Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 2

Nitewatchman

02-21-03, 02:58 PM

Scaper,

Welcome to AVS, looks like you've got the situation pretty much pinned for Dayton. However, generally, WKEF-DT is really the only one(knock on wood)of the 3 doing HD in Dayton from which we lose the HD occasionally. WPTD-DT 58 (PBS) Dayton should be on the air beginning of May.

As for Cincy, WXIX-DT 29(Fox) Does Fox Widescreen(480p - Upconverted at WXIX to 1080i) --- Sometimes, they don't do it right, though and we end up with "weirdscreen" instead. Currently, WXIX-DT is on the air only during prime time, and sometimes on Weekends when Fox Widescreen is available. WSTR-DT 33(WB) Only Does SD at present. PBS wise, WCET-DT 34 Cincy does PBS HD, currently, 15 hours per day of it, but they are currently at low power(7 KW ERP) and might be difficult to pull in from Beavercreek, at least until they go Full power, which is currently planned for mid-march.

There is also another PBS/KET station in N KY, WCVN-DT 24, but it would probably be difficult to pull in from Beavercreek, as its tower is a lower one than the other Cincy stations and it's a few miles further south.

The Cincy ABC(WCPO-DT 10), NBC(WLWT-DT 35), CBS(WKRC-DT 31) stations all do an excellent job providing Network HD. These, or the Dayton stations make for a good backup should something go wrong at one or the other stations. WKRC-DT 31(CBS) also has Parmount's HD One Movie Package, once a month on Friday's at 8pm. "Ferris Bueller's Day off" was in HD last Friday. The last couple of years, they have also done a local production of WEBN/Riverfest Fireworks in HD. One "fly in the ointment" for you may be WBNS 10 Columbus analog, which may put enough signal into your location to make WCPO-DT 10 Reception difficult.

For more Cincy Info, Check out the Feb 2003 Cincinnati thread here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=221488

(Note: Past Month's threads can be very useful as well)

Anyhow, from Beavercreek, you'll never know what you'll be able to pull in with a decent outdoor setup until you try(Being on a hill, or relatively high spot instead of down in a valley would be a good thing for you too), but, in addition to Cincinnati Stations, Some of the Columbus stations may be within range as well. WWHO-DT 46 Columbus/Chillocothe(UPN+WB) may especially be a good target for you, since I believe they DO have WB HD+ Paramount's HDOne Movies.

Hope this helps,

gindie

02-21-03, 09:45 PM

Scaper -

Regarding Time Warner - I understand that they have recently started carrying WRGT-DT and WKEF-DT on channels 745 and 722, respectively.

toshman

02-25-03, 02:26 PM

I posted this reply from the VP of Marketing TWC in another thread. Here is the link. More HD channels on the way.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=1921717#post1921717

Nitewatchman

02-28-03, 09:33 PM

No HD from WKEF-DT for "Mr Sterling" tonight, It was in HD via WLWT-DT Cincinnati.

WXIX-DT Cincy has the Baywatch movie in Fox Widescreen, WRGT-DT Dayton, of course(since they only DO 4x3 SD -- All the time!) does not.

WKRC-DT(Cincy) was 22 minutes late in switching to HD for the Springsteen show tonight, WHIO-DT still has letterboxed SD upconvert.

I'm really glad I'm not "stuck" with just the Dayton stations :-)

acs236

03-01-03, 06:13 AM

How frustrating... Hypothetically, is there harm in ALWAYS keeping HD on? I mean, sure it might have an ill effect on SD material, but there's always the analog station for that.

Paul210

03-01-03, 07:14 AM

They lost me as a viewer when Springsteen wasn't in HD. :(

Nitewatchman

03-01-03, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by acs236
Hypothetically, is there harm in ALWAYS keeping HD on?

WCET-DT (PBS Cincy) Currently does just that(when they are on the air, 8am-11pm), but, PBS feeds them HD/Widescreen programming 24 hours a day over the PBS HD Sat feed, the other networks don't.

It really shouldn't be THAT big of a deal for stations with the necessary equipment for HD Passthrough to properly do the switching to(and from) HD when it is available from the network, even if the switching is done manually, which the last I heard is the case at least for WKEF-DT. The only station I know for sure at the present time that has automated switching to and from HD(and automated switching/insertion of local ads during HD programming) is WLWT-DT Cincinnati.

Nevertheless, here are a couple of the problems involved with leaving the HD feed from the network switched "on" all of the time :

1.) Soon, a requirement from FCC goes into affect which requires a digital station to simulcast a certian percentage of their analog programming, the precentage goes up to 100% before 2006. I think this is an issue FCC will be reviewing soon, however. Granted, this shouldn't be a problem for the stations running a simulcast of their analog station in 4x3 on their 2nd subchannel. However, for those with TWC that would probably(for the time being at least) just be getting the main subchannel from the digital, if upconverted programming weren't shown, then all TWC would get from the digital stations would pretty much be a blank screen/test pattern/etc except during the times when HD programming was being shown.

2.) Most stations (understandably!) want/need to insert local ad spots into HD programming anyhow, which requires switching between SD/HD sources.

It's very frustrating and a real PITA, but about the only thing we can do (besides switching channels) is call/contact the station and ask them for HD when it is supposed to be there, and remind them we notice, when it isn't there. It's a silly way to do things IMO, as they should do it right if there is even a CHANCE that 1 person is watching(which is always the case I'd think), but if they don't get any calls when they "mess up", they often don't think anyone is watching, or that anyone cares. They certianly should know better by now though!

Hopefully, someday their will be so many of us watching, and calling them when they mess up they'll finally get the idea that they HAVE to get it right.

Sometimes, the Networks mess up at a higher level, or an affiliate can have difficultly with the feed. But, Luckily, there are often "on time, On demand" threads in the programming area at AVSforum(there is one on "The Boss" on CBS last night), where you can see if folks in other areas of the country are getting HD -- This helps us when the stations tell us "The Network didn't send that in HD/etc --- as we know better!" Also, most of us with OTA around here can pull in Dayton and Cincinnati stations, and can usually see what is going on. It's actually rare that both network affiliates in both Cities miss the HD ... Bruce last night being the first exception I've seen in a long, long time where stations from both cities missed the HD.

acs236

03-02-03, 10:14 AM

Nitewatchman,

When you notice that HD is off when it should be on and you call the particular station, do you just call the general number? Or are there direct or alternate lines that you now know to call?

Nitewatchman

03-02-03, 10:26 AM

Yes, you can call the general number(or newsroom since there is usually allways someone there) and ask to be transferred to master control(or engineering), if that doesn't work, just tell whomever answers that there should be HD on the digital station but it isn't there.

Thanks,

Nitewatchman

03-03-03, 12:06 PM

Hmm. this is odd. At 11:50a, noticed that I wasn't getting a signal from WKEF-DT on 51, so, on a whim, I tuned an analog tuner to 51, and I'm getting the "Shop at Home Network" from a analog station from the direction of Dayton! Haven't seen an ID as of yet, but my guess is it is WRCX-LP Dayton, which was displaced from 51 when WKEF-DT hit the airwaves. WRCX-LP has a Construction Permit from FCC to move to Channel 40, but they've yet to show up there.

WRCX-LP has also recently had a "Remain Silent Authority" for Channel 51 "Accepted for Filing" by FCC on 2/28/2003 ....Perhaps there is some testing going on of adjacent channel issues/etc, but, it Doesn't appear as if they are remaining silent on 51 currently!

Nitewatchman

03-03-03, 06:24 PM

This makes NO sense! ID of WRCX-LP 51 Dayton confirmed(scrolling ID at 54 minutes past each hour). See screenshot below. WRCX-LP has been on the air on channel 51 since before noon today. I've sent messages to WKEF, WKEF's Chief engineer, and Sinclair with no response so far, I'll post if I hear anything. If they are trying to Share 51 with the 2 stations on the air at different times, I don't think that is a very good idea! It will really mess up some of our tuners/DTV receivers, since (at least the DTC100) will default to NTSC analog and stay there until a channel rescan if a analog signal is received.

Paul210

03-04-03, 08:52 AM

I'm curious what TWC viewers are getting on 722 which is/was WKEF-DT.

Nitewatchman

03-04-03, 11:05 AM

Paul,

I'd like to hear from the TWC folks concerning 722 as well. My "guess" would be that WKEF sends their signal, or has a backup to the TWC Dayton's head end By fiber or microwave.

I've been thinking about it, and although there are a lot of scenerios I can think of, one possibility is that there is probably some sort of issue that is currently "requiring" WRCX-LP to be on the air, and the two stations have some sort of agreement, at least until WRCX can get moved to 40. Or, I suppose WKEF-DT could have had some sort of Maintenence/upgrade planned, which is giving WRCX a chance to get on the air for a while.

Without any facts, just a lot of speculation is all I can do, unless someone will tell us what is going on! I realize there could be a "sticky" issue involved with this, but, the fact that noone at the stations is telling us what is going on, and that there is no info on it at FCC site/etc currently, or in the Media AFAIK, are what is bugging me about this, and especially so since Sinclair is a company who supposedly is interested in serving OTA viewers.

So, also, if anyone knows what is going on, please post and let us know.

buckeye1010

03-04-03, 11:37 AM

I received an email back from Roland Martel at WKEF, saying that they had some parts fail and that the parts were overnighted and they will be back up this afternoon. I did tell Mr Martel about the analog LP signal present on ch 51. I'll let you know what he says! FYI, the email address I used was: rmartel@sbgnet.com - I got that as a "technical concerns or questions" email address from the nbc22.com website. It's nice to get a reply from these guys for a change!

Nitewatchman

03-04-03, 01:35 PM

Buckeye,

Thanks for the info, and would appreciate any further info you can provide. Good to see they've added Roland's(WKEF/WRGT Chief engineer) email address to the website, that should be an Excellent place for us to direct comments. Roland has been very helpful and informative in the past to my inquiries(I posted quite a bit of info from him much earlier in this thread), but lately I haven't heard anything back from him, or the station.

Anyhow, I sent him a screenshot(to that email address) of WRCX-LP during ID Yesterday, Kinda Makes me wonder if WRCX-LP has been broadcasting for quite a while, but, WKEF-DT is just "covering them up" when they are on the air! LOL. WRCX-LP is still on the air presently, so, if they are still on the air at the time, it will be interesting to see what happens when WKEF-DT comes back on the air, although I would *think* it might cause some sort of interference issue, at least for some, for both stations to be on at the same time!

Thanks again,

Nitewatchman

03-04-03, 04:16 PM

WKEF-DT is back on the air as of 4:03pm. I also just received a reply from Roland Martel, which contained the same info as Buckeye had posted ... However, he also said that he notified WRCX that they could go on the air for the time that WKEF-DT was off the air.

He did apologize for taking so long to answer my inquiry, but I don't mind, I'd rather that he be getting the station back up and running rather than answering my emails ;-)

It was odd though to see another Dayton station using 51 while WKEF-DT was off air!

Nitewatchman

03-04-03, 09:27 PM

First, the good news, A quick check shows WKEF-DT has HD "right off the bat" at 9pm for Fraiser tonight! Way to Go WKEF-DT! They even made it through the first local ad insert without too much disaster! Anyhow, They do, after all deserve some credit every now and then, being that they were the 2nd Digital station on the air in Dayton, and even came on Early for the Month of February 2002 in order to give us the HD Olympics.

Now the bad news ... While WHIO-DT did have JAG in HD at 8, they are back to upconverted SD for at least the first 17 minutes of part II of the "Salem Witch Trials", WKRC-DT, CBS Cincy has the Movie in HD.

Certianly, I know better, but, I was about to say, if only WRGT-DT would do Fox Widescreen, and, if WBDT-DT would do WB HD, and when WPTD-DT makes it to the air with PBS HD on 5/1/2003 we'll be set for OTA HD(and Fox widescreen) in Dayton -- Although, it certianly would be nice also if we had a UPN Digital station in Dayton -- Or even Cincinnati for that matter.

Nitewatchman

03-09-03, 05:22 PM

It's been a while since I've aimed the antenna towards Oxford, however, I see that WKOI-DT 39 (TBN) has changed the ATSC format they are sending! Now, they are using a 16x9 ATSC format(Seems like it's either 1080i, 720p or 480p, and, they are stretching 4x3 to Fit 16x9 --- Yuck!

Does TBN have HD or widescreen plans? That would certianly be a big surprise.

It's still 1 subchannel, and audio is only coming out of the right channel.

jparin

03-12-03, 08:40 AM

Anyone experience audio problems on Tuesday evening March 11, with Whio-DT??
I had bad sync and breakup.

Paul210

03-12-03, 09:10 AM

Jon,

Yes, I experienced the same thing. It must have been WHIO because WKRC-DT was fine.

Paul

acs236

03-17-03, 12:27 PM

My last few attempts at watching HDTV have been quite disappointing. Last night, about halfway through Boomtown I lost the HD signal (TWC/WKEF). I suspect WKEF is to blame, but can anyone confirm this?

Also, even when I was getting a signal, it would cut out for a second periodically throughout the show (only a few times, but annoying) -- can any of you OTA'ers confirm the source of the problem being WKEF?

Nitewatchman

03-17-03, 04:28 PM

acs,

I only tuned to WKEF-DT for a "HD check" for short periods a couple of times last night after 10, so all I can confirm is that When I tuned in I didn't notice any signal problems, and "Boomtown" Wasn't HD and was upconverted SD instead, while Boomtown WAS HD on WLWT-DT NBC Cincinnati. Also last night, "American Dreams" Was HD on WKEF-DT. I'm afraid Alias in HD via WDTN-DT had my complete attention between 9-10pm, so don't know what was going on with other stations during that time period. At 8pm, I did watch quite a bit of American Dreams in HD on WKEF-DT without noticing any problems with the Signal/etc.

I have noticed on earlier occasions that occasionally you'll get a "cut out" via WKEF-DT during HD -- More of a sort of "pause" for a second or so every once in a while, it often seems to happen just after the switch back to HD after local ads have been inserted/etc, or, sometimes seems to just involve the Video(via a "pause") and not the audio. From what I can tell when I've seen this, it doesn't seem to be a signal strength/interference/multipath/etc. issue, which would normally involve low, or very fluctuating readings on our OTA receivers "signal meters", and/or "Green" parts of the screen -- ie/Blockiness/pixelization via breakup/etc.

Also, if I remember correctly, it seems that Leno wasn't HD on WKEF-DT Friday night(at least to begin with), HD was fine from WLWT-DT Cincy. So, it appears they are still "dropping the ball" for what ever reason occasionally, but Still, overall it seems that WKEF-DT has been doing a bit better job with the HD lately.

Hope this helps,

Nitewatchman

03-18-03, 11:52 PM

Is anyone else seeing the "green stuff" and quite frequent short losses of Video from WBDT-DT? (WB Dayton -- 18 or, 26-1 for the "remappers" out there) ... I've actually seen this fairly often since shortly after they signed on.

It doesn't seem like it is a signal/reception problem, as I'm seeing it on both receivers here, and although the audio never drops out, the signal is nice, strong and steady. It kinda "looks like" something is making intermittant contact.

Paul210

03-22-03, 12:32 PM

Did anyone else happen to notice the multiple NCAA games broadcast last night by WHIO? At one time, they had one game on analog 7, a different game on 41-1, and a third game on 41-2 (although the PQ on 41-2 wasn't great). If they must broadcast a subchannel when HD is on, at least they gave us some different content for a change. After awhile, they had the same game on both analog 7 and 41-2, but there was still a different one in HD on 41-1.

Paul

buckeye1010

03-22-03, 01:00 PM

Yes! Multiple games by the same station!! Awesome! I remember reading about that years ago and was thrilled to finally see it in action!

buckeye1010

04-04-03, 11:47 AM

I have had channel 58 programed in my TV since I got it earlier this year. Prior to last night, I only got a blank 58.01 showing up. Last night, there was also a blank 58.02. Perhaps they are getting ready for next month? Anyone have an update on Dayton PBS going HD? Last I heard it was 1 May03.

Nitewatchman

04-04-03, 02:20 PM

Buckeye,

No sign of WPTD-DT here as of yet ..

3 possibilities I can think of:

1.) You caught them on the air testing (we are close to 5/1)
2.) You're getting a signal off their Exciter, if they have/had it turned on, and the antenna is "hooked up", it can put out a few watts of power w/o the transmitter being on ...
3.) Via Tropo(atmospheric "skip"), you picked up a bit of signal from WJBK-DT 58, Detroit ... This might especially be true If your antenna is aimed "generally" towards the North ... While I haven't had much luck TV Dx'ing the last couple of Days, I have heard reports of good DX coming into our area, originating from just around the frontal boundary that has been hanging just to our north ...

FWIW, I've seen WJBK-DT (Fox Detroit) quite a few times via tropo, and If I recall correctly, last time I saw them late last summer they were in fact, running 2 subchannels, 58-1 and 58-2 ... Attached is a screenshot from when I pulled them in last august from 208 Miles out ....(note, their analog station is on channel 2) ..

Nitewatchman

04-07-03, 04:20 PM

Just received the following info on ThinkTV/PBS digital's on air date and HD schedule, as well as some interesting comments :

ThinkTV 16 will go digital on May 1st: we'll offer HD M-F 8-11pm and Sat & Sun 6-11pm. Those hours may change slightly to
coincide with start/stop times for programs on our analog channel. 14 will likely go digital by the end of the summer.

It's frustrating when we have to move heaven and earth to make this happen, and yet a limited number will be able to view our
multicasting, and very few people will be able to see the HD broadcasts. I guess it's a case of "if you build it, they will
come," only we don't make anything off the sale of digital sets and receivers.

Jim Wiener
Manager of Program Services

----------------------------------------

I'm looking forward to seeing what we will get from ThinkTV digital!

I can certianly understand his frustration concerning the difficulties faced by broadcasters where DTV as well as HD is concerned. Of course, at times we also have our own frustrations as HD/DTV viewers and purchasers of HD Displays and DTV receivers/etc.

When they do come on the air, I would encourage everyone that receives them(OTA or cable "if available") to send them a note saying "thanks", as well as a signal report and letting them know that a "few people" is more than 3 .... :)

Here is link to the page on their website with contact info:

http://www.thinktv.org/about/contacts.html

Nitewatchman

04-08-03, 11:51 AM

I'm currently seeing a problem with WKEF-DT, plenty of steady signal as usual(steady 88 readings on a DTC100, 2/3+ readings on a HDV420) , but the receiver won't lock on the signal. I'm also Hearing a Buzz on channel 51 with an analog receiver as well, it is very similar to that which occured on WKEF-DT last fall when they were having a problem with their exciter. I sent a note to their Chief Engineer about this, hopefully, if this time it is an issue they are having, it will be fixed soon.

Was wondering however, is anyone currently receiving WKEF-DT(NBC Dayton) Without problems? Unless the Cableco get's WKEF-DT's signal OTA, I wouldn't think this would affect those who receive WKEF-DT via TWC.

Thanks,

Update: 3pm - Reception is back to normal for WKEF-DT here now, I have full audio/Video back on 51-1 -- However, it's straight 480i SD, no longer an upconvert, and 51-2 is no longer there ...

gindie

04-08-03, 11:10 PM

As of 11:00pm Tuesday, 22-1 (OTA) appears to be SD, with no audio. Looks like they are having problems.

acs236

04-09-03, 07:42 AM

I have TWC. When I flipped on the WKEF-HD station last night I had no picture or sound.

lameris

04-09-03, 01:01 PM

That may explain why I had no sound on my recording of Cher last night...
I'll have to try another recording today on another channel to see if it's my hardware. I was hoping for HD too, but I wasn't surprised with SD as it wasn't listed as HD in TitanTV.

Dang, a pretty good program too, except way too many commercials, but then again, there are too many commercials everywhere now.

Nitewatchman

04-09-03, 03:38 PM

SD is back on 51-2 today(So far, at least since 11:30am), still no audio. 51-1 is blank. (FYI, WKEF-DT doesn't seem to remap to 22-x on most receivers, unless it is doing so via DirecTV APG/etc.) Anyhow, as Gindie mentioned, Evidently they are having problems ....

Lameris,

Keep in mind, TitanTV is often wrong concerning their HD listings. For instance, they haven't been listing HD for WKEF-DT for quite a while, while they have for WLWT-DT(NBC Cincinnati). WKEF-DT has had NBC HD "when available", more or less ... Furthermore, TitanTV lists "Bernic Mac" show etc. as HD on WRGT-DT (Fox Dayton) tonight, and yet, as we know Fox Doesn't have HD, and also, WRGT-DT doesn't do Fox Widescreen --- At least, not so far ... While, at the same time, TitanTV does not show "HD" or, Fox widescreen for such programming on WXIX-DT(Fox Cincinnati), and Yet, WXIX-DT DOES offer Fox Widescreen ....

Probably the best source of HD programming info can be found in AVSforum's "HDTV programming section" ...

lameris

04-09-03, 04:31 PM

Nitewatchman

Thanks for the HD info. I'm still trying to get reliable SD or HD signals. Even though I am in 45415, just off of main street, I have trouble receiving many channels. Next the neighbor says I can use her old rooftop antenna, so when the weather improves, it's take it down and see if that works any better.

My OTA works great in analog and I've been wondering why the Digital reception is so poor.

Lameris

Nitewatchman

04-09-03, 09:05 PM

Originally posted by lameris
My OTA works great in analog and I've been wondering why the Digital reception is so poor.

Paul210 might be able to help out a little more, as I think he is pretty close to you and getting good results from all the Dayton, and most of the Cincinnati Digitals.

But, I'll give it a shot in case Paul's busy .... Quite a bit of this stuff applies to any receiving location in our area anyway ... It's Hard to say, there are LOTS of variables and possibilities. Off the top of my head, Follows are a few of the general issues involed, one, or a combination of factors which may be a factor(s) in you're specific circumstance:

1.)For the most part, in Dayton, the analog stations are on vastly different frequencies than their digital counterparts, and currently, the power output from the Dayton digitals aren't "really" all that equivilent to their analog counterparts. WDTN-DT 50/WKEF-DT 51 are in the Hi-UHF band, frequenices which normally especially require a lot of power to get out well, and also, frequencies on which signals are more easily attenuated by things such as walls, nearby buildings, trees/leaves/etc, in the Signal paths/etc .... WHIO-DT 41 is "sort of" "up there as well" ... The good news on this is, all the Dayton stations should be sending a good amount of signal your way, currently, per the directional radiation patterns of WHIO-DT/WRGT-DT(the others use non-directional transmitting antennas), and your quite close to the towers.

2.) For the most part, The transmitting antennas for the digital stations are a bit lower on the towers than is the case with the analog stations. Still, they are up there nice and high, but in the right "circumstances" it could make a difference. Looking on a topo map, I don't see any significant terrain differences in the area you mentioned, and since you're relatively close to the towers it should take quite a bit of terrain blockage to be a problem ... Still, if you're at the bottom of the wrong side of a steep enough hill(or other obstruction) that lies in the direction of the transmitting towers, it's possible I suppose.

3.)Multipath can especially sometimes be a problem when you're fairly close to the towers and have obstructions in, or near the signal paths -- However, If you're getting "crystal clear" reception of the Dayton analog stations(no ghosting), I'd say it is doubtful that multipath is a significant issue for you.

4.) Interference issues - Just one example, A very nearby, strong RF source, such as FM Radio Transmitter can cause interference problems, which may not be apparent on the frequencies the analog stations are using, but may be on the frequencies the digital stations are using. FCC is usually pretty good about minimizing these sorts of things though in a given area, and USUALLY, Harmonics from FM transmitters are mostly an issue on VHF High band(channels 7-13) ... However, interference from other sources can especially be an issue if you are using a preamp(or amplified antenna/etc), as these things are very broadband, and a strong signal on just about any frequency that overloads it can cause "interference" problems .... BTW, an amplified antenna or preamp for your receiving location probably isn't a great idea, as at your distance, as even strong signals from the Dayton TV stations can completely overload your preamp/tuner and spread "noise" all over other TV channels, including the ones with the Dayton stations .... Also, "Indoors" and amplified antennas usually don't mix, since Electrical noise(EMP/Impulse noise)+ other sources of RFI which can affect VHF/UHF (PC monitors/PC's/etc)indoors can be a problem ...

