The problem with "negotiating" with them now is that they want you to bundle everything before giving you a deal (Phone/Roadrunner/TV).

That's not necessarily true... I've negotiated my roadrunner down to $29.95 every time they raise it back to $49.95 (since I don't have cable or phone with them). I always just ask to speak with retentions... Prior to making the switch to Dish, I would just do the same as Vader... I'd call every time my bill went up and tell them that there was an offer in the mail to get Dish for free and $X/mo and I was calling to cancel. They'd almost always come back with some sort of "win back campaign" :)

^ Huh. Interesting. Would have thought what you're describing as "antenna setup" would have probably worked --- Assuming the "antenna setup" doesn't just involve info "re-downloaded" from DirecTV ...

WHIO-DT apparently made some changes recently regarding how their program streams are "formatted"(to say it in a "non-technical" way), which may require some receivers to "replace" the info they save when they first "scan in" or receive the channel OTA, as the "old" info that at some time in the past that was "previously" received from WHIO-DT and saved by the receiver is probably no longer relevant. In my experience, some OTA Only receivers "update" that sort of info everytime you "tune" to each station, others only update/save it during a "channel scan".

This involves information the station is sending, OTA, that is normally "handled" by the receiver from the OTA signals --- not something that would probably be coming from DirecTV off the satellite (such as the channel info from the D* EPG info) -- But, Whether or not DirecTV needs to change some info they're sending regarding changes WHIO made, I have no idea.

Suppose it's also possible changes WHIO-DT made are causing problems with your receiver model, regardless of the above, all I can offer there is I'm not having any problems with them+my receivers(all of them are OTA only and none of them are D* or HR20 receivers) ..

In any case, probably likely someone using a HR20 can provide you with better info/reports on whether they're having the problem or not ...

I figured out the problem last night. You have to do a complete guide data reset to get 7-1 to come back. Once I did that I was ok. Lost all my guide data though, but not a big deal.

That's not necessarily true... I've negotiated my roadrunner down to $29.95 every time they raise it back to $49.95 (since I don't have cable or phone with them). I always just ask to speak with retentions... Prior to making the switch to Dish, I would just do the same as Vader... I'd call every time my bill went up and tell them that there was an offer in the mail to get Dish for free and $X/mo and I was calling to cancel. They'd almost always come back with some sort of "win back campaign" :)

Yea, the problem I had, was that I had earthlink instead of RR, so I would have to make the switch to get the deal.

I have finally gotten tired of waiting for TWC to ink a deal with NBC so I decided to see if I could pick up WLIO-DT over the air. It's been killing me watching Sunday Night Football in SD.

I wasn't sure if I could pick it up or not since I'm atleast 22 miles away from the transmitter. I borrowed an amplified indoor antenna (rabbit ears) from a friend and was able to pull the station in.

Can anyone suggest an inexpensive (<$50) antenna? I want to buy from a nearby store so if I have to return it I won't have to drive far. That pretty much limits me to Radio Shack or Wally-World. Any suggestions?

Is this any good? http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2625059

This is the one I borrowed, and it works OK. Is the one above better? http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103916&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&parentPage=family

In the specs the Wal-Mart one says it amplifies 45db. The Radio Shack one states 22db amplification. Is there much to this number when comparing two antennas?

MORE HD CHANNELS FROM TWC! I just noticed Food Network and HGTV in HD. Channels 753 and 754. Nice!

The problem with "negotiating" with them now is that they want you to bundle everything before giving you a deal (Phone/Roadrunner/TV). I really tried to get a better deal from TWC before switching to Dish, but I was in the same boat as ZaijiaN, being grandfathered in, and the only way i could get a better deal was to switch from Earthlink to Roadrunner (didn't want to change my email addy), and get Digital Phone (which i wouldn't have had a problem with, because I already have VOIP with Lingo, but TWC can't touch my 14.99 a month with 500 minutes that I get with Lingo)...

Sounds like the same problem I had. I had straight analog cable only (2-78). I don't want RoadRunner...I have perfectly good DSL service. I don't want Digital Phone because I make all my calls and get long distance from my cell phone. I only use my home line to fax things, and Fax machines do not play nice with VoIP. I'm not about to buy a bunch of crap I don't need.

I'm sure the more you buy from them the more they are willing to negotiate. I've been successfull negotiating with them with only buying internet and cable. There's no way I'd get phone through TWC. It's bad enough to lose internet and cable when the power goes out. I don't want to lose phone too.

I have finally gotten tired of waiting for TWC to ink a deal with NBC so I decided to see if I could pick up WLIO-DT over the air. It's been killing me watching Sunday Night Football in SD.

I wasn't sure if I could pick it up or not since I'm atleast 22 miles away from the transmitter. I borrowed an amplified indoor antenna (rabbit ears) from a friend and was able to pull the station in.

This is the one I borrowed, and it works OK. Is the one above better? ....

Can anyone suggest an inexpensive (<$50) antenna? ....


If your friend's antenna works just fine, and you receive the stations you're interested in without any "dropouts" there is something to be said by "not fixing it if it ain't broke", and no antenna will work noticably "better" if you're already acheiving perfect reception from the station you want to receive ...

BUT, if it is the case that the antenna you were/are using is working just fine(no dropouts/etc), it is also possible you may only need something that costs 1/3(or less) that much .....

If WLIO-DT is all you're interested in, they transmit on VHF channel 8(and will continue to do so after analog shut off in Feb 2009), so a pair of cheap unamplfied VHF "rabbit ears"(VHF only is all you'd need for WLIO-DT) like in below link may do the trick for you, but, OTOH the amp in your friend's antenna you're using may be helping you out as well :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062018&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&parentPage=family&parentPage=family

Here's another one for the same price with a base on it(Note: I notice it says "VHF/UHF" but I don't actuallly see a UHF loop/bowtie on it in the pic - also it doesn't say whether it's "included" feedline is 300Ohm twinlead or 75ohm(unbalanced) coax or whether or not it includes a matching transformer if it is 300Ohm twinlead :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?parentPage=family&summary=summary&techSpecs=techSpecs&currentTab=features&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&custRatings=custRatings&features=features&accessories=accessories&productId=2417021&support=support&tab=summary

If you want to DIY the info at below link that shows you how to make a homemade antenna out of a bit of twinlead would likely perform better than "rabbit ears", as a 1/2 wavelength dipole is "naturally" 72 ohm balanced and I'm not sure if "cheap rabbit ears" actually have the correct impedance matching(for any attached 300Ohm feedline ) or a 1:1 balun in them (balun=balanced to unbalanced -- 300ohm twinlead is balanced feedline, 75 ohm coax is unbalanced) .....

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

For the homemade antenna described at above link, you'd also need a 300Ohm to 75 ohm matching transformer (about ~4~5 bucks or so at Radio shack) ....

If you need something significantly "better", and again, only are interested in WLIO-DT reception you probably won't be able to get it at a nearby store, but this VHF-HI(covers ch 7-13) antenna would be a good choice to mount outdoors or perhaps even in your attic(you'd really need something like this to find a "better" VHF antenna than "rabbit ears") :

http://www.starkelectronic.com/wya6713.htm

If you're interested in UHF reception as well (such as from WTLW-DT (religious Lima, or perhaps the Bowling Green PBS HD station, or lima LP stations, not sure if any of those have went digital yet or not), none of the antennas I mention abouve would be a good choice as then you'd want both VHF+UHF reception, in which case an antenna such as the ones you're already looking at, or perhaps even better Terk HDTVi (unamplfied at below link) or the amplfied version of it (TerkHDTVa) might be a good choice:

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2350525&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&parentPage=family&parentPage=family

But, even this one at below link (VHF/UHF "budget antennas" under $15) or the ones you were already looking at may "pull in" just as many stations as a more expensive "amplfied" indoor model, it's hard to say :

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&allCount=38&fbn=Price%2F%2410.00+-+%2449.99&fbc=1&fr=StorePrice%2FRSK%2F00001000%2F00004999&parentPage=family

If you want to try for Dayton/FT Wayne/Toledo/Columbus/etc, then you'd probably want(probably need) a outdoor, high gain antenna setup(either VHF/UHF combo or seperate VHF/UHF antennas) with rotor/preamp up as high as you can get it ..... If you're 22 miles from Lima, There's likely a big difference in terms of what you'll be able to receive between an antenna setup like this(outdoor/etc) and the antennas you are looking at for (presumably) indoor use for reception of WLIO-DT ...



In the specs the Wal-Mart one says it amplifies 45db. The Radio Shack one states 22db amplification. Is there much to this number when comparing two antennas?

Basically, for an indoor "amplfied" antenna, I wouldn't put much stock in those "numbers" ....

Keep in mind, an amplifier can't increase the amount of signal being received by(at) the antenna ... In other words, if there is no, or for the most part, Not enough signal "at the antenna", an amp isn't going to help ....

It can recover losses in feedline/splitters between the amp+receiver(a 2 way splitter = about 4db of loss, 100FT of RG6 is about 4~6db of loss at UHF, much less on VHF), and can improve the system Noise figure if the preamp's noise figure is less than the receivers(which is usually the case with most high quality amps, I don't know about the ones in "indoor amplified antennas" ....

More than you wanted to know, I'm sure but hope the above is of some use ....

update: Do keep in mind it Really is impossible to say if one pair/one model of "Rabbit ears" (amplfied or not) will work better than another in any given case .... For instance, maybe your friend's antenna will work better than the one from walmart in your case, or vice versa, there's really no way to say, as it looks like they're basically using the same antenna design(VHF "rabbit ears"(1/2 wavelength dipole)+UHF full wave loop ....) ... Terk HDTVi(or a) should offer better UHF performance(basically UHF log-perodic - like the silver sensor), but it's VHF antenna is still just "rabbit ears" ....

Thanks for the reply Nitewatchman. Great information.

I am just interested in WLIO-DT so, yes, I'm just concerned about VHF reception. The amplified antenna I'm borrowing right now mostly works OK. Occassional dropouts and breakups in the video. The antenna has a dial for the amplifier and I notice that I need to have it turned all the way up to get the signal (in addtion to positioning the rabbit ears just-so). If I turn the antenna's amplifier down at all I lose the signal. That's why I thought maybe the Wal-Mart antenna with a more powerful amplifier might work better. But as I said, I wasn't sure if those numbers really were worth much when comparing one antenna to another.

Since I'm just interested in picking up WLIO and mostly just for football, an outdoor antenna or mounting one in the attic isn't something I would consider. I just want something I can hook up to the TV once or twice a week, watch a program, then put it away.

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to help me out! I really appreciate it.

That's why I thought maybe the Wal-Mart antenna with a more powerful amplifier might work better.


You'll probably have to try it to see, but I wouldn't count on it ...

The antennas you are considering are similar in price, and as amplified-* antennas go, I doubt you'll find anything much cheaper than that, so I don't see any reason not to try the one from wal-mart if you want ....

* -indeed judging from your results so far+considering your distance from WLIO and potential attenuation factors by having antenna indoors/etc, difficult to say, but I'd guess using an amp with such indoor "rabbit ears" is probably a good idea in your situation ..

I certianly don't know of any settop VHF antennas that are likely to perform any "better" than either of them, really, as they're all just "rabbit ears"(unamplified or amplified) .....

A homemade "twin-lead folded dipole" cut for channel 8 as described in the link on that I provided earlier, and used with a decent amplifier would probably provide a bit better performance -- But, unless you happen to have a decent amp lying around, that solution would still probably end up running you about $30 bucks, and we are still only talking about, potentially a "bit better" performance at best ....



am just interested in WLIO-DT so, yes, I'm just concerned about VHF reception. The amplified antenna I'm borrowing right now mostly works OK. Occassional dropouts and breakups in the video.... (in addtion to positioning the rabbit ears just-so).

Since I'm just interested in picking up WLIO and mostly just for football, an outdoor antenna or mounting one in the attic isn't something I would consider. I just want something I can hook up to the TV once or twice a week, watch a program, then put it away.


Best thing I could probably suggest that probably has the best chance of improving your reception would be to see if you can find a "spot" to place the antenna where it provides reception w/o dropouts .... There are "dead spots" and "hot spots" for signals everywhere, but at least you only need to find a hot spot that works for only ONE station ...

That spot you are looking for may not be near the TV(in fact placing the antenna near TV can be a bad idea because the TV itself among other household appliances+especially on VHF can actually produce interference), and therefore may require that you add a little extra coax to the usual short amount of it supplied with most indoor "settop" type antennas ......

You'll just have to find that spot, but generally speaking A spot near a window(or at least the "wall" of your house that faces lima) facing the transmitter can be good indoors, but who knows, a spot behind a couch or in a closet may work fine as well .....

There is some better reading on this sort of thing and "how to get the most out of rabbit ears" here :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/rabbitear.html

You'll just have to find that spot, but generally speaking A spot near a window(or at least the "wall" of your house that faces lima) facing the transmitter can be good indoors, but who knows, a spot behind a couch or in a closet may work fine as well .....

Yeah, right now I have it sitting in front of a large window pointing towards the WLIO-DT transmitter. However, it is sitting on top of a floor standing speaker, so perhaps that's not the best place for it. I'll have to move it around as much as I can to see if I can improve the reception.

BTW, I received a reply from WRGT engineer on this. I think it's OK to pass this along -- They say they're working on handling the issue. Over a week later, so I presume that means it's at the bottom of their to-do list.... :D

Over a week later, so I presume that means it's at the bottom of their to-do list.... :D

Sure seems like it. I even emailed their parent company and haven't heard a peep...

Sure seems like it. I even emailed their parent company and haven't heard a peep...

I just received an update from James at Dish Network. He said that when Rolin @ WRGT changed the TSID to 2281, he started getting calls and complaints that it was incorrect, so he changed it back. They are in the process of verifying which is the correct TSID... At least it does look like they are looking into it...

These sorts of issues can take more than a week to straighten out, and not necessarily because it's on a "back burner" ...

Update: BTW, Friday 10/5 (I think it was around 8pm) noticed WKEF-DT EPG info being sent OTA via PSIP indicated a Colts vs. Bengals preseason football game which aired well over a month ago was currently airing, LOL .....

Also, I did just notice at 4:45pm that after about 3 days of not being sent properly, WHIO-DT's PSIP EPG info is "working"/being sent correctly again ....

Now, from what I can tell, providing accurate EPG info OTA via PSIP EIT's certianly does seem to be on the "back burner" from several stations in the area ...... ;)

It would seem that Dish Network is taking the DT signal, downconverting to SD, then uplinking to the satellite. I was seeing both on satellite (SD) and OTA (digital/HD channel) the Jets vs Patriots while browerjs was seeing over TWC in SD the Browns game. As soon as the digital channel switched over to the Browns the satellite version switched as well.



This is definately happening. Last night I watched my DVR'd episode of "Two and a Half Men" from monday night recorded from the satellite feed (SD). I noticed right away that the rating was cut off in the upper left corner, then in the bottom right i could see the CBS-HD logo twirling around (although it was cut off)... I wonder if any of the other dayton locals are doing this?

Yes, I wonder that as well, and how many in other markets also, for that matter.

I don't see a problem with the downrezzing to SD as long as all "interested parties" agreed to that, but I'm a bit surprised using a 4x3 center cut of what is formatted as 16x9 would be considered "OK" by either CBS, WHIO or E* for this sort of application, as while much material is produced with a 4x3 "safe area" in mind, I believe some material that runs on CBS HD is not ....

Anyway --- I think you guys will find the article at following URL I just came across quite interesting, as it relates to this, and details some of E* and D*'s issues regarding "transistioning" to using broadcasters digital signals for their LiL service :

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.8839.html

Especially interesting considering what you guys are seeing from WHIO via E*, are the comments about:

#1) WPSD's 16x9 signal, and that it says E* doesn't want to carry it because of "aspect ratio problems"/etc, and that it's "16x9 all the time" (as any station sending HD would be)

#2) WSIL, which it says E*, D* and cableco is using a 4x3 SD using a "ancillary digital channel"(that means multicast subchannel like WDTN-DT does on 2.2) for the 4x3 feed ....

So, I wonder ... After 2/17/09 Will we see many stations "add" a multicast 480i 4x3 "subchannel" to feed DBS+Cableco's a 480i 4x3 SD digital Feed, or will they feed the "big" cableco's/etc a 4x3 SD feed via fiber, and/or will we see "downrezzing" to a 16x9 letterboxed version, or a 4x3 center cut version on cable/DBS SD LiL be the norm ....

I'd bet we may see all of those to some extent, but I'm hoping in cases where it any additional "multicasting/simulcasting" that the "4x3 SD feeds" will be fairly rare and just a "temporary" measure more than anything else ...

Since I had said earlier I'd follow up on this ...

7pm EDT Monday 10/9 TSreader now showing the following TSID info from WRGT-DT (OTA) ...

----------------------------------------

From PAT PID 0x0000 :

PAT Version Number: 2

Transport Stream ID: 2281 (0x08e9)

-----------------------------------------

From TVCT, and PMT PID 0x0030 (for 45.1 program service), and PMT PID 0x0040(for 45.2
program service) :

TSID: 2281 (0x08e9) NTSC: 45 ATSC: 30 OH DAYTON

----------

Update: I do believe that is exactly as it should be ....

Thanks Jeff! I actually received an email from WRGT's engineer (Roland) confirming that they had found the problem and corrected it. After a rescan of the locals, I now have guide data for WRGT-DT!

As do I

[QUOTE=Nitewatchman;Lima LP stations, not sure if any of those have went digital yet or not.]

the local LP stations here in Lima are not broadcasting a digital signal yet. I am not sure what the plan is for the local ABC, CBS, and Fox channels here in town (all operated by the same company).

Joe,

Thanks for the info. I think LP digital is really just getting started, as FCC didn't develop rules for LP's to go digital until late 2004. We do have several LP stations in Cincinnati/Dayton area which have construction permits from FCC to build LP digital stations(either flash cut on channel, or digital companion channels), but none of them are yet on the air.

If you go to FCC's TV query (http://www.fcc.gov/mb/video/tvq.html), choose "OH" for state, Type "Lima" for city and choose the "detailed info+cdbs links" in the "Output -- Select TV Query or TV List" drop down selection box, and then scroll down through the list, It does show the following Lima LP stations have applied to FCC for digital stations, but none of them have been granted yet by FCC - Note: you might find info on more stations in your area if you use the "search by radius" search function instead ...

WLQP-LP Applied for LP digital on channel 18 (Flash cut) - If you click on their "application list" link in the TVquery output, you'll see the LD(low power digital) application was filed in spring 2006 ... If you then click on the blue "application" link from the "application list" entry next to the 4/3/06 date, you can see the application they sent to FCC, as well as links to attached exhibits ... note they have "appended" the application, and there appears to be a interference issue they're working on ... note: you can follow this same procedure to view the actual applications/attached exhibits for the below stations LD apps as well ...

W61CZ (religious I believe) - has a CP for 23 for their analog, an a digital app for channel 23 (flash cut I presume) filed in March 07 ...

WLMO-LP - Digital LP flash cut application from Spring 06 on channel 38 ..

There is also a "new" (no callsign) digital App listed for Channel 25 .. I didn't look up the facility ID info off the app itself/etc. to see if it matches, but since the owner is "TV-67" for both the new app and WOHL-LP, Looks like that one is probably from WOHL-LP ...

Note: difficult to say if any of these will "pan out" anytime soon, or whether they'll end up filing new/different apps ....

Well, I ended up picking up this antenna:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2625059

It works great. It pulls in WLIO quite well. Now I can watch NFL and Bionic Woman in HD. :D

I've seen some people confused (not here) about WHIO's newscasts and thinking they're "HD" now (as of a few months or so). It is not, right ? It's still 16:9 SD (though damn good looking nonetheless).

Did it change to true HD ? I don't think it did.

I'm pretty sure the in studio shots are HD. When they show a feed from in the field, you can tell a definite drop in quality/resolution (although some stories seem to be in HD as well).

If WHIO is not advertising it like mad (see WCPO-DT), then I doubt any of their production is in HD yet.

I distinctly remember when they did advertise the upcoming change and they NEVER mentioned HD. They mentioned "widescreen" (and something about us getting "more" in the process).

If that really is the case, Dish Network HD sucks more than I think lol. In a direct comparison, WHIO-DT news vs. HDNews -- WHIO-DT wins (in my opinion) -- then again, I only have a 720p 42" LCD, so I may not be able to tell the difference.

