There has been a lot of talk in the past of Dayton becoming part of the Greater Cincinnati DMA. If this happens, I wonder whether the networks would remove the double affiliates for the market.

I'd assume at some point in the past this situation has come up, anybody know of a similar situation?

"City of Dayton" doesn't get WKRC but North of Dayton, South of Dayton, and Fairborn TWC lineups all have it. Could be a franchise agreement thing, isn't channel 12 in City of Dayton some sort of public access channel?

It's nice to have KRC for all those nights that WHIO dumps CBS prime for<snip out unnecessary comment> and UD basketball

Just curious, why would you watch analog 12 via cable in those cases when you can watch CBS HD from WKRC-DT (or likely WBNS-DT given your previous reception reports) OTA?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't think Fairborn or anywhere else around Dayton(besides maybe South Dayton) gets WKRC-DT/CBS HD via cable do they?

There has been a lot of talk in the past of Dayton becoming part of the Greater Cincinnati DMA. If this happens, I wonder whether the networks would remove the double affiliates for the market.

I'd assume at some point in the past this situation has come up, anybody know of a similar situation?

Unless all of the Dayton stations go out of business(like that is likely with say WHIO and Cox and DDN/etc) , I Don't think that is going to happen, but who knows.

At one time WAY back when, there was talk of having Dayton+Cincinnati be one market, with the transmitters/towers located centrally -- about where WLW tower (and the former Voice of America Antenna farm) is. It never happened though, as the Dayton+Cincinnati Stations were already well established by the time someone had that idea ....

With all the talk about cable carriage issues, here are some FCC facts and rules folks may want to look at. I could dig up the links to the actual, rather lengthy rules+rulemaking documents themselves, but I think the info from these should suffice, and be a little easier on the eyes :

FCC's Cable carriage of Broadcast Stations fact sheet (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/cblbdcst.html)

Summary of rules for cable carriage of digital TV signals apopted 1/18/2001 (http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/News_Releases/2001/must_carry_factsheet.html)

General Cable Television industry and Regulation information fact sheet (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/csgen.html)

From the FCC facts in last link provided above, I quote the following sections of interest to our recent discussions :

:quote

Syndicated Program Exclusivity Protection

With respect to non-network programming, cable systems that serve at least 1,000 subscribers may be required, upon proper notification, to provide syndicated protection to broadcasters who have contracted with program suppliers for exclusive exhibition rights to certain programs within specific geographic areas, whether or not the cable system affected is carrying the station requesting this protection. However, no cable system is required to delete a program broadcast by a station which is either significantly viewed or which places a Grade B or better contour over the community of the cable system.

Network Program Nonduplication

Commercial television station licensees are entitled to protect the network programming they have contracted for by exercising nonduplication rights against more distant television broadcast stations carried on a local cable television system that serves more than 1,000 subscribers. Commercial broadcast stations may assert these nonduplication rights regardless of whether or not their signals are being transmitted by the local cable system and regardless of when, or if, the network programming is scheduled to be broadcast. Generally, the zone of protection for such programming cannot exceed thirty-five miles for stations licensed to a community in the Commission's list of top 100 television markets or fifty-five miles for stations licensed to communities in smaller television markets. In addition, a cable operator does not have to delete the network programming of any station which the Commission has previously recognized as significantly viewed in the cable community.

:end quote

Gee, that was a useful and informative post concerning Dayton "Local HDTV and reception" issues worthy of an automatic email notification that the thread has been updated ....

Is it any wonder if personel at the stations no longer monitor this thread to see if anyone is having any sorts of issues with their signals, or if there are any issues with any new equipment they've installed/etc/etc ?

But Of course, what am I thinking? It must be of extreme importance to find out what 1450Khz+Paul210 thinks about say, Donna Jordan or Mike Hartsock's appearance ... In glorious SD no less ...

What about seeing Sally Taylor or Amy Covino in HD ?? That would be nice someday....

By the way, maybe it's just me, but those automatic e-mail notifications of new posts toa thread get old real quick. I hate it when I post at a new site that has those notices turned on by default. I subscribe to different threads, this is certainly one, and I find out about new posts when *I* want to, by visiting the site on my own.

What about seeing Sally Taylor or Amy Covino in HD ?? That would be nice someday....


As long as we are discussing such important issues, HD and Colleen Sullivan(is she still there? - I usually watch Cincinnati news more often) from WDTN-DT would be nice ... Still wouldn't mind Cheryl Mchenry(spelling?) in HD either, would have liked to see that 15~20 years ago as well .... And, what was WKEF's first weather girl's name from the late 70's when they first started doing local news ? Then there are some of the Cincinnati stations female TV personalities .... Not so much now perhaps as was the case several years ago ....


By the way, maybe it's just me, but those automatic e-mail notifications of new posts toa thread get old real quick. I hate it when I post at a new site that has those notices turned on by default. I subscribe to different threads, this is certainly one, and I find out about new posts when *I* want to, by visiting the site on my own.

Yes you can turn off the email notifications at AVSforum in user control panel ...

I leave it turned on personally, in case someone posts and has an issue(in some cases can be *time specific* - such if station's go off air, or are having technical difficulties/etc) In case I'm available and it's an issue I may be able to help out with or provide input on/etc ....

lol .. good stuff - no I really do have something to say.. has wkef increased their output? my signal meter has upped itself a few points in the past week or so..

WKEF filed for a license to cover their full power construction permit last summer. Which Means they should have been at full power (138KW ERP) since then. Prior to last spring/summer, they were running an STA with only very slightly less power(a fraction of a db) difference -- 95.5 KW ERP.

Sorry if you're offended, but it sure beats the arguing, ranting and endlessly long posts you guys use to prove your point instead of just looking the other way. I'm glad to see a little humor to lighten-up this thread. What's wrong with informative and entertaining instead of constant bickering?

I am not offended, and I am not bickering and I am not ranting, and I'm not trying to "prove my point" in an attempt to show how *smart* I am or anything along those lines ....

I'm trying to provide *accurate information* for folks instead of urban myths or legends or "technobabble" to hopefully contribute so that this thread is useful and informative for folks !

Sometimes that does involve Long posts, sorry, don't know what I can do about that. And certianly I make mistakes at times and I certianly welcome any accurate corrections/info concerning any incorrect info I might post!

And, I'll do that in any way, shape or form I can -- although I make every attempt *Not* to be "mean and nasty" about it, sometimes it seems to turn out to be necessary, as sometimes there seems to be no other way to get that information across. And, sometimes it seems NOTHING works, no matter how hard I try.

There is nothing wrong with a little humor, but this is the 2nd time recently in which I think one of your posts *could* be interpeted as an effort to "disregard" some of my comments as "someone who needs to get another hobby". Although I am *not* saying that was your actual intention.

It is also one of several occasions when 1450khz has commented upon the appearance of certian local news personalities, not in a favourable way. The first 2 or 3 times, It didn't bother me, and I ignored it this time as well until you "bumped it to the top again". I certianly enjoy a bit of humor now and then, but, not only do I think it is rude in this case(how do you know Donna or Mike aren't out there reading this thread?), it just seems a little childish to me on what is(what used to be anyway) a forum, and a thread with a "professional" attitude .... at least it USED to be a "professional" attitude here(but yeah we could have fun as well), including in THIS thread ....

Speaking of which .....

Isn't it interesting there have been NO responses or discussion yet concerning the facts I posted from FCC in an earlier post this afternoon? EVEN THOUGH they directly involve issues we've been discussing here, and EVEN THOUGH I attempted to make it the least "contrevertsial" as possible, and as easy to respond to as I could ? EVEN THOUGH I made sure it could not be construed as some sort of "argument" on my part(even though that would not have been my intention in any case, it NEVER has been), as might unfortunetly be the case If I would have quoted portions of, say mlbuc's last post?

And yet when *I* post info and thoughts about those issues and facts in my own words, INSTEAD of folks doing a little research to to look up the facts(such as FCC rules on cable carriage) and discussing things reasonably, it's almost certianly the case I can expect to see such replies(or get into a long converstation about it requiring long posts/etc) from at least one or two folks here in attempts to *prove me wrong* such as "I live in so and so community in Dayton area and I get WKRC analog out of Cincinnati via cable" ..... or, "probably a cable franchise agreement thing/etc/etc/etc", or "I think some folks discussing this issue need to get a new hobby", or "wow, too much caffiene" or, "Your acting like a 3 year old/etc/etc/etc", or, even posts which seem to suggest the info I posted was ignored, completely or the thread discussion gets quickly directed elsewhere by other posters ....

I don't know what's up with that, but I do know I don't like it, I know it ain't right, and I do know we did not have these problems on this thread prior to a couple of years or so ago ....

Isn't it interesting there have been NO responses or discussion yet concerning the facts I posted from FCC in an earlier post this afternoon? EVEN
THOUGH they directly involve issues we've been discussing here, and EVEN THOUGH I attempted to make it the least "contrevertsial" as possible, and as easy to respond to as I could ? EVEN THOUGH I made sure it could not be construed as some sort of "argument" on my part(even though that would not have been my intention in any case, it NEVER has been), as might unfortunetly be the case If I would have quoted portions of, say mlbuc's last post?

Actually, if you read my last post that you were referring to, I said I didn't know the exact rules, and questioned what the actual rule is. Some of us don't have time to research FCC rules regarding cable carriage, or full power vs low power carriage rules, etc. etc.

As far as trying to prove you wrong by saying I receive WKRC with no blackouts, you are totally off base. I was questioning what the FCC rule was that allowed them to be shown but not WXIX. If you can't understand that...... forget it, not worth it.

Just in case anybody missed it, I thought this deserved to be bumped...


It's nice to have KRC for all those nights that WHIO dumps CBS prime for Hairpiece Hartsock and UD basketball

The only announcer worth anything on their broadcasts is Mark Adams. He does a great job and knows the game.

And, just to keep this related to TV, any word on if WHIO will get a new truck or start renting a truck for the UD games? I have been told by employees of WHIO that their current truck is 25 years old (sorry, can't research that one for you Nitewatchman). Their production of the UD games are worse than what a local high school could do, and they get constant breakups throughout the broadcast (whether analog or digital, you get blue streaks all the way across the screen). The audio is substandard at best as well. At this point, I wish UD would do what Xavier does and buy time on FSN Ohio then sell the commercial time.

There has been a lot of talk in the past of Dayton becoming part of the Greater Cincinnati DMA. If this happens, I wonder whether the networks would remove the double affiliates for the market.

I'd assume at some point in the past this situation has come up, anybody know of a similar situation?

That would suck during football season because anything opposite a sold-out Bengals game would get blacked out. Right now WXIX has to black out those games but WRGT doesn't.
Of course, that's more a product of inane NFL TV regulations. Speaking of which, wonder what the odds are of NFL network actually getting on TWC anytime soon. riiiight.... :p

Actually, if you read my last post that you were referring to, I said I didn't know the exact rules, and questioned what the actual rule is. Some of us don't have time to research FCC rules regarding cable carriage, or full power vs low power carriage rules, etc. etc.


Yes, I read it. That's part of my point. Since I have "looked it up" previously and studied this stuff a bit(and I've had conversations about this stuff with folks in the biz as well) I've been posting information involving those rules all along so you don't HAVE to research it, but certianly you don't have to take my word for it(and you shouldn't), you can look it up yourself. We've also talked about this stuff over, and over and over and over again in this thread on previous occasions.

In certian cases, when you're NOT posting questions and your posting info/etc, If you're taking the time to post here about certian subjects(and many of the posts here have not been posed as questions), I don't see what's wrong expecting that you've done your research and do your best to post correct information. If it still turns out to be wrong, and someone points it out, they are not saying you are an idiot or trying to "rub you the wrong way", they are simply providing info that indicates it's wrong.



As far as trying to prove you wrong by saying I receive WKRC with no blackouts, you are totally off base.


Maybe so, and I apologize if I was "off base".

However, I thought I'd already explained how it was possible Cincinnati stations(including network programming) could be carried in some communities in Dayton area. I said because it could involve agreements among the stations(and that's true) to serve certian communties, but it is also true it could involve FCC's significantly viewed rules. So, since I've already mentioned that, and then you mention WKRC and how your getting it and you're asking questions about it, It appeared like(no matter what your actual intentions are) you're were saying I was wrong, as I'd already talked about it .....


I was questioning what the FCC rule was that allowed them to be shown but not WXIX. If you can't understand that...... forget it, not worth it.


I'm not sure if in this specific case it's a FCC rule, or agreement between the Cincinnati/Dayton stations, or per the affiliate/network agreements. It may be the significantly viewed rules that are "directly" involved. I do know,(and see the info from the FCC facts) as I've been saying all along that stations have the sole distribution rights to the network programming within their market, and that's the main reason why "generally", if TW carried WLWT-DT they'd have to blank the screen during NBC programming on Dayton cable(but perhaps not necessarily every single Dayton area community), whether or not WDTN-DT is carried on Cable. Perhaps an exception might be(at least in some specific communties) if everyone puts up an antenna in Dayton and starts watching WLWT and makes it into a "significantly viewed" station ....

By the way, Here is link to FCC's current "signficantly viewed list"(updated 2/23/06) of stations+communties effected (PDF format) :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-263917A1.pdf

For convienience, it lists the following stations as significantly viewed in

Montgomery County, OH :

Montgomery
WDTN, 2, Dayton, OH (formerly WLWD)
WHIO-TV, 7, Dayton, OH
WPTD, 16, Dayton, OH (formerly WKTR)
WKEF, 22, Dayton, OH
+WRGT-TV, 45, Dayton, OH
WCPO-TV, 9, Cincinnati, OH
WKRC-TV, 12, Cincinnati, OH
+WSTR-TV, 64, Cincinnati, OH

For Greene County :

Greene
WDTN, 2, Dayton, OH (formerly WLWD)
WHIO-TV, 7, Dayton, OH
WKEF, 22, Dayton, OH
+WRGT-TV, 45, Dayton, OH
WCPO-TV, 9, Cincinnati, OH
WKRC-TV, 12, Cincinnati, OH

-------------

Note: It says this in the description of the list :

:quote
...... "Stations with a plus sign (+) under individual counties are those
stations added to the list after the publication of the Commision’s original 1972 list. See Reconsideration of the Cable Television Report and Order, 36 FCC 2d 326 (1972). Stations listed with a pound sign (#) have been the subject of application of the Commission’s exclusivity rules and are subject to programming deletions in the indicated communities."
:end quote

I don't see any "#" signs next to any of those, so, unless there are breakdowns for individual communties in Montgomery county not on the list, it might appear that perhaps the stations/cablecos/etc. may be handling those network "exclusivity" issues more on their own (it is really involving an agreement between the station+it's network, not really between the FCC+the station/etc) .....

Like I think I said before, I would imagine this sort of thing is quite "tricky" for the Cincinnati+Dayton area, since the 2 markets are so close together ...


I have been told by employees of WHIO that their current truck is 25 years old (sorry, can't research that one for you Nitewatchman).


Very cute. Sounds like you've already done enough research on that on to me.

Right now WXIX has to black out those games but WRGT doesn't.

Yes, I'd also like to see more of this sort of thing : what I also especially like is when WRGT-DT has steeler games, as WXIX doesn't allways have those. The more HD games available OTA the better, IMO.

And, just to keep this related to TV, any word on if WHIO will get a new truck or start renting a truck for the UD games? I have been told by employees of WHIO that their current truck is 25 years old Would this be the red, very customized truck/van that is usually parked near the end of their parking lot on Wilmington ?? It does look like 1970's era truck/van chassis but I'd guess the equipment inside has been replaced and/or upgraded since they first rec'd it.

Would this be the red, very customized truck/van that is usually parked near the end of their parking lot on Wilmington ?? It does look like 1970's era truck/van chassis but I'd guess the equipment inside has been replaced and/or upgraded since they first rec'd it.

That would be the one... obviously I've never been in it, but I'm told the equipment in there is from the late 80's/early 90's... I'd believe it since I generally watch "Hairpiece" Hartsock for most of the UD games on WHIO and see how poor the production quality is.

obviously I've never been in it, but I'm told the equipment in there is from the late 80's/early 90's... I'd believe it since I generally watch "Hairpiece" Hartsock for most of the UD games on WHIO and see how poor the production quality is.

What sort of specific equipment upgrades(well other than HD upgrades) do you think they would need to improve the production quality ?

UD games do look pretty awful these days, but, I don't seem to recall that being the case, say 10 years ago. Now, WKEF/WRGT news definitely has that "70's video TV quality" look to it ....

What sort of specific equipment upgrades(well other than HD upgrades) do you think they would need to improve the production quality ?

UD games do look pretty awful these days, but, I don't seem to recall that being the case, say 10 years ago. Now, WKEF/WRGT news definitely has that "70's video TV quality" look to it ....

Here are the 1st four things I do...

1st- I start with getting new equipment to properly transmit the video and audio stream back to the station (remove the blue lines from what appears to be transmission encoding problems). WXIX in Cincinnat uses fiberoptics to bring the signal back to their station for broadcast, WHIO should maybe look into something like this if their issues are due to microwave interference.

2nd- get some better graphics, the current ones used look like they are from 1987.

3rd- mic up some of the crowd, as all we get to hear is the microphone for the announcers. This is very evident when UD plays UC and both WXIX and WHIO produce the game and show it, as WXIX does a great job of getting some crowd noise/atmosphere into their production.

4th- Although not an equipment problem (actually, it could be a non-user friendly graphic machine), get someone who can add the points to the score right away. Sometimes it takes them 15-20 seconds after a basket is made to update their score graphic.

Here are the 1st four things I do...

1st- I start with getting new equipment to properly transmit the video and audio stream back to the station (remove the blue lines from what appears to be transmission encoding problems). WXIX in Cincinnat uses fiberoptics to bring the signal back to their station for broadcast, WHIO should maybe look into something like this if their issues are due to microwave interference.


Sounds expensive. Are they currently using analog NTSC or digital(MPEG2 transport stream/etc) for the remote ?

On a few occasions a few years ago, WDTN must have been having some problems with their STL and WCPO STL must have been using the same frequenecy, as on a few occasions for a few hours several years ago, I had seen WCPO broadcast over the air through WDTN's transmitter ...

Also, What is the situation concerning the "wiring"(or fiber)for the camera posistions in place at the venue? Could that also be an issue involved, and Does WHIO have control over that?

I think WXIX has aired some pretty poor looking productions for UC games as of late as well, which also hasn't usually been the case in the past.

Hello! I'm up in Huber, trying to get OTA Dayton (just interesting in Dayton) channels in HD. I've run through several hardware iterations and am looking for some input please.

What I've got:
TV: KD-30XS955 (internal HDTV tuner)
Antenna: The Terk amplified antenna, HDTVA (like the silver sensor)
Cable: RG-59

Where I am:
Distance 9.5-11 miles from the antennas
215/216 degrees (I've got a little camping compass I use to point)
I'm about 2/3rds of the way into a valley, but it is wide (bottoming at the river that parallels 75) and I'm on the far side. I've got no large buildings (I'm in a one story), although there is a large wooded area about 100 yards away, between my house and the broadcast antennas.


I use the antenna to signal the HDTV, a PC, and smaller analog TV. I've got splitters that boost the gain, but are not powered. The antenna is in the attic along with the amp (before any splitters). My analog signals are great, no ghosting, no complaints, on all TV's. In general my HDTV reception is outstanding. I tried another tv before this one and all my signal strenghts were up past the 75% on all channels and fairly steady (except for the occasional signal drops as described later). My current TV doesn't give signal strength, so I don't know. However most channels come in great all the time (22, 26, 45), 7 give me some trouble some time (fairly rare) , and 16, 2 give me trouble somewhat frequently. The "trouble" is relatively minor, I guess, but annoying. I'll be watching for an hour, then I will lose the signal for a few seconds. Sometimes it happens more often and for longer. But it is intermittent and the no signal goes away in a matter of minutes at worst. TV is certainly watchable, but frustrating.

Any idea what is causing this? Is it the dreaded "echo" problem? I mean usually the signal strength is good. This problem seems worse with bad weather and high wind, which I don't understand.

Some options I'm considering:
1) Running RG6 from from the antenna, I could do it with a little effort and money, but would it do anything for me?
2) Buying a Silver Sensor? Is it really that much better? How do I pick up my analog signal?
3) Buying some other antenna? I'm willing to go up to $150. I cannot put it outside however. But it would go in the attic, so asthetics are not a concern.
4) Use a powered splitter instead of the antenna amp? Note that I tried using a powered split along with the amp and it completely washed out the signal. Is there a variable power inline amplifier out there?

Any other ideas suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you all in advance.

That would be the one... obviously I've never been in it, but I'm told the equipment in there is from the late 80's/early 90's... I'd believe it since I generally watch "Hairpiece" Hartsock for most of the UD games on WHIO and see how poor the production quality is.
Dude...

A couple years back WHIO put (may have the name somewhat wrong) Darnell Haskins (a CJ Standout) as a sideline reporter for UD games. He would wear a headset that looked like the first headphones ever invented. They were HUGE. I think there was an antenna coming from one side! Reminded me of old footage that you see of reporters on the floor at political conventions in the 1960's!

Funny stuff...

Is it the dreaded "echo" problem?I mean usually the signal strength is good.

Multipath echoes Probably most likely your main issue.

Keep in mind, the "meters" on our receivers usually tell us very little about signal strength. They usually are looking at the datastream and not the OTA signal itself, and are usually best thought of as "signal quality" meters. The signal could be strong, and you could get low readings(for various reasons) or the signal could be relatively weak, but "clean" and you can get high readings.

If all the Dayton analog stations are clear(if low power 40 is snowy that's to be expected), the signal strength from the digital stations is likely allways good. But, yes, it may drop to "0" when multipath which is uncorrectable by receiver is present, even though the signal could actually be still strong. Uncorrectable multipath is just seen as "noise" by the receiver ...


This problem seems worse with bad weather and high wind, which I don't understand.


Wind blows the tree limbs around, and that can change the dynamic multipath conditions, which are particularly difficult for our receivers to handle.

Also, from what I have seen if you have terrain or a lot of trees in the signal path, signals on higher frequencies(channels)/shorter wavelengths can be attenuated more than lower frequencies, and I think it may be possible in these cases those shorter wavelentghs may even be more easily "disturbed" by dynamic multipath changes for various reasons ....


My analog signals are great, no ghosting, no complaints, on all TV's.


Multipath(seen as ghosts on analog) can often be VERY frequency specific. The digital stations transmit on different channels, they only remap to virtual channels so they show up on your receiver right next to the analog station. For Dayton stations follows are the analog channels, with the actual digital channels used for transmission in parentheses : 2(50), 7(41), 16(58), 22(51), 26(18), 45(30).

So, while you may not have any ghosts on Channel 16 analog, IF for instance the analog station were transmitting on channel 58(where the digital station transmits), it might be just full of ghosts, even if it were transmitting from the same tower/antenna height/etc.


Some options I'm considering:
1) Running RG6 from from the antenna, I could do it with a little effort and money, but would it do anything for me?


Probably not, since the signals should already be strong, and the amp(which is not a good idea if the signals are very strong) should compensate for the little bit of extra loss with RG59, and your splitters.

Wouldn't hurt though either. Especially if you change antennas+use one without a preamp, it would probably be a good idea.


2) Buying a Silver Sensor? Is it really that much better? How do I pick up my analog signal?


I don't know if it would be any better or not, looks like the HDTVa(or HDTVi) use the same design for UHF(log perodic), so one would think it wouldn't be any better. However, difficult to say whether or not the amp is a good idea or not. Preamps can overload and create intermodulation distortion(extra "noise" basically) and cause problems. I sort of doubt you're having that issue, however, as for instance High winds/etc wouldn't make it worse ...

If you use the UHF silver sensor, for the VHF analogs(2+7), you would want to use a VHF/UHF joiner(such as CM#0549) to combine it with VHF "rabbit ears".


3) Buying some other antenna? I'm willing to go up to $150. I cannot put it outside however. But it would go in the attic, so asthetics are not a concern.


You could purchase a outdoor antenna with more gain+directivity and use it in your attic. The better directivity an antenna has, the better it can "reject" multipath issues, but keep in mind, attics especially can be multipath nightmares ... If you want all the dayton analog+digital stations, the largest/highest gain/most directional VHF/UHF outdoor antenna of conventional design that will fit+that you can "move around" a bit to find a "sweet spot"/etc might be a good idea. That still might not be enough though, and you might need to put the antenna outside for best chances at 100% reliable reception from all the stations you want to watch.

I know you said you couldn't do that, but that might be what you need to do if you want the best reception and no dropouts. Keep in mind, while some restrictions on placement and height(12' above roofline) are allowed, and there can be exceptions for military "on base" housing or sites of national historic significance, otherwise -- no matter what their "restrictions" say, HOA's(or any other party) can't legally prohibit you from installing antenna outdoors on property you own or control. See here for the facts on this : http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html


4) Use a powered splitter instead of the antenna amp? Note that I tried using a powered split along with the amp and it completely washed out the signal. Is there a variable power inline amplifier out there?


Wouldn't mess with the powered splitter, unless perhaps you aren't using an amp otherwise. Don't know how the preamp "works" on the HDTVa, but if it's power inserter is "seperate", you'll block the power to the amp if anything is between the power inserter and the amp(in the antenna I assume). If that's not the case, and the power supply for the antenna "plugs in" right at the antenna, adding a 2nd amplifer is likely to only make intermod/overload issues much worse -- hence why the signals would have "washed out" when you used the amp ....

You can't just "turn off" the amp in the antenna I don't think, unless they've done something different with the HDTVa. If it isn't powered, the circut's in the amplifier will GREATLY attenuate signals, much moreso than if you were using a unamplified version of the antenna.

Keep in mind, you are not "increasing", or "boosting" the amount of signal the antenna can receive when you are using an amp -- A preamp is only benefical to :

#1). compensate from feedline losses or losses from Splitting the signal.

#2). The amp set's the NF(noise figure) for your entire receive system (front-end of receiver) and if it's a high quality amp, it can make the noise figure much less than what is the case for your receiver alone .. Typically, High qulaity mast-mount preamps today have a noise figure around 2~3db, while our DTV receivers Noise figure(without an amp) are running about 7~10db or so. So, A 5~7db improvement with a high quality preamp(about 3db NF) over the 1st stage of receiver setting your system noise figure means a 5~7db or so increase in SNR (signal noise ratio).

I have no idea what the NF for the HDTVa amp is, bit I'd guess it's probably not as low as quality preamps from Channel master or winegard. I don't know what the specs on it's max input levels are either, it may or may not be easily "overloaded" ..... If it is being "overloaded" that's probably not going to help the "noise figure" of your system either, at least on certian channels, as intermod is also very 'frequency" specific issue ...


Any other ideas suggestions would be GREATLY appreciated. Thank you all in advance.

Best thing I could think of to suggest is try to find a "sweet spot" for reception by moving the antenna around, either in the attic, or elsewhere. The attic may not be the best spot for it either, near a window that faces the towers might be a better spot, for instance.


I've got splitters that boost the gain, but are not powered.


Passive Splitters don't boost the gain, they "attenuate" it. Each two way splitter causes about 3.5db of loss -- each 3.5db loss is cutting the signal in half -- that may sound like a lot, but it usually isn't much as db scale is logarhytmic. At your distance, you should be in City grade contour of the stations, which would be about 90~120dbu or so signal strentgh(that's assuming an outdoor directional antenna with 10db gain - you can generally assume about -20db attenuation by having the antenna indoors) .... For UHF DTV signals, you only need 41dbu signal, which should roughly equate to about 16db SNR at the receiver, the very "threshold" of reception ... Below 16db SNR or so, you'd get a "blank screen" ....

BTW, in your case with indoor antenna/etc, having an amp is probably a good idea since you are splitting the signal. And, I think you should be OK with the antenna indoors, but keep in mind "splitting" the signal won't keep strong signals from overloading the amp(although, add'l atteunation in feedline from splitters or atteunators can help if the tuner is being overloaded if output from amp is "too much") ..... sometimes, it can be a bit of a 'balancing act" with these things, but again, with indoor antenna I don't think you'd have to worry too much about preamp overload issues, just thought I'd mention them to be as "complete" as possible response to your questions ...

Hope some of this helps, let us know how it goes ....

You can't just "turn off" the amp in the antenna I don't think, unless they've done something different with the HDTVa. If it isn't powered, the circut's in the amplifier will GREATLY attenuate signals, much moreso than if you were using a unamplified version of the antenna. The HDTVa's manual mentions turning the "Power Injector" either on or off, as needed.

The "trouble" is relatively minor, I guess, but annoying. I'll be watching for an hour, then I will lose the signal for a few seconds. Sometimes it happens more often and for longer. But it is intermittent and the no signal goes away in a matter of minutes at worst. Hmmm, you live between Dayton International Airport and WPAFB.... Take your pick.... Next time it happens, go outside and look west. See any airplanes ?? If the dropout coincides with house-trembling vibrations and deep, powerful jet engine noise, I'd suspect those massive-a** C5's that are now housed at WPAFB are your problem.

What I've got:
TV: KD-30XS955 (internal HDTV tuner)
........ My current TV doesn't give signal strength, so I don't know.


Almost forgot ... don't know if it's the same or not on your TV, but in case it is I have KD-34XBR960 here and it has a pretty good "signal info" screen, although it's a bit hidden and not where you would expect it to be -- It only works for digital stations(OTA, and it would probably work to some extent for QAM via cable as well), and can be found in user MENU/APPLICATIONS/DIAGNOSTICS.

Also -- Welcome to AVSforum!

The HDTVa's manual mentions turning the "Power Injector" either on or off, as needed.

Wonder how they have that set up, and if it actually works as well with "power injector off" as it would with a unamplfied version of antenna ... ?


Hmmm, you live between Dayton International Airport and WPAFB.... Take your pick.... Next time it happens, go outside and look west. See any airplanes ?? If the dropout coincides with house-trembling vibrations and deep, powerful jet engine noise, I'd suspect those massive-a** C5's that are now housed at WPAFB are your problem.


Yes, Aircraft can also be a signficant issue involving dynamic multipath ... FWIW, in my case, aircraft flying over can cause fluttery ghosts to analog signals, but I've yet to see a dropout occur because of it with digital OTA .... YMMV of course, especially as where he is in Huber heights might put the flight paths involving West end of the WPAFB strip right in path to the towers ....

The HDTVa's manual mentions turning the "Power Injector" either on or off, as needed.

Does it say in there what that is actually for, and what it does exactly? Or can anyone with a HDTVa check this out to see ?

