MadB
I'm pretty sure the agreements between CBS and TWC were for markets in which CBS owns the local affiliate. Cable carriage agreements are between the local station and the cable company.

Should have gotten the built-in tuner, huh? <g>. Really, there aren't any "unsettled standards" to worry about with built-in ATSC tuners.

Doc

Posh,

Don't count on much with a silver sensor in the basement. You can always try a portable TV down there and see how your analog reception is. If it's bad then you can probably write off trying to receive a digital signal.

Paul

Yeah, Basements and antennas don't mix too well, especially when concrete and being underground is involved. Dayton Towers are to the West-Southwest of Huber Heights. Placing your antenna near a west-facing window and aiming it towards the towers would probably be your best option from indoors, although outdoors would be the best option ---

I'd definitiely get antenna out of the basement if at all possible(certianly no harm in trying it though) --- Get some extra feedline(and maybe a amp) and get the antenna higher if at all possible. With a decent outdoor setup, depending upon terrain issues/etc, you could probably have some luck with the Cincy stations from your location as well.

Concering your other question, I have a Zenith HDV420+DTC-100 here, both work just fine for the local stations, no dropouts. As Doc mentioned the antenna is the main place to make improvements. HDV420 does seem to perform a bit better, especially where multipath is concerned. From what I understand, it and the SIR-T151 are quite comparable in overall performance, with HDV420 doing better with Multipath.

I do wish the HDV420 supported more PSIP options, such as Off-air EPG info/Time/Date auto set/STation ID via PSIP/etc -- which the Samsung box supports, and I believe the HDV420's soon to come replacement, the LG 3100a will support PSIP more fully as well.

Originally posted by DrDon
MadB
I'm pretty sure the agreements between CBS and TWC were for markets in which CBS owns the local affiliate. Cable carriage agreements are between the local station and the cable company.

Should have gotten the built-in tuner, huh? <g>. Really, there aren't any "unsettled standards" to worry about with built-in ATSC tuners.

Doc

DrDon,

Thx I figured it must be a local issue with money an lawyers involved :(

The tuner would have been nice, but the $500 save is still worth the couple of months of inconvenient's :)

No offense meant, but how exactly do you figure you are saving money if you're paying $50+ per month for cable service, which you would need to do(TW Digital Cable I assume) to get access to HD over cable ...

Around 1 year or less of cable service ~= Costs for OTA DTV/HD reception(Receiver+Antenna setup - Latter which should last decades, the receiver should last quite a while too) ... And, since you're not getting everything the locals offer HD/Fox Widescreen wise, that formula is still somewhat "skewed" ...

Certianly, you get more programming options overall from Cable/DBS service, and certianly it makes $ sense if you are going to be subscribing the Digital cable anyway, but there is no question that OTA is the way to go if you want to Save $.

--------------
Update:

Also, I wouldn't be so sure that you'll be waiting just a couple of months for HD from ABC/CBS, or Fox Widescreen(avaialble from Cincy station), or HD from WB(WB HD not available yet in area except for those who can receive WWHO-DT Chillocothe) ---

For Instance, The Cincy station has been in Fox Widescreen since 2000 and TW Cincy still doesn't carry it, CBS HD Dayton Has been on Air for over 2 Years now, ABC HD Dayton has been on air since January 2003 ... Earlier in this thread, in Feb 03, AVSmembers with Dayton TW cable had received info from TW which indicated they were in negotiations with WHIO-DT+WDTN-DT for CBS and ABC HD at that time, and that they should soon be added ..... Also, as soon as the Cincy/Dayton WB stations start doing HD, OTA viewers will have it right off the bat, but there still may be a "undetirmined waiting period" for Cable viewers ... "who knows" about UPN HD when they start doing it, since we don't have a OTA UPN station in Dayton.

Also, of course, when Dayton stations miss the Network HD, most Dayton area OTA viewers(if they have a decent antenna setup) can switch to the Cincy(and from the East side possibly Columbus) DTV/HD stations for HD ... Probably be quite some time before Dayton Cable carries the Cincy DTV/HD stations ....

Just some thoughts ... Of course, if you do decide you've been waiting too long for TW Dayton to provide ABC+CBS HD, with the luck we HD viewers seem to have at times it'll probably be the case that TW Dayton will add CBS+ABC HD as soon as you've forked over the cash for a receiver ;)

Thanks for the help guys.... any suggestion on an antenna for picking up Cincy channels... it has to do VHF to. I live about 1 mile north of I-70. Thanks.

Posh,

I live over near Englewood and I have the Channelmaster Crossfire 3671 combo antenna. It's chimney mounted with rotator on a single-story house. I receive all the Dayton and Cincy digitals, and intermittently I get some of the Columbus digitals. You can check out their Crossfire line here:

http://www.channelmaster.com/pages/c1.htm

Paul

Posh,

I'd agree with Paul, the CM3671 mounted above your roofline or higher, or something similar might work very well for you -- Perhaps for Cincinnati AND Columbus from your location -- Dayton too of course, although you wouldn't need that much for Dayton -- Heck an antenna sitting in a basement window MIGHT be enough for Dayton, hard to say ....

I'm guessing you are between SR 201+202, and the good news is I looked at my topo software and that area looks to be in a nice high, and pretty much flat spot, 950-1020FT Above sea Level ..

I also checked and you would be about 57~59 Miles from The Cincinnati AND Columbus towers --- For Cincy, the good news is, I was a bit wrong in my earlier post as Dayton Towers are Actually Southwest of your location(a South facing window would probably be better than a west facing window), on pretty much the same heading as the Cincy towers -- So, you shouldn't need a rotor to receive both Cincy and Dayton stations --- For Columbus though, you'd want to use a rotor or different antenna on a seperate feedline, but I'd try it by "manual rotation by hand" first to see what you get before buying anything else.

At 57~59 miles out, that probably puts you in the "Fringe area" for Cincinnati and Columbus stations. It's hard to say exactly what, and "how much antenna" you would need, but a hi-gain, directional antenna setup, mounted fairly high(4' or more above your roofline if at all possible) would probably be a good bet -- If at all possible, it's also often a good idea to try to find a "sweet spot" for reception for your antenna too, before mounting it permantly -- a spot a couple of feet away(horizontally), or a couple of feet(even inches sometimes) up or down can make a big difference.

A good, hi-quality preamp might help you too with the Cincy/Columbus stations, but since you'll be aiming right towards Dayton towers to pick up Cincy, the Strong Dayton stations(12~14 miles) may overload things a bit and might cause some problems -- Hopefully though, it wouldn't be too much of an issue for you, and if so could be cureable with a variable attenuator. Probably best to try it without the preamp first and see how it goes. A FM trap(most preamps have these) may also be benifical for you for The Cincy+Columbus VHF ABC digital stations, as well as some of the analog Cincy VHF stations.

As for antennas that might "fit the bill" there are too many to list, and many options that might work for you. Seperate UHF/VHF antennas often provide the best performance(which would probably be good in your situation for Cincy/columbus), but there are some good VHF/UHF Combo antennas out there as well, and it is nice sometimes to have a "1 piece overall solution".

The main problem with Hi-gain VHF antennas is that they are quite large(by TV antenna standards), and you need to make sure that your mount is steady enough for such a large antenna given windload and ice loading considerations. It's hard to say if a "medium sized" VHF/UHF combo antenna would be enough, but given your location that seems to be like it might be in a high spot, you just never know without trying it.

If you are going to go with a single VHF/UHF combo antenna and want a little "extra insurance", antennas such as the Radio Shack VU-190(OK), Channel Master 3671 or 3679(Very good), Winegaurd HD8200p(Very good - Winegaurd makes a couple of other good "fringe area antennas" as well) or the Delhi/Jerrold VU-937(Very good, maybe best), perhaps with a good preamp might not be such a bad idea -- Except for their Size that is --- These antennas are 14~17 feet long or so, and as much as 8-9' wide in places and are are "fringe area" antennas for VHF/UHF and generally do perform quite well, although not as well as seperate antennas, such as a CM4228 or CM4248 for UHF and a VHF Delhi VIP-307SR(this antenna is 17 feet long too -- probably the best ch. 2-13 VHF antenna out there).

Presently at least, for the local digital stations on VHF(10+13 Columbus) you don't actually need the part of the antenna that is the "largest", which is for TV channels 2-6, and you can also get good VHF antennas which are smaller, and are made for Channels 7-13 only. If, however, you're also interested in getting good reception from analog stations on 2-6, Good FM reception, or if after analog shut off we end up with Lo-VHF digital stations on 2-6, you might want to consider a antenna that is designed for channels 2-13, or as is the case with the VHF Combo antennas, VHF+UHF channels 2-69.

Go to the following site+punch in Your address/etc, and it will give you a good indication of the stations you should be able to receive, as well as recommending antenna to use -- It is often a good idea to go a step or 2 up from their recommendations for the weakest station you want to receive, and "multidirectional", or bidirectional antennas are almost never a good idea for VHF/UHF, IMO.

http://www.antennaweb.org

You can also find loads of great antenna info here on AVSforum, especially in the hardware area.

Also, Here is place that sells antennas/preamps of many different makes and models, it might be helpful to look through some of the info on these -- Keep in mind, the mileage figures don't mean much, it's Gain + Directivity that are important :

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

Hope this helps, and I look forward to hearing about your results!

Thanks Nitewatchman and Paul320,

You guessed right. I do live between 201+202.. just off 202 actually. My goal is to get Cincy and Dayton channels and Columbus is secondary. But I will definitely see how they come in. I would like VHF to get 2 and 7 dayton analog channels (for my non-hd tv's) and possibly Cincinnati ABC 10. The analog channels show in the green on antennaweb and Cincy 10 is in the light green. I like the idea of seperate antenna's. The Channel Master 4228 looks nice but i need a less obtrusive vhf antenna than a 17' one. I live in a subdivision and I like my neighbors and we get along :). I imagine to get 2+7 wouldn't be difficult. The Columbus and Cincy ABC channels might be more difficult im guessing without getting a large antenna. Is there anything smaller that might work well? I will update you with my progress as it happens.. by the way i have a Samsung 351 on the way for my hdtv receiver. Thanks again.

Posh,

CM4228 Sounds like a good Choice for you for UHF. And you're right, "rabbit ears" should more than do it for 2+7 analogs, and you probably wouldn't need a lot more than that for "decent" reception of analogs 5,9,12 Cincy or analogs 4,6,10 Columbus ... ---

And, Yes, Columbus has a Channel 10 analog, and Cincy has a Channel 10 Digital -- This is certianly a bit of a potential Co-Channel interference issue for you(and many) which shows one reason why directional antennas are so important! There are few more too -- WCET-DT 34 Cincy -- Analog WOSU 34 Columbus -- WTTE 28 Analog Columbus and (not yet on air) WPTO-DT 28 Oxford(Will be on WXIX 19's tower in Cincy).

Also, actually, ABC(HD) DT-13 Columbus may be easier for you to receive than DT-10 Cincinnati, because of the potential Co-Channel interfeerence issue with WBNS 10 Columbus, and because WSYX-DT 13 Columbus is running more power, and likely with less potential interference from "spurious" Harmonics/etc. from hi-power FM transmitters in the area(especially since your antenna will need to be aimed towards columbus, and away from the nearby Dayton Towers, which wouldn't be the case for DT-10 Cincy) ...

If you want to go with a relatively small VHF antenna, perhaps something like the APS V-302 or V-303 may work ok for you. I'm sure there are some other similar " relatively small" VHF only antennas out there as well. Problem with using a "small-medium sized" VHF/UHF combo antenna is the UHF section will be much "weaker" and won't perform anywhere near as well as a UHF antenna such as the CM4228 will - And getting good performance on UHF is probably going to be a must from your location for The Cincy/Columbus UHF stations.

Anyhow, to look at APS V-302/V-303 (and the other APS VHF antennas), Go to following site, Click on "TV Antennas" The "VHF Outdoor Antennas" then each specific model # for Size/Gain/Pattern info/etc.

http://www.antennaperformance.com/

Keep in mind though, in order to get really good performance out of a ch 2-13 VHF antenna(especially directivity wise, but Gain wise as well) you really need a "big" antenna -- Which isn't the case on UHF, due to the Wavelength's involved. However it is also the case that In general, VHF signals are easier to receive with "less antenna", so something like the APS V-302/303/304 may work very well for you for VHF.

-----

If you do go with seperate VHF/UHF antennas, For best results you'll want to either use a VHF/UHF combiner/Joiner such as the CM 0549(about $7), or a preamp with seperate VHF/UHF inputs to combine the two antennas together onto the same feedline.

If you want Columbus too, perhaps rotor would probably be a good idea, but If you want to use seperate antennas+no rotor for:

1.) Dayton and Cincinnati
2.) Columbus

You would need to use seperate antennas on seperate feedlines, with a A/B switch near the receiver to choose between the two antenna setups(which if you're using seperate VHF/UHF antennas for each would actually make for 4 seperate antennas - Which would mean you'd need plenty of mast space, probably 2 masts).

---------------------

Update:

Forgot to mention -- As I mentioned earlier, To start off with it's probably a good idea to try reception without preamp and without splitting the signal between antenna+DTV receiver -- However, Since you are planning on running the feed from antenna to several different TV's, you will probably want or need to use a preamp. Each two-way splitter will cause approx. 2.5-3db of signal loss, Plue the loss of your coax run. Of course, the longer the Coax/feedline run, the more signal loss you would have as well, especially so on UHF, and Higher UHF frequencies/channels especially.

The best way to use a preamp for an antenna in order to have a good, clean signal to work with is to get the preamp as close to the antenna as possible. This means you would want to use a relatively hi-gain/lo-noise, mast-mount preamp. The preamp itself mounts on the Antenna mast, and DC power is supplied to the preamp via the Coax/feedline -- You place the power inserter between the preamp and the first place you split the feed -- perhaps placing the power inserter in the attic if you going to be running feedlines TV's in different rooms.

Channel Master, Blonder-Tongue and Winegaurd make good, hi-quality preamps, If you're using seperate VHF/UHF antennas you would most likely want to use a mast-mount preamp with seperate VHF/UHF inputs. You might want to be somewhat "picky" concerning the gain of the model of preamp you use, as too much preamp gain may make for a tuner overload or preamp overload/Intermoduation distortion problem from the nearby, strong Dayton Stations, especially since your antenna will be aimed at the Dayton towers when it's aimed at Cincinnati -- But, on the other hand, If you are planning on splitting the signal to 3 or 4 different rooms, it's probably a good idea to go with the Highest gain/lowest noise preamps out there.

I suppose distribution amps are another possiblilty, however they aren't generally all that great of an idea to use with TV antennas as for one reason, they tend to ampify the "noise" that can be "picked up" by the feedline between the antenna and the distribution amp, wheras with a mast-mount preamp, the preamp has a good signal to work with to begin with. You absolutely would not want to use a Mast Mount-preamp AND a distribution amp "together" as the distribution amp will mostly just amplify noise+interference instead of signal.

In other words, for various reasons(some which I haven't gotten into "in detail" as I figure you might be getting sick of reading this stuff:-) In "strong signal areas" if you're trying to pull in weaker, more distant stations too, it's often important to find a good "balance" to things -- This can involve such things as choosing a preamp with the "right amount" of gain, and/or it can mean that in order to get all the stations you want having to "live with" only 3 or 4 TV's in 2 seperate rooms hooked up to your outdoor antenna+preamp instead of 10 TV's in 5 seperate rooms/etc, or, if you aren't using a preamp at all it could mean you could be limited to 1 DTV receiver+ analog TV hooked up via RF "loop out jack" if you want good reception from Cincy.

Also, However, keep in mind, depending upon how you implement "splitters/feedlines", you may be able to send the "important devices" such as your DTV receiver more signal in order to pull in weaker stations, and less signal to "less important devices", such as an analog TV that it might be "OK" not to get a perfect signal from some of the Cincy UHF stations.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
No offense meant, but how exactly do you figure you are saving money if you're paying $50+ per month for cable service, which you would need to do(TW Digital Cable I assume) to get access to HD over cable ...

Hi Nitewatchman,

No offense taken, still working on my 1st cup of coffee so hope this makes sense :)

I have had TWC for a long time and will continue to get it. Viewing is split 50/50 between local and cable only channels. I wouldn't be happy with just OTA channels. So I'm paying and will pay the 50$

To receive the HD Channels I have to pay an additional 6.95$ for the STB
500$ divided by 6.95$ = 72 months
So it will take 6 yrs renting TWC¡'s STB to equal the additional cost of the tuner had I gotten one with my HDTV.
Right now I get NBC HD and 3 channels not available OTA.
I would really be happy to be able to get CBS and ABC, mostly CBS.
Of course once you get spoiled on HD you wish it all was in HD :)

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Just some thoughts ... Of course, if you do decide you've been waiting too long for TW Dayton to provide ABC+CBS HD, with the luck we HD viewers seem to have at times it'll probably be the case that TW Dayton will add CBS+ABC HD as soon as you've forked over the cash for a receiver ;)

LOL isn't that the trueth. I can guarantee you with my luck that's exactly what would happen.
The week after I bought my Mitsu HDTV they dropped the price 200$, of course I went back and made them credit me the difference :)

From what I can drag out of TWC they are saying they should add CBS, ABC and maybe ESPN HD by the end of the year, So its worth it for me to wait.
PS I have checked the websites of the other TWC's in Ohio and they all carry the 3 networks in HD as well as Fox. Since TWC western ohio was one of the last to make the upgrade to digital cable. I quess they will be last to add the 3 network channels too.

Mad

Before I reply let me point out ... I personally do not care How anyone choose to get HD from the local stations, all I know is, the more of us that are watching HD from our local stations(however we are receiving them -- OTA or cable), the better it is for all of us.

Originally posted by Madb
I have had TWC for a long time and will continue to get it..... I wouldn't be happy with just OTA channels....... So I'm paying and will pay the 50$ ...... To receive the HD Channels I have to pay an additional 6.95$ for the STB 500$ divided by 6.95$ = 72 months


Yes, I understand that, as I said, it makes sense $ wise if you are already "set" on paying $600+ per year for Digital cable. At least over a 6 year time frame. I do expect though my DTV receivers will have a lifetime greater than 6 years, and my antenna is already over 10 years old, and still works, and looks like new.

What I am getting at is please don't say(and I'm not saying you did say this, I'm just pointing this out for those who may not know the "details"), or imply that HD via cable is cheaper than OTA, or a OTA DTV receiver. You can't just say you're paying $6.95 for HD per month, without taking into account the $50+ per month(or whatever) you are paying for access to anything via cable.

I also understand that many folks want more than OTA programming -- Personally, If I did want more than OTA+DVD(which I don't really), I would choose DBS or C-band sat over cable, not only because it's cheaper -- Of course, Since TWC decided not to run cable to my specific area, Cable is not a choice that is available to me anyhow.

I would also point out that even though many folks pay $600+ per year and access their local stations/OTA nets over cable/DBS locals Much, if not most of the programming(50% in your case) they actually watch ends up being the same programming they could be getting over an antenna without the monthly bills! Personally, I'm not going to pay $30, 40, $50 per month for hundreds of Channels I won't watch just for a few channels and maybe at most 10-15 hours of programming per month I might want to see that I can't get OTA -- I'd also point out that I can get pretty much all the "cable only" programming I want to see Via DVD -- Usually for free from Local Library ...Yes, I can check out anamorphic DVD of, for example a full-season of "Sopranos" for free and for a week's time along with 11 other DVD titles if I want ... More programming than I have time to watch ...

I can also assure you that if I did have cable, I'd still keep+use the antenna+OTA DTV/HD receiver for the stations+HD/Fox widescreen/etc. I can't get over cable, for better quality from the analog stations, and for any disruption of cable service.

If you're paying that much for TV programming via cable, $300-400(That's how much a OTA only STB generally costs presently, say $100~200 or so for antenna setup, although it might be less than $50) "permanent cost" for a STB doesn't seem to me to be a big add'l cost. But sure, if your local cableco is offering all, or most all of the HD/DTV locals you could receive(For instance, 14 DTV stations on the air in Cincy/Dayton, 10 of which do HD or Fox widescreen) and you are already a digital cable subscriber, why buy the "extra" box.

I'm sure you're thinking, "well, I don't need 2 ABC or CBS HD stations from different cities" -- While most of the time, it's true you won't get more HD programming from say, the Cincy CBS station than you would get from Dayton .... But not allways ... For instance -- The Cincy CBS station also does a local HD production of WEBN Fireworks in Cincinnati that is available no where else ... When a Weather bug goes up, HD may be missing from the Dayton station, but not Cincy ... When NBC Dayton misses the "switch" to HD or has problems, Cincy NBC station has HD .. When Dayton station chooses to run "Billy Graham", Cincy has Network HD/etc/etc .... Now, as is the case now with analog I would expect that after analog shut off time and/or which time must carry rules apply to Digital+analog stations, I would expect Dayton Cable will probably carry the Cincy digital stations, maybe even some of the Columbus stations if you're on the East side of Dayton.

I would also point out that soon, DTV(ATSC) receivers will be included in sets anyway, and the cost of OTA DTV receiver will go way, way, way down once receivers begin to be mass produced+millions of products sold. Unless decision is overturned in court(CEA is fighting the decision), FCC has mandated ATSC(DTV) Tuners in all sets on a phase in basis, starting with all sets over 36" screen size in Mid-2004. Personally, I think OTA DTV receivers should have started going into all sets/VCR's before the first DTV station came on the air. Also, FCC has already ruled that any set labeled as "digital cable Ready" must also have a DTV receiver for OTA reception inside.

Originally posted by Madb
Right now I get NBC HD


I believe you also get PBS HD from WPTD-DT Dayton. It should be on TW channel 716 -- If it's like OTA, this channel will be Blank except when they do HD/PBS Widescreen, Which they do 6-11pm on weekends, and 8-11pm M-F. Their program schedule is here, Choose "customize" and Think16HD and you can look at the complete HD schedule up to a week ahead:

http://www.thinktv.org/program/program.php

Originally posted by Madb
PS I have checked the websites of the other TWC's in Ohio and they all carry the 3 networks in HD as well as Fox.


Judging from the reports from people who have TWC HD in Ohio, I'm afraid that is incorrect. TW Cincy carries All the Cincy/N KY stations which provide HD, but they don't carry the Cincy Fox Widescreen station(on air since 2000), or Cincy Digital WB station(No WB HD yet). As you know, the Dayton Fox digital station which TWC does carry does not do Fox Widescreen. TWC Columbus does not carry the Columbus ABC HD, or Columbus Fox Widescreen station. My understanding on the latter is that there is an "impasse" in negotiating cable carriage rights between TWC and The company that owns those stations.

Originally posted by Madb
Since TWC western ohio was one of the last to make the upgrade to digital cable. I quess they will be last to add the 3 network channels too.


I wouldn't hold my breath -- My understanding is, the main impasse involves negotiations between the local station and the Cable Company for carriage rights. Supposedly, FCC is going to make a "add'l" ruling soon concerning digital cable-must carry rules -- As it stands right now, a cableco doesn't have to carry a station's digital signal via must-carry until after analog shut off, or a station requests they carry the digital instead of the analog - They don't have to carry both ... Also, of course, Must-carry rules don't apply anyway unless the station which is providing a certian level of signal to the local cable head end involved ASKS the cableco to carry their signal, and I believe most of the "negotiating" between stations and cableco's over HD now, and perhaps in the future regards negotiating "Retransmission consent", not cable Must-carry. For instance, some stations are wanting $$ from the cableco's to allow them to carry their digital stations/HD.

