Dayton / Lima, OH - HDTV [Text View] - Page 23

Nitewatchman

11-19-08, 12:32 AM

To start off with, can someone give me a breakdown on what will change locally with the official DTV transition?

Basically, the main changes are the Following channel changes, and for WKRC and WPTD, switching from side mounted transmit antennas for digital to the top mounted antennas used for their analog station (WKRC's is CP - Circular polarization btw )--:

Cincinnati:

WKRC-DT - Currently on 31 Moving to 12

Dayton:

WBDT-DT Currently on 18, Moving to 26 -Note in one of their DTR's - Digital Transition Report to FCC - Form 387 --- They've said they plan on doing some testing of the DTV signal on 26 before Feb 17 -- presumably in the wee-hours of morning before analog shut off (I think they said they were planning on doing that sometime in January, but don't quote me on that as I don't have their 387 form handy at the moment) ....

WPTD-DT Currently on 58, Moving to 16 :

Note The following Link (requires PDF reader to access the document ) takes you to a document they sent FCC along with their latest DTR (Digital Transition Report - Form 387) Update, which they sent FCC in Juy.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=681359

Following quote is a portion of the timeline they give FCC, note that it is possible this may have changed a bit, but if not, I suppose we'll find out in a little less than 24 Hours from now ... Fingers crossed everything goes fairly smoothly for them, as you can see, it's not as simple as "flipping a switch" ..... (also note you can find other similar documents rfor the other stations in the area regarding their plans on FCC site with a little digging) :

To accomplish the modifications required to achieve the WPTD post-transition Channel 16 DTV transmission system, the following steps will be taken:

October 31, 2008
• Micro Communications, Inc. scheduled to ship the new Channel 16 Digital RF System

November 3, 2008
• American Technical Services, WPTD’s Rechannelization Project contractor, comes onsite to accomplish preparation work and to receive the new Channel 16 DTV RF System

November 20, 2008
• Turn off pre-transition Channel 58 DTV transmitter for 8 to 12 hours. This temporary DTV off-air outage will occur between midnight and noon and will be minimized with good planning and advanced preparations.
• Remove pre-transition Channel 58 DTV Filter from Channel 58 DTV transmitter system and relocate to adjacent room
• Plumb the output of existing Channel 58 DTV transmitter’s High Power Amplifier #2 to the DTV Filter input
• Plumb the DTV Filter output to feed the existing Channel 58 DTV antenna
transmission line
• The existing Channel 58 transmitter’s High Power Amplifier #2 will be driven by a loaner Channel 58 Exciter and Intermediate Power Amplifier and will operate at no less than 80% licensed power
• Restore pre-transition Channel 58 DTV service to air at not less than 80% output power

November 24, 2008
• Commence modifications of pre-transition Channel 58 DTV transmitter for post-transition Channel 16 DTV operation
• Install the new ceiling-mounted post-transition Channel 16 DTV Internal RF System
• Modify the two pre-transition Channel 58 DTV Exciters, the two pre-transition Channel 58 Intermediate Power Amplifiers and pre-transition Channel 58 High Power Amplifier #1 for post-transition Channel 16 DTV operation

December 12, 2008
• Complete modifications and begin testing of post-transition Channel 16 DTV transmitter system

December 19, 2008
• Complete testing and Proof of Performance

January 21, 2009
• Switch WPTD Channel 16 analog operation from normal full power diplexed mode to multiplexed mode at approximately 50% output power.
• Remove Channel 16 analog diplexer
• Install a coax-to-waveguide transition at former diplexer port of Channel 16 antenna waveguide switch
• Plumb Channel 16 DTV transmitter to the coax-to-waveguide transition at former diplexer port of Channel 16 antenna waveguide switch
• Continue operating WPTD Channel 16 analog transmitter at reduced power through February 17, 2009.

February 17, 2009 at 23:59 Eastern Standard Time
• Turn off Channel 16 analog transmitter
• Turn off Channel 58 DTV transmitter
February 18, 2009 at 00:01 Eastern Standard Time
• Commence post-transition DTV Channel 16 operation utilizing high power amplifier #1 at
not less than 80% power
• Modify High Power Amplifier #2 for post-transition Channel 16 DTV operation
February 20, 2009
• Restore full power Channel 16 DTV transmitter operation through magic-tee RF system

Will there be increases in power

They haven't been approved by FCC yet -- And, it may or may not be approved, but the main significant change in that regard is that WBDT-DT has applied for Maximizing their signal, The app asks for 770KW ERP (DA) ... Which if approved, would be about 13~14db or so (signifcant) increase in power from their current operation at 35KW ERP, and their approved 50KW ERP facility for post transition ...

Another applied for (but not yet granted by FCC) maximization involves WHIO digital -- They aren't asking for more "power" (they operate at 1000KW ERP DA, 1000KW ERP is the maximum FCC has allowed so far on UHF for DTV) -- but instead to move DTV transmit antenna to top of tower, and use a non-directional antenna pattern ... Note the Main lobes for their current antenna are towards Springfield (and points North and SSE more or less), It's a "spade" or clover leaf like pattern, the biggest null(and it's a big one, but fairly "narrow") being towards the SW of their stick and towards current station WDRB 41 (analog) Louisville ... I expect the pattern and the null in that direction currently, is to protect WDRB's service area ....

I suppose the next "most signifiicant" change will be that WCPO will also be switching to a top mounted antenna(not changing channels), but they have to install a new antenna to do that(also circular Polarization - the current antenna is HP only I believe), which they can't do until Post-transition -- And, they will need to reduce power slightly for a time (last I heard/read if I recall correctly it they plan to start on that project sometime this winter with the tower work involved in the Spring/Early summer and have the "final" post-transition facility ready by sometime next summer) to accomplish that ....

Approved power levels for all the other stations in the Cincy/Dayton area, and other important parameters will either be the same, or roughly equivilent to what they are using, now(note that it takes much less power on VHF to cover the same area vs UHF) -- Which are fully authorized, full power facilities. There will be some improvements, however, such as in some cases, some slight power increases/moving DTV transmit antenna to top of tower (most of them that are side mounted in the area all that far from the top now ...

ChiefIllinifan

11-19-08, 11:15 AM

Has anybody verified that TW came through with their additional HD channels today?

New TW HD channels (http://www.timewarnercable.com/dayton/programming/newHDchannels.html)

carlinjm

11-19-08, 11:35 AM

Yes - the new HD channels are online. Now I wish that they would include an HD NBC channel in Oxford! Even though we are in the TW Dayton region, the only NBC we get is the SD version of WLWT-Cincinnati.

Vader

11-19-08, 05:40 PM

Yep, I noticed they were on this morning before work.

Chesskid1

11-19-08, 08:05 PM

ithey have some enhanced TV channels not listed on the guide, maybe they are testing it, channel 1853 is comedy central enhanced TV, channel 1854 is MTv enhanced Tv, etc, and it has a lil window where you can watch clips on demand. anyone know anything about this? is this like the start over thing we've been hearing about?

the new HD channels are pretty nice imho.

Grogdamighty

11-19-08, 08:44 PM

Thanks for the update, Jeff. You obviously have a lot more knowledge in this arena than me, so I look forward to any more news!

ohiogal

11-19-08, 09:09 PM

wkoi out of richmond indiana is getting sound drops and picture screw ups. i have a great signal but wkoi has been doing this way too much lately. anybody know where their transmitter is?

Vader

11-19-08, 09:18 PM

the new HD channels are pretty nice imho.

I think so to. Once the next few are added in December, I won't have any reason to venture out of the HD section anymore-- except for my Andy Griffith fix on TV Land. :D

hall

11-19-08, 09:39 PM

wikipedia says WKOI's tower is in Collinsville OH.

esjones

11-20-08, 06:40 PM

Yep, I noticed they were on this morning before work.
Yeah... the new HD channels now show on my TiVo guide, but no program info. Everything on the new channels shows "To Be Announced." Does anyone know how and when TiVo starts getting program info for new channels? When WDTN DT was added, I didn't get program info for that channel for close to a week!

Todd Charske

11-21-08, 09:24 AM

FYI I go to Paducah for my work. It's really not a bad little town. Right on the river close to the junction of the Ohio River and the Mississippi. Actually less depressed than my home town of Dayton. I go to a place that makes barge covers?!?!

- Todd Charske

Any news antennas since I posted last?

Vader

11-21-08, 06:15 PM

Has anyone heard what date the additional HD channels will show up in December?

jdchap

11-21-08, 08:35 PM

Yeah... the new HD channels now show on my TiVo guide, but no program info. Everything on the new channels shows "To Be Announced." Does anyone know how and when TiVo starts getting program info for new channels? When WDTN DT was added, I didn't get program info for that channel for close to a week!

esjones,

So you get the new HD channels with your TiVo? I understood that these channels were being made available using Switched Digital Video (SDV) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_digital_video) which isn't compatible with current TiVos. If you are getting them, were you able to get a "tuning adapter" from TWC that makes SDV work for you? Or perhaps I heard wrong about the SDV thing for this set of channels?

On Wednesday evening when I got home from work, the channels were sure "acting" like SDV because I was getting messages on some of the channels that said the channels were "not available at this time". That seems consistent with the workings of SDV on the first night, perhaps because of the "exploring" folks in my "cable block" were doing that first night. Or maybe something else entirely!

jdchap

11-21-08, 08:50 PM

Sorry I'm a little over a week or two late in updating this list, but WHIO and WDTN have changed channel/program numbers on TWC (perhaps in preparation for the new HD channels). So, for those of us who have to use the "actual" channel/program numbers in our tuners versus the "mapped" channel numbers, here's the updated list:

Ch-Program Service-Name Channel-Number
82-315 Preview
84-3 WRGT DT 45.1
84-4 WKEF-DT 22.1
84-18 WRGT-DT 45.2
108-5 16HD 16.6
108-6 16DT 16.2
108-7 16Again 16.3
108-8 16Creat 16.4
108-9 16 Ohio 16.5
108-10 14HD 14.6
108-11 14DT 14.2
108-12 14Prime 14.3
108-13 14Learn 14.4
108-14 14World 14.5
109-15 CET-HD 48.1
109-16 CETWrld 48.2
111-2 WHIO HD 7.1
111-22 WHIO SD 7.2
111-30 WDTN HD 2.1

Paul210

11-22-08, 09:10 AM

Thanks for the update.

Grogdamighty

11-22-08, 04:55 PM

Any word on when 64/WSTR will start broadcasting full 16:9 HD instead of a letter-boxed signal? I've recently discovered a show worth watching...

Nitewatchman

11-23-08, 02:44 AM

For Programs MyTV has in HD, WSTR Has them in HD as well --- Like the Movie "Great Expectations" earlier tonight 8~10pm ...

They also have Air Raycom Sports SEC Football in HD (As does WBDT-DT Dayton) ...

I have noticed they have apparently had issues with their video stream since they switched to sending 1080i(Note that MYTV Network feed is 720p, they currently convert it/broadcast 1080i), they switched from sending 720p to 1080i just before the 1st Raycom SEC games ... Especially, or perhaps even exclusively perhaps during MyTV HD programs sourced from film ....

Nitewatchman

11-25-08, 01:42 PM

Meant to post this some time ago, WLIO's CE has an excellent DTV site here -- It's probably the best "station based" DTV site I've seen, anywhere :

http://www.wlio.net/

Vader

11-25-08, 07:35 PM

Looks like there could be some more info regarding the new HD channels coming in December on TWC. This is from the "Channel Lineup Change Notifications" section on their TWC Dayton website:

"December potential adds: USA HD, Sci-Fi HD, MSNBC HD, Bravo HD, Science Channel HD, Animal Planet HD, ESPN News HD, FX HD, Weather Channel HD, Golf Channel HD, Versus HD, Big Ten Networks HD..."

In addition to those potential 12 new HD channels next month it has this add for the Premium HD Tier:

"add MGM HD to HD Premium Tier (channel 971 in Cincinnati, channel 760 in Dayton) on December 1."

Great news if it all comes to pass.

esjones

11-26-08, 10:04 PM

esjones,

So you get the new HD channels with your TiVo? I understood that these channels were being made available using Switched Digital Video (SDV) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switched_digital_video) which isn't compatible with current TiVos. If you are getting them, were you able to get a "tuning adapter" from TWC that makes SDV work for you? Or perhaps I heard wrong about the SDV thing for this set of channels?

On Wednesday evening when I got home from work, the channels were sure "acting" like SDV because I was getting messages on some of the channels that said the channels were "not available at this time". That seems consistent with the workings of SDV on the first night, perhaps because of the "exploring" folks in my "cable block" were doing that first night. Or maybe something else entirely!

John -

I'm on the waiting list for a tuning adapter from TWC, but so far I have not needed it to get the new HD channels on my TiVo HD. Nor have I seen the "not available" message that you report. I count myself lucky!

- Earl

hall

11-28-08, 03:40 PM

Does anyone have recommendations for reliable/trustworthy TV repair people in the Dayton area ? My TV is a Toshiba 57H83, a rear-projection unit, that needs what I believe is a "re-alignment" of the "guns". The auto-focus (convergence) nor the manual convergence is able to correct this. I suspect the cause is from moving the TV (too often ... re-arranging the living room). It's still watchable and really only is noticed when there's text on-screen, i.e. a news ticker or a channel "bug", or when the set-tops's menus (program guide) is on-screen.

Much like auto repair, I don't go for replacing multiple components and one of them is sure to fix the problem.

Nitewatchman

11-28-08, 11:37 PM

... I look forward to any more news!

Sorry for the delay, I had to wait until I had some time to wade through some of this stuff, again, as I'd read through much of it before but didn't take any notes ...

Most of the below is not really "new news" as not much has changed, but I don't think some of this stuff has been posted here before -- This will probably be the last time I dig through this stuff until Feb 17, except perhaps to see if there are any changes/updates from the Dayton/Cincinnati market stations.

For the most part --- I think what is of most interest* along with the info I posted previously(such as on WHIO's maximization app for Non-DA) .... Are the channel changes, (planned) Early analog shut offs, and potential early DTV tests on the new channels for stations changing channels. You might get a chance to see how your antenna works on those new channels a little earlier than Feb 17, if you want to tune around a bit in the wee hours on some nights.

So Follows is info on those for stations which I think are most-likely to be receivable from areas of Dayton or Lima Market :

* - except perhaps involving a couple of Ft Wayne stations, particuarly WFFT and a HUGE power increase I think they plan on implementing before 2/17/09 -- see post I provide a link to in ft wayne section thread for more info on Ft wayne market stations ....

---------------------------------------------------------------

Info on Area Post-transition Channel change, Early analog shut off stations, Possible "new channel" late-night on air tests per stations latest updated DTV transition Reports to FCC, as of 11/28/08 :

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Dayton :

WBDT - DTV currently on 18, Moving to 26, the current analog channel :

According to Exhibit 4 from the Feb 08 FCC form 387 WBDT has submitted, which is a form that tells FCC what their status is for the DTV transition -- A portion of exhibit 4 says WBDT plans to Test DTV on channel 26 using the top mount transmit antenna(currently used for analog 26) between the hours of Midnight and 5 A.M. After Dec 31, 2008 ...

I don't know if that means just one night, several nights or every night -- Note they did file an updated Form 387 in October 2008, in which they do refer to "exhibit 4", but it does not seem to be attached/included with the new/updated form, so I'm assuming they are referring to the exhibit 4 from the orignal form and that they are still planning on going ahead with those tests ...

WPTD - DTV Currently on 58, Moving to 16, the current analog channel :

I posted the info from their latest update to FCC in earlier post, so I won't go into too much detail -- I don't know from reading that if they are planning on doing any channel 16 DTV on-air testing with the antenna prior to feb 17, as I suppose it is possible the testing they refer to in their last update could potentially involve a "dummy load" rather than their transmit antenna ...

Perhaps others might have some info on that from ThinkTV (or perhaps one of the ThinkTV folks still hangs around here and can tell us) -- It does mention they plan on beginning some testing by Dec 12, with complete testing/proof of performance beginning December 19th, but they also say they plan on having the analog station up until Feb 17, and only specifically mention the DTV station being off air overnight/early morning November 20 ....

------------------------------------------------------

Lima :

WTLW - DTV Currently on 47, Moving to 44, the current analog channel - Plans Early analog shut off/Transition to digital on 44 By Dec 1, 2008.

Last update to FCC(October 2008) indicated they Plan to discontinue analog service early, and complete their transition(begin digital operations on channel 44) on December 1, 2008 .... They also told FCC "Because all necessary equipment is already on hand and no additional tower work is required, WTLW can reconfigure its transmitter and top-mounted antenna from analog to digital operations and commence post-transition digital service on channel 44 within one day. " ... Which would seem to indicate they were planning on discontinuing analog service on channel 44 sometime on Nov 30 or dec 1 .... If that plan hasn't changed, they would have to be notifying viewers of this, and I believe it would be the first analog shut off in this area, only a few days from now .....

