No problems here either with WRGT-DT ... except having to look at the orange and white uniforms .... Too much Color ...

I am on TW cable and can only get CBS(channel 7) with my QAM tuner. Fox(45) and ABC(22) almost make it from time to time but is not watchable. I am thinking the signal is too week by the time it gets to my area.

"too week" (sic) ?? Not likely.... They don't boost one channel differently than another channel, I'm sure. I doubt they'll really help with this though since it's easy for them to blame your TV. What you're implying is that even with one of their set-top boxes you still wouldn't be able to get channels 22 and 45 though. Have them bring you an HD set-top and see what happens. If the channels come in fine, I don't know what they can do. If the channels don't come in, make 'em fix it until they do. When that's done, disconnect the set-top and see if your TV can now receive the channels.

anyone missing sound on wkef for mnf? bith the hd tivo and the dvico fusion 5 are video only.. no audio

edit.. nevermind.. its on at 9:09

"too week" (sic) ?? Not likely.... They don't boost one channel differently than another channel, I'm sure. I doubt they'll really help with this though since it's easy for them to blame your TV. What you're implying is that even with one of their set-top boxes you still wouldn't be able to get channels 22 and 45 though. Have them bring you an HD set-top and see what happens. If the channels come in fine, I don't know what they can do. If the channels don't come in, make 'em fix it until they do. When that's done, disconnect the set-top and see if your TV can now receive the channels.

I am sure no expert but I do have two HDTVs.
65 inch Mitsubishi with LG 3510a tuner.
42 inch Philips 42pf9630a.
Both have a QAM tuner.
I have the same problem on both getting Fox(45) and ABC(22).
CBS(7) comes in fine. I was getting 45 & 22 a couple weeks but something has changed. I am kind of at the end of a cable line and maybe more people are connected now. Also I only have basic cable with broadband that works great.

Have you scheduled a tech visit yet ??

Is everyone experiencing audio dropouts and video freezes with WKEF ABC? I get it on 722 through Time Warner and the video freezes up and or the audio drops out very frequently (seems like atleast every minute or two, but it's not at regular intervals).

Is everyone experiencing audio dropouts and video freezes with WKEF ABC?


Yes, very much so. The game was nearly unwatchable last night. I'm just thankful I have two other OTA options for ABC.

Paul

Well, I'm sorry you are experiencing it too, but I'm glad it's not just me.

I did leave a message with their engineering/technical department. It probably won't do any good, but atleast they know people are watching.

My wife watches alias on wkef. The oct 20th show had no audio except for brief intermitant bits (like half a second here and there). The Ohio St vs San Diego game in late September had long audio dropouts. This past weekend's Ohio St vs Minnesota game was unwatchable. All this was on TW ch 722. It seems like wkef is degressing as far as their HD channel is concerned.

I noticed *no* audio on WKEF on the 6 o'clock news, either this past evening or yesterday. This was on TWC and on my Mits tuner.

I had no dropouts but experienced some serious video delay. Switching to the Cincinnati channel didn't help and the HD picture was much worse than WKEF's.

WRGT-DT: Did anybody notice red push on that channel? I was watching House and noticed it on both the Dayton and Cincinnati Fox channels. At first I thought I had accidentally changed my display's color or tint settings but they're correct. Everybody looked like they should be on blood pressure medication.

WKEF is a two-bit operation. I had to watch the analog for the OSU game last weekend. My wife didn't like my other option (mute the sound and turn on a radio with the game on it).

Speaking of which, anyone notice the bad herringbone or diagonal pattern on the picture when they air "Buckeye football fever"? Five bucks says they are using an off-air pickup of Channel 6 in Columbus where the show originates, and are getting interference from 88.1 FM.

WKEF is a two-bit operation. I had to watch the analog for the OSU game last weekend. My wife didn't like my other option (mute the sound and turn on a radio with the game on it).

Speaking of which, anyone notice the bad herringbone or diagonal pattern on the picture when they air "Buckeye football fever"? Five bucks says they are using an off-air pickup of Channel 6 in Columbus where the show originates, and are getting interference from 88.1 FM.

come on now.. don't hold back.

Tell us how you REALLY feel about WKEF :)

Speaking of which, anyone notice the bad herringbone or diagonal pattern on the picture when they air "Buckeye football fever"? Five bucks says they are using an off-air pickup of Channel 6 in Columbus where the show originates, and are getting interference from 88.1 FM.

I believe you are right. I watched last weekend and noticed several Columbus area advertisements. I wouldn't expect anything less from WKEF. You would think that with two ABC stations between Cincy and Dayton, at least one would be decent, oh well.

Five bucks says they are using an off-air pickup of Channel 6 in Columbus where the show originates, and are getting interference from 88.1 FM.

Anybody want to go in together and buy them an FM trap?

Phil

anyone have trouble with wgrt yesterday?

my signal was way down for wgrt - to the point where it would not lock on ... infact everything was down yesterday.. but by last night things were normal expect for wgrt.. it was watchable, but still 20 "points" lower than normal. any thoughts?

anyone have trouble with wgrt yesterday?


No problems here.


my signal was way down for wgrt - to the point where it would not lock on ... infact everything was down yesterday.. but by last night things were normal expect for wgrt.. it was watchable, but still 20 "points" lower than normal. any thoughts?

Ok, here are some thoughts.

If everything was down from "normal" during the day yesterday compared to what you usually get I dunno, first I'd probably check all the connections/etc and/or make sure you're getting enough signal(analog Dayton UHF signals shouldn't be "snowy" at your location for instance) -- either by improving antenna or adding a good mast mount preamp to recover losses from long feedline run or from splitting/etc.

Or, given the timing you mentioned, wind+tree limbs blowing around could be giving you problems with dynamic Multipath conditions -- Although, if that's the issue it perhaps seems a bit odd you're seeing the problem all across the dial.

Here, when the leaves are off trees(or mostly off) and the wind is up quite a bit I notice on WPTD-DT 58 that the signal quality meter on the receiver "bounces around" quite a bit, it's usually rock steady. I can fix it by moving the Dayton antenna(CM4228) down the mast for a sweeter spot for WPTD-DT, but that causes problems with WKEF-DT+WDTN-DT when the wind is blowing+the leaves are off ...

Here, It's probably a combination of the slight bit of Terrain issue I have which makes it "not quite" Line of sight to Dayton, and the High Frequency/short wavelength involved with WPTD-DT + add in the wind and the tree limbs moving around(It doesn't happen when the leaves are on however) causing the issue. It's not a problem at all for my "main antenna", up 10 feet higher+on a rotor. I can actually "see" the dynamic multipath problem on screen when the leaves are off+limbs are blowing around on WRGT 45 analog(but no problems on any "lower" Dayton analog channel) -- It causes "fluttery ghosts" worse than I've ever seen from a aircraft flying over ... Yesterday morning while the wind was up, it was so bad, WRGT 45 analog pic was actually "moving" a bit left and right with the wind gusts ......

Anyway, If it is Dynamic multipath issues you are dealing with, you might want to try reaiming antenna and/or moving it up+down mast (or to another spot) a little to find a better sweet spot for Dayton - hopefully you won't have to do it again in the summer when the leaves are on ..... A "better" antenna setup might help as well. You'll just have to experiment. Hopefully just a slight reaiming will do the trick. You mentioned a preamp on Cincinnati thread, while that might help you out if the signal level is marginal, but it's not likely to make Dynamic Multipath issues go away, the multipath echoes will still be there when the limbs blow around, they'll just be stronger .....

Another thought concerning WRGT-DT 30 might be that now that the leaves are off, I suppose it is somewhat possible the signal conditions at your location may have changed just enough from Summer that WXIX-DT 29 might be causing selectivity problems for your receiver. DTV is supposed to work with as much as 46db difference in signal levels on 1st adjacent channels, and you'd *think* you'd be OK there for your location where WXIX-DT/WRGT-DT is concerned, but who knows .... You are probably pretty close to being in one of the biggest nulls in WRGT-DT's pattern :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=29247&rotate=0.00&p0=0.987&p10=1.000&p20=0.987&p30=0.950&p40=0.896&p50=0.833&p60=0.771&p70=0.714&p80=0.663&p90=0.614&p100=0.560&p110=0.496&p120=0.420&p130=0.338&p140=0.267&p150=0.237&p160=0.264&p170=0.317&p180=0.362&p190=0.379&p200=0.362&p210=0.317&p220=0.263&p230=0.236&p240=0.267&p250=0.338&p260=0.420&p270=0.495&p280=0.559&p290=0.613&p300=0.662&p310=0.713&p320=0.770&p330=0.833&p340=0.895&p350=0.950&p360=0.987&

Again, if you're dealing with a weak signal from WRGT-DT, a better antenna or preamp should help, but you'd probably want an antenna with a better F/B ratio if the problem is 1st adajcent channel/receiver selectivity issue for WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT. A preamp isn't going to change the difference in signal levels between WRGT-DT+WXIX-DT coming in off the back side of the antenna. Also keep in mind just because your receiver's signal "meter" may not show a strong signal from WXIX-DT off the back side doesn't mean it isn't still quite strong --- Those things often don't tell you a lot about actual signal strength ...

Good luck+let us know if you have any luck improving things ...

When will WKEF get their act together????
Watching MNFootball is ridiculous in HD. Both Time Warner and OTA has audio only 50% of the time! It's been weeks!!!!!!!!
OTA signal is 90% whether it has audio or not.

When will WKEF get their act together????
Watching MNFootball is ridiculous in HD. Both Time Warner and OTA has audio only 50% of the time! It's been weeks!!!!!!!!
OTA signal is 90% whether it has audio or not.

WKEF = cut rate two bit operation.

I'm getting fairly steady audio out of them tonight using FusionHD 3 PC tuner card and Time Warner channel 93-2 on cable QAM. However, the ubiquitous video hangs are still around, and I'm still getting audio cutouts with those.

mnf has been good on the hd tivo - only 1 video barf so far

I haven't been watching it real close tonight, but haven't noticed any problems with WKEF-DT recently here.

BTW, for those of you which don't venture much off this thread, the missing audio during first 9 minutes of MNF HD last week was a ABC national issue.

One thing I did find interesting is for the last "Alias" a week and a half ago, I noticed that I was getting all sorts of Audio Dropouts from WKEF-DT BUT ONLY via the DD decoder in my Audio Receiver. The audio decoder for the set(sony KD-34XBR960 with internal ATSC receiver) wasn't having the problem at all decoding the DD 5.1 and downconverting it to analog 2 channel audio for output via the set's internal speakers), nor have I had a problem with my other receivers which I'm using with other displays and audio setups with analog 2 channel audio only.

For a minute there, I thought I had a problem with the optical cable or connections/etc, until I noticed I wasn't getting any sort of problem with it for other stations. I think it sends a DD stream for external decoder, but may be PCM, not sure.

Interesting....

Because of above comments, just tried Time Warner 722 audio through DD 5.1 receiver and it works great. But with my Sharp Aquos TV it is intermittent. Only channel that has this problem. Both OTA and 722. ???
There's something about WKEF my Sharp HDTV doesn't like.

Audio dropouts a plenty with my setup on WKEF-DT during the game. Zenith OTA receiver to DD5.1.

I had quite a few short audio dropouts last night too during the game. There was also severe video problems as soon as they switched to commercials. Did anyone else notice this? I'm not sure what you would call it - random squares and rectangles of various colors. The picture was great during the game. I checked the Cincinnati station for a bit and they didn't have any of the 'blocking' going on during commercials. But they had the typical PQ with jaggies galore.

I don't experience audio dropouts on WKEF with my configuration either. I do see the video freezes, though, during which the audio continues normally.

8300HD (TWC) using component video to a Panasonic plasma, and analog 2 channel audio to its attached speakers.

it seems that wkef is having some sort of problem which we have known about for a while.. the problem is - everyone gets effected by it a little differently - for my mileage.. I will take it over wcpo any day

Noticed WRGT-DT hasn't been sending PSIP since sometime Yesterday. Seeing them at 30-3.

Noticed WRGT-DT hasn't been sending PSIP since sometime Yesterday. Seeing them at 30-3.

I noticed while watching the Simpson's last night on WRGT-DT that they were having some lock-ups. I didn't watch the Fox Network programming to see if it was having an issue.

Any word on the firmware upgrade for the SA8300HD DVRs? I seem to remember reading a few months back that an upgrade was scheduled for early November.

I called TWC on the issue asking about the firmware upgrade. The CSR tried to transfer me to roadrunner. After I stoped her, I then asked about firewire support on the 8300HD. She replied that firewire would never be supported. I then told her that Cincinnati users had firewire enabled on their 8300HD STBs, with a new firmware upgrade that was recently applied. She said Cincinnati was a different division. I then replied that Cincinnati and Dayton divisions had merged. She replied that the merger hadn't yet been completed. I then asked whether we would be brought up to the newer firmware at some point in the future when the merger was complete, and she replied that the systems would remain separate and that firewire would never be enabled.

If she didn't know, she should say so, but making up answers isn't helpful. Anyone have a knowledgeable contact?

PSIP is back from WRGT-DT now. Sent them a note about it this morning via their website feedback forum, don't know if that helped or not.

I then asked about firewire support on the 8300HD.

Anyone have a knowledgeable contact? I just e-mailed my contact there.... Will post when I get an answer.

Tonight, things are good.. nice and solid on all stations.. cincinnati and dayton (except fox 45) .. I think the problem last week that was across the board was the extreme wind..

last night, the wind was not as bad, but the dayton stations were taking a hit - so I have a feeling it has something to do with the dynamic multipath.. so here is my solution - 1) recheck to make sure nothing came loose connection wise, 2) move the dayton antenna up or down on the mast - ie.. try and tweak it and 3) and that cm amp

sound like a good plan?

jim


No problems here.



Ok, here are some thoughts.

If everything was down from "normal" during the day yesterday compared to what you usually get I dunno, first I'd probably check all the connections/etc and/or make sure you're getting enough signal(analog Dayton UHF signals shouldn't be "snowy" at your location for instance) -- either by improving antenna or adding a good mast mount preamp to recover losses from long feedline run or from splitting/etc.

Or, given the timing you mentioned, wind+tree limbs blowing around could be giving you problems with dynamic Multipath conditions -- Although, if that's the issue it perhaps seems a bit odd you're seeing the problem all across the dial.

Here, when the leaves are off trees(or mostly off) and the wind is up quite a bit I notice on WPTD-DT 58 that the signal quality meter on the receiver "bounces around" quite a bit, it's usually rock steady. I can fix it by moving the Dayton antenna(CM4228) down the mast for a sweeter spot for WPTD-DT, but that causes problems with WKEF-DT+WDTN-DT when the wind is blowing+the leaves are off ...

Here, It's probably a combination of the slight bit of Terrain issue I have which makes it "not quite" Line of sight to Dayton, and the High Frequency/short wavelength involved with WPTD-DT + add in the wind and the tree limbs moving around(It doesn't happen when the leaves are on however) causing the issue. It's not a problem at all for my "main antenna", up 10 feet higher+on a rotor. I can actually "see" the dynamic multipath problem on screen when the leaves are off+limbs are blowing around on WRGT 45 analog(but no problems on any "lower" Dayton analog channel) -- It causes "fluttery ghosts" worse than I've ever seen from a aircraft flying over ... Yesterday morning while the wind was up, it was so bad, WRGT 45 analog pic was actually "moving" a bit left and right with the wind gusts ......

Anyway, If it is Dynamic multipath issues you are dealing with, you might want to try reaiming antenna and/or moving it up+down mast (or to another spot) a little to find a better sweet spot for Dayton - hopefully you won't have to do it again in the summer when the leaves are on ..... A "better" antenna setup might help as well. You'll just have to experiment. Hopefully just a slight reaiming will do the trick. You mentioned a preamp on Cincinnati thread, while that might help you out if the signal level is marginal, but it's not likely to make Dynamic Multipath issues go away, the multipath echoes will still be there when the limbs blow around, they'll just be stronger .....

Another thought concerning WRGT-DT 30 might be that now that the leaves are off, I suppose it is somewhat possible the signal conditions at your location may have changed just enough from Summer that WXIX-DT 29 might be causing selectivity problems for your receiver. DTV is supposed to work with as much as 46db difference in signal levels on 1st adjacent channels, and you'd *think* you'd be OK there for your location where WXIX-DT/WRGT-DT is concerned, but who knows .... You are probably pretty close to being in one of the biggest nulls in WRGT-DT's pattern :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=29247&rotate=0.00&p0=0.987&p10=1.000&p20=0.987&p30=0.950&p40=0.896&p50=0.833&p60=0.771&p70=0.714&p80=0.663&p90=0.614&p100=0.560&p110=0.496&p120=0.420&p130=0.338&p140=0.267&p150=0.237&p160=0.264&p170=0.317&p180=0.362&p190=0.379&p200=0.362&p210=0.317&p220=0.263&p230=0.236&p240=0.267&p250=0.338&p260=0.420&p270=0.495&p280=0.559&p290=0.613&p300=0.662&p310=0.713&p320=0.770&p330=0.833&p340=0.895&p350=0.950&p360=0.987&

Again, if you're dealing with a weak signal from WRGT-DT, a better antenna or preamp should help, but you'd probably want an antenna with a better F/B ratio if the problem is 1st adajcent channel/receiver selectivity issue for WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT. A preamp isn't going to change the difference in signal levels between WRGT-DT+WXIX-DT coming in off the back side of the antenna. Also keep in mind just because your receiver's signal "meter" may not show a strong signal from WXIX-DT off the back side doesn't mean it isn't still quite strong --- Those things often don't tell you a lot about actual signal strength ...

Good luck+let us know if you have any luck improving things ...

Sounds good to me Jim.

-----------------------

WKEF-DT was flawless last night for HD Alias for me. No Video freezes, no audio dropouts(even DD 5.1 via audio receiver), smooth transistions to/from commercials. I haven't seen that happen for a entire hour of HD programming from WKEF for a LONG time.

Are there any issues with WKEF-DT that would result in a tuner not finding this channel after performing an auto scan? I'm receiving WKEF 22-1 no problem here OTA with my Sammy 360 STB. My next door neighbor isn't though. He's got a brand new Sony A10 with internal tuner and when we scan for channels, 22-1 isn't found.

Are there any issues with WKEF-DT that would result in a tuner not finding this channel after performing an auto scan?

Not that I know of, everything is working fine for 22.1 on all 3 receivers here(Including A Sony XBR960 with internal ATSC receiver), but who knows -- hopefully someone who has one of those sets can chime in.

There should be some sort of signal meter somewhere, and hopefully some sort of way to tune directly/manually to RF channel and check the meter --- if so, what's it showing for 51.3 ?(the channel(51) and MPEG2 program #(.3) WKEF-DT actually broadcasts on).

An Autoscan can't "find it" on 22.1 if there's some sort of reception related issue involved and it can't lock on signal and receive the channel remapping info from the PSIP VCT ( Virtual channel table) the station is sending.

I spent about 2 hours today "tweaking" the antenna.. and I only marginally improved things. WGRT was bouncing in and out of lock.. while 50 and 51 (WKEF and WDTN) were fine.. I found it interesting that the channels in the 50's are faily stable.. but wgrt (30) and whio (41 I belive) tend to bounce around.. weird.. There was a decent breeze today - so that probably had something to do with it. Tonight, all is well.. wgrt signal is fairly stable - about 50 on the signal meter, and the rest are fine - but there is also not much wind tonight...

Another observation.. is it possible that wxix (29) is a culprit? During the day, wxix signal is incredibly strong.. it "registers" a 90 in the meter - thats the same radio shack yagi I have pointed to dayton.. infact, all the cincinnati stations come in fine during the day with the dayton antenna.. wind or no wind.. but at night, the cincinnati stations are not as stong, while the dayton stations are better..

Questions.. I was able to move the antenna up about a foot - if I spend a whole day, I can probably get it on the peak of the house which is another 10 feet up, or I can move it around the house.. - is it worth it??? or should I go with the cm 3021/4221 antenna with the preamp?? would that be a better solution and less suseptable to the multipath or whatever is messing me up with the current radio shack yagi that I have???

thanks

jim



Tonight, things are good.. nice and solid on all stations.. cincinnati and dayton (except fox 45) .. I think the problem last week that was across the board was the extreme wind..

last night, the wind was not as bad, but the dayton stations were taking a hit - so I have a feeling it has something to do with the dynamic multipath.. so here is my solution - 1) recheck to make sure nothing came loose connection wise, 2) move the dayton antenna up or down on the mast - ie.. try and tweak it and 3) and that cm amp

sound like a good plan?

jim

Not that I know of, everything is working fine for 22.1 on all 3 receivers here(Including A Sony XBR960 with internal ATSC receiver), but who knows -- hopefully someone who has one of those sets can chime in.

There should be some sort of signal meter somewhere, and hopefully some sort of way to tune directly/manually to RF channel and check the meter --- if so, what's it showing for 51.3 ?(the channel(51) and MPEG2 program #(.3) WKEF-DT actually broadcasts on).

An Autoscan can't "find it" on 22.1 if there's some sort of reception related issue involved and it can't lock on signal and receive the channel remapping info from the PSIP VCT ( Virtual channel table) the station is sending.

I've left a message with my neighbor and will let you know how things work out. It seems to me that channel 51 showed up in his guide after the 'auto program' (scan) and I never thought to look at that channel.

Another observation.. is it possible that wxix (29) is a culprit? During the day, wxix signal is incredibly strong..


It might, theoretically If it's about 46db stronger than WRGT-DT 30 signal(wouldn't seem likely for your location - as your antenna will be rejecting a good amount of WXIX-DT signal off the back === but again you look to be in WRGT-DT's antenna pattern null so it's probably weaker than most other dayton stations), Theoreticially it could cause problems. Practically, how much difference in signal level between WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT on 1st adjacent channels would depend upon the performance, selectivity wise of your particular receiver.

