That's good news! Is the antenna you are using a directional antenna, and if so, in which direction is it aimed, presently?

I think you've got the idea about "Ghosting/Multipath(which may be 1 problem, you might be having a combination of issues/factors causing difficulty) , but here's the rundown+what you can do about it ....

Ghosting on analogs is caused by multipath ... Multipath is caused by "portions" of the signal arriving at slightly different times at your antenna, as portions of the signal are being recieved on slightly different paths. .. Obstructions in the signal path(s) between transmitting+receiving antenna which are also conductors are a cause of multipath. More on this below, but non-directional antennas, or directional antennas which aren't aimed in the proper direction are the most common issues involved which cause, or increase multipath/ghosting problems. There are other things that can increase, or even "induce" multipath problems as well, I'll touch on SOME of these other causes in a bit, but here's another one real quick --- trying to hook up, say 2 UHF antennas aimed in different directions onto the same feedline also "induces" mulitpath -- Since the antennas would likely be "out of phase", signals will very likely fall on one antenna at slightly different times than the other antenna, therefore "inducing" multipath ....

Anything that's in between the tower+your antenna, and in or near the signal path can be a multipath issue(especially if it's nearby -- such as electrical wiring in your attic/your roof/etc if your antenna is in the attic), although usually terrain+trees and such usually just absorb a very small bit of signal rather than reflect it ... a bit of an exception can happen(especially on higher UHF channels perhaps) when wind blows the trees/leaves around, creating a bit of dynamic multipath, which can especially be an issue if signal is weak(which shouldn't be a problem for you) ..... A highly directional antenna that works well at higher UHF frequencies can be good in these sorts of circumstances ...

Tall Buildings(especially if you are completely surrounded by tall buildings), water towers and the like can be a particular problem, although I wouldn't think that would be an issue for you --- These things cause what are called "static multipath", wheras aircraft/etc. flying through the signal path can cause "dynamic multipath", for which the ghosting would appear "fluttery" on analogs when a plane flies through the signal path.

Anyhow, when multipath is a problem, The same thing actually happens with the signals with digital as with "ghosting" on analogs, ... but since you're not seeing the actual "signal" on screen with DTV, you can't see it as ghosting ... The meter bouncing up and down can be a sign of multipath(among many other things, as mentioned earlier). DTV receivers have a equalizer, which (without going into detail) can "handle" quite a bit of that multipath issue , but there is only so much it can do ....

So, IF the antenna(which I am just assuming is a directional antenna) is NOT Aimed at the transmitting towers, then this also induces multipath(ghosting) ..usually of the severe kind if antenna is aimed too much off target ... So, you need to make sure the antenna is aimed at the Towers for the stations you want to receive ...That's probably where you want to start ...

From your location, seems like you should be even able to actually see those towers(They should appear in a line from S To north, and are just on the Hill across I-75 from you) but if not, the Dayton towers are pretty much directly West of you, Cincinnati towers would be roughly South-southwest.

Usually, you'll want to aim the antenna right at the tower, but Sometimes the best results may even occur if the antenna is aimed a little off target from the towers, and the best thing to do is to monitor reception while aiming the antenna for best results ... Using the analogs to find the best spot to aim your antenna, by reducing the ghosting on the analog signals to a minimum can be of benefit as well. Having a helper with a 2 way radio, or actually carrying a small TV on the roof can help you out here ... You can't obviously take the DTV receiver with you in this case<g>

Also, if the antenna isn't hooked up "properly", or has pieces falling off of it or has detiorated because of age(probably not a problem unless it's REALLY old) and isn't working properly, it can greatly increase the multipath problem ....

Besides proper antenna aiming+having your antenna outdoors in a spot "free of nearby obstructions, other important ways to combat multipath is to use an antenna with more directivity(a directional antenna basically "rejects" portions of signals being received in other directions besides the one it's pointed), and also, finding a "sweet spot" to place the antenna can be benificial -- For the most part trees shouldn't be a problem, but you wouldn't want to have the antenna aimed right into a Large tree that's very close to the antenna+in the same direction as towers ... You also probably wouldn't want to aim right into a water tower, or part of your roof/etc ...

Also, as mentioned earlier, multipath is often quite frequency specific -- so you might have multipath on channel 2+7, but none on any UHF channel, although, I suspect you have multipath issues on all the stations, VHF+UHF becuase your antenna isn't aimed properly, or is "falling apart", or is not a directional model or wasn't designed for TV ....

Also, if the antenna is a VHF only(Ch 2-13/FM or ham/scanner/etc) antenna, it isn't designed to work with UHF(TV ch. 14~69), and that would increase multipath on UHF as well. Having the proper "load", or impedance match for The feedline/tuner to be matched to the antenna's impedance is also an important factor, otherwise, the entire feedline+antenna just becomes a "Random wire" antenna which also isn't going to help with multipath.

ALL of the Dayton DTV stations are on UHF, currently. When you see "2-1" for WDTN-DT, the station really isn't transmitting on channel 2, it's just being "remapped" via PSIP(data) info sent by the station, just so it will "show up" on your screen as being right next to the analog station .... In the future, after analog TV shuts off, many stations will move their digitals back to VHF, but for now, the only area stations on VHF are WCPO-DT 10 Cincinnati, WSYX-DT 13 Columbus, and WLIO-DT 8 Lima. These are the actual channels the Dayton stations transmit on:

WBDT-DT 18 (remap to 26-x)
WRGT-DT 30 (doesn't remap on most receivers)
WHIO-DT 41 (Doesn't remap on most receivers)
WDTN-DT 50 (remap to 2-x)
WKEF-DT 51 (doesn't remap on most receivers)
WPTD-DT 58 (remap to 16-x)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

So --- especially If you're getting some pretty bad ghosting(or poor reception) on the Dayton UHF analogs (16,22,26,40,45) too, you can expect the digital stations would be having the same issue .... "snow" in the signal means your not getting enough signal(maybe because the antenna isn't working on UHF very well, or something in the line *+is not passing though UHF signals from the antenna -- The latter which would be likely if this is a problem, as at your distance a coat hanger should work to get enough signal ...

So ... Fix the antenna aiming(or get a "better" directional New antenna - you're old one may be still working fine though), make sure your connections are good and there isn't anything in the feedline that shouldn't be there, get all the "ghosts" and/or any snow out of the analogs, and if this still doesn't fix reception --- the "too much signal" thing STILL might be another issue you're having --- If so, pad the signals by adding add'l atteunation in the feedline ...

One thing good about the Dayton stations is, they are ALL transmitting from the same antenna farm(except WWRD-LP 55 analog, W47BC analog) -- So you don't have to aim your antenna towards different spots ...

Also --- For Dayton digital(HD) stations, since they are all on UHF currently(and for many more years likely) you could use a smaller, UHF only antenna instead of a larger VHF/UHF antenna -- as close as you are, a UHF antenna would probably work well enough for Dayton VHF too, althoough 2+7 probably won't look so great ... Something like the CM4221 Bowtie antenna might be a good choice, although you really won't need any "gain" from your antenna for Dayton ... Something like the CM4221 would also probably work well for you with the cincinnati stations, there's even a chance you might be able to aim something like a CM4221 "in between" the Dayton+Cincinnati towers and get stations from BOTH cities(except WCP0-DT(ABC) Cincy on VHF), but it's probably more likely you would have to aim the antenna differently (west for dayton, SSW for Cincy) for each city for best results ... seperate antennas on seperate feedlines, or a rotor would be optimal if you want both Dayton/Cincinnati DTV/HD stations ... You can think about that "later on" though ....

Sorry for the length of some of these, hope it helps ...

update:

Oh ... I forgot to mention .. If you're getting all the Cincinnati NTSC(analog) stations on the bedroom TV(5,9,12,19,25,38,48,54,61,64 - 25,38,54+61 are Low power or from low transmitting antennas, and probably are real snowy if you see them at all, 14+43 are in oxford, you may be seeing those too) w/o a lot of snow or ghosting(maybe the antenna is aimed somewhat towards Cincinnati if you're getting the analogs fairly well), you should be able to get the Cincinnati digital/(most with HD/Fox Widescreen) stations on the Hitatchi as well ... But, you would probably either have to :

1. Do a new Channel Scan for ATSC(DTV, most with HD) stations it can find which it can receive off your outdoor antenna(from the direction it is aimed, if it's a directional antenna) ...

2. Punch in the actual channels the Cincy DTV station are transmitting on --- manually -- Those channels are:
10, 24(In KY, this one might be "too far"), 29 (Not on air all the time), 31, 33, 34(on air 8am-11pm), 35

29,31,34+35 and probably 10 as well should be pretty easy to receive from your location ... See first post of Cincinnati thread for more info on the Cincinnati DTV/HD stations/PSIP remapping info/etc.

Also Some DBS/OTA receivers also require you to punch in the "zip code" for the DMA you're in to be able to receive those channels, I doubt if that's an issue for your reciever, but who knows ... If it is, you'd probably have to punch in a Cincinnati area zip code, or some such thing to let you even see the Cincinnati stations ...

-------------------------------

Well i bought a SIR-T151 on ebay, and now just have to wait for it to get here and hope i can get reception with an el-cheapo, "nice" looking antenna (so the wife doesn't kill me :) ) So basically the first thing i should try is an indoor UHF antenna from radioshack? Like one of these: http://www.radioshack.com/category.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&Page=1 (which one would be the best)
Also this may be a dumb question but if i were to go the attic antenna route are there any "wireless" antennas. I don't know how i'd run the wire from my attic to where my TV is...

jbh613

One thing to remember when doing the moving-the-antenna-around-the-room thing is to pause about 15 - 30 seconds in each new location. With analog, you can just wave the aluminum around in the air until the picture looks good. With digital, the receiver has to lock on, then decode the information and produce a picture. In that amount of time, you may have given up and moved on.

I still say your best choice is going to be a small UHF-only antenna placed somewhere near the set. If you do try the rabbit ears, again, collapse the telescoping parts (if any) until they're only 6 inches or so long.

Originally posted by browerjs
So basically the first thing i should try is an indoor UHF antenna from radioshack? Also this may be a dumb question but if i were to go the attic antenna route are there any "wireless" antennas. I don't know how i'd run the wire from my attic to where my TV is... Well, we could probably create a passive reflector in your attic, but it would cause more trouble than good. If you have a return air plenum, that's a handy route for coax. Mine runs down from that to the unfinished basement, then to wherever it needs to go.

The double-bow-tie antenna is one of the favorites for ATSC. And if your 151 is like mine, it'll work with nearly anything you hook to it.

On jbh613's situation -- I agree with Doc that the indoor antenna for the Dayton stations should work -- If not rabbit ears, then one of the antennas mentioned in the replies concerning Browerjs's antenna below. The antenna in your attic might work too, if you can take the amps OUT alltogether ....

Getting the "ghosts" out of the NTSC UHF(analog UHF stations)with an indoor antenna might be useful as well ... I'd still use the Outdoor antenna though, maybe for Cincinnati if not for Dayton. The outdoor setup Should work for Dayton too+should alleviate any need(you may not have to though) to "mess around with the rabbit ears" to find the best spot for to different stations, but again, since he's so close might need to add some(or a lot) of atteunation in the feedline .... The Dayton towers may be a little spread out for him since he's so close, so a "too directional" antenna might not be as good as something like the CM4221 - 4 Bay bowtie.

Browerjs,

The antenna Doc is referring to as the double bow tie is shown on that page as the "UHF Dual HDTV Indoor Antenna" - $14.99 - Cat # 930-0998 -- It would be the best antenna shown on that page. There's no such thing as a "HDTV antenna", BTW, don't know why they started calling it that(marketing I imagine). Do a search on AVS for double Bow tie or DBT for more info on it.. Many have had excellent results with it. The antenna on Pg. 2 - Cat 15-234 (I see it's went up to $3.49) might work for you too ... This is a simple, UHF folded dipole(wire in the shape of a bowtie), which I've used here as an indoor antenna with good results as explained in one of my above posts. The "Silver Sensor"(not at radio shack I don't believe -- Best Buy had them at one time) is another good indoor, UHF antenna. You can find a lot of info on it on AVS, too. Antennas that look like scuptures, or are very expensive, such as Terk Indoor models are about as useful as a coat hanger, if that -- Not saying they can't work, sometimes they do.

The antennas mentioned above are UHF-only antennas, all the Dayton Digital(HD) stations are on UHF, currently, so you shouldn't need a VHF/UHF antenna unless you want to receive analog stations. You can use a VHF/UHF joiner to combine seperate VHF/UHF antennas(indoor or outdoor) onto the same feedline if you want to add VHF reception later. An outdoor antenna would be a good idea if you want to try for Cincinnati or Columbus ...

I believe the antennas mentioned above(except the Silver sensor, which I believe already has a 75Ohm connection on it) come with a short piece of 300Ohm twinlead, so for these antennas, to cut down on potential interference problems, It would be better to put a balun(Matching transformer 300Ohm-75ohm - such as RS # 15-1230 : http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F010%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1230 ) as close to antenna as possible, and run RG-6 Coax to your TV from there.

No, there aren't any antennas which are wireless between the receiver and the antenna. The wireless part is between the transmitter+the reciever ...

Typically, one runs Coax inside walls to get the feedline down from the attic, or from outside, or anything that will work, such as the return-air plenum Doc mentioned. A spot near a window which faces the towers is often going to be a better spot to put the antenna rather than in the attic, another spot near your display(or say in a closet/ or on a shelf/etc) might work well also. You might be able to find a good spot the antenna works well in Close to the Display. Keeping the feedline as short as possible can be benifical as well(to cut down on signal losses), but shouldn't be too much of a problem for you unless you have a long run to attic. It is a good idea to have a little extra feedline to start off with, so you can move the antenna around to find a good spot to put it in which provides good reception ...

Update: Oh yes ... If you're going to put an antenna in the attic, the DBT or Silver sensor might not be a bad choice, but --- You might as well use a higher-gain(bigger+better than indoor models in other words), directional OUTDOOR antenna in the attic ... If you want a VHF/UHF combo, go with the biggest thing that will fit+still be able to be aimed towards the towers, a CM4221 or CM4228 multibay bowtie would be good choices for UHF. This place carries a number of different antennas:

http://www.solidsignal.com/

I may as well add my antenna experience.