Turning power injector "off" could be there for powering the amp via the coax from power supplied by a STB instead of via the power supply("inserter" or "injector") included with the antenna, such as from a satellite receiver. With use of the appropriate dixpleors/etc, Some amplified antennas(such as certian winegard "sensar" models) can also be powered via the coax just like the LNB on the dish is powered via DC current supplied via the coax. Mast mount preamps used with outdoor antennas are powered via the coax, with the power "injector" located inside so it can be plugged into A/C. Some can also be powered from a sat receiver instead, and some can't. My winegard preamps use 15~19 VAC for instance and can't be powered by a Satellite receiver.

To effectively "turn off" or "turn on" the amp, The "off" posistion would have to cause the the signal from antenna to "be rerouted" "around" the amp, directly to the feedline. Otherwise, the semiconductors in the amp would greatly atteunate signals if they are unpowered, unless they've found some sort of other way "around" this. Again, don't know about the HDTVa, but all the antennas with internal amps I've ever seen are like this -- you have to have the amp powered for it to really "work", otherwise you'll attenate signals by about -40~-60db or more ....

Okay, I rec'd my OTA receiver today. It's a Samsung SIR-TS160. It's officially a DirecTV HD receiver that also does OTA digital and doesn't require D* service to work in OTA-only mode.

With the Terk HDTVi (unamplified) sitting in the middle of the living room floor, pointed in the general direction it needs to point, I picked up (2) WDTN channels, (1) WHIO, (5) WPTD, (1) WKEF (*), (1) WBDT, (1) 27-5 (??? ... I've seen others mention this one back haven't went back to see what it is yet), and (1) WRGT (*).

The antenna, disappointingly, but not unexpectedly, didn't work well at all behind the TV. It also wouldn't work behind the love seat in the corner (shooting through one wall and aluminum siding). It's currently on my little component stand, somewhat hidden behind a lamp and picture frames.

I know the built-in signal meters are questionable as to what they mean, but I get 93% for WDTN, 100% for WHIO, and 77% for all of the rest.

I haven't tried the $4 bowtie from Radio Shack yet, hanging in the front window, as suggested here. I really think it might work well but I hate to have wasted my money on the HDTVi antenna.

(* With the antenna in it's current, and possibly permanent location, both WKEF and WRGT are acting up. Besides being "owned" by the same company, do they share broadcasting equipment too that's affecting both at the same time ??)

Flipping between WPTD's HD feed OTA and TW's feed, I can see absolutely no difference. The D* box is hooked up with DVI while the TW is hooked up with component.

I'll compare the other channels later on...

(1) 27-5 (??? ... I've seen others mention this one back haven't went back to see what it is yet),


You're getting all 6 of the Dayton digital stations+HD or SD multicast services. 27.5 is a virtual channel coming from WRGT-DT, same thing you are are getting on 45-1. Right now, you'll see the "Fox45" bug on both. It's Some sort of issue with their PSIP tables causing 2 virutal channels to exist for a single program service, as it should just be showing up on 45-1.


(* With the antenna in it's current, and possibly permanent location, both WKEF and WRGT are acting up. Besides being "owned" by the same company, do they share broadcasting equipment too that's affecting both at the same time ??)

2 stations can't share the "exact" same equipment, although from what I understand from their engineers both stations are using similar equipment - (such as the MPEG2 encoders) excepting the equipment needed for FOX HD(splicer/etc) and ABC HD.

How exactly are they "acting up?" Is it a reception issue or something else? If the signal quality meter is "bouncing around" and/or your getting dropouts(losing both audio+video at the same time) it's a reception issue(probably multipath) and you'll probably need to find a better posisting for your antenna. WRGT-DT, WKEF-DT, WBDT-DT, WRGT analog and WBDT analog all transmit from the same tower, it's the one with the crossmember+three visable masts on top.

For what it is worth, other than the improper PSIP+duplicate "27.5" from WRGT-DT, I'm not seeing any issues from either WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT right now, however as I mentioned in a recent post, from WKEF-DT, on one receiver here - Zenith HDV420(not the other 2) I've been getting the "dropped frames"/stuttering video issue which has also occured in the past during ABC HD programming from Film sources(or HD 1080 - 24p) sources for about the last week. that has also in the past occured before from WRGT-DT during certain, non-fox programming.

Wow, great info, thanks for all the responses.

Found the signal strength under diagnostics, thanks.

The amp does have an on/off, but I don't have the slightest idea how it functions internally. Also, it is not hard connected, I can remove it and still use the antenna.

However, it sounds like my concerns were right, more "umph" is not going to help, I'm stuck with the dreaded multi-path.

You think if I bring it downstairs and put it in front of the window, I have a good chance of better results? I'll try it tomorrow. The worst part is that in general the signal is good, so it's hard to see if its now working, or just not "multipathed" right now.

I rent, so I've got a whole different set of rules. I might be able to get away with putting up something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009W9WHQ/sr=8-6/qid=1140828539/ref=pd_bbs_6/102-1531156-4054569?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Essentially an outdoor version of what I have. Would you expect much improvement on the multipath from that?


We do have frequent air traffic from the airport, not so much from WPAFB out this far.

Thanks again!

I've got WRGT on and the signal meter is bouncing from 77% to 79% to 86%, back down, and so on. WHIO has been on for 5+ minutes and the meter is pegged at 100% and stays there. WDTN is at 93% ... and stays there (did see it jump to 100% once).

The Olympics did just come on on WDTN and woah !! It looks incredible !! I guess I've gotten used to the piss-poor analog version lately.

WRGT is still doing fine. Do they do anything differently after 8pm ??

I rent, so I've got a whole different set of rules. I might be able to get away with putting up something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009W9WHQ/sr=8-6/qid=1140828539/ref=pd_bbs_6/102-1531156-4054569?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Essentially an outdoor version of what I have. Would you expect much improvement on the multipath from that? I'm not sure you really need an amplified antenna at your distance. You could also get something a LOT less expensive than that. Something like this, http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032205&parentPage=search&kw=antenna&parentPage=family, might be small enough that you could discretely mount it. I've often wondered if you can do what people do with satellite dishes in apartments by mounting them on a pole in a bucket of cement.

Radio Shack has (2) outdoor, amplified antennas, one for $50 and one for $75.

Found the signal strength under diagnostics, thanks.


What sort of readings are you getting for stations for the "signal" bar, "SNR" reading, and especially "AGC" reading? Given the same ATSC receivers+tuners may be used in our Sony sets(I think it's using a ATI chipset) That might tell me a little more about the signal strengths your dealing with.

To really find out anything about signal strength, though -- you'll want to add addittional attenuation into feedline and see how MUCH extra attenuation it takes before you drop below the threshold required for reception. When doing this, you can look at the info in that diagnostics screen and see the "effects"(which are probably going to be a little different than you might expect) Having about 10db or so of extra "fade margin" is probably a good idea. You can add splitters, but the $9 variable attenuator (up to -20db) radio shack has is especially useful for this.

The amp does have an on/off, but I don't have the slightest idea how it functions internally. Also, it is not hard connected, I can remove it and still use the antenna.


Thanks for the info ... I am interested in case this comes up again elsewhere ... all I'd probably really need to know is if you turn the amp "off", and don't use any splitters, how much difference is there with the Dayton analog signals compared to having the amp hooked up? If it's not much difference, or little or no snow, then it would most definitely be the case that the circuitry in the amp is really being "bypassed". Which of course does make sense for a "settop" type antenna to have such a feature, although it's not common.

Oh, I didn't answer your one question from earlier -- Variable inline(distribution amps) -- Yeah, there are some out there, but I don't think they are generally recommended. I have one here somewhere from RS with 4 output ports(it's a old model, but think they have a new one as well), and it's a fairly noisy amp that's perhaps somewhat easily overloaded, but the "variable gain" does work if sending too strong a signal to the TV's tuner may be an issue. You could just about get the same thing from adding a variable attenuator(about $9 from RS up to -20db) to a "non-variable" amp, though.


However, it sounds like my concerns were right, more "umph" is not going to help, I'm stuck with the dreaded multi-path.


yeah, probably so. Also, in addition to if your getting some sort of signal from WRCX-LP 40 Analog -- WBDT-DT (WB HD) transmits with significantly less power than the others, so if you're getting that one OK, more "umph" probably isn't something that will help.


You think if I bring it downstairs and put it in front of the window, I have a good chance of better results?


Could be, you'll just have to try it and see -- hard to say -- with this sort of thing there can be "hot spots" and "cold spots" for this sort of thing that could be anywhere .... Hard to say exactly where the "sweet spots" might be ...


The worst part is that in general the signal is good, so it's hard to see if its now working, or just not "multipathed" right now.


yeah, since it's so intermittant that would be difficult. Just changing the aim slightly(sometimes when multipath is involved aiming right "at the towers" is not allways best) or moving it a few inches left or right or up or down from it's current posistion might even make a big difference. And, things might change as well when the leaves come on and the multipath conditions change a bit. Since you can't really lug that TV into your attic with you, if you could make use of an "assitant" and or a set of 2 way radios/etc that might help when your "adjusting" the antenna ...


I rent, so I've got a whole different set of rules.


Those rules cover renters as well, as is mentioned in the link I provided. Just depends on "what" you are renting concerning how limited your possibilities might be for mounting posistions - you're limited to property that's under your "control". such as If it's an apartment, the balcony. If you're renting a house, I don't think you'd be too limited in where you could put the antenna, other than for safety and proper installation concerns. Proper grounding isn't covered by those rules, but grounding to NEC is a good idea, and may be necessary from a "code violoations" standpoint ... Townhouse or condo -- as far as the roof goes, just depends on what is considered property under your control, and what is considered "common area" ... All the details you'd need should be available from that link I provided from FCC site.


I might be able to get away with putting up something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009W9WHQ/sr=8-6/qid=1140828539/ref=pd_bbs_6/102-1531156-4054569?%5Fencoding=UTF8


While I do agree with hall concerning the antenna he mentioned, and the price and performance/etc ---- Only thing is, it(RS U-75R) is UHF only which is perfect in Dayton for the digital stations which all transmit on UHF(and looks like it will remain that way after analog shut off), but you'd probably want a small VHF/UHF combo antenna such as RS VU-75R or VU-90R since you said you want good reception of the analog VHF stations as well.

Otherwise, I do think The antenna in your link actually looks pretty cool, and actually(an unamplfied version might be a better choice for some folks in especially strong signal locations though - maybe even for you, although again there's that "balance" thing and how many times you'll be splitting the signal/etc) should work very well I'd think for many folks for a small outdoor antenna in medium~strong signal locations. The UHF section on it - a log periodic design really isn't "snake oil", it's a really good antenna design ... The VHF is not really anything much more than rabbit ears, but that is often more than enough for VHF ....


Essentially an outdoor version of what I have. Would you expect much improvement on the multipath from that?


Very likely, still might be important to find a "hot spot" to place it for good reception and "minimal multipath, though. In other words, before mounting the antenna outdoors permanetly, check a few spots where you could mount the antenna first "temporarily". In addition to attenuating signals greatly, Everything near the antenna becomes "connected" to it, which is especially an issue from indoors.

You might want to just try your current antenna "temporarily outside and see what happens, first -- Just sit it on a chair or bench or something(or even sitting on the ground would probably be better than indoors) ....

I've got WRGT on and the signal meter is bouncing from 77% to 79% to 86%, back down, and so on. WHIO has been on for 5+ minutes and the meter is pegged at 100% and stays there. WDTN is at 93% ... and stays there (did see it jump to 100% once).


Just bouncing around that much shouldn't be a problem -- unless it's accompnied by dropouts as well, which I wouldn't think would be the case ... If it bounces below the reading normally required to have signal lock however, then you'll see dropouts as that's below "threshold"


The Olympics did just come on on WDTN and woah !! It looks incredible !! I guess I've gotten used to the piss-poor analog version lately.


Yeah, it's looked pretty good for the most part, as did Daytona 500 last weekend.


WRGT is still doing fine. Do they do anything differently after 8pm ??

Yeah, FOX HD, or any fox programming is done differently -- it bypasses the local encoder althougher via Fox's HD "splicer" distribution system. SD Fox programming is upconverted at network level+sent over the same feed.

With Fox(it's a unique situation only applicable to fox), The HD is encoded at the Network level, that stream is "spliced into" the local stream at the affilate. This bypasses the local encoder - although the splicer, via a command from the network DOES insert the local "Fox45" bug from WRGT-DT, but "magically" does it by not having to actually decode the stream. There is no decoding and reencoding process at the station, The stream is encoded at the network, and isn't DECODED again until it reaches your receiver(or cable STB).

Luckily, there are some Fox engineers who post on AVSforum who went into great detail when Fox was developing and implementing HD "splicer system"
at the affilates. I also happened to be on the phone with WRGT engineer on one of the days(in summer 2004) the crew contracted by Fox was at WRGT installing their HD splicer, and we had talked about it a bit ...

I'm curious though what sorts of issues you were getting with them, earlier? Was it perhaps "stuttering video" perhaps but the audio was OK? Are you getting that via your TW STB as well? You might want to contact WRGT/WKEF and tell them what you're getting, what programs your seeing it on, and what your receiver model is.

Update:

I've often wondered if you can do what people do with satellite dishes in apartments by mounting them on a pole in a bucket of cement.


Sure you can. All sorts of things you can do. Usually a good idea to properly ground mast+coax runs however to NEC (those grounds need to be bonded to main A/C service ground as well)

BTW -- I updated my last post in response to campjjae a bit after I'd read your post ... I agree with you about the cost/performance(and lack of amplifier for strong signal location usually a good idea) concerning the RS antenna .. However, it's UHF only, and I think campjjae said he was interested in using his antenna for good reception of analog 2+7 as well, as I think he said he had a analog only TV he was using currently. So, he'd want a VHF/UHF combo antenna, such as RS-VU 75/VU-90, and those are about 8Feet wide for the low-VHF elements ... And, so that's where that terk antenna(albeit a non-amplfied version might be a better idea) might seem more "attractive", and both it's UHF section, and it's VHF section (little more than rabbit ears) would probably be sufficent ...

Those rules cover renters as well, as is mentioned in the link I provided. If you're renting a house, I don't think you'd be too limited in where you could put the antenna... If I were the landlord and wanted to be a pr*ck about things, I might take issue with various mounting arrangements that might be req'd, especially if they involve drilling holes into *anything*. Also, how do you get the cabling into the house without drilling a hole ??

As far as I'm concerned, a renter has the option of an indoor antenna, one in the attic, or using the bucket of cement option.

Just bouncing around that much shouldn't be a problem -- unless it's accompnied by dropouts as well, which I wouldn't think would be the case ... I'm curious though what sorts of issues you were getting with them, earlier? Was it perhaps "stuttering video" perhaps but the audio was OK? Are you getting that via your TW STB as well? You might want to contact WRGT/WKEF and tell them what you're getting, what programs your seeing it on, and what your receiver model is.
Before 8pm, it was much, much more frequent. After 8pm, it almost stopped, but then it showed up a bit again. The meter was still bouncing between those same (3) values, then I got pixellation (or once or twice, freeze), and audio and video dropout (blank screen and then the box then said "Searching for signal..."). When it dropped off, the signal meter screen went away.
Yeah, FOX HD, or any fox programming is done differently -- it bypasses the local encoder althougher via Fox's HD "splicer" distribution system. SD Fox programming is upconverted at network level+sent over the same feed. I meant more in relation to signal strength. Showing my lack of knowledge in this stuff, almost as if they turned up the power during primetime.

If I were the landlord and wanted to be a pr*ck about things, I might take issue with various mounting arrangements that might be req'd, especially if they involve drilling holes into *anything*. Also, how do you get the cabling into the house without drilling a hole ??

As far as I'm concerned, a renter has the option of an indoor antenna, one in the attic, or using the bucket of cement option.

But, You're not the FCC or the law, and while there can be restrictions allowed for placement of antenna(as long as reception isn't hindered - and that would include if he was interested in Receving Cincinnati stations, as he's within their signal contour/coverage area), restrictions such as you mention are not really allowable or enforceable under the rules. As far as drilling holes and such are concerned, I didn't look for that in the regs, but I'd guess they are brought up somewhere.

Hopefully, the landlord or owner would be a little more understanding and coorperative about it than it seems you would be, and the renter would be cooperative as well concerning where the landlord/owner would allow holes to be drilled/etc, given a well done and planned "professional" installation. Just depends on the circumstances, I suppose.

Or, are you saying It also wouldn't be OK for cable or sat installer to drill holes to get the cable feed in the house? What's the difference?

BTW, see my updates to last post concerning the RS antenna you mentioned ....

what is the purpose of "Significantly Viewed TV Stations" - the way I read it.. I should be able to get those stations from my service provider.. ie.. Directv.. yes no?

Before 8pm, it was much, much more frequent. After 8pm, it almost stopped, but then it showed up a bit again. The meter was still bouncing between those same (3) values, then I got pixellation (or once or twice, freeze), and audio and video dropout (blank screen and then the box then said "Searching for signal..."). When it dropped off, the signal meter screen went away.
I meant more in relation to signal strength. Showing my lack of knowledge in this stuff, almost as if they turned up the power during primetime.

#1). Likely multipath. Interference could be possibly another issue involved - but you'd probably see that elsewhere as well, as it would probably be electrical interference from nearby appliances/etc(which would effect lower frequencies, especially VHF more).

I haven't seen any issues with their transmission here, and I've had a TV and receiver tuned to WRGT-DT I can see out of corner of my eye while I'm working since you first mentioned it at around 7:30pm. I've seen No differences here in their signal over that time, and as allways, no dropouts. . Solid 97~100% on the signal quality meter as allways from WRGT-DT ...


#2)They are required(at all times they are on the air)to operate at the power levels and with the facilites as specified in their operating permit from FCC. In this case, it would involve their "license to cover" which they filed for their full power construction permit in Summer 2005 - that's operation at 425KW ERP with a certian antenna height/antenna pattern/etc. Only exception would be if they had techincal difficulties, and required a tempory permit to operate at lessser power/etc.

what is the purpose of "Significantly Viewed TV Stations" - the way I read it.. I should be able to get those stations from my service provider.. ie.. Directv.. yes no?

some of that stuff definitely gets confusing ...

IF and only if those stations have an agreement with DirecTV for carriage you'd think so for the listing for your county/location off that list ... but I don't know for sure what all the specifics would be for any given provider(there could even be technical limitations involved and allowed for instance), or in any given "localized" circumstances/etc ....

Didn't someone here, or in Cincinnati thread a couple of months ago post some info saying that the significantly viewed stations from one or the other markets was "soon coming" to DirecTV for his location?

As far as drilling holes and such are concerned, I didn't look for that in the regs, but I'd guess they are brought up somewhere.

Hopefully, the landlord or owner would be a little more understanding and coorperative about it than it seems you would be... From the FCC page linked above:

If I live in a condominium or an apartment building, does this rule apply to me?

(snip) the rule would not apply to restrictions that prevent drilling through the exterior wall of a condominium or rental unit and thus restrictions may prohibit installation that requires such drilling.

Any reasonable person can include a rented home in that also. The main issue being "property that you don't own", in my opinion.
Or, are you saying It also wouldn't be OK for cable or sat installer to drill holes to get the cable feed in the house? What's the difference? I said no such thing nor did I imply any such thing.

some of that stuff definitely gets confusing ... It was maybe a year ago or so that people in southern Montgomery County, and only certain addresses or zip codes, didn't "qualify" for Dayton locals in DirecTV's system. Let me search DDN's archives for the story. I also seem to recall it being on WDTN, in fact, as a "consumer alert" type story.

Sig SNR AGC

WDTN: 80-90 24-25 16-17

WHIO: 65-85 20-28 20

WPTD: 60-80 19-23 26-27

WKEF: 98 31-32 18

WB: 92-98 28-29 18

WGRT: 98 30-31 18


Analog 40 is fuzzy but watchable.

The antenna I linked to has the same UHF unit as the one I have now, but is an outdoor unit.

Just for reasons of good renter/rentee relationships, I'm going to choose not to do much to the exterior. I've got cable lines outside the building I've already spliced into to send the signal throughout the house, so I could do that. Mounting something relatively small and discrete in a carefull fashion might be alright. My preference would be to stay indoors.

Thanks!

(edit: so much for the formating, sorry)

I knew this might happen, but I'd better "test" things a bit more first. I hung that $4 bowtie antenna in my front window, west-facing, and am already getting higher numbers than with the HDTVi....

From the FCC page linked above:

If I live in a condominium or an apartment building, does this rule apply to me?

(snip) the rule would not apply to restrictions that prevent drilling through the exterior wall of a condominium or rental unit and thus restrictions may prohibit installation that requires such drilling.

Any reasonable person can include a rented home in that also. The main issue being "property that you don't own", in my opinion.


Snipping out some important and relevant stuff there aren't you? First off, sometimes(but not allways, especially in an apartment or condo) there are ways to get the coax through without drilling a hole if necessary.

You should have read down a little farther. While I agree it's possible a restriction which would not allow a tenant of a rented home to drill a hole through the wall may be allowable under the rules - as is explained(note the *may*, and *could be* however) here, in this section from the fact sheet :

quote :

Q: Are there restrictions that may be placed on residents of rental property?

A: Yes. A restriction necessary to prevent damage to leased property may be reasonable. For example, tenants could be prohibited from drilling holes through exterior walls or through the roof.

:end quote

Nevertheless, FCC is being very specific about this in the portion of the fact sheet you quoted for good reason. Does it say that specifically about a rented home in the section you quoted? Here's what it says in another place about this concerning WHY a restriction in drilling a hole in an apartment or condo may be allowable :

Quote:

Drilling through an exterior wall, e.g. to run the cable from the patio into the unit, is generally not within the protection of the rule because the exterior wall is generally a common element.

:end quote:

Here's as little more of it for your reading pleasure - pay close attention now :

Quote from OTARD fact sheet :

Q: Does the rule apply to residents of rental property?

A: Yes. Effective January 22, 1999, renters may install antennas within their leasehold, which means inside the dwelling or on outdoor areas that are part of the tenant's leased space and which are under the exclusive use or control of the tenant. Typically, for apartments, these areas include balconies, balcony railings, and terraces. For rented single family homes or manufactured homes which sit on rented property, these areas include the home itself and patios, yards, gardens or other similar areas. If renters do not have access to these outside areas, the tenant may install the antenna inside the rental unit. Renters are not required to obtain the consent of the landlord prior to installing an antenna in these areas. The rule does not apply to common areas, such as the roof or the exterior walls of an apartment building. Generally, balconies or patios that are shared with other people or are accessible from other units are not considered to be exclusive use areas.

Q: Are there restrictions that may be placed on residents of rental property?

A: Yes. A restriction necessary to prevent damage to leased property may be reasonable. For example, tenants could be prohibited from drilling holes through exterior walls or through the roof. However, a restriction designed to prevent ordinary wear and tear (e.g., marks, scratches, and minor damage to carpets, walls and draperies) would likely not be reasonable provided the antenna is installed wholly within the antenna user's own exclusive use area. In addition, rental property is subject to the same protection and exceptions to the rule as owned property. Thus, a landlord may impose other types of restrictions that do not impair installation, maintenance or use under the rule. The landlord may also impose restrictions necessary for safety or historic preservation.

Q: If I live in a condominium, cooperative, or other type of residence where certain areas have been designated as "common," do these rules apply to me?

A: The rules apply to residents of these types of buildings, but the rules do not permit you to install an antenna on a common area, such as a walkway, hallway, community garden, exterior wall or the roof. However, you may install the antenna wholly within a balcony, deck, patio, or other area where you have exclusive use.

Drilling through an exterior wall, e.g. to run the cable from the patio into the unit, is generally not within the protection of the rule because the exterior wall is generally a common element. You may wish to check with your retailer or installer for advice on how to install the antenna without drilling a hole. Alternatively, your landlord or association may grant permission for you to drill such a hole. The Commission's rules generally do not cover installations if you drill through a common element.

:end quote

Now, look at that last paragraph. They've even suggesting asking the landlord to grant you permission to drill a hole, and depending upon circumstances, it may or may NOT be reasonable if such a request were denied, IMO .....


I said no such thing nor did I imply any such thing


I understand what you are saying about not wanting tenants to "damage" property, and I agree with that in almost all cases --- However -- think about this for a minute .... Are you also saying it would be reasonable for a landlord to not allow a hole drilled for cable, Satellite OR OTA antenna? Once they figure out what's going on, who would want to rent property where they couldn't use an outdoor antenna(if say they couldn't get adequete reception from indoors), couldn't use cable, and couldn't use satellite? And/or, How would it be OK for One(if the landlord had cable or satellite installed, but the tenant didn't choose to use it) but not the other?

Any reasonable person would conclude the same that goes for Cable or satellite installs concerning drilling of holes for the coax run, or mounting of the dish should apply to antennas as well ...

But, it's true that landlords and building owners(nor tenants for that matter) are not allways reasonable, and it's also true that drilling through an exterior wall for individual units in some cases could be "unreasonable", but those are not usually necessary for master antenna, cableTV or satellite systems in MDU's(multi-dwelling units). And, I do think it's just unfortunate more buildings do not include MATV systems to allow it's residents to be able to choose OTA use other than with an indoor antenna(or balcony antenna if they can find a way to get the coax through without drilling the hole in cases when that is "unreasonable).

IMO, it is not reasonable to force anyone to hinder their reception by being restricted from using an outdoor antenna, or to "force" anyone into subscribing to satellite and cable, or an inadequete for reception indoor antenna(sometimes it works well, but sometimes it doesn't) if they don't wish to do so. And, certianly, there are some *unreasonable* situations out there, I've lived in apartments without MATV before and even if I could have put an antenna on the balcony it would have made things worse as the balcony didn't face the towers. I got along with indoor antenna for the short time I lived there.

Oh, to clarify in case you didn't know what I was talking about -- When it comes to MDU's(multi-dwelling units), One option is MATV - master antenna system. This is what was used before cable in apartment buildings, and this is still what is used in some apartment buildings, and hosptials and the like, sometimes these days along with Satellite. Search for posts on AVSforum by "Antaltmike" he does professional installs of MATV systems in the DC+northern VA area ....

Sig SNR AGC

WDTN: 80-90 24-25 16-17

WHIO: 65-85 20-28 20

WPTD: 60-80 19-23 26-27

WKEF: 98 31-32 18

WB: 92-98 28-29 18

WGRT: 98 30-31 18




Looks like your signal strenths are more than adequete for the most part from what I've seen on my set. Concerning that, and assuming our receivers are pretty much the same in our Sony TV's from experiments I have done with adding additional attenuation in feedline/etc, especially with that low of a AGC (%) readings, and that high of an SNR, you are getting strong signals. The SNR will never go above about 33db SNR reading -- not because of signal strength, but because of "technical issues" involving how much SNR is actually "possible" to achieve on the station end for various reasons .... If it were down in the 15~18db range though, then you might want to get it higher ...

From what I have seen, AGC readings of about 35%~45%(I've never seen anything higher than about 43%, and that involved were extremely weak+distant signals), and SNR readings in the 14~17db range would generally indicate weak signals. Anything lower AGC wise, or higher SNR wise should be fine ...

If anything concerning signal strength, you might want to try to improve the readings a bit from WPTD-DT -- Since it's on channel 58, the highest frequency in use(which as I said before, the higher the frequnecy/shorter the wavelentgh can be more of an issue signal attenuation wise due to antenna being indoors, and nearby terrain/trees/etc). That would probably be the only one where higher readings might give you a little more "fade margin" which may be beneifical, even possibly(but probably not) where multipath difficulties are concerned(although, more signal strength will generally just mean stronger multipath echoes as well).

So, it still looks like it's probably multipath difficulties your dealing with instead of signal strength issues ....

I knew this might happen, but I'd better "test" things a bit more first. I hung that $4 bowtie antenna in my front window, west-facing, and am already getting higher numbers than with the HDTVi....

yeah, right near windows can be an especially good spot. Those little UHF bowties can work great to "hide"/etc as well, especially if you've got a window facing the towers with blinds+drapes that aren't generally opened .....

When I've played around with indoor reception here, it's just amazing the difference between anywhere else in the house and right near a South(for Cincinnati) or East(Dayton) facing window. In my case, digital reception turns out to be easier from indoors, but having antenna right near a 2nd floor window facing the towers is the ONLY way to get anything even nearly approaching watchable analog signals from most stations, and honestly, even that is night and day from the pristine OTA analog+digital reception I receive with outdoor antenna setup. Big, huge, outdoor hi-gain antenna in the attic? Forget it. No way. Ghosts galore ....

Below is part of a message I posted in the "OTA" forum, but this part might be specific to our local channels: I just got an OTA receiver (Samsung SIR-TS160) and all is working great so far. I've got a question about the guide data though and how it's rec'd or not rec'd, in my case. All of my local channels (ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, and WB) all have had the guide data filled in at one time or another. Sometimes it just says "Regular schedule" and the time slots, 1/2 hour or 1 hour, aren't split up either. Just one long slot....

I also get (5) PBS feeds and none of them have the guide data filled in. I'll ask in my local thread about that though. That's either "normal" for them or an incompatibility with my receiver.

I've got a question about the guide data though and how it's rec'd or not rec'd, in my case.


Stations send Guide data via OTA as part of their datastream via PSIP( see www.psip.org ). Stations also send much other info via PSIP, such as Virtual channel remapping info(via PSIP VCT - virtual channel table), Auto Time/date info(via PSIP STT), and EIA-708 captions.

That's either "normal" for them

From what I have seen It's unfortunately generally normal from the Dayton stations for the guide info to often be missing, wrong or incomplete. And, It's been some time since I've seen any guide data whatsoever(including program descriptions) from WPTD-DT.

That's not saying it isn't also possible your receiver might have a firmware issue/etc. with full PSIP support. You'd probably want it to fully support ATSC's A65 PSIP standard ....

Most folks who are using Sat receivers+OTA never notice these issues as the EPG info usually comes from the birds instead of via PSIP stream from the OTA signal/station. Don't know the specifics about your receiver, but sounds like it's(currently anyway) using the station's PSIP stream.

FCC required about a year ago that stations fully implement PSIP via ATSC A65/B standard(including 12 hours of EPG info via PSIP EIT's), but stations seem to be having a hard time of it ....

There's been some discussion about this recently in the Cincinnati thread you may want to check out ...

Well, just sent a report via WKEF/WRGT contact info form on their website concerning the dropped frames issue I'm getting from WKEF-DT on Zenith HDV420 during ABC HD programming sourced from 24fps sources (such as "Forrest Gump" tonight), as well as the "2nd", duplicate/incorrect 27.5 PSIP VCT channel from WRGT-DT that's been there for a couple weeks or so.

We'll see if their "contact form" is still working(recall someone saying they had their "issues" they were having with that contact form fixed with it several months ago) -- I would encourage any others experiencing these issues(or any others, or any other stations for that matter) to contact them as well ....