You'll probably need to add add'l attenuation in feedline and see at what point you lose reception/etc from any given station to get some sort of an idea of how strong/weak the signals actually are, fairly weak signals can actually produce quite high readings on the signal meters on most receivers, and strong signals can produce low readings if multipath/interference/etc are an issue.



Questions.. I was able to move the antenna up about a foot - if I spend a whole day, I can probably get it on the peak of the house which is another 10 feet up, or I can move it around the house.. - is it worth it??? or should I go with the cm 3021/4221 antenna with the preamp?? would that be a better solution and less suseptable to the multipath or whatever is messing me up with the current radio shack yagi that I have???

thanks

jim

Pretty much impossible to answer any of those really ... You'll just have to experiment to find out what works best. Keep receipts so you don't have to spend a fortune to do it .... Probably best to take a easy going, but patient approach to it as well, otherwise it might turn out to seem to be an overly frustrating endeavor ... Or, I suppose you could take the other approach and rather than trying to improve things/mess around with it instead you could just watch the Cincy stations year around and Dayton+Cincy only when the leaves are on ....

So, just guessing, but Sounds like preamp might be a good idea(on the other hand, if WXIX-DT+receiver selectivity issues IS actually an issue, preamp would likely be a bad idea) - but preamp won't solve multipath problems ...

I'd also guess Moving the antenna around(perhaps even to a different spot altogether -- if it's more convienient Maybe even try it inside aimed out a window or sitting on your deck/portch or something temporarily just to see if you can get the problem to go away at all) to try to find a "sweet spot" for it for best reception would probably be the best thing, then once you find that sweet spot if your still having a bit of a problem then you might want to think about different antenna. On 30+41 though, I wouldn't think the CM4221/3021 would really give you a lot more performance(if any, things might be worse), but hard to say, and then again, who knows. Since CM4221 as a 4-bay bowtie is actually stacked "array" of 4 antennas, there may be a sweet spot for it already on your mast, although on the other hand, some folks report better results with Yagis/corner reflector when shooting through trees/dynamic multipath is an issue .....

Good luck and Let us know how it goes ...

Not that I know of, everything is working fine for 22.1 on all 3 receivers here(Including A Sony XBR960 with internal ATSC receiver), but who knows -- hopefully someone who has one of those sets can chime in.

There should be some sort of signal meter somewhere, and hopefully some sort of way to tune directly/manually to RF channel and check the meter --- if so, what's it showing for 51.3 ?(the channel(51) and MPEG2 program #(.3) WKEF-DT actually broadcasts on).

An Autoscan can't "find it" on 22.1 if there's some sort of reception related issue involved and it can't lock on signal and receive the channel remapping info from the PSIP VCT ( Virtual channel table) the station is sending.

Thanks for your help Jeff. My neighbor's able to watch WKEF-DT on 51-3.

Hello from the Fort Wayne market; does anyone else notice significant lip sync problems on WBGU 27-1? I was watching Austin City Limits yesterday and the video was far enough behind the audio to detract from the show (that and the fact that The Killers aren't the best live band, but I digress). I checked in on the channel tonight and the sync problems were still there. The other subchannels don't seem to suffer as much.

Although "Lima" is in the title of this thread, there's only one person who posts in here that lives that far north of Dayton. I'm positive no one in the greater Dayton area can receive WBGU...

I take it you're aware of the Ft Wayne thread. I'm pretty sure I recall seeing a Toledo one too. It wouldn't hurt to ask in either of those as well.

I'm positive no one in the greater Dayton area can receive WBGU...


I'm sure there are folks North of Dayton which can receive WBGU. I receive WBGU/WBGU-DT occasionally from 111 miles via Troposcatter DX.

Attached is screenshot I took of WBGU-DT on 3/29/05.

My neighbor's able to watch WKEF-DT on 51-3.

It really should remap to 22.1, though ... For some reason sounds like his receiver didn't pick up the PSIP info from the station when he ran his autoscan - don't know if that was on WKEF's end(for instance if he happened to run the autoscan when their PSIP was down - although I haven't noticed that here lately), or his receiver is having issues with WKEF's PSIP.

OTA reception at 100+ miles ?? I had no idea it could reach that far !

Yeah, I was thinking it was a PSIP issue too. We did the autoscan November 5th and 13th with the same results so it may be his tv's internal receiver. Strange. Does anyone else have a 42" or 50" Sony RP LCD TV (model # ends in A10) with this issue? Again WKEF-DT (OTA directly into UHF/VHF jack) is not showing up on 22-1 but does show up on 51-3.

OTA reception at 100+ miles ?? I had no idea it could reach that far !

It can go a lot farther than that under the right circumstances. See the "signal propagation" section at following site for how it happens.

http://www.dxfm.com/

I switched over to OTA WKEF 22.1 last night during MNF as my TWC 8300 DVR rebooted itself for the umpteenth time this month, and was very pleasantly surprised to find that the every seven second audio "burp" was gone. I haven't watched WKEF for at least a week and a half, so I don't know when the issue was resolved, but it seems that I can now view and hear real HD programming from ABC instead of the crap that WCPO 9 is trying to pass off. Many thanks to the WKEF Engineering staff!

Cincy Kev

Any word on the firmware upgrade for the SA8300HD DVRs? I seem to remember reading a few months back that an upgrade was scheduled for early November. As of Nov 11, I was told "We plan to push the new code in Dayton in the next few weeks."

I see Time Warner is raising rates again... :mad:

Has anyone gotten Time Warner HD to work with the Panasonic PT-50LC13 widescreen TV? When I push "Aspect" it says Full..and I can't switch that..I have it on Cinema and Warm but can't switch that setting. Some Stations are fullscreen but some are not..in varying ways. Please help me!

Some tv's (including my Sony RP LCD) lock into full screen mode when receiving a 720p or 1080i resolution. Unfortunately that includes 480p programming that has been upconverted to those resolutions. If that's the case with your tv, you most likely have to downconvert to 480p (in the TW STB menu) if you want to stretch the picture. I personally send everything in its native resolution to my display and watch non-HD programming with the black bars.

As of Nov 11, I was told "We plan to push the new code in Dayton in the next few weeks."


Good news! Thanks. (I won't be holding my breath, however).

I see Time Warner is raising rates again... :mad:

Was that in this months bill? I'll probably get mine today to see the good news :(

This weekend I plan on spending some time with moving the antenna - I have a few options.. I can move it up about 12 feet and over about 15 feet or I can move it down.. if you were me, what would you try first.. is the digitial multipath from the trees solved at higher points or it is finding the sweet spot at maybe a lower elevation? I just want to have a plan, because if I have to go up I will have to rig something to get on the garage roof to get to the peak of the second level.

thanks

jim

It might, theoretically If it's about 46db stronger than WRGT-DT 30 signal(wouldn't seem likely for your location - as your antenna will be rejecting a good amount of WXIX-DT signal off the back === but again you look to be in WRGT-DT's antenna pattern null so it's probably weaker than most other dayton stations), Theoreticially it could cause problems. Practically, how much difference in signal level between WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT on 1st adjacent channels would depend upon the performance, selectivity wise of your particular receiver.

You'll probably need to add add'l attenuation in feedline and see at what point you lose reception/etc from any given station to get some sort of an idea of how strong/weak the signals actually are, fairly weak signals can actually produce quite high readings on the signal meters on most receivers, and strong signals can produce low readings if multipath/interference/etc are an issue.




Pretty much impossible to answer any of those really ... You'll just have to experiment to find out what works best. Keep receipts so you don't have to spend a fortune to do it .... Probably best to take a easy going, but patient approach to it as well, otherwise it might turn out to seem to be an overly frustrating endeavor ... Or, I suppose you could take the other approach and rather than trying to improve things/mess around with it instead you could just watch the Cincy stations year around and Dayton+Cincy only when the leaves are on ....

So, just guessing, but Sounds like preamp might be a good idea(on the other hand, if WXIX-DT+receiver selectivity issues IS actually an issue, preamp would likely be a bad idea) - but preamp won't solve multipath problems ...

I'd also guess Moving the antenna around(perhaps even to a different spot altogether -- if it's more convienient Maybe even try it inside aimed out a window or sitting on your deck/portch or something temporarily just to see if you can get the problem to go away at all) to try to find a "sweet spot" for it for best reception would probably be the best thing, then once you find that sweet spot if your still having a bit of a problem then you might want to think about different antenna. On 30+41 though, I wouldn't think the CM4221/3021 would really give you a lot more performance(if any, things might be worse), but hard to say, and then again, who knows. Since CM4221 as a 4-bay bowtie is actually stacked "array" of 4 antennas, there may be a sweet spot for it already on your mast, although on the other hand, some folks report better results with Yagis/corner reflector when shooting through trees/dynamic multipath is an issue .....

Good luck and Let us know how it goes ...

Jim,

Last year when I was having problems receiving the Dayton channels, I bought a 10' pole with tripod and that solved all my problems. That raised my antenna about 6' from where it was before. You might try moving it to another location first if that's easier for you.

This weekend I plan on spending some time with moving the antenna - I have a few options.. I can move it up about 12 feet and over about 15 feet or I can move it down.. if you were me, what would you try first.. is the digitial multipath from the trees solved at higher points or it is finding the sweet spot at maybe a lower elevation?

Lower might be better, it's hard to say. I'd probably start by moving it up or down in smaller increments. Although I think you said you'd already tried that, so dusterscott's suggestion might be a better one. 6" makes a big difference here in some cases, and even 3" makes some difference.

Probably depends upon the circumstances, and it's just a wild guess but I'm almost thinking lower can be better when it comes to dynamic multipath caused by tree limbs blowing around as the lower you get, the less the trees move in the wind, and generally the less branches there are(with mature trees anyway) ... I'd thought at one time I'd found the "sweet spot" at 28' here, but later I found out when the wind blew that 22' was better ..... 22' 6" is not for WDTN-DT/WKEF-DT, quite amazing the difference 6" makes here when the wind is blowing ......

Update:

Then again, about the raising/lowering --- I should mention My "main" UHF antenna(I usually use it For Cincy but it's on a rotor and can be aimed anywhere) is at 38 ft(and has been since I set it in 1993 for a sweet spot for what is now WOTH 25 Cincinnati), and it has no problems whatsoever with this, for Cincy, Dayton or anywhere else, no matter how hard the wind is gusting or leaves on/off/etc - even though most trees(and there are 1,000's of them) where I'm at are 60~80FT+ tall, and even the ground(hills/etc) in some directions is higher than the antenna a few hundred feet out. I added the Dayton antenna several years ago as more of a convienience so as not to have to use the rotor for Dayton, and there's probably a better spot for it somewhere else other than side mounted to the same tower the main TV antenna is on, but there's also a big "convienience" factor in having it there(for grounding purposes/running feedlines/etc) .... [end update]

The multipath is there for analog signals as well, you'll see it as ghosts, ghosts that "move around" with the wind(or "flutter" as an aircraft flies through the signal path) if it's dynamic multipath .... Problem is though, it can(and often is) a very frequency specific thing, you can't necessarily look at WRGT 45 analog ghosts and place your antenna to "fix them" for instance and necessarily also "fix" the multipath for WRGT-DT 30 or even WDTN-DT 50/WKEF-DT 51/etc ...

Another thing I have also noticed with this issue, is that it seems to me(at least with the tree species I'm dealing with here -- Most of the closest trees(about 150~250FT away) in that direction are Yellow Poplar(tuliptree), Basswood, Red/Silver maple+Black Walnut) that this issue seems to perhaps be even more problematic in either late oct/early Nov(depending upon when the leaves have fell, it's usually earlier here than it was this year) and late feb/Early March than between dec+feb when the wind is blowing, and I wonder if it might be influenced to some degree by the sap moving around in the trees ....

Was that in this months bill? I'll probably get mine today to see the good news :( The bill only mentions a price change for "limited" and "classic" tiers for me. Oddly, it lists the increase for limited as "$0.00". :D I don't recall how much classic increased. They only *have* to list these because of their franchise agreements. All the other tiers (DigiPics) also increased but they don't have to announce those. DigiPic 2000, for example, went from $69.99 to $76.99, as I recall. Their website, as of a few days ago, had both the old and new pricing mixed in different spots.

It's seriously time to drop to the "Rakesh S" package or even lower. I'm probably going all the way down to Limited (2-25 + 707-756 ... will keep my HD-DVR) and consider adding the HD tier ($6.95/month). Any other combination, Classic included, gets you right back up to $50-60/month because of the higher DVR fee plus having to "pay" for the set-top.

I still contemplate picking up an HD receiver (would love to run across a low-cost used one, an open-box, etc) but often have questions about the antenna requirement. At antennaweb.org, if I tell it I have no obstructions and a single or multiple-story house, it recommends a "small, multi-directional" antenna (I'm 5.5 to 6.0 miles from the tower "farm" ... I'm in East Dayton). If I tell it there are obstructions, it jumps to a "medium directional" antenna.

Dumb question time:

With a "small" antenna, i.e. a Silver Sensor, what housing material can it pick up through ?? I have aluminum siding. I can pick up analog signals using a $8 antenna (just like this one, http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062018&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&allCount=18&fbn=Price%2F%246.00+-+%249.99&fbc=1&fr=StorePrice%2FRSK%2F00000600%2F00000999&parentPage=family) located next to my TV on the ground floor. I don't know if picking up analog signals is related or 100% unrelated to picking up digital signals.

Locating an antenna in my attic is an option but then I've read about roofing shingles causing problems. There's also the aluminum siding issue again.

I need to my myself a post-it note to see if can visually see the antennas from the 2nd story or attic. If I can, what does that help ??

Does anyone know when the 8300HD DVR will become available to Dayton,OH 45458..my local office is Kettering. Just got installed yesterday and they brought me the explorer 8000. I'm on Time Warner.

The 8300HD is available and has been for at least 6 months, if not longer (maybe close to a year). I have one myself as do others here in this thread.

If you don't specify the 8300HD, they can certainly give you the 8000HD as it *is* an HD-DVR, just nowhere as good of one ! :) GO to the Kettering office with your 8000HD and ask to swap it for an 8300HD. They may be out of stock of the 8300HDs... Don't call and ask 'cause they don't have that information.

I called and they said it's out of stock..yesterday.. I'll call again today and say I want to swap it out. boohoo. so the 8300 can stretch HD? How do you go about hooking up 2 cords..1 for the SD and 1 for HD?

With a "small" antenna, i.e. a Silver Sensor, what housing material can it pick up through ??


It CAN work through Pretty much anything, it just depends upon the circumstances. Basements aren't usually a good place for an antenna, for instance. Putting antenna indoors(as a rule of thumb) will attenuate signals by about 20db(little less around windows with "plain old glass"), BUT at your distance you should have plenty of signal from Dayton and if signal strength were the only possible issue, it would be easy to predict excellent reception for your location. Multipath however, is another thing entirely, and it's likely to be more of an issue for indoor antenna than is the case outdoors no matter what the circumstances.

One of the important "basics" of antennas is that the more directional it is(meaning you'll want to usually aim such a directional antenna right at the towers - which shouldn't be a problem for you since all the Dayton TV stations(except WWRD-LP 55 "gospel Music channel) transmit from the same antenna farm), the more gain it has+the better it can reject multipath -- Note that multipath has often been noted to be a particularly difficult problem with our current crop of receivers in such close proximity to the towers as say, 8 miles or less.

Lots of great info on antennas+reception here:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html


I have aluminum siding. I can pick up analog signals using a $8 antenna (just like this one, http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062018&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&allCount=18&fbn=Price%2F%246.00+-+%249.99&fbc=1&fr=StorePrice%2FRSK%2F00000600%2F00000999&parentPage=family) located next to my TV on the ground floor. I don't know if picking up analog signals is related or 100% unrelated to picking up digital signals.


It's 100% related. It doesn't "work" any differently as far as how the signal travels through the airwaves/etc, RF is RF and photons are photons and a wave is a wave ...... The main differences are the signal is modulated a bit differently+the information carried is digital form. The RF signal itself for DTV is not "digital", only the information carried is. What is also an important difference from the reception point of view is that the digital station is broadcasting on a different channel (such as 41 for WHIO-DT, 7 for WHIO analog), and for instance, multipath issues are often very frequency specific. Not much of an issue for Dayton, but the digital stations also broadcast from a different transmitting antenna from a slightly different height on the tower --

That being said, GENERALLY speaking, if you are getting good, reasonably ghost/snow free analog UHF reception of say Dayton analogs 16,22,26,40,45(40 is Low power so if it's a little "snowy" don't worry too much), chances are good you'll get good digital reception as well with your current antenna. However, for an indoor antenna, silver sensor would seem to be a good choice for an "upgrade" for you. It's UHF only(all the Dayton digitals are UHF), and of a good Log periodic design -- making it quite directional, but doesn't have a lot of gain(about 6db across the band - since you're in "city grade" signal area however, gain shouldn't be an issue). Generally, while it's true that "bigger is better"(generally the bigger an antenna is, the more gain+directivity it can have) - Since UHF TV band involves much shorter wavelength than VHF, a UHF antenna doesn't have to be anywhere near as big ....

Keep in mind, antennaweb doesn't make predictions for indoor antennas.


I need to my myself a post-it note to see if can visually see the antennas from the 2nd story or attic. If I can, what does that help ??

It doesn't, really except perhaps to help you aim a directional antenna towards the towers. Given the transmitting antenna heights of the Dayton stations, their coverage area reaches approx about 55~65 miles from the transmitter site. RF line of sight is not the same thing as optical line of sight on VHF/UHF frequencies.

The bill only mentions a price change for "limited" and "classic" tiers for me. Oddly, it lists the increase for limited as "$0.00". :D I don't recall how much classic increased. They only *have* to list these because of their franchise agreements. All the other tiers (DigiPics) also increased but they don't have to announce those. DigiPic 2000, for example, went from $69.99 to $76.99, as I recall. Their website, as of a few days ago, had both the old and new pricing mixed in different spots.

It's seriously time to drop to the "Rakesh S" package or even lower. I'm probably going all the way down to Limited (2-25 + 707-756 ... will keep my HD-DVR) and consider adding the HD tier ($6.95/month). Any other combination, Classic included, gets you right back up to $50-60/month because of the higher DVR fee plus having to "pay" for the set-top.

D* can't get their new MPEG4 satellites up and working quick enough for me. As soon as they up the bitrate on the HD channels I am long gone from Time Warner. I already moved my internet from RoadRunner to SBC Yahoo ($25/mo., 1 year contract), so moving totally away from TWC won't be any huge problem for me.

so the 8300 can stretch HD? Yes, it can. I can see the PQ go down when you do it though. I've even tried stretching 4:3 programming that is broadcast in 16:9 format by the local station, i.e. Extreme Makeover: Home Edition, and the results aren't nice.
How do you go about hooking up 2 cords..1 for the SD and 1 for HD? You connect 'em :D Seriously, that's all there is to it. The 8000HD only outputs on one output at a time; the 8300HD doesn't have that limit. I tried that too but it was too much trouble to then have to switch inputs on the TV. I could NEVER get my wife or kids to do that, not that I even tried to "teach" them.

Are the cords they provided all you need to make the change? Just switch a cord around really? Or need new cords to do it

I certainly didn't have any plans to use that cheapo antenna but I guess I'd sure try it ! Any recommendations on a low-cost -- used is okay -- HD receiver ?? It would really only be a "backup" I think so I will NOT invest a lot in it.

Reason I asked about "line of sight" was that antennaweb asks about obstructions. I do realize that antennaweb is not a definitive source of information too. I have the KYES page open in another tab and will read it when I'm done typing....

Are the cords they provided all you need to make the change? Just switch a cord around really? Or need new cords to do it When I got my 8000HD, the installer gave me a set of component cables (and power). They won't give you "extra" cables that you aren't normally using. When you swap boxes, swap JUST the box. Keep your remote, power cord, component cables, etc.

Ahh-- nobody has any 8300's what yall suggest? They checked all but the Poe Avenue in Dayton.. hmmrmm

Do you feel like driving ?? You could try Kettering, Leo St, Poe Ave yourself. The people in the call centers don't know what's available at different locations so you can trust what they tell you if you want to....

Try Sound Waves south of the Dayton Mall. Well, you can call them because you can get someone IN THAT LOCATION who can physically look.

Yipee, Fairborn has a few they said. Will rush there after work! Hopefully make it intime.. So I just switch out the box? Will I have to program it?

Program it ?? How do you program them ??

You plug it in and odds are it won't be authorized... this happened to me a number of times... You'll then call TW and tell them the error message that you'll read off the TV. They'll "hit" the box and then it will work. Of course if you're lucky, you'll won't have to do this step.

How are you calling individual locations ?? They list 294-6400 as the phone # for all of them.

I'm not they called for me..I called like 10x and finally found the box =). Thanks for the info.

I certainly didn't have any plans to use that cheapo antenna but I guess I'd sure try it ! Any recommendations on a low-cost -- used is okay -- HD receiver ?? It would really only be a "backup" I think so I will NOT invest a lot in it.


There's a thread in hardware area about a close out receiver RS has for $89. Don't know if any stores around here have any left. Other than that, there's the USDTV/Hisense receiver at Walmart(It was $199 last one I bought last summer) or EBAY/etc - some receivers have been reported to handle multipath+sensitivitiy/selectivity better than others, but for the most part we aren't talking about big differences+it's usually best to take care of such issues at the antenna end IMO anyway.

You might start looking at cable as the back up however once you start also watching NBC+WB HD from Dayton OTA, and if you have any luck with Cincy or Columbus OTA(much more likely if you get the antenna outdoors w/ rotor, but we've had folks in Dayton with indoor antennas watching Cincy and folks in N KY watching Dayton) the add'l programming such as different NFL HD games/etc .......