I purchased a CM4228 antenna mentioned above by Jeff and installed in attic knowing I would loose some signal strength (purchased from
http://www.warrenelectronics.com/Antennas/Chmaster_ant.htm
The cable runs down 2 floors to my RCA ATSC11 OTA receiver which is digital only. I was not interested in the analog stations and thought ATSC only may have better luck rejecting NTSC signals from interfering with reception.
I moved the antenna around in the attic talking to my wife watching the signal strength on various stations downstairs using a walkie talkie. (Fun experience when both are trying to talk at same time.) I got it where I received all Dayton stations and most Cinci except 48 and occasionally 19. Then 41-1 WHIO-DT started dropping off depending on the day. Wide signal variation. Jeff's post above explains why. I then added a CM4221 on same mast in attic pointed more towards Dayton towers and Dayton signals where solid. (See this site for more info on antenna stacking)
http://remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-sat/thread.cgi?1720
Now 48 and 19 in Cinci was almost a lock. I got greedy and pointed my 4221 almost to Cinci like my 4228. I now received all stations solid. UNTIL day before superbowl, 41-1 WHIO-HD was again having large signal variation, so I moved 4221 back toward Dayton towers. 48 and 19 are iffy. I will play with positioning again when I have time to try and avoid a rotor. I live near Stroop and Overland about one mile from you jbh613.
Also, since the CM4228 is large (almost 40 inch square) and I have only a 22 inch attic opening, I had to remove 2 rivets and reassemble with 2 screws and nuts after getting the 2 pieces into attic.

Nitewatchman, I again also appreciated your past advice.

Sorry if i'm asking stupid questions, but i've never not used cable for tv reception in my life, so i'm kinda clueless on antenna's... With that said... do all antennas simply have a coax connector on them and then you just run the coax from there to the ATSC input on the STB? Also if i were to buy a VHF/UHF antenna and fed it into the ATSC input i would be able to receive the dayton analog stations as well??? My TV is actually positioned right in front of the cold air intake in my house, so i can probably easily run the coax from the attic down, through it, so i'm thinking my best bet may be to just purchase an antenna that would receive all analog and digital Dayton and Cincy stations... Also if i get a VHF/UHF i could test the antenna out for positioning before my box gets delivered, by running it to the NTSC input? If i do this and am able to receive cincy analog stations 5,9,12,19, will i also be able to get the digital signals?

UD #1, Thanks for the report, very interesting. Some comments on your post:

Originally posted by UD#1
I was not interested in the analog stations and thought ATSC only may have better luck rejecting NTSC signals from interfering with reception.


All ATSC receivers(even if they are in a "box" that does NTSC reception too) have a filter(or should have anyway) in them to "notch out" the NTSC Video/audio+color burst carriers that may be present as "co-channel" interference. However, a box that will do NTSC+ATSC will often lock onto a weak NTSC signal+put the receiver into "NTSC" mode, instead of looking at any ATSC signal that might be on that channel. The RCA DTC-100 is one of these, and the only way to get it to "look for" a ATSC signal on that specific channel again is to do another channel scan, with your antenna pointed away from the NTSC station involved. This is usually just a problem when you are "Dx'ing", but it happens to me on channel 10(WBNS 10 analog columbus) any time I aim my "big" antenna towards Columbus ... Just enough of a signal so it locks onto the NTSC signal ... Have to do a channel rescan again+aim antenna somewhat towards Cincinnati to see WCPO-DT 10 again, even though it puts in an excellent signal here ...
PRobably not an issue though if your receiver has seperate NTSC/ATSC antenna inputs(Josh's is the first one I've heard of that is evidently like this.

Of course, you don't likely really need a NTSC tuner in your DTV receiver, since all your TV's will have them anyway. You can use a splitter to run the line into the antenna input on your TV to view/check analog(NTSC) signals. Using+optimizing reception of the analog counterparts to the digital stations you want to receive can be VERY benfifical to work on reception problems, since you can see the problems you are experiencing right on the screen ...


Originally posted by UD#1
I then added a CM4221 on same mast in attic pointed more towards Dayton towers and Dayton signals where solid. (See this site for more info on antenna stacking)
http://remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-sat/thread.cgi?1720
Now 48 and 19 in Cinci was almost a lock. I got greedy and pointed my 4221 almost to Cinci like my 4228. I now received all stations solid. UNTIL day before superbowl, 41-1 WHIO-HD was again having large signal variation, so I moved 4221 back toward Dayton towers. 48 and 19 are iffy. I will play with positioning again when I have time to try and avoid a rotor.

Combining 2 antennas onto the same feedline in this manner, being that you are trying to aim them in different directions+also are using different antenna models is most likely going to give you poor results, because the antennas are going to be out of phase. While you can use this sort of setup to "phase out" interference staions/etc(something you shouldn't be having an issue with) the results are very much "hit or miss" at best. This might be why your having problems with WCET-DT 34(remaps to 48-x) and WXIX-DT 29(remaps to 19-x), although, also, getting the antenna outside would probably be the best thing you could do.

This isn't "stacking" antennas. You might get lucky, but basically, using this method of combining 2 antennas on the same feedline is going to cause the two antennas to "interfere" with each other in most cases, and will increase your problems with multipath(ghosting on analogs). The way to do it for antennas aimed in different directions(such as towards Dayton+Cincinnati) is to run Seperate feedlines for Each antenna all the way from the antenna to near your receiver, and then use a A/B switch to switch between the two antennas(you can get a remote controlled A/B switch at radio shack). Or, you can use a rotor, but you'll need to run the rotor control wire anyway, so seperate feedlines+A/B switch would be just as convienient(and less expensive, especially since you already have the antennas!) But, For best results from Cincinnati, Get the antenna outdoors. Also, a full wavelength spacing(for the lowest frequency used) between the antennas on the mast is recommended -- About 3-4feet would be a good idea for spacing of the antennas for UHF TV.

Properly "stacking" antennas is something else --- To properly stack antennas, you must use the SAME Model of antenna, and you must AIM the antennas in the same direction. Also important is that equal lengths of Coax running from a coupler(+feedline) to each antenna must be used. The beneifit to proper stacking of antennas is increased directivity(meaning antenna will reject signals off the side/back better than a single antenna), and gain. It doesn't work to receive stations in differrent directions.
Stacking antennas is also most benifical within a very narrow range of frequencies, much more narrow than even ONE 6MHZ wide TV channel -- For instance, Hams use Stacked array's of yagi's cut for "specific frequencies", not broadband like the TV channels ... That being said, some folks have achieved excellent results stacking antennas for long distance TV reception/Dx'ing/etc, and to cut down on interference problems from co-channel stations with transmitting towers in different directions from the desired station of reception.

Here is an excellent article concerning the proper way to stack antennas, and why you would do it:

http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/stackant.html

Here is some excellent Pictures +information on a beautiful Quad Stack of UHF TV antennas near our area, in Southern Indiana -- This is one of the antenna setups "MAX HD" on AVS forum has used :

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/UHFQUADSTACK/index.html

Hope this helps,

Originally posted by browerjs
Sorry if i'm asking stupid questions

No such thing as stupid questions here!

Originally posted by browerjs
do all antennas simply have a coax connector on them and then you just run the coax from there to the ATSC input on the STB?


No, most antennas have 300Ohm terminals(screws). As I mentioned above, you need to get a "balun" (matching transformer) to adapt the 300Ohm load of the antenna to the 75 ohm impedance of the Coax+what the tuner needs. Most "outdoor" antennas will come with this balun included. See my above post w/link to the radio shack balun(matching transformer) for what you need, if it isn't included with your antenna. The "balun" will have the necessary connector on it to plug in the Coax(just like what you use for cable).

Originally posted by browerjs
Also if i were to buy a VHF/UHF antenna and fed it into the ATSC input i would be able to receive the dayton analog stations as well???

Well, no, not exactly. If your receiver(such as the Sammy 151, I believe) is a ATSC only receiver, then ATSC(DTV stations) will be all it can pick up with the receiver. Some receivers(not sure about the sammy 151) have a RF "pass through" jack,(just like VCR's) so the signals off the antenna are passed through,+ you can hook up a TV (all have NTSC receivers in them, unless its just a monitor), or a VCR ETc to the "rf out" jack coming from the STB, and receive the analog signals off the antenna using the NTSC tuner in your TV or VCR.

If your receiver doesn't have a RF jack, then you would use a 2 way splitter before the STB, running one side to the STB and the other side to your desired NTSC receiver(inside TV/VCR/etc).

In other words, it should be easy to run the signal off the antenna into a device that will pick up the analog stations.

Josh's TV, which has both internal ATSC+NTSC tuners evidently has seperate ATSC/NTSC inputs, is the first one I've heard of like that ... He would need to use a splitter before the TV+hook up a line to each input(atsc/ntsc) to get signals off the antenna from both NTSC+ATSC stations into both NTSC/ATSC receivers.

Originally posted by browerjs

so i'm thinking my best bet may be to just purchase an antenna that would receive all analog and digital Dayton and Cincy stations...


Different antenna aiming/orientation would likely be needed from your location for getting good results from BOTH the Dayton+Cincinnati stations. In other words, seperate antennas on seperate feedlines, or a rotor(you need the room to be able to rotate the antenna as well) Omni-directional, or multi-directional antennas are not really a good idea .... Also, For Cincinnati(you might have some luck with Columbus stations too from your location, but that's a long shot), you're probably going to need an outdoor antenna, but you might get something from indoors ...

Originally posted by browerjs
Also if i get a VHF/UHF i could test the antenna out for positioning before my box gets delivered, by running it to the NTSC input? If i do this and am able to receive cincy analog stations 5,9,12,19, will i also be able to get the digital signals?

That's an Excellent idea to test the antenna out with the analogs first! Optimize+get good reception(little snow/ghosting) from the UHF analogs+it's very likely you'll get good reception from the Digitals(ATSC) stations as well.

Chances are if you can get good reception(little snow/ghosting) of the Cincinnati Analog UHF(not VHF) stations, you'll get good reception of the Digitals too. VHF Cincy analogs 5,9,12 won't tell you a whole lot (except maybe for the VHF WCPO-DT 10 ABC Cincinnati), but if you can get Cincy UHF analogs 19,48+64 with not a lot of snow or ghosting, your chances to get good reception of the Cincy digitals will be very good ...

update: Also, A preamp wouldn't probably be a good idea for reception of the Dayton stations, but a preamp might help you with Cincinnati or Columbus stations. Mast mount preamps(putting the amp as close to antenna as possibe is a good idea) are often the best way to go. Mast mount preamps receive power through the coax via a power inserter which is placed along the feedline(before any signal splitters) somewhere in your home, as yo ucan't very well plug into A/C on the outside of your roof! I wouldn't worry about the preamp though, don't get one until you've tried it without a preamp, and don't get one unless you need it. A preamp doesn't really "boost signals", it just can help the "noise floor" your receiver sees, as well as make up for losses from long coax runs/signal splitting. IT can also be overloaded from strong signals and cause problems. Getting the antenna outdoors (say for Cincy or Columbus) will work a lot better than a preamp, although a preamp could help you outdoors too ...

Good luck+let us know how it goes ...

Thanks for the info, i think i know what i'll need to buy at radio shack now... I'll probably grab an indoor and an outdoor and return whatever doesn't work as well. Really i'm not too concerned with the cincy stations, but i figure if i can receive them for a few extra bucks on an antenna, may as well, but i doubt i'll go as far as getting a rotor...

Also, For Cincinnati(you might have some luck with Columbus stations too from your location, but that's a long shot), you're probably going to need an outdoor antenna, but you might get something from indoors ...

when you refer to outdoor antenna here does that also mean an outdoor in an attic?

No, that means an outdoor antenna used outdoors .... placing the antenna indoors instead of outdoors will attenuate the signal considerably, at the least by 15-20db(that's a lot). Having the antenna indoors also increases the potential for multipath problems. Not to say that it might not work to some extent For Cincy from the Attic -- You might have some luck -- just don't count on it, and don't count on Cincy reception from indoors being easy .... Dayton from indoors from your location should work pretty well though ...

Really, antennas are antennas -- "All designs are a derivitive(sometimes an improvement/sometimes not) of some basic designs, all of which start with a dipole(rabbit ears are a simple dipole) .... "outdoor" just means it won't fall apart outdoors, and it probably won't fit on yourr settop either, indoors just usually means it will fit on your settop, and I don't know of any "indoor" antenna which will match the performance of a good, conventional outdoor model. Generally speaking, "Bigger is better" whether the antenna is mounted indoors or outdoors, as larger antennas can provide more gain, can be more directional(and thus reject multipath better), as well as have more "signal capture area" which is also a good thing.

ok, so I am going to best buy tonight to look at one of these
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1051806287898&skuId=5262814&type=product

Will that help me out?

It should. But keep a receipt and don't tear the box in case it doesn't.

Well i purchased an amplified indoor VHF/UHF indoor antenna from radio shack this afternoon http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1838
and i was pleasantly pleased with my results... The UHF analog stations come in perfectly with or w/o high gain switched on. Channel 2 and 7 are a little snowy, but not too bad... When i pull out the VHF antennas all the way and point them towards cincy i can hear audio pretty well, but can't see any of the picture for channels 5,9,12... However when i do this for channel 19, i get a somewhat snowy picture, but you can fairly easily make it out, and good audio... 64 is just audio no video thoughI can't wait to see what my results are with the HD Box!!! I have a feeling i'll be able to pick up WXIX-DT though, not sure about the others though

FINALLY!! I just got back from Best Buy and hooked up the antenna I mentioned above, and ALL Dayton locals work like a champ(~90+)! So I'm happy. I guess the problem was that the vhf/uhf/fm antenna was being "confused" with all the signal strength I get here, so this antenna works great since it blocks all other signals stave the UHF. Thanks to all the wonderful advice here on this forum, I wont disappear now that my problem is solved. You guys are a real help!

Good news jbh613!

Originally posted by browerjs
Well i purchased an amplified indoor VHF/UHF indoor antenna from radio shack this afternoon http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F003%5F001%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=15%2D1838


I'm just curious --- what made you decide to purchase that model?

Jeff..
WOW.. TWO success stories. You owe yourself a beer!! I'm buying myself a couple, as well.

Originally posted by browerjs
I have a feeling i'll be able to pick up WXIX-DT Assuming they're on, which they're not, right now. They have a rather odd operating schedule and a transmitter that has more problems than the Jackson family.

Doc

LOL! Yeah, that and WXIX-DT's occasional "weirdscreen" version of Fox Widescreen ....Luckily, they've gotten a lot better at not sending weirdscreen, but A couple of years ago, except for 2002 Superbowl in Fox WS, WXIX-DT sent us "weirdscreen" instead of widescreen for months and months ... Had Doc and I pulling our hair out ...

Another reason why WRGT-DT upgrades was such good news here...

When exactly is the WRGT-DT upgrade slated to take place?