Bowling Green, OH (officially, a Toledo Market station, but ...)

WBGU - DTV currently on 56, Moving to 27, the Current analog channel. Plans early analog shut off on Dec 14, 2008, and commencing DTV operations on channel 27 on Dec 15, 2008. :

WBGU's (digital currently out of core on 56) most recent DTV transition update to FCC (as of 10/17/08) stated their current goal(at that time) - "after proper notifications are made to the FCC and proper notifications are made to the public for 30 days" was to Discontinue analog service early, on December 14, 2008 and begin Digital operations on 27 on December 15, 2008 at full power ...

-------------------------------------------------

Muncie, IN - Note: I'm not sure which market BSU's WIPB is in :

WIPB - DTV currently on 52, Analog on 49. Post-transition DTV channel 23.

This one's a doozy ... As of their last update on October 21, 2008 -- The last report they sent FCC indicates they still have much work to do, including "extensive modifications" to the transmitter before they can begin post-transition operations on 23 ... The transmitter involved is the transmitter they are currently using to operate DTV on channel 52, and the work basically involves modifying 1/2 of the transmitter, initially, to operate on channel 23, while the other 1/2 of the transmitter continues operations on channel 52(until analog shut off).

I'm not sure what current power levels they're running on 52 as FCC records that I can find seem unclear on that. But, they say they plan on continuing DTV operations with "the remaining section of the transmitter" until analog shut off. Some of these modifications involve on-site work by the Transmitter manufactuer -- The first visit being scheduled for November, the second for April 2009. They noted they would apply to initially operate at 79KW ERP on 23, because they will not be able to operate their fully authorized 250KW ERP until afer Harris' 2nd visit, scheduled for April 2009 ...

ALSO, since nearby station WNDY analog, Muncie, IN operates on analog 23, they say they have contacted WNDY to coordinate "equipment testing" with them ... This seems to perhaps suggest there may be some on-air testing of DTV on 23 before Feb 17, but no specific info on any dates or times regarding that is given. It also states that WNDY plans to continue providing full analog service until the transition deadline.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Toledo :

WTOL - DTV Currently on 17, Moving to 11, their current analog channel :

Just a few days ago, they sent an update to FCC, as well as an application to modify their post-transition Construction permit (CP MOD) for maximized operation with the antenna they currently use for analog channel 11 operations ... Their current CP for post transition operation on channel 11 involves a "different" transmit antenna(directional/etc). They tell FCC they recently detirmined that they'll be able to better cover their service area, and avoid loss of service to "approx 1.5 Million" of it's current analog viewers by using the existing, non-directional channel 11 antenna, currently used by the analog station, with 15.9KW ERP. They say if the CP MOD is granted, they "...ANTICIPATES THAT IT WILL BE POSSIBLE TO CONSTRUCT THE 15.9 KW FACILITY IN SUFFICIENT TIME TO BEGIN OPERATION ON FEBRUARY 17, 2009, AFTER THE STATION PERMANENTLY DISCONTINUES ITS ANALOG OPERATIONS ON CHANNEL 11."

WTVG - DTV currently on 19, Moving to 13, their current analog channel.

Latest update to FCC (oct 2008) says they installed a new transmitter for DTV channel 13 operations in Oct 2007, and Performed Equipment tests at various times in October 2008, and are ready to shut down analog 13 and digital 19 Transmitter on Midnight, Feb 17 ... They also say " Immediately thereafter, WTVG will route the new channel 13 digital transmitter to the current WTVG NTSC antenna and commence digital broadcasts using this transmitter. Following the transition, WTVG intends to convert its existing NTSC transmitter to digital in order to provide redundancy for its digital operations on channel 13. No change to WTVG’s over-the-air service is anticipated as a result of this conversion. If WTVG deviates from this projected schedule, WTVG will notify the FCC accordingly. "

--------------------------------------------------------

Cincinnati - NOTE Updated 12/11/08 :

WKRC - DTV Currently on 31, Moving to 12, their current analog channel :

WKRC has plans to do a late night test of DTV on Channel 12 in the early AM hours Tuesday December 16,2008 -- More info and request for signal reports during the test from One of their engineers here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15248197#post15248197
--------------------------------------------------------------

Columbus :

Currently, there are no channel changes for DTV for Columbus market .. However, do note WSYX has petitioned FCC for a DTV channel change from 13 to 48 ... This may or may not happen, and if it does, is probably not very likely to occur before analog shut off ... do note that there have been interference concerns involved, as well as possible other "concerns" and possible "snafu's" of interest, such that it is not possible to say at this point whether or not it may be likely FCC may grant their petition, or how FCC may react or respond to the latest comments from WSYX on the matter ....

--------------------------

Fort Wayne :

Currently, there are no channel changes for DTV for Ft. Wayne Market, --- But there may be one, although if it does happen, I'd guess it probably won't actually happen until after Feb 17 :

In July, FCC discovered that a application for Maximization of WISE's DTV signal on 19 was found to be mutually exclusive with a maximization app filed by WXMI DTV channel 19, Grand Rapids, MI. That means they would interfere with each other in portions of these stations service area ....

WISE has proposed to solve this issue by " ...substitution of DTV channel 18 for its assigned DTV channel 19 at Fort Wayne."

FCC action on this may occur relatively soon, as the comment period for the proceeding has recently ended.

Note:

Looks like there may be some power increases/other items of interest regarding the FT Wayne stations and the near future or around Feb 17. There's a good summary in this post in Ft. Wayne Thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14825658#post14825658

Rudy1

12-01-08, 08:21 PM

I skimmed through a few of the many, many posts on this thread and I think I've got it right...but I just want to make sure. There's just one NBC affiliate available on TWC in Dayton, correct? :)

Jim111

12-01-08, 08:39 PM

Vader

12-01-08, 09:04 PM

MGM HD replaced Mojo on 760 (TWC) today.

jimp2244

12-01-08, 10:06 PM

I skimmed through a few of the many, many posts on this thread and I think I've got it right...but I just want to make sure. There's just one NBC affiliate available on TWC in Dayton, correct? :)Of course since Cincinnati's WLWT-DT's service area covers most of Dayton you could also receive it with a proper antenna set up.

Falcon_77

12-02-08, 11:07 AM

WTLW - DTV Currently on 47, Moving to 44, the current analog channel - Plans Early analog shut off/Transition to digital on 44 By Dec 1, 2008.

Thank you for the updates.

Can anyone confirm if WTLW turned off their analog signal yesterday? Thanks.

bari_old_dad

12-02-08, 11:22 AM

Just tried it on my wife's portable - no evidence that it's there. I'm getting WLIO on UHF 35 (analog) and the local CBS affiliate on 38, but there's nothing coming in between 40 & 50. I think the CBS affiliate WLMO is officially a "low power" broadcaster and should be weaker than WTLW if they were broadcasting.

hall

12-02-08, 12:38 PM

There was an article in Lima's newspaper saying WTLW was planning that yesterday.... http://www.limaohio.com/news/digital_31489___article.html/channel_today.html

No update in today's paper though. WTLW's website says this: WTLW TV closed the door on the analog era when it permanently shut down its transmitter on Monday, December 1st at 8:37 am. Seven hours later at 3:39 pm, a new digital era was ushered in by powering up the new digital Channel 44. By moving to the top mounted antenna at 207 meters, TV-44's signal should be much better received by viewers outside a 20 mile radius of our tower.

In other Lima TV news, the owner of WLIO bought Lima's FOX affiliate (and (3) low-power stations owned by the same guy who owns the FOX station) for, get this, only $2.3 million. That seems rather low to me.

Falcon_77

12-02-08, 03:26 PM

Thank you for the information. I will include this on the next spreadsheet update.

dtv insider

12-03-08, 03:18 PM

Saw a promo on WPTD-TV that DT transmitter is off 12-4-08 from 10:00am to 6:00pm looks likes the fun is starting.

ohiogal

12-04-08, 10:12 AM

thanks for the information, i just noticed that all the channel 16 channels were off the air. i forgot they were going to work on that.

ohiogal

12-04-08, 06:20 PM

its 6:20pm and channel 16 wtpd is still not up yet. what the heck are they doing. not going to watch any good pbs programming . where did somebody get the idea that they were going to be back up at 6:00 pm.

hall

12-04-08, 06:46 PM

Geez, maybe things didn't go exactly as they planned... Have you tried calling them to complain ?

ohiogal

12-04-08, 07:34 PM

well i emailed them. if i go upstairs to my parents bedroom i can be able to watch 16 in analog. i guess i will have to watch the boring shows on 14.

Trip in VA

12-04-08, 07:46 PM

Considering they're changing out and installing a bunch of equipment, and trying to do all of it in 8 hours and then bring the analog back up on top of that, I'd say to cut them some slack. I'm sure they'll get it back just as soon as they can.

- Trip

Nitewatchman

12-04-08, 11:47 PM

WPTD-DT was back up at 10pm (if not earlier). I didn't see the analog off air today.

Bad/unplanned things happen sometimes though, so don't be surprised if you catch stations off air for "longer than they planned" during planned outages ....

update: Oh, almost forgot --- There are Continuity/TEI errors occuring currently ONLY from the WPTD-DT stream with PIDs at 0x911 (other streams in the TS were fine when I checked it), which is likely their DEAS stream .... I've seen the same thing happen from WCET, and I've also seen such errors occur only in certian station's EITs (WCET and WHIO if I recall correctly) ....

WittFan

12-06-08, 05:20 PM

jimp2244

12-06-08, 08:07 PM

Looks like WHIO-DT has the UD Mens Basketball game on 7-2....

Paul210

12-07-08, 11:20 AM

Hello all. This is my first time posting and wanted to start out by thanking everybody for all the great information. It's certainly made my life easier.

I'm thinking about getting the digital package from Time Warner here in South Dayton. Does anybody know how I can find out before I make the jump which QAM channels Time Warner currently encrypts?

It would probably be easier to tell you which ones are in the clear. See this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15125029#post15125029) post:

hall

12-07-08, 12:27 PM

It would probably be easier to tell you which ones are in the clear. See this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15125029#post15125029) post: Doesn't that change rather indiscriminately though ? TW could turn them all off tomorrow if they wanted to and though some say they have to provide "in the clear", who enforces it ?

jimp2244

12-07-08, 01:32 PM

Doesn't that change rather indiscriminately though ? TW could turn them all off tomorrow if they wanted to and though some say they have to provide "in the clear", who enforces it ?The FCC enforces it... well, is supposed to enforce it. :)

hall

12-07-08, 02:16 PM

Yeah, that was my point, who actually enforces it ? On paper, it's the FCC. In reality, have they ever ?

esjones

12-09-08, 09:27 AM

Axlrod

12-09-08, 10:16 AM

Earl,

I'm using a Windows Media Center, with 4 CableCARDs, which is in the same boat ase the Tivo, but with out the Tuning Adapter in sight. I spent ALL DAY yesterday, trying to get a straight answer from TW(South West Ohio) about the state of SDV, and the new HD stations. I get 0 of them on my CableCARDs, and they very unhelpful. The Technical Staff is under the impression that ALL of the new channels (769-777) are SDV. I even went so far as to get a converter box to try to force the SDV stations to turn on in my node to get the signal to my CableCARDs. This didn't work, despite the fact that everything in the SDV design spec says that is should.

Time Warner's position is that because they are free (even though I have to pay for them), they DO NOT have to support them for their CableCARD customers.

I live in Centerville, and us Zap2it's "South of Dayton (digital)" listings to get my station ID's and Channel Guide information.

bari_old_dad

12-09-08, 07:25 PM

Kindly redirect me if this post is misplaced . . .

I have a Christmas present for my wife to replace her old c. 5" portable B&W analog TV, a Haier 7", like this one (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001E78UQY).

Well it's here and I've tried it. At best it finds only analog with the supplied "single rabbit ear" telescoping antenna. I tried a batman-bowtie RCA deal from Wal-mart (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10542272) and it failed miserably. Connected to the coax from my 91XG on the 50' tower, it works great and the picture is wonderful.

I don't think running coax from the tower-mounted antenna is an option - many signals, like WKEF, are already marginal and I fear I'll lose them if I start splitting the signal. I'd rather leave that devoted to the big screen upstairs.

I considered a contraption like this one by Highwayman (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13961378#post13961378) but iisn't that optimized for UHF, like other bow-tie antennas?

The only signal of interest is from WLIO Lima - channel 8 in Lima. Ideally, I need an "invisiible" solution that can be hidden in the closet. WLIO is 14 miles more-or-less to the north (16°), line-of-sight but through the house (wood frame) from where she watches this thing. Is the homemade bowtie stowed in the closet likely to work, or are there better solutions?

Profile generalized for our zip code . . . (http://www.2150.com/broadcast/default.asp?latitude=40.568978&longitude=-84.177378&magnetic_north=5.86&range=150&sort=distance&show_expired=False&show_construction=False&show_analog=False&show_low_power=False&action=Show+Stations)

TIA
JR in Wapak

Nitewatchman

12-09-08, 08:56 PM

I don't think running coax from the tower-mounted antenna is an option - many signals, like WKEF, are already marginal and I fear I'll lose them if I start splitting the signal. I'd rather leave that devoted to the big screen upstairs.

Still, It might be worthwhile to try a 2 way splitter, should be convienient enough for a test at the upstairs TV location. Given you are using CM7777, which has plenty of gain, and which is really only useful to recover losses in feedline and splitter (and potentially lower system NF by a few Db) ... It *might* not make things worse for your main set ....

The only signal of interest is from WLIO Lima - channel 8 in Lima. Ideally, I need an "invisiible" solution that can be hidden in the closet. WLIO is 14 miles more-or-less to the north (16°), line-of-sight but through the house (wood frame) from where she watches this thing. Is the homemade bowtie stowed in the closet likely to work, or are there better solutions?

The homemade Bowtie setup is UHF antenna. For VHF channel 8 reception, You'd likely be better off with something like this homemade VHF antenna cut for channel 8 :

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

Cut it for channel 8 - 180~186MHZ, might want to cut it for 180MHZ first, not sure if it would work any better cut for 180MHZ or say middle of channel, about 183MHZ. Also, instead of using twinlead to TV for transmission line, I might try the twinlead as transmission line first, but you might want to use a balun at or near the "T". Twinlead is lower loss than Coax, but it's notorius for picking up interference (add a full twist every 12" in the Twinlead as transmission line however, and it will help with that significantly) .....

That antenna should be really easy to move around/tack up/place in closet(if it works there)/etc.

If that(which is a better antenna than the "rabbit ears" on most indoor antennas) doesn't do the trick, then the next step up I can thing of is you might want to look into something like this(price looks pretty good too) :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?prod=Y5-7-13

Impossible to say whether or not you might need to get it or the homemade 1/2 wavelength dipole outdoors or into the attic vs "in the closet" or not, but if the Y-5-7-13 doesn't work well enough indoors(It should certianly work fine outdoors), it's probably going to be difficult to find something which will .....

Note : Someone posted in Cincinnati thread they ordered the Y-5-7-13 from solid signal today, and received a reply saying it was currently out of stock/it might be a while before order is shipped ...

There are also some Antennacraft OH distributors listed on their website , including in Dayton And columbus areas :

http://www.antennacraft.net/states/OH.html

Also IN/Ft wayne :

http://www.antennacraft.net/states/IN.html

Or, it says you can order direct from them (although, the SolidSignal price is currently about $7 cheaper) :

http://www.antennacraft.net/web_prices.html

WittFan

12-09-08, 09:10 PM

It would probably be easier to tell you which ones are in the clear. See this post:

So it looks like the only stations TW sends using ClearQAM are the local stations. That's too bad. "Upgrading" to digital would actually set me back because 1) I'm already getting these channels for free OTA and 2) my free DVR wouldn't work anymore. Looks like I'm sticking with good old-fashioned analog cable for now.:(

Thanks for the info.

uabcar

12-10-08, 01:07 AM

When TWC announced the new HD channels for Nov, they noted that several more were planned for Dec. Has anyone seen anything new on this or an ETA?

Chesskid1

12-10-08, 01:35 AM

yea they are adding science channel hd, animal planet hd, espnnewshd, golf channel hd on dec 30. don't really care for any of them i'm afraid.

bari_old_dad

12-10-08, 10:37 AM

Still, It might be worthwhile to try a 2 way splitter, should be convienient enough for a test at the upstairs TV location. Given you are using CM7777, which has plenty of gain, and which is really only useful to recover losses in feedline and splitter (and potentially lower system NF by a few Db) ... It *might* not make things worse for your main set ....

The homemade Bowtie setup is UHF antenna. For VHF channel 8 reception, You'd likely be better off with something like this homemade VHF antenna cut for channel 8 :

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

Thanks for the advice - I have a roll of 300 ohm down-lead so that will be easy to try. I suppose I could easily try the splitter too - simple enough to try out. Adding 'another' in-line amplifier is NOT a good idea, correct?

I notice coax splitters and "combiners" are sold separately. Are they really different?

