Thanks Hall!

Discovered a lot of the HD channels by hunt-'n-peck (e.g. 16-2, 7-1)! Never figured those would work on cable! A lot of learning to do.

Later!

Don

I don't have a built-in tuner so I can't help with the actual numbers that you'd tune to. I know that 1450khz and s1051097 have posted the numbers before though.

Searching found this:

"WBDT is appearing on QAM channel 109.1 on my Fusion HD card. WCET is on 109.2 - 109.6 now."

Here's more, though these are almost 1 year old now:

91.1 WHIO
93.1 WRGT
93.2 WKEF
108.1-5 WPTD
108.6-10 WPTO
109.1-4 WCET
109.5 WBDT (was missing, I'll have to see if it's back)
114.1 Discovery HD
114.2 TNT HD
117-120.1 random EWTN Stuff

(both of those are from posts by 1450khz)

I don't have a built-in tuner so I can't help with the actual numbers that you'd tune to. I know that 1450khz and s1051097 have posted the numbers before though.

Searching found this:

"WBDT is appearing on QAM channel 109.1 on my Fusion HD card. WCET is on 109.2 - 109.6 now."

Here's more, though these are almost 1 year old now:

91.1 WHIO
93.1 WRGT
93.2 WKEF
108.1-5 WPTD
108.6-10 WPTO
109.1-4 WCET
109.5 WBDT (was missing, I'll have to see if it's back)
114.1 Discovery HD
114.2 TNT HD
117-120.1 random EWTN Stuff

(both of those are from posts by 1450khz)

I did find the WB, and I think it was somewhere around 109. My notes (and TV) are at home, so I cannot confirm.

Thanks!!

Don

I did find the WB, and I think it was somewhere around 109. My notes (and TV) are at home, so I cannot confirm.

Thanks!!

Don

The best thing I found to do when looking for in-the-clear channels was just to let the TV scan and add channels automatically. You'll get a lot of encrypted stations, but you'll also find all the ones that are available. Takes awhile, but it's worth it.

Remember, they're open 24 hours a day so keep on them. Call them and verify what level of service you have. If they don't list you as having a cablecard, you might have a problem. If they do, ask them to "hit" your card. Others here have ran into this, though not with the premium channels, as I recall, but the HD Tier, and it req'd customer service to hit it a couple of times. I think everyone here who's ran into this got it to work.

I agree with Hall 100%. I've been through several TWC installers and more tech support phone calls than I can count. And I can confidently say that if you search this thread for "cablecard" and read all the posts, you will know more than 99% of the people you'll talk to at TWC. They'll tell you so many patently false things that it's not even funny. (My favorite one of late was the tier 2 tech who told my installer that TWC cable cards "don't work with Sony TVs." WHAT?!?!?)

"Keep on them" is the best advice.

Phil

Please, enlighten me. Heck, I've even got the antenna already.... How do I get HD over the air for free ??


You need an antenna that picks up UHF. Depending on how far you are from the towers in Miamisburg, you may get by with a small set top antenna, http://www.antennaweb.org can show you what direction and distance you are from the towers. If your further away, then you may need a rooftop antenna.

I forgot to ask, I assume your HDTV has a digital tuner in it to pick up over the air signals. If not you'll need a tuner. All the bigger HDTV's have that now but some of the older ones didn't.

anyone use dishnetwork know how to setup Local HDTV?? I can't find any HDTV local channel on my guide or setup menu, but i was able to get regular local channel through the HD tuner from dishnetwork. do i need lock some certain freq/ channel in the setup in order to get local HDTV??

What Dish receiver do you have ?? Does the method the owner's manual say not work ?? I think, and there's no logic behind this, that Dish requires you to pay them for non-HD locals. When you do that, it "allows" the receiver to display the OTA locals in the receiver's on-screen guide.

I agree with Hall 100%. I've been through several TWC installers and more tech support phone calls than I can count. And I can confidently say that if you search this thread for "cablecard" and read all the posts, you will know more than 99% of the people you'll talk to at TWC. They'll tell you so many patently false things that it's not even funny. (My favorite one of late was the tier 2 tech who told my installer that TWC cable cards "don't work with Sony TVs." WHAT?!?!?)

"Keep on them" is the best advice.

Phil

I agree with both Hall and s1059197.

On my cablecard install, the cablecard didn't respond while the tech was here (his first install). I told him to leave it, and we'd figure it out later. That was on Saturday at 5PM. Checked all thru the evening and Sunday morn. No HD Tier. Called TWC at 930AM, nice lady on the phone hit the cablecard, and viola (sic) there the HD Tier was.

4 weeks later, no HD Tier on Saturday afternoon. Called TWC to report no HD Tier, including ESPN, which had the Ohio State (and somebody) game on. Reason: <patently *stupid* false thing> "The Ohio State game is on blackout" </patently *stupid* false thing>. I said, "but it's on 26 -- that doesn't make any sense!?" No answer. HD Tier out for the rest of Saturday, but I called Sunday, and it was back.

4 or so weeks later, no HD Tier. Called on Saturday, they hit the card, and by Sunday, it was back. And so on. In about a week, I'll need to call again.

C'ya
Cran

P.S. Here's where TWC will go for the next level of excuses when the current ones wear out (keep hitting reload)

http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~ballard/bofh/bofhserver.pl

I don't have a built-in tuner so I can't help with the actual numbers that you'd tune to. I know that 1450khz and s1051097 have posted the numbers before though.

Searching found this:

"WBDT is appearing on QAM channel 109.1 on my Fusion HD card. WCET is on 109.2 - 109.6 now."

Here's more, though these are almost 1 year old now:

91.1 WHIO
93.1 WRGT
93.2 WKEF
108.1-5 WPTD
108.6-10 WPTO
109.1-4 WCET
109.5 WBDT (was missing, I'll have to see if it's back)
114.1 Discovery HD
114.2 TNT HD
117-120.1 random EWTN Stuff

(both of those are from posts by 1450khz)

I have since moved from Fairborn to Beavercreek, but the numbers seem to be the same there too.

Here's what's changed since then.
109.1 is now WBDT
109.2-4 are WCET
114.1 and 114.2 are now scrambled (damn you TWC bastards! :mad: )
117-120 are now scrambled, not sure what's there. The EWTN was likely for testing.

What Dish receiver do you have ?? Does the method the owner's manual say not work ?? I think, and there's no logic behind this, that Dish requires you to pay them for non-HD locals. When you do that, it "allows" the receiver to display the OTA locals in the receiver's on-screen guide.

I have the 811 HD receiver, but I just couldn't get any local HD to work, I was thinking there might be some setting in the setup menu that I have to set in order to tune/lock in the local HD?

I downloaded the manual and the steps seem pretty clear....

Do you subscribe to the Dayton locals (non HD) ??

I have since moved from Fairborn to Beavercreek, but the numbers seem to be the same there too.

Here's what's changed since then.
109.1 is now WBDT
109.2-4 are WCET
114.1 and 114.2 are now scrambled (damn you TWC bastards! :mad: )
117-120 are now scrambled, not sure what's there. The EWTN was likely for testing.

That confirms pretty much what I am seeing.

By the way, I presume you are doing some sort of cable tuner (other than a TWC set top or CableCard)? Have you had any problems with the sound disappearing on all the HD/digital channels? Last night I was wondering through the digital channels looking for unencrypted HD stuff, and my sound disappeared. It was like that this morning too.

Sound for normal analog comes through fine. Not discounting a problem with the set here as it has two tuners and maybe the audio path of the digital tuner went south. (Wouldn't be happy with that since the set is not even a week old!)

Thanks!

Don

Any word on the following(TWC):

a new version of passport with the 8300HD which actually supports firewire (IEEE 1394) as advertised;
ESPN2-HD;
UniversalHD (which other TWC systems now have had for months);
National Geographic HD;
Fox Sports Net HD;
WGN HD; and
MTV-HD?

Any word on the following(TWC):

a new version of passport with the 8300HD which actually supports firewire (IEEE 1394) as advertised;
ESPN2-HD;
UniversalHD (which other TWC systems now have had for months);
National Geographic HD;
Fox Sports Net HD;
WGN HD; and
MTV-HD?

I expect UniversalHD by the olympics, but I don't plan on holding my breath.

There is a rumor that ESPN2 may be available in the next 3-4 months as TWC and Disney are working on a new contract.

National Geographic HD may be covered by the NBC/Universal contract and so it could come as soon as UniversalHD.

I don't think Fox Sports Net Ohio currently offers HD, so you'll have to wait for that.

MHD (MTV-HD) launched January 16th 2006. ESPN2-HD launched January 2005. I wouldn't expect to hear anything about MHD until next year, maybe.

WGN HD & TBS HD are probably not high demand channels and so we probably won't see them any time soon.

That confirms pretty much what I am seeing.

By the way, I presume you are doing some sort of cable tuner (other than a TWC set top or CableCard)? Have you had any problems with the sound disappearing on all the HD/digital channels? Last night I was wondering through the digital channels looking for unencrypted HD stuff, and my sound disappeared. It was like that this morning too.

Sound for normal analog comes through fine. Not discounting a problem with the set here as it has two tuners and maybe the audio path of the digital tuner went south. (Wouldn't be happy with that since the set is not even a week old!)

Thanks!

Don

I am using a FusionHD3 QAM tuner card in a Home Theater PC install. Unfortunately, I haven't tried watching much HD over QAM lately because of my display device being out (projector trouble). Watching it on a 19" PC monitor sort of defeats the purpose. I also have crappy RG-59 cable on this house which causes some signal problems on certain QAM channels. That problem will go away once I get done with my structured wire drops to each room. That said, I haven't noticed trouble with the sound when I did try to watch HD.

Had TWC call me offering a discount to try HD for a couple months, but I said no since I was dropping RoadRunner and wouldn't be eligible for the discount anymore.

Im running that receiver along with a TERK TV5 OTA and I scanned for channels but they work but some come in pixelated.

I'm hooking it up with DVI from the Box to the TV and it's a Westinghouse 32" LCD.

Just wondering what stations there are so I can manually add them, the ones that are missing, and I can get good reception.

Also, is it better to hook it up through RG6 coax to my tv or DVI?

I just heard HD doesn't pixelate and mine's pixelating.

Any help would be awesome!
Paul in Kettering

I would guess that your set-top down-converts the output through the RF connection. Same with RCA (composite) or S-Video. You'll only get "HD" via DVI, HDMI, or component connections.

HD is just a higher resolution/bandwidth version of digital TV signals. Of course it can pixellate. When that happens, there's probably nothing you can do unless it's antenna related. If you list examples of when you saw pixellation and on what show, there's a chance others saw it too and if so, you know it's not "your" problem.

mumblyp,

You're probably getting a pixelated picture due to signal breakup. You're using an indoor antenna, right? See if you can get the antenna near a window facing the towers.

Usually, dtv is 'all or nothing' reception, but you will see blotchiness if you have a weak signal, or if there is significant multipath, which there very well could be on an indoor setup.

Paul

i can get local backup channel at 94xx, but couldn't get local HD at channel 2-99 for dishnetwork!! I got he 811 HD receiver from dishnetwork, and connect via DVI & component. anyone know the setup in order to get HD local. I know I subscribe for local channels

Ok, going to try this again, perhaps with a little different style of posting.

mumblyp,

Paul's right on the money. Only other thing I could think of that could be a possibility is it could be a non reception related issue involved with processing of the video signal being done "by the set", so to speak -- could even be something specific to the DVI connection - If so, you might want to check "hardware" and display areas at AVSforum and see if you can find anyone else having the issue with your set or the LST3510 and DVI. [update: You might also want to try using component video connection from STB to set, and/or try adjusting EE or "sharpness" setting to see if that does anything].

If it's a reception related issue, the signal has to be extremely "marginal" condition for the decoder to have such a hard time at it, and, there should also be other indications reception issues are involved -- It's usually very unusual to have such a marginal signal conditions without also experiening on screen data loss(usually shows up as "green" blocks for the missing data) as well frequent dropouts(both audio and video simultanously), or "low" or "bouncing around" reading on the receiver's signal quality meter -- For instance, if the "lowest" readings are at/below/around the readings which are required to just barely be at the "threshold", or "on the edge of the cliff" for reception correspond with when you see loss of data/pixelization or have audio/video dropouts - then it's a reception related issue.

In order to receive the digital/HD stations by hooking up the antenna to your display, the display has to have a built-in ATSC tuner (otherwise you'll just get the analog stations) -- If your set has one of those, might be a good idea to try it and see if the problem you're seeing go away. if It does go away, and it isn't because its tuner is a little better sensitivity/selectivity wise, or at handling multipath(reception issues) then the LG STB, then there's something going on that's probably specific to DVI input on your set, or the DVI output of your receiver ... Again, probably best to see to see if you can find any posts in hardware or display area about the issue with your STB and/or display model, in case others have ran across it as well and how they were able to fix it.


S002wjh,

You need to hook up an OTA antenna to the 811 in order to receive the HD/digital local stations. They aren't available currently via the dish/dish locals package, you can only get the "old fashioned" analog stations(but converted to SD digital by dish network) that way. For more info on OTA antennas, you might want to start out at the OTA antenna FAQ in hardware area, here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957

Welcome back Nitewatchman... as a frequent lurker/reader of posts here, I am glad to have your knowledge and insight back in our forum. Cheers!

I'm convinced that Time Warner is never going to carry NBC...

Since it's nearly time for the Olympics, is anyone else using anything besides TWC & OTA? I've grown so accustomed to the DVR, I don't want to schedule my evening based on when/what Olympic events are televised.

I was looking into Dish Network because they offered a HD-DVR that should record local HD-channels. After 30 minutes on the phone, I'm still confused on pricing.

Pros/Cons for switching from TWC DigiPic /w HD|DVR to some crazy package on Dish Network? REAL pricing info (not before/after rebate...3 month discount and whatever else)?

Thanks!

I know with Dish you likely need to pay around $250 up-front for their HD-DVR. Were you told that ?? With Dish, you can subscribe to their lowest tier, AT60, I believe, plus local channels, and then pick up your HD locals OTA.

Go to Dish's website and do the "build your own" setup. Never mind .... it doesn't appear that you can get the 942 receiver through their website. They keep trying to give me an 811 (HD, non-DVR set-top) and a standalone DVR.

Both D* and E* offer HD-DVRs that record local stations via an antenna. I've been looking into this myself, but I am chicken about changing service providers. I've found that D*, E* and TWC all offer packages that cover my needs (some better than others) for about the same monthly cost (meaning no significant cost difference across the board). Personally I have found that I can get a better selection of programming from D* (more sports and quality HD programming). I haven't heard enough good things about the Voom channels to make me think they're worth considering.

Personal Pros/Cons (Assuming all major HD locals are available from each provider)

Pros D*:
ESPNU
ESPN2-HD
UniversalHD
Subscription to out of market FSNs
Generally fastest to add new channels

Cons D*:
"Unknown" weather problems (Some say no problems while others do)
"HD-Lite"?
No TNT-HD
No InHD channels
Large Upfront cost ($549)
Need for extra dishes for new programming?
Contracts
Equipment costs on failure and upgrade(MPEG4)


Pros E*:
Lower Upfront cost ($250)
Subscription to out of market FSNs
TNT-HD
Generally fast about adding channels

Cons E*:
"Unknown" weather problems (Some say no problems while others do)
Cannot seem to configure a system that allows me to use a 942 on the HDTV and two additonal recievers on SDTVs.
"HD-Lite"?
No ESPN2-HD
No UniversalHD
No InHD channels
Need for extra dishes for new programming
Contracts
Equipment costs on failure and upgrade(MPEG4)

Pros TWC:
Fewer weather problems (power is generally the only problem)
TNT-HD
No Upfront Cost
InHD Channels
FSN College Sports Pak

Cons TWC:
No ESPN2-HD (Coming soon?)
No UniversalHD (Coming soon?)
No ESPNU
Not complete FSN subscriptions
SLOOOOW to add channels
Monthly rental fees


I have used a calculator from AllSat when trying to price out Dish Equipment: E* Equipment Calculator (http://www.allsat.com/?kbid=1818)

This should show you the regular rates for Dish programming:E* Programming Prices (http://www.allsat.com/programming.php)
Make sure to add $5.00 for each extra receiver and $4.98 for DVR service.

I use this calculator when pricing DirecTV Equipment:D* Equipment Calculator (http://www.solidsignal.com/dtv/dtv_system_build.asp)

I use this for DirecTV Service:D* Programming Calculator (http://www.solidsignal.com/dtv-bill-calculator.asp)

I spoke to TWC tonight about an error on their website (722 WKEF NBC??), the lack of NBC in HD and the fact that the Olympics are coming... There was no new info.

Then minutes later I got a call back from the nice rep. She had a note in her company email that UniversalHD is being added for the Olympics on a temporary basis. It will be channel 977.

She also mentioned that TWC Dayton will merge with Cincinnati at some point. She did say that Cincinnati has an NBC HD channel now (905).

I read earlier that you can get the WB in HD by getting into Diag mode (on the STB press "SEL" and "Exit")

FYI

They will likely plead ignorance about the channel lineup on their website. If you notice at the bottom, it's not their information, but instead:

"Programming information provided by FYI Television"

I asked TW-WOH about carrying a Cincinnati NBC channel, especially after they merge with Southwestern Ohio division and was told it won't happen. To quote the message exactly, this is what was said: Copyright rules and Retransmission issues would preclude any outside signal carriage.

Just curious, but what was the point of her mentioning the merger ?? Was she implying that Western OH customers might get WLWT for NBC ??

They will likely plead ignorance about the channel lineup on their website. If you notice at the bottom, it's not their information, but instead:

"Programming information provided by FYI Television"

I asked TW-WOH about carrying a Cincinnati NBC channel, especially after they merge with Southwestern Ohio division and was told it won't happen. To quote the message exactly, this is what was said: Copyright rules and Retransmission issues would preclude any outside signal carriage.

Just curious, but what was the point of her mentioning the merger ?? Was she implying that Western OH customers might get WLWT for NBC ??

I think it was more me hoping than her implying.

Thanks for the input guys!

The allsat links were excellent. Much easier to understand compared to what was offered on the dish network site (and telephone call).

Thanks for the input guys!

The allsat links were excellent. Much easier to understand compared to what was offered on the dish network site (and telephone call).

I don't know why I didn't think of this before: A better option would be to get the Sony 30hour HD-DVR(DHGHDD250) that sports one ATSC tuner for OTA and QAM tuning (with cable card option). This unit can be found through froogle.com for ~$510. No service fees as it uses "TV Guide" (Guide+) for programming.

If you weren't pressed for time I would suggest waiting until "mid-late 2006" for the release of the TiVo series 3 which will sport dual ATSC tuners for OTA, dual NTSC, and dual cable cards. Although you can only use two of the tuners at a time.

Then minutes later I got a call back from the nice rep. She had a note in her company email that UniversalHD is being added for the Olympics on a temporary basis. It will be channel 977.

Hmmm, wonder if it'll be in the clear?

Probably not. :(

Damn, I meant to check to see if it was showing up already, at least in 'diag' mode.

The last few nights the digital audio on whio TWC 707 has been cutting out anyone else noticing the same thing? I have a SA 8000 connected to to a Harmon Kardon AVR 300 receiver using an optical cable.

I've been having digital audio issues with WHIO for a long time, but I'm OTA, using the optical output. What I get--usually several times a night--is very rythmic audio dropouts, every couple seconds, lasting for only a split second--just enough to clip a word of dialogue. It usually happens when they switch to or from the network feed. I have to either turn the box off and back on, or switch the channel and come back to correct the problem. WHIO is the only station that does this to my receiver.

977 sounds like a cincitucky TWC channel number. I think it would be 777 for us Dayton viewers. I'll check the ol diag mode tonight.

TW-WOH has added numbers up in that range in the past few months. HD-PPV is ch 1001, I believe, and all of the non-premium OnDemand channels are duplicated in the 1200 range. I do think they're trying to match up with TW-Cincy's channel layout.

Nothing on ch 977, in diag mode, shows up for me. I checked most of the skipped channel numbers in the high-700 range also and found nothing. There is a card game on ch 801, I believe. :)

I believe the card game is on channel 800. I found that a few weeks ago, the black jack game is actually kind of addicting. :)

I added 726 WB in HD through the Diag mode. It now comes up without being in Diag mode. It still doesn't show on the guide mode but I'm not complaining.

I just need NBC now and I'll be a happy camper.

I had messed with one OTA antenna to get NBC HD but it's not a priority. We use the DVR so much we rarely watch tv at the time it's on and if we do, we are pausing it constantly to carry on with life around the house.

You'll lose WDBT eventually. I'm not sure what triggers it to be dropped even once you're out of 'diag' mode.

We're the same way about using the DVR. If I were to buy an OTA set-top just for NBC, that means we'd have to watch shows when they're normally on, with commercials. Ugghhh !! :D And yes, I'm aware of the $500+ OTA-DVR available from Sony...

Is WBDT currently broadcasting OTA on 26-1? I moved recently and the channel showed up but I haven't been able to tune it in for the last couple of weeks.

bearcatscott,

Haven't noticed any problems with WBDT-DT here, including currently(4:20pm - I don't know about 2pm/etc, but I haven't caught them off air recently, if ever for that matter). They broadcast on RF channel 18, and remap via PSIP to virtual channel 26-1 on all my receivers here.

I did notice the other night WBDT-DT had HD for "One Tree Hill", WSTR-DT was sending SD, which is a bit unusual as both stations are usually very good about passing through HD from WB.

Thanks for the reply Jeff. I will try again when I get home tonight.

Are there any more secret channels out there? I was happy and upset when i read the post about wb in hd. Why is it hidden? Was the card channel always there or was it hidden to. I always wonder how people find this stuff.

You have to be in 'diag' mode for WB to show up. Contractually, it shouldn't be there as TW-WOH and WBDT do not have an agreement for TW to carry their DT station. Same as WDTN, though you only get the banner information with it (you used to get audio). Why do they show up ?? Only TWC's engineering can answer that, but I'd guess it's so that once an agreement is made, they simply "flip a switch" and it's on.

It's hidden because it's not supposed to be there. If a WBDT person looks in the program guide, it doesn't show up, therefore TWC isn't broadcasting it (as far as the average person is concerned).

To find other "hidden" channels, first thing is obviously you have to be in 'diag' mode. Second, you have to be bored.... Why ?? 'cause you just have to start punching in "7-2-6" or "8-0-0" and so on to find them. I found TW's HD-OnDemand about two months before it showed up in the guide this way.

Has anyone had a recording on a HD8300 PVR where the only audio you get is the laugh track? Very strange, like the channel separation for the sound only recorded part of the signal. We could hear the voices "way" in the background.

Kinda like I hear the voices way in the background of my head.....

Has anyone had a recording on a HD8300 PVR where the only audio you get is the laugh track? Very strange, like the channel separation for the sound only recorded part of the signal. We could hear the voices "way" in the background.

Kinda like I hear the voices way in the background of my head.....

I have the 8300 - never had this take place.

That sounds like a glitch in the Dolby Digital 5.1 processing. What show was it ?? See if others had it also and if so, it is probably a station problem. I think all of us have seen it from more than one of the stations around here though they've fixed it. I can recall a couple episodes of Desperate Housewives and Everybody Loves Raymond that had no main dialouge, i.e. center-channel, but you got the other channels.

There was a show on WHIO sometime in the past week (don't recall which one) where the center-channel dialogue was missing. They corrected it after several minutes. As Hall points out, this does happen occasionally and it's probably the station that's causing it.

Is anyone using a cable card in a new Sony A10? Either the 42 inch or the 50 inch. I have had Time Warner out twice and tried 2 cards without success. I am not getting the same story from anyone who shows up. The last guy today said that he has not seen any of the new A10 Sony TV's work with a cable card. He said it is a problem between the TV and the Card, and that it really is a problem with Scientific Atlanta's cards.

What gives? I really wanted to use this option.

Is anyone using a cable card in a new Sony A10? Either the 42 inch or the 50 inch.

Sorry, I don't have the new one, but I am using the CC with my 42WE655, which is essentially last year's model of the same set. Many of us have had the same experience with TWC on this issue. Can you give more information about the kind of problem you're having? How far along in the install have you been able to get? Does the TV recognize that there's a CC? Has the installer been able to find the CC# and Host ID? Has TWC tried to send a hit to the card? What package are you trying to get (e.g., 2-78 + HD Tier, lifeline only + HD Tier, etc.)?

Phil

TW has been out three times so far to try to get the CC working in my set. Three cards have been tried. I am not receiving any of the digital channels except channel 125 and the unscrambled local HD stations; 707, 745,722. I can see the channel information, but it ends up saying that it is not authorized.

The cards have been reset many times, hit many times, and the codes or pairing checked many times. I have good signal strength, verified at least 3 times.

I have received a different explanation from each TW tech that has crossed my door. One guy has seen the exact same thing at someone elses house and a new card fixed the problem. One tech tried, failed and then said that NONE of the models of my TV work with a CC; that it is a problem between the tv and the CC itself.

I called Sony and they set up a service call for last Monday evening (yesterday) and no one showed up or called. I called and rescheduled the service visit for this Thursday evening. Not sure what they will be doing...

I have the new Sony KDF42A10 LCD, the 8300HD PVR (which works fine). Is anyone having better luck than this?

Anybody know where in Beavercreek/Dayton I can buy a Silver Sensor? I've checked Best Buy, Circuity City, HH Gregg, WalMart, Radio Shack, etc. with no luck.

If it doesn't work out, I'd like to be able to return it to a store rather than having to deal with shipping it back to some online retailer.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions!!

Larry,

I picked mine up at the Sears at the Fairfield Commons Mall about a year ago. I am not sure if they still stock them. You may want to give them a call.

Good luck.

Circuity City's website has a TERK version -- not sure if it's technically the same -- of the Silver Sensor and shows it in stock at their Dayton Mall store.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Terk-Indoor-HDTV-Antenna-HDTVi-/sem/rpsm/oid/91092/catOid/-15607/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

Radio Shack has the same Terk antenna and it says their N Dixie store or their Sugarcreek store has it in stock.

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2110925&cp=&pg=6&kw=antenna&parentPage=search

Parts Express (part of Mendelson's downtown or a standalone store in Springboro) has both the non-amplified and amplified versions. Both say "Yes" to being in stock (I'd call to see which location has them).

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=210-230
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=210-232

I picked mine up at the Sears at the Fairfield Commons Mall about a year ago.
Thanks for the idea - I hadn't thought of Sears. An initial check of their website didn't look too promising, but I suppose a trip to the store couldn't hurt.

It's almost like this thing is discontinued though - Amazon, Buy.com, and Overstock are all out of it as well.

Circuity City's website has a TERK versionThat was gonna be my next question, if the Terk HDTVi is the same thing and if it was any good. Thanks for the replies! I'll post my experience with the Terk, since that seems to be the one I'll have to try.

Larry,

I believe there is a big difference between the Terk and the Silver Sensor. Apparently, the Terk is not nearly as good. Please see the below thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=502767&highlight=silver+sensor+terk

If I recall corectly, the SS was release by Zenith and Philips, but they were both the same antenna.

To be honest, they look exactly alike so I figured Zenith just allowed others to OEM it or something. I've no idea if they're alike in looks only or if the Terk sucks.

