I thought TNT-HD and Discovery HD Theatre switching from "Free to air" to "Authorized" a long time ago, like well over a year ago. 1450khz, can you confirm that ??

For the local channels, if someone with an HD set-top (from TWC) can go into diagnostic mode, they can see if those channels are 'free' or 'authorized' now. By the way, since when did TWC send the sub-channels too ?? I thought they only broadcast the "primary" digital channel.

I saw on my parents TV a few weeks back they had added the Tube and MyTV or whatever the name of the subchannel is for WRGT.

Tube would be 22-2 and MyTV would be 45-2. Didn't know they were carrying those.... What's 45-3 ??

Tube would be 22-2 and MyTV would be 45-2. Didn't know they were carrying those.... What's 45-3 ??

45-3 is (or was when it was coming through) WRGT-HD... I get no 45-1...

Concerning AVS forum Dayton Thread - No problems I'm aware of, other than, up until yesterday there wasn't much activity there --- Yesterday, one fellow did report he was experiencing issues with WKEF-DT -- I "interpeted" his post as a RF signal/reception related issue, although that may not be correct.

Sorry, I dropped out for a bit and haven't had a chance to update. It was the seasonal leaf fall that threw me off. Mulitpath is killing me. I aimed my antenna about 30 degrees from where it worked well with the leafed trees. Channels aren't quite picking up as well as previously, but at least I get WKEF again. Hopefully I'll be able to successfully record Lost and Grey's Anatomy this week.

Anyone now if WKEF has looked into boosting their signal?

I've been noticing the sound drop on CBS for games as well, but not on standard shows.

OTA, I get 45.1 and 45.2, never got 45.3.

Thanks!

It was the seasonal leaf fall that threw me off.


I think this sort of thing is really turning out to be a PITA for folks who experience this issue .... It's hard to tell how many folks are having problems with it, but Hopefully "TPTB" will (or already have) looked into this in quite a bit of detail as it concerns making useful improvements for future receivers ...



Anyone now if WKEF has looked into boosting their signal?


"Basically" speaking they are operating at the maximum power level FCC will currently allow them at present -- When the analog stations shut down in 2009, they may be able to increase power if they so desire.

Although, concerning WKEF-DT, personally I'm not so sure an increase in power is necessary as the power they are running currently seems to me to be more than enough to cover their analog station's service area - I even know of folks who have reported receiving them just fine with indoor antennas from Northern KY .... OTOH, of course more power does generally make it easier for "beyond" fringe area viewers to receive them, and for folks with severe signal attenuation issues due to terrain or certian buidling materials+having antenna indoors/etc.

Also, keep in mind more power isn't going to help multipath, it will just make the multipath echoes(again, uncorrectable multipath is just seen as extra "noise" by the receiver) equally stronger ...


OTA, I get 45.1 and 45.2, never got 45.3.


That is all there is from WRGT-DT currently, 2 program streams - Fox HD/WRGT SD programming upconverted to 720p which most receivers will see on 45.1, and MyTV(and other programming) at 480i which most receivers will see on 45.2.

WRGT-DT actually transmits on channel 30 OTA, and remaps to 45.x via something called PSIP --- so it "appears" to have the same major channel number as the analog station. .... On receivers here on which I can "turn off" PSIP and use MPEG info only on the program stream, I see them on 30.3 (Fox HD/etc), and 30.4(MyTV) --

Perhaps for some reason, unless it is something TW is doing with the PID's or if they're changing the PSIP VCT(I'd read they aren't, but I can't verify that) -- some decoders(using QAM via TWC), such as the one in browerjs's TV may be using the MPEG program stream #'s and or PID's(packet identifers) instead of PSIP VCT(virtual channel table) Minor channel number field(which is where we get the x.1 and x.2 from for WRGT-DT OTA.)

IPerhaps for some reason, unless it is something TW is doing with the PID's or if they're changing the PSIP VCT(I'd read they aren't, but I can't verify that) -- some decoders(using QAM via TWC), such as the one in browerjs's TV may be using the MPEG program stream #'s and or PID's(packet identifers) instead of PSIP VCT(virtual channel table) Minor channel number field(which is where we get the x.1 and x.2 from for WRGT-DT OTA.)

I have seen WRGT-HD show up on 45-3 on my OTA receiver as well, but this was only for a short period of time, probably 4-5 months ago.

I thought TNT-HD and Discovery HD Theatre switching from "Free to air" to "Authorized" a long time ago, like well over a year ago. 1450khz, can you confirm that ??

For the local channels, if someone with an HD set-top (from TWC) can go into diagnostic mode, they can see if those channels are 'free' or 'authorized' now. By the way, since when did TWC send the sub-channels too ?? I thought they only broadcast the "primary" digital channel.

You rang?

Yes, TNT-HD and Discovery HD are not in the clear anymore. Sure wish they were, as I don't think they are part of the HD Tier. Probably just a scheme to get box rental money out of people. Since TWC has announced yet another rate hike, I'm thinking about switching to Dish instead. Hate to lose the locals via clear QAM though, because my OTA reception is pitiful.

For those who are curious, I updated my Fusion QAM card drivers and rescanned channels. The new driver shows all active subchannels for each QAM carrier and even tells you if it's encrypted or not. Here's what I get now:
91-0 WHIO HD (CBS)
93-0 WRGT HD (FOX)
93-1 WRGT SUB (My Network TV)
93-2 WKEF SUB (The Tube)
93-3 WKEF HD (ABC)
94-x are the Music Choice Channels. I was able to get 2 or 3 of them "in the clear" but the rest are scrambled.
100-4 (or so) Answers On Demand
101-something Movie Trailers (PPV promos)
108-0-9 WPTO and WPTD (PBS)
109-0-2 WCET (PBS)

everything else is scrambled.

When it was first added, ESPN HD was "in the clear" while they were testing. It was on 106-1. Discovery HD and TNT HD were on 114-1 and 114-2.

I have seen WRGT-HD show up on 45-3 on my OTA receiver as well, but this was only for a short period of time, probably 4-5 months ago.

Didn't notice that here, but it certianly could have popped up that way for a while without me seeing/noticing it .... some receivers don't change their internal virtual channel(VC) info they display unless you do a new channel scan, and some update their info to match what the station sends every time you tune to a station .. In any case, I believe the VC info remains the same from WRGT-DT whether it is being received OTA or via a user supplied QAM tuner via TWC (w/o PSIP, you'd get the channel #'s via cable which 1450khz listed ablove) --- TWC's cable boxes are different, and don't use the PSIP info, and instead use their own channel numbers(745 for WRGT-HD in this case if I recall correctly).

Anyway --- Pertaining to what you're getting currently -- In case you are intersted/it helps you diagnose what may be going on with the "45.3" you're getting via TWC+your QAM "tuner"/demod currently --- attached farther below are some screenshots from WRGT-DT via OTA this evening (sorry about the poor quality, these were taken with digital camera+resampled to a smaller size to better "fit" as an attachement here) ....

Descriptions of the screenshots and some add'l info pertaining to the descriptions follow :

WRGTdt.jpg - AT top is what I get (45.1+45.2) with PSIP virtual channel remapping ... At bottom is what I get without PSIP virtual channel remapping(30.3+30.4). Oops, sorry I forgot to put up the banner with the EPG info from PSIP EIT except for the first shot of 45.1.

wrgtdtsandpsipinfo.jpg - MPEG2 Transport stream(including PID and TSID info) and PSIP info for 45.1(top) and 45.2(bottom). This is from some diagnostic info present in an undocumented service menu function on my Sony KD34XBR960 HDTV - I like it a little better for a screenshot than using TSreader on a PC. The only thing that perhaps may be a bit unusual I see here is that the PSIP ETT(extended text table) is lit up in Yellow .. Normally, from what I've seen when ETT is properly detected and/or implemented the label for it will "light up" in green instead - although, I don't really think this should cause any problems -- but who knows .... It's not unusual that CVCT (cable virtual channel table) is not detected, as that's a 2nd, seperate VCT broadcasters can send via PSIP for "seperate" use via cable ... TVCT (the "standard" VCT) can be used by both OTA+cable(via qam) as well, and so far the latter is all I've seen "light up" and be detected ..... I dunno, perhaps that might be different however if I were using cable/QAM and or this sets cablecard slot(I sort of doubt it though) ...

Note : The below info from ATSC's white paper on PSIP (a65c) explains what the ETT is, It would not have anything to do with virtual channel remapping "numbers" itself(that's done in VCT), but it is where the info(channel ETM as described below) such as the channel "labels" such as WRGT-DT(for 45.1) and "MY-TV" (on 45.2), or for example the "VC 22.1" and "VC 22.2" labels on WKEF-DT :

"6.6 Extended Text Table (ETT)
The Extended Text Table (ETT) contains Extended Text Message (ETM) streams, which are optional and are used to provide detailed descriptions of virtual channels (channel ETM) and events (event ETM). An ETM is a multiple string data structure (see Section 6.10), and thus, it may represent a description in several different languages (each string corresponding to one language). If necessary, the description may be truncated to fit allocated display space."

Is anyone else have the following PSIP info from WKEF, I've had it for about two weeks:
VC22.1
VC22.2

I used to have the standard WKEF-DT and The Tub(e).

Jydogg,

Yes, WKEF-DT 51 is sending channel ETM via PSIP ETT(as described/defined in more detail from ATSC PSIP white papers near end of my last post) as VC 22.1 and VC 22.2 now ... VC is an abbreviation for virtual channel ... Not sure when they changed it, but If I recall correctly I think I first noticed it about a month or so ago ...

I think they can use channel ETM any way they want to "label" their services ... For example --- Some stations use callsigns or some combination of callsigns and such designations as xxxx-HD(for example to indicate HD programming is available on that service), other stations don't use the callsigns --- such as the labels for the ThinkTV services from WPTD-DT/WPTO-DT or KET1~KET6 from KET(including WCVN-DT in N KY)

I just bought an Envision 32" with a builtin QAM tuner (L32W461). The tuner detects WHIO and the PBS channels, but not WRGT or WKEF. All the channels come in OTA, but then I can't have my cable plugged in. Is there a solution or do I need to get another cable box?

thanks

Dave

Sounds like you do NOT have an antenna hooked up, at least you don't mention one.... If you want the local stations reliably, you'll need one. Otherwise, connect your TW cable to the TV and do a channel scan again. You won't get WDTN though.

I have connected the cable and done multiple channel scans and still no luck on WKEF or WRGT. I do receive them with my antennae plugged in, but then i cant have cable plugged in to get the rest of the channels. I'm wondering if this has something to do with the qam tuner.

edit

I found the problem. I split the cable out of the wall to go to my computer and to my tv. When the cable goes straight to tv, the tuner finds all the HD stations Time Warner provides free and my basic cable. So my new question is: Is there a way to split the signal in two and not lose WKEF and WRGT HD?

thanks,

Dave

I have connected the cable and done multiple channel scans and still no luck on WKEF or WRGT. I do receive them with my antennae plugged in, but then i cant have cable plugged in to get the rest of the channels. I'm wondering if this has something to do with the qam tuner.

edit

I found the problem. I split the cable out of the wall to go to my computer and to my tv. When the cable goes straight to tv, the tuner finds all the HD stations Time Warner provides free and my basic cable. So my new question is: Is there a way to split the signal in two and not lose WKEF and WRGT HD?

thanks,

Dave

Let me know if this continues working for you, because I have been able to pick up WKEF or WRGT for the last month or so... (no splitter except in the box outside)

WKEF. All the channels come in OTA, but then I can't have my cable plugged in.


It certianly would probably be nice in this situation if you had seperate antenna/cable inputs available on the TV ....


I found the problem. I split the cable out of the wall to go to my computer and to my tv. When the cable goes straight to tv, the tuner finds all the HD stations Time Warner provides free and my basic cable. So my new question is: Is there a way to split the signal in two and not lose WKEF and WRGT HD?


I suppose You could try adding a distribution amp in line somewhere before the splitter(or any other splitters) - make sure it's rated for all the frequencies you'll be using - as it's sounds like it's possible that on your drop from the cableco, WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT might be just a bit weaker on their system than the other stations.

A 2 way splitter really doesn't have that much loss however -- only about 3.5db, and I suppose Other issues may be involved. For instance --- one possibility -- such as ingress - interference from RF signals "leaking in" to the cable system on particular frequencies - if so, perhaps in this case the splitter(or coax between PC+splitter or TV and splitter/etc) you're using could use a little better RF shielding, or more isolation between ports on the splitter -- although, really, when it comes to a 2 way splitter, it's almost a "motor oil is motor oil" kind of thing and a $15 splitter really isn't usually "better" than a $5 splitter.

Probably best to start simple without spending any extra $ and perhaps you might want to check some things such as checking your connections/try it with the PC turned off/make sure there's no filters in the line on your drop that might be blocking/attuenating the frequencies WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT are on on TWC's system --- and/or try a different splitter/make sure the one you're using it's rated to pass all the necesary frequencies(although it probably is I'd think -- Most common 2 way splitters are for frequencies up to 860MHZ~1 GHZ) ....

Just some thoughts in case it helps -- BTW, welcome to AVSforum!

It sounds like WDTN-DT is suffering from the same DD5.1 balance issues that WCPO-DT was suffering from before the UM/osu game. The rear speakers are way too strong.

Let me know if this continues working for you, because I have been able to pick up WKEF or WRGT for the last month or so... (no splitter except in the box outside)

I checked last night and WKEF and WRGT were both showing up for me again via QAM on 93-1, -2, -3, and -4. After a quick rescan they showed up on 22-1, -2, and 45-2, -3.

You may want to try putting your splitter back in and see if it works for you now. It could be when you took it out it just happened to come back...

It sounds like WDTN-DT is suffering from the same DD5.1 balance issues that WCPO-DT was suffering from before the UM/osu game. The rear speakers are way too strong.

I thought something seemed odd from my recording of ER last night from WDTN-DT (2.1) ...

I was recording it with 480i Output via S-video+analog audio connections as 16x9 NTSC video("anamorphic 16x9 widescreen basically) to SVHS - in which case the STB downmixes DD 5.1 to 2 channel audio, so it was hard to say what was going on, but I did notice a bit of a "sounds like it's coming through a PVC pipe" quality to it ...

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this but anyway. I have a Hughes HTL-HD receiver that if I watch ABC HD (22-1) it will reset my receiver. It hasn't always been like that and all my other OTA HD channels work fine just ABC. Can anyone provide any help. Thanks.

Stubby,

Welcome to AVSforum.

A few weeks ago, I had experienced something somewhat similar from WKEF-DT with a Zenith HDV420 receiver(the issue was not occuring/not effecting my other receivers at the time) as I explained per my report I sent WKEF/WRGT engineers, and also posted earlier in this thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8867285&&#post8867285

I had heard back from them after I sent that report --- He had said around Nov 7 they had added some new Statistical Multiplexing gear(which allows the 22.1+22.2 multicasting to more effiecently use the available bandwidth). He also said at the time they had received other report(s) of folks with certian receiver models experiencing the issue much as you explained it -- Although(as was the case with my other receivers here) they saw no sign of any problems with the receiver models/etc. they are using to monitor/check out their signal.

Because of that, therefore shortly after my report they had said they had removed the new equipment/settings and returned the settings on their encoder/etc. to their previous state(as it was before anyone reported any issues with it). He also said at that time they were planning on working with the manufacturer to get the issue straightned out so they could (hopefully) add the stat mux at a later time. I've been quite busy lately and haven't talked to them, so I don't know if they've made any progress with that.

Anyway, I haven't had any problems with it(even on the Zenith HDV420 receiver - including currently for the HD football today) except that one occasion as I detailed in the post linked above.

WKEF/WRGT engineers do monitor this thread, but if you haven't already done so you might also want to consider contacting them and reporting the issue with your specific equipment.

In cases such as these apparent "receiver model specific" issues when all their equipment (and other viewers reports) indicate no problems, folks with the equipment effected are one of the few resources available to help them diagnose what may be going on, as they can't purchase and test every receiver model with their signal. (especially as some models are no longer available!)

Thanks for the help Jeff, I sent a message to WKEF. Hopefully I'll get a response I hate not being able to watch games that are broadcast in HD.

Thanks for everyone's input. I'm currently just using antennae into the tv, but I'm going to look into a new splitter eventually. The one I have is from the early 90's and I dont think it's made to handle the digital signal.

thanks again,

Dave

I sent a message to WKEF.

I just sent them a new report as well -- as It's currently happening again this evening(12/4) on (only) my Zenith HDV420 receiver again - First noticed it around 5pm -- Looking at it a little more closely Between 6:30pm and present (6:45), I notice it's doing it about once every 90 seconds, on either 22.1 or 22.2.

short description -- Again, looks like what would happen if I quickly cycled power to the receiver, except the front panel LEDs remain on - obviously can't decode any audio or video during those 1 or 2 seconds it sort of "looks like" the receiver is being reset ...

I have the same issue with LG4200A. Sometimes just locks up.
I wil not power off or on , until I unplug the power cord.
let it completely drain power. Then repower.
I have been experiencing speaker "popping" also.
I believed it was an issue with the unit , not the transnission signal, since I really didn't track whether it was unique to one station.

I will attempt to track if it only occurs with one station.

Jon

FYI, Heard back from WKEF today -- They're working on this occasional "receiver reset-like" problem we've been discussing, but at this point they don't know what may be causing it, or why it's only effecting some receiver models.


Jon,

FWIW, if you're gettting that no matter what station you're watching - it might be getting a little hot, in which case getting a little extra ventilation may help ..

Courtesy of a fellow TV/DTV DXer, here is an update on WLIO-DT 8, Lima, from CE Fred Vobbe as the station gets ready to power up next week. Congrats and best wishes to WLIO-DT with the new and more powerful setup.

Steve
............................................................ ..........................................................

I just wanted to drop you a note and let you know
that
after many years of working to get WLIO-DT channel 8 on the air, the
project
will come to an end next Monday, December 11th. The antenna that I
designed
finally arrived after nearly a year of development, and the transmitter
is in.
The crew arrived today and we're starting to put the antenna up.

Originally WLIO-DT was supposed to be on channel 20 with 50,000 watts
of power.
But I re engineered it for channel 8 with 27,500 watts of power at 455
feet.
We've been operating with an STA since nearly 2002, running 437 watts
at 160
feet. The coverage of the new signal doubles that of our analog station
WLIO
channel 35 which runs 661,000 watts.

In case any TV DXers catch the signal, I will verify any reception
reports
which I can validate through our logs for either the 8.1 or 8.2
transmissions.
Reports can be sent to Frederick Vobbe (VOE' bee), Vice President and
Chief
Operator, WLIO Television, 1424 Rice Avenue, Lima OH 45805. E-mail:
w8hdu @
wlio.com Fax 419-229-2756. I also verify any reports submitted for our
UHF
station, or the UHF radio links in the 450 band.

BTW, I'm going to try to have video and pictures up on the web site for
the
engineering department, http://www.wlio.net in the "video" link, as
soon as
possible. I have some there now.

As of right now (weather permitting), first day on the high power will
be
Monday or Tuesday (Fred Vobbe, WLIO-DT, Dec 5-6, DX LISTENING DIGEST)

I am not a happy camper with WHIO-DT adding a non-existent subchannel. I think the only channels without subchannels are WSTR-DT(My Network) and WBDT-DT(The CW).

I am not a happy camper with WHIO-DT adding a non-existent subchannel. Where did you read this ??

In case you're not registered, here's the story:

WHIO-TV, Time Warner Cable in contract negotiation talks
Both sides say negotiations are going well and programming is expected to continue with no interruptions.

By Katherine Ullmer
Staff Writer

Thursday, December 07, 2006

DAYTON — Time Warner Cable and WHIO-TV, Channel 7, are in negotiations over continuing to carry it as part of the cable company's programming.

An ad Saturday in the Dayton Daily News, placed by Time Warner Cable, said "WHIO may require Time Warner Cable to cease carrying their station on Jan. 1, 2007." That is a required public notice, and does not mean Channel 7 programming will be dropped, Time Warner spokeswoman Karen Baxter said.

"We don't want anyone to panic that we're going to drop WHIO," she said. "That's the furthest thing from our minds. It's just that when we enter that 30-day window (for the end of a contract agreement), we're required (by the Federal Communications Commission) to give notice" of a possible change in programming.

Negotiations at the corporate level are under way and negotiators for Time Warner "are very optimistic there's not going to be any interruption in programming," she said.

The multiyear contract between the television station and Time Warner expires at the end of the year, though there is an allowance for an extension, she said.

"Negotiations have really been going well," said Harry Delaney, vice president and general manager of WHIO-TV.

Negotiations have gone on longer than normal, Delaney said, but he expects a positive outcome. He also thinks WHIO-TV programming will continue to be carried on Time Warner.

(snipped part about UPN/Miami Valley Channel)

If you are registered at DDN:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2006/12/07/ddn120706cable.html

Whats up with WHIO-DT ? I could not get a picture last night to watch King of Queens. I had audio though. Anyone?

