can anyone recommend a professional installer in the dayton area for an outdoor HDTV antenna? any experiences with installers to avoid or good experiences would be appreciated.

i know alot of folks on here probably have DIY setups that are as good or better than so-called professional installs. i've toyed with the idea of that, but it is probably beyond my skills. i would like an install that could be a potential selling point to a HDTV lover if i move. i really don't have the time or skills to do something as i describe below. i haven't looked into anything yet, but i thought a satellite installer would probably be a reasonable place to start as they typically have to install OTA's for most people, but since i'm not buying satellite services i don't know how receptive they'll be.

i would also like to have an external OTA coaxial run to a wall outlet in each bedroom and the living room that i could just connect a coaxial cable to and hook to a OTA HDTV tuner, maybe next to each cable coax outlet that could be labelled "OTA" & "cable".

thanks

Jon,

Thanks for the kind comments. I talked to HDTVfanatic a bit via PM, and I believe he misunderstood some of my comments, which was partially my fault because of some of the wording I used.

gkrodgoo,

Some folks have reported good results with OTA antenna installs in Cincinnati thread from an outfit called "TNT pictures", which is based out of Cincinnati. - I don't know their contact info, or if they install in Dayton area, but it might be worth it to look them up. Unfortunetly, it seems many of the Sat installers out there aren't very knowledgable about OTA reception.

I don't know about Dayton, but, I've bought stuff from Dayton Wintronic(who sells OTA equipment to installers, they don't do installs themselves) and if you give them a call, perhaps they might be able to refer you to someone. Here's a link with their contact info/etc.

http://www.wintronic.com/daytonwintronic/index.htm

In any case, do let us know how it turns out, as there are probably others who are reading this thread who are looking for a good, knowledable OTA installer in the area.

@Nitewatchman..

thanks for the info re: Dayton Wintronic. i found their website & contact info, but they're out after 5p. i'll give them a call tomorrow.

i can't find any info on TNT Pictures. i wonder if they changed their name. Google, Yahoo & MS Live all come up empty. Google finds references in it to the AVS Cincinnati thread like you mentioned but no contact info or website info but as you said, they may not be interested in driving to Dayton for an install.

thanks for your suggestions.

gkrodg00,

Concerning TNT pictures - You never know, they *might* service Dayton with a OTA install, It's not that far from them, really. AVSforum member jimp2244 is the last one in Cincy who reported getting a OTA install from them, so if you're interested in going that route you might want to drop him a PM.

Anyway, Found TNT Pictures address+Phone # here :

http://www.google.com/maps?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&q=tnt+pictures&near=Cincinnati,+OH&radius=0.0&latlng=39161944,-84456944,13349892553808203205&sa=X&oi=local&ct=authority&cd=1

And on this (long) list as well, "antennas+antenna towers" is listed as one of their products and services, here :

http://www.a2zcity.com/Cincinnati_OH/index-33.php

ooops, my bad. i saw that listing in the same google locals, but i saw the second review talking about picture frames and completely wrote off the hit. thanks for pointing me back to it.

http://www.tntpicturecompany.com/

http://www.tntpicturecompany.com/

Cool! I've never had any luck finding a website for them. But, You'd never know from anything I found on there, however, that they install OTA.

Anyhow, Thanks for digging that up/finding that+posting the link. BTW, saw the pic frames thing too, and had to go a little farther to make sure it was them ....

Couple of Notes:

WKEF-DT :

Haven't noticed any of the issues from WKEF-DT which were reported on, recently. No "pixelization" for several weeks now, and, I haven't checked it more than a few times in the last 2 weeks between 4 and 7 on weekdays, but at this point I even think the "receiver-reset like" issue that was effecting my ZenithHDV420 receiver every 80 seconds(only between 4pm and 7pm on weekdays between sometime late last November or so and the last week or two) has cleared up.

WKEF/WRGT "In the morning" and school closings info :

Have noticed I like the way WKEF/WRGT are handling the school closing info during their "In the morning" shows(only during those shows as far as I've seen, anyway) ---- They are properly formatting the video AR by resizing the "video window", and Left justifying it(instead of centering it), and putting weather graphics on the right side, as well as the school closings at bottom.

Last night during The Office, WDTN-DT, switched back between the NBC HD and SD feed multiple times. This is the first time I've noticed any issues with WDTN-DT in a long time.

On another note about the crawl on WHIO-DT. I DVR'd Rules of Engagement (Mon 9:30 I think), and during that show, they put up the crawl a number of times for a second or two and then took it down. I'm not sure if they were just doing some sort of testing or what.

WHIO-DT has been experimenting, it seems. If I recall, they would often not run the crawl during the regular TV show but actually inserted during commercial breaks. I used to think that was taboo for TV stations to do !!

I want to say I noticed this during CSI Miami.

Last night during The Office, WDTN-DT, switched back between the NBC HD and SD feed multiple times. This is the first time I've noticed any issues with WDTN-DT in a long time.

This was a NBC network issue, not your local affiliate.

gkrodg00,

Concerning TNT pictures - You never know, they *might* service Dayton with a OTA install, It's not that far from them, really. AVSforum member jimp2244 is the last one in Cincy who reported getting a OTA install from them, so if you're interested in going that route you might want to drop him a PM.



My experience with TNT was pretty good. As long as you understand it's obviously a small shop (you'll see what I mean as soon as you call them). I can't remember exactly what I paid but I think they priced about $215 for antenna install, or $350 or so for antenna install + rotor. I went with the latter option and the rotor seemed to get stuck about 3 days after the install. They came back out and fixed it for free though (actually just re-initialized the rotor, which I had tried several times but apparently this time it worked. No issues since... He did say if it happend again they'd replace the rotor on the roof and I wouldn't have to be home).

The antenna they use is a medium range VHF/UHF combo from Winegard. I never did get the model number as the guy didn't even know. He just said "we never have any trouble with these." Well, it's working fine for me for all analog and digital Cincinnati/Dayton reception, as well as analog 3 from Louisville.

Anyone here with TWC in the Sidney area not receiving a picture or sound on channels 762 and 763 (HDNet and HDNet Movies)?

Anyone here with TWC in the Sidney area not receiving a picture or sound on channels 762 and 763 (HDNet and HDNet Movies)?
Yes, I noticed it over the weekend. My wife wanted to watch So I Married An Axe Murderer and it was nothing but a blank screen.

Thanks for the info, bwentzel.

Edit: I just checked and they've fixed the channels!

Can someone please recommend an antenna I can buy TODAY at a local store so that I can get cincy's CBS station? I cannot BELIEVE that f-in WHIO is going to pre-empt NATIONAL programming for a local piece of crap basketball game that means NOTHING! I am seriously at a loss for words here.

I didn't even realize until last night that they were not going to be showing the "premiere" of Jericho or else I would have acted sooner on this.

Will this one do the trick? U-75R (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103088&cp=&sr=1&origkw=uhf+antenna&kw=uhf+antenna&parentPage=search)

I have the U75R and I suspect it might be a bit on the small side. I know they say, what, 75 miles, but that sounds like under *perfect* conditions. Mine is in the attic, so no chance of getting Cincy stations for me. Someday I'd like to put it outside though....

Lowes usually has a few Channel Master antenna in stock, along with the hardware needed to mount it. There's also Wintronic, off of Dorothy Lane near the Super Walmart (Dorothy and S Dixie area). Not sure what they have in stock vs what they can order though.

Damn! Mine would go in the attic as well. I can get channel 12 analog with just a bowtie, but it's pretty grainy. I was assuming that with anything larger than a bowtie I should be able to clear that up a good bit.

*sigh*

I didn't even realize until last night that they were not going to be showing the "premiere" of Jericho or else I would have acted sooner on this.

You may not have noticed that Jericho will be airing on WHIO-DT after the Late Late show. I'm not trying to dissuade you from purchasing an antenna and getting it installed for just such occasions, but you may want more planning time than just today.

I did notice that but 1) I can't stay up that late, and 2) no dvr. GRR

Seriously, who really cares about UD basketball? And for craps sake they have 3 freakin channels. Put the game on 7 analog and 7.2. Let regular programming proceed as usual on the HD channel.

And for craps sake they have 3 freakin channels. Put the game on 7 analog and 7.2. Let regular programming proceed as usual on the HD channel. That, I agree with. They're in a no-win situation here. If they preempt ch 7 analog, they'll get complaints from OTA analog, standard cable, and standard satellite viewers who don't want to see the b-ball game. If they only show it on 7-1 or 7-2, the previous group who don't have access to digital TV won't get the game.

Also, odds are if they show it in the middle of the night (really, who is that appealing to ?? do they think enough people have VCRs or DVRs ??), it won't be in HD. I'm not sure if WHIO has the equipment to tape-delay HD programming yet.

I did notice that but 1) I can't stay up that late, and 2) no dvr. GRR

What about a good 'ol VCR, do you still have one of those? Another alternative would be CBS's "innertube." You did mention you could pick up WKRC-TV, you could watch it that way as well. Again, just feeding possible alternatives that you probably already considered.

I did notice that but 1) I can't stay up that late, and 2) no dvr. GRR

Seriously, who really cares about UD basketball? And for craps sake they have 3 freakin channels. Put the game on 7 analog and 7.2. Let regular programming proceed as usual on the HD channel.


Maybe you picked the wrong town to live in. This is a college basketball town and more people in Dayton care about the Flyers than some prime time programming dud. St. Louis and UD have had along time rivalry and this should be a good game.

Prepare for more CBS primetime interruptions. Since the suthdown of UPN-17, WHIO has plans to show some Ohio State games carried by ESPN+ that UPN-17 would have normally carried.

The only time I watch local network programming is for college basketball. It would be nice if more was shown not less. Otherwise give me PBS before my brain turns to mush from network programming.

P.S. WHIO paid CSTV alot for the rights to these games. It would be nice to show WHIO some appreciation for actually attempting to meet the FCC's mandate for broadcasting in the interests of its viewing public.

I picked a town to live in that would pay my bills... I DETEST sports, and I think it's rediculous that the channels that are supposed to supply entertainment to the masses pre-empt national TV for a game that appeals to more than likely less than half of their viewing public. If people like the flyers so much, why not buy a ticket and support the team?

That said, this is a lose lose situation. You obviously like sports and I do not. Nothing you can say or do will convince me otherwise much in the same that nothing I can say or do will convice you otherwise.

Back to the original intent of my post what do I need to do here? Obviously I'm out of luck for seeing the show in HD tonight, but I need to do something for the future. Surely someone inside the city limits of Dayton is able to pull in cincy TV stations.

Surely someone inside the city limits of Dayton is able to pull in cincy TV stations. It's certainly possible as my neighbor does it. Of course, he has a fairly large, outdoor antenna that's approx 30' high....

Surely someone inside the city limits of Dayton is able to pull in cincy TV stations.

Can you be more specific as to where inside of the Dayton city limits you live? Possibly the address of a business on the nearest major intersection?

Although my address is considered Dayton City Limits, I live closer to Huber Heights than Dayton. The closest major intersection is brandt pike and harshman/needmore/woodman (whatever the hell it's called at that specific point LOL). However, I live a great deal above hill from that intersection. I can actually clearly see all of the major broadcasting towers from my upstairs windows.

This business address is the closest to my house without giving away where it actually is! I can and have walked to this CVS many times.

4996 Brandt Pike
Huber Heights, OH 45424

I picked a town to live in that would pay my bills... I DETEST sports, and I think it's rediculous that the channels that are supposed to supply entertainment to the masses pre-empt national TV for a game that appeals to more than likely less than half of their viewing public. If people like the flyers so much, why not buy a ticket and support the team?

That said, this is a lose lose situation. You obviously like sports and I do not. Nothing you can say or do will convince me otherwise much in the same that nothing I can say or do will convice you otherwise.

Back to the original intent of my post what do I need to do here? Obviously I'm out of luck for seeing the show in HD tonight, but I need to do something for the future. Surely someone inside the city limits of Dayton is able to pull in cincy TV stations.


Ever think of paying a buck or two on iTunes? I'm pretty sure they have some CBS programming there...

As for Dayton, I'd almost gurantee you that WHIO will get better ratings tonight with the UD game as opposed to the normal CBS programming... Especially with it going up against AI... Also if you have cable, just watch the SD version on CH 12... I do this all the time if something that i want to watch is being pre-empted, usually when a basketball game on WHIO runs over the CBS golf coverage...

I appreciate the help, but do you think that if I had cable I'd be asking about an antenna? :D

I appreciate the help, but do you think that if I had cable I'd be asking about an antenna? :D

just giving you options... you said earlier you didn't have DVR, but said nothing about cable...

Maybe you picked the wrong town to live in. This is a college basketball town and more people in Dayton care about the Flyers than some prime time programming dud. St. Louis and UD have had along time rivalry and this should be a good game.

Prepare for more CBS primetime interruptions. Since the suthdown of UPN-17, WHIO has plans to show some Ohio State games carried by ESPN+ that UPN-17 would have normally carried.

The only time I watch local network programming is for college basketball. It would be nice if more was shown not less. Otherwise give me PBS before my brain turns to mush from network programming.

P.S. WHIO paid CSTV alot for the rights to these games. It would be nice to show WHIO some appreciation for actually attempting to meet the FCC's mandate for broadcasting in the interests of its viewing public.

Appreciation for what taking away regular programming? Yeah that makes sense.

Hey public there is a show that we are supposed to be showing but you know there's a unranked basketball team playing another unranked basketball team and we think it would be better. We heard from the avid fans and they really want to see it..they make up the entire dayton viewing audience.

Kkozma you could watch the show online tomorrow on the CBS website. Might save you a little money also.

I understand where you are coming from though and I'd be upset also if a totally meaningless game such as this one was broadcasted over the regular programming.

I know. I should know better than fully relinquish all of the details of my setup when I ask for help. I run a local VW board and nothing irritates me more than when people ask for help and do not divulge all of the details of their problems etc etc...

I have Satellite and recieve local programming via OTA. :)

You could "move" to Cincinnati so that you receive Cincy locals via satellite and then use the antenna to pick the Dayton locals.

As for showing the UD game(s), we've went over this in this thread before, have we not (before your time here, I presume, kkozma) ?? Right or wrong, WHIO has made their decision... Come 8pm or whatever time, all the Jericho fans in the Dayton area need to call the station and complain. To really ire them, note the advertisers during the game or commercials and call them to tell them you won't buy their product. Read off the list to the person at WHIO to remind them that you won't buy from these companies (advertisers) either.

Appreciation for what taking away regular programming? Yeah that makes sense.

Hey public there is a show that we are supposed to be showing but you know there's a unranked basketball team playing another unranked basketball team and we think it would be better. We heard from the avid fans and they really want to see it..they make up the entire dayton viewing audience.

I could care less about UD Flyer basketball, but with that said, there are many people that do, and there are other options for people who want to see the regular programming, such as: Ch 12 via cable or OTA, watch it later in the evening (live or DVR/TIVO), download it via download services, wait for the DVD... WHIO is not taking the programming away from you, they are just making it a little more difficult for people to access it...

I know WXIX in Cincy does the "Bearcat Bounce" when UC games are being broadcast, and I'd imagine that this happens in almost every single DMA in the country... It's not going away any time soon, no matter how much you bitch about it here, so just deal with it and utilize your other options...

Although my address is considered Dayton City Limits, I live closer to Huber Heights than Dayton. The closest major intersection is brandt pike and harshman/needmore/woodman (whatever the hell it's called at that specific point LOL). However, I live a great deal above hill from that intersection. I can actually clearly see all of the major broadcasting towers from my upstairs windows.

Well, antennaweb.org says you need a large directional antenna with a pre-amp to reliably pick up WKRC-DT from 53miles away. This is the same site that says I cannot pick up Dayton stations at all from my address, so that that with a grain of salt.

Is there anyone that lives near this area that can make an antenna recommendation?

I could care less about UD Flyer basketball, but with that said, there are many people that do, and there are other options for people who want to see the regular programming, such as: Ch 12 via cable or OTA, watch it later in the evening (live or DVR/TIVO), download it via download services, wait for the DVD... WHIO is not taking the programming away from you, they are just making it a little more difficult for people to access it...

I know WXIX in Cincy does the "Bearcat Bounce" when UC games are being broadcast, and I'd imagine that this happens in almost every single DMA in the country... It's not going away any time soon, no matter how much you bitch about it here, so just deal with it and utilize your other options...

Seriously it would be a battle of semantics to further engage your comments on channel 7 not taking anything away so I wont.

I agree if you want to watch something else then you must make the sacrifices to do so. It doesn't change the fact though that I think it makes little sense in this instance on the programming switch.

You could "move" to Cincinnati so that you receive Cincy locals via satellite and then use the antenna to pick the Dayton locals.

As for showing the UD game(s), we've went over this in this thread before, have we not (before your time here, I presume, kkozma) ?? Right or wrong, WHIO has made their decision... Come 8pm or whatever time, all the Jericho fans in the Dayton area need to call the station and complain. To really ire them, note the advertisers during the game or commercials and call them to tell them you won't buy their product. Read off the list to the person at WHIO to remind them that you won't buy from these companies (advertisers) either.

At first I was like, I'm not moving to cincy, but then I got the gist of your post.. ;) lol

Yeah, I was sure this has been discussed before, but my god this thread is 143 pages. I would like to read through it all though. Any idea about what pages or so I should look in to? I do plan on calling to complain tonight when Jerhico is supposed to be on, but getting a list of advertisers would mean I'd have to watch that stupid game! lol.

Terry, I looked into antennaweb and saw that too... I just have a hard time accepting that any antenna larger than the bowtie I'm using now would NOT recieve cincy's stations as I can get 12 now in analog, but its very fuzzy. I also get 64 WSTR DT with my bowtie and that station is 40 miles away at 70% signal strength, so I would assume that 15 more miles should be possible with anything bigger than what I have. I guess in the long run, it's only $25 for that U75R and if it doesn't work out, I can always return it, eh?

Appreciation for what taking away regular programming? Yeah that makes sense.

Hey public there is a show that we are supposed to be showing but you know there's a unranked basketball team playing another unranked basketball team and we think it would be better. We heard from the avid fans and they really want to see it..they make up the entire dayton viewing audience.

I understand where you are coming from though and I'd be upset also if a totally meaningless game such as this one was broadcasted over the regular programming.

Need I remind you that the team playing tonight is the Dayton Flyers. Attendance at Dayton Flyers' games has been in the top 25 nationally for more years than I can remember. WHIO has been broadcasting the Flyers since well before I was born. This game has been scheduled for months now by WHIO, so it is not switiching anything. WHIO gets good ratings for these games otherwise it wouldn't make sense to preempt national programming. This is an away game for the Flyers so ratings will be even higher. Its a rivalry game. Although neither team is ranked, the game is still important for the A-10 tournament seedings.

The University of Dayton is one of the best things that the city of Dayton has going for it. Maybe you should consider rooting for the University in your backyard that is an asset to the community that also puts a good basketball team on the floor and actually graduates its players.

So is it too much to ask for you and the few other people to set their VCR to record Jelico when its broadcast later tonight while the majority of us Daytonians cheer on the Flyers? Thanks.

Yeah, I was sure this has been discussed before, but my god this thread is 143 pages. I would like to read through it all though. Any idea about what pages or so I should look in to? Yes, these never-ending threads can be rather ridiculous, but.... There's very little point in starting at page 1 and reading the entire thing, IMO. You will read about an "issue" on page 1 that's resolved on page 3, both of which were YEARS ago. I'd suggest going back no more than 3 months or so. Otherwise, search the thread.
I guess in the long run, it's only $25 for that U75R and if it doesn't work out, I can always return it, eh? You said you've got satellite, so where is that dish mounted ?? Is it possible for you to attach the U75R to the mast of your dish ?? You could run your cabling right along the dish's cabling, there should be a way to ground it there, and so on. That antenna is really lightweight, so I wouldn't worry about it affecting the dish's mounting or alignment.

Need I remind you that the team playing tonight is the
So is it too much to ask for you and the few other people to set their VCR to record Jelico when its broadcast later tonight while the majority of us Daytonians cheer on the Flyers? Thanks.

I could say the same for you. Record the game and watch it later. It's a neverending argument. At least you won't miss out on it being in HD.

Although I will admit I did not know it was an away game probably because I could care less. I suppose it's Ok in this situation. HOWEVER!! The game is NOT being broadcast in HD, so why not show regular programming on the HD channel? There's NO good reason for them not to other than sheer laziness in not setting up their equipment to do so...

Funny... people in Cincinnati complain that not enough Reds games are on regular TV (This year I believe it is only 1, on Fox on a Saturday). They wish every game was on Channel 5, 9, 12, or 19. They don't want to pay to see the local team, especially for away games.

As browerjs and dc10 stated, UD gets good ratings in town. WHIO would probably put more games on TV but they are limited in the number of times they can preempt network programming.

Lastly, it is amazing that people threaten to boycott the advertisers of UD basketball game because of a business decision by WHIO. Obviously WHIO believes they will make more money off showing the UD game than by showing CBS national programming. I don't know what you would have done 20 years ago when WHIO showed 15 UD games a year, if not more...

Funny... people in Cincinnati complain that not enough Reds games are on regular TV (This year I believe it is only 1, on Fox on a Saturday). They wish every game was on Channel 5, 9, 12, or 19. They don't want to pay to see the local team, especially for away games.

As browerjs and dc10 stated, UD gets good ratings in town. WHIO would probably put more games on TV but they are limited in the number of times they can preempt network programming.

Lastly, it is amazing that people threaten to boycott the advertisers of UD basketball game because of a business decision by WHIO. Obviously WHIO believes they will make more money off showing the UD game than by showing CBS national programming. I don't know what you would have done 20 years ago when WHIO showed 15 UD games a year, if not more...