JR

esjones

12-10-08, 03:52 PM

I think the FCC might disagree about TWC's obligation to support CableCARDs. I have heard that threatening FCC complaints sometimes moves cable companies to action, so I might have to resort to that.

Vader

12-10-08, 05:55 PM

When TWC announced the new HD channels for Nov, they noted that several more were planned for Dec. Has anyone seen anything new on this or an ETA?

As Chesskid1 said, they are adding Science Channel HD, Animal Planet HD, ESPN News HD, and the Golf Channel HD on Dec 30. In addition, they state that they are involved in discussions to get USA HD & Sci-Fi HD added too, but no date for those.

I'm really pleased with the recent additions to TWC's HD lineup. I'm looking forward to the Dec 30 adds too (except I couldn't care less about Golf HD). Since the adds in November, I haven't had to venture out of the 700s when surfing with the exception of TV Land. For so long, TWC's HD lineup was pretty anemic. So it's nice to see them finally bolster their offerings. Now if we could only get those networks to actually show HD programming more of the time.... :D

skylab

12-10-08, 06:38 PM

I think the FCC might disagree about TWC's obligation to support CableCARDs. I have heard that threatening FCC complaints sometimes moves cable companies to action, so I might have to resort to that.

I would file a complaint with the FCC. You may also want to file a comment in proceeding 97-80 here: http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/ecfs/

You can browse the filings there and see other consumer complaints. http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/comsrch_v2.cgi

As a result of some of those complaints, Time Warner cable was recently fined for moving HDTV channels to SDV. The FCC found that TWC's actions violated the Tellecommunications Act of 1996.

Edit: Here is a link to the FCC's decision: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-08-2301A1.pdf

Nitewatchman

12-11-08, 12:51 AM

For those of you who receive Cincinnati stations but don't read Cincy thread :

WKRC currently has plans to do a late night test of DTV on Channel 12 in the early AM hours Tuesday December 16,2008 -- More info and a request for signal reports during the test from One of their engineers here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15248197#post15248197

p.s. - I also updated my earlier post concerning stations which are moving/etc with this info ....

dtv insider

12-11-08, 04:04 PM

jimp2244

12-11-08, 11:16 PM

House Passes DTV Transition Bill

Last night, legislation authored by Rep. Lois Capps (D-Calif.) and Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.) was approved by the U.S. House by unanimous consent.
The legislation allows for the short-term continued analog broadcast of essential information after the Feb. 18, nationwide transition to digital television, including broadcasts of emergency information.
The Senate version was approved last month by unanimous consent. The legislation now goes to the President who is expected to sign the bill.
Specifically, the legislation directs the FCC to develop and implement a program by Jan. 15 to encourage and permit, where technically feasible, the continued broadcasting of analog signals with DTV education information and emergency messaging after the Feb. 17 transition date. The program will be in effect for a 30-day period beginning Feb. 18.I would like to see how logistically this would work... Obviously with stations moving around and changing power levels and antenna heights it may not quite work out for many analog broadcasts... WKRC Cincinnati currently broadcasts digital on channel 41 but will be using their analog antenna an channel (12) after the transition, so obviously they can't then broadcast analog on channel 12... I realize it says "where technically feasible," but I wonder how that will be determined.

Trip in VA

12-11-08, 11:24 PM

The FCC will probably ask for volunteers. In Cincinnati, it could be WLWT, since they'll only have to shut off the analog and be done. In Dayton, WDTN would make sense.

There only needs to be one in each market, assuming the market can be reasonably expected to receive all stations.

- Trip

jimp2244

12-11-08, 11:26 PM

Trip in VA

12-11-08, 11:39 PM

The stations themselves.

WJBK in Detroit already volunteered in a filing I saw a few weeks ago.

- Trip

Nitewatchman

12-12-08, 12:00 AM

Trip in VA

12-12-08, 12:52 AM

Add another to the list, KETC in St Louis has also volunteered in a recent filing, and they're a PBS.

- Trip

realityboy

12-12-08, 01:52 AM

I use a TiVo HD with a CableCard to decode TWC's digital channels. In November, I started receiving the first group of new HD channels (most of them, anyway), and it took TiVo a couple of weeks to start showing program guide information for them.

BUT, I don't get ALL of the announced new channels. Absent are CNN HD, Hallmark Movie HD and Palladia HD. Are these channels using SDV? I have put my name on TWC's wait list for a tuning adapter, but nothing seems to be happening on that front.

If anyone else in the area uses TiVo HD with a CableCard, I'd like to compare experiences. Thanks.

- Earl

I have a series 3 with cablcards, and this is the exact same behavior that I am getting. Those 3 channels are not coming through. Also, the channel that says it is ESPNU HD was actually Big Ten last I checked and not HD, and I cannot get the SD version of the Hallmark Movie channel either. On
my cable box, I can't check the HD channels since it only has SD but checking Hallmark Movie channel sometimes I get the message that the channel is currently unavailable on the cable box and other times it works. This seems like the way SDV would work or at least, very poorly implemented SDV since there is no way I should receive the channel not available with this few channels on SDV.

realityboy

12-12-08, 01:56 AM

Also, I saw that you mentioned in an earlier post that you had signed up on the waiting list for a tuning adapter. Is there a link to somewhere on TW's website where I can sign up? I haven't been able to find a link for this area.

Chesskid1

12-12-08, 06:39 AM

go to time warner website. go to search. type in tuning adapter. click on the link.

jimp2244

12-12-08, 07:37 AM

Agree the lo-VHF's especially make sense for this, since them staying up an extra 30 days really probably wouldn't impact anyone else's plans (around here) ....

Still, I'm just hoping there aren't many around here that stay on the extra 30 days ...

I've waited long enough for analog shut off, and *especially* can't wait for WDTN and WLWT analogs to go dark (For selfish "dx'ing" purposes of course), and also can't wait to pull out the traps I have in line on one antenna setup knocking down WDTN, WHIO and WKEF analogs ....Actually during the 30 day transition period it might be a fun time for "last chance of a lifetime" lo-VHF analog DXing. With less stations on the air in that range we might be able to see some things that we never have before and never will again. Of course February isn't a great DX month anyway, right?

jimp2244

12-12-08, 07:39 AM

The stations themselves.Yeah that's what I figured... Wondering what benefit the local station will get by volunteering. I wonder if the "good PR" is enough to offset the money it will take to run that transmitter. At least most so far are as discussed, lo-VHF so the bills will be lower.

Nitewatchman

12-13-08, 03:18 AM

Actually during the 30 day transition period it might be a fun time for "last chance of a lifetime" lo-VHF analog DXing. With less stations on the air in that range we might be able to see some things that we never have before and never will again.

It's pretty rare I get to see much DX on 2 and 5 through WDTN or WLWT's blow torch signals, that's what I was referring to .... ;) ... For example, I do believe I did get close to a lock on what was probably KOTA-DT a couple of times, but couldn't quite get there because of WDTN's strong signal, whearas other DX'ers in the region (such as goldrich and Max_Hd in IN and a fellow in Lexington) were able to decode KOTA-DT during those openings ...

What would really be nice is if we had some early analog shut off's for some of the locals .. For an example that's not going to happen but just saying --- if WKRC shut down on 12 for a while, but kept the DT 0n 31 until Feb 17 -- You could see DX on 12 you'd never see when they (analog or DT) are on air ....

But sure, especially if WDTN, WAVE, WCMH, WTTV, WLWT, WRTV and WSYX were to go down feb 17 but other U.S. lo-VHF stations stay up an extra month that might be nice, especially if we happen to get any decent eskip opening(not likely in feb but it happens) .....

It won't be the last lo-VHF analog DX ... Receiving Cuban, Mexican and Canadian stations via E-skip is fairly common around here .... There are LP analogs that'll still be up on lo-VHF as well .... Or for Tropo on Hi-VHF/UHF, the analog LP's and Canadian stations .... Getting Id's can be quite difficult from Canadian and cuban stations however .....

I've seen plenty of analog DX on Lo-VHF though, it's really the DTV lo-VHF logs via E-skip I'm looking for ....

It will be a "whole new world" here for DX after analog shut off with only TWO locals on VHF, and only two nearby lo-VHF's (WDKY-DT and they want to move to 31 and WLMB-DT 5 Toledo) .... I can hardly imagine it, and can't wait ....

Of course February isn't a great DX month anyway, right?

Generally, no, but it happens in Feburary too occasionally ... .... There was even a nice E-skip opening during Superbowl a few years ago ....

--------------

Of course, all of that and dx'ing is "just for fun" .... It's probably too late now, but several years ago when it became apparent it was likely few stations would end up on lo-VHF, I'd thought it might be a good idea to continue a "analog lifeline" service on lo-VHF until such time it died a "natural" death ... In most markets, even existing analog-Lo VHF stations facilities could be utilized, but perhaps other stations in the market which participate in Maintainance/utility/operating costs for the lo-VHF analog lifeline station could then have airtime on it for their programming ....

Some "selfisness" there of course too, so my handheld analog-only TV wouldn't become a doorstop and would keep working during power outages/etc ....

Really though, for purposes of the DTV transition --- I'm not sure having some stations up an extra 30 days is going to help any, and of course, there are still going to be analog LP's that are up .....

uabcar

12-13-08, 12:10 PM

yea they are adding science channel hd, animal planet hd, espnnewshd, golf channel hd on dec 30. don't really care for any of them i'm afraid.
I agree. I was hoping for more - would like the weather channel and CNBC. I also have Dish network - with the absolute HD package they offered for a couple months earlier this year- it's a great package- but I only have it on two tv's. I would like to drop one or the other. (if/when Dish add's HD local's- then TWC may go, if TWC adds a few more HD channels I care about, then consider getting rid of Dish)

Jim111

12-13-08, 02:17 PM

I agree. I was hoping for more - would like the weather channel and CNBC. I also have Dish network - with the absolute HD package they offered for a couple months earlier this year- it's a great package- but I only have it on two tv's. I would like to drop one or the other. (if/when Dish add's HD local's- then TWC may go, if TWC adds a few more HD channels I care about, then consider getting rid of Dish)

I don't care about the new HD channels they're adding Dec 30th either.

I'm disappointed that they still aren't picking up USA HD. Monk & Burn Notice are returning in January.

bari_old_dad

12-13-08, 09:54 PM

<snip> For VHF channel 8 reception, You'd likely be better off with something like this homemade VHF antenna cut for channel 8 :

http://www.wfu.edu/~matthews/misc/dipole.html

Cut it for channel 8 - 180~186MHZ, might want to cut it for 180MHZ first, not sure if it would work any better cut for 180MHZ or say middle of channel, about 183MHZ. Also, instead of using twinlead to TV for transmission line, I might try the twinlead as transmission line first, but you might want to use a balun at or near the "T". Twinlead is lower loss than Coax, but it's notorius for picking up interference (add a full twist every 12" in the Twinlead as transmission line however, and it will help with that significantly) .....

That antenna should be really easy to move around/tack up/place in closet(if it works there)/etc.

Tried a few versions of the folded dipole yesterday . . . the ugliest worked the best. For prettiness I went to R-shack and got an FM antenna of the same construct, but made with clear / translucent insulation (versus dark brown like my down-lead was - also from the 'shack as I recall) - seems these ship with most less-than-bottom-shelf FM receivers these days. Anyhow cut it down for the 180 MHz; it worked better after shortening the down-lead. I have enough left-over down-lead to make another antenna.

It is still marginal in the back of the house - which is where I need it to work. It's conceivable I could put it closer to the front and sneak coax back to where my wife wants to watch the thing (essential it can be seen from the bathroom).

The difference between 180 and 183 seems so small, especially for ½ wavelength . . . do you think it will make any difference (easier to shorten than lengthen, as I think you anticipated)?

How essential is it that the center tap is "centered"?

Thanks for the ideas I am getting closer to a solution, and can experiment less clandestinely after another 11 days or so . . .

FWIW - I think the dipole - tuned for channel 8 - gets the analog broadcasts at 25, 35, and 38 better than the rabbit 'ear', and also gets 44 WTLW-DT very nicely. They are higher power (?) than WLIO (8) but I understand the VHF is supposed to go farther . . .

JR in OH

Nitewatchman

12-14-08, 12:38 AM

Oops, sorry JR, I missed your earlier post, well "earlier" ;)

Adding 'another' in-line amplifier is NOT a good idea, correct?

Difficult to say, really ... Generally usually not, but there are cases when it can be, such as if you have a really long feedline run (like say 300ft and are using RG6), or are splitting the signal a LOT ... When it is beneifical, it is important to put it in the "right place", but certianly Won't hurt to try it if you have one laying around ..

I notice coax splitters and "combiners" are sold separately. Are they really different?

No, if you are talking about a hybrid splitter/combiner - Which for the 2-way type is just a 'standard 2-way splitter" and can be used either way - as a splitter or combiner. However, as far as I can think of at the moment you typically would only use it as a combiner if you were stacking identical type/model of multiple antennas, aimed in the same direction for increased gain and directivity. For example, "combining" seperate VHF/UHF antennas onto the same feedline with one of these is usually not a good idea, as the VHF antenna will typically receive some UHF signal and the UHF antenna on VHF, and the antennas will be out of phase and this will effect the performance of both antennas ..

However, you're probably talking about a Splitter/combiner vs a VHF/UHF combiner(can also be used as a seperator, and is sometimes called a "joiner") which is different, as one port passes only VHF signals, the other only UHF only signals. There is a VHF/UHF combiner in your CM7777 for instance, to be used with the seperate VHF/UHF inputs if you don't have it "set" for VHF/UHF combined on a single input.

Suppose it's possible a "powered" splitter (should have just a "small" amp in it, just enough to recover the split - Most VCR's/equipment with "RF out" jacks have such amps in them because the signal is split internally in the, say, VCR, with one side going to the tuner and the other going to the RF out jack) might be worthwhile to try, ... But, of course even those can cause problems if the amp involved or your receiver's front end is "overloaded" by nearby strong signal, which might not necessarily be a "TV signal" ...

Tried a few versions of the folded dipole yesterday . . . the ugliest worked the best. For prettiness I went to R-shack and got an FM antenna of the same construct, but made with clear / translucent insulation (versus dark brown like my down-lead was - also from the 'shack as I recall) - seems these ship with most less-than-bottom-shelf FM receivers these days. Anyhow cut it down for the 180 MHz; it worked better after shortening the down-lead. I have enough left-over down-lead to make another antenna.

Hmmm ... Well, the thing is, I don't remember where in the garage I stuffed some of those FM antennas to say for sure, but I think those FM antennas may be be a center fed 1/2 wavelength "simple"(my word to distinghuish it from a folded dipole) dipole in which case its impedance would be 73 Ohm, balanced.

The *folded dipole* described in the link, however, like most TV antennas is 300ohm impedance, balanced. Twisting the ends of the conductors on the twinlead together on the "antenna part" of it is what makes it a folded dipole rather than a "simple" dipole.

Coax is 75 ohm, unbalanced, 300 ohm twinlead is 300 ohms balanced -- the size of the conductors used and spacing between them is what "makes it" 300 ohm. The 300 balanced to 75Ohm unbalanced or vice-versa balun(BAl-un = Balanced to unbalanced - often called "matching transformer) your probably using to hook the thing to your TV set prevents an impedance mismatch only if it's hooked to a 300 Ohm antenna(or 300 ohm twinlead as the transmission line) and a 75 ohm unbalanced input on the TV(or 75 ohm coax as feedline, such as RG59 or RG6) .... This is also probably the reason some VHF "rabbit ears" don't seem to work very well, as some (or many?) seem to be designed with a "built in" impedance mismatch ...

There's more too it, but for simplicity's sake, A impedance mismatch basically means you will lose some of the antenna's signal gain .....

Also, "practically" speaking, FWIW, in my experience when I've played around a little with those FM antennas a bit that come with FM receivers these days, the *folded dipole* (connecting the wires of the twinlead together make it a folded dipole, the FM antenna is a "simple" dipole) made out of twin lead seemed to work significantly better than one of those FM antennas ...

But, if it works good for you/as good as the twinlead folded dipole to achieve reliable reception, it doesn't really matter ... If it doesn't though, you could of course paint the twinlead if you want if it makes it less visable/ugly ....

The difference between 180 and 183 seems so small, especially for ½ wavelength . . . do you think it will make any difference (easier to shorten than lengthen, as I think you anticipated)?

Nah, I wouldn't shorten it any more ....

How essential is it that the center tap is "centered"?

Very .... a *off-center" fed dipole has different impedance characteristics (another way to get a impedance mismatch) ......

