As I understand multipath, it's very difficult to detect with a digital signal but is evident with "ghosting" and "shadows" on the analog side of things. Assuming that the digital and analog signals both come from the same spot, I observed nothing out of the ordinary on whio analog. They're not on the same frequency though.... I'm positive you can't compare them.

Well, I remember someone here once said if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's probably a duck? Yep, it's a NASTY case of multipath... There is no possible aiming direction of that channel master antenna on my roof that avoids it. Unfortuneately I ONLY have the issue with WHIO. *bang head* However, the u75r in my attic exhibits no multipath issues what-so-ever. Which one can only draw 2 conclusions from.

1. The UHF section of the channel master antenna is a POS
2. My roof does a good enough job of filtering out the signals that are bouncing off whatever it is causing the interferance enabling the u75r to get a clean signal. *sigh*

Next option is to remove the uhf portion, buy one of those antenna joiners from channel master, and slap the u75r on the roof and give it a go.

STUPID WHIO!! Figures that I can get a good enough signal lock on a TV station 50-60 miles away, but can't on one that I can actually see the tower for. *banghead x2*

Well, I'd be careful with the conclusions at this point ;) ... for instance, Attics+indoors are usually multipath nightmares .. I know your attenuator experiment seems to indicate you're probably not dealing with overload/intermod tuner sensitivity/selectivity issues, but I still wouldn't rule those or other "interference" issues out just yet given all the nearby strong signals in Dayton area in the direction your antenna is aimed ...

For instance, the U75R is UHF only, so it's not receiving strong FM or VHF signals like the CM3018 is, which could potentially overload your receiver+cause issues that show the same "symptoms" as multipath given the poor signal diagnostic tools we have on our receivers ....

One would think adding a good deal of attenuation would rule that out(given that WHIO-DT should be VERY strong to the point you could probably add a LOT of extra attenuation+not lose a lock on WHIO-DT while at the same time, you'd think knocking down the other strong signals enough, including VHF/FM signals) --- but If you haven't already done so, for example it might not be a bad idea to try a FM trap in line to the CM3018 and see what happens ....

Anhow -- concerning "splitting apart" the CM3018 -- I'm not extremely familiar with it -- but in general as VHF/UHF combos go, I wouldn't remove the UHF portion of CM3018, that may likely effect its VHF performance as well as effect its center of balance regarding how it's mounted to the mast. A VHF/UHF joiner will only pass VHF signals from the antenna you hook to it's VHF input, and only UHF signals from the antenna you hook to its UHF input, so you woudln't need to remove the UHF portion of CM3018. Also, You'd want to mount the U75R probably at least 3 feet or more away from the CM3018(such as above it), otherwise the antennas themselves can effect each other.

Anyhow Perhaps it Could be your outdoor antenna just happens to be mounted in a bad spot (regarding multipath echoes if multipath is indeed the issue here) for WHIO-DT .... You might want to try moving it up/down a bit, or in different spots mounted on a "pole"(temporarily) in your yard .... that would likely be easier to accomplish with the U-75R however ----- In fact, you might want to try it with JUST the U-75R first before picking up the VHF/UHF joiner -- You'll likely lose WCPO-DT+the analog VHF's, but if it works out, THEN you can add the CM0549 ....

Anyway --- Here's another idea for another option that would seem to work --- You could pick up a A/B switch(and extra coax if you don't already have seperate coax runs going to both antennas) +use the antenna in attic for WHIO-DT, and the CM3018 for everything else ....

Or, You might also be able to use a channel 41 CM UHF Jointenna (which allows you to use ONE antenna for reception of just ONE channel and another antenna for all other channels) and use the U-75R for WHIO-DT 41 and the CM3018 for everything else without the need for A/B switch ... If I recall correctly, UHF jointennas effect about 5 channels to some extent on either side of the channel its tuned for(the channels closer to the channel it's tuned for are effected more), So there might be an issue of some sort there regarding WKOI-DT 39 reception, or WRCX-LP 40(Dayton)reception ... Given both antennas will be aimed in same direction, however, hopefully not too much of an "issue" ....

--------------

Anyway, hope some of this helps+saves you some trial+error time ....

I have a question about unencrypted QAM in Fairborn (TWC). I had a pchdtv card set up awhile back, and got all the local network and PBS channels through QAM256, as well as Discover HD and TNT HD.

I just set things up again after an HD hiatus and now my card is no longer detecting Discover or TNT. Can anybody using QAM through Time Warner Fairborn confirm if these channels are unencrypted or not? Maybe my signal just isn't strong enough due to splitting, but all the other channels seem to come in fine.

Can't get them in Beavercreek. They went encrypted when I was still in Fairborn.

Can't get them in Beavercreek. They went encrypted when I was still in Fairborn.

I get them both via QAM in Beavercreek Township. Not using a PC card though, just my TV's tuner.

I don't know if this is effecting anyone else, but I am not receiving PSIP data from WHIO-DT and my new LCD uses the time from the stations(which sucks by the way) and WHIO-DT has the date as Jan. 14, 1997!


Yep, WHIO-DT's PSIP STT says it's 1/16/97 today, 06:41 UTC presently (actually 15:36UTC at present) ) ...

I'm not seeing any PSIP EIT/ETT info either. (EIT's are where the EPG info is).

It seems apparent at this point many stations continue to have issues regarding full implementation of PSIP data(as FCC requires BTW), so I guess I'm just happy if they get the video/audio "right" (HD when available, proper AR as well as "proper" MPEG2 encoding), and the PID's for the streams as well as PAT/PMT and PSIP VCT tables are set up so everyone can decode the A/V properly ...

Proper implementation of EIA-708 (so called "digital" CC) captioning would be nice as well, seems like at any given time only about 1/2 the stations in the area have it working correctly .... One receiver I have here supports ONLY EIA-708 captions, and won't pass through the line 21 "analog" captions via component video (it will do it via composite or Svideo at 480i out however) ...

Thanks Jeff for the posting. I agree with you that first priority should be getting the signal out, but most the stations around here have been broadcasting for a while, so I expect proper guides. On my older big screen, it didn't matter as much because the guide wasn't as evolved. But with the new set, it displays everything like on a cable box, so its nice when it works correctly. So does anyone have a contact at WHIO with whom I could write an email to?

Look at this page, http://www.whiotv.com/station/1931451/detail.html. See the e-mail format ?? Chuck Eastman is the Chief Engineer... :)

I have a question about unencrypted QAM in Fairborn (TWC). I had a pchdtv card set up awhile back, and got all the local network and PBS channels through QAM256, as well as Discover HD and TNT HD.

I just set things up again after an HD hiatus and now my card is no longer detecting Discover or TNT. Can anybody using QAM through Time Warner Fairborn confirm if these channels are unencrypted or not? Maybe my signal just isn't strong enough due to splitting, but all the other channels seem to come in fine.

I live in Fairborn and use the MDP 130 card in my PC. I get Disc HD on 114-1, and TNT HD on 114-2. TNT often has audio sync problems which makes it almost un-watchable

Have noticed since sometime yesterday, I can't decode WBDT-DT(including PSIP) on certian receivers here which are generally very dependant on PSIP ... On other receivers on which I can bypass PSIP, I can decode them just fine on 18.3 ....

Strangely enough, Looking at Tsreader's info on PAT/PMT and PSIP tables, I don't see anything that looks obviously "wrong" in their tables concerning the PID's, Elementary streams, VCT info/etc ...

I am also having problems with WBDT-DT. New panel will not find channel when I am flipping, but in the guide it is still there and I can watch it. On older RPCRT, decodes just fine at 26.01. Weird! Contact info anyone!?

Alex,

Hisense(USDTV) DB-2010 here is working ok with them on 26.1 -- I even tried rescanning on it, and it still worked fine decoding their A/V on 26.1 afterwards.

Zenith HDV420 won't decode them at all, no matter what I do.

Sony KD34XBR960's Internal ATSC receiver decodes their audio/video just fine on 18.3, and also did a rescan with it -- even after rescan 26.1 "WBDT-DT" shows up, but only if you tune to it manually(it won't add it to your channel surf list apparently without decodable audio/video streams), but there is no audio/video on 26.1 with it. Furthermore, I went into a undocumented service menu section on the sony which gives info on the PSIP and PAT/PMT tables -- usually, when there is some sort of problem, there is an indication of it there(or using TSreader something will seem amiss about the PSIP or PAT/PMT tables or the PID's), but not this time, other than it not recognizing or "seeing properly" the PSIP EIT table(where the EPG info is). Note that I'm not getting the EPG info from them properly on the Hisense box or with TSreader(PC software), either.

Looking through my old emails to the stations, I see In May 2005 it looks like much the same(possibly the same) issue has happened with them before in regards to the behavior here of The Zenith and Hisense receivers(didn't have the sony or the PC tuner card/software(which works fine but whose software doesn't really depend on PSIP).

Contact info :

It's been many years, but calling their main number through the week during normal business hours+asking for their Chief Engineer has worked for me in the past. A fellow named Al Schmidt was their Chief Engineer the last time we spoke(at least I think it was Al I talked to), but, that's been at least a couple of years ago, and the last email I still have from him was from 2003. So, don't know if he is still there. Been a while since I've called them as well, in 2005 Dayton Yellow pages for them(the lastest listing I have for Dayton on hand) currently shows their main number as (937)-384-9226 . Note, their studios are in Miamisburg.

In addition, Here's what they have for contact info on their website :

http://www.wb26tv.com/SectionPage.aspx?section=contact

They also have a message board, looks to be mostly programming related, but perhaps a post in the main "lounge" section may be appropriate :

http://www.wb26tv.com/ForumPage.aspx

-----------------------------

I've been quite busy here, especially during the day, so appreciate it if you manage to get in contact with them -- but If I get a chance early next week If they don't get it fixed by then I'll try to give them a call.

Jeff,

I will try to get some communications with them, either email or phone. I need to get in touch with several stations in order to adjust PSIP, date and time settings. Because of work, my best way of communication is email, but if it is not resolved, phone always works!

EDIT: Email sent to WBDT regarding the decoding issue. Email sent to the feedback email address. I will check when I get home to see if TV is decoding right or I will make a call to WBDT.

Well I went through all the channels I am receiving OTA and found which ones were having problems. Here's the list:

WDTN-DT - Doesn't decode on older Mitsubishi RPTV. Have had communication with engineer in the past, told me my tv was too old!! Seems that when WDTN is sending program data, the Mits cannot decode it, but when no data is available, Mits decodes it to 2.1 and 2.2. Works great with new LCD panel.

WHIO-DT - Incorrect time and date and no program data. Waiting on response.

WBDT-DT - Not decodable on new LCD panel, but OK on old Mits. Incorrect time and no program data. Waiting on response.

WRGT-DT - Incorrect time and no program data. Waiting on response.

Please confirm if you are having similar problems.

^ No problems with WDTN-DT here. 50-4(HD) maps to 2.1, and 50-3(SD) maps to 2-2, which seems a bit unusual(although I don't know of anything that's "wrong" about doing it like that) but it's been like that for years.

See my last post for info on my receivers which do and don't currently decode WBDT-DT.

Getting same thing regarding everything else in your post(incorrect time, no EPG info in EIT's/etc). Proper EIA-708 "digital" captions are missing from many stations in the area as well.

Just to update, FWIW, Since Sometime Monday WBDT-DT is decoding fine again on Zenith receiver, and PSIP is working at 26.1, including on the Sony ...

Just to update, FWIW, Since Sometime Monday WBDT-DT is decoding fine again on Zenith receiver, and PSIP is working at 26.1, including on the Sony ...

I can confirm that I am receving WBDT-DT again, with proper time, date and program data. Still waiting on an email reply from WHIO. Will let you know when I get something. Also, looking forward to WHIO rolling out their HD weather apps this summer. Also on the rumor mill, possible new doppler for WHIO from Baron Services (same company as WCPO's Ultimate Doppler).

Edit: WHIO does have a new radar! http://www.whiotv.com/weather/13580217/detail.html

I'm getting ready to install my new antennas near Celina OH 45822.
The VHF Winegard HD 5030 & the UHF Winegard HD 9032.
The preamp is a Channel Master 7777.
I'm using a 40 foot tower with a rotor & no nearby trees or obstructions.

If anyone has any experience with the above items, or criticism please let me know.

I'm also wondering what to expect from the broadcasters in the area including Fort Wayne, Lima, Dayton & possibly Columbus.
Will any of the stations be switching from VHF to UHF (I hope not)!
Will any of the stations be switching their channel numbers?

I know some of the stations remap their signal on other channels, though I have not been informed why they do this.

Any information would be appreciated!
Thanks

You say you don't have a rotor but I'm positive you'll need one if you're thinking of trying to get channels from the four cities you mention.

As far as switching from UHF to VHF and changing channel numbers, I believe those go hand in hand. If one switches from their current UHF frequency to VHF, their channel number WILL change. That said, I don't believe any of the Dayton stations are planning to do this. Can't speak for the other cities.

hall missed your rotor, but he's right about needing one! Getting Ft Wayne, Lima & Dayton shouldn't be a problem - Columbus, at 90 miles, probably won't come in reliably.

An old reference I have shows WLIO as staying on it's current channel 8, which is a change from it's old UHF channel of 35. They are the only one that might "change", since they are (were) supposed to stay on 8 after the cut-off rather than return to 35. And all others are scheduled to stay on the UHF channels they're now using.

Stations remap their current transmitting channels to their old channel numbers so that viewers don't become confused. At least, I've read that is the reason they give. For example, WDTN actually transmits on channel 51, but they remap to 2. When I tune the set to 2, I get their analog signal; when I tune to 2-1 I get their digital channel, but the set is actually receiving channel 51.

Welcome to the forum.

Carl

Thanks for the info, but I have heard from others that WHIO Dayton channel 7 will be switching to channel 41 which is UHF, and possibly not receivable this far north.

Can anyone confirm this ?

Thanks for the info, but I have heard from others that WHIO Dayton channel 7 will be switching to channel 41 which is UHF, and possibly not receivable this far north.

Can anyone confirm this ?


WHIO-DT digital channel (7-1 and 7-2 channels as displayed on your TV) is already on channel 41.

hall missed your rotor Ooops, I read the part where he mentioned a rotor but obviously read "no rotor" instead of "a rotor".

...but I have heard from others that WHIO Dayton channel 7 will be switching to channel 41 which is UHF, and possibly not receivable this far north. WHIO, as already noted, is currently 41. Here's the others:

WDTN - 50
WKEF - 51
WRGT - 30
WPTD - 58
WBDT - 18

WHIO-DT digital channel (7-1 and 7-2 channels as displayed on your TV) is already on channel 41.

Hmmm, I assumed that when my tuner was set on 7.1 I was picking up a VHF signal.
When I set it to channel 41 I get absolutely nothing.... I'm a little lost now.

Hmmm, I assumed that when my tuner was set on 7.1 I was picking up a VHF signal.
When I set it to channel 41 I get absolutely nothing.... I'm a little lost now.

Here are the 5 Indiana stations & 2 from Lima:
WANE - 31 - 15
WFFT - 36 - 55
WFWA - 40 - 39
WISE - 19 - 33
WPTA - 24 - 21
WLIO - 8 - 35
WTLW - 47 - 44


The middle column is the transmitting channel of the station for it's digital transmissions (aka ATSC) - the right hand one is the analog (aka NTSC) channel.

The idea behind re-mapping, as dictated by the FCC, is that the viewer would not have to learn new channel assignments. To watch WANE-TV, he would continue to tune his set to 15. Since 15 is the NTSC signal, the set would tune to 15 and display it as channel 15. If he tuned to 15.1 (the digital signal), the set would tune to channel 31 and display it as 15.1. This was supposed to be transparent to the viewer.

Guess they forgot that some folks know the difference between UHF and VHF -- and that sometimes different antennas are needed. It seems that most stations will stay with their "temporary" UHF channels after the cut-off. In your case, I believe all stations except WLIO will stay on their UHF channel.

Hope that helps.

Carl

Thanks, that helps a bunch!

If the only station requiring a VHF antenna is WLIO 8 Lima, I can point the VHF antenna towards Lima and the UHF towards Fort Wayne & hardly ever have to adjust the rotor. Unless WHIO 7 Dayton stays on VHF, then the rotor will have to be used a little more often.

never mind ...

Hey TWC guys, Navigator is here. I just worked on a theater system in Springboro where cascom brought out an SA 8300 HDC (C as in M-card encryption) and it had navigator on it. It sure wasn't passport so I assume it was navigator. I messed around with it for about 5 minutes and was able to find the discrete ON command. I don't know if only the new boxes have navigator for now or if the rollout is in progress.

Ok... here is a call out to the antenna experts here.

I bought a Channel Master 4228 antenna today and put it up on my mast (I used to have a tiny antenna that had issues with multipath). This absolutely works great for the Dayton stations, no drop outs at all while watching for a couple hours tonight. However, when I point towards the Cincy stations I am not even picking up any signal (according to my ViP622 from Dish). Any ideas as to what else I could try?

House info: I'm only 45-50 miles or so from the Cincy towers, so I figured I could at least get a handful of them... I live near the Stroop and Glenheath intersection in Kettering, near Indian Riffle park.

mlbUC,

Just a coincidence but I just purchased a CM 4228 as well for future use in an attic mount in my new house for Cincinnati stations. After getting it, I set it up outside on my balcony at my current residence in southwest Washington Twp. Pointed it towards the towers (southwest from my location with some other buildings closeby in the line of sight) and picked up all of the Cincinnati stations on the first try (including, to my surprise WCPO-9.1). WXIX came in a bit choppy as well as the MyNYTV affiliate. Also got WPTO out of Oxford. I'm hoping I'll be able to get all of the channels with my attic mount in the new house nearby, but I probably will need a preamp to do so.

There were some google earth maps posted here at the avsforum awhile back which shows signal propogation for any given address. Not sure where you are in Kettering, but some locations look better than others for the Cincinnati stations. In fact, in some spots in Kettering (on the southern edge close to 48 between David and Rahn -- the former washington twp areas annexed by kettering awhile back) the signal propogation maps predict a better signal than at my current location.

My guess is you are about 7-10 miles further away from the towers than me. Maybe you could use an amp. Were you registering any signal at all? I've got another amp I bought at lowes a couple of years ago (CM 3041 I believe) and I am going to try it first at my new place. If more power is needed I'll go with the CM 7777. All of this to watch the Bearcats in HD this year (here's hoping WXIX brings back the HD broadcasts) with a bonus for the Bengals on the NFL network broadcast carried locally in Cincinnati.

dc, I think you and I think alike. I want it in order to see the Bearcats this year, both for football and basketball (although I'll probably have the game plan and full court, picking up most of the games). I also like the option to see a different NFL game, many times WRGT and WXIX play different games on Sunday afternoons.

The AMP is what I figured I may need to use. I thought I'd check and see if anybody had any other suggestions. Thanks for the info.

Something tells me you're in a kinda "low" area....

dc, I think you and I think alike. I want it in order to see the Bearcats this year, both for football and basketball (although I'll probably have the game plan and full court, picking up most of the games). I also like the option to see a different NFL game, many times WRGT and WXIX play different games on Sunday afternoons.

The AMP is what I figured I may need to use. I thought I'd check and see if anybody had any other suggestions. Thanks for the info.


A few years ago I was on the University of Dayton's campus and was able to receive all of the Cincinnati digitals except WCPO-DT (9-1) with a RadioShack VU190XR (HUGE directional VHF/UHF combo) mounted in the attic pointed out the only window (conveniently southward-facing). I would have thought, though, that the 4228 would have better VHF performance than that VU190XR, especially with my VU190XR having been in the attic.

I use the 4228 for picking up Dayton stations and this antenna is very specific in how you aim it. The plot for both the vertical and horizontal is very tight, which is why it is so good at picking up stations. http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html. Make sure it is aimed correctly and then add the amp. Both of my antennas are mounted in the attic, one 15 ft. VHF/UHF antenna toward Cincy and the 4228 on a rotor toward Dayton. Both are feed to CM 7776, with the VHF/UHF to the VHF input and the 4228 to the UHF input. It combines the signal very nicely and then I send it to the basement, to a distribution amp. I pull in all the Cincy/Dayton stations, but every once in a while I have to move the 4228 because the two antennas are almost in opposite phase, but not quite, so I can lose WBDT (weak signal), move the antenna and lose WLWT/WCET or WXIX.

I live near the Stroop and Glenheath intersection in Kettering, near Indian Riffle park.

First, I looked at the intersection of Glenheath+stroop with topo software. At first look, while some terrain issue was evident (your at about 950 FT above sea level, about 10 miles out in your signal path to Cincinnati stations, elevation rises about 100FT higher than that) it didn't appear to me that the terrain issues were probably very severe in regards to Cincinnati. See attached graphic "mlbuctocincy.jpg" --- at left is your location, at right is the Cincy station farthest from you, WCVN-DT, Covington, KY. Bottom red mostly "horizontal" line shows WCVN-DT's transmitting antenna height, the much "higher" red line shows the approxmiate transmitting antenna heights of the other cincinnati stations(for which the elevation profile would be extremely similar to this, except they are a few miles closer to you, and with much higher transmitting antennas).