UPDATE: Hey guys, I just uploaded some photos to the site, check out my work-in-progress and tell me what you think?

I think the next party's at your house!

You know guys Paul has a good idea. It would be fun for all of us "tech nerds" to get together sometime, unless you guys already do and I'm just in the dark? I would love to pay everyone back for all their helpfull insight.

During Nascar HD today, can't say I couldn't tell a difference at all, but to my eyes it wasn't much of a difference in compression artifacts between WLWT-DT and WKEF-DT ... I even checked it from about 2 feet away from display ...

It just doesn't seem to me that 51-2 is "bothering" the HD as much during bandwidth demanding portions of HD -- at least not as much as looks to be the case with the "extra" stuff from WHIO-DT/WKRC-DT and the Local PBS stations(even when it was just 1 SD sub at WCET-DT/WPTD-DT) .... Maybe the encoder being used/etc. has something to do with it ....

I am still getting occasional a/v dropouts from WKEF-DT. Is everyone else getting them too? I don't have this on any of the other high-def channels. It's pretty annoying.

Did you see any of the dropouts during the race today so far, and how often "in general" do you see the dropouts happening?

I thought there were a couple today so far, but it turned out to be the display or STB not sync'ing on the right refresh right or something on one setup here+taking a couple seconds to recover(haven't figured out WHAT the deal is with that yet, it happens on this display every now and then on any 1080i HD source), as others watching in another room on another setup didn't see it happen ... so, I haven't seen one of those in a long time from WKEF-DT(might be because I'm not watching or monitoring WKEF-DT when it's happened as of late), and usually when I have seen them, the audio "stays" throughout the dropout, but the video freezes until it's over ... never seen a dropout on 51-2(SD subchannel), or a problem with the signal -- so its not a reception issue here ... Have only seen it on 51-1 during NBC HD feed ...

Here's an odd observation. The delay between WLWT and WLWT-DT is almost nil. The delay between WLWT and WKEF-DT is considerably longer.

Doc

That is interesting ... I wasn't paying much attention to it, but I've had a analog TV sitting right next to HD display and tuned to either 22 or 5 at different times today ...

Looks like there might be a problem with sat feed for HD presently ... Just before 4:15pm -- started "breaking up" on both WLWT-DT/WKEF-DT, by 4:19 or so, WLWT-DT is pretty solid, but by 4:24pm, still some loss of screen data on WKEF-DT - To point of screen going blank at times (audio still present) ...

Same thing happening in Sidney on TWC. Even occasionally loss of audio.

Kerbs --- Yes, same thing OTA, but the audio is mostly there, even when the video goes completely out ...

WLWT-DT still solid between 4:18~4:38pm -- They were only having the same problem as we're seeing with WKEF-DT between 4:15~4:18pm or so ...

Update 2: 4:45~4:53pm - Getting mostly solid HD from WKEF-DT now .. Just noticed a couple short drops to black(audio fine) around 4:48pm ...

Update 3: I wonder if this is a much more significant instance of the non-reception related dropouts we've seen from them(NBC HD feed only) before, and I wonder if perhaps they could be a symptom of a related, or similar cause?

I thinking(and just wildly speculating) that perhaps dish aiming/etc. for the dish used for the NBC HD feed at each station could account for the difference between the extent of the problem today between WLWT-DT/WKEF-DT (and other stations across U.S. as reported on Daytona 500 thread in the programming area)-- but also, there was/is a geomagnetic storm reported to be going on, the current predicted "satellite enviornment" for K/p index shows a spike in the "red" which looks like it could have corresponded to around the time we saw the problems - (This will probably get updated pretty quick+soon won't show what it shows now) :

http://www.n3kl.org/sun/noaa.html

Jeff,
I put ch. 22 on the back-up tv in case the drop out happens at the end of the race! About a 3-5 second delay noticed on WKEF-DT. BTW, solid the past few minutes.

Jeff..
As the dropouts also happened during NBC-fed commercials (non local), you've either hit the nail on the head or there's a box in the uplink chain that's having issues.

Doc

Doc,

Just guessing via my ability to do so on this end ... I think it would perfectly explain exactly what I was seeing, But as you say, could be another bug, and could be one that's very difficult for them to track down+iron out ...

Anyhow, That's the first time I've ever seen the problem occur from WLWT-DT too, but for a much shorter period of time ...

Just had a couple more non-reception dropouts at 19:19~19:22 on 51-1. 51-2 and the signal was fine here throughout the dropouts, as allways ...

The dropouts on WKEF seem to happen once every 15 minutes or so. Sometimes less. The screen goes black then comes back after a second. WKEF is the ONLY HD station I've had the problem with.

I noticed it when watching some of Shrek tonight too. It's really annoying. Especially when someone is here and I'm trying to show them how nice HD is.

It has happened ever since I started receiving HD a few months ago. FWIW, I get HD through TWC (Sidney area).

Jeff might be onto something. My newsguy was listening to the race off of XM radio (MRN coverage) and reports a lot of dropouts around the same time we were seeing dropouts.

Newbie OTA questions,

I am in Fairfield Twp, about in the middle of Cincinnati and dayton. I had some satellite people out yesterday to upgrade my Directv to HD. They mounted an antenna in my attic. I can get all my analog stations, but not the digital. Does it take a clearer signal to get the hd ota signals?

I am not sure if my attic antenna is directional or not. I don't even know how to tell. Is there an advantage to a directional antenna?

Do I need to move the antenna to the roof? or what else can I do to get all of the HD channels?

Thanks

Don

Don,

Welcome to Dayton thread..

Generally speaking, if you can get decent reception of analog stations(via your attic antenna - not via locals from direcTV dish), reasonably clear of ghosting+snow or "signs of interference", then chances are very good you'll get good digital(HD) reception as well. This is especially true in our area, where digital stations are running from nice, high transmitting antenna heights, on the same towers as the analogs, and for the most part with a good amount of power. From what I and many others have seen, getting good DTV reception is actually easier than getting good analog reception, but of course, YMMV as there are many variables involved ...

Yes, there are great advantages to using a directional antenna ... A directional antenna will provide much more signal gain than a "omni-directional" or multidirectional antenna in the direction it is aimed, while rejecting signals(and rejecting interference+mulltipath - which creates ghosting on analog signals+can cause digital reception problems too - more info in previous posts here) in the directions it isn't aimed towards.

A directional antenna, mounted outdoors, away from any nearby obstructions and as high as is reasonably possible(and aimed at the towers - Dayton+Cincinnati towers would be in different directions of course from your location, so if you wanted to receive stations from both cities, the best thing to do is use either seperate directional antennas on seperate feedlines(with an A/B switch near receiver to select antennas), or a single antenna w/rotor so you can turn the antenna) Is usually the way to go to get the best reception possible ... Now, this doesn't mean you can't get good reception from indoors, just that its the "way to go" if you want best results ... Many have had excellent results with reception from indoors, and it may work out well for you too, although you might need to do a little work at it ... See previous posts and links to outside sources on antenna/reception info for more details/information on indoor reception ...

Also, Most stations in our area broadcast on UHF presently, but WCPO-DT Cincinnati is on VHF 10 - So, you'll likely need VHF/UHF antenna for best reception ... Once analog shut off occurs, many stations will move their digital stations from UHF back to their current VHF analog channel assignment.

Probably the biggest "problem issue" for good reception in our area is if you live in a low spot, with terrain(Hills) blocking the signal path. Especially problematical can be a high hill very near your location.

Also, you might find the AVSforum Cincinnati thread ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=306883&perpage=20&pagenumber=1 ) useful+informative for info on the Cincinnati Stations/etc.

-------------------------------

Now -- some questions to help us, so we can try to help you more, and hopefully some comments that may be of use to you :

Are you sure you are getting the analogs via the antenna in your attic, and not from the dish?(direcTV sends local SD stations via sat, but they don't send HD from stations via the satellite) ?

If you are getting the local analogs via antenna, are you seeing much ghosting/snow? If not, you should be receiving the digital stations as well. If you are seeing ghosting/snow on the analog stations, which channels are they on? Do you have any stations showing up with a x.1, or x-1 designation on your screen? (such as say, 12-1 for CBS WKRC-DT - Digital/HD - Cincinnati). You should see other numbers besides x.1 from some stations as well, such as 48.2, 48.3, 48.4, 48.5 from WCET-DT, PBS Cincinnati ... Keep in mind, Digital Stations don't send HD all the time -- Only when HD is "available" .. the rest of the time, they send 4x3 SD, just as is on the analog stations, but oftentimes "upconverted" to HD resolutions (It usually won't look a whole lot different in many cases)

What is the Make/Model of Antenna which DirecTV installed in your attic?

What is the Make/Model of the receiver you are using for DirecTV HD/OTA HD reception? Some receivers have certian necessary "settings" that have to be correct before you'll be able to scan for+see the digital stations -- for example, some receivers need a zip code(s) from the area the stations you want to receive so the APG guide info can be "coordinated" for those stations ... Just about all receivers require you to have the Antenna input set for "off-air" reception, instead of "cable" ... If it is set to "cable", then VHF analog stations (ch 2-13) and MAYBE WCPO-DT Digital(ch 10, remaps to 9-x) Cincinnati .. will be all it will be able to "find", as it won't scan UHF channels for signals unless it is set to "off air" or "antenna"/etc ...

Anyone else with TWC HD just lose DiscoverHD, INHD, and INHD2? I turned them on today and now it says I can have those channels back...FOR A PRICE! They now seem to be subscription channels. What a bunch of BS.

Ouch, just when I was thinking about switching to TWC. Any Idea how much $

Just checked TWC in Sidney. DiscoverHD, INHD, and INHD2 all still on w/o subscription, other than digital tier.

Thanks for the info Nitewatchman. When I get home tonight I'll try to check the model of the antenna. The receiver is a Samsung ts160.

I'm sure that the signals are analog. The receiver has 2 to 4 of each local on the guide, It also indicates weather it is an analog, digital, or satellite signal.

I'll also check the settings on the receiver to make sure they are set correctly.

Thanks again for the help. I'll keep you upated

Don

Originally posted by Vader
Anyone else with TWC HD just lose DiscoverHD, INHD, and INHD2? I turned them on today and now it says I can have those channels back...FOR A PRICE! They now seem to be subscription channels. What a bunch of BS.

Yeah me too Vader.

Called them yesterday and they assured me that the channels
are not subscription now.
Made me reboot the STB ect ect.

They scheduled a service call for Friday, even though I told them it
was nothing on my end.

Glad to see your post that confirms that its on their end.

ps I called them again hoping I would get someone that knew what they were doing and got the same response. They called dispatch and they said there were no problems......

Madb

Seems to be the norm. When a system doesn't have enough HD channels to warrant a package, it provides them free. Once they have a few, it becomes a tier. DirecTV and Insight both have nearly identical HD lineups at comparable prices. Originally, HDNet was free on DirecTV, too.

On the plus side, this may mean that TW is ready to add ESPN-HD. As I understand it, ESPN-HD charges a much higher per-subscriber fee than the other HD networks. It's probably easier to provide a package of HD channels for 8 bucks than it is to single out ESPN-HD for $6. And this is also an indication that the number of HDTV owners is becoming large enough to make them worth pursuing. The added income might prompt TW (and other carriers) to add more HD, wheras incurring the expense of additional HD channels for no additional revenue isn't quite as appealing.

This also isn't new. Think of all of the channels that are now part of the digital tier or "extended basic" tier that used to be included with basic.

As tough a pill as it is to swallow, it's better to look at this as a benefit of being an early adopter: you got it when it used to be FREE. All the newcomers have to pay from the get-go.

Doc

Originally posted by Vader
Anyone else with TWC HD just lose DiscoverHD, INHD, and INHD2? I turned them on today and now it says I can have those channels back...FOR A PRICE! They now seem to be subscription channels. What a bunch of BS.

I'm still receiving them without a problem

Originally posted by DJPtron
Thanks for the info Nitewatchman. When I get home tonight I'll try to check the model of the antenna. The receiver is a Samsung ts160.

I'm sure that the signals are analog. The receiver has 2 to 4 of each local on the guide, It also indicates weather it is an analog, digital, or satellite signal.

I'll also check the settings on the receiver to make sure they are set correctly.

Thanks again for the help. I'll keep you updated

Don

DJPtron

I have a TS160, Let me know if I can help. You'll need to get the firmware update, make sure you have the phone line plugged in.

Originally posted by DJPtron
I'll keep you upated
Don

Thanks .. We allways like to hear about how problems are solved, as it helps others ...

What I'm trying to get an idea about is whether the problem you are having with the digital stations may be a reception related problem, or if it's something else ...

Such as perhaps, a problem with the "settings" on your receiver, or even perhaps if everything is hooked up correctly, OR it could be a problem with the integration of Channel tuning/channel remapping info being sent by the station + Guide info/channel remapping info being downloaded from satellite/etc for the Local digital stations in our area --- or something along those lines ...

If it isn't a reception problem, if the manual doesn't tell you enough, perhaps also searching for info in hardware area on the Samsung 160, or even one of the members here with a Samsung 160 could probably help you more ...(update: such as parrot1! I didn't see his post until after I posted this, since we posted at the same time) ....

On the reception side :

1. Assuming your receiver has some sort of "signal meter" for digital stations, Are you getting any sort of indication(to any degree) of signal from the Local Digital stations? Including on the channels the digital stations are actually transmitting on instead of their remapped channels? (remapped channels are likely what you're seeing in the "guide" for digital stations, not the actual channels the station is transmitting on). If you're getting any sort of reception from the analogs off the antenna, you should at least be getting some sort of indication of signal from the digital ...

2. How is your reception of the analog stations(as received off the antenna) in the list I've provided below ? Any(or much) snow/Ghosting on these and if so, which channels are you seeing snow/ghosting on? Are you not receiving some of these channels?

Dayton Analogs:

2,7,16,22,26,40(LP), 45, 47(LP), 55(LP)

Cincinnati Analogs:

5,9,12,19,25(LP), 38(LP), 48, 54, 61(LP), 64

Oxford Analogs:
14, 43

If you aren't receiving the Dayton stations with "LP"(low power) next to them, don't worry ... I wouldn't expect you'd be able to get them all, and even some listed as LP under Cincinnati(probably 54 too) I'd expect to be at least a bit snowy given your location+ that an indoor antenna is being used ...

The reason I'm asking this is, If you can give us an idea concerning what you are/aren't getting with the analog stations, and if you're getting snow/ghosting on certian channels and to what degree, it will tell us something about how well your antenna/reception is working+should be working for reception of digital station, and if your antenna is a directional model, this info might also tell us a little about how it might be aimed...

