I didn't realize, and don't think, that the networks are affected by the FCC's analog cutoff.

Just curious, who won't watch the game if it's not in HD ?? It's just TV.....

Let me restate the question:

Whoever own an HD...who isn't going to want to watch this game, or any other, in HD if the choice is actually made available?

Football has been selling HDTV's outright since day one, practically. ;)

I didn't realize, and don't think, that the networks are affected by the FCC's analog cutoff.

Just curious, who won't watch the game if it's not in HD ?? It's just TV.....

I believe the networks are affected only as far as the network affiliates they own.

Just curious, who won't watch the game if it's not in HD ?? It's just TV.....

Gee, I wish you would have articulated that before I dropped $2500 on one of these stupid HD things. I could have just kept the old Sony 27" console with the burned-up phosphors.

Hey, I've got one of those "stupid HD things" myself. :D My point is, if I'm planning to watch something, yeah, it's nice if it's in HD, but I won't not watch it if it's not. Yes, people should call the local stations (it's not their problem but ideally they'll pass the complaints up the ladder) or call and/or write the networks to show that people really want HD but life goes on in the meantime....

Squigs, how 'bout an update ?? I'm curious if you figured things out or not.

Hall - thanks for asking.

I have figured a few things out. I realize that it is an all or nothing when tuning into Digital Stations. I still can't tell sometimes if it is high def or not. A lot of stations in the evenings switch to 16:9 - but some of the shows don't blow me away. I still think that the PBS HD station looks the best (in the evening) and the Florida / Miami game Monday night was great.

I am still pondering getting a larger antenna. The Terk picks up everything as long as I have the booster box plugged in. The side of my house faces the towers. I have though about hanging something in the attic, but am a little weary whether this is worth it over the Terk. I thought about getting the Silver Something that was recommended to save 15 bucks, but I was not sure if it would work without being plugged in - the terk won't. I would like to try and get Cincy, but my wife is pretty addimate about not having something roof. My guess is you need to point the antenna south when you want to see those stations. (anyone know if getting columbus gives you sports broadcasts from Cleveland teams?)

Is there a local company that will install an antenna on your chimney?

My only other problem is I think I see SDE on my LCD. I have one of the new Sony 42A10 TV's. It is a great little TV. I just expected that HDTV experience to have a sharper picture. I am reading the thread for the TV on this site as well.

Just read the title of this thread. That should underscore for you how senseless this truly is and stick in your craw a little bit.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=578509

A trashy game like that gets HD tonight but we can't see two top five teams go at it in HD on ABC, ESPN, or ANYWHERE else come Saturday night?

Ridiculous. Senseless.

I agree.

NFL game on ABC looks great tonight as usual.

NFL game on ABC looks great tonight as usual.


VERY much so! WOW!

I still can't tell sometimes if it is high def or not. A lot of stations in the evenings switch to 16:9 - but some of the shows don't blow me away. I still think that the PBS HD station looks the best (in the evening) and the Florida / Miami game Monday night was great.


HD PQ varies, it won't look all "the same". There is "soft" looking HD, eye popping, crystal clear HD/etc. "Artistic license" applies to HD just as it does to SD. Also There are excellent HD transfers from film, as well as not so good HD transfers from Film. Film is higher rez than HD, therefore it can be transferred to HD - some of the best, eye popping HD PQ I've seen in fact has been HD transferred from film) ....

However, If you compare the HD version to the SD version(such as from analog broadcast station - assuming good "reception"), you should see the difference ... Also, looking closely at details in the background will often let you know what is HD ....

HD PQ also varies among different displays for various reasons - such as display technology, DSP, calibration issues/etc/etc/.

BTW, The widescreen upconverts on PBS HD channel, and a few 16x9 Fox shows such as "Fox News Sunday", as well as sometimes SD (sometimes 4x3, sometimes 16x9) wireless cams during sports events are about the ONLY 16x9 you'll see on local stations' 720p or 1080i "HD subchannels" (unless it has "black bars" all the way around on a 16x9 display) which isn't HD. You'll usually see a "presented in HD", "available in HD"/etc. banner at beginning of show when it is HD -- same goes for PBS HD channel, If it says at beginning of show "The following is HD presentation" then it's HD .... If it says "The following is a widescreen presentation", then it's SD, upconverted to HD at network level ...


The Terk picks up everything as long as I have the booster box plugged in.


If you are getting reliable, dropout free reception up all 6 Dayton Digital/HD stations(with HD from ABC, CBS, NBC, FOX, PBS+WB), then you have nothing to worry about. However, "amplfied" antennas are not generally a good idea if you are so close to the towers as 4~5 miles as having TOO MUCH signal can overload the amp and cause problems .... This would be especially true for outdoor antenna, but could be an issue indoors from that close as well -- Having antenna indoors does attenuate signals a LOT(about -20db as general rule of thumb) and multipath is usually more of a problem indoors as well - usually, a good place for indoor antenna is near a window(some types of insulated window glass can cause issues with multipath especially however) that faces towers, as windows typically attenuate signals less than other typical home construction materials ....


I thought about getting the Silver Something that was recommended to save 15 bucks, but I was not sure if it would work without being plugged in - the terk won't.


Unplugging power from an amplfied antenna attenuates signals a LOT more than if you were using a non-amplfied antenna such as Silver sensor. Short explanation -- if the circutry in the amp isn't powered, It "blocks" a lot of the signal the antenna is getting.


I would like to try and get Cincy, but my wife is pretty addimate about not having something roof. My guess is you need to point the antenna south when you want to see those stations. (anyone know if getting columbus gives you sports broadcasts from Cleveland teams?)


As mentioned earlier, WBNS Columbus sometimes carries Browns games when Dayton or Cincy stations don't. You'll sometimes get a Bengals Home game or two from WTTE-DT Fox Columbus. WRCX-LP 40, Dayton low power analog station carries Cavilier games, as does WSTR Cincinnati.

IF you are only 4 miles from Dayton towers though, that's probably going to put you out of range(for most part) for Columbus. Being only 4 miles away from Dayton towers, a preamp probably especially wouldn't be a good idea for outdoor antenna, either(you're preamp will likely get swamped by the strong Dayton signals, even though it would otherwise be a good idea for Cincinnati or Columbus). Unless you are in a low spot and have a nearby hill towards the South, Cincinnati stations should be fairly easy to receive - you'll need VHF+UHF for all Cincinnati(or Columbus) digital stations, only UHF antenna For Dayton. You'll probably want a rotor so you can aim antenna either towards Dayton or Cincinnati, or you could use seperate Dayton/Cincinnati antennas on seperate feedlines with A/B switch near receiver to switch to one antenna or the other.


Is there a local company that will install an antenna on your chimney?


I hope so ... There should be, but I don't know who they are, nor have we gotten any good reports on this thread on good OTA antenna installers in the Dayton area. So, if you find one(you'll probably have to go to phone book/etc), let us know how it goes.

freezes/glitches still running rampant on wkef-hd during football.

I guess it'll be another season of glitchy abc programming from our wonderful sinclair affiliate.

I didn't have any freezes or glitches at all last night. It was a beautiful picture here OTA.

I noticed last night at the beginning of the MNF broadcast that one of their graphics said that the game was available in "Digital 5.1 sound." However, my receiver only identified 2.0 digital sound. I pass the sound directly from the TV to my receiver via fiber optic, so it's not being converted in any way. For other ABC shows like Lost, I get true 5.1 sound. Did anybody else get 5.1 sound for MNF last night? I'm wondering if TWC altered the signal in some way.

Phil

I noticed last night at the beginning of the MNF broadcast that one of their graphics said that the game was available in "Digital 5.1 sound." However, my receiver only identified 2.0 digital sound. I pass the sound directly from the TV to my receiver via fiber optic, so it's not being converted in any way. For other ABC shows like Lost, I get true 5.1 sound. Did anybody else get 5.1 sound for MNF last night? I'm wondering if TWC altered the signal in some way.

I've never got DD5.1 from WKEF.

As far as the game itself, I noticed a number of the video freezes over TWC.

I wasn't getting sound in DD 5.1 last night either so that wasn't TWC's fault. I don't recall if WKEF can broadcast in 5.1 or not.

OTA no problems last night.. at least wkef doesnt have the wcpo jaggie problem :)

freezes/glitches still running rampant on wkef-hd during football.

I guess it'll be another season of glitchy abc programming from our wonderful sinclair affiliate.

WKEF-DT does not have capability to send DD 5.1 yet.

Video freezes are there OTA from WKEF-DT as well, but perhaps it's not effecting all chipsets/decoders, I don't know. They are affecting all of my receivers. They occur(only during ABC HD) on average about 1~2 times per hour(there are hours they don't happen at all, and hours you'll see them more often). It's been happening for over 2 years now, including during NBC HD back when they were NBC HD affiliate, prior to 9/1/04. It did not ever occur for the first 9 months or so they were on the air with NBC HD, from Feb 2002 to sometime in 2003.

I only noticed one last night, in early part of game, but I didn't watch much of it either. I did notice that the internal ATSC decoder in Sony KD-34XBR960 seemed to handle it a little differently than my other receivers ... Audio continued as has been the case with other receivers, but the video never "dropped to black" during the ~5 seconds of the freeze, it just "froze" for 5 seconds ...

Search this thread for "freezes" or "video freezes" for more info.

For other ABC shows like Lost, I get true 5.1 sound. WKEF-DT does not have capability to send DD 5.1 yet. So which is it ?? :D I knew one, or more, of the local stations didn't have DD5.1 capabilities yet.

WKEF-DT does not have capability to send DD 5.1 yet.

Really? My receiver thinks it's getting 5.1 during "Lost."

Phil

I've never seen(or "heard") them do DD 5.1, but I haven't checked HD "Lost" lately.

UPdate #1: From Dayton, I get DD 5.1 "when available" from WDTN-DT(NBC HD), WHIO-DT(CBS HD), WBDT-DT(WB HD), and WRGT-DT(Fox HD). WPTD-DT(PBS HD) had DD 5.1 for ONE HD soundstage in Summer 2003, one of their engineers posted about their DD 5.1 Test at that time. That's the only time I've seen DD 5.1 from WPTD-DT.

WDTN-DT also had DD 5.1(when available) for ABC HD programming when they were Dayton ABC beginning soon after they came on air in 2003. They did have some lip sync issues at first, which seems to be the case with nearly every ABC affiliate when they first start doing DD 5.1. BTW, The way the Fox "splicer" system works(the stream isn't decoded at local affiliate, it's encoded at network level and isn't decoded until it reaches the viewer's decoder), Fox digital affiliates don't actually need DD 5.1 capability at the station in order to pass through DD 5.1 from Fox, this isn't the case for ABC, CBS+NBC affiliates currently which need to de-code the Net HD feed(and audio) at the station and then re-encode it on local level.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

WKEF/WRGT Chief Engineer told me early may 05 that they had planned to have DD 5.1 capability on WKEF-DT within a couple of weeks, but I assumed they ran into problems as I've still yet to get any DD 5.1 from them when I've checked it.

Via email, I had asked one of their(WKEF/WRGT) engineers for a DD 5.1 ETA/update a few weeks ago, but didn't get a response. He did respond to that email, however, concerning a PSIP issue I had also brought up that effected WRGT-DT for a couple of days back about 3 weeks ago. He had said they had to reboot the MUX(multiplexer) to fix it(the PSIP issue - there wasn't any PSIP for a day or two) ... He had also mentioned that they are VERY BUSY currently. I sent another reply back asking about DD 5.1 ETA for WKEF-DT again, but haven't received a reply to it as of yet.

Update #2: Also should probably mention that a Sinclair Engineer in Columbus had also told me in Early May that they were planning on DD 5.1 from WKEF-DT in a couple of weeks, but, he also said he expected that getting DD 5.1 right was going to be harder for them then getting video "Right" ... He also said he was going to contact me when they get DD 5.1 from WKEF-DT up and running to ask for my feedback should there be any problems. I haven't heard back from him.

Hey guys,
Here in Va I did noticed a couple of moments of pixelation during the game. Also say a few delay from hd to sd. I just chack it up to the first game of the year and the network sports team being rusty. I know it was not on my end because there is a difference from a network issue and my reciever and or antenna. I will say ABC MNF looks fantastic. I hope NBC
does a as good a job next year on Sunday night. Hopefully better then the Olympics. Hd on
the Olympics looked washed out to me.

WKEF does not pass 5.1 - most receivers will show a blue light or indicate DD on the receiver when 5.1 is coming in. I can tell you for certain that we aren't getting 5.1. I suspect your receiver is upconverting to prologic matrixed surround or upconverting to 5.1 somehow(if you're seeing the light).

See my post on the previous page..that's why i urged you guys to drop a line to "mr.dtv", the head honcho of sinclair....The more email they receive regarding a particular issue, the more likely they are to take action on it. One guy emailing them isn't going to cut it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6101641&&#post6101641

Jeff and I emailed them about a previous issue, and they made sure our local affiliate knew about it AND responded to us.

Just noticed WHIO-DT has added the SD multicast subchannel again ... perhaps only temporarily.

I ran across this article a couple weeks back : http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=3217

Basically the article says CBS is sending the John Roberts Confimation hearings for air on it's "digital stations" while preempting "some" CBS HD programming. Well, Y&R is SD from both WHIO-DT(7.1) and WKRC-DT, today+Yesterday. WKRC-DT isn't running the hearings, it's still just their SD radar on SD subchannel 12.2.

digital cam Screenshot of what 7.2 currently looks like attached below.

Update 8pm - Noticed WHIO-DT dropped the SD subchannel completely(including PSIP) after the hearings were over today.

To anyone who's gotten the "Rakesh S" package from TW, how many of you have the HD-DVR ?? I called TWC today about lowering my bill and am even considering their "limited" package (ch 2-25) + the HD box (will get me channels 707-756) and maybe even the HD Tier. I do NEED to keep the DVR though and the price -- $31 + tax -- seemed out of line when I asked for that:

$9.14 (limited)
$17.90 (8.95 digital set-top box + 8.95 dvr fee)

Oh wait, I remember, you HAVE to get the "navigator" (on-screen program guide), which is another $4-5/month. It would be real important to have with a DVR.

Anyway, is this around what others are paying ?? Are most of you getting channels 2-78 instead ?? I'd hate losing Discovery, TLC, etc plus the kids would have losing channels like Nick and so on.

I don't have the DVR. However, I did notice last night that I am no longer getting the non-local HD channels (DiscoveryHD-ESPNHD), which makes me think that my CableCARD needs another hit. Not looking forward to the crapshoot that that call is likely to be. I'm assuming that no one else has suddenly seen those go away in the last day or two?

Phil

Anyone notice the Target commercial in HD on CBS tonight? Pretty cool - commercials in HD.

Noticed WDTN-DT missed HD feed tonight for "The West Wing" .... It was HD via WLWT-DT Cincinnati .... That's pretty rare for them, they did pass through HD for the Notre Dame Game Yesterday ....

Getting maybe more than average amount of video freezes during HD "Pearl Harbor" tonight from WKEF-DT, but, even though it isn't OAR, it surely looks quite outstanding on my XBR960 from about 5 feet away... As does HD "The Two Towers" WB HD from WBDT-DT/WSTR-DT - With DD 5.1 for the latter ....

-------------------------------------------------------------

Update: Oh, BTW :

Looks like WKOI-DT 39 (43.1) TBN has apparently "powered up" - At least currently. Just thought I'd mention it if any OTA folks notice a TBN digital popping up on their next channel scan, that's what it is.

WKOI's Community of License is Richmond, IN, however their Tower is some 30+ Miles SSE of Richmond, and is located between Oxford+Trenton, Ohio. I posted about this in Cincinnati thread as well(as their transmitter is actually as close to Cincy as it is Dayton), although I *think* they are actually considered to be in Dayton Market.

Currently they are only running a single program service/SD subchannel - simulcast of analog WKOI 43 shows up via PSIP as 43.1, or as 39.3 with no PSIP+MPEG program number.

But, I noticed one of my receivers here also "somewhat" picked up some MPEG2 program stream numbers from them for 6 subchannels, total. They don't actually "show up" anywhere except under channel 39 on a screen that lets you select which channels/subchannels to hide for "channel surfing" purposes. They aren't there on the list for PSIP remapped channel 43.1, only 43.1 is present there. I know TBN is multicasting several different services on several of their digital affiliates(Such as WDLI-DT 39 Canton, OH), wouldn't be surprised if we see multicasting from WKOI-DT sometime soon as well.

I noticed that WOXY radio (which moved their antenna to the WKOI-TV tower a few months back) was off the air last Friday. That would seem to support the theory of WKOI going full power, since the radio station probably had to shut down if there were workers on the tower doing antenna work for WKOI.

Looks like WKOI-DT 39 (43.1) TBN has apparently "powered up" - At least currently. Just thought I'd mention it if any OTA folks notice a TBN digital popping up on their next channel scan, that's what it is.


Ah ha! I wondered where that 39 came from! Thanks for the info

Lost starts tonight..and you guessed it, no 5.1. Wonderful.

I noticed that WOXY radio (which moved their antenna to the WKOI-TV tower a few months back) was off the air last Friday. That would seem to support the theory of WKOI going full power, since the radio station probably had to shut down if there were workers on the tower doing antenna work for WKOI.

It's "official" --- They're at full power as WKOI filed a license to cover app with FCC yesterday for WKOI-DT's full power construction permit, FCC File number BLCDT20050920ABV, "accepted for filing" By the commission today.

Here is link to the app :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101085930&formid=2&fac_num=67869

More info on their antenna pattern/etc. can be found under the "Modification of Construction permit" entry here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WKOI&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9


---------------------------

Update: Found an announcement concerning WKOI-DT at TBN site as well - It also mentions WKOI is also "nearing completion" of capability to transmit 4 multicast(SD) services :

http://www.tbn.org/index.php/7/52.html

Coverage map :

http://www.tbn.org/announcements/images/WKOI-DT.pdf

More info on TBN digital :

http://www.tbn.org/index.php/7/21.html

------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyone one else with problems receiving OTA from the ABC HD channel (22)? Over the past 3 days, there is a recurrent pause in the sound approximately every 10 seconds. It's so annoying and so bad that I didn't watch MNF and Lost (tonight). I have a Hitachi 57S700, btw. I've never had problems with this channel before.

I'm seeing the problem on Lost...It sucks -- almost makes the show unwatchable.

It was not present during MNF.

Shouldn't be surprised I guess..It is WKEF after all.

I'm seeing the problem on Lost...It sucks -- almost makes the show unwatchable.

It was not present during MNF.

Shouldn't be surprised I guess..It is WKEF after all.

Well...I'm not watching tonight. I'm hoping the station will have it fixed by the time they show the "encore presentation". Those gaps in the sound really annoy me!!! :mad:

well what can i say that hasn't been said already

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6101641&&#post6101641

That can be used for other issues also(since wkef doesn't read this thread or respond to email via the form on their site) and as usual, it'll take at least two people contacting them to get their attention.

The audio isn't dropping out now, but it seems out of sync..just like last year.

First time I've ever noticed those "audio drops", tonight. It's certianly not happening every 10 seconds on Zenith HDV420 here however -- For the most part I was getting very short drops(perhaps a few 10's of ms or so), and I noticed maybe 15 of them between 10pm+10:15pm.

Another fellow in Cincinnati thread with a Hitatchi set is reporting getting the audio drops from WKEF-DT every 7 seconds.

I also Noticed here tonight that the audio/video sync was slightly off at times during "Lost" and "invasion" as well.


since wkef doesn't read this thread

Are you absolutely SURE about that?

It's been a while but their engineers have told me several times they monitor this thread when they can do so, especially when they make equipment changes/etc. If you go back far enough, you will even find some posts from not only WKEF chief engineer, but also posts from "Mr DTV" himself.

You can try the MrDTV address, but Probably the best way to have any luck at contacting the station+reporting the issues you are having is to call their switchboard during normal business hours and ask for engineering.


it'll take at least two people contacting them to get their attention.


Absolutely, if you are having problems you know aren't on your end, contact the station(or Mr. DTV in this case) and tell them about it.

Are you absolutely SURE about that?

It's been a while but their engineers have told me several times they monitor this thread when they can do so, especially when they make equipment changes/etc. If you go back far enough, you will even find some posts from not only WKEF chief engineer, but also posts from "Mr DTV" himself.

You can try the MrDTV address, but Probably the best way to have any luck at contacting the station+reporting the issues you are having is to call their switchboard during normal business hours and ask for engineering.

I'd like to think that they would make some sort of attempt to address the issues brought up in this thread, if in fact they do read this thread. If they do read it and don't care, what's the big deal?

The video freezes are still running wild. I had a couple during lost and a couple during invasion. The audio dropouts made the shows unwatchable, pretty much, and abc isn't encoring either show, to the best of my knowledge.

edit - the first two eps of invasion will be encored NEXT saturday.

Anyone one else with problems receiving OTA from the ABC HD channel (22)?
namx,

I have been experiencing audio dropouts on WKEF since Monday (MNF). They occur every seven seconds (I've timed them with a stopwatch), and only last for a fraction of a second (enough to cut off a word). I'm not experiencing any video dropouts. My TV is a Hitachi 42HDT51. These dropouts don't occur on any other channel.

I only put up an antenna capable of receiving WKEF on Sunday, but I'm pretty sure that the audio dropouts on WKEF weren't occuring on Sunday.