Of course, there are actually 5 OTA nets, not 3 currently doing HD(ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS+WB), and word is, UPN will be doing HD in the future, and There is Fox Widescreen, with Fox moving to HD by Fall 2004. While those of us who can't receive WWHO-DT Chillocothe are missing WB HD currently, pretty much all of that OTA HD/Fox Widescreen is available to OTA viewers in the area, and eventually, the Digital WB Cincy+Dayton stations will have WB HD -- WKRC-DT Cincy used to have it(haven't seen it in a while), and WWHO-DT Chillocothe also has Paramount's Syndicated HDOne Movie package -- And again, also, the Cincinnati stations have at times shown some locally produced HD that haven't been on Dayton Stations -- WEBN Fireworks, "At the Water's Edge" on WCET-DT(Tall stacks/etc), and it's been quite a while, but every once in a while we used to see HD demo loops shot by a HD production Co in Cincy on WKRC-DT and WCPO-DT.

-------------------------------------------

Let me add one more thing to Jeff's argument: Any OTA STB you buy now can be used with your analog-only set after analog shutoff (and won't we all have a few of those!). True, that's not going to be for quite a while, but I bought a second STB just to get programming the local channels are sending on subchannels that (until recently) wasn't available anywhere else. We still get a 24/7 "weather channel" with a live Doppler radar. And Billy Graham's entire Cincinnati crusade was carried on WKRC-DT's subchannel.

The side benefit is that I get a local channel picture on my regular television that nothing, not even satellite or digital cable, can compare to. The darn thing looks like it's hooked up right to the station's switcher. It's that clean on a regular TV. And, of course, any videotapes I make keep that same quality. (Jeff and I use a trick with our STBs and S-VHS recorders to record HDTV shows anamorphically so we can watch them back as 480p 16X9 shows - the TVs do the upconverting).

So, to me, the 280-dollar purchase (open box) was well worth it for the out-of-town signals, the subchannel programming and the crystal-clear picture on a standard TV.

Doc

Doc,

Yeah -- I still might have a problem with my Casio handheld though -- It actually DOES have a RF in/ant in jack(mini-plug), but do I really want to carry around a RF modulator and STB ;-) -- Just kidding!

And yes, I'm a geek I have actually carried the handheld TV up on the tower with me to see what sort of Coax loss I was getting on weak LP signals .. LOL.

In the future, I'm hoping to be able to get a small, portable ATSC tuner I can hook up to laptop -- They have'em for NTSC via USB now, but I want ATSC+HD, and I'm not sure USB would be fast enough for HD ... Ethernet would be though .. don't have firewire jack on laptop unfortuntely ...

All,

Well, I've noticed 3 of the 4 of last few nights WPTD-DT is having problems on the HD sub again(16.5 - 716 for TWC) --- data loss/etc. The problem is not in your set .. Although it looks like a reception problem --- check 16.1, which is fine ...

Also noticed that they are keeping more than 1 SD sub during HD :-(
SD subs 16.1+16.3 are up tonight alongside SD, last night they ALL were up during PBS HD/widescreen when I looked. Thought it might be a mistake, but noticed on their website schedule that programming is scheduled for both 16.1(simulcast of 16 analog) and 16.3(PBS Again) during HD.

1 SD sub is bad enough where compression artifacts+HD are concerned and if they just absolutely must do 2 of them, why not 16.4 WPTO simulcast instead of the "Delayed" PBS feed .....

I really hate to complain about them though, as they are really great folks up there and have done a fine job providing us with PBS HD, and IMO, presently are the best PBS HD station anywhere around here.

Jeff,

WPTD-DT is still having the same HD problems. I'm getting 100% signal but every 4-5 seconds there is video pixelization and a loss of audio lasting a few seconds. It made "Secrets of the Dead" unwatchable last night on 16-5 and I had to go to SD on 16-1.

Kevin

Kevin,

Yep. I sent their Chief Engineer a note last night about it, as well as asking them if at all possible to drop any "extra" SD subchannels during HD/etc.

Contact info for them is here:

http://www.thinktv.org/about/contacts.html

As you know ThinkTV Operations Manager, Charles Cole was posting here on AVSForum in The Old, Summer Cincinnati Thread about a Month ago or so, hopefully he has found his way to the Dayton Thread. This current problem has happened a number of times since May, If you haven't seen them, you can find several references to it on past pages of This and The Cincy thread. Here's what Charles said about it the last time it happened:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2633000#post2633000

Thanks, Jeff. It is happening less tonight, it seems, but still not back to its usual quality. I emailed Fred Stone at WPTD, too. Thanks for the links.

Kevin

Heard Back from Fred Stone at WPTD-DT Today -- He says they're having problems with their Datacasting datahub, in that it is exceeding it's preset bandwidth limits --- He said they are in contact with the manufacturer who is working on a fix, and in the meantime they have turned off datacasting input to their DTV multiplexer ...

Seems to be working, as it looks fine tonight. I really enjoy "Tracks Ahead" and "Smarttravels" in HD :-)

Looking for some antenna selection help. I live in Springboro/Lebanon. I use the intersection of St Rt 122 and St Rt 48 as my location.

Will be using Sony's new SAT HD 300 directv/ota receiver. Info below:
http://www.circuitcity.com/detail.jsp?c=1&b=g&qp=0&bookmark=bookmark_0&oid=80191&catoid=-9712

I would really like to keep the antenna up in the attic (normal shingle roof), however I know this is not the best place for it. Don't really care about the price of the antenna. Opening up into the attic is 29" x 22", so I can get something decent up there I'd say.

Here is the results of putting in my information into antennaweb:

* yellow WBDT-DT 18 WB Springfield OH Now Live 355°
* yellow WPTO-DT 28 PBS Oxford OH FCC Extension 279°
* yellow WXIX-DT 29 FOX Newport KY Now Live 221°
* yellow WRGT-DT 30 FOX Dayton OH Now Live 355°
* yellow WKRC-DT 31 CBS Cincinnati OH Now Live 217°
* yellow WLWT-DT 35 NBC Cincinnati OH Now Live 219°
* yellow WHIO-DT 41 CBS Dayton OH Now Live 357°
* yellow WDTN-DT 50 ABC Dayton OH Now Live 355°
* yellow WKEF-DT 51 NBC Dayton OH Now Live 355°
* yellow WPTD-DT 58 PBS Dayton OH Now Live 356°
* green WCPO-DT 10 ABC Cincinnati OH Now Live 218°
* green WSTR-DT 33 WB Cincinnati OH Now Live 226°
* green WCET-DT 34 PBS Cincinnati OH Now Live 219°
lt green WHIO 7 CBS Dayton OH 357°
lt green WPTD 16 PBS Dayton OH 356°
lt green WKEF 22 NBC Dayton OH 354°
lt green WBDT 26 WB Springfield OH 355°
* lt green WKOI-DT 39 TBN Richmond IN Now Live 279°
lt green WKOI 43 TBN Richmond IN 279°
lt green WRGT 45 FOX Dayton OH 355°
lt green WSTR 64 WB Cincinnati OH 226°
blue WDTN 2 ABC Dayton OH 355°
blue WLWT 5 NBC Cincinnati OH 219°
blue WCPO 9 ABC Cincinnati OH 218°
blue WKRC 12 CBS Cincinnati OH 217°
* blue WSYX-DT 13 ABC Columbus OH Now Live 69°
blue WPTO 14 PBS Oxford OH 278°
* blue WCMH-DT 14 NBC Columbus OH Now Live 68°
blue WXIX 19 FOX Newport KY 221°
* blue WBNS-DT 21 CBS Columbus OH Now Live 68°
* blue WCVN-DT 24 PBS Covington KY Now Live 213°
* blue WTTE-DT 36 FOX Columbus OH Now Live 69°
* blue WWHO-DT 46 UPN Chillicothe OH Now Live 89°
blue WCET 48 PBS Cincinnati OH 219°
violet WSYX 6 ABC Columbus OH 69°
violet WBQC-CA 25 UPN Cincinnati OH 218°
violet WOTH-LP 39 IND Cincinnati OH 218°
violet WRCX-LP 40 IND Dayton OH 355°
violet WWRD-LP 55 FMN Centerville OH 33°
violet W61DE 61 TBN Cincinnati OH 225°

Suggestions on what to try?

Thanks!

I'm about same distance from Dayton(12~14 Miles)/Cincy/N KY(27~39 Miles) towers as you are, and can get decent reception of the stations on your list in Yellow and green(except WSTR-DT) With a .99 cent UHF bowtie(Folded dipole - wire in shape of a bowtie - like used to come with small TV's) antenna+rabbit ears for VHF with antenna placed in 2nd story window that faces the towers(NE/E window for Dayton, S window for Cincy).

I get much better reception from the antenna setup in pic attached below. In this pic, top antenna aimed towards Cincy, bottom 2 antennas towards Dayton -- Antennas are on seperate feedlines, with A/B switch near receiver(on DTC-100 receiver use the A/B switch on remote), Works great :

My God, INHD on TWC has been a turd lately, flickering and pixellated like mad. I always wonder if it's my HD box, my set, or the signal.

Question for you guys: I have the Pioneer 3500 box from Time Warner. When I try to watch non-HD stuff, I often get a flickering picture or nothing at all--a blue screen. I usually get a message on my Mits about NO PIP FORMAT AVAILABLE or some such. Any TWC users having any weirdness with their boxes? I wonder if I need to swap this thing out.

J

I haven't been watching INHD a lot lately, but I haven't noticed any problems with the signal when I have been.

My TWC box is the Scientific Atlanta Explorer 3100HD.

Howdy all. I'm an A/V installer in the area. I work for a local company that's about to open an extemely high-end audio video store in the South Dixie-Dorothy Lane area. Were talking DLP rear projection TV's to Theil audio to SIM Audio amps.
Anyways, I've "dealt" with several pioneer 3500's. In the settings menu, push the yellow "A" button. Under "output" select 720p. This eliminated the flickering on the Zenith RP I was working with. The default is 1080i, but a lot of TVs work better with the 720p. It seems TWC's techs have minimal knowledge on the subject. It worked for my situation, maybe it will for you.
By the way, from what I've seen the pioneer 3500 is far better than the SA 3100. On a 16x9 TV the SA will give black bars for 4:3 programmming. The pioneer will let choose how you want to watch 4:3. Zoom Stretch or black bars. For 4:3 tv's you gotta have the pioneer. The SA will give a shrunken image if watching thru component output. I personally will be asking for the pioneer in a few months when channels 2 and 7 get on twc.

So you're saying go 720P even if my Mits can't do anything with it?

J

Welcome, Ryan!

When will you be opening the new store? I work right down the street from you. I'm too much of a cheapskate to buy anything that high-end but it will be fun to see what's available. Will you be offering ISF services?

Paul

FYI,

There's a new HD "milestone" happening tonight, When UPN and some UPN affiliates present "Enterprise" and "Jake 2.0" in HD.

For those of you who can receive the Columbus stations, WWHO-DT 46, UPN/WB HD Columbus/Chillocothe is scheduled to have Enterprise+ Jake 2.0 from 8~10pm in HD tonight, with Smallville in HD from WB at 10pm :

http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/forum/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=15&TopicID=329&PagePosition=1

Hi. It looks like a couple of weeks out. We've had some problems getting things in. There's sooo much to do to get a show room ready. I don't even know what ISF is although I assume its some sort of calibration technique. I don't think we'll be doing that. We're right next to Quiznos which is next to Baja Fresh which is open now. On that 720p issue, I'm just saying try it, it worked for me.

FYI,

Talked to Jim Atkinson At WDTN-DT today, he said he'll be looking at the issue concerning what looks to me like a couple of dropped frames/etc. during ABC HD that is occuring every now and then. Well, at least I'm seeing it, as are evidently some others since around the time they came back up after their Tube Failure/Telstar 4 Failure/etc.

Jeff,

I notice the same thing I just thought it was my equipment. Thanks for bring this out as I just assumed my HD100 was having problems. It appears as a "flash" every once in a while which was not there prior to their tube ect. problems.

Thanks,
John

I keep seeing that blip on WDTN-DT also. It's annoying. I thought it was subliminal advertising! It's very fast but I could swear I saw something for "The Practice".

On that 720p issue, I'm just saying try it, it worked for me.

Doesn't work on my Mits because it cannot accept a 720p signal. In fact, I don't think Mitsubishi makes a set that accepts 720p. If you do try this, you'll have to connect your cable box via s-video or composite to be able to get into the setting menu and change the output back to a format your set can handle.

BTW, Ryan--is your store the Home Theater Factory? We may have chatted in the past. Are you actually going to stock most of these items? The gentlemen I spoke with was going to have to order the products and most of the prices quoted were higher than what I could get the products for by ordering them myself.

E

Originally posted by Paul210
I keep seeing that blip on WDTN-DT also. It's annoying. I thought it was subliminal advertising! It's very fast but I could swear I saw something for "The Practice".

You know, for some reason it hasn't generally bothered me enough usually to switch to WCPO-DT, because of the DD5.1. and LOL! I've seen frames of video from other stuff when the blip happens as well. I'm thinking it's something that is stuck in a buffer somewhere, and since I have seen this sort of thing before in other circumstances, was thinking it was probably a buffer in my receiver.

This isn't related to HD, but it's the best place I know to ask it.

On WRGT Fox 45, do any of you notice a faint horizontal "crease" in the picture about 1/8 of the way up from the bottom? It extends the entire width of the picture. It's there ALL the time, on all of my TV's (different brands), on cable and OTA. It doesn't really bother me, but I am curious as to what is causing it.

Gindie,

Yep, the Fox bug makes it even more noticable. All the way across. It's on the analog and digital station.

Oftentimes also, usually In the Afternoon and morning Hours I've noticed there is also herringbone -- For a long time, I thought it was something interfering with my Fox 45 reception, but it's in the Digital too, so it has to be some FM signal getting into their equipment before the transmitter and encoder/etc.

Which all makes it pretty easy to see we're getting the same NTSC video(just converted to ATSC) via the digital station as we do the analog.

----------------------

Update: Oh yes, haven't had a lot of time to watch, and have been Flipping between Fox Widescreen for World series From WXIX-DT cincy and other programming while recording various programming mostly from the Cincy stations, but I Have noticed the last couple of nights the "blips"/occasional dropped frames during ABC HD from WDTN-DT seems to be fixed, at least I'm not seeing it anymore on my receivers when I've been looking :)

Is anyone here with HD through TWC getting a blank screen on the INHD2 channel?? My INHD and all other HD channels are fine.

Last night INHD2 on TWC was showing a blank screen for me too...

This may have been asked before, does anybody know the bitrate for WHIO-DT CSI looks terrible tonight, lots of motion artifacts. I noticed it on the weekly college games as-well.

Parrot,

I've asked WHIO-DT a few times how much bandwidth they are allocating to HD(and asked them to give HD more bandwidth), but I haven't received an answer. It isn't enough, that's for sure. I'm guessing about 14~15mb/s. WKRC-DT Cincy has the same problem, though to my eyes motion artifacts aren't quite as bad on WKRC-DT as they are on WHIO-DT. A WKRC-DT Engineer told me they're giving HD 15 mb/s.

WBNS-DT CBS Columbus on the other hand looks beautiful(when I can see them) no problems with Compression artifacts even during HD football. I believe they allocate the entire bandwidth possible to HD via ATSC+6 MHZ RF Bandwidth(19.39Mb/s usuable data rate), Audio+PSIP uses 1Mb or so, which leaves a little over 18mb/s available for HD if a station isn't muliticasting or Datacasting using anything except oppurtunistic bandwidth.

Oh, I noticed when I'd checked that WHIO-DT was missing CBS HD last night until sometime after 10, and WKEF-DT missed HD for "Coupling" at 9:30, but had HD for ER. HD from Cincy stations was fine at those times. Just did quick checks though, as I was enjoying World Series in Fox Widescreen from WXIX-DT Cincy.

Jeff..
Check me on this one, but I'm getting an audio sync problem on WKEF-DT, but not on WLWT-DT.

Doc

Doc,

Just got to it at 10:58pm(probably too late) ... at which time A/V synch is fine from both stations here ... 51-1 must still be with the "HD feed"/SD upconverts by NBC, as 51.1 in Blank screen mode at 11pm, 51-2 local news. Which is cool, at least this way they won't miss the switch to Leno :-)

I did do a real quick check for "Miss Match" HD sometime between 9+10pm ... probably didn't pay enough attention to A/V synch issues though, but all seemed fine.

Oh, BTW - In that "DTV field test document" I provided a link to in the Cincy thread -- There's another part to it(slides), which does show the results of their WKRC-DT tests, which isn't mentioned much in the text document -- The slides with the WKRC-DT test info included is here :

http://www.atscforum.org/doc/BTS99-slides.pdf

I have a question...

During the World Series I was able to pick up WTTE Fox. But now I can't lock on. Does anyone know if they turned down the power after the World Series?(I don't know if I was able to pick it up BEFORE the Series)

I'm helping a friend out, I have D* so I don't know. How many different HD STB does TWC offer. He currently has the Sci. Atlanta HD3100. Here are my problems.

I would like a box with the Fiber "Audio out"(Toshlink). Also noticed that when we are watching the HD channels the info & guide button only muted the volume? Last, does this box have a menu for setting the display type? ie 4x3, 16x9.

Jambino,

Depending upon your distance from Columbus, it might have just been the band conditions via a little tropo scatter --- Basically, this can occur via signals "bouncing" off the atmosphere, which sometimes occurs during temp inversions. This extends the normal range(usually limited by curvature of earth) of signals on VHF/UHF frequencies.

Anyhow, I haven't heard anything concerning WTTE-DT 36 increasing power, although I suppose anything is possible. They have a 11KW ERP STA currently listed on FCC site. When I sent them a reception report when I received them a couple of nights via tropo back in June, at that time one of their Engineers had said they were running 8KW ERP. Of all the Columbus digitals, I see them least often here. I did get to watch part of the Bengals game on Sunday on their Analog station, WTTE 28, but conditions weren't good enough to see more than just a few plays.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to check out the local stations forum area at http://www.hdcolumbus.org , as there is usually good info there on the Columbus stations.

Depending upon your location,(especially if your South of I-70), you also might be able to get WXIX-DT 29(19-1 remap) Fox Cincinnati, which not only broadcasts Fox Widescreen, but also upconverts to 1080i for broadcast.

Thanks Nitewatchman.... Thats funny you mentioned the Bengals, because that was the reason I was trying to pick it up(stupid NFL blackout rules). It eventually came in around the 3rd quarter and I got to watch the rest of the game.

I do live south of I-70 (about 2 miles) but I've never tried to pick up WXIX. I wish WGRT Fox Dayton would just go widescreen. But I guess I can't complain considering all the other major stations are HD.

Nitewatchman,

antennaweb.org shows WSTR-DT live in Ciny, but I can't seem to pick it up. I can get all Ciny locals but WCPO-DT (I only have an UHF antenna) I know your active on that thread, is this up and running?. Thanks for your help.

Hi folks.

FYI, Charles Cole at ThinkTV just posted some interesting info in the following post on the Cincy thread concerning THINKDTV/PBS/HD issues involving WPTD-DT Dayton and not yet on air WPTO-DT, which will be broadcasting from WXIX tower in Cincy when they do come on the air.
You might want to check it out if you're not subscribed to Cincy thread, as among other things, it sounds like we'll getting more HD from WPTD-DT PBS Dayton come January :-) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2896936#post2896936

----------

parrot1,

Yes, WSTR-DT 33 has been up and running 24/7 Since Dec. 2002. They are running a Low Power STA(18KW ERP) however, which might be why you aren't seeing them. I get them just fine here, and If I remember right, Paul up near Brookville gets them too with a rooftop, hi-gain antenna. They unfortunetly don't do WB HD as of yet though, it's 480i 4x3 SD only, just like WB Dayton, WBDT-DT 18.

Parrot,
I have good elevation and a big ol' antenna up here near Englewood. I get WSTR-DT with a solid single bar on my receiver's meter if the antenna is aimed exactly at them. It's amazing I can even get a lock. So don't be too distraught if you can't receive them.

Paul

I guess the wired thing is, on my SIR-TS160 When I enter Ciny as my secondary city it automaticly updates my channel guide with all the Cincinnati locals but WSTR-DT. I'd love to get those UK games even in 4x3. Thanks for the info.

Any luck with the analog station WSTR 64? If you can get that one in without a lot of snow, I'd say you'd have a shot at the digital, or, if it's watchable enough, I suppose you could watch the analog station for the U.K. Games. If it's watchable enough though, you'd probably be able to get the digital station too.

As Paul said though, depending upon your location, you might not want to put too much effort into it, as, especially if you have terrain issues as the high-frequency of channel 64 for the analog, and Low power for their digital on 33 might make it especially difficult for you.

Also, if you can do it with your receiver, I suppose you could try manually tuning the receiver to RF channel 33 and see if you get any sort of reading from them on your receiver's signal quality meter.

They at least USED to have a Low Power(very very low power with a directional antenna pattern that definetly doesn't favor my direction, but should cover city of Dayton) analog translator station on channel 66(W66AQ) in Dayton -- It's still licensed according to FCC info, and transmitter should be at the Dayton antenna farm with the rest of the Dayton TV stations(except WWRD-LP 55, tower near bellbrook) ... I'm not sure, but I don't think the LP translator on 66 is "really" on the air though.

A bit of trivia, but In the early 80's, they offered a scrambled, "hbo-like" movie service OTA called ONTV (at that time, WSTR 64 call signs were WBTI, then they were later WIII -- The "eyes of Cincinnati!), with a certian amount of the day offering unscrambled programming for public service obligations. By the mid-80's it had "detiroarated" into all porn programming(some things were "visable" on a regular TV, although distorted), and soon went belly up. The rapid profileration of cable service+sat(BUD mostly) at the time probably didn't help their subscriber numbers any. Also, it was possible to legally obtain a "kit descrambler" which one could build themsleves, and that probably didn't help them much either.

I think the ONTV service was probably why they needed/used the channel 66 translator to help cover Dayton, as their old tower/power of analog 64 wasn't what it is now. The analog on 64 is now a full power 5000KW ERP station, and the tower is about 5 miles north of the other Dayton Towers(it's easily visable from I-75, it's an "artistic looking" "Star tower" which went up in early 90's) - although, again, given the high frequenecy involved, it still makes it difficult for them to cover a large area and be easily receivable, especially when serious terrain issues are involved.

Anyhow, way back then, if you wanted their subscription service, you rented a box from them, and they installed a Blonder-Tongue antenna cut for channel 64(or 66) on your roof. I still see a few of those antennas on roofs in the area(they are fairly small, and are just yagi's with no corner reflector on back), and they probably still work quite well on hi-UHF channels, if the feedline hasn't deterioated too much.

On the UK games, yeah. They haven't seemed to have had as many the past couple of years on WSTR, (WBQC 25, UPN Cincy(a fairly Low power analog station which should be increasing power and moving to channel 38 soon) has had some of them in past few years too though), but WSTR used to have about all of them -- Maybe WSTR will have more UK games again this year, as I did notice they had that exhibition game the other night.

Anyhow, Since WSTR had that game the other night, maybe they'll do it again this year.

Enough blabbering about History and analog stations and such,

Thanks for the info. I live off stroop, in Miami Township. I can pickup the analog channel with snow. Currently have a RadioShack U-75R (works much better than the CM3018 I bought @ Lowes $21vs$90?) I bought a CM pre-amp, but didn't noticed a signifcat increase in reception. User error I'm sure. I'm using a diplexer inside & out, that may be my problem.

