Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 21

Nitewatchman

01-16-08, 02:24 PM

^ WBNS-DT 21 (remaps to 10-x) Columbus and WPTA 21 (analog) FT. Wayne are co-channel, that probably doesn't help ... WPTA analog will be gone in 13 months though, and both these DT's are staying where they are (WPTA-DT on 24, WBNS-DT on 21) ...

Here is WBNS-DT 21 predicted coverage area map(takes issues such as terrain into account) :

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dWBNS%26type%3dD

Here is WPTA 21 analog predicted coverage area map(takes issues such as terrain into account) :

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=80&q=call%3dWPTA%26type%3dA

Difficult to say whether or not you'll be able to acheive reliable reception from that distance(which is a bit beyond curvature of earth +the stations "fringe" coverage areas). But it's somewhat a possibility, especially if you're on a hill or fairly high "flat" ground (The latter is probably the case from what I can recall of that area) ... If you haven't already done so, you might want to punch in your address or lat/long coordinates here and see what sort of signal level it predicts for you for columbus stations :

www.tvfool.com

If it's a situation where you've consistantly got a signal that is just a bit below threshold for DTV reception with your current antenna setup then you've probably got a shot at it. If not, then my guess would be that it's probably not going to happen .... You *MAY* be able to tell this from the "signal meter" on your receiver (if it has one) ... although the improvements you may need to make may involve more than just a better preamp .... For instance, you may end up needing something along the lines of the antenna setups in pic here, and it's also still entirely possible something like this may still not give you 100% reliable reception of the Columbus stations 24/7 :

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas

If you're just interested in one station (such as WBNS-DT), a single channel Yagi (you'd use this for reception ONLY of this one station) might be a good thing to try ....

Also, Assuming you're probably getting enough signal from WLIO-DT 8 to recieve it with your UHF antenna, if there are any other VHF stations in the area you're interested in, You may want to add a VHF antenna to the setup , at least Hi-VHF antenna(such as winegard YA-1713 or if you can find one perpahs one of the Funke PSP1922's in the pics at link above) for stations like WSYX-DT 13(remaps to 6-x) Columbus ...

As for preamp, basically a preamp can't increase the amount of signal being received by antenna, it can only recover losses from feedline/run splitting *and* improve the overall senstivity of the system if its noise figure is lower than you're receiver front End NF(which is usually the case by at least 4~5db or so) .... Difficult to say if you would notice any difference if you switched to a different preamp, and I don't know the specs of the Phillips model you're using or how long your feedline run is/how many splitters/etc you are using ... Preamps such as CM7777 (Winegard+Blonder-Tongue make some nice ones as well) are usually a good choice for long range reception, and I may not be thinking about it "enough", but I don't think there should be an issue in this case with nearby strong signals "overloading" things with the use of a amp such as CM7777 .....

Hope that helps, let us know how it goes ....

bari_old_dad

01-16-08, 03:24 PM

...

Thanks for the detailed reply. I do get the Ft Wayne ABC affiliate on 21 very good now. At least one night . . .

Co-channeling may be the culprit, as Ft Wayne and CMH are about 180° apart from my location.

I plugged in the coverage map for the Columbus Fox Affiliate, WTTE, and it looks a lot like WBNS. Hot pink for both, as well as WPTA - Ft Wayne. I wasn't aware TVfool had that capability.

The dB chart for my location shows nearly everyone well into the "gray"- with the exception of the Lima-area stations, only two of whom (WLIO and WTLW) actually transmit anything OTA.

How much does height matter for our terrain? I have an old tower; if my brother-in-law gets to take his bucket-truck home some weekend, I could conceivably move my antenna another 20 - 30 feet higher. What's the chance that would be worth the effort?

The downside of the tower is accessibility for repairs, enhancements, etc. Much easier to get to the roof / chimney.

Thanks also for your comment on the "permanent" / eventual home for these stations. I read where many were expected to "relocate" back to VHF after the analog goes away, but the PDF I found shows most of the OH stations staying UHF. WLIO is an exception, and I think I saw one Columbus station that was staying VHF. I do get the Lima area stations - WLIO-DT, 8.1 et al very clear, doesn't seem to matter where the antenna is pointed.

Nitewatchman

01-17-08, 06:38 PM

bari_old_dad --

What about Dayton? I would have thought after WTLW/WLIO and probably WBGU digitals, the Dayton stations would probably be the next "easiest" to receive from your location ...

How much does height matter for our terrain?

It can matter A lot when you're in weak signal area beyond curvature of earth, or if you are more "within" coverage area but are dealing with terrain obstructions, but you may need to get antenna much higher than just 20 or 30 FT higher to make enough "difference" ....

I could conceivably move my antenna another 20 - 30 feet higher. What's the chance that would be worth the effort?

It might do wonders in this case , no way to know really, without trying it ... You could add 20/30ft to the antenna height for your TVfool prediction and see how the prediction changes, although keep in mind that's just a "prediction", it's possible things could turn out a bit better(or worse) in the real world ....

Thanks also for your comment on the "permanent" / eventual home for these stations. I read where many were expected to "relocate" back to VHF after the analog goes away, but the PDF I found shows most of the OH stations staying UHF. WLIO is an exception, and I think I saw one Columbus station that was staying VHF. I do get the Lima area stations - WLIO-DT, 8.1 et al very clear, doesn't seem to matter where the antenna is pointed.

Other than any new stations or LP DTV stations that might end up on VHF, WLIO-DT 8 and WSYX-DT 13(columbus) are probably the two VHF digitals you'd get(or have some sort of a shot at concerning the latter) without enhanced signal propagation ("dx") .... These would probably be the ones you'd see most often via the latter :

WCPO-DT 10 (ABC HD) Cincinnati (staying on 10 after analog shut off)
WKRC-DT (CBS HD cincinnati (now on 31, moving to 12 after analog shut off)
WJW-DT Cleveland (Currently on 31, moving to 8 after analog shut off)
WMFD-DT Mansfield (currently on 12, staying on 12)
WOIO-DT Cleveland (currently on 10, staying on 10)
WLMB-DT Toledo (currently on 5, staying on 5 - only one that's lo-VHF)
WTOL-DT Toledo (currently on 17, moving to 11 after analog shut off)
WTVG-DT Toledo (currently on 19, moving to 13 after analog shut off)
WJBK-DT Detroit (currently on 58, moving to 7 after analog shut off)
WISH-DT Indy (currently on 9, staying on 9)
WTHR-DT Indy (currently on 46, moving to 13)
WLFI-DT Layfayette, IN ( currently on 11, staying on 11)

There a few more you'd probably see fairly often as well, such as WDKY-DT 4 Lexington, KY, WOOD-DT 7 (currently on 7/staying there) ... Grand rapids, MI ...

Nitewatchman

01-17-08, 06:42 PM

bari_old_dad --

What about Dayton? I would have thought after WTLW/WLIO and probably WBGU digitals, the Dayton stations would probably be the next "easiest" to receive from your location ...

How much does height matter for our terrain?

It can matter A lot when you're in weak signal area beyond curvature of earth, or if you are more "within" coverage area but are dealing with terrain obstructions, but you may need to get antenna much higher than just 20 or 30 FT higher to make enough "difference" ....

I could conceivably move my antenna another 20 - 30 feet higher. What's the chance that would be worth the effort?

It might do wonders in this case , no way to know really, without trying it ... You could add 20/30ft to the antenna height for your TVfool and see how the prediction changes, although keep in mind that's just a "prediction", it's possible things could turn out a bit better(or worse) in the real world ....

Thanks also for your comment on the "permanent" / eventual home for these stations. I read where many were expected to "relocate" back to VHF after the analog goes away, but the PDF I found shows most of the OH stations staying UHF. WLIO is an exception, and I think I saw one Columbus station that was staying VHF. I do get the Lima area stations - WLIO-DT, 8.1 et al very clear, doesn't seem to matter where the antenna is pointed.

Other than any new stations or LP DTV stations that might end up on VHF, WLIO-DT 8 and WSYX-DT 13(columbus) are probably the two VHF digitals you'd get(or have some sort of a shot at concerning the latter) without enhanced signal propagation ("dx") .... These would probably be the ones you'd see most often via the latter :

WCPO-DT 10 (ABC HD) Cincinnati (staying on 10 after analog shut off)
WKRC-DT (CBS HD cincinnati (now on 31, moving to 12 after analog shut off)
WJW-DT Cleveland (Currently on 31, moving to 8 after analog shut off)
WMFD-DT Mansfield (currently on 12, staying on 12)
WOIO-DT Cleveland (currently on 10, staying on 10)
WLMB-DT Toledo (currently on 5, staying on 5 - only one that's lo-VHF)
WTOL-DT Toledo (currently on 17, moving to 11 after analog shut off)
WTVG-DT Toledo (currently on 19, moving to 13 after analog shut off)
WJBK-DT Detroit (currently on 58, moving to 7 after analog shut off)
WISH-DT Indy (currently on 9, staying on 9)
WTHR-DT Indy (currently on 46, moving to 13)
WLFI-DT Layfayette, IN ( currently on 11, staying on 11)

There a few more you'd probably see fairly often as well, such as WDKY-DT 4 Lexington, KY, WOOD-DT 7 (currently on 7/staying there) ... Grand rapids, MI ...

bari_old_dad

01-17-08, 07:45 PM

What about Dayton? I would have thought after WTLW/WLIO and probably WBGU digitals, the Dayton stations would probably be the next "easiest" to receive from your location ...
...

I'm getting Dayton CBS pretty good now (choppy last night though) and WDTN is one of the most reliable after Lima and Bowling Green (WBGU). The Fox and ABC affiliates in Dayton are right at the edge . . . my reveiver will lock on every now and then, but the reception is generally bad - 40 - 50 % signal strength, versus WDTN which gets into the 80's and WHIO in the high 60s and 70's.

The main reason I'd aim to get the Columbus CBS (WBTN I think) is for Browns coverage. When Bengals and Browns conflict, WHIO usually carries Cinci and Columbus carries the Cleveland game. I'm a Cleveland native so I have an excuse for being a Browns fan.:o

A good solid Fox affiliate would be great. Superbowl, and other NFC games. I watch a few of their series too. WTTE - Columbus is fairly good, but it was borderline unwatchable last night.

Thanks for your advice. I looked at the tower vs. my current install again tonight and it must be twice as high as my chimney. Maybe I can get it up there without falling to my death . . . definitely would be nice to get a bucket truck. The Satellite guys want $50 just to show up, and $$ an hour after that.

Nitewatchman

01-17-08, 08:57 PM

Maybe I can get it up there without falling to my death . . .

Defintely only do it if you can do it safely! That usually means a climbing harness, good physcial condition, and defintely not on a Steel tower that is "rusted into" or anything that could could fall apart with your weight with some added "wind stresses" ... If you aren't comfortable with that, defintely try to find/hire someone else to do it who is (and is in the business of doing such things such that they are properly insured for it/etc) .....

My towers are such that one can easily wrap ones Limbs around the rungs or tower legs as necessary. and I actually find it "safer" and more convienient than climbing on the roof/etc, as they are steel towers(galavanized, quite heavy gauge steel vs. what I think they're making some of these out of these days, but still require painting and removal of surface rust/etc. ever 10 years). the BIG job is the "job" with a wire brush+painting them every 10 years or so(I don't "take them down" to do that, as it is good "exercise" after all) .... Any TV antennas I've messed with are easy, as they're light enough to be hauled up or down/etc. on a rope(don't want to do that on a "windy" day of course!), I've used/needed Gin pole for larger HF ham antennas, though ....

jimp2244

01-18-08, 07:49 AM

I'm a Cleveland native so I have an excuse for being a Browns fan.:oThere is no excuse for being a Browns fan :)

Jon

01-18-08, 05:28 PM

It appears channel 16 has there Tv Guide operational once again. :D

It appears they've had multiple equipment failures since the 1st of the year (bad luck). Oh well, I hope there equipment stays operational for a while.

Thanks for the info dtv insider ;)

John

bari_old_dad

01-24-08, 11:49 AM

hall

01-24-08, 12:55 PM

Also, for a distant (60+ miles) station, is it normal to see rapid and large changes in signal strength OTA, as in as low as 0 to more than 60? I think others have indicated that this means "multipath", but that's not something I'm experienced with.... I do know in my case that the signal "number" is either rock-solid or it fluctuates 1-2 points.

jimp2244

01-24-08, 01:12 PM

When it gets cold, I think I see a general drop in signal strengths. Could this be my preamp? I know transistors don't necessarily behave the same in the cold.

Or, maybe their transmission equipment is affected?

Denser air, less moisture, Canadian Geese . . . ?

Also, for a distant (60+ miles) station, is it normal to see rapid and large changes in signal strength OTA, as in as low as 0 to more than 60? Is this just the nature of radio waves refracting through the troposphere & so I'm stuck with it?When it gets colder/dryer tropospheric conditions may be not as favorable which would affect your reception of distant signals... Here is a map of realtime VHF propagation (http://www.mountainlake.k12.mn.us/ham/aprs/path.cgi?map=na) (not UHF but still can give a decent idea of what things are like right now). If you monitor the map from day to day or even hour to hour you can see changes occurring all the time.

For closer stations which you don't rely on the edge diffraction or tropospheric scatter you may not see a drop in signal strength. If you look at the tvfool.com list of channels you can receive, you'll see "path" column which tells you how you're likely receiving the signal:

LOS: Line-of-sight
1Edge: Single edge diffraction
2Edge: Double edge diffraction
Tropo: Tropospheric scatter

It seems that the cold/dry months of winter are generally not very good for receiving distant signals, but if you are able to get a good enough signal when conditions aren't as favorable, such as generally the case this time of year, then when it gets warmer/more moist they will most likely only get stronger.

jimp2244

01-24-08, 01:17 PM

I think others have indicated that this means "multipath", but that's not something I'm experienced with.... I do know in my case that the signal "number" is either rock-solid or it fluctuates 1-2 points.Multipath issues are probably less likely to occur with distant signals than strong local ones. A strong local signal may hit your antenna while a reflection off of some object (hill, metal building, etc.) may hit the antenna just a bit later, causing ghosting on analog channels and occasional or frequent drop-outs on digital. A distant signal is less likely to have a strong enough reflection to "bounce back" and hit the antenna.

If bari_old_dad's problems are with distant signals, it is most likely because of changing conditions which do not allow the signals to travel as far. It may also be worth it to check the cable runs, as things contract and expand with the changing temperatures could cause a problem in the connectors, but this is probably less likely.

Nitewatchman

01-24-08, 04:26 PM

See here, especially the part(s) under "refraction, refraction, refraction" :

http://www.dxfm.com/Content/propagation.htm

Update:

The "signal meters" on most of our receivers don't actually look at signal strength, or the RF signal itself, even if it is labeled "signal strength" right on screen (There are some exceptions, for instance if you have a AGC reading on your receiver it is looking at something that is actually involving the actual "RF" signal) ... Most of them are looking at BER (bit error rate), and basically tell you how "easy" it is for the digital data to be decoded and are best thought of as signal "quality" meters .... They can show fairly high readings when a relatively weak signal is present, and they can also show low/bouncing around or No reading when multipath or interference that is not correctable by receiver is present, even if the desired signal strength is actually VERY strong ....