I've read good things about a Radio Shack indoor antenna but I have no personal experience. I think it's this one: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103917&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&pg=2&parentPage=family

How far from the towers are you ??

Silver Sensor is a UHF only log-peridoic(LP) antenna. Terk HDTVi appears to use the same, or nearly the same LP design for its UHF section, but also adds VHF capability with the addition of rabbit ears. In general, Log perodic design for antennas is such that it offers excellent directivity, and very "even" gain and directivity across all the frequencies it's designed for -- In this case, UHF TV channels 14~69(470~806MHZ).

I have never tried either, but just from folks comments on it, I'm not really seeing any definitive evidence that the UHF performance of Terk HDTVi is any different from the SS. Just looking at it, one wouldn't think it should be any different - except perhaps involving insertion loss or impedance mismatch issues, or isolation between VHF/UHF due to whatever sort of VHF/UHF joiner (or balun for the VHF section) the Terk uses to combine its VHF+UHF sections. Now, at one time I'd also thought I'd seen there was a "amplified" verison of the Terk HDTVi -- If so, that's probably something to steer away from for such indoor antennas for various reasons.

In any case, all the dayton digital stations transmit on UHF, so, for reception of the Dayton digital stations, the VHF section of TerkHDTVi would not be necessary. You might want the VHF rabbit ears if you want to receive analog channel 2 or 7, or if you have any luck getting any sort of signal from the Cincinnati analog or digital VHF stations(One of those digitals - WCPO-DT does transmit on VHF channel 10).

Another good choice for an indoor UHF antenna would be the Radio Shack "double-bow tie"(DBT), it is about $15, and they are now calling it the ridiculous name "Dual HDTV antenna". Here is a the link :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058&cp=&kw=hdtv+antenna&parentPage=search

Unless it's changed, the DBT is 300 Ohm impedance at it's terminals and comes with a few feet of 300Ohm twinlead, so you'll need a 300ohm~75 Ohm matching transformer(balun) for impedance matching for matching the balanced 300ohm "load"(ok, so there isn't a load since you aren't transmitting with it but you get the idea) of the antenna to the 75Ohm unbalanced coax+75Ohm impedance your tuner uses. Usually best to put the balun as close to the antenna terminals as possible, if you don't have one lying around, you can get one of those "matching transformers" from RS for a few bucks as well.

Amazon appears to have it, under the Philips name, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00007HULD/ref=pd_ts_c_th_1/002-9768498-6731256?n=1060538&s=electronics&v=glance.

According to AntennaWeb, I'm 19 miles from the towers, which doesn't seem too bad to me. I live on 5 acres with not much else around in a mostly rural area just east of Xenia, so there shouldn't be that much interference around.

I've read bad and good things about both the Zenith and the Terk, which leads me to believe that the results you get really depend on your surroundings, which is why I was hoping to buy locally. If it doesn't work out, then I'll go with a different model or an outdoor antenna. Thanks for the tips on the Radio Shack antennas - I'll have to add those to my list as well :cool:

Nitewatchman - there is indeed an amplified version of the Terk, called the HDTVa (Best Buy carries it), but like you said, I'd prefer to stay away from that one. You're also correct in that I'm only interested in UHF.

Thanks again for the replies everyone - I'll probably end up buying 4 or 5 of these things and then trying them one after another.

Question for TWC 8300 HD DVR users: from earlier posts on this thread, it appears that the 8300s the Dayton region use the Passport software, as opposed to SARA. Did I read that correctly?

I'm considering the switch from a SD TiVo to an 8300 (preparing for the all-important stage of presenting the idea to my TiVo-addict wife), and I've been brushing up on the device from all the related threads on this site. It seems like the consensus is that while people miss some of their TiVo features, the 8300 is a perfectly viable option. If anyone here disagrees with that, please warn me off now!

Phil

I have 2 8300's and have had no major problems with the passport software. The audio sometimes needs to get kicked (reinitialize the Dolby Digital functionality), but outside of that I haven't seen anything that would turn me away from it. My wife also has no complaints about it.

TW's boxes here do use Passport. I've never had a TiVo, though I did have a Dish DVR prior to getting my TW one. Of course, Dish's DVR is no TiVo either....

What features of the TiVo does she really use ?? The 8300 can do "series recording", i.e. it will record all episodes of show "A", on channel "B" only, at time "C" only. Or, it can record ALL episodes of a show, from any channel, at any time. It can't record all shows that Sean Connery is in, for example, or suggest shows about dogs, like the TiVo. It's easy to say I wouldn't use those features since I can't try them currently, but honestly, I really, really don't think I'd use them.

As a early TiVo adopter and current user, I would recommend getting the 8300HD and keeping the TiVo around. This will allow you to record some SD stuff on another TV if you want.

Get the 8300HD and patiently wait for the second half of this year for the TiVo Series 3. The Series 3 is a Dual tuner HD-DVR with two cable card slots and OTA input as well. I haven't heard if it will have all of the cool home network features that the Series 2 does, but I would be surprised if they don't.

What features of the TiVo does she really use ??

I think we'll miss the TiVo suggestions. We always check them out when we don't have any more scheduled recordings to watch, and there's always something worthwhile. And the advanced search capabilities of the TiVo are really nice, especially the ability to put wishlist searches in the recording schedule. For example, right now, my TiVo automatically picks up anything that is related to the Cleveland Browns, U2, or Estes Park. (I don't have to periodically run a search for those things and then manually choose the programs.) But the biggest thing we'll miss is the ability to schedule shows remotely. I can log in to any web browser and tell my TiVo to record a show up to an hour before its start time. That's saved our bacon several times. I'm willing to give those up for what we'll gain with the 8300, though (HD and 2 tuners). And I suspect that the software will continue to gain new features as time passes.

Thanks for the info,
Phil

Get the 8300HD and patiently wait for the second half of this year for the TiVo Series 3.

I've considered waiting for the Series 3, but I'm not enthusiastic about buying another piece of TiVo hardware (which I'm sure will be $$$ at first) and purchasing another lifetime subscription. Also, I've had just about all the CableCard I can stand.

I reserve the right to envy your Series 3 when the time comes, though.

Phil

keep in mind that the series 3 is supposed to be cable card 2.0 - which is supposed to be better - a lot better..

lol// kinda sounds like "deregulation" which would lower all utility bills :)

I've considered waiting for the Series 3, but I'm not enthusiastic about buying another piece of TiVo hardware (which I'm sure will be $$$ at first) and purchasing another lifetime subscription.

If you already have a lifetime subscription on your Series 2, then why are you considering a "switch"? Consider this as an "addition." Get the 8300HD to record digital and HD programming and keep your TiVo for your favorite TiVo features you can't live without.


Also, when you're ready to get a Series 3, don't forget about the multi-service discount TiVo offers. If you have two TiVos in the same home the second TiVo will run you $6.95 a month (and a one year commitment). It would would take you more than 3.5 years (@ ~$84 a year) to make money by buying lifetime right away. I'm not saying, "don't get lifetime service" because I have it too and would highly consider it as a later upgrade. I've had my TiVo since December of 1999. So, I've saved myself loads of money with the lifetime subscription.

Looks like UniversalHD will be here before the olympics. I turned on diagnostic mode on one of my 8300HDs, and under channel 977 UniversalHD's program info comes through. No sound or video yet, however. I'll extremely happy they are getting this done, even if only for the olympics (although I wish they'd get it on full time). Now they just need to get WDTN-DT on the air in time for the olympics.

Mick

Well I bought a Terk from CC yesterday, and I'm blown away by how good this thing works. This just reinforces my opinion that an antenna is only as good as your location :)

With the antenna just sitting next to my TV, I was able to get multiple Dayton and Cincinnati stations in crystal clear, with a signal strength hovering around 90 for most stations. CSI has never looked so good! I'm excited to see what this thing can do if I put it in my attic.

All in all, some of the best $40 I've ever spent. It's certainly better than paying E* a king's ransom and then not even getting locals in HD.

Looks like UniversalHD will be here before the olympics. Apparently, there's something in our bills about TW carrying UHD for the Olympics but I missed it.... Anyway, here's what I was told by another contact at TW-WOH:
It's true, we will carry Universal HD during the Olympics. Universal HD will be on channel 977. The Olympics begin on February 10 and will run through Feb 26. Keep in mind that this is a temporary channel and will only carry coverage of the Olympics. Universal HD will be free to our HD customers.

The Olympics will be on NBC's broadcast channel, but as you know we do not carry NBC HD in Dayton at this time.

Hall, can you ask them why some Time Warner territories are getting UHD fulltime while Dayton is only getting it for the Olympics? I saw that down in the research triangle in NC (Raleigh area) that they got it Feb 1st for good.

Anyone checked to see what RF slot Universal HD will be in?

I'll scan around with the Fusion card and see if I can find it.

Larry, how many miles are you listed from the Cincinnati towers?

Larry, how many miles are you listed from the Cincinnati towers?On average, about 50 miles. For example, NBC-5 comes in really well, and according to antennaweb I'm 51.4 miles away from that tower.

I'm fortunate in that my TV is on the southwest end of my house, so the antenna only has pick up signal through that 1 wall.

On average, about 50 miles. For example, NBC-5 comes in really well, and according to antennaweb I'm 51.4 miles away from that tower.

I'm fortunate in that my TV is on the southwest end of my house, so the antenna only has pick up signal through that 1 wall.

I'm still impressed that you can pick it up that well. It gives me hope that in Kettering I'll be able to pick up a few of the OTA Cincinnati stations.

Yeah, me too. :D As long as there isn't too much interference around, you should be able to get them just fine in Kettering.

See attachment for a shot I took of my Cincinnati NBC reception. Apparently they don't do HD programming during the day, but you can still get an idea of how clear it comes in.

Anyone checked to see what RF slot Universal HD will be in?
I'll scan around with the Fusion card and see if I can find it. For the time being, the channel shows up as "Clear to air", just like WHIO-DT, WKEF-DT, etc.

I wonder if WHIO has something up their sleeve. There is a blank 7-2 showing up now.

I wonder if WHIO has something up their sleeve. There is a blank 7-2 showing up now.

might be testing out the multicasting for the NCAA tourney

On average, about 50 miles. For example, NBC-5 comes in really well, and according to antennaweb I'm 51.4 miles away from that tower.

I'm fortunate in that my TV is on the southwest end of my house, so the antenna only has pick up signal through that 1 wall.

Concerning your other posts about "location", I think in this area "terrain shielding" issues are probably the most significant factor for some folks. I think that's generally less of a problem for much of the Dayton area, except for some "hilly" locations - most of which aren't severe enough in Dayton area to be a problem for reception of Dayton area stations, probably because most of the "hilly" portions of Dayton area are generally very near the towers, anyway, where the signal can "see" over those hills. The issue is more significant in portions of the Cincinnati area. I've looked at terrain profiles with "topo" software for receiving locations only 4~5 miles away from Cincinnati towers that were blocked by terrain(being at the "bottom" and the wrong side of a, steep, 400FT high hill for instance).

Anyway, with use of adding a little extra feedline, You might also want to try putting the antenna near an east facing window(or wall - windows are usually a better choice, as there should be less signal attenuation, although some insulated glass can be a multipath "factor) as well to see what you can pull in from Columbus.

Oh, I'm sure you know this, but Keep in mind, WLWT-DT Cincinnati(nbc) Transmits on UHF channel 35, it remaps to virtual channel 5.1(and 5.2). The channels the digital stations actually transmit on are shown for your results in the "frequency assignment" column(far right column) at www.antennaweb.org

WCET-DT 34(PBS HD) - remaps to 48.x and transmits off same tower as WLWT, and does have PBS HD channel up "all the time". Much of that is Widescreen SD programming "upconverted" to 1080i for broadcast, but at least it's 16x9. They do go off air about 3 or 4 nights a week in the "wee morning" hours, however. WPTD-DT 58 (remaps to 16.x) Dayton also has PBS HD channel nightly from 6pm~6am.

If you're getting WLWT-DT, you should probably be able to pull in WCET-DT as well, although it would probably be about 6db~7db less signal. WLWT-DT is sending 1000KW ERP, WCET-DT is sending 215KW ERP currently -- each 1/2 decrease in power is about a -3.5db difference - same as adding a 2 way splitter in your feedline line.

WKRC-DT and WLWT-DT are probably the strongest digital TV signals out of Cincinnati, but the rest aren't or shouldn't be too far behind.

Another potential issue for your location involving several Cincinnati or columbus stations is the likelyhood of co-channel interference issues being a factor for you. As, The following Cincinnati+Columbus area stations transmit on the SAME channels :

WCET-DT 34 Cincy/WOSU 34 Columbus
WPTO-DT 28(currently transmitting from WXIX tower in Cincinnati)/WTTE 28 Columbus.
WCPO-DT 10 Cincy/WBNS 10 Columbus
WCMH-DT 14 Columbus/WPTO 14 Oxford
WOSU-DT 38 Columbus/WBQC-CA 38 Cincinnati.
WTTE-DT 36 Columbus/W36DG 36 Cincinnati(TBN low power translator)

W36DG and WBQC-CA should be less of an issue, as they are low power stations -- especially W36DG, as WBQC-CA isn't THAT Low power at 150KW ERP and from a nice high transmitting antenna on WCPO's tower.

I wonder if WHIO has something up their sleeve. There is a blank 7-2 showing up now.

They have brought back "7-2" on occasion before, for example to multicast the Roberts confirmation hearings. Hopefully it's just a test as browerjs suggested.

Without any info from a tool such as T-S reader or accurate info from their engineers, we don't know what the "bitrate" is they're using for 7-1 other than by looking at the screen and "guessing" about it. For instance, they could at any time decide to use a portion of their "non-oppurtunistic" available bandwidth for "testing" or for datacasting/etc, they could even send a SD subchannel that requires "conditional access"(i.e. subscriber fee+special receiver, or I suppose they could even send a SD subchannel to Cableco headends with a special "receiver" used at the cableco head end without most of us knowing about it with our equipment). They do have to file a report with FCC yearly concerning any supplemental or ancillary services they utilize a portion of their bandwidth for, and they have to pay a 5% tax on any revenue generated by those services. I've checked these reports(they're available on FCC site) from the stations in our area which have sent them in the past couple of years, and so far WHIO hasn't reported doing anything like that.

I might have been just seeing things, or it might have been a "backhaul" issue for CBS/etc, but the last(maybe the last 2 games) NFL HD games on WHIO-DT, I seemed to see what looked like more MPEG2 compression artifacts than has been the case from them since they dropped the 7-2 simulcast of analog last spring ... Looked like they were back at 15~16Mb/s, but again it's hard to say.

I guess the main point I'm trying to get at is -- I think it's best not to assume anything about this sort of thing -- I do think it is a good idea to keep a very close "eye" on the PQ the stations are sending, and if you are so inclined report what you see to the station ...

Notice WKEF-DT is now dropping from HD to SD to insert weather alert messages for tonite's Harry Potter movie. Haven't seen them do that before. Didn't check long enough to see if they're switching to HD feed when they're not putting the weather message up. It's HD from WCPO-DT Cincinnati.

While I can understand that as very few stations have the capability to insert local "HD" graphics, wWhat's really bad however is the way quite a few stations these days these are altering aspect ratio for the programming when "squeezing in" the weather messages/tickers/etc. at bottom of screen. I just don't see how anyone can stand that.

hello ,all i was wondering as to why channel 22 HD only shows a 4x3 view on my tv and channel 7-1 HD shows a full 16x9 view witch covers my whole screen on a 4805 infocus
wondering if any way to fix this id like to watch the superbowl on my pj with the full screen
im using a samsung sir T451 for tuner with it set at 16x9.hope theres a way any help would be greatfull.

freekman,

LOL ..... see my message immediately above yours ... The problem is not with your set, WKEF-DT is probably sending SD upconvert/4x3(and even altering its aspect ratio tonight) because of the weather message at bottom of screen.

Most stations have to drop to the SD feed in order to insert such local weather messages as they don't have the equipment to insert local "HD" graphics. It's a technical+equipment(and $) issue for the station, probably as well as an issue for the station involving a station meeting its public service obligations(providing local news+weather information/etc). It's just that it is not something we've seen much from the Dayton digital/HD stations so far -- Cincinnati is another story.

I'd think chances are good they probably won't do this during HD Superbowl tomorrow(at least I hope not), if they do, they'll probably get quite a few calls ...

Update: Or, another possibility might be they have simply have "missed" the switch to ABC HD feed tonight for HD Harry Potter movie(which again is HD via WCPO-DT, ABC HD Cincinnati, at least currently ....) .. or other "technical issues" may be another possibility, if so lets hope they get it straightened out before tomorrow afternoon ...

LOL,right after i wrote that i seen yours oh well i hope they get it right tomorrow cant pickup cincinnati feeds only using inside antenna right now need to install a outside one soon with rotator that should be nice from top off my house two storys should get pretty good signals from fairborn.

I sent a message to WDTN last week concerning the availability of Time Warner providing High Def content. Here is my email and their response. Does anyone have more information concerning channel 50? Other than that he did not provide any new information that we already knew.

Dave



"When will WDTN and Time Warner come to an agreement to allow TW to broadcast WDTN’s HDTV signal? With the Olympics coming up quickly, it becomes even more of a sore subject for those of us that do not use an over-the-air (OTA) antenna. I would like to be able to view your content on my HDTV, but as it is WDTN has the worse picture quality of any station in the Miami Valley viewing area."


"Mr. Johnson,

I don’t know a date for an agreement to retransmit WDTN-DT’s HD broadcasts on Time Warner. The negotiations are ongoing between the two parties.

Channel 2 broadcast all NBC HD programming on WDTN-DT channel 50. WDTN-DT began digital broadcast on January 15th, 2003.

WDTN-DT Channel 50 is a discrete signal and is not effected by the interference that Channel 2 experiences.

Thank you for your enquiry and interest,

Jim Atkinson"

I sent a message to WDTN last week concerning the availability of Time Warner providing High Def content. Here is my email and their response. Does anyone have more information concerning channel 50?

WDTN-DT broadcasts on channel 50 which is remapped to 2-1 via PSIP. They were lucky enough to get a decent channel assignment that improves their OTA broadcast.

In West Michigan WWMT-DT and WWMT broadcast on 2 & 3 respectively. So their new channel assignment is actually worse.

So, pretty much he told you to get an ATSC tuner and you will get their new and improved picture.

Jim Atkinson is the head engineer at WDTN, as I recall. I've e-mailed him in the past too. He really has nothing to do with TW and WDTN coming to an agreement. I'm guessing whoever routes e-mails at their stations send everything regarding "HD" to him.

From the e-mail conversations I've had with a manager at TW, they appear to have little hope that they'll carry WDTN anytime soon. If they give in to WDTN and pay $$$, what will WHIO, WKEF, WRGT expect then ?? I think TW is not going to set a precedent.

If you want to watch the Olympics, go to channel 977 on TW. As I posted a few days ago, TW will be providing Universal HD free to HD customers for the duration of the Olympics.

Thought both ABC and WKEF-DT did a great job with the HD(and DD 5.1) Superbowl coverage, yesterday. At one point after the game there was a HD commercial up from ABC HD feed on WKEF-DT - I switched to WCPO-DT Cincinnati and the commercial was SD. Unless perhaps there were also local commercials during that break(and there may have been, I stepped out of the room at the time) Don't know why they would be switching to the ABC SD feed, since ABC upconverts SD programming at network level(at least during prime time)+sends it out over the HD feed.

Am looking forward to watching NBC HD Winter Olympics coverage from WDTN-DT and/or WLWT-DT. Going to be interesting to see what the HD PQ is like this time. Hopefully, the HD PQ will be comparable to NBC/HDnet's HD coverage of 2002 Winter Olympics from SLC. As I understand it, some of the coverage on NBC HD feed will be Widescreen SD, as some venues won't be equipped with HD cameras/etc.

I thought 2004 Summer Olympics HD PQ from NBC was a bit disappointing(as was HD Nascar last year from NBC and WDTN-DT or WLWT-DT for the same reason) - especially when it came to "digital looking" artifacts during bandwidth demanding portions of programming, including from WDTN-DT for the few hours they had the HD Closing ceremonies. I'm not sure however this was entirely due to the multicasting these affiliates are doing, as WLWT-DT wasn't multicasting at the time of the 2004 Olympics, and the problem was showing up there as well.

As I recall WDTN affiliate switch from ABC to NBC occured the day of, or the day after they 2004 Summer Olympics Closing ceremonies - I think it was the day after but the way NBC was doing it, some of the last block of 8 hour replay ended up airing on WDTN-DT.

For those that don't know, Not saying it's been "perfect"(no station in the area has been) but WDTN-DT has pretty much allways had their act together when it comes to DTV and HD. I just wish they'd drop the SD subchannel/digital SD simulcast of analog and allocate more bits to HD when it needs it. WBDT-DT also has had their "HD act" together, for as long as they've been doing it.

Thought both ABC and WKEF-DT did a great job with the HD(and DD 5.1) Superbowl coverage, yesterday. I honestly thought the picture quality looked a notch better than usual throughout the football season myself.

Did anyone notice the use of non-HD cameras ? I sure didn't, but I didn't watch the entire game. I even noticed that the camera that's suspended on a wire above the field (the one that raises and lowers) even was HD. Of course, I'm only going by the "sticker" (logo) that was on it ! :D

Yes, excellent job from WKEF and ABC on the Superbowl. The pq seemed noticeably better than what I remember seeing for their other games. I didn't notice any non-hd cameras being used, nor should there have been for a production that large. The sound crew didn't really seem to have their act together during the half-time show.

UniversalHD is up on 977. Just in time.

UHD is "in the clear" on 91-2 on my Fusion HD card (although I had to do some registry finagling with the PID's to get it to work).

Are you seeing UHD without being in 'diag' mode ?? I don't recall seeing it last night on my 8300HD and I'm 100% positive it wasn't showing up on my 8000 (SD). I looked for it on that one.

Same here, Hall. I checked it out last night at approximately 9:30PM and it wasn't on unless I was in diag mode.

I always leave my box on in diagnostics mode -- so yes, it probably was. It was the fist time I had seen anything other than a grey screen on 977.

Do you turn your box "off" (so the only light on the front-panel is the clock) ?? If I do, it obviously kicks out of 'diag' mode.

I decided to check out Knight Rider on UHD tonight... not too bad (and I haven't seen that show in years as it was). Kitt even did some bull fighting in it :). Anyway, the network is coming through loud and clear in Diag mode. I just wish they would put NBC up in diag mode for the olympics.

UHD is "in the clear" on 91-2 on my Fusion HD card (although I had to do some registry finagling with the PID's to get it to work).In case anybody is trying to find it on a QAM capable TV, you might try 91-1. That's where it's showing up on both of my sets.

Is anyone else not getting WHIO-DT ota (CBS channel 7.1)? The station seems to tune in just fine and the signal strength is there, but there's no audio or video. I'm still getting every other channel without any problems....

Does anyone else have audio/video sync problems w/ them? All my other digital OTA channels sync perfectly, but this channel is always off to varying degrees. Thanks.

Does anyone else have audio/video sync problems w/ them? All my other digital OTA channels sync perfectly, but this channel is always off to varying degrees. Thanks.

I think i've noticed it before as well. This could be the same problem WCPO-DT was having when they tried to use their 5.1 encoder on their old HDTV encoder. They have completed installation of their new HDTV encoder and are currently working on testing the 5.1 encoder with it.

Does anyone else have audio/video sync problems w/ them? All my other digital OTA channels sync perfectly, but this channel is always off to varying degrees. Thanks.

Desperate Housewives (the only show i watch on ABC) has this problem regularly for me.

Is anyone else not getting WHIO-DT ota (CBS channel 7.1)? The station seems to tune in just fine and the signal strength is there, but there's no audio or video. I'm still getting every other channel without any problems....

No problems here with WHIO-DT at 3:40pm today.

If it still isn't working, you might be experiencing a PSIP related issue involving any changes they may have made in their PSIP tables or PID's recently. As Paul mentioned, They did "add" a 7.2 subchannel recently - there are no decodable audio/video streams on 7.2 currently, however that I can see.

One possibility might involve WHIO changing something with either their PSIP info or MPEG2 PID(packet identifier) for the program streams If your receiver only "updates" it's internal VCT (virtual channel table) information for the local stations when you run an "autoscan".

Some receivers update this info every time you "tune" to a station, others only do it on "autoscans", or will also do it when you "add" or "scan in" an individual channel(in which case you have to use the "actual" RF channel the station is transmitting on if your receiver lets you do this - in this case channel "41"), and some sat+OTA receivers rely on EPG from the sat's for the channel remapping info, rather than station's PSIP, and Some receivers will also allow you to manually, tune directly to the "actual" RF channel/MPEG program Stream number in this case 41.1.

Of course, another possibility we've seen on occasions have involved stations PSIP tables or PID not being "100%" configured correctly -- In some cases when this occurs, some receiver models can have problems which can't be "fixed" by auto-channel scans, or tuning directly to the actual "RF" channel(especially those which rely "heavily" on PSIP), while other receivers don't have problems.

Huh. I tried rescanning my channels and that didn't work. I also did a factory reset on the TV and that didn't do it either. On another strange note, all of a sudden I started picking up Cincinnati's CBS yesterday after I did all the rescanning and resetting. That was one station I couldn't get a blip on before as far as signal strength before, and now it's coming in loud and clear.

I tried calling WHIO but could only leave a message with the engineering department, so I don't know if they've done any upgrades or changes. As you said, it's gotta be something that only affects certain types of receivers. Either that or the one in my TV is just no good, because this doesn't seem to be a widespread issue.

Thanks for your reply. Guess I'll just have to wait and see.

I tried calling WHIO but could only leave a message with the engineering department, so I don't know if they've done any upgrades or changes. As you said, it's gotta be something that only affects certain types of receivers. Either that or the one in my TV is just no good, because this doesn't seem to be a widespread issue.



That is exactly the thing to do in this circumstance ... Call the station, and the more folks that experience the issue who call them, the more likely they are to get it fixed more quickly.

Sometimes the stations monitor their off air signals with receivers that aren't effected, or sometimes they monitor the off air signals with receivers that are effected, but they don't know there's a problem until they "switch the channel" to another station and then back to their station, or do a channel rescan. Hopefully, stations are beginning to purchase better equipment to allow them to properly monitior there PSIP stream, and hopefully that equipment is more "available" now than I'd heard was the case in the past(aside from TS-reader+a PC based tuner card).

I'm sure your receiver is not the only receiver that is(was) effected. In the unlikely event your receiver is "at fault". Still, contacting the station is the way to go, to help them understand what sort of receiver model specific issues can occur. Contacting the manufacturer is of course another option you might have.

Anyhow, you might want to try the rescan again when you get home tonight. I noticed they have changed their PSIP either this morning or late last night, as the "blank" 7-2 subchannel they added several days
~a week or so ago is now gone.

Anyhow, you might want to try the rescan again when you get home tonight. I noticed they have changed their PSIP either this morning or late last night, as the "blank" 7-2 subchannel they added several days
~a week or so ago is now gone.Apparently you are correct, as it's now coming in for me again. I didn't even have to rescan - my TV just picked it right up. Curious though that I can't get the Cincinnati CBS again now. I don't know if it's the weather or what, but it's just kind of a weird circumstance. Thanks again for your suggestions!

I live in Xenia can somone help me out with a good antenna to get HD ota - I live on the SW side of town.