I'm pretty sure the in studio shots are HD. When they show a feed from in the field, you can tell a definite drop in quality/resolution (although some stories seem to be in HD as well).

Unless WHIO-TV has bought new camera's in the last year the studio camera's are SD.

I do remember hearing they purchased HD cameras, but their product is still SD

If you would like to determine if WHIO is true HD. During WHIO's morning newscast switch to WDTN-HD and look at the NBC Today show in true HD. Look at the eyes and notice the sparkle. When in a close-up you can even see their retina in the eyes.
Even though WHIO may be transmitting in 1920 x 1080i the image contained is not HD. It is wide screen SD with very good cameras.

anyone here know if "hall" works for timewarner?

No, I do not. Why ?

i just assumed you did, is all/ you seem to know quite a bit about tw dayton.. here and at the dsl reports.. was just curious is all :)

Halls a mole! Git 'em.......:D

Sorry... I was a customer in the past but have been a Dish Network customer for a while now (and was before I went to TWC for as long as their promo offer lasted). Anything I know about TW is probably old news or fairly common knowledge.

Time Warner has added 2 new HD channels in the Dayton area today. A&E HD on channel 750 and History channel HD on channel 751. That brings the total to 5 new HD channels this month.

i wonder by chance if any of those are actually on via the qam tuner without authorizations in place yet :)
i would do a search but gees i hate having to delete all those digi channels it finds!

is there an easier way to search for these channels without having to wait 30 to 40 minutes and then having to remove all the junk?

I just noticed 22.1 (WKEF) and 45.1 (WRGT) were gone on my bedroom TV which I use the QAM tuner on. After a recan I found them up at 93.1 and 93.3. Does TWC remap (or whatever it's called) QAM channels around a lot? I can see that being a pain.

I think I read in the Columbus thread that TW-Mid Ohio was doing this re-mapping but when I was at my parents in Lima recently, very few were re-mapped to their "call sign.x" numbers. I suspect though that TW Columbus and TW Lima are not "linked" that closely on the engineering or plant side and it's primarily on the administration side.

I don't recall anyone mentioning that TW Dayton/Cincy does this re-mapping.

cableco's with 750MHZ capacity or greater are required by FCC to implement PSIP, but a few "specifics" of the requirements are a little different for cable vs OTA, therefore some of the PSIP data via QAM is a little different ("modified") vs. what the station sends.

TW Cincinnati does support/send PSIP data for digital broadcast signals they carry -- for more detailed info see Cincinnati thread+discussion on that as well as the VCT info in some of Plughplover's TSreader HTML output files. But, they change a few things from what the station sends(not the Virtual channel numbers themselves, however), such that, due to differences in receiver firmware design, a receiver that "works" with channel remapping OTA may or may not work with it via QAM -- In fact I suspect it's also even possible some receivers may not support PSIP via QAM at all, even if they do via OTA/ATSC.

The "93-x" channel numbers vader mentioned are likely not "remapped" channels, and instead, the "93" is likely the channel number of actual transmission on TW's system in his area (which correspond to the cable channel frequencies/channels shown in this chart : http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html ), and the "-x" number is the MPEG2 program number.

Keep in mind that a QAM 256 channel offers twice the payload rate of ATSC, therefore the datastreams from at least two "complete" ATSC stations can fit in a single channel (such as channel 93) --- In order to do this, cable systems remultiplex the datastreams from "different" stations/services "into" a single transport stream(has to be one transport stream per channel), and in order to do this, some of the various metadata has to be changed as well (for instance, the TSID has to be changed so there is "one" per channel/transport stream), and PID's have to be "renumbered", and PAT/PMT has to be regenerated for the "new" data that applies to the transport stream ...

Anyway, For some reason, it appears some of the PSIP data being sent by TW has changed a bit(or is not currently being sent for WKEF-DT or WRGT-DT) in Vader's case, and now his receiver isn't "working" with the channel remapping info -- Note that also, it is not entirely uncommon for the cable system to "change" the "Actual channel" the signals are being sent on from time to time, either ....

I'm getting TWC in the Sidney area if that makes any difference or helps at all.

I'm in Cincinnati and fed up with WKRC delaying Sunday primetime and only showing it in SD after late football games. I get a pretty good signal from WHIO. Do they typically delay Sunday primetime or cut into the HD feed "already in progress?"

We record Cold Case and I don't know if it was last year or the year prior, but if it got delayed from football, it would NOT be in HD. WHIO didn't (may still not) have the proper equipment to tape-delay programming. I can check to see about last Sunday's episode (we haven't watched it yet).

CBS primetime was SD this past sunday from both WKRC+WHIO, both carried the Bengals game(not a national game) which went past 7pm.

Sometimes, however, you might get a different game on WHIO vs. WKRC (or no 4pm game on one vs the other), and you might get HD on one+not the other. If the 4pm game goes over+ it's a game that airs on some sort of "majority" of affiliates, then the CBS HD feed might be delayed by CBS.

I'm not sure if it is accurate or not, but Think I read somewhere that CBS may send the Sunday night prime time feed to affiliates on Sunday mornings, so stations with the capability/equipment to time-shift the programming+"coordinate" it with the SD feed on the analog station(for commercial breaks/etc) can do so can use that if their game goes over ...

Thanks Nitewatchman. That answers my question perfectly. It sounds like a difference would be pretty rare, so I'll stick with WKRC for now.

Hi guys, I had a question regarding Fox 45 in Dayton. I have the Dish VIP-622, I believe, HD DVR and an OTA antenna for HD locals. Pretty much all the locals except 45 and 43(?) have program guide data listed in the Dish guide. i am wondering if anything can be done to get the info for Fox on the guide. It's making hard to DVR anything HD on Fox and there are a few things I would like to be able to tape.

Thanks a lot.

Hi guys, I had a question regarding Fox 45 in Dayton. I have the Dish VIP-622, I believe, HD DVR and an OTA antenna for HD locals. Pretty much all the locals except 45 and 43(?) have program guide data listed in the Dish guide. i am wondering if anything can be done to get the info for Fox on the guide. It's making hard to DVR anything HD on Fox and there are a few things I would like to be able to tape.

Thanks a lot.

There was a problem with the TSID that WRGT was putting across that was causing the guide data not to come through. The issue has since been fixed, and a simple rescan of locals (or just delete WRGT-DT, and then manually readd it) will give you guide data... there was much discussion on this issue in the last couple of pages of this thread if you want to find out more...

I know you're not interested in channel 43, WKOI, but just for your information, it's not likely that we'll see guide data for those channels. Reason being is that Dish doesn't carry the analog channel and only provides guide data for those that they do carry.

Hi guys, I had a question regarding Fox 45 in Dayton. I have the Dish VIP-622, I believe, HD DVR and an OTA antenna for HD locals. Pretty much all the locals except 45 and 43(?) have program guide data listed in the Dish guide. i am wondering if anything can be done to get the info for Fox on the guide. It's making hard to DVR anything HD on Fox and there are a few things I would like to be able to tape.

Thanks a lot.

Hey there Jester, I've got a pretty identical setup to yours with the Dish and DVR with an OTA antenna for HD channels.

Are you also signed up for Dish's dayton locals? When I was signed up for their (SD) locals, I got the program info that matched what the antenna could pick up. When I dropped their local package and just relied on my antenna for the HD locals, all I see is "Digital Service" on all the channels (2,7,22,26,45).

I've always wondered why the VIP-622 couldn't pick up any of the programming info from those channels.

Was anyone else out there watching the MLB playoffs last night on Fox? Up in Springfield, I barely get higher than 75-80 signal strength for any of the Dayton channels. Last night WRGT 45.1 and .2 skyrocketed up to 99-100, and it was the only channel that did it.

Anyone have the info on if they boosted their signal way up? How long are they planning on keeping it boosted?

I don't know if stations are "allowed" to do that without getting permission from the FCC first. Is it possible your receiver just got a s/w update ? The 622s (certain serial numbers) are getting one at the moment and that could be the reason.

Or with the temperature drop and wind/rain gregarious119 may have had some leaves drop that have been blocking the signal.

I don't know if stations are "allowed" to do that without getting permission from the FCC first. Is it possible your receiver just got a s/w update ? The 622s (certain serial numbers) are getting one at the moment and that could be the reason.

Or with the temperature drop and wind/rain gregarious119 may have had some leaves drop that have been blocking the signal.

I guess those are both possible, but I would've thought it would've applied to all the stations I've been getting. Since I'm far enough away (Springfield), the antenna farm is all within a degree of each other.

The boost in signal was specific to Channel 45, and conveniently timed with the beginning of the playoffs. Is there anyone at Fox45 to contact to see what happened? I can check on the 622 and see what the firmware is, but I haven't noticed anything else different on there either...

I don't know what the details are or why, but last night WKEF was scrolling a message about technical difficulties and being unable to show HD versions of last night's shows.

The fact that they acknowledge we exist is nice to see ! Thank you WKEF !

Now the skeptic in me wonders if they did that to stop phone calls from people complaining.

I some questions regarding HD signals over Time Warner Dayton Cable using my own HD receiver STB. I currently have TW Basic Service (20 something channels) and a Samsung H260F HDTV receiver (QAM capable). I plug the TW cable into the back of the receiver and I can get the HD signals over the TW service. However, I am only able to pick up WHIO 7-1 abd 7-2 along with a number of PBS/CET channels. I can't seem to find ABC, NBC, and CW. I have heard that when getting the signals over TW cable, sometimes the channels map to different numbers. (I called TW today and they had no idea and said I was the first person they knew of asking for the channel maps)
- Has anyone else tried to get HD signals over TW basic cable with their own HD box?
- Have you had any luck locating these other HD channels/signals?
- Any ideas why I can't find them?
- Doesn't TW have to broadcast the HD signals unencrypted due to the recent must carry law revisions regarding HD signals?

A co-worker said that his TV w/built-in QAM tuner gets WHIO on 7.1 and 7.2. I'd presume that you'd get ABC at 22.1 and FOX and CW at 45.1 and 45.2. If not, try up in the 80+ channel range. That's where they used to be, according to the guys with QAM tuners.

Time Warner doesn't carry WDTN-DT (NBC) at all, so don't look too hard for it.

Hello,
I can pick up all stations except ABC (22.1) fine in Digital/HD and it is driving me nuts. I get the CW fine, which is close to where ABC transmits from (although they are about the same signal strength). I am only 7.5 miles away and am using a silver sensor that is in the highest point of my attic. I have it pointed in the right direction (used compass). There are many mature trees and a water tower near me though. Any suggestions on what to try? Different antenna maybe?

I used to use a Silver Sensor (type), am about the same distance, and WKEF was the worst for me also. I believe they have the lowest output power of all the Dayton stations so I had to aim directly at them vs the "middle" of all of the broadcast towers. How high can you get the antenna ?

It has nothing to do with the power output. Probably multipath.

WBDT-DT (CW) is 35KW ERP, WKEF-DT is 138KW ERP.

I used to use a Silver Sensor (type), am about the same distance, and WKEF was the worst for me also. I believe they have the lowest output power of all the Dayton stations so I had to aim directly at them vs the "middle" of all of the broadcast towers. How high can you get the antenna ?

It is at the highest point in a single story attic, so unless I go with an outside antenna.....

Any suggestions for antennas that are good with dealing with multipath besides a more directional antenna? I would think that I may be too close to use a directional.

Any suggestions for antennas that are good with dealing with multipath besides a more directional antenna? .

Not really. The only way an antenna can be "better" at handling multipath vs. another antenna is for it to have better directivity ..... Receivers OTOH can and are getting better at handling multipath as manufactuers make improvements ......

Multipath is portions of the signal arriving at your antenna at slightly different times, because the "portions" of signal are arriving at your antenna via different signal paths, and from different direction than the "direct" signal path -- such as say, a signficant amount of signal arriving via the "direct" signal path, AND a signifcant amount of signal also arriving from a different direction via a reflection off of say, a water tower or a nearby overflying aircraft ....

So, an antenna with better directivity=better rejection of multipath. As antenna design goes, generally more gain=more directivity=larger antenna ......

That being said, Silver Sensor is a directional antenna/does have a decent amount of directivity. I don't know of any "indoor" antenna type that would offer better directivity than a Silver Sensor.

It's Difficult to say what antenna model might work best for you ---- You'll just have to experiment + find what works best, although a antenna such as AntennasdirectXG91 mounted Outdoors would probably be a good choice to combat multipath. Generally, even with an antenna with a great deal of directivity such as XG91, if stations are within 10~15 degrees azimuth heading of one another they will be received just fine ...

Outside is usually best, but even then in some situations, especially when multipath and stuff such as nearby water towers and trees/leaves blowing in the wind/etc/ causing problems are involved, it's still sometimes necessary to "find" a good spot to place antenna for best reception ....

Best I can suggest to try first is to move your current antenna around to see if you can find a "sweet spot" for reception - Attics are often multipath nightmares, and in that regard, higher is not allways "better" .... usually Best if you can keep antenna away from nearby obstructions(especially in direction of transmitters). From indoors, near a window(if it's "plain ordinary window glass, some insulated glass will increase multipath problems) facing transmitters is often a good spot.

Use of test equipment such as Spectrum analyzer where you can see the waveform+the effects of multipath "directly" would be best, but since most of us don't have those, it often Helps if you can utilize an "assistant" and a set of 2 way radios or bring a small TV+the digital receiver "along with you" when adjusting antenna, as It's not usually obvious where that "sweet spot" to place antenna for best reception is. Especially if you have multipath issues (water tower's are good for causing those, BTW) nearby, and BTW, exact "aiming" might not be best when multipath is an issue, either.

Hope that helps, I know this sort of thing can be very frustrating ..... I think It really can often(but not allways, as again multipath can be a problem with outdoor antennas as well, especially when there is "stuff" such as water towers nearby) help lower the "frustration level" in circumstances when reception issues such as these occur if you can use a directional antenna of well proven, "conventional" design mounted outdoors ...

Update:

It is also possible multipath isn't your problem. Doesn't likely have anything to do with WKEF "ouput power" level, but, it could just be your antenna is located in a "dead spot" for reception of WKEF-DT -- Keep in mind, UHF wavelengths are quite short, and therefore there can be "dead spots" and "hot spots" all over the place for any given signal on any given frequency, especially indoors given the additonal attenuation involved.

In which case moving receive antenna location around a bit to try to find a "sweet spot" for reception is often a good thing to try for this reason as well.

Also, WKEF-DT transmits on UHF channel 51, where signal loss in Coax(especially if you have a long run) is a bit higher than say, on channel 18 where WBDT-DT transmits. If that's an issue involved, it's possible adding a amp can help. Note however, that WPTD-DT Transmits on UHF channel 58, but with only around 3db more power than WKEF-DT ...

Also, unless signficant terrain blockage is involved, at 7.5 miles distant, you should really be in a strong signal area for all the Dayton stations, and generally "amps" often aren't a good idea at that distance due to potential "overload" issues -- although the potential for overload is offset quite a bit by additional attenuation occuring by having antenna indoors, so adding an amp might be useful/something you might want to try (it won't help multipath however) ---

I would still say, multipath is probably most likely "main" issue, but could even be a combination of issues involved, and there's no way for us to say with any certianity what is causing your problem ...

BTW, keep in mind, Multipath is often *very* frequency(channel) specific, such that even if you have a "ghost free" signal, on say analog WRGT 45 (which transmits off the same tower according to FCC records as WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT/ WBDT analog and digital(DT)), it doesn't mean WKEF-DT signal on 51 is "multipath free" ... If the Dayton analog UHF signals(or some of them, particularly if they get worse as you go up the dial) do have "ghosting", though, that may be at least some indication that multipath is somewhat more likely to be an issue for you for digital reception as well ...

Unfortunately, while it is generally quite easy to diagnose exactly what is causing problems for analog reception (as multipath(ghosts), weak signal("snow") and interference(various "squiggly or horizontal lines/etc) and in some cases receiver "overload" issues(stations showing up on channels they don't transmit on/etc), that's not possible with digital OTA reception+the diagnostic tools available on our receivers(which is often just a signal quality meter looking at BER+basically how easy it is to decode the datastream, rather than anything involving the actual RF signal itself, which I've seen often labeled incorrectly as a signal "strength" meter right on the screen), unless you have expensive test equipment ....

I some questions regarding HD signals over Time Warner Dayton Cable using my own HD receiver STB. I currently have TW Basic Service (20 something channels) and a Samsung H260F HDTV receiver (QAM capable). I plug the TW cable into the back of the receiver and I can get the HD signals over the TW service. However, I am only able to pick up WHIO 7-1 abd 7-2 along with a number of PBS/CET channels. I can't seem to find ABC, NBC, and CW. I have heard that when getting the signals over TW cable, sometimes the channels map to different numbers. (I called TW today and they had no idea and said I was the first person they knew of asking for the channel maps)
- Has anyone else tried to get HD signals over TW basic cable with their own HD box?
- Have you had any luck locating these other HD channels/signals?
- Any ideas why I can't find them?
- Doesn't TW have to broadcast the HD signals unencrypted due to the recent must carry law revisions regarding HD signals?

I am curious about this also in TWC Lima. I recently gave my parents a QAM capable tv as well as the Samsung tuner for their older HD RPTV. This equipment worked flawlessly for me pulling HD locals on a Comcast system.

However, my parents only receive the BG PBS channels, CBS WTOL, and Universal HD. They briefly had Fox (36.1) and ABC (13.1) but they rarely receive them now. And no NBC HD, which I do know WLIO HD is on the TWC Lima system.

What's the deal with this? Any TWC Lima customers have the same problem? It could be a weak signal at my parent's house, but it's our theory that TWC is just hosing people into buying digital cable.

Is there anyway to "report" a dirtbag cable company for screwing customers out of their HD locals which I thought they were required to send??

My parents are in Lima and I am very disappointed in the channels they receive via their QAM tuner. It's very hit-or-miss as to what channels they get and nothing like those in Dayton get via QAM (understanding different channel lineups, of course).

I wouldn't put it past them to try and force people into upgrading to digital cable but the fact that they re-map the QAM channels to their regular channel numbers is actually a positive thing and is only done for the benefit of people with QAM tuners. No one else sees them this way.

Stations have 2 sets of "rules" available to negotiate for Cable carriage :

#1). "Must carry" - Stations which meet certian requirements(certian signal level at headend serving a specific community/etc) can *invoke* must carry to ensure their signal is carried on the system .. Generally, commercial stations aren't going to want to do this unless cable doesn't want to carry their content/signals via retrasmission consent rules .... It also doesn't mean cableco's "must carry" all broadcast signals available in the area, the station *has* to ask for/allow it. Stations invoking must carry cannot also require $ or anything else to allow cable to carry their signals. Currently, Must carry *does NOT* apply to digital broadcast signals when there is also a analog station on the air - in other words, stations can't invoke must carry on a cable system for their digital signal if their analog signal is carried via cable --- Hence, most digital signals are carried on cable via retransmission consent ...

#2). Retransmission consent -- The broadcaster+the cableco reach an agreement for retransmission consent based on whatever "deal" they come to terms on ... The broadcaster may want $, or it might involve something else (such as say, carriage of a multicast digital subchannel(s) .... Obviously, since it's likely the cableco wants say, NBC, ABC, CBS Fox programming/etc on their system, affiliates of the broadcast nets which have the sole distrubtion rights for the network programming in the market are likely to use retransmission consent rules to negotiate for cable carriage rather than to invoke must carry in many/most cases, including for analog signals .... *This* is also how most commercial digital/HD stations are carried on cable systems currently, as "must carry" doesn't apply to their digital stations unless the station is "digital only" with no analog broadcast signal .... That "changes" on Feb 17,2009 when the analog stations go away, then must carry can be invoked for the digitial signal ...