CincyKev

namx,

I have been experiencing audio dropouts on WKEF since Monday (MNF). They occur every seven seconds (I've timed them with a stopwatch), and only last for a fraction of a second (enough to cut off a word). I'm not experiencing any video dropouts. My TV is a Hitachi 42HDT51. These dropouts don't occur on any other channel.

I only put up an antenna capable of receiving WKEF on Sunday, but I'm pretty sure that the audio dropouts on WKEF weren't occuring on Sunday.

CincyKev

Thanks for replying to this thread so I don't feel like it is just me. I didn't time the audio dropouts with a stopwatch but I am sure the problem is the same as yours. I just estimate it to be every ten seconds; or, more probably, every seven seconds as you mentioned. I didn't watch any TV on Sunday so the problem very well could have started on Sunday, or earlier. It's not your new antenna. This really sucks because I wanted to watch LOST and INVASION. Let's hope somebody from WKEF is reading this so they can RESPOND and FIX this problem.

Regards.

I didn't notice any regular audio drops during Lost last night (I'm getting mine through TWC, not OTA). I did have the lip sync and video freeze problems, though.

Oh, and remember how I said awhile back that I had gotten 5.1 sound during Lost? I must have been smoking something, because it was 2.0 last night. Sorry.

Phil

I watched WKEF Monday night and didn't have any audio or video dropouts, although I only watched until the end of the 3rd quarter of the game. I haven't checked since then but will check tonight when I get home.

I'd like to think that they would make some sort of attempt to address the issues brought up in this thread, if in fact they do read this thread. If they do read it and don't care, what's the big deal?


I don't know if they are currenlty monitoring this thread or not. But Just because they don't(or can't) get it fixed doesn't necessarily mean they don't "care". The video freezes have been occuring with them for well over two years now(even with NBC HD prior to when they switched to ABC 9/04) a number of us have contacted them about it and talked to them about it, and evidently the video freezes nor this new problem with the audio isn't effecting ALL of the hardware users have.

The last time I talked to them they said they were monitoring the signal and weren't seeing the video freezes. It's a little hard to "fix" something if you can't see the problem. The only way they are going to know about it is if people CONTACT them and tell them what they're getting and what hardware they are using. And yes, it might take more than one or two folks.

My main "suspicion" I would have would be that they are having some sort of issue with their encoding which oddly is only effecting certian decoders. But, what is strange is that this(video freezes, nor the new audio dropouts - at least since I've checked it last night+this morning) NEVER happens(at least here) during local/syndicated programming, or ABC SD feeds.


The video freezes are still running wild. I had a couple during lost and a couple during invasion. The audio dropouts made the shows unwatchable, pretty much, and abc isn't encoring either show, to the best of my knowledge.


I had 4 or 5 video freezes during first 25 minutes of "Invasion" last night - worse than usual. There were more of an issue for me than the audio. The audio dropouts as I was experiencing with Zenith HDV420 weren't for the most part bothering me so much, as even though I noticed about 15 of them, they were very short(again a few ms - For instance, if someone said the word "good", and the dropout occured during the "d", I'd still hear 80% of the "da" in "d". If that makes sense. - If I hadn't been paying much attention, I wouldn't have even noticed them.

I get the Video Freezes from WKEF-DT(how it exactly occurs differs a little) on all my receivers, but I'll have to check other receivers when I get a chance to see if the audio drops are a problem. I do know I didn't notice any of those Monday night on Sony HDTV with internal ATSC receiver.


Let's hope somebody from WKEF is reading this so they can RESPOND and FIX this problem.


It's Probably best to contact them and tell them what equipment you are using and exactly what you are getting.

The last time I talked to them they said they were monitoring the signal and weren't seeing the video freezes. It's a little hard to "fix" something if you can't see the problem. The only way they are going to know about it is if people CONTACT them and tell them what they're getting and what hardware they are using. And yes, it might take more than one or two folks.

Well, being that everyone in Dayton who uses Time Warner Cable's HD boxes see's it (and this has been pointed out here over and over) there should not be a problem knowing where to turn 1st. WKEF has to have at least 1 employee who has a TWC HD box. Therefore I don't buy any excuse that says WKEF needs people to let them know. They are dragging their feet on this issue, from all indications I have seen. I have also sent them multiple emails, with the hardware I was using to watch their DT signal (3 different types of TWC boxes, all have the same video dropout issue). No other stations in Dayton have this problem, including WRGT.

Well, being that everyone in Dayton who uses Time Warner Cable's HD boxes see's it (and this has been pointed out here over and over) there should not be a problem knowing where to turn 1st.


There have been folks who have reported NOT experiening the issue with their equipment. TW uses fewer "different" decoders than what is available for OTA(or QAM via cable).

We know, and as you say have demonstrated here in the past the problem is at WKEF's end, which is why folks need to contact them about it. They are USED to the phone lines lighting up when the analog station has problems. If you want to have a good shot at getting through to them, using the feedback forum on their website is likely not the way. CALL them.


WKEF has to have at least 1 employee who has a TWC HD box.


Don't count on it. I know of very few station employees around here that have a HD set at home or watch their digital stations at home -- either via OTA or TW. last I talked to them, they don't have one they are using for their DT signal at WKEF either -- they said an OTA DTV receiver is connected to a SD monitor for Off air mo nitoring. One guy at WBDT who uses OTA HD is the only one I know of in Cincinnati or Dayton.


Therefore I don't buy any excuse that says WKEF needs people to let them know.


Ok, then DON'T contact them and see if it does any good ..... ????

Don't count on it. I know of very few station employees around here that have a HD set at home or watch their digital stations at home -- either via OTA or TW. last I talked to them, they don't have one they are using for their DT signal at WKEF either -- they said an OTA DTV receiver is connected to a SD monitor for Off air mo nitoring. One guy at WBDT who uses OTA HD is the only one I know of in Cincinnati or Dayton.

I know of at least 1 employee at WHIO who has Time Warner Cable HDTV. From what I was told, she was one of the people who kept letting them know about the bandwidth starvation due to their subchannel. She is not an engineer (or anything of the sort, just a regular employee), but she made sure she let them know.

And, I still find it hard to believe that a station (in this case 2) that employs probably close to 60-70 people doesn't have 1 employee who has HDTV. Isn't the national trend at 5-10% currently? Statistically WKEF/WRGT should employ 3-7 people with HDTV's in their household. I also doubt they all use OTA tuners for their HDTV.


Ok, then DON'T contact them and see if it does any good ..... ????

That was not my point... I will continue to contact them, along with at least 2 others on this forum I know personally. Based on their past history, however, WKEF will not do a thing about the issue. They are dragging their feet. I have yet to see them fix any problems in the year+ that I have been living back in Dayton (PSIP does not count, I'm talking about PQ/encoding problems).

WHIO fixed their issues and have a fantastic signal now. I don't have WDTN-DT (no OTA receiver), but from what I have read on here they appear to have a good signal. WRGT is fine because they don't do anything with it, they just rebroadcast the Fox signal. WKEF, however, has known about this issue since early last year (when they changed to ABC) because I emailed them about it early in the Monday Night Football season.

In my opinion, mlbUC is right. The fact of the matter is that they know and have known about this issue for quite some time and have done nothing about that has had any positive result. We could argue all day about whether they "care" about it and what that means. Unfortunately for us, whether this problems persists or not does not affect their bottom line and that is why it is not high on the priority list.

She is not an engineer (or anything of the sort, just a regular employee), but she made sure she let them know.


Good for her. I began contacting them about it in Fall of 2001, they didn't drop their SD subchannel until Earlier this year - well, until last week when they brought it back(temporarily) during the day for the roberts confirmation hearings.


And, I still find it hard to believe that a station (in this case 2) that employs probably close to 60-70 people doesn't have 1 employee who has HDTV. Isn't the national trend at 5-10% currently? Statistically WKEF/WRGT should employ 3-7 people with HDTV's in their household. I also doubt they all use OTA tuners for their HDTV.


I don't know if any of the WKEF/WRGT employees are watching HD or not(I know their engineers weren't the last time I talked to them), whether it's via OTA or TW doesn't matter, whether or not TW uses OTA or fiber to get the signal from the station doesn't matter, It all comes out of the same encoder at WKEF. If there are dropouts due to OTA reception issues, BOTH the video+audio streams are effected simultanousely, besides, the video freezes never occured on their SD subchannel OTA for me(even when they were occuring during HD on the HD sub).

In any event, I guess I don't really see the point you are trying to make in this case. The problem is occuring, whether or not any WKEF/WRGT employees are watching their digital station and reporting it to their engineers. The problem is occuring whether or not they are either just "dragging their feet", or they don't know about it, or they do know about it but haven't figured out how to fix the "glitch" yet. I just want them to get it fixed .....



(PSIP does not count, I'm talking about PQ/encoding problems).


For one thing, PSIP counts to the station because it's in the FCC rules that they must support it. PQ/encoding issues/glitches are not.

PSIP is also important as some OTA receivers have to have proper PSIP from the station to even be able to decode a station.


WHIO fixed their issues and have a fantastic signal now. I don't have WDTN-DT (no OTA receiver), but from what I have read on here they appear to have a good signal. WRGT is fine because they don't do anything with it, they just rebroadcast the Fox signal.


WHIO has had long standing issues which have went months, or years before being corrected. There are the "blue lines" - which I never personally have seen, They had audio difficulties for Months after they started doing DD 5.1.

WDTN-DT multicasts a SD subchannel(they have done so since about spring 2003) and has problems with PQ during bandwidth demanding portions of HD programming.

In fact ALL digital stations in the area have had problems.

Fox's HD distribution system is unique as they use a "splicer" at the affiliate to "splice in" the network stream which is encoded at network level and isn't decoded until it reaches your decoder.


WKEF, however, has known about this issue since early last year (when they changed to ABC) because I emailed them about it early in the Monday Night Football season.

I first told WKEF engineers about the Video Freezes issues when it started occuring, during NBC HD back in either 2002 or 2003, I don't recall exactly when it started occuring, but I believe it was either Fall 2002 or spring 2003.


Based on their past history, however, WKEF will not do a thing about the issue. They are dragging their feet. I have yet to see them fix any problems in the year+ that I have been living back in Dayton (PSIP does not count, I'm talking about PQ/encoding problems).


I'm not defending them or making excuses for them, but I think you are making statements based on assumptions without having all the info. For instance, WKEF had an issue earlier this year which they fixed involving *some decoders* which were dropping frames due to a certian encoder setting. I was having the problem on one of my receivers, and I was in contact with their engineers about it, which is how I know it was a encoder setting causing the problems. There have been a number of issues they've addressed in fact since coming on the air in Feb 2002 when they've had problems.

I suspect, where the Video freezes are concerned, even if they HAVE *seen* the issue and have spent a good deal of time trying to "fix it", perhaps they haven't been able to track down or "figure out" what is causing this particular "glitch" as of yet. It is likely especially a difficult issue for them to track down since it is ONLY HAPPENING during HD feed - Including NBC HD prior to 9/04. And yes, I've told them it isn't the ABC HD feed itself, as this doesn't happen "simultanously from other ABC HD affiliates.

The fact of the matter is that they know and have known about this issue for quite some time and have done nothing about that has had any positive result.


I'm not sure that's the actual "Facts" of the matter.

All I can tell you is, when I talked to their Chief Engineer about it on the PHONE in Early May 2005), he seemed quite puzzled about it and did not seem aware the issue was occuring - even though I had mentioned it in Emails(they responded to) several times back to 2002 or 2003, and I know others have contacted them about it as well.

He mentioned that he thought it might be a reception issue, although I had explained to him that it was occuring only during HD, and didn't occur on the SD subchannel(when they had it). That's when he said that their "guys" were monitoring the off air signal at the station and that they weren't "noticing" the problem.


We could argue all day about whether they "care" about it and what that means. Unfortunately for us, whether this problems persists or not does not affect their bottom line and that is why it is not high on the priority list.

I agree with this statement. In this specific case, I'm not arguing about whether they "care" or don't care, or what or why or whatever, ....

In this specific case, all I'm doing is posting what I actually KNOW about concerning the issue in case it may help. I don't see how making assumptions, or "blaming them" for "dragging their feet" or whatever, or complaining about it is going to help us to help THEM to address the issue .....

I CAN tell you I've dealt with their engineers with several issues they've had since 2002, and they have not only usually addressed those issues fairly quickly(the video freezes being an exception), but have actually been MORE responsive than most stations in the area where issues concerning their digital stations are concerned.

All I can tell you is, when I talked to their Chief Engineer about it on the PHONE in Early May 2005), he seemed quite puzzled about it and did not seem aware the issue was occuring - even though I had mentioned it in Emails(they responded to) several times back to 2002 or 2003, and I know others have contacted them about it as well.

He mentioned that he thought it might be a reception issue, although I had explained to him that it was occuring only during HD, and didn't occur on the SD subchannel(when they had it). That's when he said that their "guys" were monitoring the off air signal at the station and that they weren't "noticing" the problem.

I think this proves what I've been saying all along... people have been contacting them about this issue since 2002/2003, they've had a ton of feedback over the past year, yet in May of 2005 their Cheif Engineer apparently was not aware of it happening.

As BuckNut said, it must not be high on their priority list. I do think that it is pathetic for someone to say he wasn't aware of it when we have been contacting him for years about this (and me, months). For him to think it was a reception issue is also a cop out being that I have told them over and over that it was an issue on Time Warner Cable, which from my understanding gets a direct fiber connection from WKEF's encoder.

I just don't want them to blow smoke up my a$$ telling me that they are working on the issue when they are not actually doing a thing about it. I'd rather them tell me to go F myself because then at least I'll know not to expect any kind of fix to the issue.

As far as WHIO's blue line, I was under the impression it turned out to be an issue with HDTV monitors. I thought people with the same tuner weren't seeing the same issue (maybe I'm remembering wrong). Either way, I don't see a problem so I don't care :D.

In an effort at being constructive, here is a quick summary of our combined experience:

WKEF has had a longstanding problem of both video and audio freezes during programming, resulting in viewers missing the program material during the duration of the freeze.

1. The freezes occur during HD programming and during upconverted SD feeds from ABC (e.g., Ohio State Games).
2. The audio and vide freezes occur at the exact same time.
3. The freezes appear random, sometimes they do not occur during an entire 30 minute program, sometimes they occur three or four times per 30 minute program.
4. The freezes typically last between two to five seconds in length.
5. Viewers report these freezers both through OTA reception and through TWC set top boxes (in my experience this includes a Voom OTA receiver, TWC 3250HD box, and TWC 8300HD, plus a fusion OTA HD card).
6. The same freezes occured both before and after WKEF's switch from NBC to ABC.
7. Viewers comparing live HD programming on WKEF and the same live programming on other ABC stations report that ONLY WKEF has the problem with freezing. The freezes are absent from other ABC affiliates.

All these observations point to one conclusion-- that the problem originates with WKEF and can be solved by WKEF. It is clear that the problem does not relate to ABC's national broadcast or the viewer's reception of the signal or the viewer's HD OTA or cable equipment.

WKEF, please fix the problem.

Sincerely,

AVS Forum Dayton and Cincinnati Members

For one thing, PSIP counts to the station because it's in the FCC rules that they must support it. PQ/encoding issues/glitches are not. That right there says A LOT ! They are required by the FCC to support PSIP, lest they get a slap on the wrist from the FCC, yet an issue that more people probably care about, PQ, that is, they do little to nothing about. Why ?? 1) It costs money, 2) their advertisers won't pull commercials (they pay to be shown on the SD channel anyway, where more viewers are), and 3) because they don't have to (FCC).

Has anyone ever considered mailing, via US Mail, snippets of this thread to the relevant chief engineers at each station ?? They surely get plenty of junk mail but put a return address of "HDTV Fan" or similar. :D That could get their attention and be less likely to throw it out. The fact that it should have a local postmark could help too.

I think this proves what I've been saying all along... people have been contacting them about this issue since 2002/2003, they've had a ton of feedback over the past year, yet in May of 2005 their Cheif Engineer apparently was not aware of it happening.


No, all it proves is that they were seemingly not aware there is a problem with their WKEF-DT video freezes, in fact, they STILL may not be aware of it. OR I suppose it is a possibility they KNOW about it but just can't do anything about it(for whatever reasons).

I'm sure they are quite used to receiving "inaccurate" reports from the "viewing public" concerning technical issues involving their stations. Which makes it particularly difficult for us to get our message through when there really *is* something wrong on their end that may not be easily detectable on their end. WKEF is no exception where this sort of thing is concerned.

For instance, One engineer I know has even referred to our posts on AVS as mostly a bunch of "technobabble"(and surely, along with the complaining that is unfortunately what much of it actually IS), and I wouldn't be surprised at all if our "video freezes" comments to WKEF were dismissed as the same .... WHICH is why it's better if a LOT of folks contact them about it ....

In any event, If they haven't already, they're probably going to have to detect the problem for themselves before they can do anything about it. It can't hurt if 10 or 20 people(or more) as opposed to 2 or 3 contact them about it.


I do think that it is pathetic for someone to say he wasn't aware of it when we have been contacting him for years about this (and me, months).


Well, I've certianly had the same thought in passing, but quickly dismissed it because of the assumptions(not facts) involved with the thought. And also, #1). I Know how difficult a Engineer's job can be(especially with FOUR stations to run) - especially in these times and how BUSY they likely are just keeping the analog stations(local news equipment/etc/etc) running, 2). It's very possible They are not likely getting all the resources(or equipment upgrades/or training/education on DTV/ATSC "matters" for that matter) they NEED to operate+monitor all their stations completely "effectively", and #3), perhaps most importantly I'm not sure we have ever been sucessful in geting our "message" through to them on this.

One can come up with all sorts of "ideas" and assumptions concerning why this or that issue is not being addressed by the station/etc, but If you ever DO have the oppurtinity to follow through+get ALL the facts(which often will not be available in any case) involved concerning this or that issue I think you might be surprised at what the actual reasons were concerning why it "took so long" for them to fix it ...

In emails I've sent to them where I've mentioned the "video freezes" and which they HAVE replied to OTHER comments in those emails, they had never replied to or specifically addressed the "video freezes". I only got a reply about it when I brought it up on the phone while discussing another issue, and I'm not so sure in that case I effectively got the message through about it either.

That tells me that for whatever REASON it's likely they either/or : 1). cannot "find" the problem/are not seeing it or haven't had a chance to put the "resources" into diagnosing the probeme, 2). did not read those comments, or did not put 1+1 together to figure out that its a problem on their end, or 3.) They know about it but can't do anything about it, at least without more "resources" being allocated to the issue by the "higher ups" .... If it's the latter, especially they may be "limited" in what they can tell us .... Which is another reason why it might help if as many folks as is possible CONTACT them about it ... Mr. DTV, their GM, their switchboard, a snail mail letter that goes in their "public file" and is available for Public(or FCC) inspection, ETc/etc/etc .....

It's frustrating, believe me, I KNOW. It can be like running a gauntlet to even get in contact with them at all.

But, in the end, It is THEIR station and is their business, and sooner or later I suspect it will come to their attention that it's an issue that needs addressing.



For him to think it was a reception issue is also a cop out being that I have told them over and over that it was an issue on Time Warner Cable, which from my understanding gets a direct fiber connection from WKEF's encoder.


You(we) may have told them over+over, but that doesn't mean our "message" actually got through to the extent they are/were "aware" of the issue .. .Again, like I said earlier, when there are problems with the analog station, they are used to the switchboard lighting up ... If just a FEW folks complain about some issue concerning their digital station(and again some emails probably don't even get read), the message can easily get "lost between the cracks" ... On the other hand, if their switchboard lights up to the extent they can't get anything else done, or If a major client of theirs, or the GM sees it on his HD set at home and has a way to figure out it's NOT the ABC HD feed, things might be different ....


I just don't want them to blow smoke up my a$$ telling me that they are working on the issue when they are not actually doing a thing about it.


I don't think they've done that ...


I'd rather them tell me to go F myself because then at least I'll know not to expect any kind of fix to the issue.


I'm sure it will get fixed sooner or later. Last time I spoke to their CE(chief Engineer on the phone), we both agreed that things would get much better DTV/HD wise when the analog stations are shut down ...

Then, the HD/DTV station WILL be their priority, and in the case of WRGT/WKEF staff, they'll only have TWO stations to take care of instead of FOUR .....

In an effort at being constructive, here is a quick summary of our combined experience:


Nice post dc10 -- That about covers it I think. [update] Couple of things though :

#1). I referred to a thread elsewhere about this somewhere back on this thread, and evidently at least at one time viewers of WABC NY(either via OTA, Cable or sat DNS) were experiencing this, or a similiar "video freezes" issue as well - at the time, I recall checking WCPO-DT and not seeing any(which were occuring on WKEF-DT of course) ....

#2). There are folks who have reported NOT getting the issue with their equipment. Meaning this could be an issue which is not effecting ALL chipsets/decoders, out there, just MOST of them. Or, it could also just mean those folks reporting they aren't seeing the issue just weren't watching when the freezes were occuring.

That right there says A LOT ! They are required by the FCC to support PSIP, lest they get a slap on the wrist from the FCC, yet an issue that more people probably care about, PQ, that is, they do little to nothing about. Why ?? 1) It costs money, 2) their advertisers won't pull commercials (they pay to be shown on the SD channel anyway, where more viewers are), and 3) because they don't have to (FCC).