In the case when the signal is very "clean" and "interference free" however (and/or multipath is correctable by receiver), and the actual signal strength is within 10db or so of what is required for DTV reception, then these meters can be somewhat of an indication of how "strong" the signal is, and that very well may be the case to some extent in bari_dad's situation ... Along the lines of jimp2244's comments and the info at link above, rapid fading is a common occurance for signals received via refraction("diffraction") beyond curvature of the earth .... With the distances involved in this case, getting receive antenna higher *could* be very benefical, but it's hard to say HOW much higher you'd need to go ... 10~20 feet might do wonders, but it may be more likely you'll need more like 100~300 Feet more height in order to have any luck/shot at reliable reception when the atmosphere is dry/dew points are low and the "Refractive" cabability of the "air" to bend the signals beyond curvature of earth is at its worst ..... Generally speaking, because of the longer wavelengths involved and larger "capture area" of VHF antennas, VHF signals can often be received reliably from a bit farther distance beyond curvature of earth(or in situations when terrain blockage is "severe enough" at receive location) than is the case with UHF ....

If Hall can adjust his antenna/"move it" to a posistion so he gets a reading of "0" on his "signal meter" from a particular station, or one that bounces around like crazy, It doesn't mean the signal strength is "0", it more likely means the receiver can't correct for issues such as multipath (but interference can cause the same thing to happen -- uncorrectable multipath, or any sort of interference or for that matter anything besides the "desired" 8VSB signal is all just seen as "extra noise" by the receiver)..... As Jimp2244 said, multipath is directly "visable" via analog OTA as ghosts, I think nearly everyone who has used analog OTA has "seen it" there, but one needs a spectrum analayzer to analyze the 8VSB waveform and "see" multipath on DTV ....

bari_old_dad

01-24-08, 10:03 PM

Thanks, gents, for all these interesting insights into how this technology works. I was suspicious of that signal strength meter on the TV . . . thanks for clearing that up.

Do you think I would be able to see any of the waveforms using a Fluke "Scopemeter"? Not sure if the one I could borrow will cover into the megahertz though . . . we don't have any signals like this at work.

Nitewatchman

01-25-08, 05:47 AM

Do you think I would be able to see any of the waveforms using a Fluke "Scopemeter"? Not sure if the one I could borrow will cover into the megahertz though . . .

don't know If you could make any use of one of those or not to measure/analyze DTV signals, I suppose it depends on the "specs" involved for the ones they have ...

They're both a few years old, but There's some good info on using spectrum analyzer for off air DTV signals in the articles at following links as well as reviews on several models in the first link :

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/spectrum.html

And in "Analyzing Off-Air Digital TV (8VSB) Signal Reception" section of following article :

http://www.sencore.com/newsletter/Apr03/Spectrum/spectrum.htm

There is also pretty good write up along with a sales pitch for a signal analyzer of sorts that is designed for DTV signals. However, I don't think the product mentioned is a full fledged "spectrum analyzer", but it's "flatness" display may be adequete enough to be a good tool for indication of multipath :

http://www.sencore.com/newsletter/Nov03/HDTV_files/HDTV.htm

Of course, most of us get by without anything like that, even in situations like yours I think it is often possible to get a good idea of what is "going on" without knowing exactly what the signal levels are, especially with tools available such as TVfool ....

AND at present, with the analogs are on the air, we can see what is going on with those right "on screen", that can be *very* useful as well ...

Also, while you'll have no way of knowing this "for sure" in most circumstances, nevertheless, If you have a "clean" interference/multipath free signal that is consistantly above what is needed for a lock, -- YOu can make use of any DTV receiver and adding additional attenuation in feedline(attenuators, splitters/etc), along with estimating factors such as the "non-additional" attenuatoion in feedline between antenna+receiver, preamp NF/gain, antenna gain, and seeing how much "additional attenuation" it takes to "lose a signal lock" reception -- you can sometimes get a good idea of how strong the signals actually are at receiver input, and how well your antenna is working. As, the threshold for DTV reception for all DTV receivers is right at about 16db S/N, that "figure" doesn't really vary among DTV receivers .. At input of receiver, the actual minimum signal level required for DTV reception varies a bit+some receivers have better front ends than others, but the minimum signal level required at receiver input is going to be about -83~-89dbm or so, -89dbm being about the minimum possible if you're using a low noise preamp (~1db NF) ....

I've found that sort of info along with using info on your antenna's gain+preamp "specs" and what you're actually getting "reception wise"(including for analog reception) vs. what tools such as TVfool(or even to some extent FCC contour maps) predict can give you a good idea of how well antenna is working and what *may* be possible regarding room for improvement without the need for expensive test equipment .....

Oh, one thing some folks seem to get confused about concerning TVfool --- *do* note that the info you get for your location for Power (KW_ERP) takes into account directional transmit antenna patterns used by some stations ...

Anyhow, I plugged in coordinates you gave earlier for your location into TV fool and looked at the results ... I tried 20ft and 60ft receive antenna height at 84.2W, 40.55N ...

It's just a guess, really, but also taking into account your reports of what you're currently getting(from dayton, but also from the Ft. Wayne stations your getting), with your current setup, I suspect with a little more antenna height you *defintely* have a good shot at achieving reliable reception of all Dayton digitals *except* for WBDT-DT (Cw) (the LP on 18 in Lima prbably being the main problem there, but WBDT-DT at 35KW ERP doesn't help either) .... And, I suspect adding more height vs. what you're currrently using (along with proper antenna aiming with rotor of course) is your best bet at improving things ....

Columbus doesn't look very promising to me, though. You never know, but I would guess you probably won't have much luck with achieving reliable reception of Columbus digitals unless you add a LOT more antenna height (as in 100FT or more) .... Even WSYX-DT 13 on VHF is probably a long shot, so, other than for "dx" or a few weak analog signals you probably wouldn't even need or want a VHF antenna ..

Basically, if you try plugging in 60FT for your antenna height in TVfool(and you put your antenna at that height on top of your 55foot tower), I suspect you've got a very good shot at achieving reliable, or at least mostly reliable reception for any of the stations that are predicted with signal levels of -115dbm or higher, especially those shown at -110dbm or higher ..... That would include All the Dayton stations except WBDT-DT (which at 35KW ERP has the lowest "full power" allocation of any UHF DTV station I know of, anywhere, and even worse is the co-channel issue for you with WLQP 18 Lima, which will only get worse if/when they get their digital up on 18 ) ...

while it *may* be possible for you to achieve reliable reception of some of the stations predicted below -115dbm as well, I suspect it's much less likely, and probably pretty much impossible(or close to it) regarding the stations that are listed as "tropo" ... For those, it's very likely the only way you'll be able to receive them is via enhanced signal propagation conditions (enhanced "tropo" scatter) ... But, it probably won't take much in the way of enhanced signal propagation for you to see them(suspect you'll see them quite often in spring/summer/fall months), and if you do get the antenna up on the tower, suspect you'll likely see those more often(difficult to say how often) than you do with the antenna where it is now ...

If it were me, and it's in good enough shape(not too rusted if it's metal/etc), I'd defintely be making use of that "old" 55ft tower you mentioned you have, although If I were doing the work, I certianly wouldn't be doing it NOW, or anytime soon, I'd wait until warmer weather ...

I don't know much about the MXU-59's actual performance or how it compares to other antennas .. If it were me and I already had your current antenna, I'd probably try it first on top of tower with the CM7777, but depending upon the results, It's possible I might also want to try a XG91 as well(or maybe even two of the stacked horizontally), as I suspect it might offer a few db more gain on than the MXU-59 gives you, which could make a "significant enough" difference in some cases ... and, That's probably about as good as you're going to get ... Personally, I'd probably add a VHF antenna of some sort as well, but that's just me as I like to "dx" when conditions allow it ....

NOte that TVfool lists several LP digital stations in your area which are not yet on the air (such as WLQP-LP/WLMO-LP and W51CZ Lima, W17AA celina(thinKTV translator), some of them with strong predicted signal levels .... They're on that list because they've received construction permits From FCC to build their digital stations, but they've yet to build them/get on the air with DTV ... HOpefully, they'll all make it on the air with digital, and hopefully at least some of them relatively soon .....

Also note that while the info as it pertains to the facilities the Dayton+columbus digital stations+WKOI-DT are currently using which "show up" via your TVfool plot are correct, the info on WANE-DT is not ... They're actually broadcasting on UHF channel 31, their original CP was for ch 4 ... .... I don't know the specifics about the other Ft. Wayne stations currently, but I can say the info on WNDY-DT, WTVG-DT, WLIO-DT, WTLW-DT, WBGU-DT and WTOL-DT, WINM-DT, WLMB-DT and WIPB-DT looks correct ....

The info on the Dayton, Columbus+Cincinnati area analog stations in the analog channel plot also are correct ....

gregarious119

02-04-08, 09:28 AM

Wow I guess that last post was kind of a show stopper.

Anyone catch the game in HD last night - I thought it looked pretty good.

I can't believe that Chevy and Ford both had commercials that weren't produced/aired in HD...talk about a waste of money.

jimp2244

02-04-08, 01:25 PM

I can't believe that Chevy and Ford both had commercials that weren't produced/aired in HD...talk about a waste of money.
I don't remember the specific commercials but maybe those were during one of the local commercial breaks? The networks provide most of the commercials (national breaks) but the local affiliates get commercial time as well (local breaks). These local commercials are very rarely if ever in HD (and would require that capability from the local station as well).

compunerd632

02-07-08, 01:02 PM

Hi, we just upgraded our Time Warner cable boxes to HD boxes. I really enjoyed finally being able to see HD stuff on our tv, but I realized that Time Warner does not carry the HD feed from WDTN (NBC). Unfortunately, our tv was bought before they were required to have ATSC tuners in them, so I can't connect an antenna to pick it up over the air. This really sucks because most of my favorite shows are on NBC and there isn't really anything I can do about it.

I thought I would ask people on here just for kicks: is there any way I could get WDTN-HD short of buying a new tv or getting rid of TWC?

hall

02-07-08, 01:37 PM

Buy a digital set-top receiver. They're pretty much impossible to find new (locally) though and even before ATSC tuners were common in TVs, they weren't easy to find in stores. I don't see any in the "for sale" area here at AVS... Try eBay.

Paul210

02-07-08, 02:24 PM

Definitely eBay...I just picked up another Samsung STB there a couple months ago. Your other option is to order one from one of the big box stores online but you'll probably pay more.

jimp2244

02-07-08, 03:42 PM

dtv insider

02-07-08, 04:21 PM

Paul210

02-07-08, 04:31 PM

The Samsung DTB-H260F is the one I have. Yes, it's a decent receiver. We're probably not supposed to be talking price here but I managed to land mine on eBay for around 50 less than what you're talking about, shipping included.

Nitewatchman

02-07-08, 04:47 PM

Around Christmastime, Best Buy Dayton mall had a couple of those Sammy's, If I recall correctly one was open box+marked down .... Probably not still there, but who knows .. I do know I must have just been "lucky" but everytime I've checked(which hasn't been that often) since 2002, at least one of the big box retailers in Dayton mall area have had 1 or 2 OTA only ATSC receivers/STB of various makes/models ...

Do keep in mind the current DVD or DVD/HDD recorders with ATSC receivers in them don't output HD, they are SD output only ... whether for recording or live viewing/monitoring, even though any I've seen have at least Component video outputs, some have HDMI output as well and some will upconvert SD to HD resolutions (which is still SD of course) ...

If SD digital(all these should be able to output either 16x9 or 4x3, letterbox 16x9 or "center cut" 16x9 to 4x3 as desired I believe) output is "OK" with you though, in addition to the current DVD or DVD/HDD recorders with ATSC receivers(about $150 up), the Gov't subsidized DTV converter boxes are starting to hit the shelves ... There's a report in hardware area of a Magnavox model already in some Walmart stores(I checked about a week ago and one store in West chester reported having them in stock), the price for it is just under $50, with one of the coupons that would make it about $9 + Tax ....

Note that until the "first round" funds for the coupons are used up (there are enough funds for 22 million coupons for the first round) All households in U.S.(including those with cable or satellite) are eligible to receive 2 $40 coupons (issued by Gov't) for use to purchase only the DTV(SD only) converter boxes, after those are gone, there is enough funds for about 11 million more coupons, but only OTA Only households are eligible for those .. Last I heard, a couple of weeks ago, about 4 million coupons had been applied for as of that time(The program started Jan 1), and I also heard they're going to start mailing them out in a couple of weeks, but only if stores in your area have the converters in stock(the coupons expire 90 days after they're mailed) ... Go here to find out about the coupons+how to apply (you can do so online or you can call) :

https://www.dtv2009.gov/

As for Ebay/etc, he might also want to check out the STB sypnosis thread in Hardware area, as there is a list of all the models of HD receivers (OTA, OTA+D*, OTA+E*/etc, discontinuted and otherwise) there which he might want to look for ...

-----------

Edit: Another possible option is a OTA HDTV 'tuner card' for PC - these come in internal (PCI,PCiE) and external (USB "stick") varieties, But, for viewing on anything other than your PC monitor, you'll probably want a HTPC hooked up to your HDTV in some fashion, otherwise if you already have a HTPC setup, it's probably the least expensive option ...

compunerd632

02-07-08, 07:25 PM

Thanks for the suggestions guys, but I think I'm just going to live with it. I'm currently living with my parents, but will be moving out soon and I will be buying my own equipment, so it's not really worth buying an additional converter box since they don't really care anyway. It took me a long time to convince them it was worth upgrading the cable boxes to utilize the hdtv in the first place. :rolleyes:

dtv insider

02-07-08, 08:51 PM

[

I

The DTV converter boxes are only to have r-f out (ch3/4) or analog video and left and right audio out. No digital audio or component video (rgb) out. I have heard some PTV stations had boxes and are testing them.

Nitewatchman

02-07-08, 09:56 PM

The DTV converter boxes are only to have r-f out (ch3/4) or analog video and left and right audio out. No digital audio or component video (rgb) out. I have heard some PTV stations had boxes and are testing them.

I believe some have been reported to have(or will have) S-video out in addition to Composite video(i.e. rca jack). Note: Component video is usually YPbPr (analog), or YCbCr (digital), the former is what is output even for HD from consumer STB's ....

Note: I did mess up in my last post where I said "SD digital output" .. I was trying to kill 2 birds with one stone, as I see I probably didn't say what I meant "right" .... regarding the "SD digital" part of it I was referring to digital HD broadcasts being converted from HD to SD, and that the boxes(nor the DVD recorders) won't output HD -- Of course, as you note the video output from those things are going to be analog via RF modulator(composite NTSC video), Composite or S-video output (or analog component video for that matter from the DVD recorders) .....

Anyway, You'll find several threads on the converter boxes in hardware area, including a couple that have already+recently been found "on shelves", here are links to a few of those threads :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990489

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=986114

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=980052

Unless it's extremely poor signals via analog cable or something, I doubt either the DVD recorder with ATSC receiver or these things would be perceived as all that much of an improvement vs. what you get with HD and over what a TW viewer would get from whatever WDTN or WBDT SD feed they're currently carrying ...