I'm not sure what portions of Stroop are in Miami Twp, and exact location is very important when looking at this, but I looked at the West End of Stroop Rd. and there are definitely some low spots which would likely be a problem for Cincy. Anything East of Southern BLVD(unless your quite a bit aways from stroop and down in a dip) though should be a good spot. WSTR tower(approx 37~38 miles from you) is actually a few miles closer to you than the rest of the Cincy towers(41~43 miles for most, 48 miles for WCVN/KET), and WSTR tower is actually the highest in Cincy, so, if the terrain issues aren't too serious, you should have a shot at it at least.

U-75R seems like a good choice for UHF for you -- while there Higher gain, more directional antennas(such as CM4228, CM4248/etc.) which would probably offer some improvement, it probably wouldn't be a drastic improvement.

Also, Since it looks like your only only a few miles from Dayton Towers, "preamp overload", and maybe even tuner overload issues are probably a big issue, or potential issue for you. However, since for best results you should be aiming antenna WNW for Dayton Stations, and SSW for Cincinnati(around or over a 100 degree spread), hopefully the antenna will reject enough of the signal off the side from the Dayton Stations to keep the overload problems down. You probably already know this, but For best results for Cincy, you'd defintely want to aim antenna right at Cincinnati towers.

On the preamp, assuming you are using a "mast mount" preamp(which is what you'd likely want to use), the preamp goes on the mast, as close to antenna as possible, and if you're using a diplexer, the power inserter for preamp needs to go between antenna and first diplexer, which of course won't work, as you can't put power inserter outside. Really though, If you want to get "best results", I'd recommend NOT using the diplexor and running a seperate feedline completely for the antenna run, then the power inserter for amp can go inside, next to the TV, or in the attic or whatever(any signal split has to be after the preamp, though).

Given your proximity to Dayton Towers though, I think its quite likely the preamp will cause more problems than it solves. Might take quite a bit of experimenting to find the best "balance", and if there's a preamp that might help you more than it hurts, you'll still probably have to find a preamp that's not TOO high gain. Also, using a variable attenuator along with the preamp might be benficial too.

Hope this helps and good luck,

Does anyone have any information about when Time Warner and the local Dayton ABC & CBS affiliates will finally get together on carrying the HD feed? I'm impatient. :)

Me too! Where is TWC with the locals ???

Had to call WDTN last night and ask them for MNF in HD. I don't know if it was dumb luck or if they really did relay my message, but within 3 or 4 minutes, voila!

Good man Paul! For the most part, they've done such a good job of providing HD except for around the time when Telstar 4 failed that I was a bit surprised when I noticed that the "Brittney Spears" thing and beginning of MNF wasn't HD on WDTN-DT last night but the ABC HD was fine on WCPO-DT.

Does anyone else have a problem connecting DVI on TWC box Pioneer 3510HD? I'm connecting to Panasonic TH-50PHD6UY plasma DVI card and the Pioneer error message basically says my Panny is not HDTV. It is HD and HDCP compliant. I have read other threads with users in other parts of the country having this problem and it seems to be a Pioneer software problem for them. But no posts from Dayton area. Using component until I resolve. Appreciate any ideas.

I have the box, but haven't used the DVI port on it yet. I don't have a DVI cable handy, either, so I can't test it, but I'd be interested in your efforts. Since I have a CRT HDTV, from all I have read the benefit is slim to none, unless someone else has better info....?

I just wish we'd get more locals, or ESPN-HD, or something more. As I said previously, I'm greedy for HD. :)

My Pioneer box is going back to TWC this week. I'm tired of waiting. I'm going to investigate other options.

J

Sorry, Can't help but I have read post on other Threads that some Cable Co. don't activate the DVI port on the STB.

Good Late night PBS HD News!

Just noticed that beginning 1/1/04 at midnight, WPTD-DT(Think16 HD) has PBS HD/widescreen Scheduled M-F from 8PM-6AM, 6pm-6am on sat/Sun!

Titan TV lists this game as HiDef, but WHIO is not showing it. I called the station and a lady said she will look into it. Does anyone else want to call them and ask? Whats the best source to tell if a show is going to be in Hi Def?

-Bruce

Usually, my best source is to switch to WKRC-DT and see if they have it in HD. Problem solved! :) Titan TV is hit or miss. I don't know of a reliable source but maybe Nitewatchman has some ideas.

Do NOT, I repeat, do NOT consult TitanTV for HD information. For info. on sports (especially) and other HD events, consult the "HD Programming" section of AVS Forum and look at the stuck topics at the top.

Ken H. the moderator of that area goes to great effort to keep that info. up to date. The fact is that the ONLY bowl game to be broadcast in HD this year will be the Sugar Bowl on Sunday, by ABC.

A bit OT, but just noticed WRCX-LP 40 Dayton(analog) has Finally made it back to the airwaves ... They were displaced off Channel 51 by WKEF-DT in Feb 02 ...

WRCX=LP ran a Cleveland Cavs gane a couple of nights ago. Wonder where schedule info can be found.

The HD playoff games were great on ABC yesterday! I finally got a RCA ATSC11 OTA receiver from Rex. Flipping over to compare TWC and non HD WDTN (no HD ABC on cable) and then back to OTA HD confirmed the investment was worthwhile. HD football is stunning!
Getting ChannelMaster 4228A antenna this week which hopefully will receive Cinci stations. Trying attic first.
Thanks Nitewatchman for your past help.

Originally posted by voyager6
WRCX=LP ran a Cleveland Cavs gane a couple of nights ago. Wonder where schedule info can be found.

I haven't been able to get into WRCX's website for quite a while, but http://www.titantv.com has listings for WRCX ..

"Channels" Guide in Middletown Journal also shows it, so I'd think DDN's TV guide probably would too.

I had wondered where they were and just thought that I wasn't able to pick them up. Caught the Ch. 40 signal the other day, it's weak but viewable in my location (far end of Fairborn ~15 miles from the Dayton TV tower farm).
Signal quality is just about that of WWRD-LP 55.

In Huber Heights, I get Ch 55 very clean, Ch 40 started out weak, but appears to be a little clearer and viewable over a wider angle. Of course the rain probably affected that judgement.

Has anyone heard any more rumblings on the status of HD coming to WBDT-DT 18? What about WRGT-DT 30? For right now, they seem to just be repeating the analog (judging by the telltale stripe at the bottom of the picture), but with FOX wanting to go HD in the fall I sure would like to have them up in time for football.

Kudos to WDTN for ditching the flood watch bug to give us the wild card games in HD.

Does anyone with TWC have problems with Video/Audio dropouts while watching NBC (WKEF) HD?

While I'm watching WKEF HD through TWC, the video and audio will drop out for about 1 or 2 seconds then come back on. It happens regularly, probably 6 times in an hour.

The strange thing is, it has NEVER happened while I'm watching the other HD channels (INHD, INHD2, Discovery HD). I'll watch those channels for 2 hours straight and no problem.

Anyone else having this?

Vader...

I have the same issue from time to time with WKEF, but it's usually once an hour. Also like you...I don't have the problems with the other HD channels. I assume it's caused by WKEF?

Yes, I've seen it too OTA. I think it's an issue that is occuring at WKEF-DT ... Doesn't happen OTA on their SD subchannel, 51-2 ... Sometimes, it's a short Pause when the pic is frozen on the screen, but the audio continues as normal. It's happened every now and then with the NBC HD feed(never with NTSC SD, or local/syndicated programming) All along, since they came on air in Feb 02. Never seen it happen with NBC HD via WLWT-DT, NBC Cincinnati.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Has anyone heard any more rumblings on the status of HD coming to WBDT-DT 18? What about WRGT-DT 30? For right now, they seem to just be repeating the analog (judging by the telltale stripe at the bottom of the picture), but with FOX wanting to go HD in the fall I sure would like to have them up in time for football.

Kudos to WDTN for ditching the flood watch bug to give us the wild card games in HD.

Yes, way to go WDTN-DT! They really do a fine job with providing ABC HD, and have from the time they came on the air .. and in DD 5.1 to boot! The ONLY Commercial broadcaster in Dayton or cincy to have DD 5.1 at present .... I'm Still getting the occasional "almost" like loss of V synch/almost like losing a frame of video but not quiteor whatever you want to call it thing from them during ABC HD every now and then ....

Concerning WBDT-DT Haven't heard anything new ... The Good news is, I believe they ARE planning on doing WB HD, which is more than I can say about the Cincinnati station(Owned by sinclair) -- At least AFAIK at this point. Last I talked to WBDT folks in Late September as I had posted previously, The response from WBDT-DT was:

"We do plan to broadcast in High Definition in the future and we are working on that timetable. We appreciate you as viewer of Dayton's WB, Thanks"
Al Schmidt
Chief Engineer

I'd certianly encourage everyone to drop them a note or give them a call and let them know we are watching their digital station, and waiting for WB HD .... Contact info can be found here:

http://www.wb26tv.com/StationInfo/index.asp

As for WRGT-DT and Fox widescreen.... Although WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT engineering has been great about answering when Technical issues(or HD issues with WKEF-DT) are involved, I've asked them(and Sincliar, who operates WRGT under LMA) several times, and I've never really gotten a response, except for an early response from someone there who, when asked why they aren't doing Fox widescreen answered, "Because there is no reason to" ... Of course, I think there is a reason, although I don't see much benifit in WRGT-DT being on the air presently, as the Video looks just as bad as it does on the analog station, especially during "Good Day live" with all the interference, and Fox Feed with the crease on the Screen ... It looks like just Composite NTSC video, with none of the ATSC Quality improvements(except the improved reception, that is)

I did notice that Sinclair shows WRGT-DT as being "HD Ready" on their website ( here: http://www.sbgi.net/business/markets/dayton.shtml )---- So, hopefully they Will have HD from Fox when it starts happening, which I think is probably going to be Next Fall.

Anyhow, by all means, everyone drop them a note and let them know we are waiting for Fox Widescreen(and Fox HD when available) from them. From what I've seen, If we don't tell them we are out here watching(sometimes it seems we constantly need to remind them), they get the idea there are only "7 of us" out here. Contact info for WKEF/WRGT is here : Besides calling them, The "technical issues" email seems to work well :

http://www.nbc22.com/feedback/index.htm

Did we ever get an answer from WDTN on why there is a blip every 15 seconds or so with the video on their HD programming? I swear it's subliminal advertising! Maybe we did but I'm too lazy to scroll back through 29 pages to find out. Anyway, it's still there.

Paul

Paul,

That's a better way of describing it, as a "blip", I'm sure we are talking about the same thing ... Don't think we did find out what was going on ... Jim at WDTN-DT had said he'd look into it, but I'm not sure what he found out. I just sent him a message, I'll post if I find out anything.

I've seen that as well. I'm not sure if it's a glitch in their encoder, but it looks like an old frame flashes up during that time.

Thanks for the contact information, I'll be sending some emails out to ask about HD from WRGT and WBDT. I'd also like to nicely ask WHIO to pleeeeease lose the SD simulcast during CBS HD, as the pixelation makes football look terrible! (Maybe I should mention that I'm trying to rig up a way to pull in WBNS-DT....)

Yeah, I sometimes see the Old frame that looks like it was held in a buffer in my receiver too.

If you get through to WHIO, let us know how you did it! I've sent several messages on the very issue you mention to the ONLY email address listed on their site, but haven't received a response. I have called their Newsroom when they've missed HD(which doesn't happen very often), one time, I believe the guy in the control room actually answered the Newroom phone ...

FWIW, I have seen WBNS-DT occasionally(during SEC HD football once) when conditions are good enough(getting through the "mess" from adjacent channel WKEF 22 in nearly the same direction is an issue from my location), and it's night and day ... Absolutely beautiful on WBNS-DT, certianly no problems with compression artifacts on WBNS-DT, which I believe is allocating the full 19.39mp/s to 1080i HD(+Audio+PSIP of course) which is as it SHOULD be, of course, there's a reason which we are aware of why ATSC recommended that 1080i Needed the entire bandwidth available in a 6MHZ RF channel when ATSC is used ... ..

Originally posted by Vader
Does anyone with TWC have problems with Video/Audio dropouts while watching NBC (WKEF) HD?

While I'm watching WKEF HD through TWC, the video and audio will drop out for about 1 or 2 seconds then come back on. It happens regularly, probably 6 times in an hour.

The strange thing is, it has NEVER happened while I'm watching the other HD channels (INHD, INHD2, Discovery HD). I'll watch those channels for 2 hours straight and no problem.

Anyone else having this?

Yes, I have TWC and get this same dropout about every 10 minutes. Does anyone else get this OTA?

I'm just east of Fairborn so I don't have the problem of having to shoot around WKEF to point at Columbus. However, I'm going to have to go to a better antenna setup before I can pick up anything outside of the Dayton stations.

I do know someone who works at WHIO on the radio side so I'm hoping maybe he can get me in touch with a TV person there.
I did send emails to WBDT and WKEF/WRGT to let them know I'm picking them up via DTV and ask about timetables for Fox/WB HD capability. I'll also be emailing WDTN, mentioning the frame bug in passing but mostly praise for their great job of carrying the HD banner in Dayton.

I do get WKEF-DT OTA, and I seem to remember dropouts during Leno on occasion. I'll have to check again and see if I'm seeing the same thing.

No reply from any of the stations I emailed yet.

As far as what Nitewatchman mentioned about getting through to WHIO TV, it sounds like they are getting lower and lower budget around that place. I saw posted elsewhere that they did the better part of an 11pm newscast with no video, just a black screen. The WHIO AM radio station sure has been laying people off left and right. I wonder if there is anyone home at the TV station or if they're all asleep at the switch.

I noticed the audio / video drop outs watching wkef on tw tonight. A few times the screen completley froze with no video. There were also a couple of times where the volume level seemed to fluctuate.

I have notice audio breakup on WHIO-DT(OTA) the last several weeks (again Jan 12, 2004. All other channels appear to be OK.
I have a Zenith HV420 reciever.
Anyone else in Noth Dayton experience this?

I'm Not in North Dayton, But I've noticed WHIO-DT audio has at certian times been choppy and over-compressed sounding the past few weeks(seems like it's been more like a month or more, actually) or so on either HDV420 or DTC-100 receiver.

Also Keep in mind, When DTV reception problems occur, both Video and Audio go out, it isn't one or the other ...(Of course, Audio+video can go and it doesn't necessarily mean its a reception problem -- Could be the station's STL/etc) ... Signal Quality meters such as the one on the HDV420 can be somewhat helpful in diagnosing "real" reception related dropouts ...

For those seeing glitching on WKEF, I've been noticing it too viewing OTA. What I was getting sounds a little different than what the cable viewers are reporting here. What I saw was that the video would freeze for several seconds but the audio would keep going during that time. It didn't happen at first, but occurred two or three times near the end of the show.

I noticed the audio thing on WHIO too....it seemed to be really "sucking up" the crowd noise on football to the foreground unless that is the way the CBS engineers on-site were mixing the game. Announcers or the sound effects in the dissolve to replay would push the audio levels down, then it would suck up again like an AGC ramp-up kind of thing.
I'm sensitive to sound mix and AGC effects from setting up processing for radio, but I generally don't notice too much on TV since I'm more interested in the visuals.

That's the way CBS does the football games. Sometimes it's a challenge to hear what the announcers are saying at all because they mix the crowd noise in at a very high level, but most of the time, who cares?! :)

Okay, so it's a network issue with the sound on football. I don't mind too much about the announcers getting drowned out since I don't care for many of the CBS ones anyway, especially Gumbel.

I just wish WHIO would fix the picture quality issue. I'm hoping that I can get WBNS once I reconfigure my antenna system.

1450Khz,

You know, you might have some luck with Cincy stations too .. From your "approximate" location(I used a spot between Fairborn and Yellow Springs -- ~Greene Co. Country Club) , I show both Columbus and Cincy Towers about 54~57 miles distant ...

Although, CBS Cincy(WKRC-DT 31) uses 4mb/s of it's bandwidth(not just oppurtunistic bandwidth, either) for it's webhopper internet acceleration service, so pixelization during demanding HD is a problem there too .. A tad better than WHIO though, And WXIX-DT Fox Cincy Does do Fox widescreen(when they are actually on the air that is .....) ...

Anyhow, I lived in Fairborn for a time(across from the Bowling alley(if its still there) on N. Broad) in the mid-80's when I was going to school at WSU, and when you say you are just east of Fairborn, I'm hoping that hill just East of portions of Black Ln. isn't a problem for you Columbus reception wise ..

I'm a little farther south than Black Lane. I'm off Dayton-Yellow Springs road.

I show the Cincy stations at about 55 miles, and the Columbus stations at 52 miles. I might have a shot at Cincy. I'm able to get a fuzzy version of WCET and WXIX on analog using a crappy (Terk) antenna in my attic. I've gotten a teeny bit of WLWT-DT but never enough to get a lock.

I'm thinking of trying the Channel Master 4221 or yagi with a 7777 preamp.

Side note: I see that WPTD is now sending the program guide again.

1450khz,

I live in Huber Heights between 202 and 201 just North of I-70 and get most of the Columbus digitals including WBNS. WTTE 28-1 is the only Columbus digital that I can only get under special weather conditions until they increase their power. WSJF-DT CH24 is too far to hope to receive from my location (77 miles). All the Cincy stations are about 57 miles and the Columbus stations are 59 miles from my location.

I have a CM4228 8 Bay antenna and a CM7777 amp on a tower about 40' up.

There are problems for me with CH 22 and WBNS-DT (Ch 21) being on adjacent channels. When I first set up, I had frequent dropout/pixelization problems duing the day with the signal level as indicated by my receiver fluctuating. It could mostly be tuned out during the night with careful pointing of the antenna via rotor, but during day time the natural backgound noise increase due to the Sun lowered the S/N ratio enough to cause the adjacent channel interference to show up much worse.

I have mostly solved this with a CM jointenna for channel 22. This knocks down the signal for CH 21, but the relative amount is enough to allow a solid picture on WBNS-DT whenever they are on the air.

For me and most Daytonians, the Columbus digitals are harder to get than Cincinnati because the terrain between Dayton and Cincinnati is flatter and they have taller transmitting antennas in Cincy than Columbus. I am at 1000' above sea level. There is a 1200' hump running North/South about half way between Dayton and Columbus, centered at South Vienna and I-70. This rise mid-way significantly cuts into the line of sight that UHF requires for solid reception. Currently, all the Columbus analogs are pretty snowy except CH 53, which transmits at 5 MW and has a tall antenna and is South of Columbus, where the rise is down to about 1100'. I currently am in the process of upgrading to a monster VHF ultra deep fringe antenna that will get me acceptable analogs for Chs 4 and 10 and marginal reception for CH 6. Ch 6 is the weakest analog for me, followed by CH 28.
Strangely enough, WSYX-DT CH-13 is the strongest (from my receiver's signal quality perspective) of all the Columbus digitals.

So in conclusion, Columbus is hard to get from Dayton and it may take extreme measures to get them. At this range, every mile closer helps, so you at least have that on your side.

Greg

So in conclusion, Columbus is hard to get from Dayton and it may take extreme measures to get them. At this range, every mile closer helps, so you at least have that on your side.

Good point. I always wondered why Columbus was hard to pick up (I remember trying to get analog 10 to get a Browns game one time and had no luck.) When I was living in a higher spot I could usually get 99.7 WBZX FM on my radio by nulling out 99.9, but I imagine that "ridge" between Dayton and Columbus does put the kibosh on a lot of TV reception, UHF band in particular, unless a tower is used.

Cincy would be fine, particularly WXIX (when it's working). Given the stories about Sinclair and HDTV, I'm not getting my hopes too high about WRGT being ready for HD when Fox goes 720p in the fall.

Attached is an elevation profile From WSYX/WTTE Tower(on Right) to Intersection of SR 235 and Dayton-Yellow Srpings road(On left) -- Used WSYX-DT 13's antenna height(1715FT ASL) for the "blue stick" which I drew in on Right ... Keep in mind, this Doesn't take into account curvature of earth, so the situation is a bit worse than this ... For his specific location, Hard to say how much that rise to ~1200FT would be an issue, the exact antenna heights(and frequency of operation) for each station involved might come into play -- Although I'd say he's got a good shot at it, given a decent outdoor antenna --- 1st adjacent WKEF 22 might be more of an issue for him than in Voyager 6's case though, since antennas generally don't have as good of a F/B ratio ...as what they can reject "off the side". Also, Some Terrain nearer to his location might actually be more of an issue, considering the distance involved ... Of course, this is "squeezing" 51 miles of terrain into a few inches, it actually "looks" a lot flatter than this ....

Thanks for that terrain data! How do you generate those?

1450KHZ,

I used Delorme's Topo USA (WSYX tower info from FCC CDBS info) ... Actually bought it for Hiking/orienteering purposes, but it works nicely for this too ... Fun to play with anyway ... Radiosoft has a package that does detailed Longely-Rice propagation studies w/terrain data/etc, but I believe it's quite expensive.

Originally posted by voyager6
............ WSJF-DT CH24 is too far to hope to receive from my location (77 miles).....
.... Ch 6 is the weakest analog for me,

I think WSFJ-DT 24(Newark) is using a Mouse on a wheel to power a generator for their transmitter ... Current FCC data shows they are running a 916 WATT ERP STA ... Didn't look to see if they were using a directional antenna pattern ...

Anyhow, WSYX 6 used to have seemed to throw a bit more signal to the West, however, earlier this year, they made some tower modifications in order to also accomodate WSYX-DT/WTTE-DT/WTTE antennas(added a crossmember on top/etc), which If I recall also resulted in a bit of an increase in height for WSYX 6 antenna. WTTE used to be on WOSU tower, which is NNE of Downtown Columbus ... In order to help protect WRTV 6(Indianapolis), I think they used a beam tilt(possibly a change in the radiation pattern too - I'm too lazy right now to look it up) for the Channel 6 antenna which would favor the West Less .. I do know, that most of the time, I used to get WRTV 6(Indy)/WSYX 6 at about the Same level(depending upon how antenna was aimed), now, WSYX is usually very weak here now, oftentimes I can only get it via FM receiver tuned to 87.75MHZ. Of course, 88.1 in Dayton is also a problem for me here when aiming to the NE ....

Attached are a couple of screenshots I took(sorry about the quality - Taken w/digital camera) from WSYX-DT a couple of Days after they went to the "new antenna", during a news story on their Tower work with some nifty video - As you can see, the CH 6 antenna(on top right in left photo) appears to be "tilted" a bit :

Anyone hearing a "skipping" sound in WHIO audio on 41-1 tonight?

Jeff,

Your explaination of the antenna change explains why WSYX-6 is so weak compared to Channels 4 and 10. On my Winegard PR5030 VHF antenna currently at the top of the tower, I am very lucky to get anything on Channel 6, but I reasonable moderate to slightly snowy pictures on Ch 4 and 10. Channel 10 shows a lot of digital noise from WCPO-DT. My Delhi 307, with a narrower reception angle gets a much clearer picture at ground level. 3-6db on both 4 and 10 than the Winegard. When the weather warms up in a month or so, I will get the nerve to put the Delhi on top of the tower and hope to pick up even more signal. Ch 6 with the Delhi at ground level will barely pick up a picture, but almost always does. At height, I expect a snowy but 24/7 watchable picture.

I expect the curvature of the earth to cause a break in line of sight in your chart. Your line was only about 100' from intersecting the midway rise.
If line of sight on a 1000' antenna is about 60 miles, then 30 miles equals about 300' drop ((1-.707) * height). So the midway rise puts you out of line of sight under even a conservative estimation.

