing channels. They map out right where they're supposed to be in the 750s and 760s (including showing up as 720p), but there's no picture or sound. Just like all the rest of the digital tier -- all those channels are there, too, but just not alive. Anyone else have this same or similar problem?

It's unfortunate, no techs have enough CC experience under their belts to come up with rules of thumb yet. This tech told me that there were 60-70 techs in Dayton, and there's not enough people who want CCs. I will say this -- this tech actually came out with *two* cablecards, and he rightly deserves big props for that. In fact, as one CC simply didn't work, that should be a rule of thumb. He was also willing to escalate up to Tier 3 when he didn't know the answer. I know it wasn't his fault -- he was trying as hard as he could.

C'ya
Cran

cranston

08-27-05, 11:57 PM

cranston: The channels you're *not* getting are encrypted and require authorization. Safe bet that your account (or the card) isn't set up properly. Call them back -- they're open 24 hours a day -- and be sure that they have the right "packages" listed for your account. When that's all confirmed (and probably *corrected*), they'll re-hit the card.

You mention that you ordered the "Rakesh S" package. Did you ask for TW's "HD Tier" ?? You mention just channels 2-78. Yes, I realize that will get you the 700 channels (WHIO, WKEF, etc, etc) but it will NOT get you InHD, InHD2, ESPN-HD, and the others. DiscoveryHD and TNT-HD I'm not sure of anymore.... People USED to get those 'cause they were broadcast "in the clear" but they're not any longer.

That was a good suggestion, hall. I called and after much silence and button pushing, the channels came up. Somebody ought to build a Rakesh S FAQ -- "you have to call for the HD Tier after the card comes alive."

It really was spooky that I had a bunch of snowy TVs who straightened right up without me doing anything except fretting earlier yesterday. Sometimes I guess the best is to do nothing.

Thanx for the advice. I might just keep this for a few weeks.
Cran

Q of BanditZ

08-28-05, 11:19 AM

Yeah, between 530 and 630, I was really questioning my sanity for signing up. This would've been a done deal for $10 a month if they had had TNT up and running, and I could watch the night race at Bristol in HD. As it stands, 3 more left-wing PBS channels for $10 a month doesn't cut it for me.

Ridiculous.

When I went into the TWC office here, they told me that I could sign up for JUST the HD tier alone plus the Cable card and it would be about $10-$11 a month extra on my bill.

Basically, because of the current setup, the only "extra" I'd really be getting is ESPN HD, which I really want for football, TNT-HD and Discovery HD, both of which I had anyways until a month ago when these were suddenly scrambled out.

Basically, the only reason I'd even do this is I want ESPN HD and ESPN HD 2 eventually, for football. That's my first priority.

It's either this, or I guess I'm going to need to consider taking my chances with DirecTV or DISH.

I've just gotta believe they've got to set something on their end to actually wake up the missing channels. They map out right where they're supposed to be in the 750s and 760s (including showing up as 720p), but there's no picture or sound. Just like all the rest of the digital tier -- all those channels are there, too, but just not alive. Anyone else have this same or similar problem?

You know they've got ways. ;)

It's unfortunate, no techs have enough CC experience under their belts to come up with rules of thumb yet. This tech told me that there were 60-70 techs in Dayton, and there's not enough people who want CCs. I will say this -- this tech actually came out with *two* cablecards, and he rightly deserves big props for that. In fact, as one CC simply didn't work, that should be a rule of thumb. He was also willing to escalate up to Tier 3 when he didn't know the answer. I know it wasn't his fault -- he was trying as hard as he could.

C'ya
Cran

Hats off to them for sure, but it's up to TWC and other cable companies to TRAIN THESE GUYS and obviously, they're failing miserably in that regard.

s1059197

08-28-05, 06:52 PM

After much fiddling (centered around the first CC apparently being bad), we got it to work. Sort of. All the local channels decode in the 700 range, but none of these do:

755 Discovery HD Theater
756 TNT HD
760 INHD
761 INHD2
762 HD Net
763 HD Movies
765 ESPN-HD

Too bad I wasn't one of the lucky ones to have it work out of the box. S1059197 -- did yours eventually work?

I realize you've already got this working, but it may be worth responding for the benefit of others who are getting the CC.