And again, if you're getting good analog reception(little or no snow ghosting) from most of the stations listed above(excluding perhaps some of the LP's+54), unless something quite odd is going on, you really should be getting good reception from the digital stations as well, and at the very least some sort of indication of signal from at least some of the digital stations involved ...

Called them yesterday and they assured me that the channels
are not subscription now.
Made me reboot the STB ect ect.

Yeah, I finally got a hold of someone in customer service and they assured me too that they haven't become pay channels. So something must be causing a glitch. I need to call customer service again. I called from work today and they said they'd try to send a signal to fix it, but it didn't work.

Update on TWC DiscoveryHD, INHD, INHD:

Finally talked to a customer service rep. The channels are NOT pay channels even though the screen currently says they are. They are having problems on their end and engineering is currently working on resolving it. She said there is nothing to do on the consumer end and the channels will come back on as soon as it is fixed. She didn't give me a timetable.

I feel much better now knowing that I won't have to pay extra for these channels.

Vader

Thanks for the update.

I had a service tech call last night and he asked about the snow I was getting on some channels :eek:

after explaining the problem again his reply was "hmmm"

Still have a service call scheduled for friday, guess I'll keep it
unless the channels come back before then.


"I feel much better now knowing that I won't have to pay extra for these channels."

Me too, but I suspect what DrDon said will come true. Possibly after they add HDmovies and HDnet or ESPN HD, whenever that might be.


Madb

Originally posted by Madb

Me too, but I suspect what DrDon said will come true. Possibly after they add HDmovies and HDnet or ESPN HD, whenever that might be.
Madb

If you check back a few pages in the thread I posted that HDNet and HDMovies are supposed to be added within the next 30 days... That was according to my conversation with TWC Western Ohio's marketing manager... Hopefully it will happen, but i'm not holding my breath...

Browerjs,

yes I recall your post.
Thats why when I first saw the subscription screen on those 3 channels
I thought, they must be getting ready to add the HDNet and HDmovie channels and go to a teir charge.

I guess a teir charge wouldn't be so hard to swallow if they would add some more channels.

Here's an excerpt from an email I received from Time Warner Western Ohio Marketing Manager regarding CBS and ABC. While nothing definitive, it is encouraging that a resolution could be coming soon:

We are negotiating with both ABC and CBS. We too would like to carry both in high def. I would suspect that within the next month or two we should have it wrapped up. CBS gave us permission to carry them in high def not only for the Super Bowl, but through March 3rd. That gives us hope for a speedy resolution.

When i watch WHIO-HD I notice 4 or faint vertical blue lines that go up the left side of the television. Does anyone else have this (with TWC or OTA?) I thought it may be convergence settings, but i don't see this on any other HD channel (or SD channel for that matter)

Hmm, let me check right now.... brb.

Just checked... I'm watching it through TWC and I can just barely see a couple of faint vertical blue lines on the left side. They are VERY faint though and I had to get my face about a foot from the screen to see them. And even then they were only noticeable depending on what the image pattern on the screen was.

I don't notice it on the SD channel.

Anyway, it's not your TV.

It won't find all the references to WHIO-DT + "Blue Lines" in this thread, but try the "Search this thread" function(bottom right of this page) for " Blue Line" and see what you get ....

Originally posted by browerjs
When i watch WHIO-HD I notice 4 or faint vertical blue lines that go up the left side of the television. Does anyone else have this (with TWC or OTA?) I thought it may be convergence settings, but i don't see this on any other HD channel (or SD channel for that matter)

It's funny that you should mention the blue lines on WHIO-DT. I was just having a conversation about that last night with the ISF tech that worked on my TV. Those blue lines have been there going on two years now. It's more obvious on a large display during dark scenes.

Paul

I've noticed the blue lines on occasion.

Originally posted by Paul210
It's funny that you should mention the blue lines on WHIO-DT. I was just having a conversation about that last night with the ISF tech that worked on my TV. Those blue lines have been there going on two years now. It's more obvious on a large display during dark scenes.

Paul

Exactly when i notice them... I have a 48" Mits and can notice them pretty easily from 10 feet away especially when i have the lights out and a dark scene... I'll use the search next time nitewatchman, i didn't recall reading anything about it when i read through the entire thread a month or so ago when i found this forum... (I do recall however the annoying line at the bottom of WRGT)

Thanks for the feedback!

Vader,

Thats great news about CBS and ABC
BTW The missing HD channels returned yesterday so I canceled the service call.

Browerjs,

I have TWC and a OTA tuner cant say I notice the blue lines with either reciever on my 55" Mits. Will have to look closer when I get home tonight

Can't say I've seen those, (OTA, SAMSUNG DLP), I'll check out CSI tonight.

I decided to go to the Rat Shack and get a UHF Yagi and preamp to tinker with.

I now get WKRC, WLWT, and WCET (sometimes) digitals in addition to the Dayton stations. The DTV light blinks for WXIX but won't lock on. Also get some blinking from WSTR but no lock.

Well i got my Samsung SIR-T151 delivered today, and it works great... I get all the dayton stations, but i think i'm gonna return my powered radio shack indoor antenna and try one of the zenith silver sensors as they seem to have better indoor results. My channels go in and out a little too much (granted i didn't have much time to try to find a sweet spot, at lunch)... Anyways i already have a question about the OTA receivers... Which stations should be getting guide information? WDTN-DT and WBDT-DT both have their station names passed down but none of the other dayton stations have this? Do any of the dayton stations pass guide information? I'm not really sure how all that works...

The only one that I have gotten guide information from is WPTD-DT.

1450khz,

That's the way to do it! Any luck at all/indication of signal from the Columbus stations?

I'd think it is a good sign you are getting some indication of signal from WSTR-DT. Unless something has changed(I can't tell here) they are running a 17.1 KW ERP STA. The rest of the Cinci digitals(except WCPO-DT 10 VHF) are at 229~800KW ERP.

Hopefully all it will take is finding a little better "sweet spot" for the antenna or something else fairly simple to improve your reception of Cincy stations. The good thing with DTV is, you don't really need much signal for good reception(15.3db of S/N is the "theoretical" threshold), so you're probably just a few db or so from getting better results from Cincinnati.

I'm assuming you have the antenna outdoors, if not then getting it outdoors should greatly improve things. Also, especially if you have the RS U-75R model instead of the U-120R -- getting an antenna with a bit more gain might be be benifical as well. Also, Unfortunetly, those RS preamps aren't usually that great. While they can have high gain figures, they also have high noise figures and can probably also easily overload+create intermod, and that might be an issue you could be dealing with as well.

browerjs,

Just as 1450khz reported, WPTD-DT 58 (16-x) is the only Dayton station I've seen which sends Program guide info OTA via PSIP. I currently have the guides turned off on my receiver which supports them(DTC-100), so I don't know what the present situation is. Sounds like it isn't the case presently, but IF I recall correctly, I had thought that at least the last time I checked, all the Dayton stations except perhaps WHIO sent Station ID via PSIP info -- For instance, 51-1 was labeled as WKEF-HD, and 51-2 labeled as WKEF-SD.

Channel remapping info, programming guides, station ID can all be sent by stations via something called PSIP, which is basically a protocol which allows the stations to send this sort of "extra" information. Different receivers sometimes implement PSIP a bit differently. Most stations these days don't send programming guides(That would probably cost them about $25K) but we'll probably see more of it in the future. WKEF-DT, WHIO-DT and WKEF-DT also don't currently send Channel remapping info via PSIP, which is why for instance, WKEF-DT shows up on their actual channel their broadcasting on (51) instead of being remapped to 22 ....

I'd guess(let's hope anyway) the Silver sensor will probably improve things quite a bit for you. The advantages it has in comparision to the antenna you are using would be that Silver sensor is a directional antenna(see previous posts/info on directional antennas) and also provides some signal gain on UHF(something like 4.5db or so If I remember right).

Your current antenna is not a directional antenna, and judging by its design, probably provides little, if any gain on any given TV channel over a simple "reference" dipole, the latter which is basically a center fed wire cut to 1/2 wavelength on a specific frequency. From the Pic, it looks like your current antenna is just pretty much, a center fed dipole on VHF(rabbit ears - Which is usually plenty of antenna for VHF/FM in many circumstances), and it looks like it's probably a full wave loop antenna on UHF(provides very little, if any add'l gain over a "reference" dipole - but usually works a tad better on UHF than a 1/2 wave dipole would). I know it says in the info that the amplifier "boosts" the signal by 15db, but amplifiers don't really amplify the signal you're getting at the antenna. What is there, is there, only an antenna with more gain can actually "collect" more of the signal. Not that you really need more signal from the Dayton stations, sounds like for the most part you're getting enough, probably more than enough.

The only disadvantage is that it won't work quite as well as "rabbit ears" on VHF, but if you need VHF reception someday(which you don't for the dayton digitals presently), you should be able to easily add a VHF antenna to the setup.

Thanks for the info... Best Buy has those silver sensor's in stock so i'm looking forward to grabbing one after work and seeing the results... Based on a search over all forums on AVS it looks like the silver sensor has had some great results and in some cases can even pull in digital from stations 45-50 miles away... For 10 bucks more i think it will be worth it... My wife is probably just hoping there isn't a nice weekend day within the next 30 days so i can get up on the roof and try an outdoor antenna :)

Unfortunately, I have to put the antenna in my attic. I'm in a townhouse (rental) so I can't go putting it on top of the building. It's a shame, too, because getting it above the roofline would give me a very nice and clear shot to Cincy. I don't think going outside onto the patio would work, because I'd likely be pointing right at another building instead of over it.

I haven't tried pointing at Columbus yet, although my channel scan did grab a barely perceptible WWHO 53 analog so I *might* get 46.

The Rat Shack pre-amp does suck. I'm getting lots of IM distortion between channels. I was mainly wanting to get something to play with until Warren Electronics can fill my order. I have a CM7777 preamp and a 4221 4-bay UHF antenna on order but I've had them hold it up till the 7777 comes off backorder, though I'm about to see if they can send a 7778 or Winegard amp instead.

Any local dealers for Channel Master gear? I might try that route instead.

I have the U75R. Didn't see any U120R's on the Web, I guess I could have asked in the store. What's the gain like on each?

Dayton Wintronic is where I bought my Channel Master. They have the upper line Crossfire series which may not be carried at Loews, etc.

http://winzone.dapsco.com/includes/sites/style2_homepage.asp?TemplateID=150&CompanyNumber=115&TemplatePkg=1

Paul

Thanks, who did you contact there? (I saw several names listed on the contact info.)

I take it they will sell to individuals then, even though they seem to be more of a contractor supply place.

Also ... Lowes seems to just carry the CM advantage series VHF/UHF combo antennas+the stealthtenna ... They do have the CM9521 Rotor though, and the CM3041 preamp which might work well for you, if you can't get hold of a CM777X or one of the good Blonder-tongue or Winegaurd preamps. Here's the link to lowes info on the CM3041,(hopefully this link will work for you, as I had to put in my zip code for local store to get to it) :

http://www.lowes.com/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=56326-000000693-3041DSB

On the RS U120R -- Unfortunetly, I believe it's been discontinued, although there might be a store or 2 that still has one. I think I had heard some time back(last summer I think) they had them on clearance for something like $3. There was a gain chart for U120R on RS site at one time, but I just checked and can no longer find it ... I'd guess probably something like a 3db improvement over the U75R. Since your indoors and probably need everything you can get, it would Probably be better for you to step up to something like a CM4228 or CM4248 though, if they will "fit" ...

It might also be worthwhile to try what you've got on the balcony too ... Hard to say what is worse, pointing into a building, or having it in your attic -- The thing about the attic is, anything within 10 wavelenths or so "in front" of your antenna becomes especially sort of "connected" to the antenna(which ain't great), so even though there may be obstructions, if the obstruction is farther away than roof of your attic, it still might work better outdoors.

Update: Oh ... I haven't heard anyone talk about this place in a while+I've never ordered from them(but I do recall many used to get stuff from them, and they at least used to sell retail/ship UPS - their site seems to indicate they still do), but here's another place which carries all sorts of antenna/preamp stuff -- Channel Master, Winegaurd, Delhi/Jerrhold, Blonder-Tongue - The works .. this is their Blonder Tongue Preamp page, but you can get to the rest of their antenna stuff off links at bottom of page as well:

http://www.starkelectronic.com/btk1-1.htm

I use the B-T Suburban II here and I've been happy with it, it's "just right" for my location. Since it's been pretty much constantly in use for the last 23 years, I keep meaning to order a new one for when it does kick the bucket, maybe I'd better do that soon given that folks seem to be having a hard time finding amps in stock such as the CM7777! Was sort of hoping the current 10 year old antenna and such would hold out to analog shut off time though, as I might want to do something different once I have a better idea of what the "RF Environment" will be like then .... Of course, I"m too lazy to climb the tower very often too ...

Update 2: I forgot the main page is sort of hard to find from the B-T pages, so Here's the Starkelectronics Main antenna page I bookmarked it this time!(you can get to all the preamps from CM/Winegaurd/etc. from here too) ..

http://www.starkelectronic.com/allant.htm

1450,

Just call the phone number that's listed for Wintronic. They have several sales reps. They've all been helpful and friendly whenever I've called or stopped in.

The store is your typical electronics type supply house. They will sell over the counter and not just to contractors.

Paul

Paul,

Did you happen to find out if they keep much of the Channel Master or Blonder-tongue stuff in stock?

You know, I think I might have purchased something from Wintronic before, been quite a while back, but something "clicked" and when I looked at the directions/map to their location on their site, and I think I'm pretty sure I've been up there, as well as have seen them with a booth at Dayton Hamvention, perhaps with some Towers on display, and maybe some specials on Coax ... Anyhow, Seems like I also recall them being friendly+helpful.

Sounds like they Could be very useful for TV reception stuff, as it looks like they carry Channel Master/Blonder-tongue/antennacraft, as well as Belden cable/Rohn(towers - very good ones) .... I'd much rather deal with a local business like that when possible and pick the stuff up myself rather than buying stuff on net and having it shipped via UPS or whatever.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
1450khz,

Channel remapping info, programming guides, station ID can all be sent by stations via something called PSIP, which is basically a protocol which allows the stations to send this sort of "extra" information. Different receivers sometimes implement PSIP a bit differently. Most stations these days don't send programming guides(That would probably cost them about $25K) but we'll probably see more of it in the future. WKEF-DT, WHIO-DT and WKEF-DT also don't currently send Channel remapping info via PSIP, which is why for instance, WKEF-DT shows up on their actual channel their broadcasting on (51) instead of being remapped to 22 ....