1450KHZ,

Yep, saw your post and checked it during ~21:15 ad inserts, and That's what I've also heard from them on occasion before. Back to Fox Widescreen on WXIX-DT Cincy which has come on air for first time in several days at some point between this afternoon and present ...

Originally posted by voyager6
For me and most Daytonians, the Columbus digitals are harder to get than Cincinnati because the terrain between Dayton and Cincinnati is flatter and they have taller transmitting antennas in Cincy than Columbus.
Greg

Actually, Terrain between Dayton + Cincy is generally Hillier than between Dayton and Columbus -- But, None of the "hills" between Dayton and Cincy are as high as the seemingly Flat ground between Columbus and Dayton, such as the ~1200 FT rise. There are some "high spots"(not quite 1200FT) in the Kettering/South Dayton area which I had thought might be an issue for Your location however ....

Also, The Transmitting antenna heights of Columbus and Cincy stations are very much the same, with the exception of some LP analogs, and WCVN/DT in N KY.

Follows are the antenna heights of Various Cincy/Columbus stations, as currently "configured" ...

Columbus DT stations Transmitting antenna Height Above Sea Level :

WSYX-DT : 1715FT ASL
WCMH-DT: 1660FT ASL
WWHO-DT: 1824FT ASL
WBNS-DT : 1718FT ASL
WOSU 34: 2017FT ASL
WTTE-DT : 1665FT ASL

Cincinnati DT stations transmitting antenna Height Above Sea Level :

WCPO-DT: 1578FT ASL
WCVN-DT: 1099FT ASL (Tower in N KY, Likely out of range for N Dayton)
WXIX-DT: 1660FT ASL
WKRC-DT: 1632FT ASL
WSTR-DT: 1765FT ASL
WCET-DT: 1761FT ASL
WLWT-DT: 1705FT ASL

----------------------------------------------

Originally posted by voyager6
If line of sight on a 1000' antenna is about 60 miles, then 30 miles equals about 300' drop ((1-.707) * height). So the midway rise puts you out of line of sight under even a conservative estimation.


I don't think calculating "RF line of sight" and how much that midway rise would put you "out of" RF line of sight is quite that simple ... You would really need to do something such as a "detailed" longely-rice propagation study which takes terrain into account to get the best idea of reception chances for a specific location ... Either that, or just try it, it seems to be working for your specific circumstance ... Again, I might be wrong as I would agree that it is a fairly "close thing" but, I'd say 1450KHZ has a good shot at getting reception of the Columbus stations given a decent outdoor antenna setup, and, I've certianly seen good reception occur in worse cirucmstances ....

For ONE thing, there is optical line of sight, and there is "RF line of sight", RF line of sight is ALLWAYS farther than Optical line of sight, even on UHF. Although the effect is more prevalent on the longer VHF wavelengths, Even on UHF frequencies(at all times anywhere on surface of earth), Signals on VHF/UHF(again, VHF moreso) will be "bent" beyond "optical" line of sight(curvature of earth, hills) a certian amount, basically, by "properties" of the "air" (Humidity/dewpoint/ etc) ALL the time ...

Depending upon the weather, The effect sometimes becomes much more pronounced in certian areas(such as ours which isn't as arid as say, the desert SW, but we don't generally get a lot of "enhancement" during the dry, winter months) when we receive more distant stations than is usually possible beyond curvature of earth via what we call "tropo scatter/Tropo ducting", but Tropo(short for troposphere) scatter(also called Ground Scatter) is ALLWAYS present to a certian extent, effecting both VHF and UHF frequencies.

This "constant ground scatter" is mostly why I receive WCMH 4 from 78 miles(some 15-20 miles or so beyond what should be "RF Line of sight" by most calulations) given their antenna height) All the time, "generally" Watchable about 70% of the time(again, more pronounced because of the longer VHF wavelength involved) and I get a bit of indication of signal from WSYX-DT Most of the time, and at least audio from WTTE 28 ~90~95% of the time -- All with WORSE terrain conditions than is present at your, or 1450KHZ location .... I also USED to be able to watch WBNS 10 much of the time(It, and "way back" when NBC did NFL WCMH 4/WAVE 3 louisville especially worked nicely for Bengals games -) ... Until WCPO-DT came up in 1998 that is I do still see them occasionally w/ant aimed towards Columbus, but it's usually a real mess ....

We'll see what happens, I'm just going to hook it up and see what I get. I think there's a shot at getting some the Cincy stations, because this Terk P.O.S. that I have right now gets a sniff of WLWT-DT every once in a while, plus I can see analog WCET and analog WXIX.

I'll update once I get everything hooked up, but it'll be a couple weeks before the new antenna gets here.

This area can get interesting for tropo during the right months. I've noticed a lot of activity on the FM band in the early mornings leaving for work, but I've never really looked at the activity on TV (as I was getting everything off cable prior to getting my DTV receiver).

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Anyone hearing a "skipping" sound in WHIO audio on 41-1 tonight?

1450khz,

I noticed that too on WHIO-DT last night during the shows I was sampling, Joan of Arcadia and then J.A.G. It doesn't seem to be a general reception drop-out problem, since the signal strength on the MDP-120 remained high and the video looked OK (OTA). It sounds like very short audio-only drop-outs.

I noticed the same thing a week or two ago on WHIO-DT but it later stopped and I thought it was fixed. Maybe someone who gets CBS HDTV by cable or satellite can enlighten us as to whether this is a network problem or limited to WHIO-DT locally.

Kevin

The video looked fine at my place too. It just sounded like a "skipping" noise in the audio. I noticed that it seemed to continue through the network commercial breaks and the local breaks too, so it could have been an encoder problem at the local station.

Audio was fine from CBS HD last night via WKRC-DT Cincinnati ...

1450KHZ,

Thought you might like to see this -- Attached is elevation profile(again, curvature of earth not taken into account) from your location(used a spot about a mile or So west of intersection of 235+Day-Yell Sprs. Rd this time) to WLWT/WCET Tower ...

Also, you're probably all getting sick of this, but Follows in next two posts is something I thought you fellows might like to see .. First off, attached to this post is the Terrain profile(curvature of Earth not taken into account), using Topo USA from My location (My location at Left - My antenna sits at 838FT ASL, 35FT AGL), and WCVN-DT 24 (KET/PBS) in N ky ... WCVN-DT antenna at 1099FT ASL, 279FT AGL - They are running 53.5KW ERP - Distance - 38.55 Miles.

Now, attached at bottom of this post is the terrain profile from a "detailed" Longely-rice study which a friend ran for me for WCVN-DT at my location(WCVN at LEFT, My location at right), which DOES take curvature of Earth into account ... So, this should give you a good idea of the "difference" concerning curvature of Earth, and how signals actually "behave"(Not the best explanation, but They tend to "hug the earth" within the coverage area(especially on VHF of course) - it's not really "completely" a "straight line thing") when compared to graphic in above post. This, of course Doesn't take into account all the 50-80' Trees in the signal path near my location, but, This is what the "numbers" for the WCVN study said:

Predicted Base pass Loss: 131.8db
diffraction: 29.6db
Fresnel: 11.5db

Predicted Signal Strength(at my antenna - 35ft AGL): 43Dbu

Note: I was a bit surprised how close the signal prediction site at http://www.ardman.net (Click on Yellow banner for the free predictions) was to this figure, although I'm not so sure the Ardman software takes Terrain into account ... Ardman predicts 44dbu from them for an antenna at my location at 30FT AGL.

Now, the important part --- Do I receive this station? Yes -- Perfectly for almost 2 years now(70~82 on the signal quality meter, which in this case DOES actually tell me a "little bit" about their signal - the 88~100 I get for the other Cincy/Dayton stations tells me next to nothing) --

In fact, getting a watchable pic on their analog station on 54(still some snow though) along with some of the Cincy LP analogs was a big part of my "antenna adjusting" back when I put the last "main antenna" up in 1993 ....It it's case, raising it a few feet more than I had originally planned made quite a difference .... Anyhow, I Can't get WCVN-DT with "rabbit ears" and a $2 UHF "Bowtie"(Folded dipole_ from indoors w/ant near window facing the towers like I can most of the other Cincy-Dayton Stations(Whose terrain profiles to my location, for the most part actually look Worse than this - The first "hill" a few miles from me towards WXIX tower(5 degrees to West of WCVN), for example, goes up to 950FT instead of 893FT) -- But of course, their Towers are higher, they're closer(Dayton especially 12~14miles)+they are running more power(Relatively speaking where WCPO-DT's 13.7KW ERP+VHF ch 10 is concerned) ...

Enjoying the HD pregame show on WHIO-DT?

See here(I called their newsroom and asked them to pass the message to the control room, BTW) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3227640#post3227640

Thanks for alerting them. I didn't flip the game on till about 10 after 3 so I didn't see the pregame show.

At least the massive snow going on at the game makes the pixelation caused by bandwidth constriction from WHIO's worthless SD subchannel less noticable.

WHIO WATCHERS: CALL TO ACTION FOR SUPER BOWL

I propose we all call the WHIO engineering department over the next 2 weeks and express our desire that 41-2 (aka 7-2) be shut off during the Super Bowl so that we can get the FULL HD experience!

Does anyone know of a way to contact engineering directly? I couldn't find anything in the phone book and this is all that's available on the website:

Contact WHIO-TV, whiotv.com And UPN44
Find Us Via Phone, E-Mail And Snail Mail
BY PHONE
To report a BREAKING NEWS STORY, call the NewsCenter 7 Breaking News Hotline at 1-937-259-2237.

FROM YOUR MOBILE PHONE
NewsCenter 7 Tip line: #7TV (#788)

MAILING ADDRESS
WHIO-TV
1414 Wilmington Avenue
Dayton, Ohio 45420

OTHER CONTACT INFORMATION
Newsroom Fax: (937) 259 - 2005
Main Switchboard (M-F 9 a.m. - 5 p.m.): (937) 259-2111

BY E-MAIL:
7online@whiotv.com
(Due to the volume we receive, personal replies will not always be possible.)

Paul

I have no idea how to contact WHIO TV engineering directly. Someone I went to school with works for the radio stations in that building, and offered to relay my complaints about the picture quality to the TV engineering department. However, it appears to have fallen on deaf ears so far.

I'm going to try sending him a printable email he can put in the engineer's mailbox, requesting that they please shut off the 41-2 / 7-2 subchannel for the Super Bowl because it is having a serious effect on the picture quality of the HD broadcasts.

Since it's easier to attract flies with honey than vinegar, I don't think I'll mention my attempts of getting WBNS instead. :D

For what it's worth, I just sent them an email (7online@whiotv.com).

Paul

I'm sending an email too. Hopefully enough emails will convince them that a.) people are watching Ch. 41 and b.) they are noticing the PQ problem.

Jeff,

Sorry to continue this, but FCC lists height above average terrain in meters for the following stations:

wtte = 271
wbns = 279
wSYX = 286
wcMh = 264
WOSU = 291

WLWT - 310.5
WCPO - 280
WXIX - 290
WCET - 326
WKRC - 278

Not that there is much difference, but this was the basis for my statement that the antenna heights were higher in Cincy than Columbus.

All of your Topo graphs show about 100' clearance line of sight at the 30 mile mark to the ~1200' peak. Your own plot with curvature of the earth shows at least a 300' drop in 30 miles. Thus, The Columbus channels are 200' below optical line of sight. Obviously, RF line of sight has to be higher,
otherwise I wouldn't be getting what I do.

Finally, I was in error concerning my statement that the Dayton to Cincinnati path is 'flatter' than Dayton to Columbus. Technically the hills toward Cincy are below my 1040'ASL antenna height, whereas the Dayton/Columbus path has that ~1200' peak in between and I made the statement taking into account only my local situation.

I have one exception towards Cincy, WCVN, as you speculated. While, I have picked them up from time to time (both analog and digital), I have a terrain blockage at the SR741/SR725 interchange in Miamisburg. If they ever increase power/height, then I should be able to get them.

Anxiously awaiting to see if I get WOSU-DT.

Greg

Greg,

No reason to be sorry, I enjoy talking about this stuff. We might be boring others though ...

Concerning WCVN -- Hate to sound pessimistic, but I doubt if they'll increase Height/power ... Their tower is a 300 footer(as it has been for as long as I've been watching them at least, some 20+ years), with the analog transmitting antenna only 30' higher on their tower than the DT... They are a State run network(Kentucky Educational TV), and have a statewide system of 16 NTSC/ATSC(32 combined) transmitters(If you haven't already, many of which I'm sure you'll see via a bit of extended "ground scatter"/tropo scatter "fairly soon") -- WCVN "sort of" fills in a "gap" between KET stations WKON Owenton/WKMR Morehead. And of course, we aren't short of PBS stations around here ...

Also, I've been watching the Columbus board Closely to See when WOSU-DT comes up. I'm going to have to look on FCC site to check the specifics on their CP and if they've filed for STA/etc. WOTH-LP 38 Cincy will noise it up off the side, but I'm still interested to see how much "tropo enhancement" it will take for me to see them, and how it compares to what I need from the Other Columbus DT's.

------

I can't think of the best way to say this, but I think what we are "debating" here, in this case I think is a "very fine line" of whether or not reception will potentially work for Columbus in 1450KHZ case without a lot of difficulty ... Why are we doing this? Because it's fun :-) Well, I think its fun anway ... I think in this case, it's a case in which it can go either way, and in my case anyway, I'm just making hopefully educated guesses about it ... I'm quite sure that in other instances, if it wasn't such a fine line, we'd probably agree completely, one way or another ...

On the HAAT figures you posted --- Yes, as was the case with the HASL figures there is not much difference -- But --- HAAT is just that ... Height above "average terrain", which is really only "precise" if all the terrain involved(such as at the receiving location) is at, or close to the "average".

Also, and this is what I want to stress in this circumstance --- The "average terrain" for any given station will probably be DIFFERENT depending upon the terrain that "surrounds" the tower, although, the elevation at the viewers location will be "the same as it allways was" and may not "correspond well" to the average terrain "figure" for any given transmitting location/Service Area(even WITHIN the service area), with of course, also, the terrain in the signal path differing from "average". So, Lets examine a couple of these:

WBNS-DT - 279M/915FT HAAT - 1718FT ASL - IF you are at 803FT ASL Then, you are at "Average Terrain" as it was calculated for this station. And, If all the terrain between you and the tower is 803FT ASL, then any calculation you would use to try to detirmine where (solely) curvature of Earth would "get in the way", of line of sight would then be very precise. However, if your location is say, at 600FT, 900 or 1000FT and the terrain in the signal path varies significantly from "average", then, things wouldn't be so precise.

WLWT-DT (310.5 HAAT) 1018FT HAAT - 1705FT ASL - IF you are at 687FT ASL, Then, You are at "Average Terrain", as it was "caluclated" for this station. Does this mean WBNS-DT's Antenna is "really" 103 feet higher in the air than WLWT-DT's Tower? No. All it really means is that the Average Terrain(as calculated by FCC guidelines) Surrounding WLWT-DT(probably in the so called service area) is 116 Feet lower than the "average terrain" around WBNS's. In actuality, WBNS-DT's antenna is 13 Feet higher in the air than WLWT-DT's antenna. I can't really use HAAT to compare it to WBNS-DT's antenna height, since the average terrain around WLWT-DT's tower is different than the figure for WBNS-DT's tower, and, therefore there is no "constant" here that we have that lets us make a comparison between the two stations DTV Transmitting antenna height, or any constant which would apply at any given receiving location(or for the terrain in the signal paths for that matter).

It doesn't work well for "everything" and in all "areas", however, Using HASL(height above sea level) gives us a real elevation "constant", and is precise. HAAT doesn't give us a constant, and isn't as precise. Either way(unless everything is flat), taking the terrain that lies between Transmitting and receiving location into account is necessary to get a better idea of things than what we could if we "pretended" the earth was "perfectly round".

For example, let's say I'm directly between WLWT-DT and WBNS-DT antenna, at an elevation of, say, 800FT ASL. The "angle" of the "line of sight" to each station's antenna is going to be very much the same(It will differ very, very slightly because of the 13 Foot greater height of WBNS-DT antenna). WBNS-DT antenna isn't going to "appear" as 103 FT lower at the HAAT figure would "seem" to indicate, and therefore at a lower angle than WLWT-DT antenna because The average terrain at the Two transmitting sites is different ... Any terrain that limits(or doesn't limit) "line of sight" between either broadcasting location isn't going to change that "angle" either, although, of course, it's quite possible that the terrain In Between may be more of an issue for one station than for the other. It *might be* Cincy, or Columbus which is more affected by terrain "in between" in this circumstance --- You aren't going to be able to tell this by the HAAT figure, you're going to have to look at the actual terrain(such as with topo maps) to get an idea ...

Also, a bit of "trivia" --- On the HAAT figures --- The broadcast towers in Columbus(sans WOSU/WWHO) are down in a bowl with bases of the towers at around 700' ASL or so, and, the Cincy Towers are on hills with elevation of ~800FT or so. In terms of "metal", the Columbus Towers themselves are generally a little "taller" than the Cincy towers. Also, the actual "average Terrain" in all of Southern Ohio is probably(just a guess), around the 800' mark, although, between Dayton and Columbus specifically, The average terrain is probably something more like 900~1000FT or so.

Of course, Height Above Sea level doesn't work "perfectly" either -- In our area, because the "bumps"/terrain difference in the signal path is(as is also the case with HAAT however) an important variable. But, whether any given terrain in the area is "average or not", and the different "average terrain" around the transmitting towers are at least, no longer a variable IF you use ASL instead of HAAT.

Also, I'm not(and certianly wasn't) disagreeing that Optical line of site isn't achieved in the instances you mention, nor that the 1,200 FT rise between Dayton/Cincy isn't an Issue ... In my "original post"(with the 1st attached elevation profile) I did, however orignally misstate my intended comments somewhat at first, but I edited those comments within a few minutes or so of posting it ...

I do think that in this particular instance where 1450Khz's "possibility" for Columbus reception is concerned, every little bit "farther" you are from the Columbus towers, reception will be all that much more difficult, a little more so than would be the case if that 1200FT rise were "flat" at 1,000FT, but also, in combination with this -- because of "normal" curvature of Earth(and more attenuation of signal) beginning to become more and more of a factor the more distant you are from the station. And I also think, Some of the the terrain quite near his location might Also be as much, or perhaps even a bit more of a limiting factor than that 1200FT rise ..

I do have some experience with reception in hillier regions than ours, and I can tell you that sometimes, these things can work out a little better than what we might think ... Hence my "posistion" on this .... On the other hand .... The higher the frequency/Greater the distance/less power/etc, the more difficult it is to overcome what I'd call in this circumstance "slight" terrain issues -- And also, It's certianly not all that difficult for the receiving antenna to end up in a bit of a "dead spot" ...

I can't think of the best way to say this, but I think what we are "debating" here, in this case I think is a "very fine line" of whether or not reception will potentially work for Columbus in 1450KHZ case without a lot of difficulty ... Why are we doing this? Because it's fun :-)

Exactly! :D

Heard back from Jim Atkinson at WDTN/DT concerning the "occasional" Dropped/Errant frame issue during HD ... As they say Anything that CAN happen .... For finding and correcting such issues, however, the CE's out there deserve our thanks(and most likely a pay raise too!) Anyhow, Follows is his reply :

" I think we have found the problem and resolved it. It appears that the trigger signal that we are using to switch from up-conversion to HD was being intermittently pulsed from an external source (unknown at this time). To correct for this, we have filtered the pulse and hopefully corrected the problem. The flash frame was from the up-converter which very rapidly switched on-line and then off. Let me know if you see any further problems,

As always, thanks for your help."

Jim Atkinson
Chief Engineer
WDTN 2
WDTN-DT 50

I sent an email to the 7online@whiotv.com and received a response from their chief engineer a few days later. So that seems like a good address to use to contact them.

I noticed that while watching some of the local channels the HD show will be on the X.1 channel and then the same show will be in SD on X.2. Is that what you guys mean by them multicasting? I could see why they would want to show a different program on a subchannel but is there ANY logical reason they would want to duplicate their HD broadcast?

er824: That's the multicasting we're talking about. I have no idea what the usefulness of duplicating the programming on a SD subchannel is. The ABC, NBC, and CBS affils are all doing it for some reason. The bandwidth used by that subchannel is what's causing the pixelation during HD football on WHIO.

I noticed that the flicker effect on WDTN was gone the other day. That's an interesting story to what's behind it, and a nice job by the CE in hunting it down (troubleshooting things like that can be very frustrating).

er824,

Yes, that's multicasting ... Except multicasting USUALLY means the programming service is different, like on WPTD-DT's Different SD programming services on 16.1~4.

As to why they would want to duplicate the same programming service, It's pretty much useless to me, but I can, unfortunetly, think of some reasons why it might be useful for them :

#1) To provide 4x3 480i SD "digital" feed to cableco or DBS Headends, Instead of the cableco using their analog station. I have spoken to a fellow who works at a station(not in our area, but it is a CBS HD affiliate) which is using their SD subchannel for this exact reason.

#2) To ensure the station meets FCC analog simulcast rules, just "in case" they decide to run different programming in HD at some time-- And/or, they may be "planning" on multicasting some "different programming" in the "future".

#3) So they can insert weather bugs/tickers/graphics/etc. on the digital station without affecting HD(i.e. having to switch to SD to insert weather bugs) ... The equipment need to insert this stuff into HD is somewhat expensive at present.

#4) This is the answer I like least, but it's one I have heard before .... "because they can" ...Simply, because they have the HD+SD encoders lying around, and want to use them or whatever ..

Update: Edit: 1450KHZ -- Oops! didn't see your post when I posted this, sorry for duplication ...

I forgot this in my last post, is WPTD-DT down tonight? I wasn't getting any signal (around the time of the last post was when I was channel surfing.)

At 23:00~23:30 EST, WPTD-DT is on the air "in a sense", but it isn't sending out a signal an ATSC receiver could recognize .... You'll need a non-screen blanking NTSC TV, with which presently, you can tune one of those to 58, and see what you get instead of what should look like "regular snow".... BTW, I did watch part of HD Tracks Ahead on the HD sub around 6 or 7, and it was fine then ....

We've seen this happen once before some time back, at that time, Charles Cole at ThinkTV reported on one of the The Cincy thread(might not be the present thread, can't recall) that it was logged as a transmitter problem ...

Attached is screenshot I just took of what it looks like in "NTSC land" .... Anything that "can happen" .... Looks like "Murphy" must be running around loose again ....

THE PROBLEM REPORTED THIS PAST WEEK-END WAS A EXCITER PROBLEM.
HAS OF 9:45 AM ON 1-20-04 THE EXCITER WS BACK ON-LINE.

Thanks for the info, George. WPTD-DT is fine here at lunchtime, no longer seeing the problem which we were experiencing last night.

I decided that instead of clogging up space here, I made a little webpage for my strange question:

http://www.buckeye-web.com/dayton_mystery/

I really doubt this is a communications antenna, but it makes me wonder! Any ideas anyone?


PS - Jeff and Greg, IMHO keep posting the terrain LOS and stuff - I enjoy reading!

Buckeye 1010,

Hard to tell, but from the "zoomed in" photos, it almost looks like to me that it could be some sort of solid, column-like, monument like structure.

AFAIK, Marconi sent/received the first "useable" signal "over the air"(out of his attic, but he probably had some sort of "wire" strung up outdoors) In 1894~1895 or so. ( http://physicsweb.org/article/world/14/12/7 ) ..