When they first put in my CC, I had the same result as you--all of the HD network stations in the 700s worked fine, but the HD Tier stations you list above didn't. I was able to determine from my TV's menu that the CC had not yet received a signal from TW. (Even though they had suposedly sent a signal.) I'm no expert, and this is just my guess, but it appears to me that the CC itself contains the information about what channels are available on TW's network. As soon as we plugged in the card, the TV was able to access stations that it never could before, and they were all labeled, even though they couldn't be tuned in. For example, I was able to browse through the HBO stations, but not tune them, and before the CC was installed my TV never even knew they were there. So I'm guessing that the CC let our TVs tune to the HD locals, and since they're not encrypted, we were able to see them. But we weren't able to tune any of the other HD stations because they're encrypted, and it took a successful "hit" from a CSR to allow the CC to decode them.

So the CC, when first installed, tells the TV where to find TW's channels. And after it gets a hit, it allows the TV to decode the channels you've purchased. If you can tune to HD locals but not other channels in the HD tier, you've got a functioning CC that still needs a hit from TW.

As an aside, as soon as my tech saw that I was getting HD locals, he assumed the job was done and handed me paperwork to sign. But when I saw that I wasn't getting everything else on the HD tier, I explained to him that something wasn't right. (That's when I checked the menu and saw that my card was still not authorized.) Both this tech and his buddy (whom he had called in to help) tried to tell me that I hadn't purchased anything more than the HD locals. I understand that CCs are new, and we're all guinea pigs, but there's no excuse for techs to know so little about even the packages that TW offers, let alone the CC technology/process.

Too bad I wasn't one of the lucky ones to have it work out of the box.

FWIW, I know of 6 people who have attempted to get a CC from TW. Only 1 of them have had it work "out of the box."

Phil

Q of BanditZ

08-29-05, 12:39 PM

FWIW, I know of 6 people who have attempted to get a CC from TW. Only 1 of them have had it work "out of the box."

Phil

I wouldn't play those odds in Vegas. ;)

Nitewatchman

08-30-05, 08:36 PM

Just caught the CBS HD "It's all here" promo on WHIO-DT ... Man, I haven't seen that in a LONG time ...

I thought that would only happen if the local station missed a local ad break, but it looked like it was a national break - at least when I switched over to the analog to check, there was a different promo running for CBS shows ...

Q of BanditZ

09-01-05, 11:09 AM

I'm amazed at the amount of DISH ads I've seen running on my TWC service. Did some law change recently that forced TWC (or anyone else) to allow competitors to air ads like this?

A handful of months ago, you would never see ANYTHING but tons of TWC ads. No competitors whatsoever.

DISH has been VERY aggressive with their "suck" ads here.

And let me say for the record: DISH's ad's do indeed "suck" and don't entice me in the least. Very trashy and smarmy ads that don't tell you an actual thing about the product itself. Couldn't be more useless.

hall

09-01-05, 11:20 AM

If Dish contracts with NBC (or ABC, CBS, etc) or local stations to run an ad, I'm pretty sure that TWC can do NOTHING about it. If you're seeing an increase, it's not because of some policy change at TWC, it's because Dish (or D*) have ramped up their advertising.

osu fan

09-01-05, 12:17 PM

Anyone know if TW is going to carry NBC-HD anytime soon?

Thanks

Q of BanditZ

09-01-05, 12:36 PM

Anyone know if TW is going to carry NBC-HD anytime soon?

Thanks

Or ESPN HD 2?

Honestly, even with concerns about HD-Lite, I won't lie: I'm tempted to jump to DirecTV, for my football wants.

hall

09-01-05, 01:53 PM

Anyone know if TW is going to carry NBC-HD anytime soon? The word from my TWC-WOH contact is this:

1) TWC and WDTN can't come to an agreement

2) TWC-WOH doesn't have "room" (1)

(1) Part of their plan to make room involves simulcasting all of their channels in digital format vs analog.

Nitewatchman

09-01-05, 05:58 PM

Part of their plan to make room involves simulcasting all of their channels in digital format vs analog.[/SIZE]

While I'm not a big fan of multicasting when a station is sending 1080i HD --

Nevertheless, this "argument" on TW's part is utter nonsense IMO. 19.34mb/s data payload rate is what you have in a 6MHZ RF channel via ATSC, doesn't matter how a station chooses to split it up(1 HD like WHIO-DT/WKEF-DT/etc, or 1 HD+1 SD like WDTN-DT).

So, The "capacity" the cableco needs to carry it remains the same regardless of whether a station is using it's entire 19.34mb/s for a single HD stream(+audio+PSIP of course), or 1 HD+1 SD, or 4 SD(like WPTD-DT does during the day) - Or 3 SD+datacasting/etc/etc/etc.