4a). Adjacent Channel issues/receiver selectivity issues -- Which should be less of an issue for digital than analog --- However --- Factors such as non-co located transmitting facilities, located in the same city/general area (such as WDTN-DT 50/WKEF-DT 51), and/or operating with vastly different power output could potentially make it difficult for example, for some receivers to effectively "tune in", say, a weaker signal on channel 50 due to a much, much stronger signal on channel 51. Currently WKEF-DT/WKEF-DT are operating from roughly equivelent power and antenna height, and their Full power allocations from FCC seem to be optimized to reduce this potential problem, so hopefully it won't be a problem to any great extent. This "effect" may make it difficult however from your location to tune in both WRGT-DT 30 Fox Dayton, and WXIX-DT 29, Fox Cincy.
-----------------------

Just wondering, but what sort of antenna are you currently using?

I think the best thing to do to improve TV/DTV reception(Generally, this should improve signal strength+reduce multipath) is to use a Directional antenna of a proven, conventional design(Yagi/Bowtie) mounted outdoors as high as is reasonably possible, away from obstructions(terrain/buildings/trees/etc) as much as possible and aimed towards the broadcasting towers.

Even when placing your antenna outdoors, it's still a very good idea to test the placement of the antenna before mounting it "permanently", as there can be "dead spots" for any given station(which can be caused by poor signal strength, multipath, or even interference problems) even outside ... Finding a "sweet spot" for your antenna which allows for good reception Is allways a good idea, whether the antenna is outdoors or indoors, although, usually finding a "sweet spot" is much more difficult indoors ... Also, While a good preamp would most likely help you with the Cincinnati stations, It most likely isn't a good idea for the Dayton stations(because of the "overload" problems mentioned above) since you're so close, and would almost need to aim right through the Dayton towers in order to aim your antenna towards Cincinnati ....

A good directional "outdoor" antenna may work indoors for you as well, but, putting your antenna indoors at the very least(in most circumstances) will reduce signal by 15-20db or so(that's a lot!), as well as increase multipath difficulties. Still, from your distance unless you have a signficant signal obstruction issue, I would think it is at least somewhat possible that a indoor antenna would work for you for the digital stations, although certian construction materials can act as especailly good signal absorbers, or reflectors, which is something you do not want.

Except for some types of insulated glass which cause signal problems, in many cases, probably the best place to put an indoor antenna would be near a Window facing the Transmitting towers(South, more or less in your case). The attic might work well also.

Just some ideas in case they help, there is plenty of excellent info on Antennas and improving reception throughout AVSforum, including earlier in this thread, as well as in the Cincinnati threads which may be useful to you.

----------------------------------

Except for Low power analog station WWRD-LP 55, which is in the Bellbrook/Centerville area, The Dayton TV Towers are all Near Rt 4 and Gettysburg ave., on the Hill between I-75 and RT 4. I'm sure you've seen them ... They are about 8-10 Miles or so to the SSE(Almost South) of intersection of I-70 and SR48. "Generally", the Digital transmitting antennas in Dayton are around 1800~2000 feet or so Above Sea Level(approx 900~1000FT Above average terrain), which gives the Dayton Digital stations roughly the same Maximum coverage area as is the case with the analog stations ... 55-65 Miles or so, which is the case for most of the Cincinnati Stations as well. The "reachable" Cincy Towers would be Roughly SSW of your location, between about 47~53 Miles -- Of course, In a fringe area, one would generally need a fairly decent, Hi-gain outdoor antenna setup, and no significant terrain issues/etc.....

Here, I experience pretty much the opposite from what you seem to be getting. Being down in a Valley and in the "middle of the woods" as I am, It takes a antenna(with quite precise aiming) on a 35' tower in order for me to get good analog reception from most stations, free of ghosting/snow/"noise"/etc, and yet I can get most of the Cincy(27~39 miles) and Dayton Digital Stations(12-14 Miles) with a simple, $2 UHF bowtie or VHF rabbit ears(VHF antenna required for WCPO-DT 10 ABC Cincy) placed near a 2nd story window which faces the direction of the transmitting towers(2 different windows, one to the NE for Dayton, one to the S for Cincy) ... I also can induce severe ghosting(multipath) on the analog stations by rotating my quite directional(outdoor) antenna way, way off target, while at the same off target heading, good reception of the digital counterpart of the station involved is not affected.

Furthermore, The only digital station I can receive with a good enough signal via a settop antenna on the 1st floor, in the middle of the house and through 3 walls is WRGT-DT 30. I can receive no "decent"(I.e. Watchable, "fairly" ghostfree/snowfree/noisefree/etc.) analog signals from the settop indoor antenna location. From the "near the window facing the towers" locations, while I can get "watchable" quality from some of the high power analogs, It looks much, much better with the outdoor setup ... Of course, The digitals I can receive from indoors look just as good either way, although surely reception is better and probably more "dropout prone" with the outdoor antenna setup(I get no dropouts with it really, Don't know about the indoor setup as I just tried it for experiment sake, but I didn't get any for the few hours of experimentation from the stations I was receiving) .... Just a little example of how important it is to find a "sweet spot" for reception to place your antenna in ....

Probably more than you wanted to hear. Of course, experimentation is key and YMMV .... For example, while a preamp wouldn't seem to be a good idea for your location, you just never know, it might help more than it hurts .... Hope some of this helps and good luck,

Nitewatchman

04-09-03, 10:08 PM

WKEF-DT presently has HD for L&O at 10pm on 51-1(with audio!), West Wing was as normal, an upconvert ....

Audio still missing on 51-2, not that we need it, or the SD video on 51-2 either for that matter ....

toshman

04-10-03, 04:26 PM

USA HD just showed up on channel 700. Limited programming but the Masters tournament will be shown. (Yeah)

Tuned in today and had Masters coverage, definitely HD, beautiful picture but the game was rained out today.

Way to go, TWC!

Nitewatchman

04-11-03, 02:54 PM

OTA Wise, Master's coverage in HD Today via WKRC-DT (CBS Cincinnati) .... WHIO-DT, CBS Dayton has the normal CBS soap opera fare, SD currently .....

Update 4pm: WHIO-DT has switched to HD masters on 41-1 at sometime in the last hour ... I see Noticable compression artifacts during fast focus/fast Camera pans, as expected for HDVideo when a station is multicasting ... Sigh ...HD, HD from HD Video especially and Multicasting/Datacasting don't mix, perhaps one of these days they'll figure this out .... I've Seen the difference, via WLWT-DT (NBC Cincinnati) which does not Multicast(during HD Olympics), and from WCET-DT (PBS Cincy) back when they weren't multicasting(they do multicast now, unfortuently ....)

acs236

04-14-03, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by toshman
USA HD just showed up on channel 700. Limited programming but the Masters tournament will be shown. (Yeah)

Tuned in today and had Masters coverage, definitely HD, beautiful picture but the game was rained out today.

Way to go, TWC!

It disappeared as of today -- not to complain, there wasn't really a programming on it. Where is CBS and ABC, TWC?

lameris

04-14-03, 09:14 PM

Wow! Thank you Jeff for your response. Personally, I think it is my antenna, a small bowtie.

Now I plan on trying out a neighbors unused antenna and maybe their rotator too if it still works.

Nitewatchman

04-14-03, 11:34 PM

Lameris,

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

Acs and all,

Well, at least it seems WKEF-DT has been good about providing NBC HD as of late, at least when I've looked ... When I checked they even had "Crossing Jordan" in HD tonight, and that's one they used to miss quite often ...

A little over 2 weeks to PBS HD via WPTD-DT 58! Also, WCET-DT (PBS)Cincinnati should be increasing power soon, and those of you who get the other(or most of the other) Cincinnati stations should have a very good shot at it when they increase power ..

buckeye1010

04-17-03, 01:19 PM

Does anyone have a map that shows the exact locations of all the Dayton area TV (and other) antennas and their functions? I know where the WHIO and WGRT/WKEF antennas are at the Gettysburg/Germantown area, but what are all those other antennas for in the area? Also, if WHIO is over there, what is the large antenna at their studio location (on Wilmington) used for? Just curious!

Nitewatchman

04-17-03, 02:09 PM

Buckeye,

You can find info on FCC site which lists the lat/long coordinates of the Towers used for the corresponding transmitters/etc ... Here is where you can go to run a query for info on the TV/DTV Stations(To get all the info, Choose "Detailed Info+CDBS Links"):

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html

There are AM/FM queries on FCC site as well ... Takes a little more digging to find the info on STL links/etc, but they are on there somewhere as well ...

This site also I beleive lists the coordinates for the towers:

http://100kwatts.tmi.net/listings.html

There are of course also towers used by FAA, towers for microwave communincations, towers for emergency communications/etc/etc/etc., "Ham" VHF/UHF repeaters also often use space on TV/Radio towers for their antennas .... Near Centerville, there is(or was) even a Ham "TV station"(W8BI ATV Repeater) on a "shorter tower" which some viewers may be able see occasionally by switching their TV to "cable mode" and (while hooked up to an antenna) tune to (I think it is) Cable channel 57 or 58 and see some activity ...(Besides HAM TV stations, One thing they used to do is retransmit NASA TV during Shuttle missions ...) Haven't seen, or looked for them in a while though, so not sure how active this Amateur TV(NTSC) "station" is these days ...

As for WHIO's Wilmington pike, tower ..... Not sure what they use it for, But according to FCC info, Both WHIO 7, and the DTV station on 41 broadcast from the tower near Rt 4(germantown Rd)/Gettysburg area ...

Attached is a map showing the location of the Dayton/Springfield area TV/DTV towers, As according to FCC info --- These show "everything" except for WWRD-LP 55's current tower location, which according to FCC CDBS info is About 1 Mile South of Indian Ripple Rd, and about 1 Mile East of I-675, and W47BC(TBN Translator) Springfield, whose tower is Just NW of Springfield along SR 41 -- Note: WWRD-LP has a permit to move to channel 32, as well as to near the location of the other Dayton TV towers ... The one farthest south on this map (Whose labels might be hard to read) also includes the location of WRCX-LP 40's current Construction permit from FCC, as well as the facilities for W66AQ, a one time Translator for what is now WB 64 Cincinnati, but, which once was a Over the Air Subscription TV service known as "ONTV" .... It's been a long time since I've seen W66AQ, I'm not sure that they are still on the air ... WBDT's tower(previously WDPX, and previously WTJC 26) Was Just Southwest of Springfield, but, they moved to the location of the others just a couple of years ago ...

Oh, BTW, the red and blue lines to the towers are plots for distance/elevation profiles from my place, just disregard those ...

buckeye1010

04-17-03, 03:12 PM

Jeff - As usual, you a great source of information!! Thank you! The map you attached clears up alot for me.

For those folks following along at home, this map will help situate things, along with the map you posted (see attached)

And here is a nifty view from space. If you zoom in, you can even see the antenna's shadows! (in fact it is easier, when zoomed in, to spot the shadows than it is the antennas themselves).

http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=13&x=459&y=2749&z=16&w=2

From this view (when zooming in), I can find all the antennas on your map, and then some. Also, switch between Aerial Photo and Topo Map to get more info.

Paul210

04-17-03, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by buckeye1010
Also, if WHIO is over there, what is the large antenna at their studio location (on Wilmington) used for? Just curious!

I don't know for sure, and you've probably already researched it, but I always thought the tower on Wilmington was the WHIO radio tower.

Nitewatchman

04-17-03, 05:41 PM

Buckeye,

I didn't think about Terraserver, that's pretty cool! Looks like USGS needs to update their Info a little though, as The Topo Quad(from 1988) still has the WDTN tower labelled as WLWD (WLW-Dayton ----- Once part of the Crosley "empire" ... Became WDTN sometime in the late 70's or early 80's ...)

Paul,

I think you are are correct concerning WHIO Radio Tower, where WHIO 1290 AM is Concerned ....What is now WHKO FM 99.1 Looks to be on or near the WHIO TV tower, however ... Looked it up in the FCC AM database(looked real quick though, so I didn't get too specific as to it's location), and that looks right ... Also, According to FCC Info on WHIO-AM, It looks like there should be 3 Towers WHIO-AM uses, at night in order to achieve their directional pattern they operate with after sunset (They use 1 tower, and a non-directional pattern in the Dayttime) ...

Paul210

04-17-03, 08:36 PM

As I recall, back in the stone ages we had to build crystal radios in school. I'm sure that may conjure up memories for the rest of you old guys. What we made was very basic without a tuner, so you just received whatever was closest to you. I lived on Patterson Rd. and I could get WHIO gangbusters, as well as WING, usually both at the same time. That's how I figured that their radio tower was on Wilmington. Talk about a blast from the past...

Paul

Evan

04-18-03, 09:12 AM

Originally posted by Paul210
As I recall, back in the stone ages we had to build crystal radios in school. Talk about a blast from the past...

Paul

Wow, I forgot about doing that! Did you ever get that huge tower built? Imagine what you could receive hooking the old crystal set to the tower! :D

buckeye1010

04-24-03, 11:04 AM

Just for grins, I decided to find the WWRD-LP antenna on terraserver, based upon 1Mi S of Indian Ripple, 1 Mi E of 675. I think I found it:

http://www.terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=10&x=3754&y=21977&z=16&w=2

If you zoom out (click on the minus sign on the left) about 3 times, you'll see I.R. and 675.

Since my field trip out to the antenna farms last week, I can now view and identify almost all the OTA antennas that I pick up, looking out my northern window. They are all about 10 miles, line of site. The giveaway reference is the triangular-shaped top of WGRT's antenna - it sort of looks like a cell phone antenna, but much taller. I can pick that one out all around town.

As for crystal radios - you don't need to be (that) old to remember them! I'm 42, and I've build over a dozen of them, including one using a rusty razor blade as the crystal. Does anyone remember the 'rocket radios' - either the old ones or the new repros?

Nitewatchman

04-24-03, 02:25 PM

Buckeye,

Sounds like you have as much fun with this stuff as I do :)

... Some of the following is quite a bit off topic for DTV I suppose, but it is fun to talk about!

Well, I'm only 36 but I had a crystal radio too ... I had more fun putting together my 1st Ham Radio though, a Heathkit HW-16 HF transceiver. It actually worked quite well and I used it for 100's of CW(morse code) Contacts before "moving up" to a pair of Drake Twins (Drake BTW, has made some of the finest radios ever made from their location which used to be in Miamisburg ...) I still use a Old Drake 2-A and my old Drake Twins(R4-A and TX4C) every now and then ...

I'd have to dig for them and I'm not sure I recall what I have left as I've cleared out most of the old radio stuff and parts and such to make room for newer "junk", but I also have several older, small(for Tube radios they are small) "consumer type" AM radios in the garage from the 30's and 40's. A few years ago, I repaired a early 1930's Zenith(AM and Shortwave, even still had "Police Band" markings where the 80 Meter Ham band now is) which was built into a wall at a friend's house, the only thing it needed was a capacitor(luckily, I had something "close enough" lying in the garage) and a new "string" which allowed the dial to move the tuner ...

-----------------

I wish I had WWRD-LP's tower in my backyard! Per FCC site, It's exact coordinates are:

39 40 48 N
84 4 56 W

It looks like it is "about" a 300FT tower, Converted from the metric system, the Transmitting antenna is 291FT above ground, 1296FT Above sea level ...

I've noticed as of late that they've switched from their previous mostly "all shopping" format to carrying programming from World Harvest Television(mostly religious) --- I noticed the other day that Between 4pm and 6 on weekdays now however, they have "Lassie", "The Lone Ranger" and "The Rifeman" if you're "into" nostalgic TV ... I found a programming Schedule for World Harvest Television here:

http://titantvguide.titantv.com/apg/apg_grid.asp?callsign=wht

I have noticed lately that the audio from WWRD-LP often has quite a buzz in it, as well as being at a VERY low level ... So, if you watch this station, don't forget to turn down the volume before switching channels <g>
--------------------------

Concerning the WRGT tower with the crossmembers and 3 masts on top, I'm not sure how new the tower itself is, but I think the "top piece" with all the masts is relatively new. I don't recall seeing the 3 masts on top prior to a couple of years ago. According to FCC site, 5 stations actually use that tower: WRGT, WRGT-DT, WKEF-DT, WBDT and WBDT-DT ... All of their transmitting antennas being on, or near the top, hence the 3 masts.

----------------------------
On the one hand, it is certianly a good thing to have all(except for WWRD-LP currently, and W47BC Springfield) the TV towers in a market/city in one spot, since it makes for "easy" antenna aiming -- However, the downside of this is, should "disaster"(i.e. Tornado) strike over near Rt 4 and Gettysburg to an extent which brings down some, or many of the towers, It might be a LONG time before the Dayton TV stations could get back on the air, since It will probably be quite difficult to find Tower Space unless new towers are built ...

---------------

One thing about "line of sight", "RF Line of sight" and Optical line of sight are 2 different things, as in reality, RF Line of sight equates to a longer distance which is a bit "beyond" the curvature of the Earth(and moreso to a small extent the lower the frequency used), due to the "physics" of Signal Propagation on VHF/UHF, as Signals are allways refracted(I.e. bent towards the Earth's surface) to some extent by the medium(air) they travel through ... There is an excellent explanation of this "space wave", or "RF line of sight" VHF/UHF propagation mode in the "Signal Propagation" section at the following site, other modes of more long distance propagation are also well-described here(BTW, Lots of other great stuff in the other sections of this site as well) :

http://www.dxfm.com/

I can see none of the Towers from my location down in a valley here(12-14 Miles from the "main" Dayton towers), although there are higher spots nearby from which I can see them. My memory is a little fuzzy, but I think I can remember when the "new" WKEF tower went up, it was the first one to have the white, flashing "strobe like" lights on it ...

--------------------------

Although there is still a little fudge factor involved since obstacles and the height of the receiving antenna is also a factor(as is transmit power/Transmitting antenna's radiation pattern), I use the following formula(and info from the FCC site on antenna height/etc.) to figure out MAX RF Line of sight distances for the local stations :

Square Root of Transmitting antennas Height in feet ABOVE SEA LEVEL(NOT above ground, or Height above average terrain) X 1.415 = Maximum RF line of sight distance(I.e. Coverage area) In Miles.

Due to their Transmitting antenna heights, Most of the Dayton and Cincinnati(analog and digitals) stations have a max coverage area/RF line of sight distance of around 55-60 Miles or so, and most folks with a high gain antenna setup at that distance(or a little farther, especially the VHF's) should be able to receive them. Since most of the Dayton/Cincinnati Towers are about 42-44 Miles apart, this puts about everyone(except those with "serious enough" terrain blockage issues) Between I-70 and the Ohio River "in range" of most of BOTH the Dayton and Cincinnati stations.

W47BC in Springfield is the weakest signal I see here on UHF at "all times", It's tower is 39 Miles from my location, and they "spurt out" a measly 5.8 KW analog ERP(The "equivenlent DTV ERP would be about 1.2 KW ERP) ... While I also see WAVE 3 Lousiville(95 Miles), and the Columbus stations on 4+6(78 Miles) at all times, WAVE 3 has a extremely tall tower, and their Low-VHF frequencies let their signals "bend" a little farther beyond the curvature of the Earth ...

One thing I like about the Low-Power analog stations in Dayton and Cincinnati is, they give me a good idea of how well my antenna setup is working, without the need to have to "wait for" conditions conducive to Dx'ing ..

----------------------------

buckeye1010

04-24-03, 03:36 PM

I hope we aren't TOO off topic here - mods, speak up, if we are!

Sounds like you have as much fun with this stuff as I do
Oh yes!

I collect antique radios and vacuum tubes. Also have a couple dozen transistor radios. If you guys need any tubes, let me know. My prized possession is my Grandfather's old 1942 Zenith upright console w/ record player. It has 12 tubes. It's one of those shutter-dial kinds, with SW, and the old FM band (it was only around for a couple of years and went away when the war started).

---------------------------------------

In my last house (far north Centerville), I had a nice big outdoor antenna on the chimney with a rotator, and inside one of those wireless remote controls for the rotator - it read out in compass degrees. Could get an OSU basketball game on channel 10 on a good night. Now, where we live in Washington Twp, they have an ordinance against TV antennas, so I have to live with one in the attic - which for digital TV, works real well, pointed at Gettysberg Rd area, 330 degrees.
---------------------------------------

One thing about "line of sight", "RF Line of sight" and Optical line of sight are 2 different things

Right - I remember when I did some calculations, for me, I was to add 5 degrees (CW) to the geographic LOS to get the RF LOS.
------------------------------------------------

re: WRGT site - they do have two towers, like right next to each other. So, maybe some of those 5 stations you listed might be on the other tower.

Nitewatchman

04-24-03, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by buckeye1010
Now, where we live in Washington Twp, they have an ordinance against TV antennas, so I have to live with one in the attic
[/B]

No, you don't have to live with that. There is an FCC ruling which prohibits any "organization"/etc. from prohibiting outdoor TV antennas. While there are certian cases in which they can make it a PITA, basically, the FCC ruling indicates you can go up to 12' above the roofline on property you control. It's the law. Do a search on the forum for "OTARD" or "HOA" for more info. Banning outdoor antennas makes about as much sense as banning the use of flagpoles/etc, and HOA's etc have made attempts to do that as well.

re: WRGT site - they do have two towers, like right next to each other. So, maybe some of those 5 stations you listed might be on the other tower. [/B]

That makes sense as if I recall correctly from the FCC site, the coordinates for a couple of the stations did differ by a couple of seconds. It also makes me think the one with the 3 masts on top is fairly new. I looked at them several months ago while driving by on route 4, but didn't get a good enough look ... BTW, there is a tower on the other side of RT 4 that has a LOT of antennas hanging off it, and one up by Hara Arena which has more antennas hanging off a single tower than I think I've ever seen! I meant to get a pic of it when up at Hamvention last year, but I think I ended up getting sidetracked by a 50KW Dummy Load in the Flea market<g>

Jeff

Nitewatchman

04-25-03, 05:09 PM

At 4:57pm, I tuned to 58 --- And ... WPTD-DT 58 PBS Dayton is on the air!

Getting a solid signal here which seems to be matching the other Dayton stations ... 80-82% readings from both receivers and solid reception.(ANT used is a CM3010 "STealttenna" aimed towards Dayton and side mounted to tower 28FT above ground)

Presently, I assume they are testing, these are the subchannels I'm getting(1st column from DTC-100 with Channel remapping turned off, 2nd column from HDV420 with channel remapping)

58-2 (16-1) - 480i Simulcast of WPTD 16 programming
58-3 (16-2) - Blank
58-4 (16-3) - Blank
58-5 (16-4) - 480i, current Simulcast of WPTO 14 programming
58-6 - (16-5) - A 16x9 ATSC format, probably 1080i or 720p - Blank

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Update: Hmm ... I'm getting No audio via the Zenith HDV420 from either 16-1 or 16-5, but the audio is fine on both subchannels via the RCA F38310 (basically, a internal DTC100)

Paul210

04-25-03, 06:09 PM

Jeff,

I thought you would beat me to it. I just tuned in and in addition to your observations, I noted the details listed here:

16-1 Think16
16-2 16KIDS
16-3 16TOO
16-4 THINK14
16-5 THINKHD

Only picture on 16-1 and 16-4. No audio on any of them with my Sammy. All of them show up as SD.