Whats up with WHIO-DT ? I could not get a picture last night to watch King of Queens. I had audio though. Anyone?

I had the same thing, both via TWC and OTA

In case you're not registered, here's the story:

If you are registered at DDN:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2006/12/07/ddn120706cable.html

Sounds like it won't be an issue... but if they had to drop WHIO for any length of time it would be hilarious...

Where did you read this ??

WHIO-DT has been sending a "blank" program Stream on VC 7-2 "WHIO-SD" for several days now. That's popped up temporarily a few times before, however -- since they dropped their SD digital multicast of WHIO analog on 7-2 (just as WDTN-DT does currently on 2.2) a couple of years ago, so don't know if it's just a mistake, or a new channel/programming this time.

However, I do notice it does now say in the PSIP EIT info (PSIP program guide info) on 7-2 "new channel coming soon" or something similar ...

If you're not seeing 7-2, You might need to do a channel rescan on your receiver to see it. Some receivers automatically update the info from a station's PSIP stream everytime you tune to a station, some receiver's only update that info when you do a "channel scan".

Courtesy of a fellow TV/DTV DXer, here is an update on WLIO-DT 8, Lima, from CE Fred Vobbe as the station gets ready to power up next week. Congrats and best wishes to WLIO-DT with the new and more powerful setup.


Thanks for passing that along, Steve. Enjoyed the pics/updates on wlio.net , and I'll be looking for them ...

I can remember back in the 80's when I first got a "stereo TV" -- When conditions allowed -- tuning to WLIO for their Stereo Broadcasts, as if I recall correctly, they were one of the first stations in the area to offer stereo audio ...

Yeah, the Dish 622 needs to be told to re-scan for new channels. I count on this forum to know when a re-scan is needed ! :-)

Hall, So I need to scan to add 7-2? Is this the HD channel now?

Aaron

Presumably.... Since it's transmitting a blank 'channel' at the moment, I won't bother re-scanning yet myself.

Any speculation on what they're adding ??

Nitewatchman who or where did you send your report to at WKEF? I've emailed them several times but no response. I'd like to make sure it gets to the right people so they are aware of all the recievers that are having the resetting issue. Thanks.

Stubby,

Either their Asst Director of Engineering, Thom Fowler, or their Chief Engineer, Roland Martel. I believe the rest of their engineering staff is aware of the issue as well. Sorry, I don't feel comfortable passing along private contact info here - As I mentioned, those guys do monitor this thread, so they should see your info here, but FWIW Here's WKEF contact info (including snail mail address, switchboard phone #, and a "comments" submission forum - not sure how well the latter "works" these days) : http://www.daytonsnewssource.com/sections/station/contact.shtml

By the way -- I am curious if it is happening at the same "interval" on your receiver as is the case here on the Zenith... For instance ... I timed it on a couple of different evenings earlier this week, and noticed the issue was occuring exactly every 81 or 82 seconds -- So far, I've only see the issue occur from WKEF-DT in the afternoon and evening hours, the latest I've seen it occur is sometime between 7 and 8pm.

Checking it right now(Saturday afternoon), the issue is not occuring here between 4:30~5pm.

Thanks I'll just wait and hope they see it here in the forums. I timed my resets this morning and it was 200 seconds until it reset. Then at ~ 10:45 it stopped resetting. I'm pretty sure mine has reset in the evening hours, after 8:00pm since I watch a lot of college football and I believe there have been some late games on that I tried to watch in HD to no avail with the reset issue. I'll monitor it a couple times this week and let you know if my reset times vary.

I'm new here to these forums and to HDTV, but I'm getting an HDTV Tuner PCI Card in a little while, and was curious what channels I would get? It has built in QAM tuner (which I'm not totally positive what that is). I'm getting TWC's basic cable as well. I've read a few pages back, and it seems with this set up I'll be able to get the main locals such as cbs, abc and fox in HD, but wdtn (nbc) is one I will not be able to get with QAM. But I will be able to get it if I get an OTA antenna(?) I live in Fairborn next to WSU.

Is there anything else besides Dayton's nbc I won't get with QAM that I would get with OTA?

Thanks.

I'm new here to these forums and to HDTV, but I'm getting an HDTV Tuner PCI Card in a little while, and was curious what channels I would get? It has built in QAM tuner (which I'm not totally positive what that is). I'm getting TWC's basic cable as well. I've read a few pages back, and it seems with this set up I'll be able to get the main locals such as cbs, abc and fox in HD, but wdtn (nbc) is one I will not be able to get with QAM. But I will be able to get it if I get an OTA antenna(?) I live in Fairborn next to WSU.

Is there anything else besides Dayton's nbc I won't get with QAM that I would get with OTA?

Thanks.

You pretty much have it correct. You'll also pick up the CW (I think that's what it's called now, I've never watched the network in my life, nor do I plan to) via OTA.

If you like much on NBC, I'd devote more time to using an antenna with the card vs connecting it to TW's cable. Then again, it's MUCH easier to simply plug the cable in....

Is there anything else besides Dayton's nbc I won't get with QAM that I would get with OTA?


Currently, Besides NBC HD + CW HD Dayton affiliates, there's also the Cincinnati+Columbus stations which may be receiveable OTA from your location with an appropriate antenna setup.

Reception of Cincinnati or Columbus stations can be advantagous for several reasons, besides the addition of MYTV HD .... one recent example -- such as if you wanted to see a 1pm(WRGT-DT Dayton had the Giants game) and 4pm(WXIX-DT Cincinnati had Arizona/Seattle game) NFL FOX HD game Yesterday afternoon.

If you like much on NBC, I'd devote more time to using an antenna with the card vs connecting it to TW's cable. Then again, it's MUCH easier to simply plug the cable in....

Thank's for the suggestion. I might just end up investing in a smaller (medium I guess its called) indoor antenna as well as keep the cable. My roommate will still want the cable, and its only the basic tier anyway.

Currently, Besides NBC HD + CW HD Dayton affiliates, there's also the Cincinnati+Columbus stations which may be receiveable OTA from your location with an appropriate antenna setup.

Reception of Cincinnati or Columbus stations can be advantagous for several reasons, besides the addition of MYTV HD ....

Good to know. I'll do a little more research on antennaweb to see which antenna is good for possibly getting clb or cin stations. BTW, what is MYTV HD?

one recent example -- such as if you wanted to see a 1pm(WRGT-DT Dayton had the Giants game) and 4pm(WXIX-DT Cincinnati had Arizona/Seattle game) NFL FOX HD game Yesterday afternoon.

haha, nice

BTW, what is MYTV HD?


It's a new broadcast network, for as long as it may last as I don't think hardly anyone is watching it .. More specifically, it's called "My Network TV "-- All their Programming(so far all prime time "soap opera's basically) is available in HD from WSTR-DT Cincinnati.

the Dayton Fox affiliate (WRGT) also currently offers MYTV programming on a SD digital multicast Service OTA, I believe it's on TW Digital cable as well - assume you'd get that with your QAM tuner as well, but of course its SD only.

Does anyone else watch "The New Adventures of Old Christine"? Ever since this show has been on, the sound mix has been terrible (me: WHIO-DT, TWC, 8300HD DVR). It's only coming in DD2.0, and the dialog is mixed much lower than the music and the audience. So I turn it up to hear the dialog, but my eardrums nearly rupture during transitions and laughter. I'm 99% sure I watched this live once (not through the DVR, but still through TWC and a CC), and it was the same problem. All other CBS shows are fine for me.

I've assumed all along that this was a problem at the source, owing to the way that the sound is mixed, but I just did a search through all AVS forums and a general Google search, and I can't find anyone else reporting this issue. So I thought I'd check locally to see if anyone else watches this show, and whether you've experienced the same issue. If not, can you tell me what station/equipment you're using?

Phil

I have the same problem with "The Class" (low dialog, HUGE OPENING CREDITS MUSIC, etc) on WKRC-DT. I don't remember this being a problem yesterday with "How I met your Mother." I don't watch "Old Christine" so I can't speak to that show.

I personally don't think this is an affiliate/equipment problem.

Just found this site and checked up on my location in Fairborn. Took me a second to realize i had to check the construction boxes to actually get the local stations to list (abc, nbc, cbs, fox, etc.). Interesting that all their temporary permits are expired last year, no? Sorry if this has been brought up before, I'm new here :p

http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp

There's the link. Wouldn't let me post it yet cause I didn't have 5 posts :D

Lighting Guy, Try here : http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html - Make sure to select "TV query-detailed output+CDBS Links" in the "output-select TV query or TV list" drop down box for the most/detailed info - in addition to links to the applications/etc. they sent FCC, and detailed info on their facilities(directional antenna patterns/etc) you'll also get a link for each station to a contour-based predicted coverage area map(unforutnetly doesn't take terrain into account/isn't based on longely-rice study, however) Search by radius works nicely as well, btw, and gives you detailed distance+bearing info, should you input the lat/long coordinates for your location.

They are all at full power currently, BTW. WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT, both filed for a license to cover in Summer 2005 --- this most likely means they are operating at full power(which they are BTW, according to their engineers) under program test authority with the facilites shown on their construction permit (otherwise they couldn't have filed to "cover" their full power construction permit) but for whatever reasons according to the records currently available it seems the commission has yet to grant those stations "full power" operating permits.

Most of the rest of the digital stations in the area will show up as "licensed", but you'll still find some of the old(expired or not being used) STA's listed here and there as well.

I have the same problem with "The Class" (low dialog, HUGE OPENING CREDITS MUSIC, etc) on WKRC-DT. I don't remember this being a problem yesterday with "How I met your Mother." I don't watch "Old Christine" so I can't speak to that show.

I personally don't think this is an affiliate/equipment problem.



Hmmm, well then what I have to say may make things even more confusing. Last night I was flipping throuch channels and Christine was on WHIO-DT. I experienced the exact symptoms that s1059197 observed. Quiet dialog so you turn the volume up, but then when there is laughter or music it blows you back about ten feet. However, when I flipped to WKRC-DT, also showing Christine, the sound was fine. At the time I experienced the problem I figured WHIO was just having issues with their sound.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe WHIO sends DD 5.1 and WKRC does not.

Anyone having problems with WHIO 07-1 being off air? 12/12/2006 during NCIS 830 or so?

I have been looking at their web site to see if they have an area where they state the current status of their signal and am unable to find one. Does anyone know if there is such a spot? My GF is certain it is because the antennae was moved recently - but all channels come in fine except for WHIO and it stopped in the middle of NCIS tonight...

Anyone having problems with WHIO 07-1 being off air? 12/12/2006 during NCIS 830 or so?

I have been looking at their web site to see if they have an area where they state the current status of their signal and am unable to find one. Does anyone know if there is such a spot? My GF is certain it is because the antennae was moved recently - but all channels come in fine except for WHIO and it stopped in the middle of NCIS tonight...


WHIO-DT definately does appear to be off the air.

WHIO analog is still working fine as of 9:20pm

WHIO-DT definately does appear to be off the air.

WHIO analog is still working fine as of 9:20pm

No 7-1 or 7-2 for me as of 9:25pm.

However, I do not think 7-2 has any programming on it anyway, it's just a placeholder channel currently afaik.

Does anyone else watch "The New Adventures of Old Christine"? Ever since this show has been on, the sound mix has been terrible (me: WHIO
Phil

Just fyi- same issue- same equipment

I thought this was an okay place to post this because it does have to do with local reception. I don't watch a lot of tv, but I love to watch Scrubs on WGN (analog channel 18) at night. This is, of course, the channel with the worst reception, and I want to make sure there isn't anything I can do about it #1, and #2 just want to get some reactions I guess. It is almost unwatchable now on my new HDTV...

This picture actually looks better then my reception, so you see why I'm not amused.

You don't get WGN via over-the-air. Is it always that bad ??

You don't get WGN via over-the-air. Is it always that bad ??

Sorry I know my post wasn't that clear. I'm talking about this is the reception I get from TWC (I have basic cable from them currently). And I'm not home during the day, but when I am home in the evening it is always that bad, yes.

I thought this was an okay place to post this because it does have to do with local reception. I don't watch a lot of tv, but I love to watch Scrubs on WGN (analog channel 18) at night. This is, of course, the channel with the worst reception, and I want to make sure there isn't anything I can do about it #1, and #2 just want to get some reactions I guess. It is almost unwatchable now on my new HDTV...

This picture actually looks better then my reception, so you see why I'm not amused.


Call Time Warner repair. They should fix it (for free). It's probably an issue with your cable runs... what type of cable and how old is it? Older RG-59 should be replaced with RG-6 (thicker, more shielding). Again, Time Warner should do that for free if necessary to fix your issue. I've seen them replace the entire cable run from street to TV in some cases (for free). Not saying your cabling needs to be replaced, but it looks like you're getting interference on channel 18. If it were every channel, signal loss would be a more likely culprit.

WBDT's (Dayton CW) digital channel broadcasts on UHF 18, but cable channels do not line up exactly with UHF channels, so that might not be your issue.

Call Time Warner repair. They should fix it (for free). It's probably an issue with your cable runs... what type of cable and how old is it? Older RG-59 should be replaced with RG-6 (thicker, more shielding). Again, Time Warner should do that for free if necessary to fix your issue. I've seen them replace the entire cable run from street to TV in some cases (for free). Not saying your cabling needs to be replaced, but it looks like you're getting interference on channel 18. If it were every channel, signal loss would be a more likely culprit.

WBDT's (Dayton CW) digital channel broadcasts on UHF 18, but cable channels do not line up exactly with UHF channels, so that might not be your issue.


I actually have no idea what cable runs are from the street, but I live in an apartment, so I don't know how that will effect things. Thanks for you guy's replies, and I probably will give them a call just to see if the ball starts rolling on getting some of this crappy cable fixed.

Just wanted to add my two cents - A while back (maybe nov 7th) I noticed that my TV was having issues with channel 22 - it is an Olevia LT37HVS.. and it is about a year old - so I was thinking - it was going bad - but after reading that others are having the same issue - I am guessing it is related to that as well. I only have problems on 22.1 or 22.2 and it acts like I turn the TV off and on - very frustrating - but if I play with the menu - I can usually get it to stop - but if I do not do anything - it continues to reset over and over.

Whatever they have done, I hope they get it figured out!

That issue is solved. A case of loose wires on one of the splitters :D Looks much better. Well, as good as TW's basic SD cable is around here...

I have a simple question now though. This is a link to my tv:

http://westinghousedigital.com/details.aspx?itemnum=57

I have basic cable from TW, but from what I've been reading they broadcast all the locals QAM "in the clear" except NBC. According to that website above, it says a compatible mode for my tv is clear QAM. SO, should i be able to receive locals in HD (save for nbc)? If so, what do I set the tuner to to do the scan?! (std, irc, etc) I can't believe I didn't see this earlier, I could be watching in HD maybe?!

Thanks for any help.

EDIT: I just thought, is it possible to get qam channels without an atsc tuner? Cause according to these specs this tv only has an ntsc tuner?

...This is a link to my tv:

http://westinghousedigital.com/details.aspx?itemnum=57

... According to that website above, it says a compatible mode for my tv is clear QAM. SO, should i be able to receive locals in HD (save for nbc)? ....I could be watching in HD maybe?!

Thanks for any help.

The way I read those specs, it's indicating nothing under the resolution column for Clear QAM so I doubt you can receive it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the only way I've seen QAM (which is a digital tuner) is when an ATSC tuner is installed. *Edit* Also, your user manual lists the tuner as NTSC, Air and CATV.

I've been looking for a smaller LCD TV that can receive ATSC but it appears that there are none to be found. Pretty hard to believe when even the cheapie SD tube sets have them now.

Paul

WHIO-DT 7-2 now has content as of 3:50pm today. It appears to be called "7 Weather Now" and it's fairly similar to the weather companions on WLWT 5-2 and WCPO 9-2 out of Cincinnati.

Let's hope that 7-2 is an extremely low bitrate.

Let's hope that 7-2 is an extremely low bitrate.


I don't have hard numbers, but from the looks of things it's a bit too high right now.

WHIO-DT 7-2 now has content as of 3:50pm today. It appears to be called "7 Weather Now" and it's fairly similar to the weather companions on WLWT 5-2 and WCPO 9-2 out of Cincinnati. There was something in yesterday's DDN about WHIO having some new weather "thing". I didn't read the article....

Lighting:

I'm in South Dayton. Panny PT-53WXD63 from two years ago. Use ta have a Cablecard and Rakesh.H -- and then TWC decided that they didn't want my extra $12/month for HD by porking up the HD Tier, so I turned them off and didn't look back. Went back to vanilla cable. Here's what I got

91-1 remaps to 7-1
93-3 is Channel 45. Can also be found as Channel 0
93-4 used to be Channel 22. Now it remaps itself to VC22-1 under the Black Family Channel
93-17 used to be The Tube, which was the -2 to Channel VC22, now it remaps to 22-2
93-18 was Channel 26 (?) -- doesn't remap today
108-x remaps to Channel 14
109-15 is Channel 48 from Cinti HD
109-16 is Channel 48 digital from Cinti

I lost 26 in the last couple weeks. I can't remember where the 6 flavors of 16 hang out. I wonder if we'll see 7-2 anytime soon?

What's mind boggling is that while I'm about 3 miles from the Channel 2 tower, I can't get it without major artifacts (I have a Silver Sensor sitting on top of the TV). 5-1 from Cinti, however, comes in almost flawlessly. Strange no?

I'm thinking of a Westy myself, and I'd like to know if it can get the TWC locals.

C'ya
Cran

I can't get it without major artifacts (I have a Silver Sensor sitting on top of the TV). 5-1 from Cinti, however, comes in almost flawlessly. Strange no?


Not strange, really. Reception issues such as multipath(which can be very frequency specific) can be more problematical the closer you are to the towers.

Adding a bit of extra coax and moving your antenna to find a better "sweet spot" for reception(Near a window facing the towers is often a good spot, but not allways) may be benefical.

I'm thinking of a Westy myself, and I'd like to know if it can get the TWC locals.

C'ya
Tom


From what I've been reading on here you can get the major networks to come in QAM "in the clear" with basic cable from TW except for nbc. I don't know if an actual list exists, but if it doesn't I can make it exist in a few weeks when I get my MDP-130.

Does anybody here have any evidence of nbc and TW coming to an agreement and airing nbc-hd QAM in the future?

For both of your comments/questions, search this thread. :) 1450khz as has s(bunch of random numbers ... from Oakwood) have posted the list of QAM channel numbers related to the stations. As for WDTN (NBC) being on TWC, well, it's NEVER been on that I'm aware of and this has been the case for *years*. For years, many of us would contact TWC and/or WDTN and would be told "we're working on it". Clearly they're not working very hard or else they are soooo far apart on agreement that it seems rather hopeless.

Price was the main reason I dropped TWC recently but believe it or not, the lack of WDTN (NBC) was another. Yes, I could get it with my HD receiver, but I couldn't DVR anything.

Evan,
I'm considering purchasing a Channel Master 3671 VHF/UHF high gain antenna and a rotor to pick up HD from Dayton, Columbus and Cincinnati. I live in Enon which is close to Fairborn/Dayton. We are in a small valley. Do you think this is the best equipment to use and do you think I will be able to get a strong signal from those cities? Any suggestions?
Thanks
Telephone Man

Telephone Man,

1st off -- Welcome to AVSforum!

Secondly, were you only asking for a reply from Evan? If not, FWIW -- In short -- Sounds like you have a good plan --- CM3671 w/rotor would seem to be a fine choice to me in your situation, and certianly, is an excellent choice for a Fringe area VHF/UHF combo antenna. although, depending upon what you want, there are certianly other good options as well - such as various models of directional, hi-gain seperate VHF/UHF antennas, some of which could allow slightly better performance, especially on UHF. Also, a Preamp may be a good idea as well for Cincy+Columbus stations. You are probably far enough away from the Dayton towers for preamp "overload" issues to be a problem, especially when antenna is not aimed directly at Dayton towers.

Also perhaps of some concern for your location are some of the current, cincinnati/Columbus area channel assignments(several stations in Columbus+Cincinnati currently transmit on the same channel - a situation which luckily, for the most part will go away after analog shut off)+ the potential co-channel interference issues that may be involved -- But, hopefully, with proper antenna aiming your antenna will be sufficently "directional" so that co-channel signals off the side/back of antenna won't raise the noise level too much.

As for whether or not you'll be able to get a "strong signal" from Cincy/Columbus, it's really hard to say --- much may be depenadent on how severe any terrain shielding issues in the path to the towers may be in your location relating to your receive antenna height - even though Enon would probably be (more or less) "fringe area" for Cincy/Columbus, then again, with a nice, high gain directional outdoor antenna and perhaps preamp reception of Cincy/Columbus stations may turn out to be easier than you might expect, even if you are a bit outside the predicted coverage areas of some of the stations.