20 years ago I would have been 13 and would have cared even less about sports than I do now. I was all about RC Cars and Skateboarding back then. Further, 20 years ago there wouldn't have been a TV show on primetime that if you missed one week you would be clueless the next week. Yes, I hate admitting I am that addicted to a TV show, but I've been waiting for 7 weeks for this show to come back on and the very first night it's back on. BAM! WHIO's gonna show a stupid basketball game that you WILL catch hilites for on the 11:00 news, or hell 10:00 if you want to watch FOX.

I also forgot to reply to Hall's last post. My dish is mounted directly to my roof, so there's no way I could mount an antenna to the dish mast. Plus as I've mentioned before I am petrified of heights and there's now way I could bring myself to go up there! lol

So is it too much to ask for you and the few other people to set their VCR to record Jelico when its broadcast later tonight while the majority of us Daytonians cheer on the Flyers? Thanks.

I don't know I don't watch Jericho...kkozma does. I don't have to set my vcr for anything, heck I don't know where my VCR is. I just thought it was backwards to play a basketball game over a season premier. Especially when the basketball game really has very little value other then to have avid UD fans root on there 6-6 team which they can do when they are in town playing.

The only thing we can all do here is agree to disagree.

Seriously, this "I must have the last word" battle about preempting programming for sports has gone on long enough. Please, to all those involved, drop it.

I don't know I don't watch Jericho...kkozma does. I don't have to set my vcr for anything, heck I don't know where my VCR is. I just thought it was backwards to play a basketball game over a season premier. Especially when the basketball game really has very little value other then to have avid UD fans root on there 6-6 team which then can do when they are in town playing.

The only thing we can all do here is agree to disagree.

I don't think it's actually a season premiere... it's a show coming back from a hiatus of a few weeks, 7 based on kkozma's last post... And even if it was, WHIO probably had the game on it's schedule before CBS had the schedule for it's 2/21/07 programming...

But to get back on topic... I do think that WHIO could utilize it's subchannels and digital stations to multicast regular CBS programming (I hope this get's back to Dayton/Lima, OH HDTV) :)

But to get back on topic... I do think that WHIO could utilize it's subchannels and digital stations to multicast regular CBS programming (I hope this get's back to Dayton/Lima, OH HDTV) :)


Totally agree :D

I don't think it's actually a season premiere... it's a show coming back from a hiatus of a few weeks, 7 based on kkozma's last post... And even if it was, WHIO probably had the game on it's schedule before CBS had the schedule for it's 2/21/07 programming...

But to get back on topic... I do think that WHIO could utilize it's subchannels and digital stations to multicast regular CBS programming (I hope this get's back to Dayton/Lima, OH HDTV) :)

CBS is calling it a premiere according to the commercials they've been airing.... And actually now that I look, its been TEN weeks since the last new episode.

Anyhoo, I'm trired of arguing about it myself. I think its lame others don't. End of subject.

Why couldn't they multicast? They broadcast that totally useless weather channel 24/7 at the same time as standard CBS programming. That comes from a different source just like this basketball game will.

Why couldn't they multicast? They broadcast that totally useless weather channel 24/7 at the same time as standard CBS programming. That comes from a different source just like this basketball game will.

I was reading over in the American Idol HD thread, and it seems that some network affiliates in the country are doing the multicasting of regular network programming when they preempt for local programming...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9842527&&#post9842527

I don' t know if I'm allowed to mention torrents here but I will, and a mod can delete if they want, but you could always download the torrent of a tv show the day after it airs. Although true HD torrents are harder to find, good resolution ones are not.

With that said, back to Dayton HD... I noticed this a few days ago but I've been too busy to get on here, but I lost Starz Cinema on 80-8. Anybody else? Did it just move, or is it encrypted now?

WKRC analog transmits on Channel 12, which is VHF. No wonder its "grainy" on a UHF bowtie from ~50 miles away. VHF Rabbit ears would be better for that one.

WKRC-DT (digital/HD) transmits on Channel 31, which is UHF, as it stands right now, they are going to move the digital to VHF 12 after analog shut off(currently scheduled for 2/17/2009), and WCPO-DT(ABC HD Cincy) will also remain on their current VHF channel 10 assignment. WSYX-DT 13 (ABC HD Columbus), and WLIO-DT 8 (NBC HD? Lima) are the other two VHF digitals(that will stay there after analog shut off, as it looks now) of interest to some in Dayton area, depending upon location/etc. Dunno about all the LP stations yet, or any possibilities for new stations after analog shut off, but Everything else digital/HD in the area is+as it looks right now, will be on UHF after analog shut off.

Anyway, If WSTR-DT(transmits on UHF channel 33/remaps to 64.1) can be receieved with kkzmo's current indoor antenna, WKRC-DT is only about 5 miles farther away, transmitting more power but from a slightly lower(if I recall correctly) transmitting antenna height -- So, it's certianly possible WKRC-DT could be received with an indoor antenna(perhaps a better one or+preamp, although be careful with the latter as the nearby dayton stations could be "overload" issues) as well -- But, I wouldn't count on it.

Outdoor directional antenna is usually a good idea anyway, especially beyond 15 miles or so from transmitters. That "15 mile" thing is just a general rule of thumb that somewhat corresponds very roughly to Stations "city grade"(in other words "blow torch" signal levels) signal contours(The "yellow" code in antenna web would correspond roughly to this as well) :

For instance, we've had folks in N KY having no problems with the Dayton stations with Yagi's+preamps in the attic, and a fellow in Englewood with a settop antenna has reported picking up most of the Cincy stations just fine. And, keep in mind there's a lot more to getting good reception than "signal strength", and outdoor antennas can be a must in some cases for folks even very close to the towers(severe multipath or terrain obstruction issues/etc).

As for multicasting, all stations have to work with is a 19.39Mb/s data payload, that number can't be "increased" with the system we use for DTV, and our current(and past) receivers only support MPEG2, so broadcasters can't move to using a more efficient codec without everyone needing a new STB(or TV). Broadcasters are required to send a signal at least "equivlent in quality" to the analog signal, free to air via their digital signal via MPEG2. In other words, they could send a 2~3Mb/s or so 480i 4x3 SD free to air via MPEG2, and use the rest of their bandwidth for "whatever" -- HD for a monthly fee via MPEG4(and a "rented" box to receive/decode it), or for datacasting/podcasting or whatever they might be able to come up with to make some $ off of DTV ....

anyway, What I've seen 720p HD+ 1 SD subchannel can work well+still provide excellent HD quality, but 1080i+any multicasting can be(and is from what I've seen from the stations doing it currently in this area) a problem during bandwidth demanding portions of programming. So, in other words, as it pertains to HD quality, I'd rather see less multicasting around here, not more of it.

FOX HD is distributed to the affiliates as ATSC compliant stream(a "splicer" is used at the affilate to "splice it" into the Local stream - which effectively bypasses the local encoder). FOX HD is setup so there is room for stations to fit in one Multicast SD subchannel, not two -They would have to do a decode/reencode process for FOX HD for that, which would likely involve diminished HD quality, at least during bandwidth demanding portions of programming . WRGT-DT runs "MyTV" on their subchannel, WXIX-DT(FOX HD Cincy) runs the Tube. I don't think it's likely they would want to "preempt" the regular schedule on those to air Fox programming.

^^^ Wow, thanks Jeff!

Anyways, I picked up the u75r last night and rigged it up in my attic. As luck would have it, I got every channel EXCEPT for the one I was looking for. DOH! My reciever would only grab about 25% strength off channel 31 (WKRC-DT) no matter what I did and would not tune in.

Anyways, knowing full well that channel 12 is VHF I decided to try it anyways and to my surprise it was VERY watchable. Only slightly grainy, much better than trying to keep my sorry butt up until 1:30AM, crappy VHS quality, or watching a 3" high screen at work today. So I was able to watch Jericho and I was happy.

I am determined to get that station in HD though, so I picked up a channel master pre-amp today in hopes that it will provide the extra oomph I need to get that 25% up to where my reciever will lock in and tune in. FYI: I got channel 5 (which ever that one is) no problem with no dropouts at all @ 35% strength.

i had originally asked for references 9 days ago. so here is my experience on my professional OTA install from http://www.tntpicturecompany.com/

i am in the centerville area. i had been using a $20 zenith ota for my digital tuners to receive nbc in hd as twc doesn't offer it. thanks to nitewatchman for the reference.

last week, i sent an email from their website describing what i wanted and i hadn't heard back from them and i called. i got a voicemail and hung up. about an hour later the owner called back, noting a missed call from my number. i told him what i was interested in and he remembered the email, but hadn't had a chance to respond. he gave me a ballpark on the labor and the price for the antenna (fixed, no rotor), a winegard (don't know the model) but i'm guessing its the the HD7210P (http://www.winegard.com/offair/vhfuhf.htm). his install man showed up this morning around 9am and knew generally what i wanted. we talked for a bit and i showed him around. he spent about 30 minutes checking my rooms and then started to get setup. we decided on the attic as opposed to an outside mount. i live in a condo, 3BR + 1 living room i wanted a dedicated outlet in each room for OTA reception. he worked quickly, i was surprised he didn't have more trouble snaking the coax to each room. he really got started around 10am and he finished around 2:30pm.

i am getting Dayton NBC, CBS, ABC FOX, PBS, CW all in HD with signals of 94%, i also to my surprise and delight get 64 out of cincy which carries the UK basketball games that are the uk baskeball network, local-only broadcast that i can't get in Dayton. I get this channel at 75% and watched it for over 30 minutes with no drop out or pixelization. no other cincy channels coming in yet, but i'm more than happy with that.

Cost: $225 for the antenna + $220 for the install; Total: $474.53

I highly recommend them and am very, very pleased with the results.

*********************
OTA HDTV Gear:
Sony DHG-HDD500 OTA+CABLE DVR + 55" Toshiba HD-Ready 2000 Model Rear Projector

Pioneer 43" PDP-4340 2004 Model Plasma

kkozma,

You're probably just a Db or two from a lock. You might just need to find a "sweet spot" to put the antenna for best reception of WKRC-DT ... a little left/right/up down/etc can do wonders. Another basic "general rule of thumb" -- Having antenna indoors vs. outdoors on roof will generally attenuate signals by about -20db - That's probably generally pretty accurate for antenna in attic with nothing but wood+shingles to "aim through" -- Of course, that's just a conservative "rule of thumb" thing, as attenuation could be less than that, especially if you could "aim" the antenna through a window.

Still, that's a lot of attenuation, when you consider the best of broadband UHF antennas out there provide at best about 15~20db of gain -- In other words, "roughly speaking" your bowtie antenna placed outdoors could likely provide more signal than the best of antennas placed indoors -- YMMV .....

Oh, BTW --- Best to put the preamp as close to antenna as possible, running an A/C extension cord in the attic if necessary/depending upon what sort of amp you picked up ----- Just hope it doesn't cause "overload" problems/issues for you involving the closer/much stronger Dayton stations .....

Well, if it does it'll go back. My goal here is to eventually get the antenna outside when I pick up a vhf add on for it. Probably by then I won't even need the pre-amp...

The one I got is a Channel Master Spartan 3 3041 DSB. Does the plug in piece need to go by the antenna or does it act as a power injector so that I can put it where ever I want?

no other cincy channels coming in yet, but i'm more than happy with that.


Of course, getting antenna outside would probably be a "plus" for Cincinnati reception -- and also, if they didn't use a amp, splitting the signal several times for the multiple runs to different rooms will cut quite a bit of signal as well ....

BUT, You're biggest problem there(whether antenna is in attic or outdoors) is that from Centerville, Dayton Stations are to your WNW, Cincinnati is to your SW or SSW - Therefore you would need different antenna aiming(rotor - probably wouldn't work too well in attic with a VHF/UHF combo antenna, unless you have a really large attic!), or seperate Cincy/Dayton antennas(seperate feedlines to each room from each antenna with a/b switch before receiver).

Even though he's farther away, kkzoma is at an advantage because both the Dayton+Cincinnati stations are roughly in the same direction from his location(Huber heights/etc).

Directional antennas greatly reject signals(and multipath, thankfully) coming in off the back+side(the greatest "nulls" are usually right off the side, between 60~90 degrees, or 120 and 150 degrees) "off target" of where the antenna is aimed - about right where the Cincy stations are from centerville if you have the antenna aimed at the Dayton towers.

Non-directional antennas are generally fairly useless for TV reception, and really, even "rabbit ears" or a UHF folded dipole(wire in shape of a bowtie, basically) or UHF "loop" antennas, or those dish "clip on" antennas have a fair amount of directivity .... a vertical "whip" antenna(such as radio antennas on Car fenders), extented vertically would be about the only example of a truly "non-directional" antenna ... They can work well for FM, because FM stations transmit a good amount of their signals as vertically polarized(they usually send a bit of power Horizontally polarized as well), BUT TV(including DTV/HD) stations OTOH, with few exceptions(some, like WXIX-DT in Cincinnati use either Circular or elliptical polarization), send their signals with horizontal polarization only .

Anyhow WSTR (64/DT 33) is about 5~6 miles north of the other Cincy stations, which might help you a bit concerning getting it off the "side" of the antenna. I'm not sure if it is on air currently or not, but there is a licensed analog LP translator for WSTR on channel 66(callsign W66AQ) in Dayton. Sinclair submitted an app to FCC about a year ago to move W66AQ to channel 22, by "repurposing" the existing WKEF 22(analog) facilities for it (FCC has taken no action on it as of yet) -- I ASSUME they mean for after analog shut off(which applies to full service stations on feb 17,2009, not Low power analog stations -- although those are beginning the process of transistioning to digital as well), when WKEF will no longer be transmitting on 22.



I highly recommend them and am very, very pleased with the results.


Good news, I'm glad it worked out well for you -- especially given the multiple coax runs to seperate rooms/etc.

The one I got is a Channel Master Spartan 3 3041 DSB.


Good choice --- That one is a "mast mount" type preamp, and it has a 300ohm input, so, instead of a "matching transformer/balun" you'll need a short piece of twinlead between the antenna+preamp.

Hard to say, but when using a 300ohm antenna(as most are, including U-75R) the impedance matching(for 300 Ohm balanced feed from antenna to 75 Ohm unbalanced coax) being done "in" the preamp is probably "better", and probably results in less loss across the entire VHF/UHF range of frequencies than is the case with a ferrite core balun(matching transformer).

Oh, BTW, I think the FM trap on it is probably set to "in"(engaged) at the factory, which is probably how you want it set.



Does the plug in piece need to go by the antenna or does it act as a power injector so that I can put it where ever I want?

The "plug in piece" -- the power supply(or power "injector") supplies the power to the preamp via the coax, so You can pretty much put it whereever you want between the preamp+the receiver --- EXCEPT that you can't have any splitters or anything else in the line between the power supply("injector") and the preamp that will "block" the DC power(+18VDC) being sent via the coax. The preamp won't work at all if it can't get any power, and in fact, if it isn't powered, signals will be GREATLY attenuated vs. not having a preamp at all, as the circuitry in the preamp, if unpowered pretty much "blocks" signals greatly(by about -60db or more) ....

Let us know how it goes!

Awesome. Thanks for the help...

Hopefully this all works and I can find a friggen piece of twinlead in my house long enough to hook up the preamp! If not, the extra pair of bunny ears I have will be loosing it's tail! lol

Anyways, I picked up the u75r last night and rigged it up in my attic. As luck would have it, I got every channel EXCEPT for the one I was looking for. DOH! My reciever would only grab about 25% strength off channel 31 (WKRC-DT) no matter what I did and would not tune in.....

One thing to remember is that you're aiming practically straight through WRGT-DT's tower when trying to pick up WKRC-DT. A much stronger adjacent channel can give you problems. I know I have antenna aiming issues when I try to watch either WXIX-DT or WKRC-DT which are on either side of WRGT-DT.

Paul

Anyways, I picked up the u75r last night and rigged it up in my attic. As luck would have it, I got every channel EXCEPT for the one I was looking for. DOH! Damn you ! :D Same antenna, mounted in attic, and I'm closer, but don't get Cincy stations.... I suspect my roofing material is to blame, of course but I still might try repositioning the antenna up there in the attic again and see what happens.

As Jeff mentioned, the Dayton and Cincy stations are generally in the same direction. For me though, the Dayton stations are almost due west while the Cincy ones are south-southwest, as I recall. If I turn my antenna more south, I have trouble with the northern-most Dayton station (WHIO, I believe).

Well, I do live on a pretty good elevation and my house is on the downslope, so I imagine that has a great deal to do with it. I'm higher than you are, lol. The one thing I can think of that my house does sit north south and it has huge 3' x 3' eve vents which I would assume let a good bit of signal "in".

I was pretty shocked with just guestimating where I needed to aim that thing of what I got... Getting ready to head home for the day, you guys might hear me yelling for joy if this preamp works! lol

One thing to remember is that you're aiming practically straight through WRGT-DT's tower when trying to pick up WKRC-DT. A much stronger adjacent channel can give you problems. I know I have antenna aiming issues when I try to watch either WXIX-DT or WKRC-DT which are on either side of WRGT-DT.

Paul

Paul, I'd meant to ask you previously, but had forgotten --- Did you notice if that situation became worse for you when WRGT-DT went to "full power" around, if I recall correctly, spring/summer of 05?

Also, it might even be a bit worse for kkzoma's location than for yours, regarding a bit more power perhaps thrown his way in regards to WRGT-DT's directional antenna pattern.

"theoretically" -- FCC says it should work just fine as long as the difference between the signal strengths of the two, 1st adjacent channel stations are 46db or less ...

In fact, it's part of their rules concerning interference protection between stations, so "theoretically", If you're within the coverage areas for the Cincinnati stations as shown on the contour/service area maps on FCC site(which generally reach about or a little north of I-70 in Dayton area), it shouldn't be a problem ...

Especially so perhaps given that(at this point anyway) FCC seems to be just fine with it now, and post analog shut off with WXIX-DT on 29 and WRGT-DT on 30 ..... If I recall correctly, WRGT originally elected to use 45 for their digital post-analog shut off, but FCC said there was an interference conflict if they did that, so they had to change their election back to 30 ... I dunno what that conflict was, specifically, but I suspect/speculate it's possible WXIN-DT 45(staying on 45 after analog shut off, their analog is on 59 and out of core), Indianapolis may have been involved ....

That's only "theoretically" of course, I suppose it's possible Real world, "practical" results may vary ... For example, perhaps some models of "tuners" may be better than others when it comes to selectivity issues such as these ... And of course, while a preamp is generally usually desireable for a weaker signal 50 miles away, it may make the weaker, first adjacent channe signal more difficult to "pull out of the mud" than the case w/o a preamp, especially if the stronger nearby stations are so strong as to create IMD or "desense" issues ... With antenna indoors however, hopefully the Dayton signals aren't quite strong enough for overload issues to be a issue for Kkzoma ...

Paul, I'd meant to ask you previously, but had forgotten --- Did you notice if that situation became worse for you when WRGT-DT went to "full power" around, if I recall correctly, spring/summer of 05?...

I didn't realize that's what it was, but I do have a MUCH harder time with WXIX-DT than I used to. WKRC-DT seems to be a bit better, but I think they raised their power. When WRGT-DT is down for repairs, I can aim the antenna anywhere within a 90 degree window and pick up both of them! :D

I know some receivers are more selective, but I have problems with three different ones; a Zenith like yours, Jeff, an old Samsung 1st generation, and a new Panny built-in to the TV.

Paul

When WRGT-DT is down for repairs, I can aim the antenna anywhere within a 90 degree window and pick up both of them!

That certianly is a good example of the issue! Especially as, if I recall correctly you're using CM3671 outdoors with rotor and with no preamp ...

Would be interesting to know exactly what the signal levels(such as in dBmV/etc - probably need a spectrum analyzer for that for DTV) of those 3 stations are for you, and the differences between them, and/or if there may be other issues other than purely "signal strength" differences related to this first adjacent channel issue which could be exacerbating things as well ..

I would also not be surprised at all if the difference is 46db or more at some locations(with a directional receive antenna that also pretty much meets fcc "planning factors") relatively near the Dayton antenna farm, with the Cincy stations not that much different in heading ....

Add a little terrain or other signal attenuation issue that might result in an even weaker signal from WKRC-DT that doesn't effect WRGT-DT(or not as much) because it's nearer, and that "signal difference" between the two could get even larger ....

I know 46db difference sounds like a lot(and it is), but 4~15 miles from the towers, having 60db or more signal than you need for "perfect DTV reception" should be quite typical, and 80~100db+ more than needed is not out of the question ....

Since we only need about 16DB S/N for perfect DTV reception(on UHF, that is supposed to roughly be equivilent to the 41dbu signal contour as shown on FCC site - given directional antenna with 10db of gain at 30ft above ground, 100ft RG6 coax), It doesn't take too much "math" to figure out how in some cases a weaker signal(even within the coverage area) on a 1st adjacent channel *could* potenially be 46db weaker than the stronger "next door" station ....

I'm new to the forums and I know a lot of these questions I have have probably been answered,but I feel it hard to wade through 144 pages to find stuff.First of all,I live in Clark County near Donnelsville(US40) so you know the location.I recently bought a Sanyo HT30746 30 inch Flat Screen HDTV.I went to Radio Shack and bought a VU190XT antenna.It is up about 15-18 ft. for now on a mast pole that houses my Scanner Antenna(Off to the side) and my 2m-440 Ham Antenna.I use RG6 cable from the antenna to the TV's Digital input and TWC basic cable(no box) to analog side.Now here's what is up.I like a lot of others here have been cheesed about WBNS-WHIO(Only 2 CBS we get on cable,no WKRC)doing basketball instead of CBS stuff.I won't revive that debate.I get all the Dayton SD stuff on TWC as well as all Columbus SD(only exception is Fox 19 rather than Fox 28).So without a rotor yet,I have the antenna aimed at Cincinnati at about 212-218.The way it is set up,I can get all the Dayton HD fine(2,7,16,22,45).Cincinnati wise,I have been able to get the TV to detect 5,12,14,19,48,and 64(no 9).Problem is that after that(due to conditions I believe),I lost 14,19,and 12.I also hear that 14's digital is sent from 19's tower in Newport.The main item is this....If I put the antenna up at a height of about 30',will I be able to get everything better than at what it is now?Also,I bought a signal amplifier at Wal-Mart and when I hooked it up made things worse.What is a good preamp to have that can be almost guaranteed to work?Also,anyone know if WDTN will ever do a Weather Plus Channel like 4 and 5?I have no word from WDTN yet.WHIO says they will soon be local with 7 Weather Now rather than 100% Accu-Weather per Jamie Simpson in an e-mail.Last Item,if I get it the antenna to 30 ft,will I have a chance of using a rotor and getting WLIO out of Lima?Columbus should be no trouble in some respects except for the Sinclair silliness.Have a great day!I think I'll enjoy it here. - Kaci :)

The chief engineer at WDTN told me in November "At this time, WDTN does not plan to carry NBC Weather Plus".