Paul

Paul210

04-25-03, 06:26 PM

I don't know if they care, but I just sent a signal report to their chief engineer:

Fred Stone, Chief Engineer
937-220-1686
fred_stone@wptd.pbs.org

I also let him know they were being received in Florence, KY per the Cincy thread. They must be cranking a few watts right out of the gate.

Nitewatchman

04-25-03, 06:50 PM

Paul,

You beat me on the signal report by a few mintues! LOL ... I Forwarded Doc's post to Fred as well ...

It's just a guess, but I'd guess they are running at full power(according to their CP, 290KW with a non directional antenna, 1922FT ASL, 1043FT AGL, 1050FT HAAT) under Program Test Authority, since an STA filing hasn't popped up on FCC site.

Judging by the communication I've gotten from them before, I'd think they most likely do Care given the effort that they have to put into getting their digital station on the air , but, from what I've gathered, they think there are only "a few" of us out here with DTV/HD reception capability. Soo, by all means, everyone, contact them with a signal report/request for Time Warner HD carriage of PBS/etc. and let them know that a "few" doesn't mean 3!

Another good ThinkTV contact to send comments regarding their digital station, and HD programming/etc. (and to let them know we are watching thier digital station) is:

For Programming Questions/Comments:
Jim Wiener, Program Manager
937-220-1724
jim_wiener@wptd.pbs.org

BTW, I can tell 16-5 is being sent in an 16x9 HD(or 480p) format by the way my receiver's handle stretching/zooming/etc ... The DTC100(internal to a F38310) Won't let you stretch HD, nor will it add grey bars, while it will on 480i SD, and, The HDV420 Won't either unless you output at 480p ... And, if you do output at 480p, it won't let you manipulate 4x3 SD, but Will let you stretch/zoom a 1080i or 720p source ... So ... Everything I'm seeing plus the "ThinkHD" label you're seeing seems to indacte that 16-5 will be where the HD will be ...

Nitewatchman

04-27-03, 06:12 PM

This is the first chance I've had to turn on the TV and tune around at 6pm(sunday) - Since Last night around 11pm or so, and I notice that WPTD-DT is currently Off the air, perhaps all day long ... It was up still last night at 11pm ...

-----------------------------------

"Forrest Gump" Looked really good on ABC Last night in HD ... The following is just my .02, and is subjective, but, I'd rank it up there with some of the other best Film Transfers to HD I've seen which have been: The Indy Jones" movies on ABC, MI2 on CBS, and "The Green Mile" on ABC ... Even though I've seen this movie too many times to count, I still very much enjoyed it in HD(first time I've seen it in HD), and, I really didn't mind the commercials since the HD looked so good ...

I "synch'ed up" the DVD and made a comparison between the DVD, WDTN-DT and WCPO-DT .... The DVD (at 480p) just doesn't compare to HD, as it "looks" NTSC ..

On the one hand, WCPO-DT Video just looks a little better than WDTN-DT ... Sharper and Clearer ... I assume this is because they are (still?) using a professional upconverter, and converting the 720p from ABC to 1080i, while my consumer equipment has to upconvert the 720p from WDTN-DT to 1080i for my display ...

On the Other hand, Compression artifacts were quite evident at times during certian scenes, such as many of the scenes when Forrest was running and there were lots of "other" details in the shot, such as all the foilage in the Battle scene/etc ... I assume this is because WCPO-DT is multicasting, as I've never seen this effect when a station gives HD the entire bandwidth possible(even with 16x9 HD Video, Forrest Gump should have required LESS bandwidth since it was HD from Film, AND used less than the entire 16x9 frame, since it was an OAR at 2.35:1 .... No compression artifacts whatsover visable on WDTN-DT BTW, even with their SD subchannel(BTW, the WDTN-DT SD subchannel to my eyes DOES suffer compression artifacts just about all the time, whearas this isn't so much the case via WCPO-DT's weather/"Promo" subchannel)

buckeye1010

04-30-03, 07:20 PM

Anyone catch any HD on Dayton PBS yet? Today, sometime around 5pm, I caught 2 seconds of a horse in HD on 16-5, then it froze and went off. But I have been picking up stuff on the other 4 channels, though. I wonder if they are going to do that "HD Demonstration" thing that other PBS stations are doing?

Nitewatchman

04-30-03, 07:30 PM

Buckeye,

Per the scheduling of the PBS HD DT2A sat feed and the info I have gotten from ThinkTV, I'd assume(and I'm just assuming) we'll see the PBS HD demo loop(and more) from them, follows is the info I received concerning their HD schedule from their Program director a few weeks back:

"ThinkTV 16 will go digital on May 1st: we'll offer HD M-F 8-11pm and Sat & Sun 6-11pm. Those hours may change slightly to
coincide with start/stop times for programs on our analog channel. "
----

Sooo, I could be wrong, but I'm assuming that they'll be passing through the PBS HD DT2A feed during those times, the schedle for the DT2A Sat feed is available here:

http://www.ptvdigital.org/dt2a_may.html

BTW, They had PBS HD for about an hour today on 16-5 between 1 and 2pm ...

I noticed while I'm getting the Audio fine from WPTD-DT with the DTC-100 with the "off air guide"(This turns off channel remapping, and various PSIP features such as channel ID, off air guide data/etc -- The DTC-100 is the only receiver I know of that lets you do this) function turned off, If I turn the off air guides(psip) ON, then I LOSE the audio completely! I'm getting no audio via my other receiver from WPTD-DT, a zenith HDV420 ... I've forwarded this info to their CE ...

Also, I heard back from Fred Stone(ThinkTV CE) today, follows are his comments:

"Hi, Jeff--

Thanks for the report Friday and again today. I read your Friday report just as I was ready to leave the office Friday
afternoon. I had intended to reply from home over the weekend but never got around to it.

We'll check out the audio. I'm not sure what's happening. It sounds OK at the transmitter test and monitoring set-up. Our
off-air monitoring in Master Control is being set up as I write this, albeit a temporary arrangement. We will be continuing to
develop our full switching, automation and monitoring systems during the Summer.

0600 Thursday 1 May is the premiere of ThinkTV digital broadcasting. We plan to broadcast four SD channels except during
"primetime" when we will do HD plus one SD (simulcast of ThinkTV16).

Thanks, again, for the report. By the way, how did you know when we came on the air Friday? Were you "scanning?"

Fred"

Paul210

04-30-03, 09:20 PM

Well Jeff, were you "scanning"?

Nitewatchman

04-30-03, 09:33 PM

Paul,

Sort of<g> ... I got lucky this time though ... I Had just gotten home and decided to do my "usual" daily check* to see what all the local DT's were up to, and as I told Fred, I had tuned to 58(manually) just for the heck of it at 4:57 pm last Friday ..... If I remember correctly, that's the first time I'd tried 58 for a couple of days ...

* --- Which I normally do around lunch time but I hadn't gotten around to it last Friday --- I did the check before I ate my rapidly cooling chinese take out as I had planned on eating while watching the local news at 5pm and/or the Simpsons, as I had expected to go through the check of the 13(now 14) locals without seeing a change in things .... The food and my growling stomach BTW being why my email to Fred followed yours ....

Nitewatchman

05-01-03, 06:08 PM

Just a quick note, presently(6pm), WPTD-DT isn't sending Channel remapping data via PSIP, so, presently, you'll most likely have to tune to 58(or, 58~2-6) to tune it in ... I suppose its possible some receiver's might require a "auto rescan" of channels/etc, but I wouldn't think so(keep in mind, they might switch Channel remapping back on sometime "soon" in the future)

Anyhow, Looks like this has FIXED the audio problem :)

---------------------

Fingers crossed for some PBS HD from them soon -- I'll be checking at 8pm. I haven't seen much of it from the Cincinnati area stations lately, even though it's "available" from PBS and the DT2A feed 24/7 .... Although, there may be programming rights issues involved with "some" programming ...

FYI, between Dec and a few weeks ago WCET-DT Cincinnati had the PBS HD throughout their hours of operation(8am-11pm), It's been over 2 weeks now I believe since they've had ANY HD ....

Nitewatchman

05-02-03, 12:44 AM

Looks like I assumed wrong! Apparently, "ThinkTV HD" has HD recording and time shifting capabilities, which is excellent :cool:

Also, a little "digging" on their website seems to indicate that they will be using their HD recording and time shifting abilities in a way which should give us ALL the PBS HD/Widescreen digital, and then some, which is Excellent :)

Concerning tonight's schedule, They had 10 Minutes of the PBS Demo loop at 8pm, then had a showing of "Manor House"(widescreen digital SD), Then, they had Nova's "Secret Garden" in HD at 10PM :)

They also put up a graphic indicating that a schedule would be posted on their website ... I looked, but couldn't find a complete listing of HD programming, however, I noticed that if I did a "search by Program" that I knew that PBS has in HD such as "Tracks ahead", The scheduling info/channel info/detailed program info for all showings of Tracks ahead, SD+HD popped up. So, I assume they will soon be adding a more compreshensive schedule to their site, which won't necessite a "search by program" when looking for HD ...

After searching for a few of the programs I know PBS has in HD, I must tell you, I was VERY impressed at how they seem to have their schedule for HD worked out ... The way they are doing it with the time shifting, Between the Hours of 8-11pm weekdays, and 6-11pm on weekends, we should get ALL the PBS HD/Widscreen SD Digital that is available, and Then some ....

When everyone gets the time, IF you're so inclined, I would Highly recommend that everyone send ThinkTV their Comments on their HD service, as well as letting them know that we appreciate the HD! If they don't think there is anyone out here watching, they may not be as inclined to "keep up" the HD at the "level" which was evident tonight, as well as to the extent that they seem to be planning for the future ...

Now, the Not so good news ....

1.)For those that didn't see it tonight, there were 2 large Bugs evidently being inserted by some piece of equipment they were using. I would imagine(and hope) these will disappear soon, and(and this is just a guess) that they might have been caused by an issue involving their "need" to make a change in PSIP/etc. for the audio problem they were having.

2.) There were noticable Compression artifacts where you would expect them when a station is multicasting, and especially so when HD sourced from HDVideo is being broadcast --- I.e. During Fast motion, Fast Camera Pans, and fast focusing. There was one scene in "Secret Garden" of heavy snowfall which really did it too.

I hope they can improve things a bit where this is concerned without too much difficultly --- This is after all their first "scheduled" day of broadcasting, and they've been dealing with the audio/PSIP issue. While I'd certianly rather have the HD "AS IS" than none at all, I think giving anything Less than the Full bandwidth possible to HD is detrimental ..... I've seen PBS HD via WCET-DT back when they devoted the entire bandwidth possible, at which time you could stick your nose 12" from a large HD display and NEVER see a HINT of a compression artifact/"jaggies". Unfortunetly, it looks like none of the local PBS stations will be giving the entire bandwidth to HD. They are "hindered" by a current FCC requirement which requires that they simulcast, currently, 50% of their analog schedule on their digital station ... Furthermore, there may be other issues involved, such as Cable Carriage of the Digital "simulcast" of Think16.

So, on the one hand, I'd certianly like to see the entire bandwidth devoted to HD when it is being broadcast. On the other hand, and a more positive note, it's good to see that ThinkTV is trimming down the SD services to Only 1 when HD is being broadcast. Both Cincinnati/N. KY PBS DTV stations Do 2 SD services alongside HD.

--------------------

Ok, this is my 3rd post in a row to this thread(as you might be able to tell, I'm a big time PBS viewer), So I'll quit bumping this thread for now ...

buckeye1010

05-02-03, 06:56 AM

Jeff- thanks for all that!!! I was forced to watch the PBS widescreen 'rollout' at commercial times for survivor. I couldn't quite convince the wife of the historical implications of witnessing a new service being shown for the first time!! My Mits w/internal tuner is still re-mapping to 16. Any idea why they had both a 16.05 and 16.06? When they had Secret Garden in HD, did they have it on both of those? Jeff - I'm with you about trying to conserve on bandwidth for HD. The idea of one station showing 5 or 6 SD shows at once is also a pretty cool idea! But most people who own a digital tuner are able to see the HD, and thats what large screen is all about! (IMHO). :)

Paul210

05-02-03, 08:54 AM

When I tuned to 16-1 last night, it quickly changed to 58. I received a picture for about 2 seconds, then it went to "no signal" and the screen went blank. I tried changing back and forth to other channels, but never could get anything on 58 other than "no signal" and a blank screen. The Samsung's reception light turns green, and the signal strength meter tells me there's plenty of signal there, but no picture. I tried doing a channel re-scan but it didn't help--still the "no signal" indication. My Samsung receiver doesn't like something they're doing.

Paul

Nitewatchman

05-02-03, 12:26 PM

Buckeye,

The only "real" subchannel HD is on is 58-6, via my RCA DTC-100(internal to a RCA F38310) with the channel remapping stuff turned off(DTC-100 is the only receiver I know of that lets you do this) it has remained 58-6 throughout, and the SD services have remained 58-2~5.

Of course, all the programming on all the different subchannels are really just sent in one datastream on a single RF channel(58), and there is further info sent which lets your receiver "sort out" which programming gets sent to which subchannel ...

On the other receiver here (Zenith HDV420), for which I can't turn off PSIP/Channel remapping, I was seeing the HD subchannel on 16-5 until day before yesterday(I think), at which time 16-5 disappeared, and the HD subchannel "moved" to 16-6, until yesterday afternoon at which time the channel remapping disappeared, and it's now showing up on 58-6. Luckily, as long as the actual RF channel is in the "Channel list", or, if you tune manually to the actual RF channel(in this case 58) whenever a station changes something with the channel remapping via PSIP, this receiver just seems to "roll with it" and change to whereever the new subchannel is, as it allways "knows" where the "real" channel is, and takes the info from there accordingly ... However, if I were to manually tune it to 58-1 now instead of just 58, it would currently "stick on 58-1 and give me a blank screen ...Tuning to 58 only however, would switch it to 58-2 and ThinkTV 16 programming, or, I could manually tune to 58-2~6 with good results. If I would try to tune to 16 presently however, it would just sit there and give me "no signal" as it has no way to know, currently, that the actual "data" is on 58 ... If they were remapping to 16 however, all it would take is 1 time tuning to 58 "first", and then the next time I tuned to 16, the receiver would know to "actually" send the tuner to 58 to check and see where the subchannels go ...

Anyhow, I noticed that the HD programming is listed(via "search by program") on their website as being on channel 16.6, so I suppose it's possible they changed it from 16.5 to 16.6 to "coincide" with the listings.

So, if you're still seeing both 16.5 and 16.6, they are really only 1 subchannel -- A auto channel rescan/etc. might make it disappear.

My guess as to why your still getting the remap to 16.x is that your tuner may not support channel remapping via PSIP, and instead does the channel remapping via infomation that is sent along with the "program data" .... Some receivers support channel remapping "only" via PSIP, and others do it via data sent with the program data ... Still another possibility is that if your receiver is also a Sat receiver and you're using the dish, the channel remapping could be being "handled" by the DirecTV Adavanced Program Guide ...

I'm wondering, prior to yesterday, were you getting audio from them? If so, I'd say it's very probable that your receiver isn't doing the remapping/etc. via PSIP functions.

Paul,

Hmm, that's odd that you're having problems tuning them in ... I wonder if tuning to the subchannels manually would be of any help? --- I'd think though that a auto rescan should have had them "pop up". This is where the subchannels "are"(currently) without remapping, at least, this is how they are showing up on both my receivers :

58-2 - Simulcast of WPTD 16 analog (Was remapping to 16.1)
58-3 - Think TV Kids (PBS Kids) (Blank During HD) (Was remapping to 16.2)
58-4 - Think Again or ThinkToo(?) (Blank During HD) (Was remapping to 16.3)
58-5 - Simulcast of WPTO 14 analog (blank during HD) (Was remapping to 16.4)
58-6 - ThinkHD - (Blank when all 4 SD subchannels have programming) (Was remapping to 16.5, then changed to 16.6 before remapping via PSIP was dropped yesterday)

---------------

Since different receivers behave "differently" where this channel remapping stuff is concerned, you can easily see how it might be difficult for those at the station to know what is "going on" without input from us viewers when something "goes wrong" .... Personally, I'd just as soon DO AWAY with Channel remapping alltogether, and see the channels where they really are! While I think a big part of what channel remapping is "supposed" to do is help avoid confusion, I think what is actually happening is it is CREATING more confusion!

Nitewatchman

05-02-03, 02:05 PM

Ok, I went though and searched "by program" on the thinkTV website for HD/Widescreen showings this weekend, and this is what I came up with ... Don't know how accurate this will be, but it looks like this is how they have it scheduled -- IT Did work out they way it said for last night .... Hopefully, we'll get a much more convienant listing by day of their HD programming via their website sometime soon:

unless otherwise indicated, All programs below are HD from PBS :

Friday May 2 :

8pm - Manor House Pt 2 (Widescreen SD)
9pm - ?? Couldn't find the program that goes here ...
10pm - Manor House Pt 3 (Widescreen SD)

Saturday May 3:

6pm - Smarttravels Europe - "Burangdy and Loire"
6:30pm - Tracks Ahead - "Cable Cars"
7pm - Chef's Afield - "Birmingham, AL"
7:30pm - Smartravels Europe - "Berlin"
8pm - Nature: "Big Red Roos" - (Widescreen SD)
9pm - Manor House Pt 3 (Widescreen SD)
10pm - Nova: Japan's Secret Garden

Sunday May 4:

6pm - Smarttravels Europe - "Burgandy and Loire"
6:30pm - Tracks Ahead - "New Zealand"
7pm - Chef's Afield - "Seattle"
7:30pm - Smarttravels Europe - " Berlin"
8pm - Nature: "Animals Behaving Baldy (Widescreen SD)
9pm - PBS Hollywood presents "The Gin Game" (a Play, with Dick Van Dyke and Mary Tyler Moore) - 90 Minutes
10:30pm - Smarttravels Europe - "Berlin"
11pm - Nature "Animals Behaving Badly"(Widescreen SD) -- Note: This seems an odd listing, as I thought the "HD" would be off by 11pm ...

------------------------------------
Several of the above programs are also scheduled for other showings throughout next week/etc, and I would imagine will be joined by other programming (This takes too much time to keep doing this, searching 1 program at a time! - Again, hopefully we'll see a better listing on their website, or even TitanTV/etc soon!)

I'm glad they have "Tracks ahead", "Smarttravels" and "Chef's afield" listed, as these are programs I very much enjoyed in HD from WCET-DT Cincinnati, UNTIL the HD Mostly disappeared from WCET-DT a few weeks ago! I'm also looking foward to checking out "The Gin Game", although I'll probably have to wait for another showing, as I'll be watching "Alias" on Sunday at 9!

---------------------------------------------------------

BTW, I also did a search for "PBS HD Loop", and was surprised to find the following listings scheduled, as I had thought they would be switching off HD at 11pm (In other words, perhaps this is wrong)

PBS HD Loop
Monday 5/5 - 11pm
Monday 5/12 - 11pm
Monday 5/19 - 11pm
Monday 5/29 - 11pm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul210

05-02-03, 03:56 PM

Jeff,

Still not getting anything today with 58. The light turns green like there's something there, but it still displays "no signal". I can't manually enter any subchannels with this unit. I can directly input two digits. If there are subchannels, it shows it in the onscreen display, then I have to arrow through them with the remote to select them. Oh well, it's a cheap 1st generation Samsung. Other than this, it's been pretty flawless.

Is anyone else out there having any problems receiving WPTD-DT since they turned off remapping?

Paul

Jambino

05-02-03, 06:46 PM

I was having the same problem, but then I would just wait a few seconds, and it would pop up.

Nitewatchman

05-02-03, 08:04 PM

At 7:58pm, WPTD-DT is remapping to 16-x now via PSIP, the audio is working OK as well.... There is no 16-1 now, first subchannel is 16-2 So, hopefully it's working for all now ... Update 8pm, The big "E" and "EVertz" Bug is up on 16-6 along with "Manor house" in Widescreen SD ... Hopefully, they can get rid of those bugs soon(Evertz makes HD equipment, such as upconverters/etc) ... 8:02pm --- Video was missing for a couple minutes, but is back now ..

BTW, Jambino I checked out your HT website, Very nice setup!

Update: 8:10pm -- "Manor House" Video, but I believe we're now hearing the audio from the PBS HD Loop via the PBS DT2A sat feed now ... I do suppose it's difficult to monitor audio from more than 1 programming service at the same time ;)

update #2: 8:20pm -- Cool! I'm impressed, they caught it a couple minutes ago, and just switched to the correct audio feed for "manor house".

Paul210

05-03-03, 08:30 AM

I can receive them again, but something they did while enabling the PSIP locked up my receiver big time--several times.

Nitewatchman

05-03-03, 07:37 PM

"Chef's Afield" in HD has made me hungry although I already ate :)

Although they started out with the bugs tonight, They have since gotten rid of the "E" and "Evertz" Bugs, but I am getting a a/v synch issue tonight. Really looks good though.

------------------------------
Update 9:25pm : On another issue: concerning WDTN-DT tonight, I notice that they don't have HD for "Gladiator", while WCPO-DT Cincinnati does have it HD. I sent Jim at WDTN-DT a note, hopefully it's just a temporary issue .... It's the first time I've noticed ABC HD as missing from them.

I watched this in HD last year via ABC/WCPO-DT, and as then it looks very good tonight... I'm not really watching it tonight, but I have to wonder, unless they are cutting a large portion of the movie out, how they are squeezing the same presentation into 1 night, as the last time it ran in 2 parts over 2 nights ... And when I've checked it tonight, there have been plenty of commericals ...

Nitewatchman

05-04-03, 02:45 AM

WDTN-DT info --- Just received the following(I didn't think anyone else would still be awake<g>) from Jim Atkinson concerning the missing ABC HD tonight :

Jeff,

Sorry about the missing HD. We began running our master control from WISH in Indianopolis last Thursday and are experiencing a couple of problems. One problem is the one you noticed, the missing HD. Sometimes the auto-switch doesn't activate. We should have that corrected the first of the week.
Thanks for your interest and patience.

Jim Atkinson

buckeye1010

05-05-03, 06:42 AM

Thanks for the info. Yes, I had to re-scan the channels, and I then no longer had the 16.05 and 16.06 in HD. I just now get 16.06. I no longer get 16.01. I've never had a problem receiving audio, but it is low level. My audio set up is digital coax out of the Mits into the Yamaha (audio)receiver.

buckeye1010

05-05-03, 06:45 AM

oh yeah - audio sync is rather bad, but isn't too bad with those travel shows!

buckeye1010

05-05-03, 12:08 PM

I emailed with Mr Stone (Director of Engineering) at WPTD about the audio syncing problem. He basically said that they are still operating at a bit of a learning process and he expects everything to be perfect by 1 September.

He also said he will look at the low audio levels of the HD channel.

I asked him about DD5.1 and he said:

"We will have the capability to pass through what ever audio
scheme the respective programming has. We are
designing an 8 channel audio capability, per video channel. And, with two
stations, we'll have a combined 10 video channel
system."

Mr Stone seemed happy that I contacted him. I encourage everyone to send him a short reception report and tell him we're out here! His email address is: fred_stone@WPTD.pbs.org

Nitewatchman

05-05-03, 06:40 PM

Buckeye,

Thanks for the info. I think they are doing a fine job addressing the issues which have popped up so far, as well as giving us PBS HD, which I hope they can keep up indefinitely.

MAX HD

05-05-03, 11:32 PM

Jeff,

Dayton stations are stronger this evening than I've ever seen them.All Dt's are in with high 80's-low 90's,and the analogs are bleeding all over the band.Even Lp55 is almost snow-free [over]Dt-55 Lou,Ky.

Picking up now-Columbus 28,34 in and getting stronger.Maybe some new DT catches tonite!