--------------------------

BTW, here's an article that describes some of the above much more accurately and in better detail than the above :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipole_antenna

And here's some info on "off center fed dipoles" in this case for Ham use(Ham's typically use 50 Ohm loads, btw) (if you want to make one, it's possible - You'll probably have to construct your own coax balun for it, though) :

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:Yc0VfqsFCCsJ:www.yccc.org/Articles/Antennas/N1IW/OCFD_basic.ppt+Center%2Bfed%2Bdipole%2Bimpedance&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

More useful antenna info here(probably more understandable than the wikipedia link I posted above) if I haven't posted this link recently :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Chesskid1

12-17-08, 03:54 AM

man, the graphic feeds for winter closing is horrible. they are showing conan in SD on the HD channel, for they can have the graphics and some other channel squished primetime shows. meh.

hall

12-17-08, 09:00 AM

man, the graphic feeds for winter closing is horrible. they are showing conan in SD on the HD channel, for they can have the graphics and some other channel squished primetime shows. meh. You listening WDTN ? Time to break out the checkbook.... WHIO doesn't have this problem (anymore). They used to though. If they had to run crawls on 7.1, they'd have to drop to the SD feed, but it's been a year or more since that's been necessary.

How is WRGT and WKEF ? I haven't paid enough attention, to be honest.

browerjs

12-17-08, 12:01 PM

You listening WDTN ? Time to break out the checkbook.... WHIO doesn't have this problem (anymore). They used to though. If they had to run crawls on 7.1, they'd have to drop to the SD feed, but it's been a year or more since that's been necessary.

How is WRGT and WKEF ? I haven't paid enough attention, to be honest.

I agree that WDTN needs to get it together with their crawls. However, WHIO also needs to up their resolution on their crawls. They look horrible, seem out of focus, jaggy.

On another note does anyone know if NBC broadcasts the Today Show in HD on Saturday mornings? If so WDTN never shows it in HD. It's in HD Sunday-Friday on WDTN...

mlbUC

12-17-08, 12:14 PM

WDTN doesn't have anybody in the newsroom on Saturday's either, I don't think since they never do any of the local cut-ins.

hall

12-17-08, 10:42 PM

Well, WKEF is pretty bad after all.... We'd recorded Charlie Brown Christmas and just watched it tonight. Admittedly, it was 4:3 to begin with, but WKEF had a graphic with the list of closings that were cycling through their list. Then, below that, they had a crawl promoting their "storm center" or something or other bullsh*t. I should have measured the size of the picture relative to the stuff they added. Maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of the picture was taken away.

browerjs

12-18-08, 08:29 AM

Paul210

12-18-08, 10:23 AM

...does anyone know if NBC broadcasts the Today Show in HD on Saturday mornings? If so WDTN never shows it in HD. It's in HD Sunday-Friday on WDTN...

They're always screwing something up. You are correct--the Today Show is supposed to be HD, even on weekends.

During the week when they switch from the network feed for the local weather, they seem to have a need to do it about a minute before they need to and stay 4:3 for about a minute afterwards. Maybe I'm silly, but I like watching the weather graphics in HD. It always looks nice.

I pretty much quit watching WDTN in favor of WLWT.

browerjs

12-18-08, 12:51 PM

They're always screwing something up. You are correct--the Today Show is supposed to be HD, even on weekends.

During the week when they switch from the network feed for the local weather, they seem to have a need to do it about a minute before they need to and stay 4:3 for about a minute afterwards. Maybe I'm silly, but I like watching the weather graphics in HD. It always looks nice.

I pretty much quit watching WDTN in favor of WLWT.

They used to never even switch to the local weather, and you could hear the cast talking to the producer/audience beneath the national weathermap. They still occassionaly miss the switch, in fact this morning they missed the first one.

Paul210

12-18-08, 01:03 PM

Ah, the famous Al Roker cutaway: Ladies and gentlemen, we always have to make sure our director, Joe Michaels, is awake. Can you all say, "Wake up, Joe Michaels". And he's a HUGE fan of Robin Williams. Can you all say, "Jumanji, hi-def Joe". Thank you!

browerjs

12-18-08, 01:49 PM

w.g

12-20-08, 05:44 PM

Dish Network has Cincinnati locals in HD, but here's the catch, you have to have a dish pointed at 77 degree.

hall

12-21-08, 08:51 AM

Anyone who signs up today will get a dish setup pointed there. Existing customers would have to switch to a Turbo HD package or buy and pay for installation of a dish themselves.

ohiogal

12-23-08, 09:48 PM

channel 26 the daytons cw normally has great signal where i live, but tonight its crappy.
anybody know where their transmitter is?

hall

12-23-08, 10:41 PM

WBDT's tower is in the same general location as all of Dayton's other TV station towers (SW Dayton).

bari_old_dad

12-28-08, 05:36 PM

In the last month or so I obtained a ZAT502 tuner; maybe not coincidentally I see brightness fluctuations or "hunting" on certain broadcasts. Seeing it a lot today on WHIO's broadcast of the Jets-Dolphins game. I didn't notice any on the Bengals-Chiefs. Is it just me or does anyone else notice the brightness / contrast "hunt" as the shot changes (zooms)?

ZAT502 connected via HDMI (1020i in & out) to an '05 vintage Olevia LT42HVi, good signal via mast-mounted 91XG / CM7777 preamp.

Rudy1

12-29-08, 02:25 PM

Does anyone know which of the networks will be carrying the parade in hidef in the Dayton viewing area?

jimp2244

12-29-08, 03:26 PM

Does anyone know which of the networks will be carrying the parade in hidef in the Dayton viewing area?
NBC and ABC will both carry it in HD, so you can watch on any of the following:

WDTN-DT (NBC Dayton)
WKEF-DT (ABC Dayton)
WLWT-DT (NBC Cincinnati)
WCPO-DT (ABC Cincinnati)

Chesskid1

12-30-08, 03:19 AM

TWC has added sci fi hd and USA hd so far, still adding more channels probably. wee.

778: Sci FI HD
779: USA HD
780: Animal Planet HD
781: Science Channel HD
782: Espn NEWS HD
783: Golf HD

sweet additions!

Vader

12-30-08, 05:14 PM

Good stuff. Hopefully they add a few more, but I'm happy as-is.

robmadden1

12-31-08, 03:19 PM

NBC Weather Plus totally gone from WLWT 5.2. It's now the Power of 5 Radar Network.

Jim111

01-01-09, 05:31 PM

USA HD was a pleasant surprise. You wouldn't know it by the Time Warner web site, though. That thing needs updated.

esjones

01-05-09, 11:17 AM

I was thrilled to see SciFi HD appear, especially with the finale of Battlestar Galactica starting Jan 16.

mutex

01-05-09, 02:07 PM

jimp2244

01-05-09, 02:44 PM

I live in the bellbrook area.

I live in an apartment so i prefer an indoor antennae, but i want to get channel 64 which is around 37 miles away. Anyone know any good antennas that will get that channel?

ThanksYou can try an indoor antenna but chances are it won't work solidly. Whatever you try, it will help to put it near a window facing the direction of the transmitting tower, and the higher the better. Silver Sensor (e.g. http://rover.ebay.com/ar/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?mpt=410175168&adtype=1&size=1x1&type=3&campid=5336055023&toolid=10001 http://www.amazon.com/Philips-PM-HDTV1-Silver-Sensor-Antenna/dp/B00022O9VM (http://www.amazon.com/gp/redirect.html?ie=UTF8&location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FPhilips-PM-HDTV1-Silver-Sensor-Antenna%2Fdp%2FB00022O9VM&tag=5336055023-20&linkCode=ur2&camp=1789&creative=9325)) or something similar might be worth a try. Ideally a proper set up would involve an outdoor antenna. All Dayton digitals are on UHF and WSTR-DT is also on UHF. Other Cincinnati digitals are also on UHF except WCPO-DT which is on VHF channel 10 and WKRC-DT which, while currently is on UHF 31, will be on VHF 12 starting in February. So, depending on what you are interested in receiving, a UHF only antenna may be enough, or you can add a Hi-VHF antenna or get a VHF/UHF combo.

hyghwayman

01-06-09, 12:15 PM

I live in the bellbrook area.

I live in an apartment so i prefer an indoor antennae, but i want to get channel 64 which is around 37 miles away. Anyone know any good antennas that will get that channel?

Thanks

Make your own Homemade antenna like this one I have in my sons room. We live in Miamisburg in a garden apt 1/2 under ground behind hills.
http://bfngrg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1psio5QMXoHayMJls2P9RA5X9ZbAPmCLrPL1laSbgnxBmGchzzHMpxpm51Z MzdPrT5yP1fes3wqmw/My%201st%20Antenna.JPG

There is a thread here on AVS about making antennas ; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798265

I made this for less than $10.oo. It works a lot better than any store bought antenna I've ever tried. If you would like more info send me a PM, I would be happy to help ya.

hyghwayman

darbfork

01-16-09, 01:26 PM

Has anyone else noticed a problem with 5.1 sound on WHIO? For the past week we have had problems w/no sound other than a low signal from the sub-woofer. Network shows are okay, but commercials and promotion segmants are affected (no complaint there). This happens whether viewing via Time-Warner cable or over the air. This is the only station affected all other channels are normal.

Whodey_Beanie

01-16-09, 05:31 PM

sly_cat_74

01-18-09, 09:26 PM

Hello everyone, I live a few miles west of Lima and was wondering if anyone in the area can pick up a HD fox feed? Dayton would be best I think. I'm thinking about putting up a tower and a rotor, but would like to know if it's possible first.

I live NE of Lima (just off Bluelick) and I am able to receive Fox 36 digital out of Toledo with an antenna in my attic. (I also receive 11, 13, and 24 all digital out of Toledo )

mr.freon

01-19-09, 06:06 PM

Hello everyone, I live a few miles west of Lima and was wondering if anyone in the area can pick up a HD fox feed? Dayton would be best I think. I'm thinking about putting up a tower and a rotor, but would like to know if it's possible first.

I'm located north of Celina and receive 45 from Dayton at 100% signal strength. Once channel 55 out of Ft. Wayne completes their upgrade you should be able to get that one as well.

trevsprunger

01-21-09, 08:30 PM

Just wondering if anyone knows whether or not the Lima stations will go digital? I live west of Lima in Berne,IN and just get analog.

Trip in VA

01-21-09, 11:29 PM

Just wondering if anyone knows whether or not the Lima stations will go digital? I live west of Lima in Berne,IN and just get analog.

WLIO-DT 8 is at full power and operational.

WTLW-DT 44 flash-cut a month or two ago.

The others are low-powered and unaffected by the digital transition...

- Trip

ohiogal

01-23-09, 12:52 PM

well i switched our attenna so that we can pick up up all the dayton stations. its a small sacrifice to lose the cinci stations. but thats ok.

magic507

01-24-09, 08:59 AM

WDTN-TV back on Time Warner Cable

Dayton Daily News

By John Nolan
Staff Writer

Wednesday, October 29, 2008

Time Warner Cable has reached an agreement with LIN TV Corp., owner of Dayton NBC affiliate WDTN-TV, Channel 2, that will allow immediate restoration of WDTN's programming to Time Warner's local cable signal, Time Warner said.

The deal ended a standoff of nearly one month. LIN, based in Providence, R.I., had demanded that Time Warner pay it for carrying local signals of LIN-owned television stations. Time Warner balked at the demand, saying that it was trying to control costs for its cable subscribers.
"Early this morning, we reached an agreement with LIN," said Pamela McDonald, a Time Warner Cable spokeswoman based in Cincinnati.
Time Warner was taking steps to immediately restore WDTN's programming to its local cable offering, including launching the high-definition signal, McDonald said.

She gave no details of the agreement. It also covers other television stations that LIN owns in cities including Indianapolis and Austin, Texas.
WDTN's signal was removed from Time Warner's local cable offerings on Oct. 2, after the prior agreement between the companies had expired. Negotiations had continued since then.

Is anyone here from the Lima area and familiar with this deal? When the dispute was going on, we lost FOX HD (WUPW) both through the cable box and using built-in tuners. After the dispute ended, Findlay OH started receiving WUPW again through the cable box (736) and Lima OH did not. However, Lima can receive it using a tuner in the television.

I have called Time Warner numerous times and been provided with different explanations, all of which dont make sense.

-One person said the dispute was resolved, but the channel was moved to a different station and they didn't know why we weren't receiving it.

-Another said that YES Findlay receives WUPW, but Lima does not (even though we did before the dispute)

-Another person said the dispute was not resolved for Lima OH...

Just wondered what was going on.

mlbUC

01-26-09, 09:43 AM

Looks like WDTN has gotten HD graphics. They were scrolling delays this morning on the Today show without switching to SD.

They squeezed the picture up, in case you were wondering.

Nitewatchman

01-26-09, 07:43 PM

Also notice Jeopardy up in HD on WDTN Tonight, not sure if that's happened before ... Caught a few minutes of "Trek:TOS" on WDTN Saturday Night and thought it looked better than it has from WDTN as well ... Are they distrubiting Trek:TOS in "4x3" HD ? WCPO's late night showings have looked awfully good for quite some time as well ...

BTW, the past several months Also have noticed several syndicated shows in Late Night hours (such as Late Sunday Nights) HD on WKEF/WRGT and WHIO (CSI Miami, Desparate Housewives/etc) ... OTOH, I've only noticed "Oprah" HD on WKEF a couple of times around the time it moved from WDTN to WKEF .... then again, I don't watch it, but everytime I've checked it the last couple of weeks it was SD from WKEF (HD an hour earlier on WCPO) ....

bari_old_dad

01-26-09, 08:11 PM

Yes, Alex Trebek in 1080i - wonderful. Big blue screens with white lettering - bandwidth could be better used I suppose.

Logged on the express my thanks to the engineers and techs at WKEF and WBGT for relaxing with the screen garbage and shrinkage during our favorite shows. I do not believe they would detract from commercial content (polite hint?).

And my recollection is, Dayton isn't Cincinnati - the citizens can handle 3" of snow without a huge amount of crepe-hanging. Maybe crying wolf a bit??

BTW I am getting WKEF reliably now - even with a splitter (added to feed a new Sony) so thanks to the leaves for falling / other efforts and intervention.

Jeff the dipole you pointed me to is working great - thanks for the tip.

JR in Wapak

Trip in VA

01-26-09, 08:25 PM

TOS will filmed in 4x3 I think. They've been doing a crop job on them but I think they're being distributed to stations in 4x3. (Good, IMHO)

- Trip

hall

01-26-09, 10:12 PM

And my recollection is, Dayton isn't Cincinnati - the citizens can handle 3" of snow without a huge amount of crepe-hanging. Maybe crying wolf a bit?? I don't think the "media" really wants us to be able to.... Even the radio DJs are into the hype, sadly.

bari_old_dad

01-27-09, 08:36 AM

I don't think the "media" really wants us to be able to.... Even the radio DJs are into the hype, sadly.

It really must be just a proven ratings-winner - more viewers tune in when "Winter Storm Warning!!" is streaming across the screens. Revenue-driven; understandable but annoying. I think I'd support subliminal messages that didn't detract from the broadcast - getting grumpy enough to where I'd rather be manipulated without being conscious of it.

Nitewatchman

01-27-09, 03:33 PM

TOS will filmed in 4x3 I think. They've been doing a crop job on them but I think they're being distributed to stations in 4x3. (Good, IMHO)

- Trip

Yes, TOS OAR is 4x3, I don't think you'd want to see what was "Filmed" outside the 4x3 safe area ...

I've heard there have been some transfers to HD done (4x3/OAR I think) -- There was a thread somewhere in Programming area about it a year or so ago ... But, I did not/do not know if they are distrubuting it HD (They are 4x3/OAR airings on WCPO+WDTN, As it should be, they aren't cropping it or doing P&S) .... It has looked awfully "HD-like" on WCPO the past couple of years they've been running it, and what I saw this past weekend on WDTN (Until then, the WDTN airings have "looked like" SD upconverts when I've checked it)... If it is SD upconvert though, it's a bit difficult to imagine and would be the best I've seen so far ....

bari_old_dad

01-27-09, 08:19 PM

Hello everyone, I live a few miles west of Lima and was wondering if anyone in the area can pick up a HD fox feed? Dayton would be best I think. I'm thinking about putting up a tower and a rotor, but would like to know if it's possible first.

Like by Agerter and Wapak? I am about 10-15 miles south - south of 33 - and I struggled to get WRGT Fox-45 (digital channel 30) until I switched to a Terrestrial Digital 91XG (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=TD-91XG); got better when I moved it from chimney (c. 30') to tower (c. 55+') - now it is one of the more reliable Dayton stations. WHIO and WDTN seemed to be weaker in the summer when the leaves were still on the trees. I am also using the CM7777 preamp which is widely seen as one of the best for the money.

Somewhere south of us is the St Lawrence / Mississippi divide but I think all these stations from 50+ miles are refracting through the atmosphere anyhow, so elevation may not mean much past the very localized surface stuff?? The smarter people here will set us straight . . .

For me VHF antenna capability has little value - WLIO, the only VHS station I get, comes through with no problem even when I'm aimed at Dayton, 150° to the south. You may have a good chance of pulling in Toledo stations - I think one of the networks up there - WTOL maybe? will stay VHF. Once I was able to get a lock and watched Fox on Toledo WUPW for an hour or so, but haven't gotten a lock since. You would have better luck than me - all other things equal - starting another 10 miles or more closer.