In fact, via QAM (as it needs less Foward Error correction to send signals over a wire than is the case OTA) you can fit that same 19.39Mb/s in 1/2 the bandwith (3 MHZ).

BTW, Right now, FCC rules do not allow a cableco to "downrez"/(reduce the "quality - add more MPEG2 compression/etc) etc. the signal the station sends --not to say it isn't happening "somewhere" as sometimes cableco's can "interpet" FCC rules in interesting ways ....

hall

09-01-05, 06:16 PM

I'm only repeating what one person at TWC told me (there's no room), which was further clarified by my main contact. He has never given me false information before.

Nitewatchman

09-01-05, 06:38 PM

I'm only repeating what one person at TWC told me (there's no room), which was further clarified by my main contact. He has never given me false information before.

And I'm only commenting on their "posistion" on this .... It is not an uncommon one among cablecos given the current sand raising by broadcasters wanting must-carry for multicast streams ...

I wonder if TW complains about carrying all of the PBS SD multicast streams from WPTD-DT? I bet not, since it probably helps them meet their "public interest" obligations .... Seems like they had them all pretty much when WPTD-DT came on the air, even though there were, and still are no "must-carry" for digital(unless the station is digital only, without an analog signal), let alone multiple streams ....

It's almost allways a rocky relationship between broadcasters+cable operators ...

dc10forlife

09-01-05, 09:08 PM

I'm only repeating what one person at TWC told me (there's no room), which was further clarified by my main contact. He has never given me false information before.

Lets assume for a second that this is true. Why then are they adding more PPV, "OnDemand", NBATV, Spanish language channels, and other useless channels that serve a small minority of "Western Ohio" TWC subscribers?

Anyway, TWC already has carried both WB-HD and NBC-HD, as it was accessable on the service menu on my TWC set top box for some time. Bandwidth isn't the issue.

The problem I have with multicast must carry is that stations will then be tempted to offer 15 different shopping subchannels which TWC would be forced to carry, while reducing the picture quality of HD. Weather subchannels with constant ads on the perimeter of the screen is another unfortunate use.

I'm glad TWC carries WCET-HD -- especially now that Soundstage is back on in Dolby 5.1. WCET appears to have slightly better picture quality, perhaps because of the fewer subchannels.

As far as the PBS subchanells, at least it is real content. I'd rather limit it to times of the day when HD isn't on.

jim tressler

09-01-05, 10:24 PM

hello all.. just wanted to say hi -I am in the process of getting a uhf antenna up to pick up the dayton digital stations (as the cincinnati locals are really starting to lose quality) - I am just behind kings island in Hamilton Township - so far so good with a rat shack vu-75 / I am contemplating returning it for Channel Master CM 4221A 4-Bay Bowtie UHF Antenna - any thoughts on that one?

thanks

jim

dusterscott

09-01-05, 10:33 PM

I don't know Jim. Funny you posted this. I just bought the exact same antenna today and I'm very happy with my choice. I also use it for the Dayton channels. I had been using the VU-190-XR for Dayton channels but turned it around on the pole to face the Cincinnati towers. I'm happy to report that the VU-75 picks up all Dayton channels as well as the VU-190 did. I'm very happy with its performance. And as far as Cincinnati goes I'm now picking up 64-1 no problem as well as 54-x out of Kentucky which I didn't receive before. Now I can get rid of that Winegard Sensar that I was using for Cincinnati channels.

UD#1

09-01-05, 11:27 PM

More on TWC Cable Card

I had same experience of TWC trying to install Cable Card into my Sharp Aquos TV. 2 trips from TWC and hours on the phone and could only get analog channels and 707 thru 752?. I could not get HBO channels, Digital Value Tier nor HD Tier. Only above "free" channels. Last cable man gave me a contact at TWC to call and after reaching him, in 5 minutes issue was resolved.
You would think there would be a written procedure for activation of these cards for the office people when they "hit" your cable card during activation.

Below may be of some help. (This is info from Cable Card and not changeable by user. ) Step 4) was the problem area. It did not read "OK"

1) Go to TV's "set up" screen for Cable Card
2) select "SA CableCARD CP Screen"
3) Auth Status: should read "CP Auth Received" This is first step. (Mine did read "CP Auth Received" with each TWC installer but only received above channels. The item below was not activated.)
4) Decryption status: should read "OK" (I believe this read "None Received" before.)
5) Either "EMMCount:" OR "ECM count:" should NOT read 0

So if you are not receiving premium channels on a Cable Card and "Decryption status:" does not read "OK", TWC is probably not "hitting" your card correctly. If you need more help, PM me and I'll give you the TWC contact.