Later,
GregB

Nitewatchman

05-06-03, 11:10 AM

Max,

Can you believe I was messing around with "tweaking" the HT Audio last night and I didn't even LOOK to see what conditions were like, even though the calm weather, humidity and Fog told me I should have been looking!

In the Wee hours of Sunday morning however I was seeing strong signals out of Indy around 3am(about as strong as they get through the hills) and Louisville later on, around 4am ... Some of the Louisville stations must have been off air in the wee hours, as I was seeing the weaker analogs(WBKI-CA/WBNA) and was about 1/2 way to a lock on WHAS-DT(it's DT snow was covering up WWRD-LP off the backside Completely -- usually, at the most it just "sparkles") ...

Jeff

Nitewatchman

05-06-03, 11:40 AM

Excellent!

HD listings, as well as listings for the Multicast services are now showing up On ThinkTV's Program Schedule listings(by day/time etc) Without having to search by program name.

The Listings are here:

http://www.thinktv.org/program/program.php

Nitewatchman

05-06-03, 02:18 PM

I've been perusing the new programming schedule for ThinkTV, I just customized my own HD schedule for the next week for 16.6 and printed it out! Very cool. (BTW, as listed, the PBS HD Demo Loop DID run last night from 11pm-12a).

Anyhow, I came across an HD listing of Special intrest, follows is the full program info from the ThinkTV website, air times are for the HD showings on 16.6 -- This should be intresting in HD! BTW, ThinkTV does list 3 HD Studio Cams as part of their production facilities ...
--------------------------------

Ohio: 200 Years

The dramatic story of Ohio's history. This documentary was produced in celebration of Ohio's bicentennial in collaboration with the Ohio Bicentennial Commission and Ohio's public television stations.

Running Time: 60 minutes

Airtimes: 5/8-9pm, 5/9-10pm, 5/11-9pm, 5/13-8pm, 5/22-8pm, 5/25-8pm, 6/2-8pm

Audio: Mono

HDTV: Yes

acs236

05-06-03, 08:03 PM

TWC has added the PBS HD stations.

Nitewatchman

05-06-03, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by acs236
TWC has added the PBS HD stations.

Cool! That didn't take long ...

Nitewatchman

05-08-03, 06:00 PM

Noticed that A/V was sycnhed nicely last night, for the most part from WPTD-DT. 1st time I had a chance to watch "The Gin Game", as the synch was off the first time via WPTD-DT, and it was "Silent HD" during WCET-DT's Cincy's Tuesday night showing. Anyhow, we really enjoyed it here. "Quality Television" as they say.

gindie

05-08-03, 11:51 PM

What are the channel number(s) for the PBS DTV on Time Warner? Do they carry all the sub-channels?

logic8482

05-10-03, 02:53 PM

TWC PBS Channels:

716 - WPTD HD, broadcasting HD sporadically (at night), when not HD only a blacnk screen.
717 - Think 16, digital, simulcast of PBS 16 I think.
718 - 16 Kids, digital, Kids PBS programming
719 - 16 Again, digital, not sure what the programming is
720 - Think 14, digital, simulcast of PBS 14 I Think.

The one program I saw on 716 Thursday night looked good. Digital channels (717-720) are NOT coming in widescreen for programs like Manor House, just as FOX (745) is not showing its widescreen programming either.

Nitewatchman

05-10-03, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by logic8482
TWC PBS Channels:
716 - WPTD HD, broadcasting HD sporadically, when not HD only a blacnk screen.

First off, Welcome to AVSforum, it's always great to see new members joining us from our area.

Secondly, I wouldn't exactly call WPTD-DT/ThinkTV's HD "sporadic", at least from What I've seen OTA. I would hope that is the case with cable as well, if not, let's hope it's a temporary technical issue.

WPTD-DT's HD Subchannel(a 16x9 1080i or 720p? ATSC format) has PBS HD/Widescreen Nightly, M-F 8-11pm, and 6-11pm on weekends. This is per info from their Chief Engineer, program director, AND it has been the case, at least OTA since they began "regular" operations on 5/1. They've also had the PBS HD demo loop last Monday from 11pm-12am, and it's scheduled to run the next 3 mondays in that time slot. <Update: Also, I notice they have Widescreen Presentation of Nature "Animals Behaving Badly" tonight beginning at 11pm, so it looks like some nights we'll get HD/Widescreen until Midnight or so > Anyhow, Hopefully, they'll be able to keep up their present HD schedule, AS the Cincinnati/N KY PBS stations aren't giving us anywhere near this amount of PBS HD these days.

ThinkTv's nifty programming schedule(has all their programming services listed -- They even have a way to do a "customized" schedule with detailed listings for just the HD subchannel(16.6)/HD programming up to a week ahead), is available here :

http://www.thinktv.org/program/program.php

When WPTD-HD subchannel has "PBS Digital SD Widescreen" programming "in lieu" of HD, the 16x9 SD source material is first upconverted to 1080i by PBS, then sent nationally over PBS's DT2A "HD" sat feed. WPTD-DT evidently has the ability to record this HD (or upconverted SD material), and timeshift into their HD programming time periods for airing on 16.6 OTA, and per Logic's info, on 716 via TWC Dayton.

Besides their HD subchannel(Which is where you want to watch the SD widescreen stuff as well, whenever possible), the other 4 Subchannels from WPTD-DT are in a 480i(p?) 4x3 ATSC SD format, just as is the case with WRGT-DT's(Fox Dayton), and WBDT-DT's(WB Dayton) single, 4x3 SD subchannel .... When these channels show "widescreen" material via these SD subchannels, it is letterboxed inside a 4x3 frame, which, not only looses lines of resolution since it is only using some of the lines of rez in the 4x3 frame, it also doesn't have the beneift of a professional upcoversion to HD resolutions as done by the Network, or at the station.

I find it interesting though that TWC Dayton Carries WRGT-DT, and TWC Cincy does not carry WXIX-DT(Fox Cincy) which DOES do Fox Widescreen ...In fact, WXIX-DT even upconverts it to 1080i first for broadcast .... LOL!

------------------------
Couple of other notes:

I don't know about the rest of you guys, and hopefully they'll get the issues worked out soon per the info I received and posted here last week from their Chief Engineer, BUT so far, I think I liked it better when Dayton, instead of Indy was taking care of the HD switching for WDTN-DT, as prior to the last week or so, I don't think I ever saw WDTN-DT miss the ABC HD. Toinght, they have a weather bug up, so they might not be able to do HD, and unfortunetly the same is true for WCPO-DT, ABC Cincy tonight for "The Green Mile", which looked excellent in HD last year Via ABC ....

I also noticed last night that CBS HD was "missing" from WHIO-DT for "Murder, She Wrote", but it was in HD via WKRC-DT Cincinnati ....

WKEF-DT has seemed much better about switching to the NBC HD feed as of late, although I've still noticed they aren't at 100%, especially for Leno ...WLWT-DT NBC Cincy, as usual is pretty much allways right on top of things where NBC HD is concerned ....

---------------

Nitewatchman

05-12-03, 10:16 PM

I hope it is some kind of switching snafu/etc, as compression artifacts are atrocious tonight on 16-6(WPTD-HD) : All 5 subchannels are up at the same time ...

logic8482

05-13-03, 12:04 AM

Nitewatchman is correct about channel 716. From what i saw in the program guide there is several hours of HD programming. When I said sporadic, I just meant that it is not on all day but rather just at certain times, (M-F 8-11pm, and 6-11pm on weekends) I guess. Otherwise it is just the blank screen.

I also don't understand why we are not getting FOX widescreen yet. Although the picture quality on 745 is improved over channel 8, it is not exactly enjoyable to watch! The other PBS channels are the same, better quality then the their regular cable counterparts, but still not anywhere near the quality obviously of 716 or NBC HD (722).

Paul210

05-14-03, 11:06 AM

Anyone have a clue what's going on over at WDTN? No HD for NYPD Blue for two weeks in a row now. I sent an email to Jim Atkinson asking him about it. I'll let everyone know when I get a reply.

Nitewatchman

05-14-03, 06:13 PM

Paul,

Yes, please post any info, as I'd be interested in any add'l info.

I posted info from Jim at WDTN concerning the lack of HD from them as of late a couple of weeks back here(on the last page of this thread):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2176261#post2176261

-----------
I did notice that one day last week they did have HD, but that's the only time I've seen them have HD in the past 2 weeks+, luckily however, except for "Gladiator" and the WX bugs last weekend, WCPO-DT Cincy has had all the ABC HD. Anyhow, So far, I liked it better when they were controlling WDTN from Dayton instead of Indy!

Paul210

05-14-03, 11:06 PM

Jeff,

It's exactly what you said. I guess I missed your post concerning WDTN. The following is the response from Jim Atkinson at WDTN:

I apologize for the missing HD broadcast. Beginning May 1 we began operating our Master Control from WISH in Indianapolis. The switching of the HD signal is remotely switched from there, and obviously, we are experiencing an equipment problem with the interface. We are working on it at present and hopefully will correct it shortly.

Thanks for your interest,

Jim Atkinson

Nitewatchman

05-20-03, 08:10 PM

WDTN-DT has ABC HD tonight(Tue 5/20), hopefully it's a "permanent" Fix ..

Noticed that WPTD-DT 58 (ThinkDTV/PBS) isn't remapping to 16-x today. BTW, IMO, they've been doing a fine job with their New Digital station and HD :)

BTW, not that it matters much being that we have no Fox Widescreen from them, and contrary to what Should be the case with "supposedly" component video via ATSC/etc as opposed to composite broadcast NTSC video, with good "pristine" analog reception of their analog station here, their analog still looks better than the digital ..... But anyhow, I'm Still getting WRGT-DT at lower "levels" off the meter's receivers than is normal, as has been the case the past couple of weeks. Not sure if it's a power issue, or something else(Which I am suspecting at this point) but, although my Zenith receiver is seeing them just fine(albeit at 1/2 scale, they normally "peg the meter"), I get blank screen via The RCA (DTC-100), and readings of 28~34. What's especially odd is that aiming my hi-gain antenna towards Dayton doesn't improve things over my low-gain Dayton antenna where WRGT-DT is concerned, currently.

dvdslut

05-21-03, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
But anyhow, I'm Still getting WRGT-DT at lower "levels" off the meter's receivers than is normal, as has been the case the past couple of weeks. Not sure if it's a power issue, or something else(Which I am suspecting at this point) but, although my Zenith receiver is seeing them just fine(albeit at 1/2 scale, they normally "peg the meter"), I get blank screen via The RCA (DTC-100), and readings of 28~34. What's especially odd is that aiming my hi-gain antenna towards Dayton doesn't improve things over my low-gain Dayton antenna where WRGT-DT is concerned, currently.

For me the WRGT-DT signal has degraded to a point where I can no longer get a lock. Been like that for a couple weeks.

WDTN-DT has also seemed "low" for a couple months. These days I can get a picture, but inevitably there are breakups and it's not worth watching (and listening to DD5.1) when I can get WCPO-DT. Compare this to the Super Bowl when the WDTN-DT signal was flawless.

jim

Nitewatchman

05-21-03, 03:10 PM

Jim,

Yes, I saw the same thing, It's been about 2 weeks since WRGT-DT has "changed" here. Right before it happened, I had noticed they were off the air(or appeared as such) the morning/evening beforehand.

I haven't noticed any changes signal wise here from any of the other Dayton/Cincy stations besides from WKOI-DT as compared to wintertime, which I think is due to the leaves coming on and the Forest I have in that direction(Leaves are RF absorbers), In combination with the terrain blockage issue I have with WKOI-DT, and their antenna height and radiation pattern which doesn't send much RF energy my way --- Intstead, most of it is aimed towards their Community of License, Richmond, IN -- Some 25-30 Miles away from their tower.

When it is really windy outside though, although I still don't get dropouts, the meter fluctuates a little more on WDTN-DT/WKEF-DT and WPTD-DT when I'm using my low gain Dayton antenna(doesn't happen with my more directional HI-gain yagi if I aim it towards Dayton) --- Doesn't affect the other DT's which are on lower frequencies, so, I figure all the trees and limbs moving around close to me that are in the signal path are affecting the signal propagation + multipath conditions much more on higher UHF frequencies.

Nitewatchman

05-23-03, 12:10 PM

WSYX-DT 13, ABC Columbus has recently improved it's facilities(They put the DT antenna on top of their tower, and increased power/etc beginning 5/20), So I wondered if anyone in Dayton is Pulling them in now?

Here, at 78 Miles from their Tower, I've been getting fairly consistant 1/8-1/4 scale readings from WSYX-DT since 5/20 --- I was also able to receive Solid reception(DT log #31 from this location) from them This morning(dropped back below a lock at 10:30am), with a little "tropo help" .... Given that I'm seeing an indication of a consistant signal from them, I would think that those a little closer, or at a higher elevation than I am, as I'm down in a valley) might have a shot at reception of WSYX-DT ..

Nitewatchman

05-24-03, 08:29 PM

FYI,

At 8:00-8:25pm WDTN-DT appears to be off the air. Not sure how long they've been down, but they were up this afternoon.

Guess I'll have to aim the High gain antenna towards Columbus to see If I can get ABC HD tonight(probably won't happen, guess I'll tune to "16 HD" instead), as WCPO-DT is showing local SD programming instead of "Anna and the King" in HD, even though the last programming newsletter from WCPO-DT indicated "Anna and the King" would be in HD ...

Sigh ... 3rd Saturday in a row we've had "hd problems" from both the Dayton and Cincinnati ABC affiliates ...

p.s. -- Granted, not that it's all "important" that I see this movie in HD tonight BUT I like to check these things out because I realize these things could happen at ANY time ....

Paul210

05-31-03, 09:15 AM

That constant 'blip' in the sound on WHIO-DT is getting annoying. It's been doing it for at least the past week. Normally I would just switch to WKRC-DT, but I haven't been able to receive them since the maple tree from hell sprouted leaves.

Paul210

05-31-03, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
WSYX-DT 13, ABC Columbus has recently improved it's facilities(They put the DT antenna on top of their tower, and increased power/etc beginning 5/20), So I wondered if anyone in Dayton is Pulling them in now?

Jeff,

I had a lock on WSYX-DT last night. I was surprised I did get a lock as it only showed one to two bars on the "signal strength meter".

Paul

Nitewatchman

05-31-03, 03:23 PM

Paul,

Excellent On your WSYX-DT(78 Miles from me) Reception! I'd think you are also not too much closer than I am from them. With only slightly improved(over "normal" deadband conditions) and somewhat unstable conditions, last night, I was having intermittant reception from them, ranging from just below to just above a lock whereas, much of the last week, given just a bit of "stable" atmospheric enhancement I've had pretty stable reception from them at night/early morning, otherwise, I'm still getting about 1/4 way to a lock or so under deadband, or mostly deadband conditions ...

It's really been my first chance to see first hand just how well DTV reception can work from such a distance given an adequetely powered/etc. station on a more or less completely "clean" frequency(in that direction), and it looks like they are putting out an excellent signal into here for being beyond line of sight at 78 Miles! My guess is, If it were necessary, and I worked on it enough(With cut-to channel Yagi's and perhaps more height/etc), I could probably find a way to pull them in all the time with good reception.

-----------

On your WKRC-DT reception issue, hard to say, but given what I know of your receiving location and what I've experienced here lately with WKRC-DT 31(and peraps somewhat possibly a "related" issue with WRGT-DT 30 which may be a "contributing factor" as well) as per my post on this issue in the Cincy thread, I suspect it's something other than the leaves(although they could be a contributing factor, I'd think) which is causing the change in WKRC-DT reception for you.

I noticed what appears to be a drop in the WKRC-DT signal at around the same time as the lightning strike at WKRC, which also happened to be the same time when WRGT-DT reception changed here. There are reports from Jim In Oxford and myself earlier in this thread where the change in WRGT-DT is concerned. It's hard to say but I suspect, where your current WKRC-DT reception issue is concerned, it might be something other(possibly a combination of things, perhaps with the leaves being a small factor involved as well) than leaves causing the problem.

It wasn't a gradual change I noticed from WKRC-DT (as was also the case with WRGT-DT), before the "incidences" mentioned above, they were as they have been for the last year+, the next time I checked the situation had changed and is as it remains now ... I believe this occured about 3 weeks ago, after all the leaves had come on, and I certianly have a lot of leaves here too! Although the readings on my meters have only dropped a little from WKRC-DT when the antenna is aimed at Cincinnati, where I most notice the change is :

I usually(Incluing all of last summer) receive WKRC-DT just about "omni-directionally" even with a quite directional antenna(As WKRC-DT usually has a much stronger signal than the antenna can "reject" off the back/sides/etc), and even when the antenna is moving while being rotated ... Of course though, Multipath destroys the analog counterpart(as is the case with other stations in this regard) if antenna is aimed much more than 10 degrees off target.

Furthermore, With my Dayton, Lo-gain antenna(aimed towards Dayton, permanenetly - and again, for the past 1.5 years throughout all seasons), up until the last few weeks WKRC-DT came in with Solid "76" readings. However, since "whatever it is" that has changed has happened, I get 15~22 readings off the Dayton antenna and no lock from WKRC-DT, which is about the same, or "in between" what I get from WSTR-DT and WXIX-DT off the lo-gain Dayton antenna, whereas, WLWT-DT/WCET-DT(since they've increased power)/WCPO-DT generally come in off the Dayton antenna with "almost" perfect reception, ranging between 40% and 70% scale.

Of course, seeing how far you can aim the antenna off target and still receive a mostly-dropout free signal isn't a "foolproof" method to check signals, since terrain/signal blockage issues, multipath as well as certian spots where the antenna is particularly good about rejecting signals off the sides/etc(among other things) are factors, but, I'm not surprised that the results I see "normally" pretty much perfectly match the following two things all year round, unless something "funky" is happening :

1). The station's facilities(power/antenna height/radiation pattern/etc)

2.) My distance from them relative to their antenna height.

"Normally"(prior to last 3 weeks), on the high gain rotatable antenna, WKRC-DT(800KW ERP - 33 Miles) comes in fine with almost any antenna heading, Which is "almost" the case with WLWT-DT(512 KW ERP)/WCPO-DT(13.7KW ERP, but on VHF) and now, WCET-DT(215 KW ERP) Comes in well on the lo-gain Dayton antenna as well most of the time, WXIX-DT(229KW ERP) works about 90~100 degrees or so off target(a bit more of a terrain issue may affecting things a little more here with WXIX-DT), WSTR-DT(17.1KW ERP) from about 60 degrees off target, and WCVN-DT(53.5 KW ERP, but with a transmitting antenna height, much lower than the others, and also my most distant local DT) Is only receivable within 30 degrees heading of their tower, which was about the exact case with WCET-DT when they were at Low power, 7KW ERP, albeit from a closer and higher transmitting antenna ...

Anyhow, Since leaves are RF absorbers and when they do affect things significantly enough to be an issue, it's usually the case they are more of an issue the higher the frequency, and the weaker the signal. Again, it's hard to say since "strange things" do happen and these things can be very location and frequency specific/etc, and also, as leaves can block reflected signals and therefore one may have more multipath to deal with when they fall off, or, vice versa, when leaves are on, they can block direct signal paths and you might get a different "balance" in the multipath situation with leaves are on ... However, again given your receiving situation, even though at your distance such things as leaves would probably be more of an issue than is the case here, I suspect that the leaves aren't attenuating the signal to too much of a degree from WKRC-DT(or the other Cincy stations), and I also doubt a "multipath/leaves issue" is much, if any issue in your sitiation.

Given what I know of your situation, (although again, it's really hard to make an accurate guess since there are so many variables, and that's all this is, just a guess), I'd suspect if the leaves were a problem with WKRC-DT for you, they would also be affecting the other Cincy DT's(much less so WCPO-DT however). Especially so since(up until the past few weeks)here, it has been quite appaerent(through "various means of "investigation) that WKRC-DT has put out the Strongest UHF signal out of Cincinnati, and their antenna is just as high(or higher) than the others/etc, but this "strongest signal out of Cincy" from WKRC-DT "seems" to be no longer the case. I would expect if any signal out of Cincy which you are getting is being affected to a significant degree by the leaves on your nearby tree in that direction, it would most likely be most noticiable from WSTR-DT(18KW ERP), or WCVN-DT(53KW ERP) rahther than WKRC-DT's "normal" 800KW ERP signal.

-------------

As to what's causing the change here at my location, it's hard to say, and I really wouldn't want to guess except to do some wild speculating. I haven't contacted the stations on this as my WKRC-DT reception is still very good, and I'm still getting WRGT-DT fine on one receiver(not that it matters much without Fox Widescreen and good quality video from WRGT-DT. Furthermore, I've been "waiting to see what happens", and from a receiving standpoint, it's a bit difficult to explain the situation as "a bone-fide issue" to station personel without better monitoring/test equipment on the receiving end ... ...

But, (as for the wild speculating) I suspect either WKRC-DT 31 is putting out a weaker signal than normal, and/or, possibly due to equipment "changes" at one or the other station, there is now some sort of 1st adjacent channel issue now occuring among WRGT-DT 30 and WKRC-DT. Although, at first glance of the signal meter it appears that WRGT-DT is putting out less signal than normal,(contrary to what seems to be the case with WKRC-DT) further investingation seems to indicate that where my reception of WRGT-DT is concerned, it's perhaps more of an issue that perhaps either that there has been an increase in data error rate, or, I suppose it's even possible the receiver isn't perhaps able to quite tune "exactly" to WRGT-DT for some reason ...

Anyhow, Hope this bit of "guessing around" helps, I'll try to remember to post something when and if WKRC-DT/WRGT-DT returns to "normal" here ...

Paul210

05-31-03, 04:15 PM

I can't get WXIX-DT anymore either. That's why I figured it was the trees. But I always get a lock on WSTR-DT (and WLWT-DT and WCET-DT as well). Go figure!

Nitewatchman

05-31-03, 05:48 PM

Paul,

Interesting ... At your distance from the Cincy station,(55 miles or so I believe from most of the Cincy Tower - BTW, WSTR/DT tower is North of the others, and about 5-6 miles closer to us), any change is probably going to be seen by you more so than I can detect here, probably pretty difficult to figure out the reasons sometimes though!

The signal from WXIX-DT does seem to change here a bit, although it's always solid and steady "per day", it sometimes seems to change a bit from day to day ....of course, they go down and come back up on a daily basis, not sure what sort of "transmitter tuning" is involved with their equipment ...

Lately(the past couple of months perhaps+), "In general", it seems more like it was prior to December or so --- Which is, I get less than a lock off them off my Dayton antenna, and "on target" with the Cincy antenna about 2/3+ scale on the Zenith Receiver ... Which is about the same as I'm getting from WKRC-DT presently, while before, Both stations pretty much "pegged the meter", and WXIX-DT Was close to matching WCET-DT on the Dayton antenna --- Which is, Most of the time, about 10-15% or so above a lock ....

Seems like less of a difference here though with WXIX-DT than is the case with WKRC-DT presently, and I think WXIX-DT has been "generally" different since before the leaves I beleive --- and fairly consistantly, although some days "out of the blue" they seem back to their Jan-feb Signal .... Hard for me to guess on what's going on with them though, (The change might even be the leaves here, although I'm pretty sure I'd even seen these "levels" from them even before the leaves came on at all on occasion, with a "calm" atmosphere/etc), as the difference in signal doesn't seem to be as much of a change ... and, although the difference in WXIX-DT seemed to "generally" have happened even earlier, it is after all, also on a 1st adjacent channel to WRGT-DT 30 as well ....

WXIX DT and analog will probably have to power down due to regs when they are working on WPTO-DT, which is going on their tower as well ... That's probably going to happen sometime soon, I'd think, as WPTO-DT currently expects to be up by late July ...