Jeff -

My STB (HD300) apparently automatically remapps all of the Dayton locals. i.e. 7, 7.1, 22, 22.1... It also provides all of the program guides for them. Is that a hardware function of the box, or is it receiving it from OTA? I was just curious after reading your post.

Mike

BTW, I finally purchased a RS 15-2160 UHF antenna yesterday. I ended up having to mount it on the side of the house, but it has done an impeccable job of picking up all of the Dayton locals...at least much better than the old rabbit ears I original success with. Unfortunately, I have not been able to pick up anything from Cincy, but I am not too surprised because although I have it mounted outside, it is below the roof line and right across the street from a number of high trees.

Originally posted by MNLang
Jeff -

My STB (HD300) apparently automatically remapps all of the Dayton locals. i.e. 7, 7.1, 22, 22.1... It also provides all of the program guides for them. Is that a hardware function of the box, or is it receiving it from OTA? Your box is getting the information from DirecTV's Advanced Program Guide, not the PSIPs of the local stations. My Zenith 1080 gets all of that, too, although it compares the APG with the PSIP. I get a channel marker, banner and program guide for 22-1. But I have to punch in 51-1 to watch because WKEF-DT doesn't place remapping information in the PSIP. This is confirmed by my ATSC-only Samsung T-151, which has only the PSIP to rely on.

Doc

Jeff,

I'm not sure how much of the stuff Wintronic has in stock. I know they had most of what I needed. That's where I bought my CM 3671, mast, coax and rotator wire. The CM rotator I wanted was on back-order at the time so I had to pay quite a bit more for it at Lowes. I didn't realize they carried the Blonder-tongue line. I would say it's worth a phone call to them anytime you're looking for something. Like I said, I appreciated the fact they were all so helpful and friendly. I was like a kid in a candy store when I walked in and saw all the parts and electronics stuff. It's also pretty handy for me because it's located just down the street from where I work off S. Dixie.

Paul

I might take a jaunt over there during lunch break or something, since I have quick access to 4 from my office (near WPAFB area B).

hey guys, I'm looking for an avia disk or something similar. Is there anywhere I can go locally to pick it up or should I order it online?

jbh, Don't know if they have them in stock at the local stores or not, but this post from the direct-view area indicates bestbuy.com/circutcity.com has them :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3411776#post3411776

thoughts on Shrek? I thought the overal PQ was really nice, but did anyone else get annoyed with the long nbc logo display? What was the deal with that? And another thing, did anyone else notice a crackling noise every so often only on 51-1 not 51-2?

Originally posted by jbh613
thoughts on Shrek? I thought the overal PQ was really nice, but did anyone else get annoyed with the long nbc logo display? What was the deal with that? And another thing, did anyone else notice a crackling noise every so often only on 51-1 not 51-2?

I watched Shrek last Sunday when it premiered on NBC and it had that crackling noise... It was a national problem, if you look in the HDTV programming thread there are a lot of people that bitched about it... I do agree Shrek looked great though!!!

jbh613,

The reason the NBC logo(peacock+Flag) is there at times on 51-1 is because that is where Local commercials go. The Master Control operator would have to manually keep switching the local ad breaks in and out with their current setup, which would only probably increase the amount of missing HD, and also, he/she is probably already quite busy multasking numerous other tasks. Once they get their new automated switching equipment installed, there should be local commericals there instead of the blank screen+NBC logos.

I've been watching HD "Cast Away" on WDTN-DT/WCPO-DT, but I did tune to WKEF-DT at one point for a few mintues and also noticed the popping sounds. Didn't hear it on WLWT-DT, but again, I didn't tune into HD Shrek for very long ...

FYI - WPTD-DT looks to be having their Exciter problem again (Sun 2/22 4:30pm EST) .... At least the last time this happened it was reported by their CE to be an exciter problem .... I just sent their CE a note ...

DTV receiver's can't see it, but they are putting a signal out of sorts on Ch 58, which you should be able detect with a non-screen blanking analog TV ... More info+screenshots of what it looks like on a analog TV in previous post on this thread ...

Just wanted to let anyone here know who is trying to tune them in this afternoon The problem is "not is not in your set or with your antenna" ...

I noticed the funny signal today while I had a 5" B&W set hooked to my antenna.

Edit: it seems to be fixed now.

I decided to fiddle with the antenna some and do some probing using the Cincy analogs and that portable TV. Tonight I'm actually getting WXIX, but now I can't get WDTN, WKEF, or WRGT digitals.

Anyone have an update on when the new equipment will be installed and working over at WRGT? We haven't heard from Roland for awhile

I just signed up for TWC Digital Cable (South Dayton, Miami Township) along with an HDTV set-top box and am wondering what brand and model of STB I might be getting. Does anyone know what kind of hardware they're using these days?

I'm hoping that it will have both SVideo and component outputs so I can feed my TiVo with the SVideo signal, and go directly to my Panasonic TH-42PWD6UY with the component signal. Does this sound possible and reasonable?

Thanks!

Though I'm not at home, I do know that my TWC STB is a Pioneer model. I know it has component and DVI outputs (though I have not tried the latter to see if it is active), and *think* it has S-Video, but I'm not sure. FWIW, TWC should be rolling out HD PVR/STBs later in the year, and I will have to look hard at trying that out.

Hang on, let me look for a link...

This should lead you to whatever you need to know:

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/learn/about/chapters/0,,2076_3105627_3105663,00.html

The box TWC gave me is a Scientific Atlanta.

Blabes12

Welcome!

It should be no problem.
I have the pioneer 3000 or 3500
It has S-video, component and DVI outputs
It also has a digital audio out.


JFYI the DVI output works on mine
until I shut the TV off for the night,
Next day its outputing 480p until I reboot it
It just started doing this so it may be the STB going bad



Mad

Thanks Madb, Vader, and, HangEmHi.

Looks like most of the modern HD STB's have both svideo and component outputs always active, which should work just fine for my setup. The product docs for the Pioneer model from HangEmHi's reference even suggest that configuration when connecting with a VCR... which is kind of what the TiVo is. May lightning strike me for equating a TiVo with a VCR. :-)

I guess it's a bit of a crap shoot as to which make and model actually shows up.. I'll repost when it's all in place. According to the phone rep, the technician is supposed to provide cables for the hook-up, too. I'm betting that s/he won't have BNC component cables in the truck!

My experience was:

First trip, installer did not have a HD box, only a regular box. (This led to a $30 credit). Second trip, guy was nice, but had no clue about digital audio. He was ready to hook it up with cheap TWC supplied component cable and a stereo cable. On the plus side, he did give me a better quality splitter than I had been using.

HD channels are a lot fussier than the "regular" channels (hence the benefit of a better splitter), and eventually they had to come out on a service call and fix something on the box attached to the house (a filter of some sort related to cable internet, which I do not use) which was affecting some of the HD channels.

I noticed that FCC recently granted WDTN-DT a CP MOD to increase power to 1000KW ERP(Which is maximum "DTV ERP" allowed on UHF). Also, heard from Jim Atkinsion, CE at WDTN-DT today, and he said he thinks they will be at 1MW by Mid-may ....

They are currently using a 125KW ERP STA with the same antenna they'll be using at 1000KW(it's higher than the Channel 2 antenna on the tower, if I remember right), which seems to get out very well presently also.

The predicted coverage area for the full power facility, as shown in the detailed tech exhibit they sent FCC along with the CP MOD application reaches from a few miles South of Independance, KY all the Way North to Celina ... Hillsboro, London, OH, and Connersville, IN are also included in the predicted coverage area, which comes quite close to West side of Columbus as well ... ALL of Cincy metro area Within I-275 loop, including a bit more in N. KY is within the predicted City grade contour, as are locations N of Dayton such as Sidney, Ft. Laramie and Minster ...They are using a non-directional antenna, so the predicted coverage area is pretty much "circular" ....

Finally got good enough conditions to pull in WOSU-DT 38 (34-x remap) Columbus tonight ... DTV Log #47 here - 88 miles screenshot attached:

Hepburn's Tropo DX forecast showed that conditions would be good last night and even better tonight. I noticed I could pick up WOSU-DT over a very wide angle (> 20 degrees) last night, whereas I usually only get them over a 5 degree angle. Even WOSU analog came through pretty strong with WCET-DT up, which is quite unusual as that is my worst case of co-channel interference and I never get a decent signal until WCET-DT goes off the air.

I played around a little bit and picked up WNDY-DT and the Ft Wayne and (WIBH) anaogs last night also.

Greg,

Thank goodness for directional antennas+the notch filters in our DTV receivers that for the most part seem to do a decent job "filtering out" the visual/aural carriers from analog Co-channel interference(CCI). I know I had expected CCI to end up being more of a problem during DTV transistion than has seemed to be the case, and at least so far I'm glad for the most part I've been pleasantly surprised.

Hopefully we'll see some more stuff tonight, too. I've had quite a few quite interesting simultanous co-channel receptions here. I've seen WOSU 34 through WCET-DT, but its usually pretty nasty looking - I didn't really see WOSU 34 last night until after after WCET-DT went down. Also, last night, WOTH-LP 38 Cincy + WRCX-LP 40 Dayton "off the side" didn't seem to be hurting my reception of WOSU-DT 38 or WTVQ-DT 40 Lexington, KY. I also had WKMR 38, morehead, KY in last night as well. WBQC-CA 25 Cincy is supposed to move to 38+increase power however, and I assume when that happens, it will make DX'ing on 38 a bit more difficult here. I was also seeing another common station via tropo here last night, WNWO 24 (NNE) Toledo through WCVN-DT 24 (S), although it was fairly weak+unstable. I have an extrememly diffiuclt terrain issue to the West+NW of my location, so I haven't had much luck with the Indy/Ft. Wayne DT's. I wanted to scan around early this morning, when tropo is often best, but I ended up reading my eyelids a little longer instead.

Of course however, if you have 2 co-channel stations with towers "lined up" in the same direction from your location, they can be more problematical when a little tropo pops up. For instance, WPXK 54, Jellico, TN(234 Miles) is lined up with WCVN 54, Covington, KY(39 miles) for me, and I often see CCI to WCVN from WPXK --- sometimes I see a slight bit of CCI to WCVN from the South on a nightly basis, and Probably on average of once every month or so, WPXK will completely take over from WCVN, sometimes for hours at at time. I have also seen WKS0-DT 29, Somerset KY(168 Miles - S) affect the signal quality readings I get from a very strong signal from WXIX-DT(32 Miles - S), and on a couple of rare occasions, a rare dropout or two.

2 of the most interesting Co-channel receptions I've had here were WBXX-DT 50, Crossville, TN(240 miles - S) Through WDTN-DT 50(12 miles - NE) and WSFJ 51 (109 miles - ENE) through WKEF-DT 51(13 mi - NE). On these occasions, as with the following example, given proper antenna aiming solid reception of the local DT's was not affected by the extra "noise" from the CCI. It was difficult to get a lock on WBXX-DT however .. I had to keep punching in "50" manually and adjusting the antenna heading by a degree or so ... I figured since analog WBXX 20 was pretty much a "city grade" signal at the time, the DT signal had to be there to some extent too+ that's about the best spot for the antenna to reject as much signal from Dayton as possible.... BTW, WBXX 20, analog is one of the most common analog receptions here from beyond 150 miles, and I'm sure you'll see it quite often as well....

In addition to WCPO 14+WCMH-DT 14, One of the most common co-channel receptions I have involves local WBDT-DT 18 Dayton(13 miles - NE) and WLEX 18 (105 mi - South) -- Getting good reception from the Lexington stations is often a nightly occurance during much of the spring/summer/fall months here. Yet I've still yet to see a dropout on WBDT-DT Since it came up early last year. This happened last night as well, but I wasn't quite getting as good quality from WLEX as I did several times last year, which was when I took the attached screenshots -- These screenshots(WLEX 18 on Left, WBDT-DT 18 on right) were taken of both stations at the same time, using different antennas(1 aimed towards South, 1 aimed towards NE/Dayton) ...

Hello,

First day posting here. I've read several posts and sorry if this has been mentioned but whats everyones preference in our area in terms of digital and high def quality. I was TWC and am supposed to get a free super dish and free 811 installed monday with a "silver sensor" (i'm about 20 mi from dayton about 40-50 from col). Whats your guys choice in terms of service- TWC, Dish, Direct tv, voom?

Again sorry if this issue has been touched on in a prior thread or page. This just looked like the best place for me to ask this question.

jenkins,

Welcome to Dayton Thread!

I think there's a great variety of preferences here. For HD, Some prefer cable, some prefer cable+OTA, some prefer DBS+OTA, some prefer OTA. Unless something has changed recently, Dayton TW/TW Western Ohio doesn't offer a few of the local stations, including CBS HD (WHIO-DT) or ABC HD(WDTN-DT), nor WBDT-DT -- the latter Which doesn't have WB HD yet. TW Dayton/Western OH has been carrying WHIO-DT since around Superbowl under a temporary arragnement that has been reported should be over in a few days. They also carried the USA HD coverage from master's tournement last year, CBS+USA "partenered" on the coverage, but for any of the rest of the CBS HD WHIO-DT has been broadcasting over the past 2.5 years, you'd have to use an antenna ...Same thing for ABC HD from WDTN-DT since early last year.

We've heard recently that TW Dayton might be carrying WHIO-DT/WDTN-DT "soon", but we've heard that before several times over the last year+ as well. Also currently missing is Fox Widescreen from Fox Dayton, although we've heard recently that WRGT-DT should be getting it "soon"(as well as Fox HD this fall), and WRGT-DT is already carried by TW Dayton. Another problem with Cable, is that it also doesn't carry HD/DTV stations from other markets(such as Cincinnati or Columbus) which many in the area can receive OTA, depending upon the receiving location ...

Especially if you're going to be using a indoor antenna, OTA reception can sometimes be like a "box of chocolates" however. In addition to greatly attenuating the signal by having the antenna indoors(which also increases potential for difficulty with multipath issues), depending upon your exact location, terrain issues(which would effect outdoor antenna as well) can be particularly troublesome. You would of course, also want to use a directional antenna(such as the silver sensor), which needs to be aimed at the broadcasting towers --- Obviously, Columbus+Dayton Transmitting towers are in different directions from you ...

Hopefully the silver sensor will work well enough for Dayton for you, but, at 40-50 miles, hard to say ---- but Columbus is probably going to be a long shot with an indoor antenna - Also, Silver sensor is a UHF only antenna, ABC Columbus(WSYX-DT 13) is on VHF 13. An outdoor, directional antenna setup, either w/rotor or 2 antennas on seperate feedline for Dayton+Columbus respectively would probably be the best way for you to go, although I'd expect you'll have at least some luck from indoors too, especially for Dayton stations. Depending upon how far South you are, Cincinnati stations might even be an option as well.