I can tell you we've had at least one fellow in the past report decent results from Columbus+Cincinnati from Just East of Fairborn with an Indoor, attic mounted antenna.

Hope this helps, let us know how it goes!

i have been lurking for awhile and have enjoyed the posts

i thought i would throw in my 2 cents on the channel master 3671 antenna. i live up by the lima area and have a 3671 up on a 50 foot tower. it pretty much covers from dayton to toledo to ft wayne and columbus. when they ducting is good, detroit, indy, and cinci come in fine. on great nites, i can even get louisville,ky... cleveland, and up into central michigan. there are better setups with more gain, but overall i am very happy with it.

i am looking for a better dtv tuner for ota to hook up to my old analog tv ... my rca atsc11 took a crap.. any suggestions??

Joe,

Welcome to AVSforum! Good to see some new folks on the thread, especially a Lima area OTA viewer - as believe it or not, I believe you are the first one of those to post here, therefore, your reception report is very much appreciated.

The only "new", standalone OTA, external DTV receiver/STB I'm currently aware of(but hopefully there are others out there) is the Samsung DTB-H260F - I'm not sure if it's sensitivity/performance with weak signals is as good as the ATSC11, but, in any case there's a good thread on it in hardware area of AVSforum, here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9246787#post9246787

You might also want to check out the STB thread in Hardware area, here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=179095

WHIO, or more accurately, Accu-Weather, seems to be having PC troubles today.... Earlier today they had a BSOD full-screen running on ch 7-2. Just a bit ago, in the upper-right window, they had a Linux box going through it's boot process. Interesting setup they've got. Must be some sort of VMWare configuration with Linux running inside Windows... Someone should tell them it might be more reliable the OTHER way around though !

thanks for the links on receivers jeff , i may just end up trying to get the rca serviced.

being out in the country up here in allen county, there is no cable... so it's "ota only" for me. i am always spinning the antenna and checking out what's comin' in. usually i end up watching toledo area stations, but the dayton area comes in strong and i do spend time looking that way. until i get the receiver fixed/replaced i am back to analog only signals... which is still loads of fun, as you can still see stuff that is barely there!

being out in the country up here in allen county, there is no cable


The same is true here, believe it or not, in a rural portion of Butler County ... Only 12~14 miles away from the Dayton antenna farm(even though, oddly enough I'm in Cincinnati market area) ! Which is certianly fine with me ... While most of my area is served by cable, I guess there are a few of us who are "too sparsely located" to be worth it for the cableco ....


which is still loads of fun, as you can still see stuff that is barely there!

It certianly is fun. Recall watching a "crystal clear pic" from toledo a few years ago for the Mud Hens opener, and WTOL 11/WTVG 13 are allways popping in and out of the snow here from about 150 miles, and it doesn't take too much improvment in conditons for them to "stay above" the snow ... The same used to be true for WNWO 24 and WLIO 35, but "noise" from co-channel digital stations in Cincinnati is too strong and "snow those up" quite a bit these days ...

If you go into diagnostics mode you will find Starz! On Demand on channel 1104. Merry Christmas to you all.

yes, the co-channel digital noise can really affect analog reception. now that WLIO-DT has the power cranked up on ch 8, there goes ch8 in grand rapids and indy. when WLIO-DT was running low power, my beam would have enough side rejection to still allow me to watch a solid analog picture when the ducting was good. btw, WAVE, ch 3, in louisville was coming in pretty good for a bit wed nite. not bad for180+ miles away.

Anyone with a bandwidth reader, please check WHIO-DT and report back. I'm watching the Bengals vs. Denver game and there is plenty of breakups that were not there earlier in the season. WHIO needs to get rid of a really pointless subchannel.

^JyDogg,

I "recorded" quite a bit of HD stuff (i.e. captured the program streams) from WHIO-DT back in October, and at that time the video bitrate on 7-1 was maxing out at a little over 18Mb/s.

A few days ago, I just looked at it for a little while during HD CSI:NY, and the highest value I saw was about 14.88Mb/s - Didn't check the game today, though, but I'd hazard a wild a** guess at something around 15~16Mb/s max ...

That's about what it looks like anyway, same old crap with the MPEG2 compression artifacts/too high compression ratio for bandwidth demanding portions of 1080i programming as was the case when they had a SD digital simulcast of the analog station on 7-2, and same old crap as is the case currently with WKRC-DT + Their CW subchannel (although, currently, I believe the situation may "look" just a bit worse from WHIO-DT -- EXCEPT for that annoying colorimetry issue from WKRC-DT (the everpresent slight "greenish" tint during CBS HD in other words) ...

-------------------

P.S. - Apologize for the negative "mood" of the above ... Missed Extra points and interceptions and Chad dropping the ball and such will do that to you - D'oh! As it turns out, they might as well went for 2 ! ;) ... Oh well ..

So, More importantly ....

Merry Christmas Everyone!

I've observed the same thing with WHIO 7.1 . Since they added that weather channel on 7.2, the PQ (of especially sports) on 7.1 has been pixelizing (or microblocking or whatever it's called). WHIO please fix - you looked so well there for awhile!

Hello all! New to the forum and have a couple of questions about local HD and nearby HD channels.

A brief introduction: former broadcast engineer (radio) switching off of the dreaded TW Cable to Direct TV. Putting up an Antenna for networks. Have two HD monitors and am either going to upgrade to newer with built in Tuner or would at least like to buy a tuner for DTV if anyone can recommend a model. I also am looking for suggestions on antenna's to receive Lima and possibly Ft. Wayne, Dayton, etc. channels.

I see that Fred reads and posts here, so the WLIO questions should be a snap for him:

Will CW be added or is it now added to the digital broadcast? I saw you had 8.1 and 8.2 up. Not sure what is on 8.2 or the plans for any additionals. BTW, I can see your tower out my back window so reception of WLIO should not be an issue.

Has anyone in the City of Lima put up an antenna and received any DTV broadcasts from neighboring markets? If so, what are you using hardware wise?

Thanks,
GBatesLima :)

BTW, I can see your tower out my back window so reception of WLIO should not be an issue. You must be inside the city limits... I grew up on Richie Ave, 3-1/2 blocks from WLIO's 'lot'. We played football under the tower, in fact.

Yep, pretty close to Jameson overpass.

Direct TV is scheduled for this morning. The installers for Direct TV could do well if they would sell antenna's and install them at the same time they install the dish. :D

D* does sell antennas that hook on the dish that they can install at the same time they install the dish, but that antenna is really lousy and generally not worth buying.

i saw we got starz on demand, any news on if we will get the starz hd though?

7-1 (WHIO-DT) hasn't thrown the switch as of 1:30pm EST for the West Virgina vs. Georgia Tech game that is in HDTV.

I can get it via Cincy OTAs, so not a biggie.....

Just an FYI.

That is not true, R_Willis. The game started in HD, then dropped out of HD for a few minutes.

I will say, however, that WHIO-DT looks like crap now. They need to cut down on the bandwidth given to 7-2, as there is no reason to have much bandwidth there anyways. Watching NFL and now college football is just ridiculous on channel 7 now.

I agree. Unless it's a perfectly still picture, it's all pixelated and bit-starved. What's the purpose of HD in the first place? Analog looks better than this crap! What the heck is WHIO thinking?

Also agreed.

This is the worst WHIO has looked in quite some time to me! Argh! :(

Pixelated mess.....

Sorry to see that WKEF has dropped the Tube Network on its sub. That was actually the only sub-channel out of any of the local major networks that I enjoyed. Anyone know why they dropped them?

Sorry to see that WKEF has dropped the Tube Network on its sub. That was actually the only sub-channel out of any of the local major networks that I enjoyed. Anyone know why they dropped them?

According to the post at following link in regards to the tube being dropped at WDKY-DT Lexington, KY(Sinclair station), it's probably because of new FCC regs involving EAS alerts and lack of profit/etc. involved along with presumably having to pay the $ to add the equipment needed to provide the EAS alerts on subchannels/etc. I haven't tried looking up those new regs myself, although I have been wondering about The Tube and other SD multicast services in the area and the rules involving multicasting+childrens' programming - Those rules say for each service(subchannel), a certian amount of educational programming has to be aired(but the hours could be added to another service), unless something has changed since I last read about it, that's regardless of the content on the subchannel - i.e. weather channel/etc :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9327008&&#post9327008

Note: Sinclair Stations WDKY-DT (Lexington, KY), WTTE-DT(Columbus - or was it WSYX-DT), and WKEF-DT all carried the Tube ....

Last I checked, "The Tube" is still up on WXIX-DT Cincinnati(19.2 remapped).

Wikipedia has been quickly updated with this: On March 23, 2006, Sinclair Broadcasting announced they would start multicasting The Tube on many of their outlets in the summer of 2006 as well. [2]. That relationship abruptly ended on January 1, 2007. It is unclear if this is a negotiating ploy by Sinclair or a true termination of the contract. In Baltimore, a slide indicating "contractual issues" has replaced The Tube on WNUV-DT2.

[SNIP]

I have been wondering about The Tube and other SD multicast services in the area and the rules involving multicasting+childrens' programming - Those rules say for each service(subchannel), a certian amount of educational programming has to be aired(but the hours could be added to another service), unless something has changed since I last read about it, that's regardless of the content on the subchannel - i.e. weather channel/etc :

[SNIP]



If they show old enough videos, it would qualify in my book as historical education. But then I ain't the FCC.

C'ya
Cran

Can anyone using QAM with Fairborn cable tell me what channel ABC is? I'm having a hell of a time keeping a decent signal OTA, which is kind of weird because I can usually get a decent NBC signal. Forget CBS and Fox though, OTA.... I don't understand, because they are all about 10.x miles away from me...

Watched According To Jim this evening off of the DVR (don't know when the show actually airs) and the pixellation was TERRIBLE. Anyone else seen this from WKEF recently ??

Watched According To Jim this evening off of the DVR (don't know when the show actually airs) and the pixellation was TERRIBLE. Anyone else seen this from WKEF recently ??

I've been noticing a "band" of pixelation across the top third of the screen every once and awhile starting with the Bowl games on Monday? Is this what you are talking about? If not has anyone else seen this? (I've only seen it via TWC, I haven't checked OTA yet)

As far as PQ I thought it was fine last night during the new show The Knights of Prosperity (which if you didn't catch last night, I'd highly recommend, very funny and I think it will continue)

Seems to me it was either the bottom half or third, not the top. It was frequent too. In the half-hour episode, I'd say it happened 6-10 times. Then again, we watched the two episodes back-to-back. Only once was it so bad that it dropped the audio for a fraction of a second.

I don't think it's a signal issue or my receiver would give a "loss of signal" message, but I could be wrong.

Watched According To Jim this evening off of the DVR (don't know when the show actually airs) and the pixellation was TERRIBLE. Anyone else seen this from WKEF recently ??


I have seen it as well, starting with the bowl games on Jan. 1, which also happened to be the same day WKEF stopped broadcasting the Tube. Now instead have the stupid message saying get music on demand with AOL/TWC. Something tells me WKEF did not correctly make the transition.

Does anyone from WKEF monitor this thread ?? I've e-mailed them via their website before and if it got routed to the right people, I don't know. I do know I got NO acknowledgment whatsoever.

I can verify the problem with WKEF is happening OTA as well.

Just for the record, I'm receiving it OTA with a Dish ViP622 receiver. Can't blame TWC for this.... (I can imagine calling them and them telling me "call Time Warner...")

I can't say when it started -- haven't been watching TV too much in the past two weeks -- but let's say a month ago I was NOT seeing this.

The first time I saw the problem was on New Years Day and thought at first it was a reception issue until I noticed it happening from TWC as well.

Glad to see your reports on WKEF. I've been screwing with my antenna aiming all week.

Glad to see your reports on WKEF. I've been screwing with my antenna aiming all week. I joked with my wife and asked her if she had moved the antenna... It's in the attic, where she's NEVER been.

Glad to see your reports on WKEF. I've been screwing with my antenna aiming all week.


Well, at least you didn't resort to pounding the top of your HDTV. DO NOT ADJUST YOUR TELEVISION SET, WKEF is having technical difficulties. I give the over under on solving this problem about 7 weeks.

Interesting post here, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9360154&&#post9360154. What does this do to WHIO's 'new' weather sub-channel ??

Interesting post here, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9360154&&#post9360154. What does this do to WHIO's 'new' weather sub-channel ??


So far, I haven't seen any childrens programming on 7.2. If I am reading the new regulations correctly, WHIO has until the end of the week to show some children's programming on 7.2 (or as terryfoster has pointed out below, offer additional hours of children's programming on 7.1).

See http://www.dwt.com/practc/broadcast/bulletins/10-06_ChildrensProgramming.htm for a summary of the FCC regulations.

Edit: Well, WHIO is apparently showing children's programming on 7.2. Looks like it is here to stay.

If I remember how that regulation was worded, the affiliate could air the hours of children's programming on the main channel that are required for any and all subchannels. So I think you can chalk that one up as Sinclair bull.

See:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7299883&highlight=children#post7299883
Although this seems to reference older rules they decided not to enforce until a revision was made and I haven't seen anything recently.

I haven't watched WHIO-DT for awhile since all their shows have been in reruns for the holidays, so the football game today the first thing I've seen since they added the subchannel. I'll add my voice to everyone else here who says it's a mess of macroblocking. Let's hope they do something to fix this, because it's crap this way.

Phil

I haven't watched WHIO-DT for awhile since all their shows have been in reruns for the holidays, so the football game today the first thing I've seen since they added the subchannel. I'll add my voice to everyone else here who says it's a mess of macroblocking. Let's hope they do something to fix this, because it's crap this way.

Phil

Hmmh, I noticed the game earlier was blotchy from all the compression. I had attributed it to the national CBS feed being compressed.

As of right now, there is nothing on 7.2, yet the basketball game is blotchy for me too.

I watch on a 60" Sony SXRD display.

Back to WFEF and it's poor picture quality recently, my wife was watching one of those Hollywood gossip shows that's on between 7 and 8pm and it had frequent pixelation, even during SD programming ! I wouldn't have thought that non-HD programming would "push" the limits to cause this.... but it did.

I noticed this weekend that TNT-HD and DISC-HD were coming through in the clear again over TWC QAM... Also I was picking up Starz Cinema on either 80-9 or 81-9 (I can't remember for sure which one)

Well TNT and DISC are still there as of tonight, Tuesday. Couldn't find Starz anywhere though.

Well TNT and DISC are still there as of tonight, Tuesday. Couldn't find Starz anywhere though.

It was definately on 80-9, and it was there still on Monday... I'll check again tonight

oops my bad. I sure am getting it, but funny enough its on 80-8. Don't know how I missed it the first time. Do you happen to know what channel it is in TW's lineup so I can see what's coming up next using titantv?

oops my bad. I sure am getting it, but funny enough its on 80-8. Don't know how I missed it the first time. Do you happen to know what channel it is in TW's lineup so I can see what's coming up next using titantv?

I actually get it on 80-8 and 80-9... Looking at TWC website it looks like it's on channel 334...

Great thanks

Anyone got a contact at WKEF. It has not improved at all.... It must be bad when my wife mentions it breaking up ALL THE TIME !

PRESS RELEASE
Contact: Bruce Opperman, Pres/GM WLIO Television
Frederick R. Vobbe, VP/CE WLIO Television
1424 Rice Avenue - Lima OH 45805
419-228-8835 e-mail: fvobbe@wlio.com

On Friday, January 12, 2007, WLIO-DT made another advancement in
television
viewing with the introduction of WLIO's new High Power transmitter.
Since November of 2001, WLIO-DT has operated at 437 watts at 160 feet.
The
new high
power station operates at 27,500 watts at 455 feet from the WLIO tower
located at 1424
Rice Avenue.

"The new station will cover an area from Perrysburg, Ohio, to southern
Miami County,
and from the west side of Fort Wayne, to Marion, Ohio", said Frederick
Vobbe, Chief
Engineer of WLIO. "Viewers within this area will receive WLIO-DT's NBC
programming on channel 8.1, and the CW Network on 8.2."

The transmitted signal may be picked up over the air, without the use
of
cable or satellite
by using a simple VHF style TV antenna connected to a digital TV set.
"Digital set prices are coming down", said Vobbe. "In just five years
we've
seen $8,000
TV sets down below $1,000. The 37-inch HD set I purchased for Christmas
was
only
$960. And there many sets to choose from in the $250 to $700 range."

Vobbe also commented that viewers may be able to pick up digital
transmission using a
converter box, that takes the digital signal and converts it to an
analog
signal that a
conventional TV can receive. According to Vobbe, "Even a converted
digital
signal is
better than a analog signal."

Viewers that wish to receive WLIO's digital via cable will need to
check
with their cable
company to see if they carry WLIO-DT. If they don't, viewers should
encourage their
cable company to carry the signal which would contain both NBC and CW
programming.
Viewers that have satellite systems will have to either get WLIO-DT off
an
antenna, or
check with their satellite provider for the signal. WLIO is presently
talking with several
satellite companies for carriage of their signal.

The digital changeover was originally mandated by Congress, and plans
are to
decommission the analog service by July 1st 2009. Congress may back up
that
date, or if
fewer than 85% of the population can get the digital transmission, WLIO
will have to
keep the analog transmission on Channel 35 operational.
"It's in the best interest of the public to get digital", said Vobbe.
"Just
about every
broadcast station within 100 miles of Lima is now transmitting digital.
And
some, like
WLIO, are transmitting secondary signals."

Secondary signals may be other programs, or services. In mid 2007 WLIO
is
expected to
add WLIO channel 8.3 which will be the new NBC Weather+ network.
Weather+ will
feature 24 hour a day weather forecasts and include the WLIO weather
staff
with details
on the local forecasts. Each digital station may add up to four
subchannels
of programs.
WLIO's digital buildout took over a year to complete at a cost of over
$1-million. The
antenna system was custom built by Electronics Research, Inc. of
southern
Indiana. The
transmitter was manufactured by Axcera Corporation of Pittsburgh, PA.

The transmitter room was built by M&W Construction, with air
conditioning
provided by
R.A. Flynn and Sons, and Sidney Electric performed the electrical work.
WLIO's
technicians installed all the associated equipment for the new station.
A copy of this map is available at www.wlio.net. Mr. Vobbe may be
contacted
at 419- 228-8835, extension 1034, or by e-mail at fvobbe@wlio.com.

"The new station will cover an area from Perrysburg, Ohio, to southern
Miami County,
and from the west side of Fort Wayne, to Marion, Ohio", said Frederick
Vobbe, Chief
Engineer of WLIO. "Viewers within this area will receive WLIO-DT's NBC
programming on channel 8.1, and the CW Network on 8.2."


My wife is very pleased. :D

We are TV shopping this weekend since I have yet to find a decent digital stand alone tuner for under $300. I will just spend the mondey on a new TV.

I am still looking for a tuner for both my cousin and I though. He has a projector and I am currently remodeling a room for one. The home theater folks were selling a $1000 model at last check (some time ago), maybe I will check back with them to see what they have now.

I am also looking for a decently priced OTA tuner, the best I have found is the new Samsung, which is going for $179. It's still more than I had hope to spend.

That Samsung is getting good reviews and did you notice it includes a QAM tuner ?? As it stands currently with TWC, if you have *basic* or limited cable from them, you can connect their feed to this box and get Discovery HD Theatre and TNT-HD as well as your OTA channels.

I'd suggest a used set-top if you want to save the most $$$. A good option is an old DirecTV HD set-top. Make sure it's not a DirecTV "brand" though, but instead is a Samsung, Sony, etc. The D* brand ones, in some cases, require an active subscription. The older ones should not. I can personally vouch that a Samsung SIR-TS160 doesn't need a subscription.

It has not improved at all.... It must be bad when my wife mentions it breaking up ALL THE TIME !

1st off, I should probably report that I haven't noticed any problems with WKEF-DT OTA lately -- with the exception of about a week(or a little longer?) ago one evening when I tuned in around 5~6pm and noticed the "every 80 second receiver-reset like" behavior on Zenith HDV420 was occuring, and I also noticed a couple of weeks ago, one evening they had SD feed instead of HD up during primetime(WCPO-DT had ABC HD at the time).

I haven't been watching much TV lately, though -- I did monitor WKEF-DT for a couple of hours last night beginning around 7:30pm, and didn't notice any problems other than they switched back and forth from HD feed a couple of times during "Grey's anatomy", much as one might expect if they were doing some troubleshooting.

Secondly, I don't know if the following is applicable to the issues you are having with WKEF-DT in any shape or forum, but I came across this post in Indy thread concerning a problem with the Dish 622 receivers properly decoding the stream from a specific station there, and, given the issues you seem to be having seem to be similar --thought should mention it and pass along a link to the post "just in case" it is useful :

AVSforum Member MAX_HD says here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9289991&&#post9289991 ), concerning reception of Indy station WISH-DT --- "but the Dish 622 is a disaster-constant pixellation.Bout ready to pull my hair out on this one."