Your TV has a QAM tuner but maybe it doesn't have enough RF inputs. If you connect your Time Warner feed to the "digital" input and do a channel scan, you should pick up all of the Dayton local's digital channels, except WDTN. Not sure if you can diplex the antenna and TW feeds together or if the "analog" input in fact works for digital inputs too.

I can't answer much regarding the antenna, but one of that size shouldn't have any trouble reaching the stations you mention based on what others have been able to receive. Of course, it may not be high enough, there may be obstructions, etc, etc...

Figured I'd chime in here. I think that pre-amp I got was a dud. It did absolutely nothing except make everything worse. I lost WSTR-DT completely, and WHIO's strength dropped to less than 40%. I was getting power to the preamp and here's the kicker, it seemed to make little or no difference if my antenna was hooked up to the pre-amp or not!

I'm going to exchange it for another one and try again. If it doesn't work I give up. :(

Okay. I know that this could fit better on other boards, but to be honest this is the one that I always look at and trust. Most of you guys really know your stuff and help out ignorant folks such as myself.

2 Days ago I bought a http://http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL027778&pathId=80&page=2 (JVC 32x667

I hooked it up to the coax (time warner cable) and it went through an analog scan and a digital scan. All the analog show up fine and nothing shows up on the digital side.

I talked to jvc and at first they told me that i needed a cable box. I told them that i didnt think so- that this set had an atsc/qam tuner built in and I should be able to pick up the unscrammbled channels. She got a supervisor and he listened in as I explained it again and then she said that I should get it serviced or take it back. I plan on taking it back, but want to make sure that this tv (without a box) will pick up all of the analog tw channels and then the hdtv channels that are unscrammbled. Basically, I dont want to go into BB and look like a moron because I didnt understand what I was talking about..........

Thanks for your help!

The chief engineer at WDTN told me in November "At this time, WDTN does not plan to carry NBC Weather Plus".

Your TV has a QAM tuner but maybe it doesn't have enough RF inputs. If you connect your Time Warner feed to the "digital" input and do a channel scan, you should pick up all of the Dayton local's digital channels, except WDTN. Not sure if you can diplex the antenna and TW feeds together or if the "analog" input in fact works for digital inputs too.

I can't answer much regarding the antenna, but one of that size shouldn't have any trouble reaching the stations you mention based on what others have been able to receive. Of course, it may not be high enough, there may be obstructions, etc, etc...
Hall,
The TV has 2 inputs,Analong and digital.It has 3 audio/video inputs and an HDMI input
I hooked the TWC cable to the digital side and ended up with WHIO,WRGT,WCET,WPTD,WPTO,and TNT.Also,I can do digital cable or digital antenna.Not both.TV will hold one database only.I was able to get a "lock" on WPTO for a short bit but it is on the fringe and was pixellated and prone to freeze.But I am still wondeing if any of these "amps" really boost signal or if they just work to keep a signal at a level strength over the run of a cable.Anyhow,I just have the figuring that if I raise it to 30-40' and maybe put a mast mounted amp with it I'll be able to get the channels I am after.My dream system would be a 75-80' tower,a rotor,and the antenna I have with a mast mounted amp for the "Locals" and maybe get DirecTV for the satellite stuff.Time Warner seems to keep raisng the price of the bill without any better "basic" service.But thanks for the info.It tells me a little of what I was asking.Also,did I catch someone saying there was a place in Dayton that sold antennas and other stuff?

Update....12:05 AM on this Sat. morning and all of a sudden I am getting WKRC,WPTO,and WXIX(12.1,12.2,14.1,14.2,14.3,14.4,19.1.19.2) I just wish it would "lock" and stay. :-)

But I am still wondeing if any of these "amps" really boost signal or if they just work to keep a signal at a level strength over the run of a cable.


Preamp can't increase the amount of signal at the antenna, but can compensate for feedline losses(about -4db per 100FT of RG6 on UHF) and splitters/etc(about -3.5db for each 2 way splitter in line), and can lower the NF(noise figure) of your entire receive system - most good mast mount preamps(from CM, Winegard, Blonder-Tongue) have a noise figure of around 3~4db or so, whearas the noise figures of our tuners(analog or digital) are more in the range of 7~10db.

There's a better, more write up of how preamps can be benefical(Note - Although the first part of this page deals with DX signal propagation, what he says later about equipment is benefical for reception of weak, local signals just as it is for DX) at this page :

http://www.geocities.com/toddemslie/UHF-TV-DX.html


Also,did I catch someone saying there was a place in Dayton that sold antennas and other stuff?

Dayton Wintronic(If you've been a Ham for a while, you might remember them as "Shrepco" back in the 70's and 80's) carries Channel Master's full line of stuff.(antennas, preamps, all sorts of stuff). They carry some stuff from other manufacturers as well(such as Blonder-tongue). It's been a couple of years since I bought anything from them, but at least at that time they sold to individuals as well as contractors/etc, and will order for you if they don't have something in stock. Here's a link :

http://www.wintronic.com/daytonwintronic/index.htm

There's a winegard distrubutor in Dayton as well(I've bought a couple of things from them as well, but again it's been a while) Rankin+Houser on E River Rd.

Their Phone+address will pop up via a search here:

http://www.winegard.com/dealer/dealer_search.htm

2 Days ago I bought a http://http://www.jvc.com/product.jsp?modelId=MODL027778&pathId=80&page=2 (JVC 32x667

I told them that i didnt think so- that this set had an atsc/qam tuner built in and I should be able to pick up the unscrammbled channels. From the articles I read, your TV does have a QAM tuner so you should be able to get the unscrambled channels. Read Wonderwoman's recent posts as she lists the channels she picks up doing this. Others have too. Oh, one thing you might be missing: The channel numbers will NOT be "logical", i.e. channel 7 will not be channel 7 on your TV. Others have listed the channel numbers and it could be something like 90.2 or 89-1.

Thanks Hall. Exchanged it today. Bad digital tuner. Guess what? Got home-same thing. Must be a bad batch. Oh well. Back to the drawing board.

Here's something I just thought of and wondered about.....We know most(except WDTN) NBC stations have,or will have Weather Plus on one of the subs.I was wondering if any stations were looking into 24 hr.local/state news on any of their subs.It would be nice to news like we get the weather.Even if it is a taped piece from an hour or so earlier. Also,Titan TV listings have been slightly messed up lately.They say CinCW programming is unavaialable as well as state WKEF's 22.2 is TubeTV like WXIX and there are other goofs. Anyone know if more Sinclair silliness occurred and they terminated carrying Tube anymore?
I hate that some of us have to suffer because Sinclair decides to reduce their power output to save money.They must figure 90% of people have cable or sat,so why do they need full power output.Thanks to everyone for their help so far.I think I now have my "dream setup" planned well because of it.One final item....how many watched the various stations' newscasts and saw the KFC/Taco Bell NYC story about the rats?Makes me want to take a closer look at where I eat from now onBe well! :-)

I was wondering if any stations were looking into 24 hr.local/state news on any of their subs.It would be nice to news like we get the weather.


I think it would be nicer if stations were more interested in providing the highest quality HD pictures possible via ATSC vs. multicasting various SD "subchannels".

But, in some cases, currently, the SD subchannels can bring in additonal revenue streams for the stations, and that's mostly why stations are interested in it(especially to pay the millions of $ of bills for the "new" digital/HD station), as for the most part, HD doesn't make a station more $ than SD, and probably never will ...


Anyone know if more Sinclair silliness occurred and they terminated carrying Tube anymore?

I hate that some of us have to suffer because Sinclair decides to reduce their power output to save money.They must figure 90% of people have cable or sat,so why do they need full power output.


They need to operate at "full power", because FCC requires all stations operate with parameters(including power) specified in their operating permit(license). They are allowed via "STA"(special temporary authority) from FCC to deviate from this on occasion when technical issues arise, but they have to tell FCC about it, pretty much immediately. It would be serious issue for them if they didn't do that+the commission found out about it.

Things were a bit different with DTV several years ago, when very few people were watching and many stations were operating with lower power STA's. For a while there, per their decisions in 1st DTV review report and order, for various reasons, FCC was allowing digital stations to operate with "extended" low power STA's for non-technical reasons - such as to get their digital station on the air more quickly to help move the DTV transistion along ---- that's not the case now. Now, and beginnging in July 2005 for most stations, if digital stations don't "cover" their service area, The FCC(and other stations) can take portions of it away from them. Why would they care? Well, in addition to serving their OTA audience, Because a stations signal contours/coverage area is VERY much related to cable carriage issues ....

As for "The tube"+Sinclair thing, commercial stations are running a business. If it doesn't contribute(or at least have a good chance of it) to their bottom line, generally speaking they're probably not likely to continue it, especially if they have to purchase additional equipment to provide EAS info/etc on those "subchannels" .... My understanding is, FCC made it very clear around the End of December that Stations MUST provide EAS/emergency alert info on ALL their digital channels/subchannels/etc ...

Of course, you can still currently get "The Tube" from WXIX-DT(Raycom owned - their deal with "The Tube" as well as with the cableco's that carry it from WXIX-DT may likely be "different" than Sinclair's deal with the Tube+the cablecos) Cincinnati.

Anyway, Judging by the blow torch signals from Sinclair owned or operated stations in the area -- analogs+digitals --- (WKEF/WRGT Dayton, WSYX/WTTE Columbus, WSTR Cincinnati, WDKY Lexington, KY), I don't think anyone is suffering because of the power output from those stations, currently ....

Although I certianly haven't allways agreed with how they "do things" nevertheless, Sinclair has been one of the biggest supporters and proponents of Free OTA TV, Including HD - and is on "record" for it as well. Jesse Jackson might not want Sinclair to own Two stations in Dayton, but when times get rough on broadcasters, I think it's better to have 2 stations run by one broadcaster vs. 1(or 2) of those stations going dark ....

Update - later decided to comment on this ...


. Also,Titan TV listings have been slightly messed up lately.They say CinCW programming is unavaialable as well as state WKEF's 22.2 is TubeTV like WXIX and there are other goofs.


the Tube was on WKEF-DT 22.2 until just before midnite on 1/1/07.

Those listings have had accuracy problems(especially for SD "subchannels", and indicating all programming that is or isn't in HD) for as long as I've been watching HD/DTV(Since 2001) ....

I don't think they've found a good, cost effective way yet for all providers of TV listings to provide accurate listings of what's on each and every subchannel on each and every digital station from each+every broadcaster out there.

The PBS stations in the area do have excellent program listings of their SD+HD services on their websites.

Also, there's the EPG info sent OTA digital via PSIP EIT's - The latter probably has the best chance to be accurate for SD subchannels, but unfortunetly not all Receivers out there support it, or support it fully, and not all stations have 100% properly implemented it at all times either, even though they are required by FCC currently to provide "fully populated" program guide info in the EIT out 12 hours.

The PBS stations, ThinkTV(WPTD-DT/WPTO-DT) and KET(WCVN-DT Covington, KY) have probably been the most consistant as of late in providing good, detailed EPG info via PSIP .... Overall, over the past several years, WLWT-DT(NBC HD Cincy), WCET-DT(One of the cincy PBS), and I suppose for the most part WDTN-DT has generally been very good about it as well.

Reason why I stated about the Sinclair thing and power was that someone in the Columbus forum had made a statement that they had talked to someone(engineer?) at WSYX/WTTE and was told that they reduced their power or such.Whether they have or not is of little difference.I have found that using an amp of any sort(I have tried 3) kills my reception of all but the Dayton stations on the digital side.Take it off,and I get 5,48,and 64 back.Still no 12 or 19.But I will keep working to finally get the channels I am after.I keep learning from everyone here and I like that.Also,a friend of mine in Maine has an FTA sat system/box.Anyone here know if they are any good?Have a great night! :-)

I have found that using an amp of any sort(I have tried 3) kills my reception of all but the Dayton stations on the digital side.Take it off,and I get 5,48,and 64 back.Still no 12 or 19.

What happens to analog reception with(added interference,"sqiggly diagonal lines - perhaps especially on certian VHF hannels/etc - do stations such as TBN 20 Springfiled, or any of the dayton analogs show up with a "ugly" signal, or audio/etc. on other channels other than channel 20?) and without the preamp - especially the weaker or in other words "snowier" stations, or are you reffering to the analogs in the latter portion of that (5,48,64/etc?) .... Do look at it on a TV/Tuner that doesn't "mute" the screen to blue or black and shows "snow" when a weak or interference/ghost laden is present, or just "clean snow" when there is no signal ...


Could be something else as well, but it sounds very possibile your preamp/front end of your receiver is being overloaded with nearby "too strong" signals when you insert the preamp.

Any nearby source of RF is a potential problem, as these preamps are *very* broadband -- However, it's generally the stronger sources of RF on VHF/UHF which are most likely to cause a problem, and that generally means nearby broadcast facilities.

Most likely nearby sources to Donnelsville of very strong RF that might be causing this problem would be TBN LP translator W20CL, and 2 50 KW ERP FM stations on 100.7(WEEC)+102.9(WDHT). Those transmit from "between the curves" on SR 41 Just North Of Donnelsville, so especially if your are East of Donnelsville on 40, it could be a real problem for you and, if you're going to use+get the benefits of a preamp, you might require a bit of additional attenuation(use of filters/traps) of those very strong nearby signals other than the FM traps on a good preamp can provide.

I responded in more detail regarding your reception situation, and you post+recent discussion by others in the Antenna thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9892203#post9892203

P.s. -- Also, Do keep in mind for "5", "19", "48" you are referring to the analog stations channel #'s, the digital stations transmit on different frequencies/channels entirely. Via some info sent in a station's datastream(It's called PSIP VCT - Virtual channel table), the station "shows up" as 5.1, 48.1/etc, so they "show up" on the same channel numbers as the analog, even though that is not where they are actually transmitting .... For example, WLWT-DT Cincinnati(digital) Transmits on UHF Channel 35, and remaps to "virtual channel" 5.1/5.2 -- The analog station WLWT transmits on 5 .... Antennaweb.org or FCC TV query info show the actual frequency the digital stations transmit on.

In matters diagnosing your reception issues, it may be useful for you to know/think of the "actual channels" the digital stations transmit on in your case, as several Cincinnati/Columbus stations(some analog some digital) transmit on same channel, currently, and there are also several 1st adjacent channel relationships among the Cincinnati/Dayton Columbus stations.

You might want to consider seperate VHF/UHF antennas, and at this point, unless you want to "DX" on Low VHF, it doesn't look like you'll need lo-VHF (ch 2-6, 54~88MHZ) recption after analog shut off, so for VHF(for WSYX-DT+ WCPO-DT, after analog shut off, along with WKRC-DT, as they'll be moving from 31 to 12(their current analog channel), you might want to consider a Hi-Gain VHF-HI (ch 7~13 - 174~213MHZ) antenna, such as Winegard YA-1713 -- It will also help you reduce the strong signal levels from FM stations, especially the nearest ones, WEEC+WDHT ...

Anyways, I picked up the u75r last night and rigged it up in my attic. As luck would have it, I got every channel EXCEPT for the one I was looking for. DOH! Ever since you said you picked up Cincy channels with the same antenna I've got I've been wanting to try different locations with mine. I moved around the attic a bit with NO change at all (not surprised). Then I tried the antenna partially inside, partially outside of my son's 2nd story window (facing west). I thought that being outside would make an improvement but again, NO change at all. I suspect I need to go higher, which isn't feasible at the moment. My dish is on the NE corner of my roof and is behind and below the roof line/peak, so 1) mounting it to the dish's mast would still have it shooting through my roof, effectively, and worse, "twice", 2) I wonder if it overhanging the dish itself will interfere with where the dish is looking at the satellites, and finally, 3) the dish is near my incoming power lines, as in if I were to lose a grip on the antenna while mounting it, it could fall on the power lines.

Someday, on the south side of my roof, my chimney has been replaced by a metal vent and I could possibly mount the antenna to it. I think it's high enough to get over my neighbor's house (roof) for Cincy direction. I don't think Dayton channels will be a problem at all given my proximity. Hell, I suspect I could mount the antenna pointing towards Columbus and pick up Dayton.

Well I got another HDTV over the weekend. It's a LCD flat panel and wow, these things have come a long way since 2002, when we got our CRT RPTV. But with the new set, innovation seems to have lead reliance on the stations sending out the right time via PSIP. When I flip to WBDT-DT, the time skips ahead about 6 hours, which also screws up the guide. Can anyone confirm this? If so, could someone post/PM contact info for WBDT engineers.

When I flip to WBDT-DT, the time skips ahead about 6 hours, which also screws up the guide. Can anyone confirm this?

Yes, One reciever I have here (Hisense/USDTV DB-2010) lets you select which digital station's time info is used(such as for the guide display) for your time/date info and If I select to use WBDT-DT, it currently shows its time is off by +5 hours+10 Minutes or so.

Also -- Looking at it with TS reader, WBDT-DT's time info sent via PSIP STT is currently off by + 5 hours and a little less than 10 Minutes. For the STT time info it shows should indicate the current UTC or "GMT" instead of local time, so at this exact moment -- it should say 17:10:13:30 (the current time at 0 degrees longditude - I.e. in "Greenwich, England - 5:10:13:30pm ) but it says 22:21:10 (10:21:10pm instead .... The date is correct, currently however ... I *think* the GPS offset info in their STT table is correct, but I'd need to do some research on that to say for sure )

The EPG info in the EIT's are showing up just fine, though -- so, you'll probably only notice this if your certian receiver uses the time from the station it's "tuned to"(and the station is sending the wrong time/date info) for time display or for the guide ... My old DTC 100 was like that(I don't have it any more), and several years ago it made the guide info pretty useless because so many stations were sending the improper date/time info via PSIP STT ...

BTW, WHIO-DT's STT time is also off currently, it's about 5 minutes fast -
(BTW, FCC rules require the time they send via STT be within 1 second of GPS time ...)

BTW, just a thought -- you might want to wait a few more days before you contact them about it though -- until after this "earlier than usual" March 11 change to EST to see if they get it straightened out ...

Jeff,

Thanks for the info, I need to look into getting a card for my PC. The TV sets its time based on the channel that it is tuned to, but I figured the problem might have something to do with DST coming up this weekend. I will see if anything changes over the weekend. Thanks again.

Alex

Okay, so let me say upfront that I understand every house/antenna/person is going to have different results. With that said...

I'm looking at building up in Vandalia across from the Rec Center (a stone's throw N of 70 and not very far W of 75). I've pulled up the map on antenna web and things look good (yellow - I believe). Currently I've got a Terk HDTVa in the attic and live just SE of the 70/75 interchange, at the bottom of a hill with a fairly large wood between me and the tranmitters. Signal strength is great, but I get some nasty multipath at times (really bothersome!). Should I expect my situation to improve in Vandalia? I primarily want the Dayton stations, but wouldn't mind picking up some Cincy stations (don't know if thats even a remote likelihood with this rig?). I think I'll be about on a level plane, with no large trees around, again I'll stick the antenna in the attic. What are the experiences out there for this part of town?

Also the house salesman has said outdoor antenna's are not allowed by the HOA, not even satelite dishes (although they do allow them if put up discretely). I thought I remembered someone here saying that this is not legal? But maybe that just applied to condo's/apartments. Anyway, hopefully it won't matter and the attic job will work better, but if not I was looking forward to mounting a nice rooftop model on the house I own and get to really hunt down some good signals.

Thanks!

Also the house salesman has said outdoor antenna's are not allowed by the HOA, not even satelite dishes (although they do allow them if put up discretely). I thought I remembered someone here saying that this is not legal? But maybe that just applied to condo's/apartments. Anyway, hopefully it won't matter and the attic job will work better, but if not I was looking forward to mounting a nice rooftop model on the house I own and get to really hunt down some good signals.

OTARD (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html). HOAs can put some limitations on where you place your antenna, but only as long as it doesn't affect your reception and it doesn't unreasonably increase the cost of your project. Placing an antenna in your attic will certainly have some affect on your ability to receive broadcast signals and most of us will always recommend placing an antenna outside and on your roof. There are size limitations on dishes, but broadcast antennas don't seem to have any limitation other than if you go 12ft over your roof line you may need a permit.

Also the house salesman has said outdoor antenna's are not allowed by the HOA, not even satelite dishes (although they do allow them if put up discretely). HOA rules or not, I'd always prefer that my own satellite dish or an antenna to be "discrete". You've got plenty of options....

I'm looking at building up in Vandalia across from the Rec Center (a stone's throw N of 70 and not very far W of 75). I've pulled up the map on antenna web and things look good (yellow - I believe). Currently I've got a Terk HDTVa in the attic and live just SE of the 70/75 interchange, at the bottom of a hill with a fairly large wood between me and the tranmitters. Signal strength is great, but I get some nasty multipath at times (really bothersome!). Should I expect my situation to improve in Vandalia? I primarily want the Dayton stations, but wouldn't mind picking up some Cincy stations (don't know if thats even a remote likelihood with this rig?). I think I'll be about on a level plane, with no large trees around, again I'll stick the antenna in the attic.
Here's the analysis of TV signal strength at the Rec Center itself. The Rec Center is still in a slight depression in the terrain, so if the house is on higher ground, you can expect slightly better results.