I guess we'll see what happens! I think It does help to have at least an entire year of checking the signals to see what sort of effect leaves and such have on your reception --- makes it a little easier to guage if it's something on the transmitting end, or "enviornmental factors"Probably a little easier to gauge with the analogs though, with WXIX-DT especially over the last year, they've done so many things "differently" it's hard to say what's what!

Jeff

buckeye1010

06-03-03, 08:21 PM

Please - someone else tell me that they can't pick up 41.02, also! All I can get is 41.01 - with black bars or HD, when they are doing it.

Nitewatchman

06-03-03, 09:19 PM

Buckeye,

Yes, Thank goodness WHIO-DT dropped their 2nd SD subchannel over the weekend. I haven't checked on the HT to see what the HD looks like, but hopefully they are giving HD everything possible now, and aren't datacasting as well.

Paul210

06-04-03, 08:46 AM

Now if we could only get rid of those blue lines! Baby steps....baby steps!

gindie

06-06-03, 10:35 PM

Anybody have luck with a Radio Shack double bow-tie in the Pipestone Golf course area of Springboro/Miamisburg? I took mine to a buddy's house in the Hidden Creek development, no digital signal whatsoever. I put the antenna outdoors, nothing. Is this a particularly challenging area? I would have expected to receive at least some signal from the Dayton transmitters.

Nitewatchman

06-13-03, 09:40 PM

Gindie,

I can't imagine why that area would be a problem for OTA reception ... I do recall there was a post from the Springboro area(from a couple of years back, on a different thread), and good results were obtained from the Cincy DTV Stations with a DBT sitting outside ...(None of the Dayton DTV stations were on the air at that time) ...

"Just in Case", are you sure you didn't have a "feedline problem", or that the receiver was set to scan the OTA TV frequencies instead of the Cable ones? If it was set to "Cable"(perhaps it could have defaulted to "Cable" if the receiver was unplugged for any period of time, or if it had never been used/etc), then UHF stations(which all the Dayton DTV's are) wouldn't show up ....

Just "grasping at straws" in case it helps ...

mcallister

06-14-03, 11:56 AM

Does anyone know if the ESPN HD channel may be picked up by TW cable anytime soon?

Paul210

06-15-03, 10:16 PM

Anyone notice a MUCH stronger signal from WCPO-DT? Or is it just tropo?

Paul

Nitewatchman

06-20-03, 08:29 PM

WPTD-DT (ThinkTV/PBS Dayton) Has been off air all day today/Tonight, No Widescreen from WXIX-DT Cincy for "Fastlane" at 8pm, and of course, no widescreen from WRGT-DT ...

Just wondering, with WPTD-DT off air, are Dayton TW cable HD customers still getting WPTD-DT and PBS HD/Widscreen tonight?

Concering WRGT-DT, I received a follow up response from them concerning their "recent" problems(which we've been discussing recently on the Cincinnati Thread). Follows is their response from one of their Engineers:

Hello Jeff,

The short of it is, the modulator lost it's corrections. Please feel free to
contact me whenever you see a problem with our signal. This is new to all of us and the learning curve is steep so, again THANK YOU for your input. Oh, by the way you are not the only one watching, there's twelve of you out the there.

Thanks again.

Thom Fowler

----------------------------------------------

So, it might be a good idea to let them know you're watching and want Fox widescreen, and that there are more than 12 of us out here .... I'm sure that was a joke, but being that there are relatively few of us out here, I think it might help(It couldn't hurt) if everyone drops every digital station they receive a note(or a call) at least once and let them know you, and your family are watching their digital station/HD/etc ...

mcallister

06-21-03, 01:16 PM

That's kind of bad business philosophy in my opinion. Even if it is a joke.

Nitewatchman

06-21-03, 01:52 PM

Breedingamies,

I certianly agree with you. Not even getting into FCC "requirements" for keeping the operation "to specs" where interference issues/etc, are concerned, If there is even a chance 1 person is watching(and I'd think that would allways be the case), I think these stations should strive to provide good service, as DTV/HD IS a service we expect, whether the broadcasters like it or not.

Folks like us and those coming in the future who purchase HD displays and receivers expect good service(and should, even though we are often called "early adopters") and shouldn't have to care how many others are watching.

In addition to comments such as "noone is watching", I often here comments such as, "well, we don't make any money off the sales of DTV receivers", or, "The FCC is making us do it/etc", when instead, IMO broadcasters should be trying to make the most of this new service. Having a signal on the air in order to meet FCC requirements, and even HD(even though HD isn't required, we "expect" HD/Widescreen programming too), as without it, there is little benefit to DTV for most of us) on the air is not enough I don't think ...They IMO they need to be promoting it in any way they can .. Instead of "wishing it will go away", which it won't. As a wise man once said, Broadcasters will either take control, or at least get on the "DTV Bus", or they will get run over by it.

Still, nevertheless, If stations don't get calls and complaints when something goes wrong or they go off air/etc., they tend to think noone is watching, and sometimes this seems to lower the level of "service" in some cases that I've noticed. They know, with analog, a certian number of people will call them if something goes wrong(hence, you see a "technical difficulties" message within a few seconds of a problem with analog), and they expect the same thing to happen with digital, which most likely isn't the case ...

Of course most of us will just change the channel if we're actually trying to watch something rather than mess around with contacting the station, and since DTV viewers have analogs to "fall back on"(in addition to stations in other markets providing HD/etc) as well, Stations should keep this in mind when trying to calculate the number of viewers by the amount of complaints/etc. they get.

Also, of course, many times these stations have a hard time making "ends meet", and therefore having to maintain two stations(analog and digital) -- in WRGT/WKEF'S case, it is 4 Stations), can be quite a drain on budgets and the engineering staff's "nerves" etc. Also, keep in mind, the Engineer's etc,(who are often the ones we talk to), have the job of making everything work with little "resources" available, they don't make the decisions on approving the expenses for HD/"High power"/etc, and I'm afraid they often get the "flack" from viewers when they don't deserve it ... That's why, while it's good to make our feelings known when something is "lacking", it's also good to do it in a polite way ....

One more comment I have on this, I had hoped for a good explanation of what went wrong at WRGT-DT, in hopes that I could save some time and effort(on mine, and the stations part) should I see something similar happening elsewhere, but the explanation I received makes absolutely no sense to me, and therefore wasn't very helpful ...Oh, well ...

I do wonder if we would see these sorts of transmission problems if there was a FCC monitoring station near Dayton ... I believe the nearest one is almost 400 Miles away in Northern Michigan ...Furthermore, Regardless of how many people are watching, Stations must operate with the facilities as approved under their operating permits from FCC. "We turned down the power to save on Utility bills because no one is watching" is NOT a valid excuse FCC will accept, or grant a STA for ... Now, from my understanding, they are very understanding when Technical problems/etc. cause "issues", as these can sometimes be sticky things, and as long as a station does it's best to Keep on top of, and correct problems, I think this is as it should be ...

Nitewatchman

06-21-03, 02:16 PM

At 2:15pm(6/21), WPTD-DT(ThinkTV/PBS Dayton) Is back on the air ..

HJustin

06-24-03, 03:54 PM

Do we have a list of contact information for the various stations? I plan on calling/emailing them frequently if necessary once I'm set up in the next few weeks.

Thanks,

HJ

Nitewatchman

06-24-03, 05:50 PM

HJ,

Thanks. You can find contact info for the stations on their websites.

HJustin

06-25-03, 06:13 PM

Is there a definitive list of what HDTV station Time Warner is currently carrying? I've called half a dozen times and each customer service person has given me a different answer. I'm about to have a stroke.

1. HBOHD, SHOWTIMEHD: confirmed and they're on their channel line-up lists.

2. PBS: One lady told me these HD channels resided in the 600 range. Another told me if I tuned in to the existing PBS stations when an HD show was airing, I would see it in HD.

3. ABC, NBC, FOX: Just tune into channels 8, 9, or 11 when an HD program is airing and I'll see the HD version (with an HDTV cable box, of course).

4. Discovery-HD: Channel 50--sometimes this is in HD.

I've asked to be directed to someone responsible for Time Warner HD in the Dayton market on several occasions and I've been told there is no one to speak to. I'm also trying to determine what HD box Time Warner Dayton is currently providing. I've been told Scientific Atlanta and Pioneer with no model numbers.

Does anyone really know what's happening with TW Dayton HD? If I can't find some concrete information soon, I'm going to be a dish customer very soon.

Thanks,

Justin

Nitewatchman

06-26-03, 02:56 PM

Justin,

Hopefully someone with TW HD in Dayton can soon post updated info which will hopefully better help answer some of your questions than I can, however, you can also find info on HD from TWC Dayton from posters with TW HD in Dayton on previous pages of this thread.

From what I recall from previous posters here with Dayton TW HD, last I heard, I do believe they have HBO-HD and Showtime HD available. I can't say for sure, but I'm skeptical of the accuracy of the info you have gotten from the TW rep, especially so where some of the the "channel tuning" info that was provided to you is concerned, and also, One thing I do know is, you won't get HD or even "Fox Widescreen" from the Fox Dayton station, which I'm fairly sure is what TW Dayton has available.

Concerning the local digital Over-the-air broadcast stations/networks, the last I heard the following 3 stations are what TW Dayton offers, along with notes on the general "quality of service" we get from these stations :

WKEF-DT (NBC HD) - Although "in general" they've gotten better about it lately, They are sometimes quite sporadic about providing NBC HD - Last night when I checked Leno for example, it was 4x3 SD on WKEF-DT, whearas the HD for Leno was fine from the Cincinnati NBC HD station. This station is owned by Sinclair broadcasting, so it's a bit of a miracle we get HD from them at all, considering Sinclair stations HD "record". I do believe it is because of folks at the station that we are getting NBC HD from them. I believe their switching is manual, however, so sometimes they need to be called and reminded to "flip the HD switch".

WRGT-DT (Fox Digital) -- They Don't Do any Fox widescreen or HD however, it's 4x3 480i SD 0nly. I wouldn't hold my breath for widescreen or Fox HD.(when Fox starts doing HD within the next year or so that is). This station is also controlled by Sinclair, BTW.

WPTD-DT (PBS/Think TV). WPTD-DT has HD in the evenings, at which time they drop to a single SD subchannel(simulcast of 16 analog) along with the HD -- Which still isn't really "enough" bandwidth for HD to look it's best(free from compression artifacts). The rest of the time, they have 4 SD channels/programming services. From my understanding of previous posts from TW HD customers, they provide all these subchannels/programming services when available.

Concerning the other Dayton HD/Digital stations that are on the air(pretty much all of them are), the last I heard, WDTN-DT(ABC HD Dayton) and WHIO-DT (CBS HD Dayton) were still in "negotiations" with TW for HD carriage, but hopefully they've added them by now. Without info from someone who has TW HD in Dayton however, I wouldn't count on it though. Don't have any info on WBDT-DT Dayton(WB - Owned by ACME) and TW, but, WBDT-DT is like WRGT-DT, they only do 4x3 480i SD, so there is little benefit over getting their analog station.

Also, although Dayton area Cable does carry some Cincinnati analog stations(at least they used to), and, they are well within Cincy stations "grade B" signal contours, I don't believe Dayton cable carries any of the Cincinnati Digital stations. However, most locations(South of I-70) in Dayton should have good luck pulling in most of the Cincinnati area stations given a decent outdoor antenna setup, and locations around, or East of I-675 should have a good shot at Columbus. These are the Cincy digital stations which should be receivable from Dayton:

WCPO-DT (ABC HD + a Local HD demo loop/etc. occasionally)

WKRC-DT (CBS HD, "usually" Paramount's HD One Movies, occasioanal Local HD demo loops, and for the Last two years, an excellent Multicamera(8) HD production of the WEBN/Riverfest Fireworks in Cincinnati .

WXIX-DT (Fox Widescreen(480p) and hopefully Fox HD In the next year or so, when Fox makes it available/etc)

WCET-DT (PBS HD/Multicasting - not much PBS HD except tuesday nights, unfortunetly - They've also shown a couple of locally produced HD programs, one of which I recall was on Tall Stacks 99' in Cincinnati)

WLWT-DT (NBC HD)
WSTR-DT (WB - 480i SD only, no HD unfortunetly - Owned by Sinclair, BTW)

WPTO-DT (PBS/ThinkTV) Is not on the air yet, but last I talked with them, they have plans for PBS HD/Multicasting, I believe with a different schedule/programming services than what is the case on WPTD-DT Dayton -- They will be broadcasting from WXIX Cincy's tower, and should be fairly easily receivable from Dayton. Last I heard, they planned on being on the air by late summer 2003.

WCVN-DT (KET/PBS) in Covington, KY is probably out of range for most in Dayton, except perhaps for those in high spots and/or with hi-gain antenna setups ...

WKOI-DT (TBN - religious - No HD) Richmond, IN(tower near Oxford, Ohio) is probably not very receivable from Dayton currently as they are using a very directional transmittingantenna which favors only their community of License, Richmond, In, which is some 30 Miles Northwest of their tower.

The UPN Cincinnati station does not have a seperate DTV channel allocation from the FCC, they will probably switch to digital/HD only at some point when they feel there are enough digital viewers(probably be quite a few years though), and drop their analog service at that time.

--------------
Columbus wise, the following stations are probably currently reachable from I-675 or farther east:

WWHO-DT Chillocothe( UPN/WB, and Paramount's HD-One Movie package -- WITH WB HD, and I assume will Have UPN HD when it becomes available)
WBNS-DT Columbus (CBS HD)
WSYX-DT Columbus (ABC HD)
WCMH-DT Columbus (NBC HD)

The PBS station in Columbus is not yet on the air, The Fox Station is currently at low power and thus would probably be difficult to receive from Dayton/Springfield area on a regular basis, with plans to go to high power in 6~12 Months. The Fox station does do Fox Widescreen currently however, although I believe it is at 480i 16x9.

-------------

Concerning HD from dish or directTV, keep in mind, You can't presently(or for the forseeable future) get HD/DTV locals, or HD from the broadcast networks via the sat dish, you'll need OTA/antenna for HD from CBS, NBC, PBS/etc.

While I believe Dish network does(or used to) carry at least the CBS HD feed, You need a waiver from the local CBS station in order to receive it, and I doubt if WHIO-DT would be willing to comply. Although, I don't know why one would not want to receive their HD locals OTA, as there are no monthly bills, and the hardware requirements(antenna, STB -- Which you'll have anyway for OTA if you go the DBS route) are about the same as a year or less of cable subscription, and yet the setup(outdoor directional antenna recommended, with rotor if necesssary) will last for decades(barring disaster).

Hope some of this helps, Let us know how it turns out, once you can relax and enjoy some HD, I think you'll find all these headaches to be "worth it" ...

RLC2

06-26-03, 02:59 PM

Justin -

I have an HDTV box (Scientific Atlanta, don't remember the model number) from TWC, had it for about 2 months. I live just outside Springfield, but I think the TW service is the same.

1. Sure enough, HBO and Showtime HDTV channels exist. I have HBO (it's on channel 314), it mirrors the Eastern broadcast.

2. I believe the PBS HDTV channel is 714. There are some other PBS channels above that, but they are in Standard Definition.

3. NBC is on channel 722. It's in HD when they remember to turn it on. Jay Leno is VERY impressive when they do! Fox is on channel 745. But as others have said, it really isn't high def. ABC and CBS??? Not there yet, unless they are hiding somewhere I haven't looked.

4. I really haven't stared at channel 50 long enough to know if it ever goes to HD. But I doubt it. That would mean that the channel could not be used by NON-HD viewers (I think). It explains why the HD versions of the other channels have their own channel numbers (HBO, SHOWTIME, NBC, etc).

I haven't found anyone in the Springfield TW office that knows anything either. And I'd sure like to know when CBS and ABC will be added.

Good luck to us all
Dick

HJustin

06-26-03, 08:25 PM

Jeff and Dick:

Thank you very much for the thorough replies. It would appear that there will be some HD content for me to enjoy once I finally make up my mind on which set to purchase. This will all be happening in the next week or two. I'm really excited, and even if HD conditions aren't ideal in our area, I can still enjoy an excellent DVD picture in the mean time.

Thanks again. :)

Justin

toshman

07-01-03, 11:27 AM

It just appeared today on TWC channel 755. So far no picture though. Can anyone confirm? I had heard that this was a national rollout for TWC.

RLC2

07-03-03, 09:39 PM

It's ALIVE!

The Discovery channel showed up WORKING tonight (755) and it's beautiful! This and the PBS channel show what real HD is all about. They make DVD's look ordinary. Now when CBS and ABC show up, we'll be in business!

Curt Jett

07-04-03, 11:09 AM

Is the Discovery channel working for the Cincinnati area of TWC yet? What channel if so? Also, for the two months or so that I have used TWC, WCET-HD PBS is always shown as off air.

Nitewatchman

07-04-03, 11:33 AM

Curt,

You might get a better response to your Cincy TWC questions in the Cincy thread instead of here ..

Not sure if this is the "exact" issue you're having with WCET-DT, however, HD is very sparse from WCET-DT ... They seem more interested in being the provider(To TWC digital(not necessarily HD) to digital cable customers of their multiple(4) SD programming services -- PBS kids, "CET You", Etc. ... In fact, they told me this very thing, as they feel they can reach 150,000 cable households with their SD services, and only a few thousand cable+OTA with HD ...

WCET-DT only has programming(HD) on its HD subchannel at certian times, ... For instance, last night from 10-11pm "Soundstage"(Tom Petty) was in HD on 48-1 (948 for TWC I think), and that's the only hour of HD they had yesterday ... "Ohio:200 Years" is the only thing scheduled today/tongiht in HD from them, at 9:30pm. The rest of the time, the HD subchannel is "shut off" and they provide 4 SD subchannels(OTA and To Cincy TWC folks),

Tuesday nights are usually the Big nights for HD from WCET-DT, otherwise, HD is very "spotty" from them ... It's a little "clunky"(You can only look at one day at a time), but you can view their HD schedule here:

http://www.wcet.org/schedule/index.asp?channel=2

WPTD-DT Dayton on the other hand, has PBS HD nightly (usually 8-11pm weekdays, 6-11pm weekends) and, if you still have your OTA setup, WPTD-DT(and WCET-DT too) are receivable from Middletown area as are 11~12 other Cincy/Dayton area digital Stations, 10 of which Do HD or Fox widescreen presently (The one with Fox Widescreen, WXIX-DT "Fox Cincy" is currently Off air with transmitter problems however) ... ...

Anyhow, WPTD-DT/ThinkTV has a excellent programming schedule on their website, you can even easily select the HD channel, and print out/view a listing "customized to your preferences" w/detailed descriptions for a week ahead .. Thier Schedule is Here:

http://www.thinktv.org/program/program.php

Nitewatchman

07-06-03, 09:55 PM

Well, I wonder how long it will take until WKEF-DT realizes they have no audio on their HD subchannel ... At least, during SD upconverts, there has been no Audio on 51-1 since Thursday or Friday ... haven't had a a chance to see if the Audio is there during HD ...

I also noticed that they didn't have HD for Leno everytime I looked the past week+ ... However, even with the Tennis stuff/Leno Delay, WLWT-DT Cincy did have Leno in HD every night last week ..

Speaking of Missing HD, No HD for "Wild Wild West" from WHIO-DT tonight, it is in HD from WKRC-DT ...

Paul210

07-07-03, 09:42 AM

WPTD-DT HD16 (16-6 ota) had a Tom Petty and The Heartbreakers concert on Soundstage last night. If any of you get a chance to see it in the future, it looks and sounds good and was very entertaining, in my opinion. It looks like they're broadcasting part one of the concert again tonight at 9:00.

Paul

Curt Jett

07-07-03, 11:32 AM

Thanks Jeff,
You are probably right about the issue that I am having. I was never able to receive WCET OTA with my Dish 6000 so I pretty much gave up on it. I will try to remember to check this Tuesday to catch something on WCET.

I have been very impressed so far with TWC. I would have bet that they would never convince me to switch to cable but so far I'm getting much better PQ and lots more shows with surround sound. I never really complained about PQ with Dish or Direct TV before, tho sometimes one or the other at times seemed better, but it has been quite good with cable so far.

Curt

acs236

07-07-03, 12:16 PM

I just discovered :) this one myself. I completely agree. This is a great channel. High quality content in both form and substance!

Originally posted by RLC2
It's ALIVE!

The Discovery channel showed up WORKING tonight (755) and it's beautiful! This and the PBS channel show what real HD is all about. They make DVD's look ordinary. Now when CBS and ABC show up, we'll be in business!

Nitewatchman

07-07-03, 01:13 PM

Curt,

Since you've got them via Cincy TWC, not that it matters much, but WCET-DT did increase power very substantially recently(from 7KW ERP to 216KW ERP), which should have greatly improved reception for those who were having problems with them.

Paul,

I enjoyed the Tom Petty "soundstage" as well. "16 HD" aired it in HD last Thrusday as well, Coinciding with the SD feed on 16-2 and 16 analog (was on WCET at the same time too) ...

There are a couple of threads on the PBS "Soundstage" series in the programming area, I'm definetly looking forward to seeing many of the future performances in HD from Chicago, Doobie Bros, Union Station/etc ... I've still yet to notice any DD 5.1 from "16 HD" however, and I haven't noticed it lately from WCET-DT either, although they used to do DD 5.1 on occasion ...

MisterDTV

07-09-03, 09:07 AM

Well, now they know. I informed the Chief & Asst. Eng. I am awaiting status.

In the future (if you wish) you may write to:

"Mr. DTV" (dtv@sbgi.net)

Take care!

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Well, I wonder how long it will take until WKEF-DT realizes they have no audio on their HD subchannel ... At least, during SD upconverts, there has been no Audio on 51-1 since Thursday or Friday ... haven't had a a chance to see if the Audio is there during HD ...

I also noticed that they didn't have HD for Leno everytime I looked the past week+ ... However, even with the Tennis stuff/Leno Delay, WLWT-DT Cincy did have Leno in HD every night last week ..

Speaking of Missing HD, No HD for "Wild Wild West" from WHIO-DT tonight, it is in HD from WKRC-DT ...

DrDon

07-09-03, 09:14 AM

Mr DTV
Sure am hoping you get some attention. I sent two letters and made a phone call.. and that was MONDAY. Previously, I got someone in the newsroom who told me to call the cable company. "They're the only people around here with a channel 51." I pressed on, explaining digital television and she said, "Oh, yeah. I did hear something about that."

Makes me wonder about their NEWS. <g>

Doc

update: As of 9:50AM, we have sound. Good job, Mr DTV.

MisterDTV

07-09-03, 09:18 AM

Here's what I just got:

*************************************
We know that WKEF 51.1 has no audio and we are working on it . WKEF 51.2 has audio. We hope to get it working today.

Have a great day.
Roland Martel
Dayton Ohio
*************************************

Let me know if it does not get resolved soon.

"Mr. DTV" (DTV@SBGI.NET)

Originally posted by DrDon
Mr DTV
Sure am hoping you get some attention. I sent two letters and made a phone call.. and that was MONDAY. Previously, I got someone in the newsroom who told me to call the cable company. "They're the only people around here with a channel 51." I pressed on, explaining digital television and she said, "Oh, yeah. I did hear something about that."

Makes me wonder about their NEWS. <g>

Doc

MisterDTV

07-09-03, 10:31 AM

From the C.E. at WKEF - All is well!

****************************************
We now have audio on WKEF 51.1. I had to reset our Harmonic encoder.

Roland Martel
Dayton Ohio
****************************************

"Mr. DTV" (DTV@SBGI.NET)

MisterDTV

07-09-03, 10:34 AM

And now...?

:cool: :cool:

Originally posted by DrDon
Mr DTV
Sure am hoping you get some attention. I sent two letters and made a phone call.. and that was MONDAY. Previously, I got someone in the newsroom who told me to call the cable company. "They're the only people around here with a channel 51." I pressed on, explaining digital television and she said, "Oh, yeah. I did hear something about that."