But, of course it's very difficult to draw any conclusions from looking at topo elevation profiles, and importantly, this plot does *NOT* take into account curavature of earth. Which is important, and you could guesstimate about a 300' or more "drop" where the line is at right regarding the LOS signal paths. Thankfully however, many of us receive VHF/UHF signals just fine via diffraction, "absolute" LOS is NOT necessary to receive high power TV signals ...

So, secondly, I wrote down the lat/long coordinates for intersection of Glenheath+stroop ( 39.68778 degrees N, 84.11757 West) and Plugged that into Andy S. lee's longely-rice signal prediction "plot", which takes terrain, among many other things into account. Which you can also do yourself here(BTW, there is also excellent info provided describing what all the info in the plot "means" if you run it yourself) :

www.tvfool.com

Attached as "Radar-Digitalmlbuc.png" are the results (for digital only), and for receive antenna height of 15ft above ground(at your location) .... As you can see, the Cincinnati or columbus stations are predicted to be quite weak at your location, and with antenna at 15ft, you're getting them via double edge diffraction.

Indeed, For attempting cincinnati or Columbus(the latter looks to be especially difficult from your location) reception, getting high gain antenna as high as possible+with preamp seems to be a good idea for your location. Also, with predicted signal levels below -100dbm for several of the cincy stations and all of Columbus, you're going to have to be very careful about antenna posistioning/aiming and losses between antenna+receiver. Such as from splitters, and for instance you don't want connections outdoors that aren't waterproofed, otherwise water will get in coax+the losses will start "mounting up", and will get worse at time goes on.

For VHF (WCPO-DT/WSYX-DT currently --- WCPO-DT, WSYX-DT and WKRC-DT after analog shut off) a UHF antenna such as CM4228, even though CM4228 does offer some gain on Hi-VHF might not quite do the trick. Using CM4228 for UHF and a dedictaed, seperate VHF only antenna(such as Winegard YA-1713 for ch 7-13 ONLY(so it's much smaller than broadband ch 2~13 VHF antennas) would be a good idea.

About that preamp however ---- while preamp would be an excellent idea for you for Cincinnati or Columbus (and I think you'd probably be OK+not overload things with at least the antenna aimed at Cincy, as it will "reject" the stronger signals from Dayton if it's not aimed towards Dayton towers) It's probably not such a good idea for Dayton, as preamp/front end of receiver could easily be overloaded by the strong Dayton Signals .... WWRD-LP 55, Dayton (they have a CP to move to 32), is also only about 2 miles to Your east. Also, *any* nearby source of strong RF (it doesn't have to be a "TV station" -- Strong nearby FM stations can be a particular issue, hence why most preamps have built in(and switchable) FM traps ) can easily overload the input of broadband preamps(which is what we have available).

In other words you're probably going to need some sort of a preamp/amp for best results from Cincinnati or Columbus -- but you may have some "overload" problems with it regarding the Dayton Stations .... You could try a "medium gain" preamp that is hopefully a little less prone to overload issues(Winegard HDP-269 is one that you'll see recommended here often), HOWEVER, I suspect it's possible a higher gain preamp (such as CM7778 or CM7777), which is more prone to overload issues, would improve your chances or reliability regarding Cincinnati or Columbus ....

Just thought it a good idea to "caution" you about these issues, so if when you add a preamp+your cincy stations improve, you'll know what's going on if you start having problems with the Dayton stations ..... This might be a situation where seperate antenna setups(and a/B switch before receiver to switch between them) for Dayton(w/o preamp)/Cincinnati(with preamp) may be required ... It's probably desireable in any case, as that way you wouldn't need rotor for best reception of both Cincy+dayton ...

Thanks for the info, Jeff. I'll be playing around with it a bit more tonight. My antenna is probably about 15' at the moment, but I may get a taller mast to put it up another 5-10'. I'm not sure how much of a difference that will make, however. I had a crappy little antenna up before and I did at 1 time receive WCPO-DT with it, so I was surprised when I didn't get any signal from them when playing around last night. I did notice, however, that I only had my antenna pointed in the 205 degree range (where antenna web says I need to be in the 213-215 range). I will go back and retry the setup tonight to see what happens. I'll post my results later.

mlbuc,

No guarentees, but getting antenna higher can do wonders, especially when terrain is an issue. I begin hitting a "sweet spot" here for the Cincinnati LP stations at about 33FT(or higher) above ground. Also keep in mind, with short wavelenthgs of UHF, there are "dead spots" and hot spots, so moving antenna a few feet can make quite a difference in some circumstances.

You can also punch in different receive antenna heights for your location for the signal prediction plot at www.tvfool.com to get a bit of an idea how much more height can help. The two columns at right also show you how high your antenna needs to be for -100dbm signal strength, and to achieve LOS.

Adding preamp+getting antenna at 30FT or higher could do wonders for you for Cincinnati, I would guess, but you may not necessarily need to do both of those things ....

Also keep in mind, Antennaweb is showing the headings after taking magnetic deviation into account. The Earth's magnetic field varies in different locations, hence the difference between the true bearing(if you caliabrate your rotor controller to the North star like I do, you'd want to use the true bearing) and the bearing you need when using a compass. (which necessitates a different "adjustment" depending on where you are in the U.S.).

Add about +5 degrees or so in our area to the true bearing to get the proper bearing to use with a compass.

Oh, also keep in mind, WPTO-DT location info on antennaweb is incorrect, it's for an old, expired, outdated(by about 6 years) and unused construction permit they once had for operating their digital station from WKOI's tower. While the analog WPTO does transmit from a short stick on MU campus in Oxford, WPTO-DT(digital) transmits from WXIX tower in Cincinnati. The info on their transmit location in the tvfool info, or FCC TV query info is correct. I've sent antennaweb folks info on that several times+it's never seemed to do any good. I guess they'll have to hear it from the ThinkTV folks in order for anything to get done about it. Seems odd however, since FCC has the correct info regarding their location and operating permit available on their website ......

Channel changes coming to TWC. http://www.timewarnercable.com/dayton/programming/legal_notices2.html

First some observations:

1. According to the TWC flier, ESPN2HD will be on Southwest Ohio systems on Aug. 7th on ch. 764. No mention of moving ESPN to the standard HD tier (along with Discovery HD and TN HD) as in every other TWC system (probably a oversight).

2. It looks like the WBDT is being dropped from the Dayton market, as ABC Family is moving to channel 13????

3. Somehow WHIO got its waste of space Weather channel on the limited tier ch. 23 (looks like it is permanent despite our protests) -- anyone watching to make sure it is meeting its children's programming obligations?

Full text:





Time Warner Cable’s agreements with programmers to carry their services routinely expire from time to time. We are usually able to obtain renewals or extensions of such agreements, and carriage of programming services is discontinued only in rare circumstances. The following agreements with programmers are due to expire soon, and we may be required to cease carriage of one or more of these services in the near future:


DIY on Demand; Fine Living on Demand, Food Network on Demand, GAC on Demand, HGTV, HGTV on Demand, Encore MoviePlex, Showtime West, Showtime Showcase West, Showtime Extreme West, Showtime Beyond West, TMC West, TMC Xtra West, Flix West, Starz West, Starz Cinema West, Encore West, Encore Love West, Encore Westerns West, Encore Mystery West, Encore Drama West, Encome Action West.



In addition, from time to time we make certain changes in the services that we offer in order to better serve our customers. The following changes are planned:


Adds: ESPNU to channel 114, ESPN2HD to channel 764, in some areas also WRCX to channel 22, WHIO Weather Now to channel 23. Changes: Fox WGN moves to channel 17, TBS moves to channel 32, A & E moves to channel 34, ABC Family moves to channel 13, Shop NBC moves to channel 25, Spike TV moves to channel 59, Leased Access moves to channel 11, EWTN moves to channel 24, USA moves to channel 33, MTV moves to channel 60, Discovery Channel moves to channel 50, Weather Channel moves to channel 56, Lifetime moves to channel 35,CNN moves to channel 70,ESPN moves to channel 26, ESPN 2 moves to channel 27, ESPN Classic moves to Digital channel 113, Comedy Central moves to channel 38, E!TV moves to channel 39, Court TV moves to channel 66, TLC moves to channel 49, History Channel moves to channel 52, Cartoon moves to channel 45, Fox Sports Net Ohio moves to channel 29, Headline News moves to channel 71, HGTV moves to channel 53, Sci-Fi moves to channel 36, TCM moves to channel 64, AMC moves to channel 37, Travel Channel moves to channel 55, BET moves to channel 65, VH1 moves to channel 62, MSNBC moves to channel 69, CNBC moves to channel 72, National Geographic moves to channel 67, Golf Channel moves to channel 30, CMT moves to channel 58, Food Network moves to channel 54, TV Land moves to channel 41, Animal Planet moves to channel 51, Nickelodeon moves to channel 42, Disney moves to channel 43, Hallmark Channel moves to digital channel 172, TNT moves to channel 31, Fuse moves to channel 78, Shop NBC moves to channel 25, Style moves to channel 44, Oxygen moves to channel 76, WE moves to channel 48, FX moves to channel 40, C-SPAN 2 moves to basic channel 95,Versus moves to channel 57, FOX News moves to channel 68, Fit TV moves to channel 170, Fox Soccer moves to channel 171. Specific to certain lineups: WCMH moves to channel 12 in Springfield and to channel 19 in Yellow Springs and surrounding areas, WKOI moves to channel 14, WBNS moves to channel 21, WOSU moves to channel 20, Government access moves to channel 5, Clark County Educational Access moves to channel 18, C-Span moves to channel 10, WSYX moves to channel 6, TV Guide moves to channel 18, QVC moves to channel 9 in most areas and to channel 18 in Warren County, MVCC Government Access 1 & 2 moves to channels 5 & 6, MVCC Educational Access moves to channel 21, Huber Heights Government Access moves to channels 5 & 6, Englewood Educational Access moves to channel 21, Fairborn Educational Access moves to channel 6, Fairborn Government Access moves to channel 5. In Charleston WBNS moves to channel 21, WSYX moves to channel 6, WCMH moves to channel 12 and Clark County Educational access moves to channel 18. In Bellbrook MVCC Educational access moves to channel 6, Bellbrook Government Access moves to channel 5. In Troy, Piqua & Tipp City, Covington some or all of the following moves: WLIO moves to channel 19, WOSU moves to channel 20, C-Span moves to channel 10, Local time & temperature moves to channel 5, WBNS to channel 21. In Urbana & Springfield: WKOI to channel 14, WCMH moves to channel 19, WBNS to channel 21, WOSU to channel 20, WSYX to channel 6. In Greenville: WIPB moves to channel 20, weather radar to channel 23, WKOI moves to channel 14, WBDT moves to channel 15, ITV moves to channel 6, EWTN moves to channel 12. In Union City, K.I.S.S./Time and Weather moves to channel 5, WTTK moves to channel 19, local radar replaced by WHIO Weather Now, WISH moves to channel 20, WIPB moves to channel 21, WNDY moves to channel 12, WKEF moves to channel 3. In Germantown, WECT moves to channel 20, WKOI moves to channel 14, WBDT moves to channel 15, Miami Valley Access channels move to channel 5, 6 and 21 and in Oxford, Talawanda Schools moves to channel 24 and Oxford City access moves to channel 19.

mlbUC,

Just a coincidence but I just purchased a CM 4228 as well for future use in an attic mount in my new house for Cincinnati stations. After getting it, I set it up outside on my balcony at my current residence in southwest Washington Twp. Pointed it towards the towers (southwest from my location with some other buildings closeby in the line of sight) and picked up all of the Cincinnati stations on the first try (including, to my surprise WCPO-9.1). WXIX came in a bit choppy as well as the MyNYTV affiliate. Also got WPTO out of Oxford. I'm hoping I'll be able to get all of the channels with my attic mount in the new house nearby, but I probably will need a preamp to do so.

There were some google earth maps posted here at the avsforum awhile back which shows signal propogation for any given address. Not sure where you are in Kettering, but some locations look better than others for the Cincinnati stations. In fact, in some spots in Kettering (on the southern edge close to 48 between David and Rahn -- the former washington twp areas annexed by kettering awhile back) the signal propogation maps predict a better signal than at my current location.

My guess is you are about 7-10 miles further away from the towers than me. Maybe you could use an amp. Were you registering any signal at all? I've got another amp I bought at lowes a couple of years ago (CM 3041 I believe) and I am going to try it first at my new place. If more power is needed I'll go with the CM 7777. All of this to watch the Bearcats in HD this year (here's hoping WXIX brings back the HD broadcasts) with a bonus for the Bengals on the NFL network broadcast carried locally in Cincinnati.


If you pick-up WPTO DT. The transmitter is on WXIX tower. (side mount antenna)

If you pick-up WPTO DT. The transmitter is on WXIX tower. (side mount antenna)

I've contacted antennaweb several times about this to no avail (note that many many moons ago, I did manage to get them to make other corrections regarding other stations).... But, Perhaps someone at ThinkTV could contact antennaweb folks+ help to "assist them" to correct their information on WPTO-DT facilities, including the transmit location, which is obviously currently shown at antennaweb as being on WKOI's tower ...

here's what antennaweb shows for WXIX-DT/WPTO-DT for my location for instance ....

WXIX-DT 19.1 FOX NEWPORT KY 198° 32.7(miles) 29 (RF channel)
WPTO-DT 14.2 PBS OXFORD OH 252° 12.8(miles) 28 (RF channel)

Also, there's :
WKOI 43(analog*) TBN RICHMOND IN 252° 12.8(miles) 43 (RF channel)

and :

WPTO 14 PBS OXFORD OH 258° 18.0(miles) 14(RF channel) - this one, for WPTO analog is correct ....


Update: * - dunno why WKOI-DT no longer shows up on antennaweb plot for my location, I of course receive it like gangbusters ... Another one that's missing from antennaweb plot which I receive just fine is WCVN-DT ....

Well, I can officially pick up the Cincy locals with a preamp. Bucknut came over last night with his CM7777 preamp and we hooked it up. All Cincy channels came in, WXIX-DT was the only channel I saw any dropouts on, and I think with some slight moving around after I install a rotor I can fine tune it well enough to get rid of most of the drop outs. WLWT-DT and WSTR-DT came in strongest, WCPO-DT and WKRC-DT both came in good enough to not notice any drop outs. WPTO-DT came in pretty good as well.

Thanks for everyone's help, I appreciate it.

What is WKEF broadcasting on their -2 sub-channel ?? Ever since Dish re-enabled guide data for our local sub-channels, Dish (who in turn gets the data from someone else) shows "The Tube Music Network" for 22-2, in multi-hour time slots, 24 hours a day. WKEF's website (TitanTV) lists NO schedule for 22-2, nor any mention of their sub-channel. TV Guide online doesn't list 22-2 either. I see where Dish may be getting their information from though... Zap2It.com, http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCGrid.do;jsessionid=9A5BF3867D6E636CC5CD4790C6E934BC?method =decideFwdForLineup&lineupId=PC:45410&zipcode=45410&setMyPreference=false.

What is WKEF broadcasting on their -2 sub-channel ?? Ever since Dish re-enabled guide data for our local sub-channels, Dish (who in turn gets the data from someone else) shows "The Tube Music Network" for 22-2, in multi-hour time slots, 24 hours a day. WKEF's website (TitanTV) lists NO schedule for 22-2, nor any mention of their sub-channel. TV Guide online doesn't list 22-2 either. I see where Dish may be getting their information from though... Zap2It.com, http://tvlistings.zap2it.com/tvlistings/ZCGrid.do;jsessionid=9A5BF3867D6E636CC5CD4790C6E934BC?method =decideFwdForLineup&lineupId=PC:45410&zipcode=45410&setMyPreference=false.


Unless something changed recently, there is no 22-2 subchannel anymore. WKEF stopped broadcasting the tube at the beginning of the year and had a message on 22-2 stating such. After that message had been up for a while they turned off the 22-2 stream completely.

My receiver definitely picks up 22-2 (I even re-scanned over the weekend). What I haven't done is compare what's actually on 22-1 vs 22-2 to see if it's nothing more than simulcasting.

^ I expect Your receiver is likely getting the info from E*'s EPG info, not from WKEF-DT's Transport stream. If you're seeing video program on there, I have no idea where that's coming from, but it's not coming from WKEF-DT, at least not currently.

Looking at their transport stream with TSreader(a software based TS stream monitor/analyzer/etc) they are not sending any info whatsoever for 22.2. No video/audio streams, no PSIP info(such as a TVCT entry for 22.2), and no PID's for anything else other than for 22.1.

However, approx 20% (about 4mb/s) of their bandwidth(which used to be used for 22.2/The tube prior to jan 1 2007) appears to be null packets(but I suppose it is possible that could be being used for "testing" or experimental purposes such as for say, datacasting) is using PID at hex address 0x1fff. It's been like this anytime I've checked it the past 5~6 months or so.

My receiver definitely picks up 22-2 (I even re-scanned over the weekend). What I haven't done is compare what's actually on 22-1 vs 22-2 to see if it's nothing more than simulcasting.

Edit: Nevermind, Jeff verified what I thought.

For those not familiar with Dish's receivers that integrate OTA, here goes:

They offer local channels, as I'm sure most know. They appear as 7xxx or 8xxx channel and on newer receivers, can be "mapped down" to their familiar channel number. I know WHIO's details better, so I'll use them as an example. WHIO shows up as 7-00 (satellite-provided), 7-01 (WHIO-DT) and 7-02 (7 Weather Now). The OTA channels only appear after you do a "scan" to add them

WKEF, and I'm 99% sure about this, shows up as 22-0 (satellite-provided), 22-1 (WKEF-DT) and 22-2 (can't recall what call letters it shows). The EPG shows 2 to 4 hour time slots and all list "The Tube Music Network" (just like Zap2It does). I knew they no longer offered The Tube, so out of curiosity I tuned to the channel to see what was playing. I distinctly remember a Seinfeld episode.... Was that same program showing on 22-1 ?? I don't know.

Unless someone can check, I'll do so after 5pm this evening. Anyone want screenshots too ?? :)

For those not familiar with Dish's receivers that integrate OTA, here goes:

They offer local channels, as I'm sure most know. They appear as 7xxx or 8xxx channel and on newer receivers, can be "mapped down" to their familiar channel number. I know WHIO's details better, so I'll use them as an example. WHIO shows up as 7-00 (satellite-provided), 7-01 (WHIO-DT) and 7-02 (7 Weather Now). The OTA channels only appear after you do a "scan" to add them

WKEF, and I'm 99% sure about this, shows up as 22-0 (satellite-provided), 22-1 (WKEF-DT) and 22-2 (can't recall what call letters it shows). The EPG shows 2 to 4 hour time slots and all list "The Tube Music Network" (just like Zap2It does). I knew they no longer offered The Tube, so out of curiosity I tuned to the channel to see what was playing. I distinctly remember a Seinfeld episode.... Was that same program showing on 22-1 ?? I don't know.

Unless someone can check, I'll do so after 5pm this evening. Anyone want screenshots too ?? :)


I wish those program guides were more accurate. It's bothered me for quite some time that 22-2 shows up on program guides as "The Tube" even though it doesn't exist anymore, and 19-2 does not show up, even thought it IS "The Tube."

I'd check 22-2 for you, but my antenna is pointed at Cincinnati right now and while I can check TV remotely, I can't access the antenna rotor without being physically present.

I'll be damned ! I try it today and I get a blank, black screen.... I'm really not making it up when I said it listed The Tube and when I turned it on that Seinfeld was playing. Time to remove it from my list now.

Interesting that they're pulling so much from 22-1 for no apparent reason.

15Mb/s for the 720p HD video on 22.1(which is what its getting, audio of course is just under 400Kb/s for DD 5.1 stream) seems to me to work quite well with their encoder, and is quite common max datarate used from stations(or networks such as Fox with their splicer) sending 720p .... I'm not sure we'd notice much, if any difference if they allowed more bandwidth to be used by 22.1 ... Basically, in short the encoder they're using may not NEED any more than that ....

As for "why", I dunno ... but to speculate a bit, could be so they can more "easily" add future services w/o effecting what they're doing with 22.1 ... There are many things a station could do with that bandwidth, not only a SD multcast services like we are used to (7 weather now, My TV on WRGT-DT,) and they're getting more options for it all the time, including for Moblie TV services via new "modes" which are backwards compatible(but can't be received/used on our current receivers), use our current system using E-VSB, or the M/PH (or whatever they're called) systems ...