Although certianly SD component video *can*(key word being "can" not "will") look very good, and even SD video sourced from a "digital" signal *could* be better via S-video/Composite or even via RF than a poor noisy analog signal via cable, or a poor "ghosty/snowy" OTA analog reception .... And, if 16x9 SD is Letterboxed "into" either NTSC 4x3 or ATSC 4x3 480i/p video signal , it's almost 1/2 the vertical resolution of 16x9 SD w/o letterboxing ....

hall

02-08-08, 10:44 AM

Does anyone else notice low-volume with WRGT compared to other local stations ? When we watch shows on there, it seems we have to turn the volume up to say "32" to "34" vs "25" or so which is fine for most other stations.

bari_old_dad

02-08-08, 07:08 PM

Last night - I noticed the CBS affiliate in Ft Wayne (WANE) had "Without a Trace" in 16:9 1080i while WHIO was 1080i but 4:3. Were they having issues do you suppose? Maybe local affiliates pull different feeds depending on their contracts? Sorry if this is old news.

Nitewatchman

02-08-08, 07:40 PM

Last night - I noticed the CBS affiliate in Ft Wayne (WANE) had "Without a Trace" in 16:9 1080i while WHIO was 1080i but 4:3. Were they having issues do you suppose?

I didn't check or notice what they were doing last night but Probably an issue of some sort on their end. Could range from them accidently missing the "switch" to the HD feed after/before a commercial break/etc., to equipment issues/etc.

That sort of thing(especially just "missing" the switch to net HD feed) used to be an issue more frequently, when few of us were watching HD and oftentimes calling the station's newsroom # and politely asking for the HD often did the trick ... On several occasions involving WHIO, they even transferred me to their MCO or tech on duty and he fixed it while I was still on the phone, it of course helps if you have a 2nd network affilate as source so if they say "it's not in HD from CBS/etc", you can say "well, it's HD from WKRC Cincinnati"/etc .... I've had that happen before, then a "oh, Let me check" is heard over the line a moment before they switch to HD feed ......

That's probably still the way to go as well, although if they're having "issues" that prevent them from running HD, they will probably get tired of the phones "lighting up" real quick ....

Nowadays, though, with more+more of us watching HD, one might assume that they probably "know" fairly quickly if they've accidently "missed" a switch to HD feed ... ;)

Maybe local affiliates pull different feeds depending on their contracts? Sorry if this is old news.

Different stations use different feeds on occasion(or in case of Indiana stations for example when "indiana time" was in effect, the stations had to have the capability to time shift the East coast feed, otherwise you probably wouldn't "see" HD from them, as for one thing the local ad breaks wouldn't Match up" with the digital vs. analog station), but I don't think in this case that would be an issue. In other words, in this case it likely should have been HD unless they were having some sort of problem/some sort of issue prevented them from airing HD ...

I know they've had some flooding issues in Northern portions of WHIO viewing area, at present most stations have to drop to SD in order to insert/key in local graphics -- However, WHIO-DT has in the past shown the capability to insert such local graphics "into" the HD feed(unfortunetly oftentimes that involves distorting AR by just "squeezing in" some of the stuff at bottom), but if there was coverage like that or break-ins for local news coverage/etc, "going on" during primetime I suppose it's possible something like that may have been involved ...

ryan2112

02-12-08, 09:49 PM

insignia has a new $59.99 box that will tune in DTV and output only in analog. That would recieve wdtn-dt however it wouldn't really be HD.

bari_old_dad

02-16-08, 10:22 AM

Looking at moving my Antennacraft MXU59 and rotator to the top of a 55-60 foot tower from its current chimney mount. If one believes TVFool, I gain about 2 dB for most stations. In particular I am trying to improve the signal for WRGT and W??? (ABC affiliate in Dayton) who both sit about 40% signal strength per my receiver. I also have a CM7777 preamp mounted at the antenna.

As I will most likely hire someone to do this, I wonder if 1) I should spend another 70-80 bucks and get a better Yagi (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=AD-91XG), or 2) get another MXU59 to tandem with the existing one.

Any thoughts?

Nitewatchman

02-17-08, 01:42 PM

Looking at moving my Antennacraft MXU59 and rotator to the top of a 55-60 foot tower from its current chimney mount. If one believes TVFool, I gain about 2 dB for most stations.

Sounds like a good plan --- Tvfool does a great job, but can't account for everything, such as attenuation of signal by trees, nearby buildings/etc -- so, Just a wild guess, but my guess would be getting antenna as high as your planning may help more than TVfool might indicate ...

As I will most likely hire someone to do this, I wonder if 1) I should spend another 70-80 bucks and get a better Yagi (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=AD-91XG), or 2) get another MXU59 to tandem with the existing one.

That or something similar sounds like a good plan to me. While it's really usually true for everyone, it's especially true in your situation that you "can't have too much antenna" ....

I wish I knew where some specs were for the MXU59 so we could compare to XG91 or other various antennas specs as shown on sites such as http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html ... As I really don't know how much (if any) more performance you'd get out of XG91 vs. the MXU59 ...

Antennas such as CM4228 8-bay bowtie might be something you might want to think about as well.

I don't think you could really go wrong with 1 or 2 XG91's, though ....

If you do end up stacking them -- I'd definitely test the rig down near the ground, first -- as you probably know, there are several issues of importance when stacking antennas into an array for increased directivity/Gain .... such as Spacing, and if you use coax, exactly equal lengths of it before combiner, and any baluns on the two antennas must be in phase with each other ..... You might want to PM avsforum members Max_HD and CPcat for advice, and there's another fellow out in CA who has a h-stack of 2 XG91's you might want to talk to (I think his handle on AVSforum is Calavaras - but I might have spelled that wrong) ...

Also, it's an older article(but still a good one) There is an excellent article on stacking antennas here you might want to read through :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/stackluge.html

Of course, another thing to think about when someone else is going to be installing antenna for you+you are planning on it being up there for a long time in working order is weather/waterproofing ... Whatever I end up using in the way of "waterproof connectors"/etc, I alllways go to the extra step of gunking it up with Coax-seal -- In my experience this stuff works great! RS used to sell a nice size roll of it for a couple of bucks, but last I checked, my local RS stores didn't have it anymore ... So here is their main website :

http://www.coaxseal.com/

Hope some of that helps!

clonepilot99

02-17-08, 01:49 PM

Paul210

02-17-08, 02:24 PM

I'm still duking it out with a friend's new Sony TV. I've located WHIO-DT on 91.2 and 91.22. It didn't find it on a channel scan but once I manually entered them, it remembers they're there. It still won't remap to 7.1 and 7.2. Does anyone know the ACTUAL channel number for WCET 48.1 and 48.2 on TWC QAM? I think that's the only others we're missing. The funny thing is the el-cheapo 19" Magnavox in her bedroom picked up everything it's suppose to and remapped them all without a hitch. Well, I guess that's not so funny considering the price difference.

Nitewatchman

02-17-08, 03:14 PM

I have a Insignia HD monitor and a RCA ANT103 antenna and can't pick up any of the local HD channels. AntennaWeb says I'm 3 miles or less from all the antennas. Any ideas on how to pick up the channels? Thanks

If it's a "HD monitor" that usually means it doesn't have a Over the air(OTA) digital tuner, in which case you'll need an option such as an external HD receiver/STB to hook up to it in order to receive and view HD from OTA HD and digital(DTV) broadcasts, such as the Samsung model mentioned previously.

You should have the info available to tell you, but What's the model # of your Insignia? We may be able to look it up and tell if it has a ATSC (digital OTA) receiver in it or not.

jimp2244

02-17-08, 03:15 PM

I have a Insignia HD monitor and a RCA ANT103 antenna and can't pick up any of the local HD channels. AntennaWeb says I'm 3 miles or less from all the antennas. Any ideas on how to pick up the channels? Thanks

If it is truly an "HD monitor" then you will need a separate ATSC tuner in order to receive the HD channels. HD monitor means it can display HD but does not include an ATSC tuner, which is required to receive digital channels over the air.

You would need something like this to tune the digital channels:

Amazon.com has the Samsung DTBH260F HDTV Terrestrial Receiver for $169 shipped. You might be able to find something cheaper but I have that box and it works well.

jimp2244

02-17-08, 03:15 PM

Wow Jeff sorry we've been stepping on each others' toes lately :)

Nitewatchman

02-17-08, 03:19 PM

^ LOL. Naw, We just posted at the "same time" ... I was going to delete mine since we both said the same thing but guess I'll leave it now ...

clonepilot99

02-17-08, 03:31 PM

It's a NS-LCD15. I'm pretty sure it has an ATSC tuner built in.

Nitewatchman

02-17-08, 04:16 PM

It's a NS-LCD15. I'm pretty sure it has an ATSC tuner built in.

Yep, looks like it. Here are a couple of ideas :

1). I don't know how your specific model HDTV works in this regard, but Oftentimes, equipment is set when you purchase it to scan "cable" frequencies only - while this will often find analog OTA VHF and UHF signals(but will usually show "weird" channel numbers for the UHF stations), but it often won't find the digital signals especially UHF ones(all Dayton digital/HD stations transmit on UHF) ... So, make sure you are scanning for "antenna" or "off air" instead of "cable", usually that's selectable via a user selectable menu option, or you tell it whether you have an antenna or cable when you "scan" for channels ...

#2). if it isn't #1, check to make sure antenna is hooked up properly, and you may need to adjust antenna posistioning/placement(or the 12 posistion "fine tuning" control) in order to achieve better results. Adjusting your antenna for best results for reception of Dayton UHF analog stations 16,22,26, 40 (LP), 45 *may* help with this ... If there is a substantial amount of "snow" or "fuzz" or "ghosts", this might explain why your set hasn't "found" any digital/HD broadcast signals yet -- although, as close as you are, the signals really should be very, very strong - so, *IF* it is a reception problem, Multipath(shows up as ghosts on analog - although note that multipath is often a very frequency specific issue, and just because you don't see many "ghosts" on say, analog Channel 45 doesn't mean multipath isn't causing problems on Channel 30, where Dayton's fox digital station actually transmits ) the digital receiver can't correct is probably the most likely culprit and can be a problem issue even when the signals are actually very strong ... Adjusting antenna+placing it in a "better spot" for reception might help greatly with this ...

I don't know if that set has any sort of "signal meter" and what manual tuning procedures you can use to aid with adjustment of antenna for best results of digital/HD reception, if it does allow that(some sets don't and only allow "autoscans"), you may need/be able to tune to or individually "scan" the individual physical channel the digital stations are actually transmitting on(for dayton currently those are 18,30,41,50,51,58) and look at the meter+adjust antenna for best results .... Note that you can't receive the virtual channel remapping info which we usually use to "tune to" the digital/HD broadcasts (which "remaps" the stations to the channel numbers we are used to from their analog stations, for dayton 2,7,16,22,26,45, to channel numbers like 2.1, 7.1, 16.6, 22.1/etc) until AFTER you've acheived a signal lock on each particular station's signal ...

Hope some of that helps, let us know how it goes ....

buckeye1010

02-17-08, 04:39 PM

Of course, another thing to think about when someone else is going to be installing antenna for you+you are planning on it being up there for a long time in working order is weather/waterproofing ... Whatever I end up using in the way of "waterproof connectors"/etc, I alllways go to the extra step of gunking it up with Coax-seal -- In my experience this stuff works great! RS used to sell a nice size roll of it for a couple of bucks, but last I checked, my local RS stores didn't have it anymore ... So here is their main website :

http://www.coaxseal.com/

Hope some of that helps!

You can buy Coax-Seal at Parts Express in Miamisburg.

I love the stuff!

clonepilot99

02-17-08, 04:59 PM

I had to tune the actual digital stations. Its working great now. Thanks for the help.

dtv insider

02-18-08, 11:11 AM

You can buy Coax-Seal at Parts Express in Miamisburg.

I love the stuff!

I believe Parts Express is in Springboro.

hall

02-18-08, 02:30 PM

Yes, they are in Springboro, not Miamisburg.

bari_old_dad

02-18-08, 08:10 PM

I wish I knew where some specs were for the MXU59 so we could compare to XG91 or other various antennas specs as shown on sites such as http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html ... As I really don't know how much (if any) more performance you'd get out of XG91 vs. the MXU59 ...
<snip>
I attached a GIF of Antennacraft's PDF for the MXU59. They claim a dB gain of 10.7, which is curiously only a few tenths more than their next model down (MXU47).

Meanwhile the XG91 claims dB gain in the mid teens. I remember reading where sometimes manufacturers overstate the gain. Is the XG91 that much better do you suppose?

In terms of weather resistance - any reason to be concerned about the XG91 in Ohio's climate?

Nitewatchman

02-18-08, 11:17 PM

Meanwhile the XG91 claims dB gain in the mid teens.

That's probably about right, It's probably about 15dbi average across the entire UHF band. Note the Gain Charts at the link I provided earlier(also below) for various antennas are from an independant study using Antenna modelling software, not from manufactuers claims :

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html

Is the XG91 that much better do you suppose?

As with any broadband UHF antenna, it's performance varies across the band but saying a XG91 should offer about 15db gain as an "average" is probably about right.

In terms of weather resistance - any reason to be concerned about the XG91 in Ohio's climate?

FWIW, time will tell, but I've had a XG91 up for 3 1/2 years now and sor far its holding up fine. You never know, but again FWIW, I wouldn't put an antenna up if I didn't think it would stay up there at least 15 years w/o it being likely that there would be any "problems" ....

that being said, I don't know if they've made any changes to it in the 3 1/2 years I've had mine, but It's certianly not what I would call anything near being "ruggedly designed". I'd probably even call it "seemingly" a bit flimsy, but I think for the most part it really shouldn't matter as it is a UHF yagi/corner reflector - And, Given the wavelengths/element length involved, it's not like Ice+Wind loading is going to make it bend/break/etc ..... I suppose my only concern about it regarding longevity is the way the reflectors attach to the boom. Although, that's not really all that much of a concern for me as if they do happen to fall off, I expect it would be unlikely they would be damaged and it would be easy to fix(of course the antenna would have to come down for such repairs) or design a more "rugged" solution to attach them if one wanted .... I thought about making some improvements in that regard before installing mine, but decided it might interesting to see how it turned out "as is" .... So far, so good ...

ChiefIllinifan

02-19-08, 08:22 PM

I just found this forum today and I'm glad to see so many other guys from Beavercreek frequent this thread.

I dumped TW a month ago and signed up with Dish. I'm getting AT250, Ultimate HD, Cinemax, Starz and locals. I have a 46" Samsung HL-S4676S DLP TV (720p) hooked up to a ViP 722 HD DVR with a set of Radio Shack rabbit ears for OTA. I'd include the link, but I'm a new guy and they won't let me until I post 3 times. The 722 shares its signal with an ancient Magnavox TV/VCR combo in the kitchen. I also have a 622 hooked up to 29" Sylvania TV/VCR/DVD combo that shares its signal with a 9" SD TV in the guest room.

I am ~10 miles from the Dayton antenna farm and generally get good "signal strength". Today at lunch, both WRGT OTA channels were varying from 0 to 90 on the Dish signal meter. What's up with that? Occasionally, I'll get a dropped signal for a second, but it doesn't last. Any idea what's going on?

I'm also willing to try a better antenna, but would like to exhaust indoor options before trying to put something in my attic or on my roof. Suggestions?

Nitewatchman

02-22-08, 01:12 AM

Today at lunch, both WRGT OTA channels were varying from 0 to 90 on the Dish signal meter. What's up with that? Occasionally, I'll get a dropped signal for a second, but it doesn't last. Any idea what's going on?