Thanks,
Josh

If you look back only a page or two, you'll see posts from "larrysano" who also lives in Xenia. Not sure what part of Xenia but you being in the SW part, that puts you in the closest part of Xenia to the Dayton tv towers. I believe he ended up with a Terk indoor antenna and is getting excellent results with it.

I was thinking of gettting an Outdoor directional antenna - assuming that most the dayton stations are in one direction from me I will not need a rotor. Anyone using one? I have seen them range frm $40-$70, then add the cable & mounting. I'm real new to it. But have experince with UHF & VHF equipment in the world of radios.

Here is the one I'm looking at:

80" Boom Length, 32-Element Antenna

$59.99
Model: VU-90 XR
Catalog #: 15-2152

Jd Long,

1st, welcome to AVSforum.

In short, VU-90 would probably be a good choice for Reception of Dayton stations(you might even pick up Cincy, although a little different antenna aiming might be a good idea, might pick up columbus as well, and you'd definitely need different antenna aiming for that), and also a good choice for a inexpensive, "one size fits" all antenna for analog TV, digital TV and FM broadcast band reception.

In more detail however -- The VU90 is a small~medium sized(also "medium" gain and directivity as outdoor VHF/UHF antennas go) broadband VHF/UHF combo antenna -- If you're just interested in the Dayton Digital stations, they all broadcast on UHF(470-806 MHZ) In which case, you wouldn't need the larger VHF section of the antenna, and UHF only antenna such as RS U-75R, or CM4221 might be a good choice.

Also, At this point in the FCC's channel election procedure the Dayton stations have elected to all stay on UHF after analog shut off, and their choices have been "approved" by FCC and made it to FCC's "tentativie channel designation" list. That could change, but it's very unlikely. What could be more likely however in the future, is that there is of course the possibility "new" stations, or LP DTV or translator stations may someday pop up in the area after analog shut off on any "open" VHF channels.

Now, Cincinnati does have a digital VHF station on 10 and will likely have 2 of them after analog shut off - the other one being on channel 12, again, approved by FCC channel election choices), and Columbus has a VHF digital station transmitting on Channel 13.

Also, we don't have any Lo-VHF TV band(54~88MHZ) digital stations in this area, the Columbus, Cincinnati and Lima VHF digitals are all on Hi-VHF ch 7-13(174~216MHZ). At this point, it also looks likely that will be the case after analog shut off as well.

The reason all of this is of interest, perhaps, is that The longest "elements" of VHF combo antennas(the "biggest" part of the antenna) are for Lo-VHF(such as for WDTN 2 analog) and FM reception, where on channel 2(54~60MHZ), a 1/2 wave dipole is about 8~9FT long. And, There are also good "hi-VHF only" TV band(ch 7-13 - starts not far above 2 Meter Ham band, so think 'similar' to a relatively small 6 or 10 element 2 Meter Yagi) antennas out there, such as Winegard YA-6713, which is much smaller than a antenna also designed for channel 2-6(and/or FM reception) and also offers better performance on Ch 7-13 -- but, there are no available combo Hi-VHF/UHF antennas I know of, currently. You can use VHF/UHF joiner such as CM#0549 to combine seperate VHF/UHF antennas onto same feedline, or seperate VHF/UHF inputs available on some mast mount preamps(such as CM#7777).

Finally, If you go to www.antennaweb.org and punch in your address -- In your results, the far right column "frequency assignment" shows the actual channels the stations are broadcasting on. Digital stations send something called "PSIP", which allows your receiver to "remap" the digital stations' channels to virtual channels which appear to be "next to" the analog station - such as 7.1 for WHIO-DT (digital), and 7(174~180MHZ) for WHIO analog - even though WHIO-DT actually transmits on UHF channel 41(632~638 MHZ).

More detailed info on the stations can be found in FCC's TV query (be sure to choose "detailed info+cdbs links for the most detailed info), which is here :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

You might also want to check out other antenna+reception related threads on AVSforum, The OTA FAQ in hardware area here might be a good place to start :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957

73's.

Thanks for the great information - I'm only interested in the Digital(HD) channels so I will keep that in mind. Im not affriad of antennas on my property like some who hide them understandling in their attics. But all my 2 meter yagi, 6 meter die pole, 2 meter j-pole and scanner antennas are all proudly mounted on my property with the directv sat.

I do not have any tower space so I will have to mount the TV antenna propably to my exhaust pipe or chimney. I wonder what effect if any keying up on my 2m & 70cm equipment might have on my tv - since the antennas will be only about 20-30 feet from each other?

I'm just really intersted in useing my new LCD Sony to receive HD.

73

Thanks for the great information - I'm only interested in the Digital(HD) channels so I will keep that in mind.


You might also want keep in mind that at some point - especially given your location, you might also find it useful at times to receive the Cincy or Columbus digital(HD) stations as well. As a couple of examples, Sometimes, they'll have different NFL games, or at this stage of the game, a station in one market might be having "technical" difficulities, or just simply "miss" the "switch" to the network HD feed(or may be inserting "weather alerts" which at this time requires most stations to drop to SD feed). Also, at times the Dayton affiliate may run "local" SD programming(or Billy Graham special/etc), ... you might get a UD game from WHIO-DT, but the CBS HD from the Cincinnati or Columbus affiliate.

Right now, while you won't get a LOT more HD programming from stations from other markets - there is "some" .. Also, WCET-DT(PBS HD) Cincinnati runs PBS HD channel feed 24/7(except the 3 or so nights a week they go off air in the wee hours of the morning), WPTD-DT Dayton Has PBS HD channel 6pm~6am nightly. Two other PBS stations in Cincinnati/NKY (WPTO-DT/WCVN-DT) run their own time shifted schedule of PBS HD programming, during prime time, nightly.

What I do here is use a high gain antenna setup(seperate VHF/UHF antennas/preamp/rotor, various "channel traps"(notch filters) to knock down a few of the stronger analog stations a bit) for Cincinnati+Oxford stations and a few Columbus/Indy/Louisville VHF's and for "dx'ing when conditions allow ... Usually, it's aimed at Cincinnati, however ... And, I use a seperate Antenna for Dayton(It's an old(about 20 years old) Radio Shack 25 element UHF Yagi+corner reflector side mounted to tower about 25ft up), on a seperate feedline, with A/B switch before receiver to choose between them. It's more convienient than a rotor for The Cincinnati/Dayton stations, and I use a A/B switch with a remote control which makes it even more convienient.

Also, even though you're only intertested in the Digital/HD stations as far as "watching" them goes ... While they are still on the air, I've found the analogs CAN sometimes be useful to diagnose any reception or "interference" issues you might encounter as these issues(basically ghosting=multipath, snow=weak signal, various sorts of lines, "static" and "sparkles" = different sorts of "interference", and in some cases intermod or front-end of receiver sensitivity/selectivity issues) show up "directly" on the screen with the analog stations -- something which isn't the case with digital TV, and unfortunetly, our ATSC(digital) receiver's don't really have adequete "RF signal" diagnostic tools to tell us what exactly is going on.
With Digital TV, you really need a spectrum analyzer($$$$ of course) for that. Usually, It'll be just some sort of "signal quality" meter with readings which are based on "bit" errors+the datastream rather than the actual RF signal itself. The internal ATSC Receiver in my Sony KD34XBR960 does offer a bit more(but still not anything that will really tell you anything about "multipath" or interference issues) than that, with SNR readings/etc in it's "diagnostic" menu, as well as some add'l information available on the transport streams(PSIP info/etc) in some undocumented sections of it's service menu, which are similiar to some of the info you can get with a PC-card tuner and TS-reader.


I wonder what effect if any keying up on my 2m & 70cm equipment might have on my tv - since the antennas will be only about 20-30 feet from each other?


Probably won't be a problem, I've never had any problems with anything like that here, at least. If anything, might be more likely you might run into some issues involving either poor RF shielding on the Tuner in the TV, or "IF stage" issues with the TV or other consumer equipment. The Latter, or similar issues involving HF Ham bands(and even AM broadcast band in some cases) are about the only things I've ever ran into, including the "TV" causing raised noise levels on certian HF frequencies.

Still, probably a good idea to try it first, if at all possible by mounting the antenna(and running the coax) "temporarily" at least as close as possible to where you plan to put it. Which is also usually a good idea, anyway in order to "check" your reception - as, there can be "cold spots" and "hot spots"(In your case+the dayton stations, if it's an issue at all it would probably moreso involve multipath issues - dynamic multipath issues especially) for these "wideband" DTV signals(especially given shorter UHF wavelentghs), and sometimes even moving the antenna a few inches, right or left or up or down can make a big difference.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but hope some of it helps+let us know how it goes!


I'm just really intersted in useing my new LCD Sony to receive HD.


Given what you're planning, that should work out very well for you! Enjoy ...

Anyone else having problems with WDTN-DT and the Olympics? I started watching it at 3pm and it didn't come through in HD. After calling the station, it took 20 mins for them to switch it over, but when they did there was sort of a colored ghosting, I've never seen anything like it on an HD feed.

Bad ghosting here too. Had to switch to the SD feed.

I thought TW had arranged to get us olympics in HD. It appears the UniversalNBC HD channel is not showing the main Olympics coverage.

:confused: :mad:

Anyone else having problems with WDTN-DT and the Olympics? I started watching it at 3pm and it didn't come through in HD. After calling the station, it took 20 mins for them to switch it over, but when they did there was sort of a colored ghosting, I've never seen anything like it on an HD feed.
I have it too. I remember seeing it once before, last fall some time. Thanks for calling to tell them to throw the switch. Try calling them back about the triple image.

That weird ghosting of the "colors" that's occuring from WDTN-DT during NBC HD feed from Olympics is interesting, and I've also seen it before, even back when WKEF-DT was NBC HD affiliate, during such events as the HD triple crown races.

BTW -- That weird ghosting is not there this time from the HD feed from WLWT-DT Cincinnati, so I assume it must be something going on on the "affiliate" end of things.

The reason it sometimes takes so long when you call them is(unless something has changed recently) to fix "switching" issues is because the switching to/from HD feed for WDTN-DT is controlled from a central LIN facility at WISH TV in Indianapolis.

Once they get enough calls about the Ghosting to realize something is wrong, it might take longer for them to get that fixed, as they may need the CE/etc. to come in to do some troubleshooting. Which may take longer on a weekend.

I thought TW had arranged to get us olympics in HD. It appears the UniversalNBC HD channel is not showing the main Olympics coverage.

:confused: :mad:
Universal HD will be doing simulcast coverage of events on CNBC and USA. NBC and NBCHD will be covering the primere events. I'm sorry that you were confused as to what olympic coverage Universal HD was going to provide.

Once they get enough calls about the Ghosting to realize something is wrong, it might take longer for them to get that fixed, as they may need the CE/etc. to come in to do some troubleshooting. Which may take longer on a weekend.

Their number is (937) 293-2101, so if the ghosting is there again at 8, we need to bombard them with calls, to see if something happens. The HD feed is basically, IMO, unwatchable when it's like this.

Universal HD will be doing simulcast coverage of events on CNBC and USA. NBC and NBCHD will be covering the primere events. I'm sorry that you were confused as to what olympic coverage Universal HD was going to provide.

Anyone know why we can't get NBC in HD? Is it a contract issue or a capability problem with the local station?

Their number is (937) 293-2101, so if the ghosting is there again at 8, we need to bombard them with calls, to see if something happens. The HD feed is basically, IMO, unwatchable when it's like this.

Looks like WDTN got it fixed for the 8PM broadcast...

The issue with WDTN and TW is actually both contractual and capacity.

Anyone know why we can't get NBC in HD?

You can. WDTN-DT (Dayton NBC HD affiliate) Broadcasts HD over the air(OTA), they are fully HD "capable", and broadcast all NBC HD.

All you need is antenna+ATSC(OTA HD) receiver to pick it up, otherwise(other than when you pay for products advertised in commercials), It's Free. No subscription fees.

The hardware costs for the antenna+receiver(if you don't have one already built into your set) cost less than the cost of about 6mos~year or so of cable service, and that's a one time fee and a permanent solution that doesn't involve monthly subscription fees.

I counted up the number of "channels" I receive Over the air the other day. Analog+digital, from the Dayton AND cincinnati stations -- that number is 57 channels. Just from Dayton+Cincinnati. Since most digital stations are simulcasting the programming that is on their analog station, that involves generally anywhere from about 25~35 different programming choices at any time, the fewer choices occur during network prime time hours when the local PBS digital stations are multicasting fewer SD channels+providing HD, and when Cincinnati+Dayton Network affiliates are running the same programming(usually HD). 2 of the Cincinnati area PBS affilates run a different PBS HD programming schedule, so you have 3 different PBS HD(or widescreen SD upconverted to HD for broadcast) programs on at the same time in prime time.


The issue with WDTN and TW is actually both contractual and capacity.


Your "capacity" answer makes no sense to me. Unless you are saying they "don't have room" to add another station to their system(NBC HD at that), and I suspect that's very unlikely.

WDTN-DT sends a 19.38Mb/s datastream, so does WHIO-DT. The only difference is, WDTN-DT splits it up between a HD and a SD channel. The capacity needed by the cableco to carry either station is exactly the same.

Now what's going on? They fixed the tripple image ghost, but now WDTN HD OTA keeps blacking out every 5 or 10 minutes (or is it just me)?

Now what's going on? They fixed the tripple image ghost, but now WDTN HD OTA keeps blacking out every 5 or 10 minutes (or is it just me)?

Nope, it's not just you. Just got a BIG dose of it at ~9:30~9:35pm, from the HD feed from BOTH WDTN-DT AND WLWT-DT Cincinnati(I didn't check the SD feed on the analog stations or 2-1). So, Looks like its a network issue/issue with the feed, as it's happening from WLWT-DT Cincinnati as well. It's Happening during the current network commercial break as well(HD commercial).

Nope, it's not just you. Just got a BIG dose of it at ~9:30~9:35pm, from the HD feed from BOTH WDTN-DT AND WLWT-DT Cincinnati(I didn't check the SD feed on the analog stations or 2-1). So, Looks like its a network issue/issue with the feed, as it's happening from WLWT-DT Cincinnati as well. It's Happening during the current network commercial break as well(HD commercial).

Jeff, my other DTV Tivo picks up SD Cincinatti - no breaks there; so its the HD feed.

EDIT - So they change it to SD for a few minutes; HD is back now. Boy that SD was ugly by comparison. This is my first Olympics with HD. It's an amazing difference (and I'm actually only seeing the the "ED" vestion on my ED plasma.)

Anyway, looks like the HD feed is stable now.

The weather(snow) in NY is causing the "dropout" problems on NBC HD feed that are occuring currently. See here for more info as posted from an engineer at a NBC affiliate :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7114283&&#post7114283

If I recall correctly from info that was posted on this some time ago in Programming area, I think it's probably related to STL's or the sat uplink in NYC NBC is using for the HD feed, and the rather high frequencies being used with it which are effected by water droplets/etc. I don't how related this is, but I believe I've heard the spectrum is rather crowded these days in some areas, especially when it comes to finding suitable "authorization" etc for Microwave STL's.

Hence, the current situation is that when the weather is bad in NYC, we get this sort of thing ....

3 years, 6 days until current scheduled "hard" analog shut off date .... tick tock ... tick tock .... ;)

The issue with WDTN and TW is actually both contractual and capacity.

Would be nice to have them on cable since reception on an indoor antenna is a bit flaky. (Post-move, I don't have any antennas hooked up yet.) I have yet to check out any of the coverage on Universal HD.

I'm glad my PC card has "ant" and "cable" inputs, but it stinks for those on TWC who might want to use their DVR.

I have yet to check out any of the coverage on Universal HD. To be honest, it generally sucks.... Go to UHD's website and see for yourself. It seems that they don't want to interrupt their re-runs of Knight Rider or The Equalizer or Quantum Leap with stupid Olympics.... I mean, today you could watch ice hockey at 10:30am or ice hockey at 1:00pm or ice hockey at 6:00pm. Maybe tomorrow will be better.... Nope, fooled you !! Ice hockey again ... at either 9am or 6pm. Things are surely better on Tuesday though but I'll let ya check for yourself. :(

I live in Xenia can somone help me out with a good antenna to get HD ota - I live on the SW side of town.If you look back only a page or two, you'll see posts from "larrysano" who also lives in Xenia. I believe he ended up with a Terk indoor antenna and is getting excellent results with it.Hall, thanks for replying for me as I was away for the weekend. But yes, the Terk HDTVi is the antenna I have, and quite honestly, unless you live next to a 40ft. brick wall, I don't really see any need to have an outdoor antenna given your location. If you like to show off your equipment though, that's another story :D I get all of Dayton's and most of Cincinnati's stations, usually with an average signal strength of close to 90%.

Nitewatchman made a good point though about all the channels you can pick up from Dayton, Cincinnati, and Columbus in this area. If you'd like to pick up Columbus stations with a directional antenna, then an outdoor model with a rotor would probably be the way to go.

When it comes to antennas, I figured I'd start with the cheapest, smallest, easiest solution and work my way up. No reason to mount hardware and fish cable through walls if you don't have to.

Good luck!

But yes, the Terk HDTVi is the antenna I have, and quite honestly, unless you live next to a 40ft. brick wall, I don't really see any need to have an outdoor antenna given your location.
!

Keep in mind -- just as you had mentioned before about location -- reception can vary greatly depending upon a great many factors. For instance, while you may find getting 24/7 dropout free reception from indoors, all 6 Dayton digital stations(NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, PBS, WB HD), that might not turn out to be the case for your neighbor.


When it comes to antennas, I figured I'd start with the cheapest, smallest, easiest solution and work my way up. No reason to mount hardware and fish cable through walls if you don't have to.


And, that's one good way of doing it that should work well for many folks .. especially if you don't care about working on outdoor antenna install in colder weather ...

However, as a general "rule" I think it actually usually is a good idea to use a outdoor, directional antenna. It's great that you are getting reliable reception from indoors and, of course there is no reason for you to install an outdoor antenna if you don't wish, and if you are getting 100% Solid, dropout free reception from all the stations you want to receive, 24/7, 365 days a year ...

However, a properly installed, outdoor directional antenna usually gives you quite a bit of extra "insurance" against any possible signal strength issues(for instance, if a station has problems and has to temorparily operate at low power, or with a temporary transmitting antenna at lower height/etc) AND multipath issues(dynamic multipath can particularly be a problem issue), and even in some cases, some interference related issues involving various household appliances(much moreso on VHF however).

Keep in mind -- just as you had mentioned before about location -- reception can vary greatly depending upon a great many factors. For instance, while you may find getting 24/7 dropout free reception from indoors, that might not turn out to be the case for your neighbor.Very true :) I almost forgot my own axiom that an antenna is only as good as your location!
However, a properly installed, outdoor directional antenna usually gives you quite a bit of extra "insurance" against any possible signal strength issues.Also true. I guess it just boils down to a personal preference issue on this one. For me, insurance against a lost TV signal isn't something I'm too concerned with. Yeah, it's annoying once in a while (like when I lost WHIO last week, but I don't think that was antenna related), but when it becomes a regular occurance, then I'll step up the next level antenna-wise.

The satellite dish or my movie collection can keep me entertained in the meantime during any signal issues I run into. :cool: (I also have a weather radio on hand just in case of any emergencies)

For me, insurance against a lost TV signal isn't something I'm too concerned with.

Hopefully you won't have this problem(and there's a very good chance you Won't - except perhaps very, very rarely, given the results you're getting with your current antennas setup - and if you do it might just require slightly different "tweaking" of the placement of your indoor antenna), but, nevertheless, you still might find it quite annoying if reception related issues cause dropouts when you're trying to watch something you're quite interested in ...

With analog TV(OTA, and analog cable often experiences these sorts of issues for various reasons as well), reception impariments result in annoying "snow" or "ghosts" or "sqiggly" lines -- but the picture(content) and Audio are still there, continuously ... With digital TV, when you drop below SNR required for reception(~16db S/N - uncorrectable multipath is also seen as "noise" by the receiver), There is Nothing ... No audio/no video, no nothing ... Which can be extremely annoying when it occurs as "dropouts", where you loose everything for a few seconds at a time ...

Alright, quick question. Does Time Warner WOH get nbc in HD? Everywhere Ive looked indicates no, but from what Ive read it seems as though most time warner areas have it in HD, am I missing it somewhere?

No, the NBC affiliate here is WDTN and it is NOT carried by Time Warner (the digital feed). Go to TW's local website, http://www.twdayton.com/, click Programming, Channel Lineups, then pick your area. The digital feeds are in the 700-range where you see WHIO, the PBS digital channels, WKEF, and so on.

Each area needs to negotiate with their own local stations whether or not to carry the digital channel. Plenty of areas have a channel or two that's not carried by the local cableco for the same reasons.

No, the NBC affiliate here is WDTN and it is NOT carried by Time Warner (the digital feed). Go to TW's local website, http://www.twdayton.com/, click Programming, Channel Lineups, then pick your area. The digital feeds are in the 700-range where you see WHIO, the PBS digital channels, WKEF, and so on.

Each area needs to negotiate with their own local stations whether or not to carry the digital channel. Plenty of areas have a channel or two that's not carried by the local cableco for the same reasons.

Well this is getting annoying. UniversalNBC HD was added for just the Olympics (apparently) and it isn't the prime coverage. Now I just realized that NBC has taken over night NFL Football games from ABC. I want local NBC in HD on TimeWarner. Who can I contact to find out why and if there is anything that can be done here???!!!!

The "why" basically is that WDTN's parent company wants TWC to pay them to re-transmit the digital channel and TWC doesn't want to pay. If they pay WDTN, what will the other local stations do ?? They'll expect to get paid also.

Realistically, there's NOTHING anyone can do. LIN TV is doing this all over the country, it seems.

Speaking of interference problems -- if a call comes in on my cell phone, WLWT (the only station I watch OTA and I am boycotting WDTN) goes out completely. On second thought this happens with every OTA station. The problem would probably be solved if I moved the antenna off the TV and outside. Cell phone is 850mhz GSM.

Well this is getting annoying. UniversalNBC HD was added for just the Olympics (apparently) and it isn't the prime coverage. Now I just realized that NBC has taken over night NFL Football games from ABC. I want local NBC in HD on TimeWarner. Who can I contact to find out why and if there is anything that can be done here???!!!!

Good luck, I've been inquiring for at least 2 years... Your best bet is to pick up a ATSC tuner on eBay for ~100 bucks and grab an indoor antenna and then you don't have to worry...

The thought occurred to me this morning to take out an ad in the Dayton Daily News "informing" companies, i.e. advertisers, of this situation and to tell them how many potential customers they're missing. I wonder if someone could even get TW to subsidize, unofficially, of course, the ad !! :D

I know that the fact is, the number of people is probably so small that the advertisers really don't care. With the popularity of HD nowadays, maybe it would strike a chord with some though. I personally think the vast majority of people get HD via cable. I'd guess that OTA (via satellite set-tops) is second, with straight OTA being the least common. Does anyone know of stats for this ?? That would play against WDTN's likely response of "you can get it free over-the-air". Well, it isn't free in many cases, as you need to buy a receiver (when your TV doesn't have a built-in tuner).

The thought occurred to me this morning to take out an ad in the Dayton Daily News "informing" companies, i.e. advertisers, of this situation and to tell them how many potential customers they're missing. I wonder if someone could even get TW to subsidize, unofficially, of course, the ad !! :D

I doubt WDTN would really care about this anyways, sure the # of people complaining is very small, but really how many people of those complaining aren't watching the SD version of the shows they like enough to also want to see in HD.

I know there are people out there that choose their programming whether it's in HD or not, but I'd guess that most people choose their programming based on the content of the show and whether they like it or not.

I know it's a long-shot and was just thinking out loud... More to just cause an annoyance to WDTN or make them look bad, especially by saying something along the lines of WHIO, WKEF, etc aren't asking for add'l money to do the same.
I know there are people out there that choose their programming whether it's in HD or not... Sad, isn't that ?? As a matter of fact, I've lost interest in CSI Miami and NY because of the storylines and/or characters. Miami is a stunning show to watch, but I won't watch it for just that reason.

Speaking of interference problems -- if a call comes in on my cell phone, WLWT <big snip> goes out completely. On second thought this happens with every OTA station. The problem would probably be solved if I moved the antenna off the TV and outside. Cell phone is 850mhz GSM.

Difficult to say if that would help or not. If the "actual" signal(RF) emanating from the antenna on your cell phone(which should only be at ~850 MHZ, and a very narrow range of frequnecies) is interfering with the entire UHF TV band(470~806MHZ) and or even VHF TV band(54~88 MHZ+174~216 MHZ) : Radio astronmoners, the Gov't, and even me when you drive by my house using your cell phone would be exerpeincing interference issues from it ;)

Now, if you said you were running your PC with a 800MHZ processor and the case open and had your antenna aimed right at the PC, I'd say it's very likely you'll see some "interesting" stuff occur with the "snow"(in this area) on channel 69(800~806MHZ). Possibly even channel 68.

I think it more likely however IF(intermediate frequency), or "image" frequency and the superhetrodyne receiver(probably a single conversion tuner) for your ATSC receiver and/or, "IF" for the cell phone may be more likely an issue involved with your interference issue.

Whether or not moving the TV antenna farther away from where you're using the cell phone will help is difficult to say, as the problem may more involve poor RF shielding on the tuner in the receiver(STB) itself, or in your cell phone. So instead of the antenna you might need to move the STB or TV away from the cell phone when you use it, or even better, move the cell phone away from the TV.

Issues along these lines are also why they don't want people using cell phones in Hosptials, as these sorts of issues can effect medical equipment as well, even though the "equipment" is not necessarily using the same frequencies as your cell phone is transmitting on(~850MHZ). Everything electronic "uses", or creates RF signals in some shape or form and, in some cases there can be many different frequencies involved. And unfortunetly, I think issues such as these aren't often ...umm .. let's say "well coordinated" when it comes to design of electronic equipment, perhaps especially consumer equipment designs.

For a more detailed, in depth+more technically accurate info, you might google for "intermediate frequency", or "image frequency" and interfernce/etc. Here's generally basic (but accurate) definintions :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate_frequency

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_frequency

Here's another good "interference primer" that includes some info on this :

http://www.radioing.com/eengineer/rfi.html

Also, follows is an excellent article relating to DTV (ATSC) receiver design, which also includes an excellent section explaining the interference issues of concern with "IF's" and especially when it comes to the design of single conversion, superhetrodyne receivers -- This offers some excellent information on designs which have been used over the history of broadcasting, as more and more, and higher and higher portions of the RF spectrum are used. From what I've also read elsewhere, I believe most ATSC receivers currently available to consumers use a single conversion design, probably as they are less expensive to manufacture :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/digital_tv/f_charles_Rhodes.shtml

Here is also a very good example(PDF format - requires acrobat reader), in this case very much along the lines of what I expect is possible you may be experiencing -- except in this case, involving interference findings involving a "hand held transmitter", and IF and interference to TV receivers in the UK :

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/topics/research/rtcg/projects/project397.pdf

The thought occurred to me this morning to take out an ad in the Dayton Daily News "informing" companies, i.e. advertisers, of this situation and to tell them how many potential customers they're missing. I wonder if someone could even get TW to subsidize, unofficially, of course, the ad !! :D

I know that the fact is, the number of people is probably so small that the advertisers really don't care. With the popularity of HD nowadays, maybe it would strike a chord with some though. I personally think the vast majority of people get HD via cable. I'd guess that OTA (via satellite set-tops) is second, with straight OTA being the least common. Does anyone know of stats for this ?? That would play against WDTN's likely response of "you can get it free over-the-air". Well, it isn't free in many cases, as you need to buy a receiver (when your TV doesn't have a built-in tuner).