It's the stations sending 1080i+multicasting in the area which appear to me to have issues with too high compression ratio during bandwidth demanding content .... I see WBNS-DT occasionally, but if I could see them *all* the time, I'd certianly be watching them rather than WHIO-DT or WKRC-DT for CBS HD ....

Any TWC subscribers happen to check if ESPN2HD showed up today on 764 as it was supposed to? I forgot to check before I left this morning. Also is ESPNHD and ESPN2HD now coming through over unencrypted QAM?

Any TWC subscribers happen to check if ESPN2HD showed up today on 764 as it was supposed to? I forgot to check before I left this morning. Also is ESPNHD and ESPN2HD now coming through over unencrypted QAM?
I second that question - I, too, forgot to look! What channel is ESPNHD and ESPN2HD supposed to be on with a QAM tuner? I think TNT and Discovery are unencrypted, but not too sure what their assigned number is... Thanks in advance!

I second that question - I, too, forgot to look! What channel is ESPNHD and ESPN2HD supposed to be on with a QAM tuner? I think TNT and Discovery are unencrypted, but not too sure what their assigned number is... Thanks in advance!

I don't know what QAM station they would be on, I'll try scanning tonight if ESPN2HD shows up on my box (I called my wife, and it wasn't there yet)... Anyways TNTHD and DiscHD are unencrypted and come through on 114-1 and 114-2...

Any TWC subscribers happen to check if ESPN2HD showed up today on 764 as it was supposed to? I forgot to check before I left this morning. Also is ESPNHD and ESPN2HD now coming through over unencrypted QAM?

It's not here in Cincy. This is what I got when I e-mailed Customer Support.


Thank you for writing Time Warner Cable Customer Service,

Time Warner Cable is pleased to announce channel locations for two new, highly anticipated networks. As of September 2007, ESPNU will be joining the channel lineup in the Digital Basic Tier on channel 114 in Dayton, 125 in the former Adelphia area, and channel 110 in Cincinnati. ESPN2HD will be on the Standard HD Tier; channel 764 in Dayton, and channel 976, in the Cincinnati, and former Adelphia areas. You may also notice some shifting of other channel locations as we make room for these networks, and other networks, to be announced later.

Not here in Sidney area either.

What happened? No ESPN2HD here either. TWC is now at an all-time low. I can't believe it would announce a date and then not deliver. Unbelieveable.

Here is a copy of the ad courtesy of bobsahh from the cincy thread.

I'm frustrated by TWC's lack of HD channels too, but I'll atleast give them 'til midnight before I complain. ;)

If anyone finds out any good answers when they call, please post here! Thanks for posting that ad, dc10forlife... I will call as well tomorrow. I HATE TWC!!!

In 4 years (or more ?), they've added what, UniversalHD ??

In 4 years (or more ?), they've added what, UniversalHD ??

Exactly. And only AFTER they took away INHD2.

Well, you can't blame TW for that. INHD2 went off the air.

You're right. But their track record is still poor.

Edit: Still nothing this morning.

my son called TW Dayton this afternoon. they told him Aug. 29th is the date. also, what is the problem getting NBC HD in the dayton market. it's only been about 4 years now that they have been unable to get an agreement. does anyone know what is going on?

There's little reason to believe that they're trying or talking at this point.

Cincy thread says that ESPN Classic is going to go digital only, on the same tier as ESPNU. That will piss of some people.

Since they more or less stopped playing classic games, it may not be that big of a deal.

You know how people are though. The fact that they moved it at all, i.e. "took it away", is all it takes.

I received the official notice in the mail today regarding the addition of ESPN2HD and other changes. As rrleaon1 said, it will take effect August 29.

A side question: Channels 1900-1914. What are they? And why are some of those blocked and others not? For example 1909 is HGTV and 1912 is The Weather Channel but both say they are subscription only. Yet some of the channels 1900-1914 are unblocked like FitTV and DIY. What's the deal?

As you may know, In Dayton, While WDTN-DT, WHIO-DT, WRGT-DT and WKEF-DT will be staying where they are after analog shut off -- WPTD-DT and WBDT-DT will be moving their digital stations to their current analog channels(16+26). Of course, since WPTD-DT is out-of core, on channel 58, currently, they HAVE to move in core(channel 2-51) after analog shut off, as ch 52-69 is being reallocated for other uses besides TV.

As you may also know, FCC recently finalized(for the most part) the post-Transistion DTV table of allotments based on the channel election procedure, as well as began their 3rd DTV review proceeding - which is probably the final "major" DTV proceeding related to DTV transistion and analog shut off on Feb 17, 2009. As part of that proceeding, ThinkTV has submitted comments to FCC regarding issues such as the need for them to quickly "receive" a CP for WPTD-DT post transistion on 16, as well as canadian approval(yes, Dayton is in the "Border Zone" and such changes require canadian approval).

I think many folks here may find these comments from ThinkTV quite interesting, as well as hopefully demonstrate just what a major project something like this, and perhaps help some to better appreicate the efforts folks such as the ThinkTV folks have went through to bring us DTV+HD (such as building out a full power DTV station on channel 58 that could ONLY be used during the transistion) ... So here is link to those comments (PDF, requires acrobat reader) :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519611248

A side question: Channels 1900-1914. What are they? And why are some of those blocked and others not? For example 1908 is HGTV and 1912 is The Weather Channel but both say they are subscription only. Yet some of the channels 1900-1914 are unblocked like FitTV and DIY. What's the deal? I believe they are re-mapped channel locations for TWC's "Family" tier. I'm guessing that some of the family tier channels are in the analog range while others are in the digital range so in order to restrict you to those channels if you get that package, they put them on digital channels and require a set-top. TWC can't selectively block individual channels via traps, they can only block ranges of channels (on the analog side). Make sense ??

What I found odd was that you can't tune those channels in that are in the tier you pay for, i.e. The Weather Channel or HGTV (they're in the analog range).

Here's their listing of Family Tier channels, http://www.timewarnercable.com/dayton/programming/family_choice.html. The (4) you list as examples are in there.

Jeff, it looks like WPTD-DT will go through a huge change in the next year and a half. Changing the digital transmitter to Ch. 16, removing the Ch. 58 side-mount antenna, adding Ch. 16 side-mount antenna, removing old Ch. 16 top-mounted antenna and adding new Ch. 16 top-mounted antenna. I am guessing the Ch. 58 antenna will then become unusable as the antenna size varies with the broadcast frequency. Hopefully they could sell it as it is only a couple of years old. My main question would be, why replace the top-mounted antenna? My only thought would be age and maybe the new antennas are more efficient. I would guess that after the new top-mount antenna is added, they would leave the side-mount as a backup.

Now as other Cincinnati/Dayton stations switch back to there old frequencies (I know it is only a couple), should we expect something similar, or would the change be easier because they were not assigned such high frequencies in the first place? Same with the antennas, you would think the old analog antennas would work.

What I found odd was that you can't tune those channels in that are in the tier you pay for, i.e. The Weather Channel or HGTV (they're in the analog range).

Yeah, I thought that was strange too. Today I went into the local TWC office and asked them about the channels. They had no idea they were there. They checked them out on their TV in the store and they also had some of the channels blocked (HGTV, Weather, etc.) and some of the channels came through fine-- the same ones that I get unblocked. They had no explanation.

I also called TWC's 800 number and asked a rep. He couldn't tell me why some of them were blocked and some weren't. He didn't even know they were there.

I'd love to be able to get the HGTV and Weather Channel in that '1900' range because they come in much clearer and sharper than the analog channels do on my 65".

I'd love to be able to get the HGTV and Weather Channel in that '1900' range because they come in much clearer and sharper than the analog channels do on my 65". Disconnect your cable from the set-top. Add a 2-way splitter. Run one leg back to the set-top and the other to your TV's RF input. When you want to watch channels 2-78, try it on the RF input. You might be *amazed* at the difference in quality. We had a digital cable glitch one summer (anything through the set-top was dead, neighbor lost RR and phone service, etc) but analog worked just fine. We were bored and I was curious, so I unhooked the set-top and fed the TV directly. It worked and the picture was much, much better.

Removed my comments in this post, as DTVinsider posted a much better (and shorter) response/answer to JY dogg's questions below ...

[Q[COLOR=Blue]UOTE=JunkyardDogg]Jeff, it looks like WPTD-DT will go through a huge change in the next year and a half. Changing the digital transmitter to Ch. 16, removing the Ch. 58 side-mount antenna, adding Ch. 16 side-mount antenna, removing old Ch. 16 top-mounted antenna and adding new Ch. 16 top-mounted antenna. I am guessing the Ch. 58 antenna will then become unusable as the antenna size varies with the broadcast frequency. Hopefully they could sell it as it is only a couple of years old. My main question would be, why replace the top-mounted antenna? My only thought would be age and maybe the new antennas are more efficient. I would guess that after the new top-mount antenna is added, they would leave the side-mount as a backup.


WPTD will change the digital transmitter to channel 16 (new ipa's, change hardware in output tube and re-tune ,and all new combines and mask filters and magic t switch system. The 58 antenna will become a coat rack in the transmitter room. The top antenna is 30 years old. The antenna is close to the end of life span with the weather we have in the Dayton area.

For the longest time I was getting Discovery-HD and TNT-HD on 114-1 and 114-2 respectively. Sometime last week (Tuesday or Wednesday, 14 or 15 Aug), they seemed to disappear. I managed to track down TNT-HD and it was showing up on channel 0. But no sign of Discovery-HD.

Figured nothing to lose in terms of doing a re-scan of the channels (the set is a Toshiba MX195 with QAM tuner). The set indicated that Discovery-HD was on 117-12 (or thereabouts, I didn't write it down), but when I tried tuning to the channel, I got a "encrypted channel" message. To top it off, channel 0 was now getting the TWC "movies on demand" advertisement channel: TNT-HD was gone.

I have tried unplugging the set and plugging it back in; poking around the digital channels and trying 114-1 and 114-2 again. Interestingly, when I try to tune to 114-1 or 114-2 now they both re-tune to channel 0.

Anyone in the Beavercreek area still getting Discovery-HD and TNT-HD? As of Friday, a buddy of mine at work was getting them around channel 0 on his set (I think a Sharp with a QAM).

Based on several of the posts, it seems that TWC is doing a fair amount of remapping. Hopefully it will straighten itself out over the couple of days. I just hope they did not decide to re-encrypt Discovery-HD!

Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Don

TWC has sent those channels encrypted and unencrypted for a number of years now. I suspect the plan is for them to be encrypted and when they're not, someone forgot to flip the switch on them.

Anyone from Lima (TW Lima service?) lurking who's using their TV's QAM tuner for service ?

As you may know, In Dayton, While WDTN-DT, WHIO-DT, WRGT-DT and WKEF-DT will be staying where they are after analog shut off -- WPTD-DT and WBDT-DT will be moving their digital stations to their current analog channels(16+26). Of course, since WPTD-DT is out-of core, on channel 58, currently, they HAVE to move in core(channel 2-51) after analog shut off, as ch 52-69 is being reallocated for other uses besides TV.

As you may also know, FCC recently finalized(for the most part) the post-Transistion DTV table of allotments based on the channel election procedure, as well as began their 3rd DTV review proceeding - which is probably the final "major" DTV proceeding related to DTV transistion and analog shut off on Feb 17, 2009. As part of that proceeding, ThinkTV has submitted comments to FCC regarding issues such as the need for them to quickly "receive" a CP for WPTD-DT post transistion on 16, as well as canadian approval(yes, Dayton is in the "Border Zone" and such changes require canadian approval).

I think many folks here may find these comments from ThinkTV quite interesting, as well as hopefully demonstrate just what a major project something like this, and perhaps help some to better appreicate the efforts folks such as the ThinkTV folks have went through to bring us DTV+HD (such as building out a full power DTV station on channel 58 that could ONLY be used during the transistion) ... So here is link to those comments (PDF, requires acrobat reader) :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6519611248

I wonder if WPTO will change their transmission tower from the one in downtown Cincinnati or leave it there? Personally, the way it is works great for me but since its supposed to be an Oxford station, I would think they would move it to say the tower that TBN uses in the Trenton area.

Steve

Steve,

Yeah, same here regarding needing different antenna aiming for WKOI or WPTO analog(not digital) ....

From what I can tell from the post-transistion table of allotments, they're staying where they are on WXIX's tower -- JUST as they are now, no changes it appears --- They'll just have to shut the analog off .... Also, This quote from the document I provided link to above (comments to FCC from ThinkTV regarding 3rd DTV review mostly involving WPTD-DT's issues with moving from 58 to 16 for after analog shut off ), Think TV says :


WPTO-DT is already licensed and operating at full and final DTV Table facilities that match the FCC’s Final DTV Table of Allotments. Thus, Think TV has no concerns about the DTV transition for that station.



By the way ... Originally, for DTV transistion(and potentially afterwards as well) WPTO-DT WAS going to locate on WKOI's tower(between Trenton+oxford) .... and THAT is the location Antennaweb still shows it at(the last time I looked), But they changed that to WXIX's tower In cincy a year or two(or a little more I don't recall exactly) before they came on the air ....

Did anyone check this morning to see if ESPN2HD was showing up on TWC? I meant to, but forgot... Also if you have time check to see if you ESPNHD and ESPN2HD come through unencrypted over QAM

Did anyone check this morning to see if ESPN2HD was showing up on TWC? I meant to, but forgot... Also if you have time check to see if you ESPNHD and ESPN2HD come through unencrypted over QAM

The paperwork I got in the mail from TWC more or less said it wouldn't be unencrypted. It said it was part of the higher level HD service.

Did anyone check this morning to see if ESPN2HD was showing up on TWC? I meant to, but forgot... Also if you have time check to see if you ESPNHD and ESPN2HD come through unencrypted over QAM
When I checked before work there was just a logo on ESPN2HD and ESPNU that said you had to call to subsribe. I am hoping they were just still working on it because the other channels were moved but these new channels you could not watch.

When I checked before work there was just a logo on ESPN2HD and ESPNU that said you had to call to subsribe. I am hoping they were just still working on it because the other channels were moved but these new channels you could not watch.

Hopefully they get it sorted out before this evening... Today could be hell to be on hold with them for customer support...

Called TW and they said that they are in the process of "re-tooling" these channels and that they will not be subscription when they are done. I was told that it would take a couple of hours. I was also told a couple of hours when I called at 7:30 am.

Called TW and they said that they are in the process of "re-tooling" these channels and that they will not be subscription when they are done. I was told that it would take a couple of hours. I was also told a couple of hours when I called at 7:30 am.

ESPN2HD is coming through for me w/o a problem... I have yet to check QAM though...

Not getting ESPN2HD here with a cablecard .... just a repeating commerical for time warner cable digital cable on ch. 764. Anyone getting ESPN2HD with a cablecard? (not getting it with cablecard would be consistent with the notice we received a couple of days ago).

Did anyone check this morning to see if ESPN2HD was showing up on TWC? I meant to, but forgot... Also if you have time check to see if you ESPNHD and ESPN2HD come through unencrypted over QAM

Rescanned with the Fusion card and got nothing. Just the locals.

Rescanned with the Fusion card and got nothing. Just the locals.

I'm still getting TNT-HD and DISC-HD, just neither of the ESPN's with QAM

Took a look on my box in diagnostic mode. Both TNT-HD and Discovery HD are both "in the clear." ESPNHD and ESPN2HD are both marked subscription and are not "in the clear." ESPNHD and ESPN2HD are not on the same frequency (ESPNHD is on 687). The interesting thing is that there is room on 687 for ESPN2HD but for whatever reason TWC chose to put it on another channel.

If you're bored in diag mode, see if they've got a spot reserved for the Big 10 Network channel.

Do you know how to get into diag mode on the SA 3250HD? I just swapped out my old Pioneer for this and am not sure how to get into diag mode.

Do you know how to get into diag mode on the SA 3250HD? I just swapped out my old Pioneer for this and am not sure how to get into diag mode.


Press and hold select and exit at the same time. Keep both held for three or four seconds. You will here a bell, then release both buttons, then press exit.

I guess WHIO has already given up on the browns, or has elected to simulcast games this year. No browns on WHIO-DT.

Browns are up on WHIO-DT. Not in HD, however. I guess someone has made a mistake somewhere (CBS lists the game as in HD).

It would seem that Dish Network is taking the DT signal, downconverting to SD, then uplinking to the satellite. I was seeing both on satellite (SD) and OTA (digital/HD channel) the Jets vs Patriots while browerjs was seeing over TWC in SD the Browns game. As soon as the digital channel switched over to the Browns the satellite version switched as well.

Which leads me to this question... is this legal? Also makes me wonder if Dayton will be getting its locals uplinked sooner rather than later if they are already taking the ATSC signal.

WHIO-DT finally threw the HD switch for the Steelers/Browns sometime in the first quarter.

I was confused as well when I saw the Pats on WHIO-DT and the Steelers on WHIO.

any word on when local HD Dayton channels will be available for Direct TV

Anyone here happen to have Dish Network and use OTA through your satellite receiver for your HD locals? I have the 622 HD DVR and an external antenna for the OTA locals. Reception is fine, however, WRGT-DT does not show any guide data -- only "Digital Service". All of the other channels appear to mimic the guide data from their satellite local counterparts. Just curious if it is something on my end, or on Dish Network's.

Thanks!

Anyone here happen to have Dish Network and use OTA through your satellite receiver for your HD locals? I have the 622 HD DVR and an external antenna for the OTA locals. Reception is fine, however, WRGT-DT does not show any guide data -- only "Digital Service". All of the other channels appear to mimic the guide data from their satellite local counterparts. Just curious if it is something on my end, or on Dish Network's.

Thanks!

I have the exact same problem, but I have the VIP 722.

At least I'm not alone :) I have an email in to Dish Network about this. I'll let you know if they have anything useful to say :)

My response from Dish Network:

Thank you for your email. The guide information should be displayed for any local channel you are receiving off the antenna that is also carried by DISH Network in your local package, as long as you subscribe to the local package. In the future we hope to enhance this service so that all channels will have the information whether we carry the channel or not and regardless of whether you subscribe to local channels through DISH. Since we carry WRGT and you subscribe to locals, this guide information should be available. Unfortunately we do not have any further troubleshooting available for this issue at this time (aside from what you have already done). Hopefully the enhanced functionality will be released soon and will correct this issue.

So they are basically telling me "too bad". Not acceptable in my book. Without guide data, it's going to be near impossible to schedule "new episodes only" recordings of shows on Fox without doing it by hand. Time to go to the next level...

can anyone in dayton area verify that that the qam tuner rf's 114.2 is now being scrambled or has the rf has been changed? that was either hd tbs or usa .. cant remeber. tv is saying no tv picture now :(
also can anyone post any updated hd rf channels would be nice to get the hd espn but i know that is probably far fetched :P

heywire, you should be glad that they even acknowledge that they provide the guide data for the OTA channels, especially the sub-channels. In the very recent past, they'd play completely dumb when asked about it.

What's really odd is that some 622/722 owners get the data for WRGT-DT and MyTV. I believe mlbUC is one who does. If ALL of us lost the data, that probably would just mean that Dish made a "typo" in their channel-matching/mapping settings.

I'm going to resort to deleting all the OTA locals, doing a hard reboot (pull the power cord), then re-scan the OTA locals and see what happens.

can anyone verify that 114.2 (tnt) is now gone or scrambled or what, or has it moved? i am in clark county ohio

Yes, I am still getting the local guide data for WRGT-DT. I wonder if they have some sort of issue with service zip codes. I'm in 45440.

I honestly don't think it ties into zip codes. People who live in markets where they can pick up other markets OTA report that they get guide data for the "other" city. For example, if one of us had an antenna and picked up Cincy locals, it would populate the guide data for those add'l OTA stations even though you don't pay for Cincy locals. Paying for locals just turns on the "option" that allows displaying the data. Once that's done, they don't care *what* locals you pick up. People who "move" see this too. There's a guy in Columbus who gets the locals via antenna but he "lives" in Pittsburgh. He gets Pittsburgh analog locals, with guide data, plus Columbus digitals, with guide data.

any word on when local HD Dayton channels will be available for Direct TV
I've done some research on this in the past week. So far, we're not even on the announced schedule for HD locals.

This page (http://www.dbstalk.com/hr20/html/DTV_LIL_CITY.html) appears to be updated regularly with information about HD locals in specific markets, so you may want to monitor it. I also set up google news and blogs alerts on the terms directv dayton "high definition" OR HD so that I'd be notified as soon as news hits the web.

Interestingly, one of the sites I read said that DirecTV doesn't have a carriage contract for WDTN-DT (same as Time Warner), so if they launched today, you wouldn't get NBC in HD through the dish. I wonder if DirecTV would hold up a rollout for Dayton over that--maybe they go all or nothing? The booming metropolis of Mankato, MN just went live "on the bird," so we can't be too far behind.

Phil

Dang, anyone know what WDTN-DT's problem is with letting other carriers carry their signal?