The response from AVSforum Member and WISH/LIN engineer Tom Weber is here ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9304739&&#post9304739 ) and includes the following :

"I have an inquiry in to Dish Network's "Locals Engineering" department, they'll call me back.

They've called back already. the 622 has a known issue with picking up -some- (lucky us) HD channels via over-the-air. WISH is not the only station, Indy is not the only market affected. Time-to-repair not known. Person I talked to did not know whether enough info had been gathered to know whether the affected stations' equipment, channel assignment, or any other factor is a common thread."



..... Anyone got a contact at WKEF. ...

.... Does anyone from WKEF monitor this thread ?? I've e-mailed them via their website before and if it got routed to the right people, I don't know. I do know I got NO acknowledgment whatsoever ....


Yes, they monitor this thread, probably usually moreso when they make changes. Submitting reports through the website form has allways seemed problematical where getting a response is concerned for some reason. Best I can do concerning passing along contact info for WKEF/WRGT folks is what I posted recently here(in 1st paragraph of post) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9124153&&#post9124153

I'd think Calling WKEF's main switchboard number during "normal business hours" asking to be transferred to engineering would probably be your best bet, but I suppose you could also try the Mr. DTV address here - be sure to be specific with your report+the station involved/etc so your message/report/etc. can be forwarded to the right folks at WKEF/WRGT(note - its possible Some folks at WSYX/WTTE in columbus may also become involved) :

http://www.sbgi.net/business/dtv/

browerjs and BuckNut are seeing pixellation and they have Time Warner. Paul210 has seen it but don't know what equipment he has. I still have my Samsung TS160 I could hook up and see what happens....

Paul210: What receiver do you have ??

I recall many times in the past that you've worked with the local stations on issues and emphasized how they often effect some receivers and not others. As for the 622, I don't know what chipset it uses or if it's common to other brands or not.

Anyway, if the station or the Indy engineers are aware of *some* issue, I guess all we can do is wait... :(

Anyway, if the station or the Indy engineers are aware of *some* issue, I guess all we can do is wait... :(

As I said, I have no idea whether or not the issue in Indy is relevant to your issue. Also, I would point out WISH Indy+WKEF/WRGT have NOTHING to do with each other, they aren't even owned by the same company.

Also didn't realize the other folks who reported issues with them recently were seeing the "pixelization" ALL the time as you seem to be reporting. And, as I said, I was just passing along the info in case it was any use to you in your "troubleshooting efforts" as it seemed similar to what you have been reporting.

Again, IMO the best thing you(or anyone else having the issue) could probably do is call WKEF and report the issue to them/talk to them about it.

add'l update: Oh --- So far, I really can't help as far as ME contacting them about it, as at this point I have nothing to report to them, since so far, for whatever reasons I haven't seen/noticed the issues you've mentioned, and again, nor do I at this point have any useful ideas concerning what may be causing it ....

Looks to me like HD quality for the Game today is much improved from WHIO-DT vs. what has been the case with NFL HD football since they've added 7-2.

Quickly looked at a couple of short snippets of captures of the transport stream, and during those times it looks like bitrates for the HD video peaking as high as 17.5Mb/s+ ---- If that's correct, that's quite impressive with a SD Multicast service running, 384Kb/s DD 5.1 and PSIP+other necessary metadata present ....

Looking at 7.2, it appears to me like they may have added or improved their Statistical Multiplexing capability, as if you notice, at times when the "action" on 7.1 is more "bandwidth demanding", it may be causing digital looking "artifacts" to increase on 7.2 .... its not really distracting or a problem for "weather channel" watching though, IMO ....

Hi, I'm from Springfield. I was wondering whether I would need VHF in a receiver. I've been looking at two antennas: Phillips MANT510 or the Zenith ZHDTV1. The Zenith doesn't have VHF though, so should I go with the Phillips? Are there any other recommended antennas. I already have a built in tuner, so I only need the antenna.

Thanks in advance for your help.

^funkmasta,

1st off welcome to avs.

All current Dayton digital/HD stations are UHF, currently, and at this point it looks like that will be the case in Dayton for the full service stations after analog shut off as well. We don't know much yet about the Dayton area Low power stations+where they may end up on the dial post-analog shut off.

Columbus+Cincinnati do have+(again as it looks currently) will have VHF stations after analog shut off, however. Cincinnati+Columbus stations are probably receivable from Springfield area(maybe moreso one or the other depending upon your exact location), but will probably generally require an outdoor, hi-gain directional receive antenna+rotor(preamp might be a good idea as well) for best results.

Ok, during HD "The Terminal" tonight on WKEF-DT, I am occasionally seeing a few little glitches here and there (this is with Zenith HDV420 decoder, didn't check the other receivers) ...

Specifically :

#1).Occasionally a bit of apparent on screen corruption effecting *only* very small areas of the frame(or "screen") --- on each occasion only lasting a fraction of a second -- It's happened probably 10 or so times that I've noticed so far, and generally during those short "fractions of a second", it effects, oh, as an estimate, about 1/25th~1/35th of the entire "screen area" for lack of a better word becoming "pixelized"(sometimes greenish or black) or "blocky" during those short periods ... The rest of the screen area is fine .. Although, On a couple of occasions that occured, some tearing effecting a slightly larger portion of screen also was apparent ...

#2). Occasionally, very short(as in a SMALL fraction of a second) losses of audio -- I don't think any of these have actually occured to the extent they disrupted any of the dialogue, and I haven't heard it happen for quite a while -- I suspect could involve a syncing issue for the DD 5.1 stream, especially if they are working on things currently .....

------------------------------------------

Is this what you guys are talking about(specifically #1) ? ...

If so, Have you ever seen it happen other than when they are running ABC HD feed? (Note that SD "national" commercials on the net feed are upconverted to 720p at net+sent over the HD feed, the affilate could be running those commericals off the HD or SD feed from net at any given time).

I've had this same problem lately as well and noticed it while watching some of the Terminal. I've got the 622 w/ Dish also.

Right now, 11:40pm, I flipped to 22-1. Seinfeld is on and isn't in HD. Within a minute of changing to it, a character was carrying a plate and there was a "splotch" basically the size of the plate. A short bit later, the entire bottom half of the screen broke up. After that, I saw small spots, often in the area of the "22" bug.

It went to commercial and so far, I've seen no break-ups during them...

What I've seen on prime-time has been HD programming but the breakups are much worse, i.e. taking up more of the screen than 'spots'.

I got confused about the Indy situation. I recall that one of the Dayton stations is affiliated with a station in Indy and thought that's what you were referring to.

browerjs and BuckNut are seeing pixellation and they have Time Warner. Paul210 has seen it but don't know what equipment he has. I still have my Samsung TS160 I could hook up and see what happens....

Paul210: What receiver do you have ??



Hall, I was seeing it on a Panasonic TH-42PX60U TV with a built-in tuner. I have two ota tuners connected to other TVs, a Samsung SIR-T150 and a Zenith like Jeff's, but haven't watched any of the three for the problem recently so I'm probably not much help.

At this point, Sounds like we are probably all seeing the same thing where this WKEF-DT "pixelization" thing is concerned, perhaps with some decoders handling it a bit differently than others ...

Hall,

No problem. LIN owns WDTN (and WISH in Indy among other stations in this region, including WWHO Columbus). Unless something has changed, switching for WDTN-DT (such as from/to NBC HD feed/etc) is usually controlled "remotely" from Indy.

Sinclair owns WKEF, and operates WRGT. They also own or operate several other stations in the area, such as WSTR Cincinnati(and a Dayton LP translator(W66AQ) for WSTR), WTTE/WSYX Columbus and WDKY Lexington, KY.

At this point, Sounds like we are probably all seeing the same thing where this WKEF-DT "pixelization" thing is concerned, perhaps with some decoders handling it a bit differently than others ... Sounds reasonable. Every encoder deals with every little glitch in the stream slightly different, obviously... Now we sit and wait.

Well, I wasn't as impressed with the HD PQ from WHIO-DT during the NE vs SD game today as was the case yesterday ... didn't look at any bitrates today(and didn't do a good comparision with WKRC-DT either), but maybe I was just seeing things, yesterday ...

Hi all... not TOO versed in pulling HD channels without a box or an antenna, but my new TV has a ATSC & QAM tuner... I can pull Fox and ABC (for local channels) via the QAM tuner, but I cannot pull CBS. Now, I have an antenna set up as well (via an a/b switch) and can pull it that way, but I would like to pull it from the QAM tuner.... Any thoughts? I cannot seem to find it on ANY of the channels recently discussed in the forum. Thank you all, in advance, for any assistance...

Tony

Tony,

What's the make and model of your TV?

Paul

Tony,

What's the make and model of your TV?

Paul

It's a Sharp LC-37SH20U. I chose not to get another digital box through TWC - basically b/c I think TW is the devil, so I am using the QAM tuner (I think I am using that term correctly) to pull the HD channels that TWC offers in the clear. Thanks!!!

I've been reading on the Panasonic plasma threads where people are having some issues with the QAM tuner being weak and not picking up anywhere near all of the available clear stations. That's why I asked what TV you were using. I've also read it might have something to do with the quality of the signal that's coming in to your house, but I'm just repeating what I've read elsewhere. Perhaps a call to TWC is in order.

Well, I wasn't as impressed with the HD PQ from WHIO-DT during the NE vs SD game today as was the case yesterday ... didn't look at any bitrates today(and didn't do a good comparision with WKRC-DT either), but maybe I was just seeing things, yesterday ...

I kept flipping back and forth between WHIO and WKRC during the game yesterday. I thought WKRC had the superior picture with less compression artifacts, but they also didn't have DD 5.1. I would be curious to see what the bitrate numbers turn out to be.

I'm new to the HD world. I am using a k-world atsc/qam card in my computer with mythtv under linux. Does anyone know where I could find a listing of "in the clear" channels and numbers for time warner? the software i use to scan only picks up some of the channels, but if i enter them manually, they seem to work. I think I am right at the threshold for locking on to the signals.

I am in Tipp City if it matters...

Also, is Discovery HD offered in the clear?

thanks!

I've been wondering also about what is in the clear for TW (Centerville). IN particular I've been wondering about the analogs 2 - 78 and whether they are being simulcasted in digital in the clear. I haven't found any. I'm using the HDHomeRun tuner in my htpc setup.

I have found the locals, but I'm getting those OTA. Other than that I am getting Discovery HD and TNT HD in the clear. Also there's some Starz movie channel in the clear. And some other station I have no idea what it is.

I'm also getting Answers on demand and a movies on demand preview loop.

Other than that there's nothing I can find. I had high hopes for QAM in the clear. It's been disappointing.

I have found the locals, but I'm getting those OTA. Other than that I am getting Discovery HD and TNT HD in the clear. Also there's some Starz movie channel in the clear. And some other station I have no idea what it is. I'm also getting Answers on demand and a movies on demand preview loop.

Just to be clear, it's the HD locals I was referring to above . And the Starz and unknown channel are SD. On demand channels were also SD. So HD in the clear it's locals, TNT and Discovery.

Does anyone know where I could find a listing of "in the clear" channels and numbers for time warner? Search this thread. User "1450khz", among others, have posted lists more than once.... It might not apply for Tipp City though. If Tipp is unique, well, you'll be the first to post *that* list. :)

IN particular I've been wondering about the analogs 2 - 78 and whether they are being simulcasted in digital in the clear. I've read no reports from anyone that TWC (Dayton) is simulcasting the 2-78 channels digitally yet... I have found the locals, but I'm getting those OTA. Other than that I am getting Discovery HD and TNT HD in the clear. Other than Discovery HD Theatre and TNT-HD, the digital (HD) channels you get from TWC will be fewer in number than you can get OTA. On TWC, you won't get NBC (WDTN), for example.

Also didn't realize the other folks who reported issues with them recently were seeing the "pixelization" ALL the time as you seem to be reporting.

I still see it pretty much everytime I watch WKEF

Well, I wasn't as impressed with the HD PQ from WHIO-DT during the NE vs SD game today as was the case yesterday ... didn't look at any bitrates today(and didn't do a good comparision with WKRC-DT either), but maybe I was just seeing things, yesterday ...

You weren't seeing things. It was bad--lots of macroblocking any time there was fast motion. Which, you know, tends to happen during football games.

Phil

^I meant, per my earlier post on this on Saturday --- I'd thought it looked like they may have made some improvements which resulted in less of what you are calling "macroblocking" for Saturday's game --- but, maybe I was just seeing things on Saturday --- even though I measured bitrates as high as 17.5Mb/s+ for the HD video during brief bandwidth demanding portions --- i.e. "fast action", panning the camera/following players on the field in relatively "close up" shots with the stands in the background/etc, or shots with the fast moving or spinning CBS graphics/etc -- ...

As, just as you are saying, I thought Sunday's game looked as bad again as it has during NFL HD football since they have added the 7.2 multicast .... I didn't do a really good "comparision" with other sources of CBS HD on Sunday, but I did watch some of the game on WKRC-DT as well and(as has pretty much been the case since they added 7.2, with an exception perhaps for Saturday's game) noticed the same thing as Paul mentioned ...

So glad to find this thread.

Just bought my HDTV first Dec 29 (plasma). Get all Dayton stations with very high signal strength (90-100 out of 100).

Notice the pixels breaking up on WKEF occasionally even with high signal strength.

P.Q. is great though on all channels.

One thing I notice on PBS 16-6 is while the P.Q is amazing on stationary scenes any motion shot of faces appear as a smeary, ghost-like trail until the motion stops. Haven't seen this on other channels. Do others notice this.

One thing I notice on PBS 16-6 is while the P.Q is amazing on stationary scenes any motion shot of faces appear as a smeary, ghost-like trail until the motion stops. Haven't seen this on other channels. Do others notice this.

I have noticed this as well. Matter of fact, I was watching "Austin City Limits / James Blunt" last night and saw quite a bit of this... The overall PQ compared to some of the other networks almost makes it worth it though...

One thing I notice on PBS 16-6 is while the P.Q is amazing on stationary scenes any motion shot of faces appear as a smeary, ghost-like trail until the motion stops. Haven't seen this on other channels. Do others notice this.

You see the motion artificating and macroblocking because of the number of subchannels WPTD runs at the same time. The HD channel, 16-6 is starved for bandwidth.

One caveat to Hall's post above. With TWC QAM you actually get two channels that most people do not get OTA from Dayton -- WCET in Cincinnati (PBS) and WPTO from Oxford. The picture quality of WCET is better than WPTD (as a result of fewer subchannels) and, last time I checked, it had 5.1 surround while WPTD did not (great for Soundstage). Plus it lacks the bright PBS logo that has the potential to burn into your screen if you watch a lot of PBS on a plasma like I do. Finally, WCET broadcasts HD for 24 hours, unlike WPTD.

One caveat to Hall's post above. With TWC QAM you actually get two channels that most people do not get OTA from Dayton -- WCET in Cincinnati (PBS) and WPTO from Oxford. A caveat to your caveat.... :) I believe that those channels are only available in certain parts of the Dayton system. It's very odd how it's laid out... People inside the city limits, i.e. former Viacom areas, do NOT get those channels in the normal channel lineup. Are they actually there via QAM ?? That I can't say... Those stations must have made a long-term agreement with with Continental Cable. People in Englewood, for example, get these channels, but people in Dayton don't, so it's not "viewing market" related.

A caveat to your caveat.... :) I believe that those channels are only available in certain parts of the Dayton system. It's very odd how it's laid out... People inside the city limits, i.e. former Viacom areas, do NOT get those channels in the normal channel lineup. Are they actually there via QAM ?? That I can't say... Those stations must have made a long-term agreement with with Continental Cable. People in Englewood, for example, get these channels, but people in Dayton don't, so it's not "viewing market" related.

I'm in Tipp City and I have the WCET 14.x channels via QAM

WKEF-DT pixelization:

Well, FWIW -- sent their engineers a report about it a couple of days ago+a link to this thread in case they haven't checked it recently ....

By all means, in regards to techincal issues or PQ issues --- contact the station+tell them what you see/think, don't expect them to read about it here, or for someone else to do it "for you" ..... If all else fails, send it by snail mail .....

-------------------


you actually get two channels that most people do not get OTA from Dayton -- WCET in Cincinnati (PBS) and WPTO from Oxford.


Both of those stations cover the vast majority of Dayton area with their OTA signals. Generally speaking(but not allways, such as rural distant communties where the nearest TV stations are 90 miles away), if it's a broadcast station on your cable system, you can usually get it OTA fairly easily as well.

Note that OTA reception is often even Possible BEYOND the contours in the maps at below links :

WCET-DT OTA predicted coverage area map :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1134694.html

WPTO-DT OTA predicted coverage area map:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1001587.html

Besides WOSU-DT Columbus, and WIPB-DT Muncie, both of which also may be receivable for some in Dayton area, There is also WCVN-DT (KET/PBS HD), which is probably receivable by some in South Dayton area :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT594281.html



Plus it lacks the bright PBS logo that has the potential to burn into your screen if you watch a lot of PBS on a plasma like I do.


Which perhaps may be one reason why they animate their bugs(on either WPTD-DT or WPTO-DT), and only insert it temporarily, every 10 minutes or so If I recall correctly. CET-HD's much larger(but more "transparent") bug is, however, there all the time ... Currently, KET(nearest station is WCVN-DT, Covington, KY) doesn't insert a bug into HD (although they do key in an hourly ID of their statewide transmitters) ....


Finally, WCET broadcasts HD for 24 hours, unlike WPTD.


Well, WCET-DT usually(but not every night) goes off the air alltogether(I don't know if they feed the cableco's the HD feed 24/7) between about 1am~7am, so they don't "quite" broadcast HD 24 hours a day ....

WPTD-DT broadcasts PBS HD channel 6pm~6am Nightly, and the station is on the air 24/7.

As for PBS HD PQ, IMO, Currently, WCVN-DT probably has the best in the area( note : they transcode PBS HD from 1080i to 720p for broadcast, which is a bit more "multicast friendly" than 1080i ) .....

I see *issues* with all of them, though, and the only time I've really seen it "up to par" was in late 2002 from WCET-DT, when they were giving HD "everything" (no multicasting or datacasting) .... and, at the time there was plenty of bandwidth demanding programming airing on PBS HD feed (Lots of demo flyover shots/etc) to see just how good it looked before, and after they began multicasting in Spring 2003 ....

Now, I don't know if any of the PBS stations in the area send a seperate "higher bandwidth" HD feed to cable, currently. That sort of thing is certianly techincally possible, especially perhaps given the way the PBS HD feed is distributed(by PBS). Perhaps WCET-DT may be the most likely station to do such a thing(if they can get the cableco to allocate the bandwidth for BOTH their HD and all their SD services). After all, they are the only station in the area to regularly shut down their OTA transmitter in the wee hours, and to provide cable only viewers with services such as the "Ohio Channel"(which WPTD-DT/WPTO-DT sends to their OTA viewers, including in Cincinnati area) and "PBS Kids" (which they used to send OTA until PBS changed it to a "cable only" type channel) ....

In any case, what I think is nice about this area+PBS HD currently is :

#1) That we DO get it 24/7(including OTA), --- do however keep in mind much of the programming on PBS HD channel is SD widescreen, upconverted to 1080i at net ....

#2) Although WCET-DT and WPTD-DT usually run the PBS HD channel feed off the bird, WPTO-DT and WCVN-DT (both are HD only during primetime) have their Own "time-shifted" HD programming schedule -- CET has also ran occasional Local HD productions, I think I caught something from ThinkTV in HD(or SD widescreen) once or twice on WPTO-DT as well ...

This is my first post here and after reading through the last few pages about the problems with wkef and wrgt I'm actually a bit relieved. I was about to go beat the guy over the head that told me to buy the antenna I did!

That being said, the signal quality and pixelation was HORRIBLE on 45 last night for American Idol (yeah yeah, I don't want to hear it! lol). On top of that I live almost in direct line of site to Wright Patt's runway. Every time that damned C5 flew by my signal dropped to 1% until it was gone. This has never happened before, and trust me, C5's are a COMMON occurance at my place.

What WRGT problems?


Every time that ****ed C5 flew by my signal dropped to 1% until it was gone.

Probably sounds like dynamic multipath (reception related) issue ... You know the old saying, if it walks like a duck and looks like a duck/etc it probably is a duck .....

finding a good "sweet spot" for aiming/posistioning/etc. of receive antenna(which can in extreme circumstances involve a lot of "trial and error"work) + Antenna with a high degree of directivity can be useful in these circumstances, but there are no guarentees ...


This has never happened before, and trust me, C5's are a COMMON occurance at my place.


Keep in mind, LOTS of factors can be involved with this sort of thing ....