WDTN is a broadcaster not a cable network . TW is their competition. Why would they let them have thier signal any more than they would let WHIO re transmit itt?

Given the number of people who receive WDTN via cable vs the number who receive WDTN for "free", over the air, I'd say that WDTN is glad to have TW around.... They are NOT competitors.

According to Nielsen, there are 110 million TV households in the US. According to In-Stat, there are 69 million cable tv subscribers in the US. Dish Network claims to have 11 million customers; I thought DirecTV had more but can't find a number, so let's say they're equal. That leaves 21 million households ... or 20%. Who do you think WDTN would rather have, 20% of the market or 55% ??

WDTN is a broadcaster not a cable network . TW is their competition. Why would they let them have thier signal any more than they would let WHIO re transmit itt?

If it is actually true that WDTN is seeking $ for cable carriage of their HD and that's truly the stumbling block in the negotiations, the key word here in your post I think is "have". The cablenets don't usually let the local cableco's just "have" the distribution rights for their signals in any particular market a cableco serves, I see no reason why it's necessarily the case the local TV stations/affiliates should either. Especially when the broadcasters already have their own means of delivery(OTA) to viewers. As you say, broadcasters are broadcasters, not "cable channels".

Again, if that is the issue involved, seems to be good business sense on LIN/WDTN's part to me. Their SD signal is available to everyone in Dayton market via OTA, or DBS LiL, or via cable. And, via those 3 means of delivery is how most people will be watching it(SD) currently without complaints, and their HD signal is available OTA. Why NOT find ways to make $ with the HD signal, when there are currently few ways to do so, and you've just spent millions to build your Digital TV station(s). Seems like good business sense to me at this stage, If folks want to try to "make them look bad for that", I guess that's their perogative, but I think that's pretty ridiculous, really. They are after all running a business, not a "Concern for cable viewers who have to put up antennas for HD" soceity .....

It''s definitely a "love/hate" relationship between broadcasters and cable, though.
But, I disagree with those who would say "cable", and the all the services(channels) cable or sat provides isn't WDTN's competitor. Cablenets are other cablenets competition, for that matter.

As I recall, last info I saw (I believe taken from info based on Neilsen info from fall 2003 ), indicated 15.7% or so of households(about 80,000 Households) in the Dayton market are OTA Only. You might not see this on your block or in your neighborhood, but that doesn't mean there isn't a significant number of OTA viewers out there in our region. Also, OTA viewers who also use cable or satellite, and OTA viewers in Cincinnati market, or other nearby markets which watch the Dayton stations are not counted in those numbers, and I can tell you from experience it's usually pretty easy to point a antenna towards Dayton when you're in Cincinnati(only ~40 miles away) and get good signals -- sometimes more easily than the Cincinnati stations, which may be at vastly different directions from your location.

And, Keep in mind, in OTA Only households, the stations don't have the competition for viewers from the 100's of channels available on cable which ARE very much a competitive factor for the broadcasters from Cable+sat.

As TV programming seems to be becoming more and more of a "niche" thing in the "multichannel" universe of cable+sat, I expect(hope anyway) those OTA only households could end up become more and more of importance to Broadcasters, and advertisers. Although analog shut off, and the way it's been handled so far by many parties involved is a "problem issue", it might even be the case the OTA Only audience may grow larger as cable+satellite subscriber fees continue rise. Also, from some of what I've read, many folks seem to be becoming less, and less interested in TV. Probably not much reason to pay $50 a month for it if you don't watch very much of it, and there are all those other bills coming in as well these days ....

I recall reading a bit about NASCAR's most recent negotiating with content providers for coverage/distribution rights. I'd read The NASCAR folks, for instance were quite concerned with providing a certian amount of coverage for their OTA audience ......

In any case, I guess part of the problem is, on Dayton cable, there's only NBC+WB HD that's "missing" from the local affiliates. If it were the case NONE of the HD from the stations were on cable, it might make it easier for the "cable only" folks to justify the relataively small expense(compared to say 6mos~year of cable bills) of adding an antenna, or ATSC receiver+antenna(which again is a *one time* expense, even an outdoor antenna will generally last decades if properly installed) if they don't have a ATSC tuner inside the set .... And, even though I think most folks should be able to find a use for that for other things besides just HD from WDTN(such as for the Cincy or columbus stations), I do understand why folks don't want to spend a couple hundred bucks for just "one channel" ....

And, Don't take that the wrong way. Although, from a purely personal perspective I really don't care one way or the other since cable doesn't serve my rural location, and even if it did, I wouldn't have any use for it, anyway --- Nevertheless, from the perspective of everyone getting all the HD they want, or for convienience sake for using their "cable only" DVR's/etc, I'd certianly like it if everyone could get "what they wanted" with this matter .... However, again, I also realize the station's are running a business, and I think it may even make sense for them to "charge" the cableco for retransmission rights for HD at this stage of the game ...

Just called TWC to pay my bill over the phone, where a recorded message stated substantially as follows, "Partial olympic coverage will be available in high definition on channel 977. Full coverage is not available due to the fact that the local NBC affiliate not having a high definition channel at this time. Full coverage is unavailable."

Sounds a bit misleading to say the least.

Edit to add: this page advertising TWC Dayton service states full olympic HD coverage is available: http://www.timewarnercable.com/dayton/olympics/default.html

..................... due to the fact that the local NBC affiliate not having a high definition channel at this time. Full coverage is unavailable."

Sounds a bit misleading to say the least.

To say the least ...

Full HD coverage from WDTN-DT, Dayton NBC is working just fine here OTA ....

Given the number of people who receive WDTN via cable vs the number who receive WDTN for "free", over the air, I'd say that WDTN is glad to have TW around.... They are NOT competitors.

According to Nielsen, there are 110 million TV households in the US. According to In-Stat, there are 69 million cable tv subscribers in the US. Dish Network claims to have 11 million customers; I thought DirecTV had more but can't find a number, so let's say they're equal. That leaves 21 million households ... or 20%. Who do you think WDTN would rather have, 20% of the market or 55% ??

But WDTN is available to everyone who has TW and everyone who doesn't. So you think if its not on TW. No one would watch them? A bent coathanger could probably get a perfect digital OTA picture in Dayton. I know my indoor works fine for WDTN from Cincinnati. They have pretty much 100% market penetration. Do you really think that no one would watch 24 or lost or Desparate Housewives if they weren't on TW.

Being that I do not own an OTA HD receiver, I have not watched a minute of the Olympics on NBC (I have watched a bit of women's hockey on UHD, there was nothing else to watch Saturday morning). Instead I have watched college basketball on ESPN, or found other things to watch. I am not against the Olympics, but if I'm going to sit down and watch sports, if my team is not playing I'll choose to watch the sport that is being received in HD. Therefore I have not watched the Olympics nor do I plan on watching it any time over the next couple of weeks. I don't know how many people are like me, but I'd imagine there is at least a fair percentage of the HD views in the area who think in a similar way.

The funny thing about this is this is the first time I've actually cared about what NBC was showing (and wanted in HD), so before the last week I never really cared. I think that says more about their current lineup of TV shows, however, than their HD issues. The only show on NBC that I current miss is "The Office", but I have that coming on DVD from Blockbuster so I really don't care (I'll catch up after the current season is released on DVD).

Either way... I do not even flip past NBC (on channel 9) to see what is on when I'm watching TV, I stay in the 700's (HD tier), 300's (HBO/SHO), and in the 30-100 range (no HD, but good channels) instead. So, in this case, they are, at minimum, losing 2 viewers since my wife generally does the same thing as me.

But WDTN is available to everyone who has TW and everyone who doesn't. So you think if its not on TW. No one would watch them? A bent coathanger could probably get a perfect digital OTA picture in Dayton. I know my indoor works fine for WDTN from Cincinnati. They have pretty much 100% market penetration. Do you really think that no one would watch 24 or lost or Desparate Housewives if they weren't on TW.

You are under the perception that everyone has an ATSC (digital) receiver. My TV and my projector do not have them built in, therefore I have to have a STB (set top box) to display HD. I've been hesitant to buy an ATSC receiver due to only missing NBC-HD, something of which I really do not miss (and, as stated in my last post, mostly because I do not even know what is on their station since I don't flip past the non-HD channels below 30 on TWC). So, knowing that most people have HDTV "monitors" (no receiver built in), I'd say their HD penetration is not very high since they aren't carried on TWC, Dish, or DirecTV.

So you think if its not on TW. No one would watch them? A bent coathanger could probably get a perfect digital OTA picture in Dayton.


Good point. Broadcasters know this as well. Many, if not most people will do what they have to do to watch the programming they want to watch. As long as the broadcast nets provide quality programming people want to watch, people will find a way to watch it[that doesn't necessarily mean it will be HD, or "digital" at this time, or that people will rush out to buy a ATSC receiver as long as the analogs are on air], whether or not it's available on cable or DBS.

You are under the perception that everyone has an ATSC (digital) receiver.


Seems like a pretty matter of fact statement. Didn't see digital only say that anywhere.

Could be wrong, but What you seem to be missing concerning your "perception" is that compared to the NON HD cable audience, Or, even likely the OTA Only Analog audience, the HD cable audience is small. Should be getting larger, though. Hopefully, along with the Sat/OTA folks getting HD from the locals OTA, into the few 10's of thousands or so in our area by now.


So, knowing that most people have HDTV "monitors" (no receiver built in), I'd say their HD penetration is not very high since they aren't carried on TWC, Dish, or DirecTV.

As for all the models of HD "monitors", you can thank the electronic manufatuers for that. Don't blame the TV station. Hopefully, that situation will change soon per FCC's tuner mandate. Including involving "digital cable ready" sets, which must also have a ATSC receiver "built in". Of course, ATSC recievers in Cable STB's/DVR's would take care of your "issue" as well. I'd be asking TW for one of those, If I were you.

Projectors being one exception(and you could hook a cheap VCR up to one of those for the NTSC tuner) Most of the "HD" montiors out there do include NTSC tuners, which also work for analog OTA and analog cable. I mention those because, the FCC ATSC tuner mandate(on a phased in schedule by screen size) will soon require any "set" which has a NTSC tuner to include a ATSC receiver as well. Will the manufactuers start making more completely "tunerless" "HD monitors" to get around this? I doubt it. As time goes on, I think you should see fewer and fewer sets without ATSC(or "digital cable ready") capability, but yeah, it's still going to be a few years before virtually all sets have internal ATSC receivers in them, and are "digital cable ready".

Also, All Dish network and DirecTV HD receivers include ATSC(OTA) HD receivers as well.

While not necessarily representative of the entire "HD" viewership out there, it's more info than we have from elsewhere on this --- Here's the 2006 HDTV STB/receiver poll of avsforum members (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=627967&page=1), there are links there to polls from previous years as well. It currently indicates that Roughly 70% are "mostly" using equipment which have ATSC(OTA) HD receivers - either a HD sat receiver, a standalone OTA receiver(about the same number using those as are using cable STB), built into their TV or a PC card tuner, and that roughly 30% are using HD via cable - via a cable STB, internal QAM/cablecard, or PC card.

Seems like a pretty matter of fact statement. Didn't see digital only say that anywhere.

Fair point, going from his statements it appears this is an assumption he is making.

Could be wrong, but What you seem to be missing concerning your "perception" is that compared to the NON HD cable audience, Or, even likely the OTA Only Analog audience, the HD cable audience is small. Should be getting larger, though. Hopefully, along with the Sat/OTA folks getting HD from the locals OTA, into the few 10's of thousands or so in our area by now.

I don't deny that the HD audience (whether OTA or on cable) are small. The point is that if they continue to ignore the audience, they are shooting themselves in the foot. The only show I now "need to see" is going to be the NFL this fall.

As for all the models of HD "monitors", you can thank the electronic manufatuers for that. Don't blame the TV station. Hopefully, that situation will change soon per FCC's tuner mandate. Including involving "digital cable ready" sets, which must also have a ATSC receiver "built in". Of course, ATSC recievers in Cable STB's/DVR's would take care of your "issue" as well. I'd be asking TW for one of those, If I were you.

I'm not blaming anybody for it. I bought the TV knowing it had no ATSC tuner in it (of course, when I bought it not many did). The station still needs to know its audience, and I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of HDTVs sold have been sold to date have been sold as "monitors", with no ATSC tuner.

Also, All Dish network and DirecTV HD receivers include ATSC(OTA) HD receivers as well.

Besides the fact that Dish and D* seem to adopt major HD channels faster (ESPN2HD specifically), this is a major reason why I continue to look at them. Of course, their HD (especially D*) do not look as good as the uncompressed HD on TWC. That is the only reason I haven't pulled the trigger yet...

While not necessarily representative of the entire "HD" viewership out there, it's more info than we have from elsewhere on this --- Here's the 2006 HDTV STB/receiver poll of avsforum members (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=627967&page=1), there are links there to polls from previous years as well. It currently indicates that Roughly 70% are "mostly" using equipment which have ATSC(OTA) HD receivers - either a HD sat receiver, a standalone OTA receiver(about the same number using those as are using cable STB), built into their TV or a PC card tuner, and that roughly 30% are using HD via cable - via a cable STB, internal QAM/cablecard, or PC card.

I would say it definitely isn't representative of the current HD viewership market. AVS is, for the most part, the top end of HDTV enthusiasts. The people who come to this site (at least thus far) are early adopters who will spend money to see a better picture (and audio). Many of us have purchased ATSC tuners separately (I have not).

Another stat I would like to know is the number of people who use cable vs. the number of people who use a satellite option who answered this poll. It seems to me that satellite dominates this site due to the fact that in many areas around the country the cable companies did not give good HD service. Obviously those people have the built in ATSC tuner on their STB, therefore they count in the 70% figure.

I would say it definitely isn't representative of the current HD viewership market. AVS is, for the most part, the top end of HDTV enthusiasts. The people who come to this site (at least thus far) are early adopters who will spend money to see a better picture (and audio). The number of respondents give that poll very little value also. As of 2-3 minutes ago, there are 3600 people just at the site. That says nothing about the total number of members here. Yet only 260 or so voted in that poll.

The point is that if they continue to ignore the audience,


I'm sure WDTN is very aware of it's audience.


I would say it definitely isn't representative of the current HD viewership market.


Maybe, but I don't know. Seems to me all sorts of folks, with all levels of interest in HT/HD/etc, visit this site and post here. Also, check out the links in the 2006 thread to the polls from previous years and their results, I think all of them together make the poll a little more "statistically" signficant, concerning AVSforum members.


Another stat I would like to know is the number of people who use cable vs. the number of people who use a satellite option who answered this poll.

I Think it's pretty easy to figure out a reasonable estimate for that. 30% cable, 46% satellite+OTA(hard to say how many are using the OTA HD portion of the receiver, I'd guess many of them), and 24% OTA Only would probably be a good estimate to answer to your question, and also include the "entire" 100% of the pie.

Current results from the poll show 22% chose the "Cable STB" option, 17% reported using a standalone, OTA only ATSC STB. Approx 48% indicated they are using a Sat+OTA HD receiver. 2% said they were using internal "digital ready" tuner in their set with cable HD. 12% said they were using a PC tuner card - either with OTA or cable --- They were asked to comment in the thread if they were using it with cable instead of OTA, or both. 2.5% indicate they are using internal ATSC receiver in their set for OTA only.

So, Obviously, about 30%(and I think that's a forgiving overestimate) or so of respondants are mostly using cable for HD, and something around 22~24% or so of respondants or so are mostly using OTA only for HD, and about 48% are using Sat receivers, which all have ATSC(OTA) receivers in them as well. While one would THINK they would want to use it for HD from the Broadcast nets, How many of those 48% are actually using the OTA portion of the sat receiver, or how many are using their sat receiver for ONLY OTA HD(without a current subscription for the satellite programming) is also difficult to say.

That's about(a rough over estimate, likely) 30% of respondants using cable for HD, and about 70% with a ATSC (HD) receiver. Some of the folks using Sat+OTA boxes may not be using it with OTA, and in a few markets, a few of the respondants may be getting the broadcast affiliates via LiL.

Except for a few markets at this time, Folks using Satellite who are receiving OTA HD from the broadcast nets are receiving it OTA via the ATSC portion of their receiver for the "Major" HD channels+ HD programming from the local affiliates of ABC, CBS, NBC/etc.

That's about(a rough over estimate, likely) 30% of respondants using cable for HD, and about 70% with a ATSC (HD) receiver. Some of the folks using Sat+OTA boxes may not be using it with OTA, and in a few markets, a few of the respondants may be getting the broadcast affiliates via LiL.

I'll leave it at this... I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that in Dayton, 70% of HDTV owners are capable (whether through Satellite STB, ATSC built in tuner, or ATSC STB tuner) of picking up the OTA DT signal.

I find it much easier to believe that nationally there are higher percentages (not necessarily 70%), but locally the cable companies are at a MUCH higher percentage than any other type, IMO. I'd like to see the market share numbers for people who live inside of cable TV served areas, as I'd bet that cable has at least 70% of the share if not higher. Obviously in rural (not very high population density) areas the satellite/OTA solutions are the kings, since they have no other option.

Who knows, though, I have yet to see a study of Dayton's viewing shares (cable, OTA, DBS, BUD, etc.). I can only go by what I see, and in my neighborhood (Kettering) there are very few DBS dishes, BUD, or OTA outdoor antennas, but I do see on the side of most houses a box that strongly resembles the TWC box on the side of my house.

I find it EXTREMELY hard to believe that in Dayton, 70% of HDTV owners are capable (whether through Satellite STB, ATSC built in tuner, or ATSC STB tuner) of picking up the OTA DT signal.
.

My comments which you quoted were based only on the responses to the poll on AVSforum. I did not say they were indicitive of the entire HD viewership in ANY given market, or nationwide for that matter, I said I did not know about that.

Concerning what I think you Mean here ..... Of the folks that actually DO have an HD source hooked up to their set out there in Dayton market, it's really difficult to say what percentage is using what means of delivery. While I personally suspect for various reasons(some of them quite unfortunate reasons, IMO) that HD cable viewers in this area are quickly increasing faster than OTA or sat, and I suspect are probably already the majority of the HD viewership in many markets, including this one, it's really difficult to say for sure at this point without better info available.

Who knows. Of the small HD vieweship currently in Dayton market, It could be 50% OTA+sat, 50% HD cable, or it could be 90% cable, 10% OTA+sat, or it could be 30% cable, 70% OTA+sat, and I suspect those numbers are changing rather quickly at present.

Also keep in mind what you are seeing in your neighborhood, or among your neighbors and friends is not necessarily the case in say, Huber Heights, Fairborn or Troy, and also, indoor antennas(which is what it seems most people are using for OTA) can't be seen from outside the house.

It was only a few, short years ago there was little to NO HD on local cable systems. Some of the Cincinnati digital stations have been on air and sending HD since 1998(what very little of it there was at that time), the first Dayton HD station - WHIO-DT made it to air in Fall of 2001, and the amount of HD programming didn't really start taking off until fall of 2002.

It's only been the last couple of years 4 of Dayton stations have made agreements with TW Dayton/WOH for cable carriage of HD, WHIO being the last to make an agreement, early last year If I recall correctly. Think it was mid or late 2002 or early 03 or so that WKEF-DT became the first local HD station on Dayton TW, I think they had one or two HD cablenets on TW HD at that time as well. WRGT-DT was carried by TW since mid~late 2002 or early 03 as well, but didn't get "fox widescreen" capability until Summer 2004, and FOX+WRGT-DT didn't start doing HD until Fall 2004.

What I'm trying to get at with that is that we're still early in this thing, and things are starting to pick up, but, I'd be careful when trying to estimate the numbers of HD viewers out there in Daytonland that are watching HD from any source, and using ANY means of delivery, including cable.

Now ---- concerning what you actually said rather than what I think you meant --- Just about everyone in the area with an HD set is capable of adding a ATSC receiver+antenna and picking up HD olympics from WDTN-DT, and the HD from the other local stations. And, I think that is also the important part of the point Digital Only is trying to make which you seem to be missing. He did not say everyone HAD an ATSC receiver, he said the signal was available -- meaning it's available for those WHO DO OR DO NOT currently have a ATSC receiver. WDTN-DT does not NEED cable in order to get their signal, or HD to viewers who want to watch NBC HD, and also, all their+NBC's programming is getting to "cable only" viewers via their SD signal.

As far as how many people who have HD capable sets in the area are even using them at all with HD sources - be it via cable, sat OR OTA services .... I suspect the numbers of folks with HD sets that are hooked to NO HD source whatsoever is relatively high at this time.


I find it much easier to believe that nationally there are higher percentages (not necessarily 70%), but locally the cable companies are at a MUCH higher percentage than any other type, IMO. I'd like to see the market share numbers for people who live inside of cable TV served areas, as I'd bet that cable has at least 70% of the share if not higher. Obviously in rural (not very high population density) areas the satellite/OTA solutions are the kings, since they have no other option.


Of course, at the present time what's going on with HD viewership and "market share", and how folks are receiving HD is not the same thing as the rest of the "TV" universe.

Sure cable has the largest market share of TV housholds, on average nationwide AND in Dayton market, although there are some large markets with much lower cable penetration+ even much larger OTA Only audiences, percentage wise. And, Even many small communities, and to an extent rural areas are served by cable. My specific location isn't, but that is not necessarily typical.

That Doesn't mean WDTN-DT has to be carried on cable for folks to be able to watch their HD. Folks can use OTA for that.

Eventually, I think it's a pretty good bet it will likely be carried by TW sooner or later, but there are no guarentees about that -- even post-analog shut off, when I'd think it will be MUCH more likely to be more of a concern for both TW and WDTN .....


Who knows, though, I have yet to see a study of Dayton's viewing shares (cable, OTA, DBS, BUD, etc.). I can only go by what I see, and in my neighborhood (Kettering) there are very few DBS dishes, BUD, or OTA outdoor antennas, but I do see on the side of most houses a box that strongly resembles the TWC box on the side of my house.

It doesn't break down cable vs. satellite -- however In the document available at link below, which was submitted to FCC concerning their request for comments on the effects of DTV transistion on OTA viewers(note : document at Link requires acrobat reader ) :

http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6516287290

In appendix A of above document it shows a breakdown of U.S. TV households by market, the data is from of Nov 2003. It doesn't breakdown Cable Vs. satellite but it does tell you the total number of TV households per market, and the number of OTA ONLY households(obviously the rest are served by subscriber services such as cable or satellite - but note that does not MEAN none of those cable/sat viewers also don't use OTA as well, or that other OTA viewers in nearby markets aren't also watching say, Dayton stations) , and the percentage of OTA only households.

Dayton market is shown on page 3 of appendix A, as DMA market #59, having 511,770 total TV households, and 15.7 % or 80,348 OTA only households. There are of course more folks than that watching the station OTA who also have cable/sat. *I* use dish network, for instance, but I do not subscribe to locals via the satellite, instead my primary means of watching TV is via OTA, even though I'm not "counted" in the above 80K OTA only household figure. Actually, I'm considered as in Cincinnati DMA, anyway.

I think that list is very interesting concerning the wide difference in % of OTA Only viewers in diffeerent markets. It varies per market between 6% and 40% OTA Only viewers, with Dayton at 15.7% OTA Only households being very much near the the national average of 16.1% OTA only Households(approx 17 Million Households) ..... Compare that with the ~20% of poll respondants in the 2006 AVSforum STB/Receiver poll choosing MOSTLY using a OTA only HD receiver ..

Who knows, though, I have yet to see a study of Dayton's viewing shares (cable, OTA, DBS, BUD, etc.). I can only go by what I see, and in my neighborhood (Kettering) there are very few DBS dishes, BUD, or OTA outdoor antennas, but I do see on the side of most houses a box that strongly resembles the TWC box on the side of my house.

I've just moved into an older house that has one of those boxes on it. The splitter's in there and then separate lines run out to each jack on the house. I assume those boxes date back to the days when one had to pay extra to attach additional TV's to the cable. The cable is old crummy RG-59 so a future project of mine will be to remove it and run RG-6 inside the house to a central structured wiring panel instead.

Another factor in older neighborhoods that affects DBS usage vs. cable is trees. I have big trees on my lot, and it sure looks like they'd get in the way of the DBS signal path. There's an old DirecTV dish on top of the house, but I was never in direct contact with the seller so I didn't get to ask if it worked.

TW will put those boxes on if they have to do *any* sort of work related to their lines. They added one to my house when I got RR. Before, the splitter was just left exposed !

As for satellite and trees, I took a picture of my LOS and it's not good. It's a pretty narrow gap between the neighbors house and a tree in his backyard. As that tree continues to grow, my LOS decreases !! In general though, on a north-south street, most houses have their dishes on their front porch roof if the house is on the east side of the street and on the back porch roof if the home is on the west side of the street.

Trees, and in some cases Terrain+trees can certainly be an issue for DBS dish placement.

However, many folks seem to be under the impression that how it "looks like" the dish is pointed, concerning Azimuth(vertically speaking) is "directly" involved. It isn't. The signals come in at a appreciably higher angle than that at this latitude. The farther North you get however, the farther away from tall trees in the direction of the birds the dish will need to be. In other words, although it may look like many of the dishes you may see are pointed right into the trees, in this area, they aren't.

In order to find a good spot for my dish concerning nearby tall trees, what I did was use a equatorial mount from a telescope and it's azimuth/elevation indicators(given the mount is properly level and azimuth indicator of "0"=very near posistion of North star) along with info on the satellites actual posistions given my location --- azimuth+elevation - Right acension+declination coordinates for the birds along with using "local siderial time" and the "setting circles" on my telescope mount is another option I could have used.

Luckily, without the "tube" that is the actual telescope, looking through the portion of the mount where the telescope "tube" normally is placed happens to show you about a 10~15 degree "portion" of the sky, which is about what I needed to see was clear for LOS to the 110+119 dish network birds I'm using. the spot Happens to be on the West side of my house, and only requires a max of 40FT coax run to the receivers. Bit of trivia, your fist viewed at arm's length=about 5 degrees of sky. Your thumb at arm's length is about 1 degree, and should completely cover a full moon(just barely) ....

Because of nearby tall trees+terrain, I would have more difficulty where dish placement is concerned if I needed to "see" some of the other sat posistions(such as 61.5 or 148) that are used for some of the DBS birds.

I'm aware that the angle that the dish is "looking" is much higher than it appears. Most people think it's more or less parallel with the LNB when it's not. Around 15' higher, as you said, is the number I was familiar with too. If I were to use the "look" direction without the 15' added, my dish was aimed right at the neighbor's 1st story (back porch) roof.

What would be nice is to get a picture of a dish mounted on the side of a house in my neighorhood. The house next door is maybe 6' away and most people would NEVER believe that the dish would work. Of course, I can't go taking pictures like that without someone asking questions.... :D

Has anyone seen this antenna, Radio Shack dual bow-tie, see attached pic (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&pg=1&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032204&y=8&categoryId=2032204&kw=antenna&kwCatId=2032057&x=12&s=A-StorePrice-RSK&parentPage=search,), in any local Radio Shacks ?? Their store inventory check says none for my zip code (not sure how far out they go from there) and a few nearby zip codes I know ??