Reason I asked about "line of sight" was that antennaweb asks about obstructions.

Well, the obstructions that are usually a problem is terrain obstructions when your on the wrong side of a big hill from the tower, and you can have some obstruction and still have no problem(generally, the higher the frequency/channel/shorter the wavelength the more problem a bit of terrain issue can be).

Obviously, if you are 6 miles from the tower, the hill is probably going to have to be awfully big to be an issue(and you'll have to be near the bottom of the opposite side of it) and given the topography of Dayton I don't know of too many circumstances where that would be the case - There are some places in Cincinnati that are as close as 4 miles from the towers which are obstructed however.

Large buildings could be an issue as well. It's nothing like DBS/Satellite, because with DBS, the frequencies are very high(up above 10GHZ)/the wavelentghs are VERY short, and the transmitted power very low -- all of which combine to make ANY sort of obstruction a "no go" with DBS+even heavy rain can effect those wavelengths.

Oh forgot to mention --- You'd asked about aluminum siding -- could be a multipath issue especially I suppose, but that doesn't necessarily mean OTA reception won't work -- IF it's working for analog OTA, there's no reason why it can't work for digital as well .... Getting the antenna near a window facing the towers is often a good spot however, and for the attic aspalt shingles/wood shouldn't cause a problem other than attenuation issues ..... best to get a little extra coax in any event, as finding a "sweet spot" for reception the antenna can be very important - There can often be little "hot spots" and "dead spots" for good reception everywhere, and especially so from indoors where multipath is likely to be more of an issue ... chances are that spot may not be near your TV - then again, it might be if it's working for the Dayton Analog UHF stations for you ....

Hello,

I am trying to find out if anyone else has had any problems receiving 745 and 722 on TWC. I have an 8300HD box and 722 was out tonight for both Lost and Invasion and it appeared 745 went down as well. This problem happened to me two weeks ago as well. I was getting all of the other channels HD and SD fine.

Could this possibly be a problem only with my box? I am in Centerville (45459).

Also I noticed that while in DIAG mode 726, the WB HD channel is showing up again. The HD feed was coming through tonight on both One Tree Hill and Related.

Thanks

Yep, 722 was dead last night for me, too. I was all set to get mad at the 8300HD for not recording Lost, but it's hard to blame it when there's nothing to record! Luckily I checked early and switched the recording to channel 11.

Same deal with 722 for me last night. Can any of the OTA-ers confirm that WKEF-DT was fine for them during prime time yesterday? Just want to confirm that it's a TWC issue.

Phil

No problems last night from WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT OTA that I noticed -- I wasn't tuned to either station for any period beyond about 15 minutes in length last night, however and only checked WRGT-DT for a couple of brief periods.

lost on wkef had 1 dropout at the 19 minute mark.. but that was probably due to my antenna situation which I hope to rectify this weekend

jim

Glad that I wasn't the only one that couldn't get Lost........Generally, it just comes naturally :D

I decided to do another channel scan now that all the leaves are down and I am now able to pick up the big 4 stations out of Dayton. I now have every intention to watch WKEF when I can watch shows live, the difference is night and day. The second priority is WDTN and then WHIO for their 5.1 capabilities.

I'm happy to hear that it seems the drop out problems WKEF was having, seem to have gone away.

Also I noticed that while in DIAG mode 726, the WB HD channel is showing up again. The HD feed was coming through tonight on both One Tree Hill and Related.

Thanks

Time Warner has been doing this on and off again for about a year, if not longer. It's currently been on for a couple of months straight. What I've found is that if you have a DVR, you can setup a manual recording of a show on 726, and the box does not have to be on, nor in diag mode to record it. It only has to be in diag mode to setup the recording, or to view it live. It pisses me off to no end that TW won't add this to their regular channels, as half the shows i watch are on the WB

It pisses me off to no end that TW won't add this to their regular channels... Does it also piss you off that WBDT won't allow them to add it ?? It works both ways.... Complain to WBDT. Complain to advertisers on WBDT.

Does it also piss you off that WBDT won't allow them to add it ?? It works both ways.... Complain to WBDT. Complain to advertisers on WBDT.


If TWC isn't allowed to add it, then how come they are allowed to add it in DIAG mode? That doesn't make much sense.

My guess is they (engineering) have it ready to go and can literally "flip a switch" if and when they (TWC) and WBDT come to an agreement. Face it, 98% of their customers do NOT know the channel is available in 'diag' mode, let alone know what 'diag' mode is !

My guess is they (engineering) have it ready to go and can literally "flip a switch" if and when they (TWC) and WBDT come to an agreement. Face it, 98% of their customers do NOT know the channel is available in 'diag' mode, let alone know what 'diag' mode is !

But it seems to me that if WB was not allowing TWC to broadcast it, then even having it in DIAG mode would be illegal.

Man, I wish we could get a straight answer from someone at TWC or WB once and for all.

. It pisses me off to no end that TW won't add this to their regular channels, as half the shows i watch are on the WB

Just curious, why do you need TW for WB HD? WBDT-DT has been doing a fine job providing WB HD+DD 5.1 OTA ..... Same thing with NBC HD/DD 5.1 and WDTN-DT and for the most part the rest of the Dayton stations as of late(the rest I believe are on TW).... No subscription fees, either .....


But it seems to me that if WB was not allowing TWC to broadcast it, then even having it in DIAG mode would be illegal.


It would be if they don't have permission from WBDT to do that -- WBDT is Acme owned Dayton WB affiliate which has the sole rights to distribute WB HD programming(per their affiliate agreement with WB) in Dayton market - It's not WB/tribune they'd directly have the problem with so much probably, it would be WBDT.

Perhaps WBDT/TW have an agreement with them that allows for such "testing" .... Otherwise, it'd be like you setting up a pirate broadcast TV station and broadcasting say, NFL Sunday Ticket games to your neighborhood without permission from NFL or D*, and if it were the case they didn't have such permission, AND WBDT found out they were doing it, certianly WBDT could(and should) give them all sorts of flack about it(and rightly so) ....

But it seems to me that if WB was not allowing TWC to broadcast it, then even having it in DIAG mode would be illegal. Since it's only available in 'diag' mode, I have to agree with Nitewatchman's answer, that's it falls under "testing" and they do have some sort of agreement. Someone scrolling through the guide will NOT see the channel listed. In order to get it, one has to configure the set-top box in a way that TWC will likely NEVER tell you how to do.
Man, I wish we could get a straight answer from someone at TWC or WB once and for all. Every time I've asked my contact about this, he's ignored that part of my e-mail. Often times, WBDT is turned off too. Would you like me to ask him again ?? :D

Just curious, why do you need TW for WB HD? WBDT-DT has been doing a fine job providing WB HD+DD 5.1 OTA ..... Same thing with NBC HD/DD 5.1 and WDTN-DT and for the most part the rest of the Dayton stations as of late(the rest I believe are on TW).... No subscription fees, either .....


My TV doesn't have a built-in tuner, so I don't want to spend the money on another tuner and an antenna to watch one TV station. In addition, I record every show I watch on my DVR, then watch it later without commercials. I'm not sure how I would do that with an OTA signal.

Every time I've asked my contact about this, he's ignored that part of my e-mail. Often times, WBDT is turned off too. Would you like me to ask him again ?? :D

Sure, never hurts to keep asking ;)

My TV doesn't have a built-in tuner, so I don't want to spend the money on another tuner and an antenna to watch one TV station. In addition, I record every show I watch on my DVR, then watch it later without commercials. I'm not sure how I would do that with an OTA signal.

Interesting. So, let me see if I can get this straight. You said half the shows you watch are on the WB. So, I take it, you're willing to pay the cableco whatever amount per month it is for the other half of the shows you watch(I'm presuming perhaps some of those are also available OTA from local stations and NBC, CBS, PBS/etc), but you don't want to spend a few hundred bucks(probably much less than a year's worth cable subscription) for OTA ATSC receiver/antenna for a permanent solution(no other fees other than the hardware) to be able to use OTA? And/or, You're willing to pay whatever amount per month you have to for cable so you can use their DVR hardware rather than get it for free OTA?

I'm not trying to give you are hard time, each to his own but I'm Just amazed that more people don't see the benefits of, and utilize their OTA option .....

Some people like, or would prefer, an all-in-one solution. You forgot to mention the cost of an OTA DVR too. Please don't suggest a VCR either. Mine is on a shelf in the basement and will stay there if I can do anything about it. Even my 3-1/2 year old daughter knows "no tapes in our house".

I've mentioned considering trying OTA for digital/HD more than once. Every time I do though, I realize, NBC is the only network that I currently "miss" through TWC. I watch *nothing* on WB. So for one channel, and then only 2-3 shows, I keep putting it off...

Question about the basic cable package (aka Rakesh package), you get channels 2-25, correct? So no ESPN2 or Fox Sports, but you do get ESPNHD thanks to the HD tier?

I'm trying to decide whether or not to keep TWC, or start looking to switch to D* (with the new MPEG4 satellites coming online I'd imagine the Dayton DMA will be online in the next year or so).

I'm so sick and tired of TWC raising prices (twice this year now) that I really don't want to stay with them, I feel like they continue to raise prices without offering me any better service (I'm sure there are satellite people who feel the same way). I'd love to have ESPN2HD, but I have seen the "HDLITE" and how soft that picture looks... I'm thinking about just cutting back my service since we generally only use the local stations and ESPN, ESPN2, and Fox Sports now.

Some people like, or would prefer, an all-in-one solution.


That's great, and some people perfer OTA only as a all-in-one solution as well, so what? Just keep in mind there is no requirement for stations to allow their signal to be carried by the local cableco. If you want to watch those stations, and don't want to use OTA until and if such time they are or may be carried on cable then I guess you're just SOL, but yeah, you can whine+complain about it all you want I suppose.


You forgot to mention the cost of an OTA DVR too. Please don't suggest a VCR either. Mine is on a shelf in the basement and will stay there if I can do anything about it. Even my 3-1/2 year old daughter knows "no tapes in our house".

I've mentioned considering trying OTA for digital/HD more than once. Every time I do though, I realize, NBC is the only network that I currently "miss" through TWC. I watch *nothing* on WB. So for one channel, and then only 2-3 shows, I keep putting it off...


First of all, I wasn't asking you, I was asking Koach, because he said 1/2 of the shows he watches are on the WB.

Secondly, the Only current standalone OTA HD DVR I know of is a combo ATSC receiver+DVR. If you're paying $50 a month for cable, I think the cost of it+antenna would still be lower(or about the same) than a year's worth of cable subscription.

Thirdly, I didn't even bring it up, nor did I have any intention to, however, since you mentioned it ...... the benefits of removable media somehow seem to be beyond your grasp, and some of us need that capability. I really don't care what your recording needs are, I'm more concerned with mine. For instance, One can take a DVD or DVHS recording and play it on seperate playback devices in seperate rooms, and even play DIFFERENT recordings on TV's in seperate rooms at the same time. I'm personally using SVHS(which I can record 16x9 NTSC video from HD sources using my receiver's anamorphic "squeeze mode" - so it's not HD, but SVHS is on par with DVD quality) Can you do that with your DVR? Can you do that with your HT PC or over your home Ethernet network(I'd certianly LIKE to be able to set it up so I could use the latter in such a way, but .....) ... Also, I sometimes have the need to archive recordings, I don't think that's possible in any sort of permanent fashion with most DVR's, although it should be - certianly is possible, via Firewire output/etc ....

I'm trying to decide whether or not to keep TWC, or start looking to switch to D* (with the new MPEG4 satellites coming online I'd imagine the Dayton DMA will be online in the next year or so)..

I'd think it will probably be longer than that for Dayton DMA, but I haven't kept up on it. The D* HD receivers have OTA ATSC HD receivers included.

...and don't want to use OTA until and if such time they are or may be carried on cable then I guess you're just SOL, but yeah, you can whine+complain about it all you want I suppose. Hmmm, I don't recall whining and complaining about this lack of carraige by TWC. Would I like it carried ? Yes. Two different things...
First of all, I wasn't asking you, I was asking Koach, because he said 1/2 of the shows he watches are on the WB. Since when do YOU own this thread ?? If you don't like me, or others, commenting on something you post, maybe you need to preface your responses with something like "I'm only responding to user so-and-so. No one else need read or reply to my comments."
Thirdly, I didn't even bring it up... You have in the past. ...... the benefits of removable media somehow seem to be beyond your grasp, and some of us need that capability. I really don't care what your recording needs are, I'm more concerned with mine. As am I. Sometimes, something like TV isn't worth the hassle involved in some methods. Even the things I mention below aren't something I'd bother myself with anytime soon. For instance, One can take a DVD or DVHS recording and play it on seperate playback devices in seperate rooms, and even play DIFFERENT recordings on TV's in seperate rooms at the same time. Can you do that with your DVR? Can you do that with your HT PC or over your home Ethernet network(I'd certianly LIKE to be able to set it up so I could use the latter in such a way, but .....) ... Also, I sometimes have the need to archive recordings, I don't think that's possible in any sort of permanent fashion with most DVR's, although it should be - certianly is possible, via Firewire output/etc .... I can output from my DVR to a VCR or a DVD Recorder. It won't be HD resolution, of course, but it should be near-DVD quality. If I output it to a DVD, I have numerous options such as playing it on DVD players attached to other TVs, storing it on my PC for playback on other PCs in the house or through an XBox (mod'd).

Hmmm, I don't recall whining and complaining about this lack of carraige by TWC.


I meant that "whining and complaining" was an option cable viewers have who want WBDT-DT on cable, not you, as in *you* personally. Perhaps I should have used other words, but I don't know what other option you would have. However, Seems to me you've advocated that yourself, recently -- here's a quote from you from last page.


Does it also piss you off that WBDT won't allow them to add it ?? It works both ways.... Complain to WBDT. Complain to advertisers on WBDT.



Would I like it carried ? Yes. Two different things...


Personally, I'd like nothing more everyone to be able to get all the HD they want via whatever delivery method(s) they wish to use as well, whether it be a single "option" or multiple options .... And, I'd imagine when it comes to Dayton area cable carriage of WBDT-DT/WDTN-DT, that will likely eventually happen.

However, on the other hand, I don't think a lot of people realize that they even HAVE an OTA option, that it is the lowest cost option and that it can be quite useful no matter what other "options"(if any) one also chooses. If I had the cable option available to me at all and chose to use it, I'd certianly also be using OTA as well, for instance for reception of out-of market stations -- sometimes with "alternate" programming via the same network that isn't available from the "local" station -- such as the end of the steelers game yesterday on WHIO and beginning of bengals-colts game on WKRC .....


Since when do YOU own this thread ?? If you don't like me, or others, commenting on something you post, maybe you need to preface your responses with something like "I'm only responding to user so-and-so. No one else need read or reply to my comments."


Come on man. You're free to respond to my posts, including comments to others in any way you wish.

My point was that, since you were commenting on comments I made in MY post, I was clarifying that I was not asking about why *you* don't utilize your OTA option(because *you* brought it up that in your case, it's only NBC your interested in that's not available on cable and only a "couple of shows",etc.), I was asking why Koach did not want to use OTA, given that he said 1/2 the shows he watches were on WB.


Sometimes, something like TV isn't worth the hassle involved in some methods. Even the things I mention below aren't something I'd bother myself with anytime soon.


I agree. For me, ridiculously high monthly bills for subscription TV services, or for an "all in one option" are way too much hassle.


I can output from my DVR to a VCR or a DVD Recorder.

It won't be HD resolution, of course, but it should be near-DVD quality. If I output it to a DVD, I have numerous options such as playing it on DVD players attached to other TVs, storing it on my PC for playback on other PCs in the house or through an XBox (mod'd).

Thanks for the info and for the correction. I didn't realize that. I haven't gone investigating it, but most posts I had seen concerning DVR's(Including TW's) seemed to indicate they didn't have that capability.

Interesting. So, let me see if I can get this straight. You said half the shows you watch are on the WB. So, I take it, you're willing to pay the cableco whatever amount per month it is for the other half of the shows you watch(I'm presuming perhaps some of those are also available OTA from local stations and NBC, CBS, PBS/etc), but you don't want to spend a few hundred bucks(probably much less than a year's worth cable subscription) for OTA ATSC receiver/antenna for a permanent solution(no other fees other than the hardware) to be able to use OTA? And/or, You're willing to pay whatever amount per month you have to for cable so you can use their DVR hardware rather than get it for free OTA?

I'm not trying to give you are hard time, each to his own but I'm Just amazed that more people don't see the benefits of, and utilize their OTA option .....

OTA does not allow me to get TNT HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, nor all of the digital channels i watch. It also does not allow me the option of using a DVR (that I know of). So as of right now, that is not an option.

OTA does not allow me to get TNT HD, HBO HD, Showtime HD, nor all of the digital channels i watch.


Interesting. If you're watching all of that as well, you must watch all the WB shows since you said it's 1/2 the shows you watch ....

OTA DTV/HD is all "digital", BTW.


It also does not allow me the option of using a DVR (that I know of). So as of right now, that is not an option.

Sure it's an option. You don't have to get rid of cable to use OTA as well. Quite a number of folks on this thread, and Cincinnati thread use both in fact. You just don't want to USE that option for the reasons you've already told us, which is fine - I was just wondering why you don't want to use OTA to watch WB HD, that's all.

I think the OTA HD receiver+DVR is LG LST 3510 but don't quote me on that model #, that may be their DVD recorder+ATSC receiver. HD Sat DVR's also have OTA receivers(and can be used for the OTA stations), but I think in most, if not all cases require being able to download the Guide info off the satellite(even though OTA stations send their own guide info via OTA via PSIP. HOpefully, there will be more OTA HD recording options/DVR's that become available as time progresses and the FCC ATSC tuner mandate goes into full effect....

update: Seems to me, what would really work nice for a lot of folks would be if the cable STB's(including their DVR's) had OTA DTV/HD reception capability, so at least most their viewers could pick up and utilize HD from the local stations they aren't carrying on their cable system(because they can't work out a deal with the station for carriage for "whatever reasons") in a "convienient" fashion ... What difference should it make so much really to the cableco HOW you are receiving the local stations as long as you are still subscribing to their services? They could even have their "professional" installers install your antenna for you .... Well, unless in your case, you decide you're paying too much for cable and primarily watch programming from the local broadcast stations/broadcast nets ....

Interesting. If you're watching all of that as well, you must watch all the WB shows since you said it's 1/2 the shows you watch ....

OTA DTV/HD is all "digital", BTW.


We watch quite a bit of shows on the WB. And when I was referring to the digital channels, I was referring to my 13 HBP channels, 9 showtime channels, plus the digital tier that consists of about 100 channels that ar ein digital (not HD) that are only available via cable and satellite.

We watch quite a bit of shows on the WB. And when I was referring to the digital channels, I was referring to my 13 HBP channels, 9 showtime channels, plus the digital tier that consists of about 100 channels that ar ein digital (not HD) that are only available via cable and satellite.

OTA digital is not all HD either. 14 of the 15 Cincinnati/Dayton area digital stations do HD(CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, PBS, WB), but several of them also multicast SD digital, such as WPTD-DT thinkTV dayton, which runs 4 SD multicast services during the day, and 1HD+2SD at night. You should also be getting those via TW, as they carry WPTD-DT I believe.

It depends when -- sometimes it's less, sometimes it's more but generally get probably about 20~30 different programming choices via OTA here, including from Low power analog stations(UPN Cincinnati for instance) which haven't went digital yet. Sometimes it's a bit more than that, sometimes a bit less -- For instance, given that you have say, usually the same CBS HD programming on the Cincinnati+Dayton stations during prime time, but on the other hand, you've got 4 PBS HD stations in Cincinnati/Dayton, 2 of which run their own PBS HD schedule rather than the PBS HD national feed.

Anyway, not that you are interested, but for TV programming My family uses OTA primarily - HD when available, then next in importance would be DVD(I'm a big movie person myself, but prefer DVD and hopefully someday HD-DVD over premium movie channels) then, of least importance to us is we also use E* - Dish Network.

For the latter, no locals via sat needed here - We use AT60 package -$26.99 per month+2 Receivers($5 more there unfortunetly), which is really about 80 channels with the NASA-TV's and other Public interest channels and the like - And that's really probably too much to pay for it given the amount of it we watch, especially lately, and if it goes up much more than that I'll likely be canelling it and going back to OTA only(which for the most part we were perfectly happy with until we added E* a little over a year ago) - but, there are times we watch more off "the dish". If we stick with it, One of these days, I'll probably be adding some HD cablenets from E*, right now we don't watch enough programming from ESPN/TNT/Discovery(nor probably would we be watching HDnet/HDNet movies that often) to justify the current $9.99 per month for their "main" HD package and the cost of the HD receivers and/or DVR. We're not interested in the Voom HD channels or premium movie packages, either. Sure though, there are times I'm watching a game on ESPN or something on TNT I wish I had the HD version, then I realize we watch those channels probably, at most about 30~40 hours per year or so total and the thought quicky goes away given the extra cost involved ....

update: Seems to me, what would really work nice for a lot of folks would be if the cable STB's(including their DVR's) had OTA DTV/HD reception capability I would LOVE that ability but I know of *no* cable set-top that has this. I don't see the disadvantage to the cablecos for doing this either other than having to "support" this method of reception. They won't receive any less revenue that I can see either. My best guess is that Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, Pioneer, etc, etc leave the OTA tuner out for one reason: $$$$

My best guess is that Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, Pioneer, etc, etc leave the OTA tuner out for one reason: $$$$

Yeah. I'd think that should be for the most part pretty much a moot point soon however given the "economies of scale" and ATSC tuner mandate and all the talk on captiol hill about subsidizing DTV~analog OTA converters to "speed" the transistion - but, those subsidized receivers probably won't have HD outputs, probably just SD via composite and maybe S-Video and probably won't be digital cable ready, nor of course will they be DVR's .... But, as is the case with "USDTV" now, perhaps there'll still be some option out there for a OTA Only HD Receiver for quite some time to come ....