Makes me wonder about their NEWS. <g>

Doc

update: As of 9:50AM, we have sound. Good job, Mr DTV.

'nuther update As of 10AM, we have neither picture nor sound. Guess they showed us.

Nitewatchman

07-09-03, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by MisterDTV
And now...?

:cool: :cool:

A/V is fine from 51-1 now ...

Thanks for your participation here, Mark ... I might add, Roland and Thom have been very responive to my correspondance(both privately and via the email address on the WKEF/WRGT website). I have not contacted them on the 51.1 audio issue, as I had very recently been in contact with them regarding a WRGT-DT issue which was corrected,(see further back in this thread) and hoped monitoring of the signal by station personel and/or correspondance from other viewers besides myself may have been more benficial ....

Anyhow, We'll be all set when the time comes that the board-ops at WKEF-DT can "remember" to pass all the NBC HD(lately, except for the last week or so, they have been doing a good job of it), and hopefully someday we'll get Fox Widescreen(Fox HD in the "future") from WRGT-DT, and WB HD from WSTR-DT Cincinnati ...

Update 12am: HD is back for Leno tonight via WKEF-DT as well ... Didn't check the L&O's (If NBC provided them in HD tonight), but it seems like were batting 1,000 tonight :cool:

Nitewatchman

07-13-03, 09:15 PM

Hey, what do you know, WKEF-DT switched to HD for "L&O: CI" Tonight ...

Things seem to be going quite smoothly tonight so far, WXIX-DT Cincy even had the new show "Banzai" in Widescreen ... However, although WDTN-DT had the Disney movie at 7pm in HD, "Alias" at 9 is NOT in HD via WDTN-DT ... HD for "Alias" is fine tonight from WCPO-DT Cincy ...

I think I liked it better when WDTN was controlling the switching from Dayton instead of from Indy ... I don't believe I saw them miss HD even once before they began controlling the station from Indy ... Anybody know the number for The WISH/LIN control room in Indy<g>?

Nitewatchman

07-14-03, 02:03 PM

Sent WDTN CE a note concerning the occasional missing HD from WDTN last night, this is the reply I received this morning, so hopefully this issue will be completely straigtened out soon :

Jeff,

Thanks. I always appreciate your feedback. I am going over to Indy tomorrow for a meeting and I'll check into the problem with the inconsistant HD.

Thanks for your help,

Jim

Paul210

07-14-03, 02:26 PM

I'm sure this transition to DTV is quite a pain in the butt for all station CE's. It's refreshing to deal with someone like Jim Atkinson at WDTN. He's always very polite and concise with his answers.

Paul

Paul210

07-20-03, 10:22 PM

Do any of you that receive ota notice any strange things going on today? I keep getting breakups on WPTD-DT and WKRC-DT. Both are showing plenty of signal but I still have the problem and it doesn't seem to help re-aiming the antenna.

Paul

DrDon

07-20-03, 10:28 PM

Paul..
Looking at WKRC-DT, now. Looks fine, but I've only been watching CSI for a short time. WPDT looks solid, here in Florence (KY), too. Which only happens for me at night.

Doc

Nitewatchman

07-20-03, 11:08 PM

Paul,

No problems here tonight either, with WPTD-DT or WKRC-DT(when I was looking at least). I did notice that at one point, WLWT-DT was showing very uncharacteristic low, and a bit "bouncing around" readings(no dropouts/etc though), which I attributed to CCI from "somewhere", and it's something I don't recall ever seeing before.

Also, WCET-DT appeared to be having some weird Video problems tonight.... 48.4 and 48.5 were also gone when I looked, although at the time there wasn't HD on 48.1 ... I just checked at 11:04, after they went off air, and "just to make sure" it doesn't appear like the problem was CCI ... Analog WBKI 34 Louisville/Campbellsville KY would have been my most likely culprit for CCI to WCET-DT if it did happen, although I'd have to be "tough" to get through WCET-DT's strong signal since they increased power.

There has been some serious long haul Tropo DX reported in our area from the West last night, this morning and today, I unfortuntely missed it. Tropo does seem to be starting to pick up for me as well, although I'm not seeing much, and it isn't all that "uncommon" I am seeing quite a strong signal at times from WBXX 20, Crossville, TN, although it is unstable here presently. I haven't done a thorough "scan for DX' yet tonight, but I'm not seeing much else besides WBXX and WKON with steady signal, but, I suppose it's certianly possible with Tropo ducting that Paul is getting some signals which are causing CCI problems although we are not.

There is a DT on 58 in Johnson City, TN, and a DT on 31 in Knoxville,TN , if CCI is the problem you're having, It would make sense given your antenna heading to WPTD and WKRC, considering how well WBXX(near knoxville, TN) is coming in at times presently, and those stations seem like they'd be in about the right for you to cause CCI, but, CCI for you on 58 would be pretty wild considering your distance to WPTD-DT! I really can hardly imagine it given WPTD-DT's signal ...

Also, if it was a reception or CCI problem, I suppose stranger things have happened, but seems like your meter should be going up and down, or should be "lower than normal" ..... Something like having a overloaded preamp/etc, or a strong station on a adjacent channel causing problems does I believe tend to show up as the things you were seeing ... Of course, perhaps a more plausible explanation could be that it could have been a "problem at the station" that I, or Doc didn't notice when we were looking at those stations ..

But still, You might want to look around a bit and see if you see any DX on "clean channels" in those direction. With our difference in location and elevation, signals via tropo ducting could be blasting into your location, and I might not be seeing much(even though WKRC-DT would be on nearly the same heading for both of us), which seems to be "generally" the case presently.

BTW, A DTV Dx'er in Nebraska reported Reception of WPTD-DT via Tropo DX This morning! It's probably "not quite", but has to be somewhat close to the current Tropo DTV distance record, which I believe is something like 700 or 800 miles ...

Update(oops, I updated more of this post above also with hopefully better info) : Oh, also, Noticed that WDTN-DT missed the HD for "Alias" again Tonight(HD was fine from WCPO-DT), I just caught a second of it, but the 10pm show(The practice, I think) was SD upconvert on WDTN-DT as well ... Didn't check WCPO-DT for that one but my guess is it was HD there if it was supposed to be<g> ...

Paul210

07-22-03, 09:16 AM

Strange happenings again last night in OTA world. Numerous Cincy DT's were gone completely. But I was able to receive almost all of the Columbus digitals including three I had never been able to lock before. And the signal strength coming from the east was phenomenal--even rivaling the local Dayton stations. I had ideas of checking to see what analog stations I could receive while the atmospheric conditions were right but I was just too tired.

Paul

DrDon

07-22-03, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Paul210
Numerous Cincy DT's were gone completely. I don't have any first-hand information, but the outages were consistent with a power failure as they're all on the same stick. Guess, after the millions spent on the transmitter, they're understandably going to wait before spending millions on new generators.

-Doc

Nitewatchman

07-22-03, 05:33 PM

There were some PSIP problems at WPTD-DT and WXIX-DT too, which made them "unlockable/unviewable" on some recievers/configurations ... All seems back to normal now, but there's info on it on the last 2 pages of Cinci Thread ...

Congrats on the DX catches Paul, over the weekend, a Dx'er in Nebraska pulled in WPTD-DT, WKEF-DT and several other Cincy/Dayton and KY stations(including the KETs+WCVN) --- Screenshots he took/distance info for WPTD-DT/WKEF-DT are near bottom of his page here:

http://members.cox.net/mcsittel/belhdtv.htm

Nitewatchman

07-23-03, 10:45 PM

Originally posted by Paul210
Do any of you that receive ota notice any strange things going on today? I keep getting breakups on WPTD-DT and WKRC-DT. Both are showing plenty of signal but I still have the problem and it doesn't seem to help re-aiming the antenna.

Paul

Paul,

Don't know if this is what you were seeing from them the other night, but Just noticed between 9:55pm~10:40pm(was more frequent around 10p, hardly happening now), what "appears" to be much like reception related breakups occuring fairly often on WPTD-DT's HD subchannel(16.6), with the signal steady, and pegging the meter. However, with a little more checking, I don't see how It could be reception related, as It's perfectly solid as normal on 16.2, SD subchannel.

Probably(just guessing) just some little "glitches" they are still working out, or perhaps something storm related with their STL ...

HJustin

07-24-03, 12:59 PM

I picked an HD box from Time Warner Monday after work (got the Pioneer 3500HD) and my 65" Mitsubishi later that evening. I got everything in order about the time Jay Leno was coming on. I'm extremely pleased with the image I'm getting and I still need to converge the set after the move. A few comments and/or questions:

1. When commercials come on the NBC feed, often times my picture will distort or go completely blank. Is the par for the course or a symptom of having a not-so-good Pioneer HD box?

2. PBS (16 and 48) and Discovery look fantastic. Discovery has been rock solid, although when it stormed last night, I noticed a few hiccups.

3. I flipped to Law and Order on NBC last night and it was in 4:3. I noticed on HDTVGalaxy that this show is listed as HD. Did NBC not "flip the switch" or is something else awry?

4. Leno started out in 4:3 last night. I quickly sent an email to the engineering address on the WKEF Web site and called the newsroom.

5. I have a friend in the engineering department at WPTD. She was interested to see their HD feed last night at my place. The signal was breaking up badly and she was going to discuss it with her supervisor. If anyone has any specific questions or comments for the folks at WPTD, I can pass them along.

J

Paul210

07-24-03, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Paul,

Don't know if this is what you were seeing from them the other night, but Just noticed between 9:55pm~10:40pm(was more frequent around 10p, hardly happening now), what "appears" to be much like reception related breakups occuring fairly often on WPTD-DT's HD subchannel(16.6...

Jeff,

Yes, that's what I was seeing. I saw it again last night and it sounds like HJustin saw it too, along with his WPTD engineering friend.

HJustin,

Since you're asking for comments to pass along to WPTD, tell them that we are watching and very appreciative of all their efforts. I've watched more PBS in the past couple months than I've watched my entire life, thanks to HD. Some of their programming has been very enjoyable.

Paul

DrDon

07-24-03, 02:22 PM

HJustin

1. It's because most local stations don't have digital switchers, yet. It's usually little more than a rack mounted switcher that isn't genlocked to anything. The "hard switch" screws with both the station's transcoder and your box for a fraction of a second. It's like when you tune an old-style TV from one station to another. The picture "rolls" because the different stations' pictures aren't sychronized.

3. NBC's fault. What you saw was what was on their digital feed. They've said, before, that they won't air repeats in HD, but sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

4. Good job. You can also call the newsroom and they'll either switch you to the control room or pass along your message to "switch to the HD feed." We do it all the time. Squeaky wheel, you know.

Doc

Nitewatchman

07-25-03, 07:36 PM

For anyone who remembers, back some time ago, WRGT-DT was having an adjacent channel interference issue, and once they were able to get things straightened out, one of their engineers told had told me this is what happened:

"The short of it is, the modulator lost it's corrections."

Now I understand what he was probably talking about as, I ran across the following info, quoted from the following article in Broadcast Engineereing today: http://broadcastengineering.com/ar/broadcasting_advances_dtv_transmission/index.htm

"Adaptive pre-correction
Since transmission chains are subject to environmental and operating anomalies that can affect the quality of the RF transmission, adaptive pre-correction techniques are critical to ensuring that stations are radiating only within their licensed channel. Adaptive pre-correction continuously samples the DTV signal at the output of the channel combiner or the mask filter. If the pre-correction system detects any distortions, it feeds them back to the exciter and automatically corrects them without interrupting transmission.

Until recently, 8-VSB exciters provided effective techniques for adaptive linear correction, but little in the way of nonlinear adaptive correction. New exciters can provide continuous sampling of the transmitted signal before it is filtered, and then add the needed adjustments automatically to correct nonlinearities that could result in non-mask-compliant, out-of-band performance.

Nonlinearity correction ensures compliance with the FCC’s DTV RF mask in the two critical regions 500kHz inside the lower and upper limits of the 6MHz channel – regions that a standard mask filter cannot protect. Prior to these recent advancements, transmitter engineers had to perform tedious manual adjustments or difficult computer-to-exciter interface adjustments. The latest techniques are self-contained, using intelligent algorithms to perform all the underlying digital filter adjustments on a continual basis in a way that is essentially transparent to the user.

As more and higher-power DTV transmitters come online, adaptive correction techniques can help mitigate the effects of a crowded RF environment by ensuring ongoing DTV transmitter compliance with the FCC’s DTV RF mask."

end quote

----------------------------------------

I realize I'm probably one of the few here that is crazy enough to be interested in this sort of technical info, but thought I'd pass it along in case it helps anyone to assist in "diagnosing" any future adjacent channel interference problems in future(hopefully we won't have any though) cases, and also, as we had discussed this matter earlier in the thread.

Also, as long as I'm posting, think there's probably a thread elsewhere on this by now, but, came across some very interesting news concerning a new DTV bill, which if it passes, will force FCC to force many DTV stations to increase power to at least cover it's analog station's Grade A coverage area(among other goodies, concerning matters of Cable Plug and Play, and mandated DTV OTA receivers). The bill already has "strong support" from the CEA. More info Info on this bill is here:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=1283

I don't know the "specific wording" involved, but I do wonder, if the Bill passes, besides the stations currently operating at quite low power STA's, I wonder what sort of affect, if any, it may have on stations currently using directional antenna patterns/etc on their DT's which may not be able to cover their analog service area, even given high power operation. I won't name "names" specifically, but it doesn't seem like we have any of these in Dayton, but where a few of stations are concerned, Cincinnati and Oxford(Richmond, IN, city of license for that stations), might be a little different ...

Also, there is a DTV station in Lexington, KY which sends 7.5KW towards it's community of license, and yet only squirts a few WATTS(literally) towards most of it's potential viewers in Lexington, which of course is NOT the case with it's analog station ...

Nitewatchman

07-25-03, 10:01 PM

WPTD-DT "16-HD" Update - 9:57pm: HD from WPTD (16-6 or "16-HD") Is working great tonight, I've watched quite a bit of it since 8pm, and I'm seeing no evidence of the breakups we were seeing.

They are currently, THE "HD station" for PBS HD in Southwest Ohio! Which is very much appreciated here ...

TiVo_Al

07-27-03, 11:46 AM

I live just north of Marysville.

I used to get the Dayton DT stations fine.

Now they have such weak signals that my tuner can't lock onto any of them.

Has something happened out there that I've missed in the forums?

Thanks,

Tivo Al

Nitewatchman

07-27-03, 01:11 PM

Al,

I don't believe anything has changed on their end. That's excellent though that you have gotten good results from Dayton from North of Marysville. The Dayton DT signals must be getting out very well, into N KY, and to the North East.

Keep in mind, the "meters" on our receiver's often don't tell us a lot about actual signal strength, as, with most receivers, this isn't what they are "exclusively" measuring, and sometimes, not at all. Instead, most recevier's meters have more to do with bit rate errors in the datastream. Therefore, An actually fairly weak signal can give you high readings on your receiver's meter, if the signal is just a bit stronger than what is necessary(around 16db of Signal over noise) for good DTV reception.

I did a "crow fly" distance plot from center of Marysville to the Dayton TV Tower Farm, which shows to be 58.53 Miles. So, since your north of there, your even a bit farther out, which definintely puts you in the "Fringe Area" for the Dayton stations, whose antennas are right around 900-1100 feet above ground, 2000FT or so above Sea level.

Absorbtion of a little of the signal by things such as leaves on trees(which would be at it's MAX presently), or a couple of extra boxes in the attic/etc/etc. Could be making just the difference for you. My guess is, improving your antenna setup a little(getting it a little higher, finding a better "sweet spot" for Dayton, getting it outdoors, getting a little higher gain antenna/etc/etc) may solve this problem for you.

Just curious, but, (when you were getting them in), did you notice much difference in "signal level", or, receivability among the stations? Here are the power levels(and other info on the Dayton stations currently on air(which is all of them which have a DTV channel allocation from FCC) which might be helpful to you or someone else)). All of their antennas are up nice and high, as mentioned earlier (Note- CP=Construction Permit, STA=Special Temporary authority):

WBDT-DT 18(26-1 remap), 35KW ERP(Full power) - WB Dayton (480i SD only, No HD) - Non directional transmitting antenna.

WRGT-DT 30(30-1), 425KW ERP - Fox Dayton (480i SD only, No Fox Widescreen) - Not positive about the power on this, FCC CDBS info doesn't show any info on them as being authorized to be on air(they've been on air since 5/1/02) but this is what their CP says, and their comments seem to indicate they are at "full power") - Directional antenna pattern that favors the NE, and Springfield, Ohio (and Marysville, Columbus for that matter).

WHIO-DT 41(41-1), 275KW ERP(STA - Full power CP is 1000KW ERP) - CBS Dayton - HD - Note - Directional antenna which doesn't favor the SW, towards me and a analog on 41 in Louisville, KY (same antenna pattern as WCET-DT Cincy's using). They throw the least amount of power in my direction, currently, approx. 9KW ERP. I still get them at "pegging the meter" levels from 14 miles distant. No problems.

WDTN-DT 50(2-x), 125KW ERP(STA - Full power CP is 412KW ERP, but they are asking to "maximize" to 1000KW ERP) - ABC Dayton - HD on 2-1, SD on 2-2 - Non directional transmitting antenna.

WKEF-DT 51(51-x), 95KW ERP(STA) -Full power CP is 138KW ERP, NBC Dayton - HD on 51-1, SD on 51-2 - Non directional transmitting antenna.

WPTD-DT 58(16-x), 290KW ERP(At full power) - PBS/ThinkTV Dayton - HD on 16-6 in evenings, SD on 16~2, also multicasting on 16-2~5 when there is no HD - Non-directional transmitting antenna.

----------------------------------

All,

Noticed that WDTN-DT is still missing HD, at least from Alias again last Monday, and the Movie/Dragnet last night. Sigh.

Noticed (as Doc as mentioned before), WKEF-DT on 51-1 is at least "sometimes" staying with the NBC Feed after SNL at 1AM on Sat. nights, wheras 51-2 and the analog goes to syndicated stuff. Pretty cool, at 1am they had a second, Different SNL program on.

Really enjoyed the "Doobie Bros" portion of the Micheal Mcdonald Soundstage on WPTD-DT, I missed it in HD, but caught it on 16-4 last night. Took me back a few years to the "good ol' days", and it's good to see those guys keeping their chops up ...

TiVo_Al

07-28-03, 07:08 AM

I don't know the Dayton call letters, but here is what I remember.

I was getting a good signal from the ABC channel, which was what I was looking for then because at that time the Columbus ABC affiliate was not yet digital.

I also remember watching a NASCAR race on the Dayton Fox station. Again, the Columbus Fox station was not digital. In fact, I still can't get the Columbus digital signal, even though it's supposed to be on the same antenna as ABC.

I think I got the CBS and NBC at times, but never PBS.

I do have an amplifier in the attic after my roof antenna with rotor. Do you think another amplifier right before the HDTV receiver would do any good?

Thanks,

Tivo Al

Nitewatchman

07-28-03, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by TiVo_Al
I do have an amplifier in the attic after my roof antenna with rotor. Do you think another amplifier right before the HDTV receiver would do any good?

My guess is, most likely not. Usually, "practically speaking" all the 2nd amp would do is ampify noise created by the 1st amp. Only things I could suggest which would probably work best(which may not be practical) would be a higher gain(better) antenna setup, at least on the UHF side of things, and/or, getting your antenna higher or in a "sweet spot", even if you can move it horizontally a couple of feet might make a difference, and or, don't know what sort of amp you are using, but the best way to go preamp wise, is usually a mast-mounted preamp --

Preamp's work best when they are as close to the antenna as possible -- the amp itself mounts on the antenna mast, and it gets power from the feedline itself via a power supply which you put in your house. Low-noise, high gain models such as the Channel master 7777 and 7778 have been highly recommened on this forum. However, one really has to find the right "balance" for their location, as a "too high gain" antenna with a too high gain preamp can also cause problems if they get too strong of a signal, from say, your Columbus stations, which can cause your preamp to overload, and spread noise all over the channels that have the weaker signals on them, and/or cause the front end of your tuner to overload, or "desensitize", making it difficult to see weaker signals on channels right next to your stronger stations/etc. That probably wouldn't be too much of a problem from your location, however, and of course, rotating a directional antenna away from the stronger signals(when desired) will usually reduce this "overload" effect to quite an extent.

Being in a "fringe area" as you are, some 60 miles from the Dayton towers means that for Dayton, probably anything(and the more things you can do, probably the better) you can do to get "more signal" from the Dayton stations might be of some help, I would think. While the best thing would probably be trying to improve things on the antenna height/antenna gain end, For instance, You might also want to check to make sure your feedline/feedline to antenna connections are good. IF you're using RG-59, moving to RG-6 feedline could make a bit of a difference for you, especially on the higher UHF channels, as RG-6 looses a little less signal than RG-59(not much difference though). Also, As another example, if water has gotten into your Coax up near the antenna, this may be costing you quite a bit of signal, now, and something like this might explain why you've lost reception on the Dayton stations.

Also, Since you have the Columbus stations to view anyhow, you might want to do nothing, and observe to see if the change in the leaves off trees, or other "enviornmental factors" make a difference for you with Dayton. For instance, when the "atmosphere" is just right, it can serve to extend the range of signals beyond Curvature of the Earth, so, Sometimes, you might get good signals from Dayton when the atmosphere(air) is more conducive to "troposperhic enhancement", and other times not. The main "limiting facator" with distance where VHF/UHF is concerned is the Curvature of the Earth gets in the way, and, given the height of the Dayton DTV transmitting antennas, anything more than about 55-60 miles is usually going to be getting to the point where it's beyond the curvature of the earth, which will serve to Block the signals, unless you are in a high spot, or can get your antenna up higher. How much higher is hard to say, 3 feet might do wonders, but you might need significantly more than that. Also, the higher the frequency, the shorter the wavelengths, and longer wavelengths (such as VHF) can bend a little more around the Earth's surface than can shorter wavelengths.

BTW, On the Columbus Fox Digital Station (WTTE-DT 36), Keep in mind, it is at quite low power. Last I spoke to their Chief Engineer, I believe he said they were running 8KW ERP. I've only seen it a couple of times here, when the atmosphere was "just right" to allow signals from Columbus to "blast in". On the other hand, The Columbus ABC station, (WSYX-DT 13), I see an indication of a signal(Well below a lock, though) from just about all the time, and I see it with perfect reception quite often(Last night, for example it was in very well here), sometimes on a nightly basis(at least now, in the wintertime, it's drier, and the air is usually less "conducive" to this sort of thing), depending upon if the atmosphere is "working" to allow for reception of these signals from beyond the Curvature of the Earth, which is not "normally" the case. WTTE/WSYX tower is 78 Miles from my location. On the other hand, I see WCMH 4 NBC Columbus analog, from ~78 miles as well, pretty much all the time, often it's quite watchable.

Sorry for the length, hope some of this is of use,

mcallister

07-30-03, 06:20 PM

I just got TWC HD box and the Discovery HD channel is fabulous. Does anyone know what is going on with TWC and ESPN HD or even HD NET? They need to sign some contracts before college football seaon gets here.

By the way,

GO BUCKS

HJustin

08-04-03, 01:02 PM

The NBC and FOX channels (722 and 745 respectively) have been down since late last week. They still exist on the guide and you can tune to them but there is no picture or sound. Is anyone else experiencing the same or is it just me?

Thanks,

J

HJustin

08-04-03, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by breedingamies
I just got TWC HD box and the Discovery HD channel is fabulous. Does anyone know what is going on with TWC and ESPN HD or even HD NET? They need to sign some contracts before college football seaon gets here.

Who knows what they're up to? The customer service people are mostly ignorant on HD matters. I agree, however, that we need more channels before football season gets underway. I'm going to be forced to try my luck with an OTA tuner and antenna. Given that I rent a townhouse, my antenna options are somewhat limited.