I'm not so sure more people "care" about PQ, it's been proven time and time again that most people don't - AVSforum members are generally "different" ....

Otherwise, Yes, but I would not necessarily "equate" the fact the video freezes on WKEF-DT have been a longstanding issue with them not addressing it because of FCC rules. All I was pointing out are some of the reasons why PSIP is important, and does "count".

All current FCC rules say about PQ on DTV, is that Digital stations must provide at least one service available via MPEG2 "free" over the air that is at least EQUIVILENT in quality/resolution of their analog signal. It can be SD, it doesn't even have to be HD. If all they cared about were FCC rules, we wouldn't be getting ANY HD.

BUT, thinking about it more, I suppose a case could be made that the "video freezes" make it "lesser quality" than the analog .... I guess, instead of sending us HD, they could just upconvert ABC SD and that would take care of the "problem" right ? ;)

In fact, when I first started talking to Sinclair and WKEF about their station, "Mr. DTV" had told me the Only REASON WHY we had HD from WKEF-DT to begin with is because of folks AT the station. If you remember, Sinclair wasn't typically buying HD encoders or the equipment to pass through HD for it's stations at the time WKEF-DT first came on air -- EARLIER than their "necessary" on air deadline, in Feb 2002, to bring us 2002 Winter Olympics in HD from NBC/Hdnet. After the HD olympics, they went back off air until May 1, 2002, their FCC "on-air" deadline, and allowed WRCX-LP 51 (now on 40) Dayton to resume operations on 51 between march+April 2002.


Has anyone ever considered mailing, via US Mail, snippets of this thread to the relevant chief engineers at each station ?? They surely get plenty of junk mail but put a return address of "HDTV Fan" or similar. :D That could get their attention and be less likely to throw it out. The fact that it should have a local postmark could help too.

You do need to put in your full contact info/address if you want it to go into their "public file", which must be made available for inspection at the station by any member of the public who wants to see it.

I'd say Dc-10's post would be a good thing for folks to edit for their own circumstance(receiver model/etc), print out and send them(I'd put your name on it) and, If it doesn't get marked as "spam", folks might as well send it via email to mrDTV and the station "feedback" site as well ....

I'm not so sure more people "care" about PQ, it's been proven time and time again that most people don't - AVSforum members are generally "different" When it comes to HD, I do think more people care. A certain group of people, that is. The sad thing is, the majority of HDTVs sold likely end up hooked up to standard satellite or cable service, NOT any sort of HD service. These same people are NOT watching the local station's -DT feeds. The people who "care" have in fact went the extra step to receive HD service. If there are problems, because we're such a small number, our complaints need to be louder than usual. I can just imagine at the local stations at 8:02pm and the phones light up.... They say "the AVS Forum people are calling. Did someone flip the HD "switch" ?? " :D

As for PQ, there are different "levels" that I consider. The audio dropouts from WHIO last spring were BAD, to the point that a few shows were unwatchable. I haven't seen too many video dropouts to comment on. I have seen pixelation on occassion and just shrug my shoulders. It lasts for 1 second, might happen once in a 1-hour show, and it's JUST TV. I recall in this thread a complaint about pixelation during one particular show (suggesting that the station is "bandwidth-starving"). It wasn't during any part of the show, but during the opening credits. I mean, are people watching for flaws more than they're watching the show itself ?? As you say Jeff, AVS people are generally "different", especially in this regard. Many throughout this site watch a show only because it's in HD. Sorry, not I. I watch shows 'cause I like the content (or the actresses ;) )

In an effort at being constructive, here is a quick summary of our combined experience:

2. The audio and vide freezes occur at the exact same time, and for the exact same duration.


Oops! I read that one too fast earlier. MOST of the time when the video freezes occur from WKEF-DT, on ALL my receivers the audio continues as normal during the video freeze, OR audio only drops for about 1 second during a 5 second "freeze".

I'm getting slightly different results for the video freezes from different decoders(4 different models I've used+seen them with : RCA DTC-100, Zenith HDV420, Hisense DB-2010+Internal ATSC receiver in Sony KD-34XBR960).

The decoder in the Sony(and usually on the RCA) displays the last video frame decoded throughout the freeze, wheras the Zenith drops to "black"(in all cases the audio continues throughout the freeze, or again only drops for a second or so in the "middle" or near the end -- It seems like the decoder is getting the A/V streams back in "sync" ....



I recall in this thread a complaint about pixelation during one particular show (suggesting that the station is "bandwidth-starving"). It wasn't during any part of the show, but during the opening credits. I mean, are people watching for flaws more than they're watching the show itself ??


MPEG2 compression artifacts occur when the compression ratio is too high for the material being broadcast. This generally occurs most often when stations aren't allocating enough bandwidth for HD during bandwidth demanding portions of source material. It's probably most noticable when you can compare it during those bandwidth demainding portions of programing from a "bandwidth starved" HD service from a station with another station which doesn't have that problem.

"Digital looking artifacts" can be MISIDENTIFIED(but also effected somewhat by what the station is doing) as MPEG2 compression artifacts but can be caused by "issues" concerning signal processing by the user's display.

Seems to me you're sort of saying that PQ is important, but then again you seem to be saying you don't have a problem with MPEG2 compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding source material, such as IS a real problem with PBS HD(during bandwidth demanding portions of programming) from WPTD-DT .... It is NOT a problem from WHIO-DT currently, WKEF-DT, WRGT-DT or WBDT-DT .....

are we in the cincinnati thread??? lol

Jim You had said in post on last page concerning MNF this week that you weren't getting the problem, and so I'm wondering : Have you seen any of WKEF's video freezes with your HD-tivo(or any other equipment you're using) yet? There were some during the MNF HD Games this week ..... Or, the new issue some are getting to varying degrees concerning the audio drops, a couple of folks getting them every 7 seconds ....

Dusterscott was another poster who said on last page he hadn't seen any video freezes from them ....

It might be helpful if we knew for sure there are some decoders out there(and which ones they are) which these issues are not affecting ....

I just watched lost (man recording hd is sweet!) - anyway.. no problems.. no audio dropouts and no lipsync issues on wkef with the hd tivo. I did have 1 hiccup at the 7 minute mark where part of the screen looked overcompressed.. but that only lasted a split second. as far as mnf I was unable to watch this week.

are the dropouts constant (ie.. every 7 seconds?) on all hd shows? if so I may hook up the hughes htl-hd which is still in the rack to see if it is effected

jim

Jim,

Thanks for the report. Being that dusterscott hasn't seen them either(and WKEF engineer said they weren't getting it with their receiver they are using for off air monitoring) it certianly seems to me at this point that IT MUST NOT be affecting all decoders/chipsets out there as we have previously suspected.

If you do happen to notice the "freezes" or "audio dropouts" in the future, let us know.


are the dropouts constant (ie.. every 7 seconds?) on all hd shows?


We are discussing a couple of different issues here.

Issue #1: "video freezes" : These are what DC10forlife posted about.

These occur randomly, on average about 2 times per hour, ONLY during HD. They don't happen EVERY hour of HD, but sometimes you may see 4 or 5 or more of them in an hour. Different decoders seem to "handle" them a little differently, in my case, what usually happens is the freezes last about 5~6 seconds, where a frame of video "freezes" on the screen throughout those 5~6 seconds, while audio continues as normal throughout those 5 seconds, then after those 5~6 seconds audio video continues as normal until the next "freeze", which can be 5 minutes or more before or after a commerical break(or even within a national commercial break airing on abc HD "feed" as upconverted at network level), so "swtiching" between local+net doesn't seem to be an issue.

Almost(but not quite evidently) everyone seems to be getting these "video freezes" from WKEF-DT(and have been since sometime in late 2002 or early 2003), although I'm not so sure everyone that is not getting them has reported about it.

Issue #2: Audio drops :

These are a much more recent development, I think the first time anyone noticed them was Monday Night. 2 folks(both with Hitachi sets with internal ATSC tuners) are reporting getting these audio drops(just short "drops" of the audio) EVERY 7 seconds during HD. The audio drops seem much shorter in my case than they are getting,and I've only confirmed I'm getting them on one receiver(Zenith HDV420) and in fact I can hardly notice them if I'm not paying much attention and am just monitoring ... but I did notice about 15 of them during HD "invasion" last night. I/we also noticed last night that audio/video were slightly out of Sync at times during last night's ABC HD programming.

Okay, I received a reply from Roland, director of engineering at WKEF. This was forwarded by Mr.DTV to Roland and then he replied to me...

Here's what he had to say about -

1) 5.1 sound

We have not switched over to 5.1 audio yet because
we are waiting to install the new ABC digital rack, which we are
scheduled for next Tuesday.

2) Video freezes

I have only had one other viewer with the
same problem with video and audio drop outs on T.W.C. We are attempting
to sat up an appointment with T.W.C. We do monitor our over the air HDTV
signal all the time and do not see this problem. We do not monitor T.W.C.

-- I clearly mentioned that I am seeing this problem OTA on my integrated Mits tuner and it seems to have gone right past him.

3) Regarding not responding to their inquiry form on the WKEF website

You must be emailing and calling the wrong stations, because we reply to
all inquiry.

-- This kind of ticks me off, because it seems that they have some sort of auto forwarding set up to filter all viewer comments to their spam box.

I am going to tell him that I'm seeing this problem OTA as well.

1) 5.1 sound

We have not switched over to 5.1 audio yet because
we are waiting to install the new ABC digital rack, which we are
scheduled for next Tuesday. That's certainly good to hear. They'll no doubt be "working on" this setup for a while to get it right so this can be a good time to test their website's submission form !
2) Video freezes

I have only had one other viewer with the
same problem with video and audio drop outs on T.W.C. We are attempting
to sat up an appointment with T.W.C. We do monitor our over the air HDTV
signal all the time and do not see this problem. We do not monitor T.W.C. As Jeff has pointed out, this clearly affects some receivers and not others. Lucky for them, they've got an unaffected receiver. You can't expect them to go out and buy a dozen different OTA receivers to test on though either..... Even then, say they find out that older Samsung receivers, for example, have the problem. They report this to their vendor, who also needs this older Samsung model to test against....


3) Regarding not responding to their inquiry form on the WKEF website

You must be emailing and calling the wrong stations, because we reply to
all inquiry.

-- This kind of ticks me off, because it seems that they have some sort of auto forwarding set up to filter all viewer comments to their spam box. Let's all "test" it out now. Heh, they did ask for it !

Let's all "test" it out now. Heh, they did ask for it !

As I said earlier... I've told them over and over I use TWC, and I know I'm not the only person who has complained about it. I also have emailed them through their website multiple times, with no response. Either the engineer is lying or they have someone in the station not passing the info along.

As Jeff has pointed out, this clearly affects some receivers and not others. Lucky for them, they've got an unaffected receiver. You can't expect them to go out and buy a dozen different OTA receivers to test on though either..... Even then, say they find out that older Samsung receivers, for example, have the problem. They report this to their vendor, who also needs this older Samsung model to test against....

That's all well and good, but my point is he seems to be convinced that this is a TWC only issue, when in fact it is also being seen OTA. Hell I even mentioned that I'm seeing it on my Mitsubishi Integrated Tuner.

I'm seeing it on two different OTA receivers; a Samsung and a Zenith. It's exactly the same symptom on each: video freeze, audio continues, then the signal drops altogether for a few seconds. Same thing it's been doing for years.

Well, hopefully they'll finally get around to actually seeing the issue for themselves one way or another.

In this case, while I agree they proably can't go out and purchase every OTA DTV receiver out there(when they can even FIND them), I'm sure Sinclair has a OTA receiver lying around that has "the issue" which they can send WKEF, especially since so many decoder chipsets seem to be affected.

As I've said before, I expect this may be a difficult issue for them to track down, but hopefully once they realize they actually have a problem and can "see it" for themselves it will help them out quite a bit.

As I have told them several times, IF I recall correctly I believe the "video freezes" started occuring around the time I received this email from their CE, on 10/08/02 :

Jeff,
We lost our Fiber transmitter from the WKEF studios to our DTV
transmitter. We have a new one being overnighted from Evertz in
Canada. We hope to be back on the air sometime tomorrow.

Thanks
Roland

-----------------------

Now, that wouldn't *seem* to be a "direct" cause of the issue, since the STL(fiber transmitter) is(and has) been working just fine during upconverted SD programming on WKEF-DT. But I'm pretty sure the issue began occuring JUST after he replaced their STL fiber transmitter($$$$$ BTW).

I think I actually remember the first time I saw a video freeze from them. It was definitely during one of the first HD "ER" episodes, either Fall 2002 or early 2003. Never saw them during 2002 HD winter Olympics, or the FEW other HD shows NBC had in HD I watched from them between Feb 2002~Fall 2002. I remember it because WLWT-DT was off air most of summer/Fall 2002 due to tower work, and I had to rely on WKEF-DT for NBC HD.

-----------------------------------------

They had told me back in May 05 when we were addressing the "dropped frames" issue which were effecting some of our decoders(an issue which they fixed) they were using Harmonic DiviCom MV400 encoder -- Which is a popular encoder, used by many stations, including stations which don't have this issue(I know WCVN-DT uses one on KET4, and I think WSTR-DT uses one of those as well, Maybe WBDT-DT as well but I don't recall). It's also(or was) the Encoder Fox uses for the HD "splicer".

Thing is, one wouldn't probably expect an encoder issue, since it ONLY happens during HD feed(ABC or NBC). Best guess would seem to be something in the signal chain for HD(but not SD or SD upconverts) before the encoder, but it seems especially weird it's been happening during BOTH NBC(prior to 9/04)+ABC HD.

If they don't get around to addressing it before the ABC upgrades take place,(you never know), it might be interesting to see if the upgrades from ABC changes(or using the DD 5.1 stream from ABC) anything ....


2) Video freezes

I have only had one other viewer with the
same problem with video and audio drop outs on T.W.C. We are attempting
to sat up an appointment with T.W.C. We do monitor our over the air HDTV
signal all the time and do not see this problem. We do not monitor T.W.C.

-- I clearly mentioned that I am seeing this problem OTA on my integrated Mits tuner and it seems to have gone right past him.


Good work Rakesh! Sounds like they are at least "somewhat aware" of the issue now.

But, This just confirms in my mind that all the times I've mentioned the video freezes(affecting FOUR different OTA receiver models), to them, beginning well over TWO years ago, even in messages(or on phone) which WERE replied to(concerning other issues we were corresponding about) : my reports on this were evidently either just dismissed by them as "technobabble" or as a reception issue. Or, they've been so busy they just forgot about those reports.

EVEN THOUGH I also provided detailed info in those reports that I had confirmed that ththe video freezes were NOT occuring(ever) during syndicated/local programming, and WERE NOT occuring on the SD subchannel(when they had it running) when they WERE occuring on the HD subchannel. There is NO WAY that would happen if it were a reception issue. I don't in fact have ANY reception problems with them(or any other station). It's takes around 45db extra attenuation added to feedline from antenna to get down to near threshold levels for WKEF-DT.


3) Regarding not responding to their inquiry form on the WKEF website

You must be emailing and calling the wrong stations, because we reply to
all inquiry.

-- This kind of ticks me off, because it seems that they have some sort of auto forwarding set up to filter all viewer comments to their spam box.


Well, I went through this before with them 5 months ago about the "spam" -- In this case, involving the email addresses of their engineers, not the feedback forum. Again, I think the best way to contact them and get through is to call them.

I suspect many, if not most of those messages sent to their feedback form on website are either going into the spam box as you say, or are simply not being read at all. I won't mention the station(it's not in this market), but someone "in the biz" had told me according to this stations marketing director which he had talked to, the latter is the case concerning a certian other station in a nearby market with a very "similar" feedback forum ....



because we reply to
all inquiry.


Could have fooled me. For instance, as just ONE example of many, I have asked them TWICE in the past month and a half about DD 5.1. Although they did respond to other issues( A PSIP issue) I mentioned in one of those messages, they didn't answer my "inquiries" about DD 5.1. They also never answered my inquiries concerning their video freezes, except that one time we discussed it on the phone.

I'm not making any assumptions as to WHY that has been the case(I suspect it's probably more because they are just very busy and viewer "mail" takes up too much time rather than anything else), and NOT that that is unusual among stations, "in general".

Now, that wouldn't *seem* to be a "direct" cause of the issue, since the STL(fiber transmitter) is(and has) been working just fine during upconverted SD programming on WKEF-DT. But I'm pretty sure the issue began occuring JUST after he replaced their STL fiber transmitter($$$$$ BTW).

Am I the only one who sees the video lock ups during upconverted SD? Watching the OSU vs. Texas game 2 weeks ago I saw it, and I'm seeing a lot of it thus far into the OSU vs. Iowa game. I don't watch ABC except for their sports, so I can't tell you if there is an issue during SD sitcoms, but during sports it is definitely there.

No problems here OTA with Samsung SIR-TS360.

Am I the only one who sees the video lock ups during upconverted SD? Watching the OSU vs. Texas game 2 weeks ago I saw it, and I'm seeing a lot of it thus far into the OSU vs. Iowa game. I don't watch ABC except for their sports, so I can't tell you if there is an issue during SD sitcoms, but during sports it is definitely there.

Do we know whether or not ABC is sending SD upconverted at network level over the HD feed nowadays? I don't think they used to do that except during prime time, but if so, I suppose that could explain it.

I was just monitoring between 1:45pm and 2:10pm, (Zenith HDV420) and I did get a few drops - One was a short audio only drop(just got another one at about 2:13:49), the other two were complete audio/video drops, unlike how I experience the "video freezes" issue. Just had another complete Video+Audio drop approx 2:17:35~2:17:40.

I have never noticed that happening before from them during SD upconverts, including during ABC SD upconverts(except during national commercials during prime time coming over ABC HD feed). I often have a receiver on+montioring the stations out of corner of my eye while I'm working through the week(and WKEF-DT is one I often "check"), but I have not had a chance to do that much lately, and typically, when I am actually watching ABC SD, I'm watching it via either WCPO or WKEF analog stations.

Something has certianly "changed" for the worse lately with them I think as evidenced by the "audio only" drops during HD some are getting beginning sometime last week we were discussing earlier.

Perhaps we'll see some improvements when they get their equipment upgrades from ABC, which their CE told Rakesh was Scheduled to happen on Tuesday.

A couple of items worth noting, in regards to ABC -

1. Lost will be rerun next wednesday at 8 pm.
2. Invasion will be encored as a two parter, combining the first two episodes, next saturday.
3. I don't watch college sports, but the video freezes show up during all of abc's national programming, SD or not.

Perhaps we'll see some improvements when they get their equipment upgrades from ABC, which their CE told Roland was Scheduled to happen on Tuesday.

Jeff, if previous communication with WKEF has taught us anything, it is to take anything we receive with a grain of salt.

If it happens on Tuesday, great..If not, then it's no surprise.

between wcpo and wkef we certainly all get the run around!! why can't we have a nice abc affiliate in the cincinnati dayton area??? lol

jim

Just had an audio dropout at ~ 2:58 p.m. on WKEF, anybody else?

3. I don't watch college sports, but the video freezes show up during all of abc's national programming, SD or not.


Can you remember any sort of "time frame" when you've been seeing it during ABC SD, or has it been all along since they switched to ABC? Have you ever seen it happen during WKEF local/syndicated programming?(I haven't) ....

I'm still wondering whether or not ABC is sending all their SD programming over their HD feed now, and if WKEF is using that, now. If they are, that might also explain why they no longer "miss the switch" to ABC HD feed for HD programming, or at least not very often that I've noticed.

I don't know(as they haven't answered this either, although I asked them) but I had heard a "rumor" about this concerning other Sinclair stations in the region, and suspect they MAY be controlling switching for WKEF(and other sinclair stations in this region) from Columbus since earlier this year(around spring if I recall correctly is when we stopped seeing them "miss" ABC HD feed ...) ... I do know WDTN-DT is controlled from a "centralized" master control; LIN facility in Indianapolis, and there are doing the same for several other LIN stations, including a "recent" addition, WWHO-DT, WB/UPN HD Columbus - which LIN purchased from Viacom earlier this year. I've seen pics of that LIN facility, It is quite nice ....


Jeff, if previous communication with WKEF has taught us anything, it is to take anything we receive with a grain of salt.

If it happens on Tuesday, great..If not, then it's no surprise.

No doubt -- I didn't say it would happen on Tuesday ...

HOWEVER, I believe this is something thing ABC is doing for all its affiliates. WCPO(ABC Cincinnati) Enginner had told me earlier this year they were getting a new rack of all digital equipment from ABC scheduled for installlation this fall(I think he said september, but not sure).

Also, we had discussed WCPO-DT's "jaggies" issue early this year on a thread in hardware area, and Rory Boyce, AVSforum member, and engineer at ABC Sacramento/Ca had told us that beginning either late last year or early this year, ABC was upgrading their equipment(including for HD distribution) at ALL it's affiliates, beginning on West Coast+working their way to East.