In a few years it'll probably all be a moot point anyway, though. Who knows, difficult and sometimes dangerous to try to prediect the future, but I'd guess sooner than we might expect, OTA Only HD STB's will go the route of the UHF NTSC OTA STB's of the early 60's, since the tuners will be built in all sets, anyway - I could be wrong, but I sort of doubt completely tunerless HD Monitors will be that prevalent, although that's a loophole in some cases manufactuers are using now to get away with not having to put ATSC receivers in new sets which already have screen sizes that currently apply for tuner mandate.

Since ATSC tuner mandate covers recording devices as well, the OTA DTV STB of the future is probably going to be a VCR, or perhaps more likely low cost DVR, just as some use VCR's for NTSC for projectors/etc now - I'm guessing those will likely be "digital cable ready" as well. Hopefully, for those of us who still have working "HD monitors" by that time there will be HD versions of those available as well - then there's still the broadcast flag and the "analog hole" and downrezzing to be concerned about if your HD monitor has only analog component inputs and not HDMI or whatever new connectors they come up with to obselete your current equipement in hopes you'll buy a new TV ..... Once they get LIL up in most markets, I dunno if the sat providers will still be putting OTA HD/ATSC receivers in their Receivers anymore or not - I hope so, but IF the past is any clue concerning SD/NTSC locals+Sat LIL they probably won't.

For the future and sets with internal ATSC receivers,(most if not almost all will likely be "digital cable ready" with QAM+Cablecard/etc as well), They would still need to put seperate RF input jacks for VHF/UHF and QAM Cable for the "digital cable ready" sets of course, and I wouldn't necessarily count on that happening either, although my Sony XBR with internal ATSC/QAM+Cable card "digital cable ready" set is set up like that ..... Of course, by then it's much more likely the cableco will carry all the in-market stations of interest in most circumstances, but that would still be quite useful for a cable viewer in Dayton to pick up the Cincinnati stations as well ...

I don't see the disadvantage to the cablecos for doing this either other than having to "support" this method of reception. They won't receive any less revenue that I can see either.

Sorry for double posts. What I immediately thought of is that it would be quite an "ironic" situation, as in some ways(negotiations for signal carriage with the stations for instance) I'd think it would actually be advantagous to the cableco, and perhaps not so advantagous for the local broadcasters -- although, it still means more eyeballs for the broadcaster, and generally the ratings are what are all important for them(the commerical broadcasters anyway) ...

We've seen it reported a number of times that in at least some cases, the reason there is an "impass" in getting a deal worked out for cable carriage for some digital stations carrying HD programming is that some stations seem to be asking for compensation($$) for the signal to an extent seemingly that the cable carriage doesn't want to pony up ... The cable company, I'd imagine has the idea that "we have the viewers, so you're going to have to do what we want sooner or later" ...

BUT, put a OTA tuner in a Cable STB, and it seems to me it pretty much solves the problem for the cableco .... The "support" might turn out to often be a problem issue for them though ..... especially if they do actually get into antenna installs - LOL ... Imagine cableco's getting into the business installing MATV systems in MDU's/etc -- wouldn't THAT be a laugh .....

Otherwise, Don't need to pay the station, but can still(and legally) get their HD+other desired programming to the viewers .... at least viewers which don't live in difficult reception circumstances which in another ironic twist was cable's reason for being "developed" .... ..... For that matter, they might even get some "brownie" points on captiol hill+with FCC, for helping to further along the DTV transistion .....

Is anyone experiencing an audio/video synchronization problem during the Kenny Chesney concert on WKEF? Please tell me it's not my receiver.

Did anyone watch Star Wars II last night on FOX (or parts of it) ?? I was rather unimpressed with the picture quality myself. I've never read too many complaints in this thread about our local FOX channel with bit-starvation, sub-channels, etc, etc.

According to many in the Programming forum, the PQ was very, very good.

Only looked at it a couple of times for brief periods, but I didn't notice any difference in HD PQ between WRGT-DT Dayton, WXIX-DT Cincinnati or WDKY-DT Lexington, KY during SW Ep2 last night. I didn't see any problems with PQ except I thought it was perhaps a tad on the soft side, and that it wasn't OAR. The latter being the reason why I wouldn't have watched it unless it could/would have been aired open matte : such as something along the lines of first 2 LOTR movies HD on WB have been - They were aired open matte(and had absolutely fantastic HD PQ BTW), but with an extremely small "crop" of the sides occuring also. I don't imagine SW films are likely even composed for it however, probably just a lot of green screen going on outside of the 2.35:1 frame, but who knows.


Anyway, Since I didn't watch much of it however, if there were any MPEG2 compression artifacts due to too high compression ratio during some bandwidth demanding portions, I probably didn't see that part. I certianly have not seen any sign of that during any other FOX HD.

FOX HD PQ from all its affiliates should be the same. Unlike the other broadcast nets, This is because the stream(MPEG2 video, but even DD 5.1 audio as well) is encoded at ATSC bitrates at the network and using the "splicer" at the affiliate, the network stream is spliced into the local stream, effectively bypassing the local encoder. There doesn't need to be an additional decoding/encoding process at the local affiliate, so you get the stream at your STB just as it left Fox Network, and it isn't(shouldn't be anyway) decoded until it gets to your STB/receiver. The same should be as true via cable as it is via OTA, as the cableco should just be passing along what the station is sending(that's true for all broadcast stations), and also not doing a decode/reenoding process at the cable headend, but who knows what they actually do at TW. Also, The splicer does however also insert the local "Fox45" bug, but from a command sent by network, and without actually decoding/reencoding the stream from the network.

For a Fox station which is multicasting(such as WXIX-DT Cincinnati), it doesn't effect the Fox HD as the multicast service just has available whatever amount of bits out of the 19.39Mb/s available which isn't being used by the Fox HD stream. I think it's probably setup from Fox to make good use of statistical multiplexing, and so that stations have room for 1 multicast SD service. At one time, Engineers at fox affilaties who post on AVS had said Fox sends the Fox HD stream at 15Mb/s Maximum(it of course varies - as it won't need that much during non-bandwidth demanding material), but I'd think it might go higher than that, say during live sports.

Anyway, unless something has changed(who knows but I doubt it) WRGT-DT isn't doing anything differently than explained above according to their chief engineer's comments when I talked to him about it a month or so ago.

Did anyone watch Star Wars II last night on FOX (or parts of it) ?? I was rather unimpressed with the picture quality myself. I've never read too many complaints in this thread about our local FOX channel with bit-starvation, sub-channels, etc, etc.

According to many in the Programming forum, the PQ was very, very good.

I thought PQ was absolutely stunning last night. I was watching it on 19-1 out of Cincinnati though but I don't think there should be any difference between 45-1 and 19-1.

Anyone with TWC watch it ?? Maybe they're too blame, though I doubt it as they supposedly do NOT touch the signal at all. Q of Bandit Z does think that their set-tops degrade the picture... He's the only one I've seen comment on that though. :D

I watched Epsidoe 2 on Fox via Time Warner last night, and thought the PQ was stunning. I actually have 2 HDTVs, and on my 1080i RP CRT, I've never been impresed with Fox's HD. 720p on a 1080i set looks grainy and not very good.

However, I recently purchased a 720p plasma, and now Fox PQ is the best of all the channels. It looks the best on my plasma, and it looks better than any 1080i channels on my RP CRT set.

I watched Episode 2 on my plasma, so I can only comment how it looked on a TV whose native resolution is 720p. Had I watcjed it on my RP CRT set, my opinion may have been different.

My set is a 1080i RP.... Shows on CBS, the CSIs, for example, normally look really good. IMO, better than SWII looked. Shows on Discovery HD are also similarly good.

720p on a 1080i set looks grainy and not very good.


That may be true of some displays which don't natively display 720p, but it certianly isn't true for all of them.

The first thing I'd probably look at is the scaler you're using if you are getting consistantly "soft" or grainy HD from 720p sources on a 1080i native set. For instance, If you are using TW box+sending 1080i from it, you might want to instead try sending 720p from it and letting the set's scaler convert to 1080i and see if you see any difference, or vice versa. There is of course no guarentee the scaler in the set is going to do any better job with the conversion than the scaler in the STB or vice versa. Or, If you're using HDMI, you might want to try component+the above, if for no other reason that sometimes some of these sets can come with "interestingly different" settings set up a the factory in the service menu for different inputs/scan rates/etc.

I guess we will see NE at KC today. How hard can it be to get the right game?

I guess we will see NE at KC today. How hard can it be to get the right game?

I just called WHIO and they are "working on it"

game is on WHIO-DT now, but isn't in HD...

Came back from commercial and in HD now

I had the Giants vs Seahawks game on this afternoon on WRGT and was very impressed. The 720p resolution on a 1080i set doesn't explain why I was unimpressed with SWII the other night...

I had the Giants vs Seahawks game on this afternoon on WRGT and was very impressed. The 720p resolution on a 1080i set doesn't explain why I was unimpressed with SWII the other night...


Video always looks better than film, in my opinion.

Anyone else on TWC Dayton South who normally gets PBS out of Cincinnati (TWC channel 748) not getting it now? Its been a blank grey screen for over a week.

Also, I note that we have gotten an upgrade to 1.8.112 for SA 8300HD users. Firwire has been activated, but I can't record.

Also, I note that we have gotten an upgrade to 1.8.112 for SA 8300HD users. Firwire has been activated, but I can't record. Any idea when it updated ?? I haven't noticed anything different... which can be a good thing !

Video always looks better than film, in my opinion. I thought Lucas has been recording Ep 1-3 on video and not film. IMDB says this:
Technical Specifications for
Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones (2002)

Camera
Sony HDW-F900 (modified by Panavision)
Laboratory
ARRI Digital, Germany
Film length (metres)
3887 m (Germany)
Film negative format (mm/video inches)
Video (HDTV)
Cinematographic process
HDCAM (1080p/24)
IMAX DMR (IMAX version)
Printed film format
35 mm
70 mm (horizontal) (IMAX DMR blow-up)
Digital (Texas Instruments DLP 1280 x 1024, 1.9 : 1 anamorphic)
Aspect ratio
1.81 : 1 (IMAX DMR version) (cropped)
2.35 : 1 (letterbox)

Any idea when it updated ?? I haven't noticed anything different... which can be a good thing !

It happened at leasta week ago -- about the same time 748 stopped working for me.

It happened at leasta week ago -- about the same time 748 stopped working for me.

I lost WCET around the same time, and I don't use a STB. If it was anything besides PBS, I'd be a lot more upset.

Phil

I haven't tried it on the QAM tuner lately but then again I hardly ever watch PBS.

I thought Lucas has been recording Ep 1-3 on video and not film. IMDB says this:

Lucas recorded episodes 2 and 3 in digital, but it's still considered film from what i understand. When I was referring to video vs. film, I meant video as in sports and soap operas, as compared to film for movies, tv shows, etc.

Any idea when it updated ?? I haven't noticed anything different... which can be a good thing !

I noticed it about a week ago. They fixed an issue that has bugged me since the day I upgraded from the 8000 to the 8300. With the 8000 box (and now the 8300 after this software update), when you would scroll ahead in the guide, if you held down the right arrow key, you'd see the day and time scroll across the top, so you knew where you were. The 8300 box originally didn't do this, so when you were scrolling you had no idea where you were, because the time would stay fixed until you let go of the right arrow button

That may be true of some displays which don't natively display 720p, but it certianly isn't true for all of them.

The first thing I'd probably look at is the scaler you're using if you are getting consistantly "soft" or grainy HD from 720p sources on a 1080i native set. For instance, If you are using TW box+sending 1080i from it, you might want to instead try sending 720p from it and letting the set's scaler convert to 1080i and see if you see any difference, or vice versa. There is of course no guarentee the scaler in the set is going to do any better job with the conversion than the scaler in the STB or vice versa. Or, If you're using HDMI, you might want to try component+the above, if for no other reason that sometimes some of these sets can come with "interestingly different" settings set up a the factory in the service menu for different inputs/scan rates/etc.

I've tried everything you suggested on my TV, as well as a few other RP CRTs, and the end result was that Fox was always more grainy than the other channels.

Video always looks better than film, in my opinion.

I like both ... I think PQ varies for a great amount of reasons, and of course it's very subjective thing. Some of it surely has to do with the display/scaler and various "settings" on the user end.

Some of the sharpest, most detailed HD PQ I've seen has been from film transfers(such as say, they Indy Jones movies + Gladiator on ABC HD in 2001 or 2002, LOTR on WB HD last couple of years/etc) and some of the best has been from HD video as well - HD football from Fox(not so much last year, but this year a few of the Fox HD games especially have looked very good)/CBS HD football, 2002 HD winter Olympics on NBC/HDnet, Monsters, INC on ABC HD/etc/etc ....

35 Film does have much higher resolution than HD video, of course, I'm not sure of the exact numbers but I'm pretty sure 16mm film is capable of more resolution than HD as well. But sure, you'll see a lot of "soft"+grainy HD sourced from film, and you'll see soft HD from HD video as well .... Some of it is due to "artistic license", and some of it has to do with the quality of film transfer, although the latter generally seems to be less of an issue these days ....


Lucas recorded episodes 2 and 3 in digital, but it's still considered film from what i understand.


I don't think it's actually "film" in the physical sense unless you're talking about seeing it from a film print in a theatre(rather than in a "digital" theatre), or if the transfer to say, HD was from a film print. At least I wouldn't call it that. Or, If you are just talking about "film" in a general sense, as in saying they are working on the "film"(even if it was captured with CCD's and saved as bits) .......


I've tried everything you suggested on my TV, as well as a few other RP CRTs, and the end result was that Fox was always more grainy than the other channels.


I've never had that issue with the Direct-View CRT's I own, none of which will display 720p natively. I've certianly seen excellent looking 720p+1080i on high end 50" HD plasma's that have looked almost as good, or as good more or less than some hi-end direct-view CRT's(assuming a well-calibrated/aligned set - which is almost a guarentee you won't get out of the box these days, what few models of high-end CRT there are left these days) out there, but nothing yet that's really looked any better.

I dunno what would be inherently different about a RP CRT set where 720p is concerned, I do know that I've never cared for the general "look" PQ from RP CRT's(they all look soft and a bit "mushy" to me for the most part), but then again I've never owned one.

Got to give some props to WKEF for their HD signal lately. I have not noticed their "issues" lately, so hopefully they have worked it out.

As far as Time Warner Cable goes, I received the new firmware update for the 8300HD and have seen a few bugs (so has BuckNut).

1. DD5.1 does not come through after a day or so without rebooting the box. You can manually turn it on through the settings menu, but as soon as you change the channel it goes away. During the football game last night on WKEF I noticed it wasn't DD5.1, but I couldn't reboot it because I was recording something on another channel.

2. Sometimes during playback the video controls stop working (FF, REW, Pause, etc., I'm not sure of what is causing it yet, maybe pausing live events and then playing them a few minutes later?). My wife was watching something yesterday and was unable to pause it when she received a phone call...

(Warning, here comes a rant about TWC)

Time Warner really made me laugh last week on the phone. I called them up to see what kind of deal they could give me to at least become price competitive with Dish network, who is offering me 1 HD box, 1 HD-DVR ($250 price unfortunately), 1 SD-DVR, and 1 SD box for $67 a month (America's Top 120 w/ HD, first 6 months HD free so only paying $57). They offered me 50% off their "new" rates for 3 months, which would drop my bill from $97 to $85. Apparently we are all grandfathered in at their low rates, but their new rates are $170 for their digipic 2000 package with 2 DVR's (I would have to pay $170 per month after 3 months if I kept TWC). I would pay the lease fee for the DVR within 9 months, so the $250 doesn't bother me too much... I do laugh, however, at how they run their business. I already dropped Road Runner because of their service (switched to SBC DSL, best move I ever made!). I'll probably call back this week to verify that their 50% off rate is truely going to be $85, or if it was just some sort of computer mix up in their call center spitting out wrong prices... otherwise I'll be switching to Dish Network very soon, becoming a Time Warner free housthold!

1. DD5.1 does not come through after a day or so without rebooting the box. You can manually turn it on through the settings menu, but as soon as you change the channel it goes away. During the football game last night on WKEF I noticed it wasn't DD5.1, but I couldn't reboot it because I was recording something on another channel.


I have not noticed this at all. Out of curiosity, how do you manually turn this on int he settings menu? I have never seen this option before.


2. Sometimes during playback the video controls stop working (FF, REW, Pause, etc., I'm not sure of what is causing it yet, maybe pausing live events and then playing them a few minutes later?). My wife was watching something yesterday and was unable to pause it when she received a phone call...


I have not noticed this either.

Got to give some props to WKEF for their HD signal lately. I have not noticed their "issues" lately, so hopefully they have worked it out...

Yes, WKEF-DT finally appears to have worked out the bugs that have plagued them for years. There were no video freezes and signal drops at all during last night's MNF game. The only thing that appeared to choke was the Steelers. :(

I became aware of the new firmware for the 8300 when I could skip ahead in the guide very quickly. Previously, this feature was not available and it would only skip ahead 1.5 hours and stop even if you held the button down. Since the firmware upgrade I have noticed the same playback issues that mlbUC mentioned. It happened to me occasionally with the old firmware, but seems to happen with much more regularity now. I seem to notice it most when I am recording and watching the same program at the same time. For example, the other night I recorded and started watching ate the CFL Grey Cup. When I started to play back it skipped right to live and would not rewind or pause. Later, when the recording was finished everything was fine.

Koach, I think you can set the audio output if you hit settings and then hit the A button for more settings. I have had to reboot my box on almost a daily basis to make 5.1 work.

As an aside, after the firmware update I believe the FF controls work a little differently. In FF mode the box does not rewind as far after hitting the play button. In double FF mode the box seems to FF much faster. Has anyone else noticed this or am I crazy?

Time Warner really made me laugh last week on the phone. I called them up to see what kind of deal they could give me to at least become price competitive with Dish network, who is offering me 1 HD box, 1 HD-DVR ($250 price unfortunately), 1 SD-DVR, and 1 SD box for $67 a month (America's Top 120 w/ HD, first 6 months HD free so only paying $57). They offered me 50% off their "new" rates for 3 months, which would drop my bill from $97 to $85. Apparently we are all grandfathered in at their low rates, but their new rates are $170 for their digipic 2000 package with 2 DVR's (I would have to pay $170 per month after 3 months if I kept TWC). I would pay the lease fee for the DVR within 9 months, so the $250 doesn't bother me too much... I do laugh, however, at how they run their business. I already dropped Road Runner because of their service (switched to SBC DSL, best move I ever made!). I'll probably call back this week to verify that their 50% off rate is truely going to be $85, or if it was just some sort of computer mix up in their call center spitting out wrong prices... otherwise I'll be switching to Dish Network very soon, becoming a Time Warner free housthold!

Where did you find that deal on Dish? I am moving to a house and thinking about making the switch, but I don't want to buy any equipment that might become obsolete if they change their compression method.

Standard deal, just call their 800 number.

The new audio option is under Settings, then "A" on the remote.

I haven't noticed the issues you guys are seeing (yet). We did watch an episode of CSI:Miami (the episode about the nail-gun) that was annoying as hell on the audio with a constant scratch-pop noise every 10 seconds or so. We did have the AV receiver on for DD5.1 and I thought it was related to DD5.1 so we turned it off and just used the TV's speakers but it was still happening. Not the same thing though.... It only occurred (for us) on that show too. No one mentioned this when the episode originally aired either, which I'm surprised about !

I'll have to pay attention to the FF-REW sequence as again, we haven't noticed it acting any differently there. That feature is great though, isn't it ?? It's like it *knows* where the show re-starts and rewinds to that point !!

As for TW's pricing, I'm really close to dropping down to ch 2-25 (limited) + their HD tier. I'll keep my HD-DVR so I'll still get the channels in the 700 range.

After mlbUC told me about the DD5.1 issue, I went home and sure enough any channels that are normally in DD5.1 were not coming across properly. A reboot of the device (not a fast process) and voila, I had DD 5.1.

As for the TWC pricing, there is no way they gave you the correct price, i took a look at their yearly pricing sheet (came with the last bill, and showed increases/decreases) and it matches what is on the website. http://www.timewarnercable.com/dayton/products/packages.html The only way I think they could arrive at that price using digipic2000 if they quoted you 50% off of the tv/phone/internet, and then slapped on 10 bucks in taxes. With the TWC CSR's you'll hear something new evertime you call though.

I am still not experiencing any issues. I have not rebooted my box in weeks, and audio is still 5.1, and no pausing, rewinding, or fastforwarding issues.

I have not noticed any issues with the controls becoming inoperative, but I did notice the issues with not passing DD 5.1. I too changed the audio to output DD 5.1, which worked until I changed the channel. Fortunately, they seemed to have fixed it between Monday night's football game and now. I haven't noticed any difference in the fast forward and rewind speeds, but I will pay more attention.

As for the problem when you can't play a currently recording show back from the beginning, that is a problem that periodically and randomly seems to afflict my 8300HD and the same problem which more regularly afflicted its predecessor, the 8000HD. The funniest part is that sometimes the only cure is to stop the recording and start it again, breaking the recording into two parts. Even more humorous is that you get random behavior even though you do the same steps. Hitting List and playing back a show that is recording may result in the show only having a buffer that extends back as far as the live buffer, even though you have recorded two hours worth of the show. Depending upon the alignment of the stars that day, the box may decide to play the show back at the start of the live buffer or it may decide to show you the show live. Subsequent attempts at playback generally result in different result than the previous attempt - hilarious. It's amazing to me that this issue hasn't been addresses yet. Here they are busy adding stupid features like control over the audio output, but they can't fix a bug in the core functionality of the software.