Who knows ... for instance, Maybe that U-bolt clamping the antenna to the mast wasn't quite as tight as you thought+the wind "misaimed" the antenna a bit for you, or maybe a squirrel has been chewing on your coax, or maybe your cat "nudged" your indoor antenna a bit, or maybe one of your neighbors moved their hummer from their "normal" parking spot /etc/etc/etc .....

My wife DVR'd American Idol and we watched it in FF mode, normal play for a bit, then FF again. I never noticed any break-ups so it likely wasn't a problem from the source but possibly related to the airplane(s). Was there a C5 circling last night ?? I get them over my house in SE Dayton (inside city limits) pretty regularly but didn't hear (or feel) any last night.

Yeah, it flew by about 2 or 3 times last night. So far tonight FOX is unwatchable. I have 100% signal strength and then bam nothing at all. The antenna is rigid mounted in my attic and has not budged. It could be the antenna (RCA ANT706) but I don't think so. I'm using a Hughes DirectTV reciever for OTA into an Olevia 332h via component. All I have to say is it really freakin sucks sitting here watching it analog when I have HD available but can't watch because I must not have scracthed my butt the right way tonight.

As of right now I have not heard the plane for over 10 minutes and the show is still unwatchable.

When I mention WRGT problems I mean that since they broadcast from the same place if one's got a problem the other must or am I completely off on that? Side note, no problems what so ever with 22 tonight.

If it matters, I live in Forest Ridge (Huber Heights).

Can someone explain what Dynamic Multipath is? SORRY! lol

Can someone explain what Dynamic Multipath is? SORRY! lol

No need to apologize!

Multipath is just what it sounds like ... multiple "Portions" of the desired signal arrive at the antenna via different signal paths, at slightly different times(thus we can call them multipath "echoes") ... This causes "ghosting" on analog OTA reception .. with digital TV reception, basicially(and without going into too much "technically accurate" mumbo jumbo), if the multipath is "severe enough", any multipath "echoes" the receiver can't correct for are seen as extra noise by the receiver, thus raising the noise level, sometimes so high that there is not enough "good" portion of the signal left that your receiver can decode the datastream .... with digital TV you allways need at least about 16db Signal over noise to be able to perfectly decode the digital data contained within the signal ... More signal than that won't get you a "better" picture ...

One example of a "Static" multipath echo would be from a signal being reflected off a nearby static object -- such as a water tower -- Our DTV receivers are generally better at handling this sort of multipath ....

One example of dynamic multipath would be of a portion of the signal "bouncing" off a nearby flying aircraft ... as the aircraft "moves", the multipath echo(and the exact "timing" concerning when that echo reaches your antenna) changes .... You can sometimes see this on a analog signal as well, it causes sort of "fluttery" looking ghosts .... Or, in other words, the multipath is changing "dynamically" ....

Multipath can often be *very* frequency(channel) specific, and for instance, you might not ever experience a problem with say, WBDT-DT (Dayton CW transmits on channel 18, remaps to 26-1), but you might get a dropout every now and then on WRGT-DT(transmits on channel 30, remaps to 45.x) when a C5 flies over .... Even though both those stations transmit from the Same tower ....

Receive antennas with Good directivity can help, because, in addition to providing more signal gain in the direction they are aimed, they can also effectively "reject" a good amount of multipath(or interference) coming from directions other than which they are aimed, or, in some cases you can aim them at a particular "source" of a signal reflection (such as say a water tower), and reject portions of the signal coming in from other signal paths (believe it or not, there are actually situations when that can be a "good" thing !) ...

Also, getting the antenna outdoors can help, as everything "near" the antenna becomes connected to it, or in other words, becomes, effectively, a part of the antenna ... Attics for instance ... Multipath nightmares .... As someone here once said, just hang a lightbulb in an attic and look at all the "shadowy" areas ... Radio waves and light waves (or the photons involved for that matter) are pretty much the same thing, just a different wavelength/frequency involved ....

Much of the work that has went into digital receiver design the past several years for the DTV broadcast system we use in the U.S. has been to improve their multipath handling capability, but, when problems arise --- there's probably no substitute for finding a nice "sweet spot" for the antenna(problem is, a sweet spot for one station might not be the same spot for another station - it does help that the Dayton station's transmitters are pretty much co-located), nor is there any substitue for good, conventional directional antenna designs, either ....

Hope this helps ... Chances are good it might not take too much effort to improve your reception ....

When I mention WRGT problems I mean that since they broadcast from the same place if one's got a problem the other must or am I completely off on that?

Yes, you're off on that .... ... and no, --- "I'm not being rude ;-) -- Man, was Paula right when she said there were some troubled folks at the auditions .... Yikes ....

Anyhow -- for the most part Completely different equipment is used for each station ...

So far tonight FOX is unwatchable. I have 100% signal strength and then bam nothing at all. The antenna is rigid mounted in my attic and has not budged. It could be the antenna (RCA ANT706) but I don't think so.

Probably the most likely causes of such symptoms(bouncing around signal quality reading/dropouts) --- could be #1), multipath, or, #2). believe it or not, could be TOO MUCH signal --- too much signal can overload the front end of your receiver and cause that sort of symptoms ... especially perhaps somewhat likely from your distance If the antenna is amplfied(and it looks like it is/might be according to what it says at link below about the "10db power injector" ), and, if I recall correctly, seems like I may recall hearing some reports of those Hughes units perhaps being a bit "sensitive" in that regard ...

although, I'd think generally "overload" issues probably shouldn't be as much of an issue with indoor antennas, even at your distance(which is fairly close), due to the additional attenuation involved by having antenna indoors, and, #1 probably seems more likely since you've reported receiving WRGT-DT fine on previous occasions ....

If it's #2 however , you might be able to add extra attenuation in your feedline(such as adding splitters) and find out something ... You could also try turning the amp off if that's possible ... although, if the amplfier is inside the antenna itself rather than as a "in-line" amp, you may not have that option while still having the antenna work at least as good as a paper clip, as some of those antennas don't really "work" if the amp is unpowered -- in which case the signals passing through the unpowered circuitry in the amp are attenuated GREATLY, much much moreso than if there were no amp in it at all ....

So, as you can tell, I Looked up your antenna (here) :

http://www.rca.com/product/viewdetail/0,2588,PI700817-CI210,00.html

All I can say is, it looks like some sort of stick or "straight boomerang thingie", not an antenna, and you know what they say about antennas that don't actually *look* like antennas ( see 1st section here : http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennatypes/antennatypes.html ) ....

But, I can't seem to find any real data, or reports on it's performance, so I suppose I'm just speculating more than anything else ..... My WAG would be however that This ~$4 UHF folded dipole antenna(in the shape of a "bowtie") at radio shack would probably be at least as good, or perhaps even a better antenna for Dayton Digital TV (all UHF) reception :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&cp=&pg=3&sr=1&origkw=antenna&kw=antenna&parentPage=search

But, since you're hiding it "up in the attic" anyway, why not get something a little better for $15~25 or so ? For Dayton digital reception, for instance This (RS U-75R - This is a Yagi+Corner Reflector design) would probably be a good choice :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=&sr=1&origkw=antenna&kw=antenna&parentPage=search

Or this : (The venearble RS "double bow tie", now otherwise called "UHF Dual HDTV antenna" or "15-624") :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103058&cp=&pg=2&sr=1&origkw=antenna&kw=antenna&parentPage=search

Another decent choice might be a Silver sensor, sorry, I don't have a link handy to that one currently ...


All I have to say is it really freakin sucks sitting here watching it analog when I have HD available but can't watch because I must not have scracthed my butt the right way tonight.


Believe it or not, there can be a little more "science" involved with it than that ;)

You can read about/find some good comparisions concerning actual performance data of some of the antennas I mentioned above here:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Probably more than you wanted to know, but there you go ...

No, not at all. Thank you very much. It's nice to see someone actually take the time to thoroughly answer a noob's question rather than getting all pissy and telling them to search, like what happens on the local Volkswagen site I run.

Good to see that the $70 antenna I bought is garbage! Good news is I've only had it 2-3 weeks, so I should be able to return it no problem (got it from Meijer). I messed around with it again last night and pointed it directly in the direction antennaweb said to aim it and I got 5-10% signal on 2,7,26, 50% on 22, and 100% on 45. 16 wouldn't come in at all. ARGHH!! Ya know I'm lucky enough to live on a high spot and if I were to stand on my roof, I could probably see the freakin towers these guys all broadcast from! lol But I won't because I'm pertrified of heights. Kinda ticks me off that I'm having this much trouble.

I may stop by the shack on my lunch hour to pick up that yagi corner one you posted. It says outdoor, can I put it in my attic due to the previously mentioned fear of heights? I tell ya, I'm more than ready to stop screwing with antenna's!

FWIW, I used the bow-tie antenna Nitewatchman mentioned above by hanging it in a front window that faces west towards the towers. It worked fine considering it cost $3.99 or $4.99. Then again, I'm 5-6 miles away from those towers.....

In general, when Walmart, Meijer, Best Buy, etc, etc have these "HDTV" antennas prominently displayed in the electronics section and they're "cool" looking compared to a regular outdoor antenna, I can see why so many people take them home. I'll bet these stores get a LOT of returns on them too.

When you go to Radio Shack, look at their model U-75R (part no 15-2160). I'm using that in my attic and get excellent reception from all of the Dayton stations. If it were outdoor, I suspect I could pick up Cincinnati stations with it and I might give it a try someday... Note that it's almost 1/3 the price of your Meijer antenna.

I'm 10 miles away from all the towers... I do have a bowtie at home, maybe I'll give the old girl a shot before I blow $25 on the other one (U-75R, which is what I was going to buy). This of course would make the Mrs. very happy!

I really appreciate the help here guys. I've read so much from so many places and managed to get myself more confused than eve. So it's nice to talk to people who live in the same area and actually know what works and what doesn't. If this stuff all works out and Meijer accepts the return on my other Antenna, a round of beers is on me. :)

I messed around with it again last night and pointed it directly in the direction antennaweb said to aim it and I got 5-10% signal on 2,7,26, 50% on 22, and 100% on 45.


Do keep in mind (mostly because of that "multipath" thing) it doesn't allways work out that aiming the antenna directly at the towers is best ...

Also, concerning where you "put" the antenna in the attic(or whereever) ... There can be "hot spots" and "cold spots", everywhere --- That's sometimes even true outdoors as well, but usually becomes *much* more significant when you have the antenna indoors+being "connected"/effected by everything around it .... A foot or two left or right, or back or forth/etc. can make a BIG difference ... You can probably see this directly If you hook up the bowtie somewhere near the TV and move it to different spots and see how the reception works out - As hall experienced --- near a window facing the towers is often a good spot --- (what's nice about those is you can even "hang them" with a bit of twist tie just about anywhere) --

May sound strange, but really, when working with the antenna in the attic, it can work great to haul up your receiver+a small TV in order to "optimize" the placement/aiming of the antenna for all the desired stations .... Just keep in mind, again that *everything* near the antenna "effects" the reception -- Including YOU ....

I'm 10 miles away from all the towers... I do have a bowtie at home, maybe I'll give the old girl a shot before I blow $25 on the other one (U-75R, which is what I was going to buy). This of course would make the Mrs. very happy!

I really appreciate the help here guys. I've read so much from so many places and managed to get myself more confused than eve. So it's nice to talk to people who live in the same area and actually know what works and what doesn't. If this stuff all works out and Meijer accepts the return on my other Antenna, a round of beers is on me. :)

I'm about 10 miles away from the Dayton Towers in Fairborn, and I'll tell you that I have to use a 10db amplified antenna to get anything constantly. I have to say first that I didn't try much with an un-amplified antenna before going to this 10db one, but I get around 60% reception of WDTN constantly. Other channels are iffy and I usually have to move the antenna some, suggesting I have a bit of multipath since the towers are all in the same direction.

This is just my findings; since you obviously don't live in the same place, might be different for you. BTW my antenna is an RCA one from meijer. The 301 I think. Cost about $25.

Well, so far I am happy to report that the free rinky dink bowtie antenna that had become one of my 2 yeard old daughter's toys is pulling in all of the local channels better than that $70 heap of junk ever did. I have 100% signal across the board with no signs of drop outs and even managed to wrangle in a few extra stations I never got before. 64.1 and a bunch of religious channels on 43.1-5. I can only imagine if I had gotten one of those nice yagi's that are supposed to pick up stuff from 75 miles away! Thanks so much everyone! You guys just saved me $70!!! If we ever meet up, I'll buy ya a beer/soda (yes, I say soda damnit!) or other beverage of your choice. :)

Now my good friend Mr. C5 has not paid a visit yet this evening, but last night on fox any time a car drove by I'd get signal degradation. So far so good and I really have a good feeling about it this time.

Well, so far I am happy to report thay the free rinky dink bowtie antenna that had become one of my 2 yeard old daughter's toys is pulling in all of the local channels better than that $70 heap of junk ever did. I have 100% signal across the board with no signs of drop outs and even managed to wrangle in a few extra stations I never got before. Amazing, ain't it ?? I've tried to explain this to people at work and knowing where many live, I tell them about my $24 Radio Shack antenna or even about the $4 bow-tie antenna and that it picks up "HDTV". They don't believe me 'cause 20 minutes later they're calling me to their office to ask me about a similar antenna to the one you bought at Meijer. In fact, a co-worker (who doesn't have HD nor an antenna) was "recommending" a $130-140 antenna to another co-worker. I just thought "let me buy and install this $24 antenna from RS and you pay me the difference between it and the $130 one".

Yes. Again, thanks for the direction. Would have NEVER thought to stick that bowtie up in my attic!

Anyways, the wife and I were watching friends on 64.1 which I discovered is the closest Cincy channel to Dayton (43 miles from my house), so maybe a bit larger of an antenna and I can actually watch TV on CBS instead of local sports that channel 7 seems to think everyone want's to watch instead of prime time TV. Talk about frustrating!

The C5 did not make an appearance tonight, but I think I may be good to go. :)

Hey all, I seem to be having problems with my setup. I have a DTV receiver and an antenna in my attic right now. I can see the WLIO tower from my house and am receiving 95-100% signal all of the time.
The problem is, I have no audio on 8.2 (CW). I am also receiving 27.1-27.4 without problems, only 8.2 is missing audio.
When I call the station, they tell me they are transmitting audio and tell me to check my setup. Of course, these are just board ops and not engineers, but they are trying their best to guide me.
Any suggestions on things I can do to resolve this issue? I have tried re-scanning for channels twice now, same result.

Thanks in advance,
GBatesLima

WKEF Engineers: If you're reading this, do you use 'exciter' model Axcera DT2B with firmware version 4.25a ?? If so, you might want to read these:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9511217&&#post9511217

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9522009&&#post9522009

Hello all - newbie here (sorry) with a question. I put up a U75R in my attic over the weekend and am getting great results except for intermittent dropouts with NBC 2-1. I'm getting 95-100% signal strength on all the Dayton locals, even on 2-1 (most of the time). But I've noticed several times already that 2-1 will go to "no signal" for 5 minutes at a time. But then, later on in the evening, it will be back to 95-100%.

Why would it only be NBC doing this? Like I said before, all the others are great-all the time. Before I put up the U75R in the attic, I had a RCA amplified antenna (not sure of the model) sitting beside the TV, and NBC was one of the better signals I was getting (but I had numerous dropouts on 22-1 and 26-1, so I upgraded the antenna setup).

Does anybody have any ideas to clear up 2-1? I tried moving the antenna slightly yesterday, but I still had one of my "searching for signal" dropouts last night. This morning, 2-1 was back at 100% signal.

I have D* with a HR20. I'm in Union, approximately 12 miles from the towers. Thanks for any help you can give.

I suspect your attic will be to blame..... Can you try it outside of the attic, even inside the house pointed out a window for an evening ??

I was able to use my attic but had to 'point' through wood and shingles vs wood and aluminum siding. I'm in SE Dayton though, less than 6 miles from the towers. I'm so close that comparisons with my setup aren't usually fair to others.

I tried it just pointing out a window before I took it up into the attic; was getting perect signals on all the locals. But I tried it for only an hour or so before moving it to the attic. I had 2-1 on last night starting about 7pm - didn't have any problems with the signal until shortly after the State of the Union Address came on...then it lost the signal completely for about 5 minutes. All the other locals were still showing 100% signal strength. I'm frustrated (and my wife just snickers at me)!

I guess maybe I'll just hook up my little RCA amplified antenna when I want to watch 2-1.

Anyway, thanks for your response.

I dont know if this is related to the problems with WKEF or not, but for about the last month I have been having audio drop outs on WRGT (Fox45). This is extremely frustrating during 24! :)

I am using a HD Tivo from DirecTV with a Mistu 65732. Audio will drop out for 4-5 seconds while the picture will be fine. The screen will freeze for a second, then the audio starts back up. Its just like someone pressed the mute button.

Did some testing and hooked a 2nd antenna up straight to the Mitsu. No drop outs!
Any idea if this is a HD Tivo issue or a WRGT issue? I would think that if it was a HD Tivo issue it would be on all channels, and if it was a WRGT issue, the Mistu would have the same problem.

Thanks in advance for your help?

P.S. Any word on when we will get MPEG4 from D* here?

I would think that if it was a HD Tivo issue it would be on all channels, and if it was a WRGT issue, the Mistu would have the same problem.


difficult to say .... There can be "bugs" which can become apparent involving firmware/software of certian equipment used at the station or network (different stations/different networks/etc with different equipment) AND/OR involving the chipset/firmware/etc. at the receiver end which can occur and effect some receivers but not others ...

As you've already realized, Finding out what's actually going on in those sorts of cases can be a real PITA for anyone who might be involved ... viewers with the effected hardware, engineers/etc ....

You might want to see if you can find any reports from others, especially with the same hardware as you are using(if it isn't happening for other folks with different hardware) that's having the same issue, including from other Fox affiliates ...

Keep in mind, however --- FOX uses a "splicer" system to distirbute HD, The HD Stream is encoded as "ATSC compliant" at the Network level and doesn't Need to be decoded/reencoded at the affiliate as is the case with ABC/CBS/NBC currently(Don't know about CW or MYTV, but PBS Does something a little more similar to what Fox does, although, unlike is the case with Fox, in most cases the PBS HD is "reencoded" so to speak at the local station to "fit" what they are doing with multicasting/etc) ....

Anyway --- The Fox "HD Splicer" effectively bypasses the local encoder(for the video AND the audio - the local affiliate doesn't have to have any special equipment to provide DD 5.1 audio, for example, as it's already taken care of by fox) at the affiliate during Fox programming, and probably, in most(but not *all*) cases(but ONLY during FOX programming) takes most equipment(other than involving RF transmission problems and the exciter/transmitter/Antenna) at the local affiliate "out of the loop" concerning the possibility of equipment at the local station causing such issues .... Probably A *really* good test to see if that's true in this case would be to aim your antenna at Cincinnati and see if the same thing happens "simultanously" from WXIX-DT (Fox HD Cincy) ....

Of course, it's likely possible for Fox stations to do something "different" and do a decode/recode process for the FOX HD, anyway ... I don't know, but I don't think WRGT-DT, or any other station in this area is doing that .... Only one I know of I've heard a report about that that might(and likely is) be doing that is a very small market station in Texas which recently figured out a way to multicast 2 HD streams(one being Fox, I think the other being CBS) and 1 SD stream ... I'd probably hate to see what that looks like, though ....

For folks who have asked for contact info from WRGT/WKEF .... Here's something I just came across that might be useful ....

At following link, Where it says "We’re interested in hearing from you and what questions you may have. Please click here to submit any digital issues you would like us to address." ......

The "click here" currently apparently contains an email address for WKEF/WRGT's Chief engineer .... ... I haven't tried, but it looks like they have changed the domain name from the email address I'd previously used for him - maybe that's why I haven't gotten a response from the last email I sent him+ thier Asst DOE a bit over a week ago, even though it didn't 'bounce' back .... :

http://www.daytonsnewssource.com/mytv/

-----------

Oh, BTW, a little "history" ..... regarding some of the other info on that page ..... I think most folks consider The DTV transistion actually "beginning" as part of legislation enacted back in 1996 - There were a couple of experimental stations on air as early as 1996, but it wasn't until 1998 when the first "pioneer" digital stations came on air. Including a few In Cincinnati+Columbus - If I recall correctly, WLWT-DT Cincy was 1st digital on air in Ohio in feb 98, putting a test signal up on the 50th aniversary of their analog station's sign on, WBNS-DT was next, or maybe it was the other way around ... Of course, I don't think any consumers actually had DTV receivers in Spring 1998 ..... WHIO-DT was first in Dayton in Fall 2001, WKEF-DT was next in Dayton, on air with HD Olympics coverage from SLC and NBC/HDnet in feb 2002 ... The rest of the Dayton digitals signed on between then and mid 2003 ....

Originally, it was "expected" analog shut off would occur by December 2006, but basically, with the caveat being "or when 85% can receive the digital signals" .... For reasons that are probably obvious, That has since changed to a Feburary 17, 2009 HARD analog shut off date ..... well, for full service stations, not necessarily low power analogs and unless it gets changed again ;) ...