That's not to say the "new" ABC HD distribution and whatever new things they are doing with it will go into effect "immediately" once it's installed at WKEF, but who knows. I have not seen any details concerning what ABC is going to be doing differently with their HD feed(if anything other than equipment upgrades at the affiliates), BUT I do recall reading back when FOX was working on building out it's HD "splicer" distribution, ABC higher ups were checking it out and seemed very interested in what Fox was doing.

between wcpo and wkef we certainly all get the run around!! why can't we have a nice abc affiliate in the cincinnati dayton area??? lol

jim


It was nice when WDTN-DT was the Dayton ABC HD affiliate ... They even Had DD 5.1 within a few months of coming on air in Early 2003 ....

I don't recall them having too many problems, other than some sync issues for a time when they first started doing DD 5.1 ...

WCPO-DT was also VERY reliable(and had excellent HD PQ) until AFTER their studio move last summer .....

WSYX-DT 13 ABC HD Columbus(they do have DD 5.1 as well BTW and are also sinclair owned) I see quite often, but, for a long time(I haven't seen it in about a year or more) they had the same "dropped frames" issue effecting some decoders which WKEF/WRGT was having for a time earlier this year.

I don't know, but perhaps it isn't a "coincidence" that a number of ABC HD affiliates seem to have perhaps more "problems" than other stations ... If there are some "ABC specific"/distribution equipment(sat receivers/etc) issues involved, hopefully the upgrades they're doing at the affiliates will perhaps go a long way to fix some of these issues.

As I've said before, I expect stations(not only WKEF for DD 5.1) may want to WAIT until after those upgrades are installed, and seeing how the new stuff "works" before doing any add'l upgrading of their digital stations. That includes WCPO-DT's Jaggies, and DD5.1 audio -- especially since WCPO said In Spring 2004 they were going to be doing DD 5.1 by Fall 2004 ... My guess is, they found out about the ABC upgrades AFTER they made the announcement that they would be doing DD 5.1 by fall 2004, and decided it was better to wait ... Or, if ABC is doing it like Fox is with the splicer where the encoding is done purely at network level with no decoding/reencoding necessary at the station , the station itself won't actullly NEED their own equipment for DD 5.1 capability ... Again, just speculation as I don't think ABC is telling us what they are doing with these "upgrades" as Fox did ....

Just had an audio dropout at ~ 2:58 p.m. on WKEF, anybody else?

Wasn't monitoring then, but just got a Video Freeze at approx. 3:54pm EDT(zenith HDV420).

This one is the first one I've seen today(or during ABC SD) that behaved exactly like the Video Freezes during ABC HD do on this receiver. Video Freezes for about 3 seconds, audio continues for those 3 seconds, then for about 1 second Video drops to black/Lose audio, then both video+audio return and continue as mornal.

Also, Just got a audio drop during a National commercial(car commercial) at approx. 3:58pm ....

Am I the only one who sees the video lock ups during upconverted SD? Watching the OSU vs. Texas game 2 weeks ago I saw it, and I'm seeing a lot of it thus far into the OSU vs. Iowa game. I don't watch ABC except for their sports, so I can't tell you if there is an issue during SD sitcoms, but during sports it is definitely there.

In addition to my previous response to the above on last page, I thought I should add here that :

#1) I can tell you that I have monitored WKEF-DT and looked for Video freezes quite extensively during SD upconverts - ABC SD, Local/syndicated programming, whatever ... BUT not so extensively since just after they switched to ABC last year(around this time last year). At that time, I didn't see any of the video Freezes that were present during HD. But I have NOT done that since then, and have watched very little ABC SD from them since then-- In the past 9~12 months when I do tend to be monitoring them during Non-HD times, it's usually been during local/syndicated programming. I made a point to do this as I wanted to see if the affiliate change to ABC made any difference in the "freezes" ....

#2). Also, I had done the same on several occasions for NBC SD/Local/etc. prior to the ABC switch back to when I first noticed the issue with WKEF-DT and NBC HD(late 2002 or early 2003), and also only noticed it happening during NBC HD on those occasions.

That "extensive montioring" during all different sorts of programming for upconverts were what I was basing my earlier "Happens during HD only" comments. Is it possible it could have been happening with SD then, and I just didn't catch it? Yes, I suppose so but I don't see how. Or, could it have been happening with SD then but not with my receivers? I suppose that's a more likely possibility, but I sort of doubt it.

However, in any case, obviously per my earlier reports it's now happening(don't know for how long back to about a year ago) during ABC SD(either upconverted at network level or sent over ABC HD feed, or ABC SD feed upconverted by WKEF) as well. When I get a chance, I'll try to monitor them more during local/syndicated programming and see if I catch it happening at all there, either.

Video freezes aplenty during college football games today.

It began to piss off my friends watching the OSU game at my place. We switched over to analog cable feed which was even more blurry than the upconverted SD.
One of them complained about the same issue on his TV. He has the Time Warner DVR. We spent some time complaining about what a bush league operation WKEF is.

Meanwhile a horrible SEC game can be enjoyed on CBS in HD and 5.1. ABC looks fuzzy and the sound is practically mono. Some of the shots from Ohio Stadium looked like webcam quality.

I didn't have any video freezes down here but I had about 10 very short audio dropouts throughout the game. I do agree with your comments on the PQ. It's not so bad on close shots, but distant shots looked like crap.

I've thought The SD productions for many college football games from ABC(from any station I've seen) have had particuarly horrid PQ IMO the past several years. I don't remember it being like this in the early 90's or earlier.

I have seen video freezes for HD and SD upconverts on WKEF for TWC SA8000, SA8300, and OTA Samsung TS360. So far, I have never had a tuner that was not affected in the past 14 months.

I have seen video freezes for HD and SD upconverts on WKEF for TWC SA8000, SA8300, and OTA Samsung TS360. So far, I have never had a tuner that was not affected in the past 14 months.

So ...

#1) Dusterscott has a Sammy 360 and hasn't seen the video freezes on it(although he's been watching when they've occured), but Bucknut has them on his .....

#2). I haven't had/noticed the freezes on ABC SD upconverts until recently(haven't noticed them until today), and still haven't noticed them during local/syndicated programming, but I HAVE been seeing the freezes from them during HD(NBC+ABC) back to early 2003 or late 2002 .... but others have evidently been getting Freezes during ALL WKEF programming for quite some time .....

Is Dusterscott's 360 using different firmware than Bucknut? .... Could that be why they are seeing something different? Or, HDMI/DVI or 1394 vs Component? ...

I'm using RGB or component analog HD connections on all my receivers/displays BTW, have used 4 different HD displays(3 currently) and a couple of PC monitors and analog TV's via either composite video or S-video(freezes still there on those as well) .....

Yikes ! I wonder WTF is going on here! Granted, we knew different receivers were getting different things, and some seem to be entirely uneffected(or nearly so) but the SAME reciever model acting differently for different folks?

Over the years, only the Blue Lines have been as "mysterious", and we never did figure out what was causing the "stopwatchable" signal drops everyone was getting from WHIO-DT for a time, at the exact same time in late 2001/Early 2002, although whatever it was they fixed it within a couple of months or so ....

If I didn't know better I'd probably think it was a reception issue(or OTA RF transmission issue) as well, especially if there is a chance TW is actually using a OTA recevier at the cable Headend for their signal instead of fiber from the encoder(It has been posted the latter is the case, though) .... AND I can certianly understand why The WKEF engineers expect it might be reception issues ....

It WAS easier to make sure here OTA wise when they were running their SD subchannel where the freezes never happened ....

I'm pretty much clueless at this point, but My best guess is STL issue or encoder issue, but that some decoders(or their firmware) are just handling it better than others ...

Maybe Murphy's law or ghosts in the machine are a better guess ......

[update] : On the encoding/decoding side ... Some sort of MPEG data/frame sync or Buffer issue perhaps ?

Is Dusterscott's 360 using different firmware than Bucknut? .... Could that be why they are seeing something different? Or, HDMI/DVI or 1394 vs Component? ...

I have firmware version 1.2.35 from July '05. I've seen a few postings on one of the Sammy 360 threads about receiver lockups that started this summer but nothing about reception issues. My firmware upgrade was thankfully successful. I'm not sure if D* gives you the firmware upgrades over the dish or through the phone line, but I've been suspecting that some people's units didn't get a successful upgrade in July. If it helps, I'm using the DVI output. Audio is always handled with an optical cable going to my Denon receiver. I won't be monitoring WKEF this afternoon but if anybody's seeing these problems this morning, let me know, and I'll be glad to watch and take notes. It would be nice if we all could watch the same program while taking notes so we could compile the information afterwards.

I won't be monitoring WKEF this afternoon but if anybody's seeing these problems this morning, let me know, and I'll be glad to watch and take notes. It would be nice if we all could watch the same program while taking notes so we could compile the information afterwards.

Yeah, most of us will likely be watching HD football today ...

Rakesh and I have watched the same program before and took notes on exactly-* when the Video Freezes occur. It was a HD episode of Alias, and there are posts on it somewhere back in this thread from earlier this year or late last year - I via OTA, and he via TW cable -- We saw the exact same number of video freezes at the exact same times.

* - I reported the freezes to the second(including their duration), via a clock calibrated to WWV(the "atomic clock" at national bureau of standards), using Zenith HDV420 receiver. Rakesh was using a TW DVR recording, and the freezes at the times I reported matched up with the times(program elapsed time I assume) they occured in his recording.

The above is just another thing that confirms it isn't a reception issue on the user end, as different folks(even a OTA receiver at TW Headend) aren't going to be getting reception related dropouts occuring on the user end at the exact same time from different receive locations. and If TW is getting the feed from WKEF-DT via fiber straight from WKEF encoder, obviously it's not a reception issue for TW viewers.

I've done this before (and is how I confirmed it wasn't happening on the SD subchannel when it was happening on the HD subchannel they used to have it - other than never seeing a freeze on their SD subchannel), but If I get a chance I'll have to pull one of my receivers out of the Bedroom+hook it up "side by side" with another receiver+use a seperate monitor with it with both receivers tuned to WKEF-DT and monitor it for a while and make sure both receivers are getting the video freezesf at the exact same time.

Anyway, I do have a feeling the Video Freezes have gotten worse(are occuring more frequently) for some reason in the last week or so.

Update: Since I'm posting anyway ... I've been out of the room at times, but I have not seen any Freezes, or gotten any dropouts during ABC "SD this WeeK' between 11:10am~11:30am, or the first 3 minutes of the infomerical that began airing on WKEF-DT at 11:30am.

I will try to check my firmware version on my Sammy 360 this afternoon and get back to everyone. However, I can say that I have seen the freezes on WKEF with the 360 hooked up with both RGB and component.

With regard to the blue lines on WHIO.... I have never seen these on my Sammy 360 and always wondered what everyone was talking about. Then when I recently signed up for TWC I saw them and continue to see them with the SA8300.

Some advice I had to swim through a bunch of trash to get in another thread:


In regards to TWC:



Now with all that said if you really want help to get better picture quality (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this) this is what I suggest below.

Swap out your box for one of these proven boxes below.
SA Explorer 8300HD DVR.
SA Explorer 3250HD or 4000 series HD.
Pace Micro 550 box or a Motorola box assuming your area uses them.

If doing the above doesn't work try to get a service call and demand that they check all the wiring outside of your house and all the gizmos they have in those boxes in the area. If you have a friend a few houses down that has an HDTV set with your cable company see if he/she has the same issues as this will tell you if its systemwide or something specific to your house. If your friend has the problems try and see if a friend that lives in another area has the same issues. Again try and find out if this is the norm or just your area because filters and such in just your area could be bad.

Now if none of this works well we can't suggest anything else but this below.

Enjoy the bad cable service, DirecTV and/or Dish Network if you so please.

Now that all of this is said please don't continue posting complaints if you tried all of this because we can't help you any further than this. If you feel the need to expose your cable companies practices if they are indeed doing this on their owna good place todo this would be in your local forum.

If anyone else has anything that might help this user figure out what is wrong please provide it. Again we must stress that your problems aren't normal by any means.

TWC owners in this area, are you like me and completely stuck with hardware that destroys the picture quality, or are some of these newer boxes actually BETTER?

You all have seen me write in this thread before about this. TWC's STB's destroying picture quality to the point that even my mom, who's hardly a videophile, can see it. I've gone to hell and back to try and make it work and I've given up.

I'm having a CEDIA man come out Monday to scout my house out for a satellite install.

All input appreciated.

I watched the end of the Eagles - Raiders game on WHIO in SD. What a difference in PQ compared to the OSU game yesterday on WKEF.

I have seen video freezes for HD and SD upconverts on WKEF for TWC SA8000, SA8300, and OTA Samsung TS360. So far, I have never had a tuner that was not affected in the past 14 months.

I've got a .ts recording of the OSU v. Iowa game -- many many freezes. Audio kept going during the freezes however.

Perhaps it only occurs on ABC national feeds sent to the HD subchannel vs. the SD subchannel as per nitewatchman's observations.

I'll have to make an OTA recording of both subchannels sometime.

If I get my hands on an OTA HD receiver, I'd gladly compare things for you, but to be honest, you're the only person I've seen who's complained about the PQ from TWC. Mind you, I don't go looking for complaints, but I've never ran across any either.

flipped over to the DH season premiere on WKEF..video freezes and pulsing audio dropouts are pretty bad.

i had 4 noticable dropouts during dh on the hd tivo last night.. the picture would break up and then freeze the tivo for about 3 seconds and then come back.. however, when I would rewind and play it again - it would only last for about a second. I will try and watch mnf tonight and see what I get

jim

If I get my hands on an OTA HD receiver, I'd gladly compare things for you, but to be honest, you're the only person I've seen who's complained about the PQ from TWC. Mind you, I don't go looking for complaints, but I've never ran across any either.


I'm AMAZED. Are you kidding me?

My God, I've run through so many of their STB's only to watch the PQ get utterly destroyed vs. just running the cable straight from the wall to my TV. The PQ sans STB is quite respectable, most of the time, especially with the CBS, ABC, and Fox HD that my XBR960's tuner can pick up. (Until TWC knocks those "freebies" out like they did Discovery HD and TNT-HD a couple of months ago.)

Again, even my mom, hardly a videophile, noticed it right away, every time.

I can't believe I'm the only one who's noticed this mediocre service and hardware quality.

I'm AMAZED. Are you kidding me?

My God, I've run through so many of their STB's only to watch the PQ get utterly destroyed vs. just running the cable straight from the wall to my TV. The PQ sans STB is quite respectable, most of the time, especially with the CBS, ABC, and Fox HD that my XBR960's tuner can pick up. (Until TWC knocks those "freebies" out like they did Discovery HD and TNT-HD a couple of months ago.)

Again, even my mom, hardly a videophile, noticed it right away, every time.

I can't believe I'm the only one who's noticed this mediocre service and hardware quality.

I agree with Hall. I have never had a PQ issue with any TWC hardware. I have compared with OTA and D* and had no obvious difference. The SA8300HD DVR is faster at displaying menus, changing channels, etc., and less buggy, but the PQ looks the same as the SA8000HD DVR. I had their HD digital cable box in Cincinnati (when I lived there, forget which model number) and saw no real PQ difference either.

I was watching football on ESPN last night, but switched over a few times to WKEF-DT, and the only one I caught was a Video Freeze at approx. 9:47pm During HD DH. Same thing as usual with Zenith HDV420, Frame of video freezes, audio continues for about 3~4 seconds, then both Audio/Video drop for about or less than a second, then audio/video continues as normal.



Perhaps it only occurs on ABC national feeds sent to the HD subchannel vs. the SD subchannel as per nitewatchman's observations.

I'll have to make an OTA recording of both subchannels sometime.

The only observation/point I made concerning their SD subchannel was that when they HAD the SD subchannel, there were NEVER any video freezes which occured on the SD subchannel, even when they were occuring on the HD subchannel. If it were a reception issue, dropouts would occur on the SD subchannel as well.

Sorry if I wasn't more clear.

There hasn't been an SD subchannel on WKEF-DT for quite some time. They either dropped it around the time, or just after they switched to ABC, or around the time they started sending PSIP channel remapping info early this year(I think it was the latter, but can't recall).

I had never seen any video freezes/dropouts on their HD subchannel DURING ABC (or NBC) upconverts before Saturday during the college football. But, I don't watch much non-HD programming from ABC(same thing with NBC prior to when they switched) on WKEF-DT. I still haven't seen any video freezes/dropouts on WKEF-DT(HD subchannel) during WKEF Syndicated/local programming.

FYI - Roland Martel, Director of Engineering / Operations for WKEF emailed me and said 5.1 should be up this weekend if all goes well. I also pointed him to this thread about the dropouts.

jim

I agree with Hall. I have never had a PQ issue with any TWC hardware. I have compared with OTA and D* and had no obvious difference. The SA8300HD DVR is faster at displaying menus, changing channels, etc., and less buggy, but the PQ looks the same as the SA8000HD DVR. I had their HD digital cable box in Cincinnati (when I lived there, forget which model number) and saw no real PQ difference either.

Remarkable.

The HD boxes they have here are Pioneer models. I haven't tried DVR yet for the simple reason that I hesitate to throw much more money at this monster at this point. (Long story.)

I wish there was a way I could take that SA8300 box for a quick test whirl here in my house, without worrying about being gouged for it. 2 minutes is all I would need to make a determination one way or the other.

FYI - Roland Martel, Director of Engineering / Operations for WKEF emailed me and said 5.1 should be up this weekend if all goes well. I also pointed him to this thread about the dropouts.

jim

In all likelihood, this week's scripted programming will be mangled(lost, invasion and alias, among others) by the pulsing audio and freezes.

It would be nice if this new installation somehow takes care of all the issues we've been having, but I'm not holding my breath.

The PQ sans STB is quite respectable, most of the time, especially with the CBS, ABC, and Fox HD that my XBR960's tuner can pick up. (Until TWC knocks those "freebies" out like they did Discovery HD and TNT-HD a couple of months ago.)


#1) They aren't "freebies". Current FCC "interpetation" of FCC regulations require most cablecos to provide all local digital broadcast signals they carry "in the clear" on their lowest cost tier, so they are "available" to all their cable subscribers. They don't have to provide the equipment to receive them. This doesn't apply to cablenets such as discovery HD, TNTHD which don't have the public interest obligations that partly come from use of the public airwaves that is the case with broadcast stations.

We've discussed this a number of times on this thread, and you can also find good info on it in this thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=575040&goto=newpost

#2). Concerning your PQ issues -- hopefully the below is somewhat decipherable. I have difficult time commenting on such issues given the mix of "art and science" involved. I also have no experience with the TW hardware. And, since you haven't "detailed" the sorts of PQ issues you are talking about, It makes it difficult to know exactly what PQ problems you are seeing. AND it would probably take more of an "extensive" discussion than I have time to participate in or investigate all the possible "variables" involved currently, however, some quick comments below which *may* be beneifical for you, concerning some XBR960 PQ issues from my experience with it.

a.) (in a general way, especially perhaps if your set is "reasonably" well calibrated) I think It's very good at exposing "flaws" that are actually there in the "signals" you are getting. I sometimes wish it didn't do such a good job at this, that is until I see what it looks like when there are no(or few) flaws ... especially during HD .....

b.) You may be able to improve things with some SM tweaks (if you are so inclined to "mess with it") -- Besides "playing around" with the "sharpness" slider in user menu, You might want to especially check out Ken Tech's Sony SM Tweaks thread in Direct-View area, especially his article on "image processing", and some of the settings in SM groups 2170p3+MID5, MId5 table/columns which are mapped to 2170p3 #16 MIDE value, as well as comments on those settings posted in that thread.

c.) One of the first things I noticed when I first got my XBR960 was that I was seeing a lot of "digital looking" artifacts in places I had never seen them before with other displays+hardware. At first, I thought it was primarily due to signal processing the XBR was doing. Especially as I had came across the same sort of more "prounounced" digital looking artifacts(from all sources in this case) than I thought should be there before with a Samsung(TXN2668WHF) set - and with THAT set I was able to "fix" the problem by adjusting some service menu settings it has for Band Pass filtering. BUT the more I paid attention, the more I noticed that the "digital looking" artifacts I was seeing on XBR960 were just NOT there to any signficant degree from analog OTA sources, OR during "bandwidth demanding programming" from Digital HD stations which weren't multicasting, or which are allocating "enough" bandwidth for their HD/SD services. It is more of a problem with E*(dish network) SD channels, and OTA digital/HD stations which aren't allocationg "enough"(IMO) bandwidth to their services.

d).When "playing around" with the "sharpness" control, and 2170p3+MID5 column settings in service menu, I also noticed how much of an effect different "settings" had even on the "noticability" of, apparent "digital looking"/MPEG compression artifacts from DVD! Apparenlty, It's not just EE that are "affected" by some of these settings.

e). I still haven't detirmined with 100% certianity how much of the "digital looking" artifacts I'm experiencing with it is because of what is happening with the signals from the "source", or from the hardware hooked up to it, such as DVD player or my E* receiver, and how much is "occuring" because of XBR960's signal processing. From what it looks like to me, some of it is certianly because of the latter. But, it seems very telling that, with XBR960's internal NTSC/ATSC OTA tuners, I'm not seeing a noticable problem with analog OTA signals, OR from digtial/HD stations such as say, WHIO-DT (CBS HD Dayton) which aren't multicasting, But I DO see the issue, even WITH the internal tuner on SD multicast services from the various PBS digital stations in the area, and from stations which are doing 1080i+Multicasting currently such as WDTN-DT, or WKRC-DT(CBS HD) Cincinnati. Certianly, these things show up to some extent on other displays I have as well, they just show up MORE(and are more noticable and have a "different" sort of character to them than "standard" MPEG artifacts) on the XBR960(see a. above).