-------------------------

Now -- There is differing "opinion" regarding whether or not FCC requires digital signals carried (that means signals that *are* carried by cable, none of this applies whatsoever to signals which aren't carried because cableco+broadcaster haven't reached an agreement yet for carriage of the digital signal, such as is the case with TW Dayton and WDTN) via retransmission consent agreements(instead of via Must carry) be provided "in the clear" + unencryptped/available to all subscribers, including those on the most basic tier of service ... Personally, they way I read the rules they are required to do so, but regardless whether or not that is true, what is actually happening is, most cableco's *do* carry those signals in the clear/unencrypted, but some don't, and it seems FCC is not currently enforcing it when they don't .... The latest thread I've seen on avsforum which provides some discussion on this, as well as provides links to the relevant FCC rules themselves is here : http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=926731

Now, The "newest" rules adopted by FCC regarding cable carriage of digital broadcast signals were adopted by FCC on 9/11/07, have yet to be fully "published", but the 'press releases' and various articles involved report they are mostly about requiring cableco's to provide analog "versions" of digital broadcast signals to subscribers until at least 2012 ... That could be by conversion to analog at the headend, or by providing subscribers with Digital to analog converter boxes .....

--------------------------------

It's possible, but I doubt any of the above has anything to do with why some of you aren't getting some of the stations you probably should be via QAM cable, or why they are there sometimes and not others, or why you may be getting the "channel remapping" for some and not for others ... It short, I suspect it has more to do with "techincal issues" ... Possibly on TW's end, but also possibly involving differences among how different manufacuters of your "QAM tuners" handle various "QAM tuning/program/channel selection or channel "scanning" issues ..

Note: keep in mind, while the cableco *may* be required to provide all digital broadcast signals(including HD) *they carry* "in the clear and unencrypted via QAM so that they are "available" to all subscribers, they most certianly are not required to provide the equipment necessary to decode them, nor are they required to support every manufaucturers "implementation" of these "QAM tuning"/channel selection issues ...

I talked a little bit about some of the "techincal" issues that may be involved with some of this here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11963748#post11963748

Of course, other "technical issues/possibilities" that could be involved as well, another possibility, for instance could be if you have traps in line installed by the cableco to "prevent you" from receving analog programming on a tier you are subscribed to -- in which case it's possible, depending upon where the digital broadcast signals are located on the cable system, those traps could also be "blocking" the frequencies on the cable system where the digital broadcast signals are located ...

Jeff,
Thanks for the insight and background. I think I will email the stations to see if there are any such agreements. If there are, then I will start checking my equipment and try to get time warner to let me know if they are actually even broadcasting a signal.

Eric

raptor97,

I don't have the link handy (Hall or someone else could probably point you to it), but I believe TW has a website with a list that shows all the channels (including broadcast digital/HD services) they carry in any specific service area ...

Unless something has changed, In Dayton area, you should get WHIO-DT(CBS HD), WKEF-DT(ABC HD), WRGT-DT(Fox HD+maybe MyTV SD) and WPTD-DT(thinkTV digital services including PBS HD) ... Depending on where you are located --- It's possible You might get a couple of the Cincinnati or columbus Digital PBS stations as well (such as WCET-DT including PBS HD "CET") ...

Again, unless something has changed TW Dayton hasn't reached an agreement yet for carriage of Dayton's CW digital station --- WBDT-DT (CW HD), or Dayton NBC HD affiliate -- WDTN-DT (NBC HD) ....

Don't expect to get anywhere in your quest. IMO, receiving digital channels via QAM is 100% unsupported by Time Warner, so they certainly won't help. I also think that the stations, if you get someone to even respond, will blame TW or your TV and not help (nor should they be expected to).

As Jeff noted, you *should* get CBS, ABC, FOX, and PBS via QAM from TW. You will *not* get NBC nor the WB or CW or whatever they're called now.

IMO, receiving digital channels via QAM is 100% unsupported by Time Warner, so they certainly won't help.


TW supports reception via QAM (Qaudature Amplitude Modulation), "100%". QAM is the signal modulation used for digital cable signals in U.S., including as received by TW supplied STB's ... They don't send "seperate" QAM signals to their STB's vs. what a viewer with a QAM receiver he purchased receives ...

QAM signals can be encrypted, or unencrypted ("in the clear").

User supplied "QAM tuners" ("QAM receiver" would be a more accurate term for what is often refered to as "QAM tuner"), such as those available in "digital cable ready sets" can receive/decode the unencrypted signals. An authorized "cablecard" is required for user supplied(purchased) equipment to be able to decode encrypted signals, assuming the cableco supports cablecard implementation/usage (which they are supposed to, BTW) ....

I'm guessing however, what you actually meant by your statement is that TW, or any cableco is not required/does not provide hardware support for user supplied/purchased "QAM receivers", just as they don't provide it for analog "cable ready" sets .....

Yes, what I meant was, "your TV, you're on your own. Want support ? Get a set-top from us....".

^ yep ...

For those with "basic" level of cable service, Seems to me like a good reason for those folks to drop cable alltogether, and use OTA instead ...

Can anybody in the fairborn area confirm that there are only 3 HD stations being broadcast free over QAM now? I just bought a new computer that can handle playing HD and am pretty disappointed to get everything installed only to find this out. I am picking up two PBS's and WHIO. I thought the FCC required all locals to be unencrypted?

What a change, last time I tried this I could get all the locals and PBS's, plus Discovery Theatre and TNTHD, but couldn't play them. Now I can play them but get less than half the stations I used to!

I guess I can always go get an antenna for the locals. I was looking forward to watching Discovery though. Oh well,, I couldn't even sign up for it if I wanted since no computer TV cards that I know of support encryption.

Did you read MarcSparks' post above ? Looks like he's *only* getting the same channels... TWC has changed something recently, it would seem.

Looks like I'm not the only one. Maybe I'll call them to ask about it tomorrow..

I have a feeling though that Id be on the phone for about 4 hours and never get any solid answer.

...... What a change, last time I tried this I could get all the locals and PBS's ...... Now I can play them but get less than half the stations I used to! .....


TW doesn't carry all the local digital broadcast signals, because they haven't reached an agreement for carriage of WDTN-DT(NBC HD) or WBDT-DT(CW HD). You absolutely need OTA/antenna for those, currently.

Regarding any digital local broadcast signals they do carry, Could be technical issues involved concerning such issues as : #1). how TW is providing or "formatting" certian info in the transport stream for the stations you are missing that allows your receiver to find, identify+decode the program streams, and/or #2). Issues involving how your "specific" equipment handles what TW sends regarding #1 , and or #3). I don't know exactly where the different "tiers" of analog service are "located" on their cable system, so this might not be a possibe issue ... Otherwise, They could have "moved" the channel/frequency where your "missing" signals are located on the cable system since the last time you did a "channel scan", possibly requiring a "Rescan" for channels(changes regarding #1 might require a "rescan" as well), *or* if you have traps in line, It's possible they could have moved those stations you're now missing to a frequency that the trap in your line is blocking(to prevent you from receiving analog channels you don't subscribe to that are sent on "nearby" frequencies which are also being blocked) ....


I thought the FCC required all locals to be unencrypted?



There is differing opinion regarding whether or not the FCC rules on this apply to "all broadcast signals" the cableco *carries*(they certianly don't apply to signals they don't carry at all, such as currently regarding TW Dayton -- WDTN-DT or WBDT-DT), or only broadcast signals carried via the station invoking it's must carry rights ... Some believe the rules don't apply to broadcast signals carried via retransmission consent rules, which among other things can involve, per the retransmission consent agreement between the broadcaster and the cableco --- per subscriber fees to "allow" the cableco to carry the signal ...

Those who "interpet" the rules as applying only to "must carry" signals have a point, both in the context of "must carry" legislation, and because for instance, how can a broadcast signal carried on a "basic tier" which requires "per subscriber fees" per the retransmission consent agreement between broadcaster+cableco ? -- In other words, how can those signals be "required" to be available to all subscribers on the basic tier of service when you have those paying *more*(or anything at all) for it via, say, a "HD tier" of service ... And, in the case of digital/HD signals currently, *many* analog only cable viewers with analog only "cable ready" sets don't even have access to the digital/HD broadcast signals(even though they are there and "available to them"), so who has a user supplied QAM "tuner" and who doesn't, and who on the basic service tier is a "subscriber" for whom the cableco needs to pay the station the per subscriber fees for their digital/HD signals ....

But OTOH, when congress enacted their legislation on this, did they "intend" that "basic" tier subscribers only receive the non-commercial (such as PBS), religious, and home shopping stations, as those are the stations which generally use "must carry" ... Stations with "in demand" content generally use retransmission consent rules to negotiate for cable carriage, it's the non-commerical stations or stations noone cares about which use must carry ... That legislation, IMO, actually reads like they intended for all cableco subscribers to have access to such programming as national/local news programming, as well as of course, "political ads" which they don't "mention" specifically, but .... ;)

Update:

I don't really see this as a "different" issue for analog vs. digital, other than that the analog signals are generally currently carried on basic service tier, and analog "versions"(coversion to analog at headend is one possibility) will be required to continue to be carried until at least 2012, 3 years after analog OTA shut off ... because analog stations use retrans consent instead of "must carry" as well ... Yet, how many analog broadcast signals which cableco's carry are not "available" on the basic tier of service?

TWC has changed something recently, it would seem.

The question is what .... Assuming the signals are still being carried on TW cable at all(looks like we're talking about WKEF-Dt/WRGT-DT here), Someone who is familiar with how TW has been providing the digital broadcast signals via unencyrpted QAM and who has a QAM capable capture card for PC that "works" with TSreader or other Transport stream analyzer tools might be able to tell us what is or what may be going on ...

Looks like I'm not the only one. Maybe I'll call them to ask about it tomorrow..

I have a feeling though that Id be on the phone for about 4 hours and never get any solid answer. I have a feeling you'll hang up long before that out of frustration. You'll get responses like "QAM what ?" and "you aren't subscribed to any of our digital tiers, sir, of course you don't get the HD channels" and similar....

The question is what .... Assuming the signals are still being carried on TW cable at all... It may be as simple as that they're encrypting them now too. I'm not sure what a QAM tuner such as those in newer TVs or in a PC tuner card does when it comes across those channels. It may ignore them... It seems to me that the guys who used to have TWC and QAM equipment "lost" channels like TNT-HD and/or Discovery HD Theatre. I don't know if that meant the channels simply are black-screens or if they get a "Subscription is req'd...." type message.

I have a feeling you'll hang up long before that out of frustration. You'll get responses like "QAM what ?" and "you aren't subscribed to any of our digital tiers, sir, of course you don't get the HD channels" and similar....

If he can get in touch with someone in their engineering department that knows what is "going on" with unencrypted(or encrypted for that matter) QAM signals, he might have some sort of luck ..... For example, I know that AVSforum memeber Plughplover has had some success in that regard involving TW cincinnati ... Here are a couple of his posts/reports on his communication with them regarding an specific issue he has been working with them on involving a specific issue regarding certian "user supplied" QAM receivers :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11451564#post11451564

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11615649#post11615649



It may be as simple as that they're encrypting them now too.


Ceritanly possible ...


I'm not sure what a QAM tuner such as those in newer TVs or in a PC tuner card does when it comes across those channels. It may ignore them... It seems to me that the guys who used to have TWC and QAM equipment "lost" channels like TNT-HD and/or Discovery HD Theatre. I don't know if that meant the channels simply are black-screens or if they get a "Subscription is req'd...." type message
It seems to me that the guys who used to have TWC and QAM equipment "lost" channels like TNT-HD and/or Discovery HD Theatre.


I don't know either, I'd guess ignore them, but it may differ depending upon chipset used in the "QAM tuner", firmware issues/etc .... HOWEVER, thing is, that(just ignoring them/not finding them) can happen for various reasons for Unencrypted signals that are actually "there" as well ...

A way to find out if they're encrypted that should work is to do a TS (Transport stream) capture with a QAM capable tuner card and analyze the TS with a Transport stream analyzer such as TSreader --- Note: TSreader can work with "live/real time" captures for many ATSC/QAM tuners for PC's, but not all, including that it can be "tuned" to *any* QAM channel, whether the streams within it are encrypted or not - but, for some PC tuner cards that aren't "fully supported" within TSreader, you might have to do a TS cap to a file, then have TSreader read/analyze the file from disk .

If it's encrypted, there will likely be a conditional access descriptor in the stream .. I'd have to dig through some MPEG2 or ATSC docs to say for sure, but I think if it is there, it would probably be in the PMT's, or possibly CVCT ... One could PM Plughplover+he'd be able to tell you ....

See here for a bit of a example of how this was done by Plughplover via TW Cincy+with TSreader to "identify" that Discovery+TNT-HD were changed to being encrypted/no longer avilable "in the clear QAM" :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11457555#post11457555


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11463975#post11463975

Tsreader is available here, the non-commercial version is free, but is *very* functional, although you do have to restart the program to tune to a different channel :

http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/

Sorry if this has been mentioned before:

Thought you all might be interested in the fine print regarding one-way cable cards and QAM Tuner Televisions in Time Warner's (Southwest Ohio) Newsletter.

First it mentions the HD channels we are now getting by tier:

Basic HD Tier (FREE!):

ABC-HD
CBS-HD
FOX-HD
PBS-HD
NBC-HD*


Standard HD Tier (FREE!): **

A&E HD****
History HD****
HGTV HD****
TBS HD****
Food Network HD****
ESPN HD
ESPN2 HD****
TNT HD
Discovery HD Theater


Premium HD Tier: ***

MOJO
HDNet Movies
HDNet
Universal HD


And now for the fine print:
* NBC-HD is currently not available in the Dayton and surrounding areas (of course we knew that!)
** Not available to Basic Only customers
*** Premium HD Tier available at an additional monthly rate
**** Not available to customers with a one-way cable card or QAM Tuner Televisions (this is the one I thought you all would find most interesting)

jdchap, I'm a little confused..

Is that a separate HD tier that you have to pay extra for or does that mean people with Basic Cable and Standard cable should be able to pick up those channels with a QAM tuner? Because a few of us here have reported only getting CBS-HD and a couple PBS's.

At one time I was able to get TNT HD and Discovery HD Theater with a QAM tuner. I also got ESPNHD for a week or two when it was first put on. Then they started scrambling those channels. They showed as "Encrypted" in the tuner card menu the last time I rescanned.

The last ones I got were just network affiliates. WHIO (CBS) + subchannel, WRGT (FOX) + subchannel (MNTV), WKEF (ABC) and a bunch of PBS stuff from WPTD, WPTO, and WCET.

I can't help with any further issues though, as my cable should have been turned off by now. I've since canceled TWC and gone to Dish. Anyone need a Fusion HD QAM card? ;)

jdchap, I'm a little confused.. I'll try and clarify.... Basic HD Tier (FREE!):

* ABC-HD
* CBS-HD
* FOX-HD
* PBS-HD


Standard HD Tier (FREE!): **

* A&E HD****
* History HD****
* HGTV HD****
* TBS HD****
* Food Network HD****

* ESPN HD

* ESPN2 HD****

* TNT HD
* Discovery HD Theater

Premium HD Tier: ***

* MOJO
* HDNet Movies
* HDNet
* Universal HD The items in RED should be available with the most basic level of cable service from TWC, i.e. "limited" or lifeline (typically around $8-12/mo in most areas of Dayton's region).

The items in BLUE should be available along with the above.

The items in GREEN require an HD set-top box from Time Warner but no add'l 'cost' per month on top of the normal DigiPic packages.

The items in BOLD require an HD set-top from TWC as well as paying for the "HD Tier", which is around $7/mo.

OK, thanks hall. I just wanted to make sure those were not on some sort of special HD Standard package, because I'm only getting two of those. I guess I'll give TW a call *looks wearily at the phone*

I think they make it such a pain to call in in hopes that people will stop complaining and just pay their bill.

OK, thanks hall. I just wanted to make sure those were not on some sort of special HD Standard package, because I'm only getting two of those. I guess I'll give TW a call *looks wearily at the phone*

I think they make it such a pain to call in in hopes that people will stop complaining and just pay their bill.

I think you're right. The guy kept putting me on hold during the cancellation process, maybe hoping I would give up and hang up the phone.

Well, I was upgraded to digital cable today, in hopes that it would allow me to pick up more HD channels with my pcHDTV card. I can watch all the HD channels (except for the premium pack channels) on my TV (which unfortunately is an old standard def.), but am still only picking up CBS and three PBS stations with my card.

I told it to scan everything (including encrypted), and the card came back with a bunch of channels, including 114_1 and 114_2 which used to be TNTHD and Discovery HD Theatre. As I expected though, the channels just showed up as black. So the channels are still there (meaning it isn't a problem with my tuner card), they are all (including the locals!) just being encrypted now.

Thanks TW!

Unless you have a cableCARD or TWC supplied STB, you're not likely to get any additional programming just by subscribing to digital cable (assuming you subscribed to basic cable not just lifeline).

I told it to scan everything (including encrypted), and the card came back with a bunch of channels, including 114_1 and 114_2 which used to be TNTHD and Discovery HD Theatre.


They are encrypting those two now.


they are all (including the locals!) just being encrypted now.


While it is possible, it's very unlikely the local digital broadcast signals they carry are being encrypted. See 1450KHZ post's regarding the "in the clear" QAM signals he is receiving(last time he checked) and the info from the tw newsletter posted by jdchap.

My TW channel lineup says the same thing as the TW newsletter that was posted before. 1450hz doesn't mention when he last had TW, just that he got those channels when he did. Others here have mentioned not getting anything but CBS and PBS. I know with my same setup I was able to find all the locals before. Now when I scan all the channels I just come up with CBS and PBS.

Others here have mentioned not getting anything but CBS and PBS. I know with my same setup I was able to find all the locals before. Now when I scan all the channels I just come up with CBS and PBS.

That does not necessarily mean the reason why you(and others) aren't getting WKEF-DT(ABC HD), or WRGT-DT (Fox HD/My TV SD) is because they've began "encrypting" them.

There are *many* other possibilities ..... I've went through some of them to some degree in recent posts, and described one possible way to diagnose whether or not they're now being encrypted .... so I won't repeat that ......

Sorry, i can't find your post about whether or not channels are being encrypted. I'd really like to figure out what is going on and if it can be fixed. From what I gather reading the last few pages of the thread, TW changed the way they send information about the channels I am no longer getting?

That is not good, as I would imagine they will soon change they way they send the information about the remaining 3 channels I can get, then I'm completely in the HD dark. Do you know why they would have changed things and if there is a different way I can find and lock on to these channels?

Sorry, i can't find your post about whether or not channels are being encrypted. I'd really like to figure out what is going on and if it can be fixed.


It's Here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12089048#post12089048

My TW channel lineup says the same thing as the TW newsletter that was posted before. 1450hz doesn't mention when he last had TW, just that he got those channels when he did. Others here have mentioned not getting anything but CBS and PBS. I know with my same setup I was able to find all the locals before. Now when I scan all the channels I just come up with CBS and PBS.

Yesterday I used the tuner built in to my LG 42LC2D television (hooked up directly to cable, bypassing the SA 8300HD cable box) and I got the following channels consistently when doing what LG calls an "EZ Scan" (my TV's manual says I have NTSC-M, ATSC, 64 & 256 QAM, but I'm only listing the digital cable channels that it found):

7-1 WHIO-HD (CBS) (also noticed this was on "channel 91" when looking at signal level - so is 7-2 I would imagine)
7-2 WHIO-SD (Weather Now)
14-2 14DT
14-3 14Prime
14-4 14Learn
14-5 14World
14-6 14HD
16-2 16DT
16-3 16Again
16-4 16Creat
16-5 16 Ohio
16-6 16HD
48-1 CET-HD
48-2 CET World
92-315 On Demand Ads
93-3 WRGT-HD (Fox)
93-4 WKEF-HD (ABC)
93-18 myTV
101-1 NHL Network
101-6 TW Help (how to use remote, DVR, etc)
101-11 On Demand PPV Trailers

Based on the TW newsletter info I think I should also be getting ESPN-HD, TNT-HD, and Discovery HD Theater but I am not (I'm a Digipic 4000 subscriber with Road Runner but no Digital Phone).

Hope this helps if you can directly tune these stations in with your tuner!

That is almost the same as I am picking up except I'm not seeing the 93 channels (ABC and FOX).

Sorry NightWatchman, I didn't realize your post I was looking for was just a few above mine! I'm on linux, so I can't use the TSreader program, but I'm currently looking for a linux alternative to try and get the information.

Based on the TW newsletter info I think I should also be getting ESPN-HD, TNT-HD, and Discovery HD Theater but I am not (I'm a Digipic 4000 subscriber with Road Runner but no Digital Phone).

Hope this helps if you can directly tune these stations in with your tuner!

Me too! Whats the deal? Are they lying, just working out the kinks or something in between?