Note that the current "dropped frames" issue from WKEF-DT that has been occuring for about a week or so during HD sourced from Film(or 1080p/24fps material such as ABC HD sitcoms I believe) is only effecting some receiver models, as has been the case in the past when it has occured from WKEF-DT ....

Sorry, I haven't spent much time or effort contacting stations about incomplete or missing EPG guide info(or problems concerning EIA708 captions either, which is all one of my receiver's supports) via PSIP as I've found it's often been a major project over the past 4 years just contacting them about what I consider to be more "primary" issues ...

Besides, it's WAY past getting old as it is, and more and more and whenever possible I'm just more likely to either just switch to the Cincinnati or Dayton station that's "working right" .....

Well, just sent a report via WKEF/WRGT contact info form on their website concerning the dropped frames issue I'm getting from WKEF-DT on Zenith HDV420 during ABC HD programming sourced from 24fps sources (such as "Forrest Gump" tonight)

Note that the current "dropped frames" issue from WKEF-DT that has been occuring for about a week or so during HD sourced from Film(or 1080p/24fps material such as ABC HD sitcoms I believe) is only effecting some receiver models, as has been the case in the past when it has occured from WKEF-DT .... A number of people in other cities were having the dropped frames problem too, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=514186&page=2. Others weren't though... That would rule out the problem being from ABC, would it not ?? Suggests that many stations have the same equipment (???).

A number of people in other cities were having the dropped frames problem too, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=514186&page=2. Others weren't though... That would rule out the problem being from ABC, would it not ?? Suggests that many stations have the same equipment (???).

From what I can tell from some of the remarks there, I doubt the "freezes" some folks were talking about is the same issue WKEF-DT is having with some receivers. Also note this is a completely different issue than the "video freezes" that used to also plague WKEF-DT during HD programming. The dropped frames issue has not been occuring(with the same decoder/etc) the past week or so from WCPO-DT ABC HD Cincinnati including last night, so yes, it doesn't appear to be a ABC issue.

The Audio doesn't "freeze" for example, and the video doesn't really "freeze" either(although some might describe it that way). What is happening about 1/3(or a little more)or so of the "frames per second" during 24fps sources on ABC HD are not being "drawn"(sent to the screen) by the decoder - looks more about like 13~15fps, and even then it's not a "smooth" thing. Looks like sometimes, say 3 or 4(or more) frames right next to each other are being "dropped" and not displayed, but 1/2 a second later you'll get 3~4 frames properly. This is an issue that's been "continously there" for the past week or so, all the time during programming from 24fps sources. It's not "sporadic freezes" for instance.

This has happened before from WKEF-DT, WSYX-DT Columbus and even once for a brief period a similar issue occured from WCPO-DT(and they are using different equipment, and in that case it seemed to effect more receiver models on the user end, and may have been a slightly different issue). It also used to occasionally occur during some non-fox programming(upconverted SD such as "the simpsons", or "Star Trek Voyager when they used to have it) from WRGT-DT.

Concerning the issue with WKEF-DT and when it has occured in the past(and this specific issue has only effected some receivers, not all), I've posted in detail on this thread on previous occasions what "fixed it" according to WKEF-DT engineer and WSYX/Sinclair engineer in Columbus -- And that was, they reported : Turning "repeat field detection" off on their Harmonic MV400 encoder. It, or a bit later model is a popular encoder used by many stations, Fox was using MV450 for the FOX HD from the splicer in fact, don't know if they've "upgraded" it or not. That issue has certianly never occured during Fox HD, in any case.

This is apparently an issue involving 720p, 24fps source material, 3:2 pulldown issues and the encoder and/or how certian decoders handle certian MPEG2 settings on the encoder end. Turning "repeat field detection" ON on the encoder should allow for a bandwidth savings, as, instead of actually sending repeated data for duplicate fields in the MPEG2 datastream, turning "repeat field detection "ON" on their encoder should allow the decoder to properly detect, and redraw any repeated fields when necessary - but, evidently for some reason it isn't working that way in this case with my Zenith HDV420 receiver, and instead only about 2/3 or so of even the "non-duplicated" 24fps are being decoded - resulting in very "stuttery" video. Or, perhaps there are some other "different" encoder settings needed for different source programming(film or 24fps 1080p HD sources vs. 30fps interlaced or 60fps progressive) which is not being implemented on the station's encoder.

Also Note that in my case, the issue is there no matter what I'm outputting from the receiver(480i, 480p, 720p or 1080i), or what display it is hooked up to(including "old fashioned" analog TV's at 480i, or displays which offer full 3:2 pulldown support. It does not effect my other two ATSC receivers(Built into Sony HDTV, or Hisense/USDTV) DB-2010. For more details, (including some info from Sinclair engineers from the last time I was working with them on solviing it) see this post(from 3rd paragraph down to the end) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=136336&page=117&pp=30

wkef was fine for me (hd tivo) with the cavs - pistons yeaterday

Sounds expensive. Are they currently using analog NTSC or digital(MPEG2 transport stream/etc) for the remote ?

I was told the cost differences were small, but I don't have any hard data to back that up.

Also, What is the situation concerning the "wiring"(or fiber)for the camera posistions in place at the venue? Could that also be an issue involved, and Does WHIO have control over that?

Well, when you compare WHIO and WXIX side by side for the same event (the UC vs UD games at both the Shoe and UD Arena) there was always a noticable difference. I'd guess that they were using the same camera's, as there weren't 2 guys under the baskets (one for each network), and the overall shots looked similar. Like I said before, I believe it is an issue of their production equipment.

I think WXIX has aired some pretty poor looking productions for UC games as of late as well, which also hasn't usually been the case in the past.

I haven't noticed the actual WXIX productions looking bad save maybe the lighting isn't as good as in the past, but that is quite possibly UC dimming the lights due to poor crowd size after the Huggins debacle. I have noticed that some of the ESPN+ games didn't look as good (they were broadcast on WXIX, but weren't produced by them). Are those games what you are referring to?

Are those games what you are referring to?

Don't think so. I don't watch much basketball, so not sure which games it was(it wasn't the ESPN+ games though I don't think) or who was doing the production, only that I thought it hasn't looked as good this year as it has in the past. I don't think WXIX does it on their own in any case like WHIO does.

I don't think WXIX does it on their own in any case like WHIO does.

I believe you are right, they rent one of the NEP production trucks, I'm pretty sure. They do have their own graphics, however, that I believe NEP overlay's for them.

wkef was fine for me (hd tivo) with the cavs - pistons yeaterday

Jim, but that would be programming from a Video source(30 frames per second interlaced, or 60fps progressive if it was 720p HD from ABC) .... I'm not seeing any issues on WKEF-DT currently with programming sourced from Video either ...

As was the case when this last happened from WKEF-DT last summer, it's only effecting programming sourced from Film (or from 1080p/24p HD sources - as I believe some of the ABC HD scripted programming are) ... Which is 24 frames per second. And, it is only effecting some receivers ... In my case, only my Zenith HDV420 is effected ... It's not occuring with Internal receiver in Sony HDTV, or Hisense/USDTV DB-2010 ...

I can't recall - was the hdtivo one of the receivers getting the "dropped frames" last summer when this was occuring from WKEF-DT? Not the unrelated "video freezes" they used to have which effected all receivers, or later "audio drop" issues they were having just around the time they first started doing DD 5.1(and a bit before that as well) which effected some equipment.

not sure.. I didnt get the tivo until september, so I can't say for sure if that was the case

I've got my Terk HDTVi temporarily sitting in my attic right now, shooting out the corner more or less, through the roof (shingles) itself. I'm now picking up (7) digital stations and my signal strength has improved from 93-100% on WDTN, WHIO, WPTD, and WBDT and 77-86% on WKEF and WRGT to 93-100% on ALL stations. Previously, WKEF and WRGT were dropping out frequently too. I'm also picking up WKOI out of Richmond now, 30 miles out. Not bad for an *indoor* antenna, IMO.

Now I'm really tempted to aim just a hair south and see if anything happens with Cincy stations without affecting the Dayton stations..... :D Dayton's stations are in the 252' direction for me while the Cincy stations are in the 209' direction and 42-47 miles out.

yeah, right near windows can be an especially good spot. Those little UHF bowties can work great to "hide"/etc as well, especially if you've got a window facing the towers with blinds+drapes that aren't generally opened .....

When I've played around with indoor reception here, it's just amazing the difference between anywhere else in the house and right near a South(for Cincinnati) or East(Dayton) facing window. In my case, digital reception turns out to be easier from indoors, but having antenna right near a 2nd floor window facing the towers is the ONLY way to get anything even nearly approaching watchable analog signals from most stations, and honestly, even that is night and day from the pristine OTA analog+digital reception I receive with outdoor antenna setup. Big, huge, outdoor hi-gain antenna in the attic? Forget it. No way. Ghosts galore ....


I may be not typical but I have 2 large high gain outoor antenna's in my attic and they work fine. Probably helps that Dayton and Cincinnati are almost exactly 180 degres apart from me. NO issues with digital at all. Analog is just ok except for WBQC 38 which suprisingly comes in better than WCPO and WKRC. But since I almost never watch analog, it doesn't matter.

I'm also picking up WKOI out of Richmond now, 30 miles out. Not bad for an *indoor* antenna, IMO.


FYI, WKOI's community of license is Richmond Indiana, but they actually transmit from a tower SW of you -- It's right between Trenton+Oxford, OH.

Never paid attention to their direction, but yeah, they're between Dayton's towers and Cincy's from my location (according to antennaweb). Can't say I see much of interest on it though....

Never paid attention to their direction, but yeah, they're between Dayton's towers and Cincy's from my location (according to antennaweb). Can't say I see much of interest on it though....

Preachers in English or Spanish, take your pick...4 multicast channels worth the last time I picked them up.

Yeah, there's 5 or 6 total channels from them .... taking up space in the program guide. Until I reconnect the antenna in the attic, they're gone though. Do they have anything even kid-friendly on their add'l channels ? I looked for a website for them but didn't find one.

It really irks me when people are critical of WHIO for choosing to broadcast UD games, as horrible as the production may be, simply because it preempts CBS national programming.

For starters, I think it is important that stations braodcast local events in addition to locally produced programming. Besides the news and UD basketball and the Brian Gregory show, there really isn't much on any local Dayton affiliates that is produced locally (except on PBS). Some might consider this a key factor in the public interest requirement for station licensure. In contrast to the the network affiliates, at least TWC makes an effort to produce local programming (UD, WSU and Miami men's and women's basketball, football, softball, etc.).

UD might be one of the best things Dayton has going for it. It is respected as an institution. Its basketball program actually has real scholar-athletes who graduate (the second or third best graduation rate in the country for D-I institutions).

Otherwise, without UD basketball and the news, I'm not sure what separates WHIO from any other CBS station. I suppose we might as well consolidate Dayton and Cincinnati into one. For that matter, just have one nationally operated CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, WB, etc. station. We've seen it happen with radio and Clear Channel, etc., and its not good. I would rather find myself listening to WYSO and WCWT over Clear Channel any day.

As for Mike Hartsock, he has always been a proponent of Dayton basketball and the community, whether it be high school football or that other locally produced high school quiz show he does.

I've heard that UD has signed a contract with CSTV for UD games next year. Whether it completely shuts out WHIO remains to be seen. Maybe there will be a game or two in HD on CSTV (via INHD) since FSN-Ohio has really dropped the ball. I would have much rather seen a quality HD production from WHIO, however, as WRGT did with UC basketball last year.

It really irks me when people are critical of WHIO for choosing to broadcast UD games, as horrible as the production may be, simply because it preempts CBS national programming. I'm not a basketball fan so I am biased in this, but look at the big picture. How many people in Dayton watch the normally televised CBS program vs how many end up watching the UD game ?? I'll bet the numbers are drastically different. I would give WHIO credit there that they don't put viewing numbers/ratings over "local sports".

It reminds me of when they put one of the presidential debates on WHIO-DT and left the regular CBS show on WHIO (analog). Why'd they do that ?? They did it because that time they chose ratings over the debate. I don't know for a fact, but I'm pretty sure that election debates get pretty low ratings....

Back to the UD games, what does WHIO do on the analog channel and the digital channel when they show UD ?? Do they put the game on both ??

.Do they have anything even kid-friendly on their add'l channels ?

The #5 mulitcast channel they added around Christmas is Children's programming.


I looked for a website for them but didn't find one.


www.tbn.org

Here's another website for a religious station you might not be familar with. It broadcasts(channel 55 analog) from a tower near Bellbrook/Centerville :

www.lifebroadcastingnetwork.org

www.tbn.org I found that one last night but didn't see anything really related to WKOI. I assumed that WKOI was a "local" station that was affiliated with TBN, not in fact a full-time outlet for TBN.

Did run across something interesting on the TBN site.... http://www.tbn.org/index.php/7.html?nid=56
A new revision to a law that helped bring Christian television to nearly every home in the U.S. is now before the U.S. Congress, and TBN is asking viewers to contact key U.S. Senators and Congressmen and ask for their support.

In 1992 Congress passed the "Must Carry" law, requiring cable companies to carry all the signals of locally available networks. "That law changed the broadcast landscape and made Christian television available to millions of homes across the nation," said Paul Crouch Jr., Vice President of Administration for TBN.

Crouch explained the revision would add digital signals to the law, requiring cable companies to carry all of the digital signals of a television station.

It really irks me when people are critical of WHIO for choosing to broadcast UD games, as horrible as the production may be, simply because it preempts CBS national programming.


I'm not critical of them doing that at all. I agree with many of your comments, in fact. That being said, who knows what would happen to WRGT or WKEF if Sinclair wasn't there to operate them, and who knows how many radio stations would go dark, or be viable if it weren't for the CC's ....... Just Look at what happened to 97X ...

I also miss the coverage of Dayton air show WHIO used to do on Saturdays. That's been missing the last 2 or 3 years or so. Allways thought that would be nice in HD "someday" as well.

Personally, the more available programming choices available OTA(but NOT at the expense of quality - such as HD PQ or quality programming vs. quantity) from the Dayton and Cincinnati stations, the better IMO, and that includes locally produced programming. If one is a UD fan, they can watch the UD games on WHIO, if one would rather watch CBS HD, they can watch it from the Cincinnati (or Columbus/etc) stations .... THAT's what I've been "supporting", I did not suggest it to be critical of WHIO for running the UD games .....

Cincinnati stations sometimes run different programming in lieu of Network programming as well. WXIX for UC Games, occasionally syndicated movies on WCPO/etc, or you might see "Billy Graham" on WKRC or WCPO ....

I found that one last night but didn't see anything really related to WKOI. I assumed that WKOI was a "local" station that was affiliated with TBN, not in fact a full-time outlet for TBN.


They are a TBN affiliate, but they're pretty much all TBN programming. All of their multicast services are TBN's. They do occasionally have some local programming on 43-1 and the analog station.

For the most part however, It doesn't really differ much from the TBN network feed that feeds TBN low power translators W20CL (Springfield) or W36DG Cincinnati. W36DG actually uses Dish Network to pick up the feed, you can tell when they have "rain fade" issues by the info pops up from the E* receiver they are using when it loses the feed.(channel #260, transponder#/etc).

Anyhow, Here's some of TBN's info on their digital stations, You'll find WKOI listed, with WKOI-DT specific coverage map there.

http://www.tbn.org/index.php/7.html?nid=21

I don't watch them much, but the younger Crouch guy that's a engineer at TBN is often on there talking about DTV (and even HD at times), including informing folks about OTA DTV/HD and giving demonstrations with ATSC receivers and Silver Sensors and the like ...

I'm not a basketball fan so I am biased in this, but look at the big picture. How many people in Dayton watch the normally televised CBS program vs how many end up watching the UD game ?? I'll bet the numbers are drastically different. I would give WHIO credit there that they don't put viewing numbers/ratings over "local sports".

It reminds me of when they put one of the presidential debates on WHIO-DT and left the regular CBS show on WHIO (analog). Why'd they do that ?? They did it because that time they chose ratings over the debate. I don't know for a fact, but I'm pretty sure that election debates get pretty low ratings....

Back to the UD games, what does WHIO do on the analog channel and the digital channel when they show UD ?? Do they put the game on both ??

I went to WSU so I couldn't give a flying frick about UD basketball. :p

Generally when they show the games it's the same thing on the digital as the analog.

WRGT used to carry WSU games ......

WRGT used to carry WSU games ......

WDTN did before that. I remember games in the old fieldhouse on WDTN. Now channel 25 on Time Warner (public access) carries a handful of their games, most of the time on tape delay.

I’m helping a friend of mine who lives in Centerville. His house has an antenna that was built into the house during construction. Since his home doesn’t have attic access we have no idea what the antenna is. He is having trouble with Fox 45 in HD, it breaks up and looses signal. All of the other Dayton HD channels come in fine. My question is this, is there an amplifier that we could add to boost 45 reception? If we added an antenna what would everyone suggest?

Thanks

Noticed WRGT-DT seems to have fixed their PSIP. 27.5 is now gone, and I'm now seeing EPG info via OTA/PSIP from them. Don't know if anyone will need to "rescan" or not, at the very least you may need to if 27.5 is still showing up in your "channel list" and you want to get rid of it ..

Was still getting the "dropped frames" issue with Zenith HDV420 during ABC HD programming sourced from Film/24p last night from WKEF-DT. Also noticed they had a "freezed frame" up from ABC HD Test loop(shuttle launch video) for first few minutes after 8pm before they switched to the ABC HD feed for "According to Jim", so maybe they were working on things a bit ...

mlbuc,

I remember those fieldhouse games, as I was at WSU several years before Nutter center was built .... went to a number of games, probably never had time to watch one on TV, but don't really remember as that was a long time ago .... Come to think of it, ~20 years ago ....

backld,

Sounds like it's probably a multipath issue - IF so, Amplifier won't help with that and is usually not a good idea from that close due to "overload" concerns (moreso the case with an outdoor antenna, however)

Adjusting the placement or aiming of antenna a bit would be my best suggestion for what to try first ... IF you could find it/get to it, that is As for a different antenna, many things might work, even a $4 "out-line bowtie" from Radio shack ..... "Silver Sensor", or RS DBT are among the best "indoor" antenna UHF antennas out there(all dayton digital stations transmit on UHF), and Radio Shack U-75R is an inexpensive, relatively small outdoor antenna UHF that would be a good choice and has better performance than any of those indoor antennas ... Outdoors is usually a good place to put an antenna, but some folks have had good results with indoor antennas, including installing "outdoor" type antennas in attic ... You might also want to scroll a ways back in this thread and read some of the reports from others concerning their OTA reception and various antenna models/etc ...

It really irks me when people are critical of WHIO for choosing to broadcast UD games, as horrible as the production may be, simply because it preempts CBS national programming.I guess I'm one of those who was "critical" of WHIO for pre-empting primetime programming for UD basketball. I'll respond by saying that you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to mine. *IMO* local college basketball (and the like) belongs on public access channels, not on a network affiliate. I couldn't care less about anything local (especially in Dayton).

Regardless, the true intent of my criticism was the manner in which WHIO bumps their programming. The least they could do is come up with an effective way to alert their viewers about the change in schedule. WXIX runs their "Bearcat Bounce" spots to tell you what programs UC basketball will displace, and when you can view them. If WHIO runs anything like this, then it would be news to me because I've never seen one. Last year when all I had was analog TV (no guide or anything), I had to call WHIO to ask when their primetime programs could be seen. To me, that seems pretty lame.

He is having trouble with Fox 45 in HD, it breaks up and looses signal. All of the other Dayton HD channels come in fine. My question is this, is there an amplifier that we could add to boost 45 reception? If we added an antenna what would everyone suggest?Ah, it's nice to be talking about HD OTA reception again - too much cable talk recently ;)

I would second many of the suggestions that Nitewatchman made - especially with just searching through this thread. I personally have had good luck with the (indoor) Terk HDTVi, but a lot of that depends on your friend's location. Try checking out antennaweb (http://www.antennaweb.org) to figure out how far away from the towers you are, their direction, etc. There are many factors that come into play when it comes to this sort of thing. Out of curiosity, has his Fox 45 reception always been this way? Has he ever tried it out late at night, for example? Time of day and weather patterns are also something that could affect reception. For example, it's usually only during the overnight hours that I get Fox 28 out of Columbus.

Anyway, if I were him, I'd be figuring out a way to cut an access door in the ceiling somewhere so he could get to his attic. There are many other reasons he may need to get in there someday.

His house has an antenna that was built into the house during construction. Since his home doesn’t have attic access we have no idea what the antenna is. Built in to the house ?? I've never even heard of this being done, but then again, I haven't bought a 'new' house either. If this is typical, I'd bet there's a certain model or two that they buy and use. As for no attic access, have you looked in all of the closets for an access panel ??

Noticed 27.5 "East" is back again from WRGT-DT ..... EPG via PSIP also appears to be missing again ...

Since it was fixed earlier today, now it's not(after Fox programming), I'd bet the Fox splicer might be involved ... Found a few posts elsewhere that indicate other Fox affiliates may be having some issues along these lines as well, such as this one :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7223018&&#post7223018


Update #1: As of 3/3 7:30pm, 27.5 gone again from WRGT-DT since sometime early 3/2, and it didn't "come back" again after FOX HD last night ... Hopefully they've got it taken care of now.

Also noticed not only were "dropped frames" issue with Zenith HDV420 still there last night from WKEF-DT, but appears they may be having even more problems with ABC HD -- A frame was "frozen" from the ABC HD Movie for quite sometime, then they dropped to SD feed .... ABC HD was fine from WCPO-DT Cincinnati when I checked ...

I'm new to the forum and looking to pick up an ota antenna for my xbr960 that is shipping this week. I'm located in Beavercreek, 45432. I checked antenna web for what they recommend, it was a yellow-uhf. I have a couple questions about a few antennas.

1. I have dish network. Has anyone used the "Local TV Power Antenna" from radio shack? It clips onto your dish.

2. Would the indoor terk hdtvi work well for my distance? If so, would I want the amplified version or not?

3. I've seen the U-75R, 40" outdoor boom, antenna mentioned. Is this something that is easy to set up? How do you mount it, in the ground? It looks like you have to provide your own cables for the install. How does that work and what would I need? Would this antenna give me the best reception and could I pull in stations from distant cities?

1) Most people have nothing good to say about those clip-on antennas. I guess for an outdoor antenna, they do have two positives: 1) They're easy to install/mount and 2) You don't need to run add'l cabling as I believe it splices into your dish cabling.

2) I have the HDTVi and am under 6 miles from the towers. When I mount it in my attic, I get GREAT results. When it's on the 1st floor, I can't locate it in a "functional" spot and get all stations. FWIW, my wife say-so in where a "functional" location is. :D There's a guy further east than you in Xenia using the HDTVa, the amplified version, and is able to pick up all Dayton stations as well as numerous Cincy stations. I'd suggest trying the Terk HDTVa first (I can't find the unamplified version locally) from Parts Express/Mendelson's or Radio Shack or wherever you can locate one, keep the packaging and receipts, and see how it works. If it doesn't, return it. At your (short) distance, I think it would be recommended that you turn the amplifier OFF on that unit, at least try it that way first.

It looks like WPTD is sending guide data now..... How come on TW, their guide says "Off Air" for the HD sub-channel (when they're off air), but WPTD's own data does not, at least on my box ??

I'm new to the forum and looking to pick up an ota antenna for my xbr960 that is shipping this week. I'm located in Beavercreek, 45432. I checked antenna web for what they recommend, it was a yellow-uhf. I have a couple questions about a few antennas.


1st off, welcome to avs. Secondly, it would be extremely difficult to answer all your questions in all the detail they would require for a full explanation so it's probably a good idea for you to first check out the following thread : OTA digital TV reception FAQ - New to Ota Start Here! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957) Much info should be available there which should help with some of your questions.

But to take a bit of a stab at it, anyway :

concerning #1+2, I pretty much agree with Hall's comments, just keep in mind there is no *guarentee* or certianty that you'll be able to achieve acceptable reception from indoors. *Many* factors can effect, and be detirmental for OTA reception, and especially so from indoors. That's why antennaweb won't make "predictions" for indoor antenna installs. For example, while "rabbit ears", or HDTVi(a) on the set might work for your neighbor, it might not work for *you*. Most significantly -- Having antenna indoors *greatly* attenuates signals, and also usually increases multipath. And, since everything near the antenna becomes "somewhat" connected to it(even *you* when you are adjusting antenna), this effects the performance of the antenna ... various "interference" issues can often be more of a problem indoors as well, but generally moreso on VHF channels ....

You will just have to try it and see -- as Hall mentioned -- keep your receipts, so you can take it back if it doesn't work well enough ....


3. I've seen the U-75R, 40" outdoor boom, antenna mentioned. Is this something that is easy to set up? How do you mount it, in the ground? It looks like you have to provide your own cables for the install. How does that work and what would I need?


If you've never installed an outdoor antenna before, probably best to read up on the subject a bit .. Including info from thread mentioned above. Also some good info here : Erecting an Antenna (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/erecting_antenna.html) .. Be sure to check out the "antenna basics", and "Choosing a mounting site". Here's another good site that's chock full of excellent, antenna/OTA reception info : http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html - In section #13, this fellow (who is an engineer at a TV station in Alaska) even explains how he installed, and mounted a roof mounted antenna in a quite interesting way I think ....

Many different options may be available for you to mount an outdoor antenna, there are eave mounts, chimney mounts, tripod mounts(which can be installed on your roof), and with such a small antenna as the U-75R, it could even be mounted to a "soil stack"/etc/etc/etc.

Generally speaking, I think it's pretty easy if you've done a good job planning for the installation, including safety issues/concerns/etc, but perhaps moreso if you've had experience installing antennas in the past. Generally can be done on a saturday afternoon. Running the coax feeds and in some cases properly grounding mast+coax runs and bonding the grounds to your main A/C service ground per NEC code will often require the most siginficant effort/time.

Also, keep in mind an antenna such as U-75R could be put "indoors" as well ... such as in the attic(or anywhere else you have "room" for it), although it's performance will, of course be better outdoors ...

It is often a good idea to first temporarily mount the antenna near where you will be thinking of putting it to make sure it works well, before mounting the antenna permaneantly or making the "permanent" coax runs ... as sometimes, even for an outdoor antenna you need to "find" a sweet spot to place the antenna for best reception. There can be "hot spots" and "cold spots" for signals from any given station, or multipath conditions.

You do want to make sure you have a sturdy mount for antenna. Wind/ice loading can put more "strain" on things than you might think, although it's much less of an issue for a small UHF antenna such as U-75R than it is with larger antennas - such as Large VHF/UHF combo antennas, or even UHF antennas such as CM4228 8-bay bowtie. Also, Proper grounding to NEC is also a very good idea - You'll find info on that in the "antenna info" links I've provided.

What you'll need to mount antenna+properly ground the mast+coax runs will vary depending on circumstances - including mounting hardware, mast/etc, how much RG-6 you need, a balun/matching transformer if it doesn't come with the antenna, ground blocks, ground rods, ground wire/etc/etc. For the "cable" connections, for instance, you'll need a good pocketknife, (wirestripper is also a good idea to strip the dielectric foam from the center conductor) Crimping tool, and "F" connectors appropriate for the cable your using(using RG6 for the coax is a good idea).


Would this antenna give me the best reception and could I pull in stations from distant cities?


Putting antenna outdoors is often a good idea(especially if you're more than 15 miles or so away from the towers), although many folks achieve good results with indoor antennas as well, in some cases even from farther distances than 15 miles .... There are many factors that can effect reception, so it's impossible to say what antenna(or where you put it) will give you the "best" reception in any given circumstance ....

That being said, The U-75R would be a good choice for a Dayton antenna for you -- You *might* be able to pull in Cincinnati or Columbus stations with it as well, but you'll likely have to aim the antenna differently for Cincinnati, and most definetely will need different antenna aiming for Columbus from your location .... I'd see what you get with it first with "manual" rotation before deciding whether or not you'd find it benefical to also add a rotor or to use multiple antennas via different feedlines with a A/B switch near receiver to switch between the antennas/etc.

That might seem to be "inconvienient" to have to "aim the antenna" differently for reception of stations from different cities, however, that's just the way the "physics" of OTA antennas on VHF/UHF work -- The more "directional" they are, the more signal gain they have, and the better they can "reject" multipath ......

It may be the case you might need an antenna with better performance than U-75R(more gain, better directivity) for best possible reception from Cincinnati or Columbus stattions, and possibly a good, low-noise/high gain mast mount preamp as well(which although may not be so good of an idea for Dayton, may be a very good idea for Cincinnati/Columbus). If you want to go the "least expensive" route however, I'd probably start with something like the U-75R, and see what you get with it, first.

Another thing to keep in mind, is that although all of the Dayton Digital Stations transmit on UHF, Both Columbus+Cincinnati have Digital stations which transmit on HI-VHF(and one more Cincinnati digital will move to VHF after analog shut off), so you'll probably need to add VHF reception capability for any luck with those.

Just depends upon what you want, really. You could stick up a U-75R, and for not much $ get a good idea of what you'll be able to pull in, or, if you want the "best" possible reception you could go all out, pick up high gain, seperate VHF+UHF antennas, preamp/rotor for a couple of hundred bucks or so ... along the lines of Antennas such as CM4228/XG91 for UHF, Winegard YA-1713 for Hi-VHF(ch 7-13 - doens't look like we will have any Lo-VHF channel 2-6 stations), CM7777 preamp, rotor/etc ...

What I'd probably do is get the U-75R(or something along those lines) first - see what you get with it via "manual" rotation, and if it looks promising and you are so inclinced -- You could Use U-75R for your "Dayton" antenna, and set up a 2nd, "high gain" antenna setup with rotor/preamp for Cincinnati+Columbus stations -- using a A/B switch near your TV to "switch" between the two antenna setups .... Well, actually that is pretty much exactly what I do here ....

Another option would be a "one-size" fits all solution, for Dayton/Cincinnati+Columbus(this would work for the analog stations as well)-- such as A medium~large sized VHF/UHF combo(of conventional design) with rotor and probably with preamp -- You might not get the "best" reception from all stations with this this, and you only need the "largest" portions of a VHF/UHF combo antenna for reception of current analog Lo-VHF stations on 2,4,5,6 in Dayton/Columbus+Cincinnati. But, it would probably be a good "overall compromise", and is likely to be what a "professional", and knowledgable antenna installer would recommend .... Most of the pro OTA residental installers seem to generally like to use Winegard Medium sized VHF/UHF combos -- which are certianly well built, fine antennas ...