In the attached radar plot, longer bars represent stronger signals. The table to the right of the plot provides details about each of the transmitters. The expected signal strength is under the column labeled "Rx_dBm". This analysis does not account for any antenna gain, amps, cable loss, splitters, tuners, etc. (since I don't know what they are), and simply represents the amount of signals "in the air" at a point in space.



My take on the results:

- The local Dayton channels will be easy. You might still have multipath issues depending on what other structures are around, but it's probably no worse that what you've encountered before.

- You'll probably have a hard time getting the Cincinnati channels with the Terk antenna due to its limited gain. If you went with a better antenna like the DB4 or 4221, you'd probably be able to pick up those channels easily (anything with a reading above about -100 under "Rx_dBm")

- If you could go on the roof with an even taller antenna, then even the Columbus channels will start to fall within reach. Of course, they are coming from a different direction, so you'll need to use a rotator to turn the antenna when you want them, but it's up to you if you want to pursue that option.



Best regards,
Andy

In the attached radar plot,


Very cool ...

I dug up a couple of your posts regarding the software you're using for this here : ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9885254&&#post9885254 ) --

Just thought I'd comment and say Great Work on this !-- and FWIW, I think if you can make these tools accessable for folks to use via web, I think that would certianly be excellent! Seems like it would be quite a project+well beyond the "call of duty" however ....


My take on the results:


Interesting the predicted difference in signal strength between 1st adjacent channel stations WRGT-DT 30 Dayton and WKRC-DT 31/WXIX-DT 29 Cincinnati ... Looks like 35.9db difference predicted for this receive location between WRGT-DT and WKRC-DT, and 38.5db between WRGT-DT+WKRC-DT .. Given that these stations are on relatively similar azimuth headings from locations generally "north" of Dayton, if it is the case there's a problem here, it's not going to be easy to solve with a directional antenna.

As Paul and I were discussing earlier, I had read previously(somewhere in FCC documents, I can't seem to dig that up currently) that FCC considers as much as 46db D/U ratio between 1st adjacent DTV channels as "workable" ...

However, I was doing some research on this, and, in their current interference rules regarding changes in DTV table of allotments or petitions for new DTV stations -- It says they are using a threshold D/U ratio of only 26db(N-1) or 28db(N+1) for 1st adjacent channel DTV to DTV interference! Somehow, that seems odd given the situation regarding WXIX-DT/WKRC-DT's predicted service area(41dbu contour per FCC's contour methodology for instance) reaching these folks North of WRGT-DT location --- Specifically involving the first adjacent channel DTV operations of WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT/WKRC-DT currently, as well as WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT post analog shut off (as it stands right now, looks like both of those will be where they are now post analog shut off, WKRC-DT will be moving to their current analog channel assignment, VHF 12 ) ....

For more info, See CFR 47, Section 73.623, specifically the info+charts under section (c) (2) - Note you might find some of the info under section (c)(3), interesting as well :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/73/623/

Update, oh -- furthermore, Also, in regards to the rules as they apply for this section --- 73.623 says no adjacent channel DTV allotments permitted between 20~110KM .. Of course, WKRC-DT/WXIX-DT and WRGT-DT transmit locations are within that "non-permitted" range ....

Maybe I'm missing something here, however?

update: I can't seem to dig any specifics up on it in the part 73 rules, but, perhaps is it that the rules regarding interference protection are less stringent for the DTV "channel election" process, and regarding the current DTV table of allotments?

Greetings everyone!

I hope this isn't too far off-topic for this thread.

It finally warmed up enough for me to climb up on the roof to see why my antenna rotator quit working. I believe it's a CM9521 and it's only 4 1/2 years old. When I inspected the drive unit, the plastic housing around the coils was partially melted. It could be fried completely or just a broken wire internally but I wasn't going to attempt meter checks standing on the roof. I know the antenna is big and somewhat heavy (CM 3671) but I didn't think the load would cause it to overheat. It's not like I spin the thing around that much or that often. Do any of you guys have any advice on a more heavy-duty drive unit? I suppose if I were going to purchase the same one again, I could go with a more reasonable antenna, perhaps something UHF only or high VHF/UHF.

Thanks,

Paul

Wow great info, thanks guys! I'm optimistic about my results.

TerryFoster, great info on the FCC regs. It was so clear and to the point that I had to do a double check to confirm it was an actual gov't document! I'll keep that in my hip pocket incase the need arises.

Andy.S.Lee, great graph and chart, thanks for putting in the effort. If I can get those signals as projected AND avoid multipath, I'll probably stick with the Terk in the attic. I really think all the trees here (in Huber) are creating most of it, as it gets much worse relative to the wind. The new house should have a pretty clear local view to the south.

Thanks again all!

Very cool ...

I dug up a couple of your posts regarding the software you're using for this here : ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9885254&&#post9885254 ) --

Just thought I'd comment and say Great Work on this !-- and FWIW, I think if you can make these tools accessable for folks to use via web, I think that would certianly be excellent! Seems like it would be quite a project+well beyond the "call of duty" however ....
Thanks for the comments. I really enjoy this stuff both for my work and for my personal interests, so I'm all but too happy to share what I can. Besides, the tools are already written, so somebody might as well benefit from them... :)



Interesting the predicted difference in signal strength between 1st adjacent channel stations WRGT-DT 30 Dayton and WKRC-DT 31/WXIX-DT 29 Cincinnati ... Looks like 35.9db difference predicted for this receive location between WRGT-DT and WKRC-DT, and 38.5db between WRGT-DT+WKRC-DT .. Given that these stations are on relatively similar azimuth headings from locations generally "north" of Dayton, if it is the case there's a problem here, it's not going to be easy to solve with a directional antenna.

As Paul and I were discussing earlier, I had read previously(somewhere in FCC documents, I can't seem to dig that up currently) that FCC considers as much as 46db D/U ratio between 1st adjacent DTV channels as "workable" ...

However, I was doing some research on this, and, in their current interference rules regarding changes in DTV table of allotments or petitions for new DTV stations -- It says they are using a threshold D/U ratio of only 26db(N-1) or 28db(N+1) for 1st adjacent channel DTV to DTV interference! Somehow, that seems odd given the situation regarding WXIX-DT/WKRC-DT's predicted service area(41dbu contour per FCC's contour methodology for instance) reaching these folks North of WRGT-DT location --- Specifically involving the first adjacent channel DTV operations of WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT/WKRC-DT currently, as well as WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT post analog shut off (as it stands right now, looks like both of those will be where they are now post analog shut off, WKRC-DT will be moving to their current analog channel assignment, VHF 12 ) ....
Looks like you've done a great job on your homework!

Aside from all the regulatory stuff, I feel that the FCC and the industry (broadcasters, tuner designers, video processing algorithms, display manufacturers, etc.) still have some learning to do regarding ATSC signals and the factors that affect the consumer experience. It's not surprising given that the technology is new, it's sophisticated, and it's taking time to find where all the "corner cases" are. If you keep in mind that it took over 250 engineers a period of three years to come up with the NTSC standards that the FCC uses today, it will help put things in perspective regarding the learning curve for ATSC.



On a more practical (engineering) note, I see two potential problems with these so-called "near-far" cases:



1) If the difference is very large, it limits the use of amplifiers in the receive chain. The strong channels put a cap on how much amplification you can apply before getting distortion / clipping / intermodulation products / or whatever you want to call it. That leaves the weaker channels "in the mud". These cases go up against the dynamic range limitations of all the radio equipment leading up to the tuner and affects all weak channels across the band simultaneously.

In this particular case, the near channels are not that strong and the far channels are not that weak, so I actually don't think there's a problem here for most of the equipment people would typically use.



2) Adjacent channel rejection is a problem that depends on the way a receiver is designed. When a receiver tunes to a channel, it tries to select only the channel of interest and ignore all other RF energy on the rest of the channels. In practice that's hard to do if you've got a very strong signal right next to the channel you want. Think of stargazing as an analogy. It's easy enough to see stars, even dim ones, using a telescope. However, if you try looking for the same star when the sun is out right next to it, it's near impossible.

In terms of radio technology, the adjacent channel rejection depends on how good the band-pass filters, automatic gain control (AGC), and analog-to-digital (A/D) converters are in the tuner's "front-end". Since most OTA tuner manufacturers don't tell you how their radios are designed, it's hard to tell how good or bad they are at handling these cases. Based on reasonable radio design principles, I've estimated where some tuners might have problems and include "adjacent channel warnings" with my radar plots. Some tuners may struggle with these channels while others will have no problem at all.

In this particular case, there are some channels marked with adjacent channel warnings. Again, there's no way to know if a particular tuner will have any difficulties until you try it.



As a whole, I don't think the situation for campjjae is all that difficult. There's a good chance he'll get all the channels he wants without going to exotic or unusual work-arounds.



BTW, since this particular near-far case cannot be fixed with directional antennas (since they are all coming from the same direction), the next best way to fix these problems is with notch filters, which are actually not that hard to get.

One of the difficulties for the FCC in specifying the limits of a "workable" environment is defining what is a reasonable amount of effort needed to make a system work. Is it too much to expect consumers to install high gain directional antennas on a tall mast? how about requiring antenna rotators? or combining signals from multiple antennas? using FM traps? using pre-amps? adding notch filters? ...?



Again, thanks for the comments and discussion.

Best regards,
Andy

Do any of you guys have any advice on a more heavy-duty drive unit?


I don't have the URL for their website handy, but a place called "norm's rotor service" has a nice list of rotors up on their website you might want to look at ... He carries a number of good rotors+provides a good list of what you might want to look for, most of those which are suitable for much heavier loading than most any TV antennas, mostly rebuilt(should be like new) I believe .. It really doesn't hurt to have "too much" rotor, though ...

I don't want to talk them down, but I can't say I'm too impressed with what I've seen of the newer "consumer grade" rotors from companies such as CM .... Just like should be the case with antenna, personally, I want something that will work+will last a long time(as in decades) that you don't have to mess with or worry about "burning up" if you turn the antenna when it's full of ice and the wind is blowing/etc ...

FWIW, I'm using an Alliance HD-73-1 for my main TV antennas currently - It's more than "heavy duty enough" for my TV antennas, and I like it's dual speed control.

Do keep in mind these "heavier duty" rotors do tend to use more wires for the control cable however --- HD-73 uses 6 for instance, and another CDE/HAM rotor I've used on Ham antennas uses 8 or 9 control wires.

Update: Here's URL to Norm's rotor's for sale page :

http://www.rotorservice.com/prod1%20rotor%20sales.htm

I really enjoy this stuff both for my work and for my personal interests,


It is fun stuff!

edited : Removed portion of post -- Never mind, I see Andy is busy enough helping folks that have reception problems ...


Looks like you've done a great job on your homework!


Thanks. I've been following the DTV transistion for quite some time in some detail, including some of the "engineering" issues involved for many years now. As well as discussing it, and some of the problems which have occured with engineers and others(both here+on other forums as well as privately) interested in the issues involved.

It has gotten so "complicated" at times however, that I do tend to sometimes forget some of the details I had learned or come across on previous occasions ... And, at times have trouble digging up some of the references to the info again -- I should have indexed some of the ATSC white papers, FCC reports and articles+articles from TVtechnology and such a little better before I burn them to CD/DVD/etc .... Oh, well, we all only have so much time to spend on these things ....

In this particular case, the near channels are not that strong and the far channels are not that weak, so I actually don't think there's a problem here for most of the equipment people would typically use.


That's what I would think/would have thought as well as well, especially given some of what I've seen in a "seat of pants" manner, in some cases regarding weaker DTV DX via "tropo" on 1st adjacent channels to strong DTV locals --

However, if you scroll back in this thread a bit and read posts related to this issue by "paul210"(who is in a location as I recall a bit WSW of Campjae's location), it certianly seems like he likely has some difficulty with this issue, with several different models of DTV receivers ...


Think of stargazing as an analogy. It's easy enough to see stars, even dim ones, using a telescope. However, if you try looking for the same star when the sun is out right next to it, it's near impossible.


Good analogy!


In terms of radio technology, the adjacent channel rejection depends on how good the band-pass filters, automatic gain control (AGC), and analog-to-digital (A/D) converters are in the tuner's "front-end". Since most OTA tuner manufacturers don't tell you how their radios are designed, it's hard to tell how good or bad they are at handling these cases.


Yes, if you haven't already done so, you'll find some excellent articles related to these issues by Doug Lung and Charles Rhodes in TV technology. While I personally think it seems somewhat possible some of the Rhoades articles may be overstating the potential difficulies concerning some of the potential 3rd order intercept IMD/etc. issues involved for superHet receivers, nevertheless it's good to know about these things ....

It is too bad the manufacturers don't give us better info on these receiver's performance characteristics .... Remember when we used to get at least a decent "spec sheet" with FM tuners/receivers, for instance?


Based on reasonable radio design principles, I've estimated where some tuners might have problems and include "adjacent channel warnings" with my radar plots. Some tuners may struggle with these channels while others will have no problem at all.


Yes, I noticed that addition -- Nice touch!



As a whole, I don't think the situation for campjjae is all that difficult. There's a good chance he'll get all the channels he wants without going to exotic or unusual work-arounds.


Oh -- Just to clarify, I did not make my comments in an "argumentative" way, or to disagree with your "take" on campjjae's situation (as I agree with everything you said there) ...

Instead, given the signal strength predictions for campjae's location you provided regarding WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT/WKRC-DT, I saw it as an oppurtunity to further address/ comment on issues we've discussed a bit here previously. Or, In other words, my comments on the 1st adjacent channel issue/FCC rules were meant more as a "extension" to the discussion Paul and I were having earlier in thread(a page or two or so back) --- specifically, because, at the time I was wondering what the difference in field strength between WRGT-DT/WXIX-DT/WKRC-DT might actually be in a location such as Vandalia area.


BTW, since this particular near-far case cannot be fixed with directional antennas (since they are all coming from the same direction), the next best way to fix these problems is with notch filters ...

Yes -- I don't need them for local reception -- but, for one antenna setup here ------ (which I mostly use for Cincinnati Reception but also for Dx'ing - I use a seperate antenna setup/on seperate feedline for dayton Reception with A/B switch before receiver(s) to switch between them) I do use several Blonder-Tongue+winegard tunable notch filters here to knock down some of the stronger Dayton analogs a bit when I have antenna aimed at/near Dayton.

It's Nice to be able to do things such as watch WJW 8 Cleveland fairly often, which for example, lies in same direction from my location as WHIO 7 Dayton ....


Again, thanks for the comments and discussion.


Thank You !

Thanks again on the info. I just signed the contract for the house. I'll let you know how it turns out in a view months...

HOA rules are a bit funny. They say "No external antennas," then "Nothing hereinshall be construed so as to conflict with FCC regualtions." Looking at the charts and such, it shouldn't be a problem.

Got confirmation today from WHIO that it will NOT be showing the Wright State, Miami, and Ohio State games in high definition because of CBS' alleged limitations on providing a constant feed in HD. It would be nice for WHIO to do the same thing WRAL is doing -- multicast four games OTA and provide the cable company with the HD feed.

Got confirmation today from WHIO that it will NOT be showing the Wright State, Miami, and Ohio State games in high definition because of CBS' alleged limitations on providing a constant feed in HD. It would be nice for WHIO to do the same thing WRAL is doing -- multicast four games OTA and provide the cable company with the HD feed.

I guess we'll just have to hope that they all get beat in the 1st round :)

Has anybody else noticed TNT-HD via QAM that the soundtrack has been really off for quite some time now, meaning a week or more?

More specifically Law and Order in the evenings, because that's pretty much all I watch.

I've seen others mentioning lipsync issues with TNT-HD from numerous providers.

Never mind, I see Andy is busy enough helping folks that have reception problems ...
Jeff,

Sorry for the slow feedback. I was actually trying to work out all the details of my new FCC database parsing routines. Unfortunately, the "databases" the FCC makes available online are not exactly the most rigorously organized relational databases in the usual sense of the term. I've managed to work out most of the bugs with missing cross references, typos, and other weird glitches in the data and I'm ready to start test driving it. It looks like I'm able to successfully read in 13,087 active TV transmitter records (using yesterday's database snapshot).

I have no idea whether this in going to be an improvement over what I had before, but I guess I'll soon find out. I tried to add some intelligence to make better guesses as to which records match with the real world. The published databases don't have a good way to specify when records expire, so I've had to add several inferrence rules. We'll just see how this goes. I can tweak the rules or force manual overrides later.

I did see your coordinates from earlier and wrote them down. I don't have them with me now, but I'll create a plot when I get home tonight and post the results.


Best regards,
Andy

other weird glitches in the data and I'm ready to start test driving it.


One weird glitch I can recall seeing in there once was a transmitting antenna height above sea level which would put it three times Higher than the tower it was on -- Noticed that one has been fixed, though, even though it involved a now expired DTV STA anyway ... :)


I tried to add some intelligence to make better guesses as to which records match with the real world. The published databases don't have a good way to specify when records expire, so I've had to add several inferrence rules. We'll just see how this goes. I can tweak the rules or force manual overrides later.


Yeah ... in some cases It's really impossible to tell exactly what is going on using CDBS. You've got stuff such as expired STA's in there(which may or may not have been extended+currently in use - probably not, but sometimes there's no way to tell for sure), Stations which are operating under PTA and filed for license to cover a CP years ago which still hasn't been granted(at least according to that info), and multiple CP's and licensed facilites in some cases/etc/etc ...

Along with some info here+there from the local engineers, I try to keep an eye on the info(via the TV query+the CDBS links to their apps/etc. in that page) for the Cincy/Dayton area stations so at least for those I can usually pretty much figure out what is going on, so if you need any info on those I can probably help you out there ...

Hopefully, it will get a lot cleaner+easier to pull out accurate info as time goes on with the transistion ...

In any case, whatever you end up with in this regard with will surely be better than what for instance, antennaweb is doing in some(many?)cases-- for instance, they've had WPTO-DT at the location specified in their Original CP (which I don't think is even in CDBS anymore), and that is something that changed 5 years ago!

Many of the details aren't included(antenna patterns/etc) which would be necessary for your work, but I find the spreadsheets available for download here (about 7/8 way down the page) (www.dxfm.com) here quite useful tools - especially very handy during DX openings. For the U.S. stuff, He pulls the info out of CDBS and updates these about once a week.

Along with some info here+there from the local engineers, I try to keep an eye on the info(via the TV query+the CDBS links to their apps/etc. in that page) for the Cincy/Dayton area stations so at least for those I can usually pretty much figure out what is going on, so if you need any info on those I can probably help you out there ...

In any case, whatever you end up with in this regard with will surely be better than what for instance, antennaweb is doing in some(many?)cases-- for instance, they've had WPTO-DT at the location specified in their Original CP (which I don't think is even in CDBS anymore), and that is something that changed 5 years ago!
Here's the radar plot using the new FCC database code. I guess we'll just have to see how many errors are in there now.


Many of the details aren't included(antenna patterns/etc) which would be necessary for your work, but I find the spreadsheets available for download here (about 7/8 way down the page) (www.dxfm.com) here quite useful tools - especially very handy during DX openings. For the U.S. stuff, He pulls the info out of CDBS and updates these about once a week.
Most of the antenna patterns I need are available in the database. There are some antenna IDs that are missing, but I think the majority of them are in there correctly. You would think this would be necessary for the FCC's own sake, otherwise they wouldn't be able to properly assess the coverage and interference of each broadcast.


Best regards,
Andy

Here's the radar plot using the new FCC database code.


Thanks! Very nice! I very much like that "KW ERP" shown obviously tells you the ERP as calculated via taking the antenna pattern into account ... I've been doing that manually by using the formula : [relative field value in your direction Squared] x Max ERP(erp equivlilent to relative field value of 1.000] = ERP sent in your direction ....

And --- The co-channel warning for W36DG is certianly right on the mark -- W36DG is still analog at this time(the app is for flash cut to digital), and about 1/2 the time, CCI from WTVQ 36 Lexington is apparent to some degree, and it's not exactly unusual for it to just be a mess ....

I'm also glad stations like WDKY-DT+WSYX-DT were included, as I see some sort of an indication of signal from those two stations the majority of the time, and it is fairly common to occasionally achieve a lock(on an almost, but not quite daily basis for a few mintues at a time) and be able to decode at least a few minutes of video now and then from WDKY-DT and WSYX-DT(in case I didn't mention it, VHF antenna is Winegard PR5030, at about 30FT AGL) ... The situation isn't that much different for WBNS-DT+WTTE-DT ... WCMH-DT is a little more rare(due to co-channel WPTO 14 being 18 miles away+off backside of antenna), and oddly enough, WWHO-DT is even more rare -- I'd thought that was probably due to the terrain issues being worse in WWHO-DT's direction, and them being on higher frequency/shorter wavelength involved, so I'm a little surprised to see the predicted signal strength for WWHO-DT similar to for instance, WBNS-DT. Perhaps there is something going on with WRGT 45 being 1st adjacent channel, as 46 still looks a little messy from WRGT on a analog TV with antenna aimed at WWHO.

I have noticed that lowering the antenna a few feet makes quite an apparent difference in signal strength from the Cincy LP analog stations -- And, due to terrain I expect, the same is actually true for Dayton as well, especially on the higher UHF frequencies - to the extent that with my Dayton antenna(which is 31 element UHF yagi/corner reflector side mounted to tower about 8 feet lower than the XG91), Signal from WPTD-DT 58 seems to about match what I get from WCVN-DT(requires only about 15~20db extra attenuation added in feedline to get down to threshold levels) with the XG91, but with more fading+multipath issues with WPTD-DT ... Whearas, with the XG91 aimed at Dayton, it takes about 50db extra attenuation added into feedline to get down near threshold for WPTD-DT ....