I called TWC today to see what kind of deal I could get. I had the DIGIPIC 2000 with Roadrunner, HD box, HD Tier and the price was $115.00. I called because according to their 'new' prices it should be closer to $110.00 if I was willing to drop the HBO/Showtime. I know not a big difference, but I would take it as we don't watch HBO/Showtime much.

When I called, every combo the guy put in kept coming up to $115.00+. I was polite the whole time, and was just questioning how he was getting his total versus what their price sheet says. Never did get a good answer, so he offers me a one time credit of $45.00 so that in essence I'd be paying only $110.00 for the next 9 months.

I turned that down because I'd rather actually have a lower rate every month and by getting rid of the HBO/Showtime and interective channel guide and music channels I could get the bill down to $110.00 anyway.

I was ready to stick with what I have when the guy said, 'let me see what I can do for you. I don't want you to be unhappy.' He comes back and offers me Digital Access (ch. 2-78), Road Runner, HD Box, and HD Tier for $86.80 after taxes (for 12 months)! I couldn't believe it and had to 'veryify' with him a couple times.

He just kept emphasizing that the $86.80 was only for 12 months and that after that it would go back to 'normal', but so what? That is still saving me $30.00 a month for 12 months ($360 over the year)! I am VERY happy. :D

I was ready to stick with what I have when the guy said, 'let me see what I can do for you. I don't want you to be unhappy.' He comes back and offers me Digital Access, Road Runner, HD Box, and HD Tier for $86.80 after taxes (for 12 months)! I couldn't believe it and had to 'veryify' with him a couple times. I called yesterday myself.... Did you notice they now have an option for downgrading your service ?? I did get $15/month knocked off of my bill .... but I still don't think it's enough (or I'm paying too much even with that discount).

What is "Digital Access", by the way ??

If I drop down to Limited + HD-DVR + HD Tier, my bill would be in the $35/40/month range. Add Earthlink Cable and I'm back up to the ballpark you were quoted. I'm guessing you'll be dropped to Limited also. Classic is $40/month by itself.

In their 2005/2006 rate pamphlet they have an item called 'Digital Access' and 'Digital Access w/ Roadrunner'. It doesn't say what it is, which was one of the reasons I called. I probably shouldn't call it that anymore though, because the guy on the phone didn't know what it was and said it wasn't in their computer. I'm guessing it is channels 2-78 Digital. So when I said my package included Digital Access, I should have just said the standard Digital Cable (2-78).

I'm guessing you'll be dropped to Limited also. Classic is $40/month by itself.

No, they've already made the changes and I am getting 2-78 plus Road Runner, HD Tier, and HD box.

2-78 are the analog channels, so I don't think they would call that package "digital" anything.

What I received is their digital cable package that includes the interactive services (on Demand) and on-screen channel guides, music channels, 2-78, etc. And also the digital stations (707, 722, etc). Plus I got the HD Tier, HD box, and Road Runner.

I know channels 2-78 are analog channels. That's not what 'digital cable' refers to.

They'll be digital soon though...

And not soon enough.

I had someone from TWC call me a week or two back offering me a package that was "Classic" + Digital phone + Digital cable + Roadrunner for $99 or so for a year. I didn't bite since I am moving soon and am weighing the options between TWC/DirecTV/Dish. Costs around $95 for "Classic" plus RoadRunner that I have right now.

I think it just goes to show how much profit they are probably raking in at the 'published' rates.

Well, folks, it's been a while since I hit this thread, but I'll update you all.

I did go with DirecTV a month ago and it's a such a night and day difference from TWC it's not even funny. Once yet again: Even my mom noticed the picture quality differences right away, even on channels like HGTV, Fox, CNN, Weather, etc.



I've kept TWC for locals and basic 2-79 plus the stray HD networks that my HDTV's tuner can pick up (Fox, ABC, CBS.) I've also kept the Road Runner, which I've been very please with. All of this is about $80 a month. Good 'nuff.


It cost me a little extra, but I had a CEDIA certified man (Barry Electronics) install my DirecTV, and you all know what kind of weather and wind we've had this past month? Nothing but perfection here. I never even saw an interruption of signal once, which shocked me.

Of course you'll (or your mom will) notice a difference in those channels. On TWC they're analog whereas they're digital on D*.

I've bought many an item from Barry Electronics... I was probably one of their first customers when I bought a Sony CD car stereo from them when they weren't authorized to sell 'em. They had a small corner of stereo stuff in their air-compressor-stuff store when they were on Elida Rd.

Well.. finally got around to some major tweaking last weekend.. to make a long story short, after moving it up, down, left and right.. the antenna works best sitting on the ground.. lol - or so I thought... We tweaked it on Saturday and I had everything solid - fox 45 was no longer getting multipathed.. so I temporarily rigged it on the ground.. watched the sunday nfl game on fox45 all was well.. then on monday was all set to record prison break on fox45 and flip back and forth to mnf.. but now.. wkef started doing the same stuff as fox45 in the other location.. lol.. oh well.. I guess I just need to keep tweaking as it seems the ultimate sweet spot is about 6 feet off the ground.. now I just need to convince the wife that having an antenna in the hydrangia garden is ok :)

jim


I spent about 2 hours today "tweaking" the antenna.. and I only marginally improved things. WGRT was bouncing in and out of lock.. while 50 and 51 (WKEF and WDTN) were fine.. I found it interesting that the channels in the 50's are faily stable.. but wgrt (30) and whio (41 I belive) tend to bounce around.. weird.. There was a decent breeze today - so that probably had something to do with it. Tonight, all is well.. wgrt signal is fairly stable - about 50 on the signal meter, and the rest are fine - but there is also not much wind tonight...

Another observation.. is it possible that wxix (29) is a culprit? During the day, wxix signal is incredibly strong.. it "registers" a 90 in the meter - thats the same radio shack yagi I have pointed to dayton.. infact, all the cincinnati stations come in fine during the day with the dayton antenna.. wind or no wind.. but at night, the cincinnati stations are not as stong, while the dayton stations are better..

Questions.. I was able to move the antenna up about a foot - if I spend a whole day, I can probably get it on the peak of the house which is another 10 feet up, or I can move it around the house.. - is it worth it??? or should I go with the cm 3021/4221 antenna with the preamp?? would that be a better solution and less suseptable to the multipath or whatever is messing me up with the current radio shack yagi that I have???

thanks

jim

Of course you'll (or your mom will) notice a difference in those channels. On TWC they're analog whereas they're digital on D*.

I've bought many an item from Barry Electronics... I was probably one of their first customers when I bought a Sony CD car stereo from them when they weren't authorized to sell 'em. They had a small corner of stereo stuff in their air-compressor-stuff store when they were on Elida Rd.

They've come a long ways and now they're doing a major remodeling job and bringing in a bunch of new inventory. Good folks!

the antenna works best sitting on the ground.. lol - or so I thought... We tweaked it on Saturday and I had everything solid - fox 45 was no longer getting multipathed.. so I temporarily rigged it on the ground.. watched the sunday nfl game on fox45 all was well..
jim

Weird .... Stranger things have happened I guess ... But, Maybe there *is* something of a 1st adjacent channel issue/receiver selectivity issue going on with WRGT-DT 30/WXIX-DT 29 from your location that's contributing to your difficulties .... IF you can get some sort of an idea of what the difference in signal level is between WRGT-DT 30/WXIX-DT 29,( for instance -- by adding extra attenuation in feedline and seeing how much attenuation it takes before you completely lose a lock from either WRGT or WXIX with antenna aimed at WRGT) It might tell us something IF it's more of a difference than I'd expect would be the case ..... And/Or, if you can try another receiver(you might have already said you did, sorry if I missed that) that might tell you something too ..

Might be more productive though to just keep looking for that sweet spot, or see if you can find someone with a spectrum analyzer(maybe a Sinclair/WRGT/WKEF engineer would be interested in checking it out ... who knows ... doesn't hurt to try I suppose ) so they can look at the waveform+ find a spot for the antenna that minimizes the multipath echoes as much as possible ....

Just some thoughts, FWIW -- which isn't much ;)

lol jeff.. my wife thinks I am nuts.. oh well.. think I have a good spot.. just need to fine tune it... here is a question.. wkef is only at 138kw - any word from them when they will go to 1000?? I emailed them a few times with no response.

Well, folks, it's been a while since I hit this thread, but I'll update you all.

I did go with DirecTV a month ago and it's a such a night and day difference from TWC it's not even funny. Once yet again: Even my mom noticed the picture quality differences right away, even on channels like HGTV, Fox, CNN, Weather, etc.



I've kept TWC for locals and basic 2-79 plus the stray HD networks that my HDTV's tuner can pick up (Fox, ABC, CBS.) I've also kept the Road Runner, which I've been very please with. All of this is about $80 a month. Good 'nuff.


It cost me a little extra, but I had a CEDIA certified man (Barry Electronics) install my DirecTV, and you all know what kind of weather and wind we've had this past month? Nothing but perfection here. I never even saw an interruption of signal once, which shocked me.

Every D* HD customer I know says their HDTV channels are terrible compared to TWC. Maybe the standard SD channels look better on D*, but I'm more concerned about the HD channels myself (hence the reason why I'm interested in E* instead of D*).

I have been and continue to be for the next few days a D* customer as well as a TWC customer. I can verify by flipping back and forth between the sources what mlbUC said. Their HD signal is indeed inferior to TWC on every offering.

With respect to the SD channels, let me give a little background. When I first became a D* customer 7.5 years ago the difference in picture quality between the SD channels on D* and the analog TWC channels was astonisihing. D* blew away the analog channels. However, over the past 7.5 years as D* has squeezed more and more channels in and reduced bandwidth, the gap is almost nothing. I have an HD projector with a 75" image and on some D* SD channels there is no much artifacting due to bandwidth starvation I actually flip to TWC to watch the analog channel because it looks better! My guess would be that for the average person, with the average TWC signal on a small 27" or 32" tv the D* may still look a little better for SD. I happen to have a very strong and clean analog signal, even the tech who did my install was impressed, so maybe I am not typical. I had the College gameplan through D* last year and the compression on those channels was so bad it was like watching horrible streaming video. Sometimes the numbers and names on players backs were just plain illegible. I got the College gameplan through TWC this year, which is all digital, and the difference is night and day. TWC looks so much better.

I never thought I would switch to cable but things have changed. I got tired of the lack of bandwidth at D*. I got tired of the promises and lack of delivery of more HD from D*. So when TWC offered me half off the digipic 4000 package for 18 months simply because I was a D* subscriber, I jumped on it.

Please note I am not advocating any one particular provider over another. People have different experiences and priorities. I am merely relaying my experiences and what my two eyes can see.

I'll second the D* HD looks like crap compared to not only twc but ota as well

Yes, I should have included OTA as well. Good call.

Every D* HD customer I know says their HDTV channels are terrible compared to TWC. Maybe the standard SD channels look better on D*, but I'm more concerned about the HD channels myself (hence the reason why I'm interested in E* instead of D*).


They look great to me.

There's certainly some truth to the bit rate issue and what not, but a lot of what I've read around here has been gross exagerration and hyperbole by certain people that I'm convinced have an agenda.



None of these providers is perfect. That's the truth, but after spending some time on AVS and reading all of that in the HD Programming forum, until my head spinned...,they really had me prepared for complete trash and the lowest of expectation on HD (at least), and what I've seen is anything but.

I was all prepared to be angry and have them yank that thing out of here, and I couldn't have been more pleasantly surprised.

Heh, so thanks to them for lowering my expecations SO much, with the hyperbole and exagerrated rhetoric, that I actually came away pleasantly surprised, in the end!




I think SOME of the complaints I've seen have to be suspect installs issues as well. I can't stress enough how good it was for me to have a CEDIA man do this install.

A quality install does make a big difference.



The HD via bare cable from the wall to my TV looks a little bit better than some of D* HD, but hardly night and day.

The PQ via ANY of TWC's hardware HERE was trash compared to anything I've seen on D*, HD or otherwise. Thie STB's and hardware, at least here, are complete trash and not viable.



There's been a lot of exaggeration and hyperbole on this HD-lite issue in regards to D*.

It's a real issue, but there's just a lot of hyperbole and biased agenda that you have to swim through before you get down to facts and what your eyes will actually see.




I think you should find a way to demo the products for yourself so you can make an informed decision.

OTA is still the best for HD quality, and MY TWC here? It sucks in every respect to what I get on D*.

And you can't get premium programming over OTA, unfortuneately, so you're going to have to bite the bullet with someone at some point.



I'm not sure where "jim tressler" lives, nor do I necessarily doubt his word, but I can hardly call anything I see on D* "crap" by any means.

The "worst" HD I've seen on D* is AT LEAST equal to, if not better, than the upconverted picture my Onky DV-SP1000 puts out with DVDs, which I would hardly call "crap."



And even at that: It's still a complete upgrade to what I can get through TWC here. That's the truth.

That's right: DirecTV with its "HD-lite" is still a hell of a lot better than anything I could ever get through TWC here, and believe me I tried everything with them. I just couldn't throw anymore money at the Monster and make it work.

After trying since January of 2004, I just finally said the hell with it two months ago and I couldn't be happier.


The very first day I can ever get MPEG4 and my locals through D* here, I'm doing it. I'll keep TWC strictly for RR and I can't wait for that day to happen.


As usual : YMMV.

Good luck! :)





ADDENDUM: People that live in Lima know this: TWC owns this city, such as it is.

Just about every one of the old "cable cliches" applies here, to the point that I watched WLIO news the other night, blatantly shill TWC"s digital phone service in a pathetic attempt to disguise that as a "news segment." It couldn't have been further from news if you'd tried.

I only watch them for the weather anyways, because I can't take them seriously beyond that most of the time, but this had to have been one of THE most unsubtle and blatant shill jobs I've ever seen done, at least since I moved here, and I came from a big city where I've seen it all happen at one point or another. (Miami, FL)


It was a blatant advertisement and product placement for TWC, thanks to WLIO, and that's just par for the course around here in this town.

You can't get away from TWC and its influence unless you take steps like I did.


TWC's prices are terrible around here and the quality sucks, overall. But they can get away with it.

I'm sure it's better in other areas, but definitely not here.

They can get away with it here, because some small time operation like WatchTV is certainly no threat to them .

There's absolutely no threat breathing down their throat except for the people like me who go satellite and get away from them.

No offense Q, but I don't think people here have "an agenda" against D* or E*. They WANT all providers to give customers the best quality possible. I'm by no means defending TWC, but just like the hardware issue you, and only you it seems, have, I don't recall ever running across any complaints about TWC's HD picture quality or any other cableco's. I mean, first you complained about TWC's hardware and how much it sucked, so you switch. Now you praise D* HD's picture, contrary to what hundreds of their customers and "fans" say, and criticize TWC's HD picture.... Who appears to have "an agenda" ?? :D

No offense Q, but I don't think people here have "an agenda" against D* or E*.

I think a few do, that I've seen in the past..

I didn't say "most" nor "all", by any means.



They WANT all providers to give customers the best quality possible.

Agreed. Of course!

I'm by no means defending TWC, but just like the hardware issue you, and only you it seems, have, I don't recall ever running across any complaints about TWC's HD picture quality or any other cableco's. I mean, first you complained about TWC's hardware and how much it sucked, so you switch. Now you praise D* HD's picture, contrary to what hundreds of their customers and "fans" say, and criticize TWC's HD picture.... Who appears to have "an agenda" ?? :D

You can put words in my mouth and believe whatever you want. I'm not saying DirecTV is perfect by any means, nor have I imposed my experiences on anyone else or applied them to anyyone else. I've been very careful to apply everything I've said TO ME AND NO ONE ELSE.

I honestly don't give a damn what anyone else buys for themselves. If you're happy with what you have, with whoever it is, more power to ya! :)

here is a question.. wkef is only at 138kw - any word from them when they will go to 1000?? I emailed them a few times with no response.

138KW ERP is WKEF-DT's full power allocation from FCC. 138KW ERP from a DTV station is actually a lot of power, and only about 9db less than 1000KW ERP. I think Transmitting antenna height+how it relates to terrain issues can often be much more of an issue than power -- although of course higher power is especially going to be better for those using indoor antennas that aren't very close to the transmitter, or for those on the fringes(although, then again Doc had reported he picked up WKEF-DT just fine from his Yagi in the attic from Florence, KY) .....

As another example, If you look at WRGT-DT's antenna pattern info for their full power construction permit on FCC site(assuming it is correct), It shows a relative field value of .362 for 180 degree true bearing(towards Kings Island, more or less) .... this is how you caluclate power from that relative field value :

Relative field value Squared x Max ERP in watts = Power sent in that direction.

So, since WRGT-DT is also at full power, and filed a "license to cover" with FCC for their Full power construction permit over the summer and their full power construction permit from FCC says 425KW ERP :

(.362 x .362) x 425,000 Watts = 55.6 KW ERP sent in your direction from WRGT-DT-- Or about 3db less than WKEF-DT(non directional antenna) is sending in your direction.

According to WBDT-DT's antenna pattern, they're only sending 1.5 KW ERP in My direction -- I have no problem's receiving them at all with an outdoor antenna, it is hard to get a lock on them with an indoor antenna, though .... compare to the 1000KW ERP, or about 10 times more power or 30db more WDTN-DT sends my way .... each 2x increase in power is about the same(+3db) as removing a 2 way splitter from your feedline .... I'm also in a big null for WHIO-DT as well, BTW, but yet have had no problems receiving them, even before they went to "full power" ...

And you can't get premium programming over OTA, unfortuneately, so you're going to have to bite the bullet with someone at some point.


Not necessarily. Everyone doesn't need, or even want "premium quality" content from the cablenets. You can find a LOT of high quality content va OTA(including HD)+DVD. Sometimes, concerning the latter even available for free checkout from your local libarary .....

Not necessarily. Everyone doesn't need, or even want "premium quality" content from the cablenets. You can find a LOT of high quality content va OTA(including HD)+DVD. Sometimes, concerning the latter even available for free checkout from your local libarary .....

When he say's premimum, I'm assuming he means HBO/SHO/etc (as that's what cableco's refer to as premium stations). And there is no way you can compare HBO-HD to DVD.

Q, I have seen HD over D* (ESPNHD and ESPN2HD), and both look VERY soft. Comparitively, on TWC ESPNHD looks very good. I will not be a subscriber of D* until they fix those issues (which I assume will happen in time with MPEG4, but not until they move over most of the subscribers to the new MPEG4 boxes).

Dish Network (from what I've read) doesn't compress ESPNHD (which is most imporant to me). They do compress a handful of HD channels (a few voom channels), but the vast majority of theirs are running at 100% bit rate and full resolution. If you can't see a difference in that, then I think you are crazy.

Aren't you the person who was complaining about TWC's boxes screwing up the PQ? TWC's boxes do nothing to the PQ like D* does with their compression and bit rate limits.

When he say's premimum, I'm assuming he means HBO/SHO/etc (as that's what cableco's refer to as premium stations). And there is no way you can compare HBO-HD to DVD.

I'm talking about CONTENT not PQ. Also, HD-DVD is somewhere off on the horizon. AS for content -- again --not counting the theatrical releases, not only can I buy them, most every HBO/Showtime production is or has been available on DVD at my local LIBRARY(they let you check out 12 DVD's for free for a WEEK), I've watched a number of them, including series(Band of Brothers widescreen DVD, project "Greenlight"/etc ....

Yes, I know what "preminum" channels are, perhaps I was mistaken, but I took his comment to mean any content(channels) that aren't available free-to-air OTA and that you need to go through a "provider" to get. In fact, I'm currently getting ready to check my E* receiver's guide for the next few days in fact to see if there is anything I want to record off the Free HBO/Showtime Preview they are giving us from Dec 2~6 .... Probably not as I do know anytime they've had free previews before it has not given me any reason to want to subscribe to those premium services, but I have gotten to see a few old movies again I had "forgotten" about which I hadn't seen in a long time ...

Q, I have seen HD over D* (ESPNHD and ESPN2HD), and both look VERY soft. Comparitively, on TWC ESPNHD looks very good. I will not be a subscriber of D* until they fix those issues (which I assume will happen in time with MPEG4, but not until they move over most of the subscribers to the new MPEG4 boxes).

Dish Network (from what I've read) doesn't compress ESPNHD (which is most imporant to me). They do compress a handful of HD channels (a few voom channels), but the vast majority of theirs are running at 100% bit rate and full resolution. If you can't see a difference in that, then I think you are crazy.

Aren't you the person who was complaining about TWC's boxes screwing up the PQ? TWC's boxes do nothing to the PQ like D* does with their compression and bit rate limits.

That hasn't been my experience.



Q, I have seen HD over D* (ESPNHD and ESPN2HD), and both look VERY soft. Comparitively, on TWC ESPNHD looks very good. I will not be a subscriber of D* until they fix those issues (which I assume will happen in time with MPEG4, but not until they move over most of the subscribers to the new MPEG4 boxes).

Very likely.


Dish Network (from what I've read) doesn't compress ESPNHD (which is most imporant to me). They do compress a handful of HD channels (a few voom channels), but the vast majority of theirs are running at 100% bit rate and full resolution. If you can't see a difference in that, then I think you are crazy.

Pretty strong rhetoric about something you admit you haven't actually seen yourself. ;)


Aren't you the person who was complaining about TWC's boxes screwing up the PQ? TWC's boxes do nothing to the PQ like D* does with their compression and bit rate limits.