Interestingly, one of the sites I read said that DirecTV doesn't have a carriage contract for WDTN-DT (same as Time Warner), so if they launched today, you wouldn't get NBC in HD through the dish. I wonder if DirecTV would hold up a rollout for Dayton over that--maybe they go all or nothing? Is that site suggesting that there are agreements in place with the other local stations, to carry the digital channels, and that they're just waiting to turn everything "on" ??

As far as "all or nothing", I think both D* and E* will launch a local city's locals as long as they have "most" stations available. I know E* has markets that they don't carry all of the analog stations today and presume D* has similar markets.

Dang, anyone know what WDTN-DT's problem is with letting other carriers carry their signal? Safe to say, $$$. They want more than the providers are willing to pay. WDTN is owned by LIN and this is pretty normal for many LIN stations all over the country. It's certainly not someone locally at WDTN that's holding things up.

Yes, I am still getting the local guide data for WRGT-DT. I wonder if they have some sort of issue with service zip codes. I'm in 45440.

Interesting thought. I am in 45371 (Tipp City). I'll play around with the zip code settings tomorrow morning and download the guide again and see what happens...

On a side note -- of those of you who receive OTA locals, do you find that WBDT is a lower signal strength than your other locals? I get 85-94 signal on all of my locals except WBDT, I cannot even get a lock unless I play with the antenna (attic mounted U-75R)

I get all the stations at 95+ except for WKEF. It's the lowest for me. WBDT comes in for me just as strong as the others. According to antennaweb.org, all the stations are at 199-200' from 45371 so you shouldn't really have to aim towards one and sacrifice any of the others (I have to do that to get better numbers for WKEF).

Changing the zip code in your receiver won't do anything. That only tells you the numbers for aiming the dish.

Changing the zip code in your receiver won't do anything. That only tells you the numbers for aiming the dish.

That's what I thought, but at this point I'm willing to try anything :)

mlbUC:

What receiver are you using, the 622? Do you know what version of the software is in it?

I have a 622. I wasn't referring to changing the ZIP on the receiver, but rather maybe they have it screwed up on their side of things (as in service address zip code). I'm running L443.

I have a 622. I wasn't referring to changing the ZIP on the receiver, but rather maybe they have it screwed up on their side of things (as in service address zip code). I'm running L443.

Ah, I see. Quite possible. Thanks for the info!

On a side note -- of those of you who receive OTA locals, do you find that WBDT is a lower signal strength than your other locals? I get 85-94 signal on all of my locals except WBDT, I cannot even get a lock unless I play with the antenna (attic mounted U-75R)

First, you have to realize that reading(for the OTA digital part of the receiver) is very likely NOT a signal strength reading. It is more likely to be showing you (basically) how "easy" it is to decode the digital data contained within the signal, even if it's labeled "signal strength". It's probably usually best to think of it as a signal Quality meter.

Specifically it's probably looking at things like Bit error rate. Issues such as multipath can effect it as well. For instance, one could have an extremely strong signal present, but show a "0" on the meter or "bouncing around" readings because the receiver's equalizer can't correct for the multipath. Uncorrectable multipath (or any interference of any sort) is just seen as "noise" by the receiver.

OTOH, one can have a fairly weak(but very "clean") signal, just slightly above the threshold required for DTV reception and still see high readings on the receiver's signal quality meter. It only takes about 16DB of Signal over noise to achieve perfect DTV reception ...

WBDT digital does have the lowest power UHF "full power allocation" from FCC I'm aware of for a full service station - Not just for Dayton, but anywhere. That's 35KW ERP, which is what they're transmitting at. The good news is, their directional transmit antenna favors your direction, so you should be getting all of that 35KW ERP "squirted" your direction. Which would be about 4db less signal than WKEF-DT sends your way, about 9db less signal than WPTD-DT sends your way, about 11db less than WRGT-DT sends your way, and about 14~15db less than WHIO-DT or WDTN-DT sends your way.

You would probably see a significant improvement regarding both multipath and signal strength issues if you put the antenna on top of the roof(and away from any nearby obstructions) instead of underneath it. Typically as a "rule of thumb"(not precise - just a "rule of thumb" - could be more could be less), putting antenna indoors attenuates signals by about 20db vs a outdoor location for receive antenna. From tipp city, (especially if you add a preamp as well), even though you're slightly outside of the predicted coverage areas for cincinnati stations, chances are still probalby good you might receive some of the Cincinnati stations from the "roof" as well.

Here is a FCC map of WBDT-DT's predicted service area - The use of a properly aimed outdoor directional receive antenna with about 10db gain(U-75R would be close to meeting that on UHF - close enough anyway), and 4db of loss in 100FT of coax run is assumed for the "edge" of the coverage area(41dbu service contour). It is of course possible to receive stations from outside their predicted coverage area as well, which generally requires a high gain antenna setup(outdoors).

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT628342.html

Wow, excellent information there... I really appreciate it! Looks like I might try and get that antenna outside (if the wife will permit) :)

Thanks again! You're obviously an expert on this stuff...

Heywire,

Thanks for the nice words but not an expert here ...

You might want to go here (http://www.tvfool.com) +punch in your address and a antenna height of 20FT or so and see what it says. It takes things such as terrain into account and is much more accurate than the map at FCC site, as well as antennaweb, the latter which is operating with incorrect info on some stations transmitting facilities in some cases.

If it says -70dbm or "stronger" for WBDT-DT chances are probably a bit better you might be able to move your antenna around a bit indoors and achieve better results -- but no guarentees, especially if multipath is more of a problem for you than signal strength. And, chances are probably very good that it will be "easier" to improve your reception by going outdoors ...

Wow, excellent information there... I really appreciate it! Looks like I might try and get that antenna outside (if the wife will permit) :)

Thanks again! You're obviously an expert on this stuff...

You may want to try a silver sensor. I have been using mine indoors with my ATSC tuner for 3 years or so. When I switched to E* on Monday, I wanted to move to an outdoor antenna to give me a little more reliability considering I'd be using OTA for DVRing, eventhough I rarely had to move my silver sensor around in the house.

Anyways, I bought a Phillips MANT940(?) the other day at lowes, mounted it outside and was able to pick up all the locals at around 60-70 signal strength. I was having occasional drop out issues with 2,22,26. After messing around with the antenna placement awhile tonight, i decided to just plug in my silver sensor in, and BAM! 100 on all daytons. After cutting a few cables, I moved the SS high up in my attic, and I continued to have 100 signal strength. I did a rescan and to my huge suprise, I picked up 5, 12, 64, and PBS out of Cincy with signal strengths in the mid 70's. I'll have to play around with the direction a little more and see if I can pull in 9 and 19, but if I remember correctly, those stations are further away.

And oh yea, I'm still not getting guide info for 45 (and now 5) with E*.

Man.... one of these days I'm gonna see about mounting my U75R outside of my attic. It's UHF only though so there's a few Cincy stations I wouldn't be able to get.

hello browerjs..
can you check your channel 114.2 on your qam and see if tnt hd is working for you? mine went black.. not sure if its moved or now being encrypted :(

I wanted to move to an outdoor antenna to give me a little more reliability ....

I bought a Phillips MANT940(?)


this thing ? : http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5000836

If that's it, (MANT940), No offense meant, but Bad choice, IMO. For one thing, it's amplified, and assuming the amp is actually receiving power properly, no telling what the specs on its amp is regarding such things as maximum input levels or it's noise factor. If you are within 10~15 miles of the Dayton transmitters, unless terrain or atteunation by nearby obstructions or trees/etc. are an issue It's quite likely the Dayton TV/FM signals are very, very strong. It does say 18db gain(which is probably mostly "gain" from it's amp not the antenna itself), which is possibly too much for an amp+outdoor antenna for your location. That by itself could be causing your "dropout" issues with it, as strong signals can easily overload your receiver or the amp itself and "basically" create/spread IMD all over the place (intermodulation distortion). Or, it could be multipath, or something else causing your "dropout" problems with it ...

For another, MANT940 appears to be a unconventional and AFAIK unproven design. I suspect You would have been much better off with a U-75R (also UHF only - UHF Yagi+Corner reflector), or for VHF+UHF in one antenna an antenna like this one(VHF/UHF combo of conventional design - yagi/UHF corner reflector/etc).

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5000835

As for Silver Sensor, it's a fine antenna -- A small UHF log periodic, which is also a well proven "conventional" antenna design, BTW. IMO An outdoor version(unamplified for your situation, probably) of it would be a better choice than MANT940, probably obviously so since you seem to be getting better results with the Silver Sensor indoors. Although, it does not offer as much gain/performance as a U-75R(which BTW is by no means a "top" UHF performer -- You need to step up to UHF antennas such as CM4228 or Antennasdirect XG91 for that ).... You can't *really* have "too much antenna", but you can run into problems sometimes when you use ampfliers ...

You can go here+compare the performance specs for many popular antennas :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Also keep in mind Proper installation(including for "amplfied" antennas - for instance, with those you can't have anything in line -- like a standard splitter which will block the power supplied via the coax to the amp in the antenna) as well as placing antenna in a good spot for reception is sometimes just as important outdoors, the latter regarding placing antenna in a "good spot" due to issues such as multipath. Usually however, Multipath is much less of an issue outdoors than is the case indoors. There's also the issues of how long the coax run is, and what is in line between the antenna+receiver(diplexors/etc) which could be additional atteunation factors.


I did a rescan and to my huge suprise, I picked up 5, 12, 64, and PBS out of Cincy with signal strengths in the mid 70's. I'll have to play around with the direction a little more and see if I can pull in 9 and 19, but if I remember correctly, those stations are further away.


#1. That isn't showing signal strength. See my response to heywire above.

#2. I'm not surprised at all. Most Cincinnati stations cover Dayton area extremely well with their signals - Terrain obstruction issues can certianly be a problem however.

#3. WCPO-DT 10 (analog 9) is VHF. Silver sensor is UHF antenna.

#4. WCPO's tower is just a couple of blocks North from WKRC's(12/31 digital), which is a couple of miles east of WXIX(19/29 Digital) and WPTO(14 analog transmits from oxford, but WPTO-DT 28 digital transmits from WXIX tower) is a bit over a mile west of WLWT(5 analog /35 digital) and WCET(48 analog/digital 34), which are in between WCPO/WKRC and WXIX/WPTO digital stick. WSTR (64, digital 33) is several miles north of the others, and the closest one to you. WCVN(KET/PBS - analog 54/digital 24) is in Northern KY on a Short stick - You're generally probably a little out of range for that one, due to their lower transmitting antenna height.

#5. Maybe Try the silver sensor outdoors as a "test". Since it's (for the most part)UHF only, WCPO will probalby be a long shot, but it will probably give you a much better shot at WXIX than what you have indoors ...

--------------------


It's UHF only though so there's a few Cincy stations I wouldn't be able to get.

Just one digital VHF Cincinnati station currently, but it's an important one, IMO ...(WCPO-DT 10/ABC HD, Jeopardy Wheel HD, WCPO News HD) ....

WKRC (CBS HD and ESPN HD for the Bengals games this year, in the past they had the now defunct Paramount HD one movie package+WEBN fireworks in HD 2000~2003) is on UHF 31 currently, but will be moving to VHF 12 after analog shut off on Feb 18, 2009.

The other digital stations in Cincinnati are UHF, and will remain on UHF past analog shut off.

Columbus has 1 VHF digital station (WSYX-DT 13/ABC HD), and it will remain that way post analog shut off as well. You're probably a little out of range for the other VHF digital in the area, WLIO-DT 8 (analog 35), Lima, but Folks a bit North of Dayton probably can have some luck with them.

Update: Oh -- BTW, given I think you had sais you haven't had *any* luck indoors with Cincinnati so far (getting antenna near window facing the towers can often provide the least amount of attenuation indoors - although certian types of window glass/coatings/etc can be a problem - just "plain old glass" works great in my experience however) ... *do* keep in mind there are some spots in Dayton area (especially probably in some spots in Kettering area or "in the Valley" a couple of miles South of Downtown) .... that cause the cincinnati signals to be *severely* terrain obstructed, can especially be a difficult issue to deal with on UHF .... I think you had said however that your neighbor acheives good results with Cincinnati, and that should be a good sign ....

Checking out www.tvfool.com should help as well .. Stations that are predicted to be -90dbm or less may require an amp for best results(which along the lines of my response to browerjs unfortunetly may NOT be a good idea if the Dayton signals are too strong, as if they are amp or receiver can be overloaded, which can *especially* sometimes cause problems if you're trying to receive weaker signals on channels near or next to the strong signals (such as WKRC-DT 31/WXIX-DT 29 Cincinnati and much stronger WRGT-DT 30 in between those two) ....

this thing ? : http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=5000836

If that's it, (MANT940), No offense meant, but Bad choice, IMO. For one thing, it's amplified, and assuming the amp is actually receiving power properly, no telling what the specs on its amp is regarding such things as maximum input levels or it's noise factor. If you are within 10~15 miles of the Dayton transmitters, unless terrain or atteunation by nearby obstructions or trees/etc. are an issue It's quite likely the Dayton TV/FM signals are very, very strong. It does say 18db gain(which is probably mostly "gain" from it's amp not the antenna itself), which is possibly too much for an amp+outdoor antenna for your location. That by itself could be causing your "dropout" issues with it, as strong signals can easily overload your receiver or the amp itself and "basically" create/spread IMD all over the place (intermodulation distortion). Or, it could be multipath, or something else causing your "dropout" problems with it ...

Yea the MANT940 went back yesterday, I had a number of diplexers/splitters in the line, so i'm sure that added to the issue, I tried it with and w/o the amp, and it really didn't make a bit of difference in "Signal Strength"...

I guess the only reason I was suprised I got Cincys was because I had never picked them up before inside... (Of course I was going through several walls, and am now just going through one)

hello browerjs..
can you check your channel 114.2 on your qam and see if tnt hd is working for you? mine went black.. not sure if its moved or now being encrypted :(

I cancelled TWC this week and went to E*, so I can't check anymore. Sorry.

For another, MANT940 appears to be a unconventional and AFAIK unproven design. I suspect You would have been much better off with a U-75R (also UHF only - UHF Yagi+Corner reflector), or for VHF+UHF in one antenna an antenna like this one(VHF/UHF combo of conventional design - yagi/UHF corner reflector/etc).


So if I bought one of these and just tossed it up in my attic, do you think I'd get more reception then my Silver Sensor (namely 9 and 19)?

It depends on your attic (construction, shingles, siding, etc). My antenna is probably 20-25' high in the attic but I'm shooting through asphalt shingles. I'm also 6-8 miles from the TV towers. Anyway, on my 622, the "number" I get for all the locals is 95-100. WKEF only gets in the 88-92 range. I do get WKOI, which is further and in a different direction from me, and it reads in the 75 range.

Where is your dish mounted ? I've never looked into the actual "look angle" but I've wondered if you could use the dish's mast to mount the antenna.

I've tried turning the antenna fairly due south towards Cincy. When I do that though, I'm going through one side of my roof, two sides of my neighbor's roof, and possibly more roofs.... The houses going "up" the street, or south, are each slightly higher than the next. Needless to say, I got NO Cincy stations. Oddly though, using my Terk knock-off of a Silver Sensor, I was able to get channel 64 (analog) with the antenna sitting on top of my bedroom TV (bedroom is on NE corner of house, so that should be *worse*).

My neighbor has a fairly old UHF/VHF antenna with a non-functioning rotator that appears to be pointed more towards Cincy stations so he's picking up Dayton's from the side. His antenna is 25-30' high, I'm guessing. Two bad he's two houses away... I could get him to let me tie into his antenna and be done with it all !

Is that site suggesting that there are agreements in place with the other local stations, to carry the digital channels, and that they're just waiting to turn everything "on" ??

That was my understanding, yes. I wish I could find it again to point you to it, but it was contained in an attachment posted to a forum... which one, I can't remember. If I come across it again, I'll post it here.

It depends on your attic (construction, shingles, siding, etc). My antenna is probably 20-25' high in the attic but I'm shooting through asphalt shingles. I'm also 6-8 miles from the TV towers. Anyway, on my 622, the "number" I get for all the locals is 95-100. WKEF only gets in the 88-92 range. I do get WKOI, which is further and in a different direction from me, and it reads in the 75 range.

Where is your dish mounted ? I've never looked into the actual "look angle" but I've wondered if you could use the dish's mast to mount the antenna.

I've tried turning the antenna fairly due south towards Cincy. When I do that though, I'm going through one side of my roof, two sides of my neighbor's roof, and possibly more roofs.... The houses going "up" the street, or south, are each slightly higher than the next. Needless to say, I got NO Cincy stations. Oddly though, using my Terk knock-off of a Silver Sensor, I was able to get channel 64 (analog) with the antenna sitting on top of my bedroom TV (bedroom is on NE corner of house, so that should be *worse*).

My neighbor has a fairly old UHF/VHF antenna with a non-functioning rotator that appears to be pointed more towards Cincy stations so he's picking up Dayton's from the side. His antenna is 25-30' high, I'm guessing. Two bad he's two houses away... I could get him to let me tie into his antenna and be done with it all !

I don't really have the option of mounting the antenna on my mast. My antenna is basically only pointing through the wall of the attic and the vinyl siding. I'll have to play around this weekend.

I posted this in the Cinci thread, but I figure since I'm right in the middle of Dayton and Cinci, I'd post here as well.

I think I have an idea of what I need, but I figured I'd throw it out there. I just switched to Dish, and didn't realize that my local ABC, FOX, NBC, and CBS weren't available in HD yet. I think I got DirectTV's and Dish's local HD channel availabilty mixed up when I was comparing the two. Anyways, I'm stuck with Dish now and really, I only want the locals for HD football games (I could careless about the other programming that's on there). So, I guess I need an OTA antenna until the locals are available in HD.

I live in Trenton, right in between Hamilton and Middletown, and according to antennaweb I'm about 20-25 miles to most on the station antenna's in Cinci and Dayton. It looks like some people have had success with getting the channels with a Terk HDTVa or the similiar Zenith model. Will this suffice, or should I get a bigger Channel Master antenna to put up in the attic (I'm scared of heights and there's no way I'll be getting on the roof)?

Again, I just want ABC, NBC, FOX and CBS for football. I could care less about getting the PBS/CW channels.

Thanks

Rob

Antennas like the HDTVa are easily returned and require a LOT less work so I'd try those first. You can put an HDTVa type in the attic too, by the way. They can work at that distance also.

Yea the MANT940 went back yesterday, I had a number of diplexers/splitters in the line, so i'm sure that added to the issue, I tried it with and w/o the amp, and it really didn't make a bit of difference in "Signal Strength"...


Keep in mind The amp in the antenna can't function if the splitters/diplexors(or anything else in line that would block the power - a standard splitter will block it) don't pass the power supplied by the power supply - you can't have anything in line between power supply+antenna that would block the power being supplied via the coax.

Most amplified antennas can't be used w/o the amp(I think Hall had said terk HDTV(a) is an exception to that because it had a 'switch' that let you "switch out" the amplifier circuitry to effectively use the antenna w/o an amp - don't know if the MANT940 has something like that), because having the amplifiers circuitry unpowered GREATLY attenuates the signals coming from antenna --- by 40~60db or more --- MUCH MUCH more than if you weren't using an amplifier at all. A paper clip for an antenna would be a much better antenna in most circumstances than an amplified antenna without the amplifier working.

So, unless it does allow you to "switch out" the amp and use the antenna without it, Seems likely to me that was your main problem with the MANT940.
[/quote]


So if I bought one of these and just tossed it up in my attic, do you think I'd get more reception then my Silver Sensor (namely 9 and 19)?


Difficult to say. If you can get no sort of signal reading whatsoever from those stations with the Silver Sensor, then chances aren't good you'll be able to get them with a U-75R indoors. And, Very doubtful you'd be able to receive WCPO on VHF 10(analog 9) with U-75R indoors, as its a UHF only antenna.

I'd say A U-75R outdoors+aimed at Cincinnati has a very good chance of doing the trick for WXIX 29(analog 19), however. You still might have to make sure the antenna is in a "good spot" for receiving them(there can be "hot spots" and "cold spots" to place an antenna for best reception all over the place ... Even a spot a few feet away can make a big difference) Still not a good bet for WCPO on VHF - best to use an antenna designed for VHF reception for that.

The antenna at following link may be an option for you or others wanting to pull in VHF hi-band stations such as WCPO cincinnat --- it's is a new(I think) antenna design which is for VHF HI(ch 7~13) and UHF(ch 14~69) only -- leaving out the much "longer" elements required for lo-VHF (ch 2-6 and FM reception), greatly reducing the size of the antenna. It probably doesn't perform quite as well on UHF as a U-75R however(nor does it perform as well on VHF hi as a VHF HI antenna such as Winegard YA-1713), but should perform a tad bit better than a silver sensor on UHF.

http://www.antennacraft.net/HBU22.htm

I'm missing 114.2, too. DiscoverHD is still coming in on 114.1.