Nitewatchman

09-01-05, 11:54 PM

Jim,

Welcome!

After you get a chance to do a bit more HD viewing of the Dayton stations, let us know what you think of the PQ/etc compared to Cincy ....

Scott,

Good deal ... Glad your getting WSTR-DT 33(remaps to 64.1)+WCVN-DT 24(KET/PBS - remaps to 54.x) now ... You are in a "stronger signal area" than Jim is though, and the U-75R really doesn't have "great" performance on Upper UHF channels. Which is an issue for Dayton stations, but not Cincinnati whose Highest DTV station is on channel 35. Various Signal attenuation factors(such as a lot of trees, long feedline run/terrian shielding/etc) can also be more of an issue on higher UHF channels than is the case on lower channels.

Anyway, I Don't think I've seen either WBDT-DT or WSTR-DT miss any WB HD since both started doing it in Nov 2004, but WSTR-DT's SD upconverts I think are probably among the best in this area. I think HD PQ might be "slightly" sharper/more detailed on WSTR-DT, but not really much difference, if any.

As much as I like HD, I do have to say I also watch a lot of the KET produced stuff that runs on KET1(54.1 digital virtual channel/54 analog).... Probably be a long time, but I'd like to see KY afield, KY Life + "Jubilee" in HD someday, as well as HD transfers of some of the "appalshop" films(OAR of course, even if it's 4x3) they sometimes run. I've seen WPTO and WPTD run some KET stuff occasionally, btw ... Getting a good KET analog signal is why I originally needed to put up a "big honkin'" antenna many, many years ago ... Getting good digital reception is much easier in my case .... TW Cincy does carry it, and I am(barely)Cincy DMA, but Cable does not serve my rural location, not that I really care ;)

KET did do probably one of the earliest HD productions in this area in 1998 -- The "Ryan Interview" with Ashley Judd, which was set in Central KY and ran in "earlier days" on PBS HD - a portion of it also ran on the old PBS HD demo loop(which ran often on PBS HD before PBS created the "PBS HD Channel" in late 03/early 04.

It's also nice to have KET engineer/AVSforum member William Smith on Cincy thread ....

Ok, I'm blabbering ... Allways good to see more folks making use of their OTA options .....

dusterscott

09-02-05, 12:11 AM

Yep, I'm very happy with the OTA selection I'm getting now. I think I'll just keep it like this for a while. As you know I've dropped D* and was considering TWC, but man, $47 a month for only about 10 more channels (that I would watch) currently doesn't seem like money well spent. The money saved will go into my gas tank as I commute 50 miles one way to work.

Q of BanditZ

09-02-05, 09:59 AM

I wish OTA would somehow get me ESPN HD 1 and 2. ;) :(

Nitewatchman

09-02-05, 12:14 PM

I wish OTA would somehow get me ESPN HD 1 and 2. ;) :(

One of the main things I can think of preventing that(on a free-to air basis), or something similiar from happening is probably because there are so many folks willing to pay for subscription TV services via cable or sat, even services that are also advertiser supported(commercials). We used to get many Reds games OTA from Cincinnati/Dayton broadcast stations, now you need to pay for FSN Ohio .....

As they say "whatever the market bears" .... And, certianly it is possiblie you may see ESPN HD available via SUBSCRIPTION based OTA services "someday" ... IF not by existing broadcasters, potentially via "new" folks on some on some of the auctioned off spectrum on what is now TV channels 52~69 ... ... USDTV currently has ESPN via subscription OTA, but it's not HD .....

There is no technical reason why such cablenets can't be offered via Free-to-air TV -- There is of course is only so much spectrum available, and only so many stations/services can be offered in any given area. You couldn't have, for instance, 70 HD Networks via MPEG2 via OTA from any given city -- well, not and still have very good HD PQ via MPEG2 ....

-------------

In any event, In the "real world" :

OTA is a viable option for most folks to receive HD from the broadcast nets, as well as SD services from local broadcasters(in rare cases, HD on local level as well). That goes for folks who use cable/DBS as well, especially when the local cableco's doesn't carry all the stations which are available to you via antenna. While there are some hardware costs involved, it's a one time cost, the programming is available for Free ....... It's a no brainer in most cases, IMO ....