That is almost the same as I am picking up except I'm not seeing the 93 channels (ABC and FOX).


From jdchaps list, it looks like the PSIP virtual channel remapping is working for all the digital broadcast signals carried on cable he is receiving *except* for WKEF-DT(ABC) and WRGT-DT (FOX), whiich would show up on 22.x(WKEF-DT) and 45.x (WRGT-DT) rather than "93.x" *if* the PSIP Virtual channel remapping were working ...

Just a guess at this point, but I'd guess something to do with that (PSIP or MPEG 2 PSI info regarding how it is being "formatted" and sent for WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT by TW *and/or* how the chipset/firmware/software in your "QAM tuner" handles these sorts of issues) might have something to do with why you aren't "seeing them" currently, rather than them being "encrypted" .....

If so there may be something *wrong* with the PSIP or MPEG2 PSI(program specific information), or the PID's as it is being sent via TW for WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT(note that from what I can tell with TSreader, what WKEF/WRGT is sending OTA in these regards is working just fine), Or it may involve how your chipsets/receivers firmware handle various PSIP or MPEG2 PSI "issues" , or perhaps most likely some combination of those two issues may be involved ....

If we could get someone to post TSreader HTML output files from QAM captures of the digital broadcast signals carried on TW Cable in Dayton area, we *may* be able to spot some "specific" things that may be going on+causing your(and some others) Receiver's to not be able to decode WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT streams ....

Sorry if this was mentioned with this much detail in the past (I didn't see any at least for the last year by searching for WDTN):

A couple of months ago I sent an e-mail to WDTN about Time Warner not carrying WDTN. Below is what I hope you will all find interesting:

==========================

Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:59 PM
To: Mark Allan
Subject: High Definition on Time Warner


Why do I not get NBC in High Definition in Dayton, but I DO get CBS, ABC, and Fox?

==========================

Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 12:47 AM
Subject: RE: High Definition on Time Warner

We have been broadcasting a gorgeous HD signal for four years! To learn how to receive it, please contact our chief engineer Jim Atkinson at jatkinson@wdtn.com or 293-2101. Mark A.

==========================

Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 10:17 PM
To: Mark Allan
Cc: Jim Atkinson
Subject: RE: High Definition on Time Warner


Mark,

Thanks for your quick reply! I'm sorry, I meant to say why do we not get NBC in HD on Time Warner cable? You're right, I am able to see your HD picture using just an indoor antenna in my finished basement.

There are only two problems with that solution:
a. I have to switch "modes" on my TVs whenever I go between all other channels and your channel (changing from HDMI input to the built in tuner and either switching remotes or changing modes on the universal remote). What a pain.
b. I am using two DVRs from Time Warner and I am unable to enjoy their many extra features while watching your HD channel, such as pausing live TV when the phone rings, recording my favorite NBC shows in HD when I have to be out of the house, and using the on screen program guide.

So again, why do I not get NBC in HD on my cable system, but I do get the other major networks in HD?

I'll have to admit that since I've moved into the area in March of 2006, due to the problems mentioned above, I have many times decided to watch shows on the other networks when I'm not really sure what to watch. In other words, the lack of NBC in HD on cable has "tipped the balance" in favor of the other networks during those times when I'm not ABSOLUTELY certain that I want to watch your channel.

Thanks again for your time in helping me to understand this situation.

==========================

Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2007 4:35 PM
Subject: RE: High Definition on Time Warner


Edited by jdchap here (pending original e-mail posting approval) -- "Bascially they then gave me a few reasons mentioning that they are asking TW for compensation and there hasn't been an agreement yet."

Jdchap,

Did the WDTN folks give you permission to post their comments and some of their contact info on this forum ?

Appreciate that you posted it so don't take this the wrong way, but in my experience Generally, that sort of thing is usually frowned upon unless you ask them+they say it's OK ....

Sorry if this was mentioned with this much detail in the past (I didn't see any at least for the last year by searching for WDTN):


Strange, I just searched this thread for "WDTN" and among others, this post which described exactly what's going on (WDTN/LIN wants $$$) from a couple of months ago popped up :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11599671#post11599671

Strange, I just searched this thread for "WDTN" and among others, this post which described exactly what's going on (WDTN/LIN wants $$$) from a couple of months ago popped up :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11599671#post11599671 My post was clearly speculation. I don't know the reason but was guessing. It's very interesting to see "Mark" (the news anchor ??) specifically state that though.

My post was clearly speculation.

NO it wasn't, I've included it below.

In any case, it's something we've known here for quite some time ...


Safe to say, $$$. They want more than the providers are willing to pay. WDTN is owned by LIN and this is pretty normal for many LIN stations all over the country. It's certainly not someone locally at WDTN that's holding things up.

Just a guess at this point, but I'd guess something to do with that (PSIP or MPEG 2 PSI info regarding how it is being "formatted" and sent for WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT by TW *and/or* how the chipset/firmware/software in your "QAM tuner" handles these sorts of issues) might have something to do with why you aren't "seeing them" currently, rather than them being "encrypted"

That makes sense. Unfortunately I can't get this ts stuff figured out under linux. I know I'm close (I found a program called dvbsnoop that apparently can be used to analyze .ts files), but I don't think I understand all this enough to know what I'm doing.

I hope the stations coming up incorrectly/not at all for some of us is just a temporary problem that TW will fix eventually, maybe they'll even bring Discovery Theatre, TNT, and ESPN back to the unencrypted realm as their newsletters and channel line-ups indicate. I can always hope. Until then I guess the only things I'll be recording on my computer in HD are PBS documentaries.

Jdchap,

Did the WDTN folks give you permission to post their comments and some of their contact info on this forum ?

Appreciate that you posted it so don't take this the wrong way, but in my experience Generally, that sort of thing is usually frowned upon unless you ask them+they say it's OK ....


Strange, I just searched this thread for "WDTN" and among others, this post which described exactly what's going on (WDTN/LIN wants $$$) from a couple of months ago popped up :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11599671#post11599671

No, they didn't with regard to their comments, but before I posted I noted that the contact info for the engineer and the phone number were on this site: http://www.wdtn.com/Global/category.asp?C=100029

I knew that the money issue had been mentioned somewhat recently, it is just that I thought their comments about why they feel they can demand money for retransmission consent (while the others don't) was interesting, and nothing like that seemed to have been mentioned.

Sorry about posting the comments. Should I remove/edit the post?

That makes sense. Unfortunately I can't get this ts stuff figured out under linux. I know I'm close (I found a program called dvbsnoop that apparently can be used to analyze .ts files), but I don't think I understand all this enough to know what I'm doing.


I'm not sure what all DVBsnoop reports on, but There was a fellow in cincinnati thread using linux+dvbsnoop, I can't recall his avsforum handle, but if you search Cincinnati thread for "dvb" or "snoop" or dvbsnoop/etc perhaps you might be able to find his posts and/or PM him for some info ...


I hope the stations coming up incorrectly/not at all for some of us is just a temporary problem that TW will fix eventually,


Hopefully, but they (probably engineering folks at TW) may need to hear reports from folks having problems with this and the specific user supplied hardware involved, as they may not know about it if it's not "showing up" as a problem on their test equipment ...

Unfortunetly, there are no receiver standards regarding this sort of thing for reciever/chipset manufactuers to follow as a "guide", and their designers sometimes make (different for different receiver models/chipsets) assumptions about how their product should "handle" certian issues which may in some cases *contridict* what TW is sending/doing (even though TW may not be doing anything "wrong", and oddly enough, the manufactuer/designer might not be doing anything necessarily that could be called "wrong" either ... ) ....

As you might imagine, these sorts of issues can sometimes be quite difficult, if not impossible to get "worked out" ... Just ask Cincinnati AVSforum member Plughplover about his LG chipset based receiver and an issue involving TW Cincinnati's Channel 84 WLWT/WCVN Mux .....

Hope some of that helps, good luck ....

but before I posted I noted that the contact info for the engineer and the phone number were on this site: http://www.wdtn.com/Global/category.asp?C=100029


Oh, that part of it is probably not a problem, then, forgot those were on their website ... Then again, Do recall one engineer (involving his email address being posted in another thread) "requiring" the poster remove it once ....


it is just that I thought their comments about why they feel they can demand money for retransmission consent


Oh, definitely, although to be honest, I'm not sure if it was entirely accurate involving some of what was said about the "other stations" and their cable carriage argreements ...


Sorry about posting the comments.
[/quote]

No need to apologize, I certianly "enjoyed" reading it and am glad you did post it, assuming it's "OK" with the WDTN/LIN folks ....


Should I remove/edit the post


It's up to you --- If it were me, I'd ask Mark Allan if it's OK to post the info from him here, and if he says no, then you should remove it, if he says yes, then no problem ....

The problem is, if they find out about it+read it here(I know their CE, Jim Atkinson used to read this forum occasionally, I know some folks at other stations monitor it as well, one of the LIN engineers in Indy also participates on AVSforum, mostly in Indy thread) and they aren't "OK" with your posting it, they very well might not be so accomodating about your questions the next time you send them something ...

NO it wasn't, I've included it below. You can copy-n-paste it here if you feel like it, but I'll repeat it again, my post was clearly speculation. It may have turned out to be true or it may have been true at the time, but I am not involved in the talks between WDTN/LIN and TWC, so I don't know anything factual regarding this.

, my post was clearly speculation.


No, it wasn't. While you have clarified you were speculating, and from *your* point of view you were speculating, There was nothing in your post that indicated to the reader you were "spectulating", so there is nothing that is "clear" about it being speculative.

You would have needed to add a comment such as "just speculating" or "just guessing" in order for it to have been "clearly speculative" ....

We aren't mind readers ....

No, it wasn't. While you have clarified you were speculating, and from *your* point of view you were speculating, There was nothing in your post that indicated to the reader you were "spectulating", so there is nothing that is "clear" about it being speculative.

You would have needed to add a comment such as "just speculating" or "just guessing" in order for it to have been "clearly speculative" ....

We aren't mind readers ....


I hate to get into this argument, because it's pointless to be arguing about this, but I'm gonna stick up for hall.

By saying "Safe to say", I completely read that as it's him speculating. Anyways it's semantics...

Anyone care to speculate on whether WHIO or WKRC will pick up the Browns-Steelers game on Sunday? CBS is carrying it. WKRC is listed as "Paid Programming" at 1:00. WHIO is "To Be Announced". I wonder if either of them realize there are nearly as many Browns and Steelers fans in this area as Bengals fans.

The question is what .... Assuming the signals are still being carried on TW cable at all...

I went to an office and asked a guy about this and it took a couple of days but he informed me that their engineering department states that all of their digital broadcast signals are in the clear, so we should be able to pick them up.

He also said they carry the following:
WHIO (CBS)
WHIO (Digital Weather)
WPTO (PBS)
WPTD (PBS)
WKEF (ABC)
WRGT (FOX)
WRGT (My Network TV)

They do not have an agreement to carry WDTN or WBDT at this time...

The rep was not given any specific locator number. The rep informed me as well that we must set the TV into the search mode to pick up these digital channels that are in the clear (which we knew).

Don't know if that will assist any but thought you would like to know.

Anyone care to speculate on whether WHIO or WKRC will pick up the Browns-Steelers game on Sunday?.

Looking at other regional CBS stations, It looks like there will only be one game on CBS this Sunday. It would make sense to have it locally but you never know anymore.

WBNS in Columbus has the 1:00PM Browns game but "TBA" from 4:00PM - 7:00PM... I could be wrong though :)

By saying "Safe to say", I completely read that as it's him speculating. .

It's easy to interpet that as "safe to say" because it's something we've known about (common knoweldge) for quite some time ....

Take this article for example :

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/2006/11/16/ddn111706inside.html


because it's pointless to be arguing about this


Certianly is pointless. I said it wasn't "clearly speculation", as it wasn't the way I read it(and I suspect I'm not the only one), and instead of realizing his comments could easily be "interpeted" in ways other than he intended and responding accordingly, hall didn't like that I stated that I did not see it as "clearly speculative" ....

I had no problem with his use of the word "speculative" to clarify what he meant , only the "clearly" part ....

Don't know if that will assist any but thought you would like to know.

Thanks for posting that info ...

BTW, I don't use cable, I use OTA, so it's not of interest to me "personally", was just trying to help those who have reported issues decoding WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT via cable with their equipment recently .....

Anyone care to speculate on whether WHIO or WKRC will pick up the Browns-Steelers game on Sunday?


No need to speculate, unless there is a "change" from the current NFL distrubition for this coming week, The answer is no. WHIO/WKRC will air the 4pm Bengals game, Fox has the doubleheader this week.

How do I know this? From the info here :

NFL Week 10 Television coverage maps (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=934984 )

Also, I'm a little fuzzy on the "rules", as it's been a while since I've looked this up, but if I recall correctly(and I may not be), I believe because of the proximity of Dayton to Cincinnati, per NFL rules the dayton market station has to carry Bengals game ... Which in this case wouldn't "allow" them to air both the browns and bengals game since Fox has the doubleheader this weekend, Not CBS .... (update: Unless that's just for a home game/sellout, again I'm fuzzy on that rule) ....

What sucks here is that I need a little "tropo" to receive WBNS-DT -- I can receive the analog on 10, but since WCPO-DT came on air in 1998, the co-channel DT "snow" from WCPO-DT off the back/side of antenna usually covers it up too much or makes it way too ugly to watch .....

Thanks, Jeff.

I saw that NFL distribution map this afternoon and that's what I figured. It wasn't posted yet this morning when I looked. I wasn't sure about NFL rules and didn't realize that only one network was "allowed" to carry a doubleheader. It looks like it's back to the bar as I need tropo myself to receive WBNS-DT. If anyone knows of any decent bars that have HDTV's and actually know how to tune an HD signal on one, please PM me, though I suppose it won't be available in HD on NFL Sunday ticket. Most of the places I've been leave a LOT to be desired, TV-wise.

I certianly wish WHIO would/could carry the Browns-Steelers game ....

After all, Who in Dayton can't receive WKRC OTA if they want to watch the Bengals game also, and heck, many of the folks outside of WKRC coverage area In Dayton DMA to the North Of Dayton are Browns fans anyway .... ;)

I certianly wish WHIO would/could carry the Browns-Steelers game ....

After all, Who in Dayton can't receive WKRC OTA if they want to watch the Bengals game also, and heck, many of the folks outside of WKRC coverage area In Dayton DMA to the North Of Dayton are Browns fans anyway .... ;)

It's not up to WHIO, the NFL has chosen the Dayton DMA to be the Bengals secondary market, therefore, all Bengals away games are required to be shown on WHIO.

Home games, on the otherhand, WHIO/WRGT are not required to show, but they always will (assuming a sell out) because there is no other team nearby.

Also, Browns/Steelers fans may think they are in the majority around here, but if a Bengals home, sold out, game wasn't shown in the Dayton DMA, I would be willing to bet the stations phones would light up quite a bit more.

Thanks, Jeff.
If anyone knows of any decent bars that have HDTV's and actually know how to tune an HD signal on one, please PM me, though I suppose it won't be available in HD on NFL Sunday ticket. Most of the places I've been leave a LOT to be desired, TV-wise.

What? You mean if you ask a bar that has a plasma or lcd hanging up they don't tell you that they *are* showing the game in HD? :)

Sorry, EVERY bar (especially a "sports" bar) with flat-panels TVs is showing HD. Ask 'em, they'll tell you so ! ;)

...Browns/Steelers fans may think they are in the majority around here, but if a Bengals home, sold out, game wasn't shown in the Dayton DMA, I would be willing to bet the stations phones would light up quite a bit more.

Uh, yeah, until they lose a game or two. Then everybody jumps ship for the rest of the season!

What? You mean if you ask a bar that has a plasma or lcd hanging up they don't tell you that they *are* showing the game in HD?

I can somewhat tolerate those places. It's the ones with the old, nasty CRT rear projection TV's that have never been cleaned or serviced that are the worst.

It's not up to WHIO, the NFL has chosen the Dayton DMA to be the Bengals secondary market


Yes, I know that. See my first response to Paul210 regarding this issue ...

Update: I realize in that post I wasn't all that clear about NFL rules, because, I don't know if there are any exceptions or variations or "special agreements" involved with NFL TV rules for Dayton Market, given it's proximity to Cincinnati. Involving Dayton's "secondary market" status, and regarding such things as the NFL's 75 mile radius of stadium "local TV" rules(not the same as the "secondary market" thing). It's been a while, but We do know the 75 mile rule applies to blackouts(non bengals home game sellouts).



Also, Browns/Steelers fans may think they are in the majority around here, but if a Bengals home, sold out, game wasn't shown in the Dayton DMA, I would be willing to bet the stations phones would light up quite a bit more.

WKRC's coverage area completely covers the entire Dayton Metro area, but not areas North of I-70.

Update:

Also, When Bengals are on MNF, since last year WKRC-DT (the "current" broadcaster in Cincinnati with the ESPN "contract") provides the HD feed from ESPN, another good reason for Dayton folks to watch them ...

There's also the Bengals NFL Network game on WLWT this year .....

Uh, yeah, until they lose a game or two. Then everybody jumps ship for the rest of the season!


Not me :-) ... I'm primarily a Bengals fan, and allways have been, no matter how "bad" it gets at times ..

Problem is, I'm a Browns and Steelers fan as well ......

Problem is, I'm a Browns and Steelers fan as well ......

Didn't know that was possible being a Bengals fan :)

I was a Bengals Only "One team" fan until the mid 90's or so .... Nowadays I mainly just want to see good football and also see the Ravens get beat ;)

When Bengals play Steelers or Browns, of course I want Bengals to win ...

Anyway, All I was saying is I'm not convinced a secondary market status is best when the primary market affilate signal is available to the majority of the population in the secondary market. Especially when there are other teams of regional interest in the Secondary market.

For instance, I expect WHIO/NFL would even pick up a substantial number of viewers in Cincinnati DMA for the Steelers/browns game which they won't get for the Bengals game, AS WHIO Signal coverage area reaches into N KY, and Many cable systems in Cincinnati DMA carry WHIO (not the digital signal yet however), Such as cable systems in Middletown, Lebanon (and unless something has changed Hamilton/fairfield) ..... And the Bengals game would still be available from WKRC (either via OTA or Cable) to most in Dayton DMA, excepting those beyond WKRC coverage area, which would be less-populated areas in Dayton DMA North of I-70, where there are probably more Browns fans than Bengals fans anyway ...

It looks like Time Warner Cable customers in the Springfield area get the best of both worlds--Dayton and Columbus stations. Of course, OTA for both markets would probably be a piece of cake there, too.

My parents in Lima, on TWC, get Dayton, Columbus, and Toledo stations (or used to).

See this is what confuses me. We 'get' WHIO and WBNS on TWC, but WBNS is a 'blue screen' 99% of the time (when the same programming is on). Why can some markets get multiple channels of the same networks, yet I can only get one and any others are 'blacked out'?

The same thing happens in Dayton with the Dayton FOX station and Cincinnati's FOX station. Residents in the Dayton can get both on Time Warner, but after 8pm, as I understand it, Cincy's FOX station does not show normal primetime programming. They show re-runs like Seinfeld, etc.

It looks like Time Warner Cable customers in the Springfield area get the best of both worlds--Dayton and Columbus stations. Of course, OTA for both markets would probably be a piece of cake there, too.

Eh - I have the Antennas Direct 42XG in my attic. It's borderline on the Dayton Stations (Fox is excellent, the others are between 65-80 signal strength).

I've never turned the antenna around to point at Columbus....now that you make me think about...

sounds like a saturday project :)

but after 8pm, as I understand it, Cincy's FOX station does not show normal primetime programming. They show re-runs like Seinfeld, etc.

That would atleast be a step up from the 'blue screen disclaimer' which occupies WBNS 99% of the time here. :( I can only hope that if WBNS does show the Steelers game, TWC will unblock the channel since the programming will be different than WHIO.

GO STEELERS! :D

The same thing happens in Dayton with the Dayton FOX station and Cincinnati's FOX station. Residents in the Dayton can get both on Time Warner, but after 8pm, as I understand it, Cincy's FOX station does not show normal primetime programming. They show re-runs like Seinfeld, etc.

WXIX, Fox Cincinnati Runs the same Fox (including HD on the digital station) programming as WRGT in primetime, unless they are airing a UC Game.