Probably Multipath uncorrectable by receiver.

I'm also willing to try a better antenna, but would like to exhaust indoor options before trying to put something in my attic or on my roof. Suggestions?

Move antenna to a better spot for reception, use an antenna with better directivity, such as a silver sensor, or even better a directional outdoor UHF antenna of conventional design (you can put those indoors as well, such as in attic, but outdoors is better) ...

ChiefIllinifan

02-22-08, 08:33 AM

I was a little worried I killed this thread...thanks for the reply.

Since I posted, I went to RS and got a bowtie antenna and played around with where to position it. I'm now getting everything from the Dayton antenna farm at 98-100 signal strength (according to the on-screen Dish meter). WRGT is now at a solid 85 and I'm getting the Trinity Broadcasting suite of channels on 43 from Richmond, IN at a consistent 75.

jimp2244

02-22-08, 09:59 AM

ChiefIllinifan

02-22-08, 10:50 AM

It is a combo from Radio Shack. Rabbit ears with a loop.

ChiefIllinifan

02-22-08, 10:58 AM

jimp2244

02-22-08, 11:49 AM

Now that I have 3 posts, I can link to the ones I have.

Rabbit Ears (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103077&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&pg=1&searchSort=TRUE&y=10&retainProdsInSession=1&x=7&s=A-StorePrice-RSK&parentPage=family)

Bowtie (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062017&cp=2032057.2032187.2032189.2032204&pg=1&searchSort=TRUE&y=7&retainProdsInSession=1&x=9&s=A-StorePrice-RSK&parentPage=family)

The bowtie works much better for me. I now get all the signals that both Antenna Web and TV Fool say I should get with a set top antenna. The next set of stations is almost 50 miles away and I would need to upgrade to a "medium gain" antenna. Just in case I get motivated to try it, what's a good "medium gain" antenna? Does the silver sensor fall in that category?

I'm assuming you are talking about Cincinnati stations... If so you'll probably need something outdoors, and best bet is probably VHF/UHF combo antenna, because one Cincinnati digital (WCPO-DT 10) is currently on VHF, and another (WKRC-DT) will be moving to VHF next February.

The silver sensor is a nice indoor antenna, but its performance on VHF is not very good. From Beavercreek I doubt you'll have much luck with an indoor antenna for Cincinnati stations, but it can't hurt to try.

Keep in mind that broadcast TV was designed for outdoor antenna reception, and while indoor antennas may work well in many cases, especially close to towers, it is not something to always count on. Just like you wouldn't put a satellite dish indoors...

ChiefIllinifan

02-22-08, 12:05 PM

jimp2244

02-22-08, 01:03 PM

So let me ask the practical question now:

Why would I want to be able to pull in all the Cincinnati OTA channels? That is, apart from the fact that we live in America and more is always better. I get ABC, NBC, CBS, Fox, CW, PBS and the Trinity stations now.

I'm thinking the answer has to be something to do with sports programming and the possiblity that I might be able to get different games, but is that true? What am I missing?

There are several reasons. Whether or not it's worth it to you is up to you.

1. MyNetworkTV in HD
Cincinnati has it on WSTR-DT 64-1. Dayton does not (has 45-2 MyNet SD). Whether or not you care about MyNet is another story, although they do often have some good HD movies.

2. Different sports events
During the NFL season, there are many times when the Dayton and Cincinnati CBS and FOX affiliates show different games. Cincinnati stations are subject to blackout rules when the Bengals play at home (if Bengals are at home on CBS, local FOX station can't show a game at the same time). This often leads to the affiliates carrying different games. To see some examples, do a search in the Cincinnati, OH thread for "NFL Week" and you should find my weekly posts which outline the games each station shows (I include both Dayton and Cincinnati affiliates).

During March madness, Dayton and Cincinnati CBS affiliates may show different games. As purely anecdotal evidence, I've generally noticed that Dayton is more "Buckeye Country" while Cincinnati is more likely to show other games at times.

UC and/or Xavier games.

There are plenty of other times this comes in handy for sports as well, but the above three examples are the biggest, I think.

3. Redundancy
If you are watching The Office on WDTN-DT, and WDTN has some sort of technical problem, or they do not have the show in HD because of weather graphics or forgetting to "flip the switch," you can flip over to WLWT-DT in Cincinnati and continue to watch. This also comes in handy, say if you want to watch a CBS show, but WHIO-DT pre-empts it for a UD basketball game; in that case you could flip to WKRC-DT and watch your CBS show.

There are also some low power analog stations in Cincinnati that will presumably go digital within a year or two. They would be harder for you to receive but they do have good content from time to time.

That's about all I can think of right now. There may be other reasons as well (watch Cincinnati news from time to time?). I guess you just have to decide if you're happy the way things are or if any of that entices you.

jimp2244

02-22-08, 01:13 PM

Went ahead and did a search for you. Here is an example (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12532486#post12532486)of one of the better NFL weeks for OTA:

Sunday Day Games:

1pm CBS (12 WKRC, 7 WHIO) Cleveland at Cincinnati
Greg Gumbel, Dan Dierdorf

1pm FOX (45 WRGT) Green Bay at Chicago*
Joe Buck, Troy Aikman, Pam Oliver

4pm CBS (12 WKRC) Baltimore at Seattle (NOT HD)
Bill Macatee, Steve Beuerlein

4pm CBS (7 WHIO) Miami at New England*
Jim Nantz, Phil Simms

4pm FOX (19 WXIX) Tampa Bay at San Francisco
Dick Stockton, Brian Baldinger

Sunday Night Football:

8:15pm NBC (5 WLWT, 2 WDTN) – Washington at Minnesota
Al Michaels, John Madden, Andrea Kramer

hall

02-22-08, 01:43 PM

browerjs picks up Cincy's stations from B'creek using a SS antenna, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12448772&highlight=beavercreek#post12448772

Caps18

02-24-08, 05:14 PM

jimp2244

02-24-08, 06:26 PM

I'm in B'creek, but my antenna is sitting on the floor getting the Dayton channels. I'm still working on moving into my house, and it has been too cold to go up into the attic, which is pretty high.

My question is, if I have two antennas, could I point them in different directions and then combine them with a simple 2:1 splitter(joiner?) in order to get the Cinci and Dayton channels?You could do that, and it might work. The problem with this is that even though you've got one antenna aimed at Dayton and one at Cincinnati, the Cincinnati antenna will still "pick up" the Dayton signals to some extent, and so then you could have two "instances" of the Dayton signals on your main line, which may interfere with each other. I would think that the more directional the antennas you choose are, the better chances of this working would be. You'll need a VHF/UHF combo for Cincinnati. A UHF only antenna is probably fine for Dayton since there are no VHF digital channels in Dayton at this point.

If you try this, and it doesn't work, then you could always just run double coax and put an A-B switch near each TV, to select Dayton or Cincinnati line ups. For DVRs, just choose one market for those, unless you have one that supports separate lineups for each tuner. If using home made DVR, BeyondTV supports separate channel lineups for each tuner (one can record Cincinnati while the other records Dayton). I am not sure about retail DVRs like TiVo.

Nitewatchman

02-24-08, 08:04 PM

I would think that the more directional the antennas you choose are, the better chances of this working would be.

You'd think so but not necessarily. While more signal will be rejected (especially in certian "nulls" in the antenna pattern which are going to vary as to "where they are" by make/model of antenna) Multipath can be *worse* off the "side" of a "more directional" antenna .... From Beavercreek, I might first try something like a CM4221, aimed at Cincinnati(and probably a seperate Hi-VHF antenna for WCPO with VHF/UHF combiner on "mast" to combine them onto same feedline), as it may be very possible to receive the Dayton signals OK with it aimed at Cincinnati (the weaker signals where you need the most gain from the antenna) ... Or, it also might be possible to aim the antenna "in between" Dayton and Cincinnati and get both .... The beamwidth of Some of the smaller/Medium size VHF/UHF combos *might* allow something like that to work as well.

It depends on where in beavercreek he is though ... Farther north, the less difference in heading there is between Dayton and Cincinnati, Near U.S. 35, it's about 42 degree difference .....

And, for the best chance for something like this to work, it would probably be best to get the antenna above the roof rather than below it. And, of course, possibility of reception of the Cincinnati stations/what will be needed to receive them is depenandant on many factors, mostly factors (such as possibility of terrain blockage issues) which are usually *very* location specific, which is why www.tvfool.com is such a great tool, as it takes issues such as terrain into account, and gives you good info that allows you to "spot" what might be causing a signal to be predicted to be weaker than what you might think it would be in any given case without knowing whether or not there is a "hill" in the way .... True, not too many hills in beavercreek area, but there is at least 1 I can think of that might be quite problematical .... Don't think there are too many houses around that "spot" however ....

Of course, Beavercreek is far enogh east that Columbus reception is a good possibility as well, probably defintely need a good outdoor antenna setup w/preamp for that, though .....

ChiefIllinifan

02-25-08, 06:24 PM

Ok. I'm happy with the set-up for the 46" Sammy DLP now.

However, the wife isn't thrilled with the 625 we have hooked to the 29" SDTV in the family room. She wants to know why she can't get the WHIO Weather station. There's a hook-up on the back of the 625. Can I get it to pull in the OTA channel for her?

hall

02-25-08, 08:07 PM

No, the 625 doesn't have an ATSC tuner.

Nitewatchman

02-25-08, 08:32 PM

If by SDTV he means "Standard Definition *digital* TV", it should have a internal ATSC(DTV/Digital OTA) tuner ... If so, he could hook antenna up to that .....

If he is using RF modulator (tuning his tv to ch 3/4 etc) on 625 for the connection from the 625 to hook it up to the TV, don't know about the 625, but my Dish 311 has a antenna in/passthrough, if you use it you just have to remember to press the tv/video button on the dish remote to "turn off" the RF modulator in the Dish receiver anythime you want the signals from the antenna to pass through to the tuner in the TV "unimpeded" ...

If by SDTV he means a "SD"(standard definition) analog TV (with only a NTSC analog tuner in it), then he might want to think about getting one of the DTV converter boxes for it (and applying for a coupon to make it $40 cheaper) ....

ChiefIllinifan

02-26-08, 05:25 PM

I should have been more specific. My bad.

Nitewatchman's second guess was the one that applies.

My guess is my wife will have to learn to live with the disappointment and get used to using the Weather Channel option available on channel 100 from Dish.

I'll buy her a HDTV one of these days instead of having her watch all of her stuff in SD. Her birthday is in July...hmmm.

Thanks for the help.

terryfoster

02-26-08, 05:38 PM

My guess is my wife will have to learn to live with the disappointment and get used to using the Weather Channel option available on channel 100 from Dish.

Or use the more convenient choice of looking up the weather on the internet....

ChiefIllinifan

02-26-08, 11:18 PM

Yeah, but that frustrates the h3ll out of her too. She uses weather.com and complains b/c it's slow. I tell her to use accuweather.com, but she won't. :rolleyes:

It's like Coke and Pepsi.

So are the choices for online mapping. She uses Mapquest and I use Google Maps. Both are wrong sometimes, but Mapquest is worse from our experience. ;)

Caps18

02-27-08, 01:18 PM

You'd think so but not necessarily. While more signal will be rejected (especially in certian "nulls" in the antenna pattern which are going to vary as to "where they are" by make/model of antenna) Multipath can be *worse* off the "side" of a "more directional" antenna .... From Beavercreek, I might first try something like a CM4221, aimed at Cincinnati(and probably a seperate Hi-VHF antenna for WCPO with VHF/UHF combiner on "mast" to combine them onto same feedline), as it may be very possible to receive the Dayton signals OK with it aimed at Cincinnati (the weaker signals where you need the most gain from the antenna) ... Or, it also might be possible to aim the antenna "in between" Dayton and Cincinnati and get both .... The beamwidth of Some of the smaller/Medium size VHF/UHF combos *might* allow something like that to work as well.

Of course, Beavercreek is far enogh east that Columbus reception is a good possibility as well, probably defintely need a good outdoor antenna setup w/preamp for that, though .....

I'll be waiting until it is warmer to do any testing, but the only station I'm looking to get is PBS14 in Cincinnati. But I don't want to compromise the quality or signal strength of the Dayton channels to do so.

I've also considered the fact that the digital streams would be getting combined, but I figure that since it is digital and the waves will hit both antennas at roughly the same time, it shouldn't be a problem. But theory and reality don't always work the same. Now I'm curious and might have to test it out tonight.

Nitewatchman

02-27-08, 04:21 PM

I'll be waiting until it is warmer to do any testing, but the only station I'm looking to get is PBS14 in Cincinnati.

WPTO-DT (thinkTV14) transmits on UHF channel 28.

It's possible to use a special antenna "joiner" which allows you to :

Use one antenna *only* for Channel 28 reception ...

use your other antenna for reception of all other channels (in this case the Dayton stations) ...

update:

However, the only "affordable" ones I know of are the CM Jointennas, and if I recall correctly they will "attenuate" signals within 5~6 channels or so of channel 28 on the antenna for "all the other channels", and allow a fair amount of signals to pass off the channel 28 antenna on about channels 25~31 or so ...

That might be a problem because WRGT-DT Dayton transmits on channel 30, WBDT analog is on 26 currently/digital on 18, but their digital will be moving to 26 post analog shut off ... Difficult to say whether it will be "enough of a problem" or not, regarding stations 2 channels away ... If the jointenna is "tuned" for channel 28, then channel 29 will be more effected than channel 30/etc ....

I've also considered the fact that the digital streams would be getting combined, but I figure that since it is digital and the waves will hit both antennas at roughly the same time, it shouldn't be a problem. But theory and reality don't always work the same. Now I'm curious and might have to test it out tonight.

As far as the OTA signal and "radio waves" go, RF is RF, and multipath echoes are multipath echoes. The datastreams are just digital information contained "within" the RF ("wireless") signal. While it's true DTV receivers can correct multipath is some situations and in a sense make the multipath echoes "usable", in cases they can't, and multipath uncorrectable by receiver is just seen as "noise" by the receiver.

The signal modulation used with our system of DTV is 8-VSB (8 level vestigal sideband), .... While we often refer to 8-VSB as a "digital" signal modulation(because of the digital info it contains, and the use of trellis coding and FEC for robust transmission/reception), the way it "works" as it is transmitted and travelling "as radio waves" is no different than any other wireless transmission ... It's not something I can really think of as either "analog" or digital, and in a very basic sense, it works the the same way as photons that are "transmitted" by the sun and received by our eyes (hopefully not "directly") ;) ...

Nitewatchman

02-28-08, 07:49 PM

FCC recently required stations to file a "DTV Transition Status report" (FCC form 387) ... All of them are in for stations in our area now, Follows is a summary of The info in the Dayton market stations' 387 forms. Of course, appreciate any corrections/improvements/suggestions/comments/questions etc anyone might have about any of this.

Note #1 :The forms can be updated when needed regarding certain specifics, so I suppose one could think of some of this as a bit "tentative", especially perhaps the stations in section (b) and (c), I would not think it likely there would be any changes regarding stations in section (a).

Note #2: I'll post a separate post for Lima, I put info for WBGU Bowling Green in there as well. For those interested, I also posted info on the Cincinnati stations in the Cincinnati thread.