If you don't want to mess with any of this yourself, one good option you'd have is to find a professional(a *knowledgable* one - unfortunetly, some of the folks who install sat dishes don't seem too knowledable about OTA antenna installs these days) OTA antenna installer and have them do it *for* you ....

It looks like WPTD is sending guide data now..... How come on TW, their guide says "Off Air" for the HD sub-channel (when they're off air), but WPTD's own data does not, at least on my box ??

They have had guide data via OTA PSIP working(to some extent) on previous occasions as well, it's just been a while ...

Concerning the lack of an "off air" message at times some of their programming services aren't active ..... I'd guess Maybe its because they haven't got around to this little "detail" yet ?

On 16.6 via OTA PSIP guide info It currently says "DTV program"(until 6pm), here .....

Concering why it's "different" from the guide info you're getting from TW, I'd guess it's probably because they may be using a different source for the data than is being sent through OTA PSIP EIT's for 16.6 ....

OF course we know that :

16HD (16.6 PSIP remapped) airs PBS HD channel from 6pm~6am nightly, which is when this program service is active. 6am~6pm, they send a blank screen on 16.6, often times with 16HD bug up ...It's not really ever "off air", 16.6 program service is just not active with "programming" between 6am~6pm, as the bandwidth is used for 4 SD channel multicast (16.2~16.5) instead .... 16.4+16.5 are also "blank screen"(with bug) between 6pm~6am when 16.6 is active with HD programming, 16.2+16.3 are allways active ..... They've been doing it like this for years, now ....

There's a guy further east than you in Xenia using the HDTVa, the amplified version, and is able to pick up all Dayton stations as well as numerous Cincy stations.Not sure if you're talking about me or not, but I live in Xenia and use the HDTVi. Works fine for me, but "for me" is the operative term, I guess. Like others have said, try something and if it doesn't work out for you, return it and try something else. I know others feel differently than me about this, but when it comes to antennas, I usually start with the cheapest option and work my way up. I ended up with the Terk, and couldn't be happier.

Circuit City carries the HDTVi, and Best Buy carries the HDTVa (a=amplified, i=unamplified, which is especially nice since I don't have to run power to its location).

I am just south of Xenia and have a clear unobstructed view to downtown Dayton. From the roof I can see all the towers downtown without any trees in the way, I do occasionally have a drop out, which leads me to believe it is a transmitter issue, or interference.

I also have an antenna pointed to Cincy, and can reliably get Cincy stations in the winter, and probably 90% of the time in the summer.

There is a big difference for digital signals, in having the antenna indoors vs on the roof, or even in an attic.

Not sure if you're talking about me or not, but I live in Xenia and use the HDTVi. Works fine for me, but "for me" is the operative term, I guess. Like others have said, try something and if it doesn't work out for you, return it and try something else. I know others feel differently than me about this, but when it comes to antennas, I usually start with the cheapest option and work my way up. I agree completely ! Why start with an expensive outdoor antenna plus installation and other misc hardware when a $15 indoor antenna works just as good ?? Hell, in my case, I had the $4 antenna from Radio Shack that was working quite well yet I had the Terk HDTVi, which obviously cost more, that I wanted to use. At the time I checked, no one locally had this antenna, so I ended up getting one mail-order. By the time I pay return shipping and possibly a restocking fee, I might as well keep it and make the best with it I can. I kept experimenting and it turns out that it shoots through the lumber and shingles of my roof just fine. Shingles, just like aluminum siding, are considered those potential trouble materials. There's only one way to find out for sure though !

Why start with an expensive outdoor antenna plus installation and other misc hardware when a $15 indoor antenna works just as good ??

#1) Because, for one thing it won't work "as good", in nearly all circumstances - one exception to that might be if mounting the antenna outdoors means you'd have to say, aim through a thick brick wall, and indoors all you're shooting through is a window or ashphalt shingles/wood.

Having antenna indoors attenuates signal greatly, and generally decreases the antenna's performance as *anything* near the antenna becomes connected to it. Multipath/interference issues are often more of an issue with indoor antennas as well. Obviously, for those reasons a indoor antenna isn't going work work "just as good" as a outdoor install ....

Whether indoor antenna may work *well enough* for you and your particular circumstances, and for what you *want* is another matter entirely. I'd be really careful about applying your own experiences with reception to what others might experience, especially so with indoor reception. There are *many* factors which can be detrimental to reception, moreso with an indoor receive antenna .....

#2). As for expense, many outdoor antennas are less expensive than many of the available indoor "settop" type antennas, and are generally better performing antennas. RS U-75R is about 25 bucks, for instance. I'd even choose a U-75R for a attic installation over any indoor UHF "settop" type antenna. Various brackets and a short piece of mast, and anything else needed vs a attic install doesn't cost much either .....

#1) Because, for one thing it won't work "as good", in nearly all circumstances - one exception to that might be if mounting the antenna outdoors means you'd have to say, aim through a thick brick wall, and indoors all you're shooting through is a window or ashphalt shingles/wood.

Having antenna indoors attenuates signal greatly, and generally decreases the antenna's performance as *anything* near the antenna becomes connected to it. Multipath/interference issues are often more of an issue with indoor antennas as well. Obviously, for those reasons a indoor antenna isn't going work work "just as good" as a outdoor install ....

Whether indoor antenna may work *well enough* for you and your particular circumstances, and for what you *want* is another matter entirely. I'd be really careful about applying your own experiences with reception to what others might experience, especially so with indoor reception. There are *many* factors which can be detrimental to reception, moreso with an indoor receive antenna .....

#2). As for expense, many outdoor antennas are less expensive than many of the available indoor "settop" type antennas, and are generally better performing antennas. RS U-75R is about 25 bucks, for instance. I'd even choose a U-75R for a attic installation over any indoor UHF "settop" type antenna. Various brackets and a short piece of mast, and anything else needed vs a attic install doesn't cost much either .....

With that said it still doesn't make sense to go outdoor if you can receive what you want w/o issue with a cheaper indoor. It's not that difficult to try it out and return it if you aren't happy with it. Outdoor antennas can also lead to aesthetic issues that some homeowners might not want, not to mention possibly having to fight HOAs (eventhough it's a FCC law, you still will have to fight it and waste time and energy). Outdoor antennas also have to be "installed" and mounted, where all i had to do with my Silver Sensor was grab an old 6 ft piece of coax plug it in and sit it on top of my TV.

Really when it comes down to it, it shouldn't be an argument one way or another. If the owner recieves all the signals they want and are happy with it, does it really matter?

A Mercedes and a Hyundai will both do the same job of getting me to work.... The Hyundai is (probably) the better option for me for various reasons (cost, insurance, maintenance, etc).

Monster Cables are measurably "better" than most other cables out there too but my eyes don't have sophisticated measuring equipment built into them, not to mention what can be measured electrically may not be what can be seen by human eyes. With that, I'm happy with my $10 Python component cables.

My goal with using an OTA set-top receiver was to pick up the Dayton digital stations. I had no requirement whatsoever to pick up Cincy or Columbus, for example. If I did, great. I wasn't disappointed when I didn't either. As a co-worker asked, does it matter if you watch "ER" on WDTN or WLWT or Columbus' NBC station ?? The fact that these stations may occassionally show something different isn't a concern or interest to me. If I can receive the Dayton digital stations using an indoor antenna and they work, I'm done. I'm happy. I don't make this into rocket science. It works or it doesn't work (for me).

Why would someone go out and buy and possibly pay someone (don't suggest *anyone* can install an outdoor antenna .... I know people who won't climb a ladder for fear of heights, let alone go out on a steep roof that's 25-30' high) to install an outdoor antenna if they don't need one ??

Anymore, it would seem that it's foolish for anyone to ask what kind of antenna they should use.

Why would someone go out and buy and possibly pay someone (don't suggest *anyone* can install an outdoor antenna .... I know people who won't climb a ladder for fear of heights, let alone go out on a steep roof that's 25-30' high) to install an outdoor antenna if they don't need one ??

Because with an outdoor antenna that is 25 to 30' high you can get 53 different stations that all show ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, WB, UPN, or reruns of Seinfeld. :rolleyes:

That way you don't need cable TV, Hall.

I think it's been well established that set top indoor antennas work well for some, while outdoor antennas work well for others. So whether it's more stations, insurance against signal loss, ease of install, lack of unsightly antenna on the roof, whatever - it mostly boils down to a matter of opinion.

I had talked about this point earlier in the thread and had come to this conclusion, and I just decided to drop it after others kept pressing the issue. Sorry for bringing the subject up again :o

all i had to do with my Silver Sensor was grab an old 6 ft piece of coax plug it in and sit it on top of my TV.


Which is great, and I'm glad you and Hall are getting great reception off your indoor antennas. But, everyone may not have that experience, even if they are relatively close to the towers for the stations they want to receive. There are *many* factors which can effect reception, and multipath+Indoor antennas is often an especially difficult issue to deal with with DTV. Just because it works for *you*, don't assume it will work just as well for your neighbor.


Really when it comes down to it, it shouldn't be an argument one way or another. If the owner recieves all the signals they want and are happy with it, does it really matter


Who is arguing here? Not me. In some cases, Indoor antennas work fine for folks, and in other cases they don't. The system (both analog and digital) we're using was DESIGNED for use with outdoor, directional receive antennas. That they often work to some extent from indoors is a great thing(something that isn't for instance the case with satellite - you have to have an outdoor antenna for that), but you CAN'T count on it.



Because with an outdoor antenna that is 25 to 30' high you can get 53 different stations that all show ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, WB, UPN, or reruns of Seinfeld.

That way you don't need cable TV, Hall.


You guys are really something else. You'll hear this sort of comment, and then when A Dayton station runs UD Basketball or Billy Graham, I'll come here and here folks complain that they can't watch CSI in HD ......

There are roughly(at any give time) usually about 25~35+ different programming choices available OTA from the Cincinnati/N KY+Dayton stations. 25 would be the LEAST amount when there is network programming on in prime time. It's not just from those networks and Seinfield. The 4 PBS stations in Cincinnati+Dayton alone have 16 SD subchannels, only a couple of which are "duplicates", then there's "the tube" Music videos from WXIX/etc .... If you want a "list", I can make one up if you'd like ....


Anymore, it would seem that it's foolish for anyone to ask what kind of antenna they should use.


I just love how you guys twist things around here. NOWHERE, in any shape or forum did I discourage the use of indoor antennas. They work just great for some folks, will they work as well as an outdoor antenna? Not likely. If a station has problems and has to reduce power, or if (god forbid) their tower collapses and they have to put up a temporary antenna at a lower height, is it as likely your indoor antenna will work vs. an outdoor antenna? I'll leave it up to you to answer that one ....

When a Dayton station has "technical issues" during a HD show you want to watch, it can also be very convienent to switch to your Cinncinnati or Columbus antenna, or use a rotor to reaim antenna and "change channels" ........ There are all sorts of reasons folks may have to choose an outdoor antenna install --- doesn't mean *you* have to do it, or that *you* are interested in those "reasons" .....

Tulanejames asked questions about indoor and outdoor antennas(and he even mentioned "best" reception). Since you did a fine job for the most part answering his indoor antenna questions, I concentrated on his outdoor antenna questions concerning antenna, mounting/etc.

Come on, Jeff, you're the one who suggested I use the $4 bowtie from RS and I appreciate that and am glad it worked. If I didn't already have the HDTVi on it's way, I might have just stuck with that one (the bowtie).

I know there are *potential* issues with using indoor antennas but many factors may make them more worthwhile for some people. I asked you about locating my antenna in the attic though I knew I might have trouble, especially because of the aluminum siding. I never considered shooting through the wood and shingles but you suggested it and it works better than going through the siding. Ease of use *does* factor in to this for some people. Tell my wife or kids that in order to change channels from WHIO to WBNS that in addition to changing the channel on the set-top, you also have to change direction on the antenna. Others are willing to build a tower, install antennas with rotors, etc, etc and good for them.

Back to tulanejames' post, according to antennaweb, which I think usually errs on the side of caution, i.e. recommending a larger antenna than needed just to be on the safe side, when they tell him to use an indoor antenna, personally, that's where I'd start.

Come on, Jeff, you're the one who suggested I use the $4 bowtie from RS and I appreciate that and am glad it worked.


Come on what? Yes, I suggested you could try the $4 bowtie for a inexpensive, but effective indoor antenna .....



I know there are *potential* issues with using indoor antennas but many factors may make them more worthwhile for some people.


Where did I say otherwise?



Back to tulanejames' post, according to antennaweb, which I think usually errs on the side of caution, i.e. recommending a larger antenna than needed just to be on the safe side, when they tell him to use an indoor antenna, personally, that's where I'd start.


Antennaweb isn't going to tell him to use an indoor antenna, because antennaweb only makes predictions for OUTDOOR antennas. From THIS link at antennaweb ( http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/info.aspx?page=more_info ) :

quote :

Indoor Antennas
Due to multiple variables in determining good reception in a specific location with indoor antennas, these antennas are not included in this mapping system. This mark[the little red checkmark graphic], however, assures that an indoor antenna meets or exceeds CEA performance specifications for indoor antennas in households that can use indoor antennas.

:end quote


Also, From the antenna web FAQ (available here in its entirety : http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/info.aspx?page=FAQ ) :

quote:

What are the basic rules for TV signal reception?
1. Outdoor is generally better. Outdoor antennas have a better view of the transmitting station, with no building-induced signal loss. They receive less interference from other household electronic/electrical appliances, and they are less likely to receive reflected ghost signals from the building structure.

2. Higher is better. The higher an antenna is, the more direct signal it can receive from the TV transmitter, while at the same time reducing the reception of interfering signals from other household electronic/electrical appliances and reflected ghost-causing signals from other nearby structures. The higher the better, but any antenna should be at least four feet above the structure to which it is mounted, and ideally above the roofline.

3. Closer is better. If a position above the roofline is not possible, the antenna should at least be on the side of your building facing the TV signal broadcast tower.

4. Bigger is better. The larger an antenna, the more signal it receives. This is especially important on channels 2-6, where the longer wavelength requires a larger antenna in order to be efficiently received. Larger antennas also become directional which reduces ghosting caused by reflected signals coming from the side and the rear of the receiving antenna.

Once the type of antenna you need is selected using this guide, careful attention must be paid to its installation. While not difficult to install, antennas are sensitive to installation details. For wood-frame buildings where the antenna will be situated on the roof's peak, the antenna should be at least four feet above the peak. When installed above a flat metal roof, the antenna should be at least ten feet above the roof. For multidirectional antennas, allow for some mounting flexibility so that the antenna can be moved a few feet in each direction in order to obtain the best picture on all channels before a permanent mounting position is selected.


Can I put an antenna in my attic?
Generally, antennas do not perform optimally in an attic. Even when an antenna will perform well outdoors, reception of TV signals in an attic can be made very difficult by interference from other electrical devices. The building's construction can also hinder the entrance of the TV signal or cause reflection of the signal, which leads to ghosting. Depending on building construction, you can expect to lose at least 30% of the signal. In a house with aluminum siding, signal loss could be 100%. Outdoor installation is always best.

:end quote



Tell my wife or kids that in order to change channels from WHIO to WBNS that in addition to changing the channel on the set-top, you also have to change direction on the antenna.


What else would you tell them if they didn't want to watch UD basketball they wanted to watch CBS HD from WBNS-DT?

Here, it's quite convienient as I have seperate Dayton+Cincinnati antennas and a A/B switch(with remote control) to switch between them. Just push "B" button and 7.1 for WHIO-DT, and "A" button and 12.1 for WKRC-DT ....

In some cases, Indoor antennas work fine for folks, and in other cases they don't. The system (both analog and digital) we're using was DESIGNED for use with outdoor, directional receive antennas. That they often work to some extent from indoors is a great thing(something that isn't for instance the case with satellite - you have to have an outdoor antenna for that), but you CAN'T count on it.

To further agree with this point: You can use an indoor dish to receive sat signals, provided you have a southern view window that doesn't reflect the signal (or don't mind having the window open during the winter).

My friend bought a HDTV CRT projector when we were living in the dorms in college. He used it mainly to watch DVDs from his computer and OTA via a HDTV tuner card. He also bought a E* dish and receiver to get signal from their HD satellite.

Just because you CAN receive signals indoors, doesn't mean its the best idea.

You can use an indoor dish to receive sat signals, provided you have a southern view window that doesn't reflect the signal (or don't mind having the window open during the winter).


Thanks for that correction - I realized that was sometimes the case, however I didn't mention that exception in the interest of keeping my post as short as possible, and also because my understanding was that usually doesn't turn out to be a "workable" option for folks ....

Also, Didn't I read somewhere that Plexiglass might sometimes work(without needing to keep the window "open") for such a "indoor" DBS setup?

Which is great, and I'm glad you and Hall are getting great reception off your indoor antennas. But, everyone may not have that experience, even if they are relatively close to the towers for the stations they want to receive. There are *many* factors which can effect reception, and multipath+Indoor antennas is often an especially difficult issue to deal with with DTV. Just because it works for *you*, don't assume it will work just as well for your neighbor.

I never once said that it will work for anyone else, I'm just saying that there is nothing wrong with trying an indoor antenna out FIRST (which is typically the cheaper/less obtrusive option) to see if it works for you... All i'm doing is disagreeing with your 2 comments of why you should start with an outdoor antenna.


Who is arguing here? Not me. In some cases, Indoor antennas work fine for folks, and in other cases they don't. The system (both analog and digital) we're using was DESIGNED for use with outdoor, directional receive antennas. That they often work to some extent from indoors is a great thing(something that isn't for instance the case with satellite - you have to have an outdoor antenna for that), but you CAN'T count on it.


I CAN count on my $30 silver sensor for what i need it for.

I never once said that it will work for anyone else, I'm just saying that there is nothing wrong with trying an indoor antenna out FIRST (which is typically the cheaper/less obtrusive option) to see if it works for you... All i'm doing is disagreeing with your 2 comments of why you should start with an outdoor antenna.


I DID NOT say "you should start with an outdoor antenna!"(not that there is anything *wrong* with that either if that's what you want to do) ... NO WHERE did I say there was anything wrong with trying an indoor antenna out FIRST if you so desire!

I WAS saying, a indoor antenna is not going to work "as GOOD" as an outdoor antenna except for rare exceptions where you may have more obstructions with your outdoor placement of antenna! THAT is not saying in any given case *you* won't be able to get "perfect" reception, 24/7, with NO recpetion dropouts from all the stations(as I do with an outdoor setup) you want to receive from indoors! That certianly CAN be the case, but it doesn't mean the antenna is working "as good" indoors as would be the case from outdoors ..

If you so desire to try indoor reception first, however, when possible it might turn out to be more "cost effective"(or less hassle with returns/etc) to start with a inexpensive OUTDOOR antenna(such as RS U75R for around $25, which again is going to offer better UHF performnace than a "setop Indoor" model), and install it INDOORS in your attic, and then if it is necessary to do so Move it outdoors .....

I DID NOT say "you should start with an outdoor antenna!"(not that there is anything *wrong* with that either if that's what you want to do) ... NO WHERE did I say there was anything wrong with trying an indoor antenna out FIRST if you so desire!


You didn't?


Why start with an expensive outdoor antenna plus installation and other misc hardware when a $15 indoor antenna works just as good ??


#1) Because, for one thing it won't work "as good", in nearly all circumstances - one exception to that might be if mounting the antenna outdoors means you'd have to say, aim through a thick brick wall, and indoors all you're shooting through is a window or ashphalt shingles/wood.

Having antenna indoors attenuates signal greatly, and generally decreases the antenna's performance as *anything* near the antenna becomes connected to it. Multipath/interference issues are often more of an issue with indoor antennas as well. Obviously, for those reasons a indoor antenna isn't going work work "just as good" as a outdoor install ....

Whether indoor antenna may work *well enough* for you and your particular circumstances, and for what you *want* is another matter entirely. I'd be really careful about applying your own experiences with reception to what others might experience, especially so with indoor reception. There are *many* factors which can be detrimental to reception, moreso with an indoor receive antenna .....

#2). As for expense, many outdoor antennas are less expensive than many of the available indoor "settop" type antennas, and are generally better performing antennas. RS U-75R is about 25 bucks, for instance. I'd even choose a U-75R for a attic installation over any indoor UHF "settop" type antenna. Various brackets and a short piece of mast, and anything else needed vs a attic install doesn't cost much either .....



It looks to me that Hall is asking why there is any reason to start with an outdoor antenna, and you are giving two reasons of why you should...

You didn't?

It looks to me that Hall is asking why there is any reason to start with an outdoor antenna, and you are giving two reasons of why you should...

And those *are* good reasons to start with an outdoor antenna if you so desire!

But, I was not taking issue with halls comment about trying indoor antenna first being one good option for folks .... Nothing wrong with that, if that's want they want to do! In fact, I thought I'd already made that clear in my first portion of my response to tulanejames' post ...

What I was specifically addressing concerning the below was, #1), the part about the indoor antenna working "just as good" ..... and #2), the part about the outdoor antenna being "expensive" .... An outdoor antenna install *can* be less expensive(and work better) than an indoor antenna for that matter .... For instance --- Stick "rabbit ears" and a $4 UHF bowtie outside on a porch or balcony, and they're likely to work better in many cases than *any* antenna indoors .....


Why start with an expensive outdoor antenna plus installation and other misc hardware when a $15 indoor antenna works just as good ??

Didn't I read somewhere that Plexiglass might sometimes work(without needing to keep the window "open") for such a "indoor" DBS setup?
Well, my friend used plastic over the open window to help keep the air out, so I would imagine plexiglass could work.

And those *are* good reasons to start with an outdoor antenna if you so desire!

But, I was not taking issue with halls comment about trying indoor antenna first being one good option for folks .... Nothing wrong with that, if that's want they want to do! In fact, I thought I'd already made that clear in my first portion of my response to tulanejames' post ...

What I was specifically addressing concerning the below was, #1), the part about the indoor antenna working "just as good" ..... and #2), the part about the outdoor antenna being "expensive" .... An outdoor antenna install *can* be less expensive(and work better) than an indoor antenna for that matter .... For instance --- Stick "rabbit ears" and a $4 UHF bowtie outside on a porch or balcony, and they're likely to work better in many cases than *any* antenna indoors .....

I guess i read it out of context...

An outdoor antenna install *can* be less expensive(and work better) than an indoor antenna for that matter .... For instance --- Stick "rabbit ears" and a $4 UHF bowtie outside on a porch or balcony, and they're likely to work better in many cases than *any* antenna indoors .....Yeah, that's a great idea. Now not only are the fugly bowtie and rabbit ears visible outside the house for the world to admire (all outdoor antennas are an eyesore, IMO), but Joe Sixpack also has to figure out how to properly drill through his house and weatherproof his connections. Not everybody wants (or has the ability) to do that, which seems to be the whole point here.

As KenH (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=3552826&&#post3552826) said, "99.44% of the time, the following apply: Bigger is better, Higher is better, Outside is better, Directional is better." However, just because it's better doesn't really mean that it's necessary. Hell, I can pick up all the Dayton digital stations with the antenna in my basement, but that doesn't mean that everyone can. However it does mean that technically it is possible, and if someone else wants to give it a try, I just want to let them know about it, along with the facts that I quoted above.

Yeah, that's a great idea. Now not only are the fugly bowtie and rabbit ears visible outside the house for the world to admire (all outdoor antennas are an eyesore, IMO), but Joe Sixpack also has to figure out how to properly drill through his house and weatherproof his connections. Not everybody wants (or has the ability) to do that, which seems to be the whole point here.


Unbelievable. This is what I said(below), and that's the response I get ? Oy. BTW, I specifically mentioned porch or balcony, because indoor antennas are not "waterproof" ...... :


An outdoor antenna install *can* be less expensive(and work better) than an indoor antenna for that matter .... For instance --- Stick "rabbit ears" and a $4 UHF bowtie outside on a porch or balcony, and they're likely to work better in many cases than *any* antenna indoors .....



(all outdoor antennas are an eyesore, IMO),


I disagree.

But, that's what this is mostly all about isn't it ?

Also, didn't you say you were using a sat dish(Dish or DirecTV) ? Believe it or not, THAT's an outdoor antenna ........


However it does mean that technically it is possible.

It isn't allways "technically" possible .....


However, just because it's better doesn't really mean that it's necessary.


I *never* said it was necessary, or desired in *every* case. I think it's great if you(or others) desire to use an indoor antenna, and it works perfectly well for you to receive all the stations you want.

One reason why an outdoor antenna is necessary for me is that there are several stations of importance to me which can't be received with an indoor antenna at my location. That was true in the past and currently with analog, and is true currently with digital as well. It's just not "techncially" possible to receive those stations with an indoor antenna, here, it *is* more than possible to receive them with an outdoor antenna .....


I just want to let them know about it,


And we appreciate your reports of how good *your* reception with indoor antenna is ......

there's nothing wrong with what I said.


I had no issue with any of your previous posts or comments. There was however, nothing wrong with what I said which you responded to, and yet you were the one who couldn't leave the issue alone.


You seem like the type of guy who has to get the last word in on everything, which is good sometimes, but is generally just plain annoying.


That's nice, but this is all about tulanejames post, and how we answered it. He didn't say he "didn't want to put up" an outdoor antenna. He asked about indoor antennas, and outdoor antennas, and he mentioned "best reception". A few of us tried our best to answer those questions. When I pointed out some of the reasons an indoor antenna doesn't work as well as an outdoor setup, I got a bunch of nonsense for it, that is STILL continuing.

And no, I'm not going to let that go, I don't care how much it annoys you. It has nothing to do with getting in the "last word", it is about posting accurate information which is useful to folks, and it is about AVSforum and this thread being the best resource it can be. They can be useful at times, but believe it or not, when it comes to "opinions" such as whether you think an outdoor antenna is "fugly", that is really not information that is very useful for folks.


Besides, depending on the wind direction, I still get rain on my porch/balcony. To put an antenna outside and expect it not to get wet is foolish.YES!!


You are missing what I was saying about that entirely. Run your coax and stick your antenna outside "temporarily", and see what happens to your reception of say, Cincinnati stations you can't currently receive very well from indoors. One could *make* and even *hide* a "homemade" version of "rabbit ears" made out of wire "outdoors" for an inexpenive VHF antenna, or a folded UHF dipole made out of a bit of copper tubing for instance ......


Again, it's nice to finally hear you say that.

You obviously need to pay more attention. I've said that at least 4 or 5 times in my past several posts already.


I don't see what's wrong with telling people that, tempered by the knowledge that it won't work for everyone.


There is nothing wrong with telling folks what you're using, and that you like it(or don't like it), and how your reception is ..... Who said there was?


Great, which like I've said all along, is all a matter of opinion and what you want personally out of an antenna setup.


It's also a matter of what will(or may) work and what won't, and what the poster is interested in(Just the Dayton stations, or also Cincinnati or Columbus), and their location/etc. That's what folks who are coming here and asking questions are mostly intersted in hearing about, not what your or my opinion is concerning the "looks" of outdoor antennas ......

Thanks for proving my point. Nothing I said was misleading or incorrect, yet you can't leave it alone. Whatever. Your novel-length responses that basically just say the same thing over and over do more harm than good IMO. Apparently I missed whatever you said "4 or 5 times" because it was in the middle of a bunch of other crap.

By the way, I'm done talking about this. If you still have issues with me, then PM me. I just think it's time we stop clogging the thread with all this nonsense.

Your novel-length responses that basically just say the same thing over and over do more harm than good IMO.


I do the best I can to provide correct, accurate, and when necessary sometimes detailed information that will hopefully be useful for folks. Sometimes that can't be done in a short post. I am allways grateful if I make a mistake and others provide corrected info .....


Apparently I missed whatever you said "4 or 5 times" because it was in the middle of a bunch of other crap.


Nice to hear my posts and the time I contribute here referred to as "crap" ....


If you still have issues with me, then PM me.


No thanks. I have no issues with "you", and don't see what good sending you a PM would do, anyway. This isn't personal, if you're going to make comments on my posts here, if I have a reason to say something in response, I most certianly will do so to the extent I feel is necessary.


I just think it's time we stop clogging the thread with all this nonsense.


If you think you are posting "nonsense", Why are you doing it ?

Last night, I was flipping between WDTN's 2-1 and 2-2 channels. It's the first time I've watched Leno in HD and it is very impressive, by the way. When I flipped to WDTN-SD, my set-top was set to stretch mode and it looked horrible. I changed it to pillarbox mode and it improved, but it still looked really, really bad. I was really expecting a much cleaner picture, not HD quality, of course, but better than I get on TWC with their analog feed. In fact, I'd venture to say that the analog (over the air) feed looks just as good as their SD digital feed.

Am I expecting too much or is this normal ?? I recall people in the past suggesting to others to get a digital, OTA receiver even for their analog (non-HD) television because the picture will be much better.

Last night, I was flipping between WDTN's 2-1 and 2-2 channels. It's the first time I've watched Leno in HD and it is very impressive, by the way. When I flipped to WDTN-SD, my set-top was set to stretch mode and it looked horrible. I changed it to pillarbox mode and it improved, but it still looked really, really bad. I was really expecting a much cleaner picture, not HD quality, of course, but better than I get on TWC with their analog feed. In fact, I'd venture to say that the analog (over the air) feed looks just as good as their SD digital feed.


Yep, I agree .... HD Leno looks very nice, 2.2 looks really bad, much WORSE than the analog IMO. In addition to the MPEG2 compression artifacts, it also looks like they may even be using softening "filters" on it ...

Another interesting experiment you might want to try would be to hook up your STB to a regular old "4x3" analog TV though via 480i out from the box(composite or S-video connection/etc), and see what you get, as it's possible some of what you are seeing *may* also be due to any upconversion/scaling to your set's native scan rate by the STB or your set/etc .. With the 480i "native" analog TV though -- I think you'll still probably see that 2.2 doesn't look all that great there either, though compared to the analog ...


Am I expecting too much or is this normal ??


I Don't think you're expecting too much. Compare it to WPTD-DT's SD digital subchannel quality, that should be more along the lines of what you're expecting(especially 16.3 I think) altough I think the *best* SD digital quality available OTA currently in this area is from WCVN-DT (KET) in Northern KY ...


I recall people in the past suggesting to others to get a digital, OTA receiver even for their analog (non-HD) television because the picture will be much better.

It CAN be, however, 1080i HD (such as WDTN-DT's HD subchannel) *really* needs a lot of bandwidth for high quality HD pictures with minimal MPEG2 compression artifacts ... Actually, during bandwidth demanding programming 1080i sometimes needs ALL the bandwidth available.