Failing that, I'm likely to try something like these:

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Terk-Indoor-Antenna-TV2-/sem/rpsm/oid/54452/catOid/-15607/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=4780115&type=product&productCategoryId=cat08082&id=1051806247493

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2153141

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2625059

I'm only 5.x miles from the tower "farm" so I will take my chances with these small, low-cost ones first. Given that people in Xenia pick them up with similar ones, I think I'll be okay.

Back to the Radio Shack antenna, if I were to locate one, that won't go over well with my wife if it's visible ! Can it be covered with anything ?? Then again, I can certainly hide it behind my TV.

Back to the Radio Shack antenna, if I were to locate one, that won't go over well with my wife if it's visible ! Can it be covered with anything ?? Then again, I can certainly hide it behind my TV.

Yeah, you might be able to "hide it" or cover it and it still work well, where you put it depends more upon where a good "hot spot" for reception is. On top of, or near TV often does not turn out to be a good spot for indoor antenna. Near a window facing towers often is. For instance, sitting behind a piece of furniture near a wall facing the towers might work, or even in a closet, it just depends if it's in one of those "hot spots" or not. You'll have to find that out by moving the antenna around.

That antenna(or the "Silver sensor"), or unamplified version of Terk HDTVi(the HDTVa being the amplified version I believe, from larrysano's info) would be the best choices I know of performance wise for an "indoor" type antenna.

I probably wouldn't mess with any of the others you provided links to - because -- While those might work for you as well, thing is there is a less expensive, but a bit better UHF antenna available than the UHF antennas on thosse things -- which are a UHF loop which is "stuck" to it's base - being able to "swivel" those things can help a bit too, but.... Also, all the Dayton digital(HD) stations transmit on UHF(as current info indicates will very likely be the case after analog shut off as well), and at your distance you might not even necesarily need VHF "rabbit ears" for so-so reception of analog 2+7.

The less expensive UHF antenna I'm referring to which I'd think about if I were you is this "UHF outline bowtie Antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&cp=&fbn=Price%2FUnder+%243.99&fbc=1&fr=StorePrice%2FRSK%2F00000000%2F00000399&kw=indoor+uhf+antenna&parentPage=search) from Radio shack. What it actually is, is a UHF folded dipole.

When I tried one of these(just for the heck of it) With it "mounted" with a "twist tie" and hidden between blinds+drapes in a 2nd story window facing the towers(south window for Cincinnati - ~32miles, East window for Dayton - 12~14 miles from my location), I noticed I can receive solid reception of most of the digital stations in the area with it - exceptions being WSTR-DT Cincy(low power currently), WCVN-DT in N KY(farther away, shorter broadcast tower - I need a outdoor antenna for it, and it's an important station for us), and WCPO-DT Cincinnati(I need to use a VHF/UHF joiner+add VHF "rabbit ears" for it). YMMV of course.

I didn't actually pay $4 for it, mine came with some TV I bought in the 80's when they actually used to include simple, decent but effective VHF AND UHF antennas with small TV's.

Note that this $4 antenna is a "better" antenna on UHF than the UHF sections of all the antennas in your links, except of course the RS DBT - "double bow tie --the radio shack antenna in your links now called the HDTV dual antenna or whatever is is they are calling it now .....

If you've ever used antennas for analog OTA, your probably already familar with this sort of thing, but just in case not --- With either the DBT, or the "outline bow tie" which come with a bit of 300 ohm twinlead attached .... You'll also need a 300ohm~75 ohm Matching transformer (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103912&cp=2032057&fbn=Price%2FUnder+%243.99&f=Taxonomy%2FRSK%2F2032057&fbc=1&categoryId=2032057&fr=StorePrice%2FRSK%2F00000000%2F00000399&kwCatId=2032057&kw=matching+transformer&parentPage=search) to match the 300ohm impedance of antenna(and/or the short piece of balanced 300ohm twinlead that comes with those antennas) to 75 ohm unbalanced Coax or the 75ohm input on your Receiver.

The one in the link has a female 75 ohm connector on it, so you'd also need at least a short bit of coax with male F connectors on each end to go between the matching transformer+TV. Often, you'll get such a "patch cord" about 3~6' long when you buy various equipment(such as VCR's, Satellite reciever's/etc), so you've probably got one lying around some where. If not, you should be able to find one of these of various lengths for a few bucks at meijer, target/walmart/etc in the a/v accessories racks. I'd get one long enough so you can move the antenna around quite a bit, to find that "sweet spot" for reception you may be looking for, especially to the spots you're thinking you might want to "hide" the antenna.

If you get the matching transformer in link above, You'd also need to cut off the clips, strip a little wire and "twist together" the wires from the twinlead that comes with the antenna to the 300 Ohm terminals(wires) on the balun(they'll probably be clips on it instead of bare wire), and then tape them up good with electrical tape so the two wires won't "touch" one another. Probably also best to cut off most of the twinlead coming from antenna, and put the matching transformer as close to antenna and use coax for the feedline instead. Twinlead is very low loss(loses much less signal than coax, well unless the twinlead is outside+is uninsulated+gets wet) but it is also prone to very easily picking up interference. The old trick of putting a full twist in the twinlead every foot or so can help greatly with that, however.

Can't find it on the RS site currently, but they should also have a 300ohm~75 ohm matching transformer that has a Male 75Ohm connector on one end, and 2 screws for the 300 ohm input from the antenna(twinlead). I n which case you could use the twinlead that comes with antenna for your feedline(if it's long enough to reach to where you want to put the antenna), and the Male 75ohm F connector on it would hook up directly to the input on the receiver. That would be the "simplest" solution, and perhaps a few $ less expensive, but it's not necessarily the best one. You might want to try that first, however, especially as You might have one of these lying around somewhere as well. If not, and if RS doesn't have it, last time I looked, you can find these stores such as meijer/walmart/etc in their "video accessories" rack ...

OF course, again, I can't stress enough that it usually is a good idea to have some "extra" feedline handy((and again it's often best to use coax(which is shielded) for the feedline as much of it as possible, and keep 300ohm twinlead as short as possible because of it's great propensity to pick up "interference", including "electrical noise" from your household wiring and nearby appliacnes -- including the TV) , as right near the TV may not be the best place to put the antenna as far as reception goes .... The more you can move the antenna around to find a "sweet spot" for reception, the better.

What I actually did for my "experimental" "outline bowtie" was to solder the leads from a balun(matching tranformer) right to the antenna in the appropriate place, then use coax to the TV(actually I had a VHF/UHF joiner for combining it with the VHF rabbit ears for WCPO-DT in line, as well as distribution amp in line as it was a long coax run to the TV), but having just a bit of twinlead between the antenna+matching transformer, and "splicing" the wires together(for the 300ohm twinlead and terminals) won't anything hurt any.

Probably More than you wanted to know, or includes a lot of stuff you already know, but hope some of that helps,

Yeah, you might be able to "hide it" or cover it and it still works well... The ruling has just been made: "That ain't going to be visible. HD isn't that important."
On top of, or near TV usually does not turn out to be a good spot for antenna. Near a window facing towers often is. I figure the TV itself is a relatively huge electrical interference generator itself and behind my TV puts things in this order: Broadcast towers -- TV -- antenna. Absolute worst case, I realize.
That antenna(or the "Silver sensor), or unamplified version of Terk HDTVi would be the best choices I know of performance wise for an "indoor" type antenna. Is that antenna available anywhere else ? I know RS often just re-labels products.
I probably wouldn't mess with any of the others you provided links to - because -- While those might work for you as well, thing is there is less expensive, but a bit better UHF antenna available than the UHF antennas on thosse things -- which are a UHF loop which is "stuck" to it's base - being able to "swivel" those things can help a bit too, but.... [quote] Okay, that confused the hell out of me.... I've no idea if you're saying they're good or bad or "it depends on your location". For $10, and being locally purchased, returning them isn't a big deal.
[quote] Also, all the Dayton digital(HD) stations transmit on UHF, and at your distance you might not even necesarily need VHF "rabbit ears" for so-so reception of analog 2+7. Not getting rid of cable so I'm not worried about the need for VHF.
The less expensive UHF antenna I'm referring to which I'd think about if I were you is this "UHF outline bowtie Antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&cp=&fbn=Price%2FUnder+%243.99&fbc=1&fr=StorePrice%2FRSK%2F00000000%2F00000399&kw=indoor+uhf+antenna&parentPage=search) from Radio shack.

Note that this $4 antenna is a "better" antenna on UHF than the UHF sections of all the antennas in your links For $4, I'll definitely pick that one up to try.
Can't find it on the RS site currently, but they should also have a 300ohm~75 ohm matching transformer that has a Male 75Ohm connector on one end you could hook directly to the input on the receiver, and 2 screws for the 300 ohm input from the antenna(twinlead). You might have one of these lying around somewhere as well Yes, I do. On this page, http://www.buyreliant.com/pfan/splitters_switches_baluns.htm, I have the "TVBLNQ2" item. It's a really cheap, hollow-feeling, made in China item that came with a VHF antenna I've got.
OF course, usually is a good idea to have some "extra" feedline handy(and it's best to use coax for the feedline as much of it as possible, and keep 300ohm twinlead as short as possible), as right near the TV may not be the best place to put the antenna as far as reception goes .... The more you can move the antenna around to find a "sweet spot" for reception, the better. Here, I'm not sure how to connect that "adapter" to a piece of coax. All the pieces of coax I've got have female connectors and I don't think I've ever seen a piece that would adapt. Problem with that "TVBLNQ2" item is it's just a stamped cylinder that slips over the RF (male) jack. It's just not that secure.

Just tried one of these, http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=091-455, slipping into the 75-300 adapter and it's not as bad as I thought. I hate to rig it up with tape to keep it secure.... but I might.... :)

1st off, FWIW, I did update my post above a bit with more info+to improve grammar/etc, probably since you read it ...

Is that antenna available anywhere else ?


IF you are referring to RS DBT, No, not that I'm aware of, other than perhaps Ebay/etc. I checked my Zip code(if in stock, it usually it shows stuff in stock at several RS stores in Middletown, Springboro and Dayton), no dice. Says it's out of stock online store as well.

Antennasdirect does have an antenna which is extremely similiar in design -- It actually probably offers a tad better performance than the RS DBT -- It's The DB2 -- It's also a 2 bay bowtie, and It says in their info it can be used as a "indoor antenna", but I don't think it actually comes with a stand, or the piece of mast shown in the picture at link below, but I don't know. It is more expensive than the DBT as well, but probably does come with the 300ohm~75ohm matching transformer included<g> --- Think www.solidsignal.com may carry it as well :

http://www.antennasdirect.com/DB2_Indoor_antenna.html

At one time, I'd seen a Silver Sensor at Best Buy for $20, but don't know if they carry those anymore or not.


.
Yes, I do. On this page, http://www.buyreliant.com/pfan/splitters_switches_baluns.htm, I have the "TVBLNQ2" item. It's a really cheap, hollow-feeling, made in China item that came with a VHF antenna I've got.
.

All those matching transformers are "ferrite core" baluns. Basically little more than a small ferrite core with copper wire coiled around it is inside that "hollow shell". Hard to say, but as far as performance goes, one that costs $2 might perform better than one that costs $5, or even $9, so there's little reason to think about getting a "more expensive" one, just because it "might" be better. Some do offer poorer performance on certian frequencies than others do, however.


I'm not sure how to connect that "adapter" to a piece of coax.
.

You could only do that if you had a piece of coax with a female connector on one end(which is very uncommon unless you put one on yourself -- requires soldering/etc) Or, use a "wall plate" connector which has two female "sides" -- Update - such as the "gold F81 w/nut and washer - it should actually "fit" snugly however, maybe one of those pieces aren't quite "perfectly" manufactuered to any specific "tolerances" LOL .... .

The other option would be to buy a matching transformer like the one in link I provided above, or the TVBLN1, or TVBLNW from the page from your link .... That would make for slightly less loss(and potentially the balun could I suppose be a little better) than using the "double sided" female connector(wall plate connector --0- that F81 you are using ...

If you end up with an antenna with several feet of 300ohm twinlead attached -- you could also try it first with your TVBLNQ2 at least in a temporary fashion or If the feedline is long enough to reach where the antenna needs to go, as it might turn out to work just fine, and would be the simplest+least expensive solution and involve the least amount of insertion loss ....


All the pieces of coax I've got have female connectors and I don't think I've ever seen a piece that would adapt. Problem with that "TVBLNQ2" item is it's just a stamped cylinder that slips over the RF (male) jack. It's just not that secure


LoL .. I think you are confusing the male and female "parts" of the connectors a bit ;)

TVBLNQ2 you have has the male "f" connector on it, the RF jack on your TV(receiver/etc) is the female connector. Female connector also on TVBLN1 on your page or on the matching transformer in link I provided rfrom RS, "Male" F connectors are what are on your coax(such as what plugs into your cable box) ....

The "male" connectors are actually called "F" connectors, I'm not sure what the correct terminology is for the female connector involved ...

I was going to say, the "female" is the hole and the "male" is the piece that goes in the hole.... :D Now I know what you're talking about ! A piece of coax, like the type you mention that comes with sat receivers, etc, etc, which I do have, is considered male because of the tiny male "lead" in the center. Receivers and what-not have the external threads with the tiny hole, hence "female", that the lead goes in ! Damn, all these years I had it backwards.

I'll be damned if I can find a Terk or Silver Sensor locally for much under $40.... Amazon has 'em for just over $20, but I really prefer to get something local. Parts Express appears to be the only place with unamplified ones too. All the other local "box stores" are sold out. Any places that I'm not thinking of that would have them ?? Sears hardware stores maybe ??

Well, I've ordered a Terk HDTVi and hope to see it in a few days. I won't be getting the receiver 'til mid-week anyway. I figure that Terk may be more than I need, but won't hurt either.

I bought and placed up the VU-90XR from radio shack today - Far cry from my indoor antenna & Terk 42??? the one that wraps around my dish. Not willing to pay for DirectTV HD yet - just not enough there for the money & the HD DVR is over $500 right now - I will keep my DirectTV DVR & just get my HD channels OTA - Will not be able to record them - but still saving money.

Receiving all the dayton channels in plus all but the WB HD channel.

Even getting a couple cinci HD & analog channels. I do not have a rotor but I did do some testing and was able to rotate and get columbus & cinci channels and some other that I have no idea were they are at.

Finialy got the picture that my 50" Sony WEGA tv needed - Huge Nascar fan so I'm looking forward to Daytona in High Def.

I just watched the rest of Thurs. night Olympics on my HD Tivo (recorded from WDTN OTA). Awful pixalization, and almost 15 minutes of the 4 hours were lost - that is, not recorded because of lack of signal. At one point in the recording, about 10:15 or so, there was just a small NBC logo animated in the middle of the screen, like a screen saver.

This was the night of the high winds. There was pixalization on Wednesday, also, but less.

Did anyone else see it? Is it the fault of my equipment, WDTN or NBC?

Did anyone else see it? Is it the fault of my equipment, WDTN or NBC?

I vote for WDTN.

Every time I flipped to them last night, I got either a commercial or dropouts (video/audio) or pixelization. The wife ended up watching it in analog on the Panny for the same reason. They were still having problems with SD this morning.

Carl

I agree with Carl. It was breaking up like crazy on WDTN. I flipped over to WLWT-DT in Cincy and it was just fine.

Well I sent an email to WDTN, got a reply and sent another - guess what I got...
the exact reply back again :rolleyes:

So here ya go.. I got this from 2 different people there (twice). Best read from bottom up.
------

From: @wdtn.com>
Date: Wednesday, February 15, 2006 8:58 am
Subject: RE: RE: HD on Time Warner

WDTN is working to come to agreement with Time Warner. The negotiations are ongoing and we hope to come to a resolution. All NBC High Definition programming is being broadcast by WDTN-DT on Channel 50, over air. I appreciate you taking the time to contact me and thank you for watching WDTN.

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 8:30 PM
To: WDTN
Subject: Re: RE: HD on Time Warner

Hi Mr. S,

I sent my question to two people at WDTN and strangely I got the exact (word-for-word) response from the other person as well. It is a well worded, much appreciated and kind response.

Can you comment on whether you have a target for getting this resolved?

Also, on the forums word is that WDTN has refused to let TimeWarner rebroadcast the NBC signal and other stations in our area have. Can you confirm or refute this?

Thank you again for taking the time to respond.

Best Regards,

----- Original Message -----

From: <@wdtn.com>
Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 9:18 am
Subject: RE: HD on Time Warner

WDTN is working to come to agreement with Time Warner. The negotiations are ongoing and we hope to come to a resolution. All NBC High Definition programming is being broadcast by WDTN-DT on Channel 50, over air. I appreciate you taking the time to contact me and thank you for watching WDTN.


> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 10:01 PM
> To: @wdtn.com; @wdtn.com
> Subject: HD on Time Warner
>
> Hi guys,
> Any chance we can get NBC in HD on Time Warner? The Olympics
> would look so much better and I understand NBC has night NFL games this next
> year. If I can't get NBC in HD on Time Warner, can you elaborate on why and
> who I might contact to express my interest in this taking place?
> Best Regards,

.... However, again, I also realize the station's are running a business, and I think it may even make sense for them to "charge" the cableco for retransmission rights for HD at this stage of the game ...

Wow - less caffeine Nitewatchman..

Here's the bottomline... NBC/WLWT is on with Cinci Time Warner and all the other major networks/stations in the Dayton market can do it ; Time Warner - WDTN/NBC should be able to.

BTW - I did get an OTA antenna (Terk HDTVa - amplified) it's relatively small and while my wife rolled her eyes over putting it on top of the entertainment center - it's not very big and she hasn't said anything else... (yet).

I get WLWT/NBC just fine (out of Cinci) and won't watch WDTN if I can help it.

Well I sent an email to WDTN, got a reply and sent another - guess what I got...
the exact reply back again


I see nothing wrong with their reply. It includes all the necessary info, as well as accurate informatation on the subject as far as I can tell.

BTW, IMO, (even though there are email addresses listed on WDTN's site), you should really remove the private contact info(the WDTN folks' email addressess.) From your post.


Also, on the forums word is that WDTN has refused to let TimeWarner rebroadcast the NBC signal and other stations in our area have. Can you confirm or refute this?


I didn't see anything wrong with your first message, but concerning your second, I'm surprised they replied to this at all. Even with a "form" letter .....

The bottom line and "word is"(including on THIS forum) WDTN and TW haven't yet been able to come to an agreement for cable carriage of their digital/HD station. You can receive their signal OTA if you so desire. There is no "confirming or refuting" or "refusing" about it.

Gee, now that's surprising, that's exactly what WDTN told you ..... imagine that ....

Looks like you're just trying to stir up trouble, IMO, and IMO, that's certianly not what this forum is all about.


Here's the bottomline... NBC/WLWT is on with Cinci Time Warner and all the other major networks/stations in the Dayton market can do it ; Time Warner - WDTN/NBC should be able to.


Maybe they should, and someday I expect they will.

However, the bottom line is :

#1). The situation with WDTN-DT ironing out an agreement with TW for carriage of their digital/HD station is currently not an uncommon situation in many markets. Including not long ago involving WHIO-DT(CBS HD) and TW WOH in Dayton, and unless something has changed recently, currently Cincinnati+WSTR-DT(WB HD), and again unless they've reached an agreement recently I haven't heard about another nearby example would be Columbus(TW)+WTTE/WSYX(Fox+ABC HD). Do a little looking around on AVSforum, you'll find many other examples of this issue.

#2). WDTN is not obligated, or required in any shape or form to allow cableco's to carry their signal. Now, I expect WDTN does WANT to get their HD on cable in Dayton and that's it's just a matter of ironing out the agreement - I.e. the "details" involving what the station wants/needs out of the deal vs. What the cableco wants/needs out of the deal ...

BTW, if you want TW to carry WDTN-DT, you might want to tell TW about it.

Update:


I get WLWT/NBC just fine (out of Cinci) and won't watch WDTN if I can help it.


How do you know it's WDTN you should be "boycotting" and not TW?

I'm not advocating you should do either, however, If you knew all the details(and it's very apparent you do not, for that matter noone that has posted about this issue here does), it might be the case you might decide it would be TW you should be "boycotting" ....

BTW - I did get an OTA antenna (Terk HDTVa - amplified)

I get WLWT/NBC just fine (out of Cinci) and won't watch WDTN if I can help it. Mind telling me where about you live, i.e. inside Dayton, Beavercreek, Kettering, Springboro, etc ??

WLWT-DT (digital HD) predicted coverage map is here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1024261.html

Terrian is not taken into account, the "fringe" of the coverage area assumes use of an outdoor, directional UHF receiving antenna with gain of 10db(on channel 35 in this case.), mounted 30ft above grouned and 4db loss per 100FT of feedline. YMMV -- could be more, could be less ... All Of Dayton metro area is well within the coverage area, which is similar to coverage area of analog WLWT 5. WDTN coverage area reaches in Northern KY. Dayton/Cincinnati towers are only ~40 miles apart.

Getting the "dropped frames" issue with Zenith HDV420 from WKEF-DT again tonight during ABC HD "CastAway". No such problem from WCPO-DT, ABC HD cincinnati. Haven't checked my other receivers.

If it's the same issue as when it's occured before, when I was in contact with WKEF enginners they had reported it involved a 2:3 pulldown issue, and a setting on their encoder(Harmonic DV400 If I recall correctly) involving "Repeat field Detection". On the previous occasion, they reported that turning off "repeat field detection" fixed the problem.

With what kind of antenna though ?? I found it interesting that he's picking up WLWT with an indoor antenna, amplified though. I doubt that I'll have that kind of luck unless I got a larger, outdoor antenna. Heh, there is an antenna up in my attic, laying down in the insulation. Might have to take a closer look at it someday..... :)

I agree with Carl. It was breaking up like crazy on WDTN. I flipped over to WLWT-DT in Cincy and it was just fine.

Still is, at least when I checked it tonight at ~9pm. WLWT-DT is fine. I've been watching WLWT-DT for HD Olympics. For no particular reason, really although as it turns out looks like there is a good reason(the breakups).

The WDTN-DT OTA signal is fine, so looks like they are having issues with the feed. Don't know if that might involve their sat receiver/dish/etc for the NBC HD feed, or if it could be an issue involving how they are distributing/etc. the signals involving the "controlling" of switching for WDTN from Indy. Don't know How that works enough to speculate. Do know they monitor the "signal" they have for WDTN in the control room at Indy, but obviously they aren't getting that OTA directly from WDTN .... Jim Atkinson had told me at one time(it has been a long time since I've talked to him), when he can he monitors it the OTA signal with a receiver in his office.

In any case, hope they are aware of this issue at WDTN.

With what kind of antenna though ?? I found it interesting that he's picking up WLWT with an indoor antenna, amplified though. I doubt that I'll have that kind of luck unless I got a larger, outdoor antenna. Heh, there is an antenna up in my attic, laying down in the insulation. Might have to take a closer look at it someday..... :)

We had a AVSforum member in Northern Kentucky(Florence) at the very edge of the Dayton stations coverage area who reported good reception of most Dayton stations with antenna in his attic. 1450Khz has also reported at one time here getting good reception of Cincinnati stations from near Fairborn with antenna in his attic. When I lived in Fairborn "way back when", I could pick up a decent signal from WXIX 19 and the Cincinnati VHF stations with a bowtie and "rabbit ears" through a brick wall(mostly, there was a south facing window but the indoor antenna+TV was nowhere near it) on the NORTH side of town.

Your neighbor might be able to pick up the Cincinnati stations fine with rabbit ears, you may need an outdoor antenna, or vice versa. There are many factors involved, and what sort of reception one might get from indoors is really impossible to predict. You'll just have to try it.

Certianly, as a general rule of thumb, outdoor, directional antenna is a good idea, and especially so if you're 40 miles away from the stations you want to receive ....

With what kind of antenna though ?? I found it interesting that he's picking up WLWT with an indoor antenna, amplified though. I doubt that I'll have that kind of luck unless I got a larger, outdoor antenna. Heh, there is an antenna up in my attic, laying down in the insulation. Might have to take a closer look at it someday..... :)

This is what Antenna.org says about my area:

Antenna CallSign Channel Network City State Compass Miles Frqncy
yellow - uhf WPTO-DT 14.2 PBS OXFORD OH 253° 21.5 28
lt green - uhf WKRC-DT 12.1 CBS CINCINNATI OH 205° 37.5 31
lt green - uhf WCET-DT 48.1 PBS CINCINNATI OH 206° 37.4 34
lt green - uhf WXIX-DT 19.1 FOX NEWPORT KY 208° 38.1 29
red - uhf WKEF 22 ABC DAYTON OH 4° 6.5 22
red - uhf WKEF-DT 22.1 ABC DAYTON OH 7° 6.7 51
red - uhf WLWT-DT 5.1 NBC CINCINNATI OH 206° 37.4 35
red - uhf WRGT-DT 45.1 FOX DAYTON OH 7° 6.7 30
red - uhf WPTD-DT 16.2 PBS DAYTON OH 10° 6.5 58
red - uhf WHIO-DT 7.1 CBS DAYTON OH 10° 7.4 41
red - uhf WDTN-DT 2.1 NBC DAYTON OH 7° 6.3 50
red - uhf WBDT-DT 26.1 WB SPRINGFIELD OH 7° 6.7 18
blue - uhf WSTR-DT 64.1 WB CINCINNATI OH 210° 32.6 33
violet - vhf WCPO-DT 9.1 ABC CINCINNATI OH 205° 36.9 10
violet - uhf WKOI-DT 39.1 TBN RICHMOND IN 253° 21.5 39


The strange this is I have the directional antenna pointing at the Dayton antenna's and the strength of WLWT is 92 and WDTN is 84.

I see nothing wrong with their reply. It includes all the necessary info, as well as accurate informatation on the subject as far as I can tell.

....

Again, Wow...

For all I know, the generic response could have been there for years. No disrespect to the reply from WDTN but the fact it was a "form letter" and apparently auto generated doesn't inspire confidence. The fact that they have an auto reply at least means they've gotten the question before (a few times).

If we don't raise/share the issues here - then where. If that's stirring it up - then yes.

Strangely Time Warner doesn't provide any emails on their site. I've tried a few things with their online capabilities and opened a ticket and will call again. I recall asking some time ago and as far as I can remember I got a similar response to what WDTN emailed.

I use all of TW's services as of a few months ago. I don't want to have to switch to OTA if I don't have to and I like the DVR feature. In the scheme of life it's a nit. Now that I have OTA - I'll likely use it more.

WDTN has been using either an automated reply/form-letter or they copy and paste the same message text when they reply. I posted a message from Jim Atkinson about this a long time ago. Later, someone e-mailed him and posted their reply from him and yes, it was the same as mine. It was different than what they're sending today though.

TW's Dayton office has NO e-mail contact info on their website, as you've discovered. TW Cincy does though: customerservice@cinci.rr.com

Contacting TW Dayton will get the same "generic" response though. I've mentioned the lack of WDTN to their CS reps and some know nothing while a few have said "they're working on it".

Anyone watching Discovery HD this morning noticing pixellation, only during somewhat "fast" scenes, i.e. a camera pan ?? In fact, I want to say I've noticed this ever so slightly on other channels, non-HD (National Treasure on either Cinemax or Starz), also and have never really noticed it before.