From the FCC Headlines page.
For Sept. 11 2007

>FCC passes DTV rules for cable


The FCC approved new rules to require cable companies to carry digital
>and analog signals for "must carry" broadcast stations. The new
>provisions will sunset three years after the February 2009 transition
to
>all digital TV broadcasts. The commission also approved the
>program-access rules that would block cable operators from distorting
>broadcasters' HDTV signals when they are transmitted over cable lines
in
>digital form.

I'm missing 114.2, too. DiscoverHD is still coming in on 114.1.

I have the limited tier (6.75) plus HD Tier (7.95) package from TWC. I also have a cablecard TV plust a 3250HD STB. A couple of days ago, TNT-HD, Discovery HD and ESPN2HD disappeared from my STB. To be more accurate, the box now says it is a subscription service that I amnot subscribed to. On my cablecard TV, I can still get Discovery-HD but not TNT-HD. It appears that TNT-HD is now encrypted, while Discovery HD is not (hence I am still able to get Discovery HD with my cablecard).

TWC's Cincinnati web site gave notice that ESPN2HD would be placed on the HD standard tier. It also gave notice that ESPNHD would move to the HD standard tier. TWC Dayton, as far as I know, never really has defined exactly what tier TNT-HD and Discovery HD are on, but apparently they are now on the standard tier as well. The standard tier apparently now requires a subscription to expanded basic plus digital service. Hence, I would expect Discovery HD to disappear as well.

TWC, by FCC regulation, is required to give 30 days notice before it discontinues programming or moves programming to a higher tier. It doesn't appear as if it complied with the notice requirements as these moves were never put on its web site (for Dayton).

In any event, I will be switching to DirecTV for the Big Ten Network, FSN-HD, the NFL Network, and all of the upcoming HD programming. DirecTV installers have been working from 6:00 am to sunset here in Ohio switching people over for the Big Ten Network.

Also, for the CableCARD people in Dayton using TWC. I spoke with a rep the other day about my ESPN2HD and was told that it was NOT supported if you were using CableCARD but it was if you had a STB.

As a side question....

Does the Sept 11 FCC decision mean that NBC and CW will have to be picked up for HD in the near future?

D

Does the Sept 11 FCC decision mean that NBC and CW will have to be picked up for HD in the near future?


No.

Update: Sorry, it was dinnertime so had to cut that answer short -- To expand on that a bit :

Broadcasters are not(will not be) required to allow cable or anyone else to carry their signals.

The recent FCC ruling was about requiring cablecos to provide analog only cable customers with analog signals (until 2012) OF the broadcasters digital signals they do carry. For those folks(analog only cable customers), they would have either to convert digital to analog at the headend, or provide customers with digial to analog converters. Broadcast signals that are HD would have to be "downcoverted" to analog of course.

I think They have to do this because by the time broadcasters "shut off" their analog signals on 2/17/09, many "analog" cable subscribers will probably not have TV's with "in the clear" QAM tuners in them to allow them to access the digital signals(including HD) of broadcasters carried on cable.

Now *will* WDTN-DT and WBDT-DT digital signals be carried on TW Dayton area cable by 2/17/09(when the analogs go off air) .... My best guess would be yes, most likely, but no guarentees ... Will that be "HD"? My best guess would be probably, but less likely than regarding whether their signals are carried at all. Supposse its possible they could only allow cable to carry a SD feed they send them, such as via WDTN-DT's current SD "subchannel" ....... Wouldn't think they'd do that, but who knows given they haven't been able to reach an agreement yet with TW for carriage of their digital(including HD) signals ....

TWC, by FCC regulation, is required to give 30 days notice before it discontinues programming or moves programming to a higher tier. I wonder if the FCC's rules on something like this typically only apply to the "standard" tier levels ?

If the FCC hadn't made the recent ruling they did, you'd almost be guaranteed that the analog cutoff would mean an automatic agreement for carriage of the digital channel(s) on cable or satellite. The majority of viewers do get their programming from cable or satellite. If a TV station was available only via OTA, their viewer numbers would be hurting real bad, which in turn will hurt their advertising income. Without cable or satellite payments, advertising is a TV station's only source of income, isn't it ??

Sometimes I wonder if the cable and satellite companies have given up on coming to agreements and are (were) counting on the analog shutoff to force the stations.

If the FCC hadn't made the recent ruling they did, you'd almost be guaranteed that the analog cutoff would mean an automatic agreement for carriage of the digital channel(s) on cable or satellite.


I wouldn't think it has much to do with that, at all.

There will *be* no analog signals from the broadcasters for the cableco to carry after 2/17/09, regardless of the recent ruling.

Doesn't mean they can't provide the cableco with a "seperate" SD feed after 2/17/09(since the analog won't be on the air), but it won't be their "analog" signal as is carried per cable carriage agreements now, as again, they won't have a "analog" signal.

I wonder if the FCC's rules on something like this typically only apply to the "standard" tier levels ?


Think it pretty much covers everything, although a little "differently" for broadcast signals they carry. Here's the portion of FCC rules I think you're interested in :

:

(b) Customers will be notified of any changes in rates, programming services
or channel positions as soon as possible in writing. Notice must be given to
subscribers a minimum of thirty (30) days in advance of such changes if the
change is within the control of the cable operator. In addition, the cable
operator shall notify subscribers 30 days in advance of any significant
changes in the other information required by Sec. 76.1602.

(c) In addition to the requirement of paragraph (b) of this section
regarding advance notification to customers of any changes in rates,
programming services or channel positions, cable systems shall give 30 days
written notice to both subscribers and local franchising authorities before
implementing any rate or service change. Such notice shall state the precise
amount of any rate change and briefly explain in readily understandable
fashion the cause of the rate change (e.g., inflation, change in external
costs or the addition/deletion of channels). When the change involves the
addition or deletion of channels, each channel added or deleted must be
separately identified. For purposes of the carriage of digital broadcast
signals, the operator need only identify for subscribers, the television
signal added and not whether that signal may be multiplexed during certain
dayparts.


For the full text of FCC rule on this see CFR 47 $76.1603 available here.

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/76/1603/

(note if still "available" at that time the url will change to having a 2008 in it in 2008,etc)

All current FCC rules as codifed into the Code of Federal Regulations are "indexed" and can currently be Accessed here :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2007/

Most of the rules for cable are in section 76(Multichannel video and television services), most of the rules for TV(including digital) can be found in section 73(Radio broaddcast services - As you'll see if you click on the sec. 73 Link, AM/FM and TV broadcast are covered/or have seperate "sections" of section 73) .


If a TV station was available only via OTA, their viewer numbers would be hurting real bad, which in turn will hurt their advertising income. Without cable or satellite payments, advertising is a TV station's only source of income, isn't it ??


I'd think nearly all TV stations "want" to be carried on local cable systems and via DBS LiL, and as I said in earlier post, I'd think it's likely by analog shut off time WDTN/WBDT and TW/etc will be able to "come to an agreement" for *some* sort of carriage of WDTN/WBDT digital signals ... Right now, their analog stations are on there, so I suspect they can "afford" to Play the $ card(or whatever it is they want, I'd guess it's probably $) for Retransmission consent agreement for their digital/HD signals ...

HOWEVER -- These TV stations are owned by companies who also own many(or several) other TV stations, and I'd think there may be details that are very "specific" to each station they own that might involve how "important" it is to the parent company whether or not its carried on local Cable or DBS LiL ... So, Maybe in some cases(such as if the station involved isn't a "cash cow" for them anyway) it might be more important for them to "hold their ground" and try to get what they're asking for via Retransmission consent rather than "cave" because some amount of viewers won't put up an antenna to receive them ...

I think regarding what "might happen", it is a little telling that you DON'T see WBDT+WDTN going out of their way to promote their OTA broadcast service ...

One of the first things WCPO Cincinnati mentioned their first Day of going HD with their news is that you can receive their HD with antenna, BEFORE they said anything about cable or satellite(it is available via Cable in Cincinnati/N KY and via D* LiL, BTW) ...

I've Never heard anything like that from WDTN or WBDT .....

I confused the part that the cablecos still have to provide analog on their end but as you say, there will be no analog coming from the local stations. The other part of my statement still makes sense though. The agreements in place today are for the analog channels. After Feb 09, WDTN and CW will *lose* a huge number of viewers unless they allow TWC to carry their digital feeds.

I confused the part that the cablecos still have to provide analog on their end but as you say, there will be no analog coming from the local stations.
The cablecos will have to convert the digital feed to analog unless the TV station provides an analog feed to the cableco itsefl.

The other part of my statement still makes sense though. The agreements in place today are for the analog channels. After Feb 09, WDTN and CW will *lose* a huge number of viewers unless they allow TWC to carry their digital feeds.
And TWC would lose a huge amount of appeal as well. Who's going to want to pay for cable if they don't carry 2 major broadcast networks?

And TWC would lose a huge amount of appeal as well. Who's going to want to pay for cable if they don't carry 2 major broadcast networks? TWC can have the upper hand here.... On the channel where you'd expect to find WDTN or CW, TWC can put up a banner giving their side of the story. The TV stations would have to resort to newspapers or something to get their side out... They won't be able to do anything via TV ! :)

Just a follow up to the issues with no EGP info for WRGT-TV/DT on Dish... I added a 211 to my account and it doesn't have EPG info for WRGT, while my 622 does. Not sure what to think of it now...

Just a follow up to the issues with no EGP info for WRGT-TV/DT on Dish... I added a 211 to my account and it doesn't have EPG info for WRGT, while my 622 does. Not sure what to think of it now...

Wow, now that really doesn't make sense! Dish asked for a bunch of information from my 622 (software version, revision, access card number, etc), and supposedly their "engineers" are looking into the issue. I'm not holding my breath :) I just hope they get it fixed before the new episodes of House start... I'd hate to have to schedule them manually, but I guess that's what I'll do... it's amazing how lazy having a DVR has made me :)

Did you call the regular tech support line ? Did they fully understand what you were referring to and that is *used* to work ?

Dish asked for a bunch of information from my 622 (software version, revision, access card number, etc), and supposedly their "engineers" are looking into the issue. I'm not holding my breath I just tried tech support and they have "no reports" of this issue. They also took my information and will report it....

I just tried tech support and they have "no reports" of this issue. They also took my information and will report it....

I reported it last week via Tech Chat... She said she'd pass it along to the engineers...

The other part of my statement still makes sense though.


I didn't say it didn't make sense. You must have missed the 2nd section of my last post, after the part on FCC rules regarding cableco "customer service" obligations. (sorry, I was a bit busy last night and addressed your points from different posts in "different posts" and "out of order" so to speak).

-------------------------------------------------------------


And TWC would lose a huge amount of appeal as well. Who's going to want to pay for cable if they don't carry 2 major broadcast networks?


I think it may have been interesting if Sinclair and Cox hadn't come to agreement with TW Dayton for carriage of digital signals from WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT and WHIO-DT. That probably would have offered a lot more "enticement" to folks to use OTA, and perhaps more "enticement" to TW to give WDTN/WDTN whatever they want want, as in that case all you would have had via HD/digital via TW cable from broadcast nets would be PBS digital. It might help if stations would make efforts to promote their OTA service as well.

I think they've since come to a deal in other markets, but for a long time there, Dayton was about the only TW market I'm aware of that carried Sinclair digital signals.

While I suspect there are still large numbers of people who don't really know OTA "exists" (especially digital OTA where you don't get "snow" or "ghosts" or Fuzzy pictures -- for the most part you either get a perfect picture or nothing (or if you have reception problems a perfect picture with reception related "dropouts" occasionally) ... *IF* it were the case you couldn't watch say, NFL football from Cable or DBS, I expect you'd start seeing a LOT of antennas go up ... Less of them perhaps if you had to do it for "HD" and got the analog stations via cable ....

I've said this before, but you tell the average person that you can get "HD" (digital) from your old antennas and their response, nine times out of ten, is "Nuh-huh".

They know OTA exists, but only the analog side. Cable or satellite has certainly went out on someone and a few people dig out the rabbit ears and see that it's still available. Of course, they see the "snow" and "ghosts" and suffer through it in most cases until their normal method is back up.

I've said this before, but you tell the average person that you can get "HD" (digital) from your old antennas and their response, nine times out of ten, is "Nuh-huh".

They know OTA exists, but only the analog side. Cable or satellite has certainly went out on someone and a few people dig out the rabbit ears and see that it's still available. Of course, they see the "snow" and "ghosts" and suffer through it in most cases until their normal method is back up.

I think you also have to blame it on the antenna manufacturers. They brand their antennas HDTV so people will spend a bit more. When I was looking for an antenna the other day at radio shack the salesperson specifically told me one would not work because it wasn't labeled as HD. I laughed at him and left.

Of course antenna's aren't the only product that companies do this for. Most MiniDV tape manufacturers also label some of their tapes as "HD", and charge a pretty penny for them, when a standard $2-3 MiniDV tape works great for HD on my Canon HV20 HD camcorder.

Don't forget the "HD pizza" Ads either ;)

Man.... one of these days I'm gonna see about mounting my U75R outside of my attic. It's UHF only though so there's a few Cincy stations I wouldn't be able to get.

I hope I'm not repeating something here, but I thought I'd mention that my U75R 30 ft. high gets ch.8 at a distance of about 32 miles, although it's over flat terrain and thus unlike Cincinnati. On the other hand, it's also pointed in the wrong direction. It might well be worth trying, esp. if you're trying for ch.10.

I hope I'm not repeating something here, but I thought I'd mention that my U75R 30 ft. high gets ch.8 at a distance of about 32 miles, although it's over flat terrain and thus unlike Cincinnati. On the other hand, it's also pointed in the wrong direction. It might well be worth trying, esp. if you're trying for ch.10.

Certianly Possibile, and certianly no harm in trying it. I'm generally of the sort that would try what I have first before "buying"/trying something else in any case. A www.tvfool.com prediction/plot for his location might tell us a little more.

Also, He could add a seperate Hi-VHF only antenna later if he wants WCPO, such as a "seperate" Winegard YA-1713 Hi-VHF band antenna -- ch 7-13 antenna - which makes it MUCH smaller than broadband ch 2-13 or VHF(ch 2-13/fm)/UHF combo antennas ....

But keep in mind :

#1). From what I can recall, I think Hall is probably about 42~45 miles+ from WCPO ... That's usually a lot different from 32 miles regarding how much signal from the station is present "at the antenna" .... If he were on top of a hill, say, that would probably help him out ...

#2). U75R doesn't offer performance on Hi-VHF like the "UHF Only" CM4228 does - CM4228 is the only UHF antenna I'm aware of that offers performance on some Hi-VHF channels which is "better"(significantly better on channel 10) than VHF "rabbit ears".

#3). Also -- What you're getting regarding the "antenna not being aimed at it" probably isn't something you can put too much validity in regarding any assumptions about the antennas performance, because the directional pattern on U-75R on VHF is going to be nothing like it is on UHF -- It's directivity on VHF is probably very "lacking" in other words ..... That's even true to some extent for a CM4228 on VHF.

#4). If you are in this area, I assume the channel 8 you refer to is WLIO lima ... They do run about twice as much power as WCPO, even though their TX antenna height is "lower" above ground(probably not an issue from 32 miles for you) -- which isn't necessarily "a Lot" in the grand scheme of things ...1/2 reduction in power is about 3db, about the same as adding a 2 way splitter in line .... Typically(with appropriate antenna) in "strong" signal areas within the stations coverage area, you can easily have several 10's of db more signal than is needed for DTV reception, but when you are talking about using indoor antennas or UHF antennas for VHF from say, 40 miles+ away, 3 db can mean a big difference concerning whether or not you can achieve reception of any given station ....

http://www.cleveland.com/hssports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1190106639178990.xml&coll=2
(http://www.cleveland.com/hssports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1190106639178990.xml&coll=2)

Sports Time Ohio will air HS sports everywhere except the Cincinnati area (which I assume means Dayton too). Time Warner will carry the games in this area. I wish they would just carry STO (HD preferrably) as I am an Indians fan but I would be willing to settle for FSN Ohio HD if they are going to ramp up their HD content.

If I got the antenna outside on the roof, it would be 25' min, if not higher.

I could mount it on my garage roof, but only get maybe 15' high if I'm lucky. I'd have houses, trees, etc in the way though. I'll bet I get Dayton's stations okay though, but not Cincy's. Since I already get Dayton's just fine, I don't have a lot of motivation to try that option yet..

http://www.cleveland.com/hssports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1190106639178990.xml&coll=2
(http://www.cleveland.com/hssports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1190106639178990.xml&coll=2)

Sports Time Ohio will air HS sports everywhere except the Cincinnati area (which I assume means Dayton too). Time Warner will carry the games in this area. I wish they would just carry STO (HD preferrably) as I am an Indians fan but I would be willing to settle for FSN Ohio HD if they are going to ramp up their HD content.

Since you're not in the Indians local market it's highly unlikely you'll ever get STO added to TWC in SW Ohio. Too many people would be really confused when the majority of the programming they want to watch is blacked out. If you want STO and don't care if you don't get the Indians games, get DBS and subscribe to a RSN package to get your high school sports on STO. If you want to watch the Indians, then get MLB:EI.

If I got the antenna outside on the roof, it would be 25' min, if not higher.


Wow --- .... Looks like you probably have some serious terrain obstruction issues ... As it says in the info on TVfool site, signals below -110dbm (in the "grey" shaded area) may be very difficult to receive ...

You never know, given the results your neighbor is getting but .... Those Cincinnati Signals are predicted to be QUITE WEAK at your location ... Do keep in mind we can't count on that prediction to be extremely "exact", but in general While I think it is possible with the *best* outdoor antenna setups with preamp(in the middle of nowhere with no STRONG signals around to overload preamp/tuner) to *perhaps* have some sort of shot at signals as weak as -120dbm(maybe even a little weaker), even then I think you may have to get a little lucky for it to be reliable ----

Generally, if you're lucky you *may* be able to receive stations as low as -90dbm or so from indoors (which seems to agree with your results so far indoors+given what the plot says) ....

and, anything below about -100db~-105db or so may be difficult to have a shot at with something like a U75R without a preamp outdoors, maybe even with a preamp .... Heck, the prediction shows you need to get the antenna about 60feet high for -100dbm(still weak) signal the strongest predicted Cincinanti station ...No wonder you didn't have a shot of it from indoors ...

You'll likely need a high gain antenna setup(probably something better than U-75R on UHF, and definitely a "real" VHF antenna for WCPO-DT and for WKRC-DT when they move to VHF after analog shut off) for a shot at them at all, and it *still* might not be easy ... A preamp will likely even be necessary for Cincinnati(and *still* no guarentees) as well IMO, but *NOT* for Dayton .... which is a real problem, as with the Dayton signals ~70db stronger, and ~50 degree difference in heading it's very, very possible they'll "overload" your tuner/amp and make the weak signals extremely difficult to see ... That's the sort of situation where you might need seperate dayton/Cincinnati antennas(with the "best" of hi-gain antennas for increased gain+directivity -- partly to help you "reject" more of the dayton stations signals - A "stacked" UHF antenna array may not even be a bad idea in that regard for UHF, and a seperate hi-VHF antenna setup), preamp and perhaps even filtering off(with probably expensive channel traps) at least the strongest Dayton stations on the cincinnati antenna ...

I dunno -- If you want and it doesn't take too much effort if you can put together a "temporary" mount to try the U75R, and see what happens why not I suppose if you get "bored" someday and are looking for a project ... But I'm not real optimistic you would achieve good results, and if you *didn't* get anything(at least Some cincinnati UHF signals nearing a lock) with that experiment and a relatively short coax run, might not be worth it to mess around with a "better" antenna, either ... Hard to say though, reception should be some sort of possibility for stations -120dbm or above, just depends on how much you might want to "mess around" or spend with it with the understanding that no matter what you do, you might not achieve the success you want ....

In other words, I'd guess you might just "Feel better" about it if you stick to your current setup+the Dayton stations(assuming you're not getting any multipath related dropouts) .....

But, If you want to prove me wrong, You very well may be able to, it's just difficult to say with signals that are predicted to be that weak ... ;)

Heck, the prediction shows you need to get the antenna about 60feet high for -100dbm(still weak) signal the strongest predicted Cincinanti station 60' ? I have to question the accuracy of this tool then... My neighbor's antenna is 30' max, no amplification, and he gets Cincy digitals. I've never asked how good they come in, but they "lock", so that's a good sign.

My neighbor's antenna is 30' max, no amplification, and he gets Cincy digitals. I've never asked how good they come in, but they "lock", so that's a good sign.

Yep ... How far away is your Neigbhor's house/is it at a higher elevation than yours ?