Note #3: There were some "exhibits" attached to certain forms that were not publicly available for download from a "link" on the form, so I'm not sure what those exhibits might say. While there is probably not anything "unusual", then again - as one example, WBGU bowling green(currently out-of-core digital 56, analog 27, moving digital to 27) selected on the form that they "planned on providing full analog service until the transition date (2/17/09) ... However, in an exhibit provided with the form, they said if they're plans for some new equipment(new mask filter/etc) work out on the timeline they expect, they're current plans are to Discontinue analog service early, by September 2008. Note: In *some* circumstances, FCC is allowing early analog shut off(or reductions in analog or digital power or service), or in some cases if stations doesn't cause interference to other stations, stations which are moving may be allowed to remain on their current DTV channel for a time post transition ...

Note #4 : sorry this isn't as "short" as I intended it to be, but I found some of the info difficult to accurately summarize in a "short" manner, especially involving stations in sections (B) and (C), which I'd think, if there are any changes to their current Plans "as summarized", it might involve one or some of those ....

Ok, First -- ALL of the Dayton stations currently indicate they are going to continue to provide full analog service until transition date -- Which means they don't plan on reducing analog service in any shape or forum before 2/17/09, and it means they will be shutting down their analogs, sometime on 2/17/09 before 11:59PM EST ...

A). Stations which are already operating their fully authorized, final, DTV post-transition facility - All they have to do is shut the analog transmitter off sometime on 2/17/09 before 11:59 PM EST ....

WDTN-DT 50

WKEF-DT 51

WRGT-DT 30

WHIO-DT 41

-------------------------------------------------------------

B). Stations which will be moving to different channel allocations post transition :

WPTD - Currently analog 16, digital 58(out of core) - Moving digital to 16 post-transition :

Say they expect to file for a CP (construction permit) for their post-transition facility on 16 on or around 3/18/08. They say they expect they will be ready to provide full post-transistion digital service by the transition date.

It says they will be using the current, top mounted transmit antenna(currently used for analog 16) for post-transition digital service, and that they will be modifying their "during the transition"(currently used on ch 58) digital transmitter for post-transition service. In order to do that, it says they will need to operate the current channel 58 digital facility at reduced power for a period of around 30 days before analog shut off (2/17/09.)

A detailed description of their post-transition facility plans was attached to the form as "exhibit 2" and is available here (requires a PDF reader(acrobat/etc) to access this) :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=619536

WBDT - Currently analog 26, digital 18 - Moving digital to 18 post-transition :

Say they will continue to provide full analog service until 2/17/09, and that they will be ready for the transition on 2/17/09.

Say they will be receiving all the equipment necessary for the digital's move to channel 26 by August 2008.

Say they are converting their analog transmitter to digital, and will have a portion of their transmitter converted by November 2008. They are apparently going to be using the current transmit antenna used for WBDT 26 analog.

Say they will do some testing of the digtial on 26 between midnight and 5am (meaning the analog signal will have to go down during those times) beginning sometime after dec 31, 2008.

Say they have a CP (construction permit) from FCC for their Final, post transition digital facilities on Channel 26, but I expect that may be an error, as I can find no record of that on FCC site as of currently to see what the ERP/directional antenna pattern/etc. for new facilities will be. They also say they need to modify that CP, and expect to submit a filing for it on or around 3/15/2008.

-----------------------------------------------

C. ) Station Which will be staying "where they are" post transition, but they also indicate ARE NOT currently operating their fully authorized, final DTV post transition facility :

WKOI-DT 39 :

this one is a bit confusing. They say they are *not* operating their fully authorized DTV post transition facility, although they are currently operating a full power "fully licensed" facility, so it looks like whatever they need to do probably involves issues such as a new transmit antenna(potentially with different radiation pattern/etc), or to adjust their current transmit antenna. They checked the boxes they say they need to "adjust or install antenna"(except for side mount issue), and "general installation of equipment requiring hiring of antenna crew".

It does say they plan on filing for a CP(construction permit) for their post-transition facility on 3/17/08.

And, it says they will continue to provide full analog service until 2/17/09 -- and that the analog transmitter will be turned off 2/17/09, and the analog antenna will be "removed from tower within 90 days of cessation of analog broadcasting" ...

Nitewatchman

02-28-08, 07:50 PM

FCC recently required stations to file a "DTV Transition Status report" (FCC form 387) ... All of them are in for stations in our area now, Follows is a summary of the info in the Lima market stations' and WBGU's 387 forms. Of course, appreciate any corrections/improvements/suggestions/comments/questions etc anyone might have about any of this.

Note #1 :The forms can be updated when needed regarding certain specifics, so I suppose one could think of some of this as "tentative", and it looks like we might see some changes on any of the Lima stations'(or WBGU's) forms or attached exhibits/etc.

Note #2: I posted Info on the Dayton stations in a separate post, above

Note #3 : sorry this isn't as "short" as I intended it to be, but I found some of the info difficult to accurately summarize in a "short" manner.

Note #4 : since there are only 2 of them Plus WBGU , I'll do these "individually" :

WLIO-DT 8 - Say they plan to provide full analog service until the transition date(2/17/09). Say they are already operating their fully authorized, final, DTV post-transition facility --All they have to do is shut the analog transmitter off sometime on 2/17/09 before 11:59 PM EST ....

WTLW-DT 47 -- Analog on 44, Digital moving to 44 for post-transistion operation.

3/10/08 update regarding some of the below -- Note that FCC has granted their request to use 44 for digital post transiston.

This one is a bit unusual ... They say they have a CP (construction permit) for their final, DTV post-transition facility, but they also say they plan to file for a new CP for their final, DTV post-transition facility on 3/17/08. They also say they are not currently operating their fully authorized final, post-transition facility, but are operating their post-transition facility with a 100KW STA (serving 89.7% of the service area's population). They indicate that they need to switch digital side mounted(to tower) antenna with Top mount analog antenna, and that they also have "other needs" which need to be addressed before they are ready to commence post-transition operation.

Here's where it gets interesting -- Even though they chose to keep the digital on 47 during the channel election process, and the info above is "based" on that, they are also now petitioning FCC to allow them to change that choice, and they want to move the digital to 44(their current analog channel) post-transition. Basically, they provide two "different" possible transition plans (one for 44 and one for 47) in an exhibit attached to their form -- For full explanation, see the exhibit they attached to their form 387 (requires a PDF reader to access), Here :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=616059

A summary of that exhibit is,

For channel 44:

They say if FCC allows the change to 44 (for digital post-transistion operation), it will involve using the current top mounted analog antenna for digital service on 44 post transition, and that all the other equipment required is "already on hand", and they say if they are allowed to do this, they will be able to "reconfigure its transmitter and topmounted antenna from analog to digital operations and commence post-transition digital
service on channel 44 within one day." ... They also say, if they are allowed to do this (use 44), they plan on completing their transition in "Late november or Early december 2008" ... Meaning of course, that they would discontinue analog service at that time+begin post-transition digital operations at that time ... But, elsewhere they also state that the "deadline" they would expect for this to happen would be 2/17/09 ....

For Channel 47 :

They say if FCC doesn't allow them to change to 44, their transition will be "more complex and its viewers will be deprived of the station’s programming for a significantly longer period of
time." Basically, that involves operation with a reduced facility(probably similar to the current one it sounds like) to some point AFTER the transition(after 2/17/09), when they would have to discontinue operations for a period(they predict about a week and that they would have to "wait for" warmer weather, such as in Summer of 2009) while they remove the analog move the DTV antenna to top of tower. Note their form 387 indicates they indicate they plan to provide full analog service until the transition date(2/17/09), I assume that's the plan if they end up on channel 47.

WBGU-DT - Digital currently on 56 (out-of core), analog on 27 - Digital will be moving to 27 for post-transition operations.

This one is confusing, and there seem to be some errors on the form, which one would assume will be corrected at some point. For instance, They indicate on the form they have NOT began construction of their post-transition facility and that they also expect construction to be completed by 9/1/08, but they also indicate they have already constructed a reduced post-transition facility, and that additional construction is necessary for their full post-transition facility. Also, They indicate that they will continue to provide full analog service until the transition date, but in an exhibit with the form, they also indicate their goal is to terminate analog service early, on September 1, 2008.

Anyhow, basically, they also indicate they plan to file for a CP (construction permit) for their post-transition facility on 3/14/2008, and it looks like some equipment needs to be procurred and installed involving modification (new mask filter mostly) of their existing DTV transmitter on channel 56 for service on channel 27 but not involving tower work/antenna work. In order to install the new equipment, after they procure and receive it they say they will need to request an STA (special temporary authority) to cease transmitting digital on channel 56 - They don't specificially say when that might happen, but one might assume sometime in August 2008 given they seem to be saying they "want" to shut down analog+begin digital on 27 in early sept. 2008.

here' is the link to WBGU's Form 387, as if you watch them, you might want to look at it, as perhaps you may be able to decipher it a little better than I did/etc :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101235247&formid=387&fac_num=6568

onulaw76

03-07-08, 09:59 PM

jenkinswoody

03-10-08, 06:23 PM

Any word on WHIO or WBNS multicasting the NCAAs? Looked at both sites- nothing mentioned as of yet.......

Medicine_Man

03-10-08, 08:41 PM

Anyone hear any rumors about TWC getting FSN in High Def? Does Dish or DirectTV offer FSN in HD?

Thanks in advance...

I too am hoping for FSN HD on TWC. Watching baseball in anything other than HD is not acceptable! :)

hall

03-10-08, 09:33 PM

Hmmm, Time Warner adding new HD channels.... What do they say about a "cold day in h*ll" ?? :D

onulaw76

03-11-08, 04:09 PM

Yeah... no doubt! I'm in a condo where I cannot get a dish to face the proper way otherwise I would have switched to satellite LONG ago! Ugh...

hdfan1

03-11-08, 06:04 PM

Anyone hear any rumors about TWC getting FSN in High Def? The Reds have 71 games in HD this year (http://cincinnati.reds.mlb.com/news/press_releases/press_release.jsp?ymd=20080307&content_id=2410937&vkey=pr_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin)! Does Dish or DirectTV offer FSN in HD?

Thanks in advance...

Time Warner is so far saying nothing about it but on Engadget HD's site there was an article that said that both Cincinnati and Dayton would get FSN Ohio and National Geographic HD added about March 25th.

Nitewatchman

03-11-08, 06:27 PM

Anyone hear any rumors about TWC getting FSN in High Def?

There is some info on that(including for Dayton, see second comment in response to article below) here :

http://frontier.cincinnati.com/blogs/tv/2008/03/71reds-games-in-hdtv.asp#comments

onulaw76

03-12-08, 08:34 AM

That is GREAT news! Thanks Nitewatchman...

joe-electron

03-13-08, 06:26 PM

thanks Jeff for the great update on the local Lima area stations DTV transistion. you may also be interested to note that both of the Lima low power network affiliates, WLMO CBS 38 and WLQP ABC 18, plan to relocate their transmitters to downtown Lima and increase their coverage area to include areas to extend down to almost Sidney "in the future". I don't know if a transition date has been set for this. I am guessing this will happen whenever they switch to digital.

jimp2244

03-14-08, 12:45 PM

I was watching WBDT-DT for the first time in a while last night (for Smallville and Reaper new episodes). Noticed that ALL locally originated content during the time I watched (a bit before 8pm to 11pm) was stretched to fill the screen. The HD content from the network and the SD commercials and promos from the network were all proper (HD filling the screen and 4:3 content kept OAR with pillar bars). The content that originates from WBDT (which includes commercials and station promos as well as syndicated shows like Two and a Half Men -- all 4:3 SD) was all stretched to 16:9, making the people look "fat". I certainly hope that, 1. the folks at WBDT don't think that this is acceptable, and 2. this was a mistake or a one-time thing, and will not be happening again.

slreno

03-14-08, 01:12 PM

can someone tell me the qam setting channel number for the digital abc or nbc? through the time warner cable

mlbUC

03-14-08, 02:27 PM

No digital NBC.

hall

03-14-08, 02:51 PM

My Mom (in Lima) told me they "lost" all of the "extra" channels they used to get (via QAM). I presume TWC simply moved them and people need to do a re-scan or if they've possibly encrypted them.

yellekc

03-14-08, 02:53 PM

No digital NBC.

If you are referring to WDTN on cable, I feel you. When I first got my HDTV in January of '07 I sent an email to WDTN and Time Warner, they both blamed each other, but said they were near an agreement. BS, it has been 14 months since then, and nothing. How can TWC not offer NBC HD? I am fortunate enough to be able to pick up the over the air HD signal with a pair of rabbit ears, but it hurts to give up DVR capabilities.

Anyone know what maintenance Time Warner is performing here? I got a message that they will be working on my converter box next Tuesday, and digital channels may not be available. I would be so happy if after this we get:

WDTN HD
CNN HD
Discovery HD
Animal Planet HD
Science HD
National Geographic HD

Hell, I'll be pretty happy with just a few of them.

mlbUC

03-14-08, 02:57 PM

I get all the locals OTA... but TWC still doesn't have it.

On a side note, Dish came to an agreement with LIN (WDTN's parent company) to show WDTN in HD when they launch the Dayton locals. No date on the launch, however.

hall

03-15-08, 12:36 AM

If you are referring to WDTN on cable, I feel you. When I first got my HDTV in January of '07 I sent an email to WDTN and Time Warner, they both blamed each other, but said they were near an agreement. BS, it has been 14 months since then, and nothing. How can TWC not offer NBC HD? 14 months ? Try going back in this thread oh, about 3+ years (4-5 ?). TWC and WDTN have been "in talks", so they say, for a very, very long time.

It's not a question of how can TWC not offer the station. TWC is likely willing to pay some amount of money but WDTN wants more. Now, is TWC low-balling the offer or is WDTN asking "too much" ? No one knows.

hdfan1

03-15-08, 10:17 AM

14 months ? Try going back in this thread oh, about 3+ years (4-5 ?). TWC and WDTN have been "in talks", so they say, for a very, very long time.

It's not a question of how can TWC not offer the station. TWC is likely willing to pay some amount of money but WDTN wants more. Now, is TWC low-balling the offer or is WDTN asking "too much" ? No one knows.

The situation with WDTN basically comes down to the fact they are owned by LIN Broadcasting. LIN has this issue with every station they own. Because of that you won't find their stations in HD on pretty much any cable system or Direct TV. I am not sure how many stations LIN owns but this is happening in pretty much every market they are in because they want more money for the HD signal. LIN did just make a deal a few days ago for their stations to be carried in HD on Dish Network.

Nitewatchman

03-16-08, 08:25 PM

you may also be interested to note that both of the Lima low power network affiliates, WLMO CBS 38 and WLQP ABC 18, plan to relocate their transmitters to downtown Lima and increase their coverage area to include areas to extend down to almost Sidney "in the future". I don't know if a transition date has been set for this. I am guessing this will happen whenever they switch to digital.

Thanks for the info on the Lima LP's Joe!

slreno

03-18-08, 11:45 AM

can anyone verify that there is problems getting 22.1 45.1 45.2 and all of the pbs channels via the qam tuner through time warners cable. only one i can get this morning is 91.2 and 91.22 the others say cant decode channel?

dtv insider

03-18-08, 12:43 PM

jenkinswoody

03-18-08, 09:44 PM

Time Warner is doing a major update to the system between 12A. to 8 P. today.

Did they say what the "update" involved?

dtlong

03-19-08, 05:35 AM

Thats what scares me........Before I came to work all I was getting was channels 2-78 (or something) , I rebooted 3 times just to get those

hillsoft

03-19-08, 11:23 AM

Seem like this problem still exists. They are still stretching SD.

Has anyone contacted them or have a number of someone we can contact?

I was watching WBDT-DT for the first time in a while last night (for Smallville and Reaper new episodes). Noticed that ALL locally originated content during the time I watched (a bit before 8pm to 11pm) was stretched to fill the screen. The HD content from the network and the SD commercials and promos from the network were all proper (HD filling the screen and 4:3 content kept OAR with pillar bars). The content that originates from WBDT (which includes commercials and station promos as well as syndicated shows like Two and a Half Men -- all 4:3 SD) was all stretched to 16:9, making the people look "fat". I certainly hope that, 1. the folks at WBDT don't think that this is acceptable, and 2. this was a mistake or a one-time thing, and will not be happening again.

hillsoft

03-19-08, 11:38 AM

I talked to an engineer at WBDT.

They said their general manager made the decision to upconvert SD up to 1080i to prevent burn in on older sets.

So this wasn't a mistake and they don't plan to change it.

I suggest calling them at 937-323-0026 if you don't care for this.

Trip in VA

03-19-08, 11:41 AM

What a poor excuse. They should do gray bars like two of my local stations do if that's their concern.

- Trip

dtv insider

03-19-08, 04:56 PM

Well they said the update is over and all it did for me was render my cable box inoperable. :confused:

I talked to a Time Warner tech and he said if you have a set-top box that has a cable card in it or a cable card in the TV that you will have problems. The update has problems with cable cards. I pick-up a new hd box with dvr last week and its has a cable card in it.

hall

03-19-08, 09:50 PM

Not the kind of publicity that TW wants.... Dayton Daily News has a story about their "upgrade": http://www.daytondailynews.com/e/content/oh/story/entertainment/tv/2008/03/19/ddn031908timewarnerweb.html

TW has a special page on their website related to it also: http://www.timewarnercable.com/Dayton/settings.html

Just curious, but did they "upgrade" all existing set-tops to use their home-built set-top software ?

Chesskid1

03-25-08, 07:56 PM

NEW CHANNELs

757 - National Geographic HD <-- working
768 - FSN - HD <-- blank screen for me tho

on Time Warner Digital Cable

dtlong

03-25-08, 08:14 PM

Chesskid ................. I do believe FSNHD (CH 768) will only be on air when there is something in HD to broadcast (ie. Reds games,Cavs games). Not your everyday SD shows........i could be wrong though

slreno

03-25-08, 08:26 PM

bout damn time.. now add spike and a few other good ones and where talkin

carlinjm

03-25-08, 11:00 PM

Sci-Fi HD would be great

ChiefIllinifan

03-25-08, 11:14 PM

yellekc

03-26-08, 12:23 PM

National Geographic HD is awesome, I've been waiting for that one since last year. I hope more will be coming.

Lachlan

03-27-08, 12:29 AM

Hey guys, I just put up a UHF antenna in my attic (a U-75R from the shack) and I'm confused by my channel selection. According to antennaweb, all the channels I would expect to get are broadcasting from Dayton, all 12.6-13.0 miles away, all at between 274 and 279 degrees. These include the usual NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, CW, and PBS. However in Beyond TV (HTPC TV software) all I get are NBC and PBS very strong, then nothing for the others, nomatter where I point my antenna. Why would I not be able to pick up the other channels?

slreno

03-28-08, 07:44 AM

i have standard cable and i get the digital hd channels 22.1, 45.1, 45.2 and 91.2
through the cable with my qam tuner instead over useing over air. all channels but channel 7 are out anyone having problems? are they out with antenna or is it just time warners problem

griswoldo

03-28-08, 09:38 AM

Did anybody else have signal problems with WGRT Fox 45 on Dish tonight? Every 10-12 seconds during Beauty and the Geek, the picture and audio would freeze and then jump ahead. I tried switching between my OTA and the SAT box and got the same thing on both sources.

Any ideas?I couldn't get either 45.1 or 45.2 at all. This was through my dish network box. The signal meter said 100, but I got the yellow error box that comes up when it can't lock into a channel. Usually rescanning solves the situation, but I wasn't concerned about it at the time because I don't watch anything on Fox on Thursday nights. I haven't checked it since then though, so I don't know if it's different now or not.

hall

03-28-08, 09:45 AM

slreno: Time Warner can simply "turn off" those channels or hide them. The likelihood of "all" of them being out at the same time (except ch 7) is pretty slim.... This is a TW problem.

slreno

03-28-08, 10:46 AM

just wondering this happened the other day and they all came back on but it happened again yesterday was just wondering if it was completely down or what.

hall

03-28-08, 12:08 PM

I would have to guess that QAM "support" is low on TW's list of concerns. For example, if they do some work on their system and it will shut off QAM for a week, they probably don't get too worried....

It has been up and down based on other people's postings in this thread. Don't worry, it's not likely anything *you* did or anything wrong with your TV. :)

realityboy

03-28-08, 03:24 PM

I can't get a few of these channels either. I'm using cablecards. Actually the only ones that are missing for me that I've noticed are 722, 745, and 746. These all originate from the same place, right? Is it definitely a Time Warner problem or are those stations down?

Nitewatchman

03-28-08, 04:53 PM

WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT (and all the other Dayton digital broadcast stations for that matter) are and have been on the air(OTA) anytime I've looked recently, including right now.

Hey guys, I just put up a UHF antenna in my attic (a U-75R from the shack) and I'm confused by my channel selection. According to antennaweb, all the channels I would expect to get are broadcasting from Dayton, all 12.6-13.0 miles away, all at between 274 and 279 degrees. These include the usual NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, CW, and PBS. However in Beyond TV (HTPC TV software) all I get are NBC and PBS very strong, then nothing for the others, nomatter where I point my antenna. Why would I not be able to pick up the other channels?

I don't know how often jimp2244 checks this thread, but you might want to PM him, as he uses Beyond TV (Including with Dayton stations OTA, but he's in Cincinnati area and I'm not sure if he checks this thread as often as Cincinnati thread) and would likely be able to provide much better info that I can ...

But, Only suggestion I might offer at this point is if you haven't done so already, that perhaps you might want to try using some other software with your PC ATSC tuner card or USB stick + see if you can detirmine whether or not it might be some sort of reception related issue(edit: probably most likely - getting antenna outside for instance is often a good idea - in addition to greatly attenuating signal by having antenna indoors, issues such as multipath(which are often very frequency or "channel" specific can be particularly problematic with antenna in attic vs outdoors ) or problem with connections/etc vs. a problem with Beyond TV's "channel/guide setup"/etc ........ If it supports your card or USB stick, WatchHDTV or TSreader are two freeware programs which you could use to help you "verify" your reception is OK :

Get TSreader here (note, with TSreader you "tune" to the stations using the actual channel they are broadcast on (for Dayton, those are 18,30,41,50,51,58), not their virtual "remapped" channel numbers):

http://www.coolstf.com/tsreader/

WatchHDTV is available here (make sure to read the readme info/etc. on how to set things up - also note that there is a WatchHDTV thread in HTPC area if you need help) :

http://watchhdtv.net/download.aspx

If you're using Windows XP MCE or Vista, I suppose You could use MCE and it's "signal meter" to some extent for this as well, but the way the EPG works on it and the way "channels" are set up with it, It's possible in certain cases you could also run into some issues decoding certian stations that aren't "reception related" issues ... (for instance, I've heard MS has included some updated channel info in the guide for some stations which are changing their channel post-transistion (post 2/17/09) channel assignments, which "messes things up" currently, because they haven't changed channels they are broadcasting on yet) ....

Also, if you have some sort of "signal meter" for your Tuner card, you may be able to verify the actual reception is "ok" ... With it ...

That's Probably not of much help, again jimp2244 or others using BeyondTV can probably provide better info, but let us know how it goes, what you find out regarding what is causing the problem(especially in this thread if it turns out to be some "locally specific" issue), as that info may help others ...

slreno

03-28-08, 05:09 PM

i just did a rescan for the digital qam channels and i have got them back on again.. not sure if time warner had some kind of problem and it caused my qam tuner to lose them or they changed the frequency or what but a rescan got them back.

jimp2244

03-28-08, 07:37 PM

WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT (and all the other Dayton digital broadcast stations for that matter) are and have been on the air(OTA) anytime I've looked recently, including right now.Same here, no issues with any Dayton OTA stations.

Hey guys, I just put up a UHF antenna in my attic (a U-75R from the shack) and I'm confused by my channel selection. According to antennaweb, all the channels I would expect to get are broadcasting from Dayton, all 12.6-13.0 miles away, all at between 274 and 279 degrees. These include the usual NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, CW, and PBS. However in Beyond TV (HTPC TV software) all I get are NBC and PBS very strong, then nothing for the others, nomatter where I point my antenna. Why would I not be able to pick up the other channels?

I don't know how often jimp2244 checks this thread, but you might want to PM him, as he uses Beyond TV (Including with Dayton stations OTA, but he's in Cincinnati area and I'm not sure if he checks this thread as often as Cincinnati thread) and would likely be able to provide much better info that I can ...

But, Only suggestion I might offer at this point is if you haven't done so already, that perhaps you might want to try using some other software with your PC ATSC tuner card or USB stick + see if you can detirmine whether or not it might be some sort of reception related issueI agree with that suggestion. Also, do you have another digital TV that you can use to determine if you are able to get those stations?

I'm having no issues with BeyondTV and the Dayton channels OTA. When you chose your channel line-up, did it automatically show all the dayton local stations? Usually then it will do a scan and see which ones of those have a signal. I'm receiving all of them just fine with a roof top antenna here in Sharonville. Feel free to PM me as well.

slreno

03-28-08, 07:49 PM

hall

03-28-08, 08:13 PM

91.2, as one example, is the QAM channel. TW appears to be re-mapping them to their "common" channel number, i.e. 7.x, 22.x, and so on. They may not be doing it for channel 7 or your TV may not support the method they're using. I believe others have reported channel 7.x is re-mapped correctly while it's not for others.

Paul210

03-29-08, 10:15 AM

have another quick question.. here is how i am getting these digital channel. i have strictly standard cable and i am getting my digital locals via qam tuner through time warners cable..
i get 45.1 45.2 22.1 and so on
i just got a new tv and the channel are as follows all of the 14.1 .2 .3 and so on 22.1 45.1 45.2 and channel 7 is showing on this tv as 91.2 BUTTTT

the tv i just got rid of all the channels where the same except 91.2 actually showed up as 7.1 but on this new tv it is not converting to the local channel it stays on 91.2.. is it this new tv or is it some settings screwed up with time warners frequncy?

i hope all of this make sense :))

gawd after i read that, it looks confusing as heck. i hope you guys understand what i mean.

Makes perfect sense. I've been wondering about that also. I have a friend with a 19" Magnavox "bedroom" TV that picks up all the QAM stations and remaps them exactly where you would think they're supposed to be, ie, 7.1, 7.2, etc. Her main TV, a Sony, didn't pick up all of them on a scan, and doesn't remap several of them. When I found out the actual channel numbers and entered them, the channels were there and stayed in the channel lineup, albiet not remapped.

slreno

03-29-08, 10:38 AM

my system can map all the channels but 7.1 and 7.2, its just odd that it can map the rest of the channels 22.1 45.1 and 45.2 that are in the 80's and get mapped fine. so that tells me that my sony can process the mapping that time warner is useing. so that leads me to believe that time warner is having a problem with the mapping of 7.1 and 7.2 (91.2 and 91.22)

hall

03-29-08, 12:55 PM

slreno

03-29-08, 02:53 PM

i cannot input 7.1, 91.2 doesnt remap at all to 7.1 like it should.. for me anyway..

Nitewatchman

03-29-08, 09:20 PM

I've been wondering about that also.

If someone with TWC in dayton area, TSreader, and a supported by TSreader PC tuner card(or USB stick) that does QAM can post/attach HTML export files(zip them and attach to post) from TSreader for the transport streams of TW's Mux of the local broadcast signals on various "QAM channels" where they are present, it *might* perhaps (or might not, hard to say) tell us something of interest ....

Paul210

03-30-08, 10:04 AM

WCET-DT is another one that doesn't remap on the Sony, nor did it show up on a channel scan. I had to find it by trial and error. It's 109.15 and 109.16.

realityboy

03-30-08, 05:42 PM

I can actually get 45.1, 45.2, and 22.1 from Time Warner with my QAM tuner, but I cannot tune them in while using cablecards. Any ideas?

hillsoft

04-03-08, 02:33 PM

Update on the issue with Dayton CW stretching SD programming to 1080i.

I received an email from Gregg Abbott who is the operations/program manager.

He thanked me for my concerns on their stretching of SD content, and encouraged me to have others concerned email him.

His email address is

greg.abbott AT daytonscw.com

So if you would like to see this changed back, a polite messages Greg's way might help.

1450kHz

04-04-08, 10:01 PM

Interesting about the Sonys... My parents have a Sony LCD that they get QAM channels from via TWC (in Lima). Some re-map to their known channels while others don't. So if they manually input the channel number, i.e. 7.1, they may actually get it ?

Sometimes it depends on the tuner or card. When I was using the Fusion 3 QAM, I was getting remaps at first, but then after an update to the driver it didn't so that anymore.

I kicked Time Warner to the curb last fall so I don't know what they are doing now on those QAM channels.

s1059197

04-07-08, 09:10 AM

So if you would like to see this changed back, a polite messages Greg's way might help.

Done. Thanks for the tip.

Phil

Chesskid1

04-07-08, 08:10 PM

is anyone else getting problems on ABC? almost looks like 3D effect or a slight ghosting. i tried my two different HD DVRs, cable box then over the air and ABC looked exactly the same, no other channels doing this. I am in kettering, ohio.

Nitewatchman

04-07-08, 09:18 PM

is anyone else getting problems on ABC? almost looks like 3D effect or a slight ghosting.

Was flipping around and noticed that, it wasn't happening from WCPO-DT (ABC HD) Cincinnati.

Anyway, it was obvious they got on it quickly (dropping to SD/etc), and The "Color Ghosting" issue WKEF-DT was having earlier this evening appears to be fixed as of 9:12pm ...

angiecopus

04-10-08, 08:16 AM

I live in preble county and have quite a bit of trouble with channel 22 out of dayton ohio,
frequent break ups and loss of signals. i have a digital converter box, and the only thing i can't get is channel 7 whio, if i move the attenna to the east i would be able to get it but would lose alot of other channels. so frustrating.

angiecopus

04-12-08, 06:35 AM

daytons abc22 keeps losing signal and just plain crappy picture. anyone else having problems with 22.1?

jimp2244

04-13-08, 12:18 PM

daytons abc22 keeps losing signal and just plain crappy picture. anyone else having problems with 22.1?
Receiving it fine here. What kind of antenna do you use to receive it?

onulaw76

04-13-08, 02:34 PM

Does anyone have the number to "he/she who flips the switch" to make this in High Def? The Reds game today is supposed to be in HD and it isn't... Thanks in advance!

angiecopus

04-13-08, 08:23 PM

jimp2244

04-14-08, 02:27 PM

I live in a rural part of preble county and have a Tall Attenna. i keep moving the router, but my parents get mad at me everytime i do so now i have no sound, and a screwed up channel . i am thinking about getting rabbit ears.Rabbit ears most likely won't help with WKEF-DT (ABC/22) as they are designed for VHF reception. Without knowing exactly what kind of antenna you have it's hard to give suggestions but a high-mounted outdoor antenna is going to give you much better results than any indoor antenna, assuming it's properly aimed.

cs1145

04-19-08, 04:16 PM

I use both a Pioneer Plasma HDTV with a built-in ATSC OTA tuner and a "MyHD Card" in a personal computer to access OTC high definition TV signals. This allows me to display 2 HDTV shows using the picture-in-picture function of the Pioneer TV. I've noticed that both of these tuners have a problem with the local NBC HD broadcasts. While the picture is sometimes OK, typically I lose signal and see pixilation or freezing of the picture. This lost of picture is confirmed when both units are tuned to NBC. Both tuners are hooked up to separate Phillip's PHDTV1 HDTV antennae. I am about 7 miles from the broadcast towers. I’ve also noted that the signal level of the NBC station might be 75-83% versus other channels being 93-100%. What thoughts do you have about this?

Nitewatchman

04-20-08, 07:20 PM

cs1145,

Welcome to AVSforum.

You're experiencing reception related issue with WDTN-DT. Probably multipath, but a few other things could be involved as well - such as Front-end of receiver overloaded(probably shouldn't be an issue with indoor antenna from your distance if you're not using an amp), interference of some sort(probably unlikely in this case), AGC circuit in your receiver not keeping up with rapid fading conditions that sometimes occur when wind blows tree limbs around/etc/etc (note that sort of thing, just like airplanes flying overhead can effect multipath conditions as well) ...

In other words Many, many issues can deliteriously effect OTA reception, some of these issues (such as multipath) can often be VERY frequency specific - meaning, just because it doesn't effect a station operting on one frequency/channel from even the same tower, doesn't mean it won't effect a station operating on a different channel, even if they are broadcasting from the same tower.

In any case, Adjusting antenna/placing antenna in a better spot for reception of them is probably your best bet to try to improve things.

Note that The signal readings you mention are signal quality readings. They are effected by issues such as multipath, or "overloading" issues. A very strong signal can show low, bouncing around or no readings on these types of meters. WDTN-DT transmits with 1000KW ERP, with a non-directional transmit antenna. What that means is they have the strongest signal of the Dayton stations, although for the most part all the others transmit "strong signals" as well, on a continuous, 24/7 basis ....

angiecopus

04-21-08, 06:21 AM

anybody getting no signal on WKOI out of richmond indiana? its normally on. hope they didn't take that away.

angiecopus

04-21-08, 07:02 AM

wkoi really makes me mad, i go to the other tvs the analog channel 43 is on but when i turn on my converter box, no digital channel 43, and there is no way to contact them.

angiecopus

04-21-08, 05:45 PM

i am asking one more time if anyone can get Wkoi out of Richmond indiana? the digital channels are completly off the air? cant find a way to contact them.

Nitewatchman

04-21-08, 06:33 PM

WKOI-DT (digital) is currently off air. It's generally pretty rare, but Sometimes stations have to go off air for extended periods for maintanence, improvements to their facility, for tower work or other various reasons.

I'm sure they know they're off air, but if you want to contact them+let them know you watch their digital station, appreciate them being there+are missing their digital signal, currently :

#1) You could try using the contact/address info for them shown on various applications/filings they've sent the FCC.

That address for WKOI as specifed on their most recent filing to FCC Most recent address IS :

TRINITY BROADCASTING OF INDIANA, INC.
P. O. BOX 1057
RICHMOND, IN 47375

Phone number given along with that address is :

765-935-2390

Here's the latest application from WKOI to FCC (requires PDF reader to access) - this application is for modifcation of their facilities, and was granted by 3/17/08. :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101238765&formid=301&fac_num=67869

#2). Also, TBN owns WKOI, should be contact info of some sort on their website, here :

http://www.tbn.org/

angiecopus

04-22-08, 06:19 AM

i tried everything i could. nothing will help. i am still not getting any answers as to why wkoi digital channels is off the air. good news though, got abc 22 back.

angiecopus

04-22-08, 08:35 PM

ok i got my answer to the problem. something went out on the transmitter so it maybe 2-4 days before wkoi-dt is up and running again.

mlbUC

04-22-08, 09:23 PM

You have to be about the only person who cares about WKOI's programming.

Nitewatchman

04-22-08, 11:08 PM

ok i got my answer to the problem. something went out on the transmitter so it maybe 2-4 days before wkoi-dt is up and running again.

Thanks for posting that info.

jimp2244

04-23-08, 07:02 AM

You have to be about the only person who cares about WKOI's programming.What, you don't watch JCTV?

angiecopus

04-23-08, 07:11 AM

i watch the Church channel, which if i happen to miss Hour of power with Robert Shuller
then i watch it again i think either wed or thursday.

gregarious119

04-30-08, 09:48 PM

Nitewatchman

04-30-08, 11:31 PM

Does anyone here know if any stations will be changing significantly post-transition? I would hope they could use some resources and boost signal by eliminating the cost of the analog transition.

Anything along those lines or any changes to look forward to in February?

Details of Dayton stations current post-analog shut off plans can be found earlier in this thread, here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13251147#post13251147

Note that since I last updated that post, WPTD-DT(currently transmits out of core on ch 58) has filed for, and been Granted Construction permit for post-transition operation on Channel 16. It's for 81KW ERP (Their power allotment from FCC in post-transition table of allotments/etc), using the same transmit antenna they currently use for analog 16.

WBDT-DT(currently transmits on 18) has apparently yet to file for a CP or CP MOD for post-transition operation on channel 26, at least I can't find any new filings from them in FCC database --- Although they indicated on their Form 387 they were planning on doing that by ~Mid March .... They're alloted a 50KW ERP allocation on channel 26 in FCC's post-transition DTV table of allotments.

Update : Almost forgot -- Since I last updated "that post", WKOI-DT has also filed for, and have been granted a CP mod for some minor changes to their post-transition facilities vs. what they are using currently - It's for a increase in Transmit antenna height+a slight decrease in ERP (less than 1db decrease in power). They will remain on Channel 39 post transition.

The Other Dayton digital stations will continue to operate post-transition with their current facilities.

While FCC in some cases is currently allowing some minor changes that result in generally small increases in service area, stations who wish to do so (where they have any "room" for it) are not going to be able to file to maximize their signal until After August of this year ....

angiecopus

05-01-08, 07:12 AM

browerjs

05-01-08, 08:28 AM

looks like we are going to lose Whio where i live when the swithover happens, don't like channel 7 anyway. if the goverment would leave the tv stations alone and let analog stay, then we would have to worry about getting new tvs or converter boxes. or losing signals on stations.

Just curious, but why will you be unable to recieve WHIO-DT, if you are able to get it now. Also why the comment about the government leaving the TV stations alone, obviously you are already receiving DTV, based on your previous posts, so you should be unaffected. Also they are giving free converter boxes out to the public if you apply (which IMO is the real problem as my tax dollars shouldn't be going to people so that they can watch TV, but that's another issue :) ).

Trip in VA

05-01-08, 09:06 AM

Your tax dollars are safe and sound. The coupon program is being paid for with money from the auctioning off of channels 52-69 (the ones that aren't being used for public safety, anyway). Coupon program costs about $1 billion, auction brought in $20 billion.

And the reason TV can't stay analog is because you can't remove channels 52-69, stay analog, and have them all still fit.

- Trip

browerjs

05-01-08, 09:18 AM

gregarious119

05-01-08, 10:41 AM

looks like we are going to lose Whio where i live when the swithover happens, don't like channel 7 anyway. if the goverment would leave the tv stations alone and let analog stay, then we would have to worry about getting new tvs or converter boxes. or losing signals on stations.

<sarcasm>

Well, using that logic:

If the government would just leave roads alone and let 2 lane roads stay, then we would never have to worry about road construction, lane closures, or cattleshoots and orange barrels.

</sarcasm>

Sometimes we have to put up with a little hassle in order for things to get better. I'm sorry about your inconvenience, but I think this transition will be great once the bugs get ironed out.

angiecopus

05-01-08, 12:55 PM

because we can only get Whio on ANALOG ONLY, and my converter box is hooked up to my tv so i cannot get WHIO anymore on my ANALOG tv.

angiecopus

05-01-08, 01:46 PM

now of a sudden channel 2 is messed up. why if digital is a great thing then why is the local channels messed up? sure didn't mess up when i had no converter box. Analog is still the best thing around. i rember the days where we didn't have cable and just 4 stations. life was much more simple then.

Paul210

05-01-08, 02:13 PM

I would think that Camden would be a sweet spot to receive Dayton AND Cincinnati digitals if you had even a modest antenna setup.

angiecopus

05-01-08, 02:19 PM

yeah, but if you live in the country, we have a tall attennia attached to our house and to one of the older channel masters. yeah we can get cinci stations really clear on my converter box. unless the wind we are having today is screwing up with the channels, we live in area where we don't have cable, and we depend on our Attennia to pull in(shoot there goes channel 2 again). both cinci and dayton. I am not sure whats going on today. never had this problem with channel 2 before.

Paul210

05-01-08, 02:33 PM

If the wind is causing that much of a problem, it sounds like you have some loose wiring to that "attennia". :rolleyes:

angiecopus

05-01-08, 02:36 PM

no we don't have loose wireing i think its the dumb engeeners at channel 2, because we never had that problem before.

browerjs

05-01-08, 03:16 PM

WDTN-DT has been doing something new this week. Always in the past during the Today Show, when Al Roker is finished with the national news, he'll send it back to the station to do their local news. Until Monday of this week, WDTN-DT, never switched over to their local feed, allowing you to hear the cast of the Today Show talking back and forth, quite entertaining sometimes. Anyways, throughout this week they started switching, so you can now see the local news during the Today Show, this is kind of annoying though, because when they switch back to the HD feed you loose a couple of seconds of the NBC feed.

So maybe they are playing around with something over at WDTN to make this process go smoother.

angiecopus

05-01-08, 04:06 PM

According to channel 2 they are not having any problems. this has been happening since 1:00 pm during days of our lives. I just pray its the wind.

hall

05-01-08, 05:14 PM

because we can only get Whio on ANALOG ONLY, and my converter box is hooked up to my tv so i cannot get WHIO anymore on my ANALOG tv. How many inputs does this TV have ?

Nitewatchman

05-02-08, 12:53 AM

i think its the dumb engeeners at channel 2 .

Wrong in more ways than one.

angiecopus

05-02-08, 10:44 AM

channel 2 is the only channel that is messed up bad. the other channels are now screw up. SO its not my attenna its someone at channel 2 playing with it.

browerjs

05-02-08, 11:57 AM

channel 2 is the only channel that is messed up bad. the other channels are now screw up. SO its not my attenna its someone at channel 2 playing with it.

I've had WDTN-DT on all morning long, and have had 0 problems. Something has to be wrong with your antenna or your converter.

terryfoster

05-02-08, 12:01 PM

Channel 2 is the only channel that is messed up. The other channels are not screwed up. So, its not my antenna, it's someone at channel 2 playing with it.

This is not a logical conclusion you can draw from this situation because if there was such a problem with WDTN-DT's broadcast there should be more people reporting this problem and backing you up.

How does WGRT-TV (analog 45) look from your antenna? Since WDTN-DT broadcasts on UHF 50 it maybe somewhat helpful to know what WGRT-TV looks like. Are there any ghosts in the WGRT-TV picture? How fuzzy is WGRT-TV?

Also, I believe you mentioned before that you have a channel master antenna. I'm assuming this is a directional antenna. What direction do you have your antenna pointed when you're trying to pick up WDTN-DT?

I think others on this list may be willing to help if you come across as being more open to helpful suggestions and you stop placing blame on the wrong people.

angiecopus

05-02-08, 12:54 PM

oh forget it i will just have to suffer through the signal break ups. i will just have to watch wlw tv it gives much better signal than the dayton stations. I should just unhook my converter box until Feb 2009.

angiecopus

05-02-08, 12:56 PM

I've had WDTN-DT on all morning long, and have had 0 problems. Something has to be wrong with your antenna or your converter.

Because you live closer to dayton than i do, thats why. there is nothing wrong with the converter box or my attenna.

angiecopus

05-02-08, 01:57 PM

hall

05-02-08, 01:59 PM

Because you live closer to dayton than i do, thats why. there is nothing wrong with the converter box or my attenna. No offense, but you don't know what you're talking about. Where someone lives has nothing to do with your assumption. Using your logic, the engineers at WDTN are adjusting dials and knobs and switches so that only people in Camden OH are affected.

terryfoster

05-02-08, 02:01 PM

Because you live closer to dayton than i do, thats why. there is nothing wrong with the converter box or my attenna.

How old is your antenna? In what direction is your antenna pointed, Dayton? Cincinnati? Are any of the elements on your antenna broken?

You're probably right that there's nothing wrong with your antenna or converter box, but there could be a problem with your antenna alignment.

I've attached two PDFs that show the broadcast coverage area for WLWT-DT and WDTN-DT. My guess at this point is that your antenna is pointed towards Cincinnati since you don't seem to have an issue watching WLWT-DT while you do have problems with WDTN-DT. It is important to point your antenna towards Dayton if you wish to get reliable reception from those stations.

jimp2244

05-02-08, 03:07 PM

i would like to ask any OUT of Dayton if they are experiencing constant break ups of the 2.1 and 2.2 its still doing it. whereas the other channels, 5, 9, 12, 14 16, 19, 26, 45, 43, 48 and 64 those channels are not breaking up. i don't have 7 and sometimes 22 is not on.

its seems like noone seems to belive me when i say channel 2 is messed up badly which it hasn't happend like this before.

Ok, I am OUT of Dayton. I am in Sharonville, just north of Cincinnati. Camden is about 20 miles away from the Dayton towers. I am about 31 miles away from them. There are no issues with WDTN-DT. The only issues are with your set up.

I think we all "believe" you when you say channel 2 is "messed up" -- for YOU. It is not "messed up" for anyone else, which indicates the problem is on your end. It's sort of like calling Duke Energy's engineers morons because your lamp won't come on, when the real problem is that your lamp is not plugged in.

gregarious119

05-02-08, 03:08 PM

angiecopus:

if it helps you, I get WDTN-DT at a signal level of about 67-70 with maybe one or two dropouts per hour.

On the flip side, I get WHIO-DT at a signal level of about 75-78, but it drops out about once a minute.

Now this seemingly wouldn't make sense because I have stronger signal on WHIO. However, my assumption is that I am getting more multipath problems on WHIO (channel 41, 7.1) than I am on WDTN. I need to make some adjustments to the aim of my antenna and would ideally like to move my antenna outside because the rafters of my attic may be the culprit.

Maybe this situation helps you feel not quite so alone and frustrated with WDTN. Like terryfoster said, most of the people lurking on here are pretty willing to help if you commit to the same. It seems like you should be in good shape if we can narrow down the problem and see what kind of solution will work.

browerjs

05-02-08, 03:23 PM

Because you live closer to dayton than i do, thats why. there is nothing wrong with the converter box or my attenna.

You are 6 miles further from the antennas then me (Camden to WDTN 25 miles, My address to WDTN 19 miles), and that's mileage by driving. If you go as the crow flys from Camden to the WDTN tower (located at 39.718861,-84.255833) you are actually closer then 25 miles of driving, while i'm about the same.

I use a Silver Sensor in my attic, and if you are using a CM mounted outdoors above your house, and not receiving WDTN well, something is wrong with your setup.

dtv insider

05-02-08, 03:37 PM

I live east of Camden and west of Germantown with no problems with any of the Dayton stations. My antenna is laying in the attic of a two story house with no problems. Some of the people lurking on this site are station engineers under different names. All if you talk to station engineers with a tiny bit of respect and not place the problem on the station you will fine the engineers will help you and some will make house call to see the problem.

angiecopus

05-02-08, 11:39 PM

maybe the problem is the trees in my yard. maybe once the wind dies down and the leaves stop moving maybe things will be back to normal.

angiecopus

05-03-08, 07:05 AM

I am so sorry. I solved the problem, it was the wind. channel 2 is coming in better than ever, i am now getting channel 22 again which is weird.

cranston

05-04-08, 09:55 PM

Panasonic PT-53WXD63 bought five or so years ago.

Of late, it has a *tremendous* problem with convergence. That is, the magenta and green on the screen have diverged greatly. The green is extremely pincushioned -- that is, the green doesn't make a square -- the corner points are there, but the horizontal is way bowed in. Magenta doesn't appear much better, at least from where I sit.

I go to the convergence menu, but I can't induce enough change from those menus -- some of the crosses are twisted almost 45 degrees. Plus, toth the lineup to the center of the screen, and the 8 corners are just way out in left field.

Funny thing is, it just went "poof" one day. Wife turned the TV off, and then on 15 minutes later, and misaligned, it was.

Is there a repair tech who monitors this board, or can someone recommend a tech?

Thanks,
Cran

robmadden1

05-05-08, 03:30 AM

Damn as of 3:27am channel WDTN 2.1 and 2.2 is comming with a very strong signal in Cincinnati as if it was a local station. Thats the only Dayton digital station I can get to come in with my digital tv other then 14 out of Oxford. Have they tweaked thier antenna or signal stength at all? A weird question why is 2.1 and 2.2 showing the exact same thing? I am just using my outdoor radio shack fm anntena indoors to get my digital channels. I am in Delhi on top of a hill on the 3rd floor of a condo. 2.2 looks blury out of focus compaired to 2.1 with the same broadcast. Channel 5 has a way better picture then both of them on thier NBC feed.

jimp2244

05-05-08, 07:18 AM

I solved the problem, it was the wind.
What did you do, turn the wind off? ;)

jimp2244

05-05-08, 07:20 AM

Panasonic PT-53WXD63 bought five or so years ago.

Of late, it has a *tremendous* problem with convergence.
Sorry I don't have the answer to your question, but there is a display hardware forum on AVS that may be helpful to you if you haven't already found it, and if no one here can help.

jimp2244

05-05-08, 07:21 AM

angiecopus

05-08-08, 04:16 PM

well the channel i was planning to watch today think tv 16 ohio, has completly lost its signal, anyone else not getting channel 16s signal.

hall

05-08-08, 05:31 PM

It's quite windy over my way....

dtv insider

05-08-08, 08:57 PM

May be the engineers at Think Tv turned the transmitting antenna away from Camden.

mlbUC

05-08-08, 11:10 PM

I'm guessing they are just trying to piss off angiecopus.

Nitewatchman

05-08-08, 11:58 PM

Just imagine some of the calls the stations are going to be getting in a little over 9 months ...

Might be tough for station employees to put in for Feb~March 2009 vacation time, but now would be a good time to work on those "DTV transition babies" .... ;)

gkrodg00

05-09-08, 11:31 PM

Forgive the long post and if this has been reported previously.

I have both a Series3 Tivo and a Tivo HD that I use to receive OTA broadcasts and Dayton Time Warner Cable. Until today, I had cable cards installed only in the Series3. When ESPN2HD and the lineup change rolled out last year, I lost TNTHD, DiscoveryHD and have never been able to receive ESPN2HD nor any of the latest HD channels from TW (History, A&E, TBSHD, etc.). Apparently this was due to the switched-digital video protocols TW is using and its incompatibility with one-way cable cards. Although, I have continued to be able to receive all of the SD digital channels, ESPNHD, HDNET, HDNET Movies, Mojo, Universal HD.

Monday, I finally capitulated and decided to get a non-DVR HD Time Warner box to plug-in to a separate input on my receiver solely to watch Reds games on the new Fox Sports HD channel. I rationalized $7/month for Reds in HD plus I would get TNTHD and TBSHD to watch NBA games in HD would be worth it.

I brought the box home from the new Time Warner store at the Dayton Mall. Initially, I plugged the coax from the wall into the TW box 'IN' and a coax from the 'OUT' to the Tivo in. I thought that might work but it did not. So then, I put a splitter in-line to each box. Had the TW box up and running, went back to the Tivo box to make sure it got its signal back and out of pure serendipity, I just tried 768 on the Tivo and EUREKA! It tuned it in. Tried ESPN2HD, HistoryHD, TNTHD, TBSHD, all of the TW HD lineup, tuned in whereas in the past it had not. These supposed SDV deployed channels were now being received. I thought maybe it was the new box that might be the reason, so I unplugged it. Channels still worked. Took the splitter out and took the wall coax straight to the Tivo. Channels still worked.

Called TW and tried to get an explanation for my good fortune and of course, no idea what I'm talking about. Emailed a contact at TW and he is checking with the engineers but haven't heard back yet.

Scheduled cable card install on the TivoHD that until now I had just been running with OTA and analog TW and after I did the install myself (technician greeted me with "I've never installed these before") I now proudly receive all of TW's HD lineup on both my Tivo boxes.

My other theory is that HD box that I did not have until Monday, when it was added to my account, "authorized" something and allowed these channels to tune in but that really makes no sense either. It could have been pure coincidence about the box as I have not tried to tune those channels in months. They would just tune a SD Preview channel and not the actual channel.

The TW SDV channels I should not be able to receive (unless they have quietly abandoned SDV) but I do.

There is a supposed mythical Tuning Resolver that will allow 2-way functionality in these original 1-way cable card hardware coming out sometime this year after the cable companies and 3rd party manufacturers like Tivo came to an agreement, but I have not been holding my breath.

So my point for this long-winded post is:

1) Any explanation for the change?

2) Notify Dayton area Time Warner Tivo owners

3) Annouce I have just a little less disdain for TW than I harbored prior to Monday.

22 Unique HD Channels I receive with combination of OTA + TW and the ability to DVR. (Does not include: 3 duplicate PBS HD Channels, Duplicate CBS, ABC, Fox). 64.1 gets me non-national UK basketball games :-)

OTA-HD:
NBC (2.1)
CBS (7.1)
PBS (16.6)
ABC (22.1)
CW (26.1)
Fox (45.1)
WSTR (64.1)

Time Warner-HD
CBS (707)
PBS (714)
PBS (716)
ABC (722)
Fox (745)
CET (748)
A&E (750)
History (751)
TBS (752)
Food (753)
HGTV (754)
Discovery (755)
TNT (756)
NG (757)
MOJO (760)
Universal (761)
HDNET (762)
HDNET Movies (763)
ESPN2 (764)
ESPN (765)
Fox Sports Ohio (768)

terryfoster

05-10-08, 07:00 AM

gkrodg00

05-10-08, 12:42 PM

^It's entirely possible that your account did have a change in authorization. The more likely candidate is that you somehow improved your signal quality to your TiVo and so your tuner was able to get these channels. I can say with some certainty that your TiVo shouldn't receive any SDV channels so the channels you are receiving are not SDV.

I'm not certain that TWC has implemented SDV in this region. Has anyone heard differently?
Up until recently, if I tuned to the HD channels in question (ESPN2HD, TNTHD, etc.) it would just be a generic Preview channel in SD. Similar to what users in other TW locations were reporting.

I was told by a higher level CSR back in the fall that I had to have the TW box to receive these channels, though they did not mention SDV by name, that is what I took it to mean.

angiecopus

05-10-08, 02:51 PM

channel 43 wkoi, is it tbn or are thy working on their tower again, sound skipping and pixels other than that the signal is great. maybe its time the goverment learns about their precious digital switchover, they need to wait another 2 years until all these stations can work out their bugs.

hall

05-10-08, 04:54 PM

I don't believe TW is using SDV in the Dayton area yet. What they're doing is encrypting those channels you "lost". CableCard or no CableCard.... People with QAM tuners lost them too. As you were told on the phone, though they are "free" channels, a TW HD set-top is req'd to receive them.

hall

05-10-08, 04:59 PM

channel 43 wkoi, is it tbn or are thy working on their tower again, sound skipping and pixels other than that the signal is great. Is this still happening for you ? It's just before 5pm for me... Never mind, I am seeing pixellation and just lost signal briefly. It is the lowest strength "local" I get, FWIW.

angiecopus

05-10-08, 05:49 PM

Yep, at least i am not the only one. get this though during rainy weather channel 22 comes in great.

angiecopus

05-10-08, 07:25 PM

there is a very good movie on channel 43 but the skips in the sound and pixeliation is still going on. I like to know what their problem is in Richmond indiana that they cant get their digital channels cleared up.

Nitewatchman

05-10-08, 08:52 PM

WKOI-DT's RF signal appears to be fine here at 8:30~8:50pm. Steady, strong/consistant signal as usual. However, I'm getting numerous TEI/Continuity errors occuring with multiple streams within their transport stream. These are what are causing the audio/video glitches(pixelization/dropouts/etc), currently.

Could be something else as well, but Suspect they Could be having a STL issue or similar ... WKOI analog seems fine currently, though ....

Update : Attached zip file has An error log output(from a tool called "TS packet editor) from a error scan of about a 2 minute capture of their transport stream from around 8:40pm tonight .. Just a real quick analyzisis ... Note that when one gets TEI/continuity errors due to reception issues, All Streams within the TS(transport stream) are effected, pretty much simultanously, such that pretty near each "file offset" you'd see an error for each and every stream within their transport stream (including all the elementary video/audio streams, MPEG2 PSI (pat/PMT/etc), PSIP/EIT streams/etc/etc). But in this case, just a quick look at this error report seems to indicate only certian streams are being effected by these errors at any given time ... Which leads me to believe it's probably something on "their end", especially since the RF signal (high SNR and signal quality readings etc) seems fine, and I'd think whatever is going on is specific to the data payload and is happening before the exciter/trellis coding/etc ...

All sorts of alarms are probably going off at WKOI, but if it's STL issue maybe only really "loudly" in their Transmitter shack ....

Update: Sun 5/11/08 8pm --- Getting no Continuity/TEI errors from their Stream currently, so all appears well from them currently ....

angiecopus

05-10-08, 09:13 PM

thanks for the info that how much i know about technology, hopefully they will get it fixed before i take off my converter box.

ryan2112

05-17-08, 10:02 AM

No time warner doesnt have sdv in this area. I would guess the addition of the cable box is what authorized your new hd channels. They block espn2 and history and the others just like they block the season ticket sports packages. There's no sdv issue just greed on behalf of time warner. They clearly would prefer you rent their box for $7.95 a month versus the fcc mandated cablecard for $1.95. Anything they can do to make cablecards inconvenient the'll do.

radjago

05-21-08, 09:22 AM

hyghwayman

05-28-08, 10:21 AM

Howdy Everyone,

I have been lurking around here for a while and thought it was time to post my OTA set-up.

4 TV's, 2 annalog, 1 DTV and 1 HDTV all CRT's

My HDTV and DTV are receiving OTA signals via my home made outdoor antenna, mounted 30' up on an old antenna mast. My cable lenghts are 50' and 75'(no signal amps). The signal streanth is holding at about 98 of 100 w/ zero dropouts, even during the latest storms. I'm receiving a lot of channels;
2.1 2.2(WDTN),
5.1 5.2(WLWT),
7.1 7.2(WHIO) & 41.1 41.2(WHIO),
9.1 9.2 - 10.3 10.4(WCPO),
12.1(WKRC) 12.2(CinCW),
14.2-14.6(CinPBS),
16.2-16.6(DayPBS) & 48.1 48.2 58.3 58.4 58.5 58.6 58.7(DayPBS),
19.1(WXIX), 22.1(WKEF),
26.1(WBDT),
33.3(?),
43.1-43.5(WKIO),
45.1 45.2(WRGT),
64.1(WSTR)
= 38 digital channels:D.

My newest HM antenna build,
http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pUI5AEYeWVu9aMVG1-Sv2IiOYw1c0ziQtPlp4meq8o63yCx3WTOvatCOSbl6zSkjSINvGboLwvrA

My 2 annalog TV's are hooked up with an indoor home made antenna and the Zenith DTT900 converter boxes. I receive all of the above channels except 33.3 ?:eek:.

http://blufiles.storage.live.com/y1pUI5AEYeWVu_SEcxjbzoXsHvXzErrDK0Gn_dx6Qe3N6x3898cbeNC6hpS0 O45uesMta2hKTQK3cQ
This is the antenna that my annalog TV's are hooked to inside my boys room.

hyghwayman

P.S. I have added my Radar pic from TVFool and a pic of my newest HM antenna. Would someone look at my TVFool pic and see if there maybe something I could try, so I may receive more channels from the Cincy area.THX!

bari_old_dad

05-28-08, 09:16 PM

I'd like to upgrade my antenna - residing south of Wapak near US 33 & I-75, have been using an AntennaCraft Yagi / CM7777 / "old" Olevia HDTV with mixed success. Ft Wayne stations with the exception of their Fox affiliate come in with decent reliability, but - curiously - not the Dayton Fox or ABC stations WKEF and WBGT (?) which should be closer and higher power than, for example, Ft Wayne PBS. I get a lock every now and then, but never enough signal for more than a very limited number of consecutive frames.

I do get NBC and CBS pretty well - CBS less so since the leaves came in on big oak trees in to the south.

I've done the TVFool charts and nearly everything I'm trying to get is in the grey (less than -100 db) - but I get a fair number of these with good reliability. As Nitewatchman has advised, a person in my circumstances can't have "too much" antenna, but from my spouse's point of view, there is a limit, both financial as well as cosmetic.:(

Looking at the results of the computer simulations done by this author (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/comparing.html) , it looks like the CM4228 is king. Especially since so many of the ones I'm aiming to get are right in the channels 30-50 range. Ft Wayne NBC is down at Ch 19, but it is one of the easiest to get with the Yagi. The only VHF I think I'll ever need is WLIO, Lima NBC, which I think I could get with a coat-hanger (no offense hyghwayman).

Any reason not to think the big ferrous basket CM4228 wouldn't be the best bet for a relatively rare roll of the dice? Also, any thoughts on improving the feeds using twin baluns versus the factory-supplied combiner, as suggested here (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/cm4228.html)?

The Winegard 8-bay (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/w8800.html) is said to favor the channels below 50 (51 is the highest "distant" station I'd like to get - I get WBGU (56) almost without aiming) and is a fraction of the cost (and weight) of the galvanized steel CM4228. Too big a gamble? Anybody use one with success?

For about the same money, I could gang two PR8800's. Maybe worth a thought?

Whoa look at this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=806976)- huh

SolidSignal had an open-box XG91 for a few bucks off, so we will see how that works . . .