Interesting that they almost "hide" the information about their digital broadcasting on the MyTV page. I've NEVER watched anything on their MyTV channel and just luckily stumbled across the page with that information. Seems to me that the "Station Info" link would be more appropriate.... And Greg Dixon is a weather guy, yet he "writes" the page.

Finally, putting people's e-mail addresses on web pages is so out-of-date. I'm sure this "martel" person is overwhelmed with spam. I suspect that's not the person's real or primary e-mail address. Along the same lines, and completely off-topic here, if you ever want to send an e-mail to a Dayton Daily News writer, don't bother with the e-mail address given in the story. They don't use 'daytondailynews.com' for the e-mail domain...

If there is anyone in the Lima area with a new H20 receiver (less than a month or two old) from DTV I would like to try a little troubleshooting or at least verify audio on 8.2.

Any help would be appreciated. Just trying to figure out what I have set up wrong...LOL.

Thanks!

As for WKEF/WRGT email address, all I will say is, I happened to be "tuned" to 45.2 while monitoring/checking the Dayton DTV stations Yesterday evening and there was a spot running with Greg Dixon mentioning where to "click" on the website for DTV/MyTV info, and thought I'd pass along what I found there ....

If there is anyone in the Lima area with a new H20 receiver (less than a month or two old) from DTV I would like to try a little troubleshooting or at least verify audio on 8.2.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks!

Well, I'm not in Lima area, so I hope you don't mind some comments, anyway ....

First, a question ... So, is WLIO-DT sending NBC HD on 8.1, and multicasting two SD subchannels(CW and Weather I believe you, or the other fairly recent poster from Lima had said), or is it SD on 8.1 as well? Thought I'd read on their website some time ago they were providing NBC HD(which is very impressive for a station in that small of a market, IMO), but I don't think we have had anyone able to actually confirm that here ....

Also, I am too far away to achieve a lock on WLIO-DT without some help from enhanced propagation conditions(I have seen WBGU-DT several times via DX, and noticed that, at least the last time I saw them, they provide PBS HD, at least during some portion of broadcast day), so I probably can't help much, but I feel compelled to attempt to provide some sort of response to your post here ... If the issue is still occuring by the time I do receive them via a little "Dx", I am certianly interested to see if it effects any of my receivers, or if I notice anything odd that might relate to the problem your getting ...

Also, I should mention that So far(and I've been here at AVS since 2001), I think there's only been 2 other folks who have posted on this thread in Lima area, and honestly, I think it's been a long time since anyone even in the Dayton area North of I-70 has posted, and there may have been only 1 or two of those ... Hang in there though, hopefully there will soon be more and you'll be able to receive more input ... And after all, WLIO's signal should reach to points not too far North of I-70 ...

[updated] removed paragraph concerning contacting their CE/etc, as I have since seen your post in the D* receiver thread indicating you have talked to one of ther engineer's etc ...


Just trying to figure out what I have set up wrong...LOL.


[update:] removed this paragraph after seeing in your post in the D* receiver thread that you'd already confirmed folks with other receiver models apparently aren't having the issue, although that doesn't necessarily mean there are *no* other receiver models that have an issue with it ...

At this point, I can't imagine what you might have "set up wrong", if for instance, the audio is working fine for 8-1, and WBGU-DT's services (the 27.x "channels") ... If all those are working and assuming you can, for instance properly decode and output to your audio equipment either(or both, depending upon what the station is sending) DD 2.0 or DD 5.1 audio, I can't see at this point how it would be a problem related to how you might have things "set up" ...

Only thing that comes to mind at all for me at this point is that I know a station can send *two* seperate audio streams for Each programming stream or, in other words subchannel - 8.1, 8.2 etc ... For instance, although, utilization of both audio streams is not a common thing these days, you could for instance have English+Spanish language audio tracks on each of those "subchannels" ...

Now, for a short period soon after they came on the air, I can recall having an issue with this and one station, where I would have to manually "switch" to the "2nd" audio stream every time I tuned to that station to hear any audio from that station, as they were sending a single audio stream where my receiver expected the "2nd" stream to be, while there was nothing on the "1st" stream, so to speak ... It didn't take long for them to get that fixed .... With this particular receiver, it has a button on the remote labeled "audio", and by pressing that it "switches" between the "possible" audio streams if there are two "placeholders" so to speak there for each one(sometimes there isn't and nothing happens) ...

Also, seem to recall some folks with certian receiver models having a similar problem with this involving another station, if I recall correctly, those folks did not have any luck with any adjustments on their end, and it had to be "fixed" on the station end ...

Now, the feature to "access" or switch between the 2 possible different audio streams may be buried somewhere in a menu on your receiver+not well documented, or, I suppose it may not even be there at all, at least perhaps unless it finds+knows there are two audio streams active from whatever subchannel you're "tuned to" at the time ...

I'm thinking it's *possible* for instance(but not necessarily likely) some receivers may be able to automatically "switch" or "default" to say stream #2 if nothing is "decodable" or present from audio stream #1, or vice versa, and some receivers can't ... Or something along those lines ...

That probably wasnt of much help, and much of it may not even be relevant to the issue you're having but we do try!

... or at least verify audio on 8.2.


Oh ... One other thing I thought about ... I noticed so far, everyone has reffered to WLIO-DT as "appearing" on their receiver on channel 8 .... Which is no doubt, the VHF RF channel they transmit on ...

HOWEVER, I know it seems a little "odd", but FCC rules actually require digital stations with analog counterparts to send PSIP data, which includes "virtual channel remapping" info so that the major channel # is the same # as the analog channel # ... For instance, WBGU analog transmits on analog 27, and WBGU-DT(digital) transmits on channel 56, but virtual channel info is required to be sent via the stations PSIP streeam (specifically in the VCT or "virtual channel table) ... so that the station "remaps", and appears on most receivers on channel 27.x ...

So, WLIO-DT should really be sending the PSIP info as well(unless they've gotten some sort of special waiver from FCC), and should show up on most receivers as "35.x" ... 35 of course being their analog channel # ... Personally, I'd prefer it the way WLIO-DT is apparently currently doing it ...

After the analog stations shut off, odd as it may seem, stations are required to continue using their current analog channel # for the major channel #, regardless of where they actually *end up* on the dial .. From what I can tell, I believe it's this way mostly because groups such as NAB+MSTV "told" FCC that's what is best to reduce "viewer confusion" .... but personally, I believe it more has to do with them wanting to keep their existing channel branding(for news sets/logos/etc) ...

FCC began requiring full PSIP complaiance per A65/B standard(including channel mapping as mentioned above, as well as providing "fully populated" programming guide info for the EIT tables out 12 Hours) from digital stations as of January 2005 -- You might want to ask their CE/engineers about it the next time you talk to them ....(not sure if that's something the CE may want to hear about right when he gets back from vacation, However!)

ANYhoo ... Why I'm going into all that is, I wonder if it's possible the apparent lack of PSIP info from them may also be related to your *missing* audio? I wouldn't think so, since the audio on 8.1 is working and you're decoding the video on 8.2, and, one would think your receiver should still be able to find the audio stream/PID's without it, but who knows, stranger things certianly have happened .... If it is possible that's the case, perhaps it's possible you might be able to dig up some info on that D* receiver thread, or reports from others who've had the same issue occuring(but from different stations in different areas/etc ...

While it's true that all receivers certianly *should* be able to operate properly without any sort of PSIP info present, unfortunetly, It's certianly been the case that we've seen some receiver models don't behave all that well when 100% "proper" PSIP data isn't sent by the station, in some cases, certian receivers can't even decode video or audio if there is no, or improper PSIP present ... Also In some cases, there can also be issues with certian sat receivers, stations not sending PSIP + the EPG info received via the birds ... Also, in addition to "channel remapping", PSIP also has OTA EPG info, among other various features ...

Sorry for the double "long" posts, again, good chance that none of the above is applicable to your problem, but then again, it's not out of the realm of possibilities, either, and when it comes to the New world of DTV/HD, Murphy's law is certianly in "full effect" ...

I was on the phone earlier this afternoon with WKEF/WRGT Engineer. For the short version for the folks who don't have time to read all of the below - I'll attempt to make the "quick and dirty" version of this post in the first three(short) paragraphs, then you can read on for more details if you wish.

First off, I want to emphacize they have been, and *are* working on the "pixelization", freezing and/or "receiver rebooting" issues with WKEF-DT some folks have experienced and reported about here, and, that they've just got in some new receivers to help them monitor the signal, which for the first time, is showing them some sort of indication that these issues are occuring(their older samsung receivers weren't) ..

I asked if he would like me to pass anything along to the forum.

The first thing he said in reply to that was, he wanted me to pass along how much he/they appreciate the feedback+info concerning issues some folks are having with their digital signals and the reports provided here of equipment involved which he reads about on this thread, and also that he wanted everyone to know not to worry, that they are not "blowing us off". I don't want to get too specific here concerning some of his comments, but I will say (as allways when I've talked to him about such issues) It was obvious that he definitely reads this thread closely. As one little "tidbit", that should indicate that i'm not just "making this up", he wondered whether or not Terry worked for a broadcast station, especially given the "disclaimer" he has in his sig ..

More detailed version of post, mostly with more specific info concerning the "pixelization"/etc. issues they are working on follows :

I really want to be careful concerning what else I pass along, and how I do it as #1). I don't want to put words in his mouth, and #2). I know from past experiences with this sort of thing(NOT involving WKEF/WRGT), as "the messenger" it is all too easy to "get stuck in the middle" with this sort of thing. Also, #3). It might sound really strange, but some of this stuff can be sort of "odd" ... For instance, recall talking to one engineer in another state who could not talk much about the encoder they were using(brand name/etc) as much of anything he said could be considered as an endorsement/etc for the product, and there was a state law involved for him which didn't allow him to "do that" ... I know, sounds crazy, but it is/was true ... In any case, Hopefully, folks can understand a little bit about what I'm getting at there. I think(hope anyway) the following is probably OK, but I'll have to remove it if asked(if that happens, I'd guess it would most likely have something to do with #3), above .....

Concerning both the WKEF-DT "pixelization" issues a number of folks have reported over the past several weeks, as well as the "Receiver model specific", "receiver-reset like" issues, or "freezing" some of us have been getting from WKEF-DT with some receiver models over the past couple of months or so, for some of us "sporadically" at different times of day/etc ... I want to emphacize they *ARE* working on it, you/we're just going to have to hang in there until they get it straightened out. In fact has was working on it when I called - which is why if you happen to be tuned to WKEF-DT this afternoon, you might have "noticed" something a little "different" than usual - For instance, at around 3:45pm, for a short period they were running video from WRGT on WKEF-DT.

He did say that they've just got in some new receivers(from "digitalstream" - I haven't looked it up, but I think it may be pro gear) to help them monitor their signal. Unlike the receivers they have been using ----- (which are older Samsung receivers on which he said they haven't detected these issues on), and what he has seen when he's been able to monitor it from home via TWC(he said he hasn't seen/noticed any pixelization issues, there, and, don't quote me on this, but I believe he also said TW has reported no issues), ---- these new receivers are showing some problems with WKEF-DT -- Specifically, he said if he tunes the new box w/o PSIP stream to 51.1+51.2, It decodes just fine, but if he uses the PSIP and tries 22.1 he gets the issues along the lines of we have been describing, specifically I believe he said it freezes up ..For instance, I was monitoring 22.1 while I was talking to him, and at the very moment I mentioned I saw a bit of the "pixelization" issue pop up, he said it "froze up" ...

So, hopefully, now that he has something that is experiencing some sort of "adverse effects" that are perhaps related to what some of us are noticing, it will help them to troubleshoot what's going on.

Oh ... He also mentioned that these issues have been difficult for them to "troubleshoot" to try to find out what is going on, because they are using the *exact* same equipment(make/model/etc, In other words "one piece of each" equipment for each station) for *both* stations, except for the differences required for Fox and ABC, and for instance, he isn't getting the "freezing" on WRGT-DT, and I don't think any of us have reported getting any "pixelization" or freezing or "rebooting the receiver" issues from WRGT-DT, nor do I think anyone has reported any WRGT issues lately, at least during Non-Fox programming ...

I'm going into some of these details(again, I hope its OK) concerning the current issues with WKEF-DT and a bit of what he told me about it, as I think folks need to understand, that these sorts of *broadcast engineering" issues, and the equipment they have to work with are *not* anything like for instance, having problems installing a printer driver on your PC, or setting up your DTV reception .... It's most definitely *not* a *plug and play* sort of thing ....

Also -- *do* keep in mind, up until Feb 18, 2009 -- Their main focus, and their "bread and butter" comes from the *analog* signal/stations, not the digital, so, obviously, the analog station is still the priority .... It's a busy job for them, especially in this case taking care of FOUR TV stations ...

We talked about a few other things as well, but I think that about covers the issues of most interest.

Update:

Aw, crap - almost forgot -- He also mentioned he had been doing some reading concerning some current issues occuring with certian exciters, and that they are looking into that as well ...

as one little "tidbit", that should indicate that i'm not just "making this up", he wondered whether or not Terry worked for a broadcast station, especially given the "disclaimer" he has in his sig ..

Heh :) no, I don't work for a broadcast station, I think it might be fun and interesting work, but lacking an engineering degree I believe would be vastly under-qualified.

My disclaimer comes from a customer of the company I work for finding me by name on one of these boards. Oh, the perils of using your real name...

First off, I want to emphacize they have been, and *are* working on the "pixelization", freezing and/or "receiver rebooting" issues with WKEF-DT... As I noted earlier, Greg Dixon's information is on their "digital" station's webpage so I shot him an e-mail asking him to pass on my information, which he did, and replied the same, that "they're working on it".

He did say that they've just got in some new receivers(from "digitalstream" - I haven't looked it up, but I think it may be pro gear) DigitalStream (http://www.dstreamtech.com/english/main/main.asp)

For some reason, when I think "pro" equipment, I expect rack-mounted...

One comment about that.... I doubt that any of *us* have equipment like that. Wouldn't it be more beneficial to get a TW set-top, a DirecTV HD receiver, a Dish HD receiver, etc, etc. You know, the stuff normal viewers/customers use ??
Also -- *do* keep in mind, up until Feb 18, 2009 -- Their main focus, and their "bread and butter" comes from the *analog* signal/stations, not the digital, so, obviously, the analog station is still the priority .... That's understandable, of course, but I'd also look at it this way: Are they going to work out the bugs and glitches before or after Feb 18th, 09 ?? I realize it really is a long way away too. No one hear has screamed and hollered "WKEF *sucks* ! They can't run their digital station worth anything....". We asked "are others have pixellation issues or picture break-ups frequently on WKEF ?". I think it was very "calm" discussions and simply verifying that it wasn't just one person's equipment but most importantly, making WKEF aware of it.

For some reason, when I think "pro" equipment ....

Like I said, it was only a guess because I had not heard of them before, probably because I haven't spent much time as of late looking for external DTV receivers ....

Update follows: As for what is "pro" equipment, at one time There were some companies(RL Drake in our area was one of them) bundling one of the very receivers I use here(Zenith HDV420 - LG's first 4th generation chipset receiver) with "rack mounted" pro equipment they make for cable and MATV headends, for 8VSB demod and conversion to QAM/etc ...

Ok, Noticed one of the Digital Stream receivers is even listed in the "STB Sypnosis" in Hardware area of avsforum... Given the price noted in that thread, it sounds right along the lines of what WKEF engineer mentioned .... Don't know if it's the same model or not, though ......


You know, the stuff normal viewers/customers use ??


Well, I think equipment to monitor the transport stream/PSIP/etc can certianly be useful equipment for this sort of thing, however, the cost for that sort of thing may have come down, but I think some of that is quite expensive, and there have also certianly been cases when such equipment(or software in some cases) failed to notice any problems, and yet in some of those cases some decoders(receivers) have had problems.

But yes, that's a good idea. As I believe my post indicated they are using "consumer" equipment such as you mention to monitor their signals, as well as input from us on such issues - For instance, as I mentioned The Engineer I talked to watches the HD stations via TW cable at his house, they've had a Samsung receiver(a commonly used model) at the station for several years, etc.

They cannot however purchase every single receiver out there(many of them some of us have have been discontinued, for example), hence one reason why good, reliable+accurate reports from us can be so useful to them, especially when "receiver/chipset "specific" things are happening ...

Anyway, I think The "normal stuff" we use involves all sorts of different brands/models/etc(and firmware versions, likely), from the very first receivers on the market in 98~99 to the latest stuff in our sets, PC's, and sat/cable boxes .....


Are they going to work out the bugs and glitches before or after Feb 18th, 09 ??


I expect stations will be having bugs and glitches for as long as they have a signal on the air, It still happens with analog broadcasting ....

But, I would also speculate that the number of incidences will likely go down with DTV stations after analog shut off.

update: Also, when these "receiver model specific" issues occur, it's also often difficult to say in any given case if the "bug" is at the station, or, the receivers/firmware on OUR end ... Either or *both* is possible ...


No one hear has screamed and hollered "WKEF *sucks* ! They can't run their digital station worth anything....". We asked "are others have pixellation issues or picture break-ups frequently on WKEF ?". I think it was very "calm" discussions and simply verifying that it wasn't just one person's equipment but most importantly, making WKEF aware of it.


And????? Sorry, I'm confused ... I don't see what you're getting at unless you are just "recapping" events for us ?????

Any word on when WKEF-DT will go full power?

Any word on when WKEF-DT will go full power? Feb 18th, 2009, 12:00 midnight :D

Feb 18th, 2009, 12:00 midnight :D

That is what I'm afraid of... I can get the rest of the networks with 90+ signal strength OTA, but WKEF-DT comes in with about 70 in signal strength. This causes a lot of pixelization and lost signal. The thing about it is WRGT-DT, WHIO-DT, and WDTN-DT come in perfectly. The general direction of those are the same from my house according to antennaweb, so I believe it has more to do with the signal strength than anything else.

You guys are funny. I don't know how many times we have to go through this ...

WKEF-DT has been at full power(138KW ERP - That's their Full power Allocation from FCC) for over a year and a half, the STA they were running before then was very close to "full power"(at 95KW ERP a fraction of a db less) as well. FCC doesn't let everyone run at the upper, maximum power limit allowed on UHF(1000KW ERP),as, for example, there are interference issues taken under consideration for any given channel allocation ...

WKEF-DT coverage area reaches 55~65 miles from their tower, their antenna pattern is non-directional according to info at FCC site.

Each doubling of power is about +3db, about the same as removing a 2 way splitter from your feedline. Typically, with "full power" stations such as WKEF-DT, within 15 miles of transmitter, you can easily have 40~60db or more signal than is necessary .... Db scale is logarhytmic, each halfing or doubling of power in ERP is 1/2(reduction by 1/2) or 2x(doubling power) the amount of signal you started with, but the entire "piece of the pie" is much bigger ...

Also keep in mind, The vast majority of Digital OTA receivers tell us nothing about the actual signal strength, oftentimes even when their signal meters say "signal strength" right on the screen .... Basically, They are usually generally an indication of how "easy" it is for your receiver to decode the datastream(problem issues such as multipath effect those numbers you get just as much as "signal strength" does) , and they are probably best thought of as "signal quality" meters, ...Therefore, Fairly weak(but "clean") signals can show high readings, and strong signals laden with multipath/interference can show a "0"
or low readings, or cause a "bouncing around" meter reading ... The Signal strength from a station's transmitter doesn't "bounce around", By the way ....

If you truly have a "signal strength" issue with WKEF-DT, and are receiving the more powerful stations which transmit with a few db more powerful signal(be sure to pay close attention to some station's directional antenna patterns when you are calculating how much power a station is sending your way), its probably best to improve your antenna setup+reduce any attenuation issues(having antenna indoors can easily attentuate signals by -20db or more) as possible ... Also keep in mind, there can be "hot spots" and "cold spots" for signals on such short UHF wavelengths, and especially indoors, moving your antenna a foot or two one way or the other can do wonders ...

Update #1) Now, as far as, lets say how "clean" the signal is as it leaves WKEF-DT -- That's another matter -- Since I'm getting readings here as high as 33~34 DB SNR in that regard(even though I make no claim concerning the accuracy of the SNR+AGC readings i have on the receiver I have which tells me these things), I've never seen it any higher than that from any other stations, so I don't think it could get much "better", But, that is the sort of thing which could be effected by exciter issues at the station, among other things ...

Oh, I'm also getting AGC reading from them which indicate that the signal I receive from them is quite strong ... Last time I checked this a couple of years ago, I could add about 50db extra attentation in feedline(yes, that's a lot of attenuators+splitters! I almost ran out of stuff before I got down to near threshold for WDTN-DT!(required about 58~60db extra attenuation added to feedline to lose a lock from them) and still(but just barely) achieve perfect reception from WKEF-DT ....