Given some of the "hills" in the area, It's certianly the case You can certianly have a significantly worse terrain obstruction in the signal path at your location but a neighbor a couple hundred feet away may not, however ... The terrain data used by the tvfool website is very precise (From the Space shuttle's most "detailed" SRTM dataset) .. But usually(not allways) the "worst" terrain issues of that sort are very obvious because they're often very "close" to you ...

That being said, from what I've seen so far I expect the signal predictions from that site may be a little on the "conservative" side (meaning the signals may be a bit stronger than they are predicted)... So, It's even not "impossible" that they are 20db stronger than predicted for instance(although usually you also have other attenuation issues to deal with, such as from Trees which are NOT modelled), in which case you may very well have a shot at the Cincinnati stations by moving the U75 Outdoors ...

edit: Also -- one very good thing about Digital OTA reception is -- You need significantly "less" signal to achieve perfect reception than you need for analog and a "non-snowy" pic ... And, as long as you "have" that threshold (which is merely 16db S/N) as long as the signal remains above that at all times you get perfect DTV reception ... But it is awfully nice(and a really good idea) to have at least 10db extra "overhead" than you need for "threshold" reception ... Not only for signal fading issues and differences in attenuation (such as leaves on trees/off trees) but also because of issues such as interference(for when enhanced signal propagation occurs) and multipath ... In other words, up to a certian point, a little "overhead" minimizes the chance you'll get "dropouts" in the middle of say, a DVR HD recording ....

I guess I just don't want to get your hopes up too much, as the *prediction* is for significantly weak signals, and actually, while it's not meant to suggest *exactly* accurate predictions, nevertheless, it's the most accurate "available" tool like this I've seen so far .... How accurate it is for *any* given receive location, no matter what the circumstances involved would be difficult to say ...

Since you're not in the Indians local market it's highly unlikely you'll ever get STO added to TWC in SW Ohio. Too many people would be really confused when the majority of the programming they want to watch is blacked out. If you want STO and don't care if you don't get the Indians games, get DBS and subscribe to a RSN package to get your high school sports on STO. If you want to watch the Indians, then get MLB:EI.

You are correct. I rechecked the blackout map and I had been thinking we (Dayton) are in the mixed Cin/Cle area but I was obviously mistaken. Oh well.

I live in the city "proper". You know, where our houses are 10' apart from each other. So his antenna might be 40-50' north of me and very little (1-2' max) elevation change.

I live in the city "proper". You know, where our houses are 10' apart from each other. So his antenna might be 40-50' north of me and very little (1-2' max) elevation change.

Wonder what TVfool says if you punch in *his* address ? 40~50FT could make a difference I suppose(probalby much less likely than 300ft), since he is North, more likely I'd think if a steep hill near you to your South is involved ..

As an example, My closest neighbor, about 300FT away from my receive antenna has signficantly "different" terrain issues than is the case for my receive antenna location, but it's very obvious why ... The edge of a steep "hill"( "cliff" really) blocks Dayton signals from his antenna, the "hill" isn't even there in that direction in the signal path from my antenna .... It could just as well be 50 Feet from him if I had antenna in a different spot and the terrain was a bit "different" ...

Also, if you know the lat/long coordinates for your receive antenna location, you might want to use/try those with TVfool as well (will be necessary to use a "minus" sign for Longditude, which will be something like -84.xxxxx) -- I.e. verify that it has your address at the "right" location ....

I also assume you "punched in" your expected receive antenna height(or what he is using for a more direct comparision with his reception results) for the TVfool prediction ... Otherwise, it uses "ground level" for the plot .. Which could involve a signifcant difference in predicted signal strength when terrain issues are involved ...

In any case, as I'm sure you've already surmised, if it works for him, should be a good chance for working for you as well ...

Neighbor's results

^ Judging from that(no difference) and what you've said about your neighbor's antenna("typical VHF/UHF combo" I take it), it would seem to me with U75 at similar height, you probably should have a good chance of acheiving the same sort of reception from Cincinnati UHF digitals as he is getting ...

I actually live in Fairfield, and Dish is not giving me any program guide info dor the OTA Dayton locals. I have the 722. Is anyone else experiencing this? I am paying for Cincinnati Locals. This is an issue because the only OTA channels I can get are the Dayton channels.

I know a guy over at satelliteguys dot us named TNGTony that has the same problem. He lives between Dayton and Cincy too, gets Cincy locals from Dish, but OTA from both. His receiver doesn't have guide data for the Dayton channels....

Along this topic, if you have Dish and are still missing guide data for WRGT (45-1) and MyTV (45-2), contact Dish and report this problem. heywire has reported as has browerjs. I also did so last week and of course, they had no other reports of this. Better yet, I called back (my intention was to "follow up" but I started all over with them) yesterday to report it and guess what ? No other reports.... I then said "*I* reported it last week and I'm just following up on if it's been confirmed and worked on".

I have Dish and two 622 receivers. I have local Cincy channels through Dish and I receive all Dayton and Cincy HD OTA channels on my 622s. I too did not get any guide info for either the Dayton or Cincy channels for almost two years. Just two weeks ago I emailed tech support through Dish's website about my problem, not expecting results as I have tried periodically to get this problem resolved. Lo and behold after several emails back and forth with a tech guy, I get guide data for every Dayton and Cincy OTA HD channel now! I was very happy. In my case, I live in Warren county but have a Centerville zip code. This was a problem for Dish, I once was told, because Warren county is in Cincy DMA and Centerville is in Dayton DMA. But, if you subscribe to locals through Dish it shouldn't matter and you should get the guide info. Anyway, it works for me now and I am very happy.

Did the support person tell you what they did ?

The missing guide data for just the (2) stations discussed recently is a different issue though.

The tech person said my problem was referred to engineering and it was working 2-3 days later. I never heard from them. I wish I did know what they did. I wrote the tech back that I was emailing back and forth with to thank him for helping getting this resolved, but he never wrote back. I do believe I am getting guide info for both WRGT sub-channels 45-1 and 45-2, also.

Hello, I just moved into Hunter's Ridge in Beavercreek. I left my VU90 XR in Utah so I'm shopping for a good VHF/UHF (incl HD) antenna to use here. My neighborhood doesn't like roof-top's, and even though I know they can't legally prohibit one, I'd like to be nice and either put it in my attic or use one that's more low profile. Does anyone have any suggestions?

All,

Well, Noticed WCPO-DT(ABC HD) Cincinnati had HD throughout for the "blowout" OSU game, but when I checked it, there was no HD from WKEF-DT for the game ....

[update:] hmmm ... Did seem unusual for WKEF to "miss" the HD for it, being a OSU game and being that stations have gotten MUCH better about passing through Network HD these days than was the case several years ago ...

So -- I wonder if that was specifically a "wkef" issue, or something else ... Such as involving how the distribution to the ohio ABC HD affilates worked today from ABC HD/ESPN HD for the OSU and Michigan games ? The way I understand it from thread in programming area, Ohio ABC affiliates ran the OSU game, ESPN(or an alternate channel) getting the michigan game, and elsewhere, ESPN ran the OSU game and ABC affiliates ran the Michigan game ... [end update]


Lachlan,

1st welcome to Dayton/Dayton thread ...

If you want VHF+UHF (including VHF-LO+FM), in the attic it probably depends upon how much "room" you have to "fit it in there" ... VU90 might not be a bad choice, but of course "bigger" is usually better .....

Do keep in mind All current Dayton digital(HD) stations are on UHF currently, and they will be after analog shut off(currently scheduled for 2/17/09) as well. to be "complete", We don't know where many of the Dayton LP stations will end up yet with digital, and there's allways a possibility there could be a "new" VHF digital in Dayton. Right now, you have analogs on VHF 2+7(their digital/HD counterparts transmit on UHF) and if you want to use your antenna for FM reception as well, as far as the Dayton stations go, that would be the only reason to use an antenna with VHF reception capability.

The reason why I bring that up is because you can find UHF Only antennas that provide better UHF performance(including for "in the attic" reception), and that are "lower profile" as well ...

You have lots of options of course ...I might start with a "simple" and inexpensive antenna, and see what you get. Perhaps even something as inexpensive as this UHF antenna, if you want VHF as well, perhaps along with a VHF/UHF joiner and a pair or "rabbit ears" .... (note: If you don't have one, you'll probably need a matching transformer if you use this one as well, and maybe some "extra" feedline to move the antenna around and try to find a "good" spot -- :

http://www.radioshack.com/sm-uhf-outline-bow-tie-antenna--pi-2062017.html

Or perhaps a silver sensor(UHF antenna) ....

OR, another option might be to start with something "for the attic"(or that you could also put outdoors if needed) but that is also still fairly inexpensive but of conventional well proven design ... Such as VU90 for VHF/UHF, or CM4221 or U75R for UHF .....

I think you have lots of options that might work well really, So I don't really feel too comfortable regarding recommending anything specific, especially since we don't know what sorts of reception results you've gotten to any degree with any antenna at your receive location(so many variables can effect reception, it's difficult to say for instance if you might have any "problems" with reception with any antenna(especially indoors), or to "guess" at what sort of results you might be able to get from say, the cincinnati or Columbus stations (It's possible you might be able to receive some of those from indoors, but generally you'd have a much better shot at it with antenna outdoors from that distance ...) ..... You can go to www.tvfool.com and see what it says for your address/location and perhaps get a little better of an idea concerning what your results may be and what antenna you might want to pick up ...

Hope that helps , Let us know how it goes!

Has anyone that was having problems with E* and the EPG for WRGT having any luck now? I'm still not, so I'm assuming it's the same across the board, just checking though.

Has anyone that was having problems with E* and the EPG for WRGT having any luck now? I'm still not, so I'm assuming it's the same across the board, just checking though.

Nope, still showing "Digital Service" on WRGT-DT :mad: I've got House manually scheduled on WRGT-DT (and on the sat feed too just in case lol)

No change for me.... How 'bout those who have HD receivers from Dish (regardless of whether or not you're missing the data) e-mail Dish tech support to continue bugging them ? Do it from here, http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/customer_service/contact_us/email/index.asp

I just made sure I have a manual timer for House for 45-1 for tonight (or tomorrow night ?).

No change for me.... How 'bout those who have HD receivers from Dish (regardless of whether or not you're missing the data) e-mail Dish tech support to continue bugging them ? Do it from here, http://www.dishnetwork.com/content/customer_service/contact_us/email/index.asp

I'll follow up with Dish Network today. I have an email trail with them I'll just reply to asking for an update...

I just made sure I have a manual timer for House for 45-1 for tonight (or tomorrow night ?).

Tonight, 9pm... I have it recording on 45-00 and 45-01 :) Unfortunately I don't get off of work until midnight, so I won't be able to watch it until tomorrow...

They replied to me just a bit ago with a *real* reply and not a canned one. Now they claim they're aware of the issue and that it might be resolved with a software update. I have to admit, I think I lost the data when my receiver took L4.43. From reading at satelliteguys though, no one else in other markets had this happen...

They replied to me just a bit ago with a *real* reply and not a canned one. Now they claim they're aware of the issue and that it might be resolved with a software update. I have to admit, I think I lost the data when my receiver took L4.43. From reading at satelliteguys though, no one else in other markets had this happen...

Did your response sound anything like this?


Thank you for your email. Thank you for providing the information for our engineering department. They will try to resolve this issue as soon as possible. Unfortunately, we do not have a status report for this situation at this time and these issues are usually fixed in a software update. Please remember to turn off your receiver when you are not watching TV, so that it can receive the update when it becomes available.

Damn near word for word.... :D

I followed up and said I started getting the data w/o a software update but may have lost it for the two with the recent update. He responded with: Our engineering department is actually working on a whole new way of implementing guide information for off-air channels. This new implementation will be far more robust and should resolve these sorts of issues. Unfortunately we do not have an ETA for the new features.

Interesting...Let's hope this is for real!

Thought I would chime in on the Dish Network/WRGT guide data situation. I've actually been in direct email contact with Dish Network's engineering department. After getting a few details from the offair counters section of my 622, they said that they "sent an email to the broadcaster, hopefully we can get this fixed quickly."

I have no idea what they determined the problem to be. Based on that response, you can draw a couple different conclusions:

1) Dish determined that it's WRGT's problem to fix.
2) Dish changed something on their end and they need info from WRGT to resolve the problem.

Or it could be something totally different - I'm not a technical person so I don't want to pretend to understand what's going on. Anyway, hopefully it will be fixed quickly, as they said.

I don't believe it's WRGT's fault. Dish gets their guide data from Tribune Media Services (they own Zap2It also). How they relate the analog station to the digital station, I don't know, but Zap2It has the proper data online for 45-1 and 45-2. If Dish used PSIP data, I could understand something 'wrong' at WRGT's end, but Dish doesn't do that.

Exactly... The guide data is there for the DISH SD feed. It was my understanding that it just mapped it down from the DISH local, but maybe it doesn't... I just checked Zap2It, and WRGTDT does have the correct guide data listed...

Besides, if it is something that WRGT would need to correct, how come there is at least one person that we know of who gets the guide data for WRGTDT?

Cross posting from the Cincinnati thread (If this is poor etiquette please let me know):

I have posted in this and the Dayton thread regarding my local HD EPG issues with the Dish Network 722 HD DVR- the dreaded "Digital Service" and nothing else in the guide. I live in the Cincinnati DMA, but only get local OTA HD from Dayton because of my location (it's Fairfield). I pay for the Cincinnati locals as you might guess.

I spent 10 minutes telling a CSR that I have read of people on forums who get guide info for any locals they pick up, regardless of market, including someone I know personally (one of my best friends). He lives even closer to Cincinnati than I do and he gets program guide info for the Dayton channels OTA. He kept telling me that the local OTA channels have to match up with the locals I am paying for. Shockingly, when I asked him to escalate the call he repeated his mantra of "I'm sorry sir, it does not work that way."

Also, I was amused that earlier in the call he said he had to look up info on the 722 menus and then said later "I'm a senior technical CSR, I know how our receivers work."

Any suggestions as to how I should proceed? If this is not resolved soon (it has been going on 2 weeks now) it will be a dealbreaker for me.

I don't believe it's WRGT's fault. Dish gets their guide data from Tribune Media Services (they own Zap2It also). How they relate the analog station to the digital station, I don't know, but Zap2It has the proper data online for 45-1 and 45-2. If Dish used PSIP data, I could understand something 'wrong' at WRGT's end, but Dish doesn't do that.Apparently Dayton isn't the only market in which this is happening. Local affiliates must have something to do with it, otherwise the guy in this thread is lying (doubtful) or just doesn't understand the process:

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=94891

I also noticed heywire's post in there, but he hadn't posted anything about the thread here so I figured I would....

Interesting.... and it's also FOX stations for them too. I know that the 622/722 receivers are due for a s/w update to L4.44 so I wonder if it's a two-part fix, 1) get that update first and 2) get the local station to 'reset' something at their end ?

Did anyone happen to watch Bionic Woman last night on WDTN-DT? It seemed to me it had some "ghosting" problems. Kind of the same way during NBC's golf coverage (the ball is putted and you can see a trail). I looked over on the HD Programming forum and in the Bionic Woman thread no one mentioned this, so I'm thinking it might be an affilliate issue.

I also noticed heywire's post in there, but he hadn't posted anything about the thread here so I figured I would....

Ok, this is weird... I DID post here about that thread last night from work, but now I don't see it. I even went as far as to edit the QUOTE tags to quote the guy from the dbstalk forum... oh well... I probably hit "preview" instead of "post"... I forwarded the quote/link to Dish Network last night to see if it is possibly the same issue.. We'll see...

I'm guessing it's related to FOX after all. I don't know the details, but I understand (Jeff can explain better) that FOX affiliates don't control a lot locally and that's it's done at higher levels and the local stations just do a "pass through". There still has to be equipment locally and presumably one of these pieces are to blame.

I'm guessing it's related to FOX after all. I don't know the details, but I understand (Jeff can explain better) that FOX affiliates don't control a lot locally and that's it's done at higher levels and the local stations just do a "pass through". There still has to be equipment locally and presumably one of these pieces are to blame.

I think Roland Martel is the chief engineer over at WRGT/WKEF. I believe Jeff has/had contact information for him, maybe he can get one of us in touch with him or pass along the issue we are having, and maybe things could get fixed a bit quicker then dealing with Dish, if it is indeed an affiliate issue.

Dish gets their guide data from Tribune Media Services (they own Zap2It also). How they relate the analog station to the digital station, I don't know, but Zap2It has the proper data online for 45-1 and 45-2. If Dish used PSIP data, I could understand something 'wrong' at WRGT's end, but Dish doesn't do that.


That's what I thought as well. I only use Dish 311/AT100 w/o locals -- So I can't "compare" the E* guide with what they're sending via PSIP ...

The only sort of "guide/ratings info/etc" being sent by WRGT-DT itself is in the PSIP EIT's (event information tables) -- FCC requires they do this only 12 hours "out"(but depending upon equipment at the station, they can do it for longer periods -- WKOI-DT sends EPG via the EIT's out about a week or so for instance) ... While stations are required to send the EPG info OTA, receivers aren't currently "required" to support it unfortunetly, and many receivers *don't* support it, or don't support it fully.

Many stations have had "issues" regarding sending accurate, and "detailed" program info via the PSIP EIT's so far, but it does seem to be getting steadily better .... FCC has recently asked for comments in a recent rulemaking proceeding just how "detailed" the EPG info provided in the EIT's needs to be ... Detailed program descirptions, or is just "DTV program" enough/etc ...

I don't know the details, but I understand (Jeff can explain better) that FOX affiliates don't control a lot locally and that's it's done at higher levels and the local stations just do a "pass through". There still has to be equipment locally and presumably one of these pieces are to blame.

Basically, at each Fox HD affiliate, Fox has a "splicer" which bypasses the local encoder *only* during Fox programming ... It *could* be done differently at the affiliate, but usually isn't, and This way, the HD is encoded at the network level and you(everyone, no matter what affiliate you're seeing it from) see it just as it is encoded by fox, although it can also support rate shaping for those affiliates that are multicasting, such as WRGT's MyTV subchannel)... They also have it set up so each affiliate has a "locally inserted" bug, but one which is also inserted by the splicer, with the bug insertion "times"/etc. being controlled by Fox ...

Of course, when/if necessary, the local affiliate can "switch out" of the feed from the splicer to the "local" feed, encoded at WRGT, such as during local commercial breaks inserted during network programming.

I think the PSIP (including the guide data from EIT's) info has to be inserted, Locally at all times, otherwise you wouldn't get the info for the FOX programming at times when Fox programming via the "splicer" isn't active(such as the guide info for fox programming tonight as it is currently being transmitted in their PSIP EIT's) ...

---------------------

In any case, I don't know how dish is getting the Guide info for WRGT, for their local or Fox programming, but, unless they *are* using the PSIP info, I'm thinking at this point it probably doesn't have anything to do with what WRGT(or Fox) is sending via WRGT's signal ....

Did anyone happen to watch Bionic Woman last night on WDTN-DT? It seemed to me it had some "ghosting" problems. Kind of the same way during NBC's golf coverage (the ball is putted and you can see a trail). I looked over on the HD Programming forum and in the Bionic Woman thread no one mentioned this, so I'm thinking it might be an affilliate issue.


I DVR'd (with HTPC) Bionic Woman last night, but from WLWT Cincinnati ... I haven't watched it yet, but will let you know if I do see any "ghosting" there when I do watch it ...

I've seen what I'll call weird "color ghosting"(looked like the chroma signals were in "different" places on the screen from where they should be) from NBC HD affiliates before, but it's been a long time ... I definitely remember it happening one time during the HD triple crown races on WKEF-DT(but not WLWT-DT cincinnati) back when they were NBC affiliate ... I think it must have been back in 2002 or 2003 or so ... My memory is really foggy, but *I think* it also *may* have happened once at WDTN-DT soon after they became NBC affiliate and they told me they had to "reset" their encoder to fix it ...

I believe Jeff has/had contact information for him, maybe he can get one of us in touch with him or pass along the issue we are having, and maybe things could get fixed a bit quicker then dealing with Dish, if it is indeed an affiliate issue.

What I would probably suggest at this point is folks having this problem might want to call WRGT/WKEF "main number" during normal business hours and see what they say about it.

As, I don't know at this point if their engineering staff would have anything to do with this particular issue. If so, you can probably get in touch with them if necessary by calling them ....

The info from the thread DBSforums about an affiliate having to "reboot something" seems to perhaps contridict that, but that's not much to go on as it's not only 2nd or 3rd hand information, it involves a different station that may do things "differently", and I know that sometimes what you're told "by the station"(or from E* for that matter) may be more along the lines of them trying to provide a "simple explanation" to the viewing public vs. something that is entirely "accurate".

Anyway, I can't pass along engineers contact info to others, but I can pass along reports/etc. to them, but can't get "in the middle", so to speak so I can no longer relay information from him to the forum, and for that reason it's probably best for folks to contact them "on their own" ....