If you spend a bit on a good antenna and still don't get Dayton reliably, I would take heart that Ft Wayne Fox should show up eventually and should be better for you. I get all Ft Wayne stations down to the meagerly powered PBS station, better than Dayton. Currently they have some quality issues (few broadcasts are 5.1 audio, for example) that hopefully will go away. Soon I'll have all the Dayton affiliates through DirectTV so I may be pointed at Ft Wayne for OTA more often than not.

browerjs

01-29-09, 08:21 AM

FYI, Dayton Locals (minus PBS/CW) were uplinked yesterday on E*'s new Ciel II satellite. When they will actually go live, well that's anyone's guess. But for us E* customers we are one step closer...

Whodey_Beanie

01-31-09, 01:19 PM

Like by Agerter and Wapak? I am about 10-15 miles south - south of 33 - and I struggled to get WRGT Fox-45 (digital channel 30) until I switched to a Terrestrial Digital 91XG (http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=TD-91XG); got better when I moved it from chimney (c. 30') to tower (c. 55+') - now it is one of the more reliable Dayton stations. WHIO and WDTN seemed to be weaker in the summer when the leaves were still on the trees. I am also using the CM7777 preamp which is widely seen as one of the best for the money.

Somewhere south of us is the St Lawrence / Mississippi divide but I think all these stations from 50+ miles are refracting through the atmosphere anyhow, so elevation may not mean much past the very localized surface stuff?? The smarter people here will set us straight . . .

For me VHF antenna capability has little value - WLIO, the only VHS station I get, comes through with no problem even when I'm aimed at Dayton, 150° to the south. You may have a good chance of pulling in Toledo stations - I think one of the networks up there - WTOL maybe? will stay VHF. Once I was able to get a lock and watched Fox on Toledo WUPW for an hour or so, but haven't gotten a lock since. You would have better luck than me - all other things equal - starting another 10 miles or more closer.

If you spend a bit on a good antenna and still don't get Dayton reliably, I would take heart that Ft Wayne Fox should show up eventually and should be better for you. I get all Ft Wayne stations down to the meagerly powered PBS station, better than Dayton. Currently they have some quality issues (few broadcasts are 5.1 audio, for example) that hopefully will go away. Soon I'll have all the Dayton affiliates through DirectTV so I may be pointed at Ft Wayne for OTA more often than not.

That's pretty much my location. I'll see about getting an actual antenna tower when it warms up. Does anyone locally sell them? Currenty, my antenna is just mounted on the top of my roof. Thanks!

ohiogal

02-01-09, 10:10 PM

robmadden1

02-02-09, 01:02 PM

A email I got:

Dear Mr. Madden,

There is a possibility that WDTN and all other stations in the Dayton market may cease analog operations on February 17th but it is not for sure as of today.

Thank you for your inquiry.

Lisa Barhorst
VP & General Manager

Paul210

02-02-09, 03:39 PM

...There is a possibility that WDTN and all other stations in the Dayton market may cease analog operations on February 17th but it is not for sure as of today.

Thank you for your inquiry.

Lisa Barhorst
VP & General Manager

How insightful!

mr.freon

02-02-09, 06:12 PM

Nitewatchman

02-02-09, 07:33 PM

Thus far, WHIO, WKEF, WRGT in Dayton, WLIO in Lima have recently filed with FCC to shut down analog on Feb 17 even if analog shut off date is delayed.

WTLW Lima already shut down analog ...

No filings showing up for Cincinnati stations yet, but the List could(i'd guess will, probably) very well get bigger for the area ...

Trip's maintaining a list of stations FCC is listing analog station as "silent"/stations filing for "silent" status as of certian dates here :

http://www.rabbitears.info/termlist.php

Here is exhibit(PDF reader required for link) attached to WHIO's filing involved, which was dated 1/30 and just made it into to FCC database today :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/getattachment_exh.cgi?exhibit_id=725518

They also filed a DTR update, the update being they "wish to terminate analog service feb 17, 2009 ...

WKEF/WRGT's filings are similar, words like "abundance of caution" are used ...

I haven't read the "possible delayed shutdown" thread in HDTV technical area since Late last week, so I don't know if anything new has happened with the latest(passed by senate) delay bill in the House yet ...

bari_old_dad

02-02-09, 07:42 PM

i live near camden ohio and i turned my attenna so i can get all the dayton stations, well all is fine except for channel 22, which went from 77-90 great signal rate, to down between 27 and 43 percent signal. what the heck, i am picking up channel 6 out of columbus at 57 percent. this is stupid.

You look to be in a great location for both Dayton and Cincinnati.

Yes it is suddenly spotty (for me) as of this weekend here in the greater Wapakoneta area as well - I'm about 57 miles nearly due north. I thought my antenna had blown off of 180° but it was just weaker signal.

Something clobbering the stratosphere maybe? Or just "them"? During the superbowl I had to switch from 1080i WDTN to 720p WLIO (Lima NBC) when their broadcast began dropping frames (around halftime). I was getting a strange but persistent "pop" in one of the surround channels during Wheel o' Fortuna while tuned to WHIO tonight.

The ham radio guys and DX'ers who lurk here would probably know if there was an atmospheric explanation . . .

Nitewatchman

02-02-09, 07:48 PM

The ham radio guys and DX'ers who lurk here would probably know if there was an atmospheric explanation . . .

Yes, quite likely. See my post on it in Cincinnati Thread ...

Mentioned it there also, and hate to "cross post" -- but, As for WKEF and Ohiogal's situation -- WSFJ 51 analog Newark(On other side of columbus) and WKEF-DT 51(22.x remap) are co-channel, and in same direction from Camden ...

I've never actually had WSFJ cause "dropouts" to WKEF here(WKEF at 42 degrees, WFSJ at 78 degrees azimuth) - directivity of a big yagi helps with that I think, but I have actually "seen" WSFJ (barely) through WKEF-DT's "snow" ....

While DTV is actually pretty immune to CCI from NTSC analog station -- Not so much when a distant analog is just blasting in, or if the desired DTV signal is weak .... At the moment, I'm being lazy and I can't remember which one, but I think there is A Detroit area station on 50 (WKBD maybe?) which off the back side might have been involved for you regarding WDTN ..... Last night, the tropo scatter seemed enhanced in just about all directions here, although more "enhanced" in certian directions at certian times, and other directions at certian other times ....

This is just one of the reasons why it will be a good thing when analog is gone ...

jimp2244

02-04-09, 12:30 PM

Local TV station going ahead with digital switch

From the Dayton Daily News. Full article here: http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/02/04/ddn020409digitalweb.html?cxtype=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=16

DAYTON — Despite last-minute maneuvering by Congress, WHIO-TV still plans to cease analog broadcasts after Feb. 17 as previously announced.
"In order to broadcast our digital television signal to serve our entire viewing area, we must remove our analog transmitter and antenna from our tower and move our new permanent digital antenna into its place," said Harry Delaney, WHIO-TV vice president and general manager.

Nitewatchman

02-04-09, 12:55 PM

Add WDTN to the Dayton stations which have filed to shut down Feb 17 ...

They filed for it a little "differently" than WHIO/WRGT/WKEF , see here :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/sta_det.pl?Facility_id=65690

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/corrp_list.pl?Facility_id=65690

(PDF) - Notice of suspension of Operations :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101293066&formid=910&fac_num=65690

------------

Cool! sounds like I can pull out the channel 2/7 and 22 traps on my "DX" antenna setup on 2/17/09 at 11:59pm ;) ...

hall

02-04-09, 01:18 PM

I had seen that WHIO, WKEF, and WRGT had filed plans to shutdown on the 17th, but no WDTN... Then I checked 1-2 days later and there was WDTN.

As for WHIO talking about moving their digital transmitter, when can they do that ? Will they simply be off the air for a number of hours some day in the near future ?

hall

02-04-09, 01:21 PM

FYI, Dayton Locals (minus PBS/CW) were uplinked yesterday on E*'s new Ciel II satellite. When they will actually go live, well that's anyone's guess. But for us E* customers we are one step closer... SatelliteGuys is reporting that on today's "retailer chat" that Dayton locals are planned for launch on Feb 18th. They list cities going online on the 18th, 25th, and two later (unknown) dates in March. They are NOT wasting any time with this new satellite !

Nitewatchman

02-04-09, 01:27 PM

The WDTN filing has a date of 2/3/2009. (Yesterday).

Regarding WHIO, I believe They're talking about moving antenna for digital(UHF 41) to top of tower. Current top mounted antenna is for VHF 7.

Current antenna for WHIO digital (licensed facility, including for post-transition) is side mounted to tower, and has a significant null in its directional pattern, particularly towards the Southwest and towards Co-channel WDRB 41 (analog - It's digital is on 49), Louisville, KY - A station which of course will be gone after analog shut down, and WHIO will no longer need to protect ...

WHIO-DT filed a Maximimzation application over 6 months ago -- It's to move the antenna for digital to top of tower, and use a Non-directional antenna pattern(obviously a different antenna) ..... There is nothing I'm aware of that indicates FCC has approved that application as of yet ....

Trip in VA

02-04-09, 01:34 PM

There is nothing I'm aware of that indicates FCC has approved that application as of yet ....

A lot of stations were told their maximizations will be approved after February 17 so they can have a full three years to implement them. WHIO could be one of them.

- Trip

Nitewatchman

02-04-09, 01:54 PM

A lot of stations were told their maximizations will be approved after February 17 so they can have a full three years to implement them. WHIO could be one of them.

- Trip

I've heard that too, The same could be true for WBDT's maximization app ... I was just saying there's nothing I'm aware of that indicates it has (or will be) granted ...

dtv insider

02-04-09, 04:09 PM

Regarding WHIO move to the top of the tower antenna and transmission line is in storage in Dayton. The work is schedule for March. Changeover to the top mount antenna will be in the early a.m. so the normal viewer will not see the down time.

Nitewatchman

02-04-09, 04:40 PM

That indeed seems to indicate WHIO's maximization app will be approved .. And "effectively" as of some soon to come date likely "is" since it's highly unlikely they would purchase a new antenna/transmission line and schedule the work until after they knew the app would be approved ...

Hope they run into some good weather, and not some of what we ran into last March ...

robmadden1

02-04-09, 08:23 PM

WLWT 5 showed a new graphic tonight saying 14 days till transition.

Nitewatchman

02-05-09, 03:58 PM

Due to yesterday's passage of the 'DTV Delay act"(s. 352) FCC has posted public notice regarding New procedures for analog shut of on Feb 17, 2009, or between Feb 17 and Jun 12 (the "new" analog shut off date If the Pres signs the bill) ... Here it is :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-6A1.pdf

If I read that right, unless they'd file for, and be granted a STA of some sort, stations shutting down between feb 17 and Jun 12 would only be allowed to operate their current *pre-transition* facility before the "new" analog shut off date of June 12 ... In other words, Sounds like :

#1). WHIO would likely need "special permission" (which would only be allowed if it didn't cause intererence to other stations) to operate with the "top mounted" antenna they're planning on installing/start using in March ....

#2). WPTD or WBDT would also need "special permission" (STA) in order to operate on their new post-transition channels 16 and 26 respectively ...

Also, If I read other portions of the notice correctly, looks like WHIO, WDTN, WRGT, WKEF, WLIO and anyone else who wants to shut down analog feb 17 will have to file again with FCC, and update their DTR's(Form 387's) BEFORE Feb 9 ... Some of those recently filed updated 387's specifically regarding feb 17 analog shut off "in case" the date was delayed, but the way I read the public notice, they're going to have to do it again as well ...

Oh, also note WBDT and WPTD filed recently to reduce power on their analog stations as it pertains to transmitter modifications for digital/etc, although oddly enough this has resulted in WPTD and WBDT being indicated as "Licensed and Silent" on FCC site as of Jan 20 or 21 2009 Status date (of course they are in fact still on air) .... See here :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/sta_det.pl?Facility_id=25067

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/sta_det.pl?Facility_id=70138

With those "reduced power" filings from WPTD and WBDT also involving the Feb 17 "analog shut off" date, I'm hoping we might see filings for Feb 17 shutdown for all 6 Dayton Full service stations before feb 9 ... (update: Oops, forgot about WKOI)

Of course, In one portion of the Public notice from FCC Today, it says :

Consistent with our public interest responsibilities and Congress’ delay of the transition
to June 12 to give consumers additional time to prepare, the Commission reserves the right to limit or reconsider this partial waiver in the event that it determines that analog termination on February 17 by a station or group of stations is contrary to the public interest. In such event, the Commission will promptly notify the affected station or stations.10 The Commission may consider such action if, for example, we find that all or most of the stations in a market will terminate their analog service on February 17, and that the market is one in which many viewers are unprepared for the transition or at risk if the transition proceeds. In such case, we may require affected stations to submit additional information to explain and justify how their early termination advances the public interest. Such additional information can include significant economic, technical, contractual and other business reasons that support termination on February 17. The Commission will scrutinize such information closely in light of the important interests
at stake to determine whether a compelling case has been made.

mlbUC

02-06-09, 11:20 AM

Congress did nothing but delay the inevitable. I can't see a signifcant number of people who aren't prepared now being prepared in 4 months.

browerjs

02-06-09, 03:19 PM

Congress did nothing but delay the inevitable. I can't see a signifcant number of people who aren't prepared now being prepared in 4 months.

Agreed completely, may as well give people 4 more months to be lazy and not take care of what they've already known was coming for 3 1/2 years... before you know it the next thing the government will do will tell people how much money they can make... oh wait :D

dennispap

02-06-09, 03:42 PM

The White House wants your opinion on The DTV Delay ACT Bill
President Obama said he will not sign the DTV transaction act into law on Monday until he hears what the public has to say, you can comment here

http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing_room/dtv_delay_act/

Nitewatchman

02-06-09, 04:11 PM

ThinkTV is one of the first, if not the first to notify FCC of "early" analog shut off for Both WPTO and WPTD on Feb 17, 2009, using the new procedures described in Yesterday's FCC Public Notice regarding such procedures and passage by congress of DTV Delay act. The Pres has to actually sign it of course before transition is extented to Jun 12 and any of it actually means anything ....

Some Info on One of the WPTD filings involved is here (the one with the Feb 5 date) :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/corrp_list.pl?Facility_id=25067

Some Info on One of the WPTO filings involved is here :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/corrp_list.pl?Facility_id=25065

There are updated DTR's(digital transition reports), from WPTD/WPTO which were filed as is required by the new rules with a Status date of "today" as well ....

The updated DTR, and attached exhibit for WPTD seems to indicate they are still planning on commencing DTV operations on channel 16 at 00:01 AM Feb 18 .... However, I believe :

#1). "new procedures"(if the pres signs DTV delay act) from FCC indicate stations planning on operating post-transition facilities(such as on different channels) need to file for a STA (and have it be granted) in order to do that(which they apparently haven't done yet), as the new rules say that otherwise, they would only be authorized to operate their current *pre-transition* facility on Ch 58 ...

#2). Furthermore, The new procedures also say :

"a station with a post-transition construction permit containing a condition prohibiting use of the post-transition facility until February 18, 2009 will now be prohibited from using its post-transition facility until June 13, 2009, unless approved by the Commission, as permitted by the Third DTV Periodic Report and Order."

Well, guess what ? WPTD apparently has such a condition ... Here's link(PDF) to the Authorization for what I think is their current Post-transition CP - Note: I hope this link works, it MIGHT not the way FCC formats CP authorization documents on their website) :

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/cdbs/pubacc/Auth_Files/1249790.pdf

Condition 2 says :

Special operating conditions or restrictions:
2 This is to notify you that the grant of this construction permit is subject to the condition that this facility can not commence operation prior to midnight of February 17, 2009, or by such other date as the Commission may establish in the future, without prior approval from the Commission.

Hope they can get the STA and/or the necessary special permission for DTV on 16 it seems like they will need ...

Of course, what would be even better would be if the Pres gains some "wisdom" over the next few days doesn't sign the thing ... Otherwise ... What a mess ...

-----------

BTW, I just finished scouring FCC site for new Dayton+Cincinnati filings which meet the new "rules" for filing for Feb 17 shutdown, so far WPTO and WPTD are the only ones that seem to apply ...

The new rules say stations who are going to shut down "early"(such as on Feb 17) have until Monday, February 9, 2009 (11:59 p.m. EST) To file, refile, Notify or "renotify", otherwise they'll turn into a pumpkin or something I suppose if they shut down on Feb 17 and the Pres signs the DTV Delay act ;)

robmadden1

02-06-09, 06:33 PM

WHIO is still planning on dumping analog on Februuary 17. There was report on it on the 5:30pm news.

Their chief engineer, Chuck Eastman, was interviewed at the annual Dayton Home Show, where WHIO has a booth to answer questions about DTV.