Also, keep in mind your STB(or any ATSC receiver, even if its SD only) can, and will downconvert HD and send it as SD to a "analog" TV, so there's really no reason to use that "2.2" with any ATSC receiver, even with a "SD" TV ... 2.1 should look much better on even a analog TV than 2.2 does, but really can't be any better than any other of the "best" SD sources, and even analog OTA NTSC can look VERY good given pristine reception/etc ...

Only thing Is, I don't know if all ATSC receivers out there will for example, let you "crop out" the sides of a 16x9 ATSC format when you send a 480i SD signal from the receiver so the picture "fills the screen" rather than being "letterboxed" on a 4x3 TV ... Mine will, but don't know about other models ...

Question concerning TWC 8300 HD DVR box. On the following reviews from an online store, this Vantec NST-360SU-BK external hard drive box has esata connection that will work with the 8300 box to increase the DVR storage capacity. (esata socket on back of 8300 box) Has anyone tried this? This is the link to the review site:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/CustratingReview.asp?item=N82E16817145167
Pros: I connected this to my Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8300HD to increase the DVR storage capacity from 160MB to 560MB. Upon applying power to the 8300HD, it formatted the eSATA drive with no problems.
Three people reported this working. This would be a great feature if it works.

The 8300HD DVRs that TW has DO NOT support SATA external drives. It simply isn't in the software (yet). DVRs that use SARA software are able to use external drives. TW here doesn't use SARA and it's not something an end-user can "install".

That is disappointing! Other cable providers using SARA software can use this feature but we with TW Passport can not.
Thanks for the response Hall.

From everything I've read, this one feature is the ONLY thing better about SARA....

Looks like it's official, from first portion of Acme press release : (http://www.acmecommunications.com/pages/news_releases.html?d=95500)



The CW and ACME Communications Announce Long-Term Television Station Affiliation Agreements

America's Fifth Broadcast Network Increases National Coverage to
Almost 60 Percent of the Country

ACME's Full WB Station Portfolio (In Albuquerque, Knoxville,
Dayton, Ft. Myers, Green Bay, Champaign and Madison) to Join
Rapidly Growing CW Affiliate Line-Up

ACME to Become Third Largest CW Affiliate Group Based on
Number of Stations

SANTA ANA, Calif., March 9, 2006 -- The CW and ACME Communications, Inc. (Nasdaq:ACME) announced today the signing of long-term affiliation agreements for ACME's television stations in Albuquerque-Santa Fe, Knoxville, Dayton, Ft. Myers-Naples, Green Bay-Appleton, Champaign-Springfield-Decatur and Madison.


The addition of these seven ACME Communications stations increases The CW's national coverage to almost 60% of the country. America's fifth broadcast network has affiliates in 19 of the Top 20 markets and 26 in the Top 30.

The newly signed affiliates are: KWBQ-TV Albuquerque-Santa Fe, NM; WBXX-TV Knoxville, TN; WBDT-TV Dayton, OH; WTVK-TV Ft. Myers-Naples, FL; WIWB-TV Green Bay-Appleton, WI; WBUI-TV Champaign-Springfield-Decatur, IL; and WBUW-TV Madison, WI.

Post updated:

WKEF-DT dropped frames with ZenithHDV420 receiver update :

As of 9:20pm tonight(Friday, 3/10) during HD "In Justice" : The dropped frames issue I was getting from WKEF-DT, and only with ZenithHDV420 receiver(not my other 2 receiver models) during film or HD 24p sources from ABC HD feed now appears to be fixed.

Sent a report to Sinclair Engineer in Columbus about it a couple of days ago -- He reported #1). WKEF-DT installed a newer model MPEG2 Encoder about 3 weeks ago(the same time I began seeing the problem), and #2). that they would work on getting the issue fixed. Evidently, they had some kinks to work out with it .... In any case, it's now looking very good currently with the Zenith decoder!

Is anyone else having trouble with ESPNHD pixellating? I have TW and for the last week or so - ESPN will pixellate off and on and become virtually unwatchable... Just checking to see if anyone else had this problem and if anyone knew an explanation! Thanks!

Is anyone else having trouble with ESPNHD pixellating? I have TW and for the last week or so - ESPN will pixellate off and on and become virtually unwatchable... Just checking to see if anyone else had this problem and if anyone knew an explanation! Thanks!

I was having this issue for the UNC/Duke game last Saturday. I haven't seen it since then though.

Is anyone else having trouble with ESPNHD pixellating? I have TW and for the last week or so - ESPN will pixellate off and on and become virtually unwatchable... Just checking to see if anyone else had this problem and if anyone knew an explanation! Thanks!

I've seen it. Not that bad tho.....

I've seen it. Not that bad tho.....


I've been seeing it too. The screen freezes for a second or two but the sound keeps going. VERY annoying during a basketball game. I am on TWC. Anyone having this same problem on Dish or DirecTV?

Same here. Between this and CBS its almost unbearable to watch.

Same here. Between this and CBS its almost unbearable to watch.


From postings in the HDTV programming forum, it looks as if the trouble is with ESPN, not with any provider. Lets hope they get it fixed in time for the NCAA tournament at Dayton this Tuesday.

I've got a Humax HFA100 and previously I haven't had any problems with WDTN 2.1, 2.2. I rarely use this tuner but I noticed some time within the past month or so, the Humax no longer puts 2.1 HD in its channel line up while 2.2 SD is in the lineup. I can manually enter 2.1 and it displays, but there's something goofy going on when going up/down the line up where it tunes in 2.2 but skips over 2.1 and also skips the next channel in the lineup. I can can go back to the skipped channel but can never get to 2.1. My Sony DHG-HDD 250 DVR doesn't have a problem with 2.1 or 2.2 so I don't know if something changed with WDTN's broadcast that the Humax doesn't like or something has gone wrong with the unit. Has anyone experienced an issue like this?

I called TWC last night and complained about the freezing on ESPNHD. The CSR seemed completely unaware of the problem, of course. She said she had relayed the info to the lead engineer, but she may have just been blowing me off.

As far as it being a national problem... I happen to have Directv at the moment as well and can tell you the problem does NOT occur on their feed. So maybe it is a TWC national issue but it doesn't seem to be a ESPNHD national issue.

So maybe it is a TWC national issue but it doesn't seem to be a ESPNHD national issue. There isn't anything "TWC national" to tie issues like these together. I'm sure that TW is pulling the programming down from ESPN's satellite feed, either in Kettering or North Dayton and feeding it to you.

Has anyone experienced an issue like this?

FWIW, I haven't had any problems with the issue you describe and the following receivers : ZenithHDV420, Hisense DB-2010, Internal ATSC receiver in Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV.

Have you tried a "channel rescan"? Sometimes, with some receivers it's necessary to "reset" the receiver's internal VCT info when a station changes it's PSIP stream, in order for your receiver to properly "use" the new PSIP info from the station. If a channel scan doesn't work, you might want to contact WDTN engineering and report the issue your having.

In case it helps, one thing I have noticed has been occuring from WDTN-DT for over a year now is that they've been sending their program streams as follows :

Note: The 50-x "numbers" are without use of PSIP, with receiver that can "ignore" PSIP and just use the RF channel #/MPEG2 program stream # from info from the PID's and/or MPEG2 PAT/PMT to properly "identify" and decode the streams :

50-3 - WDTN-DT SD (this is 2.2 via PSIP channel remapping)

50-4 - WDTN-DT HD (this is 2.1 via PSIP channel remapping)

Prior to a little over a year ago, they were dong it the other way around around -- 50-1 being HD(remapped to 2.1), 50-2 being SD (remapped to 2.2). I wouldn't think this should *really* cause any problems though(other than some receiver's needing a "rescan" back when they changed it), as long as their PSIP tables are set up correctly - but, who knows ....

Props to WHIO for again multicasting NCAA games this year (one game on analog 7 and one on the digital station).

http://www.whiotv.com/marchmania/7969432/detail.html

Agreed. Thanks WHIO.


Although it appears that WBNS will at times show 4 games. Looks like I might need to change my antenna.......

Props to WHIO for again multicasting NCAA games this year (one game on analog 7 and one on the digital station).

http://www.whiotv.com/marchmania/7969432/detail.html

Is this actually multicasting considering it looks like they won't have the SD Subchannel, just different feeds on analog and DT?

Since many comments about it are being posted in Cincinnati thread, but none here so far :

Just thought I'd post here about what an excellent job I thought WHIO did yesterday with the NCAA Tourney coverage, especially the HD games on the digital station<jinx alert> ...

Because with an outdoor antenna that is 25 to 30' high you can get 53 different stations that all show ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, WB, UPN, or reruns of Seinfeld. :rolleyes:

That way you don't need cable TV, Hall.

You forgot infomercials and Grade Z movies. :)

I'm not sure what games are in HD for the NCAA's right now, as I've had to resort to smuggling a 5" B&W set into work and mostly just listening to the audio. (Can't get the games on WING radio in this building...)

You forgot infomercials and Grade Z movies. :)


Let's see, who was it here in the past which told us what a great job WBNS was doing multicasting the NCAA tourney, and back when WHIO was multicasting, about WBNS-DT's HD PQ ;)

KUDOS to WRGT-DT for running FOX HD, the rescheduled Atlanta NASCAR race currently -- WXIX has their "normal" programming(Judge mathis or whatever) up ...

Could someone explain why CBS has 3" wide blue hash marks mainly on the left hand side of HD broadcasts? I notice this both OTA & on TWC. I also have a friend in Huber Heights with TWC that shows this on his tv also. Ive tried searching this thread but to no avail.

Thanks

Could someone explain why CBS has 3" wide blue hash marks mainly on the left hand side of HD broadcasts? I notice this both OTA & on TWC. I also have a friend in Huber Heights with TWC that shows this on his tv also. Ive tried searching this thread but to no avail.

Thanks

You're searching for the wrong term, try "blue lines"

this url should be a search for it:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?searchid=5962738

Thanks browerjs

3" wide ?? Not everyone notices these "phantom" blue lines, but if they're 3" wide, they'd be rather hard to miss !

Can someone take a picture of this ?? I've never seen it but I'm also color-deficient. I'll ask my wife if it's visible. She's never mentioned it but then again, I'm not sure that she would.

hall, I mis typed. They are 3" apart.

Sinclair and The Tube Music Network announce agreement to Launch "The Tube" in 28 New Markets -- see here :

http://www.sbgi.net/press/release_2006323_151.shtml

http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/news/tvstations/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002235068

http://www.baltimoresun.com/entertainment/tv/bal-bz.sinclair24mar24,0,2974734.story?track=rss

-------------------------

Will Dayton be one of those markets via WKEF-DT(owned by Sinclair) or WRGT-DT(operated by Sinclair) ? We'll see I suppose .... I'd guess it might be a very good possibility ... BTW, WXIX-DT(Raycomm owned Fox affiliate) Cincinnati has had SD multicast of "The Tube" for about a year now ...

and it sucks :)

Any chance of seeing any Reds or Dragons games in HD this year? FSN - Cincinnati must be the last RSN that is not HD.

I just got my HDTV and setup my digital antenna. It works pretty good, except the local stations should have more HD content. PBS HD should be on all day long. And the other digital channels should switch to the 16:9 aspect ratio (including commercials).

I just got my HDTV and setup my digital antenna. It works pretty good, except the local stations should have more HD content. PBS HD should be on all day long. And the other digital channels should switch to the 16:9 aspect ratio (including commercials).

Why would you want the stations to not broadcast in OAR? If you want to fill up your entire display, just use the stretch functionality that is most likely a feature on your television.

Well I tried both the terk hdtva and i, neither worked very well for me in Beavercreek. I bought the winegard pr 8800 and mounted it outdoors on a mast that extends about 15 feet above my single story house. All my local digital stations come in at almost full strengh on the xrb960, except abc and pbs 16. Both these stations jump around on the signal meter sometimes they even break up. It seems that I can turn the antenna and get one station in stronger while the other station begins to break up. My mast is extened as high as I feel is safe. It is odd that I receive pbs, wb, cbs, and nbc out of ciny though. Some of the ciny stations are actully stronger than my local abc and pbs. Can someone help me with my options for a stronger signal on abc and pbs? Would a pre-amp work? If so, do you have any options on which one? Or are there any other solutions short of putting up a second antenna? I am between 10 and 11 miles from the towers.

Tulanejames,

Some thoughts follow, hope some of it is of some use :

I) Signal meters, including KD34XBR960's "diagnostics" screen :

Keep in mind the meters on our receivers don't usually measure "signal strength", and that includes the XBR960's diagnostic screen, including the "signal bar" at the top .. They usually are looking at the datastream rather than the actual OTA signal. You can have high/steady readings and a relatively weak signal just a few db over the threshold required for reception(about 16db SNR), or a strong signal and low readings due to multipath or interference. Bouncing around meter readings usually indicate multipath or problems with interference. Multipath which the receiver can't correct for is just seen as extra "noise" by the receiver ....

On the XBR960's "diagnostic" screen -- If you do have a "clean enough" signal for it to do much of anything with ----(Note: multipath or interference to the point the bar at top "drops" to below "41" will just "confuse it" to the point it can't "figure out" what's going on, even though the signal may be VERY strong) : From what I've seen(again, given a "clean enough" signal) Lower AGC (Automatic gain control)reading -- such as in the range of AGC : 18~25% --- will generally indicate a very strong signal, I've seen weak "clean" signals with AGC readings as high as about 44% ... The "SNR(signal to noise ratio)" reading will never go above about 33db(regardless of how strong the signal is - even if you had for instance 50db more signal than you'd need), for reasons having nothing to do with signal strength. 15~16DB SNR is about the "threshold" required for reception so, as as long as it allways stays above ~16db SNR, you should achieve perfect reception.

Given a "clean enough"(multipath or interference wise) signal, you can sometimes get a bit of an idea how strong the signals actually are by adding additional attenuation in feedline to see how much "add'l attenuation" it takes before you get down to near threshold levels of reception. As one example, In my case, 12 miles from Dayton towers, it takes as much as 60db extra attenuation added into feedline to just get to the point of losing reception.

II). What is likely to be causing your problem?

Since "interference" shouldn't be an issue here, I think chances are good its probably mulitpath that is your problem effecting your reception(and causing the meter to "bounce around") of Dayton ABC(transmits on UHF channel 51) and Dayton PBS (transmits on UHF Channel 58). Keep in mind that Multipath is often *very* frequency(channel) specific.

A preamp probably wouldn't help, as you should be getting strong signals at your distance. Strong signals(including on "other" channels) can cause "overload" problems, and thats why preamps are often not a great idea with an outdoor antenna within 20~30 miles or so of stations. One possible exception to that might be if you had a large hill near you blocking the signal path to the towers -- Terrain issues also often make things much "worse" the higher the channel/frequency --- Add some terrain issues+multipath issues together, and it could make getting solid reception on those high UHF channels more difficult. BTW, the highest Channel a Cincinnati digital station is using currently is channel 35 ....

I'd also bet if you've got some trees relatively near you to your WSW, when the wind blows the tree limbs around(probably espeically so if the leaves are off but could be the other way around and be worse when the leaves are on the trees), you probably get more "dropouts" and "bouncing around meter readings" on Dayton ABC+PBS ... That's a sure sign dynamic multipath conditions are effecting your reception .....

III). what can you do about it?

This can be a *very* difficult issue to deal with. Best things I could think of to suggest would be :

#1). If you can't find a "sweet spot" for reception from all the Dayton stations by aiming the antenna a little "differently"(sometimes right "on target" isn't the best way to aim it when multipath issues are involved) -- Try Moving the antenna around to try to find a "sweet spot" for reception for all the stations. That may not be a "higher" spot -- it might be lower, it might be to the left or two the right, or forward or backward, or on the other side of your house from where the antenna is currently mounted -- sometimes, even 6" or a foot one way or another(even up or down) can make a *big* difference -- UHF wavelengths are very short, and hence there can be "hot spots" and "cold spots" everywhere ....

Keep in mind however -- that "sweet spot" might be different depending upon whether the leaves are on the trees or not, as that can change the multipath conditions, and the "sweetest spot" for any given station is probably different than for other stations - you want to find a sweet spot that works for *all 6* Dayton digital stations, though, and sometimes that can end up being quite difficult. Seems like they are hard to come by thesse days, but A knowlegable, skilled professional OTA antenna installer would do a "site test" and use equipment such as spectrum analyzer to find that "sweet spot" to mount the antenna.

#2). If you can "fix it" for different stations by changing aiming direction of antenna a bit manually -- you could add a rotor so you can do it more easily from indoors .... I certianly wouldn't want to have to do that for say, the Dayton stations though, so I'd probably try to get the "most" out of #1 first ... although, a rotor would probably be a good idea for you if you want best reception of Cincinnati or Columbus stations as well ....

#3). You could try a different antenna model -- Again, I'd try to get the most out of #1 above first -- but, it's possible a Yagi *might* handle the multipath conditions a little better in your situation than the 8-bay bowtie. There's no way to say for sure, but some folks say a yagi can be better than the bowties when shooting through trees.

IV) Add'l comments :

Wish I had an "easier" answer for you. However, unfortunetely, when you run into difficulties with this particular problem (multipath issues on certian channels), it can sometimes be a particularly difficult issue to deal with .... probably particularly so when it involves wind+tree limbs blowing around, the higher UHF channels, and probably especially if there is also a bit of terrain issue(or other signal "blocking" issue) mixed in as well ...

I know Jim tressler has run into this issue in the past with some dayton stations when the wind blows(think he said it's only a problem for him when the leaves are off trees)+with some of the Dayton stations, perhaps he could pass along what has helped him out with this ....

Good luck+let us know how it goes ....

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4/3/06 Update: I just found these excellent articles at a blog written by an antenna design engineer at Winegard which should help you out :

How do I improve the Digital Signal strength Level? (http://otahdtv.blogspot.com/2005/08/how-do-i-improve-digital-signal.html)

So, I got an Outdoor antenna, where should I put it? (http://otahdtv.blogspot.com/2005/11/so-i-got-outdoor-antenna-where-should.html)

Why is one antenna better than another? (http://otahdtv.blogspot.com/2005/08/why-is-one-antenna-better-than-another.html)

Some interesting recent filings concerning the future of digital Low Power stations in the Dayton/Lima area I thought I'd post a little info on :

1st - the easiest one to explain - -- W17AA Celina(low power translator for WPTD 16) - has filed an application with FCC to "Flash cut" to digital on channel 17. If/when FCC grants them a construction permit for this, they'll have 3 years before the permit expires, meaning anytime in that 3 years they could make the transistion to digital. I wonder if they will be passing throgh WPTD-DT's datastream, including the HD+ the multicast services?

---------------------------------------

2nd - I just ran across an interesting displacement application for W66AQ Dayton -- In case you aren't familiar with it --- W66AQ is a analog, low power translator for WSTR 64 Cincinnati -- They'll of course eventually need to move off channel 66 into the core channels(ch 2-51), as channel 52~69 are being reallocated for other uses besides broadcast TV after analog shut off - Therefore, at some point, they will need to move to somewhere within channel 2-51 - When that happens, the FCC will issue them a new callsign with whatever channel they end up on included in the callsign .. Such as was the case with W20CL, Springfield, OH (TBN LP translator - analog currently), which was W47BC and moved to channel 20 several months ago.

I didn't even realize W66AQ was still on the air, however. If it is, can anyone confirm this? Their current directional antenna pattern on FCC site shows they only should be squirting about 77 Watts ERP in my direction(therefore I see nothing on 66 except "snow"), but it looks like it should cover the City Of Dayton to some extent.

Anyhow -- basicially Their displacement app proposes that :

#1) W66AQ move to channel 22 and go digital, and they propose to continue to use it as translator for WSTR. Note : WSTR is currently Cincinnati WB HD affiliate, but will become a "MynetworkTV" affiliate in Fall 2006. WBDT Dayton(currently WB HD) will become a CW network affiliate next fall. MyNetworkTV is a new network owned by Fox - which will reportedly have such programming as remakes of spanish soap operas - don't know if they have any HD plans. Keep in mind, Sinclair owns WKEF and WSTR(and W66AQ), and operates WRGT under a LMA.

#2). They propose "repurposing" existing analog WKEF 22 facilities for W66AQ digital on 22(including transmitting antenna) but with reduced power.

I suppose it is just procedural, but an interference agreement between WSTR(W66AQ) and WKEF is attached to the application .... obviously, #1). a digital+analog station transmitting at the same time on the same channel(and using the same antenna no less)in the same area would most certianly "interfere" with each other and won't "work" .... and obviously #2). WKEF 22 analog will not be an "interference" issue after feb 2009 analog shut off when WKEF 22 analog will go off air. That threw me a bit at first however, as I was wondering #1). why would they need an interference agreement with a station that won't "be there" on 22 after analog shut off? And, #2) I wonder why they didn't mention anything about analog shut off and WKEF signing off of Channel 22 in Feb 2009? Again, just "procedural" I suppose .....

Also, exhibit 1 in the application specifies digital operation for W66AQ on channel 22 -- the attached engineering exhibit specifies an analog facility where power and LP analog 74dbu contour/etc is concerned. I suppose this is probably "procedural" as well, and if FCC grants the proposal, they would then probably need to file a "flash cut" to digital for a minor mod of the Construction permit with "specifications" included for digital station instead.

Note that WKEF originally chose channel 22 for digital after analog shut off, but interference conflicts were found. Just a WAG -- but I'd guess 1st adjacent channel interference conflict with WBNS-DT 21 Columbus might have been an issue if WKEF-DT were "high power" digital on 22. They chose to solve the interference conflict by "changing" their choice for post-transistion operation to their current digital channel (51).

Also note that from the "coordinate" info for the towers shown on Dayton stations on FCC site -- WKEF analog is apparently the only station using WKEF tower, although WKEF's CE had told me at one point that the WRCX-LP 40(MBC Network, alalog currently) antenna was also on WKEF tower. ... Also according to the coordinate info on FCC site .... WBDT/WRGT analog, and WKEF-DT/WBDT-DT/WRGT-DT appear to all share WRGT's tower, which they added a top crossmember to several years ago -- There are 3 visable masts at top of it from what I can tell ....

In any case -- I would imagine a low power digital station on channel 22 would have quite a nice coverage area using the current WKEF channel 22 antenna on top of WKEF's tower, and also would be a good way to "make use" of WKEF analog's tower/transmitting antenna ..... I think it will also be interesting to see what happens with "MyNetworkTV" HD wise ... If they don't "do" HD --- That might be quite the oppurtunity for WSTR (and W66AQ) to implement SD multicasting or datacasting services .....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here are the links to the W66AQ displacement application+exhibits attached to the applications currently available from FCC site (most require acrobat reader) :

The W66AQ displacement application with a channel 22 digital proposal :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101122751&formid=346&fac_num=11203

Comprehensive technical exhibit from the Consulting engineer(includes detailed info on the proposal as well as predicted coverage map - quite a bit more coverage than the current W66AQ analog facility, BTW) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=393895

Interference agreement between WSTR(W66AQ) +WKEF :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=393894

Why would you want the stations to not broadcast in OAR? If you want to fill up your entire display, just use the stretch functionality that is most likely a feature on your television.

I was expecting it as well on my TV, but it doesn't look like it is there. The NCAA game was in widescreen format, but it seems like some stations are not shooting their shows in the 16:9 format.

If the show isn't in the 16:9 format then it isn't HD, with very few exceptions.

I went into diagnostic mode on my TWC 8300 box last night at ~7:30 to watch WBDT-DT, and found that it wasn't broadcasting on 726. The guide data was there (like with WDTN-DT on 702), but there was no picture. Did TWC take WBDT-DT out of the diagnostic mode?

Phil

I was expecting it as well on my TV, but it doesn't look like it is there.

Now might be a good time to tune to WHIO-DT (7.1) ...

Excellent HD PQ on WHIO-DT currently for 1st round HD masters coverage .... Commercials I've seen so far have been HD as well ....

Anyone try getting an 8300 HD dvr from twc lately? How bout an 8000 hd or even a 3250 hd. Seems theres a major shortage of boxes in the Dayton area. Specifically the main office in Kettering. I've known of at least 10 people who can only get a 3100 (junk) at best. They had the Pace box for while but it seems they ran out of that now. what's the deal with the shotage of HD boxes?

I've been told by numerous people that they're completely out of DVRs, including HD-DVRs. If you get one, it's been returned by a customer. I haven't heard of shortages of plain HD boxes though. This is a GOOD THING though. That means all those people buying HDTVs finally have a clue and realize they need HD programming !

Notice WHIO-DT is inserting local graphics(weather watch maps+weather info ticker) into the HD masters coverage this afternoon -- Not many stations have that capability, currently ...

I was confused by The Masters being on.... I had the news on at 5 and walked away and when I came back, saw Vijay Singh in HD. The guide on TW says the normal news is on tonight though.

WHIO did break into the masters coverage for weather coverage/news from the studio earlier.

USA/CBS has "partnered" on the early round coverage on Thur and Fri the past few years or so -- CBS HD affiliates are "allowed" (but not required) to air the HD coverage ... More info can be found in masters related threads in AVSforum programming area .....

I went into diagnostic mode on my TWC 8300 box last night at ~7:30 to watch WBDT-DT, and found that it wasn't broadcasting on 726. The guide data was there (like with WDTN-DT on 702), but there was no picture. Did TWC take WBDT-DT out of the diagnostic mode?

Phil

I noticed this as well... Are there any other channels that are accessible in DIAG mode?

Sorry if this has been covered before.... why does WKEF ABC 22.1 OTA look like an analog broadcast? When the screen goes black between commercials/shows or during darker scenes you can see some sort of white interference bands scrolling upward? I see this on 2 different tuners and TV's and can freeze it with my Sony OTA DVR so I know it's not an analog connection issue between it and the TV. I've noticed this for a while, more so with watching Minority Report (although they're not broadcasting it in HD?!) which has a lot of dark scenes.

Great job by the folks at WHIO this morning, I called at 8 AM asking them to switch to the HD coverage of the continuation of the 3rd rd. of The Masters after seeing that other CBS affiliates were passing the feed. The lady in the news department had no idea what I was talking about, and said it would be in HD later this afternoon. She actually transferred me to the control room, and he too had no idea of what the USA/CBS partnership was, or how WHIO was multicasting on Thurs and Fri. He said he would have to call around and get permission to make the switch if it was at all possible. 30 minutes later HD continuation of the 3rd round :) Today is gonna be a nice 8-9 hours of sitting on the couch and watching golf!

I noticed this as well... Are there any other channels that are accessible in DIAG mode?

'Fraid not. You can play a card game on channel 800 or 801, and that's about it.

Phil

CC Rakesh package.

Anyone know what the deal is with channels 1900-1914? They show up as programmed in the CC, but there's no signal. Even the digitals will show that they're 480i channels, even with no audio or video. When I query 1900-1914 for properties, it just come up as "VIVID". No picture size or anything.

Also, again just wondering ... used to have 750 and 751 in the package -- 2 throwaway extra PBS channels from Cincinnati, but they vanished about 4-5 months ago. Still show up as part of the HD Tier on Yahoo TV, but not where I sit. Not that they're worth anything, mind you, I'm just curious.

C'ya
CRan

Channels 1900-1914 look like "Family Tier" channels. Many of the lineup changes we've seen are being done so that Dayton and Cincy's channel numbering is as similar as possible. TW Cincy has the "Family Tier" available already. From their website, though they don't list this tier anywhere else that I can find:

Time Warner Cable also has a new way to receive more family-friendly programming in your home with Family Choice a package of 15 Digital Cable channels. There are great channels the whole family can view together. Family Choice can help you feel more comfortable about what’s on TV and what your kids are watching. (Please note that in order to add Family Choice tier, you must subscribe to Basic Cable service.)

http://www.timewarnercable.com/cincinnati/programming/parentalcontrols.html

Channels 750 and 751 are WCET, are they not ?? Those show up in some areas of Western Ohio, but not others. I've NEVER gotten inside the city.

I went into diagnostic mode on my TWC 8300 box last night at ~7:30 to watch WBDT-DT, and found that it wasn't broadcasting on 726. The guide data was there (like with WDTN-DT on 702), but there was no picture. Did TWC take WBDT-DT out of the diagnostic mode?

Phil

yeah, they shut it off a little over a week ago, i was pretty mad. keep checking back, and eventually it will return.

There was a sheet in this month's bill with the listing of the "Family Tier" channels on it.

Hall, you're on the "City of Dayton" lineup, right? That lineup doesn't get WKRC or WCET, but both the north and south suburbs do. I get WCET digitals on QAM channel 109 in Beavercreek....or at least I used to. I'll have to rescan with the Fusion card to see if things have changed.

Channels 1900-1914 look like "Family Tier" channels. Many of the lineup changes we've seen are being done so that Dayton and Cincy's channel numbering is as similar as possible. TW Cincy has the "Family Tier" available already. From their website, though they don't list this tier anywhere else that I can find:

Time Warner Cable also has a new way to receive more family-friendly programming in your home with Family Choice a package of 15 Digital Cable channels. There are great channels the whole family can view together. Family Choice can help you feel more comfortable about what’s on TV and what your kids are watching. (Please note that in order to add Family Choice tier, you must subscribe to Basic Cable service.)

http://www.timewarnercable.com/cincinnati/programming/parentalcontrols.html

Channels 750 and 751 are WCET, are they not ?? Those show up in some areas of Western Ohio, but not others. I've NEVER gotten inside the city.

I seem to recall that from the bill now that you mention it. Funny thing is, I get all of those channels already but if I try and tune to "Food Network" in the 1900 range, it tells me I'm not subscribed. I assumed they just re-mapped the channels to those numbers but apparently they're duplicates.

Yes, I'm in "City of Dayton" and no, I do NOT get WKRC or WCET. I can understand the south suburbs getting those Cincy channels but not the north suburbs.... Oh well.

UGH. WHIO 7 OTA HD is not working for Without a Trace. I am getting it in HD from Cincy.

I called the newsdesk, first she said...call TW Cable, I can't help you. I told her I was using OTA...she said she'd tell the engineers upstairs...that was at 10:30, still not in HD. Glad I've got the tivo recording it from Cincy.

Pathetic!

lol .. we say the same thing - only the other direction...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7514246&&#post7514246

I called the newsdesk, first she said...call TW Cable, I can't help you.

That is pathetic ....

Anyway - Unless they're breaking in some new MCO's or something --- It looks like it may be possible WHIO-DT may be having more signifcant issues with the CBS HD feed than just neglecting to "switch" to it ... As nothing available in HD from CBS has been HD on WHIO-DT since at least last night, Not "CSI", Not "Without a Trace", not Letterman, and not Y&R currently. They've all been HD via WKRC-DT, Cincinnati ...

While that may have not been unusual say, 3-4 years ago, from what I've seen anyway it's unusual currently for them to miss so much HD ....