The reason cable viewers (including Vader) get "blackouts"(or alternate programming, I have no idea in TW Dayton's case concerning WXIX whether it's actually coming from WXIX or if its some other source which is providing the shows you see there via TW during fox programming) on the cable system channel the out of market affiliate is located on when the same network programming is running on in market affiliate is because the in market affiliate "owns" the sole distrubiton rights to the programming within the market.

OTA signals received OTA don't abide by these "market boundaries" or restrictions on redistrubtrion of the signal by other parties in out-of-market areas however ...

Eh - I have the Antennas Direct 42XG in my attic.


In addition to aiming it in the correct direction, it's Usually best to get the antenna outdoors, at least several feet above the top of your roof ... Especially so for more distant signals ...

I didn't phrase that properly or completely (or I'm completely wrong). What I meant was "on Time Warner systems in the Dayton region, the Cincy FOX station broadcasts syndicated stuff, not the same primetime programs that they show in the Cincy market". I understand it has to do with who "owns" the market. Now, who overrides the broadcast, I don't know...

I didn't phrase that properly or completely (or I'm completely wrong).

I realized what you meant just after I posted it and reworded my post, see my edit update (sorry) .... You're not wrong, except IMO your useage of "broadcast" and reffering to the alternate programming on WXIX's Dayton cable channel as something that is being "broadcast" by WXIX ...


What I meant was "on Time Warner systems in the Dayton region, the Cincy FOX station broadcasts syndicated stuff, not the same primetime programs that they show in the Cincy market".

What it was that first confused me in your post is that the way I think of it, the Cincinnati station(WXIX) doesn't "broadcast" that (As I generally think of "broadcast" as meaning what they broadcast OTA, that is what "broadcasting" is ) ... They may send that alternate programming to TW for distrubition in Dayton market via a seperate feed (such as via fiber/etc) to TW, or it may come from another source ...

------------------

Anyway -- in the case when in market/out of market affiliates of the same network are carried on a cable system runs "different" games, I'm not sure what might happen via cable regarding the "different game" from the out-of-market station carried on the cable system(especially if it's a different time period such as the 1pm Browns game vs. 4pm Bengals game). As although it's different programming/different game, it's still the same network providing the programming vs. local programming such as WXIX production of a UC game ... Perhaps it may vary depending upon the network/affiliate agreements regarding network non-duplication issues and/or any agreements/etc. involved between the stations involved ...

In any case, Luckily, these things aren't a "problem" with OTA ;)

Anyway, All I was saying is I'm not convinced a secondary market status is best when the primary market affilate signal is available to the majority of the population in the secondary market. Especially when there are other teams of regional interest in the Secondary market.

For instance, I expect WHIO/NFL would even pick up a substantial number of viewers in Cincinnati DMA for the Steelers/browns game which they won't get for the Bengals game, AS WHIO Signal coverage area reaches into N KY, and Many cable systems in Cincinnati DMA carry WHIO (not the digital signal yet however), Such as cable systems in Middletown, Lebanon (and unless something has changed Hamilton/fairfield) ..... And the Bengals game would still be available from WKRC (either via OTA or Cable) to most in Dayton DMA, excepting those beyond WKRC coverage area, which would be less-populated areas in Dayton DMA North of I-70, where there are probably more Browns fans than Bengals fans anyway ...OTA, this makes perfect sense and I would agree. However there are many people with cable or satellite who get only one DMA's affilliates. I don't know anyone around here (Cincinnati) that gets any Dayton stations with a dish or Time Warner. Those in-between areas such as Hamilton and Middletown are an exception. If you told a Bengals fan with Dayton cable or satellite that WHIO was going to air Browns/Steelers over the Bengals game 'because you can get the Bengals on WKRC' he would probably not be very happy if his provider doesn't have WKRC.

With that said, even if everyone were getting their TV OTA (like they should be ;) ) and got both WKRC and WHIO, my guess would be that WHIO would get more viewers by showing the Bengals game than by showing a different one. I realize there are a fair number of Browns fans in the Dayton area (I lived there for four years) and there are annoying Steelers fans everywhere including here in Cincinnati, but I wouldn't dispute the NFL tagging Dayton a Bengals secondary market.

That said, I'm not going to complain if I get an extra NFL game from WHIO on Sunday!

In any case, Luckily, these things aren't a "problem" with OTA Yes. I've been OTA-only for over a year now and once a week or so I get mail from Time Warner or DirecTV. I take a look at the current price/deal they're offering and just laugh and toss it in the trash. With the HD DVR I have over 100 hours of HD content recorded, and there are so many good things to choose from each night I could never watch it all.

Sorry to barge in here fellas. I'm a HUGE browns fan. I live in Wilmington OH and I get cincy TW cable. So, no CLE-PIT game for me. :( My question for the more experienced (more than me anyway, which probably isn't saying much) OTA folks here.

If I purchased this antenna (http://www.drillspot.com/products/280971/Andrew_Corporation_Channel_3020_Deep_Fringe_TV_Antenna), would I be able to pick up the Columbus station? Would I also need a preamplifier (http://www.drillspot.com/products/276764/ANDREW-CORPORATION-CHANNEL_3039_Antenna-Preamplifier)?

Wilmington is roughly 60 miles from Columbus. I know what the claimed "range" is listed in the specs, but are those real world numbers or manufacture's exaggerations. How much does the preamp add to those values?

Thanks a lot!
Jeff

jimp2244,

Given the way "things are", I'm not saying there aren't good reasons for Dayton to be Bengals secondary market, just saying I'm not convinced it's best. I just think it would be better in Dayton's case for the Network or affiliate to make the choice of which game to carry, especially in situations such as is occuring on CBS this coming Sunday.

OTA, this makes perfect sense and I would agree.


It makes sense for cable/sat as well IMO, except as we know, DBS LiL doesn't actually carry any "out of market"(including the signficantly viewed ones) stations in this area.

But, The out of market signals are "available" for carriage by Cable/sat whether they carry them or not(or whether or not the station "allows" it), and in many cases they are carried on cable, and are even on current "signficantly viewed" lists, especially in areas in Dayton, or areas in between Dayton and Cincinnati. Would imagine There is certianly less reason for cable/sat to want to carry the out-of-market affiliate if they're just allways airing the same network programming as the "in market" affiliate, however.

Why do you think stations such as WXIX are available even on "north dayton" Cable systems such as in Fairborn? My guess is Probably because because of Stuff like UC games WXIX has .... Have no idea if they're being carried via must carry or retransmission consent ....

What are the "signifcantly viewed" out-of market stations in the area ? The significanlty viewed stations list is here :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/significantviewedstations.pdf

For convienience, Here are the out of market stations on the list for several counties in Cincinnati or Dayton DMA (note stations with a "+" sign were stations added to the list after FCC's orginal 1972 list) :

Within Cincinnati DMA :

Butler County (Middletown, Hamiliton-fairfield/etc)
WDTN, 2, Dayton, OH (formerly WLWD)
WHIO-TV, 7, Dayton, OH
+WKEF, 22, Dayton, OH
+WRGT-TV, 45, Dayton, OH

Hamilton County (cincinnati metro area)
+WRGT-TV, 45, Dayton, OH

Warren County (Lebanon/etc)
WDTN, 2, Dayton, OH (formerly WLWD)
WHIO-TV, 7, Dayton, OH
WKEF, 22, Dayton, OH
+WRGT-TV, 45, Dayton, OH

Within Dayton DMA :

Greene County (Note Generally NE of Dayton: includes towns such as Fairborn, Xenia/etc)
WCPO-TV, 9, Cincinnati, OH
WKRC-TV, 12, Cincinnati, OH

Montgomery county (Includes Dayton+most of Dayton Metro area ) :

WCPO-TV, 9, Cincinnati, OH
WKRC-TV, 12, Cincinnati, OH
+WSTR-TV, 64, Cincinnati, OH


I don't know anyone around here (Cincinnati) that gets any Dayton stations with a dish or Time Warner.


Signficant portion of population in Cincinnati DMA receive Dayton stations via cable. Unless something has changed, I don't know of any cable system in Warren or Butler county that doesn't .... Unlike is the case in Dayton for the Cincinnati signals, much less reason for them to be there in Hamilton county ....

I don't know how "accurate" it is, but The "Channels" guide I get in my local paper(cox publishes this version of it as well as Middletown Journal as well as the Hamilton paper) has a list of what cable channels the stations are on in which communities in this area -- some are in Dayton DMA, most listed are in Cincinnati DMA). Here is what *it* says regarding the out-of market stations carried on various local cable systems it shows the channel lineup for :

In Cincinnati DMA :

TW Hamilton-Fairfield carries the following Dayton stations :

WHIO, WPTD, WKEF, WRGT

TW Middletown carries the following Dayton stations :

WDTN, WHIO, WPTD, WKEF, WRGT, WBDT, WKOI, WRCX (LP)

TW Cincinnati carries the following Dayton stations :

WHIO, WPTD, WRGT

TW (Ross) :

WHIO, WPTD, WRGT

City of Lebanon :

WHIO, WPTD, WKEF, WRGT

TW (Amelia) :

WHIO, WPTD, WRGT

TW (oxford) :

WHIO, WPTD, WKEF, WKOI

--------------------

In Dayton DMA (these are only two listed, it doesn' show channel lineup for TW Dayton or fairborn/etc) :

TW Germantown :

WLWT, WXIX, WCET, WPTO

TW South Dayton :

WKRC, WXIX, WCET, WPTO


With that said, even if everyone were getting their TV OTA (like they should be ;) ) and got both WKRC and WHIO, my guess would be that WHIO would get more viewers by showing the Bengals game than by showing a different one.


Difficult to say in that case because I expect many in the Dayton and Cincinnati markets would be watching BOTH the bengals/browns game(from WHIO) and the Bengals/ravens game (from WKRC). I would guess both WKRC and WHIO would get "more viewers" in that case. Just as would be the case via cable in those areas where the out-of-market affiliate is carried(at least if it isn't "blacked out"), which in cincinnati DMA is(or was) pretty much just about anywhere in Butler, Warren Counties, and in Dayton is just about everywhere based on previous reports in this thread/unless something has changed AFAIK except perhaps in city of Dayton itself regarding WKRC (WXIX+WCPO used to be carried even in city of Dayton, don't know about now) ...

Sorry to barge in here fellas.


Not at all/no need to apologize ....


If I purchased this antenna (http://www.drillspot.com/products/280971/Andrew_Corporation_Channel_3020_Deep_Fringe_TV_Antenna), would I be able to pick up the Columbus station?


Looks a lot like CM3020 :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC3020

Punch in your address at following website and post the results here, and we'd probably be able to get a little better idea concerning how well that might work/whether that will be "enough" antenna for your situation+what stations you should have a good shot of receiving :

http:// www.tvfool.com


But, I'd say that would probably give you some sort of shot at it, provided you install it outdoors+above your "roof", and it probably isn't a bad choice for an inexpensive "one size fits all VHf/UHF combo that isn't too large" solution ...

It Just doesn't offer the performance of some larger VHF/UHF combos or seperate VHF/UHF antennas, however ...Whether you'd need "more" performance than that is hard to say(even the tvfool plot won't tell us that for sure but will give us a bit of an idea perhaps), you'll probably just have to try it and see, and what you want to do is really up to you ... for example, Make sense to pay $60 bucks for an antenna and try it and see if it works well enough first(as it may be all you need), rather than paying 2x as much or more right "off the bat" for better performance that you *might* not need(but you might as well) vs. paying more to get more "insurance" of the best reception possible ....

There are certianly "better" antennas available for fringe areas such as you are in .... Personally, from Wilmington, If you want VHF/UHF combo, I'd probably think about going with the "best of the best" such as a CM3671 :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC3671

You could get even better performance from seperate VHF/UHF antennas, such as Antennas's direct XG91 or CM4228 for UHF, and a Winegard YA-1713 for VHF-HI if you don't need analog 2-6 reception, or winegard PR5030 for VHF which would be a performance "compromise" if you do want ch 2-13 reception, but is less of a wind-loading and "size" issue than the highest performance broadband (ch 2-13) VHF antennas, a Delhi-Jerrold VIP-307SR(17 feet long, largest broadband VHF TV antenna I'm aware of currently on market) if you want best "broadband" VHF antenna performance(ch 2-13) ...

One problem for Wilmington is until analog shut off several Cincinnati/Columbus stations operate on the same channel, and co-channel interference may be an issue in some cases until analog shut off, and using a antenna with good F/B rejection would probably be good idea in Wilmington cases(although it might not "completely" solve the issue in this case) -- The biggest ones being WBNS 10 analog columbus, WCPO-DT (DT=digital/HD) Cincinnati, WPTO-DT 28 Cincinnati/WTTE 28 analog Columbus and WCET-DT 34 Cincinnati/WOSU analog columbus .... WPTO 14 oxford/WCMH-DT 14 columbus, W36DG cincinnati/WTTE-DT 36 Columbus, WBQC-CA 38 Cincinnati/WOSU-DT 38 columbus should be less of an issue as they are low power or operate from lower transmitting antenna height in case of WPTO ...

In any case, BTW, add a rotor and you really should be in a good spot to receive Dayton, cincinnati+ Columbus .....



Would I also need a preamplifier (http://www.drillspot.com/products/276764/ANDREW-CORPORATION-CHANNEL_3039_Antenna-Preamplifier)?

Preamp will probably be necessary for best results, and very good idea from Wilmington in any case ... I'd probably go with a CM7777 or CM7778 instead of that one, though .... Note: in addition to their performance, another good thing about CM7777 or CM7778 is that you can use it either with a single VHF/UHF "input" for the antenna, or with "seperate" VHF/UHF inputs for seperate VHF/UHF antennas ....

[quote]
Wilmington is roughly 60 miles from Columbus. I know what the claimed "range" is listed in the specs, but are those real world numbers or manufacture's exaggerations.


Manufactuers claims on such issues are allways "suspect" ;)

Mileage figures are really pretty much meaningless, and generally will just show you that "bigger" antennas are "better"/provide more signal gain ... As the main factor involved is curvature of earth as related to transitting/receive antenna height ... "generally" speaking, The coverage areas for The Columbus(or Dayton or Cincinnati for that matter) stations reach out about 55~65 miles or so, but it can work out better than that when receive location is on a hill or very flat ground without say, many trees around.

Specs such as Antenna gain(in db) and directivity(polar plot) are the real "specs" of interest ...

You can find a comparison of various popular antennas "specs" here(The antenna you're looking at is probably similar in performance to :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html



How much does the preamp add to those values?


Nothing, really. Preamp can't increase the amount of signal being "received" by the antenna, but can lower recieve system noise figure(as long as the Preamp NF is lower than the receiver front end's NF - which is usually the case by at least 4~5 db or so assuming a quality preamp such as CM7777/CM7778 is used) and compensate for losses in feedline between antenna+receiver ....

----------

Hope some of that helps, let us know how it goes ....

Wow! Thank you for the very thorough response. I appreciate all the good info. I will post back later.

Edited by jdchap here (pending original e-mail posting approval) -- "Bascially they then gave me a few reasons mentioning that they are asking TW for compensation and there hasn't been an agreement yet."

Well as Nitewatchman suggested, I asked for WDTN's permission to post their reply to me regarding not allowing Time Warner to provide us with their HD feed for free like the other big networks in Dayton (ABC, CBS, and Fox). They, as can be expected, did not give me that permission (thanks for looking out for me Nitewatchman!).

I then asked them if WDTN or their parent company, LIN-TV, had a prepared statement on the web concerning this issue and they said no.

They request that if any of us have any comments/questions regarding the lack of WDTN-HD on Time Warner Cable that we contact them directly. http://www.wdtn.com/Global/category.asp?C=100029 Actually, my original e-mail was sent using "Mark's Mailbag" (third item down on the Contact Us menu).

They DID reply to me quickly each time I asked them questions or expressed my concerns. So if any of you, like me, find that this situation affects you in a negative way (no ability to do DVR of NBC-HD, can't put an antenna on an apartment roof, having to teach family members how to switch modes just to watch one channel, etc) then it appears that WDTN will read your e-mails (or hear your phone calls) and quite possibly even reply with their side of the story.

My opinion: I completely side (100%) with the cable companies on this issue. On the other hand, I side (90%) with The Big Ten Network and the NFL Network on their particular issues (insisting that the networks be carried on at least expanded basic cable).

Are we surprised that WDTN and LIN aren't willing to offer their digital signal to TWC for free unlike the other local networks ? :D I am surprised that Mark Allen was so "open" in his comments to you too. I mean, it does make sense what he said about WHIO and how they're owned by Cox, who owns one of the largest cable companies in the US. Can't recall what he said about WKEF nor WRGT though...

I suspect TWC doesn't care anymore and knows WDTN/LIN ain't budging. WDTN/LIN's tune will change after Feb '09 though when they lose the majority of their viewers.

They DID reply to me quickly each time I asked them questions or expressed my concerns. So if any of you, like me, find that this situation affects you in a negative way (no ability to do DVR of NBC-HD, can't put an antenna on an apartment roof, having to teach family members how to switch modes just to watch one channel, etc)then it appears that WDTN will read your e-mails (or hear your phone calls) and quite possibly even reply with their side of the story.



Did you also email TW and ask them why your TW Supplied DVR doesn't have a ATSC/OTA digital receiver included ? Did you tell your landlord that you "require" to be provided with OTA service via a MATV system on their roof/distrubution system to provide OTA to the residents ? ;)


My opinion: I completely side (100%) with the cable companies on this issue. On the other hand, I side (90%) with The Big Ten Network and the NFL Network on their particular issues (insisting that the networks be carried on at least expanded basic cable)


I'm curious Why you think it would it be "ok" with networks such as NFL network receiving per subscriber fees from cablecos in order to allow the cableco to redistribute their programming to their customers, but not "OK" for WDTN to require it for their HD signal(or even their SD signal for that matter) ?

Heck, you *can* even receive HD from WDTN-DT/NBC for free, OTA direct from the source, you can't do that for NFL network .... Yes, they are broadcaster+their signal is available for free OTA on the public airwaves(cable isn't the "public airwaves"), but they're also a business and because they have a signal available OTA doesn't mean it isn't "OK" for them to require $ to allow redistribution rights of their signal to any particular provider ....

Are we surprised that WDTN and LIN aren't willing to offer their digital signal to TWC for free .....


Of course not. First of all, they shouldn't be because many Cableco's have "caved" on this issue so far, including TW regarding other stations/station owners ...

LIN is just one of the several broadcast station owners which become "well known" for that, We've talked about it here for years, and again, I'll post the link for the second time in the last few days to this DDN article told us about it a year ago :

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/pro/2006/11/16/ddn111706inside.html


.... about WHIO and how they're owned by Cox, who owns one of the largest cable companies in the US. Can't recall what he said about WKEF nor WRGT though...


I dunno, I don't know why, but I do remember it took several years for WHIO+TW to reach an agreement for WHIO HD carriage(while cox does "do cable", it's called "cox cable" not "time warner"). WHIO digital/HD first came on air in Fall 2001, they were the first Dayton digital/HD station on air. At first, it was reported as a "temporary" agreement between WHIO+TW around the time Of 2004 superbowl which was only to last until March 2004, but it was apparently soon made "permananent, and believe it's been available on TW Dayton cable ever since 2004 superbowl ...

here is a bit of a record of that from posts around that time in this thread(If you go back earlier, If I recall correctly you'll find a few 'complaints' about WHIO's HD not being on TW ) :

Some Info/posts on WHIO HD TW carriage around the time it began from earlier in this thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=3400766#post3400766

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=3357420#post3357420

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=4139957#post4139957

------------

Interestgly enough, however, not applicable to our area, but LIN and Cox cable *did* reach an agreement 6 months ago for cable carriage of several LIN stations : http://buyinghdtv.blogspot.com/2007/03/cox-cable-lin-tv-sign-hdtv-carriage.html

---------------------------------

Also Like LIN, Sinclair(owns or operates WKEF+WRGT) is well known for requiring $ for cable carriage rights. Why it is that WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT were for a long time the Only local HD broadcast signals available on TW Dayton cable whearas they only recently came to an agreement with TW in columbus area for HD from their Columbus ABC+fox affiliates, is a mystery, but do keep in mind the retrans consent contracts are only 3 years ......