It sure looks like Dayton's dominant station will be going digital later this month, and it's a fair guess the rest of Dayton will follow suit. They do have until Monday to file with the FCC to make it official, as robmadden1 pointed out.

robmadden1

02-07-09, 02:15 AM

Dayton & Ch 64 Pulling Plug On Analog

Dayton is pulling the plug on all analog signals, along with Cincinnati's WSTR-TV (Channel 64), in 10 days. Dayton's Channels 2, 7, 16, 22 and 45 -- which come in very strong into Butler and Warren counties, sometimes better than the Cincinnati stations -- will cease analog broadcasting at 11:59 p.m. on Feb. 17, the deadline set by Congress three years ago.

Cincinnati's five other stations -- Channels 5, 9, 12, 19 and 48 -- plus Oxford's Channel 14 (operated by Ch. 16) -- will continue broadcasting both analog and digital signals into spring.

After the House approved pushing back the digital deadline to June 12, Cincinnati station managers had looked into sticking with the Feb. 17 deadline. But the strict federal guidelines for switching this month to DTV convinced Cincinnati stations to keep broadcasting in both analog and digital for several months, says Bill Fee, Ch 9 VP & GM. Stations would say about $6,000 a month in electrical costs by turning off old analog transmitters.

Sinclair Broadcast Group, which owns Channel 64 and Dayton's Channels 22 and 45, had announced Tuesday its stations would adhere to the original Feb. 17 date. Dayton's WPDT-TV (Channel 16) and WHIO-TV (Channel 7) wanted to turn off analog this month to make technological improvements on their towers for DTV.

Some Cincinnati stations may drop analog before June 12, under Federal Communications Commission regulations released Thursday. Stations here could start turning off analog after May sweeps end May 20, Fee says.

The Dayton shut-off could be a significant test for the area. Where I live in Fairfield near Jungle Jim's, we get Dayton stations (both analog and digital) better than Cincinnati stations. In fact, Ch. 5 is the only digital station I get with rabbit ears and a converter box. So we'll see what happens, how many viewers are unprepared or disenfranchised when Dayton pulls the plug.

Do any of you rely on Dayton analog signals? Are you prepared for DTV?

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=PluckPersona&U=5c49394b12564ab6832411d82ad3a991&plckController=PersonaBlog&plckScript=personaScript&plckElementId=personaDest&plckPersonaPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a5c49394b12564ab6832411d82ad3a991Post%3a27e 80c84-6a5c-4c91-833d-a037659e766c&sid=sitelife.cincinnati.com

The info for 14 WPTO is not correct. Look at thier updated aplication.

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=101294009&formid=387&fac_num=25065

In big letters at the bottom of the aplication it says:

THE PURPOSE OF THIS UPDATE IS TO NOTIFY THE COMMISSION THAT WPTO WILL TERMINATE ITS ANALOG TELEVISION SERVICE AT MIDNIGHT ON FEBRUARY 17, 2009.

Aplication list:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/app_list.pl?Facility_id=25065

You can see from the list they filed yesturday February 6th.

ohiogal

02-08-09, 06:59 AM

i am pretty greatful now that i got our outdoor attenna to where i want it so i can watch my dayton stations after feb 17th.

BKell

02-08-09, 05:36 PM

http://www.satelliteguys.us/dish-network-forum/163749-satelliteguys-live-recap-dish-retailer-chat-2-4-09-a.html

In this recap of the Dish Network Retailer Chat, it is reported that Dayton, OH locals in HD will be coming on February 18th. No word on if that includes all (2, 7, 16, 22, 26, 45) or some subset of them.

hyghwayman

02-09-09, 12:00 PM

Dayton & Ch 64 Pulling Plug On Analog

Do any of you rely on Dayton analog signals? Are you prepared for DTV?

Yes, I'm ready.

I live in Miamisburg, Oh., after we moved in 2004 our OTA signal went south. We live in a garden double 1/2 under ground, plus we're behind hills to Dayton antenna farm. I was only able to get 2 channels clear enough to watch.

In 2005 we replaced our aging Annalog CRT TV with a new Digital CRT. I was blown away with the picture when it could be locked onto,(Wife got so pissed:mad: every time the signal was lost, if I didn't fix my reception issue I think she would have killed me:eek:.) I mean it was like watching a DVD compared to watching annalog snow. But wife kept turning to the snowy annalog signal even though the PQ was a 1,000,000 x worse.

So I searched the web and found a forum site talking about building antennas, seemed easy enough. My 1st build (antenna) was a major improvement, signal went from 40's to 80's even inside, behind TV.
I made a 2nd antenna that I put outside on an old antenna mast, 5' above roof. I now have a solid signal 98 out of 100 even with a splitter in the mix.
http://bfngrg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pe5O9qY5i5ImvQN4njvVyfXwgiH971ntGV28gtIp9yIW_NaWftGRN6q7sH tyiZ3kOz8A_g2G0u8U/My%201st%20Antenna.JPG 1st build http://bfngrg.blu.livefilestore.com/y1p_vgln9WDDRdVYNkIePJx_A9uB2LRwMWcW5GnEJ4nenMgzbQv4JlRzvbeY Ih2aSaBgElUHjQV61s/Build%20of%20my%202nd%20antenna.JPG 2nd and final build.

I now get channels 2, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12, 14, 16, 19, 22, 26, 33, 43, 45, 48, 64 and all of their sub channels.
Give us our full power DTV.

hyghwayman

hall

02-09-09, 01:25 PM

In this recap of the Dish Network Retailer Chat, it is reported that Dayton, OH locals in HD will be coming on February 18th. No word on if that includes all (2, 7, 16, 22, 26, 45) or some subset of them. I beat you by a few days already.... :D

Here's what's currently uplinked (but not available to regular subscribers):

5250(22) - WKEF [MPEG4 HD] added to Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam ?? (NA)(Dayton, OH)
5251(7) - WHIO [MPEG4 HD] added to Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam ?? (NA)(Dayton, OH)
5252(2) - WDTN [MPEG4 HD] added to Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam ?? (NA)(Dayton, OH)
5253(45) - WRGT [MPEG4 HD] added to Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam ?? (NA)(Dayton, OH) No PBS listed there.

mlbUC

02-09-09, 01:45 PM

Or CW (channel 26).

rmondo

02-11-09, 02:20 PM

I'm from Richmond, IN. Due to the outrageous prices of our New Cable Overlords (Comcast, which bought out Insight, and totally screwed up the transition, double billed lots of people, and almost daily complaints on the Palladium Item local newspaper editorial page), we cancelled our service and went to OTA. I bought a Zenith converter box, and have moved it to another room, and bought a Sony Bravia 32L4000 just recently. I'm mentioning this, because I have mixed results.

First, I also have a digital tuner usb card (Pinnacle) and tested signals on my laptop. Rabbit ears here are completely useless. Channel 7 was the best, but it only worked when I sat outside. So, we bought a roof mast and an antenna from Radio Shack. After Septembers wind storms, my antenna was trashed because it actually snapped the steel bands! Besides, the signal wasn't very great.

So, we bought a used tower and slightly more expensive antenna from Lowes. The signal is much better now. My Zenith works great, even getting WKEF 22.1, though it was often pixellated in all but perfect conditions. My Sony won't even tune it.

I have a motor, and I've found the sweet spot between Dayton and Cincinnati. But, as you'll see, I don't benefit digitally from Cincinnati at all. I'm also in the sweet spot for my weaker Dayton channels, so there is no point in moving it anymore, cause I already tried.

Here's my current analog channels: 2 (good), 5 (fair), 7 (good), 9 (fair), 12 (fair), 13 (poor, out of Indy and almost 180 degrees in the wrong direction, VERY weak signal, even lapses into black and white), 16 (good), 22 (good), 26 (good), 43 (fair), 45 (fair).

Here's my current digital channels: 2.1 (HD, great), 2.2 (SD, great), 7.1 (HD, great), 7.2 (SD, great), 26.1 (HD, great), 43.1-43.5 (5 chans, SD, great), 45.1 (HD, great), 45.2 (SD, great)

Here's the goofy one: 22.1

It comes in on the Zenith box, not on the Sony, but even on the Zenith, it'll drop like a fly if a bird sneezes. It's frustrating since the analog comes in so good. I've read on other forums that their broadcast engineer is a bit of a jerk. A tech called up the station after finding out they only broadcast at 138 kW (2 and 7 broadcast at 1000, by comparison), and asked if they were ever going to boost power, and they basically said, "Not now, not ever!"

I'm disappointed most about PBS. On cable, I got 14 and 16. And when I went antenna, I was down to 16. But when they switch, it looks like I'll be down to none.

But, I am pleased by two things, which I want to pass along. Now is a great time if you are looking to suppliment OTA with internet services, like Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu. We have several computers, so I was able to go to get a PC VGA cord and hook one up straight to the Sony at full 1368 x 768 resolution, with DSL connectivity. (I have a Wii, and unfortunately all boxes are handicapped with only Flash 7, so no good media, though I can get streaming audio service from FineTune ( finetune.com/wii/ .))

With a wireless keyboard/mouse, and also using my USB tuner, I can watch everything on Hulu (not bad, but their HD selection is pretty non-existant), and we subscribe to Netflix. So, when there's nothing on, I can watch dvd quality tv and movies still. I hear Amazon has a pretty impressive selection, too. With the USB tuner, the computer also works as a DVR (with full HD).

If I didn't have the computer hookup, I (and my wife) would go nuts with so few digital channels. I wish 22 would go full power, as well as Cincinnati/Oxford channels. That's the huge disappointment. And before you ask, yes, Richmond sits in a valley. But I don't live "down in the town", and don't suffer much from that. I don't exactly have line of sight, but very very close. If all these channels would crank up to full power digital, we'd probably have more channels on OTA than I'd ever be willing to pay for on cable.

And, I want to give three channels major kudos. While everyone else is going the lazy route of x.1 HD and x.2 SD, Channel 7 made their 7.2 a 24 hour weather channel (usually, though I've caught alternate programming during daytime hours). Also, 45.1 is HD, but the 45.2 SD is called "This" a movie channel, though that's not 24 hours (late late is all paid programming, and they throw in prime time local news while 45.1 shows other programming).

The last one is WKOI (TBN). While I know many of you are not into evangelical Christian programming, I must say they have done a fantastic job on how they provide variety. They have 5 SD channels. 43.1 is their main, 43.2 is a 43.1 clone, but with all different programming... take a hint major networks, if you schedule popular and syndicated programming on a second channel, you can pump up ratings (cause not everyone has Tivo, and they never get to see shows like Heroes). Third, 43.3 is a youth/music channel, which quite honestly puts the likes of MTV and VH1 to shame because they actually play music videos! Fourth, and this is brilliant, 43.4 is their Spanish channel. I expect major networks to see the opportunity here. And last, 43.5 is children's programming. As a parent, since PBS will be dying on my, this is the channel I feel safe leaving on when I'm out of the room. I don't want my kids singing about "seeking Amy" from programming that sneaks past parental ears ( rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2009/01/22/britney-spears-racy-if-u-seek-amy-hits-the-radio-angers-parents/ )... yeah, I didn't catch it at first either.

Anyways, I hope my post gives Richmond readers some ideas, tips, and info on what they can expect.

jimp2244

02-11-09, 02:56 PM

Here's the goofy one: 22.1

It comes in on the Zenith box, not on the Sony, but even on the Zenith, it'll drop like a fly if a bird sneezes. It's frustrating since the analog comes in so good. I've read on other forums that their broadcast engineer is a bit of a jerk. A tech called up the station after finding out they only broadcast at 138 kW (2 and 7 broadcast at 1000, by comparison), and asked if they were ever going to boost power, and they basically said, "Not now, not ever!"The Zenith box has one of the best tuner chips out there, so is very good at pulling in weaker signals, as well as filtering out interference, including that caused by multi-path (ghosts on analog channels).

I'm disappointed most about PBS. On cable, I got 14 and 16. And when I went antenna, I was down to 16. But when they switch, it looks like I'll be down to none.I'm in Cincinnati, so the situation is a bit different, but I get digital signals perfecly fine for WPTO-DT (14-1 through 14-6), WPTD-DT (16-1 through 16-6), WCET-DT (48-1 and 48-2), and WCVN-DT (54-2 through 54-6).

I wish 22 would go full power, as well as Cincinnati/Oxford channels. That's the huge disappointment. And before you ask, yes, Richmond sits in a valley. But I don't live "down in the town", and don't suffer much from that. I don't exactly have line of sight, but very very close. If all these channels would crank up to full power digital, we'd probably have more channels on OTA than I'd ever be willing to pay for on cable.All of these stations are "full power," however as you say, WKEF-DT (22-1) is using slightly less power than the others. I believe I recall someone representing WKEF ownership at one point saying something like why should they "waste" money on a broadcast that "no one is watching." Can't say I agree with that a bit. However, I have no trouble receiving WKEF-DT or any of the Dayton stations for that matter from a bit north of Cincinnati (Sharonville).

And, I want to give three channels major kudos. While everyone else is going the lazy route of x.1 HD and x.2 SDIf you mean simulcasting the same content on the -2 channel in SD, only WDTN-DT (2-1 and 2-2) and WBDT-DT (26-1 and 26-2) are doing this. No stations in Cincinnati do this -- they either have separate content or dedicate all of the bandwidth to their primary (HD) channel.

Anyways, I hope my post gives Richmond readers some ideas, tips, and info on what they can expect.Welcome to the forum and thank you for posting your insight. Also , I'm sure that with the help of others on this forum you could improve your digital reception situation so feel free to ask.

Nitewatchman

02-11-09, 03:02 PM

rmondo,

Adding a preamp might do wonders in your situation. Also, I know you said you "tried it", however keep in mind Generally speaking, Aiming directional antenna "Towards Dayton" for Reception of Dayton stations, "Towards Cincinnati" for cincinnati reception usually should work best in situations such as yours, including regarding minimizing or eliminating "dropouts" from specific stations... There can be exceptions though, such as if you are aiming through a bunch of trees ....

What antenna from Lowe's are you using? (make/model/etc) ... As You might also need something with more gain for best results from Cincinnati (and any shot at Indy orWNDY), and possibly a antenna with better directivity may improve your issues with WKEF as well. Keep in mind, all the Dayton digital stations transmit on UHF, and will remain on UHF post-transition. Cincinnati, however has 1 digital station on VHF currently (WCPO-DT on 10), and will have 2 post-transition (WCPO+WKRC) ... At this point, it looks like WKRC-DT won't move from 31 to VHF 12 until after June 12, however. Indy will also has a VHF DTV station(WISH), and will have 2 Post-transition(WISH and WTHR.)

WPTD-DT (DT = Digital) currently transmits on 58. Post-transition, WPTD-DT will transmit on 16, where their analog station is now.

Given the new situation with DTV delay act, however, they need "special permission" from FCC to move the digital to 16 before June 12(assuming Obama doesn't veto the bill). WPTD has just filed with FCC for a STA (special authority) to begin digital operations on 16 at 00:01 on Feb 18 ...

That might help you out with them, as #1). there is more loss in your coax run from antenna the higher the frequency - a mast mount preamp can do wonders here, this might help your situation with WKEF as well(although it won't "fix" multipath) --- #2) Many VHF/UHF combo antennas, don't perform as well on upper UHF channels as they do on lower frequencies in UHF band, and #3). Signals on higher frequencies suffer more from Terrain losses/obstructions, and may in certian cases may be more easily "disrupted" by certian issues.

WKEF-DT(51) and WDTN-DT (50) are also on higher UHF channels, and will remain there post-transition ....

Also note that although WPTO 14 analog transmits from Oxford, WPTO-DT(digital) 28 actually transmits from WXIX tower, Cincinnati.

I'm sure you know this, but in case not --- Keep in mind The channel "numbers" you see for digital stations (such as 2.1,2.2) are "virtual" channel numbers, not the actual channel used for the digital transmission. They do this so viewers can "channel surf" to the channel numbers they are used to, but your receiver can't use that information until a signal sufficent to decode and "scan in" the virtual channel information is acheived from each station, individually ...

Oh, -- You might also want to see what you get from WIPB Muncie, IN (PBS) .... I think They're kinda "in flux" now, so to speak regarding the transition, but I believe their digital station currently operates on 52 (analog on 49) and they will move to channel 23 Post transition ... they have filed with FCC to shut down analog on Feb 17, but I don't know yet when, exactly they'll be moving the digital to 23 and increasing power ...

Hope some of that helps,

BTW, The info you heard concerning WKEF personel is incorrect .... I've talked to their engineers, as well as other folks at Sinclair on a number of occasions, and they are fine folks ...

Update: Oh, concerning being down "in a valley" -- Terrain obstruction issues can result in signifcant attenuation of signals, especially regarding higher UHF channels and more distant stations ...... Add in a lot of trees/etc, wind blowing tree limbs around/etc/etc, and multipath (as Jimp2244 mentioned), or your receiver's AGC (automatic gain control) circuit keeping up with the "changes" can be quite an issue as well ...

Nitewatchman

02-11-09, 03:12 PM

All of these stations are "full power," however as you say, WKEF-DT (22-1) is using slightly less power than the others.