What we call "spark gap" transmitters were used for wireless transmission until the Vaccum Tube, which was important for a number of reasons, one being that it was now possible to use these tubes as amplifers, so that the weak signals could be amplified on the Receiving end. Vacuum Tubes, and Radio then took off in the 1920's ...

Anyhow, also, There was a very detailed page on web concerning a 129FT wooden observation tower used for Geological surveys around 1892 which was located in Clermont County, Ohio(just east of Cincinnati), I can no longer find the detailed Info on it I was looking for, but there is a pic of it (#1565) which can be accessed at following page:

http://www.photolib.noaa.gov/historic/c&gs/thind32.htm

BTW, Here's another great, Radio/TV/Tower related site with lots of great info/tower info/historical info/etc. you might be interested in checking out:

http://hawkins.pair.com/radio.html

It appears to me to be the same soldier figure that now sits in the middle of N. Main St. downtown between Monument and First. I believe it is the Civil War Monument. See this link: http://www.planetware.com/photos/US/OHDAY2.HTM

Actually, if you do a search you'll get a lot of hits, including this one:

http://www.dayton.med.va.gov/cemetery.html#anchor212225

Boy do I feel stupid! You are indeed correct - that is the soldiers monument. In fact, I've been there and taken pictures of it. I was somehow seeing a large tv-antenna-like structure - time to get bifocals, I guess!

Don't feel bad -- At first, when I looked at your top Photo, I even thought I saw the feedline going up!

I'm hearing that the Daytona 500 will be at least partially in HD on NBC. Think it'll be full of macroblocks on WKEF (assuming they remember to switch)?

Or would now be a good time to start asking them to consider turning off 51-2? :rolleyes:

WOSU-DT is on the air tonight (CH 38) and is currently multicasting one HD channel and one SD channel. There are placeholders for three other SD channels.

They must have come on nearly full power. I am getting a 69 signal level and have a faint analog coming about 30 degees N of the peak level.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
I'm hearing that the Daytona 500 will be at least partially in HD on NBC. Think it'll be full of macroblocks on WKEF (assuming they remember to switch)?

Or would now be a good time to start asking them to consider turning off 51-2? :rolleyes:

Can you receive WLWT-DT? They do a great job!

Paul

Can you receive WLWT-DT? They do a great job!

I can't quite get them right now, I can get a sniff here and there but my receiver won't lock on.

However, my antenna right now is a piece of junk. I'm hoping my new antenna setup will get them.

It Will be interesting to compare Daytona 500 WLWT-DT/WKEF-DT. Haven't quite figured out why, but 51-2 really wasn't much of a problem during Winter HD Olympics in 2002, which was broadcast some 16 hours a day by both NBC and HDNet. You could just Barely tell the difference in compression artifacts between WKEF-DT/WLWT-DT, and only during especially demanding portions. Nothing like what we get from WHIO-DT/WKRC-DT. At that time however, 51-2 did seem to be quite low bitrate.

Greg,

Congrats on WOSU-DT! I gave it a try, but band conditions were too "dead as doornail" stage down here last night to see anything from WOSU-DT. WCET-DT stayed up past their usual "bedtime", so I couldn't tell if I was seeing their analog at all or not.

On the analog 38 you were seeing, I don't know of any in that direction, WADL-DT 38 Detroit is the only thing I've logged on 38 to the N or NE. Only thing I could thing of would be WOTH-LP 38 Cincy off the back side, which is of course why I don't get to log a lot of DX stations on 38 these days...

WOTH-LP was displaced from 35 by WLWT-DT in 1998, and displaced from 39 by WKOI-DT in Late 2002/Early 2003 ... They have a CP to move to 25, and use WBQC-CA's current facilities, WBQC-CA 25(UPN Cincy) has a CP to move to 38 and increase power to 140KW ...

I am quite suprised as WOSU-DT apparently stayed on the air all night long. It was on at 12 midnight and was on at 615AM this morning. This is quite unusual for a station to come on at high power without weeks or months to ratchet up to their maximum power limit.

Whoever is managing this feat is doing a great job!

Did any one notice audio dropouts on the HD broadcast of CSI on WHIO tonight? There was a constant crackling sound. It was so bad I had to switch to the SD channel ;-(

I noticed problems with both WHIO-DT and WKRC-DT, though WKRC seemed to be more of a video breakup. I figured it must be the network feed. CSI was a rerun so I didn't watch for long.

I'm new to HDTV, just got my Mits 48-WS313 delivered last saturday. I am a TWC subscriber and will continue to be, but i want more HD content in addition to NBC, Discovery, InHD1, InHD2, HBO, and Showtime... mainly CBS and ABC are what i'm looking for... I know i can go out and pick up the little samsung 151 ATSC receiver for 199 bucks at best buy, but i guess i need some justification for doing so, I mean, that purchase is worthless the day that TWC begins carrying WHIO and WDTN... I haven't been able to get much of an answer from TWC CSR's or the Dayton affiliates, does anyone else have any more inside information as to when these may be picked up... Also if i do decide to spend the 200 bucks for the samsung receiver, could i get away with a cheap indoor antenna? How much minimum would i have to spend to get a reliable signal from WDTN and WHIO... (i'm in beavercreek township, and on a clear night i can easily see all the dayton towers)...

browerjs,

Hard to say, but this $2.99 UHF Folded dipole (#15-234) from Radio Shack would probably do the trick for you for the Dayton DTV Stations :

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D234

Placing it in a "sweet spot" for reception may be necessary, however. Often, near a window that faces the towers works out to be a good spot.

Update: Oh yeah, forgot to mention -- PBS HD from TW Dayton should be available on TW Ch. 716 (ThinkHD 16 - WPTD-DT, Dayton) - They are currently broadcasting PBS HD from ~6pm-6am nightly, 716 would probably be blank during other hours. You can get that+ThinkDTV's SD multicast services over the air(OTA) too, of course.

I emailed whio and asked ii they knew when Time Warner was going to add their digital station before the superbowl. The response I got back was:

"Good morning, we are speaking with time-Warner Cable on this issue. It should be soon, but I don't know about the Super Bowl."

Nice to know they answer someone's email. Anybody else get a response on whether they'll drop 41-2?

From going back and searching this thread, it looks like TWC actually added the Masters broadcast for last year so i did a little searching on their site and this is the quote i found:

"Q. What shows can I get in high definition with Time Warner Cable?
A. You will get all of the high definition shows carried by the channels that we offer including prime time lineups from networks like ABC, CBS, NBC and WB. You'll also get annual special events such as the Super Bowl, the NBA Finals, the Stanley Cup, the Academy Awards, the NCAA Final Four, and the PGA Masters. In addition, you'll get high definition movies and programming from HBO and Showtime including The Sopranos and Sex And The City."

Does this mean we'll get the upcoming Super Bowl and Academy Awards??? One can only hope :)

Originally posted by er824
I emailed whio and asked ii they knew when Time Warner was going to add their digital station before the superbowl. The response I got back was:

"Good morning, we are speaking with time-Warner Cable on this issue. It should be soon, but I don't know about the Super Bowl."

What email address did you send this to? I have yet to get a response from WHIO

I sent the email to the email address on their website:

7online@whiotv.com

I haven't gotten anything back on my request to drop 41-2 during HD programs.

I used the "7online" address as well.

I've received no answer either from 7online about 41-2.

I'm also very frustrated with not having CBS, ABC, and ESPN-HD on TWC.

I guess what is the most frustrating is not being able to get a decent answer out of anyone regarding the progress in talks between TWC and the stations.

Having CBS by Super Bowl Sunday would be great, but I think I have a better chance of winning the lotto.

For my 12th or 13th email to the 7online address, I did get an autoresponse which was interesting ... The autoresponse contained something similar to: "I'm out of the office, be back in about a month" LOL!

I can't find it now(I usually hold onto this stuff, so we can(hopefully) look back on it in a few years and laugh about it), but I believe I once DID get a response from one of their Engineers(I sent my message to a email address that was listed on their website at the time, not sure if it was the 7online address, or something else) .... I do recall That message/response was back in Fall 2001, not long after WHIO-DT first made it (with CBS HD right off the bat) To the airwaves.

I decided I wasn't going to hold my breath waiting on TWC and I wasn't going to watch the Superbowl in SD on my 2 month old HD capable TV so I bought an inexpensive OTA tuner on ebay. I figure I'll sell it in a couple of months. I don't even have my TW box hooked up right now.

The current HD situation is kind of frustrating. All those little "Available in HD" logos at the begining of shows are nice, but the reality has been somewhat disappointing. The networks seem to be doing a decent job but the local broadcasters and content providers are not exactly tripping over themselves to provide the content. It almost seems like the local stations treat their digital stations as an afterthought and an inconvenience. At a time when networks are losing viewers to cable the locals have the ability to offer a product that is vastly superior to %95 of the material out there and they are ignoring it. They should be using this time when there are relatively few HD monitors out there to position themselves as the leading providers.

The locals have been given all this extra bandwith, why aren't they using it? If they are broadcasting something in SD why don't they take advantage of the extra capacity and broadcast additional programming? Then you wouldn't have to preempt your normal primetime programming to show a special event. Or let me chose which of the 3 available football games I want to watch.

I do think the situation will be vastly improved 3 years from now. The whole thing reminds me of when DVD players first starting coming on the market. While it is taking longer for HD to pick up momentum you can see signs of it happening. 6 months ago I didn't know anyone with an HD capable set, now, probably %25 of the people I work with have them and many more are actively contemplating purchasing them.

Originally posted by er824
The current HD situation is kind of frustrating. All those little "Available in HD" logos at the begining of shows are nice, but the reality has been somewhat disappointing. The networks seem to be doing a decent job but the local broadcasters and content providers are not exactly tripping over themselves to provide the content. It almost seems like the local stations treat their digital stations as an afterthought and an inconvenience.


Well... concerning your last sentence here first ... keep in mind, instead of ONE station, staff at every station across U.S. now has to operate TWO stations instead of one, and for the most part they do a fine job of it .. But yeah, the digital station at present time is not the priority -- perfectly understandable, since the analog is the cash cow ... I think you'll start seeing the pendulum begin swinging the other way quite soon ... Meaning within the next 4-5 years or so ...

Also, the below comments might sound strange after I say this ... But -- I do think you've made an excellent post here ...All of it ... as it is pretty much EXACTLY the sorts of general thoughts I think most of us have(perhaps especially when we first start watching HD/DTV) if we are sitting down, expecting to enjoy a "high quality" HD AND DTV service .....

Otherwise .... Wow ... I had no idea ... This sounds like a post from 2-3 years ago ... So basically, where the entire post is concerned .... I have to say, HUH? --- Heck, the State of the Union speech was in HD this year+carried on 7 stations in HD in Dayton and Cincinnati ..... can you believe that? Every MNF game this past season, pretty much all the nets prime time schedules/etc/etc ... Sure, WKEF-DT is sometiems lax about "throwing the HD switch", WBDT-DT isn't passing through WB HD yet, WRGT-DT doesn't provide Fox Widescreen, but for the most part, the other stations in Dayton/Cincinnati(There are 14 Cincy/Dayton DTV stations) pretty much provide 100% of the HD avaialble To them. When they don't, the thing to do is CALL them, ask to be transferred to engineering(or pass the message along)+ask them to provide HD.

We've come a LONG way where HD programming is concerned in a very short amount of time, and yes, we are very much still in the early stages of this game, but things are progressing VERY quickly. For example, I think it probably took 30-35 years before 1100 TV stations were on the air in the U.S., in a matter of 8 years, almost 1200 DTV stations have come up in the U.S, except for the first 300 or so, most of those have come on line since 2002.

Anyhow, 2 years ago, you were lucky to get ANY HD on any given night , the Nets/content providers just weren't providing all that much of it, CBS+HDnet being, the only big exceptions. Now, outside of News/reality TV sort of programming, virtually everything in Prime time from the "big 4" is HD/Fox widescreen+WPTD-DT gives us 12 Hours of PBS HD every night! WB HD(and enterprise/jake 2.0 from UPN) is the Only HD programming we're missing in Dayton/Cincy that is "available" in any way for broadcast by local TV stations ..

Originally posted by er824
At a time when networks are losing viewers to cable the locals have the ability to offer a product that is vastly superior to %95 of the material out there and they are ignoring it. They should be using this time when there are relatively few HD monitors out there to position themselves as the leading providers.


Well, I wouldn't quite put it that way, but for the most part, I personally agree with you here(In fact, they should've been doing this as soon as, or even before their stations hit the air), but you have to understand, TV broadcasting is very much a day to day, "Bottom line" business. Right now(and previously), HD+DTV is only COSTING broadcasters money, and there will never really probably be a time when HD will "make" broadcasters ANY extra money ... Heck, right now, as far as ratings(ratings are very important to TV stations+advertisers) go, DTV viewers "don't count"(unless it's against the very program your watching which is airing on a analog channel), as neilsen does not measure DTV/HD viewers.

Furthermore, keep in mind, As a "general figure", it generally costs several million Dollars or so for EACH station to build a DTV station that will just pass through HD from the Nets+allow for simulcasting the content on the analog station. This is more than some small market stations are WORTH. Actually doing HD production/etc. is much, much more. Only very, very few stations in the U.S. are doing it. There is also NO real Infrustructre in place for delivering syndicated HD programming to stations, either. Your run of the mill, monthly utility bill to run a hi-power, UHF transmitter is in the $,$$$ to $$,$$$ per month. To top it all off, it is the Gov't that mandated stations build DTV stations on a timetable set by the Gov't. HD is NOT mandated by the Gov't, although it's "expected" via a "gentleman's sort of agreement" ..

But, yeah, IMO, broadcasters made(and are still making) a mistake when they didn't try to make the most out of HD+DTV(imagine even a little PROMOTION+public education concerning their DTV/HD station) -- when they had the most oppurtunity to do so -- It's getting to be a little late for that now, though -- The cableco's have pretty much already figured it out, the broadcasters are just going to have to find out the hard way, as evidently, given the multicasting some of them are shooting for, they still haven't figured it out ...

Originally posted by er824

The locals have been given all this extra bandwith, why aren't they using it? If they are broadcasting something in SD why don't they take advantage of the extra capacity and broadcast additional programming? Then you wouldn't have to preempt your normal primetime programming to show a special event. Or let me chose which of the 3 available football games I want to watch.

I do think the situation will be vastly improved 3 years from now. The whole thing reminds me of when DVD players first starting coming on the market. While it is taking longer for HD to pick up momentum you can see signs of it happening. 6 months ago I didn't know anyone with an HD capable set, now, probably %25 of the people I work with have them and many more are actively contemplating purchasing them.

Well, for what you're looking for, it might be more like 10-15 years - Which is really pretty quick. Network infrustructure, and local TV/DTV plants/etc, don't quite move at the pace of consumer electronics. IT's a BIG task. It takes 1-2 years or so of a number of people working very hard just to BUILD a TV station. Take NYC, for example. Things still are a long way from "normal", but the years of work that went into building the DTV stations(most all broadcast from WTC) took even more years to get back and running ... NBC/ABC DTV stations just got back on the air in NYC a couple months back .. And, NYC is DMA #1 in the U.S! Meanwhile, in Dayton(#58) things have been pretty darn rosy ..... The cincy stations have been on air as early as 98+99, we have 10 stations in Dayton/Cincy doing HD or Fox widescreen -- 3 PBS stations, with a 4th soon to come .... and(except WKOI-DT/TBN and maybe a slight exception to this for WSTR-DT Cincy's directional antenna pattern) all of the stations are running Hi, or adequete "enough" power levels, from nice, high antenna heights ... This area is HEAVEN for Over the air HDTV+DTV in comparision to many, and probably most areas ...

On multicasting -- be Careful what you ask for! IF that sort of thing DOES happen, hard to say, but You probably would see a lot more programming you could care less about, and less HD ......I don't know about you, but the 16x9 displays and DTV receivers I have here were purchased with the expectation of as much High quality, HD programming broadcast from the local stations as is possible ... So, far, personally, I can't complain TOO much ... but yeah, I'll do some nit picking about this or that every now and then ...

Anyhow, You should have been a HD viewer 2-3 years ago! Man, you really would have been frustrated back then. It is simply amazing how quickly things have improved. And now, well, I think we are finally to the stage that "It's all happening" ...

On extra bandwidth ... Broadcasters(some not all) have been "loaned" an extra 6MHZ for their Digital station, and were told they had to spend billions and billions of $(combined) to build out their DTV stations by such and such date(for markets above #30, that date was 5/1/2002 for commercial broadcasters, 5/1/2003 for non-comms). Once the analogs are shut off, the 6MHZ being used by the analog goes back to the government. So, mainly, what broadcasters have been given is a huge bill+, since the FCC only recently put the Tuner Mandate and other rules into into effect which will help further along the transistion, it's been a huge bill with no light at the end of the tunnel ... This is why, they are currently exploring Multicasting options, asking for cable carriage of multiple programming streams .. So they can pay for some of this stuff .... And again, a part of that huge bill includes maintenance+utility costs to keep TWO stations on the air.

They also have to adhere to FCC rules, one of which is a analog simulcast requirement, which says they have to air the SAME programming that runs on their analog station on their digital station a certian amount of the time. Right now, it's a 50% simulcast requirement, in april, it goes up to %75, in 2005, it goes up to 100%.

As for your point on Multicasting ... IF you notice, WPTD-DT 58(16.x remap) does just that. There is 19.34mb/s of bandwidth that is usable within a 6MHZ ATSC RF channel -- Without reducing HD quality, That is just enough for ONE 1080i HD program, One 720p+1 480i, or as many as 4(some are doing 6) 480i SD programming services. Now --- Ok, so it sounds great, HD at night, Multiple SD streams during the day. However, #1). Stations/networks have difficulty filling their schedule with "quality programming" given just ONE programming service(Note the infomercials). #2). For the most part, it's unlikely a station is going to want to draw viewers(and ad revenue) from its MAIN service, by competing against itself by offering other "very desireable" services you WANT to watch. It'll probably happen now and again, and unfortunetly, HD+SD together will be happening more and more with probably "niche" services on the SD subchannels. ... #3). "technical issues" - With much of the equipment in use at our local DTV stations, it's just not a simple thing to "switch around" subchannels/Resolutions/programming services. #4). If a stations multiple services aren't going to be carried on cable(which unfortunetly is going to probably occur -- but we'll see what FCC says -- should happen fairly soon), there will be little reason for them to offer those services. #5). "
Quality Programming" has to be paid for by somebody -- Again, it's a huge task for the Nets/local broadcasters to fill ONE programming service with quality programming you want to watch .... and personally, I'd rather see more quality programming rather than more quanity -- The latter "model" which gives us hundreds of channels of junk .... Now, for the most part There is an exception to 1,2,3,4,5 above ... And that's PBS .... What works best for them is a little different ... IF you notice, all 3 of the Dayton/Cincy area PBS stations currently Multicast different SD services ... right now, there are 12 "channels" of PBS from these 3 station..... ALL carried by local cableco's. Unfortunetly, all 3 stations also degrade HD quality by leaving 2 SD subchannels up alongside HD .....

probably all more than you wanted to hear and Sorry for all the long paragraphs, but I really didn't even scratch the surface of this story .. .. so, you might want to do a little more research on this ...

Jeff,

Thanks for the great response. You really make some excellent points. I didn't mean to sound as negative as I did. Actually, I think its a pretty exciting time, you can almost see the momentum picking up in the HD arena. Its happening slowly, but that is to be expected.

Why doesn't Nielsen measure DTV viewers? Are there to few of us to matter? So if someone is watching a Digital broadcast it is actually lowering the ratings of the broadcaster? I guess that could explain the lack of vigorous marketing....

Eric

Eric,

I didn't think you were being negative. I thought your post was excellent. You may have not seen it, but I felt I had to go back and add the second paragraph ... It was my initial impression of your post, but I didn't know how to add it, but later decided I had to put it in there somehow .....

Anyhow, my understanding is, Nielsen doesn't have the monitoring equipment/procedure "set up" yet to monitor DTV viewers, but they are working on measuring DTV viewers, I think it's going to be fairly soon(within next year or so, I believe). We're starting to matter I think.

One of the latest figures I've seen indicates is that there are now around 5 million or so households that can view HD(in some shape or form). That is a HUGE increase when compared to the less than .5% of households just 2 years ago. I don't have a real good sense of exactly how many of us there are in this area, but my "wild guess" is, Cincy+Dayton -- Probably about 10,000 households or so, maybe more. Last December(2002), it was reported 15,000 HD capable displays had been sold in Cincinnati up to that time, and at same time, Time Warner Cincinnati reported they had 6,000 subscribers to their HD service. Also, Judging from the posts from a couple of hundred or so different posters over the past 2 years or so on this and other forums who recieve Cincinnati or Dayton DTV stations OTA(some from quite outlying locations), depending upon what percentage of OTA viewers find, and actually post on AVSforum my wild guess is, there are probably something like 600~1500 or more households watching these stations OTA. Hopefully, even that is a conservative estimate. Who knows about the # of Dayton TW HD subscribers ....

'Those might seem like big numbers to us(and I might be wrong, too as its just a hopefully, somewhat educated guess), its of course, nothing compared to analog, or even digital SD cable, which DOES carry some of the Digital SD services from local DTV stations presently -- such as PBS Kids from WCET-DT Cincinnati ...

Also, Dayton+Cincinnati, if added together is a HUGE market. IF it were counted as One market, It would be interesting to know what the DMA # rating would be ... I do know probably about 2 Million or more people live in the Coverage area of any of the "big stick" Dayton, or Cincinnati stations ....

For OTA, Hard to say(or even guess, really) though --- It's been tried I think, but you can't really look at receiver sales in the area, since so many of us purchase equipment off the net. It's a lot more than 3~4 years ago(For Dayton, 7~10 probably wasn't all that unrealistic of a figure for that time ;-), that's for sure ... The number also isn't going to get smaller, it's going to get much larger especially once Tuner mandate goes into effect(starts with 36" sets in just a few months), and OTA viewers(believe it or not, there are quite a number of us out here, in some cases in rural parts of this area - such as my specific location - Cable doesn't even reach us, and probably never will) replace their 25" sets with new sets with internal DTV tuners ...

Back to neilsen ratings --- Of course, only the households with neilsen meters matter to the ratings figures, so (unless you have a neilsen meter in your house) you're not really hurting anything by actually watching the DTV/HD station. Some time ago, I had seen posts from AVSmembers who had previously been "neilsen familys"(you can't talk about it when it's happening), and what they did was write down their HD viewing ... The meters/equipment they use isn't set up for DTV yet ... So, the written down stuff wasn't "counted but hopefully helped Nielsen with the process of adding DTV viewers to their "measurements" ...." I'm not sure if they "meter" viewers/families that have DTV/HD viewing capability until they can "measure" that viewing -- They shouldn't, and wouldn't think they would do so, but who knows ....

Likely because of equipment cost/switching issues, If you've noticed, WKEF-DT(51-1) Doesn't insert Local ad breaks into HD( the NBC Flag/peacock sections), WKRC-DT Cincinnati runs the CBS HD "It's all here" promo/demo reel instead of local ad inserts. I could be wrong, but I expect this will change fairly soon.

The debate over adding more sub-channels continues:

New Digital TV Rules Draw Fight

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040128/D80BHSVO0.html

Yes. Thanks for the link. FCC had said they were going to make a decision on this before Christmas, then it was just after Christmas, now it's 6-8 weeks .... I think this must carry thing is probably the last "big piece" of the DTV transisition puzzle to be set in stone .. Of course though, I also thought the Tuner mandate, and then the appeals court decision involving the DTV tuner mandate was the last big piece, too ...