Anyhow, to get back to your question, personally, I don't do sat or cable. I'm perfectly happy with OTA TV/DTV/HD and DVD's -I Am looking forward to HD-DVD "one of these days" ..... I receive DTV/HD service from 14 local DTV stations in Dayton/Cincinnati area, 10 of which do HD or Fox widescreen presently ...

If I did want cable or satellite, I'd likely go with DirecTV+OTA, mostly for HD reasons. That would probably be true even if cable served my rural location, which it doesn't and probably never will.

Anyhow, let us know how you're setup works out, hopefully you'll be enjoying HD very soon! --- I tend to try to be a little "cautious" about antenna stuff, but many folks have had good success with antennas such as the Silver sensor. It's a good place to start as it's inexpensive+easy to "work with".

Also, in case it helps+if you haven't seen it, here's a thread with a rundown of pretty much all the HD programming services out there --

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=164671

jenkinswoody,

I have DirecTV, overall I'm pleased with the quality of Service, but I'm hoping for more full time HD channels. My STB provides me with both Local OTA & DirecTV in one channel guide. I Really like having ESPN-HD, so D* was the best fit for me.

I have thought about Zoom, but I'd like to see a good demo First.

Noticed the last couple of days on my receiver that WPTD-DT is remapping to 16-2~6 instead of the usual 16-1~5, with HD on 16-6 last night. All 4 SD services were also up last night alongside PBS HD.

Really enjoying some of the PBS HD/Widescreen programming lately here -- Most recently: Frontline, Innovation, Nova/etc, and tonight, the "Concert for George" :-) It's great to have 12 hours of Nightly PBS HD channel from WPTD-DT(6pm~6am), and if you miss it at 8pm, from 11pm~2am you get the prime time schedule again on WPTD-DT.

Interesting the differing amounts of PBS HD/SD Widescreen you get depending upon your local station, I guess we are pretty lucky here in the Dayton area ...

On another note, I've noticed that when I've checked or have been watching, WKEF-DT has been doing an excellent job passing through all the NBC HD programming.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
Noticed the last couple of days on my receiver that WPTD-DT is remapping to 16-2~6 instead of the usual 16-1~5, with HD on 16-6 last night. All 4 SD services were also up last night alongside PBS HD.

Really enjoying some of the PBS HD/Widescreen programming lately here -- Most recently: Frontline, Innovation, Nova/etc, and tonight, the "Concert for George" :-) It's great to have 12 hours of Nightly PBS HD channel from WPTD-DT(6pm~6am), and if you miss it at 8pm, from 11pm~2am you get the prime time schedule again on WPTD-DT.


Jeff - Thank you for your kind comments... Regarding the re-mapping; Our PSIP generator hick-upped at some point and time, and reset to the default of 16.1~5. When we realized the error, we reset them to our preferred settings of .2~.6 (Apparently there are a series of receivers out there that don't like to get programming on the .1 channel?)

In regards to our prime time schedule... you should also check out our 16Prime service on 16.4 (soon to become 16.3). That service features a rotating series of 4 hour blocks of our Pime time schedule. A detailed schedule is available on our web at thinktv.org.

And now... I'll go back to lurking...

Originally posted by Charles Cole
Regarding the re-mapping; Our PSIP generator hick-upped at some point and time, and reset to the default of 16.1~5. When we realized the error, we reset them to our preferred settings of .2~.6 (Apparently there are a series of receivers out there that don't like to get programming on the .1 channel?)


Charles,

Thanks for the info. As allways, we appreciate your participation here.

In case it helps:

I've never had a problem getting to any of the WPTD-DT DTV programming services, but follows are some things I've noticed :

The hiccup must have happened months and months ago, as it has been 16.1~5 for quite some time -- I do remember it had been 16-2~6 back last summer for a time. Also, I've noticed a couple of other short periods(last time was just a couple of days ago) when my Zenith HDV420 receiver wouldn't remap WPTD-DT at all, when that occurs, it shows up on 58-2~6.

Also, On my DTC-100, If I turn Channel remapping off, (among other PSIP related things affected by changing Guides on/off function on DTC-100), I allways see WPTD-DT on 58-2~6, with channel remapping turned on, it's "usually" 16-1~5 and sees them all just fine.

It has been a while since I've had channel remapping(guides) turned on on the DTC-100, but in the past, with the guides turned on(no problem with guides off), I have noticed that the receiver "locked up" and produced a blank screen on WPTD 16 NSTC when switching(via channel up/down button) from 16-1 to WPTD 16 analog, or from WPTO 14 to WPTD 16 analog, and I assumed that it must have something to do with something in the PSIP tables from WPTD-DT which DTC-100 doesn't like. I haven't seen this problem occur from any other station.

FWIW, DTC-100 is the only receiver I know of which lets you turn off Channel remapping via PSIP function, although some PC tuner cards might be able to do this too.

What did WHIO do last year for the NCAA tournament? Did they multicast all 4 games? Did they show the HD feed even if it wasn't within the games of "local" intrest? Just wondering what i should be expecting in the coming months

Thanks

Thanks for your input guys. I have to make sure that I figure out The best way to set up my OTA before March Madness. There is alot of good information in this thread- now to sift through it! lol Its really nice that you guys have a thread to share ideas- way cool!

Watching "Concert for George" tonight on 16-6 but it seems like all the subchannels are running for some reason.

Can't speak for WHIO, but WKRC-DT fed all four feeds 3 years ago. The last couple of years they fed the HD game regardless of what was on WKRC analog. No clue, this year, as the Chief Engineer who was there, then (and is quite the HD afficianado) is with WCPO-TV/DT now.

Doc

My memory could be fuzzy(beer will do that), But seems like last year I saw more HD games on WKRC-DT than WHIO-DT. If I remember right also seems like last year for the most part whatever game was on analog WHIO 7 was also on the DT (41-1+41-2), If that game was HD, then it was HD on 41-1 ....

If I recall correctly however, I think I did notice at least one exception last year with a different HD game on 41-1 than was in SD on 41-2 and 7. Could be remembering it wrong, but seems like in 2002, there may have been more different games on 41-1 than was on 41-2+7. Who knows what they'll do this year. I believe WBNS-DT Columbus does, or has done the multicasting quite a bit .. NCAA tourney being the only time they do it ..

jenkinswoody,

It IS really cool :-) Can't thank AVSforum enough for being here for us, as well as everyone who participates in our area threads.

1450khz,

Noticed that too, as was the case last night. I has happened before from them on occasion for a few days at a time as well ... Really increases the problems with compression artifacts(which was more of a problem considering the programming last night than was the case tonight), so I quickly switched to HD from WCET-DT and/or WCVN-DT(Compression artifacts still a problem with them too, but it's 2SD+1HD as is the usual case with WPTD-DT) .... Just caught the last hour of the show, as I have to admit I find myself enjoying "The O.C." on occasion, so had to catch that in Fox Widescreen on WXIX-DT at 9 and will have to either record 1st 1/2 of the show tonight at 12 from 16.6 or watch it during some other HD airing ...

http://dayton.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2004/03/01/daily25.html?jst=b_ln_hl

This raises the question of what WKEF will do about HD or about the networks at all. Will they change to 720p at WKEF? Will WKEF then join the rest of Sinclair's ABC stations with For Sale signs in front of them? Or, will Sinclair move Fox down to 22 (which they own) so they can put ABC on 45 (which they only have an LMA with)?

Just thought it was interesting.

(There's a long discussion about it at radio-info.com's TV board)

- Trip

Well, rats. So much for the MNF viewing experience unless the new home for ABC decides to pass 5.1.

Does WCPO-DT do 5.1? I wonder if I have a shot at picking them up or if WBNS analog on 10 will blank them out.

Ouch. I wonder how this will play out. After "friends" is done, is the NBC primetime lineup that strong? Law & Order maybe, but that's it. No major sports, no must see TV. I guess in the long run I could careless, as long as both WKEF & WDTN pass on as much HD content as possible. (with 5.1 & full bandwith allocation.)

"Concert for George" was unwatchable, usually 16-6 has much better PQ.

Quick question, will TWC continue to carry WKEF? You TWC folks may get MNF.

Originally posted by Trip in VA

Will WKEF then join the rest of Sinclair's ABC stations with For Sale signs in front of them? Or, will Sinclair move Fox down to 22 (which they own) so they can put ABC on 45 (which they only have an LMA with)?

- Trip

Thanks for the info Trip, very interesting. I'll have to check that out on radioinfo.com. Things do seem a little cloudy right now for WRGT/WKEF. Will be interesting to see what happens.

Also something that might be of interest here --- Sinclair has tried to have ownership transfered from Cunningham to Sinclair for WRGT-DT(and several other cunningham stations which Sinclair operates under LMA : WVAH Huntington/Charleston, WV and WTTE 28 Columbus to Name a couple) several times, the latest application for transfer/assignment of license for WRGT to Sinclair was just dismissed by FCC on 2/26/04. WKEF/WRGT are co-located.

Lets hope there are no SD subchannels after WDTN-DT makes the switch, In which case summer HD Olympics Coverage should look very good - Will be interesting to compare to WLWT-DT.

A little history ... As mentioned in the article, WDTN was NBC prior to the early 80's, when their callsign was WLWD - Which was owned by AVCO in the 60's and 70's, and before that, they were part of the Crosley Television network(Flagship station WLWT Cincinnati - now owned by Hearst Argyle, and still NBC), which had close ties to NBC. Crosley/Avco produced a lot of local/regional programming such as Midwestern Hayride, Paul Dixon Show, Bob Braun Show/etc .... Many of the Reds Games were also broadcast regionwide over the WLW-X network - There were stations in Columbus, Indy, and I believe Louisville as well. Some of the earlier stuff, such as Midwestern Hayride I believe was even picked up by NBC. WKEF was ABC prior to the early 80's as well.

Originally posted by 1450KHZ
Does WCPO-DT do 5.1? I wonder if I have a shot at picking them up or if WBNS analog on 10 will blank them out.


CCI issue for WBNS/WCPO-DT might be quite a bear in your location. You've probably got some sort of shot at it, but you'll want to use the most directional, outdoor hi-band VHF antenna you can find. If you want a broadband VHF antenna(2-13), Delhi-Jerrold VIP-937SR would probably be about the best choice.

Here, just about anytime I point the antenna towards Columbus(78 Miles), there's just enough NTSC signal there that my DTC-100 locks onto the analog signal from WBNS, and because of the goofiness of the NTSC/ATSC integration in the DTC-100, I have to re-channel scan to see WCPO-DT again(32 miles) once I reaim antenna. I can even get WCPO-DT just fine with rabbit Ears from Indoors, though.

WCPO-DT doesn't do DD 5.1 presently. I'm not positive, but I believe they have plans to offer DD 5.1 once they move into the new facility they've built. I think the move is planned for June, Presently. Doc posted more info in the Cincy thread.

You might have a better shot at ABC HD from WSYX-DT 13 Columbus, though. They are also a Sinclair Owned station, but they do ABC HD and their upconverts from SD look VERY good. I can't recall if they do DD 5.1 or not. They are the most often seen Columbus DT station here, I get indication of their signal on the meter just about all the time, doesn't take much "tropo" to get a lock on them.

Originally posted by parrot1
Quick question, will TWC continue to carry WKEF?

Awfully hard to even guess what is going to happen with WKEF/WRGT at this point.

update: I did just notice that WKEF/WRGT website has just changed quite a bit from what it looked like a couple of days ago :

http://www.wkef22.com/dayton_oh/

Oops, what's this "WB22 News Tip Line" thing down at the bottom!

Looks like the area code's for another city though.

Yeah ... Check out the paragraph in the top of "station info" too ... Concerns other Sinclair affiliate in N.C. -- WLFL ... The other Contact info for WKEF/WRGT is correct though .... (updated) : Didn't see it at first, but the Tech/engineering department as well as other departments is now available through a drop down contact forum in the "Contact NBC 22/Fox 45" link.

Originally posted by Trip in VA
(There's a long discussion about it at radio-info.com's TV board)
- Trip

Sorry for all the posts ... This is some "big news" for us though ...

Found the thread at radio-info.com ... One correction to a post there for those who may have read it ... while it is true that WKEF-DT DOES do NBC HD (every since they first came on air in 2/02 for NBC HD Olympics), even though it says on Sinclair website that WRGT-DT is "HD-ready", WRGT-DT Does NOT do FOX WS yet(on air since 5/1/02). It's just 480i 4x3 SD.

Their CE had recently told us on this very thread, some 3 weeks ago that they had just received all of the equipment necessary to pass through Fox Widescreen(or "anything that fox sends them" to be more precise), as well as to automate switching for HD/Fox WS/etc. on WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT. My understanding is that WTTE-DT 36, Fox/Sinclair(LMA) Columbus does do Fox widescreen ... I did see them a couple of times last summer, but not during Fox WS programming.

Evidently, in order to do Fox Widescreen(or HD in the future once Fox installs the Splicing equipment --- I'm not sure, but I'm guessing they may have been planning on upconverting Fox WS+the local stuff to 720p)--- In addition to the equipment for automated switching, all they needed for WRGT-DT was an upconverter -- So, along with being listed on Sinclair Website as "HD-ready" I assume their encoder can already do HD.

Anyhow, We haven't seen any change(still hard switching to NBC HD+no local ad inserts on WKEF-DT, WRGT-DT still all 480i SD 4x3 only), and haven't heard anything new. Their CE had also either told us here(or me privately, don't recall) they had planned to have the new equipment installed for Fox Widescreen/Automated switching on WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT within 1-2 weeks, but that he was short on staff, and had a number of folks sick. That was of course, 3+ weeks ago.

I'm not sure, but I believe around the time WKEF-DT came on air, NBC was providing at least some of the equipment needed for HD pass through by affiliates. I was told by someone at Sinclair that the reason why we have NBC HD from WKEF-DT is because of efforts made by station personel at WKEF. So, I don't know what the prospects are for HD from WKEF-DT in the future ...

We should probably contact them and perhaps Sinclair(or try at least) fairly soon to see what we can find out, or hopefully Roland, or Avsfourm member MrDTV of Sinclair(whom has visited us+helped us out before here on this very thread) can join us. I was planning on sending Roland a note in a week or so to try to get an update on the "Fox WS/Automated switching on WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT situation", but looks like I/we will have a lot more questions now too ....

Nitewatchman,

Did you notice the that WKEF's affiliation agreement is set to expire April 1. Wouldn't that make the time line quicker than the mentioned early summer? How long will it take for WKEF & ABC to reach an agreement.