I've found "optimizing" various 2170p3+MID5 "settings" per input(for the device you have hooked to that input) and/or scan rate used with that input/etc, along with optimizing "sharpness" slider for that input has certianly helped a LOT - although of course I'm primarily optimizing those for "other reasons". I don't want a "dull soft pic", but I don't want much "artifical" EE added either in most cases - although to my eyes a "little" added "sharpness" is often a good thing -- I even found a "little" SVM is a good thing --- but by a "little" I mean much less than VM set to "low" in user menu with Sony's factory settings.

On my set I played around fairly extensively with various different values for the "relevant" 2170p3+MID5 settings for different inputs/etc, but, other than for my DVD player at 480p(component), I have ended up pretty close to what Ken Tech is using and has commented on in that SM tweaks thread for all other inputs. Among other things, as far as SM tweaks go, I also changed the other necessary service menu values to Pro mode defaults(at first) so I could actually "use" "vivid", "standard" and "movie" mode for something, such as for experimental purposes when seeing the "differences" some settings such as certian 2170p3/MID5 settings. I have "standard" set up as the main mode I use, with slightly different gamma settings set up for "Movie", I use "vivid" for experimenting, and have left "pro" at defaults for reference.

----------

All that being said -- as far as the TW hardware goes -- What I've often heard is that some of the hardware used by cableco's sometimes doesn't do a great job upconverting SD -- So, for SD channels from the cable box, you might want send 480i, or NTSC video from the box(Via S-video or composite if necessary) and let the set do the upconversion. You may still want to "optimize" the P2170p3+MID5 settings in the SM for the input/scan rate used, however(true for component or HDMI in for "HD signals from the box as well, I'd think -- from the FACTORY(on my set at least) they're even a bit different for the HDMI or component inputs than the settings for the internal ATSC receiver -- which according to Service manual schematics, if I'm reading it right looks to use a "internal" Component video connection.

IF YOU DO mess with the SM settings -- Word of warning IT can be VERY confusing, especially in this case as nearly EVERY input+EVERY scan rate has independant settings for 2170p3+mid5 columns -- of course make sure to have all the factory defaults wrote down !!! And, definitely use Ken Tech's SM thread in Direct-View area for info on it, not this ....

FYI - Roland Martel, Director of Engineering / Operations for WKEF emailed me and said 5.1 should be up this weekend if all goes well. I also pointed him to this thread about the dropouts.

jim

Thanks for taking the time/effort to contact them, Jim.

Wow, thanks as always Jeff! You've given me some food for thought and experimentation tactics I can try and employ. I am going to have this CEDIA man really take a long, hard look at the wiring in this house and so on, among other things.

I haven't forgotten our past chats! :)

The PQ degradation I'm talking about, that even my mom saw, via STB would be a overall sense of muddiness, lack of vibrance, lack of color, more video noise...just a lower quality picture in every respect you could name.

My XBR960 has been ISF calibrated, FWIW. The TV she is using an XBR400, from a few years ago. The other TV in the living room is some fairly nice Sony 27 inch WEGA from about 4-5 years ago now, give or take.

Remarkable.

The HD boxes they have here are Pioneer models. I haven't tried DVR yet for the simple reason that I hesitate to throw much more money at this monster at this point. (Long story.)

I wish there was a way I could take that SA8300 box for a quick test whirl here in my house, without worrying about being gouged for it. 2 minutes is all I would need to make a determination one way or the other.

I picked up an 8300HD from TWC two weeks ago when TWC -Western Ohio got boxes equipped with firewire (hopefully they will be enabled by the time the blu-ray recorders come out). It has about the same picture quality as my 3250HD (for HD material), but they are on unequal playing fields considering I have DVI out on the 3250 and component out on the 8300HD. Anyway, a long time ago I had a pioneer box, which at the time, I was impressed with the picture. I think the 3250 was an improvement over the pioneer. You may want to try an DVI enabled 3250 or a 8300HD. So far, I have been very happy with the picture quality on both.

Who did the calibrating? I am looking for a good local (cincinnati/dayton/columbus) calibrator. Anyone have any recomendations?

jim




My XBR960 has been ISF calibrated, FWIW. The TV she is using an XBR400, from a few years ago. The other TV in the living room is some fairly nice Sony 27 inch WEGA from about 4-5 years ago now, give or take.

I am looking for a good local (cincinnati/dayton/columbus) calibrator. Anyone have any recomendations?


Chad B in Dayton.

Check out his website here :

http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/

Chad B in Dayton.

Check out his website here :

http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/

Chad B is who did my ISF calibration. AWESOME! Great guy, downright selfless and dedicated service to an almost insane degree.

Here's my testimonial about Chad:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=561596&highlight=ISF

Chad is THE man!!! :D

My CEDIA man (Brian from Barry Electronics here) came by and, if he does this satellite install on Friday, he and I both went through some hardware issues that the cable company glossed over that he's going to fix.

Heh, the plot thickens. ;) Thanks for the heads up, dc10! :)

I've been subscribed to the SA 8000HD/8300HD thread here at AVS for longer than I've had TW service (research before switching :D). People who had HD service from TW before DVRs had Pioneer or SA boxes, model # something like the 3250HD already mentioned. People thought the PQ from them was very good. The 8000HD was a noticable step-down in PQ. The 8300HD is quite an improvement from the 8000HD and on par or very close (or better ?) to the PQ of the non-DVR HD box.

Go to TW's office (still on Elida Rd ??) and swap your set-top for an 8300HD. Try it out. If you have it for a day or less and don't like it, I'm sure they'll not charge you or pro-rate the cost.

The 8300HD is quite an improvement from the 8000HD and on par or very close (or better ?) to the PQ of the non-DVR HD box.


Must have been an early firmware issue you had... when I got my 8300HD it was not any better looking than the 8000HD (they both looked good)... the software on it ran MUCH faster, however.

I was actually listing the general consensus of most people from that thread, but in fact, I did notice a marked "difference", and I would say an improvment, when I replaced my 8000HD with the 8300HD. I did not get my 8300HD when TW-WOH first rec'd them so there could be firmware differences. What most people attributed the change to was the increased amount of (video) RAM though. Many considered the 8000HD "starved" for memory.

I would definitely agree about the memory issue for the 8000HD. The improvement was greatly noticeable.

I was only able to catch mnf for about 45 minutes last night. Only noticed 1 freeze - other than that it was good.. and ironically, the freeze was during a commercial for the robbery movie.

jim

Normally, I wouldn't post private comments, but given the content, I think this one is OK ...

Just received the following message via AVSforum Email From Roland at WKEF/WRGT. Private contact info removed. Note : My reply thanked him for the info, and I told him I would keep an eye on it when I can, and if there are any problems I notice(after they get the new equipment installed) I will call him next week or soon after, after I've had a chance to check it with the different receivers here/etc in case there are any "decoder specific" things going on ....

----------------------------------------------

Subject: WKEF

This is a message from rjmartel at AVS Forum .......

This is the message:



We started installing the new ABC digital rack yesterday and hope to have it all done by this Friday. We have been waiting for the new rack to install DD 5.1 and hope to have it up also. We are also working hard on the video and audio problems. I will try to check in to AVSforum more often. Thanks Roland Martel 937.xxx.xxxx.

I appreciate all of you who have commented your various problems. However, it seems to me like you're getting the hit-and-miss problems (video freezes, occasional audio drops, etc.). I really do think my problem is related to the built-in tuner in my Hitachi 57s700 and the way WKEF broadcasts. It has been more than two weeks and going on three weeks that I have this every 7 sec audio drops. It is so unwatchable that I am thinking of buying a new tuner or a new tv. Hope WKEF will get their act together, though I doubt it since I'm in the minority with this problem.

I appreciate all of you who have commented your various problems. However, it seems to me like you're getting the hit-and-miss problems (video freezes, occasional audio drops, etc.). I really do think my problem is related to the built-in tuner in my Hitachi 57s700 and the way WKEF broadcasts. It has been more than two weeks and going on three weeks that I have this every 7 sec audio drops. It is so unwatchable that I am thinking of buying a new tuner or a new tv. Hope WKEF will get their act together, though I doubt it since I'm in the minority with this problem.

Hold off at least until this weekend...My hope is that this new media rack will magically fix the video freeze issue.

I can confirm what you're seeing with your built in tuner. I'm seeing the audio drop problem RIGHT NOW on my Mitsubishi integrated tuner. I'm NOT seeing this on Time Warner. Really weird -- I guess they got a hold of a TWC box and fixed at least the pulsing issue. Video freezes are still present(I noticed at least two tonight, during Lost).

Hold off at least until this weekend...My hope is that this new media rack will magically fix the video freeze issue.

I can confirm what you're seeing with your built in tuner. I'm seeing the audio drop problem RIGHT NOW on my Mitsubishi integrated tuner. I'm NOT seeing this on Time Warner. Really weird -- I guess they got a hold of a TWC box and fixed at least the pulsing issue. Video freezes are still present(I noticed at least two tonight, during Lost).

Yes, but is your audio problem cyclic (every 7 seconds) or is it sporadic? And I don't understand the least what they are doing? Would they want to have all their ducks in a row before moving to something new? Very frustrating.

Yes, but is your audio problem cyclic (every 7 seconds) or is it sporadic? And I don't understand the least what they are doing? Would they want to have all their ducks in a row before moving to something new? Very frustrating.

The audio problem on WKEF through my Mits tuner is cyclic/periodic..approximately every7 seconds as you describe it.

This issue, however, is not present on time warner..I agree that it's frustrating(you can probably see the frustration i've had, just by reading back through this thread), but hang in there till the weekend. Let's see what the media rack does with the video, if anything at all.

I really think it is best, and perhaps especially for those experiencing "hardware specific" issues(such as the constant 7 second audio drops the hitachi+mits sets with internal tuners are having) to contact the engineers at the stations and tell them about it, and or the manufacturer - If the latter has came across this issue before, they *might* have some info on it that might help.

In this case, since we know they are going to be working on things+getting new equipment installed/etc, at this point I'd think it's probably best to wait until sometime next week to contact them about issues you are having, in case it "clears up" before then.

...My hope is that this new media rack will magically fix the video freeze issue.


Since the Video Freezes were happening with NBC HD as well back to late 2002 or 2003, I wouldn't necessarily count on the new ABC equipment to fix the problem. All I said about it in earlier posts was that I thought it would be interesting to see if there was any change due to the equipment upgrades.

What I think is most important is that they finally seem to be aware of the video freezes now, as well as the much "newer" audio issues, and that Roland said in his message to me they are working on it.

Concerning the video freezes especially, as I've said before, it may be difficult for them to track down whatever is causing the problem and fix it. I wouldn't expect it to get fixed "overnight" or soon. Again, the important thing is they seem to KNOW about the problem(s) now.

I think we are experiencing the "audio issues" in different "ways", and possibly for different "reasons"(although possibly symptoms of the same issue, possibly "different" issues) depending upon our equipment. I'm only getting very short losses of audio, randomly(anyhere between about 5~10 times(or more) per hour or so during ABC HD(and the SD football on Sat) On all my OTA receivers(that includes an internal tuner in a Sony HDTV). Unless this was effecting the Hitatchi sets at earlier times, I think these audio issues just started happening a little over a week or two ago.


Was watching tonight from About 10:20pm~11pm during HD "Invasion"(missed some of the commercials during that time however), and I didn't see any Video Freezes here during that time. I did get about 4 or 5 very short audio drops during that time, and I also noticed the Audio/Video sync was off during a couple of "periods". One time that I noticed a short audio drop, the audio/video came back into proper sync. I also noticed there was also perhaps a bit more time when audio was missing when they switched from net/local (for local commercial breaks), or local to net than has been the case recently --- About the same as occurs from other stations such as WDTN-DT during switching between local/net, but I haven't noticed that so much lately from WKEF-DT. Thought that might be a possible sign that they are working on it.

And I don't understand the least what they are doing? Would they want to have all their ducks in a row before moving to something new?

WKEF likely has little input on when ABC sends the equipment upgrades other than for scheduling purposes, and I'd guess they probably had to do some things be "ready" for the upgrades. Given what a engineer at KXTV(ABC Sacramento, CA) told us early this year, and Since it is taking at least 4 days at WKEF, It sounds like a significant upgrade. Probably Sort of like changing the engine in your Car while your still driving it to work+to lunch. An analogy for the DD 5.1 might be, You need to have the new engine in before you send gas to the carberator/fuel injectors.

See 2nd paragraph in Rory's post at below link for the info from him on the upgrades ABC is doing at all its affiliates :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4935410#post4935410

Concerning the video freezes especially, as I've said before, it may be difficult for them to track down whatever is causing the problem and fix it. I wouldn't expect it to get fixed "overnight" or soon..

Okay, how about we give them two years to fix it??? Oops! Time's up! :p

New to the site, just trying to get up to speed. I uitlize a Hitachi HD Ready TV (53FDX20B) with a DirectTV HD DRV (2 Tuners) with a Channel Master 3021/4228 antenna on the roof. During last nights telecast I had reception problems -- frozen video, no audio, pixalation -- coming out of commercials.

Is this what people are talking about with WKEF/Channel 22
Is this something different.

I am not having any problems with the other locals channels just Channel 22.

I have spend way to much time with adjustments to my antenna -- moving from attic to roof, direction aim changes, etc -- and am a little frustrated.

This is the second DirectTV HD Tuner (first and now a backup turner was a HD w/o DRV) and this also suffered from the Channel 22 Video issues.

Thanks for the information.

I tivoed lost last night so I will check to see if i have the same issues. What is your other directv hd tuner?

my hughes htl-hd did not have those issues and now I have a h10 that I will check against as well - (I have 6 rg6 runs to the ht and a 5*8 multiswitch so I can check a whole lot of recievers at one time... lol)

jim

Jim --

Current DTV HD DVR is the HR10-250 having trouble with ABC/Channel 22 only (at least so far)

Backup DTV HD Receiver is a Hughes Receiver (not the H10) though -- purchased about 2 years ago from Circuit City -- It did have trouble with ABC/Channel 22, just not sure if it was when coming out of commercials as the HR10-250 is experiencing. I am pretty sure it also only had troubles with ABC/22 only.

I do not believe it has anything to do with my cabling/antenna/etc since ABC/22 is the only one causing issues -- after watch "Lost" last night we watched on the DRV -- King of Queens (CBS-HD), Yes Dear (CBS-HD), then House (Fox-HD) without any issues. It appears that ABC/22 switches from non-HD commercials to HD programming and my receiver has a hickup.

Thanks for the help.

Okay, how about we give them two years to fix it??? Oops! Time's up! :p

It's a little hard to fix something you don't know about, other than writing off the reports you've seen from one or two people about it as reception problems on the user end.

What are you going to do if they don't get it fixed soon? Switch to WSYX-DT or WCPO-DT? I don't think that will fix the problem. How long has WHIO-DT had the "blue lines" some folks are getting with certain receivers? How long has WCPO-DT had the "jaggies" ? (The latter we know they've been aware of for about 10 months) ......

How many times have you called them, or via other means gotten through to their engineers to the extent you received a response that at least indicated they were aware of the issue in the past 2 years ...... (or any other issues they've had) ......



During last nights telecast I had reception problems -- frozen video, no audio, pixalation -- coming out of commercials.


I doubt you were experiencing reception problems, They are having problems at the station. As I posted last night, Their Director of engineering emailed me yesterday and said they are currently working on getting a new rack of equipment from ABC installed, and he also said they are working "hard" on their audio/video problems, and he said they are monitoring this thread.

I was only monitoring out of corner of my eye but noticed that as well several times during "Lost" and switching from Net/Local or local/net during commercial breaks. (Was using Zenith HDV420 OTA receiver). Also, as I noted above, during HD "invasion"(which I was monitoring more closely), there seemed to be a little more loss of audio(length wise) during those switches than "normal", although that sort of thing often happens with other stations as well, such as WDTN-DT and in the past has been an issue for just about every station in the area.

Concerning short loss of audio at the very start of local commercial breaks and after they switch back to net after the break is over, It takes some time for the encoder (maybe decoder) to "sync up" to the different audio/video sources when they do the switching. This sort of thing has been discussed in length on AVSforum in the past in other areas. It may take a while, but this sort of thing will get better as time goes on and the networks improve their HD distribution(and how they send the HD feed to station), and stations upgrade their equipment.


I do not believe it has anything to do with my cabling/antenna/etc


You are correct. Reception problems won't just occur when stations go into or come out of commercials. As I said before, If you are having issues which you know are not on your end(or are only happening on certian hardware+can be detirmined that aren't reception issues, and don't occur with other stations) it's probably best to Contact the engineers at the station and report what you are seeing/ask them about it. At this point probably best to wait until after they do the upgrades and have had time to work the kinks out. In other words wait a week or two, and if you are still experiencing these issues then contact them and tell them about it.


-----------------------------

All, Contact info(Phone #/Address) for WKEF is here :

http://www.wkef22.com/dayton_oh/station/index.shtml

I'd call them, and this hasn't worked well in the past(at least for me) but you can also try their "feedback" forum on their website, which is here : (If you don't get a response that is not "automated", don't assume anyone at the station has read your email via feedback forum, or that it didn't just go into the "spam bucket) :

http://www.wkef22.com/dayton_oh/station/contact_departments.shtml

What are you going to do if they don't get it fixed soon? Switch to WSYX-DT or WCPO-DT? (The latter we know they've been aware of for about 10 months) ......

I would suggest "moving" to the NYC DMA.... :p

I would suggest "moving" to the NYC DMA.... :p

No thanks.

Imagine your surprise when you find out WABC-DT has had it's problems(including reported video freezes via DNS at one point) as well ....

Hopefully in a few years after the analogs shut off we'll be able to look back at a lot of this stuff and laugh.

i just watched lost on the hd tivo and I did have breakups when wkef came back from break - the video would break up and the sound would pop - for about 3-5 seconds. Other than that no problems

It's a little hard to fix something you don't know about, other than writing off the reports you've seen from one or two people about it as reception problems on the user end.

What are you going to do if they don't get it fixed soon? Switch to WSYX-DT or WCPO-DT? I don't think that will fix the problem. How long has WHIO-DT had the "blue lines" some folks are getting with certain receivers? How long has WCPO-DT had the "jaggies" ? (The latter we know they've been aware of for about 10 months) ......

Oh Geez, settle down. That was a very tongue-in-cheek statement. But since you bring up WSYX-DT, yes, that is an option for me. I guess when I run out of options, that's when I'll get upset enough to make more calls.

Regarding WHIO's blue lines, I've got two receivers that I see it with; one of them is the same receiver you're using. Perhaps it has something to do with screen size on whether you can see it or not. They really aren't a problem as they're razor thin and only visible in dark scenes.

Oh Geez, settle down. That was a very tongue-in-cheek statement. But since you bring up WSYX-DT, yes, that is an option for me. I guess when I run out of options, that's when I'll get upset enough to make more calls.


You misunderstand. There is no reason to get upset about it. That doesn't help anything, just as coming here and complaining about this or that generally doesn't help anything either. All I'm saying is, it's no big deal to call them and report what you are seeing. I've done it MANY times with both Cincinnati+Dayton stations even though I can receive both of them, as I know I'm not the only one out here watching. I've even called Dayton stations to ask them to flip the switch for HD before even though I can flip to cincinnati. Many times, they don't know about issues if people don't call, especially when only certian receivers are effected. Remember the dropped frames issue effecting the Zenith HDV420 and a couple of other receivers? How do you think they found out about that?

I don't understand why some folks seem to have such an issue concerning contacting them. I've cut down on it, as I think it often isn't helpful if I'm the only one(along with a couple of others) that are allways contacting them.



Perhaps it has something to do with screen size on whether you can see it or not.

I'm pretty sure that's not it.

Flipped to my recording of Alias -- SD for the first half, at least(ff'd through it to see how long it was SD)....Night Stalker seemed to be in HD though.

5.1 is coming through on WKEF, but.....I'm not getting anything in the rear surround speakers -- must be the program(sitcom), but i didn't get anything in the rears during the theme song either. Hmm...

EDIT -

Actually, it's only coming through left and right....nothing through the center channel, sub and rears.


Also, received a message from WKEF that the reason they lost the HD feed on Alias for 95% of the program because their IRDs had locked up and the person that was monitoring the signal was out to lunch and got back and rebooted after most of the show was over.

And...

All the email that we sent through the form on their site was getting sent to newscentral directly..This issue has been corrected and the wkef engineers will be seeing our email from now on.

just flipped to wkef during 20/20 - non hd, but the 5.1 indicator is lit up with static coming out of the rear surrounds

Same thing here Jim. It's been that way all evening for me.

Hope and Faith is the only scripted programming that ABC had tonight...the other two programs were reality tv(supernanny) and news magazine(20/20), neither of which are produced in HD.

Seems that WKEF must be so excited about their new digital media rack that they decided to leave 5.1 on ALL the time.

It looks like they're picking up ABC's 2.0 stream(at least during Hope and Faith) and piping it through as 5.1 to us, and as a result, center, sub, rears are inactive. They need to tweak it so they pick up abc's 5.1 feed during scripted/HD programming.