------------

Update #2) : I understand the reasons why our local engineers don't(or aren't allowed to) post on AVSforum, but I certianly wish they would, as perhaps they could help to clear up some of the (mostly understandable) misconceptions about some of these things .....

Are you suggesting that after the analog cut-off date, WKEF will not make any change to their output power ??

Are you suggesting that after the analog cut-off date, WKEF will not make any change to their output power ??

No, I did not say that. It might increase, decrease or stay the same. The same is true for all the other stations. We don't know that yet. I am saying that if you are in, or anywhere near Dayton, their current "Full power" operation should provide more than enough signal strength for folks ....

Transmitting antenna height has generally turned out to be more of a factor than power for DTV .... And, WKEF-DT's antenna is just as high as all the others in Dayton (more or less) ...

WBDT-DT has the lowest "full power" allocation in Dayton, currently at 35KW ERP, but with a directional antenna pattern which sends much less power than that in some directions. For example, according to the info on their antenna pattern on FCC site, I'm only getting about 1.5KW ERP sent my way from them. My DTV "signal meter" Says "98" for them just as it does for WKEF-DT and WDTN-DT, and yet I'm getting about 3.5x more power from WHIO-DT, about 6.25x more power sent my way from WKEF-DT, ~7x more power from WPTD-DT, and about 9.25x more power sent my way from WDTN-DT .....

WHIO-DT has a 1000KW ERP allocation(which I believe they are currently running at), however it is also with a directional antenna pattern, meaning you only get that much sent your way in certian directions from their tower. I'm right in WHIO-DT's antenna pattern biggest null, however(right towards Me AND co-channel WDRB 41 Louisville, KY), and they only squirt about 36.1 KW ERP in my direction. The signal meter says "87~91" for them ....

-----------------------------------------

Since I've gotten my "better" antenna, it's no longer an issue for me, but WKEF is still the "weakest" for me too (not counting WKOI). I'm even pointed directly at their tower, as best I can determine, at the sacrifice of the other stations. Luckily, WDTN and WHIO, which are at the far ends of the "angle" or spread from my location, seem to make up for it with their seemingly stronger output, directional or not.

Since I've gotten my "better" antenna, it's no longer an issue for me, but WKEF is still the "weakest" for me too (not counting WKOI). I'm even pointed directly at their tower, as best I can determine, at the sacrifice of the other stations. Luckily, WDTN and WHIO, which are at the far ends of the "angle" or spread from my location, seem to make up for it with their seemingly stronger output, directional or not.

WKEF-DT does output a weaker signal than WDTN-DT or WHIO-DT (or WRGT-DT or WPTD-DT) in most directions, but I highly doubt you have any means of actually detecting that difference in an accurate manner ... Any of those signals could be weaker or stronger than the others at any given antenna at any given location due to many factors ....

Aren't you puzzled at all when for example, someone farther away from the towers than you are comes here and reports "95~100 reading" on their signal meter from all the dayton station with a "bowtie" hanging in the attic/etc ? So, you can "detect" that WKEF is weaker than the others but they can't ?

WBDT-DT is the weakest DTV signal in Dayton, currently --- Maximum of 35KW ERP (directional antenna pattern) ...

WKEF-DT, WBDT-DT and WRGT-DT (and WRGT/WBDT analog) all transmit off the same tower according to FCC info (it's the one with the crossmember and 3 visable masts on top) ... WKEF analog is on a different tower(again, according to the antenna coordinates via info at FCC site) ...

If you want to wildly speculate, however, why not perhaps wildly speculate that #1)perhaps Your Dish receiver may have problems with two first adjacent channel digital TV stations, one(WDTN-DT 50) sending about 3x more power than the other(WKEF-DT 51) .... Or, you could wildly speculate that 2). WDTN-DT or WKEF-DT transmissions may be going "out of channel" at times due to issues involving sending the proper corrections to their exciter or something similar.

Although, both of those would seem to me to be very unlikely speculation(just as much as *blaming* a weak signal from WKEF-DT for reception problems), given that, concerning #1 - , FCC "says" our receivers should work just fine with signal levels as different as 46db or so between 1st adjacent channel stations, so one would assume manufactuers would at least be able to design a receiver that works fine with at least 10 or 20db difference) and, concerning #2), That for instance, I don't seem to be seeing any possible indication of that, as one would expect that to effect the RF signal of one or the other stations+cause changes in AGC/SNR or signal quality readings and, I'm not seeing any changes in those, including when the pixelization "glitches" have occured ... otherwise, either #1 or #2 are possible, and I know of one time *way back when, #2 has occured(but with different stations, and in that case, one of those 1st adjancent channel stations was in Cincinnati, one in Dayton), that time, I *was* able to tell there was something wrong along those lines ....

All I know is that I have an outdoor antenna that gets WHIO, WRGT, and WDTN's digital signal without a problem. I cannot receive WKEF well at all, and I'm near the Greene in Kettering (thus, not far away). WKEF and WBDT are about the same in terms of the signal meter on my ViP-622, and neither come in very well.

They say a pic is worth a 1,000 words so attached is "signal meter" readings via digital camera screenshots from my location(approx 12~14 miles from Dayton antenna farm) for WDTN-DT(left) and WKEF-DT (right) .....

Those are from my "lower gain" dayton antenna setup, but In fact, with a little rotation of my "hi-gain" antenna setup I get pretty much the same reading from this particular "indicator"(the so called "signal strength" bar as labeled) from all Dayton+Cincinnati+Northern KY digital stations, all of which are 12~39 Miles distant .......

All I know is that I have an outdoor antenna that gets WHIO, WRGT, and WDTN's digital signal without a problem. I cannot receive WKEF well at all, and I'm near the Greene in Kettering (thus, not far away). WKEF and WBDT are about the same in terms of the signal meter on my ViP-622, and neither come in very well.

I think I can safely say The amount of power being transmitted from WKEF-DT or WBDT-DT (or any other station you're having problems receiving) is not your problem ....

I don't know where "The Greene" is exactly, but I do know where Kettering is, and therefore(unless you're at the bottom and on the wrong side and very close to a large hill, perhaps) ... DUDE .... from that distance you should have enough signal strength to receive all the Dayton stations off an "indoor" paper clip, AND with a properly installed outdoor antenna setup you should be able to receive *all the dayton* stations even if they reduced power to less than 10 Watts .... heck, you should probably even be able to get them off their exciter if they took the transmitter off air + left the signal up ....

I and I'm sure others here would be glad to help if you want to improve your reception and/or try to diagnose what is going wrong .... I won't go into that now, however, since you haven't asked for it ....

If you do want such input however, the more we know about your setup (such as antenna make/model + what's in between the antenna+the receiver -- any(diplexor's/etc, or is the antenna feed on seperate line?) the more likely it is we can help .... Also, Any nearby obstructions to the West(towards the towers?)

Has anyone else lost OTA signal to Fox 45 on 45-1?? It was my strongest signal of all of them but all of a sudden this morning I have the searching for signal and no matter which way I place the antenna its not coming up. Have all the other locals OTA fine.

Has anyone else lost OTA signal to Fox 45 on 45-1?? It was my strongest signal of all of them but all of a sudden this morning I have the searching for signal and no matter which way I place the antenna its not coming up. Have all the other locals OTA fine.

I remember having this happen one time way back and the PSIP had changed to 45-3 for some reason. You may want to give that a shot, otherwise I don't have any idea.

hey jeff - do you have a pic of your antenna farm?

They say a pic is worth a 1,000 words so attached is "signal meter" readings via digital camera screenshots from my location(approx 12~14 miles from Dayton antenna farm) for WDTN-DT(left) and WKEF-DT (right) .....

Those are from my "lower gain" dayton antenna setup, but In fact, with a little rotation of my "hi-gain" antenna setup I get pretty much the same reading from this particular "indicator"(the so called "signal strength" bar as labeled) from all Dayton+Cincinnati+Northern KY digital stations, all of which are 12~39 Miles distant .......

Has anyone else lost OTA signal to Fox 45 on 45-1?? It was my strongest signal of all of them but all of a sudden this morning I have the searching for signal and no matter which way I place the antenna its not coming up. Have all the other locals OTA fine.

WRGT-DT (remaps to 45.1+45.2) is currently off the air.

WRGT-DT (remaps to 45.1+45.2) is currently off the air.

Does that mean it will be back on?? How did you find that out been searching everywhere for that info lol...Thanks btw.

hey jeff - do you have a pic of your antenna farm?

The antenna I'm using doesn't increase the amount of signal leaving WKEF-DT's transmitting antenna....

If we needed 1 Million watts on UHF to cover 6(or 12) miles, then our cellphones would need to be the size of refrigarators, have the power requirements of a small factory, and require the use of a hi-gain outdoor antenna ;-) ...

Anyway, I can achieve such readings off such a "signal meter" from WKEF-DT or WDTN-DT with this antenna hanging near a 2nd story window facing the towers (update/note - Oh, BTW, I'm in a small, Steep, VERY forested valley, and there are Terrain+"trees" attenuation "issues" involved for me for Dayton) :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&cp=&sr=1&origkw=Bowtie&kw=bowtie&parentPage=search

Does that mean it will be back on??


Yes. [update] I don't know when that might be, however. Probably just temporary while they are doing "maintenance", but if they're having some sort of problem, it depends upon the problem+how long it might take them to get it fixed ... If they aren't back up within a couple of days or so, I'll drop them a note and ask, others are of course free to do so as well ... [end update]

Typically, stations choose periods when fewer people are watching to go off air for maintenance or to install new equipment/etc, such as during the wee hours of morning, or during the day .... Do note that This isn't the first time in the past couple of weeks or so WRGT-DT has been off air temporarily during the day ....


How did you find that out been searching everywhere for that info lol...


By noticing I am not currently receiving any signal from them(on channel 30, where they actually transmit - some receiver's let you do this, some don't+will only allow you to "tune" to the PSIP virtual "remapped" channels), and checking channel 30 on a analog Tuner ..

Concerning the latter, it would be a little complicated to properly and fully explain how I can tell via the latter method they are off the air, in short, it involves how the AFT (automatic fine tuning) on my TV's analog tuner "works" which allow me to detect via "funny looking snow" from the effects from 1st adjacent channel WXIX-DT (transmits on 29) Cincinnati, and first adjacent channel WKRC-DT (Transmits on 31) .... If WRGT-DT's signal was on the air, I'd only see "clean looking snow" on channel 30 on this analog TV, because the AFT doesn't "wonder around" and instead would (in a sense) "Lock on" to WRGT-DT's 8VSB signal(probably around the 8VSB pilot carrier, but who knows) .... Since a 8VSB("digital") signal appears random and "noiselike" to a analog TV, then what results is (pretty much+usually, depending upon the analog tuner in a TV) nothing but "clean" looking snow ....

hey jeff - do you have a pic of your antenna farm?

Well, it's not quite an 'antenna farm", LOL ..

Had to go out in the cold and "snap" photo attached to message(my camera's battery needed charging so I didn't get best angle/etc), hence my "two responses" to your post, as I wasn't sure If I'd get the time(or motivation) to do that anytime soon ...

Top two antennas are seperate UHF+VHF antennas(with rotor) which are "eventually" combined on same feedline .... The antenna on top is *only* 35 Feet above ground, although the ground at my location actually rises about 30Feet ABOVE the antenna within about 500Feet distance of my antenna in some directions ... The vast majority of the time, the rotor isn't utilized, and these antennas are used for Cincinnati/N KY DTV/Analog OTA reception(+WAVE 3 Louisville), as well as for FM analog/IBOC(i.e. "HD radio") on 3 receivers.

The UHF Yagi/corner reflector at bottom is for Dayton, on a seperate coax run, which is combined with VHF from a CM3010 "stealthtenna" lying in attic which I use only for Dayton VHF analogs+FM, the latter only on some receivers .... A/B switch(remote controlled on two setups) is used before receivers/various devices to switch between the two antenna setups/coax runs ..

The antenna(s) feeds A total of about 15 different devices(TV's, DTV receivers, FM receivers, S-VHS VCR's, PC tuner cards/etc) ... in 4 different rooms .... It would get a little complicated, and difficult to explain it all in detail(at least w/o block diagrams), but in short, the current equipment list also includes various preamps/fm traps/channel traps/notch filters/Splitters + in one case a TV/FM band seperator (FM side unamplfied) ....

Update: As for the trees, I have LOTS of them .... Hopefully, you can make out in this shot what is antenna+what is tree limbs in the background ....

Yes. [update] I don't know when that might be, however. Probably just temporary while they are doing "maintenance", but if they're having some sort of problem, it depends upon the problem+how long it might take them to get it fixed ... If they aren't back up within a couple of days or so, I'll drop them a note and ask, others are of course free to do so as well ... [end update]

Typically, stations choose periods when fewer people are watching to go off air for maintenance or to install new equipment/etc, such as during the wee hours of morning, or during the day .... Do note that This isn't the first time in the past couple of weeks or so WRGT-DT has been off air temporarily during the day ....



By noticing I am not currently receiving any signal from them(on channel 30, where they actually transmit - some receiver's let you do this, some don't+will only allow you to "tune" to the PSIP virtual "remapped" channels), and checking channel 30 on a analog Tuner ..

Concerning the latter, it would be a little complicated to properly and fully explain how I can tell via the latter method they are off the air, in short, it involves how the AFT (automatic fine tuning) on my TV's analog tuner "works" which allow me to detect via "funny looking snow" from the effects from 1st adjacent channel WXIX-DT (transmits on 29) Cincinnati, and first adjacent channel WKRC-DT (Transmits on 31) .... If WRGT-DT's signal was on the air, I'd only see "clean looking snow" on channel 30 on this analog TV, because the AFT doesn't "wonder around" and instead would (in a sense) "Lock on" to WRGT-DT's 8VSB signal(probably around the 8VSB pilot carrier, but who knows) .... Since a 8VSB("digital") signal appears random and "noiselike" to a analog TV, then what results is (pretty much+usually, depending upon the analog tuner in a TV) nothing but "clean" looking snow ....

Well Prison Break and 24 are quickly approaching and its still not up ARGHHHH!!!

Well Prison Break and 24 are quickly approaching and its still not up ARGHHHH!!!

Yep, 24 in SD totally sucked. Thanks, Fox 45! Great timing!

I called the station tonight. Of course I wanted my 24 in HD! I was told HDTV was currently down and the engineers were working on the problem. The lady I talked to had no ETA for repair.

I called the station tonight. Of course I wanted my 24 in HD! I was told HDTV was currently down and the engineers were working on the problem. The lady I talked to had no ETA for repair.

Prison Break and 24 were in HD for me via TWC on WRGT-DT... I never checked OTA...

I live in Cincinnati, but still use all of the Dayton channels as well as the Cincinnati channels. I was freaking out last night, after splitting my indoor antenna in the living room to run to the bedroom as well. Got rid of the (weaker) antenna in the bedroom. Checked my signal on all the channels, everything was fine except 45-1 and 45-2. I thought the splitter reduced my signal too much, so I started tinkering with the antenna.

It wasn't until I ran without the splitter and still could not get 45 for the life of me that I realized they must be off-air. Sure enough, that seems to be the case.

Thank you to others for reporting the same thing. :)

Prison Break and 24 were in HD for me via TWC on WRGT-DT... I never checked OTA...

WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT feeds to the cableco are via Fiber, so via cable their signal shouldn't be effected if there are problems with the transmitter/etc that causes the OTA signal to be off air.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For the OTA folks, these things happen(even to the analogs, occasionally) ... So, if you're really into certian shows/etc, whenever possible it probably is a good idea to have a "backup", such as, WXIX-DT, Cincinnati (Fox HD, Including last night) ....

WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT feeds to the cableco are via Fiber, so via cable their signal shouldn't be effected if there are problems with the transmitter/etc that causes the OTA signal to be off air.


Ahhh... finally a reason to have cable ;)

I had asked my contact at TWC how they rec'd the local digital channels and he told me some via antenna and some via fiber (possibly mentioned microwave too) but he wouldn't which stations were which method.... We know now for one (or two).

We know now for one (or two).

WKEF/WRGT engineers told us a long time ago(and It was reported here) both of their digitals were sent to TW via fiber ....

As of 2:30pm Tue 1/30, WRGT-DT (45.x remapped) is currently back on the air ...

As of 2:30pm Tue 1/30, WRGT-DT (45.x remapped) is currently back on the air ...

Hey that's great. Only 18 hours late for 24. :rolleyes:

very nice!!

Well, it's not quite an 'antenna farm", LOL ..

Had to go out in the cold and "snap" photo attached to message(my camera's battery needed charging so I didn't get best angle/etc), hence my "two responses" to your post, as I wasn't sure If I'd get the time(or motivation) to do that anytime soon ...

Top two antennas are seperate UHF+VHF antennas(with rotor) which are "eventually" combined on same feedline .... The antenna on top is *only* 35 Feet above ground, although the ground at my location actually rises about 30Feet ABOVE the antenna within about 500Feet distance of my antenna in some directions ... The vast majority of the time, the rotor isn't utilized, and these antennas are used for Cincinnati/N KY DTV/Analog OTA reception(+WAVE 3 Louisville), as well as for FM analog/IBOC(i.e. "HD radio") on 3 receivers.

The UHF Yagi/corner reflector at bottom is for Dayton, on a seperate coax run, which is combined with VHF from a CM3010 "stealthtenna" lying in attic which I use only for Dayton VHF analogs+FM, the latter only on some receivers .... A/B switch(remote controlled on two setups) is used before receivers/various devices to switch between the two antenna setups/coax runs ..

The antenna(s) feeds A total of about 15 different devices(TV's, DTV receivers, FM receivers, S-VHS VCR's, PC tuner cards/etc) ... in 4 different rooms .... It would get a little complicated, and difficult to explain it all in detail(at least w/o block diagrams), but in short, the current equipment list also includes various preamps/fm traps/channel traps/notch filters/Splitters + in one case a TV/FM band seperator (FM side unamplfied) ....

Update: As for the trees, I have LOTS of them .... Hopefully, you can make out in this shot what is antenna+what is tree limbs in the background ....

^thanks, Jim.

It does work very nicely, including for nice pics the Analog LP's in the area, and for times when the stations have problems and have to temporarily(although at times that can happen for extended periods), run at lower power or transmitting antenna heights.

Also, when DX conditions are good, every now and then it also lets me see stuff such as in attached pic ... At left, WTVF-DT 56 (digital), Nashville, TN(277 Miles) via "tropo", at right, WFOR 4, Miami, FL (971 Miles) via "Sporadic E" ....

FYI for the Dish Network HD OTA people... Dish has uplinked guide info for the Dayton subchannels (WHIO-DT 7-2, etc.).

Hello!! Greetings to all you Dayton TV watchers from Springfield!!

I'd like a little advice on my HD antenna setup, I've been reading the last couple pages of this thread, (started at the begining but that was just too long ago!) and its great to see some good people around here with good knowlege and even some station engineer friends!!

I live on the south west side of Springfield, and antenna web says I should be able to pick up WRGT-DT, WBDT-DT, WPTD-DT, WKEF-DT, WHIO-DT, WDTN-DT, from Dayton and even WBNS-DT, and WCMH-DT from columbus. I am not interested in the Columbus stations as mostly I watch the major networks anyway. I'm having some issues with reception here. According to antenna web, I am 25 miles from the dayton towers (all 243 deg compass orientation) and 43 from C-town.

The antenna is mounted on my chimeny, above a two story house, that has a full standup finished attic. (im guessing maybe 30 feet up?). I first had a yagi type antenna from a buddy at work, and that was working OK but it seemed too directional. When I would point the antenna (with a rotor) to WDTN, I would loose the signal on WHIO and vice versa. So I went and bought a DB4 antenna from antennasdirect.com hoping that it was not as directional (as I thought that was my problem).

While there, I also bought a 4 space distribution amplifier. When I installed the new antenna, I ran new RG6 cable, and put the distribution amplifier at the end of the line (maybe 60 feet of RG6).

Now reception is worse! I'm not having any luck really, and I've got the gain on the dist amp turned all the way up, and the signal is unreliable. It will be OK some days on WDTN and then not another day.

I am using a Dvico Fusion HD card in my HTPC as the tuner. I've also used the tuner in my Olevia 532H LCD TV and that seems to do a little better than the Dvico card, but still suffers the same issues.

I am concerned right now that my connections (F connectors on the RG6) are terrible. I've no confidence in them, and am thinking about replacing the RG6 with a factory terminated length.

Here's the ?, Lets say I have 75 feet of cable, would I loose alot of signal if I bought a 100 ft length? I want to know whether I ought to order a custom cable length (to keep the distances as short as possible) with F connectors installed to take my connections out of the loop. I trying to figure out if I need to order a custom length, or a longer than necessary stock length. I haven't pulled down my existing length to know now for sure what the length is.

I am also wondering about the matching transformer. The one that came with my DB4 seemed cheap, and I am wondering if there is anything nicer out there, or does it really matter?