WKEF-DT is at 138KW ERP, Non-directional antenna pattern. That's their *full power* allocation from FCC. Stations aren't allways allowed to run the maximum power levels FCC allows(such as on UHF - 1000KW ERP only about 8dB more than 138KW ERP) in any case, because of issues such as interference to portions of other co or adjacent channel stations service areas.

Compare 138KW ERP to WPTD-DT's maximized, post-transition "full power" permit from FCC of 155KW ERP ... A small fraction of a dB difference ... In other words, not even worth mentioning ....

WBDT-DT (CW Dayton) is 35KW ERP, currently directional antenna pattern. For the nulls in their pattern, it's as little as 1.5KW ERP (1500 watts), such as towards the south.

WHIO-DT and WRGT-DT also use directional antenna patterns, such that in some directions, it's less power than WKEF or WRGT digitals. The main "lobe" for these directional patterns is towards Springfield ....

Each doubling of power is only about a 3dB increase. With DTV, issues such as multipath uncorrectable by receiver are often more of an issue than "power" the station is running .....

There's also the issue of WDTN and WKEF being on 1st adjacent channels ... Since they are "almost" co-located, and running somwhat similar power levels(only about 8db difference)and both with non-directional patterns --- While this shouldn't be a problem, It does probably make it more important that neither station have issues with their emission masks, and that all receivers perform to "expected" specs for the FCC's DTV planning factors for reception ... Hopefully all DTV receivers out there would be able to handle this particular situation , but do note Other than for the CECB's per some of the ATSC A74 recommended practices for receivers, there are no required performance standards for DTV receivers ....

I particularly wonder about some receivers performance in these circumstances involve selectivity and the AGC circuit keeping up with changes in fading due to issues such as wind blowing tree limbs around ...

ChiefIllinifan

02-11-09, 05:26 PM

TW in Dayton made cosmetic changes to Navigator overnight. The new Guide and Listings screens have new colors and fonts. Looks much better than the old version, but it is still Navigator.

koach

02-11-09, 06:31 PM

TW in Dayton made cosmetic changes to Navigator overnight. The new Guide and Listings screens have new colors and fonts. Looks much better than the old version, but it is still Navigator.

One of my DVRs got this change about a month ago. Strangely, my other one did not. both are 8300 HD DVRs. The one that did not get the change also has lost the ability to sort the preference of season pass shows, so whatever was added last gets highest preference.

I really hate these DVRs. They were bad before, but this new software is 1000% worse. I would ditch them but most of what my son watches on TV is on demand, so I'm pretty much stuck.

dtv insider

02-11-09, 09:24 PM

[QUOTE=rmondo;15796327]I
Here's my current analog channels: 2 (good), 5 (fair), 7 (good), 9 (fair), 12 (fair), 13 (poor, out of Indy and almost 180 degrees in the wrong direction, VERY weak signal, even lapses into black and white), 16 (good), 22 (good), 26 (good), 43 (fair), 45 (fair).

Here's my current digital channels: 2.1 (HD, great), 2.2 (SD, great), 7.1 (HD, great), 7.2 (SD, great), 26.1 (HD, great), 43.1-43.5 (5 chans, SD, great), 45.1 (HD, great), 45.2 (SD, great)

You what to check any splitters that are in your system. It sounds like the high end of uhf band is rolled off. (analog 43 and 45 fair and digital 22 (51) and 16 (58) cannot pick up). 51 and 58 are the channels that 22 and 16 broadcast the DT signals.

Called the engineers at WPTD/WPTO the end of next week if you still have troubles and they can help. The engineers at the PBS station are very helpful .

Nitewatchman

02-11-09, 09:48 PM

[/quote] will close a quote ..

rmondo,

In addition to DTV insider's excellent advice and what I posted earlier ... Also, make sure you've got good connections, and that any outdoor coax connections are waterproof ... If you get water in the coax, as time goes on and the dielectric deterioriates, it will result in high signal loss, especially in upper UHF band ...

robmadden1

02-12-09, 12:48 AM

THE FCC HAS SPOKEN: In part ...

In contrast to the stations remaining on the air and those that have previously terminated analog service or complied with the Third DTV Periodic Report and Order procedures to terminate analog service before February 17th, we have identified 123 stations of the 491 intending to terminate analog service on February 17th whose early termination poses a significant risk of substantial public harm.
. . .
Accordingly, we hereby reconsider the partial waiver granted by the February 5th Public Notice to those stations listed on the Appendix attached to this Public Notice. These stations are, therefore, not permitted to terminate their analog service on February 17th, unless they comply with the conditions and procedures described below.
. . .
Stations listed in the Appendix to this Public Notice may obtain reinstatement of the waiver necessary for them to terminate analog service on February 17, 2009 by certifying to the Commission, not later than the close of business (6:00 pm EST) on Friday, February 13th, that they will individually undertake the measures specified herein as a means of ameliorating the public interest harms that the termination of their analog service would engender. We also encourage stations in the markets listed in the Appendix to cooperate and undertake the actions on a joint basis. Each station should certify in response to this Public Notice its compliance with the following eight measures. These certifications will reflect that the station is undertaking the action individually or that they have confirmed that another station will do so.

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-7A1.pdf
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-7A2.pdf

hall

02-12-09, 09:39 AM

Based on the FCC's own maps, only the CW's station will lose viewers. Is this a case of not enough residents in this DMA are "ready" or is it because all four of the major networks were planning to shut-off ?

To be honest, I don't care about this issue anymore.... I've been ready for 3+ years. Others have been ready longer than that.

Does this information belong in this thread after all ? This thread is effectively about our local station's digital broadcasts and nothing in that regard is changing.

browerjs

02-12-09, 10:26 AM

Does this information belong in this thread after all ? This thread is effectively about our local station's digital broadcasts and nothing in that regard is changing.

Agreed completely...

However, I did find it funny how WHIO's James Brown and one of their engineers, on the news last night, gave a free DTV converter box and hooked it up to some old woman's 30+ year old 3" black and white TV...

Nitewatchman

02-12-09, 02:24 PM

Does this information belong in this thread after all ?

Do you mean the posts with all the plagerized comments(I do see some of those have been "edited out" from the most recent post, however I even found one of my posts from this thread posted WORD FOR WORD by the same fellow apparently on a Cincy enquirer's TV reporter Blog) and cross posts in other threads of the same info , or do you mean the info which involves the analog shut off issue, the ridiculous situation with the "Delay" of the nationwide date to June 12 and it's effects, including the latest BS which effects four of the Dayton stations, as well as the effects involved on digital broadcasts?

This thread is effectively about our local station's digital broadcasts and nothing in that regard is changing.

There are several changes involved for the digital broadcasts for Dayton stations.

The biggest ones are :

WHIO - No longer a need for a big null to the SW once WDRB 41 analog Lousiville shuts down. -- Moving antenna to top of Tower.

WBDT- Moving digital broadcast from 18 to 26, after analog shuts down. If FCC has "approved"(which they may or may not have "unofficially" or when they do), their application to maximize power, a EXTREME power increase would result.

WPTD - Moving Digital broadcast from 58 to 16, including involving top mounted antenna currently used for analog 16. They've already filed for a STA to do this on Feb 18, given the new FCC rules for the DTV Delay, which say they need an STA/special approval to move the digital to 16 before the "new" transition date of June 12 ...

---------

And, there's also a bigger issue -- when the analogs are gone, the stations/station personnel will no longer have to put any "work" (or $$$) into those --- Instead, the DIGITAL station will be what is important ... Something some of us have been looking forward to for a LONG time now ....

hall

02-12-09, 05:00 PM

There are several changes involved for the digital broadcasts for Dayton stations.

The biggest ones are :

WHIO - No longer a need for a big null to the SW (snip)
WBDT- Moving digital broadcast from 18 to 26 (snip)
WPTD - Moving Digital broadcast from 58 to 16, including involving top mounted antenna currently used for analog 16. (snip) I guess I wonder how many people really "care" about that sort of detail. I understand you (probably) do and that's fine. I just think this thread is more for the "viewer" aspect of the local stations, not the behind-the-scenes, nitty-gritty aspect of how things operate.

Maybe it's just me though.... If so, carry on :D

Nitewatchman

02-12-09, 05:27 PM

I guess I wonder how many people really "care" about that sort of detail. I understand you (probably) do and that's fine.

Details like knowing you'll have to "rescan" your channels after WPTD moves their digital to channel 16?

Perhaps you would find it benefical to browse through the local info threads of some other DMA's besides this one and see what sort of "details" folks besides me are discussing and are interested in .....

jimp2244

02-12-09, 07:19 PM

I guess I wonder how many people really "care" about that sort of detail.
I certainly care... For one thing, the changes at WBDT will mean that many more people in the Cincinnati area will gain access to the CW in HD.

Take a look in the Lexington, KY thread and you'll see a huge discussion on the moving of WDKY-DT moving from lo-VHF channel 4 to UHF channel 41. There are many people in that region who have all sorts of problems with the channel 4 digital broadcast because of the high susceptibility to interference (blender, microwave, lightning...)

skylab

02-12-09, 07:26 PM

I think the information posted here is good to know. It certainly falls within the topic of this forum -- local HDTV info and reception.

Every once in awhile, I get some dropouts on WCPO-DT (9.1 or ch 10). Not all the time, but some days. I speculate whether I am getting some interference from the back end of the antenna from WBNS-TV (ch 10) from Columbus, which I can get if I turn my antenna in that direction. Personally, I was looking forward to a smooth transition to hopefully eliminate this problem when WBNS shuts off analog. Somehow though, I don't think that is it.

mlbUC

02-12-09, 09:35 PM

Well... so much for the conversion. The FCC has stopped the Dayton stations from doing it. I hope they file suit for the cost to delay the transition.

Nitewatchman

02-12-09, 09:47 PM

Says who? WHIO currently running a crawl saying they're going to shut down analog feb 17 ....

Anyhow, I'm certianly looking forward to when it's all over with, which of course was SUPPOSED to be Feb 17 everywhere ....

That being said, I'm surprised more folks don't seem to be interested in this, here, given the Dayton stations'(except WKOI) plans to shut down on Feb 17, regardless of the nationwide delay to June 12 for analog shut off ...

IMO, and I suspect of many others here -- I think the Dayton stations are doing the RIGHT thing by doing their best to stick to their plans to shut off analog on Feb 17 ... Also, Regardless of whether you might think it's right or wrong, I think they deserve a LOT of credit for that, especially given some of the ridiculous stuff that is being foisted upon them ....

Anyway --- As for current situation ... For Dayton, for those who haven't been following the news -- Basically without going into a lot of DETAIL --- WDTN, WHIO, WKEF, WRGT (according to FCC at least) have to go through some more "hurdles" with FCC, and meet some specific requirements in order for FCC to "allow them" to shut down Feb 17 -- FCC says they have to file(certify they will do those things, or exhibit a showing of financial hardship which says why they can't change their Feb 17 shutdown/why they need to shut down feb 17/etc) with them regarding that by 6pm EST tomorrrow .....

And, Feb 17 won't necessarily mean "shutting off" the analog transmitter, because all 4 of those stations have said they'll provide nightlight service (DTV info on their analog - NOT regular programming) to some extent past Feb 17, and at least ONE dayton station, among other things, will be required per new FCC requirements("hurdles") to provide an "extended" nightline service, for at least 60 days past their shut off, and involving Local news and public affiars programming ....

WBDT and WPTD however, Have (the way I understand it anyway) already been granted the OK to shut down analog Feb 17, and they won't be nightlighting ....

Furthermore, WPTD has just been granted permission (STA) by FCC to use 16 for DTV beginning Feb 17 ... The filing seems to specify the same power/etc. as their "full power" post-transition construction permit. And, FCC granted that STA FAST, unbelievably fast .... I think they plan on firing up DTV on 16 at 00:01 feb 18, according to exhibit attahced to their latest DTR (form 387) update ...

I do know around noon, I was flipping around the dial for the Dayton stations, and saw Info from WHIO, WKEF, WBDT, WRGT that indicated they would shut down Feb 17. I haven't happened to catch what they're saying on WDTN, lately, nor could I find anything on their website, but I didn't look for it too much.

WHIO also just did a DTV "show" at 7~8pm, and from what I caught of it(and the crawl on 9:38pm), they're still saying they're going to shut down Feb 17.

This info from ThinkTV's DTV page [url=http://www.thinktv.org/digitaltv.html] HERE currently also confirms the info about the channel 16 operation, and indicates WPTD will shut down analog, and begin digital on Feb 17 :

On February 4, 2009 Congress voted to postpone the digital television transition to June 12, 2009.

ThinkTV16/WPTD has requested and been granted permission to transition its analog over-the-air channel to digital February 17, 2009.

Plans are underway to transition ThinkTV14/WPTO’s over-the-air analog channel in the near future.

Note: apparently, the situation with WPTO has changed from that I mentioned earlier in this thread, and they've submitted a new filing to FCC -- See Cincy thread for a little more info.

For more *details* on recent FCC activity and how it involves WDTN, WHIO, WKEF and WRGT Feb 17 analog shut off plans, also see the DTV allotment thread in this forum area (local reception) .....

Oh, Perhaps DTV Insider has some info, but I think one other thing we don't know yet is if WBDT is going to file for STA to use 26 on Feb 17/18, or stay on 18 for now/until after June 12 ..... I haven't seen a filing for them on FCC site, yet ....

mlbUC

02-12-09, 09:48 PM

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/02/12/ddn021209digitaltvweb.html

The Federal Communications Commission has ordered 123 TV broadcast stations, including Dayton's major network channels, to cease their planned Feb. 17 early switch to digital signals.

The stations were previously granted permission. They must stop the transition until further notice, the FCC announced Thursday, Feb. 12.

"We have identified 123 stations of the 491 intending to terminate analog service on Feb. 17 whose early termination poses a significant risk of substantial public harm," the commission said. The stations are in 29 states. Recent legislation has set a new date of transition for June 12.

The Dayton stations include WKEF, an ABC affiliate; WHIO, a CBS affiliate; WRGT a FOX affiliate and WDTN, an NBC affiliate.

On Wednesday, President Obama signed a bill delaying the transition.

"Millions of Americans, including those in our most vulnerable communities, would have been left in the dark if the conversion had gone on as planned, and this solution is an important step forward as we work to get the nation ready for digital TV," Obama said.

Nitewatchman

02-12-09, 10:02 PM

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/02/12/ddn021209digitaltvweb.html

Don't believe everything you read. Straight from the Horse's mouth(FCC "headlines" on their main page) This is what that is about :

2/11/08
FCC Requires Public Interest Conditions for Certain Analog TV Terminations on February 17, 2009. Certain Stations Must Respond By Friday, February 13, 2009.

For the real story, start here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15800829#post15800829

Or, I think I summarized it pretty well in my last post, when I said :

Anyway --- As for current situation ... For Dayton, for those who haven't been following the news -- Basically without going into a lot of DETAIL --- WDTN, WHIO, WKEF, WRGT (according to FCC at least) have to go through some more "hurdles" with FCC, and meet some specific requirements in order for FCC to "allow them" to shut down Feb 17 -- FCC says they have to file(certify they will do those things, or exhibit a showing of financial hardship which says why they can't change their feb 17 shutdown plans/why they need to shut down feb 17/etc) with them regarding that by 6pm EST tomorrrow .....

As for the specifics of what those hurdles are -- See the FCC notice or my "lowlights" post quoting portions of the FCC notice involved in the thread at link above, here's the link to that specific "lowlight" post :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=15800974#post15800974

Update: now, We don't know yet what's going to happen regarding this latest nonsense and WDTN, WHIO, WKEF, WRGT ....

Hopefully, they'll be able to get through these latest "hurdles" ( BS is a better word for it really, IMO ... )

mlbUC

02-12-09, 10:04 PM

Even if you go by your summary, I can't see them allowing all of the big 4 stations to shut down. Just won't happen.

ohiogal

02-12-09, 10:06 PM

i just put on my parents converter boxes today what should i do take them off?
those who are ready for the transition are going to suffer at the hands of those who are not.

mlbUC

02-12-09, 10:07 PM

No need to take them off. Even if they delay the transition they'll still be running the digital signals. Your parents can get used to it now.

Nitewatchman

02-12-09, 10:17 PM

Even if you go by your summary, I can't see them allowing all of the big 4 stations to shut down. Just won't happen.

They will if those stations certify to FCC by 6pm tomorrow that they will do what is specified in the notice ...

That includes, among other things ONE station in the market providing enhanced nightlight service for 60 days, which specifically includes DTV information, as well as local/Public affairs programming, and can include some advertising ....

That one station could probably, in theory be WKOI, but that's very, very unlikely ...

If they only did the enhanced nightlighting on one station, WDTN would probably be the best choice for that, if the stations could cooperate on the issue...

WDTN, WHIO, WKEF, WRGT told FCC they were going to provide nightlight service, but not necessarily for 60 days ... WHIO has said they would only nightlight to end of February, as they have plans to remove antenna for analog 7 from top of tower in March, and install permanent top mounted antenna for digital 41.