I Do know the engineer at WKEF/WRGT that usually "takes care" of the digital stations monitors this thread when he has the time, and has told me that "if necessary/possible" he will address the forum directly ....

I DVR'd (with HTPC) Bionic Woman last night, but from WLWT Cincinnati ... I haven't watched it yet, but will let you know if I do see any "ghosting" there when I do watch it ...

I've seen what I'll call weird "color ghosting"(looked like the chroma signals were in "different" places on the screen from where they should be) from NBC HD affiliates before, but it's been a long time ... I definitely remember it happening one time during the HD triple crown races on WKEF-DT(but not WLWT-DT cincinnati) back when they were NBC affiliate ... I think it must have been back in 2002 or 2003 or so ... My memory is really foggy, but *I think* it also *may* have happened once at WDTN-DT soon after they became NBC affiliate and they told me they had to "reset" their encoder to fix it ...


I would've checked WLWT, last night, but I was DVRing via OTA and wasn't able to change OTA channels... If i see the same behavior tonight during The Office, I'll definately switch back and forth...

Anyways, when I mentioned the NBC golf coverage as a comparison to what I saw, I'd like to say, that this "ghosting" also happens on the cable HD feeds of golf when NBC has the weekend coverage (meaning it's network sourced)... (Should be able to check TNT-HD today to see if ghosting happens on the President's Cup)...

Dish HD receivers, at least the DVR-capable ones, do not use PSIP guide data. Among the reasons are 1) it's not always reliable and more importantly 2) it doesn't go far enough in the future to be very useful with a DVR.

Dish HD receivers, at least the DVR-capable ones, do not use PSIP guide data. Among the reasons are 1) it's not always reliable and more importantly 2) it doesn't go far enough in the future to be very useful with a DVR.

IMO, *any* and every ATSC receiver should be *required* to support the PSIP guide data. Stations are required to send it, it seems to me receiver's should be required to support it so it's of some use. On a Dish receiver with OTA HD capabilities, if you subscribe to the locals via the dish, but are using OTA to receive the digital stations, you should be able to select whether you want to use PSIP or the E* guide data, and if you do *not* sub to locals via the dish, if you are receiving stations "off air" you should get the PSIP guide data ...
Again, it's only required 12 hours out, but PSIP data *can* be sent as long as a week ahead of time, perhaps longer. WKOI sends it out that far, now.

The main reasons I think it isn't "reliable" from some stations(not all - WDTN, usually thinkTV and Most of the Cincinnati stations are usually quite reliable from it) currently are because it was something that became "required" very *quickly* and it was a bit *unexpected* by stations, they were unprepared for it, and still are dealing with that. AND, even more importantly *most* receiver's don't support it, or don't support it fully or properly, so *most* people aren't seeing any of the info, anyway.

I don't know how it does it, but my Hisense DB-2010 (OTA only) receiver displays the PSIP info in a "grid" type display (much as you are used to with E*'s EPG), and from what I've seen you don't Have to "tune to each station" to get the info from each station ... I don't use that receiver very much, but I'm guessing it must "tune to" the different stations when it's in "standby mode'/etc. and pick up the info from the different stations, as I don't think it has a 2nd tuner ...

There still has to be equipment locally and presumably one of these pieces are to blame.


What sort of equipment are you "thinking about?" ... Only thing I can think of at this point might be something used to send the info to Tribune(or whoever the EPG provider is now), which very well might be Not "under" WRGT's control ....

Again, PSIP is the only thing "relevant" to EPG info as it pertains to anything Fox or WRGT digital does regarding their digital/HD programming or WRGT-DT signal that is specific to EPG info or your above comments .... So, I don't think there could be any "piece of equipment locally" in this context which could be "to blame" ......

If they have some other sort of "equipment" at the affiliate or that fox uses for whatever method is used so that "ultimately" Dish receives the EPG guide data it is independant from anything having to do with WRGT-DT signal or the Fox "feed" to the station/the splicer/etc, and possibly "indpendant" and out of the control of any personel at the station as well .....

Using a Transport stream analyzer, Follows is list of all the datastreams sent by WRGT-DT. They are all "accounted for", I don't think there is anything in there that can be "seperate EPG info" they would be sending to dish. It's possible, but doubt they are sending any EPG info via any datacasting with their analog signal, either, but I don't know for sure, and if they are they'd have to find some other way to do it past 2/17/09.

0x0000 MPEG-2 Program Assocation Table
0x0030 MPEG-2 PMT for program 3
0x0031 MPEG-2 Video for program 3
0x0034 AC-3 Audio for program 3
0x0040 MPEG-2 PMT for program 4
0x0041 MPEG-2 Video for program 4
0x0044 AC-3 Audio for program 4
0x1d00 ATSC EIT-0
0x1d01 ATSC EIT-1
0x1d02 ATSC EIT-2
0x1d03 ATSC EIT-3
0x1ffb ATSC Base PID (TVCT, MGT, RT, STT)
0x1fff MPEG-2 NULL Packet

Dish HD receivers, at least the DVR-capable ones, do not use PSIP guide data.


I *knew* that in the past(and presumably now as well, as verified by your post), E*/D* haven't used the PSIP data, but really, it is possibile it *could* be done in such a way that the same info via PSIP EPG is the *same* info used by E*/D* EPG .....

I'm only repeating or speculating on what needs to be done based on what was said in the other post from DBSTalk. The issues seem very similar but maybe they're completely unrelated.

My Samsung TS160 got guide data like the Hisense you mentioned. It wasn't very useful.... You had to change to the channel, wait, change to the next channel, wait, and so on. I do think if you tuned to one of WPTD's channels, it got all of the sub-channel's data so that was a bit better.

And back to Dish's HD receivers, I believe their non-DVR ones do use PSIP data. I've also read that DirecTV's HD-DVRs and TiVos that have ATSC tuners do NOT use PSIP data. There's a reason these DVR manufacturers don't use it.

My Samsung TS160 got guide data like the Hisense you mentioned. It wasn't very useful.... You had to change to the channel, wait, change to the next channel, wait, and so on. I do think if you tuned to one of WPTD's channels, it got all of the sub-channel's data so that was a bit better.


No. As I just explained, On the Hisense(remember, these were used by USDTV subs as well), you don't have to change the channel to get all the guide data from all the stations. For instance, I just turned the receiver on, and I press the "channel guide" and programming info/descriptions(when sent concerning the latter) in it's EPG grid from PSIP EIT's show up immediately for *all* stations I receive on it(well in the direction the antenna is aimed), not just one.

Since stations only send their *own* guide data, unless it is using a "2nd tuner" that may not be used for anything else(which is also possible), How it *has* to work is , When the receiver is in "standby", it tunes to all the stations on your list and updates the guide info. And, when you "enter" the guide screen, it also must tune to the other stations your not "currentlY" tuned to in order to update their guide info.


And back to Dish's HD receivers, I believe their non-DVR ones do use PSIP data.


It's been a while, but the last I read anything about it, I think I'd read the 811(at least with some firmware versions) and some earlier HD receivers allowed you, at least in the past to use the PSIP guide data(don't recall if you had an option to use it or the EPG data from the bird, or not), but the newer receiver's didn't. Perhaps that has changed, however.


I've also read that DirecTV's HD-DVRs and TiVos that have ATSC tuners do NOT use PSIP data. There's a reason these DVR manufacturers don't use it.

I use HTPC with ATSC HD "tuner card" as OTA HD DVR. I'm well aware of the "issues" involved. Again, although it is generally not the case currently, there is no reason why, as it pertains to the Off-air signals, that the PSIP "guide info" can't be implemented(including involving the receiver's design) in such as way that it is as detailed+accurate and useful as the EPG info from service providers. Stations are required to provide it, all receivers should be required to support it properly, IMO.

My point is, DVR or no, with *any* ATSC receiver, IMO, you should be able to utilize the PSIP EPG guide data if desired -- I'm not saying it would necessarily be "easy" for the receiver/firmware designers to implement, and not as a means to *replace* the guide info from the provider, but in *addition* to it, as an "option" where desired .... Ideally, I suppose it could be integrated in the provider supplied "guide" In such cases if the info from the provider itself isn't available for a "station" you're receiving OTA ....

If you are receiving/using stations off air signals , *why* might you want to do that?

#1). If your provider requires that you sub to LiL (locals via the dish) in order to get the guide data from them, and you don't "want to" because you receive the stations just fine and can "get by" fine with the program info sent via PSIP .....

#2). If you receive out-of market stations, but your provider has "decided" to provide the guide info via *their* EPG for your "in market" stations. Other than Shantyman's and some other's posts recently, this is the first time I've heard of anything like that, but imagine such a "decision" could be made by such "providers" at any time. Imagine in my case, where I'm "in" Cincinnati market, but only 15 Miles from Downtown Dayton. Obviously, I receive the Dayton signals and "want to see" their programming and guide info as well.

#3). ALL of a digital stations multicast services are not allways carried, and therefore guide info for those multicast "subchannels" may not be provided in their guide info. (not saying they aren't in any given case currently, just saying they *might not* be ....)

#4). You are receiving/watching stations OTA which are not available at all in any form, including their program listings via your service provider .... For instance, we don't have any Digital LP stations in area just yet, but someday soon we should have ... I'm don't know if E*/D* has guide info on them, but some may be interested/ may want to watch some of their programming (WRCX-LP dayton has aired Cleveland Caviliers games for instance) ....

For the past 2 weeks WHIO 7.1 has been displaying a black screen on my Sony DHG-HDD250 DVR. The signal strength is fine, almost 90%. My other 2 tuners are not having a problem with 7.1. Any other Sony DHG owners out there having the same issue?

dfas34,

Have you tried a rescan?

Yep, the channel rescan did the trick. I always forget to give that a try for issues like this.

^ Good! Thanks for reporting back, as I was wondering if it would do the job ...

I do wonder how that sort of thing is going to "work out" concnerning all the current analog OTA viewers out there which haven't upgraded to digital, yet .... Such as those folks that will be getting DTV converter boxes .....

I'm only repeating or speculating on what needs to be done based on what was said in the other post from DBSTalk. The issues seem very similar but maybe they're completely unrelated.


Certianly Could be unrelated, but along those lines, it could be a "clue" as well ...


Dish HD receivers, at least the DVR-capable ones, do not use PSIP guide data.


Part of what I was trying to get at, but I realize now I didn't actually *say it* follows ... This is just *speculation* as well while keeping the posts from DBStalk thread in mind ... Both the MN station and WRGT could be doing the "same thing" regarding getting guide data to dish, but AFAIK, it very well may be via some "other* method that have nothing to do with PSIP ....

But, I would think its possible Dish *could* be using the EPG info a station sends via PSIP EIT's -- Not by supporting the off air PSIP EPG data "at the consumer's receiver" in this case, but instead at the local uplink site. They could then decode the info from WRGT-DT's PSIP and "convert it"/import it into THEIR guide ....

That would also seem to perhaps make sense *IF* they're trying something like that with some stations, such as including say, WRGT-DT and/or say, The Fox affiliate in MN (KMSP - Note they are a Fox O&O station) ....

*IF* they are doing something like that, then the problem some of you are experiening could be at Dish or WRGT, although I don't see anything "technically wrong" with WRGT's PSIP EPG info .......

BUT, what wouldn't seem to make sense from "dish EPG" perspective, and if they are trying to do that is that currently, the EPG info WRGT-DT is sending in PSIP EIT's is only going out about 12 Hours according to TSreader(although again, I've seen stations, such as WKOI send it out as far as 1 week) --- ALSO, I haven't paid much attention recently to WRGT, but I've noticed in the past WRGT (and WKEF) PSIP EPG info has often been inaccurate, probably a little moreso than from most stations in the area ... AND, WRGT isn't currently providing detailed program descriptions in the EIT, generally just a program title ... I'd think NONE of that would seem to suggest it's likely dish would want to use that data from WRGT-DT's PSIP EIT's -- HOWEVER, maybe it's possible this is something "new" they're trying, and perhaps it's a "work in progress" so to speak ...

Here's something "interesting" -- Both WXIX-DT(Fox cincinnati affiliate) and WRGT-DT are running the Cubs at Reds Game, currently. I assume both stations have been running the same game all afternoon, but can't say for sure as I've been doing yard work .... Here's the (seemingly incorrect, btw) data from WRGT-DT's PSIP EIT for the currently running program (Fox) -- :

Starts: 9/29/2007 3:30:00 PM
Length: 03:30:00
EIT Source: n/a
Name: MLB on FOX: Boston @ Chicago WS
Description: n/a
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ATSC Caption Service Descriptor
ATSC Caption Service Descriptor:
Language: eng Format: Captions service 1

---------------------------------------------------

Here's (correct) info on the Same program from WXIX-DT (Fox) Cincinnati's PSIP EIT's :

Starts: 9/29/2007 3:30:00 PM
Length: 03:30:00
EIT Source: n/a
Name: MLB Baseball
Description: Chicago Cubs @ Cincinnati
Descriptor: ATSC AC-3 audio Descriptor
ATSC AC3 Descriptor
Descriptor: ATSC Content Advisory Descriptor
ATSC Content Advisory Descriptor:
Region 1 Rating: None Description: TV-NONE
Descriptor: ATSC Caption Service Descriptor
ATSC Caption Service Descriptor:
Language: eng Format: Captions service 1

---------------------------------------

Note that in WXIX case concerning this program at least, it seems to me it certianly contains enough "program info" for Dish's guide, and if they (or any station) were to send accurate guide info via PSIP EIT's out say to one week ahead(again, like WKOI does last I checked), I would imagine Dish could *use* this info by receiving it from them(the ATSC station) at their local uplink site and convert it(they probably wouldn't use some of the ATSC "desriptors" shown as present in the EIT's in these example) to import/integrate into the Dish EPG ....
-------------------------------------------------------------

Again, all just speculation, FWIW -- without more detailed info from Dish that tells us just exactly what they're doing to get guide data for WRGT programming, probably all we can do is speculate ....

Again, though, as you had mentioned earlier, everything I had heard before was that stations send their programming info to services like Tribune* .... If so and the problem was with the "listings" and not a problem at Dish, or if something was "wrong" at WRGT/etc. regarding sending the "listings provider" the info, I'd think other providers of those listings(stuff like TitanTV or as you mentioned zap2it,etc) that use the same Listings provider would be showing inaccurate info for WRGT as well. and I'd think that ALL dish receivers that aren't using the PSIP info "directly" for off air channels, would also be effected as well. Again, I don't sub to LiL and am using a SD only dish 311 receiver, so I can't check WRGT analog or digital listings from Dish EPG on it ....

* - I do know not too long ago it was tribune Dish was using, at least for the non-local channels, as for a short time there was a "copyright tribune" notice showing up in the guide info ---

I will keep an eye out for the aforementioned DVR issues with Dish. I have disposed of Time Warner and now have a 722 DVR box, but don't have it rigged up for local channels yet. I need to get some co-ax run to it first for antenna pickup to get the local digitals.

Right now I'm just happy that I have ESPN2HD working in time for the OSU game, without the constant hard sell for overpriced VoIP phone service during the breaks.

Good move, 1450. You won't be disappointed, TWC is terrible.

Anyone happen to watch Kanye West's performance on Saturday Night Live on WDTN-DT tonight? Every time they would switch to the head on shot with bright red flashing red lights, the picture would break up as if I had a bad signal issue. Not just pixelation, but I would get breaks in the picture, and even in the audio. WDTN-DT comes in at 93% signal strength and I didn't have any break ups except during the flashing red. Just curious if anyone else saw this...

On a side note, every time I watch an HD show on OTA, going back to the "HD" dish network channels is painful.

I was going to rewind it and see what I saw but the buffer is only 19 minutes... And no, I did NOT change the channel.

I will keep an eye out for the aforementioned DVR issues with Dish. I have disposed of Time Warner and now have a 722 DVR box, but don't have it rigged up for local channels yet. I need to get some co-ax run to it first for antenna pickup to get the local digitals.

Right now I'm just happy that I have ESPN2HD working in time for the OSU game, without the constant hard sell for overpriced VoIP phone service during the breaks.

If you don't want to do another coax run, you can just use diplexers to combine the OTA with the SAT signal... I do this without a problem, and only have one line through my house to each box... at the wall I diplex out and then seperate to feed the dual sat tuners

For those of you with the WRGT-DT guide issue -- I just received a call from James at Dish Network Tech Ops. They contacted WRGT and found out that they changed their TSID. He said that they have corrected the issue (probably on the Dish Network side) and they are seeing the correct data on their side now. I cannot reset my 622 right now (I have shows recording :) ), so if anyone wants to give it a try and report back... James gave me his direct number to call him back if we still cannot get the guide info.

Well, I had a few minutes between the simpsons and family guy to do a full reboot of the 622 and rescan of the locals... unfortunately I am still showing "Digital Service". I'll follow up with James at Dish Network and see what he says... Unfortunately I won't get a chance until tomorrow...

I rebooted too.... Damn things take forever to reacquire signal. Rebooted at 8:55 and missed the start (of recording) for Cold Case and Desperate Housewives. My wife was making annoyed little noises.

Anyway, I've got "Digital Service" for most of my sub-channels now ! Including WHIO's weather channel. I expect that will sort itself out in a bit or so. I'll look in the morning.

Oops .. accidently deleted a post I'd just made about TSID's while editing it ....

Basically, WRGT-DT(digital) is currently sending the following TSID(I think it is the FCC or some other regulatory body which issues TSID's to U.S. broadcast stations, BTW) :

Transport Stream ID: 2280 (0x08e8)

But, this TSID lookup site says WRGT analog is TSID 2280, WRGT digital is TSID 2281 :

http://www.etherguidesystems.com/tools/TsidLookup.aspx

For instance, WKEF digital is sending TSID 2279, which matches what that site says -- Their analog station's TSID should be TSID 2278, digital station TSID 2279 ..

--------------------------------------------------

There is a good article about TSID's and how they "work" for analog+digital stations here :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/Tech-Corner/f-RH-TSID.shtml

----------

FWIW, Now that I have something to go on, I'll send a email/report to WRGT engineer about this and mention the issues you guys are having as well ....

FWIW, I'll send a email/report to WRGT engineer about this and mention the issues you guys are having I e-mailed Roland 3-4 days ago with a pretty detailed explanation, including links to threads here, DBSTalk, and possibly Satguys. No reply, no acknowledgement, nothing....

^ I don't think he reads email very much ...

Like I said before, best suggestion I can provide regarding contacting them is to call their main switchboard during normal business hours+either ask to be transferred to engineering and/or if necessary explain the issue to whoever answers the phone+have them decide who you should talk to ... I can't guarentee you'll be succesful with that either, as those guys are very busy .....

I sent email to the guy there that usually handles the digital station and issues involved, their Asst DOE ... I can call him as well, but in this case I'm not going to as it doesn't seem appropriate as it isn't an issue that is effecting any of my equipment, or causing any problems for me, and therefore I can't provide much info to him about it ....

Update:

*Do* keep in mind this is really probably an issue that should be addressed among Dish network and WRGT (or any other station having such issues involving E* guide), not viewers and WRGT ....

My 622 is still listing "Digital Service" for WRGT and MyTV. This is after the overnight reboot and guide download/update too. The other sub-channels do have data now.

Ok, so I just talked to James at Dish Network again. He is going to send this back to engineering to have them contact WRGT engineering again. The TSID is definitely the issue here. He said that when they contacted them before, WRGT didn't seem to understand the significance of changing their TSID number...???

Nitewatchman: Can you take a look and verify that WRGT is still transmitting the 2280 TSID?

Nitewatchman: Can you take a look and verify that WRGT is still transmitting the 2280 TSID?

Yes, still at 2280 currently. I'll keep an eye on it when I can and post if/when I notice it changes.

It's just a guess as I'm not familiar with the details concerning how Dish network EPG "works", but I'm guessing the TSID the station is sending has to "match" what their "list" of station TSID's says for the EPG to work on a receiver using the off-air signals, and/or, the TSID for the digital station can't "match" the TSID for the analog station, since Dish (i assume) would provide EPG listings for both WRGT analog and digital. (45 analog, 45.1 and maybe 45.2 digital), AND/OR, perhaps the TSID info has to be present in the PSIP VCT along the lines of my next comments ....


------------------------------------------------------------------

In addition to the TSID # shown by TSreader in MPEG2 PSI(note: PSI is MPEG 2 program specific information, not PSIP) PAT (program association table) --- I have also noticed from most stations, TSreader gives the following information on TSID, that it shows is located in, or "related to" PSIP VCT(virtual channel table), including in the following case from WKEF ... note that, WKEF/WRGT are co-located and owned operated by the same company, and the SAME engineers take care/work on both stations :

TSID: 2279 (0x08e7) NTSC: 22 ATSC: 51 OH DAYTON

But, All I show from WRGT in either PAT or VCT is the following TSID info :

TSID: 2280 (0x08e8)

-------------------------------

BTW, I received a reply from WRGT engineer on this. I think it's OK to pass this along -- They say they're working on handling the issue.