Speaking of Subchannels -- I hate to say it, but I really can't say I've minded the SD subs from WHIO-DT/WDTN-DT the last few days, as the school closings/etc. haven't caused a drop from HD to SD on the HD sub -- It's been a little different on WCPO-DT Though ... Instead of ABC HD(when I've looked - All the Sun Night ABC HD for instance), when the school closings are up, it's school closings+SD ...My understanding is, once WCPO-DT moves into their new facilties, they'll have the ability to insert graphics into HD(That's probably a first for our area, I think).

Oh, as long as I'm posting, I also noticed last night when I checked, WLWT-DT had NBC HD, WKEF-DT didn't .. No big surprise there, really ----

I was reading the forums on HDTVoice.com where i came across the following:

"I just got off the phone with the Western Ohio Division. I've been told that we'll have the Super Bowl in HD in Dayton on channel 713. I sure hope the customer service rep knew what she was talking about!"

I haven't called to confirm, but if a CSR actually gave a channel to someone I'm pretty optimistic :)

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm in the TWC Western Ohio area and WHIO CBS IS NOW IN THE HIGH DEF LINEUP!!!!!!!!! It is available NOW on channel 707!

Just in time for the Super Bowl!!!!!!!

I checked and i have it too!!! The only question is, will it stay there after the superbowl??? We can only hope... Only ABC left if it stays!!!

Triple confirmed!

Now, if it will stay past the Superbowl, I'll be VERY happy...

I just spoke with a TW CSR and they said we will be receiving channel 707 just until Feb. 3rd... Contracts are still in negotiation... Better then nothing, i guess...

Well, that's disapointing we'll be losing it on Feb 3rd. I'm still VERY happy to have it for the Super Bowl. Hopefully this is an indication they are close on the contract.

On another subjuect, WKEF NBC, is it just me or are they lately forgetting to 'flip the switch' at all. It's been a while since I've seen ANY HD on WKEF lately. Is it a WKEF problem, or national? Anyone know?

I noticed last night that "Ed" was in 4:3, but Monday "Las Vegas" was in HD...

Wed Night, 1st 1/2 of West Wing was HD on WKEF-DT, at 9:30pm it switched to NBC West Coast Feed and NBC Nightly news .. There were reports in the programming area that this occured at the Philly NBC affiliate as well.

I haven't been Paying much attention to WKEF-DT(Too lazy to flip my A/B switch to my Dayton antenna), but if it helps, I noticed that the following programs The last few days were in HD on WLWT-DT, NBC Cincinnati:

ER
ED
Fri. Night Leno
Last night:
Tracy Morgan show
Whoopi
Law & Order

I don't recall any of those being in HD on WKEF. I'm pretty sure I saw ER, ED, TMS, and L&O in standard def. Not sure about th eother two.

WKEF seems to be VERY sloppy with HD.

Well, it was the usual poor PQ (macroblocking due to low bandwidth) from WHIO-DT for the Super Bowl tonight.

Some of the comments in the Super Bowl threads from others who were getting the game via Time Warner (instead of off-air pickup of Ch. 41 like I do) seemed to indicate they weren't getting the macroblocking.

Was the Time Warner feed for Western Ohio a direct pickup from CBS, or from WHIO, and if so, are they are getting some sort of feed not affected by the bandwidth bottleneck that is found in the Ch. 41 OTA signal?

It would have been nice if someone at WHIO could have responded to our emails. I get the impression they don't really care. I would like to know what their logic is on 41-2 and if they really feel it's a necessity.

This was WHIO's chance to impress us with CBS's HDTV... and they failed miserably. Even my wife, who is decidedly NOT a videophile, commented that she was not impressed at the picture. I'm sure the horrendous shots from the SD cameras, as well as the low bandwith, were to blame.

Way to go, WHIO. I bet a fair number of TWC HD subscribers now care less about carriage of your HD signal than before the Superbowl.

Yep. There was a slight bit of enhanced "tropo scatter" in air to the E/NE from my location last night, Much of the time I had Solid reception of WSYX-DT 13 Columbus, but WBNS-DT was so close to a lock(PSIP lock/Channel remapping did occur) much of the time it wasn't funny ... I Also had the first indication of signal I've seen here from what was likely WOSU-DT 38 getting through WOTH-LP Cincy -- About 25% of the way to a lock ...

Anyhow, I was hoping conditions would have improved enough by gametime that I could scrub the limited-bandwidth HD locals and watch on WBNS-DT, but alas, it just didn't quite happen.

For the most part compression artifact wise, I thought it DID look quite a bit better on WKRC-DT(moreso than usual even) than was the case on WHIO-DT, though.

I guess all we can do is keep trying. Maybe when 5,000 viewers or more tell them how disappointed they were with the artifacts during superbowl/etc, or when someone "higher up" on staff, or at Cox gets a HDTV and notices the problem+realizes it could look much better than that, they'll figure it out and do something about it ... At least, I hope so.

I watched WHIO HD on TWC, and i was very impressed with the quality. Some artifacting, but not enough to make me not care about CBS HD carriage on TW...

I watched the Super Bowl on WHIO through TWC and was disapointed with the PQ. It was nowhere near the quality that I see on Discovery HD Theater, for example (or even NBC).

Some shots looked better than others. It seems like some of the video from the cameras on the field were no better than SD. Very, Very poor. Some of the overhead shots were probably of the best quality. But again, even those weren't what I was expecting.

It was great to see the game in widescreen, and also with a somewhat higher PQ than regular cable, but it should have been MUCH, MUCH better.

Don't mean to change the subject but ...

I've noticed the last 3 days(including tonight starting at 6) WPTD-DT has been running all 4 SD services in addition to The PBS HD channel between 6pm-6am ...

I'm hoping it's just a temporary problem at the station with scheduling/switching the programming services/bandwidth around/etc .... Although, I do notice the program schedule on their website shows programming on ALL the subchannels, when usually it takes account for #2+4 being down when in HD mode ...

Obviously, compression artifacts are even more of a problem now than they ever have been before, so much so that as I'm checking 16-5 presently during Tracks ahead, and it's hard to tell whether or not they are sending 480p or HD ...

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Some of the comments in the Super Bowl threads from others who were getting the game via Time Warner (instead of off-air pickup of Ch. 41 like I do) seemed to indicate they weren't getting the macroblocking.

Of course, keep in mind, there is a whole slew of issues involved concerning how much of an issue this is with any given person and the display/display settings/decoding/encoding issues involved. As one example, although it's difficult for me to imagine, someone who is used to MPEG II artifacts, from say DBS or digital SD cable+hasn't seen 1080i HD video from CBS via MPEG II at 18mb/s might not realize it can and should look a lot better than what WHIO-DT is putting out. It's just a guess, but I'm guessing they are giving CBS HD something like 14~15Mb/s or so. Not enough for 1080i, when demanding source material(fast action, lots of detail/etc) is involved.


Originally posted by 1450kHz
Was the Time Warner feed for Western Ohio a direct pickup from CBS, or from WHIO, and if so, are they are getting some sort of feed not affected by the bandwidth bottleneck that is found in the Ch. 41 OTA signal?

Well, hopefully we'll get more PQ reports from Dayton/Western Ohio TW Subscribers, but so far, it seems like the TW folks are saying they were getting WHIO-DT --- I can only guess, since we probably won't find out from WHIO-DT or TW. It's probably a safe bet though that if local ad inserts/programming/promos/etc. were present at any time, then the CBS HD was from WHIO-DT facilities. Also, WHIO-DT has a "WHIO-DT 41 - Dayton/Springfield" ID bug that I've seen on 41-1 occasionally(not very often though, but I don't watch them very often) If viewers saw that during CBS HD there would be no doubt whatsoever ...

IF the CBS HD feed was coming from WHIO-DT, although I suppose it's possible, I highly doubt that TW viewers were getting any more bandwidth/bitrate for HD than what OTA viewers get - It SHOULD BE the same.

PRobably a lot more to it than the below, but the way I understand it is, CBS sends the HD feed to it's affiliates at much higher bitrate+using basically, a "propriatary" system. If WHIO-DT was sending the cableco something different, some seperate equipment(such as HD encoder - expensive) for OTA transmission and Cable, respectively would need to be used. I also believe There would also have to be a way to send the datastream/different programming sources(local/syndicated/Network SD/Network HD/etc) to the sepereate encoders which would be needed, which I believe is more complex than it might sound.

My understanding is, Usually what happens is, the affilate will send the close in Cableco(s) their DTV feed via Fiber(which comes just AFTER the encoder+before the necessary equipment for RF transmission), and Cable headends in outlying communties would receive the signal OTA just like we do -- I still wouldn't be surprised if the SD subchannel is used for this for "SD cable" instead of the analog, as especially when cableco headends are using OTA for the signal, improved quality would likely often result for SD cable viewers. I don't know how TW's "distribution" system works however, it might be a bit different than that with them.

Anyhow, Then, At the cableco, basically all/any of the necessary PSIP/ECC/etc(anything needed for OTA 8VSB transmission but not needed for cable transmission info is "stripped", then the signal is remodulated to QAM and sent over their system to their customers. With OTA DTV/HD, 19.34Mb/s is available for "use", and I don't recall the exact numbers, but it's something like approx. 18~19Mb/s or so is used for ECC/etc. for the harsher "envoirnment of OTA ATSC transmission/reception -- That is not needed for cable and would just be wasted bandwdith. There is actually, also a "High data rate mode" for ATSC that also works with cable -- It's called 16VSB, and supports 38mb/s - 8VSB can also be sent over cable "as is", but with a couple of exceptions, cablecos are currently using QAM modulation for HD. Now, while it's possible the cableco could process the MPEGII video further, They can't really change what's already been lost during encoding at the station ...


Originally posted by browerjs
Some artifacting, but not enough to make me not care about CBS HD carriage on TW...

Of course you would still want CBS HD ... That's not the issue here. It's quite a "complicated" issue actually that I'll barely touch on with the below(sorry for the length) ...

For much of the time(say during MOST CBS HD programming), compression artifacts aren't going to be all an issue if say, you're getting 15mb/s for CBS HD. However --- Some programming - specifically, only short periods when there is a lot of fast action detail is especially bandwidth demanding with 1080iHD, it requires(IMO anyway) the entire bandwidth possible -- as noted above --- 19.34Mb/s ... Although there has been talk of improved encoders that can do the same job with less ... I certianly haven't seen it yet .. Although I certianly hope it's true someday -- Seeing is believing. And I don't think it's really possible to squeeze much more out of MPEGII(which is what we are using as a standard -- our Receiver's/cable HD STB's won't work with anything else). In fact, ATSC(the organization that developed+Tested(thoroughly) the "standard" we are using for DTV/HD made some recommendations concerning HD/DTV bandwidth usage for HD. Where HD is concerned, this recommendation said a station could achieve good results PQ wise by sending ONE 1080i HD service or one 720p+ ONE 480i SD service.

Now, it's also true that 1080i HD doesn't need the entire 19.34Mb/s(actually it's something like a little over 18Mb/s available after Audio/PSIP data) MOST of the time -- and, when not needed, the "extra" bandwidth(often reffered to as "oppurtunistic bandwidth) can be allocated for other uses(such as datacasting or a weather radar subchannel that wouldn't allways need "real time" updating/etc). However, of course, IMO, since there ARE times when 1080i HD will Need the full 18mb/s(otherwise, very noticable compression artifacts will result) -- Anything else(besides audio/PSIP/CC data/etc) using "oppurtunistic bandwidth" should drop to "0" bandwidth usage during those times.

Uncompressed, keep in mind, HD is a bit over 1 Gigabit per second -- HD is being compressed using a lossy compression scheme for ATSC DTV usage with ratios at about 50:1, and just changing that a bit to say 51:1 or 52:1(or whatever) makes a BIG difference - Just as with JPG, there's a certian "point" where too much comression makes compression artifacts become very noticable and problematic -- That point varies depending upon the amount of detail/objects/etc, pretty much on a per frame basis ... From what I've seen(and evidently ATSC has seen as well), that point, given the most demanding of source material, for 1080i this point is just AT the amount of bandwidth Stations can send out. Which of course, makes sense, since they optimized the transmission system to both provide the most robustness of coverage service area(where FEC/ECC comes into play) while, at the same time supporting 1080i HD ...

Of course, equipment the station is using+how encoders are set up/etc. is also a big issue involved here. One method that can be used to allocate bandwidth on the fly is called "statistical multiplexing",(the DBS services use this for SD/HD extensively) ... So, on a per frame basis, bandwidth that isn't used by say, a cartoon on one subchannel can be used by another subchannel(such as the HD service. However, Given a "real time" programming service, I don't think this would work all that well for 1080i HD+1 subchannel(not 100% of the time, although it would likely be quite a improvement MUCH of the time), as the HD is occasionally going to need "everything", when the SD subchannel is also going to need at LEAST 2mb/s or so ...

Certianly however, as long as they don't try to squeeze even MORE subchannels in, in the future, as stations pay more attention to these things, they'll probably be able to tweak things a bit and produce better quality/less compression artifacts even given 1080i+1SD subchannnel .... UNTIL that happens though, IMO, although I'd rather see 1080i from, say CBS/WHIO-DT at 18mb/s(for HD video) -- I think, IF stations just absolutely HAVE to "squeeze the bandwidth" more than it should be, they NEED to be sending the ATSC format that best suits the bandwidth usage. For those that get OTA in this area, most would probably agree for example, that with ABC HD at 720p(probably needs about 15-16mb/s or so) from WDTN-DT -- There's enough room for ONE SD subchannel(which is what they are doing) without degrading HD PQ during demanding source material ... In fact, it still looks very good.

Also, of course, probably the biggest issue involved : While it's certianly understandable that stations want to make the MOST out of DTV(especially understandably so if there is a income generating aspect) -- I don't personally think there is room for "compromise" where Compression artifacts+HD quality are concerned .. And I personally think, since it is quite evident that stations, in some circumstances are not going to allocate enough bandwidth to HD(at least presently and for the forseeable future) -- Then I think Minimum bitrate standards for HD(SD/ED too for that matter), based on ATSC recommendations need to be implemented -- Whether it be implemented by the Networks involved -- Or the Gov't ... Probably won't happen, but I think it NEEDS to happen.

Another issue of course being that more and more, fewer and fewer people(at least in our area) have likely even SEEN what something like the Superbowl Should Look like at 1080i ... For instance, WLWT-DT Cincinnati is currently the ONLY Local station in Dayton/Cincinnati which is doing 1080i HD that gives it the bandwidth it needs ... PBS Wise, the only time we've seen "compression artifact free" 1080i HD in all it's glory was when WCET-DT cincinnati was giving HD everything .. Only during the first couple of months they were on air, and that was when they were running low power 7KW ERP with a 250 Watt solid state transmitter, which probably made it difficult to receive in most of the Dayton area ... And of course, from WLWT-DT we don't get a lot of NBC Programming that demonstrates this to it's "full effect" (2002 Winter Olympics, 2002/2003 Triple Crown is about it in the "most demanding of HD source programming ever shown on NBC catagory" ......

I think it's a very important issue(especially given what many of the local stations are doing), as it seems that in many cases, the stations just do not realize how BAD it looks when they aren't allocating enough bandwidth during HD and say, you can't even recognize Stephen Tyler when he is moving around too much/camera is panning around too much/etc because of the compression artifacts ..... I'm guessing They probably won't figure it out until the GM's(or big clients) +such get HD displays in their home, and actually watch their station -- and then only if they get to see what it "should look like" from some other source ......And then it might be too late in some circumstances as they might be tied into running seperate programming services, or Pay OTA subscription services, or datacasting which uses just more than oppurtunistic bandwidth, or provider to the cableco of services such as "PBS Kids"/etc/etc/etc.

Probably much more than you wanted to hear and hopefully it's clearer than mud ... but again, I think it's a very, very big and important issue ... And I think that it would be better if broadcasters figured it out now, instead of finding out the hard way .... I'd love to be wrong though .. It would certianly be great if HD would look as good with less bandwidth+more quality SD services could be added ....It won't be so great if all I'm left with is a overly compressed HD subchannel, or a 480i SD subchannel full of compression artifacts(with infomericals and such mostly), and my HD display+equipment will become useless unless I am forced to pay some riduculously high monthly fee (which I won't do), probably mostly for programming with a bunch of commericals in it ....

Now for some GOOD news:

"Gladiator" is scheduled for ABC HD tonight ... It's aired in ABC HD twice before, and I do recall that it was an EXCELLENT transfer/HD PQ, I don't quite recall if it aired in OAR previously but I *think* it did, at least the first time ... Of course there are some cuts, probably more than the first time it aired in HD over 2 Nights -- approx. 5 hrs total -- lots of commericals -- Its aired before in the same time slot as tonight, but I didn't catch that one ... Should be well worthwhile to check out on WDTN-DT for the HD PQ/DD 5.1 though, if OAR ...

TWC is still sending through WHIO-HD (i assume it is from WHIO considering it says so in the guide and we are getting the local news in SD on the channel)... I watched 3 shows in HD tonight (Yes Dear, Still Standing, and Raymond) and they were much better PQ then the superbowl. Basically the only problem i noticed during the game were when the switched from one HD camera to another. There would be a blocky picture at first, and then sort of "focus" in and look fine... During full action plays with the same camera, i had no problems with the PQ... and the shots from the top of the stadium down were stunning...

Hello to all in the thread again....I poked my head in last summer when I finally purchased our 50XBR800 and decided on one of the coldest days of the year to buy a HD300. Nothing like throwing a ladder up on the side of the house in signal digit weather to install a new dish...

Anyways, I managed to throw a pair of rabbit ears on the TV and was actually able to bring in all of the Dayton locals. I live in the 48 & 70 area North of town and was surprised that I was able to get that type of reception. When it warms up, I plan on actually installing an antennae, but for now, it is quite nice.

As far as the Superbowl, my wife and I were amazed at the picture, but did notice the blocking that took place between shots and during some fast movements. And yes, the SD cameras stuck out like a sore thumb. But overall, it was a great experience.

Thanks to 1450 to pointing out that WHIO doesn't pass 5.1. I sent them an e-mail anyways...

On a side note, does anyone else notice a shimmering effect that sometimes takes place on dark scenes or images on HDNet or Discover HT? Just curious if it was just me or a setting that I may have out of wack.

Thanks for all of the insight...I'm off to increase my TV viewing....

Mike

MNLang ... Stop in any time+thanks for sending WHIO a note. If nothing else, the more people they know are watching, the better ...

BTW, WDTN-DT is the only Commerical broadcaster in Cincy/Dayton which has DD 5.1 capability, currently. WPTD-DT has passed DD 5.1 on rare occasions(HD soundstage), WCET-DT(PBS) Cincinnati+WCVN-DT(KET/PBS) does DD 5.1 "when available" as well.

I'm wondering though ...A silly question -- What led you to believe you wouldn't be able to get good OTA reception so easily?

I certianly wish we could "guarentee" such easy reception when someone asks "what sort of antenna do I need", and will I get good reception/etc/etc ... But we can't because there are just so, so many variables involved -- Which leads us to be necessarily cautious about our replies on reception questions, especially those that come BEFORE a receiver/Antenna system is purchased ..

But --- as you can see, the truth is It can often work very, very well and quite easily with simple, indoor antennas if your not in a weak signal area or "signal hole" .. Which is good, since certianly Now is NOT the time to be working on outdoor antennas!

Oftentimes though, with indoor antennas especially it is often very important to find a "sweet spot" to put the antenna in, or it might be necessary to adjust it a bit to get best results from different stations ... One big thing that helps us in Dayton is, that except for WWRD-LP 55 Analog, all the Stations are broadcasting from the same "Antenna farm" ....

"And yes, the SD cameras stuck out like a sore thumb."

Were they using SD cameras for some of the handheld shots from the field? I noticed some of those shots looking especially bad. If they were SD cameras, why was it still in 16x9 instead of 4x3? Sorry if a stupid question.

Jeff -

What led you to believe you wouldn't be able to get good OTA reception so easily?

No reason except for my extreme skepticism...

Heck, I even didn't have to work at aiming my dish over the weekend. I literally set the alignments, aimed it roughly from memory over the horizon and managed to nail it on the first dry. On my original 18 inch dish, I remember having a hell of time aligning it.

Vader -

Were they using SD cameras for some of the handheld shots from the field? I noticed some of those shots looking especially bad. If they were SD cameras, why was it still in 16x9 instead of 4x3? Sorry if a stupid question.

I honestly don't have a clue...I imagine that they still framed everything in 16x9 because even the HD 16x9 was cropped to 4x3 for the standard signal.

Mike

No such thing as a stupid question here ...

Yes, they were using SD cameras for the handheld shots -- So far the norm for any Live sports in HD when handheld "roving cameras" are used/needed ... as Until very,very recently, there was no such thing as a wireless HD camera(The ONE CBS had for the superbowl this year is the only one I know of - Bob Ross of CBS posted about it on one of the pre-superbowl threads in programming area ... Lots of other great info like that can be found "scattered" about on AVSforum) ......

SD can be 16x9, too. some examples:

Many SD cams have a 16x9 setting. 16x9 "anamoprhic" DVD's are SD, Fox Widescreen(or "ED") is distributed to it's affiliates as 480i 16x9 NTSC video(another way of saying "anamoprhic" SD), which is usually deinterlaced at the station and sent out using the 480p 16x9 ATSC format. WXIX-DT Cincinnati, and some other Fox stations do something a little different, as they upconvert the Widescreen Fox programming to 1080i for broadcast. Some Fox stations upconvert to 720p for broadcast. Of course, WRGT-DT Fox Dayton doesn't even send us Fox widescreen ...

About WKEF NBC, I'm still not seeing any HD on it. Tonight's Frasier is in SD. It's been over a week since I've noticed any HD on WKEF. Is someone asleep at the switch or what?!

Since it has been so long with no NBC HD, I'm wondering if maybe they are having some sort of problem/issue other than just flipping the switch. Hopefully, we can find out. I just sent a note concerning the missing HD as of late to the "Technical Questions" email address on their website, I've had good results using this method in the past :

engineering@wrgt45.com

You can also call them, contact info for them here:

http://www.nbc22.com/feedback/index.htm

Calling the newsroom+asking to be transferred to engineering/control room(or ask them to pass the message along to (ask nicely) - "please send us NBC HD" is usually the most benifical thing for "on demand" service ... Of course, if something else is wrong that they're probably working on, "flipping the switch" ain't going to fix the problem ...

I'll post if I find out anything, I'll post .... if anyone else finds out anything, please post ...

-----------------------

On another issue, I came across a excellent article (here: http://www.tvtechnology.com/dlrf/one.php?id=313 ) concerning Cable Carriage of DTV/HD signals from local broadcasters .... It also contains some excellent comments/info on bandwidth allocation .... IF I had seen this yesterday, I wouldn't have needed to post such a loonng post on the issue farther above .... for example, here's a quote from the article:

"Most broadcasters will want to use the majority of their 19.3 Mbps data bandwidth for critical HDTV programming such as the Super Bowl or Olympics. The TV engineers reading this report already know this, but for some reason many non-technical reports on the debate miss this point."
:end quote

I wish there was a way to get the information contained in above quote to whomever is necessary at WHIO-DT in a manner which would do some good(If there is anyone like that) -- and for that matter, all the local stations in the area which are "squeezing HD bandwidth" too much ... I do think though that for the most part, 720p such as WDTN-DT is doing is fine alongside 1 SD subchannel -- probably around 15-16mp/s or so, although certianly even in 720p's case, I certianly wouldn't mind 19mb/s ....