I don't know if your software can show "terrain profiles" for the paths - in case not, Farther below I have attached terrain profiles(using Delorme's Topo USA) to WXIX-DT+WHIO-DT from my location(using NAD27 coordinates for the transmitter site as shown on FCC TV query from CDBS info+for my receive antenna location) ... I've drawn in a rough estimate of the TX antenna heights based on the "scale" you see for this+the height in AMSL given on FCC site. This doesn't take curvature of earth into account, so I've roughly estimated it with the "lower" line on each profile ... As you can see, the "LOS" for Dayton is a very "near" thing ....

So, in other(shorter) words - as should be evident by the "terrain profile" plots I've included -- there are certianly circumstances when terrain is involved when raising antenna a few feet can make a big difference!


I guess we'll just have to see how many errors are in there now.


As far as the stations listed on my "radar plot" -- The only thing I see that "might" be off is the ERP for WKRC-DT ... While this STA for 330KW ERP was shown as "granted" by FCC in 12/06 (and supposedly expired on 3/8/07) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_det.pl?Application_id=1142636

-- WKRC Transmitter engineer told us in Cincinnati thread last summer that the request for STA was due to a failure of a transmitter component, and that they expected to have it replaced by sometime late last summer ... And, they told the FCC this when they filed for the STA in Late July as well, as you'll see in the info exhibited in the text described in "exhibit 21" near bottom of app, in the actual application which was filed, which can be accessed here :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1142636&Service=DS&Form_id=911&Facility_id=11289

Now, while I don't know for sure whether or not they are currently using that STA or not ... However ,given what their engineer told us+what they told the commission(that they expected it would be 8 weeks from end of july 2006 before they were back to full power) I suspect they are not and are back to their 800KW ERP licensed facility(non D/A). In fact, I suspect they were probably back to full power before FCC granted the STA in December, LOL. Doesn't matter much for my location, though, as all we're talking about here is a little bit less than 4db difference between 330KW ERP+800KW ERP ...

Besides that -- AFAIK, Everything on the list looks to be right on, including involving the ERP/antenna patterns(and me being in the biggest null for WHIO-DT, and a pretty good "null" for WBDT-DT as well), and distances/azimuth headings to the transmitters from my location.

I do wonder however why W36DG and W27CT's (for channel 6DT) LD apps are "showing up", but WOTH-LD Cincinnati's CP for Channel 47 isn't showing up (see here) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WOTH&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=LD&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

There are a couple of others I might expect to see on there as well, given that W27CT's app for 6 is showing up -- Especially This one (for digital companion channel for W20CL, Springfield) - The others (such as W23DM-D LD translator) either probably wouldn't show up in a plot for me anyway as they'd probably be too weak, or haven't yet gotten beyond the "mutually exclusive apps" stage, to the extent that an actual "app" or CP shows up -- such as WBQC-CA Cincinnati digital companion channel app for 20, which just shows up as "new" with no app attached) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=168574&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9



Most of the antenna patterns I need are available in the database.


Oh yes, I was just saying that the fellow who operates the dxfm website filters out some of that data(antenna pattern info/etc) from CDBS in his spreadsheets -- As I recall when he talked a little about how he does it(and what he filters out concerning "bad"/incorrect records/etc) -- he does download the CDBS info+use it with DBMS software(I think he uses MS Access, not sure) first before exporting it to excel spreadsheet - not sure where exactly he "filters out" the antenna info/etc.


There are some antenna IDs that are missing, but I think the majority of them are in there correctly. You would think this would be necessary for the FCC's own sake, otherwise they wouldn't be able to properly assess the coverage and interference of each broadcast.


Yes -- I'm trying to remember though, does that database show the beam tilt info in every case?

And, I suppose the big question is whether or not the antenna pattern shown in the FCC data/operating permits *actually* matches the performance of the "real" antenna in any/every given case .... I suspect, in some cases, there may be some differences in the "real world" involved .....

Also -- I'm sure you're aware of this, but in case not/in case it helps --- you can sometimes dig up more "detailed" info from elsewhere on FCC site, in PDF attachements to applications for CP's or CP mods/etc as submitted as interference studies supporting the applications themselves .. for instance, sometimes you can find info on the detailed longely-rice studies performed to support the applications, as well as more detailed info, such as on beam tilt/etc ....

Here's one for a CP mod from 2003 for WDKY-DT, entitled "comprehensive technical exhibit ---


http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=178781

The way to dig some of those up is to use TV query with the "detaled info+CDBS links" option, then click on the "application list" link (which in WDKY case takes you here) :
http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=64017

Then click on the blue "application" link for the app your interested in(in this case, this one is for file # BMPCDT 20020716AAI as granted by FCC on 9/29/2004), and in this case you'll get that app here, and if you scroll to the bottom of that app, you'll find the link to the lengthy "compreshensive techincal exhhbit" for which I included a link farther above :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=702393&Service=DT&Form_id=301&Facility_id=64017

--------------------------

Unfortunetly, that sort of detailed technical information isn't available for All stations on FCC site, only some of them .... I assume FCC has all the necessary info, however ....


Anyway, thanks again Andy -- hope some of this is useful to you in some way.

Got confirmation today from WHIO that it will NOT be showing the Wright State, Miami, and Ohio State games in high definition because of CBS' alleged limitations on providing a constant feed in HD. It would be nice for WHIO to do the same thing WRAL is doing -- multicast four games OTA and provide the cable company with the HD feed.

I'm not sure of their reasoning on this. The Ohio State game IS HD. They had a combination of HD/SD programming on earlier today. I called them a couple times this evening just to raise hell anyway. At least they know somebody is watching. I also informed them WKRC had the game on in HD but I would rather watch it on WHIO, and I really would. On WHIO, everything isn't green and they have DD 5.1. The lady that answered the phone informed me that several people had called already.

Got confirmation today from WHIO that it will NOT be showing the Wright State, Miami, and Ohio State games in high definition because of CBS' alleged limitations on providing a constant feed in HD. It would be nice for WHIO to do the same thing WRAL is doing -- multicast four games OTA and provide the cable company with the HD feed.

Well since WHIO can't deliver the (HD) service we expect - there are alternatives...

I switched to the Antenna (away from the Time Warner input) for my HD OTA and I'm watching the games on WKRC in Cincinnati. Thank you WKRC.

What is it with our Dayton market? We still don't have NBC HD through Time Warner!
:rolleyes:

The lady at WHIO that answered the phone explained that it was some sort of agreement they had with CBS. I don't understand why it wouldn't be it CBS's or WHIO's best interest to carry what IS available in HD. I've got to be missing something here.

The lady at WHIO that answered the phone explained that it was some sort of agreement they had with CBS. I don't understand why it wouldn't be it CBS's or WHIO's best interest to carry what IS available in HD. I've got to be missing something here.

I found this article...

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070315/SPT01/703150339/1025/LIFE

I found this article...

http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070315/SPT01/703150339/1025/LIFE

Okay, that's what I was missing and that makes sense. It's so they can stay with the game of local interest. Why can't they explain that when people call?

Hey guys,

I'm in Springfield and according to AntennaWeb, all my stations come are within one degree direction of each other. However, in order to get every channel nicely, I need to rotate my indoor antenna. For example, I can get NBC, CBS, and ABC pretty well at one position, but to get Fox, I need to turn about 30 degrees all the while antennaweb says they're the same. Any help?

Also, I saw that some were getting TNT HD. How do you do that? Thank you in advance for your help.

Hey guys,

I'm in Springfield and according to AntennaWeb, all my stations come are within one degree direction of each other. However, in order to get every channel nicely, I need to rotate my indoor antenna. For example, I can get NBC, CBS, and ABC pretty well at one position, but to get Fox, I need to turn about 30 degrees all the while antennaweb says they're the same. Any help?

Also, I saw that some were getting TNT HD. How do you do that? Thank you in advance for your help.

The simpliest answer about you needing to turn your antenna to get other stations is they aren't as powerful, there is multipath, etc. There's other reasons which others can help you with here, but that's my quick amatuer answer.
(I have the same problem, but really I just need WDTN because the rest of the locals I can get from TWC via QAM. Except CW, I can't get that with the antenna :()

I get TNT-HD via TWC with a QAM tuner. You can also get Disc-HD the same way. Hope this helps.

funkmasta: Try the antenna in different locations. You might find one that will work for all stations. What antenna is it, by the way ??

As for TNT-HD, the ones who are getting that 1) have Time Warner Cable and 2) have TVs with QAM tuners.

Lighting Guy: Are TNT-HD and Discovery HD Theatre "in the clear" again ??

A few minutes ago WHIO flashed across the screen that the HD feed of the Miami game would be on "as soon as CBS makes it available."

I have the Philips PHDTV-3 I think it is.

Holy Cross vs Illinois is in HD right now.

I have the Philips PHDTV-3 I think it is. Cool looking antenna.... This comment from a review at Amazon sounds similar to your experience and also gives some guidance to try:

Placement is key so try different places. I live in an apartment and I found a spot for it. Reception is very sensitive. One inch here and there makes all the difference.

Looks like we're moving from north carolina to the Dayton area in mid april. Looking at the springboro or franklin areas. How is the HD coverage up there with an antenna? And are there any Tivo series 3 cable card users in the area?

The Springboro/Franklin area is sorta halfway between Dayton and Cincinnati (as you probably know) and either market shouldn't be too much problem for OTA reception.

Can't recall anyone in this thread mentioning having a Tivo Series 3.... I know the local TWC had some "trouble" with cable cards for a while but seemingly have straightened that out (or people don't post about it here).

is cincinnati a "Big East" market for college sports?

is cincinnati a "Big East" market for college sports?

While it definately should be IMO, I would say that both the Cincinnati and Dayton areas are "Big 10" markets.

Looks like we're moving from north carolina to the Dayton area in mid april. Looking at the springboro or franklin areas. How is the HD coverage up there with an antenna? And are there any Tivo series 3 cable card users in the area?

I live near Springboro/Franklin and get great HD OTA reception via an antenna in the attic. I can pick up almost all the big stations from both Dayton/Cincy markets.

is cincinnati a "Big East" market for college sports?

WXIX and their sister station (I forget the number and call letters at the moment) split time carrying the Big East game of the week for football. Not sure about basketball... either way, I think the Big 10 and Big East split the Cincinnati market.

Anyone catch the commercial during the NCAA Tournament stating that WHIO will be doing the local news in "widescreen?"

^ they mentioned it on their newscast today as well. Think they said April 1st.

Hope that doesn't involve altering AR for any 4x3 content ... i.e. "stretching" or crop/zooming 4x3 to 16x9 .... Given what the stations around here do regarding distorting the video when inserting "school closings" info however, nothing would surprise me, anymore ....

Noticed FCC recently granted a CP for W24DG-D, Springfield, OH -- It's digital companion channel for W20CL (TBN LP translator), Springfield.

There were info/articles a while back stating TBN will be offering HD later this year, perhaps that will involve their OTA stations in the area -- WKOI-DT(currently 5 channel SD multicast), W36DG(TBN analog LP translator Cincinnati with current LD CP to flash cut to digital), and/or W24DG-D.

WKOI-DT is currently the only digital station out of 15 in Dayton+Cincinnati which currently doesn't offer any HD ....

they mentioned it on their newscast today as well. Think they said April 1st.

Hopefully it's not a sick April Fool's joke.

What will this "Widescreen" actually be, just 16:9 SD? Yuck! Maybe April 1st will bring more than what they are saying?

They never said SD or HD in the commercial. They just said they are going to be 16x9.

^ they mentioned it on their newscast today as well. Think they said April 1st.

Hope that doesn't involve altering AR for any 4x3 content ... i.e. "stretching" or crop/zooming 4x3 to 16x9 .... Given what the stations around here do regarding distorting the video when inserting "school closings" info however, nothing would surprise me, anymore ....

Newscasts look better at a constant size.

Just watch KING 5 in Seattle if you want to get a headache in 60 seconds with the cuts from 16:9 Studio to 4:3 Field.

Even with side wings on them, unless there is motion in the wings the field of vision is constantly being reset between 4:3 and 16:9.

Quite frankly, It would not surprise me to hear that the bouncing field of vision on KING 5 has caused a few people to go into seizures.

Newscasts look better at a constant size.


Not if the pictures are distorted.


Just watch KING 5 in Seattle if you want to get a headache in 60 seconds with the cuts from 16:9 Studio to 4:3 Field.


Distorted pictures not only give me a headache, it (even if a non-linear stretch is done so that the center of the picture is less distorted) causes me to turn off the TV all together.


Quite frankly, It would not surprise me to hear that the bouncing field of vision on KING 5 has caused a few people to go into seizures.


Funny stuff, man, LOL ......

update -- I do see your point though, although I personally have seen no issues that would involve health, or even annoyance(I'd far rather see the pictures as they were *meant* to be shown) from AR switching during commericals breaks/etc(or at any other time I've seen) --- I suppose if they feel they *have* to find some way to make 4x3 Programming fill 16x9, I hope it would be via a crop/zoom method rather than via the linear or non-linear "stretch" method ..

Not if the pictures are distorted.

Distorted pictures not only give me a headache, it (even if a non-linear stretch is done so that the center of the picture is less distorted) causes me to turn off the TV all together.


Yes, Newscasts look horrible bouncing between 16:9 and 4:3. You would be screaming blood murder if WHIO went this route. You might think you wouldn't, but I can tell you that you absolutely would. Its the most distracting thing I've ever seen.



Funny stuff, man, LOL ......

update -- I do see your point though, although I personally have seen no issues that would involve health, or even annoyance(I'd far rather see the pictures as they were *meant* to be shown) from AR switching during commericals breaks/etc(or at any other time I've seen) --- I suppose if they feel they *have* to find some way to make 4x3 Programming fill 16x9, I hope it would be via a crop/zoom method rather than via the linear or non-linear "stretch" method ..


You are missing the point here I think.

Studio 16:9 for 10 seconds and field footage 4:3 for 5 seconds - back to studio 16:9 - back to 4:3 field footage. You head feels like a its playing the old PONG game on the TV Screen.

I am not talking between segments - I am telling you that KING switches aspect ratio everytime it shows anything outside the studio - so your TV screen is expanding and collapsing in real time.

Take a look at the news and look at how many times they bounce back and forth between studio and field - and you will get the idea.

The problem is if your eyes are looking at a 16:9 picture, then 5 seconds later it is a 4:3 picture and back to 16:9 10 seconds later repeated 50x times over the course of a 30 minute newscast - it gets old after about 30 seconds.

On the upside, most broadcasters have ordered nothing but cameras that can shoot 16:9 since 2004. I know that is the case with WHIO's parent company - so most of their field reports should be in 16:9 - but again, how they will handle other reports (CBS, CNN etc) that are 4:3 since need to be adapted some how to keep the constant 16:9 picture - I am pretty sure you will see either a 4:3 expanded or a 4:3 with wings to bring it out to 16:9

At least one video that WHIO ran on last night's news was "squeezed" to 4:3. It looks like they're experimenting. When I stretched the video to 16:9, it looked normal.

Yes, Newscasts look horrible bouncing between 16:9 and 4:3.


What is NBC doing for 4x3 material on their new HD newscast ?

I didn't get a chance to watch last night .....


You are missing the point here I think.


No, I got it. As I said, in my update to last post I get your point ....


On the upside, most broadcasters have ordered nothing but cameras that can shoot 16:9 since 2004. I know that is the case with WHIO's parent company - so most of their field reports should be in 16:9


Yes - And I would think one of the issues for a local news production involving 16x9 SD would be the "non-square pixel" aspect of SD 704x480 or 720x480 16:9 (such as it is called by many : "anamorphic" such as on a widescreen DVD)-- Not in and of itself, but because of how to handle and properly "format" any 4x3 material present in the newscast --

Update: Also -- I wonder how they are going to do the feed for the analog station? Center cut to 4x3, or letterbox 16x9 ?


4:3 since need to be adapted some how to keep the constant 16:9 picture - I am pretty sure you will see either a 4:3 expanded or a 4:3 with wings to bring it out to 16:9

4x3 with "wings"? I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about there ... 4x3 that's *really* 4x3 with some sort of "colored" sidebars(I've heard some call them "barn doors") to help minimize the distraction between fast changes between 16x9 and 4x3 material would certianly seem like a good way to go to me, and it is something I would actually watch as well .... Perhaps "sidebars" with a color that matches the colors used for the studio sets(probably some shade of blue in this case ...)

Studio 16:9 for 10 seconds and field footage 4:3 for 5 seconds - back to studio 16:9 - back to 4:3 field footage. You head feels like a its playing the old PONG game on the TV Screen.

I am not talking between segments - I am telling you that KING switches aspect ratio everytime it shows anything outside the studio - so your TV screen is expanding and collapsing in real time.

Take a look at the news and look at how many times they bounce back and forth between studio and field - and you will get the idea.

The problem is if your eyes are looking at a 16:9 picture, then 5 seconds later it is a 4:3 picture and back to 16:9 10 seconds later repeated 50x times over the course of a 30 minute newscast - it gets old after about 30 seconds.


Best I could do to simulate something like that was to :

#1) Have someone else switch to different aspect ratio formatting "modes" equipment here allows while 4x3 programming is broadcast "within" a 16x9 format(720p/1080/etc ... I can crop/ zoom(knocking off the top or bottom) or "stretch" 4x3 to fit 16x9(YUCK!), and switch back to 4x3 with the "sidebars" included in the broadcast with the touch of a button ..

#2). Edit a TS file from an hour long HD program(with plenty of cuts to 4x3 commercials) with HDTVtoMPEG2 in such a way that I had as many as 2 switches back and forth between 4x3 and 16x9 within about a 10 second time frame ... Repeating that edited file continously as well ....

I think I can safely say It just does not bother me as much as you are suggesting, and I would perfer switching between 4x3 and 16x9 when necessary --- even if it has to happen 50 times(big exaggeration as I don't think it would happen that often) during a 30 minute newscast VS. "distorted" 4x3 pictures "stretched" to 16x9 ......

HOWEVER, I can certianly understand that it might be overly distracting for some(or many? - I have no idea) , as it obviously is for you ....

Would imagine how it might even be more distracting for those who like to have a "bright" picture and tend to adjust their display's white levels to high settings ...


Its the most distracting thing I've ever seen.


I certianly believe you, and can understand why some(again or Many? Who knows) may find that distracting. But, we don't all see and interpet what we are seeing in the same way.

So, Hopefully, you can understand that as much as you dislike what KING is doing :

Well, I get much the same impression when video is distorted in order to do things such as "make" 4x3 "fill out" 16x9, or to "squeeze in" school closing info at bottom of screen without pulling in the sides as well to keep proper aspect ratio .... I don't care if it's HD, SD, whatever ... I'd rather watch a snowy analog OTA signal from 100 miles away, or have them switch between 4x3 and 16x9 every 2 seconds rather than watch distorted pictures !

-----------

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what WHIO does .... I *do* think it's pretty cool that it looks like they're going to be the first in this neck of the woods to have 16x9 news production, given that Dayton is smaller market than Cincinnati or Columbus, Both just down the pike, so to speak ....

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what WHIO does .... I *do* think it's pretty cool that it looks like they're going to be the first in this neck of the woods to have 16x9 news production, given that Dayton is smaller market than Cincinnati or Columbus, Both just down the pike, so to speak .... WBNS in Columbus will probably beat WHIO. When did WHIO say they'd start ?? WBNS is planning for April 2nd according to "HDTV Columbus", http://www.hdcolumbus.net/. Heh, just scrolled down and someone mentions April 1st...

When did WHIO say they'd start ?? ..

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10124329&&#post10124329

Edit -- Good for WBNS though -- It's been a while since I've checked that forum ... HD as well, don't think WHIO has said anything about HD, just widescreen ....

I can't get them all the time, but wish I could --- because as long as I've been watching HDTV (5 1/2 years now), WBNS-DT has been consistant with providing High quality CBS HD, without multicasting --- exception concerning the latter during NCAA BB tourney ....

I also recall, at least in the past they've also offered several non-CBS HD programs - Local productions + "Syndicated" HD programming ...

Was WHIO-DT down this morning?? I had a good signal lock, but no picture.

Was WHIO-DT down this morning?? I had a good signal lock, but no picture.

It happened about 1/2 way through last night's 11:00 news.

Also, earlier in the evening I noticed the DD 5.1 center channel dialogue was missing from NCIS.

It happened about 1/2 way through last night's 11:00 news. Yeap, same for me. What receiver do you have, Paul ?? I've got a Dish ViP622 as does kkozma.

I was watching a Panasonic plasma with built-in ATSC tuner when they went blank last night.

Everybody needs to call to complain to WHIO about there being no center channel on the HD broadcast right now. I just spoke to them and was assured that it must be my equipment. :rolleyes: Funny, when the broadcast flips out of HD and Dolby Digital I can hear everything.

4x3 with "wings"? I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about there ... 4x3 that's *really* 4x3 with some sort of "colored" sidebars(I've heard some call them "barn doors") to help minimize the distraction between fast changes between 16x9 and 4x3 material would certianly seem like a good way to go to me, and it is something I would actually watch as well .... Perhaps "sidebars" with a color that matches the colors used for the studio sets(probably some shade of blue in this case ...)


You should probably learn the proper terms for what you will be seeing a lot of over the next 5 or so years

http://www.leitch.com/resources/applicationNotes/NEOApplicationMarch2006.pdf

Also:

http://www.nbcumv.com/release_detail.nbc/news-20070320000000-nbcnightlynews47.html


'NBC NIGHTLY NEWS WITH BRIAN WILLIAMS' BECOMES THE FIRST NETWORK EVENING NEWSCAST TO BROADCAST IN HIGH-DEFINITION TELEVISION
Published: March 20, 2007


HD viewers will see "Nightly News" in a fully detailed 1080i picture in 16:9 ratio (widescreen), while field reports will continue in 4:3 ratio with wings, for now. NBC News expects to begin using HD gear in the field later this year. However, reporting from the White House lawn will be available in widescreen HD on March 26. Standard Definition (SDTV) viewers will have a 4:3 picture as they do now, albeit with noticeably improved clarity and quality.