I believe you, but that simply hasn't been MY experience here at all.

TWC's STB PQ was inferior to what I'm getting with DirecTV right now. Honest.




When he say's premimum, I'm assuming he means HBO/SHO/etc (as that's what cableco's refer to as premium stations). And there is no way you can compare HBO-HD to DVD.

Yes, but as usual, ol' Nitewatchman came through with another neat idea that I need to explore. :)

I'm talking about CONTENT not PQ. Also, HD-DVD is somewhere off on the horizon. AS for content Not counting the theatrical releases, not only can I buy them, Most every HBO/Showtime show/Film is or has been available on DVD at my local LIBRARY(they let you check out 12 DVD's for free for a WEEK), I've watched a number of them, including series(Band of Brothers widescreen DVD, project "Greenlight"/etc/etdfc/etc ....

Yes, I know what "preminum" channels are, perhaps I was mistaken, but I took his comment to mean any content(channels) that aren't available free-to-air OTA and that you need to go through a "provider" to get. In fact, I'm currently getting ready to check my E* receiver's guide for the next few days in fact to see if there is anything I want to record off the Free HBO/Showtime Preview they are giving us from Dec 2~6 .... Probably not as I do know anytime they've had free previews before it has not given me any reason to want to subscribe to those premium services, but I have gotten to see a few old movies again I had "forgotten" about which I hadn't seen in a long time ...

I guess I don't understand how you can consider any content that you receive OTA, premium. Premium to me means something I am getting that not everyone else is, due to my personal choice of paying an increased cost.

And obviously I know that Blu-Ray is on the horizon (as I personally don't think HD-DVD will survive), but until then if I don't want to wait for a 480p version of somthing I can have at 1080i/720p for a "premium" cost, then I must subscribe.

I'd personally drop my cable in an instant, if i could convince my wife to give up her Style/Food Network/E!/etc crap to save 80 bucks a month, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

As for the debate of one service is better then the other, it's all in the eye of the beholder IMO. Also most people aren't comparitively looking at the same program on the same display on different providers at the same time to make an accurate comparison. If I'm watching ESPN-HD on D* and see artifacting, how the hell do I know that the same artifacting didn't just happen on TWC? I don't, I suck it up and say, that was annoying, but because it was still watchable I keep my service.

For me I know the difference on my TV between HD and SD and I'm happy with it. Could it be better? (Well I know mine could be if i paid for an ISF calibration to fix my dark scenes), but from a provider stand point i don't really care. Of course I'm far from a videophile and only have a 48" RPTV, but I'm happy.

I guess what I'm rambling on about is that people shouldn't criticize someone for saying they feel one provider is better then another, because unless you've comparitively seen both of their setups, you can never make an accurate statement. Again (IMO), video is and always will be in the eye of the beholder.

Dish Network (from what I've read) doesn't compress ESPNHD

Wrong. As a consumer, ALL HD you see is compressed, from any provider, or from OTA, whatever. Uncompressed, 1080i HD-SDI is something like 1.5 Gb/s, 720p a bit less. About the only time you would see that is if you were in the production truck, and probably not even then. I think I'd read Tests have shown that with MPEG2+ 1080i the most demanding content(think lots of action, lots of strobe lights going off/etc), and for the "golden eye" for MPEG2 compression artifacts you need something over 30Mb/s data rate, and I think I'd read that's what they were shooting for for HD-DVD - or whatever it is called now. In most cases, the networks send their affilaites a 30~45Mb/s stream(it may not be MPEG2 though, might be propriatary compression). The MOST you'll get from any provider, today is a little under 20 Mb/s, the max payload via ATSC for OTA stations is 19.4Mb/s, since audio/PSIP+other metadata take up some of that, the max possible for a OTA station sending a single HD stream is about 18.5Mb/s.

What "HD-lite" is mostly all about is D* sending HD at resolutions such as 1280x1080 instead of 1920x1080i so they can use less bandwidth(bits) while not increasing the compression ratio - which would result in more MPEG compression artifacts("blocking") during bandwidth demanding scenes. Most decoders can handle non-ATSC table 3 resolutions, such as 1440x1080i, 1280x1080i, etc.

I think people might LIKE to have simple answers to this "PQ" thing, but it just ain't that simple, and there is a LOT more involved than the above. For example, SD looks better in some cases on a professional studio monitor(think $$$$$) than HD looks on some consumer displays.

As for the debate of one service is better then the other, it's all in the eye of the beholder IMO. Also most people aren't comparitively looking at the same program on the same display on different providers at the same time to make an accurate comparison. If I'm watching ESPN-HD on D* and see artifacting, how the hell do I know that the same artifacting didn't just happen on TWC? I don't, I suck it up and say, that was annoying, but because it was still watchable I keep my service.

For me I know the difference on my TV between HD and SD and I'm happy with it. Could it be better? (Well I know mine could be if i paid for an ISF calibration to fix my dark scenes), but from a provider stand point i don't really care. Of course I'm far from a videophile and only have a 48" RPTV, but I'm happy.

The problem with D* is not so much artifacting, but softness of the picture (it is hard to explain the difference in quality). Most likely if it is artifacting on ESPNHD on D* it is on TWC as well. The problem is with lower resolutions and bit rates that cause the video to not look as sharp, the colors to be as deep, and the quality just not as good. It is kind of like watching a video on your PC that is in 800x600 then watching it in a stretched version of 640x480 (to create the same sized window), you lose a ton of detail.

The best example is during the Ohio State vs. Penn State game on ESPNHD, BuckNut switched from TWC to D* and it was an amazing difference. The lines were jaggy, the colors looked faded out, and the overall experience just wasn't as good. For anybody who can compare the two, there is no doubt that D* is terrible compared to TWC in Dayton.

I do know, however, that some cable companies are doing the same thing as D*, causing their video to look the same or worse. However, in the Dayton market, that is not the case.

Wrong. As a consumer, ALL HD you see is compressed, from any provider, or from OTA, whatever.

You knew what I was talking about. I appreciate your knowledge, but you are not the end all-be all of HDTV. OTA is the standard that everyone compares, and if they give the full bandwidth it maxes out in the 17-18Mbps range. D* brings it down to 13-15Mbps in many cases, causing the video to look "soft".

Edit: By the way, the resolution differences is what causes the softness, you are correct.

I guess I don't understand how you can consider any content that you receive OTA, premium.


Huh? where did I say that? I DIDN'T call any OTA content "premium" anywhere in my posts. .... Not that I really care WHAT you call it ....

I said there was plenty of QUALITY content available OTA, and I said the "premium" content you get from the "premium" channels is also available in most cases via DVD, and I said that E*(Dish network) is having a free preview of Showtime/HBO channels this weekend, that means this weekend, I'll get all 11 or 12 or whatever # showtime/HBO channels with my E* subscription without paying a "premium" price .. If I was using HD from E*, if reports from the last Sho/HBO free preview are any clue, I'd get HBOHD/SHOHD too ... but, just for this weekend unless I was willing to pay for it, which I am not ...



And obviously I know that Blu-Ray is on the horizon (as I personally don't think HD-DVD will survive), but until then if I don't want to wait for a 480p version of somthing I can have at 1080i/720p for a "premium" cost, then I must subscribe.


I haven't followed the acronym's on what they are going to call it(blu-ray/HD-DVD) sorry ... No matter what they end up calling it, I'll probably end up still calling it HD-DVD ... I'm not going to say "Honey, go stick the blu-ray of Star Wars in the player" .....

Anyhow, that's just great if that's what YOU want to do, great for you! However, I wasn't really talking about YOU specifically when I said :

"Everyone doesn't need, or even want "premium quality" content from the cablenets. You can find a LOT of high quality content va OTA(including HD)+DVD. Sometimes, concerning the latter even available for free checkout from your local libarary ....."

And yes, whether or not that is exactly what Q was reffering to, In additon to the showtime, HBO or any other "premium channels, I was also referring to the "non-premuium" content available on TNT, ESPN/etc/etc/etc that are not considered to be "premium channels", and the reason why I was reffering to them as well is because they are not available for free OTA either, and that is a point Q brought up(because you have to go to a provider ....) .. AND because whether or not YOU or I, are interested in E! or Style or MTV or TNT or TBS or whatever, there are certianly SOME folks who are interested in it ....


I'd personally drop my cable in an instant, if i could convince my wife to give up her Style/Food Network/E!/etc crap to save 80 bucks a month, but that's not going to happen any time soon.


$80 a month? You pay $80 a month for that .... Check out E*'s AT60 package, it's $26.99 a month .... Don't think it has "Style" though, but has the others you mentioned+ a LOT more .... Add HD+Showtime+HBO and it still won't be anywhere near $80 a month .....


As for the debate of one service is better then the other, it's all in the eye of the beholder IMO.


Ding ding ding ...


Also most people aren't comparitively looking at the same program on the same display on different providers at the same time to make an accurate comparison. If I'm watching ESPN-HD on D* and see artifacting, how the hell do I know that the same artifacting didn't just happen on TWC? I don't, I suck it up and say, that was annoying, but because it was still watchable I keep my service.

For me I know the difference on my TV between HD and SD and I'm happy with it. Could it be better? (Well I know mine could be if i paid for an ISF calibration to fix my dark scenes), but from a provider stand point i don't really care. Of course I'm far from a videophile and only have a 48" RPTV, but I'm happy.

I guess what I'm rambling on about is that people shouldn't criticize someone for saying they feel one provider is better then another, because unless you've comparitively seen both of their setups, you can never make an accurate statement. Again (IMO), video is and always will be in the eye of the beholder.

NOW your talkin' -- excellent comments, I agree .... While there are certianly some real "black and white" technical "realities" that influence PQ which we can talk about(but even THAT is going to get very complicated given different displays/scalers/setups/etc), there is also a LOT of grey area, and add to that for the most part, PQ is very subjective thing, especially when you try to talk about it in a "text" format on an internet forum ....

I haven't followed the acronym's on what they are going to call it(blu-ray/HD-DVD) sorry ... No matter what they end up calling it, I'll probably end up still calling it HD-DVD ... I'm not going to say "Honey, go stick the blu-ray of Star Wars in the player" .....


Seems easier to say Blu-Ray (2 syllables) as opposed to HD-DVD (5 syllables) :). Of course I've thought about this issue too, and I'm guessing no matter what format is ultimately chosen by the masses that it will be referred to as DVD by the majority of consumers


$80 a month? You pay $80 a month for that .... Check out E*'s AT60 package, it's $26.99 a month .... Don't think it has "Style" though, but has the others you mentioned+ a LOT more .... Add HD+Showtime+HBO and it still won't be anywhere near $80 a month .....


I do occassionly like to watch ESPN-HD and the HBO series (Curb Your Enthusiasm/Sopranos) and a movie every now and then, and we greatly utilize our HD-DVR, so we are getting more use then just those 3-4 stations the wife likes. But I really don't want to deal with the HOA headaches it will take me to get a dish at the moment, among other reasons.

You knew what I was talking about.


Sorry, Not really. I understand what you meant now, however, given your last post. But, I'm not a mind reader ... I also think you are taking this the wrong way .....


I appreciate your knowledge, but you are not the end all-be all of HDTV.


What in the WORLD is that comment all about, why would you even think such a thing ..... sigh ...

I can't believe people are even debating the PQ of D* HD content vs. TWC HD content. I have a few friends with HDTVs and D*, and the PQ is comparable with my digital channels, but nowhere near as good as my HD channels.

Seems easier to say Blu-Ray (2 syllables) as opposed to HD-DVD (5 syllables) :).

HA! Maybe we'll just have to come up with our own names for it .... I dunno, Blu-ray just seems a little odd ...

Seems easier to say Blu-Ray (2 syllables) as opposed to HD-DVD (5 syllables) .
HA! Maybe we'll just have to come up with our own names for it .... I dunno, Blu-ray just seems a little odd ...

The fun part is that you all are debating names of two competing technologies. It's like saying, "I like saying DLP better than LCD or CRT, so I'll call any rear projection HDTV, DLP."

Blu-ray (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray)
HD-DVD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD)
http://www.ktvh.com/graphics/programs/TMYK.jpg

Sorry, Not really. I understand what you meant now, however, given your last post. But, I'm not a mind reader ... I also think you are taking this the wrong way .....

What in the WORLD is that comment all about, why would you even think such a thing ..... sigh ...

Sorry Nitewatchman, but you threw out information that really had no bearing on the conversation (in terms of the recompression done to the signal). I took it as you trying to be a smartass. I apologize for my "outburst"...

Given that very, very few people have the access to watch HD truly uncompressed, when people speak of compressing or not compressing HD the real-world meaning and understanding is what is done *after* your provider receives the signal and what they do to it.

Given that very, very few people have the access to watch HD truly uncompressed, when people speak of compressing or not compressing HD the real-world meaning and understanding is what is done *after* your provider receives the signal and what they do to it.

That was my point originally... and that was why it rubbed me the wrong way.

Yes I was referring to their "HD" sub-channel. I subscribe to HDTV Magazine and about a week ago I got an e-mail saying there's a new HD channel in my area and they listed it as WPTO (or WPTD ?) which I thought was odd, given that they're both already on the air.

I happen to live in the Dayton area, and this staion was shifting around it's subchannels. HD was on the .1 subchannel and is now on .6 (I think). Therefore, the data we receive from our data provider listed this new .6 subchannel and our website email system flagged the email to go out with a "New Station". so you are correct, it is not a new station on air, but the channel is new since it used to be a different one ... a fine line, to be sure.

Enjoy,

- Shane

I think WPTO-DT has aired HD on it's 14.6(PSIP remapped) subchannel since shortly after coming on the air, which was Summer 2004. Same thing with WPTD-DT on 16.6(PSIP remapped) since May 2003. I don't recall it ever being anywhere else for either station, although certianly it could have been for a short "Testing" period. I think WPTD-DT may have had a short period with a X.1 subchannel, but otherwise, WPTO-DT+WPTD-DT "first" subchannel has allways been x.2, both of those being 480iSD digital simuclast of Think16/14 analog. When I contacted them once and asked about the X.2 subchannel, and why there was no x.1 subchannel, I believe they had said there were some receivers that were having some issues with their PSIP.

Update: Oh -- Also -- It's also allways been listed as such (x.2~x.6) in their program listings on their website(click on the logo for the program service for the "channel #" info) :

http://www.thinktv.org/program/program.php

Recently, WPTO-DT did expand their HD schedule, however. Up until this fall, They were only sending HD on Sat+Sunday evenings, now it's every night 8~10pm.

WPTO-DT transmits from WXIX tower in Cincinnati, BTW, whearas the analog station transmits from Oxford. For some reason, antennaweb doesn't seem to be using the location info for their transmitter which can be found in FCC CDBS database.

Update #2: Also, If I recall correctly WPTO-DT may have been providing a feed to TW via fiber for some time before the OTA station actually made it to air. They were delayed from their FCC imposed on air "deadline" of 5/1/03(and were granted CP extensions by FCC) For reasons/delays involving a change in their CP for the location change from their original CP(construction permit) to broadcast from WKOI tower(near Oxford), as for one thing approval from FCC to modfiy the permit to move the transmitter to WXIX tower didn't happen long before the 5/1/03 deadline -- It does take some time for them to make sure there are no interference conflicts that don't fall within "specs"(WTTE 28 Columbus/WPTO-DT 28 for example). Also, from what I recall from reading documents they sent FCC when asking for CP extensions, I believe there was also some sort of snafu regarding coordination with WXIX tower owner and the necessary construction of a new transmitter shack on WXIX tower site, and or the coordination/timing concerning construction of the new shack+building the new plant for the digital station/receiving delievery of the transmitter/antenna from the manufacturers/etc.

The fun part is that you all are debating names of two competing technologies. It's like saying, "I like saying DLP better than LCD or CRT, so I'll call any rear projection HDTV, DLP."


What I'm looking for is something I can call HD on a ~4.6" diameter mostly plastic disc that wouldn't refer to the different competing technoligies, but instead refer to the media+format/resolution of the video itself --- Along the lines such as that "videocassette" would cover VHS, Beta, and any other form factor ... I suppose I certianly "erred" by referring to "HD-DVD" in this manner and assuming my intent was understood ... my intent being only to note that "someday" HD content currently available on premium movie channels(HBO/SHO HD) should be available on a "DVD like" format, not to debate anything about the blu-ray/HD-DVD competing technolgies ....

Update: Ok, been thinking about it a bit ... How about if I would have said ... HD on DVD? Is that close enough? Or, would I need to be more "specific" and say "HD on DVD like media" ....


Sorry Nitewatchman, but you threw out information that really had no bearing on the conversation (in terms of the recompression done to the signal).


I disagree. I don't see anything wrong with discussing the information I provided, and I'm not sure everyone who might be interested in the topic would be aware of what you were talking about if someone would say E* doesn't compress their HD.


Given that very, very few people have the access to watch HD truly uncompressed, when people speak of compressing or not compressing HD the real-world meaning and understanding is what is done *after* your provider receives the signal and what they do to it.


I don't see why you have to have access to "uncompressed" HD in order to discuss, or understand how it works. I thought that's a lot of what AVSforum was all about, learning+sharing what we know about how this stuff works so we can all benefit from each other's knowledge.

I think It's all important when it comes to discussing the "PQ" issue. Including what happens before(and after) your "provider" or broadcast station gets it.

OK, let me try this in a little different way, hopefully this way it will become more clear why I posted the info I did earlier about the "uncompressed" HD .....


Dish Network (from what I've read) doesn't compress ESPNHD (which is most imporant to me). They do compress a handful of HD channels (a few voom channels), but the vast majority of theirs are running at 100% bit rate and full resolution. If you can't see a difference in that, then I think you are crazy.


What exactly are you referring to when you say "100% bit rate"? Are you referring to the bitrate in Mb/s, say that E*(Dish Network) gets from it's feed from say, TNTHD or HDnet? Do we even know what that is, and what codec/etc is used? And, Are you saying that's exactly what E* passes though to their customers? If so, Where exactly did you read this, as I'd like to see it. I'm not asking to be a *smart*ass, sorry, I just don't understand what it is you are talking about. [Update:, Yes, I know you said OTA is the "standard" that everyone compares to, and that is what you are reffering to, but that is certianly news to me and I don't really see how that can necessarily apply to mean "100% bitrate" for say, ESPNHD via your cable or sat provider ]

I do know that it's true that at one time, D*(DirecTV) was using a single transponder to send, for example "HDnet" at ~19.4Mb/s, and, because of the way they were doing things(still may be I don't know), I believe HDnet was sending them around a 19.4Mb/s MPEG2 stream. This has since changed, as D* needed to utilize some of their bandwidth capability for other things.

As for E*, I do recall seeing a thread about bitrates from them sometime over the summer in programming area, where someone with the equipment to do so measured it from their HD services, and I don't remember the exact numbers but If I recall correctly it was generally somewhere in the average of 12Mb/s~15Mb/s. I also don't know if they are, or are not doing the "HD-lite" thing like D* is. IF none of that is the case however, and whatever the current situation actually is, I'd think you can't necessarily expect the current situation from E* will be the same in say, a couple of years as it is now.

Now to that 19.4Mb/s bitrate "number". For the most part, AFAIK, the only thing that is really signficant about that bitrate is that with ATSC 8VSB(which is the system used for digital Over-the-air broadcast, 8VSB being the signal modulation), 19.38Mb/s is the amount of data payload available from a digital broadcast station. One reason why it's 19.38Mb/s is because they "designed" the system so that you could fit ONE high quality 1080i HD broadcast via MPEG2 within that amount of bandwidth, while still having a robust, receivable Over-the-air delivery system. There is also a good amount of bandwidth that is used for the OTA digital broadcast that is taken up by the necessary foward error correction -- If we didn't need that more robust FEC to send signals OTA rather than via a wire or fiber/etc, we'd have something a bit over 30Mb/s available bandwidth available OTA. With ATSC, there is also 16VSB, which is designed for cable(but noone I know of is using it), which doesn't need all that extra error correction, and can fit about 38Mb/s into a 6MHZ RF channel. QAM is similiar data payload rate in that with it, ~38Mb/s fits In one 6MHZ RF channel(each TV "channel" or cable channel uses 6MHZ of spectrum). Thus, cableco's can put TWO 19.4Mb/s streams from say, broadcast stations into One 6MHZ channel -- and they do.

If there is some commonly known "standard" that for some reason we are saying 19.4mb/s is "100% bitrate" for all HD, and that is what "everyone" is reffering to because it's the "standard for OTA"(update : even though many stations aren't doing that "standard") it is not something that I am aware of, but I'd certianly like to hear more about it. Now, When they were developing the ATSC standard, they had a test center (called ATTC - for Advanced Technology test center, or Advanced Television test center or some such thing), and ATTC did a bunch of (some would say very subjective tests) Picture quality tests and came up with the recommendation that, with MPEG2, 19.4 Mb/s was just enough for 1080i HD, and about 15Mb/s~16mb/s was just enough for 720p -- Hence their recommendation that stations sending 1080i not multicast, and, that stations sending 720p could fit in one SD multicast channel while still being able to send Hi-quality HD pictures during the most bandwidth demanding programming. [update/clarification - So, I guess from that standpoint, I could see the point of thinking of 19.4mb/s via MPEG2 for HD as some sort of "standard" bitrate to look at -- Is that what you're talking about as the "standard" most people are talking about when they refer to "compressed" or "uncompressed"? the ATTC tests? I didn't realize most people here were even aware of them.]

Many broadcast engineers I've read posts from here on AVS in the past seem to feel that the encoders have improved since those tests were performed and also along with the use of techniques such as statistial multiplexing, more multicasting can be done, including 1080i + mulsticasting, or more than 1 SD multicast with 720p or 1080i. Although, having not actually seen this for myself, I'm skeptical.