Squigs

09-05-05, 08:05 PM

I finally broke down and bought the a Sony 42A10 LCD RP this weekend with BB's great price. I have basic cable and do not plan on spending the xtra for a box. So, I headed to Radio Shack and bought the Terk indoor antenna. I live 4.5 miles from the antenna's according the the antennaweb site. I could not convince myself to try rabit ears. My dilema is my wife is against the big rook antenna's, so I went the route of an indoor one.

That being said, I could only get one channel this afternoon. It had the US Open on it - I was not blown away - it was nice, but just not perfect. I then figured out I had to plug the antenna in - well, I got all the channels now. PBS HD is what I expected HD to look like. It is awesome. I do have a couple of questions:

1. Is it work keeping the Terk or is there something else that would yield better indoor results. My wife is finicky with this thing in the family room, although it is hardly noticable.

2. Does hanging a big antenna in the attic actually work? Since it cannot move around, do you have trouble tuning channels?

3. How do you know you are truly watching HD. Tonight I watched a couple minutes of Millionaire and it looked bad - better than regular cable, but not great.

4. Can you tune in HD channels to get a better picture, or is the picture locked in once you are locked into the channel?

Thanks for the help!

hall

09-05-05, 08:24 PM

PBS HD is often hit or miss. Many of the shows shown on their HD channel are *not* in fact HD programs, but upconverted SD programs.

I don't think you've tuned in a true HD channel showing true HD programming yet. You'll truly be blown away .... there's no mistaking what's SD and what's HD.

As for what you're watching, the HD broadcasts are a completely different channel. WHIO has channel "7", which is SD, and channel 41.1, which is WHIO-DT and is their digital channel, where HD programming is shown.

Nitewatchman

09-05-05, 08:44 PM

Squigs,

Yes attic antennas can work. All you need is UHF for Dayton digital stations, a good UHF antenna of conventional design (such as CM4221, or Radio shacks UHF only Yagi) might be a good bet. I don't know which terk antenna you have, but they are generally not held in high regard. Zenith "Silver Sensor" or Radio Shack's Double Bow tie are about the best "indoor" type antenna out there. Outdoors is better, but since you are only 4.5 miles away, and all the stations broadcast from the same antenna farm, you should have a good shot at getting good reception from indoors.

Remember, even though all of the Dayton digital stations provide HD "when available", all programming is not available in HD, that which isn't is upconverted SD via stations HD services(subchannels). Digital OTA TV (DTV) can be purely "SD" as well, such as WPTD-DT's SD subchannels, 16-2~16-5 remapped.

Ahtough Hall is correct that WHIO-DT actually transmits on UHF channel 41, most(almost all really) receivers will remap the DTV (HD) station so it shows up as 7.1 so it "appears" to be right next to their analog station 7.

All digital channels will have a minor channel number, such as 7.1, 2.1, 16.6 for PBS HD channel(the latter which is only active 6pm~6am nightly), analog stations will not. While Hall is also correct that much of the programming on PBS HD channel is 480i SD widescreen programming which is upconverted to 1080i at network level(even though PBS HD logo is still often on the screen), nevertheless, this still provides better PQ, and is 16x9 AR and therefore provides higher resolution than "letterboxed" SD.

Concerning WHIO-DT and U.S. open HD earlier today I didn't check to see if they managed to switch to CBS's HD feed this afternoon for the U.S. Open HD, but it was HD from them yesterday.

jim tressler

09-05-05, 08:55 PM

wow.. wkef in hd is fantastic compared to the crap wcpo in cincinnati spews out!!

CBS had tennis in HD all day - some matches that are not in ash stadium do not have hd cameras - so what you probably saw was a match on a "SD" court

jim

s1059197

09-07-05, 08:35 AM

It appears that ABC has reversed course and will now show the OSU/Texas game in HD this Saturday. (Go to http://abc.go.com/ and scroll to the bottom.)

Phil

Q of BanditZ

09-07-05, 11:50 AM

It appears that ABC has reversed course and will now show the OSU/Texas game in HD this Saturday. (Go to http://abc.go.com/ and scroll to the bottom.)

Phil

I should hope so! Let's see:

1.) Game of the Week (at least!)

2.) National championship implications up the wazoo.

3.) First time meeting EVER AND both are top 5 teams.

4.) Hot new star in the form of Texas' new QB that everyone wants to see.

and so on...