Nitewatchman

02-12-09, 11:13 PM

WKEF just announced on 11pm News they are going to keep analog up until June 12 ...

Update : Crawl on WRGT I caught during 12AM repeat of 10pm News indicates they're going to keep analog up until June 12 as well ...

BKell

02-13-09, 12:45 AM

I beat you by a few days already.... :D

Here's what's currently uplinked (but not available to regular subscribers):

5250(22) - WKEF [MPEG4 HD] added to Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam ?? (NA)(Dayton, OH)
5251(7) - WHIO [MPEG4 HD] added to Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam ?? (NA)(Dayton, OH)
5252(2) - WDTN [MPEG4 HD] added to Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam ?? (NA)(Dayton, OH)
5253(45) - WRGT [MPEG4 HD] added to Ciel-2 129W TP 03 Spotbeam ?? (NA)(Dayton, OH) No PBS listed there.

Apologies. I skimmed through and I didn't see your post buried in all the digital transition talk. Good to see all the big 4 up. I'm not too concerned about PBS or the CW.

ohiogal

02-13-09, 07:08 AM

at least i got the converter box on the oldest of the tvs. i wonder if obama realizes that there are more people ready than he thinks. he only listens to the people who are not ready.

browerjs

02-13-09, 08:47 AM

at least i got the converter box on the oldest of the tvs. i wonder if obama realizes that there are more people ready than he thinks. he only listens to the people who are not ready.

Actually there are probably a huge number of people who aren't ready, but IMO it's ridiculous to think that these people will be ready at a later date. They aren't going to get their coupons with the extra time, and then they'll b*tch about it later when they actually shutdown analog nationwide and have to pay out of their pocket. People have had PLENTY of time to aquire the information needed to make the transition and make that transition for little or no cost. The stations (in our area at least) have done a great job at making sure people know what they need to do, but the government wants to tell the lazy that they can go ahead and be lazy for 3 or 4 months at the cost to the stations that have done everything in their power to let their viewers know what they need to do.

hall

02-13-09, 09:01 AM

i just put on my parents converter boxes today what should i do take them off? I have to ask, but why do you ask that ? I'm honestly curious... I hope that's not how a lot are thinking about this, that is, that they can't continue to use their set-tops today. Do some think that the digital channels aren't up 24/7 and won't be until the actual shut-off ?

pjpjpjpj

02-13-09, 09:19 AM

Strange occurrence (apologies if this is old news and I missed it, please point me there if so) :

I get digital-only (ATSC) OTA reception via HD Homerun tuners, and use SageTV for recording/HTPC purposes. I receive WKOI and subchannels, 43.x, just fine. It remaps from 39.x as it should.

However, last night, scrolling through my EPG, there were new channels. This was especially strange because I thought I had turned off all settings to “detect new stations”… but regardless, what they were, was the strangest part.

I had four new stations showing. ALL FOUR were listed as channel 39. Not 39.x, just “39”. But the channel names given were “WKOIDT2”, “WKOIDT3”, “WKOIDT4”, and “WKOIDT5”. There was no programming info listed, just “No data”.

I could imagine that there was some glitch with the info stream that causes remapping, and I would have thought that this was simply the explanation, but… ALL FOUR streams were a re-broadcast of WKEF 22 (ABC). :confused:

Anyone have an explanation?

I forgot to check and see if WKOI was still working normally on 43.x, though. Should have done that. When I get home this evening, I will check that out…

hall

02-13-09, 09:51 AM

Someone reported this same thing at a different site/forum here, http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r21779259-OTA-OTA-Channel-lineup. That was 1-2 (or more) weeks ago too.

I haven't done a re-scan on my receivers at home but we did just install a set-top for our break-room TV at work. We haven't "optimized" our antenna arrangement yet (in fact, I brought in my old bow-tie antenna for the time being) but do get WKOI (surprisingly) on 43.x, like it's supposed to be. No 39.x channels rec'd at all.

pjpjpjpj

02-13-09, 12:30 PM

jimp2244

02-13-09, 01:45 PM

^What do you use for the listings? Zap2it or something similar? I've seen those things send wrong data which causes similar issues.

mlbUC

02-13-09, 03:34 PM

More info... WHIO, WKEF, and WRGT have announced they are delaying their shutoff date. WHIO to May 3rd, WKEF and WRGT until June 12th.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/02/13/ddn021309dtvweb.html

DAYTON — At least two local TV stations have decided not to pursue a waiver that would have allowed them to begin the transition to digital TV broadcasts on Feb. 17.

Instead, WKEF-TV (Channel 22) and WRGT-TV (Channel 45) will wait until the new transition date of June 12 set by the Federal Communications Commission WHIO-TV Channel 7 will wait until May 3, general managers for the three stations announced Friday, Feb. 13.

WDTN-TV Channel 2 and WBDT-TV (Channel 26) had not made a decision as of early Friday afternoon.

Under a public notice issued Wednesday by the FCC, stations could opt to stick with the original transition date of Feb. 17, which is next Tuesday, if they met a long list of requirements to make sure no one in their viewership area would lose their TV service once the analog signal ended.

Harry Delaney, general manager of WHIO, said that was a big factor in his station's decision to hold off until May 3. He said 6 percent of the viewership region, or about 30,000 people in the Dayton area, are still not ready for the transition.

Nan Whaley, a Dayton City Commissioner who has advocated for a longer transition period, said she is happy to see stations go along with the new FCC transition date, especially since money has run out for the government's voucher program that allows each household two $40 coupons toward the purchase of digital conversion boxes.

At a Jan. 7 meeting with FCC officials in Dayton, many people complained that their coupons had expired and they couldn't obtain new ones or that stores were out of conversion boxes.

"It's the marginal folks — the folks who don't have that extra money right now in this bad economy — who won't be able to watch TV" if the transition occurs next week, she said.

rmondo

02-13-09, 03:55 PM

rmondo,

What antenna from Lowe's are you using? (make/model/etc) ... As You might also need something with more gain for best results from Cincinnati (and any shot at Indy orWNDY), and possibly a antenna with better directivity may improve your issues with WKEF as well.

Thanks for the info, Nitewatchman. I didn't save the model information, but it was the best directional they had All I remember is that it's a vhf/uhf/fm, and I think it's 8ft. I may give the pre-amp a try if my problem below is fixed. Also, a 3-8db increase by 22 might be enough to clarify my image, couldn't figure why they wouldn't go max anyways, but you say that is max for them so I'll take your word. I'm just going off what I read on other forums who said they talked to them and got a run around and claimed they could go higher. I personally have no idea, so like I said, I'll take your word on it. But I can say their signal, be it power, direction, antenna style, height, location, etc caused, was much weaker than any of my other channels. Must be something on their end, because I have tuned their sweet spot in on my antenna, and it's not nearly comparable to any other channel I do get in... maybe whatever the reason I can't get them is also the reason I don't get PBS or Cincinnati stations... obstructions somewhere, nuclear power plants run by Homer Simpson, who knows, heh.

I have a new problem, though. After that windstorm we had this week, I lost all of my channels except 26.1. 2 and 7 usually have a much stronger signal, but they are just about non-existant now. My power indicator does register that there is a trace of a signal, unlike tuning to a non-existant channel which shows 0. My antenna doesn't appear damaged, and I have a motor on it, and have made some adjustments, but does no good.

The analog signals come in crystal clear, and I've tried two different tuners, and both have the same results.

Does anyone know if their antenna were damaged?

BTW, PBS 58 doesn't come in digitally for me... not sure that will change when they move it to 16, which I get via analog.

But this is really annoying. As I said, I get 26.1. It is a little weaker than before. My Zenith box will tune it, but my Sony TV won't tune it because it fell through it's threshold (though I get the HD signal perfectly clear without any problems on the box).

Honestly, for all the money it may cost to get them back if its a problem on my end, I'm considering Dish Network or Direct TV. I've had it before, and it was much easier to tune in. I really don't want to spend hundreds more on yet another antenna (I've already bought two at over $130 each), and a preamp will be a last resort option.

I'll give the stations a week or two, to see if it is their problem and give them time to fix it. Since this big changeover is coming in a few days, I would think they'd have their crews hard at work on any problems.

It's sad to see happen. I had enough to be satisfied, now I'm going to go almost completely dark. At least I have a great mast up to get over any trees with a new dish.

If anyone has heard anything about wind damage at stations, please post it here. Thanks.

Nitewatchman

02-13-09, 04:48 PM

More info... WHIO, WKEF, and WRGT have announced they are delaying their shutoff date. WHIO to May 3rd, WKEF and WRGT until June 12th.

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2009/02/13/ddn021309dtvweb.html

MUCH better info in that article ....

UPDATE 5/35 PM : -- Add WDTN to that ....

WDTN, WHIO, WKEF and WRGT -- All FOUR of them in Dayton on the "123 station list" have ALL filed "Certification/Alternate Showing: Analog termination on February 17, 2009" - Forms which are showing up in their Correspondance folders as of 5:10pm EST 2/13 -- Filing date/Time shown ranges from Feb 12 9pm, to 4:50pm EST 2/13 (an "exhibit 5" is mentioned, on each form but not attached/not currently available for download) --

On Each form, each station (all 4) chose the following option :

The above-referenced station DOES NOT certify to the conditions for analog turn off set forth in the Public Notice, FCC 09-7, released February 11, 2009, and will continue analog service until given FCC authorization (by rule or order) to turn off that service.

--------------------------

So, I wonder if WBDT and WPTD will change their plans ? I hope not ....

Update: Well, now I see the the info in the DDN article Indicates they ARE changing their plans (If FCC allows it, as both Notifed FCC they'd be shutting down analog Feb 17 and FCC "ok'ayed it and currently has them "listed" as shutting down 2/17) ....

------------------

Update : 5:53 PM -- WDTN Local news story just confirmed they will be "delaying" their analog shut off. No specific target date was given.

robmadden1

02-13-09, 06:06 PM

It looks like MY64 will be the only station in the Cincinnati and Dayton area to go fully digital come Tuesday unless ThinkTV (Channel16) gets a waiver from the FCC to keep analog on.

rmondo

02-13-09, 06:43 PM

whiotv.com/news/18708864/detail.html

Channel 7 is currently broadcasting its digital signal on a backup antenna. In order to broadcast a clear digital signal to the entire viewing area, the station's analog antenna must be removed and a new permanent digital antenna put in its place at the top of our transmission tower. This work was scheduled to begin in March. WHIO-TV has worked to re-schedule this work until the first week in May.

Well, that at least does answer one question, how digital can go dead but not the analog. Maybe other stations are doing this too, and they're not too worried about backup antennas if most of their metropolitan viewers don't notice a problem.

Nitewatchman

02-13-09, 07:31 PM

....Must be something on their end ....

........ I'll give the stations a week or two, to see if it is their problem and give them time to fix it. Since this big changeover is coming in a few days, I would think they'd have their crews hard at work on any problems.... .

.....Does anyone know if their antenna were damaged? ....

......... Well, that at least does answer one question, how digital can go dead but not the analog. Maybe other stations are doing this too, and they're not too worried about backup antennas if most of their metropolitan viewers don't notice a problem.

I can see it's apparent You're very confused concerning matters involving the above as well as some other things, but I'm sorry that I do not have the patience right now to attempt to eliminate your confusion, perhaps someone else does ...

Nitewatchman

02-13-09, 07:41 PM

Well, Looks like WPTD/WBDT will be able to Delay analog shut off past Feb 17 as the info in the DDN article said they are working on, per this portion of a new FCC Order just posted on FCC website :

6. By this Order we reconsider the limitation adopted in the February 5 Public Notice that
stated: “We expect that stations indicating their intent to terminate their analog service on February 17 will do so. Therefore, as a condition of the waiver granted herein, the Commission will not permit stations to withdraw or modify these notifications except in the event of emergency or disaster necessitating the continued operation of analog service. The analog operations of stations submitting notification of intent to terminate analog service on February 17, 2009 pursuant to this Public Notice will
no longer be protected from interference after February 17, 2009.”21 Some stations that were not on the Appendix to the February 11 Public Notice have expressed interest in withdrawing their notifications for good reasons associated with circumstances in their markets, but not rising to the level of an “emergency or disaster.” We find that it is in the public interest to allow stations to withdraw their notifications of intent to terminate analog service on February 17, 2009.
7. Due to the limited period of time remaining before February 17th, stations that wish to
withdraw their notifications must notify us no later than 6:00 pm EST on Sunday, February 15, 2009. Stations should send an email to : xxxxxxxxxx@xxxxxx and place “Withdrawal of Termination Notification” in the subject line. Stations should also revise their “Viewer Notifications” to reflect their change in plans as soon as possible.

Text of entire order is here :

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-9A1.pdf

-------------

What a ridiculous waste of time, effort and resources regarding issues related to "DTV Delay act" the last week has been for many stations ....

We went from all Dayton analog full service stations(except WKOI) shutting down on February 17 as little as 24 hours ago, to it now being likely that NONE of them will shut down analog on Feb 17 ...

pjpjpjpj

02-14-09, 11:08 AM

I have a new problem, though. After that windstorm we had this week, I lost all of my channels except 26.1. 2 and 7 usually have a much stronger signal, but they are just about non-existant now....
Does anyone know if their antenna were damaged?

But this is really annoying. As I said, I get 26.1. It is a little weaker than before. My Zenith box will tune it, but my Sony TV won't tune it because it fell through it's threshold (though I get the HD signal perfectly clear without any problems on the box).
rmondo... :confused: ... wow, where to start?

First: why are you using a Zenith converter box with a Sony TV that already has a digital tuner in it? The Zenith converter box takes a digital signal and converts it back to analog for older TVs that are analog-only. Your Sony TV has both analog and digital tuners. There is no need for a converter box on a new TV.

Second: I have a Sony LCD like you, so I can tell you this: when you did a channel scan with your Sony TV, it found both analog and digital stations that you were able to receive. So you could literally have channel 16 (in analog), and then the next "channel up" would be 16.2 (remapped from 58.2) which would be the digital version of 16. So when you say that reception on 26 is "weaker"... if you mean the picture is snowy or less clear, then you are watching the analog station. Digital stations are either on or off.. and when they are being received poorly, they are basically unwatchable (drop-outs, blockiness, "tearing", etc.).

This goes for any station you are watching with your Sony TV straight from the antenna (with your Zenith box off) - if you see "snow" or static, or lines or any of those "old school poor reception" traits, then you are watching the analog station, regardless of whether the picture fills your 16:9 screen or not.

I have a feeling that you have your TV picture settings such that all channels fill the entire 16:9 screen, and therefore you think everything you are watching is HD. This is not the case. In fact, I am kinda wondering how little HD you are really are getting....

I wouldn't think I would have to tell you this except for your comment about getting HD from the Zenith box. You get no HD from the Zenith box. The whole point of the box is that it takes digital signals (sometimes HD, depending on the station) and converts them back into SD 4:3 analog, so that old analog-only TVs can view them. There are no HD-capable outputs on the back of your converter box... it can't send out HD, period. So if you have the box connected to your Sony HDTV, and the picture fills the screen, it's because you are using the TV's "stretch/fill/zoom" options to blow up an SD picture to full-screen. It is NOT HD. You should find the picture setting (I think it is called "Full") where everything from your Zenith box has black bars on the sides and appears 4:3. Then, if a show on another channel (directly from antenna, no Zenith box) fills the screen, then it is HD. The only HD you will get is when you watch a digital station that is broadcasting in HD (16.6, for example) straight from an antenna into your TV. So take that Zenith box off your Sony TV right now, and go attach it to an old tube TV in another room.

BTW, PBS 58 doesn't come in digitally for me... not sure that will change when they move it to 16, which I get via analog.
I don't believe 58 is moving to 16. It will always be sent out at 58.x, and remapped to 16.x. It's just that analog 16 will eventually go away. I think.

I'll give the stations a week or two, to see if it is their problem and give them time to fix it. Since this big changeover is coming in a few days, I would think they'd have their crews hard at work on any problems.
No changeover is coming for a while. Read all the surrounding posts. Your lovely government (our tax dollars at work) pushed back the deadline.

On the bright side, you have several more months to ask questions here and get your situation figured out, so you don't have to pay the cable/sat monster.

It's sad to see happen. I had enough to be satisfied, now I'm going to go almost completely dark. At least I have a great mast up to get over any trees with a new dish.
If anyone has heard anything about wind damage at stations, please post it here. Thanks.
As I explained above, your Sony HDTV will not go dark. Neither will any old tube TV that you connect that (now "spare") Zenith box to. Both will receive the digital stations after the switch.... if the switch ever happens. :rolleyes:

However, if you are not getting any digital stations right now, might I suggest you check all of your connections and wiring and such? All the digital stations are working fine, so you should be getting them. If they "went out" in the windstorm, it's because of something that happened at your house. Perhaps a coax cable jack came loose from the cable itself? And you do have your antenna mast grounded, don't you?