If we don't raise/share the issues here - then where. If that's stirring it up - then yes.


IMO, Letting us know you would like to see WDTN TW is fine with me, so is sharing info or discussing the issue, or letting us know what you think about it. I'm just saying I don't think this is the place to come to stir up, for instance, a "boycott"/etc. of WDTN (OR TW for that matter).

I also think it's a good idea to "stick" to the facts of the matter. TW+WDTN has yet to reach agreement for cable carriage. That's all there is to it. Anything more is speculation. No particular party involved is necessarily "to blame", and when these agreements are being hammered out, for good reasons the parties involved don't usually disclose all the details involved in their private negotiations to the public. If either party *does* make comments/provide info about it, it might be wise to keep in mind their viewpoint is likely biased ......

For all I know, the generic response could have been there for years. No disrespect to the reply from WDTN but the fact it was a "form letter" and apparently auto generated doesn't inspire confidence. The fact that they have an auto reply at least means they've gotten the question before (a few times).


WDTN has been using either an automated reply/form-letter or they copy and paste the same message text when they reply. I posted a message from Jim Atkinson about this a long time ago. Later, someone e-mailed him and posted their reply from him and yes, it was the same as mine. It was different than what they're sending today though.

TW's Dayton office has NO e-mail contact info on their website, as you've discovered. TW Cincy does though: customerservice@cinci.rr.com

Contacting TW Dayton will get the same "generic" response though. I've mentioned the lack of WDTN to their CS reps and some know nothing while a few have said "they're working on it".

Stations(and cablecos) receive all sorts of correspondance from "the public", They can't answer each message individually. I think all of that "correspondance" they do get+have to handle is one of the things that sometimes makes it difficult for those of us who at times are trying to get through to their engineers when "techncial issues" involving their digital/HD stations arise.

Anyhow, again, seems to me, Atkinsion's earlier responses which have been posted here, as well WDTN's latest "form letter" contains accurate, relevant+ all the necessary info on the matter. Sorry, perhaps I'm missing something but I don't quite understand what the problem is with it .....

Now, if you had received that response about cable carriage if you'd sent a message to them about the technical issues they seem to be having involving "breakups", THEN I could see your point.

I know some may want to know "more" of the details concerning the negotiations between TW+WDTN, but you should realize it's probably usually not wise for the parties involved to release such details to the public(including the media) when they are in private negotiations. This is a negotiation between two private *businessess*, not a debate on the senate floor ...

If TW folks want WDTN-DT/NBC HD on TW cable, seems to me, the relevant thing to do might be for as many folks as possible to contact TW(or maybe WDTN, or - maybe even WDTN's advertisers or NBC/etc.) and tell them that you are *missing* NBC HD/WDTN-DT from TW .... Who knows, If they get, say 5,000~10,000 actual messages like this from folks(actual folks, not form letters "on behalf" of the such and such society), enough of them might get through it might make them think about those negotiation details a bit, but I wouldn't count on it, necessarily ...

that's the important thing here ... if it is important to you Contact THEM and tell THEM what you think. If nothing else, concerning WDTN, your comments should go into the "public file" at the station(I don't know if the cableco's have anything like that or not), which is available for inspection by anyone who wants to see it ....

The strange this is I have the directional antenna pointing at the Dayton antenna's and the strength of WLWT is 92 and WDTN is 84.

Those things in any case that I have seen so far don't actually measure and indicate "signal strength". There may be some exceptions concerning certian receiver model's however. Usually, however its probably best thought of as a " signal quality" reading. Sometimes SNR is involved, but most of the "signal strength" meters on receivers are just looking at bit errors in the datastream, and NOT the actual RF(OTA) signal itself. High readings can result with relatively weak signals, and low readings can result in some cases with very strong signals.

IF you want to find out a little something out about signal strength, see how much added add'l attenuation added in your feedline it takes before you "lose" any given signal. A 2 way splitter = 3.5db attuenuation, RS has a variable attenuator(up to -20db) for about 9 bucks.

At your distance from Dayton, amplified antenna is usually not a good idea. Wouldn't worry about it if everything is working OK, however, an amplfied antenna could be causing things to be "overloaded" by super strong Dayton signals, and it can create "intermodulation distortion" -- in other words "extra noise" which can show up on any channel -- that, or perhaps something with the receiver's AGC circuit might explain the lower "reading" you are getting from WDTN-DT.

WDTN-DT's signal is certianly EXTREMELY strong here, that is certian ... I have to add about 60db extra attenuation in feedline just to get down to *near* threshold levels ...

IMO, Letting us know you would like to see WDTN TW is fine with me, so is sharing info or discussing the issue, or letting us know what you think about it. I'm just saying I don't think this is the place to come to stir up, for instance, a "boycott"/etc. of WDTN (OR TW for that matter).

I also think it's a good idea to "stick" to the facts of the matter. TW+WDTN has yet to reach agreement for cable carriage. That's all there is to it. Anything more is speculation. No particular party involved is necessarily "to blame", and when these agreements are being hammered out, for good reasons the parties involved don't usually disclose all the details involved in their private negotiations to the public. If either party *does* make comments/provide info about it, it might be wise to keep in mind their viewpoint is likely biased ......

Not sure if you are directing this to me or just being general - but you used the word "boycott". I also never said "blame".

All we have is speculation - no facts except we the consumer do not have WDTN HD through Time Warner.

Those things in any case that I have seen so far don't actually measure and indicate "signal strength". ...

IF you want to find out a little something out about signal strength, see how much added add'l attenuation added in your feedline it takes before you "lose" any given signal. A 2 way splitter = 3.5db attuenuation, RS has a variable attenuator(up to -20db) for about 9 bucks.

At your distance from Dayton, amplified antenna is usually not a good idea. Wouldn't worry about it if everything is working OK, ...

Thanks. I tried another amplified antenna previously from Best Buy and took it back the same day. I wonder if what you described was the problem. It had a ring as the antenna. The Terk looks like a bit like an arrow head.

The feature on the JVC actually just says "Antenna Level". It has a number (94 for WLWT) and a colored bar that goes red, yellow, green.

Not sure why the Terk HDTVa is working amplified but my antenna is on the south side of my house on the first floor and points north through my house.

Given the antenna in this position, the JVC P61R1U notes the following Antenna levels:
WLWT is at 93/94
WDTN is 86 to 89
WHIO (D7-1) is 92
WKEF (D22-1) is 77 to 79
WRGT (D45-1) is at 88 to 92
D27-5 is at 92
WXIX (D19-1) is at 88 to 89
WKRC (D12-1) is at bouncing between 71 and 74
(The JVC also sees PBS 14 and 16 and WKOI out of Richmond, IN but that signal bouncing between 0 and 50 w/o me moving the antenna)

Odd that you don't pick up PBS 16 better as they broadcast from the same location as the other Dayton stations. They may not be at full-power or something.... (????).

Not sure if you are directing this to me or just being general - but you used the word "boycott". I also never said "blame". .

Just being general ......

However, You did say you wouldn't watch WDTN if "you could help it".... That does sound like a personal "boycott" to me ...

Not sure why the Terk HDTVa is working amplified but my antenna is on the south side of my house on the first floor and points north through my house.


You've probably already tried this, but you might pick up a few more of the Cincinnati stations if you aim the antennas south. The Terk is quite directional(and will reject more signal or multipath reflections coming in off the SIDE of the antenna than the back of the antenna, although it should "reject" quite a bit of signal coming in from the back as well), however that doesn't mean it can't pick up *any* signal or multipath reflections off the back(or side) side of the antenna as well as the front. If the signal(or multipath reflections) are stronger, obviously the more signal(or multipath refections) it will pick up off the side. Hence why (especially with antennas that don't have excellent directivity), mulitpath can particuarly be an issue for those very close to the towers, and again, especially from indoors.

Furthermore, you would probably acheive better results from Dayton with antenna near a north facing window. In addition to the amplifier potentially causing problems, I expect multipath is probably another major issue. The more "stuff" in between antenna(especially nearby - as EVERYTHING near your antenna becomes somewhat "connected" to it) and the towers, the more likely multipath is to be an issue for you.


Given the antenna in this position, the JVC P61R1U notes the following Antenna levels:
WLWT is at 93/94
WDTN is 86 to 89
WHIO (D7-1) is 92
WKEF (D22-1) is 77 to 79
WRGT (D45-1) is at 88 to 92
D27-5 is at 92
WXIX (D19-1) is at 88 to 89
WKRC (D12-1) is at bouncing between 71 and 74
(The JVC also sees PBS 14 and 16 and WKOI out of Richmond, IN but that signal bouncing between 0 and 50 w/o me moving the antenna)


Note that "D27-5 East" is WRGT-DT(which actually transmits on channel 30), and probably something odd going on with their PSIP recently- perhaps something weird is going on with their "splicer", as "east" would seem to designate some sort of east coast network feed.

I addition to WPTD-DT Dayton(ThinkTV16/PBS HD), You really should be receiving WBDT-DT (WB HD Dayton) as well.

Another hopefully useful tidbit of info you might want to keep in mind .... ... You just can't "disconnect" the power from an "amplified" antenna and expect it to only "turn off" the amplfier with no other ill effects --- IF there are amplfier "circuits" in line but "unpowered", it will atteunate signals GREATLY as compared to using a "non-amplified" version of the antenna.



Odd that you don't pick up PBS 16 better as they broadcast from the same location as the other Dayton stations. They may not be at full-power or something.... (????).

WPTD-DT 58(remaps to virtual channel 16-x) is at full power (250KW ERP, compare to WKEF-DT at 138KW ERP), from nice and high on their tower.

There are sometimes MANY factors which can be involved with getting good reception -- as a couple of examples BOTH Multipath(which is almost allways more problematic of an issue with indoor antenna), and intermod from an "overloaded" amplfier can be Quite frequency(channel) specific ...

The "bouncing around" meter syndrome woodsptw described is often due to multipath issues, but could also very well involve "interference" issues(such as extra "noise" from an overloaded amp/front end of receiver)as well, especially with a amplified antenna being used only 5~7 miles from transmitters ....

Update : An *important* thing to remember is that Mulitpath reflections the receiver CAN'T correct for are seen by the receiver as just extra "noise". And, the stronger the signal is, the stronger the multpath reflections can be, and generally the more difficult it is for the receiver to handle those reflections.

Multipath can be seen directly on screen as "ghosts" from analog stations, and you *can* use analog reception to get an idea of how significant your multipath issues are, especially when the transmitting antennas for the analog+digital station involved are located in close proximity to each other(on same tower/etc, as they are in Dayton) but only to a certian extent, and moreso when the digital+analog stations are transmitting on "channels"(frequencies) quite close to one another as Multipath is often *Very* frequency specific.

What multipath is, is "portions" of the signal arriving at your antenna at slightly different times, because of reflections off nearby buildings/water towers/etc. There are two general "types" of multipath -- "static" multipath, say reflections of the signal from a nearby water tower, and "dynamic" multipath -- Varying "reflections" say due to an aircraft flying in signal path near your house. At this point, the "system" we are using for digital TV+the receiver's out there are much better at handling "static" multipath conditions than "dynamic" multipath. In some cases, even high winds blowing tree limbs around can change the "dynamic multipath conditions" such that in some cases it can cause problems.

Note that trees themselves don't really generally "cause" multipath(they do attenuate the signals very slightly, moreso on upper UHF frequencies ), but the limbs moving around or leaves being on or off trees can *change* the multipath *conditions* concerning for instance, your "RF line of site" signal you're getting ... I don't know, but I suppose the sap moving around in the trees at certian times of year, or certian tree species/etc could "cause" multipath to some certian extent however ...

Add the additional issues involved with having receive antenna indoors as compared to outdoors -- with indoor antenna for instance --- increased multipath is likely, higher VSWR is likely (voltage standing wave ratio - and signals will as a general rule of thumb be attenuated by about -20db), as again everything near antenna(including YOU) becomes "connected" to it) --- and it becomes very easy to understand why an outdoor, directional antenna is usually a good idea in order to "mininize" these issues as much as possible ...

Note also that these issues(multipath, interference issues/etc) are not *specific* to OTA DTV/TV reception, but effect *all* wireless VHF/UHF communications ... However, in order to carry the large amounts of "data" necessary to make the pretty pictures on your screen, TV/DTV signals are wide bandwidth signals(6MHZ wide in fact), which I think is probably one of the important factors involved concerning why in some cases, they(analog TV OR digital for that matter) seem more "finiciky" than is the case with much "narrower" bandwidth FM broadcast - (early FM receivers had problems with multipath as well however), or cell phones, narrow band emergency communications(police/fire/etc), 2 meter Ham FM, etc/etc, all of which only use a small fraction of the RF bandwidth(spectrum) that a TV station does ...

:end update


Anyhoo, If woodsptw moves his antenna to North side of house(direction of Dayton towers from his locations), which may help him out quite a bit with Multipath, however may make things worse from an "overloaded amplifier"/front-end of receiver perspective, as the Dayton signals will probably be atteunated less .... If he wantes to try that, He'll have to just try it and see, though, as of course having the antenna inside attenuates signals greatly as is, and, because of that it's probably less likely the amplifier overloading than would be the case if antenna is outdoors ... however, the amplfiiers they put in "indoor antennas" are generally reported to be quite poor when it comes to "overload" and "noise factor" issues ....

FWIW, I'm not seeing any problems with WDTN-DT this afternoon during HD Daytona 500. Although, I didn't switch from WLWT-DT until later in race.

It's also probably the best HD PQ I've seen from NBC during HD Nascar, from both WDTN-DT or WLWT-DT.

Just being general ......

However, You did say you wouldn't watch WDTN if "you could help it".... That does sound like a personal "boycott" to me ...

After the statements you have made to me in the past about assuming what people are saying, you should not assume that he is leading a campaign against WDTN.

As far as WDTN goes, as I stated last week, I find myself not even going past their analog channel on TWC. I find something in HD to watch instead, as there is plenty of good television in HD at the times I might be interested in watching WDTN (prime time). As a big sports guy, I would watch the Olympics if it were in HD (and I have watched it on UHD), however, since I can't receive WDTN's HD signal I have found myself watching college basketball on ESPNHD instead. This may not be an issue to WDTN yet, but it will be in the long run if they don't come to an agreement, as most people want to use their television to the fullest of its abilities. The only time I have watched WDTN in the past 2 to 3 months was the Daytona 500 on Sunday, as I could not find anything else to watch (I'm not much of a NASCAR fan).

After the statements you have made to me in the past about assuming what people are saying, you should not assume that he is leading a campaign against WDTN.


I am not assuming anything, I am commenting on what he said in his posts, that is all.

Nor am I accusing Woodsptw or anyone else of trying to start such a "boycott"/etc. What I said was(and again, in a "general" way, not directed at woodsptw or anyone else in particular) :


I'm just saying I don't think this is the place to come to stir up, for instance, a "boycott"/etc. of WDTN (OR TW for that matter).


Why did I say that? Because I (me, personally, my opinion no one else's) would like to see this thread be a useful place for folks to come to find info on HDTV matters that pertain to the "Dayton Local HDTV info and reception thread". Certianly, discussion of WDTN+cable carriage fits into that, but If all it turns out to be is a bunch of folks dissing WDTN(or TW for that matter)j or their responses/etc. on the issue because WDTN is not on cable, I don't think that's very useful for folks. And, because I have seen that very sort of thing happen on other threads(sometimes on other forums). And again, that is only my opinion no one elses. I can say something about that here if I want, I think ....

And I am NOT saying that is what has happened here. But, it looked like sort of a "flag" to me when I read a letter sent to WDTN posted here(along with WDTN's more than adequete response IMO) asking them to "confirm or deny" whether or not the "word on the forums" is true that WDTN is "refusing" to allow TW cable carriage of their signal, and then the individual that posted that also makes the comment "I won't watch WDTN if I can help it",(another poster said much the same thing, earlier) .... That just seemed pretty ridiculous to me, since we've known for quite some time that TW+WDTN have been in negotiations on this issue, and pretty much everyone knows stations don't usually just outright "refuse" cable carriage, and cableco's with digital/HD capable systems are probably generally going to want to carry HD from the local "major" network affiliates .....

So, I felt compelled to comment a bit on this issue, that is all.

And again, at this point it's been a fairly common occurance that one or two stations in a market have yet to reach a deal for cable carriage of their digital/HD stations ... Keep in mind for instance WHIO-DT came on air with CBS HD in Fall 2001, and weren't carried on TW until fairly recently(early last year if I recall correctly), WDTN-DT came on air in Jan 2003, at first with ABC HD, and they've been NBC HD since Fall 2004.

...since we've known for quite some time that TW+WDTN have been in negotiations on this issue... Safe to say that there's really no *real* negotiations going on. I've had TW HD for a year and a half and prior to going back to them I inquired with TW about the lack of WDTN. I was told the same thing that "we're working on it". I suspect none of us are corporate lawyer types and can't speculate accurately, but does anyone believe that it takes this long to work out a deal ?? I suspect it's nothing more than them "checking in" with each other every few months to see if one or the other has budged on their stance. Safe to say, they're both stubborn-*sses ! :D

I've had TW HD for a year and a half and prior to going back to them I inquired with TW about the lack of WDTN. I was told the same thing that "we're working on it". I suspect none of us are corporate lawyer types and can't speculate accurately, but does anyone believe that it takes this long to work out a deal ??


It might take until analog shut off, or later, if ever. I personally suspect it will happen by analog shut off(feb 17,2009 as currently scheduled), but again, who knows.

How long did it take WHIO-DT and TW to work out a deal for carriage of WHIO-DT/CBS HD? Judging from when it became available on TW, I think it was About 3 1/2 years or so from the time WHIO-DT came on the air with CBS HD in Fall 2001.

If you search back through this thread you'll find folks asking the same questions over those several years before WHIO-DT showed up on Dayton cable, and not surprisingly, those folks were getting the same sorts of answers from WHIO+TW about WHIO+TW carriage .....

This is all personal opinion here, but I expect to see their HD feed on TWC by the time the NFL starts in the fall. WDTN will get a multitude of complaints (especially if the Bengals play in any Sunday night games, which I fully expect) if people can't watch the HD football games on NBC, but can on the other networks. I would imagine that both the NFL and NBC will be pushing the affiliates to get their HD feeds on to the local cable systems.

Keep in mind for instance WHIO-DT came on air with CBS HD in Fall 2001, and weren't carried on TW until fairly recently(early last year if I recall correctly)

TWC actually started carriage late Jan '04 (In time for the superbowl that year)

Thanks for the correction browerjs. I get my "years" mixed up sometimes, being it's early in 2006 still, I sometimes think it's still 2005 ...


WDTN will get a multitude of complaints (especially if the Bengals play in any Sunday night games, which I fully expect) if people can't watch the HD football games on NBC, but can on the other networks.


First off, People can watch NBC HD from WDTN-DT OVER THE AIR, they don't NEED cable. WDTN+NBC is a over-the-air broadcaster, not a "cable channel" like TNT/etc.

Secondly, if it isn't straightened out by then, some folks might contact WDTN(and WDTN can tell them they can receive the signal over the air, that is their business after all, they are OTA broadcasters), but most will probably contact the cableco with their "multitude" of complaints/requests for WDTN-DT/NBC HD to be carried on their system. Would probably even be best if BOTH WDTN+TW received those complaints/requests .....

This is all personal opinion here, but I expect to see their HD feed on TWC by the time the NFL starts in the fall. WDTN will get a multitude of complaints (especially if the Bengals play in any Sunday night games, which I fully expect) if people can't watch the HD football games on NBC, but can on the other networks. I would imagine that both the NFL and NBC will be pushing the affiliates to get their HD feeds on to the local cable systems.

Based on Sunday night's ratings of the Olympics: 19.39 million viewers http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=440744

Compared to the average of MNF (which would be the comparable game to 2006 SNF game)in the '04 season (I couldn't find the 05 season and didn't look to hard, but based on the quality of games it probably declined): 16.4 million viewers http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63538-2005Apr18.html

It seems that the viewership for the Olympics is greater then the National Primetime NFL game. Also the SNF game will be going up against DH and GA, so I don't see how viewership goes up. Also remember that WDTN didn't have HD carriage on TWC when they were ABC and broadcasting MNF.

I'm all for the carriage on TWC for the ability to use the DVR with it, but i really don't see it happening any time soon. I think there will be a larger outcry for the NFL network on TWC then WDTN-DT, come football season.

I'm all for the carriage on TWC for the ability to use the DVR with it, but i really don't see it happening any time soon.

It's too bad cableco's aren't/haven't been including OTA ATSC receivers in their STB's(including DVR's) like is the case with DBS.

First off, People can watch NBC HD from WDTN-DT OVER THE AIR, they don't NEED cable. WDTN+NBC is a over-the-air broadcaster, not a "cable channel" like TNT/etc.

Hmmm... do you think you haven't made the clear by now? As I have said before, I find the poll on this site to be very unrealistic, as it is a poll of the top end of HDTV viewers. Most people are not going to be willing to buy an OTA ATSC tuner (and a majority do not have a satellite STB or built in ATSC tuner) for $100 to pick up WDTN-DT (most don't care about getting the Cincinnati or Columbus stations if they have the Dayton affiliate).

Based on Sunday night's ratings of the Olympics: 19.39 million viewers http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=440744

Compared to the average of MNF (which would be the comparable game to 2006 SNF game)in the '04 season (I couldn't find the 05 season and didn't look to hard, but based on the quality of games it probably declined): 16.4 million viewers http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...-2005Apr18.html

It seems that the viewership for the Olympics is greater then the National Primetime NFL game. Also the SNF game will be going up against DH and GA, so I don't see how viewership goes up. Also remember that WDTN didn't have HD carriage on TWC when they were ABC and broadcasting MNF.

I'm all for the carriage on TWC for the ability to use the DVR with it, but i really don't see it happening any time soon. I think there will be a larger outcry for the NFL network on TWC then WDTN-DT, come football season.

Fair point, and I agree, there will be a bigger outcry for NFL Network (because WDTN has their SD feed on the system already). I do think their HD audience is MUCH larger than it was 2 years ago when they last broadcasted a NFL game, however. You must also remember that only the first 8 games are scheduled for Sunday night this coming season, after that they will have their choice (although there is a veto for Fox and CBS for certain games) of what game to show, likely making the ratings higher next season.

In my opinion (and from what I've read, most of the big HDTV press), the NFL has been the driving force behind HDTV purchases over the last 3-5 years. Due to this, I think there will be some backlash if they don't have it on their largest local distributer (yes, Nitewatchman, I believe that more people get their TV signal through cable than OTA or satellite in the Dayton metro area) before their first game.

I realize that the HD population is not that large, but it is still a fair number of homes in the region. I would flip by the Monday night games just because it was in HD (even when I didn't care about the game), without it being in HD I will not flip by the channel unless I care about who is involved in the game (i.e. the Bengals or the results effect the Bengals). I truly believe that there will be a lot more people like me down the road when HDTV gets a larger foothold, causing lower ratings for the local station, thereby getting them lower advertising revenues.

It's too bad cableco's aren't/haven't been including OTA ATSC receivers in their STB's(including DVR's) like is the case with DBS.

That is true, I wish TWC included an ATSC tuner in their STB. The situation is totally different in my opinion, however.

DBS did not (until recently) send the local HD signal through their satellites (and very few DMA's get it up to this point). In order to compete in the HD market they had to include the ATSC tuner, otherwise their customers could not get the HD feed and would switch to cable.

Well, folks,(and this is not "directed" at anyone personally) I see this thread is becoming just a waste of my time again. Seems like If I'm going to particpate in this thread, I'm just going to have to ignore much of the nonsense(IMO) that is posted here.

Hmmm... do you think you haven't made the clear by now?
.

Evidently not.


As I have said before, I find the poll on this site to be very unrealistic, as it is a poll of the top end of HDTV viewers. Most people are not going to be willing to buy an OTA ATSC tuner (and a majority do not have a satellite STB or built in ATSC tuner) for $100 to pick up WDTN-DT .

I didn't say a Da*n thing about the poll, or how much receiver's cost/etc, or what the "majority" of HD viewers in Dayton area are using. And, you don't know what the "majority" of HD viewers in Dayton market are using for HD any more than I do.

All I said was people don't NEED cable to receive WDTN-DT, and I also said that WDTN-DT and NBC network is "in business" as a OTA broadcaster, not a Cablenet. And that's exactly what WDTN-DT can tell anyone who complains about their signal not being on cable - that they can receive the signal OTA, for free("free" excluding any necessary hardware costs). You have to PAY monthly subscription costs for cable(you don't with OTA), and usually, from what I hear with digital cable a couple of months easily add up to $100 or so. If NBC HD is less important to you than what you pay for a few months or so of cable, then I'd speculate in most cases you'll get along fine with WDTN analog SD on cable until TW+WDTN-DT reach an agreement for HD carriage.

I said nothing about "how many" people are going to actually USE OTA to receive HD from WDTN-DT, all I said was that(in the vast majority of cases) people don't NEED cable to do it.

How important is it for WDTN NOW to have their HD signal on cable? IMO, probably not very important in a "bottom line" business sense - and that IS what is most important to both the station+cableco. Now, I expect that will likely change(concerning WDTN's DIGITAL signal, but not necessarily HD) by the time analog shut off occurs.

Also keep in mind, more and more, per FCC ATSC tuner mandate, TV's will(should anyway) INCLUDE OTA DTV tuners IN them. And, more and more people won't NEED to buy an extra box to use the OTA DTV/HD, they'll just need to add antenna. Just like now, EVERY TV(besides some PC montiors or front projectors being used for "TV") has a NTSC tuner and can receive OTA NTSC signals.


DBS did not (until recently) send the local HD signal through their satellites (and very few DMA's get it up to this point). In order to compete in the HD market they had to include the ATSC tuner, otherwise their customers could not get the HD feed and would switch to cable.
.

Cable customers can't get the HD feed via cable from network affiliates(like WDTN-DT) which haven't yet been able to reach an agreement for cable carriage. Which at this time, it isn't uncommon in a market for 1 or 2 stations to have not yet reached an agreement for HD carriage with the cableco. That's one reason why I think it would have/would be a good idea for cableco's to include ATSC receivers in their boxes. Another is because it would have helped to further along the DTV transistion. And, Ironically, it might have even "helped" the cableco's bargining posistion a bit when it came to working out deals with the station for cable carriage.

I think some of the people involved in this discussion need a new hobby as they're taking this one WAY too seriously.

In order for AVSforum to be most useful and fun for that matter ---- (IMO) I actually think some people should, perhaps, expend a little more effort in researching the issues they are interested in, and learn a little more about the subjects they are posting about before posting.

Certianly, there is no such thing as a stupid question here ---- and, although the "search" function is still extremely useful -- it's certianly the case there are so many posts here these days it can at times be difficult and time consuming to find the accurate info, or the "relevant" discussion you are looking for ...

However I have seen many(IMO) stupid(not to mention just plain wrong in many cases) statements made on this forum(I'm talking about the entire forum, not necessarily just in this thread), and it seems its just becoming more and more prevalent(again IMO) - which of course even makes it MORE difficult to find the accurate info or "relevant discussion" you're looking for ....