NOW ... [Clarification/update - I'm sure your already aware of this, but I wouldn't want to take away the oppurtinity for someone to complain about a long post and compare my post to Leo Tolstoy's scribblings/etc] ....... also keep in mind when we are throwing these bitrate #'s around -- even 1080i HD, say from a OTA broadcast station isn't going to even need, say 18~19Mb/s ALL the time ... Only during short periods of bandwidth demanding sections of programming. When it doesn't need "everything" from an OTA station that which it doesn't need we call "available oppurtunistic bandwidth". Depending upon how they have it set up(some will just send a static 19.4Mb/s HD stream(and that includes Audio/PSIP+other metadata of course) the stream might be just filled with null packets when the HD doesn't "need" all of it --- It's allways 19.4mb/s from a OTA station, no matter what the data "is" ....But a station could make use of the available oppurtunistic bandwidth(Which will vary, depending upon content, but will at short periods be "Zero" availabole bandwidth) when available -- Could be used for datacasting services, or a station sending 1080i willing to compromise HD PQ a bit could run SD service(s), but one that can also "use" available "oppurtunistic" bandwidth which isn't being used by the HD stream during less bandwidth demanding content -- They can do this via a process called "statistical multipliexing", wheare they can set which program service(hopefully HD) gets what priority -- for instance, they could set it up so HD "robs" bits from a SD multicast service when HD needs more, or vice versa .... Cableco's and Satellite companies also utilize statistical multiplexing to more effectively utilize their bandwidth capability -- so, one may very well be able to measure an "average" 12~15mb/s or less from say "HDnet" on cable, or E*, even though it could also be set up to use as much as 19.4mb/s(or even more for that matter), and it will likely hit that "peak" during sections of bandwidth demanding programming.


TWC's boxes do nothing to the PQ like D* does with their compression and bit rate limits.

I don't know what TWC "does", including with their STB's, but I do know I have seen complaints in other threads concerning the quality of the scalers/STB's from various STB's various cableco's use(including TW), and all those complaints didn't come from Q of banditz .... There is a post here(in a very interesting thread concerning a somewhat related subject) and discussion here, referring to quite substantial PQ diffierences between SA 8300 PQ vs. Cablecard PQ with a certian set(which just happens to be the same set Q of Banditz is using, I believe ):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6611723&&#post6611723


Every D* HD customer I know says their HDTV channels are terrible compared to TWC. Maybe the standard SD channels look better on D*, but I'm more concerned about the HD channels myself (hence the reason why I'm interested in E* instead of D*).


If you want to try to "boil down" what I'm trying to say(and I'm not advocating any provider over another) ... Given all the discussion TW VS D*/etc ..... is, FWIW -- My advice would be :

#1). Don't necessarily believe everything you read, or hear. I don't think it very common for "providers" to publish accurate technical info concerning exactly what they are doing where resolution+bitrates are concerned. It has been posted here several times that TW in this area is not "changing" anything about the HD the broadcast stations are sending them, and I personally expect that is the case. According to current rules in place, they really aren't "allowed" to do that - It's supposed to be the same quality the station is sending them - Not necesarily perhaps, but in most cases I think they should be just passing through the same datastream we OTA viewers are getting from the station. The rules sound like they may be changing however, as there is a lot of support to allow them to downrez HD to SD and convert to analog for analog cable customers. These rules don't apply to cablenets such as ESPNHD/etc, I don't know what the cableco does with those.

#2). Also, there are a LOT of "variables" which can account for why the PQ on such and suchs set, with such and such provider or STB looks "poor" ... and, Resolution isn't allways the most important thing in getting a good picture. To me, for instance getting somewhat accurate Blacks are just as(or more) important, for example, so is having Greyscale in the ballpark of ~6500K. Also, sometimes, processing by electronics in the set itself can add "digital looking" artifacts, that look just like a "low bitrate" problem, and various "sharpness" and edge enhancement settings can do some odd things to the picture .. Try different "Band Pass F"(a Service menu setting = some sort of band pass filtering setting) settings on some Samsung CRT's for example .... Sometimes, these sorts of things are even set up differently for say, 720p than 1080i ... Many "HD" displays can't even display "full resolution" of 1080i, and some production equipment can't do 1920x1080 either. And, that's not even getting much into PQ differences in source material itself. If we really want to get really serious about comparing PQ from different providers, to the point of telling each other "you're nuts", or "you need glasses", we all need professional, calibrated displays -- probably all of the same model, and depending upon what is available, it might have to be direct-View CRT ... Sony has one for about $20K, last I looked ... It does HD, and it's a 20" 4x3 tube .... Sit close now ;)

#2). If some such provider has better PQ NOW, given such and such display+STB, don't necessarily expect that will still be the case a year from now, or a month from now, or next week for that matter .... I think HD is going to be rough on the "bandwidth allocation" game for multi channel Pay TV providers, probably DBS more so than cable.

In closing, what I am trying to say more than anything else is, you might want to think twice about jumping all over someone who comes here and posts their reports about what they think about such+such PQ from such and such channel or provider. I'd also caution trying to make any sorts of conclusions such as "well, I'm using such and such whiz-bang set and don't see that problem, so the problem must be with your set, or because it isn't calibrated/etc/etc/ ...." It's not a "I'm right and you're wrong" kind of thing. You'd really have to see what he's seeing on his set+with his equipment+setup to get a better idea of where he's coming from ... and, I expect, IF you could do that, you might just end up being very surprised ......

Not that I'm saying you should listen me about any of this .... Just some thoughts, that's all, take'm or leave'em .....

I haven't followed the acronym's on what they are going to call it(blu-ray/HD-DVD) sorry ... No matter what they end up calling it, I'll probably end up still calling it HD-DVD
HA! Maybe we'll just have to come up with our own names for it .... I dunno, Blu-ray just seems a little odd ...

These statements lead people to believe you think there are two interchangeable names for one technology (tomato, tomahto). I believe that this statement confused others on the forum and that is why I decided to enter the discussion. You admitted you haven't followed the acronyms and so I had input that was valuable to the discussion. I admit my method of presenting this was not the best and will try to improve in the future.

Along the lines such as that "videocassette" would cover VHS, Beta, and any other form factor ... I suppose I certianly "erred" by referring to "HD-DVD" in this manner and assuming my intent was understood...

Your original statement discussing "premium" content being available someday on HD DVD was clear and understood. Your understanding of HD-DVD and blu-ray became clouded with later comments on the technology.

Update: Ok, been thinking about it a bit ... How about if I would have said ... HD on DVD? Is that close enough? Or, would I need to be more "specific" and say "HD on DVD like media" ....

I know you have lots of extremely usefull knowledge on several subjects discussed on these forums and we appreciate it. You sometimes end up beating a dead horse in the process.

-walking away

These statements lead people to believe you think there are two interchangeable names for one technology (tomato, tomahto). I believe that this statement confused others on the forum and that is why I decided to enter the discussion.


Sorry if I confused anyone. I meant that comment as a joke, and as a "friendly" reply to browerjs's comment about the 5 syallable vs. 2 syallable thing ... In other words, I just think you are making more out of it that what it was ....

Your original statement discussing "premium" content being available someday on HD DVD was clear and understood. Your understanding of HD-DVD and blu-ray became clouded with later comments on the technology.

I know you have lots of extremely usefull knowledge on several subjects discussed on these forums and we appreciate it. You sometimes end up beating a dead horse in the process.

-walking away

Go ahead and "walk away", but, I think you're missing the point. First of all, I wasn't "debating" anything with anyone. Secondly, I didn't have any "problem" with your post, other than a comment you made seemed to suggest you missed my intent, so I felt the need to clarify it in a response. This doesn't allways have to be a drag out fight about this or that everytime someone makes a comment, and every comment I make when I quote a post Isn't some sort of "challenge" saying "I'm right and your wrong".

I responded to a comment by another poster that said something along the lines that everyone has to go through a multichannel video provider, as "all" content isn't available OTA. And, all that comment was meant to point out was that some people use OTA and don't need a provider, and also that much content is available on OTA+DVD. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough with the exact wording of that response -- But regardless, I was jumped on all over the place for it. "preminum content" this, "HBO HD/"SHO HD" is not available that. Yet, no where, anywhere did I say it was for everyone, or it was for you, or anyone in parrticular all I said it was an option for SOME people, and some people do it that way. And yet, I've had to spend way to much effort backing up that statement and somehow DVD HD formats got into it/etc/etc ...... The only reason WHY I made the comment in the first place is because I know there are folks out there that don't know a "OTA HD" option, or OTA+DVD option without subscription TV even exists. I've even seen some folks refer to using OTA as somehow, "stealing" TV programming .....

Also, as for some of my other recent comments, Q of banditz Z posted his report on his new D* setup, and what he thought about PQ and was jumped all over for it. I have no interest whatsoever in debating D* Vs. TW PQ, Blu-Ray Vs. HD-DVD or any other such thing here. I would like to see this thread be a useful+informative place for anyone interested in Dayton/Lima HDTV issues, and, when I have the time to do so, If I have to beat a dead horse 50 times and in some small manner if I can make this a better thread, or if that's what it takes to get my point across, then at least I've accomplished SOMETHING ....

Count me as one of the few OTA HD/DVD-only viewers in the area. I personally think D*, E*, and TWC charge way too much for what they have to offer ME. Everyone is different when it comes to their programming needs and what they are willing to pay for it. If I could get all the HD programming that's available from the big three providers for $20 a month, I'd pay it. But there's no way of getting the HD programming without also paying for the locals and SD programming that I would never watch.

I know you have lots of extremely usefull knowledge on several subjects discussed on these forums and we appreciate it. You sometimes end up beating a dead horse in the process.

-walking away

The ignore list is a very useful feature of these boards. :cool:

Count me as one of the few OTA HD/DVD-only viewers in the area. I personally think D*, E*, and TWC charge way too much for what they have to offer ME...... But there's no way of getting the HD programming without also paying for the locals and SD programming that I would never watch.

I'm finding myself in a quandary trying to decide between moving my cable or having satellite installed at my new house for pretty much the same reasons. Seems like I can't find a way to come out ahead...sat is cheaper for video but then I have to have a phone line and either DSL or keep RoadRunner...cable costs more but then I don't have to deal with the phone company (I despise SBC)...plus the lot has big trees on it, so I don't even know if the dish would work anyway. Aaarrrgghhhh.... :mad:

The ignore list is a very useful feature of these boards. :cool:


You know, I would PM you with my response, since you obviously won't read this, but since PM doesn't seem to work for 1450KHZ(perhaps that's set up to "ignore" as well). For example, when I tried sending PM to 1450khz with some information some time ago I thought he would be interested in it didn't work(before I had any idea there was any sort of "issue") .... It said he needed to "clear out" his messages ..... In any event, So it seems a response here is apparently the only option I have ....

In the past, I've thought we've had some useful+enjoyable discussions here, and that you have provided some excellent info for members of this thread. I've even considered you to be a friend.

I don't know what your problem is with my posts or comments, nor did you ever bring to my attention any issues you've had with my posts/comments other than that "Tolstoy" remark. I don't have any sort of hidden agenda or "goal" to make my posts long, sometimes they just turn out that way, and hopefully I'm at least able to provide some info that is useful to some folks who are reading it. I'm sorry you don't like it, but that's the way it is.

But, no matter what your issues are with me or my posts, I think it is pretty pi** poor of you to "slam" me while hiding behind the "ignore" list.

I think I'm about done with this thread as :

#1). I certianly don't have any need to post here

#2). It's long since ceased being "fun"

#3). it seems like that will make many of you happy, so have fun.

So, 73 all ...

[update] I will remain subscribed to this thread for the fine info some members provide [update #2 : besides, I'm sure I get a good laugh in every now and then, in some cases when posts are intentionally humorous, and in some cases when they were not as you have to admit, there has been a lot of laughable stuff posted here lately if you are a geek like me, and sit back and casually read it rather than get involved in posting about it ...]

So, anyone can feel free to PM me concerning any Dayton HD discussion/thoughts/questions/etc -- I'll be glad to provide any input or assistance if I can.

Jeff you've helped me numerous times. When I was a newbie you offered great advice. D* had done a poor installation on an OTA Sensar antenna and you helped me with elevation profiles and suggested better antennas. Most recently you helped me by providing information on proper antenna grounding techniques. You have spent a lot of your personal time helping people on here and you will be missed. Thanks for the offer to help out as needed outside of this thread.

If I could get all the HD programming that's available from the big three providers for $20 a month, I'd pay it. But there's no way of getting the HD programming without also paying for the locals and SD programming that I would never watch. You should be able to get the following from TWC:

$10/month (approx) Limited package, ch 2-25
$10/month (approx) HD set-top box (this will in turn get you the HD locals plus Discovery HD and TNT-HD)
$7/month, HD Tier (HD Net, HD Movies, InHD, InHD2, ESPN-HD)

TWC Rakesh.S package here. South of Dayton in Oakwood. No settop -- cablecard instead.

Several weeks back, had the same problem. 707-749 are there, PQ good. 755-765 gone nada, nothing. Cablecard can tune the stations, but no content. 2-79 looks per usual.

Anyone else in the same boat with no HD Tier?

Also, what's happened with 750, 751 and 752? Can't tune them anymore.

C'ya
Cran

TWC Rakesh.S package here. South of Dayton in Oakwood. No settop -- cablecard instead.

Several weeks back, had the same problem. 707-749 are there, PQ good. 755-765 gone nada, nothing. Cablecard can tune the stations, but no content. 2-79 looks per usual.

Anyone else in the same boat with no HD Tier?

I have the same setup and the same problem intermittently. Usually, one of two things happens: (1) When I go into my TV's diagnostic menu, the cable card diagnostic options are greyed out. This tells me that the CC is in the middle of a reboot or otherwise inaccessible. In ~5 minutes, the screen goes blank, and then returns, and the problem fixes itself. Or, (2) I can get into the CC diagnostics just fine from the TV menu, and everything checks out on the card, but I still get nothing from 755+. I usually call TWC and they send a new hit to the card, which doesn't do anything immediately. But then a little later on, the card comes back. I've also had it gone for a couple of days without calling TWC, and it spontaneously returns on its own. So whether my call to TWC actually makes a difference, I don't know. I've been meaning to schedule an appointment to get a new card, but based on my experience with TWC and CCs, I've been dreading that. So I'll probably put it off until the card dies completely and won't come back.

Don't know if that helps at all, but that's my experience.

Phil

Damn TW... I called yesterday to downgrade my service and today I'm told "you can't keep your HD-DVR unless you have at least DigiPic 1000" and if I make *any* changes to my account, I'll lose the discount codes I currently have for Earthlink Cable and a discount TWC gave me off of my cable rate.

I've been told this before, then next time I call, I'm told more or less "yes, you can do this and keep your box".

2100 words... Nitewatchman, you really need to learn to cut down on these long posts :)

What exactly are you referring to when you say "100% bit rate"? Are you referring to the bitrate in Mb/s, say that E*(Dish Network) gets from it's feed from say, TNTHD or HDnet? Do we even know what that is, and what codec/etc is used? And, Are you saying that's exactly what E* passes though to their customers? If so, Where exactly did you read this, as I'd like to see it. I'm not asking to be a *smart*ass, sorry, I just don't understand what it is you are talking about. [Update:, Yes, I know you said OTA is the "standard" that everyone compares to, and that is what you are reffering to, but that is certianly news to me and I don't really see how that can necessarily apply to mean "100% bitrate" for say, ESPNHD via your cable or sat provider ]

100% bit rate would be passing on exactly what is sent to them from the provider. Like I said before, the only channels that I have *read* about being compressed or bit-starved is a handful of the Voom channels. *Supposedly* ESPNHD, TNTHD, etc., is left untouched by E*.

As far as bit-rate itself, I'm talking about putting the channels on transponders that are able to give the full bandwidth requirements to the channel during high bandwidth times. D* is well known for putting multiple HD channels on a single transponder which causes lower max "bit-rates" (amount of bandwidth) for both channels during bandwidth intensive video. I'm obviously not totally informed on what the max output of a single transponder is, but I have seen TWC and D* side by side, and there is no comparison, TWC wins hands down. I have not seen E* side by side with either of them to be able to make a personal comparison, I'm just going by what has been posted on AVS comparing to two.

As for E*, I do recall seeing a thread about bitrates from them sometime over the summer in programming area, where someone with the equipment to do so measured it from their HD services, and I don't remember the exact numbers but If I recall correctly it was generally somewhere in the average of 12Mb/s~15Mb/s. I also don't know if they are, or are not doing the "HD-lite" thing like D* is. IF none of that is the case however, and whatever the current situation actually is, I'd think you can't necessarily expect the current situation from E* will be the same in say, a couple of years as it is now.

If they wanted to get a good example, they would take the average bit rate of the same show (preferably HD, like a football game) and compare E* to D*. 12-15Mb/s would be reasonable for an SD show on ESPNHD (with the borders on the side), as there isn't as much information being sent. Once again, from what I have *read*, E* does not have their HD (outside of a handful of Voom channels) bit-starved or down-rezed (from say 1920x1080 to 1280x1080, like D* has done).

Now to that 19.4Mb/s bitrate "number". For the most part, AFAIK, the only thing that is really signficant about that bitrate is that with ATSC 8VSB(which is the system used for digital Over-the-air broadcast, 8VSB being the signal modulation), 19.38Mb/s is the amount of data payload available from a digital broadcast station. One reason why it's 19.38Mb/s is because they "designed" the system so that you could fit ONE high quality 1080i HD broadcast via MPEG2 within that amount of bandwidth, while still having a robust, receivable Over-the-air delivery system. There is also a good amount of bandwidth that is used for the OTA digital broadcast that is taken up by the necessary foward error correction -- If we didn't need that more robust FEC to send signals OTA rather than via a wire or fiber/etc, we'd have something a bit over 30Mb/s available bandwidth available OTA.

Which brings us back to the original bit-rate point, if you limit the bandwidth to below the full bandwidth then you lose picture quality during bandwidth intensive video. This is the same reason why a station with multiple digital channels don't look as good as a station with a single digital channel (see WHIO-DT before and after they removed the sub channel).

With ATSC, there is also 16VSB, which is designed for cable(but noone I know of is using it), which doesn't need all that extra error correction, and can fit about 38Mb/s into a 6MHZ RF channel. QAM is similiar data payload rate in that with it, ~38Mb/s fits In one 6MHZ RF channel(each TV "channel" or cable channel uses 6MHZ of spectrum). Thus, cableco's can put TWO 19.4Mb/s streams from say, broadcast stations into One 6MHZ channel -- and they do.

I'm not sure what your point is here... like I said before, TWC looks MUCH better than D*, and this just helps to prove my point that TWC is giving the channel full bandwidth, unlike D*.


[update/clarification - So, I guess from that standpoint, I could see the point of thinking of 19.4mb/s via MPEG2 for HD as some sort of "standard" bitrate to look at -- Is that what you're talking about as the "standard" most people are talking about when they refer to "compressed" or "uncompressed"? the ATTC tests? I didn't realize most people here were even aware of them.]

Bingo! And I think most people are aware that there is a certain amount of bandwidth needed to send any type of data, whether video, audio, or text. They might not know what that number is, but they realize when you don't have the full bandwidth available you lose information. On the computer if you don't have enough bandwidth available the video stops and says "buffering", unfortunately you don't have that option with a television broadcast, if it doesn't get all the data needed you lose detail.


Many broadcast engineers I've read posts from here on AVS in the past seem to feel that the encoders have improved since those tests were performed and also along with the use of techniques such as statistial multiplexing, more multicasting can be done, including 1080i + mulsticasting, or more than 1 SD multicast with 720p or 1080i. Although, having not actually seen this for myself, I'm skeptical.

Until we see this in action, I agree with you. I'm very skeptical at the moment. The satellite and OTA stations have definitely not moved to this technology, as it shows during bandwidth intensive video if they aren't given the full bandwidth (it even shows on full bandwidth channels during certain video, i.e. strobe light).

also keep in mind when we are throwing these bitrate #'s around -- even 1080i HD, say from a OTA broadcast station isn't going to even need, say 18~19Mb/s ALL the time

Exactly, but when D* puts a top end limit on bitrate then your picture quality takes a HUGE hit during bandwidth intensive video, such as HD football. That was my original point, when you won't allot them the full bandwidth (i.e. bitrate), and/or you down-resolution the video then the picture quality suffers...

I don't know what TWC "does", including with their STB's, but I do know I have seen complaints in other threads concerning the quality of the scalers/STB's from various STB's various cableco's use(including TW), and all those complaints didn't come from Q of banditz .... There is a post here(in a very interesting thread concerning a somewhat related subject) and discussion here, referring to quite substantial PQ diffierences between SA 8300 PQ vs. Cablecard PQ with a certian set(which just happens to be the same set Q of Banditz is using, I believe ):

I still find it hard to believe that the PQ coming from the 8300 is anywhere close to as bad as what D* puts out. I have seen a comparison (admittedly not on the same model TV as Q) of the 8300 next to what D* puts out (not sure of the STB model), and the difference is obvious. The 8300 wins hands down. I'm not saying the 8300 is perfect, but I do know for my 2 HDTV's the PQ is excellent, especially compared to D*.

In closing, what I am trying to say more than anything else is, you might want to think twice about jumping all over someone who comes here and posts their reports about what they think about such+such PQ from such and such channel or provider. I'd also caution trying to make any sorts of conclusions such as "well, I'm using such and such whiz-bang set and don't see that problem, so the problem must be with your set, or because it isn't calibrated/etc/etc/ ...." It's not a "I'm right and you're wrong" kind of thing. You'd really have to see what he's seeing on his set+with his equipment+setup to get a better idea of where he's coming from ... and, I expect, IF you could do that, you might just end up being very surprised ......