Is there any chance that we could be without ABC for a period of time?

Well, in their recent filing with SEC ( Here : http://biz.yahoo.com/e/040227/sbgi10-k.html ) ( mentioned in the Dayton Business Journal), which was just filed on 2/27/04 concerning this matter Sinclair says:

"The NBC affiliation agreements with WICS/WICD (Champaign/Springfield, Illinois) and WKEF-TV (Dayton, Ohio) are scheduled to expire on April 1, 2004. NBC recently informed us that they intend to terminate our affiliations in Dayton and Champaign/Springfield effective on or about September 2004 and September 2005, respectively, in order to affiliate with another station in each of those markets. We are currently engaged in discussions with the ABC Television Network regarding affiliating with ABC in those two markets since the stations which are scheduled to acquire the NBC affiliations in Dayton and Champaign/Springfield are currently ABC affiliates and will be giving up that affiliation in order to become NBC affiliates."

:end quote

So, According to article in Dayton Business Journal, looks like the switch on WDTN will happen "sometime" this summer, so I suppose it might be late summer before we see what happens with WKEF, and if there are also any changes at WRGT.

Will be interesting to see if anything changes with WRGT/WKEF news as well. WSTR(WB Cincinnati, also owned by Sinclair), Never had news until recently, when they began offering Sinclair's NewsCentral, along with local news reports between 10-11pm. It's actually quite well done(not that we needed 5 local stations doing News in Cincy), and the SD(480i SD only presently) quality is outstanding from WSTR-DT during local news programming. Probably the best looking SD I've ever seen broadcast, never knew it could look that good.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Watching "Concert for George" tonight on 16-6 but it seems like all the subchannels are running for some reason.

It is fixed tonight(programming on 16.2 SD/16.4 SD/16.6 HD as "usual"), Thanks ThinkTV!

1450Khz and Jeff,

I don't have too much trouble receiving WCPO-DT from here in Huber Heights. For WCPO-DT, I have to point 20 to 30 degrees further west to get WBNS behind me on my Winegard PR5030 antenna on the tower. The Delhi VIP-307SR has better directivity and gets WCPO-DT dead on.

With 1450Khz further east, WBNS will be slightly more behind, so as Jeff said, a good outdoor directional VHF antenna should do fine.

I actually have more problems the other way around. The WBNS analog signal has digital noise from WCPO-DT in it, although it is not too bad.

Greg

Greg+1450khz,

I'm glad Greg posted the info about his Delhi antenna, as that is the model I had meant to refer to instead of the Delhi 937 which I reffered to in my earlier post, which I think is a VHF/UHF combo.

On VHF, I have heard instances when folks have gotten quite different results with this sort of CCI issue if they move the antenna posistion laterally several feet, or you might not have problems, but your neighbor might.

A looong time ago,(back in late 2001 probably), I recall there was a poster in Hillsboro, Ohio who had the CCI problem between WCPO-DT/WBNS. It is the only instance I can recall in which someone didn't have much luck solving the problem. I've never heard from anyone around Wilmington though, and that might be an especially difficult spot.

I think the felow in Hillsboro was using a RS VU190 or a similar VHF/UHF combo with a Log-periodic design on the VHF section, so that wouldn't have had anywhere near the rejection off the side you'd get from a VIP-307SR, and there are lots of other antennas that would have probably worked better for him as well.

I have heard of some viewers Between Indy+Cincy who have had some CCI issues with WCPO 9, and WISH-DT 9 Indy as well.

It will be interesting to see what happens come "channel election", as well as analog shut off time, hopefully it won't be too difficult for stations which will have a choice to make the best choices on channel election ....

Found another article concerning Ch2's Switch to NBC

The Time Warner Cable tech showed up last night and installed a Pioneer Voyager 3510HD set-top-box for me.

(http://www.pioneerbroadband.com/products/voyager3510hd.asp)

It's possible that readers of this forum may already be aware of this (:-) but HD is pretty amazing! I was almost uncomfortable with the realism of Leno last night... it was like Christina Ricci was in the room!

I'm currently using composite to go from the STB to the (non-HD) TiVo, then Svideo from the TiVo to the TV. The picture quality from that path is actually pretty decent. I also have a component cable going directly from the STB to the TV for watching HD shows.

Wow.

.. it was like Christina Ricci was in the room!

I'd like to have Christina Ricci in my room. ;)

Madb,

Thanks for the link. According to article, looks like "around Sept 1" WDTN will be switching to NBC, and at this point anyway, looks like we should still get NBC Summer Olympics coverage from WKEF.

Blabes,

Certianly! Now you know why I tune to HD Tonight show sometimes ... Show your neighbors, friends and guests that It's like looking through a window as compared to looking through saran wrap ;-) - Well, SD isn't usually quite that bad but you get the idea.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Update: WB is going to begin airing LOTR Trilogy in HD (see here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=375580 ), beginning with first movie this fall ... Anyone hear any news concerning When Will we might start seeing WB HD from WBDT-DT?

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
It has been a while since I've had channel remapping(guides) turned on on the DTC-100, but in the past, with the guides turned on(no problem with guides off), I have noticed that the receiver "locked up" and produced a blank screen on WPTD 16 NSTC when switching(via channel up/down button) from 16-1 to WPTD 16 analog, or from WPTO 14 to WPTD 16 analog, and I assumed that it must have something to do with something in the PSIP tables from WPTD-DT which DTC-100 doesn't like.

As an update, turned the "off air guides"(channel remapping/other PSIP stuff) function on on DTC-100 today, and I'm not seeing the problem described above with WPTD-DT in its current configuration. I'm not currently getting the off air programming guide info via PSIP from WPTD-DT on DTC-100, however.

WCET-DT, WCVN-DT and WLWT-DT Cincinnati seem to be the only 3 stations in the area currently sending off-air guide programming schedule info. Guide info is working fine w/DTC-100 from WCVN-DT/WCET-DT, sometimes guide info from WLWT-DT is working, sometimes it isn't.

Interesting news on the WDTN switch to NBC. I heard from a friend "in the know" at WDTN that this was going to happen, but it was being kept quiet. Apparently he didn't read the DDN the other day...LOL. Oh well, I guess WKEF rakes in the money from advertising with NBC. You would never know it by walking through their studios though...

I got my CM4221 and 7777 preamp in finally :D

I had to do some fishing to find a spot where it will work but right now I have it where I can easily turn to switch station sets.

The best part is that I found out pointing at Columbus will get me WBNS-DT.

So far I have:
All Dayton stations.

Cincy: WLWT 35, WKRC 31, WXIX 29 (very sensitive to antenna position), WCET 34 (sometimes)
WSTR-DT blinks the DTV light but doesn't come in.
I think WXIX has issues with WRGT-DT on 30 nearby, it's almost like I have to put 30 in a null to get 29.

Columbus: WBNS 21.
WCMH on 14 blinks the DTV light but I haven't pulled it in yet.
Not a peep of WTTE 36, WOSU 38, or WWHO 46 so far.

Haven't tried my VHF/FM antenna yet to see if I can get WCPO-DT on 10 or WSYX-DT on 13.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
I think WXIX has issues with WRGT-DT on 30 nearby, it's almost like I have to put 30 in a null to get 29.


That would make sense for your location -- While adjacent channel operation on DTV seems to work very well, there is still only so much your receiver can do selectivity wise when you've got a strong signal right next door to a weak signal, and the stations are in somewhat similiar directions and your antenna may not be rejecting signal from WRGT-DT enough "off the side" - another reason to use directional antenna(s) and rotors and such .... My understanding is, adjacent channel operation of DTV stations does work better when adjacent channel stations are co-located ....

Also, according to info on FCC site, WRGT-DT's directional antenna pattern would send quite a bit in your direction - here's the polar plot for their antenna pattern :

http://www.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/polarplot?temp=64344&rotate=&p0=.987&p10=****&p20=.987&p30=.950&p40=.896&p50=.833&p60=.771&p70=.714&p80=.663&p90=.614&p100=.560&p110=.496&p120=.420&p130=.338&p140=.267&p150=.237&p160=.264&p170=.317&p180=.362&p190=.379&p200=.362&p210=.317&p220=.263&p230=.236&p240=.267&p250=.338&p260=.420&p270=.495&p280=.559&p290=.613&p300=.662&p310=.713&p320=.770&p330=.833&p340=.895&p350=.950

Good point. It really won't matter if indeed WRGT does go to widescreen soon, or to HD in the fall. My main intent in getting WXIX is for Fox Widescreen and a source for HD football later on.

As for my other antenna, I'll get that one set up aimed at Columbus and watch WBNS for CBS HD sports coverage.

I haven't been able to get WWHO yet for UPN/WB but I think I wasn't pointing the right way for it since they actually transmit from Williamsport instead of Columbus.

Originally posted by blabes12
The Time Warner Cable tech showed up last night and installed a Pioneer Voyager 3510HD set-top-box for me.

I noticed the specs for this box are:

MPEG-2 Video Decompression MP@ML (ISO/IEC 13818-2) Variable bit-rate 1.5 to 15Mbps, with various levels of resolution: 704 X 480, 352 X 480 and 544 X 480, MP@HL.

There is no support for 1080i listed. However, the Voyager 4000 HD-DVR and the Scientific Atlanta Explorer® 8000HD (which is the PVR that TW will offer it's customers) both support 1080i.

What resolution does TW broadcast it's HD in? Please forgive me if that's a silly question because all of this is new to me.

1450Khz,

For me, WWHO is 35 - 40 deg CW (South) of my Peak WBNS reading from here in Huber acto to my rotor dial.

Greg

Thanks, AntennaWeb seems to indicate about a 30 degree spread. So far I haven't had any luck getting WWHO though. I may have terrain in the way. I could see the analog signal on 53 but it was pretty weak.

Originally posted by MarcJ
There is no support for 1080i listed. However, the Voyager 4000 HD-DVR and the Scientific Atlanta Explorer® 8000HD (which is the PVR that TW will offer it's customers) both support 1080i.

Well, I also have the Pioneer Voyager 3510HD box, and in the onboard settings you can choose 1080i as an output option. FYI.

HangEmHi,

Have you noticed a sound delay when changing channels
within the last couple weeks?

At first I just thought it was me, but yesterday the wife
asked " Whats wrong with the sound"

I have my box set to display the time
When I change channel it shows the channel # , the Channel changes on the tv but the sound is delayed till the display shows the time again?

Ps woke up at 4:00am a week or so ago and noticed the STB rebooting itself and reloading, I suspect TWC has the capability to do this remotely
and this was about the same time I noticed the sound delay.

I'm wondering if my STB is going bad or has been reprogrammed differently.

I was using the DVI output but have noticed that it takes longer to lock onto the channel (couple secs blue screen) than the composite outputs and as of late I had to revert to composite output.
The DVI output will drop to 480p and the only way to get it back to 1080i is to reboot the STB. It stays at 1080i till I turn the tv on the next day


Maybe I will just exchange it and see if it's the box




Mad

1450khz,

Peak your Ch 53 analog signal and that should be the best for WWHO-DT

Greg

Those of us getting HD through TWC were supposed to lose CBS WHIO on March 3. It's now the 10th and it's still there.

Maybe this means they finalized a deal and it will be permanent!

Come football season, I'll be watching my CBS HD NFL games on WBNS. :D

The heck with WHIO and their rampant macroblocking and poor sound quality.

The sound is not just poor on WHIO-DT, during CBS HD there is NO sound tonight on 41-1(except during local/syndicated programming+ad breaks), or this afternoon during HD Y&R .... Audio is fine for CBS HD from WKRC-DT Cincinnati ...

Newsroom # at WHIO is 937-259-2237 (Ask them to send your message to control room) ...

Main Switchboard # is (M-F - 9AM-5PM) - 937-259-2111

I noticed the lack of sound. Also appears that WDTN missed HD for Kingdom Hospital tonight.

I tried my VHF/FM type antenna tonight but could not pull in WCPO.

Vader, I was going to mention the same thing about WHIO-DT lingering on Time Warner but I was afraid to jinx it! If it goes dark tonight I'm blaming you. :-)

BTW, weird thing happened last night: channels above 100 or so had sound but no picture. I power-cycled the STB and things went back to normal. I this just something I need to get used to, or should I ask for a new box?

Originally posted by blabes12
BTW, weird thing happened last night: channels above 100 or so had sound but no picture. I power-cycled the STB and things went back to normal. I this just something I need to get used to, or should I ask for a new box?

Oddly enough, I've had the reverse situation with picture but no sound, but rebooting the box always fixes the problem.

so still no audio on 41-1 tonight for CSI, i used the number nitewatchman posted to call and report the error. The lady who answered the phone said "thats strange your the first person to complain about that" she patched me through to the tech, but he was out and I got his voice mail. I just wish we could have a dependable system that worked at least say 75% of the time. It seems like we are a lot further away from HD across the board than a few years, just my thoughts.

Thanks for calling them jbh613 ...

When they realize there are a good number of people watching, they'll pay more attention to their digital station -- The problem with the "system" is, the stations don't pay as much attention to the DT station as they do the analog --- which is understandable, for various reasons, such as : 1.) the analog is the cash cow, 2.) Stations are having to run 2 stations instead of one because the Gov't told them to, 3.)Even if you tried, hard for the tech on duty to monitor the audio on both the analog and the DT at the same time because of the (usually) approx 1/2 second delay/etc (Thier job involves a lot of other multitasking too of course) ...

I've called them 5 or 6 times concerning missing HD in the past+got through to tech who pleasantly said "thank you" and switched the feed, and I know others have called them in the past too, but we all need to "bug them" every now and then when problems occur so they know we are out here ....

Bottom line is, these stations really need to know we are out here watching, and they often don't pay a lot of attention to emails ... On the analog, they are used to the switchboard lighting up when there is a problem, so, unless a good number of us bug them when there are problems, they figure no one is watching ... I know, it's a PITA, as they should realize we can just switch the channel+ some of us can get CSI in HD from WKRC-DT, WBNS-DT or some of us will have to use SD and analog 7/etc, and they should realize we are more into watching the content than pestering the stations, but if we bug them enough, sooner or later they'll get the message (and months may go by, and then we will have to bug them again) ...

I did send a email to the 7online address last night, asking them to forward it to engineering, but obviously (as usual) it didn't do any good ... Was going to call the switchboard today to see if I could get through to engineering, but got caught up in doing something else and forgot about it ...

On the audio problem they are having, hopefully it won't take them too long to get it fixed, it might not be something a board-op can "fix" ...