So, Maybe you'd like to read a little more on that :

ARticles about latest TW+Sinclair cable retransmission deal(from Early 2007, note WKEF+WRGT is on the sincliar press release "list" at the PDF file) ....


http://www.tvpredictions.com/timesinclair012207.htm

http://www.sbgi.net/news_releases/2007/release_2007122_201.pdf



I suspect TWC doesn't care anymore and knows WDTN/LIN ain't budging. WDTN/LIN's tune will change after Feb '09 though when they lose the majority of their viewers.

"Will change" -- Hmmm, Is that a "clearly speculative" comment on your part again as well just because you said "I suspect" in a different context in your first sentence? :)

Anyway, Maybe, but I wouldn't be so sure .... After feb 09, a cable carriage agreement(if any) between them wouldn't necessarily *have* to include HD ... It could just be for a SD feed, such as "similar" (or identical) to 2.2 OTA ....

I wouldn't care to speculate, but, many cableco's have "caved" on this issue(including involving Sinclair and TW) in the past couple of years ....

Did you also email TW and ask them why your TW Supplied DVR doesn't have a ATSC/OTA digital receiver included ?

Negative. Is there an HD cable box/DVR on the market that TW *could* distribute that has an ATSC/OTA tuner and still works with 2-way services like on-demand? I know about the new Tivo HD boxes I could buy, but I don't think they can work with the 2-way services (because of the cablecards I think).

Also, I don't currently live in an apartment (but used to). I only said that because I thought installing an outside antenna may be an issue for those that do. Based on what you said - I guess it isn't (although I did live in a complex once that gave us "free" basic cable instead of providing signals OTA, so those folks would still have the same issue. Besides that still wouldn't solve the DVR issue. And since I do want all the other channels and services, like my Internet, that cable has to offer, I don't really *want* to install an external antenna for just that one channel I want to see in HD that I don't already get.

Thank you, Nitewatchman, for your very informative and well researched posts/links regarding the retransmission issues. Ok, fair enough, I didn't know about some of the bigger deals that have been made (especially the TW/Sinclair deal from Jan 2007). Sorry. Now I'll say that I'm only 70% on the side of the remaining cable companies then. BTW - before digital signals were broadcast, do you know of any broadcast stations that required a fee from cable companies for retransmission rights? If there are examples from the past, maybe my opinion will shift to be on the side of the stations. Not that my opinion matters much anyway. :)

And I certainly wasn't saying that we ALL need to do a mass e-mail or phone call attack on WDTN, just that if anyone felt the same as I did, they could contact WDTN for themselves and maybe get a response that would help them better understand WDTN's position.

Well, just turned the TV off and listening to browns/steelers game on 980 AM ;)

Currently it's --- Browns 21, Steelers 9 at half --- ,

If they have it(which seems a good possibility) Maybe I'll also get to watch a replay of it on NFL Network later this week ...

-------------------------------

Is there an HD cable box/DVR on the market that TW *could* distribute that has an ATSC/OTA tuner and still works with 2-way services like on-demand?.


This one isn't a DVR, but if there isn't one, there's no reason why there can't be (technically speaking) :

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/04/26/motorola-to-demo-cable-stb-with-atsc-tuner/

Some time ago various articles regarding these retransmission agreement "spats" between cablecos and stations regarding their HD signals reported the cable folks said they were going to start implemeting those. I'm guessing It was probably mostly "hot air", however, who knows .....


before digital signals were broadcast, do you know of any broadcast stations that required a fee from cable companies for retransmission rights?


Historically, Details regarding the private agreements between cable companies and broadcasters for restransmission consent are usually kept quite private. And if I did know "privately" of any specific examples, I likely couldn't post about it here ..... Anyway, Those retrans consent deals can involve $$$, but they can involve other things as well.

Generally, it certianly seems the stations asking for/requiring $$$ for retransmission consent for cable carriage of their digital/HD signals has become a more "widespread" thing regarding digital/HD signals vs. what has been the case in the past with their analog signals. Which only makes sense as the stations analog signals are generally usually already carried on cable system.

In the future, when the analog station goes away, carriage agreements of a digital "signal" from the broadcaster usually probably will include the HD, but it does not necessarily have to include the station's HD signal. It could be they might give away a SD digital "version" of the signal for "free" to the cableco(or for "cheaper"), but require per subscriber fees for carriage of the HD ...

It is also well known, however that "generally" DBS companies(DirecTV/Dish) pay, and allways have for the retransmission rights for local broadcast signals(including the analog signals) via their LiL service ...

Here are a couple of articles that might peak your "interest" a bit regarding retransmission consent fees :

http://www.tv-partners.com/42615.html

http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0016/t.9633.html

Update/additon:


And since I do want all the other channels and services, like my Internet, that cable has to offer, I don't really *want* to install an external antenna for just that one channel I want to see in HD that I don't already get.


Maybe you should tell TW that, as I don't see how any of that would or should "persuade" WDTN to offer their HD product for free for redistrubtion on their system ....

They offer their signal OTA, they are broadcaster that's what they do. They are not obligated in any shape or form to provide their signal to cableco's "for free" for redistrubtion on their system because the cable customers "want" the signal on cable so they don't have to "put up an antenna" or because the cableco's equipment doesn't "work" to receive (or DVR) the OTA signal, or because most apartment buidlings don't offer OTA service via a MATV system .....

Fortunately TWC 'unblocked' WBNS for the Steelers/Browns game today so I was able to watch it. The downside, only in SD.

Exciting game though!

Did you also email TW and ask them why your TW Supplied DVR doesn't have a ATSC/OTA digital receiver included ? Just so happens that I did ask them this.... just shy of two years ago, in fact, on 11/21/05:

Have the cable set-top makers ever contemplated adding ATSC tuners for over-the-air reception to their boxes ?? ...but it would also avoid the hassle of "negotiating" with the local stations or their parent companies in order to carry a channel or having to give in to the monetary demands of the stations.

I believe the FCC has mandated that television manufacturers install off air (VSB8) tuners in all television by 2007. In addition, there will be stand alone off air tuners to allow older television to view off air digital services. Given this, I don't believe you'll see VSB8 tuners in any of our set tops.

Just so happens that I did ask them this.... just shy of two years ago, in fact, on 11/21/05:


There have been developments regarding this issue since then.


..... Given this, I don't believe you'll see VSB8 tuners in any of our set tops.


Like I said before, I doubt you'll see them either, at least in any "widespread way". But, they have "worked on it" and the cable folks have threatened to offer cable+ATSC OTA STB's to their subscribers in "response" to those stations who want $$ from cableco's for retransmission consent of their HD signals .... Note : I've been searching for the articles which I had read 6months~a year ago or so which had that info in them, but I can't find them currently - I Do recall they were in various broadcast+cable related publications around a year or so ago or a little less ...

Note/update: Oh, BTW, looks like he had a "typo" ... The signal modulation used for OTA ATSC digital is 8-VSB (8-level vestigal sideband) not "vsb8" ..
[end update]

However In addition to the endgadget article I've already posted, See following articles :

Cable Providers Team up For an Off air Set-top Box (http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=198100617)

Press release from Cable labs (http://www.cablelabs.com/news/pr/2007/07_pr_offair_030107.html)

Short quote from the latter follows :


"The interface specifications would enable devices to receive digital off-air television signals and would deliver these digital signals seamlessly through a cable set-top box. This technology would allow consumers to receive broadcast television signals as an integrated viewing experience. The concept combines over-the-air digital television transmission with television programming carried by the cable provider."



The point I was making is it makes about as much sense to me to "blame" TW for not providing OTA reception capability in their STB's/HD-DVR's/etc, or to "blame" your landlord for not providing OTA service via a MATV system/antenna as it does to "blame" WDTN for their HD signal not being present on TW's System because they won't give it away to TW for "free" for redistrubtion to TW's paying customers ....

So if any of you, like me, find that this situation affects you in a negative way (no ability to do DVR of NBC-HD, can't put an antenna on an apartment roof, having to teach family members how to switch modes just to watch one channel, etc) then it appears that WDTN will read your e-mails (or hear your phone calls) and quite possibly even reply with their side of the story.Seems to me your beef should be with TWC. WDTN is providing their signal to you free of charge. TWC is charging you money, and not giving you what you want. If it's a big enough deal, you can always hit TWC where it counts and drop cable, getting your TV for free OTA.

My opinion: I completely side (100%) with the cable companies on this issue. On the other hand, I side (90%) with The Big Ten Network and the NFL Network on their particular issues (insisting that the networks be carried on at least expanded basic cable).I don't want to pay for those channels. If I were a standard-tier cable subscriber (I'm not) why should I have to pay to subsidize your viewing of those channels? By the way, most of what the Big Ten network has accomplished has been to take OSU football games that used to be available locally OTA for free and put them on a channel that costs money.

I don't want to pay for those channels. If I were a standard-tier cable subscriber (I'm not) why should I have to pay to subsidize your viewing of those channels? By the way, most of what the Big Ten network has accomplished has been to take OSU football games that used to be available locally OTA for free and put them on a channel that costs money.

Well, I don't want to pay for Lifetime, Oxygen, FoxNews, Golf Channel, etc., but I am forced to subsidize others for these channels. Personally, I think the content of the Big Ten network has been outstanding, and worth the price of admission.

As far as OSU football games are concerned, yes, many were carried by ESPN+ and then resold to OTA stations for a fee. There were also a few that went untelevised (up until the 2002 season, I think). A number of other Big Ten matchups also went untelevised in years past. None of the ESPN+ games were in HD. In fact, the picture quality of ESPN+ was awful. So, one, I am happy to incur an additional expense to see the games in HD, and I am happy to incur the additional expense to have the option of seeing other Big Ten matchups.

I think you are also forgetting the OSU basketball games that will be carried by the Big Ten Network in HD. WHIO bought just a few of these games each year. Again, the games were not in HD. Plus, we get to see all of the other Big Ten basketball teams in HD.

Well, I don't want to pay for Lifetime, Oxygen, FoxNews, Golf Channel, etc., but I am forced to subsidize others for these channels.That's true, and I would make the same argument against those channels... I don't want to pay for them. However, keep in mind that those channels you mentioned cost the cable company just a few cents per month per subscriber (several channels are offered for "free" as well), while the Big Ten Network wants a lot more (I believe it's $1.50 per month per subscriber). If they're going to charge a premium price, then they need to be on a special tier. I don't see what the problem is putting them on a sports tier. If you want BTN and the price is worth it, you'll pay it. I personally don't want any part of a network that takes what used to be free and tries to charge me for it.

Personally, I think the content of the Big Ten network has been outstanding, and worth the price of admission.I'm glad you enjoy it, however the majority of consumers would disagree with you, and they shouldn't have to pay for it.

As far as OSU football games are concerned, yes, many were carried by ESPN+ and then resold to OTA stations for a fee. There were also a few that went untelevised (up until the 2002 season, I think). A number of other Big Ten matchups also went untelevised in years past. None of the ESPN+ games were in HD. In fact, the picture quality of ESPN+ was awful. So, one, I am happy to incur an additional expense to see the games in HD, and I am happy to incur the additional expense to have the option of seeing other Big Ten matchups.Let's assume that about the same number of games are on ESPN/ESPN2 and ABC as before the BTN came about. So, basically, a typical OSU fan in Columbus went from getting all of the other OSU games for free OTA to now having to pay extra to get those games. ESPN+ is close to going HD anyway, so I'm not sure that getting a few more games in HD justifies any of the cost.

I think you are also forgetting the OSU basketball games that will be carried by the Big Ten Network in HD. WHIO bought just a few of these games each year. Again, the games were not in HD. Plus, we get to see all of the other Big Ten basketball teams in HD.I'm not forgetting anything. I have no interest in seeing OSU basketball, and again, the vast majority of consumers is not interested in this content, nor are they interested in paying for it.

the Big Ten Network wants a lot more (I believe it's $1.50 per month per subscriber).

Here's BTN's take on this argument.

MYTH: The Big Ten Network wants to charge Comcast and Time Warner Cable $1.10 per subscriber per month.
FACT: Neither Comcast nor Time Warner have ever been presented with a proposal to pay that rate; Big Ten Network's latest proposals to them suggest a rate under $1 for subscribers inside the eight states and about a dime everywhere else in the country, for a proposed average cost nationally of about 30 cents. Additionally, Big Ten Network is offering cable companies three revenue streams to offset their costs: local advertising time, HD packages and video-on-demand. We have been flexible enough with regard to price to be able to reach agreement with 150 other cable operators.

Here's BTN's take on this argument.And here's Time Warner's:

Big Ten Football should not cost you Big Time Bucks.

Time Warner Cable wants to bring you all the Ohio State football and basketball games you enjoyed last year. But the Big Ten Network has taken some of those games away from you and now wants to be paid for them.

What does Big Ten Network want?

The Big Ten Network has said it wants $1.10 per customer per month for cable companies to bring you Big Ten Network programming. At this rate, the Big Ten Network stands to make $237 million each year from cable customers in the Big Ten states alone. Outside the eight-state Big Ten region, Big Ten fans are being asked to pay far less for the same programming - only 10 cents per month per customer. That means an avid Ohio State fan who happens to live in Kentucky only pays $.10 per month while those of us living in Ohio are being asked to pay $1.10 per month. It’s just not fair.

The Big Ten Network wants to be carried as part of the Standard Package, which means every cable customer would have to pay its high asking price for this niche sports programming. Time Warner Cable would like to make it optional for those who do not wish to pay an extra fee for it.

How does the Big Ten Network’s asking price compare to other cable networks?

Other networks that focus exclusively on college sports, including those that provide far more games on a national basis, cost one-tenth the price.
BTN says they have not presented a proposal. That's probably because in talks they have never been able to come close enough to writing up one. According to 3rd party articles referenced on the TWC page, ESPNU costs $0.10 per subscriber and CSTV is $0.18.

Sorry but the cable companies seem to be putting a lot more spin and propaganda out there with the whole BTN situation. I am much more sympathetic to BTN's side of the argument.

Am I happy that BTN exists in the first place? Not really, but now that it does the cable cos (TW and Comcast) stance is ridiculous. In the Big Ten area this network is NO different than the other regionalized sports networks such as FSNs and CSNs that are on standard tiers and in fact charge 2 to 3 times what BTN wants.

If you don't care about sports content, fine. But to sit there and believe TW when it says it's trying to "protect its customers" is naive. They fact is they think BTN will have to cave in and put it on a sports tier. And in turn they know that a lot of people DO want this network and that will equal a much larger profit than putting it on standard.

BTN says they have not presented a proposal. That's probably because in talks they have never been able to come close enough to writing up one.

Well, if you actually read the quote, they have presented proposals and the latest is less than a dollar even for the B10 footprint.BTN's Myth vs. Fact page (http://www.bigtennetwork.com/corporate/Myth-vs-Fact.asp)

This stand off is sadly not about the cost per subscriber, protecting the customer, or customer interest. It's really about the tier placement which impacts how much money each party stands to make.

Placing BTN on an analog tier will allow BTN to make a substantial amount of money where Comcast's and TWC's profit margins are small. Placing BTN on a digital tier will allow Comcast and TWC to make a substantial amount of money in equipment rentals and basic digital service fees on top of the digital sports tier fee. Also, don't think for even a minute that if BTN did agree to digital tier placement that their rate wouldn't be significantly higher to make up some of the revenue difference.

It's also about competition. Both Comcast and TWC own sports networks which they believe compete with BTN. So they are also looking for digital tier placement to separate this channel from their channels on the analog tier.

Also, don't think for even a minute that if BTN did agree to digital tier placement that their rate wouldn't be significantly higher to make up some of the revenue difference. Exactly, the Big 10 Network wants "x" dollars and they don't care how they get it. They'll take a million customers from the analog tier at $.50/ea or 100,000 customers at $5/ea. It's all the same to them. Being on a digital tier hurts B10N further though as advertisers pay per viewer.

Being on a digital tier hurts B10N further though as advertisers pay per viewer.

Good point, I forgot that aspect of the issue, but it would also impact Comcast and TWC as they would also try to sell advertising.

Maybe because of the way I've worded things I've come off as a cable company supporter. That's not the case at all. This whole thing is about people trying to make as much money as possible off of something that was previously free. I am against the BTN because it upsets me that they are taking games that were previously free and now expecting me to pay for them. I am against the cable companies because they won't let me choose which channels I want to pay for.

If you don't care about sports content, fine.I DO care about sport content.

But to sit there and believe TW when it says it's trying to "protect its customers" is naive.I never said I believed that. I simply provided a quote that gave TWC's side of the story, since someone else just posted BTN's side. I thought it was only fair.

Well, if you actually read the quote, they have presented proposalsSorry I misread the quote.

This stand off is sadly not about the cost per subscriber, protecting the customer, or customer interest. It's really about the tier placement which impacts how much money each party stands to make.I agree.

Again, I'm not for either of these "sides." My stance is, why should I have to pay for this? Since I don't have the option to choose what I pay for within cable and satellite services, and because I've found OTA broadcast HDTV to be more than sufficient with less issues (not to mention saving me $52 to over $100 a month), I've let these companies know the best way I can: by dropping their service. Unless something changes, they won't get another dime from me.

ote : I've been searching for the articles which I had read 6months~a year ago or so which had that info in them, but I can't find them currently -


update: Just Found one of them, ironically while searching for something else ... :

Cable TV embraces an old foe: Antenna - Planned device may give industry leverage when it negotiates fees for local broadcasts (http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2007/03/20/cable_tv_embraces_an_old_foe_antenna/)

Good point, I forgot that aspect of the issue, but it would also impact Comcast and TWC as they would also try to sell advertising. How much advertising revenue do they really get ? I don't know how the "tradeoffs" work, but as I understand it, the cable or satellite companies are allowed to insert their ads (for their own company or services or for advertisers who've went to them ?) so many times per hour / day. Does that apply to the local networks too or is it "cable-only" type channels, i.e. ESPN, MTV, Discovery, etc ?

How much advertising revenue do they really get ? I don't know how the "tradeoffs" work, but as I understand it, the cable or satellite companies are allowed to insert their ads (for their own company or services or for advertisers who've went to them ?) so many times per hour / day. Does that apply to the local networks too or is it "cable-only" type channels, i.e. ESPN, MTV, Discovery, etc ?

These are things I don't know. I do know that Cable and DBS insert ads into "cable" programming that are either their own ads or local ads (cable only). You can easily spot these ads as the transitions are generally less than seamless. I've never really noticed it with local programming so I would guess local affiliates don't offer distributors a time slot to insert their own ads over the ones the affiliate has fought hard to sell.

I wouldn't suspect they get much for these ad sales based on the quality/quantity/purchaser of the ads, but on the other hand they're targeted audiences. It would be of more value for a local sports equipment store to buy ads on ESPN than to buy them on, let's say, Sci-Fi or G4 where a local game store would probably have their target market. I would guess they're generally cheaper than buying equivalent air time on a local affiliate.

These are things I don't know. I do know that Cable and DBS insert ads into "cable" programming that are either their own ads or local ads (cable only). You can easily spot these ads as the transitions are generally less than seamless. I've never really noticed it with local programming so I would guess local affiliates don't offer distributors a time slot to insert their own ads over the ones the affiliate has fought hard to sell.

I could always tell the inserts because the return from the break usually up-cut part of the network programming, or the screen would lose video sync for a moment. For a while, TWC was cutting off 30 seconds of PTI out of the same break for a week or two. Guess they had to squeeze in that extra spot for overpriced VoIP phone service.

Exactly, the Big 10 Network wants "x" dollars and they don't care how they get it. They'll take a million customers from the analog tier at $.50/ea or 100,000 customers at $5/ea. It's all the same to them. Being on a digital tier hurts B10N further though as advertisers pay per viewer.

Great point... I think what will happen is when the deal with FSN Ohio is up, FOX is going to "bundle" Big Ten Network and FSN Ohio to where cable must take Big Ten Network to keep FSN Ohio and pay for it no matter what.

I know this is done with other networks like NBC Universal where cable can take a network like USA or Sci-Fi, but must take something smaller like Shop NBC along with it.

Great point... I think what will happen is when the deal with FSN Ohio is up, FOX is going to "bundle" Big Ten Network and FSN Ohio to where cable must take Big Ten Network to keep FSN Ohio and pay for it no matter what. No matter what ? They do have the option of dropping it too.... TW has shown that they're hard-asses and won't be "forced" to do anything. All the public outcry, media stories, and so on haven't changed TW's stance.