That is pathetic ....

Anyway - Unless they're breaking in some new MCO's or something --- It looks like it may be possible WHIO-DT may be having more signifcant issues with the CBS HD feed than just neglecting to "switch" to it ... As nothing available in HD from CBS has been HD on WHIO-DT since at least last night, Not "CSI", Not "Without a Trace", not Letterman, and not Y&R currently. They've all been HD via WKRC-DT, Cincinnati ...

While that may have not been unusual say, 3-4 years ago, from what I've seen anyway it's unusual currently for them to miss so much HD ....

I have noticed a few times in the past couple of months that WHIO has passed DD5.1 but the video has been SD 4:3 during King of Queens, (I haven't called on this because I DVR the show) but the next show comes through as HD and DD 5.1 immediately when it starts airing. Typically when something is SD on CBS such as normal golf coverage or Survivor I only get stereo, so it's not like they are passing DD 5.1 all the time. Did you notice if W/O a Trace was passing DD 5.1?

I believe it was in DD5.1.

I didnt watch the full show, I happened to come in the room and noticed it wasnt. I then told the Tivo to also record it from Cincy...and then called WHIO.

I then had to leave to do something else.

Browerjs, are you sure it wasn't the TWC box forcing it out as DD5.1? I have noticed that the 8300HD will remix a DD2.0 signal into 5.1 if you force DD5.1 on.

Browerjs, are you sure it wasn't the TWC box forcing it out as DD5.1? I have noticed that the 8300HD will remix a DD2.0 signal into 5.1 if you force DD5.1 on.

I've never seen this before except twice on WHIO during King of Queens, so I don't think it's a hardware issue.

It does look like tiggermanh was watching WOAT and seeing the same thing via OTA so this would take out TWC being the problem as well... I have a feeling it's something going on at WHIO...

Next time i see the behavior, I'll switch over to OTA and see what's happeing there.

Didn't get in until just before 8:45pm, but notice HD is up on WHIO-DT currently for "Ghost Whisperer" ....

Noticed WKEF-DT missed ABC HD for the NBA Yesterday afternoon, HD was fine on WCPO-DT cincinnati for the game.

Not sure if ABC sent the Movie last night in HD, if they did, WKEF missed HD for that as well. WCPO was running other programming rather than the network feed ... Was being too lazy to use the rotor to check Columbus ABC to see if it was coming in ....

I guess maybe all the Engineers and MCO's /etc. must be at the NAB convention .... ;) Oh well, at least WDTN-DT had the HD Hockey yesterday afternoon ...

Update - Sunday 3:30pm - Notice WKEF-DT does have Today's NBA game HD ....

It has been quite a few months since my last post when I first ventured into HD with my Sony A10. I have been using a Terk OTA antenna for about 9 months (only 3-5 miles from the antennas). It works for the most part very well. Sometimes I have to sit the antenna on top of the TV during some shows or I get drop outs - otherwise it works great.

My dilema is that I only get the OTA HD channels and the antenna sitting on the TV is not the best solution with kids running around. I was thinking about getting a Cable Card from TW and the HD package and digital phone. It would be a little less all together than I pay now in essense getting HD free from TW. I don't really have a need for the cable box (and that adds 7 bucks a month over the cable card). I can't seem to find many posts about the cable cards for Dayton lately - any thoughts? Is it worth it? Does the guide appear? Is the quality the same as the antenna? I also read that basic cable might have the HD channels on it, but I could not find them.

As always, thanks for the advice.

Squigs,

The picture quality should be the same with cable as it is OTA. The problem you'd have using cable instead of OTA for the HD locals currently is that (unless something has changed recently), TW doesn't carry WDTN-DT (NBC HD dayton) or WBDT-DT Dayton(WB HD - to be CW affiliate beginning next fall), yet. So, you'll still need to use the antenna for those. There shouldn't be any reason why you can't use both Cable+OTA for HD from the locals, however, assuming your TV has seperate RF inputs for QAM Cable+OTA, and since it has cablecard, it should of course have an internal QAM tuner ....

As for OTA If it were me I would try to improve the reception so you don't get ANY dropouts by adding a little extra coax so you can move the antenna around a little more to try to find a "sweet spot" for reception, including one that doesn't "drop out" when the kids are running around ... Near a window facing the towers, or in the attic, or who knows, even in a closet might turn out to be a good spot for the antenna ... On top of the TV usually does not turn out to be a good spot for the antenna ... also, depending upon the antenna model, there might be some room for improvment there as well without a lot of cost or effort involved ... Some of the terk antennas are not designed very well, and even the $3 Outline UHF bowtie from radio shack is better than some of the terkws -- The TerkHDTVi being an exception to that ... Also, keep in mind using an "amplfied" antenna would likely not be a good idea from your distance ..

As for the local HD channels showing up with the cable hooked up to the QAM/Cable input on your TV, they should(even if all you have is a analog cable subscription), as I believe TW transmits them "in the clear", as they should according to FCC rules(at least the way I interpet them, there may be room for different interpetations). Basically, those rules say that all signals from local broadcast signals(including the digital/HD ones) they carry should be avaialable to all cable subscribers, even on the lowest "tier" of service .... But, they don't have to provide the equipment at no extra cost to receive those "digital" signals, at least not currently ...

If your TV has an internal QAM tuner in it, you *should* be able to see those, but that's a big *should* ... For instance, I don't know, but I suppose its possible for other reasons TW may have installed filters at your cable drop to "block" certian frequenices(and the frequencies that are getting blocked may "just happen" to include where TW has the local HD signals), or there could be "incompatiabilities" between your QAM tuner+the way TW is sending PID's and or the PSIP from the stations .... In either case, TW probably *should*(again that might be a big emphasis on *should* there for "various" reasons) be able to fix it for you so you can receive the local digital/HD broadcast signals via the QAM tuner in your set without you having to "upgrade" your cable subscription to digital cable or cablecard ... I suppose it's also possible your TV could be set up so you'd need cablecard activated for the internal QAM tuner to work, but I haven't heard anything like that ...

Hope some of this helps, let us know how it goes,

I can't seem to find many posts about the cable cards for Dayton lately - any thoughts? I wouldn't believe that people simply aren't getting CableCards anymore and since no one is complaining too much, maybe TW has gotten a handle on them (??). Is it worth it? Only you can answer that. :) Does the guide appear? The guide requires 2-way communication, I believe, and that's not available with the current implementation of CableCard. You would have to use the "TV Guide" channel. Is the quality the same as the antenna? It should be. TW has stated that they do not "change" the signal that they receive from the local stations, as in changing (reducing) the resolution or reducing the bandwidth. They do do something regarding inserting some information (???). I also read that basic cable might have the HD channels on it, but I could not find them. That is correct. With any level of service from TW that includes the analog locals, either a CableCard or an HD set-top box will also get you the digital (not always HD) channels.

That is correct. With any level of service from TW that includes the analog locals, either a CableCard or an HD set-top box will also get you the digital (not always HD) channels.

You shouldn't need cablecard(which I believe TW charges extra for), or a HD STB from the cableco to receive the broadcast digital/HD channels the cableco carries(which should be transmitted "in the clear" without encryption)* if you have a QAM tuner .... The channel numbers may be different however(1450khz and others have posted the QAM channel numbers used for the various stations earlier in this thread) , and it's possible there may be some compatibilty issues with their system and some equipment ...

* - again unless something has changed that doesn't include WDTN-DT(NBC HD) or WBDT-DT(WB HD), as TW Dayton doesn't carry those currently.


They do do something regarding inserting some information (???).


I believe it has been posted here that they only change the PID's(PID=packet Identifers) - for distribution on their system. Basically I think that involves the MPEG2 program stream+so the users equipment(such as a TW supplied HD STB/cablecard, or user supplied QAM tuner) can identify different program streams properly that may be transmitted within a station's MPEG2 transport stream.

update 2:

The other thing that is "different", doesn't involve the datastream or the "bits", it's that the RF signal is modulated differently, and different "channels"(frequencies) are used to send the signal via cable - even though, keep in mind, RF bandwidth wise, Cable uses the same 6MHZ "wide" channels as OTA does, and they share many of the same frequencies as well(it's just not likely in most cases the *same* frequencies(6MHZ channel) will be used to carry any given OTA digital station on cable.

With OTA digital, the signal is modulated with 8VSB. The cableco uses QAM256 for the signal modulation, which is more efficent and allows for more data payload as you don't need as many "bits" for error correction sending a signal via a wire as you do via the airwaves for a robust, receivable transmission via the airwaves ...

Update:

I expect there may be some issues involved here involving compatiablity with some QAM tuners, perhaps concerning either PSIP issues, or involving those PID changes which in a "roundabout way" i suspect could involve the differences in bandwidth capacity for a 6MHZ RF channel via QAM256(approx 39mb/s) vs. OTA (8VSB - 19.39Mb/s.

With OTA(ATSC 8VSB) in the 6MHZ channel, obviously only one "station"(and 19.39mb/s) can fit in a 6MHZ channel, but via cable, 2 entire "complete" 19.39mb/s streams from 2 stations can fit in ONE 6MHZ channel ... And, they use this, by using 2 slots per 6MHZ QAM channel ... Hence, you've often got one station on say, QAM channel 89.1, and another station on QAM channel 89.2.

In addition to the user's equipment needing to be able to properly "identify" those two stations existing with a single "RF"(QAM in this case) channel --- Also, what happens if those stations are sending multiple program services/etc? For instance, How does the user's QAM tuner identify and sort out 3 or 4 program services for the station on QAM channel, slot 1 - such as 89.1 in this example(wheras OTA with or without PSIP you'd see them on channel x.1, x.2/etc), ? If they have the PID's and PSIP configured properly, it *should* work via QAM+PSIP and you'd get the same "channel numbers" apparent to the user that is the case OTA (via PSIP virtual channel table), but again, I would imagine there could be some compatability issues with this ....

You are correct about the QAM tuner being able to pick up the locals in digital. There's the minor issue of the odd channel numbering they'll use but I imagine it's something one can adjust to. I suppose the CableCard 1) makes it a bit more user-friendly and 2) gets add'l revenue for TW.

The "PID" is what I couldn't remember. Thank you.

I suppose the CableCard 1) makes it a bit more user-friendly and 2) gets add'l revenue for TW.


Yes --- I agree. Of course, the cablecard will only make it more user-friendly if TW(including the installers/etc) have figured out how to properly "implement" them ... As I think you said earlier, hopefully by now this situation(as has been reported earlier) has gotten better ...



You are correct about the QAM tuner being able to pick up the locals in digital. There's the minor issue of the odd channel numbering they'll use but I imagine it's something one can adjust to.


We haven't talked much about it here, but in Cincinnati thread in the past we covered it in quite a bit of detail, as there were some folks with certian models of TV's with built in QAM tuners(thus certian "models" of QAM tuner) which weren't able to decode some stations which were available via TW Cincinnati via QAM that other folks with other models of QAM tuners were able to see just fine ... If I recall correctly, in some cases, it was the stations being sent on the 2nd QAM channel slot(out of 2 slots per channel) which were causing trouble, although, in other cases those folks having problems could see other stations on "2nd "slot" QAM channels just fine via PSIP Virtual channel remapping info sent by the stations ...

And, keep in mind we are talking about several different things involving the "odd channel numbering" ...

#1). It is *only* the TW supplied STB's(and maybe the cablecard's?) which "use" the channel numbering such as 722, 745/etc .... These are probably the "oddest" channel numbers, as they are not channel numbers that "actually" correspond to the "actual channels" that correspond to a given range of frequencies that is actually used to "transmit" the signal via cable, nor do they correspond to the PSIP virtual channel #'s used by stations, OTA receivers, and (hopefully) in many cases QAM tuners ....

#2). The actual channel numbers that do correspond to actual "frequencies" usedto transmit the signal via cable ARE often seen and used by user-supplied "QAM tuners". They are "seen" by the TW supplied HD boxes as well, they just don't show up that way to the user. Using my previous example, for instance, 89.1 could be one station/one program stream(such as a HD service), and 89.2 could be a different station alltogheter or a different program stream(such as a SD multicast service from the same station).

#3). The PSIP virtual "remapped" channel #'s sent by the station(or modified by the cableco, but I don't think that is happening in this case) are often used by QAM tuners, and is what(hopefully) "shows up" to the user with a QAM tuner that supports PSIP ... These are the same Channel #'s you(usually) see on your OTA HD receiver via OTA ... For instance, WKEF-DT actually transmits OTA on channel 51, and I expect uses a PID at an address at, or above Hex 30(the at or above hex30 thing is a FCC requirement which went into effect sometime ago involving international "coordination" issues) , and an MPEG2 Program Number of "3", so the MPEG2 program service for WKEF-HD shows up as 51.3 on a OTA receiver not using PSIP ... However, on a OTA receiver using the PSIP virtual channels(as most do), what is "actually" 51.3 shows up instead as 22.1 via PSIP VCT info(virtual channel table) sent by the station.

If the PID's and PSIP are "properly implemented" via the cable system, and PSIP is properly implemented by the QAM tuner ... Since I believe TW is just "passing through" the stations PSIP stream along with everything else(except the changed PID's) WKEF-DT should also show up as "22.1" on a QAM tuner that supports PSIP.

Note that stations *can* also send a *seperate* PSIP VCT(virtual channel table) to cable that is different from the one they send OTA - In the PSIP specs, the abvreviation is "TVCT" for the "broadcast" virtual channel table, and "CVCT" for "Cable" virtual channel table .. I don't know if any stations are doing this yet, but I don't expect they are. I think that is probably mainly so if they want, the stations could be made to "show up" on a different channel via cable vs. OTA -- such as to "correspond" to the the cable channel that analog cable viewers are used to seeing them on.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In any case -- whatever is "going on" that in some cases is making it difficult for folks with QAM tuners(w/o cablecard) to "tune in" to some stations, hopefully the cableco's and manufacturers(and perhaps broadcaster's in some cases involving their PSIP stream) can soon get it worked out/figured out.

I think the "idea" for this for the future is, you can have a Set with QAM tuner in it, and it will be "digital cable ready", just like analog cable ready sets are now ... No extra "box" or cablecard/etc. required to receive the "basic" cable channels, including all the digital(including HD) broadcast signals carried on the local cableco .....

Well, I re-ran my auto detect on the Sony A10 TV and it popped up digital channels from the basic cable. I now can see like 6 PBS stations. I don't see the local stations like CBS or ABC though. I might search this forum to see if anyone has posted the channel numbers for those. So, the only thing the getting the cable card would give me is Discovery and ESPN HD (and the inHD channels).

Update: I figured out all the stations accept NBC and WB (which you mentioned above are not with TW - kind of sucks) - wish I new these all were there a while ago. If NBC and WB would work then there would be no need for an antenna!

I've got a cablecard with TWC. Had a few problems with it -- but with an easy firmware upgrade on my tv and a couple of service calls from TWC, everything seems to work well now.

TWC does not like cablecards. When problems first arose, TWC and the TV manufacturers pointed the blame at each other. It sounds many of the bugs have been worked out now.

TWC thinks its future revenue will be based on pay per view and other interactive services. The current generation of cablecards don't allow PPV, which is fine with me.

Oh, BTW, cablecard is absolutely essential for me. With 5c content encryption enabled, the only easy way I can record (archive) 5c HD programming (INHDs, ESPNHD, DiscoveryHD, HBOHD, etc.) is with my toshiba tv, cablecard, Mitsubishi DVHS deck (which is now at an increadibly low price) and a firewire cable. TWC has still not fixed firewire on the SA8300HD. The SA3250 has firewire enabled, but it is not easy to schedule a recording with it.

On the question of "whether or not cablecard is worth it", In Hall and I's responses above I think we were referring to Squigs specific questions, and for folks with a QAM tuner with a cablecard slot who just wanted the digital/HD from broadcast stations carried on cable, even if they are only subscribing to analog cable ...

I think you'd need cablecard as well if you didn't want to use a TW supplied STB, and you wanted to use your "digital cable ready" set with cablecard and want to subscribe to their "digital cable" tiers ....

dc10forlife,

A question -- do they charge you a "one time" fee(installation fee/etc) for cablecard, or is there a monthly charge? I don't quite understand why it would be a monthly charge, as there are not hardware costs involved as is the case with a STB ....

Thanks,

There is a monthly rental charge for cablecards -- $1.75 or $1.95, can't remember which. There is no installation fee. I have not heard of being able to purchase a cablecard outright.

I think the 2nd gen cable cards are supposed to address the issues of ppv and guides.. I also think the upcoming series 3 tivo will be cable card 2.0.. but I am not sure about that.. but according to http://www.tivolovers.com/252572.html - it will support 2.0 .. now we just need the damn thing to be released!!

Forgot to mention earlier ... Notice WRGT-DT is showing up again via PSIP at both 45.1 and 27.5 .... I think 27.5 came back again last thursday or Friday night ... I'd bet something may be going on PSIP wise with the Fox splicer, as(I think from PSIP EIT), an "East" label is showing up for 27.5 (such as in East coast feed?) ...

Anyway, the rescheduled NASCAR HD race looks good on WRGT-DT this afternoon, either on 45.1 or 27.5 -- I certianly apprecate it, and hope they can continue to run the "monday" races Fox has in HD ;)

--------------------------------------

Update 5/2 11:20am - Notice WRGT-DT is back to normal currently PSIP virtual channel wise, 45.1 is there as normal, 27.5 is gone ....

I think the 2nd gen cable cards are supposed to address the issues of ppv and guides.. That's the *plan*, as I've read. Question is, are current TVs with CableCard slots "compatible" ??

cablecard 2.0 is backward compatible.. however, if you have a cablecard 1.0 slot - then you are out of luck as far as guides / vod go from what I have read.. perhaps if your tv has a rs232 port, then it may be possible for a software upgrade.. but thats just a guess.

jim

Anyone having any issues with their SA8300HD, since the new firmware update sometime last week? I've had to reboot my box 2-3 times in the past couple of days which I had rarely had to do in the past. When tuning to a certain (what seems random) channel, everything on the box goes non responsive, for a long period of time, eventhough commands register they are not followed through for at least 45-60sec.

Having very similar problems here..... I've seen numerous lockups, requiring a hard restart, and the box has rebooted on it's own a few times. I've e-mailed my contact at TW-WOH this morning. I'm curious what he says.

I haven't run into anything like that, but I don't like the changes they made to the menu system. I also don't like the fact that I have to tell the box twice I want to delete a program I have DVRed.

Ok, I just finished setting up my new JVC HD-61Z786... and now I am finally researching HD cable in the Beavercreek Area. (area code 45431) I am a huuuge newbie to HD cable and components etc.. but I read on here every day and am learning more and more.
- I currently have no cable at all (just OTA with a reallly crummy antenna someone gave me free)

- What do I need to buy for the best picture? Time warner? Dish? DO I have any other options that are worth it?

- what do I need in the way of updates to my tvs firmware? (read about that in earlier posts)

- what do I need in the way of components?

I am looking for the best picture I can get (or what you guys would buy) I have a roommate so we will be splitting the costs :-)
Again, I am a newbie and will continue to read this thread as well as others... but you guys are pros in the Dayton area, so any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance guys! AVSForum rocks!

Edit: *Subscribed to thread*

I didn't delete at least (2) shows that I thought I'd deleted over the weekend. I'm so in the habit of picking "Erase...." then "A" to confirm that I must have been hitting "Exit" on the 2nd delete/confirm prompt. It's not like it's a "do you really, really want to delete this show" prompt either. It's just a repeat of the first.

I haven't run into anything like that, but I don't like the changes they made to the menu system. What changes ?? For such a big jump in version, I'm *seeing* very little user-interface differences.

The one I remember off the top of the head is when you are in the guide, switch to the "search" mode, they changed the way the search works. You start in the left hand menu system instead of in the "middle", where you can just press the right arrow to go to the list of shows.

Hmm, I guess this thread doesn't take well to newbies.... any help on my above post?

Patience "Mr. GQ" somebody will eventially come and read the thread and answer your question....

To get the best picture, just get a better "less crummy" antenna. It appears that your location has easy access to the big 4 with OTA reception and OTA will give you the best PQ.

Your TV appears to have a built-in ATSC tuner so you don't need a seperate over-the-air receiver. Try your "crummy" antenna first though. Hook it up to the antenna input, locate the antenna near a window facing the Dayton towers (probably South-Southwest or so from you), and do a *scan* for digital channels. See what you pick up and what strength you get on them. I think this answers your components question too. You need none (outside of what you've already got).

That's certainly the lowest-cost option and even if you have to buy a "better" antenna, it will be nothing compared to a TW, Dish, or Directv monthly bill.

Firmware updates for your TV ?? Don't bother for now...

I currently have no cable at all (just OTA with a reallly crummy antenna someone gave me free) ....

..... - what do I need in the way of components?


I agree with terry :

#1) Most folks probably only visit AVSforum once a day, or less - an hour or so really doesn't give enough time for responses ...

#2) Chances are very good with a little work you should be able to receive excellent HD OTA reception from the "Big 4" from Dayton, as well as WB HD and PBS HD(and WPTD-DT's Multicast SD services) .... With a decent outdoor antenna setup+rotor, Both Cincinnati+Columbus stations are a very real possibility from Beavercreek as well(especially Cincinnati) ...

Keep in mind, right now your ONLY option for NBC HD+WB HB from the Dayton affiliates is OTA. TW doesn't currently carry the digital/HD signals from WDTN-DT(NBC HD) or WBDT-DT(WB HD affiliate, to be CW affiliate beginning next fall). That could change "someday", but I wouldn't place any bets on it happening before analog shut off(feb 17,2009). Also, It will probably be quite sometime before either E*(Dish network) or D*(direcTV) offer HD locals LiL(via the dish) in Dayton. Those who are using sat currently are using OTA for reception of the locals.

Given that I looked up your JVC set, and see it has a internal ATSC tuner -- assuming that by "crummy antenna" you are saying your having problems with your OTA reception -- First thing I would suggest you may want to do is to work on improving your OTA reception, hopefully to the point you can achieve "dropout free" perfect reception from at least all 6 Dayton HD stations, Including WBDT-DT+WDTN-DT. This might involve getting a little extra coax+moving the antenna around to find a "sweet spot" for reception(from indoors near a window facing the towers is often a good spot, outdoors is usually a very good idea), or might involve a different antenna model/etc.

- What do I need to buy for the best picture? Time warner? Dish? DO I have any other options that are worth it?


Generally speaking, the picture quality you see OTA from the Dayton HD stations is what you'll get PQ wise with any other option as well. For instance the HD locals TW do carry, for example, it should be exactly the same, whether you are getting it OTA or via TW.

If you are getting reception related "dropouts" or pixelization -- That is purely a reception related issue which you should be able to improve(hopefully easily) ---- The signal is not good enough so all the "bits" can be properly decoded, it's not a "picture quality" issue related to the method of delivery/provider/etc.

As for picture quality from some of the HD "cablenets" (ESPNHD,etc) - This can vary depending upon provider because some providers are using a higher MPEG2 compression ratio, or changing("downrezzing say from 1920x1080i to 1280x1080i) the resolution. See the "HDlite" threads in Programming area for more info.

Do keep in mind when reading about "picture quality" from various providers or local broadcasters, it's often a very subjective thing and you'll really probably have to see it for yourself to make any real "decisions" upon which cable or sat provider is best .... And, right now anyway -- You might also feel the available programming packages available(TW vs. E* or D*/etc) via any given provider of at least as much importance as PQ ..


- what do I need in the way of components?


In addition to the internal ATSC tuner, Your set also has a QAM(for digital cable) tuner as well as a cablecard slot. Which means, You can(should anyway) be able to receive the HD Dayton Locals TW Does carry(WHIO-DT/CBS HD, WRGT-DT/FOX HD, WKEF-DT/NBC HD, WPTD-DT/PBS HD+various SD Multicast services) with the QAM tuner and any level of cable subscription, even "lifeline" analog cable.

Your set also has a cablecard slot. Which means, with a TW-supplied(and installed) cablecard+a subscription to their "digital" service tiers, you would be able to use the cablecard for digital/HD channels that are "encrypted" by the cableco. I assume this would include(depending upon what tiers/premium movie packages/etcyou subscribe to)channels such as ESPNHD, HBOHD/etc.

The other option for digital cable is a TW supplied STB (including DVR's).

For satellite, (D* or E*) You need a HD Receiver/STB(They have DVR models as well) for that particular service. These HD receivers receive HD(and SD services) from the satellite, and also have OTA ATSC tuners in them(just like is in your set) so you can receive the locals.


what do I need in the way of updates to my tvs firmware? (read about that in earlier posts)


I don't know that you would necessarily need any firmware updates, in any case -- It's difficult to say, but if it turns out you do need an update from your current firmware version, The cablecard(or QAM w/o cablecard) options mentioned above may be more likely to require an update than any other "option" or feature ..... Perhaps someone that has your particular set can provide more info.


Again, I am a newbie and will continue to read this thread as well as others...


Keep reading, you should be able to find lots of relevant comments concerning your questions in earlier posts here, and in other threads as well ...


AVSForum rocks!


Welcome to AVSforum, and the Dayton thread ....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update: oops! Well, just noticed I posted at the same time as Hall, and much of the same info as well ... Oh, well, rather than edit the duplicate info, I think I'll just leave it and eat Lunch instead :)

Ok, I just finished setting up my new JVC HD-61Z786... and now I am finally researching HD cable in the Beavercreek Area. (area code 45431) I am a huuuge newbie to HD cable and components etc.. but I read on here every day and am learning more and more.
- I currently have no cable at all (just OTA with a reallly crummy antenna someone gave me free)

- What do I need to buy for the best picture? Time warner? Dish? DO I have any other options that are worth it?

- what do I need in the way of updates to my tvs firmware? (read about that in earlier posts)

- what do I need in the way of components?

I am looking for the best picture I can get (or what you guys would buy) I have a roommate so we will be splitting the costs :-)
Again, I am a newbie and will continue to read this thread as well as others... but you guys are pros in the Dayton area, so any help is appreciated! Thanks in advance guys! AVSForum rocks!

Edit: *Subscribed to thread*

Since you are a bit impatient, I will give you my opinions (all subjective).

Best picture: OTA. Time Warner looks just as good for the local OTA HD, however.
Best quality among satellite/cable providers: Time Warner (no UniversalHD, ESPN2HD, however).
Most HD channels/Best HD Channel lineup: Dish Network (has UniversalHD, ESPN2HD, VoomHD)
TV Firmware: You probably won't have to worry about the firmware unless you are using cablecard.

Components:
Get a receiver with at least Dolby Digital 5.1 compatibility.
HD-DVD is the best out for movies right now, Blu-ray comes out soon, or you could just get a DVD player that upgrades the output to HD (although it isn't true HD).

Having very similar problems here..... I've seen numerous lockups, requiring a hard restart, and the box has rebooted on it's own a few times. I've e-mailed my contact at TW-WOH this morning. I'm curious what he says.

Let us know his reply...

Patience "Mr. GQ" somebody will eventially come and read the thread and answer your question....

To get the best picture, just get a better "less crummy" antenna. It appears that your location has easy access to the big 4 with OTA reception and OTA will give you the best PQ.

Any suggestions for an antenna? Anyone?

Your TV appears to have a built-in ATSC tuner so you don't need a seperate over-the-air receiver. Try your "crummy" antenna first though. Hook it up to the antenna input, locate the antenna near a window facing the Dayton towers (probably South-Southwest or so from you), and do a *scan* for digital channels. See what you pick up and what strength you get on them. I think this answers your components question too. You need none (outside of what you've already got).

That's certainly the lowest-cost option and even if you have to buy a "better" antenna, it will be nothing compared to a TW, Dish, or Directv monthly bill.

Firmware updates for your TV ?? Don't bother for now...
- I tried scanning channels with just my built in ATSC tuner, and that sucked (no channels AT ALL...

-then I tried it with my antenna thinking that would be better.. and I actually received some stations but really fuzzy.. channel 26 was ok.. still very fuzzy. Both ways I tried moving the antenna every directions slowly... didnt help much.

I agree with terry :

#1) Most folks probably only visit AVSforum once a day, or less - an hour or so really doesn't give enough time for responses ...
:)
Sorry, I am so anxious after waiting 6 months to buy a tv! I apologize...


.... With a decent outdoor antenna setup+rotor


What would you suggest? And what if I can't put the antenna outside my apartment anywhere (luxury apartment, they won't let me) and what is a rotor?

-Also, because I can't have a Dish at my apartment anywhere, I think that limits me to just D* doesn't it?

Since you are a bit impatient, I will give you my opinions (all subjective).

Sorry yet again, just so anxious to try this after waiting 6 months and listening to everyone's excitement over their own big screens!

Get a receiver with at least Dolby Digital 5.1 compatibility
On my list of things to buy next haha

HD-DVD is the best out for movies right now,or you could just get a DVD player that upgrades the output to HD (although it isn't true HD).
What DVD player would you suggest?

Thanks for all the great info already. Its priceless. By the way, computers are my thing (not TVs)if anyone needs computer help/info send me a PM :-)

There's one or two people in Xenia and Beavercreek using the Silver Sensor type antennas. I bought one like this, http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Terk-Indoor-HDTV-Antenna-HDTVi-/sem/rpsm/oid/91092/catOid/-15607/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do, off of eBay for under $20. I wouldn't pay $40 for one of them.... There's a non-amplified and an amplified version. At your distance, you should not need the amplified one.

This antenna from Radio Shack, http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&parentPage=family, is very popular around this site. Being popular around here means it's *good* (or in many, many cases it is). A few months ago, almost no local stores had them in stock though.

As far as satellite goes, Dish and Directv are more or less the same. Without getting into the "not allowed" part, if Dish isn't allowed, Directv won't be either.

By the way, what's a "luxury apartment" ??

Any suggestions for an antenna? Anyone?


First, I'd recommend you check out the following thread in AVSform hardware area, the answers to many of your "questions"(probably including some you haven't asked yet) can be found there :

OTA Digital TV reception FAQ:New To OTA? Start here! (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611957)

Also, don't forget to check out www.antennaweb.org

What sort of antenna(make/model or perhaps a screenshot) are you using currently? That might tell us something+give us more to go on concerning why you're having reception problems.

Some other thoughts that may be of use :

#1). Is the antenna an amplified model? Note : If it is amplified and the amplifer is not hooked up or is not working properly that may be one possible explanation for your poor reception. The signal will be attenuated greatly with most indoor amplified antenna models if the amplifier circuits(IC's/Transistors mainly) are unpowered, much more attenuation than would be present with use of a "non-amplified" antenna .....