Here's a excellent, current thread in programming area which I think demonstrates just how useful AVSforum can be as a resource of good information. Unfortuently, however it seems to me threads such as this are fewer and farther between these days compared to the case several years ago :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7076870&&#post7076870

Well, folks,(and this is not "directed" at anyone personally) I see this thread is becoming just a waste of my time again. Seems like If I'm going to particpate in this thread, I'm just going to have to ignore much of the nonsense(IMO) that is posted here.

All I said was people don't NEED cable to receive WDTN-DT, and I also said that WDTN-DT and NBC network is "in business" as a OTA broadcaster, not a Cablenet.

Nitewatchman - you are super sharp technically. In trying to hold your position you are compounding the problem with the thread you are concerned about. Just drop it - it's not all about you.

IMHO WDTN gets paid by advertisers. It has nothing to do with being a Cablenet. I really don't care - I want what I want and that's WDTN in HD over Time Warner. That's the point. Enough said.

Just drop it - it's not all about you.
.

Huh? There is *nothing* personal about any of this. Of course It has nothing to do with *me*, or for that matter, *you* personally. [update] : Now, that doesn't necessarily mean I won't respond in an appropriate fashion if I feel it necessary if folks take "issue" with some of my comments. [end update]

I *do* try to provide accurate and hopefully useful info for folks. Certianly everyone makes mistakes, including me - I certianly more than welcome any corrections, and allways welcome others thoughts+comments concerning my posts. We are often dealing with discussion of "complicated" issues, and there is often much more to any certian issue than may meet the eye ....

I've seen time and time again that folks can apparently become easily *confused* by this stuff, especially when inaccurate or misleading info is posted ....Heck, even the "accurate" info can be confusing at times .... . That's what I'm concerned about as I would like to see this thread continue to be a useful+informative place for folks to come for info about HDTV and "reception" issues involving Dayton area.


I want what I want and that's WDTN in HD over Time Warner. That's the point. Enough said.

EXACTLY! *Of course* you do if you're a TW HD subscriber! I got your "point" on this the first time you posted anything about it. And, I have no problem with you telling us this although I think it is pretty much a given that we pretty much know if you subscribe to TW, you want all the HD from the local affiliates.

So, the important thing to do is also tell WDTN+TW what you want(I realize you already have), and maybe even WDTN's advertisers if you are so inclined.

Preliminary results with my Terk HDTVi..... I've read that how analog stations are picked up can give some indication as to how the digitals will come in. Whether that's true or not, I'm getting different and better results with this Terk. It appears not to make a difference whether the "fins" are mounted horizontally or vertically though.

I pick up 2 and 7 about the same as I've always gotten with rabbit ears. The Terk has rabbit ears (the telescoping type), which are for VHF, correct ?? Channels 14 and above are UHF, correct ?? That's where the "fins" are utililized with the Terk. There, I get 16, 22, 26, and 45 really, really clear. If I move the antenna around *slightly*, I pick up channel 40. I also get channel 43, though it's too snowy to watch.

This is with the antenna in my upstairs bedroom, in the northeast corner of my house, going through multiple walls and aluminum siding. I'll try it downstairs on the first floor where my HDTV is, which is also in a west room.

Preliminary results with my Terk HDTVi..... I've read that how analog stations are picked up can give some indication as to how the digitals will come in.


It can, but again, much depends upon circumstances involved. Multipath for instance can be very frequency specific, and just because you aren't getting Ghosts on say, analog VHF WHIO channel 7, doesn't mean you won't have multipath issues on digital channel 41, where WHIO-DT(HD) transmits. Same thing with say, Analog 16 and digital (WPTD-DT) 58, or analog WDTN 2, Digital WDTN-DT 50.

I covered this in more detail yesterday in the following post :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7162681&&#post7162681


The Terk has rabbit ears (the telescoping type), which are for VHF, correct ?? Channels 14 and above are UHF, correct ??


Yes.


There, I get 16, 22, 26, and 45 really, really clear. If I move the antenna around *slightly*, I pick up channel 40. I also get channel 43, though it's too snowy to watch.

This is with the antenna in my upstairs bedroom, in the northeast corner of my house, going through multiple walls and aluminum siding. I'll try it downstairs on the first floor where my HDTV is, which is also in a west room.


If 16, 22,26 and 45 are clear and free of ghosts where you are going to put the antenna for use with your HD receiver, there are no guarentees but I'd say there's a good chance you may not have too much difficultly posistioning the antenna for good OTA HD reception.

However, there *is* a chance you might still run into difficulties, as again, there are many factors which can effect reception, some of which are "frequency specific" -- At your distance, mostly probably because of the Multipath thing, and it's "frequency specific" nature.

While it shouldn't be a problem from your distance, nevertheless you are attenuating signals greatly with the antenna indoors, which may cause an issue for you concerning WBDT-DT 18 - which is running significantly less power than the other dayton digital stations - while they are at "full power", their full power allocation(35KW ERP) from FCC during transistion is much less than most stations. I expect that may be partly because WBDT-DT improved their analog's coverage area after the DTV table of allotments for the transistion were put in place, and also perhaps because of a crowded spectrum, and relatively nearby co-channel stations such as WLEX 18 Lexington, and WHIZ 18 Zanesville.

If you can improve your reception of analog WRCX-LP 40(transmits from Dayton antenna farm) as much as possible, it might help you out for the Dayton digital stations as well. The Dayton Digital/HD stations transmit on UHF channels(corresponding analog station channel in parentheses) : 18(26), 30(45), 41(7), 50(2), 51(22) and 58(16).

WKOI Channel 43 transmits from a tower between Oxford and Trenton, Ohio. It's digital station transmits on channel 39.

If you can improve your reception of analog WRCX-LP 40(transmits from Dayton antenna farm) as much as possible, it might help you out for the Dayton digital stations as well. The Dayton Digital/HD stations transmit on UHF channels(corresponding analog station channel in parentheses) : 18(26), 30(45), 41(7), 50(2), 51(22) and 58(16). What's the significance of channel 40 ?? Does multipath not affect analog frequencies ??

I realize nothing's a guarantee. My thought was that this antenna made a marked improvement in reception of analog stations over what I've seen with an antenna previously so I've got hopes that it bodes well for the digital side of things.

Does anyone know when WDTN-DT/NBC HD will be carried on TW cable?

JK - HA HA HA

What's the significance of channel 40 ??


Only significance is that WRCX-LP 40 is a low power station, therefore the more signal(less snow) you can get from it, It's fairly likely the more signal you'll get from the digital stations since they all transmit from the same antenna farm. HOWEVER -- With WHIO-DT transmitting a powerful signal right next door on channel 41, some of the "snow" you're getting may actually be coming from WHIO-DT, and due to poor selectivity of many NTSC tuners in consumer equipment. If so, adjacent channel "slop" from WHIO-DT will probably "sort of" look like "big" horizontal snow ....

You probably can't use WRCX-LP 40 to tell you much about multipath(which casues ghosting on analog stations), as I believe the antenna is much lower, and it's not located on WHIO's tower(which is the farthest north of the bunch). If it WERE on WHIO's tower however, and transmitting from nearly the same height as WHIO-DT's transmitting antenna, it might be a good indicator of what the multipath situation is like for WHIO-DT, right next door on 41.


Does multipath not affect analog frequencies ??


I think you meant "analog stations". Frequencies aren't "analog or digital", and the same frequencies are used for digital stations as are used for analog -- Ch 2-6(54~88MHZ), ch 7-13(174~216MHZ) and ch 14~69(470~806MHZ) --- you just can't have a digital+analog station on the SAME channel(6MHZ wide range of frequendcies) in the same area, or they would interfere with each other.

Yes, multipath affects analog stations as well as Digital stations, multipath can be seen directly on screen as "ghosts" with analog TV. Also, actually, the OTA *signal* used for Digital TV is not really "digital", either. Only the information contained within that signal is digital. The signal is modulated differently, but otherwise, from a "reception" and "physics" perspective it works the same way, and the same reception issues are involved(such as multipath) with either analog or digital OTA .... RF is R ..., and, for instance there is no such thing as a "HDTV antenna" other than from a "marketing" perspective .... With digital, If the issues are significant enough to cause problems(such as "dropouts") You just "experience" these issues a little differently with a digital TV receiver than is the case with analog.


My thought was that this antenna made a marked improvement in reception of analog stations over what I've seen with an antenna previously so I've got hopes that it bodes well for the digital side of things.

Certianly, and I think that's a very good idea, and again, since the Dayton UHF full service("high power") analogs are clear, and I assume relatively free of ghosts - i'd say chances are good that it should bode well for digital -- Just wanted to point out that nothing is guarenteed just because say WRGT 45 is "ghost(multipath) free", it doesn't mean WRGT-DT channel 30 is "multipath free", or that you wouldn't see a lot of ghosts on 30 if the analog station was transmitting there ... As Multipath can at times be *very* frequency specific ....

Especially if you understand the "frequency specific" nature of multipath/etc, Analog stations(while they are still on air, and especially when they are broadcasting from the same towers as their digital counterparts) can also be a good tool to diagnose digital reception issues as well, as without a spectrum analyzer($$$$) it is sometimes difficult to tell what is causing issues with reception of digital stations, but with analog, you directly see what is causing the problem right on the screen. Snow=weak signal, Ghosts=multipath, interference=various sorts of "lines" added to the picture ...

Does anyone know when WDTN-DT/NBC HD will be carried on TW cable?

JK - HA HA HA

Probably the day MLBuc or someone else who is a TW viewer purchases a ATSC receiver+antenna to receive WDTN-DT OTA .... ;)

Well, folks,(and this is not "directed" at anyone personally) I see this thread is becoming just a waste of my time again. Seems like If I'm going to particpate in this thread, I'm just going to have to ignore much of the nonsense(IMO) that is posted here.

This is getting ridiculous, you are like the little kid who takes his ball and goes home when he doesn't get his way. I respect your technical knowledge of HDTV, I do think you go out of your way to make excuses for the broadcasters, however, and that rubs me the wrong way (remember you sticking up for WKEF when they continued to have the dropped frames and audio after more than a year?).

I didn't say a Da*n thing about the poll, or how much receiver's cost/etc, or what the "majority" of HD viewers in Dayton area are using. And, you don't know what the "majority" of HD viewers in Dayton market are using for HD any more than I do.

That is true, I stated that part because I knew you would come back and site that poll if I didn't mention it in the first place.

All I said was people don't NEED cable to receive WDTN-DT, and I also said that WDTN-DT and NBC network is "in business" as a OTA broadcaster, not a Cablenet. And that's exactly what WDTN-DT can tell anyone who complains about their signal not being on cable - that they can receive the signal OTA, for free("free" excluding any necessary hardware costs).

This is what I have been saying from the beginning. I can't pick up WDTN-DT for free. I must pay an up-front cost to receive their signal. Many people will not pay $100 (or more) to be able to watch their ATSC signal (especially for a limited time, 3 years max). In my opinion (and I have pointed out it is my opinion MANY times), WDTN is doing nothing but hurting themselves in terms of building a viewer base for the DT channel, as I don't even flip by their analog station.

You have to PAY monthly subscription costs for cable(you don't with OTA), and usually, from what I hear with digital cable a couple of months easily add up to $100 or so. If NBC HD is less important to you than what you pay for a few months or so of cable, then I'd speculate in most cases you'll get along fine with WDTN analog SD on cable until TW+WDTN-DT reach an agreement for HD carriage.

That is true, I pay about $100 for TWC's digital cable (HD Tier and Movie Tier). However, I would NEVER pay $100 just for one channel, and that is what my investment would be (if not more) to watch WDTN-DT. That is the point I'm trying to make, while there may not be a subscription cost for their OTA signal, there is a built in cost to receive the signal that is fairly significant (for 1 channel).

I said nothing about "how many" people are going to actually USE OTA to receive HD from WDTN-DT, all I said was that(in the vast majority of cases) people don't NEED cable to do it.

The vast majority of early adopters did not have a built in ATSC tuner. Therefore they need some sort of STB to view HDTV. That is a cost that many people will NOT make for one station. You have to know your audience, and I'm still willing to put down money that cable has well over 50% of the local HDTV subscribers. Therefore they are limiting their own market penetration, for something that they definitely won't get paid for in 3 years (and some studies are even saying that the local stations should pay to be on cable).

How important is it for WDTN NOW to have their HD signal on cable? IMO, probably not very important in a "bottom line" business sense - and that IS what is most important to both the station+cableco. Now, I expect that will likely change(concerning WDTN's DIGITAL signal, but not necessarily HD) by the time analog shut off occurs.

I think it would be hilarious if TWC put WLWT-DT on for NBC-HD in Dayton since WDTN has blocked them from doing it. What does the "must-carry" law state for stations that refused to put their signal on cable, and were replaced by another market's feed instead (and can this be done, I assume WLWT-DT would be allowable if WKRC and in the past WCPO were on TWC in Dayton)? Would WDTN be allowed to force their station on after a certain amount of time after turning down Time Warner?

Cable customers can't get the HD feed via cable from network affiliates(like WDTN-DT) which haven't yet been able to reach an agreement for cable carriage. Which at this time, it isn't uncommon in a market for 1 or 2 stations to have not yet reached an agreement for HD carriage with the cableco. That's one reason why I think it would have/would be a good idea for cableco's to include ATSC receivers in their boxes. Another is because it would have helped to further along the DTV transistion. And, Ironically, it might have even "helped" the cableco's bargining posistion a bit when it came to working out deals with the station for cable carriage.

I don't care about other markets, I only care about the Dayton market. They are the only big 4 station that has not come to an agreement to let TWC rebroadcast their HD signal. I'm guessing that they are the only local station trying to force Time Warner to PAY to rebroadcast that signal (at minimum they are requiring more than what WHIO, WKEF, and WRGT wanted). In this case, they obviously are not looking at what their competition has done, otherwise they would realize they are in the wrong here. They might be making a calculated stand against Time Warner, but in the long run it could easily cause them more harm than good (for example, I don't go past their analog station even during local SD programming).

In order for AVSforum to be most useful and fun for that matter ---- (IMO) I actually think some people should, perhaps, expend a little more effort in researching the issues they are interested in, and learn a little more about the subjects they are posting about before posting.

This is supposed to be a discussion forum, therefore we state our opinions on here. I have given my opinion, I have clearly stated it is my opinion, and I believe have shown I understand the situation. That does not mean I agree with WDTN's side of things, nor your viewpoint.

Like I said before, I think technically you have a 100% full understanding (better than anybody on here, probably better than all but a handful of people on AVSForum as a whole). I think when people complain about the local stations you take offense to it, then tow the local station company attitudes of "HDTV is not a big enough market to care about". That is a total BS attitude *IN MY OPINION*, and they should not be given a pass due to there being less DT viewers than analog viewers. In 3 years everyone will be viewing their DT signal, therefore they need to get it right now. That means you don't wait a year and a half (or longer, not sure how long the WKEF issue went on, I know personally for a year and a half) to fix your signal, nor do you exclude yourself from a large portion of the market trying to negotiate more than what your direct competitors receive.

One other *OPINION* that I have, OTA is not a viable solution in today's subscription TV world, just ask channel 25 in Cincinnati. They have been having petitions for years to get on to Time Warner, and now they are only carried in prime time. I'd imagine that they might totally disappear again when WSTR picks up the new CW channel, and Channel 25 loses their UPN affiliate status.

Personally, I hope that Time Warner finds a way to get WLWT-DT on our HD lineup. That might be the only way to make WDTN's parent company realize that they are in the wrong for trying to charge for their DT signal.

I know the idea of TW Dayton carrying WLWT has been brought up before and I even asked TW about it and got something back about them more or less not being "allowed" to do that. I have to ask then, why do I get WXIX (Fox) from Cincinnati *and* WRGT (Fox) from Dayton ?? Why do my parents (in Lima) get both WHIO (CBS) from Dayton and WBNS (CBS) from Columbus ?? Something's not right about their reason...

I don't know if I've outright mentioned it or not, but it can be figured out, I'm in the process of getting an OTA digital receiver. It's mostly just for "backup" though plus to be able to watch the occassional show on NBC (in HD). Even then, I'm not sure how much we'll use it vs watching analog NBC off of the (TW) DVR. We routinely watch TV programs 1+ day after they air.

Speaking of cable viewers vs their competition in the Dayton area, including OTA (basically, total households - TW customers, so the difference is an unknown split between satellite and OTA), one of the marketing people at TW Dayton wasn't "comfortable" providing those numbers, which I suspected and respected of her. She did suggest I contact a person in TW's Cincy office, now that they've merged. Of course, he may not divulge that info either.

Probably the day MLBuc or someone else who is a TW viewer purchases a ATSC receiver+antenna to receive WDTN-DT OTA .... ;)

That has been my experience in the past... :)

This is getting ridiculous, you are like the little kid who takes his ball and goes home when he doesn't get his way. .

What a load of crap. You don't like it If I back up my comments+continue to engage you in "discussion", and I've been called names and everything else here because of it.

In the past couple of years, it seems to me there seems to be a couple of very overzealous cable fans posting here, although, to me some of the posts actually read like the sort of spindoctoring one would expect from a congressional lobbyist rather than someone interested in actually coming here and sharing their enjoyment+knowledge about HD+HT issues, and THAT my friend is mostly what AVSforum is all about.


(remember you sticking up for WKEF when they continued to have the dropped frames and audio after more than a year?).
.

For one thing, you are talking about 2 different issues when there were 3 different issues. Neither of the issues you mentioned went on for "more than a year", what DID go on for more than a year was an issue(during ABC HD, and NBC HD prior to that) of "video freezes".

I don't know how to get through to you on this, but two of those issues were not affecting ALL equipment, and, the station can't necesarily buy every piece of consumer equipment out there to check it. On the "freezes", I was certianly very annoyed with them, but I wonder how many folks besides me continued to try to get through to the station concerning the issue being a problem on their end? I went through that the entire time(It went on for well over 2 years or more, not 1).

If you want to call that "sticking up" for the station, fine, but mostly I was just passing along accurate info on the situation, as for example at one point I was in contact with WKEF+Sinclair engieers in Columbus about it. Who do you think contacted WKEF+Sinclair+followed through on these issues until it was fixed? Rakesh S. And I, that's who.


However, I would NEVER pay $100 just for one channel, and that is what my investment would be (if not more) to watch WDTN-DT.
.

And I would never pay TW(if they even served my location) for a bunch of channels or programming I never watch.

Also, I receive 57 channels OTA(analog+digital, including multicast SD subchannels - turns out to generally be about 30~35 different programming choices) from Cincinnati and Dayton and it doesn't cost a penny for subcription fees. So what? You don't see me acting like a "3 year old" and whining and complaining because I can't get TW service at my location, or because I can't get "ESPN" for free, OTA.


I think when people complain about the local stations you take offense to it, then tow the local station company attitudes of "HDTV is not a big enough market to care about".
.

My thoughts and posts are my *own*, no one elses. I do my best to provide accurate info, and I take no offense from anything anyone says here about the stations.


In 3 years everyone will be viewing their DT signal, therefore they need to get it right now.
.

I mentioned that very thing to station engineers on occasion when problems occured about 3~4 years ago when there were very few of us watching .....


One other *OPINION* that I have, OTA is not a viable solution in today's subscription TV world, just ask channel 25 in Cincinnati. They have been having petitions for years to get on to Time Warner, and now they are only carried in prime time. I'd imagine that they might totally disappear again when WSTR picks up the new CW channel, and Channel 25 loses their UPN affiliate status.


Not everyone uses the "subscription TV world", it's not viable for a good number of folks(about 15.7% in Dayton market according to 2003 figures I had seen - , about 20% or so nationwide). OTA can even be subscription based for that matter. Search the forum for "USDTV".

Channel 25 is on Channel 38(WBQC-CA), now. They improved their transmission facilities+increased power over a year ago. Channel 25(WOTH-LP) is a second low power station owned by the same folks.

I've been watching both for many years now, TW didn't even carry them at all for many, many years, yet they stayed in business all that time. WOTH-LP 25 is not carried on cable(and weeren't when they were on other channels either), but yet they put a signal on the air. They even ran CFL football last summer in fact.

I know the idea of TW Dayton carrying WLWT has been brought up before and I even asked TW about it and got something back about them more or less not being "allowed" to do that. I have to ask then, why do I get WXIX (Fox) from Cincinnati *and* WRGT (Fox) from Dayton ?? Why do my parents (in Lima) get both WHIO (CBS) from Dayton and WBNS (CBS) from Columbus ?? Something's not right about their reason...


How many times do we have to go over this? Doesn't the screen get "blacked out" on WXIX in Dayton during fox programming that's also running on WRGT? That's what used to happen, at least the last time I was at a friend's house in Dayton with Dayton cable.

May be different in Lima, or even South Dayton -- much likely depends upon the DMA market boundaries in overlapping region+probably agreements between stations.

Since Dayton is within the coverage areas of the Stations, the Cincinnati stations are certianly "eligible" for coverage on Dayton systems.

HOWEVER -- per their net/affiliate agreements, the in market station HAS the Sole distribution rights WITHIN the market to the network programming. it's a little different with PBS.

Hence, TW COULD LEGALLY carry WLWT-DT, but they'd have to BLANK THE SCREEN during NBC HD programming in Dayton, as that is something WDTN-DT has the sole distribution rights within Dayton Market(even if WDTN-DT is NOT yet carried on the cable system) ... Again, things could be different in "south Dayton", or within overlapping market boundries, or certian areas.

How many times do we have to go over this? Doesn't the screen get "blacked out" on WXIX in Dayton during fox programming that's also running on WRGT? That's what used to happen, at least the last time I was at a friend's house in Dayton with Dayton cable. I honestly have no idea. If you say that happened, I believe it. I'd expect them to run some syndicated show or infommercial before they just show a black screen though. If I turned to a channel a couple of times and saw a black picture, I may stop going to that channel permanently.
May be different in Lima, or even South Dayton -- much likely depends upon the DMA market boundaries in overlapping region+probably agreements between stations. Hence why I posed those as questions.

I'd expect them to run some syndicated show or infommercial before they just show a black screen though.


Maybe so, and I could be wrong but wouldn't think it would be something that would be likely to originate from WXIX - unless their SD digital multicast channel of "The Tube" music videos.

Since you have TW cable in Dayton, why don't you CHECK WXIX during FOX programming(that's also running on WRGT at the time) and see what happens?

I expect the UC games WXIX carries(often when there is fox programming running on WRGT) may be a big reason why it's there on Dayton Cable.


Hence why I posed those as questions.

I think the main thing folks are interested in is why can't Dayton Cable carry say, NBC HD from WLWT-DT Cincinnati if they can't come to an agreement with WDTN-DT, while you can put up an antenna and receive either for free OTA?

And, again, the reason is because WDTN-DT has the sole distribution rights for the NBC programming within the Dayton market --- although it *may* be a little different in certian communties, such as in South Dayton, or communities in Between Dayton and Cincinnati such as Lebanon, Middletown/etc.

I honestly have no idea. If you say that happened, I believe it. I'd expect them to run some syndicated show or infommercial before they just show a black screen though. If I turned to a channel a couple of times and saw a black picture, I may stop going to that channel permanently.

WXIX is replaced with an infomercial feed during network programming. It's very obnoxious because it's somehow automated on a timer by TWC and always seems to cut off the end of the late NFL game on football singleheader days when WRGT takes the early slot.

Have a question (having NOTHING to do with OTA vs Cable).

Could too strong a digital signal cause a "Signal not Available" action by a HD set? That's what I get on the upstairs set, while the downstairs set merrily displays that same channel.

Antenna is amplified, then split, with a <20' run to the upstairs set & >80' run to the downstairs set (with an additional splitter, to boot).

Could too strong a digital signal cause a "Signal not Available" action by a HD set? That's what I get on the upstairs set, while the downstairs set merrily displays that same channel.

It could, you can add add'l attenuation in feedline for the receiver that says "signal not available" to see -- but, my best guess is that's probably not what is happening. Is it just one channel/station(if so) or all of them?

Especially If it's just one station, it might be a PSIP related issue effecting the one receiver - especially perhaps with WRGT-DT right now, as I notice there is something wrong with their PSIP, as they are showing up on BOTH 45.1 and 27.5 via PSIP here for about the last week or so. If so, and if you rescan for channels it *might* fix it, if it is a PSIP related issue on their end and that doesn't fix it, you might have to contact the station+tell them your reciever model+the problem you're having/etc.

There have been some assumptions made on this thread that in three years everyone will be watching WDTN-DT. Is there anything keeping WDTN from supplying TWC with the same programming that they supply them with today (assuming that NBC keeps their SD feed along with the HD feed)?

It is my understanding that the analog shutoff date only impacts OTA which means TWC could continue to convert the WDTN SD digital feed to an analog signal that is receivable by any NTSC tuner.

Extending that same idea, TWC could make a killing by marketing their lifeline tier to the masses by being the only NTSC provider on the market which would allow people to use all their existing equipment (TVs, VCRs, TiVos, etc) without any additional equipment purchase.

Thoughts?

In 2009, we *will* be watching WDTN-DT as plain WDTN won't exist. As you say though, will WDTN still offer WDTN in SD and WDTN in HD and only allow TWC to carry the SD ?? I'm sure they can. In fact, I'm sure most stations will continue to have an SD channel and an HD channel as most people still won't have HDTVs. The free set-tops that the gov't will be providing won't be HD set-tops either, from what I've read.

In 2009, we *will* be watching WDTN-DT as plain WDTN won't exist.

Yeah, true, let me rephrase...

There have been some assumptions made on this thread that in three years everyone will be watching WDTN-DT with implied meaning that it will include a HD feed.

Can it also be said that the analog shut off date is not a fixall solution for getting HD feeds added to cable TV?

Can it also be said that the analog shut off date is not a fixall solution for getting HD feeds added to cable TV? I haven't seen anyone imply or assume that myself. I also would NOT make this assumption. As I noted above, I'm sure that most stations will have an SD feed and an HD feed. That said, that's three years from now so I hope this still isn't an issue then !! :eek:

Excellent comments, Terry+hall. There's a lot "going on" concerning your comments and a lot to think about ....

There have been some assumptions made on this thread that in three years everyone will be watching WDTN-DT.


It is certianly still a assumption, but along the lines of what Hall said ... It's a fairly good assumption that after analog shut off, WDTN will have come to an agreement for cable carriage for their digital station, just as their analog station is carried on TW Dayton cable right now - but, HD may not be involved -- hard to read the tea leaves on that one, but I expect(hope so at least) it probably will be involved ...


It is my understanding that the analog shutoff date only impacts OTA which means TWC could continue to convert the WDTN SD digital feed to an analog signal that is receivable by any NTSC tuner.


It affects cable as well, since the analog stations are carried by cable systems, currently. Cableco head ends generally either use OTA, or a fiber feed from the station to pick up the signal. Most stations don't send a "SD digital" feed to the cableco, at least yet. And, I'm not sure but I don't think TW carries WDTN-DT's current digital SD subchannel.


Extending that same idea, TWC could make a killing by marketing their lifeline tier to the masses by being the only NTSC provider on the market which would allow people to use all their existing equipment (TVs, VCRs, TiVos, etc) without any additional equipment purchase.


Yes, and I think that is very much along the lines of what the cableco's want to do. HOWEVER, (and this is a "hot topic", and may have changed), I don't think current rules allow cableco's to "downrez" the HD signal from the stations and convert it to analog or convert SD digital from the station to analog at the cablehead end - from what I've read, cableco's want to be allowed to do this at the cable headend rather than at the viewer's TV, and one party that doesn't WANT them to be allowed to do that are broadcasters.