No matter what ? They do have the option of dropping it too.... TW has shown that they're hard-asses and won't be "forced" to do anything. All the public outcry, media stories, and so on haven't changed TW's stance.

Oh goodness... Lets pray that doesn't happen. I was trying to think on the up side. :)

I thought I would ask for some help with OTA reception. With the Browns on last weekend I thought I would give WBNS in Columbus a shot at reception. I managed to get the game on WBNS (with some minor dropouts) and was impressed with the picture quality (WBNS has no subchannels). I also managed to pull in WSYX (ABC) and WTTE (FOX). Anyway, later that night I lost WSYX and WTTE completely, and WBNS had significant dropouts. Its basically been hit or miss for the remainder of this week. WBNS comes in the best, but I tend to lose reception as the evening progresses.

Anyway, I'd like to get WBNS on a permanent basis b/c of the NFL coverage and for the NCAA tournament come springtime.

So, my current setup is a CM4228 in my attic. I have a CM 3042 distribution amplifier hooked up in the attic as well. The 3042 gives me 13db of gain.

My question is this: Would a CM 7777 preamp help me get "permamnent" reception of WBNS short of putting the CM4228 on the roof?

BTW, with my current setup I also get reception on the Dayton stations as well as WWHO and WLWT. I'm south of Centerville right on the divide between the Miami and Little Miami watersheds, so I am in a fairly optimal place for reception. Thanks in advance.

was impressed with the picture quality (WBNS has no subchannels).


Most definitely same here ... I get WBNS-DT occasionally via enhanced signal propagation, It looks beautiful, wish I could get them all the time but I'm a little too far from them(and there are terrain issues involved) for that ....



My question is this: Would a CM 7777 preamp help me get "permamnent" reception of WBNS short of putting the CM4228 on the roof?


Only way you're going to know for sure is to try it ...

Otherwise, Difficult to say but my guess would be probably not.

Also difficult to say whether or not issues such as :#1). multipath is involved with your dropouts, and/or 2), whether what you're getting is strictly a signal fading/signal strength issue(signal conditions can especially vary with atmospheric conditions for various reasons when you are in a "far fringe area") related to weak signal+the "extra" attenuation you get by having antenna indoors ...

Note - Regarding #2 , it does seem to be a good sign you are receiving WSYX-DT to some extent with (assumed) UHF antenna(CM4228), as they are on VHF 13 ...

Either way, getting antenna outdoors and "aimed" at columbus will probably help greatly with either isssue #1 or #2, and I think Your best bet to acheive reliable reception of columbus stations would likely be to get antenna on roof. If you like, With rotor to allow for proper aiming for best results from the stations from all 3 markets within your reach - You should be able to get the other Cincinnati stations, and probably the other Columbus stations as well, although WPTO 14 Oxford off the back side might cause you some problems for WCMH-DT (transmits on UHF 14, remaps to 4.x), same thing regarding WCPO-DT 10 Cincinnati/WBNS 10(analog) Columbus ... And theres(probably less of a potential concern given antennas UHF directivity and that a couple of the Cincy stations involved are LP's) WBQC-CA 38 Cincinnati/WOSU-DT 38 Columbus, WCET-DT 34 Cincy/WOSU 34 Columbus, WTTE-DT 36 Columbus/W36DG Cincy. Except for W36DG and WBQC-CA BTW, all those potential cincy/columbus Co-channel issues "go away" on 2/18/09.

Keep in mind, A preamp/amp's "gain" does not actually increase the amount of signal the antenna receives -- The main ways a preamp can help is #1), that It can lower the receive system's noise figure(NF), as the first amplifier stage "sets" the noise figure of the recieve system and most preamps NF's are at least a few db lower than the front end of our DTV receivers (CM's "spec's say CM7777 NF is a bit lower than CM3042 but in most situations the difference is probably insignifcant), and #2). recover losses in feedline between the amp+receiver (splitters, loss in coax/etc) ...


Or, even getting antenna outside "somewhere" away from nearby obstructions especially in direction of transmitters you wish to receive will likely be better than in the attic, which not only attenuates signals greatly(very possibly by as much or more than your antenna has gain), but attics are also often multipath nightmares ....

I might suggest that you might want to stick the antenna outside "temporarily" somewhere to see what you get (higher is usually better, but even "lower" is probably going to be better than in your attic) ....

Other than that, only other thing I can think of that might help would be "optimizing" the placement/posistioning of antenna in attic for best reception ... Which can be a really frustrating "trial and error" thing, and you may need to "optimize it" with the change in seasons as leaves drop/winds blow+multipath conditions change ... .... But, for those who are dead set against putting antenna outdoors, Sometimes just moving it around a "little bit" can make a big difference regarding whether or not you get dropouts or you don't ... Othertimes, you may not be so lucky ... YMMV ...

Hope that helps, let us know how it turns out ...

Well that was a showstopper of a post there, eh?

:)

Great info, Nitewatchman!

I have a Radio Shack VU-190 XR and @ 10 feet above roof top... I get 56 total station and some comes in great and some come in bad.... but get both Cincinati and Dayton station..... I would like to recieve stations further away... would DB8 Antenna, & Low Noise Amplifier be good? and should I get a antenna rotator? I am new at this but have a HDTV with HD Built In.... I live in Zip Code 55402.. Thanks could use all the help i can get...
Robert

I have a Radio Shack VU-190 XR and @ 10 feet above roof top... I get 56 total station and some comes in great and some come in bad.... but get both Cincinati and Dayton station..... I would like to recieve stations further away... would DB8 Antenna, & Low Noise Amplifier be good? and should I get a antenna rotator? I am new at this but have a HDTV with HD Built In.... I live in Zip Code 55402.. Thanks could use all the help i can get...
RobertSee responses to your identical post in the Cincinnati thread.

hi all, i will throw in another 2 cents on this issue..... last nite i was able to get my new PHD-205 tuner up and running as my last (of 2) old RCA ATSC-11 took a dive on me a few months ago and forced me back to analog OTA reception. first, i would like to say this new tuner is GREAT! very sensitive, includes analog and digital and is cable ready (doesn't apply to me as i live out in the country). i have a 50 foot crank up tower with a rotor and am using a channel master 3671B antenna with a cheap little in-line preamp. i swung the antenna around towards dayton last nite and found plenty to watch on digital, even in the cold rainy weather.... i am 70 miles NNE of Dayton, 6 miles east of lima. here are my results.............

WDTN on 2.x were rock solid and very viewable
WHIO on 7.x were hit and miss, maybe 50% as were the other signals on 41.x
WKEF on 22.1 came and went.... again maybe 50% at best
WRGT on 45.x was rock solid and very viewable
some was on 51.1 but never made the trip.........


channel 5, 9, and 12 from cincinnatti were all there on analog, but with snow. i did not check the other cinci stations, usually anything over 120 miles is iffy for me unless we get some good tropospheric ducting. at least with analog you can watch stuff that is not 100% :)

i have NO problem getting all the toledo station's even though the distance is the same (about 70 miles). the difference is the hills between me and dayton. i pretty much look down on toledo from my elevation of just under 1000 feet asl. the detriot area is maybe 50/50 for me.

tonight i will swing the antenna west to ft wayne and then SE to columbus to check digital reception. columbus is always iffy as the "top of ohio" near bellfountaine is right in the way. ft wayne is a straight shot.

on the subject of preamps, the best one i have ever found is this one.. see this link....

http://www.researchcomms.com/hdtv.html

very pricey, but the specs speak for themselves. with box, power supply and the preamp, you may be looking at $400 or so, the amount flucuates with the dollar exchange rate.

IMO for great rock solid OTA reception (under ALL conditions) for digital at 15+ miles requires an outdoor antenna.... the bigger the better. i have been very happy with the channel master 3671B. it is big (18 foot boom length), but it really pulls in that stuff from the fringe areas.

I'm from the same area, about 6 miles north of Celina Ohio or 2 miles west of Neptune. Here's the results I get from a 40 foot tower, CM7777 preamp & Winegard HD9032 UHF, HD5030 VHF antennas.

I just bought a HD TV and for the past 5 year hve been too cheap to pay for cable. We watch movies and I love the HD picture. Anyway what's the best HD antenna and what else do I need to buy to get this set-up in my house. I was told by a guy at radio shack that I need to search on-line to find out how close certain stations are to my house. I'm getting a good idea from this blog but is there a website that lists locations? Tanks for the help.

- Todd Charske

Try antennaweb.com......you shouldnt need much of an antenna to receive the Dayton stations from Beavercreek.

Try antennaweb.com......you shouldnt need much of an antenna to receive the Dayton stations from Beavercreek.

It depends on where in Beavercreek you are, but I'm in Kettering and I have an $11 non-amped antenna in my living room that picks up NBC, CBS, ABC, FOX, and PBS with no problems, and CW which cuts out alot, but doesn't really affect me as I have little interest in watching the station anyways. I wouldn't expect you to have to spend much money at all. If you are looking for an internal set of rabbit ears, most places will let you return them if they don't work for you (BB, CC, RS). So I'd start cheap and work your way up to more expensive and more amplified antennas. If you're looking for an external antenna, then you'll have to ask someone else. I still imagine that you won't need anything expensive to pick up Dayton's locals. You aren't very far away.

Thanks I'm near factory road and dayton xenia

I'm a bit to the north of you (north of Dayton-Xenia) and get decent reception most of the time with one of the Terk knock-off versions of the Silver Sensor. The only times that reception gets problematic are when we have high winds. There are lots of big trees in this neighborhood and the multipath drives my receiver crazy when the wind gets to blowing them around. There's no way I could put up a tower big enough to get above these trees...

Most times you don't need to get above the trees, a well placed highly directional outdoor antenna setup (such as antennasdirectXG91 for UHF) can do wonders for difficulties involving Multipath/and or rapid signal fading issues which can be difficult for your receiver's AGC circuit to handle which trees blowing around can cause but there are no guarentees ....

I think mlbuc (or is he in Kettering?) or one of the other regulars here is in the same area and uses a Silver Sensor or a knock-off of it. There's also someone from the west side of Xenia using a similar antenna to pick up Dayton's channels.

I think mlbuc (or is he in Kettering?) or one of the other regulars here is in the same area and uses a Silver Sensor or a knock-off of it. There's also someone from the west side of Xenia using a similar antenna to pick up Dayton's channels.

I think you are thinking of me. I'm in Beavercreek Township off of Trebein Rd. and use the Silver Sensor in my attic. I pick up all Dayton locals, and depending on time of day I can get some of the Cincinnati stations. It worked out great yesterday considering i get non-interrupted reception of Ch. 12 out of Cincy at around 4PM, so I was able to watch the Patriots kick the crap out of the Steelers :)

...I was able to watch the Patriots kick the crap out of the Steelers :)

I understand that you have to root against a team since you don't have one to root for! :rolleyes:

I understand that you have to root against a team since you don't have one to root for! :rolleyes:

I'm rooting for the Bengals to go 8-8, for the Patriots to go 16-0, for the Dolphins to go 0-16, and for the Steelers to not make the playoffs (but they will, so I will have to settle for rooting for them to lose in the 1st round) :)

Anybody on TWC watching Monday Night Football on ESPNHD having their audio frequently cutting out?

Thanks you for your reply's I think the Silver thing will work. Can you really put these in the attic and not on the roof? Sounds like a good idea if it works to avoid the weathering a little!

Amyway on the other issues

Go Bengals Go Bucks!

Ohio boy here through and through!

Although, I did live in Pittsburgh for 2 years I just can't like them because of how extremely obnoxious their fans are most of which have never lived in Pittsburgh. That's my problem with the Steelers.

Your attic is no different than your living except it's higher. I had my knock-off version in the attic also.

Can you really put these in the attic and not on the roof?You can but the attic introduces additional multipath issues, as well as additional attenuation which would not occur on the roof. That's not to say it won't work though. You can always give it a try and see the results...

The silver sensor is not built for the roof.

I have a Channel Master CM-4228 antenna on my roof in Kettering. I do have a silver sensor on another TV, which gets decent reception, but not perfect (of course, it is in the opposite corner of the house from the TV towers, thus is pointing all the way back through the house).

I know some people here are interested in when DirecTV will offer Dayton locals in HD, so I thought this might be of interest: DTV announced 11 new markets to receive HD locals by mid-2008, and Dayton still ain't one of 'em.

The 11 local markets to receive HD programming from DIRECTV include:

* Albany/Schenectady/Troy, N.Y.

* Paducah, Ky.

* Cedar Rapids/Waterloo, Iowa

* Tucson, Ariz.

* Flint/Saginaw/Bay City, Mich.

* Waco/Temple/Bryan, Texas

* Lincoln/Hastings, Neb.

* Wichita/Hutchinson, Kan.

* Louisville, Ky.

* Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pa.

* Omaha, Neb.



http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/071205/20071205005927.html?.v=1 (http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/071205/20071205005927.html?.v=1)

Phil

Paducah KY ? That's a joke, right ?

Paducah KY ? That's a joke, right ?Saw the same post on the Lexington thread a few days ago... those folks weren't too happy to see Paducah either :)

I was testing a new HD tuner last night and was recording How I met your mother, and CSI Miami (both on 7-1). This was OTA reception.

HIMYM looked fine picture wise but the sound was very quiet. Commercials had normal sound.

CSI Miami had good sound but the picture wasn't in HD.

Just was wondering if any other people saw the same problems?

I should add that I had them recorded on my DirecTV HR20 in HD through the Cincinnati local DirecTV has on their mpeg4 satellite. Both shows looked and sounded great through them.

I looked up Paducah on wikipedia and the town has a population of 25000 or so... I'm surprised they have a single TV station !

TV markets (DMA = Designated marketing areas) are usually much larger than the population of any particular city. The AVSforum local thread index currently shows Paducah with 390,000 TV households (probably an average of 2 or 3 persons per households, haven't checked that stat lately), and DMA Market #79.

Dayton is DMA #62 with approx. 511,000 TV households. yeah, it's bigger, but not by THAT much ...

TV markets (DMA = Designated marketing areas) are usually much larger than the population of any particular city. The AVSforum local thread index currently shows Paducah with 390,000 TV households (probably an average of 2 or 3 persons per households, haven't checked that stat lately), and DMA Market #79.

Dayton is DMA #62 with approx. 511,000 TV households. yeah, it's bigger, but not by THAT much ...

Do you know which areas are included in the Dayton MSA? I would assume Springfield is, but would those numbers change the number of TV households that are in range of the Dayton towers?

I'm certainly wishing that Dish had Dayton HD's, but alas, those seem to be over the horizon as well. Anyone know where that list is published?

Do you know which areas are included in the Dayton MSA?


MSA(metropolitan service area) is different than DMA and is based on such things census data and the "centers" of populations in given areas regions ....

DMA is what it's "all about" for the sat carriers and stations ... Here is Dayton DMA map(shaded area), for which springfield is included :

http://ekb.dbstalk.com/TVMarkets/City%20Maps/Dayton.gif

Here are the MSA maps for Ohio(you can also find out info on what MSA's "are" from here, springfield has its Own MSA :

http://lmi.state.oh.us/maps/MapofMSAs2000.htm


would those numbers change the number of TV households that are in range of the Dayton towers?


They(springfield) are included in those Dayton numbers, anyone within the DMA is.

Also, There are *many* more folks within range of Dayton towers(which are a couple miles SW of Downtown Dayton) than are inside Dayton DMA who can receive the Dayton stations OTA (but not via DBS LiL), because the Signals don't allways follow DMA boundries. Dayton stations coverage areas reach out about 55~65 Miles, Pretty much to Columbus and Past cincinnati into Northern KY.

I'm In Cincinnati DMA for instance, but am only 12 miles from Dayton towers, while I'm ~32 miles from Cincinnati transmitters ...

Most cable systems serviing areas between Dayton+Cincinnati carry Dayton stations(as well as Cincinnati) even though they are out of market stations .... Dayton Cable has Cincinnati stations in most areas as well, as they are so close (Dayton+Cincinnati towers are only about 40 miles apart, their signals cover the majority of population in both markets ...) .....

Paducah ... with 390,000 TV households (probably an average of 2 or 3 persons per households, haven't checked that stat lately), and DMA Market #79.

Dayton is DMA #62 with approx. 511,000 TV households. yeah, it's bigger, but not by THAT much ... The DMA ranking doesn't appear to be that much of a factor anymore.... The issue is $$$, contracts, negotiations, and so on nowadays.

I also realize that the DMA includes more than the 'named' city but I just expected a little more correlation between the size of the main city and it's surrounding market. Just look at Paducah on a map... It's hard to believe it has almost 400,000 homes.

I was testing a new HD tuner last night and was recording How I met your mother, and CSI Miami (both on 7-1). This was OTA reception.

HIMYM looked fine picture wise but the sound was very quiet. Commercials had normal sound.

CSI Miami had good sound but the picture wasn't in HD.

Just was wondering if any other people saw the same problems?

I should add that I had them recorded on my DirecTV HR20 in HD through the Cincinnati local DirecTV has on their mpeg4 satellite. Both shows looked and sounded great through them.

The problem is not in your set! It appeared WHIO was having some problems and they switched away from the HD feed while they were attempting to resolve them.

What is up with ThinkTv one HD channel and 4 SD channels.

What is up with ThinkTv one HD channel and 4 SD channels.

I'm guessing that it's probably a mistake or a test, and it's not happening on WPTO-DT(of course there programming is completely different anyway), just WPTD-DT ... Hope so anyway, I've seen it happen before ...

Update: Then again, with WCET-DT reportedly changing their HD service from 24/7 -* PBS HD channel feed next week to simulcasting the WCET 48 analog programming, with HD "only" presumably only when it's available for that programming schedule (No HD for "lawrence welk" for instance, so there will likely be a lot of SD upconverts on there now whearas now it's HD(or Widescreen SD upconverted at PBS) on 48.1 whenever the station is on the air) : It certianly would be nice if WPTD-DT could start sending the PBS HD channel 24/7 rather than just 6pm to 6am .... However, They should drop all the SD channels (or at least all but 1 of them, or transcode to 720p and multicast 1 or 2 SD subchannels) though, and make WPTD-DT HD only for the best quality .... The SD channels can go on WPTO-DT, at least 6 of them ...

* - except OTA when WCET goes off air 1am~6am 3 or 4 nights a week, and except between 6pm~7:30 M~F when they've been upconverting Newshour/NBR lately ..

It's varying quite a bit, but the 1080i HD video on 16-6 is getting between about 5~8Mb/s currently, with the SD video running about 2mb~3mb/s or so max per channel .... Although the MPEG2 blocking issues are horrible on the HD channel, I'm surprised it's not worse, it's bad enough with 2SD+1 HD ....

Files in Attached zip file archive shows analysis of their transport stream, currently, with video thumbnails/screenshots for the video decode (from TSreader html export) ... Just unzip them all and click on the HTMl file for the text, scroll down to near bottom for "PID usage list" for the bandwidth usage (PID 0x0071 is 16.6 HD video) .... Sorry the filenames got changed during the zip as I'm using an "ancient" version of PKzip(dos) that supports 8.3 characters max for filenames so you'll have to click on the jpgs for the video decode thumbnails, they would usually show up in the HTML file) ..

So is something going on with the CW up in Dayton?

Supernatural and Smallville weren't in HD yesterday night.

This was OTA reception in my case.

Anybody else see this?

^ Didn't catch that from WBDT-DT, I'll try to remember to check it for tomorrow evening's CW HD and see what happens ... Update: Well, I forgot about it, I don't think anything that aired on CW between 8~10pm would have been HD anyway, but I think some of the shows between 5~7pm in the "old" WB easyview slots should have been(They usually are)


On another note
Noticed ThinkTV/WPTD-DT has been at 3SD services+1 HD last couple of Days/nights, Max HD bitrate running around 10mb/s currently(Yikes! This ain't H.264 or VC-1!) ... lots of mosquito noise, looks on the soft side as well(prefiltering before encoder perhaps? ) so, appears to me like this "mistake" is likely an intentional one ;)

So is something going on with the CW up in Dayton?

Supernatural and Smallville weren't in HD yesterday night.

Anybody else see this?

"Everybody Hates Chris" was SD from WBDT-DT tonight when I first checked it a few minutes ago, but now they've switched to the HD feed as of 8:16pm EDT ...