#2). How is the antenna hooked up? - In other words, what exactly is between the antenna and the receiver - coax/matching transformer/etc/etc. Please be as detailed as possible -- If we know what antenna you're using and how you've got it hooked up, we may be able to spot potential problems ..... Also, when you have problems, often a good idea look for simple solutions first -- such as poor/bad connections, making sure antenna is properly "hooked up", moving the antenna near a west facing window in this case, making sure you have your TV's menu choices set up to scan for "off air" signals rather than cable(including for your ATSC tuner)/etc/etc/etc .....

Anyhow, the antennas Hall mentioned --- RS DBT and Silver sensor(or HDTVi) are 2 of the best UHF "indoor" type antennas currently available - TerkHDTVi is very similar to Silver sensor(which is basically a UHF log periodic antenna), but also adds VHF "rabbit ears". All of the Dayton digital/HD stations transmit on UHF.


and I actually received some stations but really fuzzy.. channel 26 was ok.. still very fuzzy.


Those are analog stations being picked up by your TV's internal NTSC(analog) tuner. Digital/HD stations are never "fuzzy", you either receive them perfectly, or you don't get them at all, or you get them "almost perfectly" with occasional "dropouts" or pixelization.

Since you are a "computer guy" -- maybe this will help --- Digital/HD(OTA) stations send a MPEG2 transport stream, and MPEG2 is used for the video compression codec ... Basically --- it's a datastream, just like the one that "comes off" a DVD, or can be downloaded via internet, and, our receivers are "computers" for the most part .... The main difference is how it's delivered. With OTA, The RF (RF is short for "radio frequency") signal that *carries* the MPEG2 Transport stream is modulated with 8VSB (trellis-coded 8-level vestigal sideband). If you are not receiving that signal "well enough", then you can't decode the MPEG2 stream ...

For some reason, by the time they get to your TV's tuner, obviously the signals are very weak for some reason(with analog "snow"=weak signal, Ghosts=multipath). Some possible reasons(there may be more) this may be occuring which I can think of off top of my head might be :

Bad connections or an impedance mismatch due to a faulty balun(matching transformer), using an "amplified" antenna without an amplifier, and/or antenna with a band seperator/combiner which for some reason is only outputting(much) signal on only VHF(not UHF) to the RF input on your TV(checking your VHF channel 2+7 analog reception will help you figure that one out) -- Or, signal attenuation issues between your receive antenna+the transmit antenna from nearby terrain(or other buildings) or the materials your building is constructed out of--- for example, trying to receive a signal through a thick concrete wall or brick wall or from a basement wouldn't be a good idea.


Both ways I tried moving the antenna every directions slowly... didnt help much.


Just "reaiming" or reorientating antenna may not be enough. You may have to get a bit of extra feedline so you can move the antenna around to try to find a better spot - as mentioned earlier, such as near a west facing window(facing the Dayton towers). In addition to such potential issues as terrain blockage(outdoors or indoors), Many factors can effect reception from indoors - besides the additional signal attenuation issues you'll have with indoor antenna, Multipath(seen as "ghosts" on analog signals) reflections are often more of a problem from indoors as well.

Especially indoors, and especially with the short UHF wavelengths involved there can be "dead spots" and "hot spots" for signals everywhere. Even moving the antenna a few feet left or right or up or down can *sometimes* make a huge difference. These "hot and cold spots" are often "Frequency"(channel) specific, and sometimes can also be related to the transmitting antenna pattern/height/etc .... The latter shouldn't be too much of a consideration here, since all the Dayton HD stations transmit from the same "antenna farm" (a few miles or so SW of Downtown Dayton, on the hill between I-75+RT 4), and from roughly equivilent height, and the directional transmitting antennas used in some cases should actually "favor" your direction ......

Another thing of importance here -- Hopefully your TV has some sort of "signal meter", and also has some sort of way you can manually "tune" to a Station's RF channel while looking at the meter so you can adjust the antenna for optimum reception on occasions when a "auto scan" didn't pick up "enough" sign of a signal.

For instance --- WBDT 26 analog (WB Dayton) Transmits on RF channel 26 ... WBDT-DT (WB HD Dayton) Transmits on RF channel 18, but *remaps* to virtual channel 26.1 .. HOWEVER ... Your receiver can't "remap" it(or find the station via a "auto channel scan") unless a sufficent enough signal (~16db S/N) is present so that it can receive+decode the PSIP(contains channel remapping, EPG info/etc) info from the station --- In which case You probably need to "adjust the antenna" first, and in order to do that, you need some sort of indication of signal ... more info on how that works, and where to go to find out the RF channel #(actual channel used for transmission) in the OTA FAQ in Hardware area.


And what if I can't put the antenna outside my apartment anywhere (luxury apartment, they won't let me) and what is a rotor?


Just for "completeness" and FYI --- While they can restrict you from drilling holes in exterior walls/etc, and can restrict you from putting an antenna or dish in a "common area" (such as on the roof) ---- assuming you don't have to drill a hole for the feedline ---- according to federal Law(FCC rules), other than for valid safety reasons, they can't restrict you from putting antenna in an exclusive use area, such as on a balcony(which of course wouldn't probably help you out if the Balcony is facing East). See here :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

It is really too bad many apartment buildings are only wired for cable these days, and don't have a MATV/SMATV (antenna for OTA+Dish antennas for satellite) system set up "on the roof" to allow residents some sort of choice ....


[update/addition below]


what is a rotor?


Rotor allows you to "rotate" a directional antenna(from indoors with the push of a button) so the antenna is pointed towards the station's towers you wish to receive(which aren't allways in the same direction if you say want to receive both Cincinnati+Dayton stations) ... The more signal gain an antenna has on any particular frequency, the more directivity it has ... More gain+more directivity is often a good idea ... More gain=more signal, more directivity=more "rejection" of multipath reflections(uncorrectable multipath is seen as extra noise(interference) by a digital OTA receiver, and as ghosts on analog ....

For a pic+more info see here :

http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/TVS/Rotators.htm

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyhow, hope some of this helps, let us know how it goes ....

By the way, what's a "luxury apartment" ??

Especially in Beavercreek :) I think of luxury apartments as those you'd get in the big cities of Chicago, New York, or LA, the ones that take up the entire floor themselves...

Anyways, so my post stays on topic, I have the Silver Sensor and am in Bcreek Township and get all Dayton locals with it sitting on top of my TV pointing at an interior wall...

Especially in Beavercreek :) I think of luxury apartments as those you'd get in the big cities of Chicago, New York, or LA, the ones that take up the entire floor themselves...

Anyways, so my post stays on topic, I have the Silver Sensor and am in Bcreek Township and get all Dayton locals with it sitting on top of my TV pointing at an interior wall...


I will answer the easy question first.. "luxury" apartment in beavercreek is Ashton Brooke... at least thats what they call it. They have a front gate/id system, nice workout room with plasma, business room, bar/party room, pool table, sauna room, tanning bed, heated pool. etc etc... not bragging... just listing options at their clubhouse. Its the nicest place I have lived so far.... still sucks throwing my money away to an apartment :-( So my apartment doesn't even begin to compare to luxury in New York etc.. but compared to apartments in the Dayton area its fairly nice.

I checked last night (I only post at work) and I have a Jensen antenna: exactly like this: http://www.zalmar.com/detail-Video-Jensen-TV611.htm (sorry for some reason my hyperlink button doesn't work..you will have to copy/paste)

Does this antenna suck?

Now on to answering/responding to Nightwatch...

I checked last night (I only post at work) and I have a Jensen antenna: exactly like this: http://www.zalmar.com/detail-Video-Jensen-TV611.htm
Does this antenna suck?

Personally I wouldn't see why this antenna wouldn't work for you. You just may need to find the so called "sweet spot" to place the antenna.

I have the Silver Sensor and am in Bcreek Township and get all Dayton locals with it sitting on top of my TV pointing at an interior wall...

"get" them all.. as in they look pretty damn good?

Personally I wouldn't see why this antenna wouldn't work for you. You just may need to find the so called "sweet spot" to place the antenna.
its so hard to do that with a pair of huge rabbit ears... it looks really white-trash to me. No offense to anyone that has it because I know you gotta do, what you gotta do for picture quality... but, there isn't any other way? I guess I would rather make sure I exhausted all my other options before sticking rabbit ears at a random place in my apartment.. not to mention the 2 wires that trail alll the way back to the VHF port on the back of my tv.... what do you guys do about those?

Mr. GQ,
Since all the digital locals in Dayton are UHF, you can keep the rabbit ears down and disconnected and only worry about the UHF loop.

its so hard to do that with a pair of huge rabbit ears... it looks really white-trash to me. No offense to anyone that has it because I know you gotta do, what you gotta do for picture quality... but, there isn't any other way? Maybe just getting HD from Time Warner will be the best option for you.

Mr. GQ,
Since all the digital locals in Dayton are UHF, you can keep the rabbit ears down and disconnected and only worry about the UHF loop.
oh....wasn't aware of that... you would have had a good laugh yesterday then as I danced around my apartment with rabbit ears all the way out looking like a damn alien... waving them both around in every direction as my girlfriend tried to tell me if the picture was better or worse haha

"get" them all.. as in they look pretty damn good?

I think you are a little confused as to the differences between digital broadcast television (antenna hooked up through your ATSC tuner) and analog broadcast television (antenna hooked up through your NTSC tuner).

In laymans terms...
When you have your antenna hooked up through the ATSC tuner, you will either get a picture or you won't, the quality of the picture is the same no matter how strong the signal coming into your antenna is. You may get dropouts from time to time, if the signal can't be acquired, but you won't get "snow" like you could with analog (NTSC). To get rid of the dropouts, you'll need a better sweet spot, or an amplifier with the antenna, but considering you are in Ashton Brooke, you should be able to find a sweet spot fairly easy with a little indoor antenna hooked up to your ATSC input.

... as I danced around my apartment ... as my girlfriend tried to tell me if the picture was better or worse

Dancing is probably not a good idea. I don't know how the JVC tuner works, but you may have to rescan all of your OTA channels every time you move the antenna to see if your placement has allowed you to "lock in" on any new channels. As it has been said about 100 times now, snow is not an issue here with ATSC transmission, you either get the picture or you don't (or you get alot of dropouts).

(And since I don't think this has been stressed yet..)
You're looking for the following channels:
16.2
45.1
22.1
2.1
7.1
26.1

So, if you're missing the ".1" then you're not looking at a digital channel.

I think you are a little confused as to the differences between digital broadcast television (antenna hooked up through your ATSC tuner) and analog broadcast television (antenna hooked up through your NTSC tuner).

In laymans terms...
When you have your antenna hooked up through the ATSC tuner, you will either get a picture or you won't, the quality of the picture is the same no matter how strong the signal coming into your antenna is. You may get dropouts from time to time, if the signal can't be acquired, but you won't get "snow" like you could with analog (NTSC). To get rid of the dropouts, you'll need a better sweet spot, or an amplifier with the antenna, but considering you are in Ashton Brooke, you should be able to find a sweet spot fairly easy with a little indoor antenna hooked up to your ATSC input.
hmm I wouldn't doubt I am confused! Ok, I put the antenna on the port labeled 75 Ohms VHF/UHF... this is the NTSC Tuner correct?

Where is the ATSC tuner? Do I use the same antenna for that? (obviously not) It doesn't look like there is another input for the antenna for an ATSC tuner on the back that I can see? *definately confused* I wil read your link in a minute about OTA stuff also.

So yes, I think what I am talking about.. and what you are helping me with are probably different things.. sorry for the confusion. And thanks for not getting frustrated with me!

hmm I wouldn't doubt I am confused! Ok, I put the antenna on the port labeled 75 Ohms VHF/UHF... this is the NTSC Tuner correct?

Where is the ATSC tuner? Do I use the same antenna for that? (obviously not) It doesn't look like there is another input for the antenna for an ATSC tuner on the back that I can see? *definately confused* I wil read your link in a minute about OTA stuff also. The owner's manual for your TV will probably give you the best answers for this kind of stuff. Of course, no one reads those.....

You don't hook the antenna to the "tuner". Just connect it to the jack labeled "ANT In" or similar. And yes, you DO use the same antenna. Some antennas are UHF, others are VHF, and others are both. Your tuner, be it the ATSC or the NTSC, will sort that out for you. If you connect a UHF-only antenna, you (probably) won't pick up any VHF signals. As already mentioned, all of the Dayton digital channels are UHF anyway.

When you do get this working, don't get your hopes up for anything too impressive until after 8pm. I mean, Dr Phil, the 6pm news, or Wheel of Fortune just won't do anything for most people.... Whether or not you watch American Idol, it's a pretty good show for HD. It's very colorful, bright, and so on. Try it... Just to be sure of the difference between HD and analog, flip between the two while you're watching a show. Most people are blown away by the difference.

The owner's manual for your TV will probably give you the best answers for this kind of stuff. Of course, no one reads those.....

You don't hook the antenna to the "tuner". Just connect it to the jack labeled "ANT In" or similar. And yes, you DO use the same antenna. Some antennas are UHF, others are VHF, and others are both. Your tuner, be it the ATSC or the NTSC, will sort that out for you. If you connect a UHF-only antenna, you (probably) won't pick up any VHF signals. As already mentioned, all of the Dayton digital channels are UHF anyway.

When you do get this working, don't get your hopes up for anything too impressive until after 8pm. I mean, Dr Phil, the 6pm news, or Wheel of Fortune just won't do anything for most people.... Whether or not you watch American Idol, it's a pretty good show for HD. It's very colorful, bright, and so on. Try it... Just to be sure of the difference between HD and analog, flip between the two while you're watching a show. Most people are blown away by the difference.
ok, I will do that... let me do some more reading aruond here so I don't ask too many more stupid questions.. appreciate everything you all have said and suggested so far though!

you are correct g - the 75 ohm is ntsc.. to the right and up is a coax input that says "ATSC / Digital Cable In" - put your antenna in there and see what happens.

jim


hmm I wouldn't doubt I am confused! Ok, I put the antenna on the port labeled 75 Ohms VHF/UHF... this is the NTSC Tuner correct?

Where is the ATSC tuner? Do I use the same antenna for that? (obviously not) It doesn't look like there is another input for the antenna for an ATSC tuner on the back that I can see? *definately confused* I wil read your link in a minute about OTA stuff also.

So yes, I think what I am talking about.. and what you are helping me with are probably different things.. sorry for the confusion. And thanks for not getting frustrated with me!

here is something interesting I found in gq's jvc owners manual..
"Note for inserting Cable Card:
• When you are watching a digital program, and if a weather or government emergency occurs,
the following may occur automatically regardless of what channel you were watching: the
channel may change, the screen will disappear or important text will appear on the screen.
The information is transmitted from EAS (Emergency Alert System), Firmware Upgrade of
Cable Card or compulsory HTML."

I must apologize .... and so should JVC .... I downloaded the 36242.pdf (User's Guide for his TV model) and unless I skipped it, I see nothing about how to hook up an antenna and only brief explanations on scanning for channels after hooking up an antenna.

I must apologize .... and so should JVC .... I downloaded the 36242.pdf (User's Guide for his TV model) and unless I skipped it, I see nothing about how to hook up an antenna and only brief explanations on scanning for channels after hooking up an antenna.

Thanks, yea I jsut read the 105 page manual yesterday and today... hoping it would clear some of my stupid question up... to no avail... you guys and avs forum have already been 100 times more resourceful than that damn thing.

Ok, according to the manual there is a "ATSC/Digital Cable" port right next to the cable card slot and the HDMI port.

Page 18 speaks to how to connect to an antenna. Looks like you need to use the included EXTERNAL splitter to feed the "ATSC/Digital Cable" and "75ohm VHF/UHF" ports.

Page 40 speaks to the "Auto Tuner" setup.

http://books.jvcservice.com/download/363042281/36242.pdf

And yes, you DO use the same antenna. Some antennas are UHF, others are VHF, and others are both. Your tuner, be it the ATSC or the NTSC, will sort that out for you.


From the picture in the Link Mr. GQ provided, It looks like there are probably seperate leads(300 ohm twinlead) coming out of the antenna for VHF and UHF. Many antennas of that sort(inexpensive VHF rabbit ears+UHF loop) have seperate VHF/UHF leads(usually 300 ohm twinlead) coming out of the antenna, and many older TV's and VCR's have seperate VHF/UHF terminals. I've even seen such antennas that don't have the sepreate leads to the VHF/UHF antennas "labeled" and if you lost the "manual", you'd just have to hook each one up to your set and see which one works best for VHF and which one works best for UHF reception ...

If you want to hook one of those(and use it for both VHF/UHF) to a TV with a 75 Ohm VHF/UHF(or "ATSC, or "ant in"/etc) RF input, you need to use a VHF/UHF combiner, as well as of course a 300-->75Ohm matching transformer(balun). The combiner(with seperate VHF/UHF inputs(screws) and the balun can often be one single "part", but, it probably usually isn't included with the antenna -- Mr. GQ's Link on the Jensen TV-611 just says "transformer included" - I assume they are talking about300ohm-->>75 ohm matching transformer and not a VHF/UHF combiner?

Some of those antennas do have coax(75 ohm) for the VHF, and 300 Ohm twinlead for the UHF, but most have 300 ohm twinlead for both VHF/UHF. If there is only one lead coming out of an antenna with "seperate" VHF/UHF "sections"(such as VHF rabbit ears+UHF loop), that means the VHF/UHF combiner is inside the antenna, in which case your above statement would be correct.

If however, there are seperate VHF/UHF leads coming out of the antenna, which appears to be the case from the pic --- In Mr. GQ's case, for the dayton digital/HD stations, he'd just need the UHF antenna, and therefore would only need to hook up the lead for the "UHF Loop" coming out of the antenna to the ATSC input on his TV. Since In the pic, it looks like twinlead coming out of the antenna, he'd need a balun with the appropriate connections as well.

Keep in mind that VHF "rabbit ears", or a "UHF loop" have little to no signal "gain" to speak of, and anything between the antenna+the TV will cause some signal loss - including the balun and VHF/UHF combiner - probably somewhere in the range of 2~4db of signal loss(maybe more with cheap combiner, especially if there is impedance mismatches involved), which probably varies depending upon frequency(channel).

VHF rabbit ears don't generally work very well on UHF, although they do "work" to some extent, especially if you adjust the length of the rabbit ears to be a 1/2 wave dipole on the frequency(channel - this will really work "somewhat well" for a limited "range" of only a few of the UHF channels 14~69) of desired reception. Mostly due to the wavelengths involved Using a UHF loop on VHF is even worse than trying to use "rabbit ears" on UHF ....

A UHF loop(a full wave loop) is a slightly better antenna than a "simple" 1/2 wave UHF dipole, and better "covers" the entire UHF TV band's frequency range.

A UHF Folded dipole, such as This ~$4 Radio Shack "Outline UHF Bowtie" antenna (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&cp=&pg=5&origkw=antenna&kw=antenna&parentPage=search) is a bit of a step up from a UHF loop antenna, and can also probably be more easily "hidden" than a UHF antenna stuck in a plastic base-- say behind some piece of furniture, or, you could even "hang it" with some twist tie and hide it in a window between drapes+blinds(assuming drapes and blinds in said window aren't regurarly opened) ..... The RS Double bowtie, Antennasdirect DB2 and CM4221 4 bay bowtie/CM4228 8 Bay bowtie are very similar "design" to the RS "outline UHF bowtie", except multiple bowties are "stacked" into an array for increased gain/directivity, a reflector screen is added as well, which should also increase directivity/gain. FM broadcast and Lo-VHF TV broadcast transmitting antennas also often use a similiar design, and are quite huge(and heavy) for such a antenna "array" for hi-power transmission on the lower-VHF frequencies ....

Indoor Antennas such as the Silver sensor(again, a UHF log-periodic antenna - log perodic antennas are somewhat similar to Yagi's, but offer a very "even" response, directivity+gain-wise across all the frequencies it's designed for) and RS DBT are about "one or two steps up" or so from the RS "outline bowtie" in terms of performance -- especially in terms of directivity, which is often of importance when multipath, or interference issues are a problem .... Signal gain wise, it's a bit of an improvement as well, on the order of about 3~6db or so. To get an idea of how much that is .... adding a 2 way splitter in line, or 100FT of RG6 is about 3~4db signal loss ... not much really, unless you are dealing with weak signals ... But, it all depends upon how you "look at it" ... Db scale is logarhythmic -- cutting signal by about 3db is cutting signal by about 1/2 ... For instance ---- a station running 512KW ERP(effective radiated power) is running ~3db less power than a station running 1000KW ERP .... But, in a strong signal area(with an outdoor antenna anyway), you can easily have 50db or more signal strength than you need for reception, even from a station running say, 35KW ERP on UHF .......

Then, there's multipath ... Multipath echos which the receiver can't correct for are seen as "noise" by the ATSC receiver, just as is the case with any interference - anything other than the useable portions of the (hopefully desired) ATSC signal is noise ... so, if you have 20db worth of multipath echo the receiver can't "use"/can't correct for, that's 20db more noise added to the signal(which *is* a lot when you consider our receiver's only need about 16db of S/N for "Perfect" reception) ... The better an antennas' directivity, the more it can "reject" those multipath echos --which can come in from all sorts of directions(such as a reflection off a nearby water tower, or a plane flying overhead), not just the direction of the transmitting towers .. Even though we don't think of a UHF loop or folded dipole as "directional" -- both antennas are actually directional - you generally won't receive signals very well off the "side" of it, but you will from the front or back .. A vertically polarized 1/4 wave antenna(such as the FM antenna on the front right fender on many vehicles) is a true "Omni-directional" antenna ... FM stations usually send signals which send quite a bit of vertically AND horizontally polarized ... Most analog+Digital TV stations in the U.S. send a signal which is 100% horizontally polarized(a although there are a few using Elliptical and circular polarization), and that's why we usually want our receive antennas to be horizontally polarized as well .....


When you do get this working, don't get your hopes up for anything too impressive until after 8pm.


HD for AI does look very good. Certianly is true there's still a lot of SD - even in prime time(especially some of the reality+"newsmagazine" shows) ---- Nevertheless --- There is actually quite a bit of HD available in non-prime time hours from the broadcast nets/local stations. For instance, WPTD-DT/thinkTVHD Dayton(16.6 PSIP virtual channel) does offer PBS HD channel 6pm~6am nightly. The HD looks good(well, generally - it could use more "bits" during bandwidth demanding sections of programming, IMO) for the Travel+gardening shows that are on between 6 and 8pm, although a good amount of the programming on PBS HD channel is widescreen SD upconverted to 1080i at "network" level. WCET-DT Cincinnati offers PBS HD channel 24/7 (well, except when they go off air some nights between about 1AM~7AM or so) .....

Also, Y&R is HD on CBS Every weekday 12:30~1:30pm, Good Morning America is HD, WB Sunday "Easyview" programming is HD when they are running shows that are HD when they normally air in prime time. Also, usually several sporting events are aired in HD on the Nets every weekend ... Most recently, there has been NASCAR HD on Fox, Triple Crown(KY derby last weekend) on NBC HD, Hockey on NBC HD(although WDTN-DT missed the HD Hockey this past Sunday, WLWT-DT Cincy had it in HD) and NBA HD basketball on ABC .........

Late night, Letterman, Conan, and SNL are HD. Fox News Sunday is 16x9 SD widescreen, upconverted to 720p at network level - Not HD, and obviously so -- but it looks fairly decent compared to the often poor quality video from some of the Dayton stations SD upconverts ....



its so hard to do that with a pair of huge rabbit ears... <snip>... but, there isn't any other way? I guess I would rather make sure I exhausted all my other options before sticking rabbit ears at a random place in my apartment..

I was thinking more along the lines of trying something temporarily first just to try to get it to work, then you can worry about how it looks and "hiding it", or trying to find another more "hidden" spot that might work as well later on.

Obviously, antenna(in this case a UHF antenna for the Dayton digital/HD stations) has to be connected to the proper input for your ATSC tuner in order for it even have a chance of working -- and hopefully that will do the trick(to at least some extent) --- However --- I can't underestimate, or overstate the importance of finding a "sweet spot" to place the antenna for good reception, especially for a indoor receive antenna. As I said before, there can be hot spots and cold spots for the signals all over the place - There could be "hot spots" inches, or feet away from your current antenna setup, or there may not be one in the room the antenna is currently in. You'll probably want to find one of those "hot spots" ..... It would be nice if there is one near where you want to put the antenna(such as on top or behind the TV or in a closet) - and maybe you'll get lucky, and you'll find such a spot once you get the antenna properly hooked up, but, don't count on it ....

As far as reception goes, whereever you have the antenna now is probably just a "random spot", the signals don't care whether or not on top of your TV is a good, or bad spot for reception ..... I only mentioned getting the antenna near a west facing window, as that isn't something "random" -- Signal attenuation(and often multipath) is less of a factor the less "stuff" there is between the transmitting and receiving antenna, although certian types of insulated glass can be a problem ... And, That's not to say there's not a good spot for reception somewhere else -- Maybe even in a closet, or hidden behind a piece of furniture, you'll just have to try it and see ...

If there :

A). Isn't a good way to check it with your ATSC receiver's "signal meter" while manually tuning to the Actual Channel of transmission the stations are using -- which are NOT the PSIP remapped virtual channels which your
ATSC receiver's autoscan feature can only "find" if there is a "good enough" signal to be able to decode the data sent by the station that allows your receiver to "remap" them so they appear to you to show up "next to" the analog station(per the Channel numbers posted by Terry - 2.x, 7.1, 16.x, 22.1, 26.1, 45.1 ).

In Dayton - the actual channels the digital/HD stations actually transmit on are : 18.x,30.x,41.x,50.x,51.x,58.x - The "x" in this case refers to MPEG program stream number, which varies among stations, and is often different than the # seen for say ,7.1 via PSIP remapped virtual channels -- some have x.1 as their first MPEG program stream #, some(most) have x.3 as their first program Stream # -- You might ask -- why X.3 first? It is weird - It has something to do with a FCC requirement(and I suspect stations equipment or "setup" in some cases) that stations use an PID address above hex30 for their 1st program stream due to international "coordination" issues - whatever that means ----

Anyhow -- Some ATSC receivers will let you tune manually to just the "actual" channel number (such as 58 without the 58.3~58.7 for, say WPTD-DT(ThinkTV digital - transmits on channel 58, and remaps to virtual channels 16.2~16.6 IF there's enough signal there for your receiver to find it via "autoscan"). With some receivers you'd have to punch in 58.3~58.7(58.1 wouldn't decode, but you could probably get a "signal meter" reading from it), and yet others will have a menu option which will let you "scan in" an individual channel - such as 58 in this example, and show you a signal meter while you adjust the antenna for "high+steady enough" readings from the station transmitting on that particular channel ..... I *hope* there are no receivers out there that give you no other choice than a "autochannel scan", as that is not allways very conducive to "antenna adjustments" while looking at the receiver's signal meter and trying to get a "good enough" signal ..... I've yet to see one that doesn't, even though the "manual tuning" options are often not well documented in the manual ...

Then :

B). Note: well, actually even if there is a way for you to do A). this could be useful, but even more necessarily if you can't find a way to do A). .... The analog signals *can*help you out here, at least until Feb 17, 2009 when they are currently scheduled to be "shut off" ... Anyway --- The "clearer" and more "ghost free" you can get the Dayton UHF analogs on 16,22,26,40,45 to come in with UHF antenna hooked to your "VHF/UHF" input(which should work with either analog OTA or analog cable) --.... the better chance the signal quality/strength for the digital/HD stations will be better(or "good enough") as well when you have UHF antenna hooked up to your "ATSC/digital cable(QAM)" input .... Note: analog 40 is low power, don't worry too much if it doesn't come in very well, Dayton analog 55 is also low power, and not a good choice as it transmits from a tower in a different spot, near bellbrook, Analog 20 transmits from near Springfield. 16,22,26,40,45, and their digital counterparts(as well as WDTN(analog VHF 2/digital UHF 50), WHIO(analog VHF 7/digital UHF 41) all transmit from the same "antenna farm" just SW of Downtown Dayton as mentioned in an earlier post ...

While it may work well for some folks a certian percentage of the time(especially the closer you are to the towers), and you might get lucky -- chances are generally probably not all that great that on Top of the TV will work out to be a "good spot" - no matter how "good" the antenna is .... Part of it is because it is just a "random spot"(unless perhaps it's near a window facing the towers), and part of it is because antennas can actually pick up various sorts of "electrical interference" from the TV(or other nearby electronics) itself which can cause problems --- especially if you are using 300Ohm twinlead for the antenna feedline, although probably generally moreso on VHF than UHF .... - Note: you can put a full twist in twinlead every 12" and it will reduce any Interference it might be picking up .....


not to mention the 2 wires that trail alll the way back to the VHF port on the back of my tv.... what do you guys do about those?


I use a outdoor antenna setup(tower mounted), I have the feedline (which is RG6 coax, just like cable uses) from antenna running in the attic and on the "inside" of walls. Wall plate connectors behind the TV's are used in the 4 rooms where the TV/s, receiver's/etc are connected to the antenna ... There are no visable "wires", unless you go looking behind the TV .... Same thing with my Sat dish (which is an antenna as well), except I have it mounted to the side of the house instead of a tower.

I have played around a bit with indoor reception, just to see how well it works here(I'm down in a small, steep valley, nearby ground being higher than my tower mounted antenna in many directions doesn't help) ... With even the best of antennas "sitting on" or near the TV, or placed in the attic, I can't get much of anything except extremely poor analog reception, and occasional signal locks on WRGT-DT/WDTN-DT, Dayton.

However, if I hang the Radio shack UHF "outline bowtie" with a bit of twist tie to a venitian blind in a East Facing 2nd story window, I can get good reception(well, for as long as I tried it at least) of most of the Dayton digital stations(12 Miles Northeast). And, placing it in A South facing window+combining it with a VHF/UHF combiner with a set of VHF "rabbit ears" sitting on the floor behind a chair(as WCPO-DT, ABC HD Cincinnati transmits on VHF), the same is true for most of the cincinnati digital/HD stations(27~32 Miles South). In both cases, a 300ohm-->>75 ohm matching transformer was used very near the antenna(s) so I could use coax instead of 300 ohm twinlead(which is low loss, but easily picks up interference) for the antenna feedline. Because of the relatively long coax run to the TV's,+ because the signal is split several times to feed various devices in different rooms ---- I also hooked up a preamp(just a cheap Radio shack distribution amp) near the antenna+ran a feed from it into the attic where I could hook it up to the cable(s - with splitters/etc) that feeds my TV's/receivers/recording devices/etc ...... And, In both cases, reception of(Dayton or Cincinnati) analog stations via this method leaves something to be desired, even though generally speaking, reception of the digital stations seemed to work quite well(again, for the short time I tried it) ... For the most part, with this simple indoor setup, the analogs suffered from some ghosting, but mainly the problem was a bit of snow(weak signal)" .... Not extremely weak, and it wouldn't probably be much of a problem on a smallish, say 13" set, but I certianly wouldn't want to watch it if I didn't have to ....