I did send an email to engineering@wrgt45.com Monday but got no response. So earlier tonight I sent another one to programming@wrgt45.com.

Hopefully one of us will get an answer.

Here's another one I've used before too which has worked -- This one is for DTV "issues" at any sinclair owned/operated station(sinclair owns WKEF-DT+operates WRGT-DT under a Local marketing agreement) :

dtv@sbgi.net

BTW, I've noticed that they have both WKEF-DT+ WRGT-DT listed on their site as "HD-ready" at the following page .... As we know, WRGT-DT doesn't give us Fox widescreen, but With any luck, perhaps they'll have FOX HD next fall:

http://www.sbgi.net/business/markets/dayton.shtml

------------------------------------

I actually called WKEF and asked to be transferred to engineering earlier tonight when i noticed Whoopie wasn't being broadcast in HD (eventhough i had no intention in watching it or any of the other sitcoms on tonight)... All i got was the guy's voicemail... :(

On another note, are all the TWC customers still getting channel 707 WHIO-HD? I know I am... they told me it would be turned off on 2/3/04 so we'll see if it's still there tomorrow...

NBC/WKEF-DT HD Update: Oops! Looks like it might me a national issue for tonight as noone is reporting getting NBC HD tonight -- I just checked WLWT-DT+sure enough L&O SVU is SD(they pretty much NEVER mess up) :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=361739

Browerjs:

I haven't called them in quite a while, but Did you call the Newsroom number? That's the only place you'll be able to get hold of anyone directly after busniess hours ... If you ask the receptionist/etc. to ask the control room to pass HD -- Hopefully the message will get passed on (It's worked before anyway) ... Of course, it wouldn't help too much tonight, since NBC doesn't appear to be sending HD anyhow .... See how fun this can be ;-)

I know, it's a PITA, but it's a PITA for them too ... Sooner or later they will figure out there are people out here who are watching and CARE about watching HD ... Only way to let them know we're out here watching(presently anyway) is to contact them ...

--------------------------------------------------------

WPTD-DT Update: Oh yes --- WPTD-DT is back to "normal" -- HD+2 SD subs now ... On the positive side ... PBS sure looks a lot better now than last few nights with HD+4 SD subs! Thanks thinkTV folks for fixing the problem !

----------------------------

WKEF-DT update : At 11:45pm, Tonight show HD on WLWT-DT --- SD on WKEF-DT .... (noticed same thing last night as well ...)

Yeek. I hope WKEF gets their act together before Daytona, as right now I can't get WLWT as a backup.

Oh, and fie on WHIO-DT for stinking up the Super Bowl with your multicast. Channel 7, you stink. :mad:

Time to look for a place on top of a hill with a clear shot to Columbus.....:D

I checked WKEF again last night during West Wing, and again it was not in HD... I called the news room, asked for engineering... they asked me who was calling and i told them that the HD needed to be switched on... She responded with "Those people aren't here right now", so i told her if she could find someone who could look into the problem that I'd appreciate it... During West Wing it never switched over... Did anyone notice if it switched later in the evening?

Thanks for trying ... There's not much more you can do than that, although you might want to contact TW too .. I'll send a note to Sinclair concerning the "problem", and see if that does any good ...

No HD for Leno on WKEF-DT last night, HD from WLWT-DT Cincinnati ...

Funny thing, on their 2nd day of operation (2/9/02) I noticed that WLWT-DT had Winter Olympics in HD, SD on WKEF-DT(WKEF-DT did have HD for the opening ceremonies the night before, however) ... So I called them, and also received the same response --- "Those people aren't there" .... Nevertheless, in this case, however --- a few minutes later HD appeared on WKEF-DT ...

While it is true that some stations are quite automated, there still would be a tech on duty ....Furthermore, unless something has changed recently(that's not working), WKEF-DT doesn't have automated switching to/from the NBC HD feed .... Someone manually has to "flip a switch" ...

Update: Oh --- also sent WKEF-DT's CE a note concerning the WKEF-DT HD issue ... on previous occasions, either he, or another enginner has been good about replying, so hopefully that will be the case this time as well ... I also sent him a signal report for WRCX-LP 40, as I noticed he is shown on their "license to Cover"app as the consulting engineer, the app just popped up at FCC site today(I'm not sure, but acrobat reader may be required to see this) -- Which is good, because I've been trying to find a way to contact WRCX +let them know that I appreciate their signal being on the air again :

http://svartifoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/cdbsmenu.hts?context=25&appn=100972435&formid=347&fac_num=69535

Originally posted by browerjs
I checked WKEF again last night during West Wing, and again it was not in HD... I called the news room, asked for engineering... they asked me who was calling and i told them that the HD needed to be switched on... She responded with "Those people aren't here right now", so i told her if she could find someone who could look into the problem that I'd appreciate it... During West Wing it never switched over... Did anyone notice if it switched later in the evening?

:) NBC network did not send the West Wing down in HD last night. The only thing that was on the HD signal was NBC News. I do not know who you talk to in the Newsroom but we have a Engineer here until 11:30 each night. I will make sure the the Newsroom knows that when a viewer calls in to make sure Master Control is told. As for Jay Leno last night our Master Control operator did not switch it to HD. We are currently switching our HD signal manually, we are working on not only automating the NBC 22 HD but get the FOX 45 HD up and running. We have just received new equipment to make this happen. I will stay on top of our M/C operators to make sure all HD shows are in HD.

Roland,

WOW! you don't know what great news it is to hear WRGT-DT is going to do Fox HD!

Thanks for the info and great to see you here! I'm sure everyone is very pleased that you are particpating on AVS. Feel free to join us at any time!

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Roland,

WOW! you don't know what great news it is to hear WRGT-DT is going to do Fox HD!

Thanks for the info and great to see you here! I'm sure everyone is very pleased that you are particpating on AVS. Feel free to join us at any time!

I second that!

Welcome to AVS. Thanks for the great news.

Roland..
Welcome and thanks for posting. Helps us all. Maybe I could trouble you with a nagging question: Why do you run a subchannel that duplicates the main channel in 480i? (51-2). Noticed all of the Dayton DTs do that, but none of the Cincinnati DTs do.

Ok, two questions: do you ever plan to remap to 22-1?

Thanks
Doc

So when the new HD equipment is installed for WRGT, will FOX Widescreen EDTV began to be broadcast? Or is this totally different equipment?

For those that haven't read it, there's some excellent info on the System/Equipment Fox will be using to send HD to its affiliates at the following thread - A recent post of info from a recent article on the 3rd page of thread is especially interesting :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=359708&pagenumber=1

------------------

Roland,

Also, if there is anything we can ever help You with, just let us know!

--------------------------

Update 10:30pm -- I could see where Master Control ops at WKEF-DT could be frustrated at times with NBC HD too! (I do hope NBC sends them a memo though) ...

Anyhow -- No HD for ER from WLWT-DT or WKEF-DT as of 10:35 EST ... Obviously a national issue (maybe to prevent another "nipplegate") according to this thread in Programming area:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3332242#post3332242

As I noted there in my post there though, seems like NBC could have at least dropped the "available in HD" banner at beginning ...

So HD capability is coming soon to WRGT-DT? Excellent!:cool:

At 11:50pm EST -- Tonight Show HD on WLWT-DT, SD on WKEF-DT ...

Update: 12:30 -- Well, don't know if it's a NBC issue or not(assuming it is) but WLWT-DT dropped to SD "Tonight Show" sometime between 23:50 and 00:30, as its SD on both WLWT-DT/WKEF-DT at 00:30~00:35 ...

Anyone heard if CBS on TWC is permanent? Someone said it was only supposed to be through Feb 3rd, but I've still got it as of now (Fri, Feb 6, 5:45p).

I hope it is permanent. Atleast let's hope it stays until after the Grammys Sunday!

"ED" HD on WKEF-DT at 9pm! :-)

SD on WLWT-DT :-(

When I called TWC last Friday the CSR said that it was only gonna be till Feb 3rd... but i still I have it as well... I'm afraid to call and ask them about it though cause i don't want them to zap my box... :)

It looks like WKEF has Third Watch in HD as well...

PQ on WDTN seems to be holding up well during the NHL all-star game despite all the motion. All cams appear to be HD except for the under-ice cam at center and the goal cams.

Grammy's don't seem to be in HD on WHIO... I called and they said they weren't supposed to be, checked the CBS website and it said it was supposed to be... Gonna try calling again

browerjs,

Can you post their phone # and I will call them also!

I'll call them also. What's the number?

I just found their #. Some female answered and I asked to speak with someone in engineering. She said they were not available. I asked her if they planned on broadcasting the Grammy's in HD...she said, they are really bust trying to cover breaking news and that they would check on it later. Like I said earlier....I HATE WHIO!!!!

781-0323...

Mine just switched over to HD at 8:15pm!

Guess they didn't get the "memo" on one of the premier HD broadcasts of the year ... sigh ...

Anyhow --- Cool -- Grammys in HD On WHIO-DT at 8:12pm -- you guys beat me to it, Thanks ... I need to write the number down instead of going to their website .... Sometimes when I've called them on previous occasions, I've asked them to pass the message to the control room(which worked within minutes), and sometimes I'm pretty sure the control room guy actually answered the phone, as it switched to HD within seconds, about the time he said "thanks" ....

BTW - Grammies on WKRC-DT Cincy at 8pm sharp .... Sometimes when I've called WHIO, when they say "are you sure that's HD" or whatever ... I've had to note that the programming was HD on another station(when it is of course .. That's what I have to go by) ...

I called again as well, and it switched a couple minutes later... just in time for Dave Matthews :)

Originally posted by DrDon
Roland..
Welcome and thanks for posting. Helps us all. Maybe I could trouble you with a nagging question: Why do you run a subchannel that duplicates the main channel in 480i? (51-2). Noticed all of the Dayton DTs do that, but none of the Cincinnati DTs do.

Ok, two questions: do you ever plan to remap to 22-1?

Thanks
Doc

We now have all the equipment to pass what ever FOX feeds us. Up till now we did not have a up-converter for the FOX station so we had to pass only our SD signal. We now have a new Digital switcher and a up-converter that we will be able to connect to our automation system. We switch our HD signal for NBC manually. With the new system, FOX 45 will switch automatically (NO more Master Control operator error). We will be getting the same equipment for the NBC station. It may take us a week or two to get it all installed.
Question two: Yes we are going to move our Digital channel to our old Analog channel.

Wow, sounds like WKEF/WRGT are putting the rest of Sinclair to shame in the DTV and HD efforts. :D

rjm..
My apologies. Guess I wasn't clear, but I do thank you for the information. What I was trying to ask is, "Why the duplicate subchannels?" 51-1 and 51-2 are essentialy the same programming. For 1080i live events, such as "The Tonight Show," the upcoming Daytona 500, and the Olympics, I'd think allocationg the full 19.3MBs to just one digital channel would produce a better HDTV picture.

Question two was in regards to the remapping function available in the digital channel's PSIP. Currenty, WKEF-DT does not employ remapping; the station registers on ATSC receivers as 51-1 and 51-2. WDTN-DT, on the other hand, appears as 2-1 and 2-2. I was just wondering if you plan to leave remapping "off."

Again, thanks for your time and trouble. You've rapidly become a hero in these parts <g>.

Doc

I did happen to notice late Saturday night/early Sunday morning 51-1 and 51-2 did have different programming on. IMO, that's a bonus when there isn't an HD broadcast on 51-1. Otherwise, I think we're all in agreement here that duplicating the same programming doesn't seem to make sense, especially when it steals bandwidth and picture quality from HD.

Paul

Originally posted by rjmartel
We now have all the equipment to pass what ever FOX feeds us..

Does this mean we'll get FOX ED 480p broadcasts now (hopefully in time for 24 tomorrow night)? And are you feeding that signal to Time Warner Cable for broadcast on Channel 745?

I believe Roland indicated it would be a week or two before they get everything installed ...This isn't like upgrading a video card in your PC .... So, I'm sure he's quite busy with quite a task on hand to accomplish ... From previous reports on this thread, I believe TW 745 Dayton is WRGT-DT ....

Since Roland had said they'll be able to send whatever Fox sends them, I assume they will be sending us 16x9 "Fox Widescreen" programming, like WXIX-DT Cincinnati does. WXIX-DT upconverts to 1080i for broadcast, Don't know which 16x9 ATSC format WRGT-DT will be using ... Some stations deinterlace the 480i 16x9 601 Video sent by Fox +send at 480p 16x9 ATSC format, some upconvert to 720p, some upconvert to 1080i ....

This Fall, Fox will begin using 720p for Fox HD, and according to reports, Fox will be installing the equipment needed for 720p HD at the affiliates beginning next month ... Also, from what I gather, Their Network distribution center probably won't be ready to send 720p until this fall ...

Hopefully, WRGT-DT won't have a aspect ratio formatting/switching between Fox+local/syndicated programming "issue" with the 16x9 601 video for Fox programming(Fox adds sidebars at network level for 4x3 programming) as has been the case on occasion in the past at WXIX-DT -- Which is a problem Cincinnati area members sometimes refer to as "weirdscreen". It's 480i 16x9 NTSC Video sent by Fox(again, with sidebars added to 4x3 Fox programming when necessary)-- Or in other, less precise terms, 480i "anamorphic" video --- Just like so-called "anamorphic" DVD's ...

Presently, it's actually the same feed from Fox used for both 4x3 SD+16x9, but a 4x3 center cut occurs on the Fox supplied receiver used to feed 4x3 NTSC/ATSC plants(called Receiver A). This center cut doesn't happen on something Fox calls "receiver C", which is used by stations(such as WXIX-DT) which can pass Fox Widescreen at 16x9 via a 16x9 ATSC format to it's viewers ...

More info on How Fox Widescreen works(Including from engineers at other fox affiliates) at the following thread :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=2101544#post2101544

-------------------------------------------------

Update(10:50pm): Murphy must be running around in Dayton again as WHIO-DT (apparently) just went off air in the past 10~15 minutes or so ... In the Middle of HD CSI Miami ....

I've been communicating with the Director of Marketing for Time Warner Cable via email and i wanted to pass along these answers i received.

Q: 1. Is channel 707 (WHIO-HD) here for good in our area, I was told that it was only for the Super Bowl but everyone seems to still have it?

A: It was only for the Super Bowl. We do have permission to leave them until March 3rd. We do not have a contract with them at this time.

Q: 2. When can we expect to see WDTN-HD (ABC)?

A: That depends on the progress of both corporate office negotiations ... unfortunately, no clear-cut answer.

Q: 3. Is there any timeframe that we may see some other HD Channels (ESPNHD, HDNET, HDMovies, etc.)

A: Again, under negotiations for ESPNHD-- The Nets will probably be added within the next thirty-days

Q: 4. When will we be able to get the HD DVR box.

A: No actual date -- end of first quarter is as close as we can get to a date

5. Any other HD plans that are in the near future.

A: not at this time

Might as well buy an ATSC box, eh?:)

Originally posted by Paul210
I did happen to notice late Saturday night/early Sunday morning 51-1 and 51-2 did have different programming on. IMO, that's a bonus when there isn't an HD broadcast on 51-1. Otherwise, I think we're all in agreement here that duplicating the same programming doesn't seem to make sense, especially when it steals bandwidth and picture quality from HD.
Paul

Yes, they've done that every saturday night(after SNL) that I've noticed ... NBC Nat'l feed on 51-1, simulcast of WKEF 22 on 51-2 ...

I'm pretty much in agreement with you, with the exception noted farther below ... Also, if WHIO-DT has to have 41-2, I wish they could put "UPN 44" on it ...

But I don't mind the duplicate programming on the SD subchannel IF it doesn't reduce HD quality(which is a big IF) ... I don't have any problems with WDTN-DT(at 720p) for instance, and I haven't so far had any problems with WKEF-DT -- For whatever reason. WHIO-DT/WKRC-DT(as compared to WBNS-DT columbus during SEC HD football) and the PBS stations in the area are the only ones I've noticed a problem with "bit starved HD"(WCPO-DT Cincy too back when they were sending 1080i -- It's fine now they are sending 720p) ....

During 2002 HD winter Olympics+2002 Triple crown races for instance, I closely compared HD from WKEF-DT to HD from WLWT-DT and there was really no noticable difference to speak of. 51-2 may have been lower bitrate back at that time, though. Heck though, NBC HD from 51-1/WKEF-DT even looked better than WLWT-DT HD back last fall when WLWT had the radar sub up(I even saw problems with compression artifacts from WLWT-DT during "fast action" scenes in "ER" during that time).

Anyhow, Daytona 500 should be a excellent chance to do a current comparison, between WLWT-DT/WKEF-DT HD, especially since WLWT-DT currently gives HD everything.

Also --- as I posted earlier, another time I don't mind the duplicate programming is when a broadcaster wishes to fullfill their public service obligations+broadcast info on the SD sub which(at this time anyway) would require them to drop from HD on the HD subchannel .... A couple of weeks ago when we had that bad weather, WDTN/WHIO had weather bugs/school closings up on the analog/SD subchannels -- But Neither WDTN/WHIO dropped from HD on the HD sub ...What would have happened if the SD sub wasn't there+we had an "emergency" situation during the superbowl? I doubt they have the equipment to insert these sorts of graphics(besides a logo/ID bug) on the HD subchannel -- WCPO-DT Cincinnati DID drop from HD to SD for the logos --- Every Sunday night program(alias/practice/etc) was SD with weather bugs/school closings on WCPO-DT, but ABC HD remained throughout on 2-1 with the school closings on 2-2 ....

browerjs, can you give me the email address you were using to contact the Director of Marketing for Time Warner Cable? I would like to be another voice in his ear that we really want CBS, ABC, ESPNHD, etc.

duggan.kowalski@twcable.com

Originally posted by DrDon
Might as well buy an ATSC box, eh?:)

If only set manufacturers would have started putting ATSC receivers in all, or at least most sets(the big ones anyway) back in 99~2000(or thereabouts), these guys(in Dayton anyway), for the most part could hook up a $2 antenna and be good to go to enjoy all the fine CBS(Broadcast by WHIO since fall 2001)+ABC HD(Broadcast by WDTN-DT since Jan 2003) ... Of course, if that would have happened, by now the things would probably cost just a tad bit more than NTSC tuner does(pennies+the royalties to Zenith of course) ...... Certianly around the same as a $29 DVD player I'd think, probably less ...

Even though --- Heck, my ATSC receivers have already paid for themselves as compared to cable/dbs subscription costs anyway. $400~600 per year of cable/DBS subscription costs = ATSC tuner(and antenna too probably) which will last for years and years, and depending upon antenna+location will probably pick up HD from stations you can't get on cable anyway(such as WEBN fireworks in HD from WKRC-DT Cincinnati) ....

Depending upon how long it takes for TW Dayton to get ABC/CBS HD --- It would be interesting to know how many folks will be willing to hook up a $2 antenna to those new sets with ATSC receivers(I'm guessing most will probably be digital cable "plug&play" ready too) already in them, once the Tuner mandate starts going into effect ...

Unfortunately I live about 60 miles north of Dayton so I'm not sure OTA would easily work for me.

I believe I said "these guys (in Dayton)" ....

I haven't heard of anyone who has used DTV up that way yet, but I do know of many in the Celina area who USED to use OTA for reception of Ft Wayne and Dayton analog stations ....But yeah, it usually took a good antenna system, as I'd expect to be the case now with DTV ... Then again though, Doc is some 60 miles from Dayton towers down in N KY, and gets the Dayton stations with an antenna in his attic ....

My point was, you could try it without having to go to "extra expense" of purchasing a DTV receiver if the DTV receiver was already in your set .... Which will soon be the case, as FCC has mandated DTV receivers start going into sets, on a phase in basis beginning with 1/2 of sets 36" and above on July 1, 2004..... by 2007, it includes all 13" sets .... Many, most, if not all of these sets will also likely be "digital cable ready" .... and it won't take long before the costs of the receivers go way, way down since they will be mass produced in the millions and millions and millions ....

Originally posted by Vader
Unfortunately I live about 60 miles north of Dayton so I'm not sure OTA would easily work for me. I know the transmission pattern is a little different, but I'm not exactly in Dayton, either:D

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Even though --- Heck, my ATSC receivers have already paid for themselves as compared to cable/dbs subscription costs anyway. $400~600 per year of cable/DBS subscription costs = ATSC tuner(and antenna too probably) which will last for years and years, and depending upon antenna+location will probably pick up HD from stations you can't get on cable anyway(such as WEBN fireworks in HD from WKRC-DT Cincinnati) ....

Problem is I want cable stations so an ATSC tuner renders itself worthless the second that TWC carries CBS/ABC... I actually ran out to Best Buy this evening trying to pick up the Samsung T150 (i think that's the model) that i saw two weeks ago on clearance for 200 bucks, but of course they were out and it's a discontinued model, so my only option was a $350 Open Box Samsung T161... I'd try getting a T150 on ebay but problem is how do i know a cheap antenna will do the trick for me cause i don't want to spend the extra money on a good one or have to mount it outside... (Anyone know of anyone trying to sell of a cheap ATSC tuner :) )

Nitewatchman,

I know you said "these guys (in Dayton)", I was just lamenting that "unfortunately, I'm not near Dayton" so I don't have that option, but I wish I did.

Originally posted by browerjs
Problem is I want cable stations so an ATSC tuner renders itself worthless the second that TWC carries CBS/ABC...

Not necessarily ... You might find a use for it on a TV not hooked up to cable(They'll work at 480i with old analog TV's too - as long as it at least has composite inputs), or if you can put up a decent enough antenna, unless you have terrain issues, it's fairly likely that you should be able to pull in The Cincinnati stations+have a "backup" when the Dayton stations forget to flip the switch(or run alternate programming such as UD basketball/etc) ....or for rare, local HD such as WKRC-DT's WEBN fireworks in HD(They used the production truck used by MNF last year). Or, someone else would probably want it for a bit of a discount after you're done with it ... .... Or, you might move+HD isn't available over cable again .. It's not like it's going to just "stop working", once it's paid for its paid for, there are no monthly subscription fees ... I can't imagine not being able to find some sort of use for it ...

As far as antennas go, a $30-50 yagi or Bowtie is about the best your going to get ... Just because an antenna is "expensive" doesn't make it better, that's especially true when you are talking about snake oil antennas that look more like a scuplture than an antenna ....

As I've said before, with the luck we HD viewers have sometimes though, as soon as you buy the thing, they'll start carrying ABC/CBS HD on TW ... Just keep in mind ... WHIO-DT has been on the air with CBS HD since 2001 ... WDTN-DT with ABC HD since Jan. of last Year ... No telling how many days, months, or years it might be before either are carried on TW .. we heard over a year ago that TW Dayton would carry WHIO-DT/WDTN-DT "soon" ....

-----------------------------------------------

Vader,

I wasn't trying to give you a hard time --- Just clarifying that's all ...

Certianly it probably wouldn't be too easy, unless perhaps you could get a decent antenna up outdoors ...you're already likely in a high, flat spot ... WDTN-DT transmitting antenna is non-directional, WHIO-DT's pattern should be very good to the north .... Indoors, and often especially in the attic is One of the worst places(anywhere indoors ain't so great really) for an antenna ... but again, Doc is 60 miles from Dayton towers and is getting the Dayton stations with an antenna in his attic ... YMMV of course ...