J

Nitewatchman

08-04-03, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by HJustin
The NBC and FOX channels (722 and 745 respectively) have been down since late last week. They still exist on the guide and you can tune to them but there is no picture or sound. Is anyone else experiencing the same or is it just me?

They've been fine OTA, NBC Dayton(WKEF-DT 51) Has even been doing a great job providing NBC HD as of late when I've checked. Fox Dayton(WRGT-DT 30), of course gives us only 4x3 480iSD(no Fox widescreen) at present, and for whatever reason, the analog looks just as good or better if you get good reception of it.

I'm going to be forced to try my luck with an OTA tuner and antenna. Given that I rent a townhouse, my antenna options are somewhat limited.

Personally, I'd hate to be "forced" to have to use cable, if somehow the cableco ever decided to run it anywhere near my house ;)

From Dayton, OTA, In addition to NBC and Fox Digitals, and WPTD-DT(PBS HD/ThinkTV) which TW Dayton Does I beleive carry, you also get Dayton ABC+CBS HD, as well as Dayton WB Digital(480iSD(4x3) only presently). I don't believe Dayton TW carries these Dayton Digital/HD stations, even though, for instance, CBS HD Dayton was first Dayton Digital station on air with CBS HD in 2001.

IF you're South of I-70, you'll also have a good shot at the Cincinnati digital stations(probably not so much with indoor antenna though), and, for example, Cincy DOES have a Fox station(WXIX-DT 29) which does Fox Widescreen. Or, you may even have a shot at the Columbus digitals if your on the "far" East side of Dayton, such as in or near Beavercreek or Xenia ....

YMMV, and depends upon various "factors" involving your receiving location, but, "all in all", you probably won't have too much difficulty with Dayton OTA DTV/HD given the "right" antenna setup. All the Dayton TV Towers(except WWRD-LP 55 analog) are in the same location in West Dayton, which is good, because directional antennas are the way to go to receive TV/DTV signals on VHF/UHF frequencies.

For "settop", or indoor type antennas, the Radio Shack Double-Bow tie(DBT has been reintroduced as a $15 "HD antenna", not sure of the cat#), and, the (Zenith I beleive) Silver Sensor have been highly recommended on this forum. The "terk"/etc. indoor, and Sat dish clip on antennas are about as good as a coathanger(if that), and a $2 Radio Shack single "wire type" bowtie antenna will likely work better than those, usually way overpriced antennas. With one of these $2 bowties placed in a window facing the towers, for instance, I can get good results from the Dayton Digitals(12~14 miles), and the high power Cincinnati stations(32 miles).

The DBT and Silver Sensor are "UHF" antennas, presently, the only VHF DTV stations in the area are ABC Columbus(WSYX-DT 13), and ABC Cincinnati(WCPO-DT 10). This is likely to change however after analog shut off time, as many stations will likely move their Digitals to their current Analog VHF channels after that time. Also, Oftentimes, except when certian types of insulated glass are a factor, placing a small, "indoor type" antenna near a window that faces the direction of Broadcast towers often works well for those within 25~30 Miles of the broadcast towers.

Also, if you must keep your antenna "locked up indoors", while a outdoor, directional antenna aimed at the towers is nearly allways the best way to go, still, many folks have also had good results using conventional "outdoor"(Yagi's and Bowties) antennas in their attic. Dr Don, AVSMember Near Florence, KY, for instance, gets excellent results from the Cincinnati Stations, and Decent results from the Dayton stations with one of these in his attic, with preamp.

Anyhow, Good luck, and let us know how it goes if you decide to use OTA, or if you run into problems or are looking for advice/etc, we'll do our best to assist ...

Nitewatchman

08-04-03, 08:35 PM

Just got in at 8:30pm, but from the little I've seen so far, HD looks VERY Good for MNF on WDTN-DT Dayton ... (and WCPO-DT Cincy) ...

Kudos to ABC and WDTN!

Electronica

08-11-03, 12:21 PM

Don't know if you read Friday's Don Loose column in the Dayton Daily News. His column has been eliminated.

I received this email from Don today. You may want to send an email to the editor.

----------------------------------------------

Dear Readers of Home Audio/Video (All blind copied to protect the guilty!),

If you're receiving this e-mail you've responded to my Dayton Daily News
column on home audio and video at one time or another.

A week ago the Dayton Daily News dropped the column "for budgetary
reasons." This wasn't a complete surprise. Perhaps you've noticed
decreasing space allotted to it over the past few months.

My column was initiated 5 years ago as part of a new weekly oHIo Tech
section, when the DDN was desperate to have a technology feature that
wasn't about computers. This was perfect timing because home audio and
video are undergoing transitions that will affect everyone over the next
decade. There was no consistent, reliable source of information available
to the general public so public confusion and ignorance remained high. My
column tried to fill that voice at least for the Miami Valley.

Two years ago oHIo TECH was dropped because it did not draw sufficient
advertising dollars. (It seems smart advertisers like Soundwaves
advertised on the back of the TV listings instead!) This was part of a
general downsizing of the paper - mine wasn't the only feature to be cut.
Then came a last-minute reprieve from the managing editor, who assigned
the column to the Business Section (along with Dr. Bombay and James
Cummings' gadget-of-the-week features). While not the most logical of
locations for it, it was in one of the best-read locations - right next to
Dilbert! DDN continued to support the column for two more years.

My one major regret, and my biggest mistake, was using my home e-mail
address for your responses to the column once it moved to the business
section. Previously respondents wrote care of CoxOhio.Com so the paper was
aware of all of them. Since the move, all your responses have come only to
me.

Hence I'm now asking a favor of you: if you found the column to be of
value, please drop a brief note explaining that value in your own words to
the DDN. Send either to edletter@coxohio.com or Letters To The Editor,
P.O. Box 1287, Dayton OH 45401-1287.

Please make it a polite note of appreciation. After all, they supported
the column an extra couple years after it could have easily died. They
didn't see the evidence of readership that I did at home - all your
responses. This way they'll see it was worthwhile to sustain the column as
long as they did, and may act as a good reference as I try to market the
column elsewhere.

I'm approaching the Columbus Dispatch, Cincinnati Enquirer, and Amos
Suburban newspapers to see if I can find a new home for the column. I'll
send out another e-mail if I'm successful. Meanwhile, thanks for all your
support these last few years.

Don Loose

jparin

08-11-03, 12:57 PM

I sent a note to DDN, I wasn't sure if it was Don or DDN who decided to end the column.
Don was one of the few bright feature column's that the DDN has , I cant believe DDN dropped it.

Thanks for all the columns, Don. I wish you well in locating another publisher, for your column..

kVp

08-11-03, 06:27 PM

I, too, have sent a note to the DDN. Don's column has been excellent in explaining technical aspects of home audio-visual issues. He is highly knowledgeable and a gifted teacher and his column will be missed by many.

Kevin

Nitewatchman

08-18-03, 08:04 PM

FYI, MNF is HD on WCPO-DT Cincy right off the bat, although the HD is missing from WDTN-DT Dayton (8:03pm) ..

Update: 8:07pm - Now HD via WDTN-DT --- As soon as the "Available in HD" banner went up, one of the Hoosiers flipping the switches for LIN in Indy must've caught it ;)

Nitewatchman

08-21-03, 02:54 PM

Looks like WPTD-DT has changed it's OTA subchannels around(at least presently), remapped, on my Zenith HDV420 instead of 16.2~16.6 as it has been, it's now 16.1~16.5, with everything in the same place, just "down one". Non-remapped channels on the DTC-100(off air guides/channel remapping turned off) remain as 58.2~58.6.

update 10:30pm : WPTD-DT isn't currently remapping on my receivers tonight, it's 58.2~58.6 with Soundstage in HD on 58.6, presently. Probably just a temporary thing, I'd guess they'll go back to remapping, don't know if it will start at 16.1 or 16.2 though ..

At one time, they had the OTA channel info/remapped channel info on their programming schedule at their website(starting with 16.2 - since it was set up that way on their website to begin with, I assume that's why they didn't use 16.1), but presently, the only channel info I'm seeing on their website for the digital stations is for the TW Dayton channels.

Update #2 : 8/22 12pm - They're back to remapping to 16.1~5 now.

toshman

08-29-03, 01:20 PM

I just noticed today that TWC has added channel 760 for InHD Preview. No picture yet but if it follows the usual routine I expect it will be up and running in a few days.

Nitewatchman

08-29-03, 01:57 PM

Did anyone notice DD 5.1 from WPTD-HD(ThinkDTV/PBS) for the Tori Amos Soundstage last night? AVSforum member and ThinkDTV operations/Traffic manager Charles Cole is asking for reports on this in this post in Cincinnati thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2606964#post2606964

logic8482

08-30-03, 10:27 AM

I had read someone on this board had gotten a 3500HD box. I called TW and they said that these would not be avalible until late Nov. Does anyone know if they actually are giving out the 3500s right now?

Thanks

Kerbs

09-03-03, 07:37 PM

Newbie here!

Just got my new HDTV and SA3100 box from TW. The quality of Discovery HD and the new demo on the new iNHD channel is astounding.

But....Here in Sidney, TWC is not picking up the Dayton OTA channels on ABC or CBS. They do have NBC and FOX 45...no sports and limited HDTV.

Any word on what is going on with Time Warner West Ohio? Should I just bite the bullet and put up a good antenna and get a receiver, or wait for TWC to catch up?

Thanks, Kerbs

toshman

09-04-03, 09:59 AM

Kerbs, TWC is making strides in providing HD channels. I got my HDTV last November. At that time TWC western ohio had only HBO and SHO HD channels.

Since then, they have added:

NBC
FAUX
PBS
DISCOVERY
INHD

That's 5 new HD channels in less than a year. Not bad, IMO.

Nitewatchman

09-04-03, 06:22 PM

Kerbs,

CBS Dayton has been on the air with CBS HD since 2001, ABC Dayton has been on the air with ABC HD since Jan 2003. The Fox Dayton Digital station is pretty useless(except for those with poor reception of their analog station), as they don't do Fox Widescreen. You're a little out of range for them, but luckily for many of us the Cincinnati Fox station Does do Fox widescreen.

Also (jinx alert!) although they've gotten better at it lately(seems like I'm allways saying that, and just after I say that, HD is lacking from them), fairly often the Dayton NBC HD station seems to "forget" to provide HD from NBC even when it's available. WLWT Cincinnati(you're probably a little out of range for them), almost never misses the NBC HD.

IMO, PBS/ThinkTV Dayton is probably the best thing HD wise from the local stations that TW Dayton carries, PBS Dayton does HD on a nightly basis.

The Dayton WB digital station is also on the air, but like the Fox station, only offers 480i 4x3 SD, presently.

Someone reported in this thread back in Feburary that TW Dayton was in "negotiations" to carry Dayton ABC+CBS HD stations, but of course that was 7 months ago. Haven't heard anything new here since then.

Lima has a NBC digital station on the air (WLIO-DT 8) But I don't believe they do HD. Columbus I suppose may be a slight possibility for you OTA as well, although you'd probably need a very good antenna setup, as Sidney would be approx. 60-65 miles from the Columbus Towers -- Ft. Wayne would be about 70 miles, but my understanding is the current situation with DTV in Ft. Wayne is pretty dismal, with low power operations/etc.

Anyhow, Dayton OTA should work well for you, but of course with the luck we digital/HD viewers seem to have sometimes, as soon as you get your receiver and antenna up, perhaps TW will start carrying ABC+CBS HD, but, If you don't get the antenna up, you still may have a long wait ;-)

Kerbs

09-09-03, 06:48 PM

Thanks Nitewatchman,

Guess I will wait a few weeks to see what happens. Nice to see TWC has the inhd demo... should start on 2 HDTV channels 9/15.

Nitewatchman

09-11-03, 06:37 PM

FYI, WDTN-DT 50 is currently off air.

parrot1

09-12-03, 02:04 PM

I called WDTN, no one could give me an ETA on how long the digital Channels would be out of service.

Nitewatchman

09-12-03, 07:11 PM

WDTN-DT's Chief Engineer Just sent me a note concerning their current "off air" status -- What's really neat is, I haven't even asked him yet :) --

Jeff,

Just wanted to let you know that we have experienced a catastrophic
tube failure. We ordered a new tube and it will hopefully be here next
Thursday. I regret the delay and inconvenience.
Also, will you post a note on the AVS so others will know.

Thanks,

Jim Atkinson
WDTN-2
WDTN-DT-50

--------------------

buckeye1010

09-15-03, 02:02 PM

thanks for the info Jeff!!

parrot1

09-20-03, 08:07 AM

Just an update, I spoke with Jim @ WDTN on Thurs. All the replacement parts had arrived & he expected to be back up that day.... Hopefully before MNF.

kVp

09-20-03, 11:28 AM

Thanks, parrot1. I've missed WDTN-HD since I don't get the Cincinnati stations with my attic antenna.

Kevin

dvdslut

09-20-03, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by parrot1
Just an update, I spoke with Jim @ WDTN on Thurs. All the replacement parts had arrived & he expected to be back up that day.... Hopefully before MNF.
Saturday 2pm, back up.

jim

Nitewatchman

09-20-03, 06:41 PM

WDTN-DT seems to be back off air at 6:40pm, also, I'm seeing a problem we've seen before from WRGT-DT AND WKEF-DT. They are on the air, but they aren't putting out a signal neither of my receivers can recognize. On a non-screen muting analog TV, I'm hearing a ~110HZ audio buzz on both Ch 30 and Ch 51. Last time this happened, it was a problem with their exciter(s), but, last time(about a year ago) it didn't happen with both stations at the same time ....

Jeff

kVp

09-20-03, 06:57 PM

Similar problem here, Jeff. No signal detected from these three stations.

Kevin

Nitewatchman

09-20-03, 07:12 PM

Kevin,

When it rains it pours I guess! I have 4 stations "missing". WXIX-DT (Fox Widescreen Cincinnati) Has been in "Blank screen mode" for 2 days now. Plenty of signal from them as normal(meter "pegged" on the receivers), but noone can see it as they have something wrong. Last time this happened with them(Late July 2003), they had to reboot The computer that controls their Encoder to fix the problem. Sent WXIX-DT a note last night, but I guess they don't mind paying the transmiiter bills and sending out a blank screen, instead of properly monitoring their off-air signal.

Anyhow, I Just Sent WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT engineering a note, hopefully they'll "remember" what went wrong when this happened last year, as you wouldn't BELEIEVE what I had to go through on this issue the first time(Sept. 2002).

It's a long explanation, but via other means besides my DTV receivers I can tell WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT are currently putting out a strong signal as normal, but it's not a "proper" signal that our DTV receiver's can detect. Although it's possible someone may still be receiving them -- Last time, the only receiver I know that was working for them was WKEF/WRGT's receiver in their "basement" for some, odd reason ....

8PM Update:

WDTN-DT 50 - On air -- Seems fine
WKEF-DT 51 - Off air - REally off air now
WRGT-DT 30 - Off air - Really off air now
WXIX-DT 29(Cincy) - STill in "blank Screen Mode.

So, as far as the Dayton stations go, looks like they've got it "figured out", or are working on it.

UPDATE #2 - 8:30pm

All seems well now with all 6 Dayton Digital Stations. At ~8:20pm WKEF-DT and WRGT-DT came back on air with a "good" signal. Only problem is, 8:30pm "Whoopi" is not HD on WKEF-DT, it is in HD on WLWT-DT, NBC Cincinnati.

kVp

09-21-03, 11:36 AM

Thanks for the info, Jeff. As per your last update, all the Dayton stations are still back up as of 11:15 AM.

I'm using MyHD MDP-100 and MDP-120 tuner/decoder cards in separate computers to receive and record HDTV as well as a stand-alone Samsung SIR-TS151 receiver, which is currently loaned out to a friend. I generally get good reception on two different attic antennas, though one has multipath problems with WDTN-HD.

Since I'm stuck with an attic antennas, I get no Cincinnati or Columbus stations. Fortunately, I'm only 10 miles from the Dayton broadcast towers and do OK if I use preamplifiers.

I appreciate the efforts you have made to keep the HDTV broadcasts going in Dayton. It seems like a struggle since the local stations know their bread and butter is still cable and analog. Gradually, as more of us let them know that there is a growing HDTV audience, they will hopefully put more resources into their HDTV broadcasts.

I occasionally try contact the stations if I notice a problem, since they amazingly sometimes do not seem to realize that there is no decodable HDTV signal. If you need another voice to let them know when the signal goes awry, feel free to PM me with your Dayton contact points you have found to be useful.

Kevin

Nitewatchman

09-21-03, 04:06 PM

Kevin,

Thanks. I generally use the contact info which is shown on the stations' websites. There is a list of the Dayton stations with links to their websites here :

http://100kwatts.tmi.net/tv/DAY.html

Haven't had much luck finding good contact info for WHIO, however.

I think anyone can help by contacting the stations and letting them know they are watching, what we think of their PQ/etc. and that we want HD. I think, for the most part(jinx alert!) The local stations do a good job sending us a good signal, and that at this stage of the game, it's understandable, that it might take longer to get some problems fixed with the digital stations.

Also, sometimes there are certian PSIP/etc. related issues which depend upon how different models of receivers handle PSIP -- Since stations can't test every function on every model of receiver, input from viewers can be very benefical to them. Also, Although we haven't ran into this in Dayton yet(and I think the work is "over" in Dayton at least for now), there can also be issues with Tower work/etc. necessary for DTV transistion+other issues. For instance, Last fall, WLWT-DT, NBC Cincinnati was off air for much of the Fall season while they completed their tower work to install "permanent" antennas for WLWT-DT and WCET-DT.

Certianly however, I think they should be properly monitoring their digital station's off-air signal at the station. It does get frustrating and tiring to continue to contact the stations every time something goes wrong so they know we "are watching", when I can, of course just switch the channel.

Concerning the Dayton stations, I think the main DTV issues currently for which it may be of benefit for as many people as possible to contact the stations and request the following issues be addressed are :

1.) No WB HD from WBDT-DT
2.) No Fox Widescreen from WRGT-DT
3.) "occasional" missing NBC HD from WKEF-DT
4.) Compression artifact problems on WHIO-DT during demanding HD source material from CBS(HD football for example).
------------------------------------

Concerning your problem with WDTN-DT reception on one of your antennas, keep in mind, It may be something other than Multipath, or a combination of issues causing the difficulty. Certianly, Multipath could be an issue(or contributing factor) for you but I suspect that many problems that you will see which are often attributed to Multipath(due to fluctuating meter readings) are actually due to other issues such as various interference and receiver selectivity/sensitivity issues. Unfortunetly, unless your receiver has better diagnostic tools for the RF signal than is the case with most all receivers nowadays, usually the only way to know for sure multipath is the "culprit" is with the use of expensive equipment(Spectrum analzyer.)

Getting your antenna outdoors would probably be the best thing to do, as basically, not only are you reducing signal by probably 15-20dbu or more(that is a lot), anything near your antenna indoors becomes part of your antenna. In case it helps, Loads of great info on antennas and reception can be found here:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

http://www.projectorexpert.com/

Nitewatchman

09-21-03, 04:22 PM

Cleveland Vs. 49er's is HD on WKRC-DT Cincy(They were a little late in flipping the Switch though -- 4:19pm - Someone probably called them).

WHIO-DT is showing the Cleveland game, but as of 4:21pm it is NOT HD. Don't know who/how to try to contact them and ask them to switch to HD.

Update : Called WHIO Newsroom and asked for HD at 4:28pm --- They wouldn't transfer me to Control room, but in the middle of my next sentence, "Could you ask them to provide ...." -- The fellow said "HD?" ..

At 4:30pm, Cleveland game is in HD from WHIO-DT ....

Nitewatchman

09-22-03, 09:45 PM

Noticed at 9:15pm that HD is missing from WDTN-DT for MNF. It's fine from WCPO-DT Cincinnati. WDTN-DT/WCPO-DT and WSYX-DT 13 Columbus were missing ABC HD last night, it may have been related to a friday morning failure of the Sat which was used by ABC for their Primary SD+HD Feed, But, the feeds were switched to another satellite, I believe on Friday.

More details available here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=304664

Since WDTN-DT switching/etc is controlled from Indy I'm not sure whom to contact to ask them to provide HD, but I sent a note to WDTN's CE last night on the Telstar 4 failure, as well as tonight as well asking him whom we should try to contact to ask for HD.

DaytonBuckeye

09-22-03, 10:23 PM

JEff,

I just sent you an e-mail, asking about this same thing.

Disregard that...

Rich

Nitewatchman

09-23-03, 12:26 AM

Just heard from Jim Atkinson at WDTN -- Because of an issue with the Telstar 4 failure, their Computer(in Dayton, Not Indy) Didn't properly switch to the correct transponder for the HD feed tonight. He also said they'll have it straightened out by tomorrow night.

Might be a good idea for us to thank WDTN for HD when we get it back and let them know we are watching as they've really been hit hard with "murphy's law" in the past couple of weeks.

Dirac

09-23-03, 10:04 PM

Hi, I'm new to the forum and to DTV. In fact I have yet to purchase a receiver or monitor, but I am thinking ahead and planning an antenna installation--thought it might help with the analog channels in the meantime as well.

What will I need to pull in Cincinnati stations from Beavercreek (zip 45430)? I'm thinking about a chimney mount--if I point a directional antenna toward Cincinnati (Southwest) will I be able to pick up the nearby Dayton stations (West) without moving the antenna, or will I need a rotor? I've got a Spaun 5x8 amplified multiswitch (SMS5802NF) in the attic and I could crank up the gain on the terrestrial input, but I don't know how much good that will do.

Thanks for the advice.

Jon

09-23-03, 10:18 PM

Dirac,

I live in Xenia and have a channel master 8 bay UHF antenna permanently mounted in the attic pointed at Cincinnati and I receive all the Cincinnati stations except channel 9 (ABC) and all the Dayton stations. I receive all the Dayton stations at 100% signal strength.

John

kVp

09-24-03, 06:24 AM

Dirac,

Your mileage may vary. I have two separate attic antennas, a ChannelMaster 4 bay and Radio Shack double bow tie. I can get all the Dayton stations when pointed toward them except the ChannelMaster doesn't get WDTN-DT. I get no Cincinnati stations at all. I use attic pre-amplifiers with both antennas.

As Nitewatchman points out above, you'll have a big advantage just by putting your antenna outside. Directional antennas have forward gain and attempt to reject signal from the rear and especially from the sides of the array, so I suspect you'll need a rotor. You could try pointing the array toward the Cincinnati stations and see if the Dayton signals are strong enough to overcome the loss of antenna gain.

Nitewatchman,

Thanks for the antenna info. Unfortunately, I can't put up an outside antenna in my neighborhood unless I can conceal it. If I put one outside, I would want to use a rotor to get Cincinnati and Columbus stations, so I'm stuck with the attic problems for now until I think of something clever.

Kevin

Nitewatchman

09-24-03, 11:57 AM

Kevin,

HOA's, Neighborhood assocaitions, basically noone can prevent you from putting an antenna outdoors -- If you live on base at Wright-Patt, there may be some add'l concerns, however. Also, I don't believe it has to be "concealed" either --

FCC has a ruling(it's the law) on this, you can go up to 12' above your roofline. I'm not sure, but I do think HOA's etc. can have control over mounting issues where safety/etc. issues are concerned. Info avaialble in the OTARD document at FCC site(link provided in below threads), as well as all over AVSforum. Here are a couple of recent, useful threads on this issue:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=249023

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=280276

-------------------------------------------

Dirac,

Welcome to AVS!

Kevin is right on the money. Every situation is different, there are many factors involved. It's difficult to predict what you may need in your circumstance, and as you can see from Jon's report, getting good reception can often be quite easy. I probably tend to overestimate what may be needed, as I assume(perhaps incorrectly) that folks will want to receive as many stations as is reasonably possible, as well as to have the best reception possible.