# # #

Press Contact: Barbara Levin, NBC News Communications, 212-664-2265.

Funny, I always thought it was called pillar boxing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillar_box_%28film%29). I don't think that marketing terms are necessarily proper terms. I've heard them called many things before, but I have to admit "wings" is a new one for me.

In the 5 1/2 years I've been watching HDTV/DTV, I don't recall having much problem communicating about such issues with folks here, or with broadcast engineers, either.

I've heard pros call them "barn doors" as well. Doesn't really matter to me what we call them. Wings, pillarbars, sidebars, barn doors, whatever. I had figured that's what he meant by "wings", just wanted to make sure. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

In the pic example in the leitch/harris brocure they also clearly label them as "sidebars", and use that term throughout in the text as well, which is I believe how I reffered to them, earlier. Sorry if that wasn't clear as well ....

WHIO is now running commercials about their upcoming change to their news broadcast. It's interesting... They say they're the 1st in Dayton to do HD. 1st for something else and 1st for another thing. Not disputing those. They're going to do "all digital, widescreen, new look" and "broadcasting in 16:9". No mention of HD, just wider. Specifically, "you'll see more". I hate to say it, but it's lame. The average person doesn't know what "16:9" is but I guess it's the closest they can get to an HD look. I asked my wife was 16:9 means and her reply was "nothing".

Funny, I always thought it was called pillar boxing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillar_box_%28film%29). I don't think that marketing terms are necessarily proper terms. I've heard them called many things before, but I have to admit "wings" is a new one for me.

"The pillar box effect occurs in widescreen video displays when black bars (mattes or masking) are placed on the sides of the image."

These arent black bars, thus the difference.

In the 5 1/2 years I've been watching HDTV/DTV, I don't recall having much problem communicating about such issues with folks here, or with broadcast engineers, either.

I've heard pros call them "barn doors" as well. Doesn't really matter to me what we call them. Wings, pillarbars, sidebars, barn doors, whatever. I had figured that's what he meant by "wings", just wanted to make sure. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

In the pic example in the leitch/harris brocure they also clearly label them as "sidebars", and use that term throughout in the text as well, which is I believe how I reffered to them, earlier. Sorry if that wasn't clear as well ....

If it came off as I was trying to be a know it all in my original post, that was not the intent.

The intent was to try and get across how it is now termed in the Industry so there is some type of understanding and standardization on avs - as there is in the Industry, so if someone searches for "wings" they will be able to find the posts with the appropiates info.

Please remember that Xerox literature uses the term copies or reproduction in the description of what it does.

I can call a truck a truck - but if I say a big 18 wheel vehicle that runs on a road, people can understand what is being communicated, but people wonder, why I don't I know it's called a "truck".

Just as a radio was called a wireless in the beginning, technological terms can vary in different camps until their eventual standardization in an Industry.

When dials were put on phones, everyone called a phone with a dial on the front a "rotary" phone. Now rotary in the telephone industry is commonly thought of as a line with a hunt group.

Everyone called a touchtone phone a pushbutton phone in the beginning.

People called the * button on a pushbutton phone an asterick until it was standardized as star.

# was number - and only later became pound.

Again, just an informative post, as 4:3 with Wings is pretty much the standard nomenclature for the term now - which makes sense as it is a 4:3 picture and it does not have a black pillarbox on the sides - it has colored wings on the side of the 4:3 image that has images or information contained on those wings.

You can call them pillarbars, sidebars, barn doors, or those things on the side the picture, but it will only telegraph that you are an outsider of the industry, which I doubt is what you want.

WHIO is now running commercials about their upcoming change to their news broadcast. It's interesting...


Well, I for one am glad to see *any* promotion of local broadcasters HD or digital services.

If it came off as I was trying to be a know it all in my original post, that was not the intent.


No, I didn't take it that way. But, to be honest, probably only because I saw your post on this in the ESPN thread as well ....


The intent was to try and get across how it is now termed in the Industry so there is some type of understanding and standardization on avs - as there is in the Industry, so if someone searches for "wings" they will be able to find the posts with the appropiates info.


Good point ....


People called the * button on a pushbutton phone an asterick until it was standardized as star.


But it still *is* an asterick, and that is certianly how I think of it --- you probably won't see me spell that out here however, since all I have to do is press "*" :-)

but it will only telegraph that you are an outsider of the industry, which I doubt is what you want.

Actually, don't take this the wrong way, but I could care less about that part of it. The people in that business I talk to/have talked to usually know I don't get a paycheck from that industry, and I certianly have no reason to need to "put on airs" about it, so to speak.

My point was, up until now, don't recall hearing anyone in, or outside, the industry refer to them as "wings", whether they are black, or Blue and say something like "CBS HDTV". Which has been the case a long time for some 4x3 during some HD productions ....

In any case, "wings" is fine with me, I certianly have no problem with it, it's nice, short and descriptive.

No, I didn't take it that way. But, to be honest, probably only because I saw your post on this in the ESPN thread as well ....



Good point ....



But it still *is* an asterick, and that is certianly how I think of it --- you probably won't see me spell that out here however, since all I have to do is press "*" :-)



Actually, don't take this the wrong way, but I could care less about that part of it. The people in that business I talk to/have talked to usually know I don't get a paycheck from that industry, and I certianly have no reason to need to "put on airs" about it, so to speak.

My point was, up until now, don't recall hearing anyone in, or outside, the industry refer to them as "wings", whether they are black, or Blue and say something like "CBS HDTV". Which has been the case a long time for some 4x3 during some HD productions ....

In any case, "wings" is fine with me, I certianly have no problem with it, it's nice, short and descriptive.

How about we just call them "who gives a sh*t" :)

I'm in the Dayton area and my only form of receiving video is from OTA broadcast.
I have tried many different types and brands of antennas with marginal results.
Untill I made my own out of clothes hangers (yes, simple hangers) wood and a UHF?VHF?FM transformer. It runs circles around the store bought ones I had used. I'm now getting 51 channels local and some as far away as Ky. 34 of which Digital SD or HD.

"Your Post contains one or more URLs or image calls, please remove them before submitting your message again. To prevent the abuse of spam, we have set this restriction in place until after you make 5 posts."

Once I get past this restriction I will post the picture or a link to the pic.

hyghwayman

Also building a 2nd antenna that should improve my signal strenth for distant OTA broadcast.

hyghwayman

1 more thing , my signal for all local stations is locked at 95 out of 100. With no dropouts.

hyghwayman

or links to the pictures. The link is to my MSN spaces web page

Antenna (http://umbrellaceo.spaces.live.com/photos/)


The 1st two pics are of my HDTV, Audio and gaming components, the 3rd pic is of the antenna I made.

hyghwayman

Well, I for one am glad to see *any* promotion of local broadcasters HD or digital services. My point is, the typical person probably doesn't know what 16:9 really means. The people that do will notice that they aren't going that extra step up to HD. I'm not against them doing this by any means (we watch WHIO less and less because of their emphasis on the negative of everything) and it will look just fine, I'm sure. Their digital picture, even in 4:3/SD is good quality.

or links to the pictures. The link is to my MSN spaces web page

Antenna (http://umbrellaceo.spaces.live.com/photos/)


The 1st two pics are of my HDTV, Audio and gaming components, the 3rd pic is of the antenna I made.

hyghwayman

That is hilarious. Did you cut your elements to any particular size to correspond to wavelength or did you just wing it? I notice you have it horizontal. Does that give you better reception than vertical?

My point is, the typical person probably doesn't know what 16:9 really means.


Yeah, they should have called it 1.77777778:1 Widescreen since I'm sure folks are more familiar with using the exact ratio as specified on most DVD packaging ..... but only to 1/100ths of course .... ;)

Also regarding "widescreen" DVD's --- personally, In addition to stating the aspect ratio of the content, I'd also rather they use the (IMO) more accurate terminology of the video format used for most widescreen DVD's as being "16x9 NTSC video" rather than "anamorphic" widescreen -- the latter which is also stated on most widescreen dvd packages ... some, especially older "widescreen" dvd's of course are(unfortunetly) letterboxed "in" 4x3 (1.33:1 ) NTSC video ..

then, there's the so-called "full screen" DVD ... Full screen for who? Full screen on a 4x3 display I suppose, full screen on a 16x9 display only if you want distorted pictures ;)


Their digital picture, even in 4:3/SD is good quality.

Yep, regarding the 7 news production especially, same is true on analog 7 as well. The latter has pretty much been the case for as long as I can recall ....

Does anyone know if the TWC SA-8300HD has HDMI enabled?

WHIO-DT did indeed begin their Widescreen(SD) newscasts today at noon. I didn't get a chance to watch it all, but indeed, in addition to the very nice looking studio shots, the majority of the "new" local field footage I caught was 16x9, and looked quite good ...

I won't comment much on the relatively sparse 4x3 material(you know the saying, if you don't have anything good to say ....) - except to say the 4x3 commercials looked good, and I liked how they handled it concerning the 4x3 "radar" display during the weather report ;-)

Does anyone know if the TWC SA-8300HD has HDMI enabled?

I believe they do, mine did.

WHIO-DT did indeed begin their Widescreen(SD) newscasts today at noon. I didn't get a chance to watch it all, but indeed, in addition to the very nice looking studio shots, the majority of the "new" local field footage I caught was 16x9, and looked quite good ... Damn ! I'm impressed ! 16:9 SD ?? It looked excellent to me.... After (3) Springfield stories in a row, my wife commented "when did we move to Springfield" and turned to channel 2.... :D (that goes back to my earlier comment about negative stories .... apparently there weren't enough "bad" things in Dayton today, so they had Springfield stories to fill their quota)

Got another TWC question for those who are customers:

Are they doing digital simulcasting yet ??

Any "big" changes with them in the past year ??

Got another TWC question for those who are customers:

Are they doing digital simulcasting yet ??

Any "big" changes with them in the past year ??

No and IMO No. In talking with one of their employees about digital simulcasting- the emphasis is being put on digital phone ($$) and not to get my hopes up on more digital/hd programing until after the new year. I said - "It's March." He said "Yep."

No and IMO No. In talking with one of their employees about digital simulcasting- the emphasis is being put on digital phone ($$) and not to get my hopes up on more digital/hd programing until after the new year. I said - "It's March." He said "Yep."

Although TWC did sign a deal with Disney today and we should see ESPN2HD "later this year"

In talking with one of their employees about digital simulcasting- the emphasis is being put on digital phone ($$)... No surprise there. TW is no doubt spending a LOT of money advertising it, that's for sure. Every good "deal" I've seen from them in the past year required their phone service.

Just got Universal HD on Time Warner Cable. About the only thing I would watch on UHD are the replays on ND football and the Olympics.

Meanwhile the rest of the country is getting ESPN2HD . . .

Just got Universal HD on Time Warner Cable. About the only thing I would watch on UHD are the replays on ND football and the Olympics.

Meanwhile the rest of the country is getting ESPN2HD . . .

They have had some good movies on in recent months... it is better than you think. This week they also have early round coverage of the Masters.

They have had some good movies on in recent months... it is better than you think. This week they also have early round coverage of the Masters.

Hopefully the idiots at TWC dayton didn't say, "let's give our viewers a treat and give them UHD for thurs/fri coverage of the Masters in HD", when WHIO-HD is showing it...

I wouldn't put it past them, but I would imagine UHD is here to stay...

I think this is TWC's move to compete with D* and put some action behind their reasoning to block D*'s BTTF "More HD than cable" ad. So, I would expect these channels to stay along with some other additions like the ESPN2HD that's already in the works.

Any word on TWC offering Fox Sports HD for Reds games? Wishful thinking I presume... I cannot WAIT to get satellite. :mad:

Don't jump on the satellite band wagon just yet. None of the Reds games have been on the traditional HD channels. There was a claim made that the Wednesday game was available from the spot beam on the regular channel for FSN-Cinci SD. I will try and confirm that claim on Saturday night, but until then don't assume D* has the games until the new satellites go up (some time LATE summer).

thurs/fri coverage of the Masters in HD", when WHIO-HD is showing it...


Hartsock even promoted it earlier this week during newscast - even though the graphic shown only mentioned "707"/TW channel, Hartsock mentioned it was available OTA as well ....

What is the Best antenna? and where is the best place to get it.... I live on a Hill in Middletown, Ohio and have a Olevia LT32HV 32" HD-Ready Flat-Panel LCD TV.... Thank you.... You can contact me by messenger or e-mail... I use Time Warner Cable and sick of the High Price for it.... Thinking about switching to satellite either Dish or Directv is it worth it...
Thanks, Robert

Over the past 1-2 weeks I have noticed a significant increase in artifacting/pixilating on TWC digital channels. It started up at 114-1 (DiscoveryHD) and 114-2 (TNTHD) and has been "going down hill" from there. (I have a Toshiba with QAM tuner, so I am just getting the unencrypted digital channels.) Today, the pixilating was really bad on 22-1 and and 16-2. If I do OTA, things are fine, so I am thinking (hoping!) it is not my tuner.

Anyone know what might be causing this? Has TWC done any signficant system changes over the past couple of weeks? (I am in the Beavercreek area.) For the most part, I am getting a very strong signal with occasional drop outs, so it seems that it is something with the cable system

Any thoughts will be appreciated!

Thanks!

Don

Over the past 1-2 weeks I have noticed a significant increase in artifacting/pixilating on TWC digital channels. It started up at 114-1 (DiscoveryHD) and 114-2 (TNTHD) and has been "going down hill" from there. (I have a Toshiba with QAM tuner, so I am just getting the unencrypted digital channels.) Today, the pixilating was really bad on 22-1 and and 16-2. If I do OTA, things are fine, so I am thinking (hoping!) it is not my tuner.

Anyone know what might be causing this? Has TWC done any signficant system changes over the past couple of weeks? (I am in the Beavercreek area.) For the most part, I am getting a very strong signal with occasional drop outs, so it seems that it is something with the cable system

Any thoughts will be appreciated!

Thanks!

Don

DiscoveryHD was very pixelated for me at one point last week. The next day UHD was added, so who knows maybe they are adding more HD stuff (ESPN2HD, VersusHD maybe :) )

So are you saying they are now compressing the HD signals, browerjs?

So are you saying they are now compressing the HD signals, browerjs?

I have no idea, I noticed no difference between DiscoveryHD before/after UHD was added. Just that there was some problems with DiscoveryHD the day/morning before UHD showed up.

I actually think it's more of a coincedence that this happened, but don't really know.

So are you saying they are now compressing the HD signals, browerjs? Remember the discussions about WDTN on TWC-Dayton ?? :D At one time I was told they didn't have the capacity to add WDTN, besides the fact about the negotiations going nowhere. They aren't doing digital simulcasting nor switched digital video, so where is the add'l capacity for UHD (and ESPN2-HD later) coming from ??

They may not be compressing the channels but are simply over-capacity. They can get away with it most of the time, I'm sure. When the channels need a reasonable amount of bandwidth, things are fine but if they get some fast-action stuff timed together, they could max out and things will pixellate. It will get better, errr, worse, when ESPN2-HD comes online.

Did Time Warner Dayton add UniversalHD? If they did, where is it, and what package do you have to have to get it?

D

Remember the discussions about WDTN on TWC-Dayton ?? :D At one time I was told they didn't have the capacity to add WDTN, besides the fact about the negotiations going nowhere. They aren't doing digital simulcasting nor switched digital video, so where is the add'l capacity for UHD (and ESPN2-HD later) coming from ??

They may not be compressing the channels but are simply over-capacity. They can get away with it most of the time, I'm sure. When the channels need a reasonable amount of bandwidth, things are fine but if they get some fast-action stuff timed together, they could max out and things will pixellate. It will get better, errr, worse, when ESPN2-HD comes online.

I want to redefine the "pixelation" i was seeing on DiscoveryHD. It wasn't fast action pixelation like you may see on CBS-HD during a basketball game, but it was more of a video stream breakup with mass pixelation. (the audio may have even been dropping, i don't really remember).

Like I said this may have nothing to do with TWC dayton, and may have even been DiscoveryHD themselves (this was at 7:00 AM on last tues. and the only reason i even noticed it was because I was running Discovery HD 24-7 to break in my new plasma).

And i was only seeing this through my SA8300HD box, when i checked my LCD and it's QAM tuner nothing was coming through on 114-1. So what I'm seeing may or may not be realated to what the OP is seeing.

Did Time Warner Dayton add UniversalHD? If they did, where is it, and what package do you have to have to get it?

D

It was added last Wed. in the HDTV tier (channel 761). You should have it if you have the package that includes ESPNHD, etc.

I'm assuming it's still there, but I never looked last night to see if they kept it around post-Masters.

Remember the discussions about WDTN on TWC-Dayton ?? :D At one time I was told they didn't have the capacity to add WDTN, besides the fact about the negotiations going nowhere. They aren't doing digital simulcasting nor switched digital video, so where is the add'l capacity for UHD (and ESPN2-HD later) coming from ??

They may not be compressing the channels but are simply over-capacity. They can get away with it most of the time, I'm sure. When the channels need a reasonable amount of bandwidth, things are fine but if they get some fast-action stuff timed together, they could max out and things will pixellate. It will get better, errr, worse, when ESPN2-HD comes online.


The whole we are completely out of room for WDTN was total BS. Back when INHD2 was on, TWC managed to have both WDTN and WBTD available through the diagnostic menu (and presumably QAM). At one point UHD had been added as well.

Each analog channel can reportedly support two or three HD stations at full or nearly full bitrate (I believe 45 mbps total per channel). I haven't checked for awhile, but at one time ABC and FOX/MYNTV shared the equivalent of one analog channel. The same was true with respect to DiscoveryHD and TNTHD. The addition of another HD station, such as ESPN2HD, on a separate analog channel wouldn't change things. It would change things if it were the third or fourth HD station occupying the same channel as DiscoveryHD and TNTHD.

UHD replaced INHD2 so nothing has changed as far as that addition.
No one has the answer on exactly what is available. However, mere observation tells me that space is available. UPN was dropped just this January -- thats space for two or three new HD stations -- hopefully ESPN2HD, BIG10-HD and FSN-Ohio-HD.

The lack of room answer came from engineering, not customer service, programming, marketing, etc, etc. To be specific, here's how it went:

Me: ....told me that the reason WDTN-DT isn't carried is because "We do not have the channel space capacity at this time to add WDTN HD". Last I knew it was because TW and WDTN or their parent company couldn't agree on terms.

How accurate is that reason for not carrying them today ?? I know that if I put my 8300 into 'diag' mode, I can tune to channel 702 and 726. On ch 702, there's no audio or video but the banner does say what station it is. On ch 726, well, it works completely. That suggests to me that engineering has everything set up and ready and is just waiting on the memo telling you to make it available.
Response: Both are correct. Currently our corporate folks can't come to an agreement and if they don't soon, we'll use that spectrum for... (snipped some information) If an agreement is reached in the short term, we'll need to work much harder to open spectrum for the digital simulcast. Eventually all the broadcaster services will be moved to a switch digital stream model. It'll work like real time VoD, we'll only stream it out when a set top requests it, and then it will only go to the service group that the requesting set top is in. The same spectrum can be used in other service groups (and set tops) to view other content. Fast moving industry with lots of changes to keep track of. So, like I said, both stories are correct depending on who you talked to and what they know.
I think you can trust that the response is from the technical or engineering side of TWC.... :D

As with all digital broadcast stations, Transport stream for WDTN-DT Digital (that includes 2.1 and 2.2) is 19.38Mb/s maximum. that would fit in 3MHZ (1/2 channel ) on TW's system. Shave a few Mb/s off that for 2.1 only, shave off more if they are using Rate shaping and squeezing 3 HD into 1 QAM channel ...

Each analog channel can reportedly support two or three HD stations at full or nearly full bitrate (I believe 45 mbps total per channel). HD.

I think its 38 Mb/s available payload in 6MHZ channel using QAM 256 signal modulation. It's about the same with 16VSB which can be used with cable as well, but I don't think anyone is using it, and I think they've pretty much settled on QAM for digital cable in U.S.

It's only 19.38Mb/s payload in 6MHZ channel OTA with ATSC 8VSB because the rest of the bandwidth(it's something over 30Mb/s total, I'm sure HDTVfanatic or other broadcast pro's that may be reading could give you the exact #'s, as I don't have them handy at present) is needed for Trellis coding+error correction for robust OTA transmission+reception, something that's not necessary when sending signal over a wire. The maximum datarates for other signal modulations in use for OTA DTV around the world aren't much different from that.

I think its 38 Mb/s available payload in 6MHZ channel using QAM 256 signal modulation. It's about the same with 16VSB which can be used with cable as well, but I don't think anyone is using it, and I think they've pretty much settled on QAM for digital cable in U.S.

It's only 19.38Mb/s payload in 6MHZ channel OTA with ATSC 8VSB because the rest of the bandwidth(it's something over 30Mb/s total, I'm sure HDTVfanatic or other broadcast pro's that may be reading could give you the exact #'s, as I don't have them handy at present) is needed for Trellis coding+error correction for robust OTA transmission+reception, something that's not necessary when sending signal over a wire. The maximum datarates for other signal modulations in use for OTA DTV around the world aren't much different from that.

You hit the big number right - its 38.81Mbps on 256/QAM 6Mhz Channel.

QAM has been settled on for cable in the USA.

For ATSC 8VSB and Trellis Coding, use this handy cheat sheet near the bottom of the page:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html

Over the past 1-2 weeks I have noticed a significant increase in artifacting/pixilating on TWC digital channels. It started up at 114-1 (DiscoveryHD) and 114-2 (TNTHD) and has been "going down hill" from there. (I have a Toshiba with QAM tuner, so I am just getting the unencrypted digital channels.) Today, the pixilating was really bad on 22-1 and and 16-2. If I do OTA, things are fine, so I am thinking (hoping!) it is not my tuner.

Anyone know what might be causing this? Has TWC done any signficant system changes over the past couple of weeks? (I am in the Beavercreek area.) For the most part, I am getting a very strong signal with occasional drop outs, so it seems that it is something with the cable system

Any thoughts will be appreciated!