Originally posted by browerjs
... I actually ran out to Best Buy this evening trying to pick up the Samsung T150 (i think that's the model) that i saw two weeks ago on clearance for 200 bucks, but of course they were out and it's a discontinued model, so my only option was a $350 Open Box Samsung T161...

I wish I would have known about that T-150. I thought those boxes were long gone. I bought a display model almost two years ago that ended up costing me $200 after rebate. Best $200 I ever spent. I wouldn't mind having another one just to hook up to a 20" analog TV in the bedroom. The T-150 is a little quirky at times but well worth it for that kind of price.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman


As far as antennas go, a $30-50 yagi or Bowtie is about the best your going to get ... Just because an antenna is "expensive" doesn't make it better, that's especially true when you are talking about snake oil antennas that look more like a scuplture than an antenna ....

Does an antenna like this need to be mounted outside/attic? I want an indoor one that i can hopefully sit right on top of the box.

As I've said before, with the luck we HD viewers have sometimes though, as soon as you buy the thing, they'll start carrying ABC/CBS HD on TW ... Just keep in mind ... WHIO-DT has been on the air with CBS HD since 2001 ... WDTN-DT with ABC HD since Jan. of last Year ... No telling how many days, months, or years it might be before either are carried on TW .. we heard over a year ago that TW Dayton would carry WHIO-DT/WDTN-DT "soon" ....

I'm probably gonna give Time Warner another month or two before I purchase an ATSC tuner because as soon as CBS starts their all HD golf broadcasts, I know that I won't be able to handle missing that on a week-to-week basis!

Browerjs,

You could mount an antenna anywhere you can find a spot for it ... A multielement Yagi/multibay bowtie probably isn't going to work well for you in your "living area", due to the size ... Outside is usually best ..... As I believe I said before, from indoors, near a window that faces the towers is often best .... You never know, but I wouldn't count on being able to put it on the settop and have it work, unless top of your set just happens to be in a "sweet spot" for reception of the Dayton stations --- It's often important to find a "sweet spot" for the antenna, especially with indoor antennas ... There are so many variables involved, hard to say with any certianty what you'll need, and how easy it will be to get reception ... That's why we say YMMV ...Chances are good, given your location it will probably work fairly easily, though ... If you want to move a step up from the $2 folded dipole antenna I mentioned earlier in the thread, something like the "Silver Sensor"(You could put this on the settop, but again you might need to find a better spot for reception --- do a search, you'll find lots of info on it) might be a good idea for you....

Lots of great info on antennas + reception here:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Dr.Don,

My Samsung TS160 maps WKEF's channels as 22-1, 22-2

Hello all, my first post on this forum. I recently purchased my first HDTV from HHGREGG by the Dayton Mall. It is a Hitachi model T600 with the built in HD tuner. The problem is I am having trouble getting good , consistent reception through an indoor(attic) antenna. The antenna I bought was a powered RCA with rabbit ears and two adjustable signal amps, It really is an annoyance when one day I'll be getting in 51-1 great with a ~85 signal and the next day nothing, well ~30 at best. I really don't know much about OTA antennas since I am usually a sat man, so any help would be great. So one other thing, am I stupid or was thee Superbowl, the Grammy's and everything else on 41-1 only in 2.0? I love watching movies on 2-1 in 720p with 5.1 audio. Thanks for any insight and its nice to stumble onto such a good resource of local HD nerds like myself.

Originally posted by parrot1
My Samsung TS160 maps WKEF's channels as 22-1, 22-2 Interesting. Neither my Samsung T-151 nor my Zenith 1080 remap WKEF-DT. The annoying thing is that DirecTV's APG assigns 22-1 to WKEF-DT. But tune to the placeholder and you get nothing but the program information. Tune to 51-1 and you get WKEF-DT but, naturally, no program information. I have the same issue with WHIO-DT and WRGT-DT. Does your STB remap those? WDTN-DT and WPDT-DT both remap to 2-X and 16-X respectively on both of my STBs.

Doc

Originally posted by browerjs
So when the new HD equipment is installed for WRGT, will FOX Widescreen EDTV began to be broadcast? Or is this totally different equipment?

YES:D With the new equipment we will pass what FOX network sends us.

Roland, Tonight show looked great in HD on WKEF-DT last night, looking foward to Daytona 500 in HD!

----------------------------
All,

Neither of my receivers will remap WHIO-DT, WKEF-DT or WRGT-DT either, which I personally like ... On one of them(DTC-100) I can actually turn off the remapping for all channels, I wish I could do it with my other receiver as well ... Would probably be a pain though on sat/OTA receivers that are "adding" the placeholders as blank, if you can't get rid of them, or the program guide won't "sync" ...

Anyhow, I'd assumed WHIO-DT/WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT weren't sending channel remapping info via PSIP, but that's just an assumption. I've also heard somewhere that some receivers may use info in the program stream instead of via PSIP to remap channels, also, perhaps some sat/OTA receivers might be able to do it with the EPG info from the sat and some not.

Originally posted by jbh613
The problem is I am having trouble getting good , consistent reception through an indoor(attic) antenna. The antenna I bought was a powered RCA with rabbit ears and two adjustable signal amps, It really is an annoyance when one day I'll be getting in 51-1 great with a ~85 signal and the next day nothing, well ~30 at best. I really don't know much about OTA antennas since I am usually a sat man, so any help would be great. So one other thing, am I stupid or was thee Superbowl, the Grammy's and everything else on 41-1 only in 2.0? I love watching movies on 2-1 in 720p with 5.1 audio. Thanks for any insight and its nice to stumble onto such a good resource of local HD nerds like myself.

WHIO-DT (41-1) doesn't have the capabilty to send DD 5.1 ... I think the Only stations that do in Dayton are WDTN-DT (2-1), and WPTD-DT (16-5). I haven't seen WPTD-DT pass DD 5.1 all that often, just One HD soundstage last summer ...

On your reception issues, If you're in Kettering, you're very close to the towers, so hopefully it shouldn't be too difficult for you to improve your reception. Lots of different things might be causing your problem, many factors can be involved ... for one thing, the amplifier on your antenna might be getting overloaded and that might be causing you some problems. Something like a nearby FM transmitter can even overload the amp(which is very broadband)+cause difficulties. Something somewhat along these lines might explain why your seeing good reception one day+not the next ...If it helps, Unless they are having problems or are doing maintenance/etc, stations don't change the amount of power/etc they are sending out .... So, if nothing else, You might want to try adjusting the amps to the "low setting".

Finding a "sweet spot" to place your antenna+properly orient your antenna may also be of great beneifit -- It often is the most important issue involved. Also, You might have better results from indoors if you take the antenna out of the attic, and instead place it near a window that faces the towers(you might find another good spot too). I believe that is a "settop" type of antenna, you might also get better results from the attic if you mount a higher gain, directional antenna in the attic -- such as a outdoor antenna ... For best results however, mount the antenna outdoors+aim it towards the Dayton Towers(roughly West-southwest or so of your location).

If you're going to have antenna in attic, Might sound silly, but it might be useful for you to carry up a small TV+your DTV receiver into the attic with you+"optimize" your antenna's orietnation/posistion/etc. Moving it just a little bit to right or left/etc. can make a world of difference ... Of course, you(when you are in the attic), and anything else near the antenna(including the roof) will be somewhat "connected" to the antenna and therefore will effect reception ....

Although Terrestrial reception can and often will work from indoors --- basically+fundamentally speaking from a "antenna" standpoint --- Satellite+OTA are the same ... a Sat dish is an antenna too ... It's just a bit different "design" on the recieving antenna, and the transmitter is up in the sky instead of on a high tower on the ground ... Of course, DBS reception WON'T work from indoors at all .... Having the antenna indoors will atteunate the signal by at least 15db or so(that's a lot), probably even more as compared to what your antenna can "gather out of the airwaves" if it were mounted outside ... Multipath/certian interferece issues are also much more of a problem from indoors ...

Check out subsection of section 4 of the antenna link I posted in my reply to browerjs above, entitled "Attic? Why not" for more info on attic installations. Other info at that site should be benifical for you as well. Search this form for HOA or OTARD if you think your HOA or some restriction can keep you from installing an outdoor antenna on property you own or control... They can't ... It's the law ...

Hope some of this helps, Good luck+let us know how it goes ...

nitewatchman, thanks a TON for all the info. Like I said I am new to OTA broadcast, and you seem to have extensive knowledge. One factor that I think might be affecting my signal is I live in the Hills and Dales park and there are MANY large trees around, above and in the way of my antenna pointing. once it warms up I will deffinately get up on the roof with an outdoor antenna and give it a try. Thanks again!
-Josh-

Hills and Dales is only 1 to 2 miles from the antenna farm for Dayton. Your could put a piece of hook-up in the antenna input and pickup the stations. With amps that close to the antenna's you may be over loading the input to the receiver. I can pick-up the Dayton stations in downtown will a non-amp rabbit ears with no problem.

dtv insider, welcome to AVS! We always welcome broadcast engineers here and value your input! :)

I'd like to second what Paul just said!

Originally posted by dtv insider
Hills and Dales is only 1 to 2 miles from the antenna farm for Dayton. Your could put a piece of hook-up in the antenna input and pickup the stations. With amps that close to the antenna's you may be over loading the input to the receiver. I can pick-up the Dayton stations in downtown will a non-amp rabbit ears with no problem.

Another excellent suggestion :)

I'd say this has a very good chance of working from Josh's location -- At least for some of them, maybe not for all 6 Dayton DTV stations, but it's certianly possible ... I know a fellow 4 miles from the towers in another area getting all his stations perfectly off a Paper clip used with his PC tuner card -- which is being used with a PC sitting on the floor, in his basement ...

Here, I can get the Dayton(12~14 miles) and most of the Cincinnati(27~32 miles) DTV stations with a UHF folded dipole+Rabbit ears for VHF(WCPO-DT Cincy on VHF 10) placed near a 2nd story window facing the towers(different window for Cincy/Dayton of course) .... The Analogs are a bit ghosty+snowy with that though+I prefer to use a better, outdoor antenna setup+ I get a few more stations with it+excellent NTSC reception ..Some nice "DX" at times too ..... Of course, I'm down in a very forested, small, steep valley, so that puts a bit of a "damper" on things ....

It really does work this well folks, but of course, YMMV ...

Anyhow -- I can't imagine why Josh would need to go outdoors for the Dayton DT's, or why a simple antenna setup wouldn't work ... Unless there is a "serious" terrain issue involved, a "modest" outdoor setup would probably work nicely for him for reception of the Cincinnati stations ...

Also, I'd suspect the problem he might be having with the amp might have more to do with the amp overloading+causing intermodulation distortion(IM) on certian frequencies ... Of course, Could be both IM+front end of receiver overloading ...

Originally posted by DrDon
Interesting. Neither my Samsung T-151 nor my Zenith 1080 remap WKEF-DT. The annoying thing is that DirecTV's APG assigns 22-1 to WKEF-DT. But tune to the placeholder and you get nothing but the program information. Tune to 51-1 and you get WKEF-DT but, naturally, no program information. I have the same issue with WHIO-DT and WRGT-DT. Does your STB remap those? WDTN-DT and WPDT-DT both remap to 2-X and 16-X respectively on both of my STBs.

Doc

Sure does, remaps & gives accurate program info., also does the Ciny Locals.

I think some of the DirecTV boxes do the remapping and program info from the satellite.

I have the T165 (cable and OTA box) and the only channels that remap are 2-1,2 and 16-1,2,3,4,5.
The rest come up as 41-1,2, 51-1,2, and 30-1. The only guide info I get is from WPTD.

Yeah, it has to be a DirecTV APG function, as not all of the Cincy/Dayton locals HAVE program information in the PSIP. So, the 160 isn't reading the PSIP information, it's working off of the APG. My Zenith knows where the channel is supposed to be (tune to 22-1 and you get a signal level), but it won't display video unless the APG and the PSIP match. Apparently, the 160 doesn't have that issue. My 151 is ATSC only, so it only remaps if the station's remapping.

Doc

Originally posted by 1450kHz
the only channels that remap are 2-1,2 and 16-1,2,3,4,5.


WBDT-DT 18 (WB Dayton) Remaps to 26-1 here as well. All the Cincy stations+WKOI-DT remap as well ....

WBDT-DT 18 (WB Dayton) Remaps to 26-1 here as well. All the Cincy stations+WKOI-DT remap as well ....

Oops, I forgot about WBDT. Can't get Cincy stations with my current setup.

With everybody else in Dayton Having HD or Fox widescreen soon, I do hope we see WB HD from WBDT-DT soon as well ....

I haven't turned the guides feature on on the DTC-100 for quite a while(My Zenith Box doesn't "do" off-air guides or station ID via PSIP -- It does remap channels via PSIP though), but WPTD-DT is also the only dayton station I've seen send the off-air guides so far -- Cincinnati wise, I've seen the following stations send off-air guide/programming schedule info :

WCET-DT (PBS)
WCVN-DT (KET/PBS)
WLWT-DT (NBC)

OK, now I'm confused! So today is a pretty nice day and I got off of work early and decide to do some antenna troubleshooting. First off I haven't mentioned that on the top of my house is one of those ungodly huge old antennas, which I had been waiting for warmer weather to hookup, but today was the day. So I get onto the roof(which is no easy task since my house is nearly 30ft tall on a hill)and hook it up. To my dismay I got the same results as the indoor powered antenna. The most annoying part of all this is that I can do a signal check on the stations and literally watch the signal go from ~90+ to like 40 in a matter of seconds. The only station that gives me any kind of constant signal is 41. I don't know what I'm doing wrong. My TV is in the basement, but I've used RG6 wires for all my runs(thanks Mendlesons $35 for 700ft) and doubt I'm loosing much even though it is nearly a 70 ft run from the antenna to the set. I am completely at a loss for what to do, especially when you guys tell me you can easily pick up stations that are like 2 miles from my home from KY and I cant. I am wondering if my TV doesn't have something wrong with it, could that be possible? Again thanks guys for the help in advance!

jbh613

What do you see on the local UHF analog stations when using the "ungodly" antenna on the roof. Any ghosts?

Is that antenna aimed somewhat in the direction of the towers? I've noticed the signal bounces up and down when my antenna is off-target. One other thought; since you're so close to several of the radio towers, I wonder if you're getting some FM interference from them. Do you notice any herringbone patterns in your analog reception?

Paul

Dr Don, I do see a slight ghosting affect on channel 2 but no others.

PAul, not sure what Herringbone is?

So, I take it you are getting a clear, fairly snow/ghost/interference free Picture on Dayton analogs 2,7,16,22,26,40,45?

The problem you might be having is that you(basically) might be getting TOO much signal ...which I'd say is quite likely given your proximity to the towers ... Hence the suggestion to try a short piece of wire or a simple, unamplified antenna .... Also, If it is the case that you're getting too much signal,(using the antenna on the roof(if it is working OK) is defintely going to give you even much MORE signal than you're getting from indoors) adding attenuation in the feedline might be of help ... You can use passive splitters to attenuate the signal, or you can use attenuators ...

You could also try aiming the antenna South-Southwest to see what you get from Cincinnati stations ....Since you're on a hill in that area, you should be able to achieve excellent results with the cincinnati stations(analog and digital), If your "old" antenna on the roof is still in good shape an working properly ... If that works better than Dayton, it's probably a good clue that its likely you are getting way too much signal from the Dayton stations ...

Update: Herringbone is just what it sounds like ... "squiggly looking" lines running somewhat "diagnoally" across the screen(on analog stations) ... FM signals cause this sort of interference, You won't usually have a problem with this on UHF, unless a amp/preamp is being used ... Also --- You're so close to so many hi-powered sources of RF, there's a lot of stuff that could be "desensitising" your tuner -- perhaps making it difficult for it to be sensitive/selective enough to work properly ... Certian frequencies(channels) may be affected while others are not. Other sources of interference can be problems too, but they should show up on the analog stations too ...

Another thing you can do is use a non-screenblanking analog TV(one that will show "snow" on an empty channel instead of a "blue screen") ... Check the channels that should be "clean snow" to see if anything shows up there that shouldn't be ... For example, if you're seeing WKEF 22 on say Channel 38, that's a pretty good sign that you're getting way too much signal(WKEF 22 showing up on 38 should probably really only occur as Intermodulation distortion from a overloaded preamp) .... Don't worry if say channel 3,6(right next to 88.1 WDPR) ,8 (or anything that is on a channel right next to one of the dayton analogs) is a mess, that's to be expected ....

Lots more more detailed info on this stuff(including info on interference and pics of what "herringbone" looks like) at the link I provided in reply to BrowerJs about antennas on the last page ...

Originally posted by Paul210
One other thought; since you're so close to several of the radio towers, I wonder if you're getting some FM interference from them. Paul

I keep thinking about that too .... If it were me, I'd try the other stuff we've been talking about first ... Experimentation is often key in cases when problems are encountered ...

But I wonder .... If I recall correctly, he is VERY very close to at least one, and quite close to several more hi-power FM transmitters as well(even closer than he is to the TV antenna farm, I believe) ..... Besides any possible problems that might occur from those signals being received "off the antenna" --- I also wonder(just wondering)..... : I don't know what frequencies would be used for the IF stage(s) in a DTV receiver, but I even wonder if its possible a signal, such as a very strong, nearby FM(or even something else - AM/a poorly shielded CPU in a PC/etc/etc/etc/) could even be "getting into" an IF stage in his DTV receiver and causing problems ???... After all, RF shielding on consumer equipment is generally not all that great .... I've never heard of anything like this happening with a DTV receiver, but probably doesn't mean it can't happen ....

-------------------------------------------------------

Update: What also might be helpful --- Is there anyone else who is near jbh613's location who can report reception problems or success along with info on the equipment(antenna/receiver) they are using?

OK, so I have been messing with this stupid thing all day now with no luck! I first tried the Cincinnati channels with the outdoor antenna and they are a no go, so after I scrapped that idea I tried messing with different antennas I had here in the house. I listened to all of your wonderful input and tried as many things as I could. First I cut a short wire and let it act as an antenna and nothing at all, all stations were ~23+- on the meter. I next tried an unpowered set of old rabbit ears I had while moving from place to place throughout the house (again thanks to the great deal on the wire from Mendelson's) and still, channel 2 would sometimes come in, but only long enough to laugh at me. This went on for about two hours or so. After accepting defeat with that idea, I then called in the reinforcements (my dad) who came over to lend a hand (and drink a beer.) So while my dad sat in the basement in front of the TV I moved the various antennas to different locations and tried just about everything I could possible think of and NOTHING! My reception is worse now than ever. He just left because we had called it quits and sat down to watch survivor, and it would lose picture about every two minutes. I still don't see how I can tune in the signal to ~90 and within a few minutes its at ~30. Doesn't make sense to me at all. I guess my next move is to hire a professional to come out and help. Anyone here know anyone who does that kind of thing?
-defeated -

Well, there is something "funny" going on, I'd say .... If you aren't getting anything from Cincinnati with the outdoor antenna(even the VHF analogs), something is wrong there too ... Assuming it is in good shape, and is a VHF/UHF TV antenna and not something else(and you're connections are good, and you're using the necessary matching transformer at the antenna given a 300 ohm load to match the impedance of the 75Ohm coax/tuner) --..... Maybe try hooking it up to a different TV+see what you get analog reception wise from Cincinnati ... Even if antenna is aimed off target, you should get something, but proper antenna aiming is usually necessary for best results ....

I don't know any knowledable antenna installers in the area(a field test with a spectrum analyzer would probably be quite useful), but perhaps someone else can refer you to someone. Or, Perhaps one of us could "tote over" our DTV receiver and a small bowtie antenna/etc. and see if we can get one of those to work ... That might tell us a lot ... I'd be happy to volunteer, but I probably won't be able to make it up for a while, as a family member here is having foot surgery tomorrow+will need some extra "help" for a while ...

Also, if it isn't a problem with your equipment/antenna setup/connections/etc, some of the folks at the stations might be interested in your situation as well.

Originally posted by jbh613
I am wondering if my TV doesn't have something wrong with it, could that be possible?

It's possible. --- This shouldn't be the case with your model, but A fairly common problem with some external receivers is heat, and symptoms similar to what you are experiencing are sometimes seen+corrected by adding some extra ventilation.

I did do some looking at info on your Set on the net(I saw a review you wrote on a site BTW -- That's a nice display) Anyhow, it is probably one of the first of the "newer" sets designed with ATSC tuner included(among other things), and I haven't heard how "good" these things are where reception/RF performance is concerned ... So, there could be some "problems" with it I suppose ... You might want to do a search for it here, or in hardware area to see if other users have reported reception problems ...

It might sound strange, but a situation such as your location, so close to the towers and with so many strong signals around(TV And AM/FM broadcast) can be one of the most difficult reception situations, because the signals are so strong, they can "overload things", and basically make it more difficult for the receiver to sort out "what is what" ...

Some of the most common things that can cause your signal quality meter to bounce up and down like that are various issues which can generally be thought of as " interference or overload issues", as well as multipath issues. Since you're not seeing much ghosting on the analogs which are pretty much spread all across the dial(multipath can be quite frequency specific), It's still possible I suppose, but I doubt if multipath is the problem --- I know that from what I have seen here, and reports I've heard from others, significant static/dynamic multipath on the analog counterparts still=perfect DTV reception, since the equalizer in the receiver can easily handle quite a TON of multipath, given a decent amount of signal ...

OF course, It's possible a "common issue" might not be the difficulty you are having here as well ... As I said before, there are lots of variables and factors which can come into play ...

Another thing that might help you out that can be confusing(especially since some of these things say "signal strength" right on the screen, even though that's not what they're measuring) ... The meter in your receiver(and most DTV receivers I know of - but not all)probably doesn't really measure "signal strength", if it did, it wouldn't bounce around like that -- ever --- The signal strength from the station will remain very much the same(unless they're working on it/etc -- in which case we'd all see a change) .... Unless you have a windmill right by your antenna or something that is .... Best way to think of it is as a "signal quality meter" ... A fairly weak signal just over the threshold needed for good DTV reception(that threshold being 15.3db of signal over noise) can show high readings just as a strong signal can. In your location, there is no doubt that the signals from dayton would be VERY strong ..

First off, thanks alot Jeff and the rest of you on this forum,and jeff hope everything goes well at the surgery for your family member tomorrow. That being said, I was a little hesitant when buying such a new set, but it had all the features for a good price. Just a final thought though, would there be any chance that my wireless(802.11g) home network would be causing any problems, because I know it messes with my cordless phone sometimes. When I was first setting up the antenna I had it in the same room as the wireless transmitter. maybe not related at all.

I'd think the wireless network stuff would effect analog reception as well if it was a problem, but you never know .. might be worth it to try + unplug the transmitter+see if it helps any ... I had to move around some cat5 cable and a hub that was too near my antenna feedline in the attic, as it was adding "sparkles"(seen on analog TV/WAVE 3 Louisville -a local here)+Noise, but only to VHF channel 3 ... ferrite beads placed on the cables around the area involved can be of some help there ...

Also -- Thank you for sticking with us+letting us know how its going ... Let us know if you get any improvement+or find out what is going on ...

Alright, I think I have figured out the major problem, ME. Its really pretty stupid, while you guys were asking me about ghosting I thought you were referring to the DTV signals. So I don't have an antenna ran to the NTSC input of my T600, and its a real pain to get back there and do that. So I ran another wire from the outdoor antenna to my bedroom TV and viola, ghosting like crazy! Channel two and seven were really bad, but on a side note, I got all the Cincy stations. So now that I can kinda understand the problem, reflected signal, how should I combat it?