Concerning Dayton/Cincy antenna aiming for your location, I checked, and Cincy towers would be 215~218 deg. heading, most at 46~48 miles from "center" of Beavercreek, and Dayton Towers are ~10 miles on a bearing of 278~283 degrees -- That's over a 60 degree difference, and you'll definitely want to use a good, Hi-gain directional antenna for Cincy(aimed right at Cincy towers), so it's probably going to be too much of a spread, and you'll probably want a rotor -- Especially, also since Columbus(77~79 deg. ENE)/Chillocothe(104 deg -ESE) stations also may be within your reach at 50~57 Miles. The Chillocothe station, WWHO-DT(~50 miles from you) has WB HD, and probably will have UPN HD too when it becomes available, none of the Dayton/Cincy stations currently offer WB HD.

Probably a good idea though to try it and see how it works via "manual rotation by hand"(if necessary) first, before getting a rotor. Also, another possibility is to use seperate antennas on seperate feedlines for the stations in different markets selecting between them with a a/b switch placed near your receiver. They even have a/b switches with remotes, BTW.

And yes, it should help your analog reception, and the better you can get the analogs in, the better shot you have at getting good reception from the Cincy/Columbus digitals.

You are "almost" fringe area for Cincinnati though, and most likely definitely fringe area for Columbus -- And keep in mind, issues such as terrain blockage can be an issue, especially if the "hills" are very nearby your location. If you don't have a terrain issue though, with the "Right" antenna setup, you should be able to get reception of Dayton/Cincinnati, and very possibly Columbus stations, too.

It's difficult to say "how much" or, what antenna you will need/will work beest as every situation can be different, but IMO, IF at all possible, in your situation, IF you want more than just the Dayton station it is Probably best to go with the "most directional" highest-gain of antennas, and mount your antenna(s) as high as you reasonably can -- Increased directivity is probably Especially important since, given your location, you might experience some co-channel interference issues with the following stations that are on the same channel(DT at the end of the callsign denotes a digital/HD station):

WBNS 10 CBS Columbus - WCPO-DT 10 ABC Cincinnati
WCMH-DT 14 NBC Columbus - WPTO 14 PBS/ThinkTV Oxford
WTTE 28 Fox Columbus - WPTO-DT 28 PBS/ThinkTV - Not yet on air, will be broadcasting from a tower in Cincy

WOSU 34 Columbus - WCET-DT 34 Cincinnati

Hopefully, your chimney will be in a "sweet spot" for good reception, as sometimes, moving the antenna a little horizontally can make as much, or more difference than up or down. If you can, It's probably a good idea to try a little experimentation with different antenna placement to see what you get before mounting it "permanently". Even on a short mast a bit off the ground may tell you a lot.

For the digitals currently, you'll need an antenna with VHF capabilities for WSYX-DT 13 ABC Columbus, and WCPO-DT 10 Cincinnati, the rest of the area digitals currently are on UHF --- Many analogs in the area are also VHF, and probably after analog shut off more digitals will be on VHF. Seperate VHF/UHF antennas usually offer the best performance, but there are good VHF/Combo antennas out there as well -- Only problem is, the best of VHF/UHF combo antennas are quite large(for TV antennas), and if you use these, you'll want to make sure you have a sturdy mount to account for wind/ice loading.

Concerning your multiswitch/amp, you could try it, but what would likely work better for Cincy/Columbus stations would be to use a completely seperate feedline for your OTA antenna, and a hi-quality, mast mount preamp such as a CM7777. Power supply for these goes inside, and DC power feeds the mast-mount preamp(put it as near the antenna as possible). You might run into some problems with Preamp overload from the Dayton stations though, and either an adjustable attenuator in-line, or even better a seperate Lo-gain antenna for Dayton on a seperate feedline might not be a bad idea if you do experience overload. However, I can tell you I'm 12 Miles from the tower, and Preamp overload isn't a problem here.

Probably best to try it without the preamp first, and see what sort of reception you get.

Finally, If you haven't already done so, you can punch your address/etc. at the following site, and it will give you a good idea of the stations you should be able to receive, as well as make recommendations on what sort of antenna you need, and if you might want to use a preamp.

http://www.antennaweb.org

IMO however, it's probably not a bad idea to go a "step or 2 up" from what antennaweb recommends for the "weakest" station you want to try to receive.

Lots of great antenna and reception info here:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Here:

http://www.projectorexpert.com

And, info on many antennas/preamps/etc available(you can buy them from here too) here:

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

I Know that's a lot, but hopefully some of it helps,

Good luck and let us know how it goes,

Jon_E_R

09-24-03, 04:12 PM

Dirac,

I hate to disagree with nightwatchman but he is right every location is unique but my channel master 8 bay UHF attic mounted antenna @224 deg. picks up all Cincy channels except (DT-9(ABC)) and I receive all the Dayton channels at 100% signal strength with NO problems. Static mounted in attic.

John

Dirac

09-24-03, 05:39 PM

First of all, thanks to everyone for their insight. Since I am just getting started I needed to do quite a bit of reading, and I see there's a lot of info to read up on!

Here's another thing, my chimney and the part of my attic with floorboards are both on the west side of the house, which is good considering that's the direction I want to point. But that's also the side of the house where the power lines come down from the pole. And the more I've been thinking, the idea of me hanging on to a metal rod a couple of feet away from lots of electric current makes me nervous! (Not to mention possible interference.) Are there any reputable installers in the area? I don't know about tackling a chimney installation that close to power.

I could always try the attic install and see how it goes before considering outdoor. I won't have a chance to do this for a couple of weeks but I just wanted to post again to say thanks for all that info and hopefully by the time I'm ready to try this I'll be a lot more knowledgable about everything.

John, got a picture of your attic install (or know of one similar)?

Is it really a good idea to set up a UHF only antenna when stations may be switching back to their analog VHF frequencies after the switch (and WCPO-DT et al are broadcasting on VHF today)?

Enough for now I suppose!

Thanks again
Dirac

Nitewatchman

09-24-03, 09:10 PM

Dirac,

Yes, You definitely don't want to put the antenna near utility lines! There are the safety issues involved, but you also don't want to mount the antenna so if disaster occurs pieces of it/etc. can fall on the utility lines, this is true whether you, or an installer installs the antenna.

Also, with an outdoor install, you want to make sure your setup is properly grounded to prevent static discharge from damaging your equipment, as well as to meet NEC. It should help, but it won't necesarily allways save your antenna from a direct lightning strike, which would be very rare for lightning to "choose" your antenna instead of a nearby tree/etc. The Mast, and Outer Conductor on the Coax must be grounded, these grounds must be bonded to your A/C service ground. There are a couple of good threads on AVS concerning proper grounding.

I don't personally know of any installers in the area, but I do know in the past(you'll have to dig thorough the old cincy threads), several Cincinnati area viewers have had good luck with various installers.

Concerning VHF/UHF, personally I think It's best to use an antenna(s) which is(are) designed to perform well on both VHF/UHF, at least in this area as you noted, even presently we have DTV stations operating on VHF(WCPO-DT 10 Cincy, WSYX-DT 13 Columbus). But, it all depends upon what YOU want.

A UHF only antenna is often very convienent, as it is smaller, and the hi-gain "best of" UHF only antenna's out there such as Jon's CM4228(Since it's an 8 bay, I'm guessing that's what he is using) will perform a bit better than UHF sections on a VHF/UHF combo antenna. Also, you can allways add a seperate VHF antenna, but it will need the extra "mast room" for 2 antennas as you'll need to put them far enough apart so they won't interfere with each other.

Personally, In addition to the digital stations that are already on VHF, I also use my antennas for analog TV, and FM reception, as well as for TV/FM Dx'ing.

Using a broadband VHF/UHF combo antenna(s) which works well on VHF ch. 2-13, and UHF 14-69 is a "futureproof" one piece solution, and once it's "on the roof", given proper installation it will likely last for decades .... For instance, my current "main" TV antenna(tower mounted) and rotor is 10 years old, and still looks and works like new, the same is true for Feedline/preamp which is now 22+years old.

Again, it depends upon what you want to do, as there are many possible options(especially if you're willing to do quite a bit of experimenting), but Barring "disaster", and given proper installation, once you get what you need to achieve good reception, you won't have to mess with it again, except for using the rotor, if so desired or necessary.

FCC has ruled, and decided that Channels 2-51 will be used for DTV after analog shut-off, it's also the case that presently, the general feeling at many stations seems to be that there may not be many DTV stations which will be "choosing"(if they have a choice) to use Lo-VHF channels 2-6, because of various interference issues that are especially prevalent on those frequenies.

However, if this turns out to be the case, other stations(such as low power stations/new stations/etc.) will probably end up on Ch 2-6 in our area, but I suppose it is remotely, remotely possible that 2-6 could someday be "removed" for use by TV stations alltogether.

I personally doubt it though, and I also expect that some(or many) DTV stations will end up wanting to use 2-6 once the time comes to "make the decision" as while it is true that various interference issues are more prevalent on 2-6, it is also true that Channel 2-6 provides more coverage area for stations at lesser power, and also is "generally" easier to receive with simple antennas, and also is much more possible to receive when serious terrain issues are a reception issue than is the case on higher VHF, and especially UHF frequencies.

The reason why I'm going into all this concerning ch. 2-6 is, There is a big "gap" between ch. 6(82~88MHZ) and Ch 7(174~180MHZ), in which lies the FM Broadcast Band, 2 Meter Ham band, Frequencies used by Public service agencies/aviation/etc. And, due to the Wavelengths involved, the "biggest parts" of ch 2-13 VHF antennas, and VHF/UHF combo antennas are the section that is used for channels 2-6(and can be used for FM radio reception, too).

So, depending upon what actually happens, If all the DTV stations in the area do "stay off" 2-6 after analog shut off, one option(which would also work perfectly now for DTV reception in our area as well) would be to use a smaller, Hi-band VHF antenna for ch. 7-13 and a seperate UHF antenna. In addition to being "smaller", This sort of setup also generally can provide the best performance, as antennas generally work best if they can be designed to work on the "narrowest" range of frequenies possible. Best way to combine seperate VHF/UHF antennas onto the same feedline are either via an inexpensive VHF/UHF combiner, or a preamp with seperate VHF/UHF inputs.

Someday, who knows, perhaps they will make also combo Hi-VHF(ch 7-13)+UHF antennas, I don't know of any presently, however.

Nitewatchman

09-24-03, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by Jon_E_R
Dirac,

I hate to disagree with nightwatchman but he is right every location is unique but my channel master 8 bay UHF attic mounted antenna @224 deg. picks up all Cincy channels except (DT-9(ABC)) and I receive all the Dayton channels at 100% signal strength with NO problems. Static mounted in attic.

John

Jon,

I don't see that you are disagreeing with me, I didn't say it absolutely couldn't/wouldn't work for Dirac from his location with one heading. What I said was, given the 60 degree+ difference(Which is true in your location as well) it would probably work best, and be most likely to prevent reception problems/dropouts/etc to use a rotor, or seperate antennas. If it were me, as I also think I mentioned, I'd try it first via "manual aiming" first to see what happens.

Also, although the type of antenna you are using(CM4228 UHF only 8-bay bowtie) is quite directional(a 4 bay would have a little less directivity), it's also the case that "bowtie" type antennas are probably the best to use when you have quite a "spread" of stations you are trying to receive. I think expecting to get good reception(100% of the time, no dropouts) from a station when aimed 60 degrees off target is usually going to be a little much, even for the CM 4bay or 8bay bowtie.

I do think your antenna/attic must be a pretty special spot for the Cincy TV signals(~50 miles from Xenia). Given your results with Cincy, I'd think you should be able to get the Columbus stations as well as the WB HD/UPN digital station in Chillocothe as well, perhaps with a little antenna aiming.

BTW, These are all the Cincy area Digital stations currently on the air:

WCPO-DT 10 (remap to 9-x) ABC HD
WCVN-DT 24 (remap to 54-x) KET/PBS HD(sometimes)
WXIX-DT 29 (remap to 19-1) - Fox Widescreen(currently off air)
WKRC-DT 31 (remap to 12-1) CBS HD
WSTR-DT 33 (Remap to 64-1) WB (No HD)
WCET-DT 34 (remap to 48-x) PBS HD(sometimes)
WLWT-DT 35 (remap to 5-1) NBC HD
WKOI-DT 39 - TBN - Tower near Oxford, Ohio

Nitewatchman

09-24-03, 10:36 PM

Sorry for all the posts, but thought you all might want to know that I talked to a couple of folks at WBDT-DT(WB Dayton) Today, and the Good news is, they ARE planning on doing WB HD in the future, and that they are currently working on the timetable. Also, the good news is, at least one of the WBDT guys is one of us with a HD display, DTV receiver and antenna on his roof :-)

The bad news is, they couldn't give me a definite date for HD yet. Still, It might be useful if anyone would like to drop them a short note and let them know you+your family are watching their digital station, and that you'd like to see WB HD soon --- I used the "ask us/comments" email address shown on their website : questions@daytonswb.com

Also, In case you didn't know, WB currently offers the Following programs in HD :

Everwood
Smallville
Reba
Gilmore Girls
Angel
One Tree Hill
Run Of The House
Like Family
All About the Andersons
Tarzan
What I Like About You

Paul210

09-25-03, 08:39 AM

I noticed WHIO-DT had another sub last night--41-2. I bet that will help with the artifacts!

Nitewatchman

09-25-03, 11:25 AM

Aargh! It's back, and It's still there too today :-((((

Just a SD simulcast of WHIO programming presently .... If they absolutely MUST have the SD sub, why can't they actually make it useful and put UPN on it ... I DID read recently that UPN had put together an agreement with "Top 4 affilaites" in small market stations to run UPN on DTV subchannels, which Would make sense in Dayton since we don't have a UPN OTA station ... I guess That would make too much sense though, and still, I'd take CBS HD in all it's Full, 19.39mb/s glory over anything else!

I honestly wonder also if they just didn't realize it has been gone since earlier this year, and they've still been allocating too little bandwidth to HD .. My guess, about 14mb/s ... During SEC football and the Cleveland Game last week, Noticed that Compression artifcats looked a tad worse than on WKRC-DT .... Of course, WBNS-DT(when I can see them), CBS Columbus' HD allways looks great and artifact free --- No surprise since they allocate all the available bandwidth to HD!

Nitewatchman

09-25-03, 05:04 PM

Finally! After Being on air since 5/1/02, (According to FCC info, their CP was granted on 11/2/02), and myself repeatedly asking for info from their engineering staff, I FINALLY have an indication of the facilities they may be operating with, other than the CP info(Full power CP is for 425KW ERP, same height/pattern antenna pattern as below).

The following STA was just "accepted for filing" By FCC yesterday for WRGT-DT 30 -- IF this is what they are/have been operating with, I can tell you it puts a very good signal into here from 12 miles out -- Under following STA power/antenna pattern(optimized towards Springfield), given the relative field value shown in my direction(222deg), that would be about 1KW ERP being sent in my direction, which isn't much! I'll have to check after the STA is granted, and see if anything changes with their signal here... :

WRGT-TV OH DAYTON USA (Digital)

Licensee: WRGT LICENSEE, LLC
Service Designation: DS Special Temporary Authority (STA) (digital)

Channel 30 (566-572 MHz) Special Tem
File No.: BDSTA -20030911ACD Facility ID No: 411
CDBS Application ID No.: 687931

39 ° 43' 28.00" Latitude Zone:
84 ° 15' 18.00" Longitude (NAD27) Frequency Offset: None
Effective Radiated Power (ERP): 15.3 kW ERP
Ant. Height Above Average Terrain (HAAT): 351.0 meters HAAT
Ant. Radiation Center Above Mean Sea Level: 616.1 meters RCAMSL
Ant. Radiation Center Above Ground Level: meters RCAGL

Directional Antenna ID: 64344 Pattern Rotation: °
Ant. Make: Dielectric Ant. Model:
Not in a Border Zone
.
20.7 km distant from 39 35 1.00 Lat 84 24 46.00 Lon, at a
bearing of 40.73° using the distance method in 47 CFR Section 73.611.
.
Relative Field Values for the Directional Antenna:
Directional antenna relative field values do not include clockwise rotation, if shown above.

0° 0.987 90° 0.614 180° 0.362 270° 0.495
10° 1.000 100° 0.560 190° 0.379 280° 0.559
20° 0.987 110° 0.496 200° 0.362 290° 0.613
30° 0.950 120° 0.420 210° 0.317 300° 0.662
40° 0.896 130° 0.338 220° 0.263 310° 0.713
50° 0.833 140° 0.267 230° 0.236 320° 0.770
60° 0.771 150° 0.237 240° 0.267 330° 0.833
70° 0.714 160° 0.264 250° 0.338 340° 0.895
80° 0.663 170° 0.317 260° 0.420 350° 0.950

Relative Field Polar Plot includes any rotation listed above

39 ° 43' 28.00" Latitude Zone:
84 ° 15' 18.00" Longitude (NAD27) Frequency Offset: None

update: You know, the more I think about this, the more I suspect(just speculating of course) that WRGT-DT Has been operating at Fairly high power so far, and, perhaps is planning on Turning down the juice to the 15.3KW ERP STA shown above(less, and in some cases much less will be sent in directions showing less than 1.000 in the relative field values above) .... Which would certianly be fine by me(for now) if perhaps they want to cut the power bills,etc, and instead spend that money on equipment for HD or Fox Widescreen passthrough ....

Given what I've seen here with their signal so far,(When I've checked it, I can get it with ".99 cent Bowtie/Folded dipole UHF" through 4 walls with a settop antenna), I certianly find it hard to believe they're only sending 1KW ERP my way presently, whearas with Their Full Power CP, they'd be sending 30KW ERP my way(425KW to the NNE), and that would be much more "conducive" to what I've seen with their signal. Although, I'm in WHIO-DT's antennas greatest null for their current 275KW ERP STA, and they should be sending only 9KW this way, but I get them fine with outdoor antenna -- and can get them from indoors --- Barely, with "the .99 cent bowtie near a window facing NE -- but Not from the settop though.

Jon

09-25-03, 05:42 PM

Jeff,

I'm new to this thread but a long time HD fanatic. I'm curious about channel 45's digital signal. Have they ever broadcast in Fox Widescreen? Do you know when if ever they will broadcast a HD signal?

Thanks for your knowledge!
John

Nitewatchman

09-25-03, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Jon
I'm curious about channel 45's digital signal. Have they ever broadcast in Fox Widescreen?

Jon,

No, they have never broadcast Fox Widescreen since first coming on the air on 5/1/02.

Also, like WHIO-DT 41 and WKEF-DT 51, their digital channel 30 does not remap on receivers via PSIP to 45-x. Some receivers which use EPG from D* for digital channel remapping may make it "look like" they remap, but they don't.

I keep asking them for Fox Widescreen though! Right after they came on the air, when I asked them about it If I recall correctly I believe they said something like "There is no reason to do it."

I of course, disagree, since I certianly have been enjoying Fox Widescreen(when they do it right!) from WXIX-DT Cincinnati.

The following programming is broadcast in Fox Widescreen(from stations that do Fox widescreen) :

2003 Nascar(1st 1/2 of season, hopefully next year too)
Selected Sunday NFL Games
2003 World Series
Some Movies
24
Bernie Mac show
Cedric the Entertainer
The O.C.
Boston Public
Oliver Beene
Malcom in the Middle
Fox News Sunday

2003 Emmy's were also in Fox widescreen, but I couldn't see them(or any other Fox Widescreen) as WXIX-DT was "messed up" and non-decodable From last friday until just earlier today ... IT seems to be fixed now, though -- At least presently(8:40pm), although between 8-8:30 the aspect ratio was wrong. WXIX-DT has had frequent, repeated problems with sending correct aspect ratio for Fox Programming, as well as other technical problems .... Which is another reason why it would be nice if WRGT-DT would do Fox widescreen, if they would do it right ....

Anyhow, Might be something else missing from that list too, as Fox doesn't actually have "list" -- Any new non-reality type show this season I'd assume will be in Fox Widescreen.

Furthermore, during all Fox programming(even 4x3 SD stuff such as Simpsons/70's show/etc.), you get a bit better PQ("basically" 480p DVD quality, but 4x3) from stations such as WXIX-DT, something you don't get from WRGT-DT.

Also, WXIX-DT Fox Cincy upconverts the Fox 480p to 1080i for broadcast with a professional upconverter, and I think(again, when they do it right) it looks, very very good, which may not be the case from all Fox affiliates that do Fox widescreen ... Not HD, anyone can see that, but it does look like a very good DVD at 480p. Live Fox Widescreen sports/etc. hasn't "generally" seem to look quite as good as the other stuff, but IMO, there have been some exceptions.

I also know that the Fox affiliate in Columbus(WTTE-DT - Quite Low powered BTW) does Fox Widescreen, and it is owned by the same company that owns WKEF/DT(NBC Dayton), and operates WRGT/DT Fox Dayton. My understanding also is that at first, WTTE-DT didn't do Fox widescreen and I don't believe they planned on doing Fox Widescreen, but after many DTV viewers asked them for Fox Widescreen they started doing it soon afterwards. So, again, if might be helpful for as many digital viewers as possible to contact WRGT and ask them for Fox Widescreen now, and for Fox HD when it becomes available from Fox.

Contact info for WKEF/WRGT is here:

http://www.nbc22.com/feedback/index.htm

You can also send questions/remarks comments to the email address concerning DTV/HD listed on the website of the company which owns/operates WKEF/WRGT :

dtv@sbginet.com

There is another recent twist to this story, too ...

Recently, the Company(Sinclair, or SBG) that operates WRGT(Fox Dayton) added a new section to their website (here: http://www.sbgi.net/business/dtv/ )concerning DTV/HD and their DTV stations(the link above), and which of the 62 stations they own and/or operate do HD/etc.

As you can see by their list, here:

http://www.sbgi.net/business/markets/dayton.shtml

They show BOTH WKEF-DT and WRGT-DT as being "HD ready". I'm not sure whether that's just incorrect info or what at this point.

As we know, WKEF-DT does provide NBC HD, and WSYX-DT Columbus(also on the list) Also provides ABC HD. I/we have also been addressing issues concerning Sinclair DTV stations+HD in the following thread, and one of the Sinclair folks(Mr. DTV) posts info there as well. Comments posted by Mr. DTV recently seem to indicate "positive things" happening DTV/HD wise at Sinclair, so hopefully, that means positive things for us where WRGT Fox Dayton, WSTR-DT WB Cincinnati(also a Sinclair station), and more consistant HD from WKEF-DT are concerned. Concerning the latter, Mr. DTV reports later in the following thread that automation equipment for switching is one of the many HD/DTV issues he/Sinclair is currently working on.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2707504#post2707504

Do you know when if ever they will broadcast a HD signal?

Unfortunetly, no. I've heard nothing about this either, although I've asked. Another good question for you, and others to ask them<g>! If you or anyone hears anything be sure to tell us about it. Hopefully, the info on Sinclair website that shows WRGT-DT already "HD-ready" is a good sign. I do ASSUME that someday, they will offer Fox HD, and I'm thinking that someday, perhaps fairly soon, we'll be able to get some info on it. I do believe Fox's plan is to be switched to HD by Fall 2004 season --

That doesn't necessarily mean all their affiliates will be doing HD by then. however, I would also assume that WXIX-DT Cincinnati will probably be doing Fox HD as soon(or shortly thereafter) as Fox begins providing HD to its affiliates. I'm pretty sure that WXIX-DT is really pretty much already ready for HD(except for the HD receiving equipment from Fox, and Fox will likely provide that). In fact, WXIX-DT was their owner's(Raycom) "Beta Test site" for HD.