Yes, still at 2280 currently. I'll keep an eye on it when I can and post if/when I notice it changes.

It's just a guess as I'm not familiar with the details concerning how Dish network EPG "works", but I'm guessing the TSID the station is sending has to "match" what their "list" of station TSID's says for the EPG to work on a receiver using the off-air signals, and/or, the TSID for the digital station can't "match" the TSID for the analog station, since Dish (i assume) would provide EPG listings for both WRGT analog and digital. (45 analog, 45.1 and maybe 45.2 digital), AND/OR, perhaps the TSID info has to be present in the PSIP VCT along the lines of my next comments ....


------------------------------------------------------------------

In addition to the TSID # shown by TSreader in MPEG2 PSI(note: PSI is MPEG 2 program specific information, not PSIP) PAT (program association table) --- I have also noticed from most stations, TSreader gives the following information on TSID, that it shows is located in, or "related to" PSIP VCT(virtual channel table), including in the following case from WKEF ... note that, WKEF/WRGT are co-located and owned operated by the same company, and the SAME engineers take care/work on both stations :

TSID: 2279 (0x08e7) NTSC: 22 ATSC: 51 OH DAYTON

But, All I show from WRGT in either PAT or VCT is the following TSID info :

TSID: 2280 (0x08e8)

-------------------------------

BTW, I received a reply from WRGT engineer on this. I think it's OK to pass this along -- They say they're working on handling the issue.

As always Jeff, thanks for the information -- and for following up on this with their engineer. I have to say, I learn something just about every time you make a post!

Anyone having problems with 7-1 WHIO-DT? I have a D* HR20 and I haven't been able to see 7-1 lately. On the signal meter I get 100% quality, but no picture or sound. The other stations have been doing fine so it seems. Did a reboot and resetup the antenna, but no luck. Any ideas? Thanks.

Did a reboot and resetup the antenna, but no luck. Any ideas?

Did you try a channel rescan as well? See here and the two posts immediately before it :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11765708#post11765708

Did you try a channel rescan as well? See here and the two posts immediately before it :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11765708#post11765708

AFAIK there is no rescan option on the HR20. You can do antenna setup where it will re-download the channel info. I did that and it didnt work.

^ Huh. Interesting. Would have thought what you're describing as "antenna setup" would have probably worked --- Assuming the "antenna setup" doesn't just involve info "re-downloaded" from DirecTV ...

WHIO-DT apparently made some changes recently regarding how their program streams are "formatted"(to say it in a "non-technical" way), which may require some receivers to "replace" the info they save when they first "scan in" or receive the channel OTA, as the "old" info that at some time in the past that was "previously" received from WHIO-DT and saved by the receiver is probably no longer relevant. In my experience, some OTA Only receivers "update" that sort of info everytime you "tune" to each station, others only update/save it during a "channel scan".

This involves information the station is sending, OTA, that is normally "handled" by the receiver from the OTA signals --- not something that would probably be coming from DirecTV off the satellite (such as the channel info from the D* EPG info) -- But, Whether or not DirecTV needs to change some info they're sending regarding changes WHIO made, I have no idea.

Suppose it's also possible changes WHIO-DT made are causing problems with your receiver model, regardless of the above, all I can offer there is I'm not having any problems with them+my receivers(all of them are OTA only and none of them are D* or HR20 receivers) ..

In any case, probably likely someone using a HR20 can provide you with better info/reports on whether they're having the problem or not ...

Anyone having problems with 7-1 WHIO-DT? I have a D* HR20 and I haven't been able to see 7-1 lately. On the signal meter I get 100% quality, but no picture or sound. The other stations have been doing fine so it seems. Did a reboot and resetup the antenna, but no luck. Any ideas? Thanks.

If you take your antenna feed straight into your TV, do you get a picture on 7-1? I have no problems with here on an E* 622.

Looks like Time Warner is going to add TBS-HD in time for the playoffs tomorrow. It is now showing up on the guide on channel 752 but so far there is no picture. So hopefully they are getting it ready to turn on for tomorrow.

I noticed the same thing -- TBS-HD on 752 but no picture. I'm just glad they are finally adding more HD channels.

I have had a feed from TBS HD since about 1900 today in the Dayton-South region. All of it in stretched-to-fit glory.

But the name is TBS HD. That's all that matters.... TBS can say "we've got an HD channel now" and TWC can say "after many years of the same lackluster HD lineup, we've added TBS HD for our customers to enjoy".

;)

It would seem that Dish Network is taking the DT signal, downconverting to SD, then uplinking to the satellite. I was seeing both on satellite (SD) and OTA (digital/HD channel) the Jets vs Patriots while browerjs was seeing over TWC in SD the Browns game. As soon as the digital channel switched over to the Browns the satellite version switched as well.

Which leads me to this question... is this legal? Also makes me wonder if Dayton will be getting its locals uplinked sooner rather than later if they are already taking the ATSC signal.


This is definately happening. Last night I watched my DVR'd episode of "Two and a Half Men" from monday night recorded from the satellite feed (SD). I noticed right away that the rating was cut off in the upper left corner, then in the bottom right i could see the CBS-HD logo twirling around (although it was cut off)... I wonder if any of the other dayton locals are doing this?

If Dish is getting a digital feed vs an analog feed from a local station, it's the local station who's providing it so they must be okay with it.

If Dish is getting a digital feed vs an analog feed from a local station, it's the local station who's providing it so they must be okay with it.

It'll be interesting come NCAA tourney time and the Masters, when they multicast.

can anyone verify that the qam 114.1 (discovery) has now been scrambled or moved?.. because it is now gone as of 10/02/07

114.1 is gone here too (TWC Sidney area).

But the name is TBS HD. That's all that matters.... TBS can say "we've got an HD channel now" and TWC can say "after many years of the same lackluster HD lineup, we've added TBS HD for our customers to enjoy".

Man, you guys are a tough crowd. ;) No, TBS-HD doesn't have a lot of programming in HD right now, but at least we are getting additional programming. Besides, right now, the point of TBS-HD is the baseball playoffs, not Seinfeld reruns in HD.

Even most of the HD channels we have now on TWC are nowhere near 24/7 HD. So I'll continue to pester TWC to add HD, and also pester the networks themselves to increase their HD content.

Maybe I'm too easily pleased. :shrugs:

Anyway, anybody getting audio dropouts right now on TBS-HD? It's annoyingly frequent right now.

I also have not been able to receive 7-1 (OTA WHIO-HD) for the last two or more weeks. Specifically, I can receive the video but not the audio channel. I have reset and rescanned all channels on my Hitachi Ultravision LCD projection TV several times, but still can't get audio. All other channels are fine. I even unplugged the TV for 24 hours to see if I could "hard reset" it to factory defaults, but no luck.

I'm starting to wonder whether Hitachi has a bug in their firmware.

I also have not been able to receive 7-1 (OTA WHIO-HD) for the last two or more weeks. Specifically, I can receive the video but not the audio channel. I have reset and rescanned all channels on my Hitachi Ultravision LCD projection TV several times, but still can't get audio. All other channels are fine. I even unplugged the TV for 24 hours to see if I could "hard reset" it to factory defaults, but no luck.

I'm starting to wonder whether Hitachi has a bug in their firmware.

Does your TV have any kind of "audio" button to switch between audio feeds?

Can you get 7-2 ?

What kind of audio output options does your TV have ? I presume you get audio on all other local OTA channels.

Yes, I can receive 7-2 (video and audio) and I have audio on all other OTA channels. My audio options are:

Audio Source: Stereo, Mono, SAP (Set to Stereo)
Digital Output: Dolby Digital, PCM (Set to DD)
DRC: Off, On (Set On)

I can also set Output Terminals, in which I have
Video Out: Monitor, TV Tuner Out (Set to Monitor)
Audio Out: Fixed, Variable (Set to Fixed)

I suspect what heywire is reffering to is that some stations send multiple audio tracks(for instance, one could be english language and one spanish or even could be "blank" or non-decodable, even) per program service("subchannel"), and there is usually some sort of menu option on your TV/STB that allows you to switch between them. WPTD-DT for instance sends 2 audio tracks per program service. But, currently, WHIO-DT is only sending one audio track per program service, so you wouldn't have a "list" of two or more audio tracks to "switch between" from them, anyway.

I also have not been able to receive 7-1 (OTA WHIO-HD) for the last two or more weeks. Specifically, I can receive the video but not the audio channel. I have reset and rescanned all channels on my Hitachi Ultravision LCD projection TV several times, but still can't get audio. All other channels are fine. I even unplugged the TV for 24 hours to see if I could "hard reset" it to factory defaults, but no luck.

I'm starting to wonder whether Hitachi has a bug in their firmware.

I suspect the problems you, and perhaps brianrt as well are having decoding WHIO-DT streams properly, and others with other receivers aren't having a problem(or aren't having a problem after a "rescan") may indeed involve how your receivers are designed to handle such issues as properly identifying and "selecting" program streams, Along with something WHIO-DT is doing currently :

Currently, WHIO-DT is sending some MPEG2 PSI (program specific information) for a 3rd program service(subchannel), but they aren't sending PSIP info for it, nor are they sending any video/audio streams for that 3rd program service. I don't know how long they've been doing this, but I'd guess it started the same time you guys started having problems.

I don't know of anything that is "wrong" with what WHIO-DT is doing here, but I do know some receivers can get "confused" if PSIP info isn't sent for program streams, even inactive ones(such as this 3rd program service is, currently).

Attached zip file is html output file from TSreader. In the PAT(program assocation table), you'll see info on 3 program services(subchannels) listed, WHIO-HD, WHIO-SD (7.1+7.2 virtual channels), and the third stream ...

You'll also see that 3rd stream listed in the PMT(program map table), with info that describes video/audio streams that *might* be present(but that are not) ... The PMT info for this third stream is also contained within a datastream of it's own at PID 0x0050, which you'll find in the "PID usage list" near bottom ... Note that while the PMT stream is "there" and using a *very small* bit of bandwidth, the video/audio streams for the stream (which would be at 0x0051 video+PCR, 0x0054 audio,) aren't actually There, currently ...

You'll also notice that 7.1+7.2 and the elementary audio/video streams for them are 'described' in the VCT(virtual channel table) info, but there is no info there on this third program service .. VCT is PSIP table where the virtual channel remapping "occurs" ...

Note: Also, the last time I checked it(last night) before this it was "OK" but notice currently even though the EIT's are "there" in the transport stream, currently the EIT's aren't "working" properly, and therefore the EPG info via PSIP EIT's isn't being sent properly by them, currently, and that's why the EPG info isn't showing up in this file ....

While It's possible this "third" program service could be for a 3rd "subchannel" they haven't completely "added" yet, It's also possible it may be a "leftover", as I don't recall, but I think they did have 7.1 and 7.2 streams set up as follows, with the "first" MPEG2 program # for WHIO-HD being "program 3" instead of "program 1" as it is now :

Program 3 - (PID at 0x0030) - WHIO-HD (7.1)
Program 4 - (PID at 0x0040) - WHIO-SD (7.2)

Now, it's like this :

PMT PID 48 (0x0030) - Program 1 WHIO-HD
PMT PID 64 (0x0040) - Program 2 WHIO-SD
PMT PID 80 (0x0050) - Program 3


Beginning in early 2005, because of what they called "international coordination issues, FCC began requiring stations to put their first Program related data at PID address of 0x0030 or higher .... Before that, most stations had their first program # at 0x0010, and they used MPEG program #1 for it .... Since then, some stations have had the equipment/setup to allow them to use "program #1" for the first program service at PID 0x0030, but Many stations have been using 'program #3' for the first program stream at PID 0x0030 ..... I wish I would have paid more attention, but I think until very recently(perhaps possibly only 2 or 3 weeks ago), WHIO-DT had it set up like that as well, in which case the "program 3" info we're seeing now may just be the "old" info that hasn't been "cleared out yet" .....

I know that's a little complicated, hope it's clear enough+that it "makes some sense" ....

I *do* think it might be useful for those experiencing this issue should probably call WHIO and report the issue+what receiver model(TV if integerated ATSC tuner) to them ... Although the problems your having are probably not really WHIO's "fault", still, they may be able to "fix it" ...

I've been with TWC for 4+ years now, and I've been on my current package for at least 2.

That package is:
digipic 2000
hdtv tier
hbo
cinemax
2 HD DVRs
road runner internet

And I've been paying ~$150/month after taxes.

With their new Aug 29 channel lineup, I noticed that TNT HD and ESPN2 HD, which I was previously getting, were removed. TNT HD came up gray, ESPN2 HD said I was not subscribed.

TWC sent out a couple of techs to check it out - no signal problems, receivers were reset, no change - so they got on the phone with the office, and were told that because of the new package lineup, I could not get those 2 channels back without updating my packages. It's rather silly, considering that the HDTV standard tier consists of Discovery HD, TNT HD, ESPN HD, and ESPN2 HD, yet Discovery HD and ESPN HD still come in just fine for me. I'm just missing the TNT HD and ESPN2 HD.

Apparently "grandfathering" no longer means what it use to mean.

I just called the local TWC office to confirm this. The csr confirmed to me that if I wanted TNT HD and ESPN2 HD back, she'd have to upgrade my older packages to a newer packages, which would increase my bill by an extra $20/month.

Just to make sure I heard her correctly, I asked the following question, which went like this:Me: "Let me get this straight: I was paying $150/month before September, which included TNT HD and ESPN2 HD, and now I'm paying $150/month without TNT HD and ESPN2 HD, and in order to get same selection of channels I had before, you want to charge me an extra $20 a month?"

CSR: "Yes, that's correct."

Me: "Thanks, just wanted to get that straight."
[click]

So, long story short, TWC is dicking me over and I'm contemplating switching to directv. Directv already has a big leg up in that I could finally get NBC in HD, and NFL network and the big 10 network, but according to the website, if I wanted to get the same setup I had at TWC (2 HD DVRs, HBO/cinemax, etc.) it'd cost me about the same per month, but with a $500 startup cost! Is that right?

What's the deal with the DVRs? I have to pay for them up front, instead of renting them from the provider? Do I end up owning them?

That's SOP for Time Warner. The benefit of being "grandfathered" in with them is your rates stay pretty consistent (small % increases per year maybe). The downside is, if *you* want to make *any* change whatsoever, you lose. Any change takes you out of your grandfathered rate plan. Many of us have been through the same thing with TWC.....

So, long story short, TWC is dicking me over and I'm contemplating switching to directv. Directv already has a big leg up in that I could finally get NBC in HD, and NFL network and the big 10 network, but according to the website, if I wanted to get the same setup I had at TWC (2 HD DVRs, HBO/cinemax, etc.) it'd cost me about the same per month, but with a $500 startup cost! Is that right?

What's the deal with the DVRs? I have to pay for them up front, instead of renting them from the provider? Do I end up owning them?

You actually wouldn't get NBC-HD via DirectTV, you would have to get it OTA via an antenna (but the boxes have an OTA tuner built in) which will give you the ability to DVR.

I recently switched from TWC to Dish Network, which doesn't have any start up costs.

That's SOP for Time Warner. The benefit of being "grandfathered" in with them is your rates stay pretty consistent (small % increases per year maybe). The downside is, if *you* want to make *any* change whatsoever, you lose. Any change takes you out of your grandfathered rate plan. Many of us have been through the same thing with TWC.....

Yah, I was hoping that grandfathering would also include having my channel lineup staying the same. Otherwise they can just keep taking channels away from me for the same monthly bill.

You actually wouldn't get NBC-HD via DirectTV, you would have to get it OTA via an antenna (but the boxes have an OTA tuner built in) which will give you the ability to DVR.

I recently switched from TWC to Dish Network, which doesn't have any start up costs.

Yah, well I don't have a HD tuner built into my tv so having OTA HD via the directv box is just fine for me.

I was considering Dish until I found out about their strange hd dvr scheme - 1 HD DVR supports 2 tvs, but only 1 HD and the other in SD. If I wanted a 2nd HD DVR, it cost me another $549. So that's pretty unacceptable in my book. Both my roommate and I want our own HD DVRs.

Yes, still at 2280 currently. I'll keep an eye on it when I can and post if/when I notice it changes.

It's just a guess as I'm not familiar with the details concerning how Dish network EPG "works", but I'm guessing the TSID the station is sending has to "match" what their "list" of station TSID's says for the EPG to work on a receiver using the off-air signals, and/or, the TSID for the digital station can't "match" the TSID for the analog station, since Dish (i assume) would provide EPG listings for both WRGT analog and digital. (45 analog, 45.1 and maybe 45.2 digital), AND/OR, perhaps the TSID info has to be present in the PSIP VCT along the lines of my next comments ....


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In addition to the TSID # shown by TSreader in MPEG2 PSI(note: PSI is MPEG 2 program specific information, not PSIP) PAT (program association table) --- I have also noticed from most stations, TSreader gives the following information on TSID, that it shows is located in, or "related to" PSIP VCT(virtual channel table), including in the following case from WKEF ... note that, WKEF/WRGT are co-located and owned operated by the same company, and the SAME engineers take care/work on both stations :

TSID: 2279 (0x08e7) NTSC: 22 ATSC: 51 OH DAYTON

But, All I show from WRGT in either PAT or VCT is the following TSID info :

TSID: 2280 (0x08e8)

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BTW, I received a reply from WRGT engineer on this. I think it's OK to pass this along -- They say they're working on handling the issue.


Ok, I just received the following email from James at Dish Network:


Shaun,

I just brought this up in the weekly engineering conference. The engineer working on the problem says he’s left three more messages on voicemail at the TV station but can’t get any response. His last call was a couple of hours ago. Nobody picks up. The last time somebody at the station did talk to him, they said the issue would be corrected last week.

Are you still seeing the EPG info mapping problem and wrong TSID?


Jeff,

Can you do us a favor and verify the TSID again? Any chances on letting your contact at the station know that Dish is unable to get a hold of them?

Thanks!

Yah, well I don't have a HD tuner built into my tv so having OTA HD via the directv box is just fine for me.

I was considering Dish until I found out about their strange hd dvr scheme - 1 HD DVR supports 2 tvs, but only 1 HD and the other in SD. If I wanted a 2nd HD DVR, it cost me another $549. So that's pretty unacceptable in my book. Both my roommate and I want our own HD DVRs.

I think they are now starting to allow multiple DVRs http://www.satelliteguys.us/1052260-post7.html this says existing customers only, but you'd probably be able to get one HD DVR and one HD receiver at installation and then just pay the $99 dishin' it up promotion a few days later and get the second DVR... Ask about it over at satellite guys as you'll probably get better responses...

Jeff,

Can you do us a favor and verify the TSID again?
Thanks!

as of 4:45pm EDT 10/4 from WRGT-DT it's Still :

Transport Stream ID: 2280 (0x08e8)


Any chances on letting your contact at the station know that Dish is unable to get a hold of them?


sorry, think I've done about all I can ... I will PM you with some add'l info, though ...

ZaijiaN ,

That sucks about your deal with TWC. If you give them a call, you could probably work a deal with them. Two years ago I called and negotiated a $30/month discount and when that expired a few months ago, I called back and negotiated a $25/month discount. Actually, negotiated is probably not the right word because it was ridiculously easy. I just called the 800 number and selected the option on their menu to talk to some one about 'downsizing or disconnecting'. I simply told them I thought I was paying too much for cable and they immediately offered the discount.

The monthly bill for my services was about $118/month, and after calling them I now am only paying $92/month for the next year. You can bet I'll be calling again when it expires (the first time I did this, the deal was supposed to expire after a year, but it didn't expire for about 2 years).

ZaijiaN ,

That sucks about your deal with TWC. If you give them a call, you could probably work a deal with them. Two years ago I called and negotiated a $30/month discount and when that expired a few months ago, I called back and negotiated a $25/month discount. Actually, negotiated is probably not the right word because it was ridiculously easy. I just called the 800 number and selected the option on their menu to talk to some one about 'downsizing or disconnecting'. I simply told them I thought I was paying too much for cable and they immediately offered the discount.

The monthly bill for my services was about $118/month, and after calling them I now am only paying $92/month for the next year. You can bet I'll be calling again when it expires (the first time I did this, the deal was supposed to expire after a year, but it didn't expire for about 2 years).

The problem with "negotiating" with them now is that they want you to bundle everything before giving you a deal (Phone/Roadrunner/TV). I really tried to get a better deal from TWC before switching to Dish, but I was in the same boat as ZaijiaN, being grandfathered in, and the only way i could get a better deal was to switch from Earthlink to Roadrunner (didn't want to change my email addy), and get Digital Phone (which i wouldn't have had a problem with, because I already have VOIP with Lingo, but TWC can't touch my 14.99 a month with 500 minutes that I get with Lingo)...