In fact, I'm sure most stations will continue to have an SD channel and an HD channel as most people still won't have HDTVs. The free set-tops that the gov't will be providing won't be HD set-tops either, from what I've read.


ALL ATSC receivers(even those which will only output SD) can, and WILL be able to decode all ATSC formats -- even the HD formats. So, the SD ATSC "boxes"(or internal tuners in SD sets) of the future will be able to receive, and properly decode the HD from the stations, but they will only output it as SD.

The big question I think is going to really be one of what will be the "majority" in the future ---- 16x9 vs 4x3 sets?

Currently, with my current ATSC receivers(all can output HD as well) :

I can output any HD(or SD) signal, downconverting 720p/1080i -- to a 480i NTSC signal via composite or S-video connections --- AND, I can do just about anything I want with the aspect ratio, including cropping the "sides" off a 16x9 signal originating from a HD source, so the center "4x3" portion of the video perfectly fills a 4x3 set's Screen .... But, will that be the case for these gov't subsidised/etc. "SD" ATSC receivers of the future? And, will broadcasters(or advertisers with HD commercials) even WANT consumers(or at the cableco headend) to have the capability to "crop off" the sides of their HD picture?

OTOH -- right now, from some of what I've heard broadcasters probably get more complaints about "black bars" from the "SD" folks with 4x3 sets than anything else ... Look at all the HD programming that is sent via a seperate 4x3 SD feed from the nets, and broadcast on the analog stations with the sides "cropped off" .... Imagine the "complaints" they'll get from SD only folks(cable or OTA) with 4x3 sets after analog shut off if all the HD programming we get now(and the more to come in the future) is only available in 16x9 with "black bars" on top and bottom of a 4x3 set, or, the sides can't be "cropped out" to fill the screen with an easy press of the button on the remote -- again, I can do that NOW with my ATSC HD receiver set to output NTSC SD and hooked up to a 4x3 SD set via composite or S-video, and personally, that's how I'd like to see them "handle it" ... but, I'm not so sure that will be the likely case ....

Who knows what is going to end up being the "status quo" for this. You just never know at this point, as there are so many possibilities. I think (Hope anyway), it's going to mostly involve HD sent by the station via OTA AND to cableco/DBS headends, but it might also in some, if not many cases end up involving a "superflous"(waste of bandwidth IMO) SD multicast channel with the same programming, but originating in a 4x3 SD format as well for all the folks with SD 4x3 sets, whether they be watching via cable, DBS LiL or OTA - at least if/until 16x9 sets become "the norm".

But it is certianly *possible* it COULD end up being something entirely different. For instance, one possibility might be stations may opt to send a single, overcompressed 4x3 SD feed OTA via MPEG2, and use the remainder of their bandwidth for subscription based OTA or datacasting services, or "HD" via subscription fees(or make the HD available free to air, but that would still require a new receiver capable of handling new codecs other than MPEG2 - even the station could rent or sell them) via more efficent codecs, and they might work out "deals" with the cableco/DBS companies to send a high quality "seperate" HD feed.

Or, They may choose to multicast SD OTA, and send HD to the cableco. RIGHT NOW, this sort of thing is very uncommon(and may be in the future as well) as stations need to purchase 2 expensive encoders (and other equipment) to allow them to send seperate "feeds" to the cableco vs. OTA.

It may still be an issue 3 years from now :(



The $75 Billion TV Tab

By Rachel Rosmarin
Forbes.com

02.22.06, 6:00 AM ET

http://www.forbes.com/2006/02/21/digital-analog-cable-cx_rr_0221digitaltv.html?partner=technology_newsletter


George W. Bush may be grappling with low approval ratings, but at least one
constituency must be pleased with the president right now: The consumer
electronics business, which just received a government mandate that forces
consumers to spend billions to replace or upgrade their television sets
within three years.

Tucked away in the "Deficit Reduction Act of 2005" Bush signed this month
is a provision requiring television broadcasters to switch their signals
from analog to digital by Feb. 19, 2009. The intent is to free up valuable
bandwidth that the federal government can sell, presumably to help whittle
down the budget deficit. But it will also require much of the country to
spend billions in order to watch television: Forbes estimates that the
digital switchover will help the electronics business move $75 billion
worth of product in the next three years.

Right now only about 20% of Americans are capable of receiving a digital
signal through a digital tuner built into the television set itself,
according to the Consumer Electronics Association. And about 40% more will
be able to view the digital signal through a digital cable or satellite
set-top box on an analog TV they already own. That leaves more than 40% of
American TV viewers--or 44 million households--in need of an upgrade.

The upgrade itself gives broadcasters the opportunity to distribute
multiple channels at a time: A local network affiliate, for instance, might
have one news channel, one sports channel and one 24-hour movie channel.
The images won't necessarily look better, unless consumers have an enhanced
or high-definition TV set. If they do, the image quality will be much
sharper due to increased resolution.

But without a digital TV tuner, or a cable or satellite set-top box that
can convert a digital signal, consumers won't get any TV at all by 2009.
They have been headed in that direction for several years--in 2006, digital
sets will outsell analog sets at a ratio by a two-to-one ratio, the
Consumer Electronics Association estimates--but the new law will accelerate
that trend. In the next two and a half years alone, estimates NPD
subsidiary DisplaySearch, Americans will spend some $73 billion buying 56
million digitally equipped sets.

"It's at a point where it's not just the early adopter, technophiles buying
digital sets," says John Revie, Samsung vice president of visual display
marketing. But Revie, who says his company expects digital TV sales to
double this year and again in 2007, says some of that sales growth will
come because of the mandate.

And within a year, even consumers who aren't interested in upgrading from
analog to cable won't have a choice if they're buying a new set--the law
requires retailers to only carry digital-capable sets by March 1, 2007. And
anyone who hasn't replaced their analog set by the digital deadline in 2009
will have to buy a tuner, expected to retail for around $60, made by
manufacturers like LG and Thomson

Still, the conversion will take some prodding. Stewart Wolpin, an analyst
with market research group Points North, says only 13% of consumers know
about the digital switch. Wolpin says he eventually expects to see ads
urging consumers to restock their sets from electronics manufacturers and
retailers, but that those campaigns will likely not begin until a year from
now. The Commerce Department's National Telecommunications and Information
Administration has been allocated a modest $5 million to help with the
advertising effort.

And if all else fails, there's always direct subsidies: The feds have
earmarked $1.5 billion to be distributed among the 21 million families who
still have analog sets so they can buy digital tuners. Each family will
receive up to two $40 vouchers, to be distributed through the Commerce
Department.

But there is still a chance that the impact of digital conversion may be
weakened: Some cable operators are arguing that they should be able to keep
supplying their customers with analog signals which would allow them to
keep watching without an upgrade. The rationale, according to National
Cable and Television Association spokesman Brian Dietz, is that neither
customers nor cable companies should have to pay for new set top boxes to
maintain service.

Nothing doing, says National Association of Broadcaster spokesman Dennis
Wharton, who argues that cable operators are trying to avoid carrying the
new "multicasted" digital channels from local broadcasters. Such channels
might directly compete with cable offerings like sports and movie channels.
The Federal Communications Commission is expected to make a ruling on the
broadcasters' request this year.

It may still be an issue 3 years from now :(


Hope not, but who knows, it might even be concievable analog shut off gets pushed back farther before then .... Notice that they chose a date AFTER the superbowl, but before March Madness .....


The $75 Billion TV Tab

By Rachel Rosmarin
Forbes.com

02.22.06, 6:00 AM ET


Thought that was a very good read, and a reasonably well balanced article, which presented mostly accurate info. Actually, probably one of the more accurate articles I've seen on the DTV transistion in the mainstream press over the past several years.

However, I SERIOUSLY question the accuracy of some of CEA's facts. Which turns out to be not all that unusual for me ....

Especially this one :


Right now only about 20% of Americans are capable of receiving a digital
signal through a digital tuner built into the television set itself,
according to the Consumer Electronics Association.


Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see anyway how that could be accurate at present, unless 19~19.5% or so of Americans have went out and bought a HD set with "HD built in" in the past 6 months ....

That sounds more like figures from the numbers of digital sets which have sold -- in total since the first one ~1998 or so -- most of them up until very recently due to tuner mandate without built in Digital tuners, for ATSC OTA or QAM "digital cable ready" with cablecard. Note sets labeled "digital cable ready" have to have ATSC tuners for OTA as well, per FCC rules.

Jeff - Thanks for the tip. I did a re-scan and that resolved the problem. The station was WDTN, and have had the same problem with WHIO. All others have been normal. BTW, I get both 45.1 and 27.5 before & after the re-scan. And on our other set as well.

Hopefully, they'll all figure out how to comply with the PSIP spec before much longer. This could get old.

Carl

Hopefully, they'll all figure out how to comply with the PSIP spec before much longer. This could get old.

Carl

Concerning your need to do a rescan -- In this case, hard to be certian but that's probably more of a receiver issue than the station that is "to blame", probably occuring because the receiver didn't update it's internal VCT info when the station made some changes in their PSIP ... Some receivers will only update their VCT info when you do a channel rescan, some receivers will update their internal VCT info with the info from the station's PSIP stream everytime you "switch channels" and tune to a new station.

But Oh, yeah, stations have had a difficult time 100% properly implementing PSIP and It's already WAY past getting old for me .... especially when at times it can be like pulling teeth to get the folks at the station to realize they've got a problem on their end ......

And, it's not just PSIP --- For instance, The dropped frames issue from WKEF-DT during ABC HD programming from filmed sources is back(since at least saturday) on my Zenith HDV420 receiver ..

If it's the same issue(and appears to be) that was occuring last spring from them, it's an issue which only effects certian receiver models(it's not happening on my other receivers for instance).

Whether or not it is a bug concerning the "decoder"(on my end) or the "encoder" or something else at the station that is actually is "At fault" in this case, at this point I have no idea. I do know several other stations which send 720p and use the same encoder(or a bit later updated model of it), and I've never seen this issue with those stations and I have no idea whether or not they have an encoder setting called "repeat field detection" turned on or not.

Although, on a couple of occasions for brief periods of time, it, or similar issue did occur from WCPO-DT, ABC HD Cincinnati, although in those cases actually MORE receiver models seemed to be effected as reported on the forum, and WCPO-DT is using a entirely different make/model encoder.

It doesn't seem to involve the display's handling of 3:2 pulldown on my end -- for example it even does it if I send 480i from the receiver to a old analog TV, or no matter what I output from the receiver - 480i/ 480p, 720p or 1080i.

When I followed up with them on this last spring/summer, after it was fixed, they had said turning OFF repeat field detection on their encoder fixed the problem. Also, on previous occasions The same problem occured for a long period of time from WSYX-DT Columbus(ABC HD), but was fixed there long before it began occuring from WKEF-DT Last spring - They had said they were using same encoder model at WSYX-DT+WTTE-DT as they are for WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT. When it was occuring at WSYX-DT, I seem to recall instead of folks providing any sort of valuable feedback to the station about it, it instead resulted in a bunch of name calling and "bashing" of the station and everything else on the "old" columbus HD forum, as some people were getting the issue depending upon the model of their receiver, and some folks weren't ...

In any case, normally I wouldn't do this without asking for permission first -- as posting private communications is usually a "no no" here, but in this case I think it's OK as it's all purely "technical", and should also hopefully demonstrate some of the difficult issues the folks at the station have to deal with with these sorts of issues and "DTV/HD issues", and also that these guys at the stations are usually quite "interested" in doing a good job for us, and aren't the "evil broadcasters" folks some seem to like to make them out to be ...

So, here is a portion of the comments(from an email dated early May 2005) I received from a Sinclair Engineer in Columbus about the issue in May 2005, who was working with me along with WKEF/WRGT engineers at the time. Note the "motion artifacts" he is talking about were, as they currently are from WKEF-DT during programming sourced from film -- are "dropped frames" - maybe about 2/3 or so of the fps are being displayed, resulting in "stuttering" video during programing from film sources :

quote:

Remember me? I remember talking to you years ago about various video
jumping issues.

I just got a call from Mr DTV inducating you were seeing some motion
artifacts you attribute to 24p to 720p/60 conversion.
I have a couple of questions- are you still able to get WSYX-DT and
WTTE-DT in Columbus? If so do you see the same problems there as in Dayton?

Also, can you let me know specific shows you see this on? I have in the
past had people tell me some show, such as Monday Night Football, were
fine. Other shows, like 20/20 and other shows the network upconverts
were fine, and sitcoms shot on film had bad motion artifacts. This would
be consistent with some kind of 3:2 pulldown problem.

There is an element in the encoding process called "repeat field
detection" where the encoder does not encode multiple identical fields,
as you get with 24p to 30 or 60p conversion, rather it tells the decoder
at home to duplicate the fields. Decoders behave differently with 3:2
pulldown, and even the same decoder (a Panasonic) will react differently
to the same input when there output is changed from 480i to 720 or 1080.
And to complicate things some displays have minds of their own with
regard to converting 720 to 1080 for display and 3:2 pulldown.

My problem is we have Samsungs, Hughes E86's, an old RCA DTC100 and good
test gear and I've never seen the problem with my own two eyes. Right
now, both Columbus stations have repeat field detection disabled. Can
you let me know if you see the same artifacts as you do in Dayton? If
you do not, I will work with Dayton to turn off the pulldown. If you do,
then we can try changing some other MPEG2 parameters and see where that
takes us.

Hope all else is well, thanks for your help with this!

--
Dan

: End quote

Sorry, I didn't have time to comment on all of MLBUC's comments earlier so a couple more comments concerning the below. Decided I should probably go ahead and post about these, as for instance, I think many folks are confused concerning what "must-carry" actually is.


I think it would be hilarious if TWC put WLWT-DT on for NBC-HD in Dayton since WDTN has blocked them from doing it. What does the "must-carry" law state for stations that refused to put their signal on cable, and were replaced by another market's feed instead (and can this be done, I assume WLWT-DT would be allowable if WKRC and in the past WCPO were on TWC in Dayton)? Would WDTN be allowed to force their station on after a certain amount of time after turning down Time Warner?


Commercial stations have no obligation whatsoever, in any shape or form to provide their signal to cable for distribution on the cable system. Of course, most stations want their signal on cable.

Must carry is a set of rules which requires that Cableco's MUST-CARRY a eligible stations signal if the station INVOKES must carry rules -- In other words, only if the eligible station ASKS for it.

Stations with programming desired by the cableco/cableco's customers don't usually use "must carry", instead they neogotiate with the cableco for carriage via retransmission consent rules, which involves deals between cableco+station -- could involve $, or could involve other things ....

Per either Must-carry or retransmission consent rules, cable carriage agreements between stations+cableco's last 3 years, and these things CAN change every three years although usually I think the station+cableco try to keep any such changes to a minimum. If they do change, the cableco must inform it's customers of it, such as via it's monthly bills.

Low power stations such as WBQC-CA Cincinnati(currently UPN) aren't eligible for "must-carry" rights. Neither are stations which don't provide a certian level of OTA signal strength to location of cable head ends that serves any given community.

The "full power" Cincinnati stations are "eligible" for either Must-carry or retransmission consent cable carriage on Dayton cable because their signal adequentely covers Dayton Metro area. That wouldn't be the case for a TW Headend North of say, Troy. Now, I expect Dayton+Cincinnati stations may also have worked out some agreements amongst themselves concerning what communties they'll seek cable carriage in, or other "details"(such as, even possibly involving the below) concerning cable carriage in certian communities between say, Dayton+Cincinnati.

Must carry or retransmission consent have nothing to do with the reasons why TW Dayton can't legally provide NBC HD programming from WLWT-DT Cincinnati in Dayton. As I was discussing with Hall, they COULD legally carry WLWT-DT in Dayton, BUT they'd have to "blank" the screen(or switch to infomercials/etc) during NBC programming as per their agreement with the network -- REGARDLESS of whether or not WDTN-DT is carried on dayton cable, as WDTN-DT has the SOLE RIGHTS to distribute the programming within the Dayton market. That might be a little different in certian communties, involving communties in "overlapping" DMA regions between Cincinnati+Dayton/etc. It's also a little different for PBS stations.


That is true, I pay about $100 for TWC's digital cable (HD Tier and Movie Tier).


Sorry To state the obvious -- $100 a month is $1200 a year, or $12,000 over 10 years --- Compare to 10 years(and longer probably) of NBC HD for the one time cost of about $200~300 or so for ATSC receiver and antenna, not to mention all the other free HD(and SD) programming you'll get via OTA digital (yes, I know much of that is also available via Cable) ...

Now, I'm NOT taking issue with your decisions concerning how much you'll "pay" for TW service or the packages you want/etc, nor that you've decided you don't want to pay $100 for "one channel" for a ATSC receiver/etc. -- Each to his own there, we all have our own reasons concerning what we watch and what equipment we purchase/etc ... That's fine, and it's your choice ...

The POINT I'm trying to make here is, I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill concerning the one time extra "cost" of a ATSC receiver and antenna for those who don't have a "digital tuner" built into their HD set.

AND the other point I would like to make is, I think many people would be able to find a use for it "elsewhere" whenever WDTN-DT+WBDT-DT is carried on cable. Such as for OTA digital reception on a Bedroom TV, or kitchen TV/etc. And, in Dayton area for Cincinnati or Columbus stations. Maybe *most* people aren't interested in those, but I think *many* people might choose to watch, say CBS HD from Cincinnati or columbus affiliates instead of a UD game or "Billy Graham" on WHIO when WHIO "prempts" CBS for other programming, or the UK game that's airing tonight on WSTR, Cincinnati(if its analog station isn't carried on Dayton cable).

And, you are also not mentioning that AFAIK, unless something has changed recently TWO of the HD stations in Dayton are not carried on Dayton TW yet. WDTN-DT/NBC HD and WB HD/ WBDT-DT - Yes, I'm sure someone may tell us they may not "care" about WB HD(so? That doesn't mean others aren't interested in it) know they are periodically available in "diagnostic" mode, but don't think they're "offically" on the system, again unless something has changed recently ....

----------------------------------------------------------

Look. I would like nothing more for everyone to get EXACTLY what they want, and all the HD they want via Cable, or OTA or by standing in the middle of the street with a F connector stuck up their butt .... But, You know that Stones song ... "You Can't allways get what you want ...... "

And, you are also not mentioning that AFAIK, unless something has changed recently TWO of the HD stations in Dayton are not carried on Dayton TW yet. WDTN-DT/NBC HD and WB HD/ WBDT-DT - Yes, I'm sure someone may tell us they may not "care" about WB HD(so? That doesn't mean others aren't interested in it) No, WBDT-DT isn't carried by TW yet. As you say, it comes down to more about what stations people care about. Personally, I can't name a single show on WB that I watch. WDTN on the other hand, has ER and Law & Order:SVU, off the top of my head. My wife also watches that show about the lady who dreams about crimes or something.... just asked her, "Medium". Showing how out of touch I am with all of this, I believe NBC is taking over Monday Night Football next fall. Is that right ?? I do occassionaly watch MNF and the lack of the DVR there won't bother me.

We don't discuss what channels the cable company in Columbus or Los Angeles doesn't carry, do we ?? No, 'cause we (probably) don't care.

Heh, just ran across this guy's post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=648426. He's looking for an OTA receiver to go along with his TW cable service because his TW doesn't carry NBC, ABC, or CBS !!! And we thought we had it bad ! :D

Personally, I can't name a single show on WB that I watch.
.

Actually, the point I was trying to make was that there ARE folks who watch WB, and I'm sure would(or do) enjoy WB HD, and "coming soon" the "CW" network, likely with UPN+WB shows. HD Smallville for example. OTA from either WBDT-DT or WSTR-DT, I personally occasionally watch "Everwood" in HD as well, although the past couple of years I've lost some interest.

Other examples of WB HD I've enjoyed -- Wizard Of OZ (4x3 OAR + HD, but a HD transfer nonetheless) was simply spectactular on WB HD a few months ago, as have been The first two LOTR films which have aired in WB HD, with the third I believe coming this fall - They weren't OAR, but there were a combination of open matte+ a very slight crop.

Now, I'm sure we'll hear from folks telling us how they won't watch "movies" in HD with commercials either. You know what, I don't really care as *I* sometimes enjoy them, even though I have LOTR trilogy on DVD for instance(OAR at that) -- T3 was one of the few movies from the past few years I hadn't seen at theatre or on DVD, but I certianly enjoyed it via CBS HD on Sunday night.


Showing how out of touch I am with all of this, I believe NBC is taking over Monday Night Football next fall. Is that right ??
.

MNF goes to ESPN, NBC gets the Sunday night games.


We don't discuss what channels the cable company in Columbus or Los Angeles doesn't carry, do we ?? No, 'cause we (probably) don't care.

Maybe, but in certian circumstances it might be wise to take a look at what is going on in other markets. For instance, unless something has changed recently, WTTE-DT/WSYX-DT (Fox HD/ABC HD) in Columbus haven't been able to come to an agreement with Columbus TW for HD carriage. It's been 3 or 4 years now both stations have been on air. Both those stations are owned by Sinclair, as is WKEF-DT in Dayton(WRGT-DT is operated by sinclair via LMA, and Sinclair has been trying to get ownership of WRGT transfered from cunningham to sinclair for a long time, so far the FCC hasn't allowed this), and WSTR-DT in Cincinnati is also owned by Sinclair. WSTR-DT hasn't reached an agreement with TW Cincy yet either, but I'd read they had recently made an agreement with insight(which serves N KY).

Sinclair is a station-owner which is well known, and "on record" for asking for $ from cableco's for HD carriage. That may or may not be "different" for WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT, who knows what the deal involved was that put both stations on TW Dayton fairly quickly. And, who knows if that deal will "change" the next time the current cable carriage agreement between TW Dayton and Sinclair for WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT expires ...

Actually, the point I was trying to make was that there ARE folks who watch WB... And they're more than welcome to voice their complaints or comments. I just won't do it for them. Yeah, maybe that's selfish, but to each his own....

Put it this way: If TW said I could add WDTN-DT for an add'l $1.50/month, I'd probably do it. If WBDT-DT was offered for the same or even lower price, I honestly think I'd pass.

HD is for everyone, and folks who come here have all sorts of interests and preferences. The more HD quality programming is available(whether you or I like to watch some of it or not), no matter via which means of delivery, the better IMO.

So, WB HD from WBDT-DT Dayton is just another good reason for folks to use HD OTA ....

...As I was discussing with Hall, they COULD legally carry WLWT-DT in Dayton, BUT they'd have to "blank" the screen(or switch to infomercials/etc) during NBC programming as per their agreement with the network -- REGARDLESS of whether or not WDTN-DT is carried on dayton cable, as WDTN-DT has the SOLE RIGHTS to distribute the programming within the Dayton market. That might be a little different in certian communties, involving communties in "overlapping" DMA regions between Cincinnati+Dayton/etc. It's also a little different for PBS stations.

As evidenced by WKRC and WHIO on TWC, both of them broadcast their prime time shows over TWC in Dayton. Now maybe WHIO gave permission for TWC to show CBS programming on WKRC, but either way I receive CBS programming and always have. It was this way in the past when WCPO was on TWC in Dayton as well (it was removed when WDTN was remapped to channel 9 due to ghosting issues). The only station I have ever seen blacked out during prime time programming is WXIX. The other blackouts I have seen are Reds games on WGN or TBS when Fox Sports Ohio is showing the games in the local market (and I believe that blackout is the "60 mile rule" (within 60 miles of Cincinnati)).

Kettering must fall in the "South of Dayton" category for TW as I don't get WKRC in the "City of Dayton". I assume some sort of "coverage area" factors in here and if so, I'd like to know how Fairborn is able to get it as well as "North Dayton".

I did flip to WXIX last night while American Idol was on and there was an old 70s game show or something being shown....

Kettering must fall in the "South of Dayton" category for TW as I don't get WKRC in the "City of Dayton". I assume some sort of "coverage area" factors in here and if so, I'd like to know how Fairborn is able to get it as well as "North Dayton".

I did flip to WXIX last night while American Idol was on and there was an old 70s game show or something being shown....

"City of Dayton" doesn't get WKRC but North of Dayton, South of Dayton, and Fairborn TWC lineups all have it. Could be a franchise agreement thing, isn't channel 12 in City of Dayton some sort of public access channel?

It's nice to have KRC for all those nights that WHIO dumps CBS prime for Hairpiece Hartsock and UD basketball :eek:

"City of Dayton" doesn't get WKRC but North of Dayton, South of Dayton, and Fairborn TWC lineups all have it. Could be a franchise agreement thing, Very well could be. "City of Dayton" is what used to be Viacom territory. If you look up the city's cable franchise agreement, you'll see it's between Dayton and Viacom from 1993 or so, as I recall. I'm not sure about Fairborn, but I do know that Englewood, Harrison Township, Trotwood, i.e. "North of Dayton" was Mediacom and before that, Continental Cablevision. I think Kettering and the southern area was also (MVCC areas too).
isn't channel 12 in City of Dayton some sort of public access channel? The channel number doesn't matter anymore.... Channel "2", WDTN, is on channel "9" currently. Channel 12 for me is "Dayton Spiritual Channel", which I presume is a public access channel. Moving that, if necessary, would be a non-event, IMO.

It's nice to have KRC for all those nights that WHIO dumps CBS prime for Hairpiece Hartsock and UD basketball :eek:LOL that's awesome!

I hate it when they do that - even though they re-air their primetime shows later on at 2:35am or something. Those of us without name-based PVR's are screwed unless we remember to reset our timers. At least now I can pick up KRC OTA, if the weather is good.

I assume some sort of "coverage area" factors in here


Probably not so much, since Cincinnati signals coverage area reaches to around I-70. Again, it's different with PBS, but I'd guess that it probably has more to do with agreements between the stations concerning specifics involving cable carriage in communities in "overlapping" DMA regions. Net/affilate agreements concerning the specifics of distribution rights in overlapping DMA areas could potentially be involved as well, I suppose. I haven't researched them much, but maybe the "signifcantly viewed" rules might have something to do with it as well.

Very well could be. "City of Dayton" is what used to be Viacom territory. If you look up the city's cable franchise agreement, you'll see it's between Dayton and Viacom from 1993 or so, as I recall. I'm not sure about Fairborn, but I do know that Englewood, Harrison Township, Trotwood, i.e. "North of Dayton" was Mediacom and before that, Continental Cablevision. I think Kettering and the southern area was also (MVCC areas too).
.

The stations have the distribution rights to the programming within the market, so I'd think any agreements to serve specific areas in "overlapping" DMA's would probably involve agreements among the stations involved of the same net affiliation, or possibly even specifics involving the affiliation agreement between the network+the station. I don't know, but I'd even think in some cases there might even be issues involved, for example with certian syndicated programming+the stations distrubtion rights. I'm also not sure what part any of the "Signifcantly viewed" rules have on this, I suppose there also may be something involved with that.

I don't think any sort of franchise agreement specific to the cableco for any given location would "trump" stations' cable carriage rights, or exclusive(to market) programming distribution rights ....

In any case, I'd think it's probably a very "Tricky" and compliated issue for Dayton+Cincinnati stations+cable providers, given the signals from BOTH markets cover the "metro areas" of both .....