Thanks!

Don

The TWC technician just left and the verdict is that the main trunk line has a problem! The digital channels were anywhere from 7 to 15 db below nominal! (Why the set was saying signal strength was okay puzzles me!). Tech started at the TV and measured the signal. Said he would have to put a whole house amp on things. Told him there already was one and he immediately checked the level going into it. Needless to say, that signal was below spec. Then went out to the pedastal and checked all the outputs of the splitter on the main line; all low power. Topping things off is that the splitter that feeds my house and the 2 neighbors is at the end of that particular cable run. He said the ticket would be turned over to PM (plant maintenance, as in physical plant?)


At least it is not my set!

Don

My, I can't tell with any certianity if at least one of the WHIO-DT studio cams is HD or SD! Just nothing that pops out and gives it away for the "anchor desk" shot .. Very nice ....

I also like the 4x3 with "Wings" I saw during WHIO-DT local newscasts, today!

Update: added quotation marks to "wings" .... Or more specifically, colored pillarbars for those that don't like the term "wings", or don't think "wings" is specific enough in this case because there was no content in them besides a blue color ... LOL ..... It can really get silly can't it .......

I haven't had a chance to watch it much in the last week, but what I saw near end of 5:30 newscasts today seemed to indicate they are perhaps moving more to 4x3 with "wings" for 4x3 content(what little of it there has been, which is also very nice). I hope so, I like it so much better than the alternatives .....

I don't think the "expanded 4x3"-* was working too well, especially given they are doing center cut of it for the analog broadcast ....

* - Note -- I do have a hard time calling that, as it just seems to me to be be too "nice" of a name for it, given what it looks like ...

I did notice some fairly pronounced ghosts early last week during a couple of the field reports -- Not unusual for remote broadcasts in the analog world, but I wasn't quite expecting it in this case ...

Anyway --- don't want to sound too repetitive, but from what I've seen of it so far, They're really doing a fine Job with it, IMO ....



For ATSC 8VSB and Trellis Coding, use this handy cheat sheet near the bottom of the page:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html


Thanks, I think that is also a pretty good ATSC DTV summary for folks who don't want to dig through the details of the ATSC white papers. I do especially like their "Guide to DTV standard" document however ...

Anyway, Here's another one that has that info also, as well as more 8VSB specific info for folks who might be interested in "how stuff works" :

http://www.broadcast.net/~sbe1/8vsb/8vsb.htm

Posted this in Cincinnati thread, but thought I'd post it here as well Since The Cincinnati stations pretty much cover Dayton area as well, and I know some of you might not read Cincinnati thread :

Cincinnati transmitters coverage maps have been added here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=821480&page=1&pp=30

This should be a great tool, such as for anyone looking at OTA reception possibilities/conditions for their specific location, especially perhaps when terrain obstruction may be an issue - Thanks much to Andy S. Lee for putting it together for us!

----------------

Update : Note that Longely-Rice coverage maps for all the Dayton transmitters are Included in the Current Cincinnati file as well, so this should still be useful now for Dayton metro area folks. We'll have to wait a while for Columbus/Lima/etc, and the centered on "dayton MSA" file.

Pretty cool, and looks to be pretty accurate with what I get with the exception of one or two of the analogs.

Does anyone know why the satellite view turns blurry to the west of I-75? Just a couple miles east of I-75 you can see a definite division line.

Pretty cool, and looks to be pretty accurate with what I get with the exception of one or two of the analogs.


Which ones? Note there are a couple of the LP's in there which are using proposed facilities detailed in Application to FCC rather than their current facilities. I noted this in my corrections post in the other thread. - In Dayton, W66AQ is one of those.

As I also mentioned in another post on that thread, WRCX-LP is showing signficantly stronger(Yellowish green) at my location than I'm getting from them(which is generally a bit "snowy"/on the weak side), and WWHO looks perhaps a little on the optimistic side as well(awfully hard to say on that one though, as should be the case we're talking about purple or No shading near my location - Given what I get from them I just expected it to be "no shading" for my exact location instead of purple) ...

Another one I didn't mention in that post as I hadn't looked at it yet that is showing significantly stronger for my location than what I'm getting is WPTO 14 ... It's showing Green, but what I get from them is something just less of Grade B signal - Just a bit "snowy" so to speak when leaves are off trees, worse when leaves are on.

Looking at terrain profiles with other, Topo software, I know the path to WPTO is signficantly obstructed by terrain from my location, and the same is probably true for WRCX-LP's lower antenna height(and the same is true for WWHO as well, although it's harder to say as that one is beyond curvature of earth anyway+my software for the elevation profiles doesn't take curvature of earth into account) ...

Looking at other areas and noticing that indeed for the most part you can see where modeling seems to fit well with the terrain(where there are obstructions the colors change to indicate weaker signal/etc) looks "right", It looks like to me its possible that for some of the terrain near my specific location, it might not quite be accurate enough involving the more terrain obstructed signal paths(such as for WPTO).

What I'm seeing for the Other Stations in the area (Including weaker ones such as WKON, W20CL, W36DG, WAVE) however seem to be much more accurate - astoundingly accurate in some cases, and those are in directions where Terrain issues are generally not as severe as is the case for WPTO especially, although it is certianly not LOS, either. But, it's a bit difficult to say, as I'm using antenna (XG91 for UHF)/preamp which is 35FT above ground, whereas these maps are for "ground level"/etc. and don't take antenna gain/etc. into account .. And then, among other things there are all the nearby trees it doesn't account for either ... So, its possible it could still be showing something a little more optimistic than what is the case at my location at "ground level" with no antenna gain/etc overall ....

So, it's just a WAG(which could certianly be wrong), but I'm thinking at this point some of the terrain at my location may be such that it might need more resolution for the terrain data than is being modeled in this case, especially involving the situation for WPTO or WRCX perhaps.

I asked Andy what he thought about it on the other thread, I'll be quite interested to see his reply.



Does anyone know why the satellite view turns blurry to the west of I-75? Just a couple miles east of I-75 you can see a definite division line.

Not sure if this is what you're talking about, but if you zoom way out you'll see it looks like several "sections" of the data just East of 75 have different coloring/etc, as if this data was based on Aerial photos(or from a sat) which were taken on different days with different weather conditions and Sun angles/etc ....

It does I suppose look "blurrier" in a sense at some "zoom" levels especially where "stuff" is more "brighter"(streets/top of buildings/etc) to the West of that "dividing line" between the sections that's a couple miles east of 75.

Pretty cool, and looks to be pretty accurate with what I get with the exception of one or two of the analogs.

Does anyone know why the satellite view turns blurry to the west of I-75? Just a couple miles east of I-75 you can see a definite division line.

You can find that all over Google Earth.

Different images from different times - patched together - different resolution.

The more detailed stuff cost more money as well - so they might not have purchased the higher detail images in those areas.

Or perhaps they are blurring so you wont see the aliens at the AFB :D In all honesty, there was a controversy several years ago as they have completely taken out the CIA Headquarters in Langley Virginia.

Could be a multitude of reasons.

Or perhaps they are blurring so you wont see the aliens at the AFB :D I know you're joking, but the images that include the air force base are the best quality for the area. It's also east of I75, not west.

Which ones? Note there are a couple of the LP's in there which are using proposed facilities detailed in Application to FCC rather than their current facilities. I noted this in my corrections post in the other thread. - In Dayton, W66AQ is one of those.....

For instance, WXIX and WSTR analog are unwatchable but it appears to be a good amount of signal this way. It doesn't matter...just an observation.

For instance, WXIX and WSTR analog are unwatchable but it appears to be a good amount of signal this way.

Just curious, as I think I remember, more or less where you're located ...

You might want to check out a website/new tool that allows you to punch in your addrress or lat/long coordiates + receive antenna height and do the "radar plot"+chart, which also contains a detailed signal strength readout for a specific location. The terrain detail used is more detailed than that for the coverage maps. See here for info+a link, and the "signal analysis FAQ" on the site for info on how to interpet the results :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10314120&&#post10314120

Anyone watch King of Queens last night on WHIO ?? We were getting drastic volume fluctuations with it. I literally had my finger on the volume control going up and down so that I could hear the dialog one minute and not wake the kids the next !

I get it via OTA, through a Dish 622 receiver. No Dolby Digital, just regular audio through the TV.

Anyone watch King of Queens last night on WHIO ?? We were getting drastic volume fluctuations with it. I literally had my finger on the volume control going up and down so that I could hear the dialog one minute and not wake the kids the next !

I get it via OTA, through a Dish 622 receiver. No Dolby Digital, just regular audio through the TV.

Just got done watching it via my SA8300HD and I had the exact same problem. This is the second time i've seen this through WHIO-DT a couple of months ago a Rules of Engagement episode had the same problem.

I looked for a King of Queens thread in the "HDTV Programming" area but saw nothing so I suspect it's a WHIO problem, not CBS (???).

I looked for a King of Queens thread in the "HDTV Programming" area but saw nothing so I suspect it's a WHIO problem, not CBS (???).


I think my wife was watching last night on TW 707. She complained of lack of sound and turned to TW Ch. 12 (WKRC). Sound was fine on ch. 12 (but no HD o TWC-Dayton).

Does anyone know how to get Zap2it to add a Channel to their Lineup for an area?

We've had UniversalHD since the Masters were on , but Zap2it still doesn't have it listed (and this affects my program guide in Vista Media Center).

If they're like TitanTV, good luck.... I reported an error to them, got a run-around response that suggested a) the person didn't understand my report or b) didn't read it, and in the end, nothing. At this point, I don't remember what it was about.

I can understand them not taking my word for it but at least use user-reports or comments to follow-up with the provider.

Does anyone know how to get Zap2it to add a Channel to their Lineup for an area?

Yesterday I sent them an email per the link on their website and included the information they asked for (regarding Universal HD in Sidney area). Today I received an email from them saying they are investigating it. We'll see if it gets added.

Is WHIO DT down?

Is WHIO DT down?

It was this afternoon+evening and yesterday afternoon when I checked it as well ..

It's back on air tonight though, at least at 9:40pm ...

Just an update to Axlrod's question about getting Zap2it to update local listings. I emailed Zap2it on Tuesday, April 25th and I checked today, April 29th and they have updated the listing with UniversalHD as I had requested.

Had sound level issues on King of Queens again tonight on WHIO. Getting it OTA with a DirecTV HR10 receiver.

Voice levels were very low. Music track was fine, and commercials were fine.

Had sound level issues on King of Queens again tonight on WHIO. Getting it OTA with a DirecTV HR10 receiver.

Voice levels were very low. Music track was fine, and commercials were fine.

Same issues on TW HD

Lighting Guy: Are TNT-HD and Discovery HD Theatre "in the clear" again ??


I know you asked this a long time ago, but I've been away from the forums since my last post and didn't see anyone else answer it. If you haven't figured out already TNT-HD and Disc-HD are still broadcast in the clear for me on 114-1 and 114-2. Haven't seen anything else new in the clear though.

For those that watch WBNS-DT columbus, interesting info on their local HD News setup in top portion of this article :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.5774.html

---------------------------------

Update:

BTW, can anyone verify the info at below link concerning WHIO widescreen news ? ... The part where it says the studio cams and studio shots are HD? .... Some of it is a bit difficult to tell at times, but for the most part the studio shots look SD to me (It does still look good though) ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHIO-TV#High_Definition

Update:

BTW, can anyone verify the info at below link concerning WHIO widescreen news ? ... The part where it says the studio cams and studio shots are HD? .... Some of it is a bit difficult to tell at times, but for the most part the studio shots look SD to me (It does still look good though) ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHIO-TV#High_Definition


There is no way that they are sending HD for their in studio news broadcasts... I agree it does look very good for 16:9 SD, but it's not HD...

Someone shoot an e-mail to Chuck, pointing to the wikipedia entry and see what he says. According to this page, http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=WHIO-TV&action=history, a character named "terryfoster" may know more information.... :D Hmmm, that name rings a bell....

All I did was request a citation which is nicer than just removing it as uncited, bogus information. I'm leaning towards rewording it to reflect what's likely more accurate. Since I can't seem to find any announcement for HD news on whiotv.com, I HIGHLY doubt they're producing HD local news.

Sorry, it's hard to tell exactly what each person did.... Looks like the guilty person is anonymous, revised on Feb 25th, near as I can tell.

you mean widescreen is not hd all the time :p

Well, am pulling in The Lima DT stations(82 Miles distant) via a bit of enhanced signal propagation this morning, so am seeing WLIO-DT and WTLW-DT for the first time ...

WLIO-DT 8 does indeed have NBC HD, Including for Today show this morning .... They're also running a "CW" SD multicast subchannel, currently running the syndicated program "The daily buzz".

WTLW-DT 47 appears to just has a single program service, simulcast of their analog station. It does remap to 44.1 .....

Update: WBGU-DT 56 Bowling Green, and Columbus digitals are in nicely this morning as well ... Farthest I'm seeing DTV wise is A couple of the Toledo DT's (WNWO-DT 24/WTOL-DT 17) decoding occasionally

First time I've had a chance to see WBNS-DT's HD news ... In fact, it's the first HD Local news I've seen ....

Are there any TWC subscribers who have ordered an HD OnDemand movie? If so are they all in OAR?

Called TWC today to request BigTenHD and FSN-HD. Rep actually knew what HD was. He said there has been alot of interest in BigTenHD and FSN-HD (per the list of requests being kept), and also informed me that ESPN2HD would be here this summer. ESPNHD and ESPN2HD will be on the standard tier rather than the HD Tier (ESPNHD will be moved when ESPN2HD is added).

There is no way that they are sending HD for their in studio news broadcasts... I agree it does look very good for 16:9 SD, but it's not HD...


A few years ago WHIO-TV bought new studio camera's the camera's was SD.

I've read thru a few pages on here but don't exactly have the time to read all 90... so here's a rather simple question.

I'm moving to Dayton in a couple weeks (new job, etc.) and will be a resident until eternity as of right now. ;-) Anyway, I'll be living in an apartment and most likely getting cable (TWC - sigh) and just wondered how many digital channels go over the air (without any HD packages) that my QAM tuner should pick up?

Thanks in advance... and any other suggestions/information for a newbie to the area would be much appreciated as well!

WHIO (CBS), WKEF (ABC), WRGT (FOX), and possibly (2) PBS stations depending where you live, but you'll get (1) for sure. Note: NO NBC.

Apparently you can get Discovery HD Theatre, TNT-HD, and possibly Universal HD in the clear. Those may be turned off at any time though.

WHIO (CBS), WKEF (ABC), WRGT (FOX), and possibly (2) PBS stations depending where you live, but you'll get (1) for sure. Note: NO NBC.

Apparently you can get Discovery HD Theatre, TNT-HD, and possibly Universal HD in the clear. Those may be turned off at any time though.

UniversalHD is on the HD tier and doesn't come through in the clear over QAM

Thanks for the responses... so in your own opinions (I basically want HD for Discovery and sports) do you think I'd be wise to spend the extra $$ for the HD tier? This is assuming that ESPN does get moved down to standard cable as expected.

I'm moving to Beavercreek two weeks from today, so just trying to figure out as much as possible beforehand. Not even sure if I am allowed a sat dish at my apartment (and never have liked satellite much) but any thoughts on that vs TWC in the Dayton/Beavercreek area?

Much appreciated!

The typical "cable vs satellite" debate applies. There's no right or wrong answer, sorry...

What questions about TW's service do you have ?? Regardless of location in the greater Dayton area, you don't see different "levels" in Beavercreek vs Dayton vs Englewood and so on.

Yea, I figured that much - just wasn't sure if there was anything special in the area that would affect the usual debate towards one direction or the other.

I know I can access all the lineups and whatnot from TW's site and dig around there, so I'm not going to ask everyone here things I can figure out on my own. I guess just if anyone has any special suggestions based on prior experiences, knowledge of any promotions, that kind of thing really.

I really only care about sports programming, and right now I have (not by choice) TWC (the "limited + HD Tier + HBO + Sports Pack + Internet" package). Not sure what kind of sports that you like to follow, but TWC is really on the short end.

The Big Ten Network (HD) will be on DirecTV, but nothing has been announced on TWC or Dish. FSN-HD (for the Reds, Blue Jackets, Xavier and Dayton basketball and other college football and basketball programming in HD) is only on DirecTV (although it is available in SD on TWC and Dish). Sunday Ticket and the NFL network is on DirecTV, but not on TWC, if you like pro football. With DirecTV you can also get all the regional sports networks. TWC does have "Fox College Sports," which is basically selected programming from the regional FSNs, but its not really dependable if you want to watch a particular game. TWC is supposedly going to add ESPN2HD and ESPNU this summer. Everything else is pretty much equal. Then there is the picture quality debate (and, in my opinion, TWC w/cablecard is the best right now).

All of the promotions TWC lists on their website or they mail out tie their digital phone service into any deals. If you combine TV + internet + phone with them, you can get really good rates for one year.

dc10forlife: How long have you had that package combination ?? I know a few people were able to get very stripped down packages but I was unable to when I tried.

I'm moving to Beavercreek two weeks from today, so just trying to figure out as much as possible beforehand. Not even sure if I am allowed a sat dish at my apartment (and never have liked satellite much) but any thoughts on that vs TWC in the Dayton/Beavercreek area?


As for Sat, right now anyway -- in addition to the dish setup+HD receiver, for OTA HD from Dayton stations you'd also need OTA antenna. I don't think HD locals are carried LiL for Dayton market yet, from either E*(Dish Network) or D* (DirecTV) ....

As for the Dayton HD broadcast stations not carried on TW cable In Dayton area, in addition to WDTN-DT(NBC HD) which Hall mentioned, he left one out : WBDT-DT Dayton - CW HD. I'm sure you know this, but just in case ... those go out "over the air", which does not mean they are automatically available on Cable(nowhere on cable either with say, just a analog cable subscription+QAM tuner or a sub to their HD tier+a TW supplied box), as TW+those stations haven't come to a deal yet to allow TW to carry those signals on their system.

Also, Most folks In Dayton area should also be able to have some luck regarding OTA reception of Cincinnati or Columbus HD stations. Why is that a good thing? Well, for a couple of examples, Such as for MYTV HD from WSTR-DT Cincinnati, or currently for say, Wheel of Fortune + Jeopardy in HD from WCPO-DT Cincinnati. Or, for example different NFL HD games in some cases occasionally airing from the different markets. Or for when airing of other non-network programming(such as local sports or billy graham specials) prempts HD programming from the Dayton affiliate. Then, there are those rare occasions when "technical glitches", or weather or other "emergency related" warnings/coverage sometimes cause local affilate to drop to SD or in some cases "distort" the HD (or SD) pictures to "squeeze those mesasges in".

You can't do any of that in beavercreek currently with either cable or satellite, though, including CW HD from the Dayton affilate. You'd need to use OTA instead, and there's nothing wrong for example with using say BOTH cable+OTA .....

For indoor antenna from beavercreek apartment, you'd probably have to get lucky For reception of Cincinnati or Columbus .... Which can happen, But odds would probably be better if the windows in your apartment face the transmitting towers for either of those cities. For example, Getting antenna near West or south facing windows might be a good idea for both Dayton+Cincinnati stations. And if you're on an upper floor that would probably help .... even better would be a MATV system on the roof setup for OTA for the apartment residents, unfortunetly that's probably not very common for apartment buildings in our area these days which are probably more commonly wired only for cable, and is even less common to be setup for Digital OTA reception ....

Jeff.. wow thank you for the plethora of information! Like you mentioned, as far as I know the only way I can do OTA will be from an indoor antenna... I have two (one amplified) already so we'll see how those work out if need be. My apartment IS on the second (top) floor - I do not enjoy living underneath people - so that should help out a little bit I hope. It's definitely great to know I should be able to pick up signals from multiple markets if I can get the antenna situation to work for me.

Also, since I will need internet I'll more than likely be having to go the way of cable just to get some sort of package deal... but again I'll see what's out there - and what the apartments allow.

Anyway, I'm still quite new to this whole HDTV thing... not that I haven't followed it all for a long time since I'm a technology guy... but I just finally got my first HDTV recently. So again, thanks for all the information from everyone so far and I'm sure that I'll be back with more questions while I get situated in my new place.

I do not enjoy living underneath people -


LOL ... Know what you mean .... I lived for a time in a 3rd floor(top floor) apartment in Fairborn while in College .... Luckily, I don't think the 2nd floor apartment under us was rented to anyone .....


I have two (one amplified) already so we'll see how those work out if need be.


Well, if nothing else I'm guessing you'll at least want NBC HD from OTA, so yep, you're probably going to want to pack the antennas ....

For instance, these things can change of course, but after 4+ years of WDTN-DT being on the air and providing HD, there's no sign I'm aware of they're going to reach a deal with TW for carriage rights, nor regarding WBDT-DT + TW carriage of their CW HD ..... It's just wild speculation, but I'm guessing there's a good chance that might change by say, around, oh, Feb 2009 or so ;)

I also dunno what's going to happen post analog shut off regarding carriage of the digital/HD counterparts for some of the non-PBS Cincinnati analog(only) stations which are currently carried in some areas of Dayton on cable, that's going to be interesting to see what happens as well ....


It's definitely great to know I should be able to pick up signals from multiple markets if I can get the antenna situation to work for me.


Cincinnati+Dayton transmitter locations are close enough together(about 40 miles apart roughly) that it turns out the stations in both markets easily cover the majority of population in both markets, in this case meaning the Cincinnati+Dayton "metro" areas are well covered by most stations in both markets ... Beavercreek may generally be getting more into "outdoor antenna" territory" for reliable reception of Cincinnati or Columbus(Columbus may be a little more difficult than Cincinnati, but it's hard to say), though again sometimes you can get "lucky" ....

You might want to punch in your new address here and see what it predicts regarding signal levels from the OTA stations in the area+ perhaps get a bit of an idea concerning your chances for indoor reception possibilities :

www.tvfool.com

dc10forlife: How long have you had that package combination ?? I know a few people were able to get very stripped down packages but I was unable to when I tried.