If for some reason I had to temporarily live with indoor reception here --- (and I do need the outdoor setup for excellent analog reception as well as reception of a few important(to me or family) analog+digital stations, such as WCVN-DT/KET+PBS HD in Covington, KY) --- I'm sure I'd be able to fix something up until I had the chance to fix up something better - "hiding" the "cable" behind the drapes+furniture(or along bottom of a baseboard/even under a carpet may be be a possibility in some cases) if so desired would be easy enough with the "Outline bowtie" as the drapes/blinds in the 2nd story windows I mentioned above aren't generally opened, anyway ..... And, the VHF rabbit ears,(with the "ears" in a "horizontal posistion" and adjusted for a 1/2 wavelentgh dipole on VHF channel 10) picked up a acceptable signal from WCPO-DT sitting behind a piece of furniture(but still near a south facing window) ....

sorry if that was a little long winded, it's not "rocket science", but it does often take a lot of words even to describe simple things on a forum such as this. What I'm trying to get at here is :

#1). The importance of generally simple things you can do to improve your reception -- such as -- moving the antenna around to find that "sweet spot" for reception and properly hooking up the antenna, and in cases when weak signals are an issue -- minimizing signal loss as much as possible.

#2). "when there is a will, there is usually(but unfortuntely not allways) a way". And, that includes the "hiding" of antennas and cables if it is of importance to you ..... Or, as another poster menitoned, you could also choose to "get cable", although keep in mind you won't currently get NBC HD or WB HD that way, you'll need OTA for those until(and if) such time TW Dayton comes to an agreement with WBDT+WDTN for carriage of their digital/HD signals ....

Wow! Thanks for taking the time to post all that Nitewatchman! Great info... (how did yu learn alll that?)So I had some time to test and purchase some things last night. I bought the Terk antenna... and that sucked.. my "crummy" Jensen antenna was just as bad. Then I took that back and the guy at circuit city suggested a powered amplifier by the same company... so I bough that... and it worked wonders compared to the other 2! I finally saw the "snow" you guys were talking about... drove me nuts trying to get rid of it completely.

So unfortunately after all this hassle... my roommate decided to finally split cable with me... is there a reason I should keep the antenna still?

So unfortunately after all this hassle... my roommate decided to finally split cable with me... is there a reason I should keep the antenna still?

NBC-HD and WB-HD are the only reasons. CBS-HD, FOX-HD, ABC-HD, and PBS-HD are all on Time Warner Cable already.

Then I took that back and the guy at circuit city suggested a powered amplifier by the same company... so I bough that... and it worked wonders compared to the other 2! I finally saw the "snow" you guys were talking about... You're still not doing something right. There is NO snow with digital channels. It's either "no signal" or a perfect picture or occassionally a pixellated picture.
So unfortunately after all this hassle... my roommate decided to finally split cable with me... is there a reason I should keep the antenna still? Some will suggest to keep it for the times when cable goes out. I've been back with TW for almost two years now and I can't recall my cable EVER going out. If it did go out, many people forget that life does exist outside of sitting in front of the TV. Go outside....

Noticed 27.5 is showing up again from WRGT-DT's VCT(PSIP virtual channel table) since about last thrusday or Friday - I think it must've happened Thursday or Friday during Prime time when the Fox "HD Splicer" would have been "active". Some receivers which change/update their internal VC info only during an "autoscan" may not "see it" unless a autoscan is performed while info is being sent for 27.5 from WRGT-DT ....

As usual when this happens, it decodes fine on either 27.5 or 45.1 .. Seems like the last time this happened, 27.5 popped up on either a thursday or Friday as well, until it was fixed later the next week .... Haven't seen this "behavior" from other Fox HD stations, such as WXIX-DT Cincinnati ....

You're still not doing something right. There is NO snow with digital channels. It's either "no signal" or a perfect picture or occassionally a pixellated picture.


Well, I think that info (and the info about TW Dayton not carrying NBC HD or WB HD currently) has been posted numourous times on the past couple of pages on this thread, but our message doesn't seem to be getting "through" somehow, LOL ...

Either that, or he "misworded" his post a bit, and meant to say the "snow" disappered and was replaced with crystal clear pictures(and HD when "available') when he plugged his antenna into the ATSC input on his TV+performed an autoscan .... which really should be the case provided the signals are "good enough", and any relevant menu option on the TV is set to scan for off-air channels and not QAM/digital cable channels(which apparently according to the info in the manual that input could be used for either ATSC OTA or QAM/Digital cable - with or without "cablecard) ..

He probably really wouldn't get any signals(even snowy ones) from the analog stations if he doesn't connect up the antenna to the VHF/UHF(for either analog OTA or analog cable I assume) input, so if nothing else, he could probably get the "snowy" analog signals out of the picture entirely by not hooking the antenna(or included external splitter) to the VHF/UHF input, and only hook up the antenna to the "ATSC/digital cable" input ...

Anyway --- if he still is having problems -- at this point only other thing I can think of that might help .... Perhaps someone in Beavercreek/Fairborn area(or someone who works in that area) can drop by GQ's place and help him out ?

You're still not doing something right. There is NO snow with digital channels. It's either "no signal" or a perfect picture or occassionally a pixellated picture.


Well... I tried plugging the powered antenna into the ATSC tuner and did an autoscan..... nothing... it says "weak signal" and has a 0 as the signal strength. I assume this is the one we are trying to get to work? I also tried tuning into the channels... ie: pressing 2 6 then the sub button then 1 on my remote. that makes it try to go to 26-1 I thi nk I am doing this correctly?

Then I tried plugging it into the NTSC port..... and did an autoscan....had some reception (I assume these were all analog channels because they didn't look very good and changed drastically based on where I pointed my antenna)

Then I tried buying the splitter and extra cable and hooking to both... did an autoscan.. same thing... fuzzy.

However, I don't think its worth you guys banging your head against a wall trying to help me anymore... I will probably just say screw it and get Basic cable from Time Warner for $65 a month. the Digi 1000.. and then paying the extra $6 a month for HD espn, and movies...

Just noticed WKEF-DT has added a multicast SD subchannel :

22.2 "The Tube" Music Network - 24/7 Music Videos ...

Some receivers may need a channel rescan to see it.

For those that haven't seen it before:

WXIX-DT Cincinnati has had the Tube up for about a year now - Content wise, I think it's an interesting use of a digital multicast subchannel, and if you like Rock
'n' roll, you'll likely enjoy much of it(the content) -- Content wise, It's a lot like MTV was in the 80's - only better, with not only new stuff, but more "closet classics", probably some you haven't seen before ...

The PQ and audio quality for "The Tube" aren't that great however(that's been the case for every station I've seen it on - The audio is even usually monural). Will have to keep a close eye on ABC HD PQ on 22.1, although 720p+1 multicast SD subchannel can work quite well(1080i+multicasting is another story from what I've seen so far ...) - it's not a problem at all for Fox HD affiliates that are running "The Tube", as given the way the Fox HD splicer works, there's "room" for a SD subchannel ...

-------------------------

Oh, BTW noticed the "duplicate" 27.5 VC is now gone from WRGT-DT, decoding them fine on 45.1 ...

Well... I tried plugging the powered antenna into the ATSC tuner and did an autoscan..... nothing... it says "weak signal" and has a 0 as the signal strength. I assume this is the one we are trying to get to work? I also tried tuning into the channels... ie: pressing 2 6 then the sub button then 1 on my remote. that makes it try to go to 26-1 I thi nk I am doing this correctly?



You can't "tune" to 26.1(or see any kind of indication of signal from it) unless your receiver has been able to receive enough signal from the station on it's actual channel of transmission(channel 18 in this case), so that receiver can receive the virtual channel remapping info being sent from the station and "remap" it to 26.1.

It depends upon how/if your receiver can tune to an "actual channel of transmission" and the method may vary somewhat -- But for instance what you'd want to be able to do(with the antenna hooked up to the ATSC input) is "tune" manually to 18.3,(and you may be able to do just that, you'll have to try it) put up the signal meter on screen then adjust your antenna(including moving it to find that "sweet spot" if necessary) for highest/steadiest readings on the meter. When you get the antenna adjusted so it's a "good enough" signal from the station, then the signal will lock and it can then be found via an autoscan(as long as you don't move the antenna/etc. before doing the autoscan), and "tuned to" on 26.1 ...

The Strongest signals would likely be in the following order -- or nearly so - I'd start with trying the first 3 on the list - For instance, WDTN-DT 50 is running 1000KW ERP, WBDT-DT is running 35KW ERP, with a directional antenna pattern --- Meaning WBDT-DT is probably at least 15db weaker(quite a bit of difference) than WDTN-DT's signal :

1. WDTN-DT (NBC HD) -- "actual" channel: 50.4 - Remapped Virtual Channel 2.1

(note WDTN-DT also has SD digital on 50.3, 2.2 remapped)

2. WHIO-DT (CBS HD) - Actual Channel : 41.1 - Remapped virtual channel 7.1

3. WRGT-DT (FOX HD) - Actual channel : 30.3 - Remapped virtual channel 45.1

4. WPTD-DT (PBS/ThinkTV) - Actual channel : 58.3 - Remapped virtual channel 16.2

(Note: that's SD, PBS HD is on 58.7, or 16.6 remapped virtual channel but only from 6pm-6am nightly - They have 5 different "channels" total, which can be found 58.3~58.7 (16.2~16.6 remapped)

5. WKEF-DT (ABC HD) - "actual channel : 51.3 - Remapped virtual channel 22.1

(Note: WKEF-DT also has "The Tube" on 51.4, remapped VC 22.2)

6. WBDT-DT (WB HD) - actual channel - 18.3 - remapped virtual channel 26.1

See the OTA FAQ in hardware area I provided a link to earlier for more info.

You'll also find the "actual" channels of transmission listed on FCC TV query site, and in the "frequency assignment" column at www.antennaweb.org -- Note, those however don't show the MPEG program stream Number, which I've included above (the "3" in 18.3 ) .....Note that some receivers might work with manual tuning with "x.1" (such as 18.1) instead of 18.3, and might "automatically" "switch you" to the virtual channel as soon as a signal lock is achieved (such as 26.1 in this case) ....

----------------

IMPORTANT NOTE: If there is any such menu option on your TV, make sure you have your ATSC input set for "off air" channels, Not for "cable channels" as different frequencies are "used" or "scanned") for cable vs. OTA channel #'s/etc .

If you can find some sort of way to tune to the actual channels manually+adjust+orient antenna so you can get a signal lock, then your receiver will find those channels via a "autoscan" as well, although you may need different antenna placement/orientation for best results from different stations .....

----------------------

Of course, another possibility that we haven't talked about *could* be that there could be something "wrong" with the ATSC tuner in your set. That would probably be very, very unlikely, however.

IMPORTANT NOTE: If there is any such menu option on your TV, make sure you have your ATSC input set for "off air" channels, Not for "cable channels" as different frequencies are "used" or "scanned") for cable vs. OTA channel #'s/etc .

If you can find some sort of way to tune to the actual channels manually+adjust+orient antenna so you can get a signal lock, then your receiver will find those channels via a "autoscan" as well, although you may need different antenna placement/orientation for best results from different stations .....

----------------------

Of course, another possibility that we haven't talked about *could* be that there could be something "wrong" with the ATSC tuner in your set. That would probably be very, very unlikely, however.

Well, I know I have it set to Air in the menu. And I read in the manual the sub button is how I tune to sub channels.... I suppose the tuner could be broke... since this is the last store model they had...

Well, I know I have it set to Air in the menu. And I read in the manual the sub button is how I tune to sub channels.....

You are Using the "sub button" correctly -- HOWEVER try "punching in" the actual channel numbers used for transmission by the Dayton digital/HD stations which I listed above, along with the method I listed above to look at signal meter+adjust antenna for best results, not the virtual remapped channels. You can't use the remapped virtual channels(such as 26.1) to tune to stations or look at the signal meter until AFTER your receiver has received a signal lock on the actual channel the signal is transmitted on (18 for WBDT-DT).

You can't receive a signal lock if you are getting too "poor" reception of the digital signal due to antenna placement/orientation, and there is NO WAY for your tuner to know WBDT-DT "remaps" to virtual channel 26.1 until it can receive that info from the station, that info is transmitted on channel 18, not channel 26.1 or from analog station WBDT 26. You can't receive that info from the station unless you've got your antenna orientated and posistioned such that you are getting a "good enough" signal. If you can tune to 18.3 "manually", you *can* use the signal meter so you can adjust the antenna so you *can* get enough signal for a signal lock so you can receive the channel remapping info AND WB HD ....

Note that It is also possible, depending upon how the "tuning" on your particular tuner works that you may be able to just use the actual channel of transmission (such as 18 without the x.3) and get a signal reading on the meter. It just depends upon how it's implemented on your hardware. Some sets would just use the NTSC(analog) tuner if you punch in "18" without a "subchannel", others might use ATSC tuner and use the signal meter for ATSC/digital if you have a "ATSC input" selected.

Another possibility would be that your tuner doesn't allow for this sort of "manual" tuning, and can only "find" digital stations "autoscan". Hopefully not, as of course you have no way of using the "signal meter" to adjust your antenna in order to get a good enough signal so the autoscan can "find" the signals ...

I believe there is a thread specific to your model of TV elsewhere on AVSforum, hopefully someone there which has used your model of set with OTA HD+ any "manual tuning" using "actual channel numbers"(not remapped channels) options it offers would be able to tell you the specifics on exactly how you can do it with your set....

Given your distance from the broadcast towers, generally you should have NO trouble getting good, solid signals. Your apt complex is behind Lowes, right ?? Is it down in the valley or up the hill ?? Looking at Lowes or that "strip", the front of them all face almost *exactly* the direction you want.

As ghetto as it might look, try positioning the antenna in a window (do you have a balcony ??) that faces west or southwest. Then try and get it as high as possible. I have a silver sensor type antenna myself and get the best results pointing the antenna towards the towers. Some say it can be set 90' (like an old "fan") to the towers to get good results though. Don't have *anything* in between the antenna and the towers (that you can control). If I put my antenna on top of my TV, pointed out a window, it works fine. If you walk from the couch to pick up the phone though, you cross the "path" and actually block reception. That's one negative of indoor antennas...

Make sure it's connected to the ATSC connection on your TV. The next part is up to you... How you tell it to scan for digital channels only and so on most of us can't help you with.

Given your distance from the broadcast towers, generally you should have NO trouble getting good, solid signals.


While I "generally"(well, sort of) agree with you, I think "Generally" in this case could be open for debate. As I've said before, there are *MANY* factors which can delitiously effect reception, no matter HOW distant you are from the towers, in fact multipath can often be more of a problem *closer* to the towers(especially for instance in urban settings with lots of tall buildings with a lot of steel in them) .... And, another thing you need to keep in mind is, it is "generally" the people who are having problems with their reception who post here about it and are asking for help, not the folks that aren't having any problems .....


try positioning the antenna in a window (do you have a balcony ??) that faces west or southwest. Then try and get it as high as possible. I have a silver sensor type antenna myself and get the best results pointing the antenna towards the towers. ...... Don't have *anything* in between the antenna and the towers (that you can control).


While the above is "generally" good advice, and I believe I've said pretty much the same thing about 5 times on the past 2 pages as something easy to try which is at least somewhat likely to produce improved results --- Nevertheless, I think too many folks here who achieve easy success with their OTA reception too easily conclude that if it works "for them" in their particular location or at their distance, the same thing will(or should) work for *everyone* ....

Sorry, but that is just not necessarily the case. Because(again, since we're good at repeating stuff here) there are *many* factors which can delitourously effect reception, even when you do everything *right*, and yes, even 3, or 8 or 10 miles from the towers. For instance, as I've mentioned in a earlier post, certian types of insulated window glass can cause problems. Other materials used for building construction can cause issues as well. Which is why I think it would be best, if(if possible) Mr. GQ can find a way to manually tune to the actual channel used for transmission by the station+use his signal meter along with adjusting the antenna and finding a good "placement" for his antenna in order to achieve (hopefully) good reception.

There's is a lot of "leeway" between having just enough signal to achieve "perfect reception" with no dropouts and having a extremely "strong signal"(and much more than you need), but, since digital OTA is a all or nothing thing -- there is not much leeway between having "almost a good enough signal"(say 14db S/N which will produce nothing except meter readings for a RF channel being used) and a JUST "good enough" signal(~16db S/N) for perfect reception ..... Since we know Mr. GQ is getting weak "snowy" analog signals with his current antenna posistion/setup, I think he is probably mostly dealing with the latter, currently - He just won't know it unless he can manage to (quite by accident), put the antenna in a "good enough" posistion or spot such that it can get a signal lock -- OR(and I'd think this would be the better thing) use manual tuning to the actual channel of transmission+use the signal meter to adjust the antenna for best results ....


How you tell it to scan for digital channels only and so on most of us can't help you with.

Since it seems many folks don't understand the "virtual remapping thing", and that the digital stations transmit on "different" channels entirely than the analog station, I think it should be useful for folks who can't get the channels they want(and shoulc be getting) with an "autoscan" to understand that .... which is why I went into detail about it in the OTA FAQ in hardware area ....

It doesn't mean they ALL do, however Every ATSC receiver I have owned(and I've owned 4 of them) has had some sort of way to manually tune(or individually/manually "scan in" with a signal meter display present) to the actual channel used to transmit the signals, so you can manually adjust antenna for best(or at least a "good enough" signal for reception) signal. You can't use PSIP remapped virtual channel for that, which as noted above can't be used UNLESS a signal that's good enough for a signal lock is achieved, as that channel remapping info is sent with the stations signal. You need pretty much the same quality+strentgh of signal to decode the PSIP remapping info as you do to decode+display the content(video/audio streams). Unfortuently however, the "manual tuning options" are often not well documented in the manual. There is nothing about it in my Sony KD34XBR960's manual for instance, even though, at any time I can tune directly to 18.3(actual channel) for WBDT-DT/WB HD, or 26.1 virtual channel(AFTER an autoscan) ..... It also says little in the manual about it's "signal meter" ....

One exception to the above are some(many?) models of sat+OTA HD receivers which receive virtual channel info for the locals from the EPG sent via the satellite.

The tuner in my Samsung HLR-4667W doesn't seem to have a way to manually tune to stations that it did not pick up in an autoscan. Even if I punch in the real broadcast channel it won't let me see if I can adjust the antenna to improve picture. The tuner just remains at the channel I am currently tuned to.

The tuner in my Samsung HLR-4667W doesn't seem to have a way to manually tune to stations that it did not pick up in an autoscan.

Not including such difficulties "finding" the signals such as Mr. GQ is having, How do you tune in stations which are in different directions that require different antenna aiming(although not in Dayton(except a couple of the LP's) it is often the case that even in the same market, some stations broadcast from vastly different tower locations ......

As I said in last post, I'm not saying there aren't any receiver's that don't, but It makes no sense to me not to include some sort of "manual tuning" option to allow you to tune to a RF channel(since it can't remap via PSIP to the virtual channel if it can't get enough signal to decode the VCT info sent by the station) and adjust your antenna+give you some sort of signal reading. We need some sort of standards for this sort of thing ....

The receivers I've had handle this in several different ways. On one receiver I have here (Hisense DB-2010) in addition to a "autoscan" of all channels, it has a menu option that allows you to "scan in" an individual RF channel. The other 3 allow you to tune manually to the RF channel, and the ATSC receiver in the sony also has an additional autoscan option that allows you to, for instance rotate the antenna and use "add digital channel" without removing the previously "autoscanned" channels ..... RCA DTC-100 even has two seperate antenna inputs(with seperate channel "profiles" for each), so I could hook a "Dayton" antenna to one input and a cincinnati antenna to the other input and switch between them on the remote ....

When I post my responses, I try and make them simple enough for laymen to understand. To be honest, when you start explaining things, it could turn a lot of people off and just throw their hands up and get HD from cable or satellite.... The average person simply isn't going to put a HUGE amount of effort into this stuff.

Not including such difficulties "finding" the signals such as Mr. GQ is having, How do you tune in stations which are in different directions that require different antenna aiming(although not in Dayton(except a couple of the LP's) it is often the case that even in the same market, some stations broadcast from vastly different tower locations ......

As I said in last post, I'm not saying there aren't any receiver's that don't, but It makes no sense to me not to include some sort of "manual tuning" option to allow you to tune to a RF channel(since it can't remap via PSIP to the virtual channel if it can't get enough signal to decode the VCT info sent by the station) and adjust your antenna+give you some sort of signal reading. We need some sort of standards for this sort of thing ....

I don't have a rotor on my roof mounted antenna so I just point it at Dayton since the Cinci channels I care about come over cable. Even with my antenna pointed at Dayton I get very reasonable digital reception of the Cinci stations. I have only figured out how to add analog channels with no ability to manually tune to digital channels.

Well, I couldn't decide which of the below responses to Hall's last post was best, so take your pick :

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response #1:

Intent without knowledge is like a boat on dry land ....

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Response #2 :

When I post my responses, I try and make them simple enough for laymen to understand.


So do I, I also strive to provide correct and useful information. Sorry I'm not doing that "well enough" for you, I'm doing the best I can.

However, I suspect "the layman" in general is a little "smarter" than you might think, it sometimes just takes a while(and that's the case for anyone - layman or " professional") for some of it to sink in. Especially perhaps for folks who have never used OTA before HD, or for folks who are familiar with how OTA analog reception "works", but not digital. It's also easy to see a little more of what is going on when you plug in your antenna, do an autoscan and get perfect reception, it's not so easy if you've never seen OTA HD "work" and when you get nothing but a "big fat zero" when you try it.

But, If I'm not "helping any", as you seem to be saying is the case, perhaps I should just stop posting on this thread(again), if it is not "simple enough" to be of any use for folks .....

Perhaps it should be *you* who explains(in a "simple", short, and concise yet accurate manner) the possible ways Mr. GQ may be able to check his digital signal levels and adjust his antenna placement or aiming/orientation accordingly when no sign of the signals show up on a autoscan, even with his antenna hooked up to ATSC input.

Simple or no, I'm not so sure a response of, "How you tell it to scan for digital channels only and so on most of us can't help you with." is all that useful or informative in this regard.

#1). If you have not used OTA before, and have spent your entire life watching/using "cable" instead .... simple(but often important) things those of us who have been using OTA for decades and take for granted can be very unfamilar, and it is certianly understandable it might *seem* complicated, therefore why not explain what they are and what they do? Such as VHF and or UHF antennas, connectors which can allow you to "extend" the amount of feedline for your antenna, matching transformers, 300 ohm twinlead, 75 ohm coax, VHF/UHF combiners, Multipath, signal attenuation issues, directional antennas, yagis, rotors, signal loss or impedance mismathes from feedline or components in between the antenna+tuner input --- By the way, in most cases you actually *do* hook the antenna up right to the tuner, which is usually several components in a "tin can" with a 75Ohm female F-connector on the end which is the input(s) on the back of your TV -- a analog TV with a PIP for example has two of those "cans" inside, with the signal from the antenna(or cable) being routed through both. Recently, they has been a product announcement of a Broadband silicon tuner for ATSC in a single chip solution, but up to now, it's been the "tin-can" approach, just as we've had with analog NTSC ... Also, What is often referred to here as a ATSC "tuner" is actually much more than that, and is really probably best and more accurately refered to as a ATSC "receiver". (or ATSC/QAM in the case of those which do both ATSC+QAM digital cable+cablecard) ...

#2). If you are "used" to the way analog OTA reception works --- what you get signal wise is what you see directly on the screen, and the channel you "tune to" is the channel the station is broadcasting its signal on - ----- . But, if you are having reception difficulties with digital and using "autoscan" doesn't work well for you --- Not being able to "see" exactly what is going on with the signal may seem very strange, and therefore it may be necessary for you to learn a little more, as it's unfortuntely not as intuitive a process of "adjusting the antenna" to get rid of "snow" or "ghosts" as is the case with analog OTA ..... There's no reason why a "layman" shouldn't be able to understand it, and it's not usually necessary to understand ALL of it in order for it to "work", nor in most cases should it involve many hours of "hassle", effort, or study ....


To be honest, when you start explaining things, it could turn a lot of people off and just throw their hands up and get HD from cable or satellite.... The average person simply isn't going to put a HUGE amount of effort into this stuff.

I'm trying to help folks out whenever and however possible. That includes answering questions(and there are NO stupid questions here) when I can to the best of my ability. Again, I do my best to provide accurate(and sometimes detailed ) info on the subjects I post about here, including in some cases the "why's" along with the "how's", which I'd think should be useful info for folks.

If that "turns people off" and they choose to use cable or sat, or they don't read it, so be it. I'm not here to make folks decisions about OTA or cable or sat for others. One big reason I am here is to try to help folks out+provide accurate info, as AVSforum helped me out years ago when I first purchased HD equipment. I allways welcome any corrections to any incorrect comments I make in my posts - although I may ask for clarifications or additional info or may feel additional "discussion" may be required if such "corrections" disagree with other accurate sources --- I will even usually thank folks for such corrections, not *bash* them for it .....

Sorry, I'm not a "mind reader", I don't know beforehand in any specific case the "exact words" which would be best to use to explain this or that to any particular person.

Furthermore, I don't think anything I posted in regards to trying to help Mr. GQ out with his reception should require much effort or "hassle" besides 8th grade level (or similar) reading comprehension skills. Such as : move antenna near window facing towers, if an autoscan doesn't work, check to see if you can punch in the actual channel used for transmission (such as "50, or 50.4 for WDTN-DT) and get a signal reading off the meter so you can adjust your antenna's placement for best signal reading/etc/etc ... When I mention acryonyms such as "PSIP" or "virtual channels", or mention the difference between a channel a station is transmitting on and a virtual "remapped channel", yes, I may try my best to explain it, especially for newbies who are unfamilar with it ...

I don't have a rotor on my roof mounted antenna so I just point it at Dayton since the Cinci channels I care about come over cable. Even with my antenna pointed at Dayton I get very reasonable digital reception of the Cinci stations. I have only figured out how to add analog channels with no ability to manually tune to digital channels.

Thanks for the response, However I suppose I should have worded my question a little differently - I did not intend to confine my question to only asking what specifically was involved with it in your "specific" reception circumstance, instead I also meant to ask -- without any other capability besides "autoscan", how would you accomplish getting the channels "scanned in" IF you *did* need to use different antenna orientation/aiming for different stations ...

Believe it or not, it is not uncommon to need that capability, and, The capability to do that would seem to me to be a necessary requirement for any ATSC receiver ... Nor is it common to achieve acceptable reception(which to me pretty much means perfect reception 24/7 365 days a year with no dropouts) with a single antenna setup (w/o rotor) from stations located in vastly different directions .....

Perhaps it should be *you* who explains(in a "simple", short, and concise yet accurate manner) the possible ways Mr. GQ may be able to check his digital signal levels and adjust his antenna placement or aiming/orientation accordingly when no sign of the signals show up on a autoscan, even with his antenna hooked up to ATSC input.

Simple or no, I'm not so sure a response of, "How you tell it to scan for digital channels only and so on most of us can't help you with." is all that useful or informative in this regard. Given that the TV is sitting in his home, he is the one who needs to locate the antenna, he is the one with the owner's manual for his particular TV, and so on, NO, *he* is by far the "best" one to sort this out.

Makes me wonder how many HDTVs are returned to stores because the built-in ATSC tuner "doesn't work .... it doesn't pick up any channels".

NO, *he* is by far the "best" one to sort this out.


And he's asking for HELP and advice on how to do just that -- "sort this out !!!! "

There was nothing wrong with my answer(including the accuracy of it) to him on this, including involving his question about tuning to 26.1 and seeing a bit fat "zero", I made it as clear and simple as possible(after trying twice before and evidently failing to be "clear enough" or "simple enough") --- for convienience, I even listed the actual channels of transmission involved in case there is an option that allows him to "use" them, and I also recommended he try asking about it on a thread more specific to his set, so he could hear from other users who have had success ....

Guys, its ok... like I said, I gave it as good of a shot as I thought I should give antenna... anything more was not worth my free time getting eaten up (I make my posts and do my research on here at work) And with my roommate splitting the new cable bill I will have, its no big deal. Thanks to you all for the advice and helpful suggestions to a newbie such as myself.... now please don't fight over helping me :-)

LOL, well, hopefully someone learned something useful out of some of that .... Oh well ....

Has anyone other then Hall noticed more issues lately with the 8300HD? I've had a number of shows (3) in the past week that haven't taped, or said that the recording was unavailable. My parent's who have 2 8300HD's and my sisters who has a SD SA dvr, have both had the same exact issues as well. They called TWC and a tech was sent out who just swapped boxes (which obviously wouldn't help, and didn't considering the issue has to be firmware related). The issue is becoming a huge nuisance and has pretty much rendered my box useless when it comes to reliability.

Have you gotten a response back from your contact Hall?

Sorry, yes, I did get a response. It was basically "we haven't heard of any issues" and that if my box is acting up the way I describe, to get it exchanged. For what it's worth, I haven't seen the lockup or reboot issues since that first 3-4 days after the upgrade. Odd....

Sorry, yes, I did get a response. It was basically "we haven't heard of any issues" and that if my box is acting up the way I describe, to get it exchanged. For what it's worth, I haven't seen the lockup or reboot issues since that first 3-4 days after the upgrade. Odd....

I haven't seen the lockup issue either since then, but the non recording issue has been popping up. I also noticed the other day, that when i cancelled a series recording, it caused the next instance of all my current series recordings to be removed from the scheduled to record list. Oh well, if it keeps happening, I may just get a new box.

I think I've narrowed down the reboot/lockup issue with my box to using HDMI-to-DVI. In case you don't know, TW doesn't support using the HDMI connection at all. It "works", in some cases better than others, but since it's not 100% (or even close), TW plays it safe and says "use component cabling".

I think I've narrowed down the reboot/lockup issue with my box to using HDMI-to-DVI. In case you don't know, TW doesn't support using the HDMI connection at all. It "works", in some cases better than others, but since it's not 100% (or even close), TW plays it safe and says "use component cabling".

I'm using component and have seen it too...

Anyone watch WKEF last night? Wife was watching "Grey's Anatomy" and there was a horrible ghosting/color problem on both 22.1 and TWC 722. The music videos were coming in fine on 22.2.

Any chance 22.2 could/will be used to show additional regional college football games during the football season (e.g. one big 10 game on 22.1 and one pac 10 game on 22.2)?