Whenever local commercials came on(obnoxious car dealership ads) there was some serious static in the rears.

Oh, and my mits tuner is still experiencing periodic dropouts, so no, the media rack didn't fix the other issues. I would bet that namx is still seeing the same thing on his hitachi tuner, rendering the channel unwatchable.

I think we can actually use the email form on their site to give them some feedback this time..It should reach the engineers.

For the past couple of weeks on my RCA DTC100, WKEF Dayton abc 22 tunes in fine OTA then the pic goes to black n white after about a minute. Changing the channel, or turning off the unit, or if the signal drops and comes back, it's back to color then a minute later black n white. I don't see this prob on any other stations. Anyone else with a DTC experience this?

dfas34,

Interesting ... Sorry to say I don't have a DTC-100 anymore. I had the internal version of it(RCA's DM-1 module specifically) in a RCA F38310 HDTV, which was unfortunetly carted away in July by CC via their extended warranty(and replaced with a Sony KD-34XBR960) when their repair shop couldn't "fix" a problem with DM-1's power supply module(after almost 3 months of trying) .... The Sony is a nice set for sure, but I miss the ol' RCA, especially its 38" 16x9 Tube, and the two antenna inputs on the DTC ...

If I did still have it, I'd venture a guess that what you are seeing would probably be happening with it as well, at least if we were using the same firmware. I had 4.37 I think it was, and when I did have it, don't recall any problem issues with WKEF-DT with it other than the video freezes .....

audio on wkef is messed up right now -- 2.0(should be 5.1 -- this is scripted programming) but it is very low and the dialogue isn't clear. Also goes out of sync at times.

It looks like they're picking up ABC's 2.0 stream(at least during Hope and Faith) and piping it through as 5.1 to us, and as a result, center, sub, rears are inactive. They need to tweak it so they pick up abc's 5.1 feed during scripted/HD programming.


It's a little different tonight for HD "Invasion" tonight, up to this point (8:08PM) ...

They're currently sending DD 2.0 stream, but sounds like they're using DD 5.1 feed from ABC. Much of the audio (including dialog) is completely missing.

No Video freezes or other problems so far here other than a couple of short audio "pops", but its only been 8 minutes ....

I would bet that namx is still seeing the same thing on his hitachi tuner, rendering the channel unwatchable.


You're betting correctly, my friend. WKEF is still having this cyclic-every-7-seconds audio dropouts on my Hitachi tuner. No offense to anyone here but I only watch LOST and sometimes MNF. I was able to get a copy of the LOST season opener from a friend of mine. So I'm not going to waste anymore time with WKEF or watching any of their broadcast until they fix this problem.

dfas34,

Interesting ... Sorry to say I don't have a DTC-100 anymore. I had the internal version of it(RCA's DM-1 module specifically) in a RCA F38310 HDTV, which was unfortunetly carted away in July by CC via their extended warranty(and replaced with a Sony KD-34XBR960) when their repair shop couldn't "fix" a problem with DM-1's power supply module(after almost 3 months of trying) .... The Sony is a nice set for sure, but I miss the ol' RCA, especially its 38" 16x9 Tube, and the two antenna inputs on the DTC ...

If I did still have it, I'd venture a guess that what you are seeing would probably be happening with it as well, at least if we were using the same firmware. I had 4.37 I think it was, and when I did have it, don't recall any problem issues with WKEF-DT with it other than the video freezes .....

I'd hate to see the DTC go. It's been a good unit, especially with its VCR control. Other than finding another one, I don't see a cost effective alternative right now. If only DVD recorders were available with ATSC tuners I'd get one, but, they're still stuck in the analog world. Guess I'll have to weigh my options. Speaking of weighing, exactly how much did that 38" widescreen tube weigh??? Never heard of a tube that size.

I'd hate to see the DTC go. It's been a good unit, especially with its VCR control. Other than finding another one, I don't see a cost effective alternative right now. If only DVD recorders were available with ATSC tuners I'd get one, but, they're still stuck in the analog world.Speaking of weighing, exactly how much did that 38" widescreen tube weigh??? Never heard of a tube that size.

Yes, I even wish My S-VHS VCR's had ATSC tuners in them. I don't remember the model #, and I could be mistaken, and I think it might be discontinued now, but I had thought LG had a combo ATSC receiver/DVD recorder at one time .... In fact, I thought I had seen an open box one at CC by Dayton mall earlier this summer -- I just looked at it real quick though, it might have been ATSC+DVR ... ...

For recording from DTV/HD sources to S-VHS VCR, no "vcr control" but, I use Zenith HDV420's "squeeze mode"(some, ATSC receivers let you do this), 480i output and S-video out to record 16x9 NTSC video to S-VHS from HD OTA sources, and then "stretch it" back out to proper AR with display. Same way "anamorphic" widescreen DVD's work, and S-VHS is close to DVD quality. It's a "stop gap" solution, but I find it sufficent for recordings - That should work for DVD recorder as well. At times, wish I had a D-VHS deck, but I wasn't too sure about spending so much on one of those, with D-VHS perhaps soon becoming about as useful as old betamax tapes and a 20 year old beta VCR that no longer works ... Whatever I end up with HD recording wise someday, it's gotta do removable media ... DVR just won't work for me ....

On the weight .... 254 lbs(that's the whole set, not just the tube). It was used in the 38310, and a Loewe's set, the "aconda". Both are discontinued now of course, and Loewe's pulled out of U.S. market completely earlier this year. There was a 40" Sony 4x3 XBR at one time (it was well over 300lbs IF I recall correctly), but I think the RCA tube was the largest 16x9 CRT ever made, and probably that ever will be made. Big as you can go with 16x9 Direct View CRT is 34" now - Not saying that's much lighter, my Sony XBR960 weighs 192 lbs, but it's not like it needs to get up and go anywhere anytime soon .....

At lunchtime, I notice WKEF-DT seems to be working on things. At times They're running ABC HD test loop(Clips of 98 Glenn HD shuttle Launch, Monsters, Inc/etc, HD Scenes in NYC(prior to 9/11)) and sounds like various audio tests.

At lunchtime, I notice WKEF-DT seems to be working on things. At times They're running ABC HD test loop(Clips of 98 Glenn HD shuttle Launch, Monsters, Inc/etc, HD Scenes in NYC(prior to 9/11)) and sounds like various audio tests.

thanks for the update

last night was rough for abc in hd in the cincinnati dayton area - desparate housewives was hd with only l/r audio - no center channel - then greys anatomy was sd with audio - at least they are trying to fix it which is more than we can say for wcpo

thanks for the update

It was hard to tell whether they were making any progress, Though. They were often switching from different program sources, at times they'd have the ABC HD test loop video+Audio up, at times just the audio from the ABC test loop with the upconvert from WKEF programming for video/etc. . But, The audio was for the most part still a mess throughout(bunch of noise/etc) and the video was at times as well. At times they were sending a DD 2.0 stream and at times DD 5.1, I wasn't able to tell if any of the center channel or surround/LFE tracks were making it through but for the most part it didn't seem like it. Right now(1:05pm), the video is still a mess during an ABC soap -- It's going from B&W to "pink" to normal color, and just got a couple of audio drops ...

So, I hope(and assume they are) they're still working on it ....

last night was rough for abc in hd in the cincinnati dayton area - desparate housewives was hd with only l/r audio - no center channel - then greys anatomy was sd with audio - at least they are trying to fix it which is more than we can say for wcpo

it's been like that since saturday

I expect a lot more folks to post about audio issues(which there probably will be..wkef doesn't seem to know what the problem is), since there's a football game tonight.

last night was rough for abc in hd in the cincinnati dayton area


Yeah, it's really been pretty rough for a couple of weeks now from WKEF-DT(at least with most decoders it seems), and hasn't been completely "smooth" for ABC since WCPO jaggies started and WDTN-DT switched from ABC to NBC late last summer ....


- desparate housewives was hd with only l/r audio - no center channel - then greys anatomy was sd with audio - at least they are trying to fix it which is more than we can say for wcpo

Yeah. As rakesh just mentioned, Same thing sat night as I mentioned farther above. WKEF must have "noticed"(or someone called them) the audio problem last night. I noticed, evidently to "fix it", they switched to ABC SD feed around 9:40pm or a little earlier.

BTW, I called WKEF-DT's CE on Saturday night and discussed the Audio issues/video freezes/etc. a bit with him ..... You are right, I think they are trying their best to get things straightened out, which is good.

last night was rough for abc in hd in the cincinnati dayton area - desparate housewives was hd with only l/r audio - no center channel - then greys anatomy was sd with audio - at least they are trying to fix it which is more than we can say for wcpo

So when i bring up DH on the DVR tonight is my wife gonna bitch about it, or is it tolerable (definition - i can understand what's going on, or i can crank up the volume and still hear)

So when i bring up DH on the DVR tonight is my wife gonna bitch about it, or is it tolerable (definition - i can understand what's going on, or i can crank up the volume and still hear)

There is no dialogue for about 40 minutes, and then it switches to SD, at which point you get 2.0 sound.

It was hard to tell whether they were making any progress, Though. They were often switching from different program sources, at times they'd have the ABC HD test loop video+Audio up, at times just the audio from the ABC test loop with the upconvert from WKEF programming for video/etc. . But, The audio was for the most part still a mess throughout(bunch of noise/etc) and the video was at times as well. At times they were sending a DD 2.0 stream and at times DD 5.1, I wasn't able to tell if any of the center channel or surround/LFE tracks were making it through but for the most part it didn't seem like it. Right now(1:05pm), the video is still a mess during an ABC soap -- It's going from B&W to "pink" to normal color, and just got a couple of audio drops ...

So, I hope(and assume they are) they're still working on it ....

A bit of an update to the above ... I mangaged to record some of it to SVHS -- Just played it back, and at one point, during the audio tests I heard the parts of it where announcer was saying "center channel audio", "L surround", "R Surround", but it was also full of noise. I don't know if WKEF-DT was sending a DD 5.1 stream at that time, if they were, it would have been "downconverted" by STB to analog 2 channel audio then out to the VCR.

I didn't record this part, and I was making and eating lunch at the time+was in and out of room and didn't catch if the "center channel/L surround/R surround part came through, but I noticed later on that they were running the audio tests from the ABC HD loop with little or no "extra" noise occuring.

I guess we'll see what happens tonight for MNF HD.

There is no dialogue for about 40 minutes... Was that OTA or via TW ?? We had it recording and my wife started watching it but there was audio, then no audio for "x" seconds -- not a quick dropout, but more like 5, 10, 15 seconds of NO audio, then audio again. This is from TWC, by the way, not OTA.

before that all you get is the music out of the left and right channels.. yep.. shes gonna bitch :) - and of course it is your fault too.. lol

So when i bring up DH on the DVR tonight is my wife gonna bitch about it, or is it tolerable (definition - i can understand what's going on, or i can crank up the volume and still hear) I suggest you search the internet for uhhh, a "replacement" DH. :D

We had it recording and my wife started watching it but there was audio, then no audio for "x" seconds -- not a quick dropout, but more like 5, 10, 15 seconds of NO audio, then audio again. This is from TWC,

Not including the audio dropout, Are you saying you had dialogue for most of first 40 minutes of DH or not?

Update: I didn't pay much attention to any audio drops, but there WERE times when there was NO audio because there was no audio from L+R Front channels from the production itself.

As for TW vs. OTA, it shouldn't matter. The datastreams are the SAME, and come out of equipment at WKEF-DT. If it's different, it's because of a decoder specific issue, or becuase the cableco is using a different source(not likely).

I suggest you search the internet for uhhh, a "replacement" DH. :D

Had to resort to that for last weeks Criminal Minds, after my DVR only got 1 minute of it.

I will double-check with my wife, but I'm positive there was audio for brief periods and then dead silence for "too long". By too long, I mean that there was no point in watching it since you'd miss too much info. I know people have encountered different issues, with some watching OTA and others watching it on TW, so I thought to ask...

there are so many sites out there with ********** downloads of xvid hdtv versions of any show you can think of.. really comes in handy when pared with an htpc :)

I suggest you search the internet for uhhh, a "replacement" DH. :D

but I'm positive there was audio for brief periods and then dead silence for "too long". By too long, I mean that there was no point in watching it since you'd miss too much info.

There may have been periods of No audio whatsoever, and I certianly didn't monitor the entire hour, but for the most part There was audio throughout the program from DD 5.1 L+R front channels ONLY, problem was, until they switched from the ABC HD/DD 5.1 audio feed to ABC SD feed(with 2 channel audio), there was no center channel, or surround audio, only L+R front channel audio. MOST of the dialogue is from center channel.

That's what I want to know, IF you were getting the center channel audio(MOST of the dialogue), not whether or not there was "audio".

Same thing happened Saturday night, at times WKEF-DT was sending a DD 2.0 stream from the station, at times they were sending a DD 5.1 stream, but they were using the DD 5.1 audio feed(when available) from ABC during ABC HD programming rather than the ABC DD 2.0 audio stream, if they still send both as they used to rather than requiring a "downconversion" at the station to DD 2.0 for affiliates not equipped to pass trhough DD 5.1.


I know people have encountered different issues, with some watching OTA and others watching it on TW, so I thought to ask...
Today 02:29 PM


Well, TW can have problems, stations can have problems, and many things can happen. Such, as on a couple of occasions during 2004~05 football season when somehow TW was sending an SD feed from WRGT or Fox over the TW digital channel for WRGT-DT/Fox HD, and OTA viewers were getting HD from WRGT-DT ....

But, the point I was making is TW(and TW viewers) get the same datastreams(including audio) from WKEF-DT as OTA viewers do. While I suppose it's possible for stations to use seperate encoders/etc for a TW feed via fiber than they do OTA, they aren't doing so. There's no reason for them to spend the 5 or 6 figures necessary to do that, not to mention the "switching" and implementation difficulties involved.

UNLESS TW is using a different source than WKEF-DT(which certianly shouldn't be occuring), The only things that should be different OTA vs. TW Cable as long as WKEF-DT's datastreams are being used by TW, are is if certian models of the users MPEG2/AC-3 audio (DD) decoders(in your STB's or internal receiver - whether they be for OTA or QAM via cable, including boxes supplied by TW) are having issues with WKEF's video or audio encoding, OR if OTA viewers are experiencing reception difficulties, or TW viewers are having reception difficulties due to a less than adequete signal via the "wire", signal ingress/leaky cable lines/etc.

The only other thing I could think of would be if, during the process of modulating the datastreams from WKEF-DT "into" a QAM signal, if TW is decoding/re-encoding and altering the audio stream somehow so that center channel audio WAS there last night via TW for some odd reason with the decoder they were using for that process before reencoding takes place. I can't imagine why they'd be doing that, though(a decoding/re-encoding process at all), and I suspect that the audio for the center channel+L+R surrounds just "wasn't there" from WKEF's datastream. I don't even think the current rules allow them to "strip" PSIP data the stations are sending, although it seems like they might be doing so in many cases, and the rules certianly say they are not allowed to "downrez" or degrade the quality of the video/audio the stations are sending(not to say that isn't going on in some cases as well).

If it's a reception issue, BOTH audio/Video is effected, simultanously(except perhaps when a slight glitch causes a bit of on screen data corruption on parts of the screen given a very marginal signal, but no detectable loss of audio), because the OTA RF 8VSB(I haven't looked into this for QAM but assume it's much the same) signal OTA(which is actually a analog waveform) it Only CARRIES the digital information/datastreams that contain the MPEG2 video/AC-3 audio/PSIP or any other data for that matter ---- you can't "seperate" the audio/video streams when there is a reception dropout due to multipath or interference, or less than adequete SNR, both audio+video are effected. It certianly wouldn't be the case that a OTA or TW "reception" issue or would cause only the center+surround audio to be missing.

In any case, that's why it would be interesting to know if it were the case in fact that some viewers (whether it be via TW with certian decoders or via OTA with certian decoders) WERE actually getting audio from center channel and L/R surround audio last night. The L+R front channel audio was certianly there, and there was certianly "dead silence" for long periods, such as when there was no music, or other "sounds" from the production itself from the L+R channel audio(you just saw the people's lips moving/etc) so telling us the "audio was there" is not quite enough information.

There was no audio from the center channel(as pointed out above, almost all the shows that do dd 5.1 reserve dialogue for the center channel) but L+R front channels were coming through. You may have experienced some silence at points where these channels were not being used i.e. there was just dialogue and no background music on the show(this is usually in the L+R channels.

This was on Time Warner and I saw the same thing OTA(in addition to the 7 second audio dropout).

As for a ********** suggestion, it's kind of lame because the downconverted xvids are less than 1 mbps bitrate and downrezzed to 640 x whatever. When you play it via HTPC on a big screen tv, it looks HORRIBLE. You can see artifacts all over the place, plus the picture is incredibly soft. The one thing you can do(if you care that much about a show) is download the "HR HDTV" versions which have 5.1 sound and demux the audio from that and try to sync it up with your DVR recording. It's a pain in the rear, but you still get high quality full bitrate video.

Funny story with Alias last week -- d/led an HR HDTV version which has 5.1 sound, and what do you know, same problem as WKEF! ...whichever affiliate that was capped from was sending a 5.1 stream, but was picking up abc's dd 2.0 feed. Pretty sad..

I'm getting all kinds of audio pops and short audio drops from WHIO-DT during upconverted SD programming(local news/etc) this afternoon/evening .... I haven't been watching them very often but remember this being a problem for them a while back, so don't know if it's something that's "still there" or that was fixed and is now "back" ...

As for a ********** suggestion, it's kind of lame because the downconverted xvids are less than 1 mbps bitrate and downrezzed to 640 x whatever. When you play it via HTPC on a big screen tv, it looks HORRIBLE. You can see artifacts all over the place, plus the picture is incredibly soft.

It looks fine on my laptop, and I don't miss the show so I'm happy. Who cares about the quality as long as you can watch the show if something goes wrong on the DVR or local feed.

If you really like a TV show and they show things in series, I'd rather see a piss-poor version of something vs nothing. I "had" to do this last year with a CSI:Miami episode and I was shocked at how GOOD it looked. It was honestly DVD quality. I did it with another episode this year though and it was disappointing. Then again, it was better than nothing.

As for Desperate Housewives, I'll clarify. I re-watched the first few minutes and apparently the voice-over (I think it's the voice of the dead lady) must be done in the L/R channels. The background music, the dun-dun, dun-dun, dun-dun-dun-dun, is also L/R. When a character spoke though, the music faded to almost nothing, and I heard NO voices (center channel). Then it came back with the background music and voiceover and so on. This is why I was positive I had audio for a while, then nothing, then audio again. I was right :D

Well, I'm getting the Audio pops from WHIO-DT during HD so far tonight as well.

If you really like a TV show and they show things in series, I'd rather see a piss-poor version of something vs nothing.


I agree to a certian extent, except for the most part that there really aren't any "new" TV shows around any more I care that much about. It's also pretty difficult for me to enjoy something as much in SD if you are used to seeing it HD. And certian problems, like WCPO-DT's "Jaggies" are just too annoying for me to be able to watch it. OTOH, I'd be able to stand a snowy analog OTA signal from 100 miles away if I REALLY wanted to watch something.

I realize however it's difficult for folks to understand that if they aren't HD viewers.

But, it's certianly hard to watch something if there ain't no dialog from the actors :)


This is why I was positive I had audio for a while, then nothing, then audio again. I was right


And the point you were trying to make in response to Rakesh's comment concerning there being no dialog/center channel audio for 1st 40 minutes(before they switched to SD feed), concerning there being audio and TW vs. OTA/etc was what again exactly ? ;)

Well, I'm getting the Audio pops from WHIO-DT during HD so far tonight as well.


I got audio pops on WHIO-DT during King of Queens on both OTA and Cable (when did this start? First time i've ever seen it happen). Guess I'll be watching 2 1/2 men in SD.

It's also pretty difficult for me to enjoy something as much in SD if you are used to seeing it HD.

ding ding ding!

we have a winner!

btw, i'm watching abc..and the audio to my receiver dies every few minutes..i have to change channel and then come back to wkef to get the audio back..

watching TWC..as usual

Flipped over to WHIO OTA to see what was going on.. The audio is popping like it does on WKEF.

Oh crap -- now the audio is popping on WKEF....forget MNF, even in 2.0

Complete freeze/lockup on WKEF... ouch.

Noticed WKEF-DT switched to ABC SD by the time I first tuned in to MNF ... WCPO-DT full of jaggies, WSYX-DT barely moving the meter tonight ..... No big deal for me since it isn't the Bengals or steelers, I'll just do something else ....

I got audio pops on WHIO-DT during King of Queens on both OTA and Cable (when did this start? First time i've ever seen it happen). Guess I'll be watching 2 1/2 men in SD.

Well, along with extra LOUD audio levels, it was happening quite a bit when they first started providing DD 5.1 earlier this year or late last year. It ain't CBS, BTW as it's happening on WHIO upconverted SD local/syndicated programming, and it ain't happening from WKRC-DT(which does DD 2.0 from CBS only currently BTW).

Geez, what's the odds of WHIO and WKEF having audio issues at the same time ?? King of Queens was annoying as h*ll to try and watch....

I flipped over to MNF for a couple of minutes and they were flipping back and forth between SD and HD.