----------

On another note, noticed "Newshour" was HD from WPTD-DT/PBS HD at 7~8pm, didn't think that was supposed to start happening until January .... Didn't check it at 6pm, to see if it was HD then from WPTD-DT or WCET-DT, it's usual East coast timeslot on PBS SD NPS(national program service) feed ...

Anyone else suspect the reason dayton was passed over by directv is the stiffs at channel 2. I would bet channel 2 won't grant carriage and so directv doesn't want to launch with only three networks. Kind of sucks for all the directv suscribers recieving the new h21, hr21s with no ota input. Can we get a waiver to get the cincy local hds for now? I've quit watching channel 2, I wish they would cease the bad business practices.

Neither D* nor E* require all of the major networks to sign on before they'll carry the locals. If they got WHIO, WKEF, and WRGT to sign, they'd probably go forward.

FYI for those who think WKEF won't allow cable/dbs to carry its digital signal -- I was up in Auglaize county a couple of weeks ago. WDTN-DT is carried there by the local cable system, NKTelco.

Thanks for the help blog crew. I habve good direction my my Beavercreek home now!

- Todd Charske

Anyone else suspect the reason dayton was passed over by directv is the stiffs at channel 2. I would bet channel 2 won't grant carriage and so directv doesn't want to launch with only three networks. Kind of sucks for all the directv suscribers recieving the new h21, hr21s with no ota input. Can we get a waiver to get the cincy local hds for now? I've quit watching channel 2, I wish they would cease the bad business practices.

I have heard what the pick-up site for Direct TV is in the Channel 2 studio building. If that is right Channel 2 is already making money off of Direct -TV..

The CE of WDTN told me that they do the up-linking of Dayton's locals to Dish Network. I only asked about Dish but it may be the case for DirecTV too.

Thanks for the help blog crew. This isn't a "blog"... :eek:

Hope that helps, let us know how it turns out ...

I never thanked you for your detailed post. I thought I would report back on my attempt to get Columbus stations with a CM4228 in my attic (south of Centerville). Over the past few weeks, I experimented a bit with the antenna location in the attic without much success. I also tightened up a few of the coax connections in the attic.

I ended up opting to try a CM 7777 preamp. It boosted my signal meter reading on WBNS from 68-70 to about 80-84. I have not had a single dropout since. I also can pull in WTTE out of Columbus well. WSYX is still touch and go. My main goal of getting WBNS, however, is accomplished.

To my surpirse, I can now also get WKRC, WXIX, and WSTR. WCPO comes in fine on the analog channel but the digital version doesn't come in at all. Perhaps I'll add a VHF only antenna and point it at Cincinnati for college football next season.

One thing I am a bit suprised about is WDTN. For some reason the signal dropped a bit with the CM 7777 so I get an occasional dropout. WLWT is about the same -- but both are watchable. All the other Dayton stations are fine.

So, for NFL football it will be nice having a choice between 3 CBS affiliates and 3 FOX affiliates. If I can get WCPO online for next fall, I'll also have at least two choices for college football on ABC.

FYI for those who think WKEF won't allow cable/dbs to carry its digital signal -- I was up in Auglaize county a couple of weeks ago. WDTN-DT is carried there by the local cable system, NKTelco.

Yep, I have NKTELCO here in Minster, Auglaize Co. In order its 81.1 WDTN-DT (NBC) 1080i, 81.2 WKEF-DT (ABC) 720p, 82.1 WHIO-DT (CBS) 1080i, 82.2 WRGT-DT (FOX) 720p. Your TV just has to have a Clear QAM tuner and have the regular Basic ch. 2-80 package. They only just recently lined all the channels up as before they were on 81, 82, 83 and 87.

WHIO is the only one that has their local newscast in HD the rest are in 4:3 SD. But I notice that WHIO's newscast has a little bit of weird sound issues, whether it seems that it is too high pitched on the 'ssss' sounds, with occasional crackling, or the sound will drop out for a split second at various times.

It would be nice if they would transmit WPTD-DT since I see that other people have it. But this lineup is still better than Time Warner's (formerly Adelphia here) which has two ABC's the other being WPTA from Ft. Wayne, I don't think you get NBC (WDTN) either which sucks. TW makes you have to have a Digital box to get these HD Channels.

On my Panasonic 42pz77u I don't get any program data sent with the channels but I think that is an NKTELCO issue, unless no one gets any, and I don't get any with the analogue one's either.

I haven't tried an outdoor antenna since I don't have one and when I tried a dinky little indoor one I got static.

WHIO is the only one that has their local newscast in HD the rest are in 4:3 SD. But I notice that WHIO's newscast has a little bit of weird sound issues, whether it seems that it is too high pitched on the 'ssss' sounds, with occasional crackling, or the sound will drop out for a split second at various times...

Although WHIO-DT's news looks very good, it isn't actually HD--just widescreen. I've noticed the harshness in the audio, too. It's like they've got the high frequencies cranked.

Although WHIO-DT's news looks very good, it isn't actually HD--just widescreen. It sure does fool plenty of people though....

It sure does fool plenty of people though....

Agreed. I'd be willing to say that it looks better to me than some of the HD channels on Dish Network. I've only got a 720p 42" LCD though...

Wow, I didn't know that. Damn, when I saw all the wrinkles in Jim Baldridge's face, which made him look years older compared to always seeing him with our 27" SDTV, I was like this is HD. I was suprised when you guys said that it's just Widescreen. So are they just 480i wide or 480p because I just don't get how it can look that good and not be 720p or 1080i. Though when they do the weather all the various graphics they put up look blurry and nasty compared to the widescreen local radar and then the rest of the news.

I'm attempting to help my gf hook up her new Sony HDTV. She's in Fairborn with TWC basic cable. Is there a trick to picking up WHIO-DT? We're getting the 14.xx, 16.xx, 22.x, 45.xx and a few others, but nothing for WHIO-DT after multiple scans. Anyone have any suggestions? She has all new cable runs from the pole on into the house so I wouldn't think it'd be a signal issue.

Does anyone have a list of the actual channel numbers vs. the virtual channel numbers for clear QAM?

Perhaps someone with a TWC set-top can go into diagnostics mode and confirm that WHIO's channel is not being encrypted. Did you look up in the 80+ (80-115) range also ?

I looked at everything it picked up in the clear. I also looked at channels it didn't include that the TV thinks are encrypted, but there are literally hundreds to cycle through. She's got a small bedroom DTV that picks up everything it's supposed to, but there's no diagnostic mode available in the user menus. We actually ended up taking the TV back because it was missing a trim panel from the factory. We'll give it another shot when the replacement comes in next week.

My new Pioneer Plasma Tv (PRO-110FD) utilizes a TV Guide listing which receives the guide data from the local PBS station and up until recently (past 2 months) has worked flawlessly. On December 24th my guide just listed "NO LISTING" in each channel and has stayed there up through today.

Does anybody else have this issue? Is my TV looking for channel 14 or 16 (both PBS)? Are both broadcasting? Did someone turn off or modify the data stream?

Thanks,
John

I installed two sharp 32" lcds lately. One in washington twnshp, the other in centerville. Neither found whio-dt. Usually its on channel 91.1. I thought this was a sharp issue but apparently it is more far ranging. Nice of TWC to mess with the free QAM around christmas time. Those ads they've been running in the dayton daily news for HD cable sevice with your new tv must not be bringing in enough business. I guess it suited them better into tricking their customers into a $7.95/month set top box. Cable Card anyone? Oh no, they killed those too...

My new Pioneer Plasma Tv (PRO-110FD) utilizes a TV Guide listing which receives the guide data from the local PBS station and up until recently (past 2 months) has worked flawlessly. On December 24th my guide just listed "NO LISTING" in each channel and has stayed there up through today.

Does anybody else have this issue? Is my TV looking for channel 14 or 16 (both PBS)? Are both broadcasting? Did someone turn off or modify the data stream?

Thanks,
John

I called last Friday and the TV Guide encoder is out of service and a new one will be in Wednesday 1-2-08. Channel 16 is the only one in the Dayton market.

My parents do NOT get WHIO-DT via QAM in Lima (w/ TWC). I'm positive that people have stated it was available this way in the past.

i havent tried these in about 4 weeks. but they worked before i moved to a digi box.
this is for dayton
91.1 WHIO
93.1 WRGT
93.2 WKEF
108.1-5 WPTD
108.6-10 WPTO
109.1-4 WCET
109.5 WBDT (was missing, I'll have to see if it's back)
114.1 Discovery HD
114.2 TNT HD
117-120.1 random EWTN Stuff

i know for a fact that discovery and tnt are gone because they went away before i switched.

I installed two sharp 32" lcds lately. One in washington twnshp, the other in centerville. Neither found whio-dt. Usually its on channel 91.1. I thought this was a sharp issue but apparently it is more far ranging. Nice of TWC to mess with the free QAM around christmas time. Those ads they've been running in the dayton daily news for HD cable sevice with your new tv must not be bringing in enough business. I guess it suited them better into tricking their customers into a $7.95/month set top box. Cable Card anyone? Oh no, they killed those too...

Prior to mid-December, I can't remember the exact date, we had 22.1, 45.1 and 45.2 assigned to 93.1, 93.2 and 93.4, or something like that, on TWC here in Piqua via clear QAM. Then one day all three of those digital channels disappeared. I did another channel scan on the TV and TWC apparently moved them to 22.1, 45.1 and 45.2.

Someone else mentioned having problems with WHIO through TWC and I have not had any problems with those here. The two digital channels have been 7.1 and 7.2 and working just fine since Thanksgiving.

TWC apparently moved them to 22.1, 45.1 and 45.2.They were probably remapped by your TV to virtual channels 22-1, 45-1, and 45-2. They are probably still actually on 93 but PSIP data tells your TV how to display the channel to you. It's possible that PSIP data wasn't being passed properly, and then once that was fixed your TV displayed the channels properly.

sometimes they get moved around.. if the ones i listed above are not there hen do a rescan for them.. maybe they ngot moved as they do sometimes or maybe in fact they did get encrypted.. wouldnt put it past tw.

jimp is correct. those are not the frequencies for those channels ie: 7.1 22.1 45.1 those are remapped by the tv to the digi channel. the actual will be in the 90's and 100's

They were probably remapped by your TV to virtual channels 22-1, 45-1, and 45-2. They are probably still actually on 93 but PSIP data tells your TV how to display the channel to you. It's possible that PSIP data wasn't being passed properly, and then once that was fixed your TV displayed the channels properly.

Ahh, ok. I just knew they changed for me and thought that might be the case for others too. Thanks for the extra info.

I called last Friday and the TV Guide encoder is out of service and a new one will be in Wednesday 1-2-08. Channel 16 is the only one in the Dayton market.


Thanks for the info! I'm just glad it is not my new Tv. Isn't sharing information great! Wonder when it will be operational?

Thanks again,
John

Anyone else getting extrememly frequent audio dropouts on the TWC HD channels lately. Tonight's Orange Bowl broadcast on 745 (WRGT) is dropping audio very frequently. It was doing it New Year's Eve on many of the HD channels too.

I just noticed it only does it on the HDTV hooked up through the cable box on 745. The other HDTV hooked directly to the cable and tuned to 45.1 does not have the audio dropouts.

I don't think it's limited to TWC. I've got nearly full signal on WGRT45 OTA in Springfield and it's doing the same little cut outs.

I don't think the video quality is all that good either for the orange bowl. Usually their football games seem much sharper.

AT&T has been doing lots of digging and putting in new boxes around Beavercreek. Anyone heard if they are bringing their flavor of IPTV to the Dayton area?

Yes, there are "plans" for that...

http://www.google.com/search?q=att+u-verse+dayton&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

No problems here with the game OTA.

I installed two sharp 32" lcds lately. One in washington twnshp, the other in centerville. Neither found whio-dt. Usually its on channel 91.1. I thought this was a sharp issue but apparently it is more far ranging. Nice of TWC to mess with the free QAM around christmas time. Those ads they've been running in the dayton daily news for HD cable sevice with your new tv must not be bringing in enough business. I guess it suited them better into tricking their customers into a $7.95/month set top box. Cable Card anyone? Oh no, they killed those too...

Found WHIO-DT on TWC in Fairborn tonight with the new TV on 91.2, and 91.22 for their weather sub. It's not remapping to 7.1 and 7.2. When I checked last week they weren't anywhere to be found, no matter how many channel scans I did. Thanks for everyone's help.

Here is the scenario:

I have a four story house on the east side of Dayton (Linden/Smithville area, starting to rise upwards topographically,approximately 7 miles due east of the Gettysburg antenna farm. I have a 20+ year old massive "fish skeleton" antenna attached to a chimney, probably 60' feet high from street level. It has some wires dangling, but not connected, which could be reached and brought thru a fourth story window.

Main tv viewing area is on third floor with coax run from third to fourth, but not used. TW subscriber, full HDTV setup, annoyed with watching NBC football on crappy SD.

That being said, I am a child of coax cable. A number of questions: Is that thing on my chimney suitable for use to retrieve whatever stations I can receive in HD? What form of device would I need to purchase to convert the black rubber wrapped wires to my coax line that is in place to attach to my HDTV?

I have been lurking in other parts of avs for some time. On a wild hair, I thought I would check out this subforum. Imagine my surprise that WDTN does broadcast a HD signal. Imagine my chagrin in realizing that I have been watching crappy SD signals on Sunday night football all damn season.

Here is the scenario:

I have a four story house on the east side of Dayton (Linden/Smithville area, starting to rise upwards topographically,approximately 7 miles due east of the Gettysburg antenna farm. I have a 20+ year old massive "fish skeleton" antenna attached to a chimney, probably 60' feet high from street level. It has some wires dangling, but not connected, which could be reached and brought thru a fourth story window.

Main tv viewing area is on third floor with coax run from third to fourth, but not used. TW subscriber, full HDTV setup, annoyed with watching NBC football on crappy SD.

That being said, I am a child of coax cable. A number of questions: Is that thing on my chimney suitable for use to retrieve whatever stations I can receive in HD? What form of device would I need to purchase to convert the black rubber wrapped wires to my coax line that is in place to attach to my HDTV?

I have been lurking in other parts of avs for some time. On a wild hair, I thought I would check out this subforum. Imagine my surprise that WDTN does broadcast a HD signal. Imagine my chagrin in realizing that I have been watching crappy SD signals on Sunday night football all damn season.

Very hard to say for sure about your antenna, because we don't really know what kind of condition it's in (if it has taken a beating, it may have mis-aligned or bent/broken some of the elements). We also don't know whether it's a VHF, UHF, or VHF/UHF combo antenna. If it has several long, horizontal elements that get smaller as it moves toward the front, and then a "mouth" looking thing on the front of it, it is probably a combo antenna. If you would like to take a picture we could probably tell from that.

As for the set-up, being that close to the Dayton towers you shouldn't really have any trouble at all, unless the antenna is in awful shape. I believe the "black rubber wrapped wires" you refer to are twin-lead antenna cable. You can get a balun (also called matching transformer) from Radio Shack for a couple of bucks that will convert the 300 Ohm twin-lead to 75 Ohm Coax. You can get one that would attach directly to the leads on the antenna (and thus your entire cable run could be coax, or you can get one that would attach to the end of the twin-lead and continue coax from there.

Here is a link (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=WMXFMRPT) that shows you what a balun looks like (this kind you can attach directly to the leads on the antenna and then just run coax). If your balun will be outside make sure it is weather proofed.

Once you get your cable run, you can use any TV with an ATSC tuner built in to receive digital channels. You probably won't have many problems being that close to the towers, but you'll still want to make sure the antenna is properly aimed.

You may also have some luck receiving Cincinnati digital (and analog) channels, which often times can give you additional program variety. You can plug in your address at www.tvfool.com to get a rough idea of what channels you may be able to receive.

Good luck, let us know how it goes, and enjoy the free OTA HD!

I have a four story house on the east side of Dayton (Linden/Smithville area... Hey, we're neighbors.... At our distance, you can use almost any antenna for reception of the Dayton channels. For a long time, I used the Radio Shack $4 bow-tie antenna hanging in my front west-facing window. I suspect your antenna will work fine regardless of it's condition, so long as you can get it wired up properly.

Center channel audio is out on WKEF-DT.

WKEF switched to the SD feed of Desparate Houswives.

My wife is "desperately" clamoring to watch it online but it's not available yet.... I tried to get some center-audio out of my receiver by forcing it to ProLogic, different "surround" modes, and even tried to turn off DD on the Dish receiver to no avail. That's definitely one down-side to DVR'ing TV shows. You don't know something's wrong until it's too late.

That's definitely one down-side to DVR'ing TV shows. You don't know something's wrong until it's too late.Very true. I've been known to record the same show on two different channels when it's really important :)

WLWT-DT had American Gladiators in SD tonight. Guess they didn't realize the show was in HD!

I do think I'll call the station and ask them when they're going to re-play it.

She had Cold Case recording also but I do still have one more tuner to record from (3 things at once can be handy !). I won't record a show like this (or Cold Case or Heroes or ER or ....) on two tuners "just in case". It's not that important ! It's blasphemy for saying it at this website but .... "it's just TV". :D

This wasn't national, was it ? I'm gonna check the Programming forum in a minute.

WLWT-DT had American Gladiators in SD tonight. Guess they didn't realize the show was in HD!Whoops meant to post this in Cincinnati thread. Oh well... anyone catch Gladiators on WDTN and note if they had it in HD?

Just made the switchback to Directv, looking to see what type of antennea I might need to get the Networks. I live outside Lima and have the ability to place an antenna fairly high. Just not sure what antenna to get - looking at channelmaster 4228 and DB8 (leaning toward the latter). I might try in my attic first. Since these are UHF only are the the two to look at?

I've enclosed a listing of channels from tvfool that shows a number of channels on the outer range of these high power units. I'm a little unclear, do all these channels get picked up by a uhf only antenna?

Just made the switchback to Directv, looking to see what type of antennea I might need to get the Networks. I live outside Lima and have the ability to place an antenna fairly high. Just not sure what antenna to get - looking at channelmaster 4228 and DB8 (leaning toward the latter). I might try in my attic first. Since these are UHF only are the the two to look at?

I've enclosed a listing of channels from tvfool that shows a number of channels on the outer range of these high power units. I'm a little unclear, do all these channels get picked up by a uhf only antenna?VHF is channels 2-13 and UHF is 14 and up. You have to look at the "Real" column of your attached image. WLIO-DT will show up on your TV as 35-1, but in the "Real" column you can see that it's actually broadcast on VHF channel 8.

You may get lucky and find that a UHF-only antenna picks up VHF channels in some situations, especially if you are in a strong signal area, however, I would not count on this and keep in mind that is out of the specifications of the antenna. That said, I believe the 4228 and DB8 both actually have some unintended VHF properties that make them actually decent high-VHF performers (channels 7-13), but again, don't count on them for distant VHF reception, which you might need for WANE-DT 4 (CBS) and WLMB-DT 5.

Whoops meant to post this in Cincinnati thread. Oh well... anyone catch Gladiators on WDTN and note if they had it in HD?

It was HD. Looked pretty good, but the announcing was pretty cheesy.

I got "wife whacked" by the dvr'd desperate housewives too.....Thanks WKEF! I got the "look" like it was my fault. Geesh ;)

I got "wife whacked" by the dvr'd desperate housewives too.....Thanks WKEF! I got the "look" like it was my fault. Geesh ;)

Newsgroups can come in handy to keep the wife happy when this happens. I had the same problem this week.

TV Guide and SAP is off WPTD-TV analog because of STL (studio transmitter link ) microwave problems. Maybe Wednesday of next week before problem can be fix.

Just made the switchback to Directv, looking to see what type of antennea I might need to get the Networks. I live outside Lima and have the ability to place an antenna fairly high. Just not sure what antenna to get - looking at channelmaster 4228 and DB8 (leaning toward the latter). I might try in my attic first. Since these are UHF only are the the two to look at?

I've enclosed a listing of channels from tvfool that shows a number of channels on the outer range of these high power units. I'm a little unclear, do all these channels get picked up by a uhf only antenna?


I hope you have better luck than I do. I put up a radio shack VU-90XR about 30 feet high and all I can pull in is WBGU/WLIO and WTLW. Oddly enough I was able to pull in the Fort Wayne stations (WPTA and WTSE) a few days ago before I raised the antenna 10 more feet. I"m so confused! :confused: