How will the range to the NE change with WHIO moving to a non-directional? We're up in Springfield...

I don't have too much problem getting WBDT at our place, but the power boost will be nice

Gregarius119,

Springfield should be in a Strong Signal area for both the current, and future WHIO-DT facilities. For locations where terrain is an issue however, assuming FCC approves the application and it "gets built", the higher transmit antenna height may help.

Here is service area map for the proposed WHIO-DT facilities (1000KW ERP, non DA, top mounted on their tower - 190.3 Feet higher than the current DTV transmit antenna according to info at FCC site) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT1250556.html

Here is service area map for Current WHIO-DT facilities (1000KW ERP, DA, Side mounted to tower) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DT997869.html

If this link works, here is polar plot of their current directional antenna pattern :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=67218&rotate=0.00&p0=0.894&p10=0.855&p20=0.837&p30=0.853&p40=0.907&p50=0.962&p60=0.990&p70=0.957&p80=0.902&p90=0.850&p100=0.833&p110=0.847&p120=0.883&p130=0.929&p140=0.970&p150=0.990&p160=0.976&p170=0.924&p180=0.837&p190=0.712&p200=0.551&p210=0.356&p220=0.190&p230=0.281&p240=0.370&p250=0.281&p260=0.193&p270=0.332&p280=0.532&p290=0.709&p300=0.849&p310=0.942&p320=0.990&p328=1.000&p330=0.999&p340=0.979&p350=0.939&p360=0.894&

As you can see, It's a "clover leaf" pattern(WCET-DT Cincinnati has the same pattern BTW, but it's nulls are towards the South) ---- the main lobe of the current pattern is to the NE (right towards Springfield), the biggest nulls are to the SW (right towards me and WDRB 41 analog, Louisville, KY in fact) and WSW.

Hey everyone,

I decided to make a project for the evening and moved my 42XG antenna out of the attic and onto the roof. I mounted a 5' mast on wall mounts, it sits right above the crest of our roof.

Here's the how my signals changed with what I'm picking up in Springfield - some interesting changes. I have the antenna's pointed right at the farm in Dayton.

Station Old Signal New Signal
WDTN 70 72
WHIO 79 94 *big improvement
WPTD n/a 70
WKEF 72 100 *biggest improvment
WBDT 89 100
WRGT 100 100
WKOI n/a 60
WLWT n/a 80
WSTR n/a 70

The biggest head-scratcher is that I now get Cinci's NBC affiliate better than I get Dayton's. According to TVfool, it's 26.3 miles to WDTN and 66.4 to WLWT, but my signal is much better from Cinci. I'm also really happy about my signal strengths from the other Dayton networks.

Overall I went from a total of 13 stations to 23 including the substations - pretty good upgrade for about $40 in hardware.

Odd that WDTN is rather low... Try aiming just a bit more south and see what happens. WHIO, WRGT, and WKEF might drop a hair in the process, but can "afford" to.

Those aren't signal strength readings, they are signal *quality* readings. Many issues besides "signal strength" effect the readings .....

I just stuck a Hauppauge WinTV-HVR-1250 HDTV card into my computer and must report that the reception level where I'm at in East Columbus is very good. Tonight was a good reception night and with an outdoor antenna I was able to receive all local Columbus channels PLUS WDTN, WHIO, WPTD and WKOI in HD and WPTD, WBDT and WRGT in Analog. It's a work night, but I'm sure Cincinnati would also come in loud and clear tonight if I felt like playing with the antenna.

In terms of reception, the performance of this card matches the performance of the Zenith DTT900 HDTV Converter Box. There is some clipping of the sound every now and then, but for $49.99 what do you expect?

Those aren't signal strength readings, they are signal *quality* readings. Many issues besides "signal strength" effect the readings .....

Good clarification, Nitewatchman...any idea what would be causing the signal quality degradation from WDTN as it relates to the other stations being locked on from the same area?

Any idea what would be causing the signal quality degradation from WDTN as it relates to the other stations being locked on from the same area?

Many possibilities, some I'm probably not even thinking of at the moment, and it's possible more than one issue is involved, so its difficult to guess.

One possibility may involve Multipath uncorrectable by receiver, which I'd guess is probably one of the more likely issues involved. Multipath is very frequency and transmit/receive antenna location "specific", thus what you can get Multipath wise from say WDTN-DT on 50 and WKEF-DT on 51 (transmitting from different towers, different heights on tower/etc) can be much more "different" than one might think possible ...

Probably unlikely --- especially if it's not reflected in your TVfool plot, although it's still possible you might get less signal from WDTN-DT that what TVfool says should be there at your antenna with the antenna say 15 feet to the west of where it is now :

But, Another possibility could be that your antenna may just happen to be in a "dead spot" for WDTN-DT's signal - In which case you actually would have less signal getting to your receiver from WDTN-DT than the others, even though they put out among the strongest signals in Dayton. Upper UHF wavelengths are very short, and just like multipath is often very frequency (and receive/transmit location specific) there can be dead spots for any given station here or there.

If you have a AGC reading on your receiver, you may be able to get a bit of an idea about the signal strength being picked up by the antenna by comparing the reading for WDTN-DT signals with the other Dayton stations, and if it is roughly the same, or similar, then It's likely this wouldn't be the issue. For instance, I do have AGC reading on one receiver here (internal to Sony HDTV) - It doesn't differentiate between "noise" and signal(intermodulation distortion added by a amplfier would effect it's readings for example), so you have to be careful when interpeting what it shows, but, the readings on this particular unit indicate how much the AGC circuit in the receiver is adjusting the gain of an internal amplifer --- On this particular receiver, Lower readings indicate a strong signal is being received (and therefore the AGC circuit is adjusting the amp for less gain), and higher readings indicate a weaker signal is being received(and therefore the AGC circuit is adjusting the amp for more gain).

Some of the I'd think less-likely other possibilities I can think of at present that could be involved for your lower WDTN-DT readings could involve interference, or various Receiver selectivity/ performance issues, Or I suppose possibly even involving the AGC (automatic gain control) circuit - If any of these (or multipath for that matter) is involved, then it's possible(probably likely) you would see something "different" from different receiver.

While it's also possible for low "signal quality" readings to be caused by various issues on the Station end, I don't see any sign of any such issues from any stations in the area, currently. andAs far as "signal strength" goes fro mthe transmit end WDTN-DT is transmitting 1000KW ERP, and is certianly the strongest Dayton signal at my location, Partly because I'm in a null for WHIO-DT, which also transmits at 1000KW ERP. Although certianly all of them are certianly way more than "strong enough" ...

In any case, no matter what is causing the lower signal quality readings from WDTN-DT vs the others, I wouldn't worry too much about what the numbers say as long as you are continuously getting dropout free reception of them. If you are having issues with any particular station however, regardless of what "exact" issues are causing the problem, Aiming it a bit differently(not allways necessarily "exactly" in the direction to the towers) or Moving the antenna to a different spot (higher/lower, on the other side of the house/etc) can often do wonders when these sorts of issues arise ... Some of the Newer receivers out there also offer better performance than older models as well (particularly involving handling multipath) ...

time warner added Adult HD and nothing else HD. hooray ~_~

Has anybody made the jump to AT&T's U-Verse? It looks interesting on paper, but i'm dubious about the actual quality.

Where is it really available today ?

Not available in my neighborhood yet, eastern Kettering off Stroop Road and Wagner.

There were (2) stories at daytondailynews.com, two or three days apart from one another. One was about the Dayton area and the other was for Springfield. They gave no details as to where it was available. Hell, the least they could have done was shown the reporter a live and working setup ! :)

There were (2) stories at daytondailynews.com, two or three days apart from one another. One was about the Dayton area and the other was for Springfield. They gave no details as to where it was available. Hell, the least they could have done was shown the reporter a live and working setup ! :)

Someone I work with is getting it installed today in Springboro. I also put in a Centerville zip and it said it was available. No go for me in Beavercreek Township.

A zip-code-only checker ? I must have missed that... I thought it wanted a full-blown address when I looked. Just looked again and from the main http://uverse.att.com/ page and the "Check availability" link, it wants either your phone # or full address.

A zip-code-only checker ? I must have missed that... I thought it wanted a full-blown address when I looked. Just looked again and from the main http://uverse.att.com/ page and the "Check availability" link, it wants either your phone # or full address.

I must have put in a full centerville address... Thought I only did the zip, guess not...

I must have put in a full centerville address... Thought I only did the zip, guess not...

Actually, I just found where I was able to put in only the zip code.

From the main page, go to: Start Shopping ->Select OH->Go to "View Channel Lineup"->Enter zip

When I put in my zip of 45385, i get "AT&T U-verse service is not currently available in that area. Please try another zip code. "

If I put in the Centerville zip of 45459, i get a channel lineup.

I'm sure everyone within these zip codes won't have U-Verse available to them, but it can at least give you a general idea.

Looks like it's available in 45431, but I'm happy with my Dish. My neighbors are desperate to get rid of Time Warner and can't get a clear shot for satellite due to trees. I might suggest it to them.

Not available in Enon (btwn dayton and spfld) yet, but I've heard good things about it.

I called AT&T to find out when it will be available in my neck of the woods. I am in Washington Township (Between Centerville and Miamisburg, north of Springboro). From what I am reading here, it seems to be closing in my location, but it isn't here yet. I hate TW. Absolutely HATE it and cannot use a dish due to living in a condo with nothing facing the satellites. Ugh. AT&T was very helpful in trying to assist me with my questions and already I give their customer service reps high marks, but nothing is available for me just yet. Ugh.

When I put in my zip of 45385, i get "AT&T U-verse service is not currently available in that area. Please try another zip code. "

If I put in the Centerville zip of 45459, i get a channel lineup.

I'm sure everyone within these zip codes won't have U-Verse available to them, but it can at least give you a general idea. Yeah, I've done that before but don't consider it "accurate" enough. As you say, at least one address in that zip code can get U-Verse but don't assume all can (yet).

And didn't these companies get in "trouble" for going into the more affluent areas first and leaving the lower-end areas to the end ? Mind you, I completely understand, and can't disagree with, why they target the areas the way they do.

Jfyi,

I received flyer in the mail for U-verse yesterday.

Also noted this week that now when I plug in my zip on the website
It say’s its available.

Price is slightly more than comparable service I’m already receiving from TWC
But includes 2 additional DVR set top boxes which I don’t have now
Plus lots more HD. Also would replace internet at about the same speed I have now.

My biggest concern about switching at this time is the reports of poor quality HD
I would be happy where I'm at if they added BTN-HD and SciFi-HD

I flipped to WHIO-DT this evening to watch a different news station and wanted to ask when did they start widescreen/HD weather graphics? I am not talking about the radar, but the actual graphics system that shows temps and 5 day forecast.

When WHIO got their new radar system they began doing the graphics that way.

Well, when they got the new radar, yes, those were in widescreen/HD, however, the other maps were simply SD with some blue bars on the side. Now, the maps are in widescreen/HD.

I thought WHIO was still doing widescreen SD for their newscasts... they haven't gone HD have they?

WHIO isn't doing HD, just widescreen. Still looks damn good though.

Looks like TWC added 769 the description said bejing (sp?) so I figured it was for olympic coverage. Noticed zap2it list it as USAHD

not sure if its temp or not

Just for giggles I hooked up my little indoor OTA antenna and put it outside the window behind my sony KDF-A2000 and pointed it west toward Dayton. Did a channel search for antenna and WOW--it found it! And, with a little tweaking, looks pretty good! Wife is very happy she can watch olympics in HD now. I am very surprised the little antenna(RCA) picked it up as I live in Xenia. Just thought I would share that. GO USA!!

WDTN is having a lot of problems from about 10:50 PM on tonight on the Olympics broadcast. It keeps losing the HD signal or having audio problems.

Yeah I noticed the same thing. I was switching a bit between WLWT and WDTN and it seemed like it was limited to WDTN. I've noticed the bounce between SD and HD and it seems like there's been some audio ghosting too.

Another reason to not care for WDTN...they're the only Dayton station I don't get a consistent signal from up here in Springfield.

channel 45s sound is skipping tonight, i have a great signal but the sound is acting weird.

Noticed WKEF-DT has Bengals Preseason Game in HD tonight, I think along with the Browns Game on WHIO a couple of weeks ago if I recall correctly these may be the first "non-Big network" HD programming on Dayton commercial stations ...

I decided to send emails to WRGT/WKEF, WDTN, and WHIO yesterday asking when their HD feeds would be carried by Dish Network. Currently I only have gotten a response back from WHIO, but their reply seems positive... Here is my original email and their reply:





Do you have any idea to the timeframe when WHIO-DT will be carried on Dish Network in High Definition. Currently I pull in your station OTA, but would love to be able to receive them via satellite as well. I know that WHIO-DT in HD is going to be carried on DirecTV in the October timeframe, just wondering about Dish Network.




and their reply:




Our Technical Manager believes we will have both DirecTV and Dish Network in October. He sent the technical information to both companies earlier this month. Now we waiting to see how they will proceed.



Who knows if this will lead to anything, but at least it sounds like E* is requesting info from the affilliates and they are providing it to them.

What channel numbers is the NBC Olympic Soccer and Basketball channels on TW Dayton ?

What channel numbers is the NBC Olympic Soccer and Basketball channels on TW Dayton ?

IIRC 769 is Bejing HD which has some of this on.

FWIW- On E*, the Soccer and Basketball Replay channels show up as like 098-00 and 099-00...almost like an extended local channel.

TW Dayton's website says Plus, during the Beijing Olympic Games you will have access to The NBC Olympic Soccer Channel (HD), The NBC Olympic Basketball Channel (HD), CNBC HD+* and USA HD* AND for a limited time you can enjoy a free preview of Universal HD**. The items in bold are the specific ones I'm referring to. Are they not actually carrying those ? As noted by 'greg', they're available on Dish (and DirecTV, I believe) and probably other cablecos too.

I told a co-worker that TW says they have those channels but he hasn't seen them. Of course, depending where they are in the line-up, he may miss them too.

According to my Dish Network guide, the Lions/Browns game Saturday is blacked out on NFLN. Does anyone know if there's a local/RSN that's carrying the game? Nothing else shows up on the program guide. Normal blackout rules shouldn't apply to the Dayton area for a game in Cleveland.

Edit: The games not even in cleveland, so what gives?

TW Dayton's website says The items in bold are the specific ones I'm referring to. Are they not actually carrying those ? As noted by 'greg', they're available on Dish (and DirecTV, I believe) and probably other cablecos too.

I told a co-worker that TW says they have those channels but he hasn't seen them. Of course, depending where they are in the line-up, he may miss them too.

I think this is the 769 channel... It's off the air most of the time however... I've only seen Soccer and Women's basketball on it, so I'm assuming this is what they are talking about...

DirecTV and Dish have a channel for full time soccer and full time basketball (2 channels in whole). I have only seen the BeijingHD channel on TWC, I figured they only had 1 channel that was a mix of both.

I've only seen Soccer and Women's basketball on it, so I'm assuming this is what they are talking about... There are (2) channels devoted to just soccer and basketball and as noted, they are 24-hour/day feeds. I did notice that the basketball channels was "off air" last night but took that to mean they've run out of games (though on the soccer channel they do repeats).

Sad that TW said they're (going to be) carrying the channels but in the end actually aren't...

Does anyone know if there's a local/RSN that's carrying the [Browns] game?


Dunno, but the following press release says WHIO has/is airing only the first and last Browns preseason games this year. Note: as was reported by jimp2244 in the "lost" posts, the Jets/Browns game was HD on WHIO :

http://www.whiotv.com/sports/16819292/detail.html

Has anyone had any luck in contacting WBDT about their aspect ratio issue? Recently, I added 2 digital to analog boxes to 4:3 analog tvs. This channel is basically unwatchable on both HD widescreen and analog tvs because of the stretching! I can't zoom the picture to fill 4:3 because the picture gets all cut off.

So, is there any contact information to anyone at the station? I know there was a name list on the forum before, but I have never received a response. With the digital transmission, the stretching must end.

time warner is so weird. i originally had two scientific atlantic HD cable boxes with the basic package, it was pretty sweet, hbo, hdnetmovies, etc did not work. i decided to get a DVR in one of the rooms, and now the Hd net movies etc started to work on the DVR and still did not work with the scientific atlantic hd boxes. My Scientific Atlantic Box was working crummy, so i traded it in and they gave me a PACE Box, and now HBO/showtime/ all those channels plus the HD tier works. So the PACE box in the living room has all the premiums, and the DVR in my bedroom has the high def tier that works but no HBO. pretty sweet imo, i am still paying for basic.

Something strange is going on with WDTN HD channel this afternoon. Instead of the Olympics in HD the channel has no picture and audio from what sounds like a weather channel

Has anyone had any luck in contacting WBDT about their aspect ratio issue? Recently, I added 2 digital to analog boxes to 4:3 analog tvs. This channel is basically unwatchable on both HD widescreen and analog tvs because of the stretching! I can't zoom the picture to fill 4:3 because the picture gets all cut off.

So, is there any contact information to anyone at the station? I know there was a name list on the forum before, but I have never received a response. With the digital transmission, the stretching must end.

I have tried on several occasions and got basically nothing productive out of them. The operations/programing manager there is Greg Abbott and the last thing he told me is that all he can do is forward e-mails he gets and give his opinion. I don't think there really is any "opinion" to have here. What they are doing is wrong, as in, incorrect. It's a problem that needs to be fixed but apparently they don't see it that way.

Feel free to try your hand at e-mailing Mr. Abbott. Maybe you'll have better luck than I did or maybe an influx of messages will help. Who knows, but I have given up and stopped watching the channel.

greg.abbott@daytonscw.com

WDTN having the same problems tonight. So I guess no HD for the Closing Ceremonies.

Channel 5.1 HD out of Cincinnati looks good if you can pull it in OTA.

Dunno, but the following press release says WHIO has/is airing only the first and last Browns preseason games this year. Note: as was reported by jimp2244 in the "lost" posts, the Jets/Browns game was HD on WHIO :

http://www.whiotv.com/sports/16819292/detail.html

Assuming the Browns game this Thursday is HD (as was the last one WHIO aired), we will have three HD NFL games on Thursday (8/28) night:

WLWT, WDTN - Jacksonville at Washington (national on NBC)
WKRC, WKEF - Cincinnati at Indianapolis (part of Bengals pre-season net)
WHIO - Chicago at Cleveland (part of Browns pre-season net)

Assuming the Browns game this Thursday is HD (as was the last one WHIO aired), we will have three HD NFL games on Thursday (8/28) night:

WLWT, WDTN - Jacksonville at Washington (national on NBC)
WKRC, WKEF - Cincinnati at Indianapolis (part of Bengals pre-season net)
WHIO - Chicago at Cleveland (part of Browns pre-season net)


For fans of local college football, we also have Vanderbilt at Miami on ESPNUHD Thursday (8/28) night. Hopefully I will be in Oxford for the game.

Assuming the Browns game this Thursday is HD (as was the last one WHIO aired), we will have three HD NFL games on Thursday (8/28) night:

WLWT, WDTN - Jacksonville at Washington (national on NBC)
WKRC, WKEF - Cincinnati at Indianapolis (part of Bengals pre-season net)
WHIO - Chicago at Cleveland (part of Browns pre-season net)

According to the cable guide WHIO is not covering the Browns game Thursday. WBNS out of Columbus is but not WHIO.

It looks like WHIO is carrying the Browns game on Thursday. It may not be on the guide but I just saw a commercial that said they were carrying the game.

The other big piece of news is Time Warner has come to a deal with the Big Ten Network finally and the channel will be added before the games on Saturday.

have you heard the whole truth about bt network and time warner?
i heard that you have to pay for each game with a special converter box.
i don't think they are going to add btn full time.
this comes from 610 wtvn out of columbus.
oh yeah channel 2 wdtn is acting weird. and i am using an indoor attenna.

^^^ That's part of an unrealistic offer TWC made just last week where the games were going to be PPV. Now the channel will be carried as part of the expanded basic service.

http://www.reuters.com/article/televisionNews/idUSN2628831820080826

that is good news for time warner people, my brother will be pleased.

According to the cable guide WHIO is not covering the Browns game Thursday. WBNS out of Columbus is but not WHIO.

Don't trust the cable guide; get your info here. :)

Now the channel will be carried as part of the expanded basic service. To me this seems like bad news... how many channels is TW going to have to pay for and add to everyone's service just so a few people can get a few high-profile pieces of programming a year. It seems that all you need to start a new channel these days is about 10 games that enough people want to see. Take them from an existing channel that people already get and then fill the rest of the year with trash. Then, people call the cable company and complain because they can't get their favorite team on TV and the cable company has to cave and buy the new channel.

That's part of an unrealistic offer TWC made just last week where the games were going to be PPV. I suppose unrealistic is an accurate description but I wonder, why would that be such a bad idea? If people want the games that bad they could pay a few bucks apiece to watch them. Why should the cost be spread to all cable viewers?

Sorry, I hope I don't start something here. I'm not a cable subscriber so I guess my opinion doesn't matter anyway... :)

I suppose unrealistic is an accurate description but I wonder, why would that be such a bad idea? If people want the games that bad they could pay a few bucks apiece to watch them. Why should the cost be spread to all cable viewers?

It's all about getting eyes on the product (and money). The theory behind BTN was to increase the possible viewership (which in turn will make more money). Before BTN was around you had to subscribe to a PPV package to watch games that weren't carried in your area (which made some money, but this way makes more). So if you can make the game available nationwide without subscribing to a PPV package, you've certainly increased the possible viewers (and money). Now that Comcast and TWC carry BTN, I think they've finally reached that goal (of getting more money).

The other drive to increase viewership is to help with recruiting. You can tell recruits that all of your home games will be national coverage games (and if you are a Big 2 school you can say all of your games will be a national coverage game) which is appealing to recruits because they want TV time so they can make the NFL.

The argument of cost for all subscribers is tired. Everyone pays for channels they don't want, but everyone chips in so that they can get what they do want.

JimP,

I think the questions you raised are fair ones. Cable, by its nature, has catered to "niche" interests (for example, the Lifetime and Oxygen networks cater to women). As cable has developed, those "niche" interests have become more distinct (for example, the Lifetime Movie Network caters to women who like movies).

The solution, is of course, to offer everything on an ala carte basis. Cable companies, however, have rejected this model -- probably because they think they will lose money in the end. To be fair, I think the networks don't want that either because the end result is that it reduces the number of households that receive their particular channels. The networks also don't like digital tiers because (1) not everyone has digital cable, (2) many people cannot afford a digital converter and/or the extra cost of the sports tier and (3) the number of households reached because of 1 and 2 is drastically reduced.

So, we are stuck with the model of all or nothing. I question why I have to pay for Oxygen, Lifetime, and the 20 or so other channels that I never watch, but I also know I am getting other channels, like ESPN, for a relative bargain (as to me it is worth much more than the $2 or so per subscriber that ESPN is charging the cable company for).

I happen to like the Big Ten Network, not just for the football games, but for the other sports (basketball, hockey) and the "classic" games it airs. In fact, I switched from TWC last year partly because of it.

^ Yes, although you have to consider, when you call ESPN a bargain, that you are not paying $2 a month for it. To figure out how much you are paying for it, you would have to divide your total cable bill by the number of channels that you actually watch. You could weight the channels by hours watched or something as well. For me, if I had cable, I would watch ESPN and FSN and that's about it... maybe a news network now and then but I would only watch HD also. So in order to get ESPN and FSN HD I believe that would cost me about $60 per month best case these days. If I divide that by three I would be paying $20 a month for ESPN-HD, $20 a month for FSN-HD, and $20 a month for a news network (MSNBC or CNN perhaps). That is too much money for the benefit I'd get from watching those channels, which is why I don't have cable.

Of course others may watch more TV than I do or derive more perceived benefit, so maybe cable is worth it to them. I'm not trying to say no one should have cable, I'm just saying that people should think about what they're really getting out of the money they're spending. My setup is paid for in full so I have $0 per month in TV costs, and I watch what I want in HD when I feel like it with the HD DVR. On rare occurrences there is content that I wish I could receive but can't, but I've learned to get over that pretty easily. Of course for something really important there's always a sports bar or friends house. :)

I'm a very strong proponent on getting as much content off of cable and onto free airwaves as possible, but of course it's because it would benefit me...

The solution, is of course, to offer everything on an ala carte basis. Cable companies, however, have rejected this model -- probably because they think they will lose money in the end. To be fair, I think the networks don't want that either because the end result is that it reduces the number of households that receive their particular channels. The networks also don't like digital tiers because (1) not everyone has digital cable, (2) many people cannot afford a digital converter and/or the extra cost of the sports tier and (3) the number of households reached because of 1 and 2 is drastically reduced.

On top of that in the end I don't think the customer would really want it either. With reduced headcounts, networks will be forced to increase their per customer rates. Then with fewer possible viewers, networks will lose ad revenue which again will drive up the per customer rates. If the customer chooses not to receive the shopping channels then their bill subsidies go away, again raising the bill. In the end customers will likely end up with a much higher bill and fewer channels.

Then I, as a customer, am also left to decide whether or not to subscribe to channels I may only occasionally watch. Do I want this channel that sometimes has a movie I might watch? I like having options, but certainly not if it means another $5 per month, per channel.

WHIO reported on their local news that Thursday's Browns game coverage would work like this :

WHIO-DT (on 7.1) - Entire Browns Game

WRCX-LP 40 - Entire Browns Game

WHIO 7 Analog = Browns game with Cut to DNC at 10pm


-----------

Speaking of Dayton LP's, don't know how many have noticed+don't think it has been mentioned but FWIW :

#1). WRCX-LP 40 has recently became Ion Life Affiliate. Also, WRCX has just filed with FCC for a slight increase in power, and a increase in height - Lat/long coordinates for the app likely indicate a move to a different tower at Dayton antenna farm.

#2). WWRD-LP moved from 55 to 32 several months back, I have noticed the signal is better here.

Think these have been menitioned before but as long as I'm posting :

W66AQ still has a CP buried on FCC site to move to 22 (increase power/height) and use/repurpose WKEF analog current facilities, post transition.

Following Dayton area LP's have CP's for Digital :

TBN Translator W20CL, has a CP for Digital operation -- It's for digital companion channel 24.

ThinkTV16 Translator W17AA Celina has a Flash cut Digital CP.

--------------------

Oh, on another note, WBDT-DT's post transition CP for 50KW on 26 was Granted by FCC. So far, their 770KW ERP app hasn't been granted.

WHIO-DT's Non-DA/increase height app also hasn't been acted upon, yet.

time warner is so weird. i originally had two scientific atlantic HD cable boxes with the basic package, it was pretty sweet, hbo, hdnetmovies, etc did not work. i decided to get a DVR in one of the rooms, and now the Hd net movies etc started to work on the DVR and still did not work with the scientific atlantic hd boxes. My Scientific Atlantic Box was working crummy, so i traded it in and they gave me a PACE Box, and now HBO/showtime/ all those channels plus the HD tier works. So the PACE box in the living room has all the premiums, and the DVR in my bedroom has the high def tier that works but no HBO. pretty sweet imo, i am still paying for basic.

Sounds like your new PACE box is on your account but are not activated. If you just let it go it will eventually go into disconnect status by saying your box is not authorized. Unless a CSR didn't know what they were doing. When I was a freshman in college I was actually getting Roadrunner for free for over a year until my dad called in to complain about something stupid and they found out (I was pisssed!). CSR's can do some funky things to your account. Just double check that bill when you get it.

So, we are stuck with the model of all or nothing. I question why I have to pay for Oxygen, Lifetime, and the 20 or so other channels that I never watch, but I also know I am getting other channels, like ESPN, for a relative bargain (as to me it is worth much more than the $2 or so per subscriber that ESPN is charging the cable company for).

You're not stuck with anything. Cable companies have to provide you will ala carte service (at least for analog channels). The FCC ruled on this two and half years ago and TWC put out an internal memo to all its employees that they were against it and to basically bs the custumer and talk them out of it.

The problem with this, however, you have to filter out each channel the customer doesn't want by putting a trap (basically a filter) on the cable at the telephone pole. Not only does this cost TWC money (the actual trap plus sending a tech out to put it on) but they affect neighboring channels as well. If you trap out channel 27, channel 26 may lose its audio and channel 28 maybe in black and white.

time warner is so weird. i originally had two scientific atlantic HD cable boxes with the basic package, it was pretty sweet, hbo, hdnetmovies, etc did not work. i decided to get a DVR in one of the rooms, and now the Hd net movies etc started to work on the DVR and still did not work with the scientific atlantic hd boxes. My Scientific Atlantic Box was working crummy, so i traded it in and they gave me a PACE Box, and now HBO/showtime/ all those channels plus the HD tier works. So the PACE box in the living room has all the premiums, and the DVR in my bedroom has the high def tier that works but no HBO. pretty sweet imo, i am still paying for basic.

How long have you had these boxes with almost full access? I remember when I first got TWC installed I had pretty much everything, but no access to VOD or PPV. After a few days this was automatically resolved.

CSR's can do some funky things to your account. Just double check that bill when you get it.

Yes they can, like deauthorizing your modem when you call to report that it's not getting a signal (blinking "cable" light), leaving you without Internet for several days while you try to reach a live person. Then act insulted when you call to cancel after your DSL install goes through. :)

I'm happy to hear some rumblings about HD LiL on Dish. Unfortunately where I'm located, any time the wind blows the multipath from all the trees drives the tuner crazy when trying to watch locals in digital. Currently I have no solution but to drop to SD LiL feeds on the dish when that happens. :mad:

Cable companies have to provide you will ala carte service (at least for analog channels). The FCC ruled on this two and half years ago Please provide a link to this ruling. If it's factual, it's out there. The problem with this, however, you have to filter out each channel the customer doesn't want by putting a trap (basically a filter) on the cable at the telephone pole. Not only does this cost TWC money (the actual trap plus sending a tech out to put it on) but they affect neighboring channels as well. If you trap out channel 27, channel 26 may lose its audio and channel 28 maybe in black and white. Simpler solution: Either provide or require a customer who wants this to use a set-top box.

my hbo jus died today, went into need to authorize box mode. o well, it was a nice couple days. i had it work for like ~4 months before. VOD never worked though.

TW's boxes often give you "free" channels for a few days after getting a new one. I don't know if this is intentional, i.e. show you what you could be getting, or not.

TW's boxes often give you "free" channels for a few days after getting a new one. I don't know if this is intentional, i.e. show you what you could be getting, or not.

TW'S boxes check for updates at midnight about every other night. The Boxes are setup at TW to be open and the big computer in TW land reset them.

Hi all. I won a new Hitachi Plasma HDTV and it will be my first digital/HD set.

I'm not sure whether to post in the Dayton or Cincinnati thread, since I am on TWC Southwestern Ohio (I live in northern Warren Co.).

I have a boatload of questions regarding what to do now that I have an HD set. If all this is too "one-on-one" I would be happy to take it to email if I can find someone to chat with.

Here are some of my questions.

I have heard that all HDTV sets do some level of upconversion of standard DVDs. Is this true, and if it is, will I benefit from buying a DVD upconverting player?

Is investing in a Blu-ray player worth it?

On TWC in SW Ohio, what clear QAM HD channels are provided?

I have analog cable now with TiVo. I would buy a TiVo HD and get a CableCARD for it, but I don't see TWC offering that much HD content, especially on the Basic Tier. I do not want a TWC set-top-box or DVR. Half of the HD channels listed on TWC's lineup card for "HD Basic" (3 out of 6) appear to be PBS stations!

Of the channels listed on the "Digital Standard Tier" from TWCs listing, hardly any of them are of interest to me. I'm thinking it's just not worth it to do digital and maybe I should just stay with Analog Cable and SD TiVo. Opinions?

Does anyone know of any secret words to say to get the TWC rep to offer any cheaper digital packages? I spoke to a counter rep at the Dayton Mall "Customer Care" center (lol!) who was pretty much a waste of oxygen when it came to her product knowledge and customer service skills.

Are CableCARD users limited in their ability to recieve all of the non-on-demand channels offered by TWC?

See? I TOLD you I have a lot of questions! Any helpers/sherpas out there in the vast HDTV wasteland?

I have heard that all HDTV sets do some level of upconversion of standard DVDs. Is this true, and if it is, will I benefit from buying a DVD upconverting player?

Is investing in a Blu-ray player worth it?



IMO, if you like watching movies, investing in a Blu-Ray player is 100% worth it. All BR players are also upconverting dvd players, as well. Also BR players are coming down in price rapidly. Best Buy has their Insignia brand of player on sale starting on Sun. for $249, not a bad deal if you want to get into the format.

I have heard that all HDTV sets do some level of upconversion of standard DVDs. Is this true, and if it is, will I benefit from buying a DVD upconverting player?Your TV will upconvert the input signal from the dvd player (480i or 480p) to match the native resolution of the set (720p or 1080i/p). An upconverting DVD player will convert the 480i/p to 720p or 1080i/p and then send the signal to the TV, so the TV would receive it as 720p or 1080i/p. Some TVs are better than others at upconverting. If yours is not very good then a DVD player with a good one built in may give you a better picture.

Is investing in a Blu-ray player worth it?Maybe. If you watch a lot of movies and are willing the spend the money for BD titles, it will definitely make the most of your display. BD movies are one of the best HD sources for your TV, quality-wise.

On TWC in SW Ohio, what clear QAM HD channels are provided?

I have analog cable now with TiVo. I would buy a TiVo HD and get a CableCARD for it, but I don't see TWC offering that much HD content, especially on the Basic Tier. I do not want a TWC set-top-box or DVR. Half of the HD channels listed on TWC's lineup card for "HD Basic" (3 out of 6) appear to be PBS stations!

Of the channels listed on the "Digital Standard Tier" from TWCs listing, hardly any of them are of interest to me. I'm thinking it's just not worth it to do digital and maybe I should just stay with Analog Cable and SD TiVo. Opinions?

Does anyone know of any secret words to say to get the TWC rep to offer any cheaper digital packages? I spoke to a counter rep at the Dayton Mall "Customer Care" center (lol!) who was pretty much a waste of oxygen when it came to her product knowledge and customer service skills.

Are CableCARD users limited in their ability to recieve all of the non-on-demand channels offered by TWC?I can't tell you too much about cable other than that I don't have it any more -- too happy with the HDTV I get for free over the air

Was just flipping around, and notice WBDT-DT is currently formatting AR for upconverted 4x3 SD material properly ...

Let's hope it stays that way/thanks to everyone who has contacted them about it ... I was thinking they might not start doing it right again until around the time if/when they reached an agreement with TW for cable carriage ....

^Noticed that as well. Funny that just a week ago I asked about the status of this problem and was told that the station managers decided to leave the signal "as is" (meaning they would continue the stretch). I guess they either changed their minds or something else happend.

In switching between WHIO's OTA version of the Bengals vs Ravens game and D*'s version with Sunday ticket, I think that the D* version is better. That subchannel is really causing bitstarving during fast motion, which D*'s version doesn't suffer from nearly as much. D*'s version is in mpeg4, in case you were interested.

At least you guys can get your game in HD.....:mad:

I am a Browns fan and the local Fox and CBS affiliate is more concerned with adding more stations than making even the analog versions they have watchable. The local Fox has very tinny and distorted audio when the crowd or announcer gets loud. It sounds over-driven, badly!

I have contacted the owner a couple of times, mainly back when the Superbowl and Daytona 500 were coming up, to complain. He commented that I must be getting bad reception and should upgrade my antenna. Funny, my antenna works just fine for all other channels that are local, and even better with several other Toledo and Ft. Wayne stations.

I have DirecTV and cannot get networks because of the local owners! This is so frustrating! I am hoping that I can get the CBS stations I need when it comes time for them to carry the game next week. I get 11 from Toledo, 7 from Dayton and 15 from Ft. Wayne pretty well in HD at night, but durning the day, they are spotty at best!

Any help coming?

Thanks!

I'm splitting my OTA signal 3 ways from my Silver Sensor mounted in my attic. One one of the split lines I get no dropouts on any of the main 4 networks. On the other two lines I get pretty good reception, but will have the occassional dropout.

I'm looking for suggestions on better splitters to use or amplifiers.

Currently I'm using this a 5-900Mhz Phillips splitter. I tried a $20 amplifier from lowes before the signal went into the splitter, this didn't help at all.

I'm splitting my OTA signal 3 ways from my Silver Sensor mounted in my attic. One one of the split lines I get no dropouts on any of the main 4 networks. On the other two lines I get pretty good reception, but will have the occassional dropout.

I'm looking for suggestions on better splitters to use or amplifiers.

Currently I'm using this a 5-900Mhz Phillips splitter. I tried a $20 amplifier from lowes before the signal went into the splitter, this didn't help at all.
Have you checked the coax cable? That would be my guess as the cause of your problems, especially if one line is better than another coming from the same splitter.

Have you checked the coax cable? That would be my guess as the cause of your problems, especially if one line is better than another coming from the same splitter.

The good line is the one that I ran myself (quad shield rg6). I think the other two lines, which were ran by a subcontractor, I don't think are quad shield (I don't see anything written on the cable, like the ones I ran have), but I'm not positive. In the box all the connections are tight, I haven't checked behind the wallplates yet, but I have multiple runs to each wallplate, and I've tried them all and it's the same result. The lines work fine with the satellite input, but when i switch them around to OTA I'm not getting great signal levels.

I've also tried diplexing the signal with the Satellite signal, and it's about the same (actually, the signal strength level might even be a couple of points higher)

Anyone notice WBDT-DT is running 26.2 now? What is going on at that station?

Anyone notice WBDT-DT is running 26.2 now? What is going on at that station?
Was there content on 26-2?

The good line is the one that I ran myself (quad shield rg6). I think the other two lines, which were ran by a subcontractor, I don't think are quad shield (I don't see anything written on the cable, like the ones I ran have), but I'm not positive. In the box all the connections are tight, I haven't checked behind the wallplates yet, but I have multiple runs to each wallplate, and I've tried them all and it's the same result. The lines work fine with the satellite input, but when i switch them around to OTA I'm not getting great signal levels.

I've also tried diplexing the signal with the Satellite signal, and it's about the same (actually, the signal strength level might even be a couple of points higher)

Well, I got it to work a lot better using an amplified splitter that I picked up from Home Depot.

Well, I got it to work a lot better using an amplified splitter that I picked up from Home Depot.Good to hear and thanks for letting us know what solved the problem!

Was there content on 26-2?

There is, I think they put 26.2 up sometime over the weekend(if not last week sometime). It's just a 480i SD digital simulcast of the same programming on 26.1 or analog 26 ... Some receivers may need to rescan to see it. But, except on one occasion when I checked it this morning, otherwise there hasn't been any decodable audio on 26.2 when I've checked it ...

BTW, currently, the HD video stream on 26.1 has dropped from 18 Mb/s down to 12 Mb/s, It's still CBR .... 26.2 SD video is running at 5Mb/s ....

----------------------

On another note, While flipping around looking for coverage of the pres. candidates visits to Lebanon+Dayton this morning, noticed WHIO had Dr. Phil in HD at 10am/WCPO had Ellen HD at 10am .... Being curious, checked at 4, noticed WCPO had Oprah HD(WDTN did not) /WCPO had Ellen HD .... Update: ET also HD on WHIO tonight, but Wheel Still SD (Note : WCPO has had Wheel/Jeopardy in HD for about as long as it has been available in HD) Not sure how long that's been going on ...

sorry for going "backwards"+the double posts ...

In switching between WHIO's OTA version of the Bengals vs Ravens game and D*'s version with Sunday ticket, I think that the D* version is better. That subchannel is really causing bitstarving during fast motion, which D*'s version doesn't suffer from nearly as much. D*'s version is in mpeg4, in case you were interested.

Assuming D* is using the CBS HD feed they send to affiliates+then encoding that video with AVC/H.264(MPEG4 - w/o something like an extra ~15~18Mb/s MPEG2 video encode before reencode with AVC), It's not all that surprising ST quality is better than via MPEG2 at 18Mb/s or less - especially at 15Mb/s or less, which is what WKRC-DT and WHIO are doing .... Unless something has changed, The Feed CBS sends to it's affiliates is of much higher quality (less compression/higher bitrate/etc) than what we get via OTA or cable after it's reencoded by the affiliate ...

A better comparison however would likely involve comparing ST HD feed with WBNS-DT Columbus. Unlike WHIO or WKRC, They don't multicast, and are running CBS HD video at about 18Mb/s ....

I saw this on ThinkTV website.



Digital Transition Open Houses Scheduled


This entire subject confuses many of us. To help, ThinkTV will hold two Open Houses in our studios at 110 South Jefferson Street, Dayton,
on Tuesday, September 16th at 6 p.m.
or Wednesday, September 17th
at 9:30 a.m.

ThinkTV broadcast engineers will be on hand to answer questions and demonstrate how to hook-up a digital converter box. Additional ThinkTV staff members will be available to help you apply for your government converter box coupons. In addition, programs and informational videos about the digital transition will be continuously playing. Light refreshments will be served.

Please call to let us know which Open House you plan to attend as we want to comfortably accommodate as many people as possible. Call Ame at 937-220-1612.

Anyone else getting no picture, but have sound at the start of the 2nd half of the Bengals game?

Anyone else getting no picture, but have sound at the start of the 2nd half of the Bengals game?


Winds took WHIO OIA (both digital and analog) down for a while. Not sure what the exact cause was. At the start of the NE/NJ game, they has a lengthy weather update and apologized for being off the air, but gave no details.

I read reports that WHIO on TW cable was down and the SD WHIO rebroadcast from DirectTV had up a "We know about the issue, so please don't call in" slide up.

I was getting no signal on 22-1 OTA, although DISH still had the SD feed at 7-8pm tonight. Winds have died down significantly in the past hour or two so hopefully things will be getting back to normal

I am getting a good signal from WRGT but the picture is little. Is this to accommodate the "closings" graphic? Any chance of a smaller trailer guys?

JR in Wapakoneta, OH

I am getting a good signal from WRGT but the picture is little. Is this to accommodate the "closings" graphic? Any chance of a smaller trailer guys?

JR in Wapakoneta, OHWRGT was indeed sending the SD feed last night so they could show the closings. WXIX (Fox 19) in Cincinnati was doing the same. Stations who are staying HD for these types of things include:

WLWT (NBC 5) - HD graphics overlays
WCPO (ABC 9) - HD graphics overlays
WKRC (CBS 12) - SD graphics overlays on analog 12, no overlays on digital 12-1
WHIO (CBS 7) - widescreen SD graphics overlays on HD video

Didn't get a chance to check WDTN (NBC 2) during America's Toughest Jobs to see what they were doing last night. WKEF (ABC 22) digital was off the air.

The FOX stations (WXIX, WRGT) all use the FOX Splicer and so have very limited ability to insert local graphics.

This morning during the Today show on WDTN, they put up a message saying if TWC and them don't reach an agreement by sometime in Nov. (there was an exact date, but I don't remember it), TWC customers will no longer have the analog feed. They specificly mentioned negotioations for the analog and HD feeds, so I'd fully expect TWC to begin carrying WDTN-HD by Nov. There is no way TWC could afford to let the SD feed of WDTN go off the air, and I can't imagine that WDTN would just let them have the SD feed in a new contract and not include the HD feed.

It is actually October 2nd that the WDTN feed would have to go off the air according to their site.

http://www.wdtn.com/Global/story.asp?S=8908811

Under Federal Law, Time Warner cannot carry WDTN TV 2 without an agreement. LIN TV has successfully reached agreements with nearly every cable, satellite and telecommunications company, except for Time Warner. Our agreements include providers in Dayton, such as AT&T, DISH, DirecTV, Comcast and Charter Communications, all of whom acknowledged the fair market value of LIN TV's stations. We hope Time Warner will negotiate with us so that we may reach an agreement before our contract expires on October 2, 2008.

...so I'd fully expect TWC to begin carrying WDTN-HD by Nov. There is no way TWC could afford to let the SD feed of WDTN go off the air... I strongly believe quite the opposite ! It's WDTN that can't afford to lose TW as they no doubt get the majority of their customers from cable, not OTA or satellite. I'd say OTA is their smallest source of viewers, in fact. I've said it before and I'll repeat it: If I were TW, I'd stop "negotiating" and force WDTN to give in next Nov or Feb or whatever the date is.

I strongly believe quite the opposite ! It's WDTN that can't afford to lose TW as they no doubt get the majority of their customers from cable, not OTA or satellite. I'd say OTA is their smallest source of viewers, in fact. I've said it before and I'll repeat it: If I were TW, I'd stop "negotiating" and force WDTN to give in next Nov or Feb or whatever the date is.

I'll be curious to see what happens with TWC's subscriber numbers over the next several months.

For 1, once people get their power back on from these storms and find out they don't have cable and may not for several days, they may start thinking about going with satellite. My parents never lost their power but did lose their cable, I'm guessing it will be at least a week before their cable comes back. I told them that if I had power (I don't) I'd have TV already, that peaked their interest.

2. NBC is a make or break channel for many people. It may hurt WDTN for a few months if they don't come to an agreement, but afterwards the people who tune to WDTN may move to another provider to see their shows.

I fully expect TWC to give in, as they will get all kinds of hell from their subscribers if they don't pay. They can use any excuse they like, but in the long run the customer will go to where they get what they want on TV.

I strongly believe quite the opposite ! It's WDTN that can't afford to lose TW as they no doubt get the majority of their customers from cable, not OTA or satellite. I'd say OTA is their smallest source of viewers, in fact. I've said it before and I'll repeat it: If I were TW, I'd stop "negotiating" and force WDTN to give in next Nov or Feb or whatever the date is.


I disagree completely. Think of the uproar when TWC couldn't come to an agreement with BTN. This would be a much much greater scale. People would drop TWC almost immediately and go to satellite or u-verse or start picking them up OTA. The timing of this will be a week or two into the fall television season which would make it worse.

A deal will get done one way or another before the deadline, but IMO WDTN knows that it has the upperhand in the negotiations, but neither can afford not having the other.

The same thing happened in Toledo with their NBC affiliate, and a deal got hammered out in the 11th hour.

For 1, once people get their power back on from these storms and find out they don't have cable and may not for several days, they may start thinking about going with satellite. My parents never lost their power but did lose their cable, I'm guessing it will be at least a week before their cable comes back. I told them that if I had power (I don't) I'd have TV already, that peaked their interested.


Huge perk IMO. My power came on around 3:30 yesterday (out for only 24 hours), and I was able to watch the Entourage episode I missed Sunday along with MNF.

Of course my internet and phone is still down as I have cable through earthlink via TWC and VoIP.

I disagree completely. Think of the uproar when TWC couldn't come to an agreement with BTN. This would be a much much greater scale. People would drop TWC almost immediately and go to satellite or u-verse or start picking them up OTA. I can't name a single person who dropped TW over the Big 10 Network and I know many people who are big Buckeye fans, for instance. They bitched and they moaned, but in the end, did NOTHING. How many people do you know that switched from TW to satellite ? If TW does give in, their annual rate increases are usually in January .... if I were TW, I'd have a hard time not "mentioning" one of the reasons for the increase.

Huge perk IMO. Yes, it is. All other things being equal, after a power outage, a satellite customer should be back up and watching TV within minutes whereas a cable customer can be hours if not days or a week or more.

One thing for cable customers to be aware of, after power is restored, digital service will often take a while to be repaired. Odds are, your analog service can be working, so bypass the set-top box and see. Two immediate neighbors have no digital cable, internet, or phone, but do have analog cable (we never lost power through all of this, knock on wood).

I can't name a single person who dropped TW over the Big 10 Network and I know many people who are big Buckeye fans, for instance. They bitched and they moaned, but in the end, did NOTHING. How many people do you know that switched from TW to satellite ? If TW does give in, their annual rate increases are usually in January .... if I were TW, I'd have a hard time not "mentioning" one of the reasons for the increase.


I knew a couple that did, but I agree it was more bitching and moaning. But it's a lot easier to go to your local sports bar 3 times on a saturday afternoon throughout the season then it is to find alternate ways to view primetime programming that is on every night, not to mention the highest rated morning show and network news. Also think about the soap operas not to mention Oprah that will be missed. Many, not all, WDTN viewers WILL find away to view the station regardless of whether they have carriage on TWC, therefore IMO WDTN has the upperhand :)

But again, i think the chances that WDTN actually goes off the air on TWC is about 0.1%, and the bottom line is that chances are very high that WDTN-HD will be carried on TWC when the come to an agreement on a new contract. Of course I really don't care one way or the other as I am a E* subscriber and get all my locals OTA.

WDTN had a "commentary" during their noon news about this situation...

WDTN had a "commentary" during their noon news about this situation...

Yea, I'd imagine it to be heavily publicized in the next 2 weeks. Of course it could be a week until the majority see it thanks to the storm.

I switched from TWC to Dish in January for several reasons, one of which was that I wanted to be able to DVR NBC shows in HD. I was supposed to be able to do that with the Dish DVR and my OTA since Dish doesn't have Dayton locals in HD. Yeah, right. The OTA connection within the DVR sucked. The DVR would record, but with gaps in the shows which made them unwatchable.

For that reason and several others, we switched back to TWC in July. I'm still waiting for NBC, the CW and the Big Ten Network in HD. If they screw this up, then I'm going to bail for AT&T U-verse. Our neighbor across the street is getting it installed next week (if we have power!). I'm going to check hers out and if it's anywhere as good as advertised, I'll say "Aloha!" to TWC again.

^^^Sounds like you had reception issues rather than DVR issues with the Dish Network DVR. If you had better reception of WDTN you'd likely wouldn't have had gaps in your shows.

I was supposed to be able to do that with the Dish DVR and my OTA since Dish doesn't have Dayton locals in HD. Yeah, right. The OTA connection within the DVR sucked. The DVR would record, but with gaps in the shows which made them unwatchable. Too bad, 'cause I and many others do exactly what you weren't able to do...

I switched from TWC to Dish in January for several reasons, one of which was that I wanted to be able to DVR NBC shows in HD. I was supposed to be able to do that with the Dish DVR and my OTA since Dish doesn't have Dayton locals in HD. Yeah, right. The OTA connection within the DVR sucked. The DVR would record, but with gaps in the shows which made them unwatchable.

For that reason and several others, we switched back to TWC in July. I'm still waiting for NBC, the CW and the Big Ten Network in HD. If they screw this up, then I'm going to bail for AT&T U-verse. Our neighbor across the street is getting it installed next week (if we have power!). I'm going to check hers out and if it's anywhere as good as advertised, I'll say "Aloha!" to TWC again.

My dish box was the best box I've ever had. My antenna also worked great. I switched to D* over the summer and it is great. Works just fine. You just didn't have your antenna pointed correctly. U-verse HD is supposedly not very good, even their CSRs admit to it.

In reading on the TWC/WDTN contract, I came across some more possible info that HD locals may be coming soon for Dayton on E*.


“We are trying to provide high-definition on Time Warner, but Time Warner has been unresponsive,” said Lisa Barhorst, vice president and general manager of WDTN-TV. “We have an agreement in place with every satellite, cable and telephone service in the market except Time Warner. I hope they too see the value like these other companies have and we can reach an agreement soon.”

The way i'm reading this, is that they have a HD agreement with Dish (eventhough it's not being broadcast yet, of course she may be referring to just SD), this along with the info I got from WHIO a few weeks ago makes me think that an agreement has been reached with E* for HD local carriage, but when it actually lights up? Who knows...

This was announced months ago. The parent company of WDTN came to an agreement with Dish for all of their stations. That does not mean that WDTN-DT will be on Dish any time soon.

Edit: Misread that you said who knows when it lights up. I don't expect it any time soon.

Anyone have today's Dayton Daily News ? The article, quoted below, says WDTN ran a full-page ad suggesting people switch to "the DISH network". Wonder how AT&T and DirecTV feel about that ?


DAYTON — WDTN-TV, Channel 2, is urging its viewers to call Time Warner Cable and press the company to reach a deal to keep WDTN's signal on the Time Warner network after Oct. 2, when the current agreement expires.

LIN TV Corp., owner of WDTN and 14 other TV stations in 11 markets from Buffalo, N.Y., to Austin, Texas, is trying to negotiate a new agreement to cover those stations, but Time Warner isn't responding, Lisa Barhorst, vice president and general manager of WDTN, said Wednesday, Sept. 17.

Time Warner Cable is negotiating in good faith with LIN TV and wants to reach an agreement by Oct. 2, said Robyn Watson, Time Warner's corporate director of public relations. The company has reached agreements with other broadcasters and local cable companies, Watson said.

"We are trying to manage costs for our customers, and LIN TV is trying to make some money," Watson said. "We can't allow our customers to bear the costs of the broadcasters' business models."

In an open letter posted on its Web site, WDTN urges its viewers to call Time Warner in the station's behalf.

"Time Warner charges you a fee to provide WDTN-TV 2," Barhorst wrote in the posted letter to viewers. "Time Warner shares that fee with the cable networks; however, it does not share that fee with us. In essence, it takes our signal for free and resells it for a profit.

"The fair compensation we are asking for as part of our contract negotiations with Time Warner amounts to less than a penny a day per subscriber," Barhorst wrote. "It is unreasonable for Time Warner to think that it can carry our signal without paying fair-market value, less than a penny a day per subscriber, and still charge you for it."

The payment LIN TV is requesting is similar to terms of agreements it already has with other major cable providers including AT&T, DISH, DirecTV, Comcast and Charter Communications, Barhorst said.

WDTN, Dayton's NBC network affiliate, ran a full-page advertisement Wednesday in the Dayton Daily News urging the public to consider switching to the DISH network to retain local TV signals. http://www.daytondailynews.com/b/content/oh/story/business/2008/09/17/ddn091708ch2web.html

Just noticed WBDT now has audio on 26.2 ... Also, theirHD video stream has went up to 14.32 Mb/s, SD video on 26.2 has went to 4 Mb/s ....

Anyone have today's Dayton Daily News ?



Yes, the combined "storm" edition of DDN, Mid Journal/etc ...

The WDTN/Dish ad is in there, no mention whatsoever of the availability to everyone(no subscription costs of course) of their OTA Broadcast signal ... They also list all the Dayton broadcast stations availabe via E* LiL, as well as as some E* pricing info for lower priced packages ....

^^^Sounds like you had reception issues rather than DVR issues with the Dish Network DVR. If you had better reception of WDTN you'd likely wouldn't have had gaps in your shows.

Yeah, wouldn't I feel stupid if that was the case. I am less than 10 miles from the Dayton antennae farm as the crow flies. My Samsung DLP pulls in all the signals from that direction without fail unless the source is having problems.

The issue was with the connection inside my DISH DVR (a VIP 722 if I remember correctly). The issue is well documented on the 'Net. I tried two of them with inadequate results both times. Couple that with the fact my wife missed her "free" On Demand channels that were associated with the pay channels we were getting, made the decision a little easier.

I'm guessing that if no agreement is reached with WDTN and LinTV, TW will put the NBC HD and SD channels from Cincinnati (WLWT) into the Dayton lineup .

I'm guessing that if no agreement is reached with LinTV, TW will put the Cincinnati SD and HD stations in Dayton. I asked them about this years ago and they're apparently not "allowed" to. Whose rule that is, I don't know... It may be something at the NBC level that says stations can't be carried like this in other station's areas (??).

The issue is well documented on the 'Net. Well documented ? Where ? I've NEVER heard of a bad antenna connection. Earlier versions of that DVR, actually the 622, were known to have poor-design HDMI connections, but not the antenna.

I'm guessing that if no agreement is reached with LinTV, TW will put the Cincinnati SD and HD stations in Dayton.

Guess again ;)

Per their Net/affiliate agreements, commercial stations have exclusivity for network programming within their markets. You can receive out of market stations OTA, however, no problem there if you can receive them ...

Basically Meaning, WDTN(and maybe NBC or possibly other program providers where programs are duplicated among both stations, I'm not sure about that part) would have to specifically allow TW to carry WLWT in their Dayton service areas for you to be able to get programming from WLWT which is duplicated/offered by WDTN ... I think it gets a little more complicated/fuzzier(likely involving agreeements among stations) in areas such as South Dayton area however ...

Otherwise, They could carry WLWT, but it should be "blacked out" whenever WDTN has same programming (Such as NBC), regardless of whether or not WDTN is also carried on the system ....

Yeah, wouldn't I feel stupid if that was the case. I am less than 10 miles from the Dayton antennae farm as the crow flies. My Samsung DLP pulls in all the signals from that direction without fail unless the source is having problems.

The issue was with the connection inside my DISH DVR (a VIP 722 if I remember correctly). The issue is well documented on the 'Net. I tried two of them with inadequate results both times. Couple that with the fact my wife missed her "free" On Demand channels that were associated with the pay channels we were getting, made the decision a little easier.

I have had 0 issues with my 722, 612, or 211. The only time I have had any type of problem like you describe, is when my antenna isn't positioned properly. Which is rare because it's screwed down in the attic, therefore multipath is the only time I lose reception, and therefore have "skipping" in the DVR

It looks like the "opinion" of the majority of people who've commented at the DDN's site on the above story are actually in TW's favor !

It looks like the "opinion" of the majority of people who've commented at the DDN's site on the above story are actually in TW's favor !

Seems about 50/50 to me, but I do find it funny how some people are criticizing WDTN for being to cheap to "convert" their signal to HD. Also a lot of people supporting TWC, seem to think TWC will just get their NBC feed from another station. People may support TWC right now, but if WDTN actually goes off the air for any extended period of time they won't be happy.

Yes, no doubt a lot of those posters are cable-customers and know very little outside of what TW provides them. Lots of mis-information there...

Quoting from WDTN website: "all of whom acknowledged the fair market value of LIN TV's stations."

I read that to say, "all of whom caved to LIN TV's shakedown tactics."

LIN is trying to have it both ways, to be a broadcaster with local market protection, and to be a cable content provider, thus changing the rules in the middle of the game. If they succeed in this, then I would be in favor of REALLY opening the market, and letting the FCC allow cable operators to negotiate for out-of-area broadcast stations to fill in network programming coverage.

I read that to say, "all of whom caved to LIN TV's shakedown tactics."

LIN is trying to have it both ways, to be a broadcaster with local market protection, and to be a cable content provider, thus changing the rules in the middle of the game. If they succeed in this, then I would be in favor of REALLY opening the market, and letting the FCC allow cable operators to negotiate for out-of-area broadcast stations to fill in network programming coverage.

You seem to be confused ....

I'll try to make this as simple as I can.

WDTN/LIN are broadcaster, plain and simple. They have the rights to broadcast the programming they air, which they do *directly* to Over the air viewers ...

TW, Dish, or say an OTA viewer for that matter does not simply have, or deserve the "Right" to redistrubite WDTN's signal to others "for free" just because WDTN delivers it(including NBC HD programming) "for free" via OUR(public) airwaves to anyone using OTA with an antenna ...

Also, market exclusivity isn't an "FCC issue", it's per the stations agreement with the content provider (such as NBC + WDTN's) .....

-----------

I'll give you an analogy(admittedly less than perfect) which will perhaps be a little more understandable ..

Let's say you write a book, and offer it for free for anyone visiting your website to read .... That doesn't mean you would allow a publisher to print it and sell it(and make $ off of it) for "free" ....

Just noticed WBDT now has audio on 26.2 ...


I should have waited a while before posting that as audio gone again from 26.2 ...

As is also true for 2.2 (640x480 btw), I wonder why they need 26.2/480i SD simulcast, anyway, then again I haven't paid much attention to what CW is doing as far as "4x3 safing" for center cuts of SD downconversions of their HD feed ... Then again, for the SD stuff the quality is pretty good on 26.2 (unlike 2.2), and it looks better here than their upconverts on 26.1 (which look more "overproceessed/ringy/edge enhanced/etc) ... Can't really watch it w/o audio though .....

You seem to be confused ....

I'll try to make this as simple as I can.

WDTN/LIN are broadcaster, plain and simple. They have the rights to broadcast the programming they air, which they do *directly* to Over the air viewers ...

TW, Dish, or say an OTA viewer for that matter does not simply have, or deserve the "Right" to redistrubite WDTN's signal to others "for free" just because WDTN delivers it(including NBC HD programming) "for free" via OUR(public) airwaves to anyone using OTA with an antenna ...

Also, market exclusivity isn't an "FCC issue", it's per the stations agreement with the content provider (such as NBC + WDTN's) .....

-----------

I'll give you an analogy(admittedly less than perfect) which will perhaps be a little more understandable ..

Let's say you write a book, and offer it for free for anyone visiting your website to read .... That doesn't mean you would allow a publisher to print it and sell it(and make $ off of it) for "free" ....

Jeff -

I, admittedly, am not an expert on this subject. Are you? (I'm not being snarky, but really want to know if you have the credentials to back up your statements. I give a lawyer much more credibility than a layman when it comes to legal matters. :) )

I don't think it is as simple as you suggest.

The origins of the cable industry were CATV (community antenna television) where folks, and later companies, put up high-quality antenna and distribution systems to share the expense of receiving over-the-air TV. In those early days, there were no cable networks and no one paid anyone for the "right" to carry a broadcast signal. It was a shared antenna, nothing more. One school of thought holds that the CATV analogy should still hold as it pertains to over-the-air stations.

As CATV morphed into the cable industry of today, the FCC got involved, and instituted, among other things, "must carry" rules, so that cable operators (now ONLY corporations) could not shut out local stations from those viewers that relied on cable.

I still hold the opinion that WDTN is using shakedown tactics, smelling revenue where there has historically been none for true broadcast stations.

As for your book analogy, If I wrote a book and decided to publish it for free on my website, I would not expect Time Warner to come to me and say, "We're delivering xxxxx viewers to your website, and while they are there, they might view your advertising or website shop, for which you are making a profit. Give us some of that profit, or we'll block your site from our Road Runner customers." In fact, that very thing may come to pass if Congress does not enact unambiguous Net Neutrality legislation.

- Earl
Facts are to the best of my knowledge.
Opinions are mine alone.

I don't think it is as simple as you suggest.


I simplified as much as possible, nevertheless the info I provided is accurate.

The issue has been went over+hashed and rehashed over again and again on this very forum over the years. I do not have the time or motivation to repeat it, or to clairify how negotiation between MVPD's and broadcasters for Retransmission Consent works, or to debate or discuss or cite/quote/detail or provide links to all the relevant info/available documents involved.

But here's one of the threads in programming area that contains much of the info+differing opinions and viewpoints involved :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=500356



I still hold the opinion that WDTN is using shakedown tactics, smelling revenue where there has historically been none for true broadcast stations.


The times have changed, and LIN/WDTN aren't the only ones doing this ...

Update -- Oh, almost forgot :


I, admittedly, am not an expert on this subject. Are you? (I'm not being snarky, but really want to know if you have the credentials to back up your statements. I give a lawyer much more credibility than a layman when it comes to legal matters. )


With all due respect, If it were me, I would be more concerned about whether or not the statements and information I post here are accurate vs. asking others what their credentials are or what they do for a living ...

Anyone who claims themself to be an "expert" usually isn't in my experience .....


The origins of the cable industry were CATV (community antenna television) where folks, and later companies, put up high-quality antenna and distribution systems to share the expense of receiving over-the-air TV. In those early days, there were no cable networks and no one paid anyone for the "right" to carry a broadcast signal. It was a shared antenna, nothing more ......

...... As CATV morphed into the cable industry of today, the FCC got involved, and instituted, among other things, "must carry" rules, so that cable operators (now ONLY corporations) could not shut out local stations from those viewers that relied on cable.


So I don't sound like a complete "stick in the mud" I will say All of the above portion of your post is correct information, however, the historcial "record" of how CATV "came to be" is not really relevant to a stations' right to negotiate for cable carriage via Retransmission consent rules ...

For cable carriage, A qualified station can invoke must carry (*THEY* have to ask for it), or, if they want their signal on cable, negotiate via Retransmission consent rules(which can involve $$$, there's nothing wrong with that) ....

CFR 47, sec 76.64, current version available here Deals a bit with Retransmission consent :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2008/76/64/

Paragraph (a) states :


(a) After 12:01 a.m. on October 6, 1993, no multichannel video programming
distributor shall retransmit the signal of any commercial broadcasting
station without the express authority of the originating station, except as
provided in paragraph (b) of this section.

Earl,

Maybe it would help to think of it this way...

If you are a cable subscriber, you are paying they cable company for the service they provide you. In order for you to pay for this service, it has to be worth it to you. If Time Warner did not have any of the local channels (no NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX, MyTV, CW, PBS, ION, etc.) would it still be worth as much to you -- would you still be willing to pay the same monthly fee that you do now? If the answer is no (and it is for just about every cable subscriber out there) then you can see that one of the largest benefits cable provides is the local channels. Why should Time Warner be able to profit from these services without providing compensation for the right to carry them?

The Golf Channel, ESPN, ESPN2, MSNBC, CNN, FOX News, MTV, VH1, FSN.... all of these channels get paid by Time Warner for the right to distribute them. Each of these networks also make money off of commercials and other forms of advertising. Why should the local nets be treated differently?

It sounds like you are suggesting that there be some law that says local networks have to give Time Warner their signal for free... is that really what you think should happen?

Maybe you just don't like the idea of having to pay for something that you could just get for free. Paying Time Warner a monthly fee to provide me with the local channels that I can get for free OTA anyway seems like a silly thing for me to do, so I get mine with an antenna. ESPN-HD and FSN-HD aren't worth $60 a month to me so I don't subscribe to cable anymore.

ESPN charges $3.65 per month per subscriber*, and still has just as many commercials as a local net. WDTN wants 30 cents, and the number of people who watch NBC absolutely dwarfs the number who watch ESPN.

*Source: http://www.multichannel.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6555289

Maybe you just don't like the idea of having to pay for something that you could just get for free. Paying Time Warner a monthly fee to provide me with the local channels that I can get for free OTA... My take on it is, Time Warner is providing a "service" that includes the local channels (and more, depending on what you subscribe to). If people truly want the channels for free, they'd settle for the limited channel choices as well as pay for an antenna, installation of that, and so on. The vast majority of people do NOT desire that option though.

Time Warner has their "lifeline" package, which costs less than $10/month. How much profit do they make with that ? I realize no one knows, of course. Presuming the channels in that line-up invoked "must carry", TW pays them *nothing*, correct ?

Did anyone else notice that all of their programming was in HD last night EXCEPT The Office?

What's up with that? Earl was in HD, the commercials were in HD, and ER was in HD immediately following. I can't imagine the week before the season premiere that NBC was giving out an SD feed for one of the top shows in their lineup.

Hope whatever it was is resolved before next weeks premiere!

PS...I was watching OTA through my E* DVR box...

... If people truly want the channels for free, they'd settle for the limited channel choices ....

I use OTA primarily for TV, but also currently subscribe to E*, but W/O LiL service ....


..... as well as pay for an antenna, installation of that, and so on.


How much did your OTA antenna installation cost?

BTW, There was a story last week on WHIO news about a lady who hooked up a short wire to the back of her TV to use as an antenna after her power came up in order to watch TV while the cable was out ... They showed a pic of her TV screen at the time, what appeared to be analog 7 was coming in quite well (just a bit of ghosting) ....

WHIO currently has Browns up in SD well into the second quarter... Steelers in HD on WKRC

Called WHIO at 937-259-2237 and was told that "CBS is not providing the game in HD" which is not true as CBS has all games in HD this year... I don't mind if they are having problems but don't like being lied to...

I'm watching the game on Sunday Ticket in HD. Actually, watching it on Red Zone Channel HD, but the game is in HD when they switch to it.

WHIO currently has Browns up in SD well into the second quarter... Steelers in HD on WKRC

Called WHIO at 937-259-2237 and was told that "CBS is not providing the game in HD" which is not true as CBS has all games in HD this year... I don't mind if they are having problems but don't like being lied to...

Been through that before, but, I'd guess whoever you talked to probably wasn't knowingly "lying" outright, so to speak .....

From your post in the CBS/NFL thread programming area :


...[whio] Went so far to say that it said "loss of signal" on the HD feed from CBS.


It's possible They might have been being straight with you on that to some extent(and it's possible that the issue might not have completely been on WHIO end), as I think this may be around the time of year the alignment of Sun/Satellite/Dish can cause problems over a short period of time, depending upon where the receive location is .....

^In any case, it's in HD now in the 3rd quarter.

It's possible They might have been being straight with you on that to some extent(and it's possible that the issue might not have completely been on WHIO end), as I think this may be around the time of year the alignment of Sun/Satellite/Dish can cause problems over a short period of time, depending upon where the receive location is .....

Yeah, I can understand if they have issues or something "goes wrong" or whatever. It was just that the lady walked into the room with the person on the master switch, and told me that there was no problem, but that CBS was not feeding the game in HD. I do appreciate her effort to go and find out, it was just that what she told me, even after I discussed with her and tried to clarify, was not the truth. No big deal just rubbed me the wrong way :)

jimp2244,

Oh, I've had the same thing happen (actually while talking to the MCO directly on one occasion involving a SEC game), except that In the specific cases involved the same programming airing on multiple net affilates I receive in the area was involved and on a couple of occasions concerning WHIO I was able to say "That's funny, as I'm watching it currently in HD on WKRC/etc" .... On one of those occasions, the MCO switched it to the HD feed while I was still on the phone ...

In any case, thanks for going extra mile ..

Yeah, I can understand if they have issues or something "goes wrong" or whatever. It was just that the lady walked into the room with the person on the master switch, and told me that there was no problem, but that CBS was not feeding the game in HD. I do appreciate her effort to go and find out, it was just that what she told me, even after I discussed with her and tried to clarify, was not the truth. No big deal just rubbed me the wrong way :)

I wasn't paying too much attention to the Browns game until the start of the 3rd quarter and noticed WHIO had it in SD. I rotated my antenna towards Columbus and WBNS was in HD. Just to double check, I re-tuned WHIO on the back side and it was also in HD, so I caught it right at the switch. So I wasn't able to verify if it was network or WHIO issues.

Where will advertising fall into this, i.e. what percent of WDTN's revenue comes from local advertising, and would the lose of TW viewers directly effect that revenue?

I wasn't paying too much attention to the Browns game until the start of the 3rd quarter and noticed WHIO had it in SD. I rotated my antenna towards Columbus and WBNS was in HD. Just to double check, I re-tuned WHIO on the back side and it was also in HD, so I caught it right at the switch. So I wasn't able to verify if it was network or WHIO issues.
It was WHIO. Other stations had the game in HD:

Local issue. It's HD from WTOL-DT in Toledo OTA.

what percent of WDTN's revenue comes from local advertising Historically, all of their revenue came from advertisers. With cable, if a station requested to be carried, it was "free" for the cable company. The satellite providers could have the same deal but I doubt it. Even if they pay, it probably doesn't amount to a lot. and would the lose of TW viewers directly effect that revenue? Absolutely ! If I'm a company running advertising, I'll pay "x" dollars per viewer. I've seen reports that suggest cable penetration is around 60% or so, satellite is 25-30%, and OTA is 10-15% nowadays. A lot of people disagree with me, but I say that WDTN is desperate but being hard-nosed about it. They simply want it both ways.... I really wish TW would hold out and make WDTN/LIN cave in. Of course, even if they do, the press releases will indicate nothing of the sort.

I say that WDTN is desperate but being hard-nosed about it. They simply want it both ways.... I really wish TW would hold out and make WDTN/LIN cave in. Of course, even if they do, the press releases will indicate nothing of the sort.
Haha... I hope WDTN/LIN holds out and TW caves in :)

Haha... I hope WDTN/LIN holds out and TW caves in :)


So do I, and I think that's what will happen... WDTN has the advantage of advertising that they are available via OTA, Dish Network, UVerse (they don't every say DirecTV, because I think NBC has some sort of deal with E*, after seeing that SNF was sponsered by them)... On TWC's website they say if they drop WDTN you can watch NBC programming on nbc.com... Advantage WDTN...

WDTN will have their HD feed on D* next month. OTA, D*, and Uverse will be the locations for their HD feed.

WDTN will have their HD feed on D* next month. OTA, D*, and Uverse will be the locations for their HD feed.

Yea, but I'm wondering if NBC has some sort of deal with E* and that's why WDTN doesn't advertise that their viewers can switch to D* to receive them.

Yea, but I'm wondering if NBC has some sort of deal with E* and that's why WDTN doesn't advertise that their viewers can switch to D* to receive them.

Fully understand, just wanted to point out that D* will have the WDTN-DT feed on their satellite within the month of October. They also will have WHIO-DT, WKEF-DT, and WRGT-DT.

It is strange how WDTN is advertising so heavily in favor of Dish, though they wisely don't mention that WDTN-DT isn't available with Dish (directly). They sorta mention U-Verse, but NO mention of DirecTV at all. There HAS to be a deal of some sort.

Yep, the agreement with Dish was announced March 13th. Here's the link:

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20080313005536&newsLang=en

Basically it announces the retransmission agreement and Lin TV's commitment "to encourage consumers to switch to DISH Network if Lin TV’s local station signal is removed from a cable system".

I'm not a fan of TWC but I tend to appreciate their side of the argument. They've been carrying WDTN for a long time (for free) and now Lin comes along demanding $1.8M a year (my guesstimate). What?!! From zero to 1,800,000??? I think I'd fight it too.

By the way, here's how I come up with my guesstimate:

Approx 500,000 cable subs X $.01 per sub X 30 days/month X 12 months/year = $1,800,000

This article, http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2008/09/17/ddn091708cableweb.html?cxntlid=inform_artr, says they've got 650,000 in the Dayton-Cincinnati area.

Maybe this is old news, but tonight is the first night I've seen Wheel of Fortune in HD on WHIO.

Here's hoping WDTN gets Jeopardy in HD soon too!

It is strange how WDTN is advertising so heavily in favor of Dish, though they wisely don't mention that WDTN-DT isn't available with Dish (directly). They sorta mention U-Verse, but NO mention of DirecTV at all. There HAS to be a deal of some sort.

I hear that the local pick-up for Dish is in the WDTN-tv building.

Hall, thanks for the info. The next few days should be very interesting.

I was kinda chagrined that the radio ad's I've heard about WDTN mention that Dish has WDTN and Dish has TurboHD, but they don't mention that Dish doesn't have WDTN in HD (or any of the other locals).

The fact that it's all contained in the same ad is kinda misleading. If I signed up for Dish under the impression that I'd be getting the locals in HD and didn't...you can bet I'd be pretty upset regarding E*'s apparent lack of communication about when Dayton HD locals will be going live.

Those interested in the WDTN/TW "issue" and LIN's financial situation including info on Ad Revenue, and info on increased revenue from Retransmission Consent fees, including from several major cableco's(just not TW) may want to read through the following document ....... Also note the "marketing" deal between E* and LIN in markets where LIN stations may be removed from cable systems is also described under the "Digital and Interactive Initiatives" section :

http://www.lintv.com/investor/images/pdfs/quarterly_reports/LIN%20TV%20Corp%20Announces%20Second%20Quarter%20Operating%2 0Results.pdf


WDTN has the advantage of advertising that they are available via OTA ...


Personally, I'm not surprised that I'm not seeing any- (* - update) sign of them having interest in doing that, either on air, or per the info in following documents :

http://www.lintv.com/news/images/PDFs/news_releases/TVL%20-%20LIN%20TV%20Announces%20Retransmission%20Contract%20with%2 0Time%20Warner%20Expires%20October%202,%202008%20-%209-15-08.pdf

http://www.wdtn.com/Global/story.asp?S=8908811

* Update: My mistake .... I missed it at first, but indeed The bit on WDTN site does mention antenna an "alternate" means to receive them, good for them, as otherwise, IMO, it might add fuel to the fire of those who think of broadcasters as "spectrum squatters" ...

Lost the TV Guide info on my Pioneer Elite the other night and was wondering if anyone knows if the station is not broadcasting the "guide" info?

Been working for months with no issues until this week. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

John

Seems awfully "quiet" in here today regarding discussion on the TW/LIN carriage dispute issue....

So Some more good reading regarding broadcasters seeking retrans consent fees here :

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6575703.html

A short quote from above article :

"A blackout covering several months can cost a local cable system as much as 10% of its subscribers, who bolt to a satellite TV platform to get a highly viewed local TV station that is off cable."

I wonder what lost revenue from 10% of 650,000 cableco subscribers is ? .....

Let's "pretend" the average subscriber lost pays TW $30 a month ... 650,000 x 10% = 65,000 .... 65,000 x $30 = $1.95 Million per month ... Of course, I have no idea of the real numbers a average sub pays, and how much of that goes to retrans consent fees to cablenets and other broadcasters they carry, or also to cableco operating costs ...

Lost the TV Guide info on my Pioneer Elite the other night and was wondering if anyone knows if the station is not broadcasting the "guide" info?


sorry I missed your post before posting above post, as I probably wouldn't have posted it(or would have waited until Later) if I had ...

Anyway, I don't know if this is related or not, and DTV insider probably has better info but FWIW, I did notice the other morning WPTD analog was off air at times and/or (at times) transmitter was up, but the signal wasn't "proper" so to speak ....

Do note that if you're using OTA to receive it, when the analogs go off air on Feb 17, CBS digital affiliates (including WHIO) currently transmit(OTA, don't know if cableco carries those streams) the TVGOS info(I can't verify if it's "working" or not, but I know the streams for it are there), but your equipment would have to support it via ATSC(DTV) (instead of via the analog signal) ....

I don't know if the PBS stations will send it via DTV, or via cable whatever feed from them cableco uses for analog service(required until 2012 either via a analog signal via cable or providing customers with analog TV's with convertors), again DTV insider or someone else may know more ...

^I'm still trying to figure out how all of the TVGOS stuff works. My guide has added more and more distant stations especially over the summer. I have listings for Cleveland stations, stations in Tennessee and some even further. My guess is that my TV briefly (long enough I suppose) received a station transmitting guide data from one of these distant areas with the aide of some tropo.

Seems awfully "quiet" in here today regarding discussion on the TW/LIN carriage dispute issue....

So Some more good reading regarding broadcasters seeking retrans consent fees here :

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6575703.html

A short quote from above article :

"A blackout covering several months can cost a local cable system as much as 10% of its subscribers, who bolt to a satellite TV platform to get a highly viewed local TV station that is off cable."

I wonder what lost revenue from 10% of 650,000 cableco subscribers is ? .....

Let's "pretend" the average subscriber lost pays TW $30 a month ... 650,000 x 10% = 65,000 .... 65,000 x $30 = $1.95 Million per month ... Of course, I have no idea of the real numbers a average sub pays, and how much of that goes to retrans consent fees to cablenets and other broadcasters they carry, or also to cableco operating costs ...


I'd imagine that the average TWC subscriber pays more around $50 a month... I'm guessing there are very very few who just have the lifeline package, and doesn't it cost ~$45 or something for standard analog cable?

I really believe that TWC stands a lot to lose, but again I also believe a deal will get done in the last hour. We are only a week away, should be interesting...

Seems awfully "quiet" in here today regarding discussion on the TW/LIN carriage dispute issue.... I'd say that most people simply don't care (anymore). The people who have TWC and don't get WDTN have probably just given up. Those who really want WDTN-DT did something about it...

[QUOTE=Jon;14733907]Lost the TV Guide info on my Pioneer Elite the other night and was wondering if anyone knows if the station is not broadcasting the "guide" info?

Been working for months with no issues until this week. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

I checked WPTD-TV analog vertical interval for the TV Guide information and it was not on. Talked to the engineering dept. at WPTD-TV the problem is with the box that insert the data is not receive the information from the National Data Center.


Also the the main transmitter is off (burnt up transmission line and elbow) on the 30 year old back-up. I bet the engineers in the area cannot wait for Feb. 2009.

Maybe this is old news, but tonight is the first night I've seen Wheel of Fortune in HD on WHIO.

Here's hoping WDTN gets Jeopardy in HD soon too!

I checked it out last night, wasn't in HD. Not sure why they would have Wheel in HD on Tuesday but not on Wednesday...

I'd say that most people simply don't care (anymore). The people who have TWC and don't get WDTN have probably just given up. Those who really want WDTN-DT did something about it...

Just to second this statement... My wife and I have an antenna set up to the TV to watch WDTN in HD, it's a pain in the butt to switch over, but its something we know we have to do when we want to watch NBC in HD. Sure, it's a defeatist attitude, but when we HAVE to have TWC (no dish access, nothing else in the area, etc.) it is what it is. I can't WAIT to get rid of TWC as soon as we are able to... Simply AWFUL.

...it's a pain in the butt to switch over, but its something we know we have to do when we want to watch NBC in HD...

That's one of the (many) nice things about my TiVo. I have both my antenna and the cable going into it, so I can have a unified tv guide and I don't need to do anything to switch from cable to antenna (except change the channel). I love my TiVo's...!

The funny thing about the retrans issue is that if/when TW agrees to pay the fee, they could turn around and charge twice as much to the consumer ($.02) and most people wouldn't even notice! However people will definitely notice not being able to watch Heroes, The Office, ER, etc and they will walk away. TW would be extremely foolish to risk losing subscribers over this.

I'd say that most people simply don't care (anymore). The people who have TWC and don't get WDTN have probably just given up. Those who really want WDTN-DT did something about it...

Sure, like watch the analog version. The trouble is, if I understand correctly, that WDTN will be completely gone from TWC. There will be a lot more noise from the subscribers if TWC loses WDTN all together.

Sure, like watch the analog version. The trouble is, if I understand correctly, that WDTN will be completely gone from TWC. There will be a lot more noise from the subscribers if TWC loses WDTN all together.


I also think if TWC doesn't get a deal before 10/2, and people start complaing then LIN will have even more bargaining power and may ask for more... The complaints will be well documented on DDN, so they will know how much TWC subscribers want WDTN...

but again I also believe a deal will get done in the last hour. We are only a week away, should be interesting...

Yes, and of course the same thing happened with Sinclair(owns WKEF/Operates WRGT) + TW not all that long ago ... While the details of retrans consent agreements(and for instance any such details that might be specific to specific stations/markets involved) are private matters, nevertheless the press on it at(see sinclair/Cable carraiage thread I posted link to earlier) the time certianly indicated that TW "caved", so to speak ...

Although, then again the B&C article I posted link to cited examples where the stations involved were off cable for several months before a deal was reached. If that happens with LIN/WDTN, perhaps we might just see TW suggesting subscribers use an antenna for NBC(and for those with analog TV's a DTV converter box if this goes past feb 17) to receive WDTN and their cable service for everything else rather than switch to DBS ...

I do recall not all that long ago the "cable lobby" was talking about adding ATSC/OTA reception capability to cable STB's to "combat" this issue, but It doesn't seem like it's something they actually went through with ...


I bet the engineers in the area cannot wait for Feb. 2009.


The ones I've talked to are very much looking forward to Feb 18 ...


The trouble is, if I understand correctly, that WDTN will be completely gone from TWC.


You understand correctly. This is about the analog signal(which will be gone Feb 18, anyway), too ...

[QUOTE=Jon;14733907]Lost the TV Guide info on my Pioneer Elite the other night and was wondering if anyone knows if the station is not broadcasting the "guide" info?

Been working for months with no issues until this week. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

I checked WPTD-TV analog vertical interval for the TV Guide information and it was not on. Talked to the engineering dept. at WPTD-TV the problem is with the box that insert the data is not receive the information from the National Data Center.


Also the the main transmitter is off (burnt up transmission line and elbow) on the 30 year old back-up. I bet the engineers in the area cannot wait for Feb. 2009.

Thanks for the quick response!

I thought the Tv Guide was a gimmick when I bought the Tv but after using it for almost a year it is really convenient to just hit a button and have all the local channel info at my finger tips.

Do you know if the station plans on repairing the unit? If so do you know how long the system will be down?

Thanks again for your support,
John

yeah, i'm not really angry about losing NBC, those who really *care* about HD programming will never watch NBC SD feed and have found a way to get the HD feed of some of their NBC shows. (wether it be air like i do, or downloading them.), still i can only imagine how much this would anger the regular ppl, espically people who plug the cable directly into their TV and have no STB.

yeah, i'm not really angry about losing NBC, those who really *care* about HD programming will never watch NBC SD feed and have found a way to get the HD feed of some of their NBC shows. (wether it be air like i do, or downloading them.), still i can only imagine how much this would anger the regular ppl, espically people who plug the cable directly into their TV and have no STB.


The thing is majority of TWC customers don't really care about HD programming, and they therefore watch the SD feed on TWC and don't seek alternate methods.

Noticed the other night (Sunday I think) WRGT had CSI:NY 16x9 ...

I was 1/2 asleep at the time, so not sure if it was HD, but it was definitely 16x9 ...

Edit: Oh, BTW, WDTN(currently) has changed their info on their website on the TW carriage issue -- Now it's a "Know the facts" type document :

http://www.wdtn.com/Global/story.asp?S=8908811

I meant to post the wording from Time Warner's "rebuttal" ad in Sunday's paper. Still have the paper at home so maybe I will yet...

I have to say, as much as I despise Time Warner, I still think WDTN's commentary, TV ads, and now this letter sound like whiney-a** little children. The article in Monday's DDN said they only started real negotiations within a week or two. Everything prior was more or less e-mail, letters, or faxes back and forth (??).

Fact 1: Time Warner could say they're not charging for the channels themselves, but the "service" they provide by getting the channels to you.

Fact 2: (They must need to fill space) Has there been any suggestion that TW will "unlawfully" carry WDTN without a contract ? TW has said the channel will be gone, not that they'll be pirate re-broadcasters !!

Fact 4: Any provider of a service can most certainly blame any entity that raises their rates and in turn causes a rate increase to their end-users.

Fact 8: Still no mention whatsoever of DirecTV (???). Hell, D* will be carrying Dayton's locals, including WDTN, in HD this month, as I recall.

Fact 2: (They must need to fill space) Has there been any suggestion that TW will "unlawfully" carry WDTN without a contract ? TW has said the channel will be gone, not that they'll be pirate re-broadcasters !!I think they are just pointing out that Time Warner doesn't have the inherent "right" to carry WDTN without LIN's permission.

Fact 8: Still no mention whatsoever of DirecTV (???). Hell, D* will be carrying Dayton's locals, including WDTN, in HD this month, as I recall.

http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20080313005536&newsLang=en

In addition, DISH Network and LIN TV have reached a new marketing and promotional agreement to encourage consumers to switch to DISH Network if LIN TV’s local station signal is removed from a cable system. The parties will jointly market LIN TV’s availability on DISH Network so viewers will have the opportunity to continue watching their favorite local news and programming.


Therefore, they are probably not allowed to advertise D* as an additional option...

DDN has another article up on the situation: http://www.daytondailynews.com/b/content/oh/story/business/2008/09/30/ddn093008ch2web.html

It really amazes me the misinformation the posters on there have (well not really...)

The "agreement" between Dish and LIN has been posted before. My point is, it's certainly not an exclusive promotional agreement as they're mentioning AT&T U-Verse. I'm not a DirecTV customer either.

The "agreement" between Dish and LIN has been posted before. My point is, it's certainly not an exclusive promotional agreement as they're mentioning AT&T U-Verse. I'm not a DirecTV customer either.

I'm guessing E* is the exclusive DBS provider they can promote... Only thing that makes sense as to why they aren't talking about D*

Here's Time Warner's ad from last Sunday's Dayton Daily News:

Time Warner Cable is working hard to keep Channel 2 WDTN on your channel lineup.

But LIN TV Corporation could pull this channel on October 2nd.


Time Warner Cable is negotiating with LIN TV Corporation, the parent company of WDTN, to keep your favorite shows on your lineup.
WDTN is trying to make up for lower ratings and advertising revenue by adding fees that will fall, ultimately, on the backs of our cable customers. We don't believe that you should be forced to subsidize WDTN's costs by paying for programming that you can get for free with an antenna or online.
If we cannot reach a fair and reasonable agreement with LIN TV Corporation by October 2, 2008, WDTN will take it's channel from your lineup.
In the event that this happens, many of your favorite shows like: 30 Rock, The Office, The Tonight Show with Jay Leno, Heroes, and Chuck can be viewed on the NBC network website.
Questions ? Call 1-800-425-2225 or visit www.twdayton.com

This is from WDTN's website in a letter dated tomorrow sounds like they have given up on a last minute deal and are prepared for the channel to be turned off some time tomorrow.

October 2, 2008

Dear Time Warner Cable subscriber,

Time Warner's contract to carry WDTN-TV on its cable system expires today, and Time Warner will no longer have the right to carry our programming as of midnight tonight. Time Warner will cease carrying WDTN-TV sometime today, although we do not know the exact time, and at that time you will no longer be able to watch WDTN-TV and your favorite TV shows.

Please know that we are upset about the outcome of our negotiations and the fact that our loyal viewers will no longer be able to watch their favorite programming on Time Warner's cable system. We have tried in earnest for two months to reach an agreement with Time Warner. The fact that we have agreements with every major cable, satellite and telecommunications company, except for Time Warner, makes the failure to reach an agreement with Time Warner even more frustrating.

We will continue to attempt to negotiate an agreement with Time Warner, but we do not know if, or when, we will reach an agreement so that you will be able to watch WDTN-TV's valuable programming and around-the-clock reporting of news, politics, traffic, weather emergencies, and public service announcements. We are asking Time Warner to pay fair market value for our programming, and our programming should not be free to one of the largest cable companies in the nation who wants to take our signal and resell it to you for a profit.

Cable is not a monopoly any more! We hope you will continue to watch WDTN-TV through alternative means, such as using an antenna or switching to a satellite service such as DISH Network. Time Warner subscribers who make the switch to DISH Network will receive a $50 incentive from DISH Network! You can contact them at: (888) DISH-950. AT&T's U-verse service is available in many areas of Dayton. To learn more about your choices, please visit the links provided on this web page.

Please call Time Warner and tell them you do not want to lose WDTN-TV. Time Warner's phone number is 513-489-5000.

Thank you for supporting local television.

Lisa Barhorst
President & General Manager
WDTN-TV

Here's Time Warner's ad from last Sunday's Dayton Daily News:

Low ratings and "your favorite shows" seems somewhat contradictory...

So... is WDTN now off Time Warner? I figured someone here would have a countdown and report what happened at midnight! :)

It appears that October 22nd is the day that all the Dayton locals go live on DirecTV.

So... is WDTN now off Time Warner? I figured someone here would have a countdown and report what happened at midnight! :)

I was under the impression that the contract ended at midnight last night as well. But from the way the new article is worded on the DDN website, I'm led to believe that the contract goes through today, and will be turned off at midnight tonight if no agreement is reached...

From the way the new article is worded on the DDN website, I'm led to believe that the contract goes through today, and will be turned off at midnight tonight if no agreement is reached...
Thanks. I guess that means we can still have a countdown!

I wouldn't get too excited about WDTN dropping from TWC. There exists a possibility that a temporary agreement can be reached that will keep them on TWC for the time being.

See Sinclair vs. Suddenlink
http://www.redorbit.com/news/entertainment/593264/abc_fox_stations_on_cable_for_now_companies_announce_a/index.html

I'm more "excited" about the fact that something is going to happen today... whether it's a new agreement reached, a temporary agreement reached, or no agreement/removal of WDTN from Time Warner.

That article is about Sinclair-owned stations, not LIN TV ones. DDN articles have mentioned that in prior instances, the stations have in fact went off-cable for weeks or months. There was no "let's keep it on while we work out the details". If they can't agree, take it off ! Then we'll see who caves first, i.e. who "loses" money faster.

That article is about Sinclair-owned stations, not LIN TV ones. DDN articles have mentioned that in prior instances, the stations have in fact went off-cable for weeks or months.

Yes, I get that and was one of the reasons I pointed it out, but it is within the realm of possibilities that a temporary agreement can be reached even if LIN hasn't done it before.

Low ratings and "your favorite shows" seems somewhat contradictory...

Yeah, you think perhaps someone could proof-read their copy before they send it to press. Perhaps they would have also caught the improper use of "it's"... not that I'm an English Major or anything. ;)

If we cannot reach a fair and reasonable agreement with LIN TV Corporation by October 2, 2008, WDTN will take it's channel from your lineup.

Right now in my area we have WDTN NBC out of Dayton and WLIO NBC out of Lima. But other than during the local news, WLIO is always blacked out. Some FCC rule? If WDTN is dropped, will they turn on WLIO 24/7?

Also, what's the deal with blocking out WLIO. I know friends in other areas who have multiple NBCs, CBSs, etc that are not blocked out. Yet in my area, we have two NBCs but one is always blocked and we have two CBSs but one is also always blocked. Why the seemingly different treatment in different areas?

I don't think it's an FCC rule, it's a network rule. The network gives the stations "exclusive" rights to show their programs in given areas, hence why WLIO and WDTN are allowed on the same cable systems but can only show non-network programming at the same time. At primetime, for example, only the "home" station can be shown.

In areas where there are multiple stations of the same network, are you sure they don't do the same "blackout" ? In Dayton, TW customers get (2) FOX stations but come 8pm (and probably at 1pm on Sundays with football, etc, etc), they show syndicated programming or infomercials.

I think there's more to the rule because we got WOOD and WNDU full time on our cable system in Kalamazoo. My in-laws get WOTV and WZZM full time through DirecTV and they used to get the same with cable.

Now, with that said, I wouldn't expect WLIO's blackouts to change if WDTN does come off of TWC.

In areas where there are multiple stations of the same network, are you sure they don't do the same "blackout" ?

Yeah, I asked my co-worker about it. He said come prime time both NBCs, CBSs, etc. are still on and not blacked out. He can watch Survivor, Bones, whatever, during prime-time on multiple channels. I just don't understand why some area seem to fall under different rules than others.

I don't think it's an FCC rule, it's a network rule.

I just checked out our blocked CBS and it says on the screen:

"Due to FCC non-duplication protection this channel is blacked out"

If TWC is shrewd and can out wait WDTN until after the November sweeps, WDTN's ratings will drop 80 percent and their advertisers will demand lower rates or will jump ship to other Dayton stations. At that point, TWC will have them and could actually ask LIN to pay for carriage on TWC!

I think there's more to the rule because we got WOOD and WNDU full time on our cable system in Kalamazoo. My in-laws get WOTV and WZZM full time through DirecTV and they used to get the same with cable.


As already mentioned, The issue primarily involves Net/affiliate agreements for exclusivity for distrubition rights within the market.

However, It's sometimes more complicated than that in specific cases. Somewhere, earlier in this thread, and perhaps in Cincinnati thread we delved into a bit of that, including some of the specifics involved - mostly, as I recall involving carriage of Both Dayton/Cincinnati stations in areas of Warren/Butler County(which are in Cincinanti DMA, but CAble systems there, especially Northern Warren/Butler carry stations from both markets, w/o blackouts I believe) --- but I don't recall all the specifics involved at present without "re-researching" it ..

But, As I do seem to recall, basically, there are sometimes issues involving :

A). Out of market stations on FCC's "Significantly viewed" list --which is specific to communties or counties involved.

B).There are some FCC rules designed to help "protect" the net/affilate exclusivity agreements, although again, it's primarily issue between the stations + Networks.

C). There are also issues regarding overlapping market areas ..

D). I also suspect agreements among stations(possibly involving their agreements with the nets as well) may be involved in some cases as well.

If TWC is shrewd and can out wait WDTN until after the November sweeps, WDTN's ratings will drop 80 percent and their advertisers will demand lower rates or will jump ship to other Dayton stations.

[update: - had to dig up this info, as couldn't find it at first]

First of all it wouldn't be 80%. For instance, according to this source, Dayton Market Cable Penetration(July 2008) is only 62.5% :

http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/markettrack/archivebymarket.asp?marketid=52

82.5% of households in Dayton market subscribe to Pay TV services -- the other 20% in the "ADS" column meaning DBS or other MVPD's ... That leaves 17.5% OTA or that watch no TV at all (perhaps other than DVD/etc) ..

[end update]

Note This issue is not just about WDTN, it's about numerous LIN stations in numorous markets on TWC systems as well ....

We will see what happens, but as noted in earlier article I posted link to and possibly info in the cable carriage thread in programming area -- there have been other cases (involving other stations) where the stations involved held out for months+were off the cable systems (If I recall correctly including during sweeps periods in some cases) until the MVPD involved "caved" after in some cases losing as much as 10% of their subscribers ...

[another update/thought]
It's also the case LIN has reached agreements (via retrans consent) with Other MVPD's for carriage, and per their latest Quarterly financial statement, the Retrans consent fees - 7 digit numbers -- (and other sources of revenue) are currently dwarfed by their revenue(9 digit numbers) from local advertising ...

So, I would venture to guess LIN knows a little bit about what they are doing, here, especially given the widely reported success over the past couple of years numerous other broadcasters/broadcaster groups have had in seeking fees for retransmission cosnent ...



At that point, TWC will have them and could actually ask LIN to pay for carriage on TWC!


I doubt that would happen, although I suppose it's possible .. I suppose it could depend somewhat upon when WDTN has to make, makes (or has made) their carriage election choice for TW between either must carry or to negotiate via Retransmission consent for their next 3 year cycle ... Certianly, the current situation certianly involves negotiation for Retrasmission consent, but I don't know if that could change anytime in the near future ....

For stations which had to make that election between Must carry/retrans consent by Oct 1, 2008, (Which may or may not include WDTN, I do not know/didn't check --) There is this recent FCC Report and Order involving clarifying issue regarding analog shut off/End of DTV transition and the dates involved for those stations next carriage election cycle :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-08-224A1.pdf

Here's a bit from paragraph #2 of document at above link :

2. Specifically, we clarify that the carriage elections that must be made by October 1, 2008, will determine a station’s carriage rights throughout the entire 2009-2011 carriage election cycle.


But there is also this (footnote #24), which I don't think will apply to WDTN (in case they were one of the stations that had to make the cable carriage election by Oct 1), as they have not/are not planning (or asking FCC) for early analog shut off prior to Jan 1 09(when the "2009~2011" election cycle would begin), anyway :


24 The carriage election rule for stations that voluntarily return their analog spectrum allocation and begin operating
as digital-only prior to the 2009-2011 carriage cycle in which the DTV transition concludes provides that “stations
that return their analog spectrum allocation and broadcast in digital only shall make their initial election any time
between 60 days prior to commencing broadcast and 30 days after … commencing broadcasting in digital only; such
initial election shall take effect 90 days after it is made.” 47 CFR § 76.64(f)(4).

At about 12:30 WDTN has been turned off on Time Warner. Right now they are running HBO family on channel 2.

no, channel 9. there's also a scroll on the bottom saying this is only a preview, and they are trying to work out a deal with wdtn and to call their phone number.

also, could someone explain why we don't have CW HD? TWC won't pay premium for it like NBC?

also, could someone explain why we don't have CW HD? TWC won't pay premium for it like NBC?

This may have something to do with it : Per TW Dayton's 2006 Form 325 for Dayton community, specifically - Physical Unit ID 003215 --- (This is theyr annual report filed with FCC by TW in Feb 2007), Time Warner Indicated WBDT analog was carried on their system(In Dayton) via Must Carry ...

If that's still the case, note stations(other than stations which are "digital only" stations) currently only have Must carry rights only for their analog signal -- They will not have Must carry rights for their digital until the analog is gone (Feb 18, 2009) ...

BTW, the only other stations listed as "must carry" were(analogs) WPTO, WPTD and WKOI ...

the following analog stations were indicated as carried via Retransmission Consent(which *CAN* involve $, but doesn't have too -- they can make other "deals" as well) :

WHIO, WRGT, WDTN, WKEF, WXIX

All the Digital signals carried were listed under "Digital/Retransmission consent"

Note: I looked, but can't find a more recent annual report/form 325 (for 2007 Since 2008 isn't over yet) Filing for TW Dayton in FCC Coals database, possible they could have changed to a different form or is no longer pubicly available data/etc ....

You can see the 2006 form for yourself here (if the link works, it is right now) :

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/csb/coals/forms/325/325_Section_I.cfm?&reference_number=183833891&appType=AR

If you go to above link (assuming it works for you, it is working right now) , When the first page loads in, Click on "Proceed to Section III", button at bottom, then after next (2nd/section III) page pops up, click on "Proceed to Programming channels" button at bottom Then, when the next page(3rd - programming channels) click on the various "tier" info(broadcast Must carry/analog/basic/etc), and you'll see the Broadcast stations or cable networks carried (at the time at least), as specified whether they are carried via Must carry or retransmission consent /etc ....

[update: - had to dig up this info, as couldn't find it at first]

First of all it wouldn't be 80%. For instance, according to this source, Dayton Market Cable Penetration(July 2008) is only 62.5%


Jeff, I was just playing Devil's advocate. Losing 62.5% of their viewership/market will certainly be hard to keep advertisers. But on the other hand, I wouldn't doubt that many cable viewers may have OTA capability somewhere in their house, so the loss may not be quite so bad.

I just question the timing of this battle by both sides. If TWC can withstand the negative publicity until after the November sweeps, then the table may turn to TWC's favor.

TWC's risk is losing viewers to other providers because of the loss of WDTN versus paying something to carry the signal. WDTN only has risk if they lose advertisers or have to lower advertising rates to keep them.

And for what it is worth (since I haven't posted in this section in a long time), I have DirecTV and OTA and am looking forward to the Dayton HD locals from D* come later this month. So I really don't have a side to this battle. I am just enjoying the ride.

I wouldn't doubt that many cable viewers may have OTA capability somewhere in their house, so the loss may not be quite so bad. Do an unscientific poll.... Ask people if they have an antenna or if they've gotten rid of them (the day after they got cable installed). And whether or not some still have an antenna, ask them if they'll use it to get WDTN. Most will tell you "no" while many will ask "can you still get TV with an antenna ?".

We have a TV in the lunch room here at work and just use an antenna. We'd given up watching negative-WHIO's noon news and watch WDTN. One person, after seeing the "ad" warning us that TW customers will lose WDTN, asked "does this mean we'll have to watch WHIO news again?".

Never thought a cable company would do this:

Time Warner also began making antennas available at its Dayton Mall store to customers who want to pick up WDTN's free over-the-air signal http://www.daytondailynews.com/b/content/oh/story/business/2008/10/03/ddn100308ch2web.html

ah, very interesting nitewatchman, thank you. not many shows on CW interest me but i was just wondering.


anyways, if they DO get a deal with LIN TV, chances are high we'll have NBC HD too right?

What I'd read was that the deal they're trying to settle on would include WDTN-DT (obviously, given that WDTN (analog) will be gone in a few months).

Hook up rabbit ears and receive in HD.............................(for FREE)

I'm still having issues with the Tv Guide on my Elite and was wondering if anyone had an engineering contact at PBS channel 16?

Thanks,
John

I'm still having issues with the Tv Guide on my Elite and was wondering if anyone had an engineering contact at PBS channel 16?

I talked to one of the George's in the engineering Dept. last Thursday and he said the encoder for the Tv Guide has to been replaced again. And it has to come from Canada so it will be sometime this coming week.

Jeff, I was just playing Devil's advocate.


Good for you + you bring up valid point ...

OF course, broadcasters know folks who want to watch the programming they provide will usually find a way. And, there are several ways to do that for WDTN besides via TW Cable ....


So I really don't have a side to this battle.


Neither do I, I'm just attempting to point out some of the relevant facts involved.

Hook up rabbit ears and receive in HD.............................(for FREE)

I'm still having issues with the Tv Guide on my Elite and was wondering if anyone had an engineering contact at PBS channel 16?

Thanks,
John

I have guide problems on my PDP-6010FD when my rotor points my antenna to Dayton. Towards Columbus, I don't have a problem.

I talked to one of the George's in the engineering Dept. last Thursday and he said the encoder for the Tv Guide has to been replaced again. And it has to come from Canada so it will be sometime this coming week.

Thanks for the response! If I remember correctly they had the same part fail last year. I hope they get it fixed this week as I miss having the guide at my finger tips. When I change channels the "info" shown on the screen is current so I know it is getting something just no listings.

I have guide problems on my PDP-6010FD when my rotor points my antenna to Dayton. Towards Columbus, I don't have a problem.

Thanks for the info but I have an attic mounted antenna that is manually pointed towards Dayton. It does a great job of receiving all the local channels. In the beginning of HD I had it pointed towards Cincinnati as that city was the only local city broadcasting network channels in HD.

Thanks,
John

Here's an excellent blog post on my favorite football blog about how the dispute between LIN and TWC is affecting the NFL games for in-market games...

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/10/04/in-all-seven-games-affected-by-time-warner-dispute/

The Colts-Texans game won’t be seen in Ft. Wayne, Indianapolis, or Buffalo.

The Bills-Cardinals contest won’t be seen in Buffalo.

The Steelers-Jaguars game on Sunday night won’t be seen in Dayton, Ohio; Austin, Texas; Portsmouth/Norfolk, Virginia; and Springfield.

The game between the Falcons and Green Bay Packers won’t be seen in Green Bay.

The game between the Bears and the Lions won’t be seen in Toledo, Ohio.

The Bengals-Cowboys game won’t be seen in Ft. Wayne and Indianapolis.

The Redskins-Eagles game will be unavailable in Portsmouth/Norfolk, Virginia.

Sad sound via WHIO-DT OTA...Very static filled...Well the broadcast is...Commercials sound fine...

Here's an excellent blog post on my favorite football blog about how the dispute between LIN and TWC is affecting the NFL games for in-market games...

http://www.profootballtalk.com/2008/10/04/in-all-seven-games-affected-by-time-warner-dispute/

The Colts-Texans game won’t be seen in Ft. Wayne, Indianapolis, or Buffalo.

The Bills-Cardinals contest won’t be seen in Buffalo.

The Steelers-Jaguars game on Sunday night won’t be seen in Dayton, Ohio; Austin, Texas; Portsmouth/Norfolk, Virginia; and Springfield.

The game between the Falcons and Green Bay Packers won’t be seen in Green Bay.

The game between the Bears and the Lions won’t be seen in Toledo, Ohio.

The Bengals-Cowboys game won’t be seen in Ft. Wayne and Indianapolis.

The Redskins-Eagles game will be unavailable in Portsmouth/Norfolk, Virginia.Won't be seen?? That is only true if you assume that everyone watches TV via cable and has no other options...

Sad sound via WHIO-DT OTA...Very static filled...Well the broadcast is...Commercials sound fine...
Yep same here on WHIO-DT, especially when the CBS dudes get excited :)

Not to derail channel '2' but..........
Hook up rabbit ears and receive in HD.............................(for FREE)

Not sure how this "derails" channel 2. If anything it derails Time Warner.

I'm sorta slow on the uptake, and don't want to wade thru about 30 pages of unread posts ... and I've read some of the give and take over the last week, and apologize about not reading about two hour's worth of responses. You 400# brains who pay way closer attention (Nitewatchman?), a couple questions:

1) For as long as I've lived in South Dayton, we've had Dayton and Cincinnati CBS, ABC, and Fox carried on TW. For awhile until maybe the mid 90s, I *think* we also had WLWT (Cincinnati NBC) station. Then WLWT was removed, but the remainder of the Cincinnati channels were kept.

a) Am I misremembering history? If so, why was WLWT dumped? If not, why didn't they carry WLWT, but carried the rest?

b) Why can't TW swing a deal to put WLWT (or even WLIO) back on? Is that a network argument? If it were a network argument, why wouldn't it be in the network's best interest to have its national content carried (as it really doesn't have a lot to say regarding local content)? At some point, of course, the network went from WKEF to WDTN ... would this network directive / agreement still be in force with a different local provider?

2) This smacks of an "I really don't want to start that sort of precedent" case. Does anyone have a ballpark estimate of how much WHIO, WRGT, and WKEF pays, if any, to TW? The $1.8M estimate, if TW caved, would probably be multiplied by at least 3 to cover those other three, once their current deal(s) with TW expire. Especially if they're not paying anything now.

I'm still living off no HD. I dumped my Rakesh.H/Cablecard package about 18 months ago, and really haven't looked back; this after TW waged one of their many "screw up the cablecard so the guy will buy a box" campaigns. Kinda waiting for Uverse.

C'ya
Cran

Yep same here on WHIO-DT, especially when the CBS dudes get excited :)

Same with the Bengals game...

b) Why can't TW swing a deal to put WLWT (or even WLIO) back on? Is that a network argument? If it were a network argument, why wouldn't it be in the network's best interest to have its national content carried (as it really doesn't have a lot to say regarding local content)? At some point, of course, the network went from WKEF to WDTN ... would this network directive / agreement still be in force with a different local provider?

It's a network agreement issue. WDTN owns the rights for NBC in the Dayton DMA. No other network can provide NBC to the Dayton DMA unless WDTN agrees (e.g. if you have heard of satellite viewers trying to get waivers...although this is very rare for an affilliate to do -- it's not in their best interest)


I'm still living off no HD. I dumped my Rakesh.H/Cablecard package about 18 months ago, and really haven't looked back; this after TW waged one of their many "screw up the cablecard so the guy will buy a box" campaigns. Kinda waiting for Uverse. Why not get HD for free OTA??

Same with the Bengals game...
Yes, re: audio issue on WHIO. Seems ok on WKRC though although CBS does an awful job with mixing sound (and WKRC only broadcasting in stereo doesn't help).

Personally, I couldn't care less about not having WDTN on Time Warner. Since Time Warner didn't carry WDTN in HD, I never watched it anyway. For the past year or so, when there was something actually on NBC that I wanted to watch (ie. Football), I pull out my rabbit ears and watch WLIO in HD.

Now if it were Fox, CBS, or ABC, that would be another matter, for me. I'm can't pick up any of those stations OTA. I could probably live with out CBS or ABC. But not having Fox would cause me to jump ship.

Not sure how this "derails" channel 2. If anything it derails Time Warner. WDTN is the one making such a big deal out of it though. Why can't they be happy with their viewers picking them up via OTA vs from Time Warner ? Fact is, WDTN needs Time Warner considering what, just over 60% of their viewers get their channel from TW. I know many will argue that TW needs WDTN too, and they do, but not as much.

Won't be seen?? That is only true if you assume that everyone watches TV via cable and has no other options... That is the typical assumption that way too many people make.

WDTN is the one making such a big deal out of it though. Why can't they be happy with their viewers picking them up via OTA vs from Time Warner ? Fact is, WDTN needs Time Warner considering what, just over 60% of their viewers get their channel from TW. I know many will argue that TW needs WDTN too, and they do, but not as much.

Make no mistake...TW needs WDTN in Dayton MUCH MORE than WDTN needs TW...;)

It appears that October 22nd is the day that all the Dayton locals go live on DirecTV.


Or later this week..........:D

http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=3620002

I am ready to ditch cable TV. I will be moving to an apartment in Bellbrook, OH (45305) outside of Dayton. All the broadcast towers are around 10 miles from my location. Not sure of rules on an outside antenna, will an indoor one work to pickup all the channels?

I pick up a RS 15-1868 indoor antenna and i tried it out at a friends house that is also less than 10 miles from the towers and could not get any UHF channels. I will be getting a DTV converter box soon to test it further. Anything special you have to do to get UHF channels?

Thanks for any help

Or later this week..........:D

http://directv.com/DTVAPP/global/contentPageNR.jsp?assetId=3620002

That says October 2008, not October 8th.

I am ready to ditch cable TV. I will be moving to an apartment in Bellbrook, OH (45305) outside of Dayton. All the broadcast towers are around 10 miles from my location. Not sure of rules on an outside antenna, will an indoor one work to pickup all the channels?

I pick up a RS 15-1868 indoor antenna and i tried it out at a friends house that is also less than 10 miles from the towers and could not get any UHF channels. I will be getting a DTV converter box soon to test it further. Anything special you have to do to get UHF channels?

Thanks for any help
The results at your place could be very different, even though you are both 10 miles away. Get the antenna as high as possible, and near a window facing the towers if possible. You might try a silver sensor model instead as the antenna you have is just a simple uhf loop covered in "fancy" looking plastic.

http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=1228039507&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=3&campid=5336055023&toolid=10001 http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PM-HDTV1-Silver-Sensor-Antenna/dp/B00022O9VM (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPhilips-PM-HDTV1-Silver-Sensor-Antenna%2Fdp%2FB00022O9VM&tag=5336055023-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

If you have a balcony or an easy place to mount, a double bowtie might work better for you as well:

http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=2109951892&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=3&campid=5336055023&toolid=10001 http://www.amazon.com/Antennas-Direct-DB2-Directional-Antenna/dp/B000EHUE7I/ref=dp_cp_ob_e_title_1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FAntennas-Direct-DB2-Directional-Antenna%2Fdp%2FB000EHUE7I%2Fref%3Ddp_cp_ob_e_title_1&tag=5336055023-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)

Both of these antennas are designed for UHF, so any VHF channels you'd want to receive may be difficult. However, currently and all plans indicate that Dayton digitals will all be on UHF. Of course that could change, and if you are at all interested in Cincinnati digitals, WCPO is currently on VHF and WKRC will be on VHF in February.

You may have very good luck with an indoor antenna properly aimed and near a window facing the towers. All I'd ask is that you keep in mind that broadcast TV was designed to be received with outdoor, rooftop directional antennas. Oftentimes being close to the towers makes indoor antennas work satisfactorily, but if it doesn't or is not reliable for all the channels you may need to consider an outdoor mount. If you are not allowed an outdoor mount, then you'll have to make do with what you can do.

Also, if you do have a balcony or patio that is for your exclusive use, you ARE allowed to mount an outdoor antenna there. FCC rules override any landlord or homeowner association. You can see more about this here:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html

1) For as long as I've lived in South Dayton, we've had Dayton and Cincinnati CBS, ABC, and Fox carried on TW. For awhile until maybe the mid 90s, I *think* we also had WLWT (Cincinnati NBC) station. Then WLWT was removed, but the remainder of the Cincinnati channels were kept.
a) Am I misremembering history? If so, why was WLWT dumped? If not, why didn't they carry WLWT, but carried the rest?

b) Why can't TW swing a deal to put WLWT (or even WLIO) back on? Is that a network argument?


See :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14789319#post14789319

Like I said in that post, the issues involved in situations like these are sometimes complicated, and specific to each station involved ...

Regarding *some* of the possible issues involved, read through/study FCC rules(CFR sec. 76.*) regarding MVPD(including cable) Carriage of Broadcast signals(Subpart D), Significantly viewed Signals(also in Subpart D), and Network Non-duplication Protection, Syndicated Exclusivity and Sports Blackout (Subpart F), current versions available at following link :

http://www.hallikainen.com/FccRules/2008/76

There is *way* too much that would need to be quoted from those rules which may be specific to how, say, WLWT could *potentially* be carried by TW in some areas South Dayton ... For instance, for Warren County(say, springboro), WLWT is on Warren County "significanty" viewed list, currently ... For Montgomery County, it is not, but 76.54 details how it *could* potentially be added, if enough people in Montgomery Co. watch it OTA with an antenna and a proper survey were done .... Also, Sec. 76.59 details how communities can be included within multiple DMA's (i.e. "overlapping market areas") .... There were also changes in rules/etc. involved since(and during) the 90's, and for instance, in 2000 from using ADI to define a stations market area to DMA ....

Update: Also, I would stress, it would still primarly be an issue between Network(or other programming provider)/affiliate, and the stations involved ... WLWT could be on the "significantly viewed" list for instance, but WLWT would have to WANT/seek carriage in the specific community involved ....
:end update

Here is 76.93 in its entirety :


Sec. 76.93 Parties entitled to network non-duplication protection.

Television broadcast station licensees shall be entitled to exercise
non-duplication rights pursuant to Sec. 76.92 in accordance with the contractual provisions of the network-affiliate agreement.


Sec 76.92 in its entirety follows (note: It's better to look at it via the "link" as the formatting will likely be "off") :


Sec. 76.92 Cable network non-duplication; extent of protection.

(a) Upon receiving notification pursuant to Sec. 76.94, a cable community unit located in whole or in part within the geographic zone for a network
program, the network non-duplication rights to which are held by a
commercial television station licensed by the Commission, shall not carry
that program as broadcast by any other television signal, except as
otherwise provided below.

(b) For purposes of this section, the order of nonduplication priority of
television signals carried by a community unit is as follows:

(1) First, all television broadcast stations within whose specified zone the
community of the community unit is located, in whole or in part;

(2) Second, all smaller market television broadcast stations within whose
secondary zone the community of the community unit is located, in whole or
in part.

(c) For purposes of this section, all noncommercial educational television
broadcast stations licensed to a community located in whole or in part
within a major television market as specified in Sec. 76.51 shall be treated in
the same manner as a major market commercial television broadcast station,
and all noncommercial educational television broadcast stations not licensed
to a community located in whole or in part within a major television market
shall be treated in the same manner as a smaller market television broadcast
station.

(d) Any community unit operating in a community to which a 100-watt or
higher power translator is located within the predicted Grade B signal
contour of the television broadcast station that the translator station
retransmits, and which translator is carried by the community unit shall,
upon request of such translator station licensee or permittee, delete the
duplicating network programming of any television broadcast station whose
reference point (See Sec. 76.53) is more than 88.5 km (55 miles) from the
community of the community unit.

(e) Any community unit which operates in a community located in whole or in
part within the secondary zone of a smaller market television broadcast
station is not required to delete the duplicating network programming of any
major market television broadcast station whose reference point (See Sec. 76.53)
is also within 88.5 km (55 miles) of the community of the community unit.

(f) A community unit is not required to delete the duplicating network
programming of any television broadcast station which is significantly
viewed in the cable television community pursuant to Sec. 76.54.

(g) A community unit is not required to delete the duplicating network
programming of any qualified NCE television broadcast station that is
carried in fulfillment of the cable television system's mandatory signal
carriage obligations, pursuant to Sec. 76.56.

Note: With respect to network programming, the geographic zone within which
the television station is entitled to enforce network non-duplication
protection and priority of shall be that geographic area agreed upon between
the network and the television station. In no event shall such rights exceed
the area within which the television station may acquire broadcast
territorial exclusivity rights as defined in Sec. 73.658(m) of this Chapter,
except that small market television stations shall be entitled to a
secondary protection zone of 32.2 additional kilometers (20 additional
miles). To the extent rights are obtained for any hyphenated market named in
Sec. 76.51, such rights shall not exceed those permitted under Sec. 73.658(m) of
this Chapter for each named community in that market.


AS for 76.92 (f), and the "Significantly viewed list", Currently :

For Montgomery County, The following stations are currently on FCC's Significantly viewed list :

Montgomery
WDTN, 2, Dayton, OH (formerly WLWD)
WHIO-TV, 7, Dayton, OH
WPTD, 16, Dayton, OH (formerly WKTR)
WKEF, 22, Dayton, OH
+WRGT-TV, 45, Dayton, OH
WCPO-TV, 9, Cincinnati, OH
WKRC-TV, 12, Cincinnati, OH
+WSTR-TV, 64, Cincinnati, OH

Butler County :

Butler
WLWT, 5, Cincinnati, OH
WCPO-TV, 9, Cincinnati, OH
WKRC-TV, 12, Cincinnati, OH
WXIX-TV, 19, Cincinnati, OH
+WSTR-TV, 64, Cincinnati, OH
WDTN, 2, Dayton, OH (formerly WLWD)
WHIO-TV, 7, Dayton, OH
+WKEF, 22, Dayton, OH
+WRGT-TV, 45, Dayton, OH

Warren County :

WLWT, 5, Cincinnati, OH
WCPO-TV, 9, Cincinnati, OH
WKRC-TV, 12, Cincinnati, OH
WXIX-TV, 19, Cincinnati, OH
+WSTR-TV, 64, Cincinnati, OH
WDTN, 2, Dayton, OH (formerly WLWD)
WHIO-TV, 7, Dayton, OH
WKEF, 22, Dayton, OH
+WRGT-TV, 45, Dayton, OH


2) This smacks of an "I really don't want to start that sort of precedent" case.


As has already been mentioned, It's well known that many broadcasters have been sucessfully negotiating for retransmission consent fees recently, Including, fairly recently involving Sinclair deal with TWC ... Note Sinclair Owns WKEF/Operates WRGT ....


Does anyone have a ballpark estimate of how much WHIO, WRGT, and WKEF pays, if any, to TW?


This question and many others you asked in your post and the answers you're looking for involve private agreements between the parties involved (Net/affiliate agreement, agreement for cable carriage between cableco+broadcaster/etc), and involve details which are usually kept private .......

My parents just got HD from TW (DVR not wanted). TW gave me a Pioneer 3510HD. The issues I'm having are that the HD channels are showing up with wide horizontal letterbox bars on their HDTV. When I switched the HD box to "Stretch", the HD channels look OK, but the non-HD ones are stretched.

I'm trying to find a combination of settings on the box and/or the TV that will fill the screen for HD programs (as expected) and have side boxes on non-HD.

By the way, is there any manual for this box? I have had no luck finding anything on the web. I stumbled on the fact that I needed to press "Settings" on the remote to get anything done.

My parents just got HD from TW (DVR not wanted). TW gave me a Pioneer 3510HD. The issues I'm having are that the HD channels are showing up with wide horizontal letterbox bars on their HDTV. When I switched the HD box to "Stretch", the HD channels look OK, but the non-HD ones are stretched.

I'm trying to find a combination of settings on the box and/or the TV that will fill the screen for HD programs (as expected) and have side boxes on non-HD.

By the way, is there any manual for this box? I have had no luck finding anything on the web. I stumbled on the fact that I needed to press "Settings" on the remote to get anything done.

It sounds like you have your box set to 4:3. Make sure it is 16:9, you should be able to have the box set to Normal and not stretch and 16:9 content will fill your screen and 4:3 SD content will have bars on the sides.

Now if you are viewing a channel that is in HD, but is showing a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie then you will see black bars on the top and bottom, but if you flip through all your HD channels you should see some that fill the screen...

I don't have this box (or TWC for that matter), so I can't give you any further information, but it sounds like this might be the issue...

Before Time Warner developed their own software for their set-tops, previously they used Pioneer's Passport software, there was a setting that you told the box what to do automatically depending on the format/resolution of the channel. For example, if it detects a 16:9 signal (and you have a 16:9 TV), you tell it to do nothing basically. If it detects a 4:3 signal, you can tell it to leave it alone, stretch it, zoom it, etc. There was also a setting where you told it the format of your TV, i.e. 4:3 or 16:9.

Did they remove/lose these settings in their home-grown software ? With the old software, after hitting the "Settings" button, there was a 2nd-level menu that you accessed by hitting "A" for "More settings".

Here is a thread regarding TW's set-top software:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723830

I am ready to ditch cable TV. I will be moving to an apartment in Bellbrook, OH (45305) outside of Dayton. All the broadcast towers are around 10 miles from my location. Not sure of rules on an outside antenna, will an indoor one work to pickup all the channels?

I pick up a RS 15-1868 indoor antenna and i tried it out at a friends house that is also less than 10 miles from the towers and could not get any UHF channels. I will be getting a DTV converter box soon to test it further. Anything special you have to do to get UHF channels?

Thanks for any help

Mutex, for what it's worth, I'm just down the road from you in Clayton. I have two TVs with Silver Sensor (UHF-only) antennas sitting in south-facing windows in a single story house. I pick up all the Dayton AND Cincinnati UHF stations on CECBs. Everyone's results vary by location but I would think the Dayton stations should be no problem for you.

Did they remove/lose these settings in their home-grown software ?

No, all those options are still there. Although, the one issue I've had since they moved to the new software-- I tell my box to stretch the 4:3 analog channels-- after viewing an HD channel then flipping to the analogs, the analogs stay in 4:3 until I surf down to the 40's then suddenly ALL the 4:3 channels strech to 16:9 like I have it set up. It always worked perfectly with the old software. Any one else notice this?

the 4:3 channels strech to 16:9 like I have it set up. Not sure about your problem but 4:3 channels should not be stretched...

No, all those options are still there. Although, the one issue I've had since they moved to the new software-- I tell my box to stretch the 4:3 analog channels-- after viewing an HD channel then flipping to the analogs, the analogs stay in 4:3 until I surf down to the 40's then suddenly ALL the 4:3 channels strech to 16:9 like I have it set up. It always worked perfectly with the old software. Any one else notice this?

I noticed this bug at my parent's house who have TWC, the way I found to fix it is to have every resolution selected (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i). Doing this is annoying because when you switch between channels that are broadcast in different resolutions, there is a delay while the output rez. is changed. But it should solve any aspect ratio issues...

Not sure about your problem but 4:3 channels should not be stretched...

I don't think "should not" is the proper wording. While you may not like stretching 4:3 content (neither do I), some people prefer it this way. If 4:3 material shouldn't be stretched no 16:9 TV or set top box manufacturer would have options to do this, but they all do.

It comes down to personal preference.

I don't think "should not" is the proper wording. While you may not like stretching 4:3 content (neither do I), some people prefer it this way. If 4:3 material shouldn't be stretched no 16:9 TV or set top box manufacturer would have options to do this, but they all do.

It comes down to personal preference.
Based on what you just said I think "should not" was exactly the correct wording. Stretching content/screwing up the aspect ratio of video content is an absolute no-no. Just because some people do it anyway doesn't make it OK. I can't stop them from doing so, but I can tell them it's not correct.

Stretching content/screwing up the aspect ratio of video content is an absolute no-no. Just because some people do it anyway doesn't make it OK. I can't stop them from doing so, but I can tell them it's not correct. For the record, I do NOT stretch 4:3 content.

That said, I don't tell others what to do. I don't tell them it's "wrong" or "an absolute no-no". If they want to, they can. To some, having the bars on the left/right is absolutely wrong or something's broken. I will say, my 6-year old daughter will zoom 4:3 content to fill our 16:9 set, which is better than stretching ! Even she says "it makes people fat".

Only if you use the wrong zoom...I am fortnate that my CRT HD RPTV has one of the industries best...if not the best...stretch modes available and people look anything but short and fat when on the proper setting...

For the record I DO 'stretch' 4:3 content...Well at least standard cable I do...HD DVD player I do not stretch SD DVD...I let it as it is...That said I have very few 4:3 SD DVDs...

Not sure about your problem but 4:3 channels should not be stretched...

Stretching content/screwing up the aspect ratio of video content is an absolute no-no. Just because some people do it anyway doesn't make it OK. I can't stop them from doing so, but I can tell them it's not correct.

Thanks for the lesson. Hold on a second while I grab that six-pack... :rolleyes:

Anyway, on a less snarky note, while I generally agree with you and I don't stretch any 4:3 movie I happen to watch, I have no problem stretching standard analog cable. For the type of programming I do watch on standard cable, stretching isn't a big deal IMHO.

I noticed this bug at my parent's house who have TWC, the way I found to fix it is to have every resolution selected (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i). Doing this is annoying because when you switch between channels that are broadcast in different resolutions, there is a delay while the output rez. is changed. But it should solve any aspect ratio issues...

Thanks. I tried selecting all the output resolutions a while back, but the delay while the output resolution was changed was too annoying.

Thanks for everybody who replied to my TW question, but I have some additional questions. Keep in mind that they have the new Mystro software.

How do I tell it to do different actions for different types of programs? When I press "Settings" on the remote and choose "Aspect Ratio", I only get 3 choices Normal, Zoom, and Stretch. I don't know how to say "If the program is 16:9, do nothing. Or, if the program is 4:3, then..."

I did see a guide on the net that described some front panel button sequences where you can tell the box what aspect of TV you have, but it was written for the previous software and it doesn't appear to work when I try it.

Also, I don't know how to pick the output resolutions like browerjs said he did for his folks.

Any additional help would be greatly appreciated!

How do I tell it to do different actions for different types of programs? When I press "Settings" on the remote and choose "Aspect Ratio", I only get 3 choices Normal, Zoom, and Stretch. I don't know how to say "If the program is 16:9, do nothing. Or, if the program is 4:3, then..."

The aspect ratio setting will not affect the HD channels. They are locked. The aspect ratio setting is for the non-HD channels only.

Thanks. I tried selecting all the output resolutions a while back, but the delay while the output resolution was changed was too annoying.

Unfortunately, this is the only way around this bug... There is also another bug it fixes where when you come out of the guide the video stays in the same place and at the same size as it was when you were in the guide... Although I couldn't figure out how to reproduce this on a regular basis...

I did see a guide on the net that described some front panel button sequences where you can tell the box what aspect of TV you have, but it was written for the previous software and it doesn't appear to work when I try it. That is actually for SARA software, something very few Time Warner customers ever had on their boxes and certainly none in the Dayton area. They've been Passport and Mystro for years.

Vader said the options I described are still there. Many of us no longer have Time Warner so we're of limited help with this... You still have them, with a set-top, so start pushing buttons. :D

I did see a guide on the net that described some front panel button sequences where you can tell the box what aspect of TV you have

I don't know about front panel buttons, but just hit the "settings" button and from there you can change the display characteristics.

Hello fellow enthusiasts,
This is my first post as I just stumbled upon this site today for the first time. Seems to be a lot of good info, and people here. I am a long time cable subscriber, and I am tired of paying more and more and getting less and less from TWC. I want them out of my life, and pocket, for good. Problem is I am addicted to their Guide and DVR functionality. I consider myself somewhat of a techie, so I think I should be able to get something going with a little help from other people like you. Could someone please point me in the right direction for a good jumping off point to get this done? What I am looking for is a way to get my local HD channels, some sort of "guide" functionality, and the ability to DVR the programming. I also like to watch a few shows on HBO, but I guess I can live without that if it means getting rid of TWC. I live in Xenia in a new neighborhood where all the trees are small so no interception problems there. I am currently watching a Flat panel LCD which has the ability to display 1080p resolution, if that helps. I am computer savvy as I do that sort of thing for a living, so hit me with the tech, I can take it.
Thanks for the help,

PS mods/admins, if this is posted in the wrong section please let me know.

You're probably better off posting in a different thread since your main question isn't strictly limited to this region. If you're looking for an out of the box solution to your problem, I would suggest a TiVo. If you're looking for a home brew solution, check out MythTV, BeyondTV, SageTV just to name a few HTPC front-ends.

You may want to check out the HTPC Forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=26

Hello fellow enthusiasts,
This is my first post as I just stumbled upon this site today for the first time. Seems to be a lot of good info, and people here. I am a long time cable subscriber, and I am tired of paying more and more and getting less and less from TWC. I want them out of my life, and pocket, for good. Problem is I am addicted to their Guide and DVR functionality. I consider myself somewhat of a techie, so I think I should be able to get something going with a little help from other people like you. Could someone please point me in the right direction for a good jumping off point to get this done? What I am looking for is a way to get my local HD channels, some sort of "guide" functionality, and the ability to DVR the programming. I also like to watch a few shows on HBO, but I guess I can live without that if it means getting rid of TWC. I live in Xenia in a new neighborhood where all the trees are small so no interception problems there. I am currently watching a Flat panel LCD which has the ability to display 1080p resolution, if that helps. I am computer savvy as I do that sort of thing for a living, so hit me with the tech, I can take it.
Thanks for the help,

PS mods/admins, if this is posted in the wrong section please let me know.

If local HDs over satellite is important to you, right now your only option is DirecTV. However if you don't mind getting your locals via antenna, Dish Network offers, in most people's opinions, the superior DVR software with their boxes. All their HD DVRs have an OTA tuner built in so it's seamless with the software. The only downfall is you can only DVR one network show at a time in HD.

I switched a little over a year ago and the wife and I both preferred dish networks software over TWC instantly.

I'm in Beavercreek Township, and have no issues with OTA reception with an antenna in my attic, so right now Dish Network is the better option for me.

Problem is I am addicted to their Guide and DVR functionality. What else have you tried or seen in use ?

thank you terryfoster and browerjs for the suggestions, I will check that stuff out.

hall, nothing, this is my first attempt at freedom from TWC.