WKEF need to bring in a consultant or something and get this sorted out. Disaster is an understatement...I was thinking more along the lines of debacle.

Well, I've been watching HD from Cincinnati+Dayton stations since Fall 2001(WHIO DT was the only Dayton digital station on air at that time, they came up in sept or oct 2001), and I'd be afraid to say I've seen everything that can go wrong as I'd be afraid I'd Jinx it and make things worse, but it certianly seems that has been the case ...

You know Murphy's law, and I think stations can pretty much PLAN on that murphy guy being a problem if they don't Plan for him being around .....

Also, it doesn't matter HOW they find a way to do it, but IMO, I could understand 4 years ago when maybe there were 7 or 8 of us watching, but I think by now they really need to find a way to properly monitor both the audio AND video from their DTV stations.

It's just that over the past couple of years or so, "generally speaking" (except for WKEF's long standing video freezes issues for instance) things have generally seemed to improve, and problems have generally been fewer and farther between, or fixed relatively quickly ... I don't know how much of that is just "luck", or how much of it is that stations are actually paying attention to their DTV station ... While common sense wisdom might suggest the latter, I dunno, especially those of us whom have been here since this thread was started in 2002 have seen some pretty "weird" stuff happen.

Anyway The last "other" big problem which went on for weeks and weeks I can remember occuring in Dayton was WBDT-DT's PSIP issue that was only effecting SOME OTA decoders Spring 2005.

Well, I joined the club of those annoyed enough to call WKEF last night. Called the main number which auto-answered with "NBC 22" even though they've been ABC for Quite Some Time Now. That alone should tell us something. :-)

The news desk politely confirmed that the control room was aware of the fact that MNF was not being sent in HD, and that they were working on the problem. Oh well, the more people calling the better I suppose.

I was flipping through an noticed the audio popping on WHIO as well (through TWC). Luckily I never watch anything but the NFL on CBS, so hopefully they'll have this audio issue worked out in the near future.

As far as WKEF goes... I'll leave it at that before I say something I regret later... :)

no HD tonight either..has anyone heard back regarding when they might be passing HD again?

it's pretty annoying, to say the least.

.

Looks like we're back in business on WKEF..George Lopez is in HD right now, but 2.0 sound.

I hope they can get 5.1 setup *properly* soon... otherwise was there a point to the media rack?

I still get the audio drops, however. WKEF, are you listening? I refused to watch LOST again.

otherwise was there a point to the media rack?

The point was equipment upgrades from ABC which I believe ABC is doing at all its affiliates on a rollout schedule that began on West Coast early this year+I think they are working their way East.

I don't know what all equipment was involved, or the specifics involved but I believe it was primarily new equipment(Sat recveiver's/decoders or "IRD's"/etc) from ABC for receiving/decoding digital feeds off the sat from ABC, including HD feed and the SD feed used by the analog stations.

Again, for more info on the ABC upgrades see 2nd paragraph of following post earlier this year from a engineer at a ABC affiliate in CA :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4929714&&#post4929714

It doesn't sound like the HD(or DD2.0/DD 5.1 streams) feed itself from ABC has "changed" to any great degree(at least currently, and if stations with the "old" equipment are using the same feed as stations with the "new" equipment) but I'm not sure.

In other words, after receiving/decompressing/decoding the ABC HD feed from the Sat by the "new"(or old) ABC supplied equipment, WKEF still has to have their own equipment for encoding/compressing and sync'ing/multiplexing the seperate MPEG2 Video/AC-3(DD 2.0 or DD 5.1) audio(and PSIP stream) into a ATSC transport stream(max data payload 19.34mb/s) for broadcast.

IF I recall correctly, ABC uses something like 45Mb/s compressed(proprietary compression I believe) stream for HD video via the sat, after decompression/decoding at the affiliate, it's probably HD-SDI video(about 1.2Gb/s uncompressed) that is output before being reencoded(along with audio/PSIP) with the stations equipment+MUX into ATSC transport stream(19.34Mb/s Max).

All this decoding/reencoding and "sync'ing" and multplexing into a ATSC transport stream is a quite complex thing that must take place at the affiliate for ABC, CBS, and I think NBC affiliates as well. I'm not sure how WB or UPN does it, unless something has changed PBS is somewhat similar to Fox to some extent, although PBS stations around here I think do a decode/reencode process with their own encoders ---- with Fox there IS no decoding/uncompressing+reencoding+"sync" process at the affiliate for the fox programming ... The splicer at the affiliate simply "splices in" the network encoded ATSC compliant stream(and ads the local "Fox45" bug on Lower right of 16x9 area during most programming in WRGT's case) with the DD 5.1 audio/MPEG2 video into the local transport stream. I'd read Fox "recommends" stations set it up so switching to the splicer "chases" the analog's master control, so when they switch to "Net" for the analog station, the digital station switches to the Splicer(which will either have HD, Fox Widescreen or 4x3 SD Fox programming upconverted to 720p at network level). So, the result is Fox Audio/Video is encoded at the network and isn't decoded again until it reaches OUR decoders. The station however has to have a upconverter/MPEG2 encoder capable of 720p for the local/syndicated programming -- the station doesn't have to have DD 5.1 audio capabilities however in order to pass through DD 5.1 from fox(unlike the case with ABC, CBS/NBC).


I hope they can get 5.1 setup *properly* soon...


I believe WKEF-DT had planned their DD 5.1 upgrade earlier this year(In early May they had told me they were going to try to have DD 5.1 up in a couple of weeks), but I would guess they decided to postpone trying their DD 5.1 upgrade until after the ABC equipment upgrades. Obviously, they've ran into some problems with their DD 5.1 upgrade.

DD 5.1 is nice(if it's working) however, personally I'd just as soon they get their other problems(video freezes/audio dropouts) straightened out first. At least the DD 2.0 audio "mostly" works(at least here, or at least it has in the past) -- and again, although Discrete 5.1 channel surround is nice : Personally I find DD 2.0 with Pro Logic 2 decoding for matrixed surround quite sufficent. I suppose it might depend upon the digital audio decoder in your receiver, however.

I still get the audio drops, however. WKEF, are you listening? I refused to watch LOST again.

audio drops still present on my mits tuner also..

Time Warner box kept losing sync at times, as well as dropping audio completely(had to change channel and come back to abc to get it back)

so we're back to square one

The "Orientation" Film during Lost was certiantly "sort of" like watching WKEF-DT ;)

During Lost Still got a few Video freezes(one was during a national commercial, the other ones were nowhere near a commercial - I'd switched away during one comemrcial break, and when I came back the transistion from a local spot to Net wasn't very smooth, though), and noticed about 5 or 6 very short audio drops.(generally a "syallable" or so of spoken dialogue or less was lost for each audio drop).

So, even though some of you seem to be having more prevalent "decoder specific" issues, I'd bet that most of us are seeing different "symptoms" of the same encoding problems.

Was watching E-Ring on WDTN-DT at 8, but flipped over to Lopez on WKEF-DT a couple of times and didn't see any probems + thought maybe we'd be OK ... Oh well, it's not the first time that's happened and probably won't be the last ...

I thought HD PQ for E-Ring was excellent for the most part BTW, except that too high MPEG2 compression ratio(I'd guess because of too low "maximum" available bandwidth to the HD service from WDTN-DT, presumably because of the multicast sub) was a problem when there was a lot of camera movement/lots of action/etc. WLWT-DT not any better with their Multicast SD of "weatherplus" ... It really sucks, as WLWT-DT used to allways look excellent before they added WeatherPlus, If I still had that choice, I'd take the improved PQ and DD 2.0 over DD 5.1 anyday ....

WKEF-DT just went off air at 12:04am(10/6) ... I wonder what TW viewers are seeing from WKEF-DT right now?

I guess their engineers are doing a little "late night work" ..... Fingers crossed ....

Update: WRGT-DT and WRGT analog are off air currently as well (WKEF 22 still up) ...

12:30am Update #2: Noticed WBDT 26+WBDT-DT 18 are off air now as well (26 was up last time I looked) ...

I hope they're just doing "normal maintenance" or there's been a power outage, as all 5 of those transmit from same tower(the one with crossmember and 3 masts on Top) ... WKEF 22 analog is on a different stick .... Otherwise, hope the tower or transmitter shack is still there ....

OK, so the Cablecard has been up and running for a couple weeks now. Same problems with freezes and audio dropouts as everyone else (can throw that in the infobase, for those who were looking for more possible combinations and permutations of tuners and so forth).

Anyone know if NHL Center Ice can be configured to be used with a Cablecard vice the set-top box? All the digital tier channels show up in my tuner (including what would be NHL Center Ice), they're all dark, as I have the Rakesh.S package. Would it be a matter of ordering it ($1.95 for the Sports Tier and then buying the package), and then hitting the Cablecard to wake up the dark channels?

Help, always appreciated.

BTW, any further word on when/if DTN will come up on the HDTV Tier? Considering it took an Act of God to get them off 2 and on 9 a few years back, I'm not holding my breath.

C'ya
Cran

BTW, any further word on when/if DTN will come up on the HDTV Tier? Considering it took an Act of God to get them off 2 and on 9 a few years back, I'm not holding my breath. The information I got from TW -- not a phone rep -- was that the local president of TW-WOH was personally negotiating with WDTN about getting their -DT station on TW. When WOH and Cincy merged, that president left so the talks stopped.

WDTN is owned by Sinclair and Sinclair doesn't have the best reputation around these parts (AVS) especially in regards to cablecos carrying their -DT stations. There's obviously a corporate directive controlling this situation but is it still left up to the local management to work out a deal ?? Then is that deal still req'd to be approved by corporate ??

As you said, you're not holding your breathe. That's a good idea. :)

WDTN is owned by Sinclair and Sinclair doesn't have the best reputation around these parts (AVS) especially in regards to cablecos carrying their -DT stations. There's obviously a corporate directive controlling this situation but is it still left up to the local management to work out a deal ?? Then is that deal still req'd to be approved by corporate ??

WDTN is owned by LIN television now. I don't recall them ever being owned by Sinclair. LIN is either based in Buffalo or Indianapolis, I'm not sure which (both are major hubs for them that they centralcast several stations' master control operations from).

Sinclair owns WKEF and operates WRGT under a management agreement.

... otherwise was there a point to the media rack?

The point was equipment upgrades from ABC...


...I think it was a rhetorical question... :eek:

Noticed all the Dayton stations are back on air this morning.

LIN is either based in Buffalo or Indianapolis, I'm not sure which (both are major hubs for them that they centralcast several stations' master control operations from).


WDTN is controlled from LIN Master control facilities in Indy located at WISH-TV. So is WWHO now I believe. I'm not sure where LIN "offices" are either.

When they first started controlling it from Indy, WDTN's CE had given me the Phone number to the MCO for WDTN in Indy and their Tech's phone number in Dayton to call if they had problems/missed the HD feed/etc. Sorry, he asked me not to pass those #'s along. I haven't used them in a long time, for the most part there's been no reason to.

The transfer Of WDTN to LIN occured not long before WDTN-DT came on air(Early 2003). I can't recall who owned WDTN before LIN -- Grey maybe?


Sinclair owns WKEF and operates WRGT under a management agreement.


WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT are the only Sinclair owned or operated stations I know of that are carried on TW cable. I wonder how long that is going to last, or if Sinclair will change their "posisition" concerning cable carriage of their digital/HD stations anytime soon. Surely there must be more TW systems that carry Sinclair owned affiliates, but Not in Columbus or Cincinnati.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo Tolstoy
The point was equipment upgrades from ABC...


...I think it was a rhetorical question...


Very cute. I'm not a mind reader.

Thought some folks might think the WKEF upgrades for DD 5.1 were synonomous with the upgraded equipment from ABC. I was just pointing out that wasn't the case and some of the details involved. There is no requirement that you read it.

Any word on whether FSN-Ohio or FSN-Cincinnati will be broadcasting in HD anytime soon? According to a post on the programming forum, FSN will be adding additional regional productions in HD. Hopefully those plans include broadcasts within the A-10 network for Flyers games.

Any word on whether FSN-Ohio or FSN-Cincinnati will be broadcasting in HD anytime soon? According to a post on the programming forum, FSN will be adding additional regional productions in HD. Hopefully those plans include broadcasts within the A-10 network for Flyers games.

I don't think FSN actually produces the A10 network games. They just pick them up and show them on TV, similar to the ESPN+ games that get picked up and shown by local stations.

Proper DD 5.1 for HD Alias on WKEF-DT tonight! Yahoo!

Just a couple of VERY short audio drops so far(fraction of a fraction of a second), and for about 1/2 a second at one pont there was a "sort of" video freeze -- different than usual, with only a few missing frames - Audio continued throughout on Internal tuner in Sony KD-34XBR960.

5.1's up..yep

The consultant must've come in today :-D

Please post if you guys see any of the regular video freezes.

Audio still dropping every 7ish seconds on the mits tuner.

I noticed this evening that WPTO-DT is on the air. They used to be on only from 6pm on Saturday until ??? on Sunday.

WDTN is owned by LIN television now. I don't recall them ever being owned by Sinclair. D'oh ! That may explain what I was told by TW then and that maybe the local people were in fact trying to work out a way to carry WDTN-DT over TW.

Please post if you guys see any of the regular video freezes.


Yep - Several. 3 of them I counted occured between 8:29pm and 8:37pm. On this reciever(internal ATSC receiver in Sony), the video freezes but the audio continues(doesn't drop at all) throughout the Freeze.

Several more audio drops as well(different times than the freezes). Lost a few important "words" of the dialogue this time.

[update] : BTW, interestingly enough, viewers of Sinclair owned ABC affiliate WSYX-DT Columbus are reporting getting audio drops from WSYX-DT recently in Columbus thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6310900&&#post6310900

I don't see WSYX-DT all the time, do know I hadn't noticed any problems from them in a while when I do see them and have been monitoring. WKEF's Engineer told me they are using the exact same equipment as WSYX-DT and WKEF-DT, except for the MPEG2(video) encoder.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I noticed this evening that WPTO-DT is on the air. They used to be on only from 6pm on Saturday until ??? on Sunday.

I think you are talking about "14 HD" from WPTO-DT. I just noticed this week that they are now in "HD Mode" M~F from 8~10pm as well as Sat and Sunday nights(just updated the WPTO info in first post in Cincinnati thread last night), and checked it on their program schedule (available here) :

http://www.thinktv.org/program/program.php

Click on "customize your program schedule",at above link then choose the service you are interested in (such as Think14 HD) and choose the date and 168 hours for a full week's schedule for that program service.

WPTO-DT has been on air 24/7 since they first came on air Spring or summer 2004. They run 4 SD multicast services when they are in "SD mode", and 2 SD+1 HD when they are in "HD mode". More info on WPTD-DT/WPTO-DT program services here :

http://www.thinktv.org/digitaltv/digitaltv.html

WPTO-DT broadcasts from WXIX(Fox) tower in Cincinnati, BTW. The analog transmits from Oxford.

I noticed WPTD-DT also has a new SD service "16Life" which replaced PBS Kids this week.

I'm guessing there is probably going to be more changes at PBS affiliates in our area the near future, given the info on the new PBS DTV channels(and expanded HD programming from PBS) posted here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=588647

Yes I was referring to their "HD" sub-channel. I subscribe to HDTV Magazine and about a week ago I got an e-mail saying there's a new HD channel in my area and they listed it as WPTO (or WPTD ?) which I thought was odd, given that they're both already on the air.

Anyone know if NHL Center Ice can be configured to be used with a Cablecard vice the set-top box? All the digital tier channels show up in my tuner (including what would be NHL Center Ice), they're all dark, as I have the Rakesh.S package. Cran

That's the same thing I'm seeing with my CC. (Well, I hid all the channels I don't get, so that's what I would be seeing.) I don't know of any reason that you couldn't get center ice, because the only thing the CC can't do is two-way communication. (Program Guide, On-demand, etc.) Seems like it should be possible to enable those channels in the same way that your HD channels are enabled. I'd be curious to hear the answer if you pursue this.

Phil

It doesn't look like you guys can get NHL Center Ice (or the NBA or NASCAR or MLB) with a cablecard. They're considered "on demand" services. This page, http://www.timewarnercable.com/dayton/products/cable/cablecard.html, is where I read it.

Quick question - I was wondering if anyone here is using a DVD recorder to control a TW box? I have seen these DVD recorder/PVR units listed in catalogs, etc. and they say they include a cable box controller (with the caveat that they work with *most* cable boxes). I'm not shelling out that much $$$ unless I'm sure. :D

Are all network sitcoms etc recorded in DD 5.1? The reason I ask is because when I was watching Will and Grace on WDTN last night, DD 5.1 was being passed through but i was getting dialog out of my rear's which I thought was strange. I don't know if i have some setting on my receiver setup wrong (it's a DD6.1 receiver so i may have an issue with it) or if it's because it's not true DD 5.1.

brouwerjs,

It's not your settings. I've noticed that as well during NBC programs. For example, it was like that during ER last night as well. Not sure which programs from NBC are supposed to be "true" DD 5.1, but in the past WDTN-DT has automatically "switched" between sending DD 5.1 and DD 2.0 depending upon what the source was.

I'm not sure at this point if it's WDTN, or how NBC and/or the production is doing things with DD 5.1. It did seem like last night during ER when someone was talking from the rear that's where the sound was coming from. Although it does seem to sound awfully "odd" at times. I Can't check against WLWT-DT as they are DD 2.0 only.

I don't know about you guys, but to me, the difference between discrete 5.1 and matrixed 5.1 is night and day.

I'm getting a lot of stuttering on Time Warner right now, but haven't seen the dreaded video freeze, unless I missed it.

I saw some video freeze's on the football game last night. The audio was great though. I was curious, were there that many Steeler fans out in San Diego or was ABC piping some extra crowd noise in during the entire game (on the 2 side speakers)?

The question(fake audio from ABC being piped in) was posed in the MNF thread in the programming forum. The caustic, acerbic moderator provided his typical response.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6335044&&#post6335044

I do agree that the rears were a little *too* active last night.

I noticed video freezes/glitches after halftime.

If anyone still has the SA8000HD box, are you noticing that WKEF loses audio completely after you've been watching it for a few minutes? This happens whenever you change the channel to WKEF. Also, the audio goes out of sync at random times, like it used to last year. The fix for both these issues is the same as before -- hit the "quarter circle" button on the remote, or rewind to a few seconds before the loss of sync/loss of audio occurred.

Any other boxes experiencing this issue?

Still had a few Video freezes here last night and a few short audio drops(at different times than the freezes) from WKEF-DT OTA.

Sure discrete 5.1 is nice - especially for the rear surrounds/LFE channel, and is certianly better. However I wouldn't quite call it "night and Day" difference from DD 2.0 with pro logic II decoding for matrixed surround. I'd rather have "glitch free" audio and HD video and have DD 2.0 than have a mess of video/audio glitches(or A/V sync problems) and DD 5.1, or "proper" DD 2.0 than messed up DD 5.1.

I'd call the difference between SD+HD "night and day". Don't get me wrong, I like DD 5.1 audio, but I guess I'd say PQ issues and video/audio "glitches" or sync issues are more of an issue for me. Heck, for most programming(besides some movies) I'd be happy with HD and 2 channel analog stereo audio.

Pro Logic II matrixed surround from DD 2.0 sources certianly works awfully nice for me, don't know why some folks don't seem to like it so much. For instance, last night I checked between WLWT-DT (DD 2.0) and WDTN-DT(supposedly DD 5.1) during NBC HD. DD 2.0 from WLWT-DT with PLII surround decoding from my audio receiver actually put the dialogue where it was supposed to be, mostly from the center channel. Same thing during the NASCAR HD races this weekend. From WDTN-DT, I had dialogue coming from everywhere. I think either WDTN-DT or NBC (I'm guessing WDTN-DT) needs to work on their DD 5.1 setup.

Surely everyone here read AVSforum rules before posting, right?

In the unlikely event that's not the case for you, you need to check out the rules here : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/rules.html -- Among other things the rules should give you a very good idea concerning what AVSforum is all about ....

For instance, here is commandment #4, from AVSforum 10 commandments :

4. Thou shalt remember that all other moderators are unpaid volunteers, who have freely accepted the responsibility of assisting in keeping this Forum organized and bash-free. They are not required to take bad behavior or insults by virtue of their voluntary position.

Ken H's comments are usually funny and or cyrptic as hell - depending on how you read it.... thats not a bash is it ??

The question(fake audio from ABC being piped in) was posed in the MNF thread in the programming forum. The moderator provided his response.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6335044&&#post6335044

...were there that many Steeler fans out in San Diego or was ABC piping some extra crowd noise in during the entire game (on the 2 side speakers)?

Maybe the audio guy was a Steelers fan. Those Steelers fans are EVERYWHERE! ;)

Did anyone else besides me experience audio dropouts on WHIO-DT during CSI and Without a Trace last night? Video wasn't affected. There must have been at least 5 or 6 short audio dropouts in that 2 hour span.

Yes, I experienced the audio dropouts on WHIO-DT. It has been a common occurence for me. Another thing I noticed--at least a couple times a night, WHIO-DT does something that gives my STB fits. It starts a rhythmic dropping of audio about every 5 seconds or so for just a split second. The only way to fix it is to change the channel and come back to it, then everything is fine.