I've had the limited + Hd for well over a year. Added the sports tier for cstv last fall. When they let me add the sports tier, I thought, what the heck, why not add hbo.

On 5/14/07 FCC granted a analog construction permit for W66AQ Dayton --- LP analog(currently) translator for WSTR 64 Cincinnati(MyTV, HD from their digital) - WSTR+the translator is owned by Sinclair, which as you know also owns or operates both WKEF and WRGT.

The application for this was submitted as a "displacement" application. W66AQ has to move off channel 66 at some point, because it's outside of the core channels for post transistion TV/DTV broadcasting(channel 2-51) and therefore on spectrum which is being reclaimed for other uses(channel 52~69) ...

The CP is to move to Channel 22 via repurposing/utilizing WKEF 22 analog current facilities, but at lower power ... In order to do this, of course given the "world of the FCC", they had to have/submit an interference agreement with WKEF, even though I think it's a given that it seems quite unlikely both stations will actually be "sharing" 22 ...

While it isn't "specified" anywhere I can find, I'd venture a wild guess that they are probably planning on moving W66AQ to 22 on, about, or sometime just after Feb 18, 2009 ;)

What I think is probably most interesting about this, is :

#1) The greatly improved signal/coverage area which should result for W66AQ after they make the move to the "top" of WKEF 22 analog tower+with increased Power(not to mention their current directional antenna pattern on 66) vs. their current facilities.

#2). AND the interesting way they've found to continue to utilize the WKEF 22 analog facilities past analog shut off Note --- according to info at FCC, WKEF ANALOG appears to be the only station transmitting from the WKEF tower, which as I recall was the tallest tower in Dayton when it was built in the Late 70's -- WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT, WBDT-DT and WBDT and WRGT analogs all apparently broadcast from WRGT's tower according to coordinate info for their transmitting antennas on FCC site, which is the one with a crossmember added several years ago+3 visable masts on top. I had heard at one point that WRCX-LP 40 might have been using, or planning to use a spot from WKEF's tower as well, but the coordinates for them on FCC site for their transmitting antenna seem to suggest a slightly different tower location.

#3). Most interesting I think --- Is that of course, while FULL service stations have to shut down analog at/by 11:59PM, 2/17/09 --- Presently, we have no analog "shut off" date for Analog LP stations ... FCC has said they will be addressing LP analog shut off at a future time, but one can likely assume with some accuracy analog shut off for LP stations will be required at some time after(perhaps WELL after) Feb 2009. For the most part, they've just recently began the LPTV transistion to digital ... Some LP stations of course will be flash cutting to digital before any such LP analog "shut off" occurs, as it's allowed for them to do that even currently ...

So, interestingly enough, It looks like to me at this point there will still be some decent analog OTA signals for folks to "tune to" from some of the LP's in this area after the full service analogs shut off on feb 17, 2009 ...

I think it will also be interesting to see when/if W66AQ (Note they'll get a new callsign with a "22" in it once they make the move to 22) does their transistion to digital ... That could(and probably will if they get that far) involve a flash cut from analog to digital on 22, or could also I suppose potentially involve a digital companion channel ....

Note that the current (analog) construction permit for W66AQ on 22 expires on 5/14/2010 --Basically meaning they have until that date to "move it" to 22 ....

Detailed info on W66AQ (including the CP for 22) is available here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=W66AQ&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=&size=9

Current W66AQ predicted coverage map:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TX30045.html

Future W66AQ on channel 22 Coverage map :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=TX1125566.html

Hello all... My wife and I usually have the Reds games on during the evening on FSN (channel 29 for us). We have TWC out of the south Dayton area. Over the last few weeks, the feed keeps cutting out. At least that is what I THINK is happening. For a few moments, there is nothing on the screen (no sound or video). Is anyone else experiencing this? I have a tech coming out to the house this weekend to address a low signal problem I seem to be having, could that be it? Thanks, in advance, for any insight the community can provide!

Hello all... My wife and I usually have the Reds games on during the evening on FSN (channel 29 for us). We have TWC out of the south Dayton area. Over the last few weeks, the feed keeps cutting out. At least that is what I THINK is happening. For a few moments, there is nothing on the screen (no sound or video). Is anyone else experiencing this? I have a tech coming out to the house this weekend to address a low signal problem I seem to be having, could that be it? Thanks, in advance, for any insight the community can provide!

I watched last night's game via Dish network and didn't notice any problems (other than the bullpen :p ).

// Scott A

I am in Beavercreek. I have an indoor antenna. Basic kind antenna qith UHF hoop and VHF ears. RCA with a little dial on it for something. I can pick up all the channels OTA channels but not at the same time. Seems I have to move the antenna to get channel 7 in then change it to get 26 for example. Can anyone suggest a powerful yet appealing antenna I can add that will at least pull in all Dayton OTA channels without having to move it? I hear the Silver Sensor and Terk are ok but nothing too special.

Thanks for the help.

I have (no longer use) the Terk HDTVi (non-amplifed) antenna, which is sort of a copy of the Silver Sensor. I had it sitting in my attic and was able to receive all of the local channels without moving it. I'm in East Dayton though, much closer to the towers than you. Someone else in Beavercreek, or maybe it's Xenia, uses a Silver Sensor and gets all the channels without having to move/adjust the antenna.

For the same price as those, you can get Radio Shack's U75R antenna. It's an "outdoor" type. It's not something you'll mount inside your house though ! Mine's in the attic....

I currently have the lifeline package for TWC (basically so I can get WXIX for UC football and basketball games). I get up through channel 25 on the analog spectrum. Any idea if TWC is required to also send me the HD locals in the clear with this package?

I've seen "quotes" from FCC rulings or something that does in fact state this. Your problem will be getting an HD set-top from them without buying/upgrading to a digital tier .... unless you have something with a QAM tuner in it (PC tuner card, aftermarket set-top, TV w/digital tuner). Remember the "Rakesh S package" ?? That was what you want.

I have a tuner card that has QAM. I was unable to find any HD channels when doing a scan the other day. I'll check it out again and see what I can find. Maybe I'll type in those specific frequencies and see if I can see it.

Since they have the filter on my line I have the feeling they are being filtered out.

Keep in mind, I don't think Dayton cable carries the Cincinnati digital broadcast signals, currently other than (PBS) WCET-DT and WPTO-DT in some areas.

I think Antenna would be best option for Cincinnati digital/HD stations. With perhaps some exceptions regarding severe nearby terrain issues for some locations, Cincinnati signals OTA cover entire Dayton area very nicely.

I've seen "quotes" from FCC rulings or something that does in fact state this.

There seems to be quite a difference of opinion regarding whether or not all digital broadcast signals carried by cablecos are required to be carried as unencrypted and available to all subscribers, such as even those using only analog cable subscription+via the most "basic" tier of service.

The short answer+Bottom line is, at present some cableco's do provide all the digital broadcast signals(including HD - it is clear cableco's are not currently allowed to downrez HD as the stations send it at cable headend, unless perhaps the station specifically requests it) they carry as unencrypted, some don't.

Concerning those cablecos that are currently providing them "in the clear" such that a user(including lifeline analog cable subscriber) with user supplied QAM tuner can utilze those signals(the cableco certianly isn't required to provide the equipment to view the digital/HD signals) -- That of course, could change .....

Interestingly, I do believe FCC did make clear several times in a recent NPRM(released May 4, 2007) related to cable carriage of digital broadcast signals that digital signals carried via MUST CARRY requirements must be available to all cable subscribers. But (in IMO unlike an earlier somewhat similar FCC document regarding this issue - which you'll find info on in the links I've provided at bottom of this message) they didn't specifiy anything about digital signals carried by cableco via retransmission consent -- Do keep in mind Currently, stations can only choose must carry rights for either their digital OR analog signals, not both -- Therefore, one can likely assume most(probably all in our area) digital broadcast signals currently carried on cable are carried via retransmission consent rules.

Here is a quote(with referrences to footnotes removed), paragraph #16 from that recent NPRM (Note : When they refer to "the Act", they are talking about "The communications act of 1934" as enacted and amended over the years by congress) :


16. Pursuant to Sections 614 and 615 of the Act, cable operators must ensure that all cable subscribers have the ability to view all local broadcast stations carried pursuant to mandatory carriage. Specifically, Section 614(b)(7) (for commercial stations) states that broadcast signals that are subject to mandatory carriage must be “viewable via cable on all television receivers of a subscriber which are connected to a cable system by a cable operator or for which a cable operator provides a connection.” Similarly, Section 615(h) for noncommercial stations states that “Signals carried in fulfillment of the carriage obligations of a cable operator under this section shall be available to every subscriber as part of
the cable system’s lowest priced tier that includes the retransmission of local commercial television broadcast signals.” These statutory requirements plainly apply to cable carriage of digital broadcast signals, and, as a consequence, cable operators must ensure that all cable subscribers – including those
with analog television sets – continue to be able to view all commercial and non-commercial must-carrybroadcast stations after February 17, 2009."


The entire NPRM is available for Download here in PDF format :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-71A1.pdf

----------------

Here are several links for more info, in these posts, you'll find links+discussion of to the FCC rules+previous FCC documents of interest regarding this matter --- You might also want to read/browse through some of the other posts in the following threads, as again, there seems to be quite a difference of opinion on this issue :

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7307889&&#post7307889

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10580275&&#post10580275

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9215225&&#post9215225

Just an FYI, I was able to pick up the QAM signals with my Hauppauge HVR-1600 card even with the lifeline package from Time Warner. I believe they must filter out channels 26-90 (or somewhere in that area), and any channels higher than that can be scanned for QAM signals.

I believe they must filter out channels 26-90 (or somewhere in that area), and any channels higher than that can be scanned for QAM signals. They specifically told me they couldn't "selectively" filter -- or didn't want to -- channels like that when I inquired about doing this 1-1/2 years ago.

They have a special filter on my line on the pole, no doubt about it (I can see it). I get analog 2-25, then the QAM channels. I actually receive a lot of QAM channels, but most are encrypted.

That is the funny thing about TW. If you pay for the base package (channel 2-26?) then they will put a filter on your line so they only allow those channels to come through. I recently cancelled TW cable and kept the Roadrunner. I turned my 8300 boxes in. I still get 2-96 analog channels. They will not take the time or bother dispatching a tech to come out and filter the line as it is not worth it for them financially. I still get QAM as well.

They will not take the time or bother dispatching a tech to come out and filter the line as it is not worth it for them financially. I still get QAM as well. They will eventually or at least there's a work order for it to be done. It is low priority for them though. Part of the "logic" is, you know you canceled so why would you try and watch the channels. They won't work.... well, they want you to think that.

Since no one ever really comes back to post up results, I figured I'd post up that I have succesfully set up an antenna combo on my house to recieve all of the HD offerings from Dayton and Cincy. :D It's a ChannelMaster UHF/VHF antenna I got on cleanrance from Lowes for $26. Don't remember the specific model number but the UHF range is supposedly 35 miles which is obvciously not true as I am WAY past 35 miles from Cincy and VHF is 60. No preamp used. I get 100% signal strength on all of the Dayton stations and 70-75% on the Cincy stations. Had a bit of a multipath problem initially, but re-aimed it and it's good to go.

This is using an E* VIP 622 reciever.

Do you have a rotor on that antenna, Keith? Where about in Dayton do you live? Up on a hill, in a valley?

I think most antenna makers will under-rate their range vs claiming it can do further than typical. They don't want to say it has a range of 60 miles when that's only under *ideal* conditions.

No rotor. I live in Huber Heights in the vicinity of Brandt Pike and Kitridge Rd. :) I am on a the downslope of a hill that faces Dayton which I'm sure is what makes it possible. Pretty much all of the stations fall within a 15-20° range of each other so I just aimed it towards the middle and left it at that.

And you pick up the Cincy channels without any issues as well? Or do you have to move the antenna if you want to pick up the Cincy channels?

Huber Heights area is an excellent location to receive Dayton+Cincinnati stations with directional antenna and one antenna heading.


Since no one ever really comes back to post up results, I figured I'd post up that I have succesfully set up an antenna combo on my house to recieve all of the HD offerings from Dayton and Cincy.


Thanks for following up! Unfortunetly, I think we see more posts here from folks having problems rather than folks posting of their reception success -- hopefully that doesn't give folks who are reading the wrong idea, as of course it's often not that difficult to achieve good reception.

BTW, It has been a while, but I recall we've had a couple of folks in this thread report excellent reception of Dayton, Cincinnati AND Columbus stations(rotor needed for latter, probably a fairly hi-gain setup as well) from Huber Heights area.


Don't remember the specific model number but the UHF range is supposedly 35 miles which is obvciously not true as I am WAY past 35 miles from Cincy and VHF is 60.


Trying to describe the performance attributes of an antenna with mileage "ratings" is ridiculous IMO. For example, An antenna that's "rated" for 35 miles maximum doesn't stop "working" beyond that distance, and in some circumstances may very well work just fine at distances very near the "fringe area". Which could be much farther than 35 Miles, especially, say regarding reception of stations in a market where the transmitting antennas are located on the tops of mountians(L.A. would be one example of this). While on the other hand, an antenna with more gain and/or better directivity can sometimes be required for distances closer than 35 miles due to issues such as terrain blockage, attenuation by trees, multipath issues/etc.

Gain+polar pattern is a much better way to attempt to describe an antenna's performance.

It can be useful to Look at specs regarding antennas gain+directivity, Along with using tools such as the signal prediction plot (or station coverage maps) at www.tvfool.com to get a general idea of what "level" of antenna performance(and whether you may need a rotor) may be required for a specific location+stations you desire to receive.

In *many* circumstances concerning all but the fringe areas, I think a small~Medium Size VHF/UHF combo of conventional design (such as CM3016, RS VU90, Winegard PR7010+ with rotor if desired or necessary) mounted outdoors at rooftop levels will work very well, and is also a "one size fits all" futureproof solution regarding the possibility of new stations popping up in other spots on the dial .... And it is probably a good place for many going the DIY route to start, as antennas such as CM3016+VU90 are relatively inexpensive+it's not too difficult to swap antennas(or add preamp) to something with more gain/directivity later on if its necessary. Same thing with UHF only antennas such as CM4221, DB2, RS- U75R, all of which do offer a bit better UHF performance than the UHF sections on typical VHF/UHF combo antennas -- Although, there really isn't anywhere around here I can think of where there aren't VHF stations(Columbus, Lima, Indy or Cincinnati) within range(including after analog shut off).

If size is a concern, or getting the most performance for the smallest antenna "size" is of interest -- The biggest "part" of VHF/UHF combo antennas are for reception of lo-VHF channel 2-6 (and FM) .... It could change, but, there aren't any lo-VHF DTV stations in this area currently, and at this point it looks like there aren't going to be ANY lo-VHF DTV stations in this area post analog shut off. So seperate hi-VHF(ch 7-13) and UHF antenna, such as say a DB2, CM4221 or U75R for UHF and a Winegard YA-1713 HI-VHF antenna would be generally "smaller" than a typical VHF/UHF combo, and also offer signifciantly better performance than a small VHF/UHF combo such as RS VU90 or CM3016 .... You could even start with a UHF only antenna(as all Dayton stations are UHF, and many of the digital stations in nearby markets are UHF as well, although a few important ones are hi-VHF, or will be after analog shut off), and leave room on the mast for the VHF antenna for later installation.

But, There's allways the chance that someday we could end up with VHF-LO local digital stations(such as new stations/LP DTV stations/stations moving around on the dial, the latter which generally doesn't happen that often) in the area. If that were to turn out to be a station(s) you'd want to receive, then we're back to the VHF/UHF combo antenna being a good "one size fits all" futureproof solution .... And, it's why it's a good "one size fits all" for the present as well, if you want improved FM and lo-VHF analog reception. Such as for for current analog TV stations Dayton 2, Cincy 5, Columbus 4+6, Indy 6 .....

I forgot to mention... The antenna is a CM3018. Still having some slight issues with WHIO-DT, but I'm not 100% convinced that it's my equipment at this point. I remember a few weeks back having all sorts of problems with WHIO that I've never had before and then a day or two later everything was good again.

That all said, I think the performance of my U75R I have in the attic is better than the UHF portion of this Channel Master anteanna and I think I may see if there's a way to attach the U75R to VHF section of the CM antenna.

I will say it is really nice looking at the programming guide and seeing all of those choices!

I forgot to mention... The antenna is a CM3018. Still having some slight issues with WHIO-DT, but I'm not 100% convinced that it's my equipment at this point. I remember a few weeks back having all sorts of problems with WHIO that I've never had before and then a day or two later everything was good again.


My best guesses would be possibly :

#1) multipath issues(which can be quite frequency specific). Especially perhaps if it gets worse when wind blows tree limbs around -- Concerning the latter, AGC (automatic gain control) circuit in your receiver not quite being able to "keep up" with rapid changes due to fading+disturbances caused by the wind blowing tree limbs around could be an issue involved as well.

That sort of thing can be a PITA to fix. A different location for the antenna can help, or a different antenna model (with more directivity for example) can help.

#2) Should be unlikely, I'd think, but suppose it's possible you could be getting too much signal+overloading front-end of your receiver, even without a preamp. This Should probably be pretty easy to find out if this is a problem, as all you'd have to do is add some additional attenuation in feedline (attenuators, or even adding 2 or 4 way splitters would work) to see if things get better from them. Of course, that's more along the lines of something to try for diagnosing problem to check to see if it helps, as you'd be attenuating the weaker signals as well, hopefully not by too much ....


That all said, I think the performance of my U75R I have in the attic is better than the UHF portion of this Channel Master anteanna and I think I may see if there's a way to attach the U75R to VHF section of the CM antenna.


hmm ... I wouldn't think the UHF performance would be all that much better/different from the U75R, but, it's certianly worth a try(especially perhaps regarding if multipath is the culprit involving your WHIO-DT problem) or, if nothing else might make for an interesting experiment .....

You could use a VHF/UHF Joiner(used to combine seperate VHF/UHF antennas) such as CM#0549 to use the U75R for UHF only and the CM3018 for VHF only. CM0549(or something similar) should be available online from various sources, Dayton Wintronics should have those, or should be able to order one of those for you. (Lowe's doesn't carry CM's full line of stuff like Dayton Wintronic does).

BTW, Last time I was at Lowe's, I noticed they had less antenna stuff than usual -- don't know if it's true or not, but one of their employees said after the current CM stuff is gone, they will no longer carry CM stuff (something having to do with a new company that bought Lowe's he said), and they'll be stocking "phillips" stuff instead .... Which doesn't sound like a good thing to me from an OTA antenna standpoint ..... At Middletown store, They had already replaced their 1 1/4" mast sections with stuff from Phillips, and the CM mast sections they used to stock was better stuff(thicker gauge steel/etc)


I will say it is really nice looking at the programming guide and seeing all of those choices!

Yep, Enjoy!

Yep. All of the CM stuff at the Lowes in Huber is gone. All replaced with Phillip's stuff that costs nearly 2x of what the CM stuff did. It's a shame really.

My VIP 622 came with an attenuator for the 2nd TV output that I'm not using and going by the massive amount of info I've learned here, I went ahead and installed it on the feedline from the antenna. Same issues with WHIO and I lost enough of the signal from the cincy stations to make them un-watchable (went from 75 to 64 on the strength meter). :( I just checked antennaweb again and it appears that WHIO's location is farther away on the compas than where I have the antenna aimed at. I'm sure this is the issue. Hopefully a slight move will do the trick and not completely kill the reception I'm getting from Cincy.

Hopefully a slight move will do the trick and not completely kill the reception I'm getting from Cincy.

Yep ... hopefully :)

WHIO tower is farthest North of the Dayton stations -- But not by much .... BTW, Antennaweb info on WPTO-DT's location is incorrect -- It should show the same bearing as for WXIX tower Cincinnati, as that is where it transmits from currently - WPTO analog certianly transmits from Oxford, but the digital station transmits from Cincinnati .. The info they are using for WPTO-DT location is apparently for their original DTV station's construction permit from FCC(which was for WKOI's tower which is between Middletown+Oxford -- WPTO analog transmits from yet another tower in Oxford), which "changed" to WXIX's tower in Cincinnati about 5 years ago.

Anyhow, The multipath thing can be really tricky at times, and sometimes when it's a problem aiming antenna right at the tower isn't the best thing ... I'd probably start with aiming the antenna right at the weaker stations(cincinnati), and making small adjustments in aiming to see what works best for Both Dayton+Cincinnati .... I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but if all you're changing is the aiming of the antenna, even if you aim it for best results from WHIO-DT, it may still involve a dropout from WHIO-DT every now and then ..... Which really probably isn't as bad as it sounds, as of course you'll still have CBS HD programming from WKRC-DT Cincinnati .....

For the most part(not including perhaps problematical multipath issues), even with antennas with the best(most) directivity a difference in heading of about 7degrees or less isn't going to make much, if any difference, and when stronger signals are involved(ones without significant multipath issues) you can often have antenna aiming off much, much farther than that and still achieve excellent reception ....

OTOH, Small differences in antenna aiming can make a difference for multipath to some extent in some circumstances, but you may find for example, regarding finding that best "sweet spot" for very precise antenna aiming --- when leaves drop off trees(or wind starts blowing/etc) the problem might come back+ you may need to readjust the antenna aiming slightly ....

I have a question about unencrypted QAM in Fairborn (TWC). I had a pchdtv card set up awhile back, and got all the local network and PBS channels through QAM256, as well as Discover HD and TNT HD.

I just set things up again after an HD hiatus and now my card is no longer detecting Discover or TNT. Can anybody using QAM through Time Warner Fairborn confirm if these channels are unencrypted or not? Maybe my signal just isn't strong enough due to splitting, but all the other channels seem to come in fine.

I found TNTHD a week or so ago, in the 114 range. I still haven't found DiscoveryHD yet, but I haven't put much time in as I get it through satellite anyway.