I can't believe ABC had even a moment's hesitation on something like this!

hall

09-07-05, 12:44 PM

That being said, I could only get one channel this afternoon. It had the US Open on it - I was not blown away - it was nice, but just not perfect.

3. How do you know you are truly watching HD. Tonight I watched a couple minutes of Millionaire and it looked bad - better than regular cable, but not great.

4. Can you tune in HD channels to get a better picture, or is the picture locked in once you are locked into the channel? Squigs, how 'bout an update ?? I'm curious if you figured things out or not.

Q of BanditZ

09-07-05, 02:05 PM

s1059197

09-07-05, 03:24 PM

All Ohio football fans (for starters): You all need to make some noise NOW. Rumor is circulating with concerns that OSU vs. Texas will NOT be broadcast by ABC in HD. It's truly a blunder beyond words if that comes to pass.

That had been their plans up until this week, but I just read yesterday that they had changed their mind and decided to go HD for the game. The ABC site was updated to reflect that, and it's still showing that way as of this minute. Have you heard some new information? If not, you may have been catching the uproar that preceeded ABC's change of heart. I'm anxious to hear what you know, because I may need to cancel an OSU-HD party because of it...

Phil

s1059197

09-07-05, 04:11 PM

Question for 1450khz, Nitewatchman, and anyone else getting WBNS-DT from Columbus: what kind of antenna setup is required for reaching that station from Dayton? WHIO just eased restrictions on their ability to show Browns games, and I would love to be able to pull them in over an antenna and forget about switching to NFL Sunday Ticket. I'm currently getting my locals over TWC, but I'd be willing to put up an antenna if it meant getting all the Browns games at home. Antennaweb.org tells me that I'm 63 miles from their transmitter (analog, at least--it didn't list their digital station for me). Antennaweb also tells me that I would need a large, directional antenna with pre-amp. I'm assuming that I'd need to mount that antenna outside at roof height. Does that sound reasonable? Based on your experience, would that provide solid, reliable reception of WBNS-DT? What has worked for you?

Thanks,
Phil

Nitewatchman

09-07-05, 04:41 PM

Phil,

I don't receive WBNS-DT all the time from 78 miles distant, and down in a small valley. I need a bit of "enhanced" signal propagation(such as via tropo), to see them which happens occasionally. When it does happen, it's more common in Evening/late night+early morning hours. I did have them in solid last night and this morning.

From Oakwood, you'd probably have a shot at it though(no guarentees) - especially with antenna outside as high as you can get it, and with a high gain UHF antenna with excellent directivity and with mast mount preamp -- such as Antennasdirect XG91 or CM4228.

Add a rotor(or "manual" antenna rotation), and you should have no problems picking up Cincinnati stations as well(Cincinnati should work with "less antenna" than the above - A mid sized VHF/UHF combo would probably work for you for Cincy).

If you do use a preamp(which is probably going to pretty much be a necessity for you for Columbus, and a good idea for Cincinnati), aiming antenna at Dayton towers with the preamp might swamp the preamp 0r your tuner with too much signal, (You MIGHT be OK though, you'll just have to try it), in which case a 2nd, lower gain antenna, used with seperate feedlines+(A/B switch to switch between you antenna setups) such as CM4221 4 bay bowtie would be a good idea for Dayton - You might be able to put the Dayton antenna in the attic/indoors and get good results.

You'll also need a good Hi-VHF antenna(such as winegard YA-1713) for reception of WSYX-DT 13(ABC HD) Columbus, or WCPO-DT 10 Cincinnati. WKRC-DT 31(CBS HD) Cincinnati has filed with FCC to move back to VHF 12 after analog shut off.

A CM7777 preamp would be a good choice for the "Columbus"/or "Cincy" antenna(on rotor/etc) as it has seperate VHF/UHF inputs, for seperate VHF/UHF antennas.

By the way, here is WBNS-DT's "predicted" coverage area map from FCC site note - just because you are slightly outside of it doesn't mean reception isn't possible, It MIGHT mean that, though .For instance, if there is "significant" nearby terrain issue at your location in signal paths towards Columbus it might be impossible. But, it is often possible to receive stations from a bit beyond their expected coverage area, and generally it just means you'll likely need a very good antenna setup to have a shot at it ...

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT617732.html

Oh -- In case we "lost" 1450khz(haven't seen him post here in a while) ... From a few miles East of Fairborn, he's a little closer to them than you are, but good news is I believe he was getting generally decent results from the Columbus UHF DT's with a "stacked" array of 2 CM4221's in his attic along with a CM7777 preamp.