Paul

Repeated audio cutouts on WKEF during "5.1" on ABC college football today. Guess that's par for the course.

Solution: switch to analog, press mute, turn on WING 1410 instead.

Meanwhile, I can watch the Notre Dame Broadcasting Corporation cover the Irish in HD.

Did anyone see the Sanyo HD set advertised in today's Value City ad ?? It appears to be this model, http://www.sanyo.com/entertainment/televisions/digital/index.cfm?productID=904, which I've read a number of favorable reviews on.... Wish I could justify the expense right now, but I can't.... :( I'd seriously consider it. It's even got a built-in HD tuner.

It is remanufactured, but that doesn't bother me. I am curious how many of these Sanyo had to refurb if a large chain like Value City is selling them though !

Maybe the audio guy was a Steelers fan. Those Steelers fans are EVERYWHERE! ;)

All sounds are real, trust me.

All sounds are real, trust me.

Well, if I can't trust a guy who created an ID implying that he was a Monday Night Football Sound Mixer, and then made 2 posts in 2 forums about the sound mix on Monday Night Football, who can I trust?

Phil

Rakesh.S
Don Criqui Supporter


In Don we trust. :D

So I asked awhile back about putting up an antenna to get DTV from Columbus. Nitewatchman and 1450khz both provided helpful responses, and through some trial-and-error, I finally have a working setup. I thought I'd share my experiences.

My goal was to get 1 station: WBNS, the Columbus CBS affiliate. The idea was to improve my chances of seeing Browns games when there was a conflict between the Bengals and Browns schedules. I live in Oakwood, which has relatively high elevation, and I am 63 miles from the WBNS transmitter.

I pressed my luck and went with the 43XG (http://www.antennasdirect.com/43XG_digital_antenna.html) from antennasdirect, which is rated at 60 miles. For a variety of reasons, their larger-sized 91XG (rated at 70+ miles) wasn't an option. I initially tried setting it up on a temporary mount, with a 50' run of cable (I would eventually need a longer cable for a permanent install). The reception was spotty at best. I went to Radio Shack and bought an amplifier, which improved the situation a great deal, but still wasn't very good. A quick Google search told me that the RS amp I bought was crap. But since even a lousy amp made a big difference, I decided to press on. I bought the Channel Master 7777 amp, which is what Nitewatchman originally recommended. It does a really nice job. In the end, I have the 43XG mounted to my chimney (Radio Shack's chimney mounting kit is also crap--the ratchets are woefully overmatched by the steel strap), with the mast-mounted CM7777 and a 100' run of cable. I aimed the antenna to get the best reception from WBNS, and it wasn't exactly at the compass heading provided by antennaweb.

At that position, I am also able to pick up the Columbus FOX and NBC affiliates. The NBC station is a nice bonus, since I have TWC and I don't get WDTN-DT. In the evening hours, I get rock-solid reception on all of them. In the afternoon, NBC gets a little spotty, but WBNS has only an occasional dropout. (At its worst, it's around 70% signal and 20 SNR. At its best, it's around 80% signal and 25 SNR.) FOX almost never wavers a bit. Again, WBNS was my only priority, and it's entirely watchable.

In the meantime, I've been corresponding with someone from Englewood who was trying the same thing for the same reason, and he didn't have any luck, even with the 91XG. I don't know if he ever tried an amp, though. The amp seemed to be the single biggest factor during my experience.

Anyway, I'm pretty happy with the way things turned out, and I appreciate the help that Nitewatchman and 1450khz gave.

Phil

SThe idea was to improve my chances of seeing Browns games when there was a conflict between the Bengals and Browns schedules.

Just give up on the Browns and be a Bengals fan, we need all we can get to make a deep run into the playoffs this year :)

Don Criqui SupporterIn Don we trust. :D
Thank God the Bengals have moved up to the point they don't get stuck with Criqui anymore, on Sundays where I can't seem to sync my DVR with the Dave and Brad broadcast on 104.7, the TV broadcast is usually somewhat tolerable.

Just give up on the Browns and be a Bengals fan, we need all we can get to make a deep run into the playoffs this year :)

Here's the thing--the success of the Bengals is inversely proportional to my chances of seeing the Browns on WBNS. So I now have another reason to cheer against them. A part of me is happy for longsuffering Bengals fans. But it's a very, very small part of me.

Phil

Thank God the Bengals have moved up to the point they don't get stuck with Criqui anymore, on Sundays where I can't seem to sync my DVR with the Dave and Brad broadcast on 104.7, the TV broadcast is usually somewhat tolerable.

I'd rather hear Don Criqui than Brad (I got this job because I already worked for Cheap Channel) Johansen and "screaming" Dave Lapham.

Just take a drink every time Don gets someone's name, or the location of the game, or the teams playing, incorrect.

Here's the thing--the success of the Bengals is inversely proportional to my chances of seeing the Browns on WBNS.

I've noticed that too, as wifey is a Browns fan, yet the Browns were not available on WBNS last time. I think WBNS picks whoever's hot.

Congrats on your success at catching WBNS. If you like Ohio State basketball you'll find that it helps to be able to pick them up as well.

Go Browns!!

In Don we trust. :D

I'm tellin ya.. The Bungles are going to ride Criqui to the Super Bowl.

Next season, CBS will be slurping the Bungles just like they're slurping the Patriots now.

Looks like it'll be Texans games for Criqui from here on out.

Anything going on with WHIO. I'm getting no signal down here in Cincinnati. I can get all the other local Dayton stations.

Anything going on with WHIO. I'm getting no signal down here in Cincinnati. I can get all the other local Dayton stations.

What kinda tuner and antenna do you have to receive Dayton stations? WHIO sucks by the way. I still have these audio dropouts every 7 seconds.

Did anyone see the Sanyo HD set advertised in today's Value City ad ?? It appears to be this model, http://www.sanyo.com/entertainment/televisions/digital/index.cfm?productID=904, which I've read a number of favorable reviews on.... Wish I could justify the expense right now, but I can't.... :( I'd seriously consider it. It's even got a built-in HD tuner.

It is remanufactured, but that doesn't bother me. I am curious how many of these Sanyo had to refurb if a large chain like Value City is selling them though !

Yeah...I missed out on this one too. I saw two in a box (still remanufactured, but in the box). I went home to do some research. When I came back 4 hrs later, they were both gone! Oh well...save me some money, I guess.

Can someone tell me if you are receiving local TWC HD channels with basic TWC service using a HDTV monitor equipped with a QAM tuner? I'm thinking about getting cable for this reason since I can't get OTA WHIO anymore without the annoying cyclic audio drops. I tried to explain this to some friends and compared it to Chinese water torture (since it's so cyclic). They had a good laugh.

Unless something's changed in the past few days, you should be able to get

WHIO-DT, WKEF-DT, WRGT-DT, and numerous PBS channels

this way. As of a couple of months ago, people were even able to get TNT-HD and DiscoveryHD Theatre too, but not any more.

How much does basic cable costs in the Dayton area, anyway? I tried calling but TWC sales line put me on hold for 15 minutes so I hung up. No mention of pricing for basic cable on their website either.

Also, when are they going to add the CBS and WB channels?

How much does basic cable costs in the Dayton area, anyway? I tried calling but TWC sales line put me on hold for 15 minutes so I hung up. No mention of pricing for basic cable on their website either.

Also, when are they going to add the CBS and WB channels?

CBS is one of those that you would get (CBS, FOX, ABC, PBS). NBC and WB have been long anticipated, and I don't know that anyone can say when they'll be around. Hopefully they'll add NBC by the time they start carrying NFL games next year.

I think it's around $8 for "lifeline" service, and it's ~$50 for 2-78. I have 2-78 + a cablecard for the HD tier, and it's $60/month even.

Phil

CBS is one of those that you would get (CBS, FOX, ABC, PBS). NBC and WB have been long anticipated, and I don't know that anyone can say when they'll be around. Hopefully they'll add NBC by the time they start carrying NFL games next year.

I think it's around $8 for "lifeline" service, and it's ~$50 for 2-78. I have 2-78 + a cablecard for the HD tier, and it's $60/month even.

Phil

Phil, thanks for the post. Sorry to ask for more clarification but I don't know where else turned unless I wait on their sales line.

1. What exactly does the lifeline service include (both SD and HDTV channels)?
2. What's "2-78"?

Yeah...I missed out on this one too. I saw two in a box (still remanufactured, but in the box). I went home to do some research. When I came back 4 hrs later, they were both gone! Oh well...save me some money, I guess.

I went to the Salem store this week. I couldn't find them anywhere. When I asked at the service desk, the girl just laughed. She said they were gone like lightning on Sunday.

"lifeline" or "Limited Tier" includes channels 2-25 (or so, will vary depending on where you live) plus 707-745. See this page, http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/CLU/TWCCLUs.ashx?CLUID=119&Zip=&Image1.x=42&Image1.y=8&Image1=submit, to see what those channels are. That's for "City of Dayton". Put in your zip code to get *your* exact lineup. Note: It shows channels 755 and 756, Disc HD Theatre and TNT-HD, but you will NOT get those unless you have a TW box or cablecard. Also, you need a high-def box or cablecard in order to get the 700-range channels.

Same page details what "2-78" gets you. TW calls that their "Classic Tier". The channels are all analog, i.e. no digital channels.

"lifeline" or "Limited Tier" includes channels 2-25 (or so, will vary depending on where you live) plus 707-745. See this page, http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/CLU/TWCCLUs.ashx?CLUID=119&Zip=&Image1.x=42&Image1.y=8&Image1=submit, to see what those channels are. That's for "City of Dayton". Put in your zip code to get *your* exact lineup. Note: It shows channels 755 and 756, Disc HD Theatre and TNT-HD, but you will NOT get those unless you have a TW box or cablecard. Also, you need a high-def box or cablecard in order to get the 700-range channels.

Same page details what "2-78" gets you. TW calls that their "Classic Tier". The channels are all analog, i.e. no digital channels.

I don't know how you found this page, but thanks. Looks like the limited tier is pretty sh!tty. I might have to bite the bullet and get the classic tier.

Quite easily ... from memory, first thing to do is change your location. Then click Programming across the top, then channel lineups.

Just off the phone for a half hour with TWC service. No HDtier (756-765) today, also no 750-752, plus no music (401-447). 707-749 are there -- Ala/Tenn looks good in Hidef. Rakesh.S package -- 2-78 plus a cablecard.

Tech can see the cablecard, but it doesn't seem to do anything when he hits it. He has unpaired, deleted me, and brought me back, but it doesn't do anything here. Verified numbers showing up in the cablecard are the numbers he has in the system. Pulled power to the TV a couple times, but didn't make a difference. Currently, he has the account unpaired ... but the free HD service continues.

What's screwy is that 755-765 are tunable, but the TV seems to think that they're all either 720p or 1080i. And it changes from time to time. All started out with no picture, but as 720p, and now they're all 1080i with no picture. Digimusic channels are gone from 401-447 -- I don't even get the cheesy background picture.

Tech even tried to turn on digital service, but nothing down in the 100s. He scheduled a service appointment, but I think it's a waste of time, as I get 707-749 just fine -- no surprise that it's the *pay* part that doesn't work. I'll be surprised if a service call doesn't waste an hour of my time.

Anybody else in Dayton South having trouble today?

Cya
Cran

No HDtier (756-765) today, also no 750-752, plus no music (401-447).

I also have the Rakesh.S package, and I've had similar issues. When I've called TWC, the CSR has gone through all the same steps, and nothing seemed to help. They sent hit after hit and it didn't make any difference. Then, suddenly, the encrypted stations would come back online. It didn't necessarily correspond to a "hit," though. All I've been able to figure is that the CC was working through some issues of its own, and took awhile to come back online. Since then, I've found that if I turn off the TV, wait a minute, and then turn it back on, the card usually comes back within a minute or two. That may or may not have anything to do with your issue, but that's been my experience. I'd be interested to hear what finally fixes the problem for you.

I think that when a tech comes out, they just automatically switch out the cable card. They don't bother trying to troubleshoot too much. Here's hoping you get a competent one.

Phil

Nice to see WHIO multicasting, showing the late HD game on the DT station and the Ravens/Bears on the analog

Nice to see WHIO multicasting, showing the late HD game on the DT station and the Ravens/Bears on the analog
So much for that, at 4:58 EST they switched to Bears/Ravens on WHIO-DT

I also have the Rakesh.S package, and I've had similar issues. When I've called TWC, the CSR has gone through all the same steps, and nothing seemed to help. They sent hit after hit and it didn't make any difference. Then, suddenly, the encrypted stations would come back online. It didn't necessarily correspond to a "hit," though. All I've been able to figure is that the CC was working through some issues of its own, and took awhile to come back online. Since then, I've found that if I turn off the TV, wait a minute, and then turn it back on, the card usually comes back within a minute or two. That may or may not have anything to do with your issue, but that's been my experience. I'd be interested to hear what finally fixes the problem for you.

I think that when a tech comes out, they just automatically switch out the cable card. They don't bother trying to troubleshoot too much. Here's hoping you get a competent one.

Phil

OK, so here's the followup.

What I didn't mention (before) was that when I got the CC working the first time was when I called TWC on Sunday morn. So I tried it again ... but I turned on the TV first. Ahem. There were all the channels which were missing. So I scrubbed the service call.

Tech on the phone said she couldn't explain it. Something about the pushes down "piling up" and "sometimes it takes awhile" and "it's all about bandwidth." Sigh. If I can get an HDTV picture on *some* channels, then, sorry, the bandwidth's there. I guess I'll have to start keeping track of when it goes out, and be a PITA about credits back.

C'ya
Cran

Just in case someone else experiences these issues...

I'd been having a number of problems with my 8300HD over the past couple of months:

1. Pressing the PIP button would show a black inset box for about a minute, then cause a reboot
2. Trying to pause live TV would instead play the same seemingly random 10-second video clip
3. Playing a recorded show to the end would pop up the "choose A, B, or C" message, but choosing A or B would cause a reboot

After working around these annoyances for a long time, I finally bit the bullet and exchanged the 8300HD at the TWC Kettering office. So far so good: all of the above are working fine now. FWIW, the diag screen reports Passport v1.8.103. I wish I had thought to check the Passport version of the box I returned, but I didn't.

There are a few reports of the similar PIP problem here, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6336932&highlight=pip#post6336932. I have no problems with mine though, not that I use it that often either. The version of Passport you have is the "normal" release. I'm wondering, like you, if the box you returned had a newer beta version. I thought TW would let you know that you have newer software and that you'd have an official way to report problems and so on. I know TW-WOH is testing and planning to roll out 1.8.112 soon. I'd think an issue like you and others report though would stop that.

Unfortunately, I have received confirmation from WHIO that Flyers games will not be in HD this year.

Of course, this also confirms that WHIO will continue carrying the Flyers, as there has been some speculation that UD would jump ship over to FSN.

Unfortunately, I have received confirmation from WHIO that Flyers games will not be in HD this year.

Of course, this also confirms that WHIO will continue carrying the Flyers, as there has been some speculation that UD would jump ship over to FSN.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO! Not more Mike Hartsock! He is terrible!

That being said, I emailed WXIX and they have not decided on what UC games (if any) will be in HD. I'm trying to decide whether to get an antenna or not, and this will probably be the biggest reason to sway me one way or the other.

P.S. Nancy Zimpher sucks

NOOOOOOOOOOOO! Not more Mike Hartsock! He is terrible!


I don't think we want Hairpiece in HD. Definitely not Donna Jordan either. :eek:

Just in case someone else experiences these issues...

I'd been having a number of problems with my 8300HD over the past couple of months:
[snip]
FWIW, the diag screen reports Passport v1.8.103. I wish I had thought to check the Passport version of the box I returned, but I didn't.

I've had an 8300HD from Cincinnati TWC for about five months. Up until the last three weeks it has behaved very well. Unfortunately it has rebooted itself around ten times in the last three weeks. Each time I had the PIP window open, and had just pressed SWAP.

The DIAG screen reports the following:
ResApp Version: Passport Echo 1.8.095 Date: 12/14/04
OS Version: PowerTV 6.8.9.4sp Date: 08/11/04

Please keep us informed as to whether your new box suffers from the REBOOT problem. After a couple weeks, if it hasn't rebooted on you, I might just try swapping my box to see if I can get one with a newer version.

CincyKev

Please keep us informed as to whether your new box suffers from the REBOOT problem. Week two and all's well with the new box. My suspicion is that the badly behaving 8300HD was suffering from something akin to file system corruption, and that both the new and old were on the same Passport version. In any case, I'd recommend you swap yours out: the reboots are a real pain.

Unfortunately it has rebooted itself around ten times in the last three weeks. Each time I had the PIP window open, and had just pressed SWAP.

The DIAG screen reports the following:
ResApp Version: Passport Echo 1.8.095 Date: 12/14/04 A few people in the "TWC 8000/8300" thread I posted above are seeing this reboot problem when pushing "SWAP" too. You're running an older version of Passport than most though... Kinda odd, I think. North of you, in "Western Ohio", all of us are running 1.8.103 (beta testers should have 1.8.112). I do not experience this reboot problem either.

Check that thread for other Cincy users and see what version they're running. There's nothing you can do to force a s/w update nor stop a s/w update so presumably that version is current for Cincy. You'll likely get nowhere with tech support... As far as they're concerned, you shouldn't be going into the 'diag' menus anyway to know what s/w version you have.

I don't know how many variations of my package are in this thread, but here's what I have..

Limited(2 - 25) - $12
HD Tier - $8
DVR - $25(lots of BS, like "guide fee", "navigator fee", "recording fee" etc etc.)

This works out to roughly $45/month, and I'm still getting 26-78, tnt-hd, discovery-hd in addition to what I mentioned above.

Tips and tricks, if you can't get this package at the time of installation -

Suck it up and get the digipic 2000(or 1000 or whatever) package... Keep it for X days(1 or more) and then call and say that you'd like to downgrade i.e. get rid of two premiums(this is in the digipic 2000 and I think it's 1 premium in the 1000 package), channels 26-78. This should be done instantly.

Keep in mind this will be cheaper if you don't want a DVR, or if you just want a DVR + locals and no HD tier etc etc.

The above + roadrunner brings the total to $92/month, which is much better than $110 or $115 or whatever obnoxious price you were forced into with the digipic packages.

While I'm at it, I finally got off my ass and entered diagnostic mode on the DVR. WB seems to be coming in quite nicely on 726, and I was able to record programming earlier tonight!

Rakesh, so you're only paying for the limited and HD tier yet you still get channels 25 - 78 ?? Interesting.... :) That's probably a glitch that they'll catch in an internal audit.

WB comes and goes all the time. I used to think it's an indication that they're getting close on a deal then it goes away again.

Yup, only paying for limited, and was told that they would send someone out to filter 26-78 -- never happened.

I have noticed WB disappearing every so often, but still ..having the ability to record programming by putting the box into diagnostic mode? priceless :D

Yup, only paying for limited, and was told that they would send someone out to filter 26-78 -- never happened.

The same thing happened to me a couple years back when I tried to go down to the limited tier. The installer told me that the box on my house was too old for him to turn off everything he was supposed to, so I got basic service at the limited price. Several months later, the guy who came out on an unrelated call apparently knew how to do it, because everything I wasn't supposed to get went away. I guess occasionally the mistakes of an unskilled TWC installer go in the customer's favor.

Phil

Yeah, they'll usually catch up with you in those cases. Make that (3) of us, at least, who got "free" service for a period of time waiting for them to send someone out to do that. It happened with us too ! It's not an issue of knowing how or what to do either, it's having the right trap on their truck.

By the way, we all realize that the cablecos consider that "passive theft" ?? In my case, I called them no less than (3) times telling them "I'm still getting those channels..." and was told "we'll send someone out to take care of that. don't worry sir, you won't need to be home either", meaning, we don't know when it will happen so don't wait for it !! :)

Regarding WDTN and TW HD:
I sent an email to WDTN asking for an update on what is going on. I got an immediate response and that was appreciated. The respone:

The reason that WDTN-DT is not on Time Warner is an inability by the two
to enter into a retransmit agreement. The negotiations are being
conducted at the corporate level and I am not aware of the issues. I do
know that WDTN-DT is looking forward to providing programming through
all available sources.

Thanks for your enquiry and interest,


Jim Atkinson
Chief Engineer
WDTN
WDTN-DT

Regarding WDTN and TW HD:
I sent an email to WDTN asking for an update on what is going on. I got an immediate response and that was appreciated. The respone:

The reason that WDTN-DT is not on Time Warner... Hehe, the text of that message sounds *very* familiar.... I'm betting he's got a message he just copy and pastes in regards to that question now !! As a matter of fact, I've still got my e-mail from "Jim": From: Jim Atkinson <-snip-> Mailed-By: wdtn.com
To: (me)
Date: Oct 1, 2004 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: WDTN Website Feedback

The reason that WDTN-DT is not on Time Warner is an inability by the
two to enter into a retransmit agreement. The negotiations are being
conducted at the corporate level and I am not aware of the issues. I do
know that WDTN-DT is looking forward to providing programming through
all available sources.

Thanks for your enquiry and interest,


Jim Atkinson
Chief Engineer
WDTN
WDTN-DT Look familiar to you too ?? :D

did anyone else have trouble with fox45 during the bengals game?

jim

I didn't have any problems at all. I thought PQ was excellent throughout the whole game too.