Thanks for the help, a special note about springfield is the WEEC fm radio station is close by (less than 10 miles from me). My dist amp has an FM trap, I've switched it on and off without any change, but thought that might be usefull info.

Tboy

Tboy555,

Welcome to Dayton thread ... I'll provide some thoughts below, in hopes they are of some use but do keep in mind how difficult it is to try to diagnose+"help out", as there are so many factors and possibilites concerning what might be causing your problems, it's awfully difficult to guess concerning what your problems might be without being "on site" and seeing directly what you're dealing with/etc ....

I wonder ... Do you have any nearby hills in the signal path? Trees? Any nearby possible signal obstrictions? Any nearby water towers?

And, What do the analog stations look like? Snow/Ghosts/signs of interference/etc ? For instance, if the Dayton UHF analogs are "snowy"(other than the Dayton Low power analogs on 40+55, those will probably be at least a bit snowy --The LP TBN translator on channel 20 in springfield probably shouldn't be "snowy" however) --- unless you've got a big, nearby hill in the signal paths to deal with, I'd guess chances may be good you do have some bad connections, or something along those lines ...

Same thing should probably pretty much be true for Columbus as well (do keep in mind, WSYX-DT, ABC HD Columbus transmits on VHF, so you'd likely want/need a antenna designed for VHF reception for that one) ...

I'm having some issues with reception here. According to antenna web, I am 25 miles from the dayton towers (all 243 deg compass orientation) and 43 from C-town.

I first had a yagi type antenna from a buddy at work, and that was working OK but it seemed too directional.


Shouldn't have been too directional .... Generally, the more directivity an antenna has, the better it is at handling issues such as multipath, and, unless you do have some bad connections(or something similar), it sounds possible multipath or "multipath like" issues(such as the AGC in your receiver not being able to quite keep up with signal disturbances caused by wind blowing tree limbs around/etc) are what you may be dealing with ....


When I would point the antenna (with a rotor) to WDTN, I would loose the signal on WHIO and vice versa.


sorry to be repetitive, but, again Unless you do have some bad connections or a bad balun(matching transformer), that really Sounds a lot like multipath, or "multipath like" issues ....

All the Dayton towers are so close together, I don't see how you could really "aim" at one station and not the other from 25 miles, even with the "most" directional of antenna array ...

However, when multipath(which can be *very* frequency specific) is an issue, what you describe is right along the lines of what can happen ... Aim the antenna a little differently(not allways necessarily aiming it "exactly" at the tower), and one channel comes in great/but another doesn't/etc ....

Other possibilities may include some sort of interference(which is probably unlikely), or the front end of your receiver getting overloaded(probably not from 25 miles, or from nearby Springfield stations -- at least not without the use of the amp) ....


It will be OK some days on WDTN and then not another day.


Again, that sounds like multipath, or "multipath like" issues, which, for instance is not a problem that would be solved by adding an amp ....

For instance, some folks have problems along the lines of what you are experiencing when Leaves are on trees, some folks have problems when leaves are off trees, some folks have problems when the wind blows the tree limbs around or some combination of those ....

In any case, when this sort of thing is a problem, aiming the antenna "exactly" at the towers may not be best, *and* unfortunetly, where you have the antenna mounted may not be the best spot for it, either .... A little bit up or down, or right or left or back or forth may(or may not) do wonders, or, a spot on the other side of the house/etc might do wonders(or might not) ..... Probably, unless you have a spectrum analyzer lying around, the Only way to find that best spot is with a TV/DTV receiver on the roof so you can see the results of your antenna adjustments, or at least a helper with a 2 way radio looking at the "signal meter" ....

This sort of thing is usually more of a problem indoors, but it can happen outdoors as well, probably especially if there's a bit of terrain obstruction, or nearby tree limbs blowing in the wind ...

When this sort of issue is a problem, There can be "hot spots" and "dead spots" for signals (especially on the upper UHF channels, where the wavelengths are shorter), everywhere, and you may need to reposistion the antenna for best results "seasonally" ... (hopefully a rotor would do the trick for this ) ...


I am concerned right now that my connections (F connectors on the RG6) are terrible. I've no confidence in them, and am thinking about replacing the RG6 with a factory terminated length.


Good connections are certainly important, for instance a "kinked up" center conductor because you tightned a "waterproof" F connector too tight can really mess things up --- also important is properly waterproofing outdoor connections, you don't want water getting in there ... However, "factory" connectors aren't going to work any better than ones you install yourself (properly) ....

Oh, it's not a "performance" issue, but don't forget to make sure your setup is properly grounded as well ....


Here's the ?, Lets say I have 75 feet of cable, would I loose alot of signal if I bought a 100 ft length?


No. About 1db on UHF per 25ft of coax .... But, it's probably not a really good idea to have 25' of extra coax coiled up in your attic, either ....


I want to know whether I ought to order a custom cable length (to keep the distances as short as possible) with F connectors installed to take my connections out of the loop.


it's up to you ... I would make sure my connections were good ...

Do keep in mind, you can "pull the cable through" a lot tighter spaces without an F-connector attached to the end ....


I am also wondering about the matching transformer. The one that came with my DB4 seemed cheap, and I am wondering if there is anything nicer out there, or does it really matter?


Probably doesn't matter, unless you've gotten one that is bad .... Which, BTW is probably unlikely, but possible ....


Thanks for the help, a special note about springfield is the WEEC fm radio station is close by (less than 10 miles from me). My dist amp has an FM trap, I've switched it on and off without any change, but thought that might be usefull info.


Typically, FM trap would usually be more important if you were using an antenna designed for VHF reception with nearby FM stations(especially if you have to "aim" the antenna at the nearby FM station to aim it at the desired TV stations as well) .... But, that being said, it could be difficult for you to tell whether or not the amp/receiver front end is being overloaded by a nearby FM signal, and I'd go ahead and engage the trap in most circumstances ...

Do keep in mind however that *any* nearby strong signal(especially on VHF/UHF frequencies) can overload amps/preamps ... It doesn't have to be from a FM broadcast station or TV station ....

Hope some of that is of some use ...

I watched the Superbowl this evening entirely on WHIO-DT and I thought the picture looked great! I didn't see the motion artifacts that were present two weeks ago. I am guess stat muxing is being used, or WHIO bumped up the bandwidth. I also saw an ad for WHIO during one of the breaks, and they were talking about all their advancements, with a side comment on this year having more upgrades. I have heard on the rumor mill that WHIO will be upgrading their news broadcasts to HD this year. Also, in the Cincinnati market, WCPO is also rumored to upgrade this year. With Cleveland having the most stations in the nation(FOX, NBC, ABC) doing local HD news production, hopefully it will spread south.

I watched the Superbowl this evening entirely on WHIO-DT and I thought the picture looked great! I didn't see the motion artifacts that were present two weeks ago. I am guess stat muxing is being used, or WHIO bumped up the bandwidth. I also saw an ad for WHIO during one of the breaks, and they were talking about all their advancements, with a side comment on this year having more upgrades. I have heard on the rumor mill that WHIO will be upgrading their news broadcasts to HD this year.

I did see some slight motion artifacts, but it was noticably better than the last few weeks.

WHIO HD local News broadcasts? I suspect they were waiting to get some young attractive folks at the news desk (okay don't hit me :p )

I did see some slight motion artifacts, but it was noticably better than the last few weeks.


What was interesting with the Time Warner feed was that it appeared that they were stealing bandwidth from the other HD feeds ... Discovery and TNT were chock full of audio dropouts and motion artifacts, while the Super Bowl was crystal clear. I also thought it kinda funny that the rain was playing havoc with the feed from the Super Bowl. CBS probably should've run a crawler "The smudges you see are not from your HDTV ... it's raining here."

C'ya
Cran

I did see some slight motion artifacts, but it was noticably better than the last few weeks.


Same here from WHIO-DT, except the one exception as I mentioned earlier in thread -- I also thought the game in Baltimore several weeks ago looked pretty good in this regard as well (I think it was the ravens game at least) ...

During the Superbowl Pre-game coverage however, there was a piece on Hines Ward In Korea with lots of flash photography going on, that was still pretty bad on both WHIO-DT and WKRC-DT - Strobes just aren't kind to MPEG2 compression, it seems .... that's even been the case in the past with stations that aren't multicasting at all ...

Did WHIO-DT broadcast the game in DD5.1 as they usually do? I'm checking to see in relation to post made on another thread where they did not specify their CBS affiliate, but did give their location and they could have picked up either WHIO-DT or WKRC-DT.

The OSU basketball game on Saturday afternoon was terrible... maybe WHIO upped the bandwidth for the Superbowl, but they certainly didn't for the basketball games on Saturday.

Did WHIO-DT broadcast the game in DD5.1 as they usually do?...

Yes, the game was DD5.1 from WHIO-DT.

Did WHIO-DT broadcast the game in DD5.1 as they usually do? I'm checking to see in relation to post made on another thread where they did not specify their CBS affiliate, but did give their location and they could have picked up either WHIO-DT or WKRC-DT.

Yes definitely 51. The halftime show sounded real good - much better than the previous superbowls. When they would come back from commercials, the rears would come up first (with crowd noises), before the fronts (with theme music) and the center (with the commentators) - it was pretty cool.


The OSU basketball game on Saturday afternoon was terrible... maybe WHIO upped the bandwidth for the Superbowl, but they certainly didn't for the basketball games on Saturday.
Yep, my experience, as well. I went over to 7.2, expecting it to be gone, but it wasn't. Will be interesting to see if they leave the settings the same. Hope so!

With the school closing info "squeezed in" at the bottom, The distorted Aspect Ratio certianly doesn't look very good on WHIO-DT tonight ....

More and more stations seem to be doing that - This is the first time I've seen it happen with HD that I can recall, but, it's REALLY ugly for HD or SD, I don't see how anyone can watch that ...

Yeah, I thought that the digital channels would be immune from the bottom-scrolls at least for a while.... Saw it on channel 7.1 and was very disappointed.

Yeah, I thought that the digital channels would be immune from the bottom-scrolls at least for a while.... Saw it on channel 7.1 and was very disappointed.

WRGT-DT only had the crawls during the local commercial feed... when it switched over to the FOX-HD feed it was full 16x9 w/o a crawl...

I'll get to see what WHIO-DT looks like tonight when I watch my dvr'd shows :(

With the school closing info "squeezed in" at the bottom, The distorted Aspect Ratio certianly doesn't look very good on WHIO-DT tonight .... Even my wife noticed the difference in the picture when they squeezed it !

I watched WDTN-DT for most of the evening/night last night. During HD broadcasts (leno, connan, studio 60) there was no crawler. During commercials there were, and then when Carson came on in SD they squeezed it all up. Now I have a 19", but in my bedroom that's all I need, and it was even bad squeezed up for the crawler.

^The thing is, we're not seeing the distortion of the video occur on HD feeds from most stations, only because they do not have currently have the equipment necessary to key in local graphics into HD. But, if you checked WDTN/WRGT/WKEF analogs last night, you certianly would have seen the distortions, there.

Thankfully, most stations(actually, this is more the case for Dayton than Cincy) in the area usually do currently go ahead and give us the HD feed anyway instead of dropping to SD so the graphics are inserted, but that could of course change at any time ...

As I just mentioned in Cincy thread, I can tolerate the school closings or other weather or emergency related info, but I can't tolerate distortion of the aspect ratio.

Furthermore, I also don't understand why it's even happening, perhaps many stations don't have the right equipment, but I don't seem to recall this being much of an issue other than for the last several years or so, and I'd think they should be able to find a way to adjust the Horizontal size of the video to preserve proper aspect ratio ...

In other words, when they "squeeze in" crawls at the bottom, they need to "squeeze in" the sides as well, for proper AR to result ... WAVE 3 Lousville was doing that properly this morning during "Today" show, WCPO 9 Cincinnati USED to do it all the time, and, cablenets do it all the time, especially noticable perhaps on the ESPN channels when they squeeze in Scores or crawls at bottom of screen(noticed NFL network does as well, including during the 69' superbowl they aired last week -- It was old, "fuzzy" video, but at least AR was correct) ... It's almost a permanent thing on ESPN News ..

I agree that they should keep the aspect ratio the same.

On another topic, tonight I watched SVU on WDTN with no problems OTA, but now when I go back to WDTN during Connan I'm still getting about 55% signal, but usually no video or audio. Sometimes the video cuts in and out, but no audio ever. Anybody else?

I've been having intermittent dropouts with WDTN-DT lately. I didn't really think much of it because my antenna rotator hasn't been working for a couple weeks. I just figured it was because the antenna was mis-aimed. Also, they didn't have any audio when I checked this morning.

FWIW Haven't noticed any problems with WDTN-DT here when I've been watching.

I agree that they should keep the aspect ratio the same.

On another topic, tonight I watched SVU on WDTN with no problems OTA, but now when I go back to WDTN during Connan I'm still getting about 55% signal, but usually no video or audio. Sometimes the video cuts in and out, but no audio ever. Anybody else?

I had problems with WDTN last night during Leno. Lots of cuts in/out like you said. Didn't check my signal strength. Something wasn't normal.

WHIO was doing it again last night.

They run the closing crawler through most of the HD shows.

I object and last night watched other programing on WKEF.

Wonder why they couldn't just run the crawler on their analog channel? Those who want to view it could turn there breifly to check & then return to HD & enjoy every pixel of their fixed pixel display. Those watching the HD channel would obviously have different expectations for PQ.

Oh well, I guess if you buy the engineers a new toy they will play with it.

Just my 2 dollars.

Wonder why they couldn't just run the crawler on their analog channel?


Unless they end up changing things, there won't be an analog channel in 2 years and 8 days .... IMO, they do need to figure this out ASAP, and they need to do it WITHOUT distorting the video Aspect ratio (again, IMO) .....

Feb 17, 2009 may seem like a long time away, but it really isn't. For instance, I began watching HD from WHIO-DT(and the cincinnati HD stations on the air at them time) in Fall 2001, and it seems like yesterday .....

I am curious why you think they have to figure anything out.

The stations will do exactly what they have been doing with the SD channels when all is said and done.

There is no FCC Rule that HD must be shown on the Digital Channels - and by showing 640x480 with a crawl, they are actually giving you better than you would get with the crawl on an analog channel.

Heck, ShowtimeHD, TBSHD and UniversalHD are running pop ups all over and you pay extra for those. You think the Broadcast Channels will be pure?

Now I don't like it anymore than you, but thats the way it is.

I am curious why you think they have to figure anything out.


Mostly what I was referring to is that since most stations(excluding WHIO-DT currently which can insert the local graphics INTO HD) in this area currently DON'T drop from the Net HD feed to SD to insert the local school closing graphics, Most stations in the area are probably going to need to figure out exactly HOW they are going to do it after analog shut off, and I'd think they should start thinking about that ASAP .....

Otherwise, they don't "have to" figure it out. Other than what the FCC requires them to do, I think they can pretty much do what they want in that regard. I was reffering to my opinion of the distorted pictures, it is not acceptable to me, analog or digital, SD or HD. therefore to also clarify, IN MY OPINION, they need to "figure it out" if they want me to watch their signal during these times.

Not that they give a Rat's a** about my *opinion*, that's not a "FCC requirement" either ;-)


There is no FCC Rule that HD must be shown on the Digital Channels


I'm well aware of that.


- and by showing 640x480 with a crawl, they are actually giving you better than you would get with the crawl on an analog channel.


WHIO-DT can key local HD graphics into HD. They are showing 1920x1080i with school closing graphics squeezed in at bottom(without adjusting horizontal size as necessary to preserve proper aspect ratio), not 640x480.

Again, none of the other stations in Dayton have this capability, and presently, for the most part they are *NOT* dropping from network HD feeds to SD upconvert of their local "analog" SD signal with the school closing info present. Hence, my comments about the situation post analog shut off, as folks who have become accostomed to the current situation are probably going to start seeing the school closings(or other "emergency" related info) info presented more often on the digital services during Network HD feeds after that time, if not earlier(as has already begun from WHIO-DT) ...

As I've already mentioned, in the past I don't recall distorted aspect ratio being an issue from the analog stations in the area when they've inserted school closing graphcis, except the past several years when it's become the norm. So, no, they are not giving me something "better" than what has been the case in the past, or for example, what was the case over the past week from WAVE 3(analog), Louisville, KY, which was properly formatting aspect ratio by adjusting the horizontal size of the picture, accordingly to preserve proper Aspect ratio.

And no, I don't think HD with distorted pictures is "better" than SD *without* distorted pictures, school closings or not, on the analog or digital station.



Now I don't like it anymore than you, but thats the way it is.

It's no big deal, I just turn the channel or turn the TV off.

Heck, ShowtimeHD, TBSHD and UniversalHD are running pop ups all over and you pay extra for those.


1st, NO, I don't pay for those. OTA is my primary means of receiving TV programming(including my only current source of HD), it has been for 40 years, And, hopefully that will continue to be the case. For 6 months in College, I did use cable(the rest of the 4 years I used "rabbit ears"), and for the past 2 years, to supplement OTA+DVD programming, I do subscribe to E*'s AT60(er now AT100 package), without LiL. It's very possible I will discontinue the latter at some point soon for various reasons.

Secondly, as I've already mentioned, my issue is not with "pop ups", nor do I have any problem with local broadcasters providing emergency weather bugs, school closings info or anything of the sort, Including if/when it's necessary to drop to SD to do it. Sure I'd rather not see them a lot of the time they are there, but I'm glad they are providing this info to the public.

Thirdly, as I've already mentioned,, ESPN (SD I don't know about HD) channels key in a graphic similar in size to the "school closing" graphics from the local broadcasters at bottom of screen with score info. It's almost a permanent feature of ESPNNews. They don't distort AR in order to do so without "covering up" too much of the bottom portion of the video, they reduce the horizontal size of the video, accordingly, in order to perserve proper aspect ratio as is necessary since they are reducing the vertical size in order to 'sqeeze in" the scores.

For the third(or 4th) time, My issue is that they are distorting the video content(aspect ratio - Making people look "short and fat" would be one way to describe it) in many cases in this area to do so. That is not necessary in order to provide such info.


You think the Broadcast Channels will be pure?


I don't know what you mean by "pure", again, I have no problem with them providing weather info or school closings or emergency info via "bugs" or "crawls", or pop ups or whatever.

Again, what I'm saying is, FWIW(not much) -- If they want me to watch their signal, they are not going to distort AR of the programming content in the process .... I'm also saying I'm surprised any *professional* provider of video content would even consider distorting the video for such long periods as has been the case around here recently during presention of school closings info, and sometimes weather or other emergency related info.

Especially as they've done it in the past without distorting AR, I've seen other stations which do it now, so I don't see any reason why the Dayton+Cincinnati stations can't do it now as well -- other than, perhaps because of folks who complain that the picture doesn't "fill their screen", or that a portion of the bottom of the "picture" is covered up, depending on the method they use to ensure the video isn't "distorted" .

p.s./addition -- I hope those two posts didn't come off too "harshly" or repetitive, as I've allways found your posts very informative, and 99%+ of the time "right on the mark" ... It's just that at times, it seems I can never "win" with my posts here.

On the one hand, some people don't like it as I do generally usually "support" the broadcaster side of things, as I have some knowledge of it. There is so much misinformation concerning DTV/HD "matters" outhere, including to be found posted on this very forum. So, whereever possible I do try to help folks understand a little of the broadcasters perspective, and that what happens on the station end of this isn't anything like a *plug and play* consumer experience ---- I also understand how difficult this transistion, and some of the issues involved are for broadcasters(just as it is for some viewers, but usually in different ways) --- especially given the "messy" way it's been implemented by "tptb" in some cases.

On the other hand, it seems whenever I say one little thing broadcasters don't like to hear, then I get slammed from them as well, oftentimes it seems merely because they are misunderstanding what I'm saying or the issue I'm addressing, I would say at times it seems some folks are just seeing a few "hot button" words in posts and are just reading those, rather than getting full context. But, I'm a viewer as well who, as a OTA viewer, is being "forced" into the DTV transistion just as much as broadcasters are, so I'm also going to tell things as I see it, and in some cases that is not going to be the same "view" as what broadcasters have.

So, either way, I often end up getting stuck in the middle with this sort of thing ... While I'm used to that sort of thing as it usually seems to end up being an unwritten part of my job description, I do usually get a paycheck for it , that's not the case here ;-)

I'm with Jeff. He has provided a quality info here for years, in a very underrstandable format. I basiclly used OTA for all HD viewing. I do have cable, but just old analog, for about 4 channels that I watch. Cable prices are really getting hard for me to justify. So I'm with the "free" OTA broadcasters.
The only issues I have run into since OTA HD 2003, is trying to decipher, where the reception problems originate: my equipment, local station, Network feed, weather related, attenna, or what??
Jeff has sorted out many of these issues, and simplified for me.

Thanks Jeff,

Jon