I never said anything about his TV... I do think he probably had a bad cable line coming into his house, however. As I've said about 100 times now, having seen TWC vs D* head to head, with 3 different STB's from TWC (standard HD box, DVR8000HD, DVR8300HD) all of them have been FAR superior to D*. This isn't me advocating for Time Warner either, read back a couple of pages and you will see that I hate TWC. I'm looking for another provider, which will probably be E* for the time being (you are correct, what is best today might not be best tomorrow, next week, or next year) because I'm sick of the price increases and lack of adding HD channels to Time Warner. E* might not be much better about adding channels, but if they add ESPN2HD and the rest of the Vooms, to go with the current Vooms and HD choices, the decision becomes easy. I would be saving $30 a month off my bill and getting more HD... assuming E* doesn't compress/down-resolution/bit-starve them, which is still up in the air at the moment, I will make the move.

Damn TW... I called yesterday to downgrade my service and today I'm told "you can't keep your HD-DVR unless you have at least DigiPic 1000" and if I make *any* changes to my account, I'll lose the discount codes I currently have for Earthlink Cable and a discount TWC gave me off of my cable rate.

I've been told this before, then next time I call, I'm told more or less "yes, you can do this and keep your box".

Same problem, Hall. I called twice and both CSR's said it. Time Warner is out to piss off every customer they have, IMO.

Time Warner is out to piss off every customer they have, IMO. Did you notice they now have an option on their touch-tone menu for "downgrading your service" ??

mlbUC,

It looks like E* just started downrezzing all the Voom channels instead of just a few. Check this thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611874&page=1&pp=30

mlbUC,

It looks like E* just started downrezzing all the Voom channels instead of just a few. Check this thread.

Hmmm... this changes whether I'm willing to go to E* now...

Did you notice they now have an option on their touch-tone menu for "downgrading your service" ??

Yes, I was very surprised when I heard that. I guess they send it over to retention directly through that extension...

Yes, I was very surprised when I heard that. I guess they send it over to retention directly through that extension... Coincidence that they just had a price increase ?? :D

2100 words... Nitewatchman, you really need to learn to cut down on these long posts :)

You're no slouch yourself, mlbUC, what with 845 words and all. And right after Nitewatchman said he was signing off. :( Hopefully he won't be able to resist and he'll come back. :)

CincyKev

You're no slouch yourself, mlbUC, what with 845 words and all. And right after Nitewatchman said he was signing off. :( Hopefully he won't be able to resist and he'll come back. :)

Yeah, I had to pull a lot of words out of his post for quotes... I never realized he said he was signing off, however. Must have just glanced over it after reading the first 2000 words.

Don't remain a stranger, Nitewatchman. I appreciate your input, even if you rub me the wrong way sometimes... :)

Does anyone with an HTPC have the ability to measure the resolution and bitrate (average) that TWC is sending to us ?? A sampling of channels is fine but one channel to include for sure would be Discovery HD Theatre (or is that not possible anymore since they're encrypting DiscHD and TNT-HD now) ??

Does anyone with an HTPC have the ability to measure the resolution and bitrate (average) that TWC is sending to us ?? A sampling of channels is fine but one channel to include for sure would be Discovery HD Theatre (or is that not possible anymore since they're encrypting DiscHD and TNT-HD now) ??

In the past, I have recorded stuff using my Fusion 3 QAM card and analyzed bitrate using TSReader Lite. I can do this for off-air pickup or for cable channels. If there's interest, I'll grab a few snippets of what I can pick up on the cable.

Since Discovery HD and TNT-HD are now scrambled I can't see or record them anymore. :mad:

I'm really curious to see if TW does anything to the channels they rebroadcast. This is all related to the recent uproar of Dish messing with the VOOM channels. I commented that I was told, by TWC locally, that they don't process or manipulate the signal at all, but I don't think people believe it. The cablecos are evil, of course. :D

It would be great if you could compare even a few random 5-minute snippets of CBS-OTA vs CBS-TWC and/or any of the other channels you can receive on both. It sucks that you can't do this with Discovery HD though.

I'm really curious to see if TW does anything to the channels they rebroadcast. This is all related to the recent uproar of Dish messing with the VOOM channels. I commented that I was told, by TWC locally, that they don't process or manipulate the signal at all, but I don't think people believe it. The cablecos are evil, of course. :D

It would be great if you could compare even a few random 5-minute snippets of CBS-OTA vs CBS-TWC and/or any of the other channels you can receive on both. It sucks that you can't do this with Discovery HD though.

We in the broadcast stations in Dayton have been told by TWC that the PID's are change in the signal for them to broadcast the signal on the cable system. No bit rates are change. So the bit rate that you see on OTA should be the same as on cable.

I don't believe that TWC does manipulate the signal as my contact at TW told me this. I trust him and nothing he's told me before has been "proven" differently. I just need/want "evidence" to show others.

Post deleted -- oops --- Sorry for the disruption, hit the wrong button -- post was meant to be a PM.

TSReader should tell me the PID's as well. It may be a little bit before I get time to capture some transport streams but I'll see if I can get to it this weekend. Unfortunately my projector is down (it needs a new bulb) so I just have a regular PC monitor hooked up to the HTPC to work the thing at the moment.

Regarding the Dolby Digital issue on the latest software for the 8300HD boxes, I didn't realize that it affected me. I've only seen it *once* though, so I thought little of it. As noted in the TWC/Passport/8000/8300 thread at this site, rebooting isn't needed (maybe). I didn't realize it at the time what was wrong, so I went into the "Settings", then "A" and toggled DD off and then back on and it works. Others in the other thread have success with this too.

Got in touch with a rep at TWC again today and got an official explanation on why I can't get limited cable plus keep my HD box. Well, in fact, I can, but.... In order to limit me to channels 2-25, TW has to install a filter/trap to keep me from receiving channels above 25. I thought to keep me from receiving 26 - 78 but they claim *ALL* channels above 25. You know what, I still think they're wrong.

Do filters/traps exist that only block 25-78 ?? If so, for channels above 78, they can control, i.e. block, them through my converter box.

All of you with the Rakesh S package, you have cablecards, right ??

Got in touch with a rep at TWC again today and got an official explanation on why I can't get limited cable plus keep my HD box. Well, in fact, I can, but.... In order to limit me to channels 2-25, TW has to install a filter/trap to keep me from receiving channels above 25. I thought to keep me from receiving 26 - 78 but they claim *ALL* channels above 25. You know what, I still think they're wrong.

Do filters/traps exist that only block 25-78 ?? If so, for channels above 78, they can control, i.e. block, them through my converter box.

All of you with the Rakesh S package, you have cablecards, right ??

I have 2-25, but still get the HD stations plus the HD pack. By law, TWC must provide the HD locals it carries on the lowest available tier (the limited tier). Thus, any attempt by TWC to block them would be patently illegal.

Do you have a TW cable box or do you use CableCard ??

You in fact have the exact setup that I'm trying to get, not counting the HD-DVR ??

Do you have a TW cable box or do you use CableCard ??

You in fact have the exact setup that I'm trying to get, not counting the HD-DVR ??


I have a 3250HD and 8300HD.

Any inputs on a good indoor OTA that someone has used as a HDTV antenna??

I'm getting a JVC Pro 1080P soon and would like to be able to access local HDTV (so my wife doesn't think I'm out of my mind on getting this unit) until I understand TWC's digital new (more $) tiers and decide whether to go digital cable or Dish.

Sounds like the Silver Sensor would do it, but has anyone used something else with good results? I live in SW Beavercreek.

Any inputs on a good indoor OTA that someone has used as a HDTV antenna??

I'm getting a JVC Pro 1080P soon and would like to be able to access local HDTV (so my wife doesn't think I'm out of my mind on getting this unit) until I understand TWC's digital new (more $) tiers and decide whether to go digital cable or Dish.

Sounds like the Silver Sensor would do it, but has anyone used something else with good results? I live in SW Beavercreek.

I live in Beavercreek Township, which would be more NE Beavercreek, and can pick up all OTA HD channels with the Silver Sensor w/o a problem.

I live in Beavercreek Township, which would be more NE Beavercreek, and can pick up all OTA HD channels with the Silver Sensor w/o a problem.

Thanks for the input browerjs!! You just confirmed what I thought was the case based on my location, towers, etc.

Are you also using digital TWC or Dish/Direct? TWC's web site for here is almost impossible to decode what you get with different digital packages.

TWC's web site for here is almost impossible to decode what you get with different digital packages. I've looked at it enough times and asked them enough times that I can seem to make sense of it.... What are you after ??

Anyone else not getting WHIO 7-1 OTA since sometime yesterday?

Anyone else not getting WHIO 7-1 OTA since sometime yesterday?

I'm not having any problems here.

So when did WRGT-DT start stretching their SD programming? I had a small problem with WHIO-DT, but I moved the rotor one way and then back and got it, so maybe a signal problem?

Thanks for the input browerjs!! You just confirmed what I thought was the case based on my location, towers, etc.

Are you also using digital TWC or Dish/Direct? TWC's web site for here is almost impossible to decode what you get with different digital packages.

I use OTA for just WDTN-DT, everything else I pick up with TWC on my SA 8300 HD-DVR... (I guess you would have to use OTA or the HD-DVR in diagnostic mode to pick up the WB, but i don't watch any of that awful programming ;) )

I get the Digipic 2000 package from TWC which includes the box, the HD Tier, On Demands, HBO and SHO, and all the stations from 2-99.

I'm not having any problems here.

Thanks for letting me know.

I was able to get my other OTA DT stations ok, no hiccups.

After I got your post, I checked the antentnna connection to my HD Tivo and found the antenna cable came loose, resulting in no reception for WHIO.

All is well.

Thanks.

Well WRGT-DT is back to 4:3 ratio tonight.

Hello to all,

Just a small introduction. I am new to HD, just bought first HD TV for my home. I am still trying to find my way around this forum without getting lost. There is a lot of information here. I am not used to hundreds of pages to try to get through.

I have all the normal new viewer questons, but I will try to get them answered first by searching and reading as much as I can here. I know how painful it is to have to answer the same questions over and over. Right now I am trying to figure out just how useable my existing equipment is and how bad I want a whole new setup.

I hope to learn a lot and maybe someday have something useful to add back, so for the time being, I will just do a lot of reading and not much posting. I am looking foward to getting to know folks here.

Dave

DaytonDave: How are you receiving HD programming or are you not yet ??

What kind of "existing equipment" are you talking about ??

As for searching the thread, to some degree, don't be afraid to ask. What applied 6 months or a year ago may no longer apply, so an old question/answer may be wrong today.

DaytonDave: How are you receiving HD programming or are you not yet ??

What kind of "existing equipment" are you talking about ??

As for searching the thread, to some degree, don't be afraid to ask. What applied 6 months or a year ago may no longer apply, so an old question/answer may be wrong today.


Here is the run down. New TV, rest of the stuff is older. I just have to get everything hooked up and working with each other. Once Christmas is over and the room is re-arranged back to normal, I will be able to work with things. I do not have a decent enough OTA antenna. Right now I have one of the RCA antenna, but I am not thrilled with it. I am rather pleased with the TV.

TV - Sony 42A10
Receiver - Panasonic SA-HE100
DVD Player - Toshiba SD-510
DVD Burner - Sony RDR-GX7
TWC - SA 8300HD
RCA ANT706 Indoor/Outdoor HDTV Antenna

Other than out-of-town tv stations, you're only missing WDTN and the WB since you have TWC. I can live without the WB but it sure would be nice to get WDTN....

The AV receiver looks like a nice one. I'm not sure why you'd think it's possibly not usable. The DVD player looks European, well, all the links I find for it are from the UK, Germany, the Netherlands, etc, etc. Did you bring it from there ??

Welcome to the AVS Forum Dave.

Dave,

Where around Dayton are you located?

Welcome to the forum. I think you'll find the information very useful, and the debates sprirted, to say the least!

Paul

Dave,

Where around Dayton are you located?

Welcome to the forum. I think you'll find the information very useful, and the debates sprirted, to say the least!

Paul


Thanks for the welcome guys. The information so far has been very useful, to the point that I went ahead and made the official donation to the forum just to pay my dues.

I am in Beavercreek, not far from the mall. The light bleed keeps me from developing an astronomy hobby. I can't really afford it anyway.

The receiver, SA-HE100, I mainly bought because I needed a decent replacement that still had a phono input, as I still have some vinyl’s to listen to from time to time.

So far, I have not got all the connections working the way I would like. I need to just wait till I have the time and space to move wires and find the best paths for the video and audio connections. I am about ready to fire up VISIO to map things out. Does anyone have any VISIO templates for home theater connections and equipment?

The DVD player is a "big-box" store purchase. I don't remember just where it came from or even when I bought it. Probably BB. I want to see what happens in the HD DVD arena before I change it out.

The CD player is an old 5 cd platter changer, and I am having problems with it. I am thinking of getting one of the 300 storage versions as a replacement. That and one of the 300 versions of the DVD players too. I would like to set up some sort of a computer interface with a touch screen LCD monitor that would allow me to access and control all the DVD's and CD's.

I guess there is a universal remote that may do that as well, but I want to have the ability to access a large MP3 collection served from the computer too. Any ideas or solutions?

Has anyone set things up with the media version of XP?

The new Sony TV, 42A10, is very nice. I will also have to wait to adjust it till after the holidays as well. It has 7 inputs and each one is individually adjustable. So once the cabling is complete, then I will be able to finalize the TV's adjustments.

From reading about others setups and backgrounds, it would seem that I have a long way to go. At least I enjoy learning.

dave - take a look at media portal - its freeware and does a very nice job serving as a media center - I am running it now along with the fusion5 hdtv card. It plays any type of media I have a codec for - mp3, dvix, xvid, h264, mpeg4, vcd, svcd, ripped dvds. I have it hooked into my surround sound reciever via the optical out on the motherboard and component video - add that to the hd tivo and I can rock..

http://www.team-mediaportal.com/

as far as a remote control - take a look at the mx-3000 - pricey but cool
http://www.universalremote.com/products/index.php?item=mx3000



Thanks for the welcome guys. The information so far has been very useful, to the point that I went ahead and made the official donation to the forum just to pay my dues.

I am in Beavercreek, not far from the mall. The light bleed keeps me from developing an astronomy hobby. I can't really afford it anyway.

The receiver, SA-HE100, I mainly bought because I needed a decent replacement that still had a phono input, as I still have some vinyl’s to listen to from time to time.

So far, I have not got all the connections working the way I would like. I need to just wait till I have the time and space to move wires and find the best paths for the video and audio connections. I am about ready to fire up VISIO to map things out. Does anyone have any VISIO templates for home theater connections and equipment?

The DVD player is a "big-box" store purchase. I don't remember just where it came from or even when I bought it. Probably BB. I want to see what happens in the HD DVD arena before I change it out.

The CD player is an old 5 cd platter changer, and I am having problems with it. I am thinking of getting one of the 300 storage versions as a replacement. That and one of the 300 versions of the DVD players too. I would like to set up some sort of a computer interface with a touch screen LCD monitor that would allow me to access and control all the DVD's and CD's.

I guess there is a universal remote that may do that as well, but I want to have the ability to access a large MP3 collection served from the computer too. Any ideas or solutions?

Has anyone set things up with the media version of XP?

The new Sony TV, 42A10, is very nice. I will also have to wait to adjust it till after the holidays as well. It has 7 inputs and each one is individually adjustable. So once the cabling is complete, then I will be able to finalize the TV's adjustments.

From reading about others setups and backgrounds, it would seem that I have a long way to go. At least I enjoy learning.

So what happen to the Rose Bowl parade? Lets hope this isn't a sign of things to come.

I didn't watch it but I assume WKEF messed up.....

Is it time to start a phone-call campaign this afternoon ?? :D

Congratulations to WKEF on an excellent job broadcasting the Fiesta Bowl in HD today. I checked Cincinnati's WCPO out a few times today and it was plagued with the usual jagged lines. It was in SD for most of the first half too.

Congratulations to WKEF on an excellent job broadcasting the Fiesta Bowl in HD today. I checked Cincinnati's WCPO out a few times today and it was plagued with the usual jagged lines. It was in SD for most of the first half too.


I agree. There was a short bit in the pre-game where audio dropped off. Apparently a national problem. Also no 5.1 for the game -- nationally as well. So good job WKEF, and thank you for not switching to SD for the weather bug.

Anyone else having problems with WHIO? For the last week or so, my Panny has been reporting "Poor signal quality" & will not display picture/video. All other channels are rock solid. When I look at the signal strength with the H20 on the other set, it shows a constantly changing strength (from 82% to 94% - % of what, I have no idea). Other channels are steady at 96% or above.

Carl

Anyone else having problems with WHIO? For the last week or so, my Panny has been reporting "Poor signal quality" & will not display picture/video. All other channels are rock solid. When I look at the signal strength with the H20 on the other set, it shows a constantly changing strength (from 82% to 94% - % of what, I have no idea). Other channels are steady at 96% or above.

Carl

It's been ok for me.

No problems from WHIO-DT for me other than the usual (blue lines and whacked out audio when they switch from or to network feed).

Don't know if anyone else noticed, but HD is frequently missing from Conan on WDTN. I sent an email to the CE. I believe their switching is still handled by WISH in Indy, so maybe it'll be passed on?? WLWT always seems to get it right.

Has anyone with either TW or OTA noticed the station logo for ABC and/or FOX being too far off-screen ?? Not that I mind it that way, I just know it shouldn't be. I don't recall seeing WHIO's logo too far off, nor have I used something like AVIA to check overscan (can it do that ??).

avia can check for overscan.. I recently set mine to 4% all the way around and now the abc-hd logo is at the far right.. my overscan used to be somehting like 9-10% - at that time, abc hd was partially off the screen.

the abc nfl score bar sucks imho - too high - kills some of the screen

Has anyone with either TW or OTA noticed the station logo for ABC and/or FOX being too far off-screen ?? Not that I mind it that way, I just know it shouldn't be. I don't recall seeing WHIO's logo too far off, nor have I used something like AVIA to check overscan (can it do that ??).

On my CRT I have noticed the ABC-HD logo being off the screen, but on my projector it displays fully. The overscan on my CRT is obviously off, but it does not bother me (I don't watch much HD on it anyway).

On my CRT I have noticed the ABC-HD logo being off the screen, but on my projector it displays fully. The overscan on my CRT is obviously off, but it does not bother me (I don't watch much HD on it anyway).

The logo's not off the screen on my display but I've been into the service menu to correctly adjust my overscan.

Does anyone have an email address for TW in the dayton area to ask about the status of getting NBC HD in their lineup? The Olympics are coming up. More than that, I just want the HD for all the local channels on cable. I know in the diagnostic mode, you can see they have reserved 702 and 726. Thanks in advance.

The official answer is that TW-WOH and WDTN are "talking" but haven't come to a resolution.

Does anyone have an email address for TW in the dayton area to ask about the status of getting NBC HD in their lineup? The Olympics are coming up. More than that, I just want the HD for all the local channels on cable. I know in the diagnostic mode, you can see they have reserved 702 and 726. Thanks in advance.


Wouldn't it be pretty easy just to get a small set top antenna and get it for free over the air? Why pay for something thats free?

The contractor just walked out the door. It seems that there is no technical assistance for the installers on the weekends.

I wanted to see how well my set works with the cablecard along with the SA8300 HD PVR. First thing out of his mouth is that I have all the connections wrong and that the box and card will not work together. He thinks.

What I am left with is a cable card with no premium content, only the standard channels. The PVR still has all the content with no loss. I kept the card and will try to work with TWC to see if they can make things work next week during the day.

I really do not like getting angry with an installer, but arrogance is nothing but worthless. Don't tell me you know everything. At least I am home on Saturday watching B-Ball! :mad:

Wouldn't it be pretty easy just to get a small set top antenna and get it for free over the air? Why pay for something thats free? Please, enlighten me. Heck, I've even got the antenna already.... How do I get HD over the air for free ??

The contractor just walked out the door. It seems that there is no technical assistance for the installers on the weekends.

What I am left with is a cable card with no premium content, only the standard channels. I kept the card and will try to work with TWC to see if they can make things work next week during the day. Remember, they're open 24 hours a day so keep on them. Call them and verify what level of service you have. If they don't list you as having a cablecard, you might have a problem. If they do, ask them to "hit" your card. Others here have ran into this, though not with the premium channels, as I recall, but the HD Tier, and it req'd customer service to hit it a couple of times. I think everyone here who's ran into this got it to work.

By the way, why do you want both the cablecard (it's sooo limited feature-wise) and a set-top ?? The only benefit today is higher resolution (the SA set-top is limited to something in the 1390 line range, so I've read).

I see from scanning this thread that TWC is now encrypting DiscoveryHD. Bummer. Just got an HD set with both ATSC and QAM tuners. I found what looks to be WCET (PBS) around 105-?. Anyway, does anyone have a list of HD channels a QAM tuner might get with TWC Classic Tier in Beavercreek?

Thanks!

Don

In the clear, you should get WHIO-DT, WKEF-DT, WRGT-DT, as well as various PBS channels (the PBS channels people get in different areas around Dayton are hard to make sense of). Those of us with HD set-tops from TWC can also get WBDT-DT by putting the box in 'diag' mode. That channel remains available by tuning directly to it, it doesn't show up in the guide, for example, for some period of time. WDTN-DT (NBC) is not available at all yet.

Go to TW's Dayton website, www.twdayton.com, and input your zip code. Choose Programming from the top bar, then Channel Lineups. Turns out you get (3) PBS stations, WPTD, WPTO, and WCET, as you've already discovered. Scroll to the 700-channel range and those are the digital/HD channels.