Just did a quick check after lunch --- At 1:05pm, HD is fine for Y&R on WHIO-DT 41-1, Audio is fine too ... So, it seems to be fixed, at least for now ...

Just to confirm, no sound on WHIO-DT last night via Time Warner, either. Guess it's my turn to call next time.

jeff, my 41-1 was working all day yesterday through Survivor, then when they switched to Csi, nothing, so I think the problem only shows up when the feed a true HD signal. I might be wrong, but just a thought.

jbh613,

Yes, that is correct. That is why I checked it today during the CBS HD feed during "Young and the Restless"(and it was fine today) -- Which is sent in true, 16x9 HD daily by CBS ... Y&R is shot, produced and broadcast in HD by CBS(and WHIO-DT, they rarely miss HD for Y&R when I've checked it), has been since Fall 2001 ...

Wed+thursday, Audio was fine from 41-1 during local ad inserts even when CBS HD feed was being broadcast, audio was also fine during local/syndicated programming and when they were using the standard SD feed from CBS ... audio was fine on 41-2 throughout as well .... Audio was missing only when WHIO-DT was sending CBS HD feed ...

update: also --- CBS does upconvert the SD shows at the network level to 1080i(still 4x3 with black sidebars) +sends those out on the CBS HD feed as well -- Sometimes WHIO-DT uses the HD feed with CBS SD programming(in which case audio would have missing on wed/thur), and sometimes they use the "standard" CBS SD feed(such as last night for survivor and letterman later).

Of course, If I wouldn't have been able to check WKRC-DT (CBS cincinnati) and see(or hear ;-) that audio was fine on WKRC-DT during all the CBS HD on WED+Thurs(as noted in an earlier post, first noticed the problem wed afternoon on WHIO-DT during HD Y&R), I would have had no way of knowing if the problem was occuring at CBS or WHIO-DT -- Although I'm sure if it was a network problem, a thread would have popped up in AVSforum programming area about it ....

Hey guys- I have some more annoying newbie questions...

1) Using my antenna (no amps) I can get dayton cbs 7 (41) at a reception of low 70's, but the combinations that I have looked at knocks dayton 22 (51) down to low 60's. The converse of that is also true but (51) comes in at low 80's and (41) comes in at low 60's. My question is- according to antenna web these towers are very near each other (18.3-19 mi away from me) - is this an elevation issue or all a by product of my directional antenna.

FYI- as i was messing with The senor in the attic I was pulling in wsyx at low 70's (the same as channel 2!?) Also, almost always- wb26 upper 70's, abc2 lower 70's, fox upper 60's/lower 70's, pbs upper 60's.

2) What if any, is the bench mark for OTA signals in terms avoiding drop outs and getting good picture quality- What should be my goal for solid hd viewing?

3) I ready on another thread that some are linking 2 silver sensors together - can this work? (my goal would be to try to pull in some additional columbus stations while keeping all of my daytons). If so, would I just connect a splitter with the idea being the outputs are the "ins" and the inputs are the "out?"

4) Any other suggestions?

Thanks again for your help- Have a good day.

Tom

Tom,

#1). What do you mean by the different "combinations" that you have looked at?

Anyhow, Hard to say what the exact issue is. Shouldn't have anything to do with the directivity of your antenna. Hard to say, but I doubt it is a elevation/terrain issue, all the Dayton DTV transmitting antennas are up quite high. Also, as you mentioned All the Dayton stations are on towers so close together(except analogs WWRD-LP 55, and TBN translator W47BC springfield) One heading with a directional antenna should work for all of them.

Now --- If you have your antenna indoors - everything nearby your antenna is "connected" to the antenna in strange ways, having antenna indoors also greatly attenuates amount of signal you can get from any station as compared to an outdoor installation ---- Another problem could be significant nearby multipath issues(nearby water towers/etc), because of those issues aiming the antenna a little differently might produce different results for different stations, even if they were broadcasting off the same antenna with roughly equivelent power levels. Multipath conditions might change enough to be a factor say, if wind is blowing the limbs on trees around or, difference between leaves being on trees or off, or signal conditions will be different if you put some new boxes in your attic, or if your roof is full of snow/etc/etc. Multipath+other issues are often very frequency specific, and may effect, say channel 41 more than Channel 50 or 51.

#2). 15.3db of signal over noise is the theoretical threshold for Good DTV reception. To the DTV receiver, everything except the ATSC signal is noise. Also The equalizers in our receivers "ferret out"(as much as possible) portions of signals arriving via multipath, and whatever isn't used is just "noise" as well. The meters on our receivers of course don't tell us much of anything about this, and there are some exceptions, but most receivers meters don't indicate "signal strength", they indicate "signal quality" --- Basically, how easy it is for the receiver to decode the datastream - This may have nothing to do with the actual signal strength.

With the meters on receivers I have seen, they CAN show high readings(say 70~100) with a fairly weak signal, just a few Db over the threshold needed for good DTV reception(say 70~100), or high readings(say 70~100) with actually very strong signals. Also, you can't compare the numbers between different receivers, as they all use a different scale. On DTC-100 here, for example, it will lock at 28~29, and in most cases you can get "almost" perfect reception at 33~34(maybe a few dropouts every now and then), and anything at a steady 40 or above generally means perfect reception. Other factors, such as intermod from Preamp overload, multipath issues/co-channel interference issues/etc/etc/ can make it so I'd need say a steady "80" on the meter to not get any dropouts.

So in other words, don't worry too much about what the meter says - If you can get higher and steadier readings, fine, but if you're getting perfect reception and the meter says "40"(or whatever) that's fine too. If you aren't getting any dropouts or screen data loss/etc. from the locals, then you are getting good reception. FWIW, I'm 12~13 miles from the Dayton Towers, 27~39 miles from the Cincinnati/N KY towers. I'm using directional antennas(on seperate feedlines with a/b switch near receiver to switch between Dayton/Cincy antenna - I also have rotor on the Cincy antenna so I can aim it anywhere I want) mounted outdoors on a tower, 30~38 FT above ground. One heading for Cincinnati Stations, one heading for dayton stations works just fine. Other than 2 or 3 dropouts on WCPO-DT 10 Cincinnati due to a couple of very nearby lightning strikes a couple summers ago, and a dropout to WXIX-DT once due to Co-channel interference from WKSO 29 Somerset, KY via a bit of enhanced signal propagation(Tropo DX)last summer, I don't get ANY dropouts from the 13 Cincy/Dayton DTV stations which I receive perfectly (I sometimes get them, but I have problems with WKOI-DT 39(TBN - Tower near Oxford, Ohio, due to terrian issues in their direction, their directional antenna pattern+low power/etc)....

#3). Yes, you can hook two antennas that are exactly identical together(such as 2 silver sensors) to increase directivity(and gain slightly) and ability for antenna to reject signal coming in from off-axis. We call this "stacking" antennas. Stacking is most beneficial over a very narrow range of frequenices(less than a single TV channel fits in), but many have had good results for UHF TV/DTV by stacking antennas. Proper spacing is Critical(36~39" would probably be good for UHF, but you might want to experiment a little and see how others have done it), and the antennas must be in phase ... The 2 antennas must be mounted next to each other at exact same height/etc,, and both antennas must be aimed in the same direction, and you must use exactly equal amounts of coax between the "splitter used backwards" and each antenna. A splitter(You can also call it a Hybrid Coupler/combiner) does not care which way you use it. The combiner/splitter of course causes insertion loss, and because of this, you end up losing much of the add'l gain you get by stacking the antennas together.

There is an excellent article on stacking antennas at the following link which I would recommend you check out:

http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/stackant.html

#4). If at all possible, use a directional outdoor antenna installation(mounted free of nearby obstructions -- as high as is reasonably possible is a good general rule - at least 4' above the roof) for best results -- You might be able to get great reception from indoors(many do, and I'm not saying you won't be able to), but it might take a lot of experimentation+looking for a "sweet spot" to put your antenna in.

Since Cincinnati/Dayton/Columbus stations are probably within range for you, a directional antenna+rotor would be best -- but you can also use seperate antennas(aimed in different directions) on Seperate Feedlines with say a A/B switch near the receiver to switch between, say the Dayton and Cincinnati antennas. WSYX-DT is on VHF 13(210-216MHZ), WCPO-DT 10 Cincinnati is on VHF channel 10. When analog shutoff occurs, we'll likely have more area DTV stations on VHF, all the others currently are on UHF. But you might want to use either a VHF/UHF combo antenna, or combine seperate VHF/UHF antennas. Silver sensor is a UHF(470~866MHZ) antenna, it doesn't work so great on VHF -- But since you're getting WSYX-DT with it, as you can see, DTV reception can often work very well. WDTN-DT is on UHF channel 50(your receiver+info WDTN-DT sends along with the signal just remaps it to 2.~1~2, so it will show up next to analog WDTN 2).

There is loads of great info on antennas+reception at the below link(The title of many of the sections such as "attic antenna, Why not?" have a lot more info in them than you can tell by their title), some of the issues I've mentioned above(and much more) are explained much better here+in more detail:

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Hope this helps, Let us know how it goes.

Jeff,

Thanks so much. Looks like I have a little reading to do. ;) I had no idea all the little quarks associated with OTA's. Thank God that I have this board as a resource or I'd be up - well that certian kind of creek without a paddle! lol

Later,
Tom

p.s. by combintions I meant certain rigging devices in my attic- I jury rigged some interesting mounting positions!:rolleyes:

:) LOL! Sounds like The Kama Sutra for antennas ;)

But seriously, probably wouldn't work too well with Silver sensor, but Bungee Cords would work great for mounting "conventional" VHF/UHF combos or UHF Yagi+corner reflectors in attic/etc ...

I'm working on trying to snag WSYX or WCPO DT stations, but have yet to have any luck. My VHF/FM antenna is rather ungainly and hard to maneuver in the attic space that I have. I haven't tried using my paired CM4221's to get them on the off chance that I might have enough gain to snag those stations since they are high VHF.

Speaking of the above, I constructed a mount to combine my two CM4221 antennas for some more gain. Why not just use the 4228? Because it wouldn't fit up the hatch into my attic! :p Now getting more reliable reception on WCET and WXIX digitals....WLWT and WKRC were rock solid from the beginning.

I still haven't had much luck with Columbus except WBNS 21 which locks in easily. I have blinking DTV light but no lock on WCMH on 14, and WSYX on 13. Not a peep off WOSU (38), WTTE(36, I hear it's at flea power), or WWHO (46). I think I have a terrain issue with 46 as I've tried aiming based on the analog at 53 and it's pretty weak.
Still though, I don't mind as long as I get WBNS so I can see non-bit-starved CBS sports.

1450khz,

What sort of VHF/FM antenna are you using? Is it designed for broadband VHF -- VHF-Lo TV(2-6 - 54-88 MHZ) FM(88-108 MHZ) VHF Hi-band TV (7-13 - 174~216 MHZ)? A FM, or lo-VHF TV antenna isn't going to work very well for TV channels 7-13.

There are some nice Ch 7-13 VHF antennas which aren't as big as FM or broadband VHF antennas - Still though, you'd likely need to be able to aim it properly, and you might need to get it outside, too which is usually a good idea anyway ...

Also, Attics can be a really nasty source of interference problems(electrical noise) on VHF, but Lo-VHF especially .. how does the VHF antenna do with VHF analogs 5,9, 12 Cincy, 2,7 Dayton and 4,6,10 Columbus for instance? Much noise/interference?

Anyhow --- Terrain shielding is likely hurting you to some extent for Columbus from your location, but even though it's in a different spot, terrain profile from your location to WWHO tower looks almost exactly the same as it does to WBNS, WSYX and WCMH towers, which are all pretty close together just South of Downtown Columbus, WWHO Tower is in Williamsport, about 8~10 miles West of Circleville and ~30 miles S of Columbus, but a few miles(47 miles) closer to you than the other Columbus TV towers(~52 miles), Except for WOSU, which is about 62 miles NE of you, and on the North side of Columbus.

Of course also, WWHO-DT 46 is on a much higher frequency than WBNS which would make terrain issues worse, it also makes the attenation from having antenna indoors worse. I also suppose it is somewhat possible WPTO 14 Oxford might be noising it up a little off the backside for WCMH-DT, although, with WPTO 18 miles away from my location and putting a good signal into here, I've been surprised how often I've seen WCMH-DT with just a little tropo from Columbus(given proper antenna aiming of course).

I know you said you can't do it, but getting the antenna outdoors would likely help greatly I would think. Tests which have been done indicate that at best, you're going to add 15-20db of attenuation by having antenna indoors -- That's a lot when you consider for good DTV reception, you only need around 15~20db of signal over noise .... If it's outdoors aiming into a tall wall 5 feet away it probably won't help, but if the wall isn't that high and is 20~30 feet away, outdoors is still probably going to be better ....

Here, WSYX-DT seems to have the best signal of the Columbus DT's, I see some sort of indication of signal from it all the time from 78 miles, and just takes a slight bit of "above dead band" conditions to get a lock and good reception from WSYX-DT, takes just a little more than that for me to get WBNS-DT(WKEF next door doesn't help though), and WCMH-DT/WOSU-DT a little more than that with co-channel issues from WPTO 14 off the back, and WOTH-LP 38 Cincy off the "side" ...

Likely mostly Because of extremely difficult nearby terrain in that direction here, getting a lock on WWHO(69 miles) takes quite a bit more than for WCMH/WOSU-DT, and I see WTTE-DT 36 least often of the Columbus digitals, even though I see "something" popping up above snow from their analog on 28 just about all the time, and it doesn't take much improvement in conditions for it to be 1/2 way watchable with some snow ... WOSU 34 is about the same, when WCET-DT is off air ...

I beleive WTTE-DT is at low power, I imagine things will improve once they power up. Also, often when I am getting good enough signals via tropo to get them, WTVQ 36 Lexington is just blasting in here which doesn't help either ...

I have noticed for some reason, it seems like I do have to see WWHO 53 with quite decent quality(just a little snow) before I've got a chance at WWHO-DT(running at 1MW), wheras usually with high powered DT's, their analogs, if on fairly nearby frequencies can be pretty nasty looking+I can still get the DT's. Maybe WRGT is having a bit of an effect as well, who knows, but 46 usually seems pretty clean in their direction, a lot cleaner than 21 is, even though I still get WBNS-DT with just a bit of enhanced conditions. I did check WWHO-DT's antenna pattern, and I don't see any problems there in my, or your direction. Their DT antenna isn't too far down the tower from the analog antenna either.

Of course, since I'm beyond Curvature of Earth, only station I see from Columbus 24/7 365 (quite watchable most of the time) is WCMH 4, due to the increased coverage area/better "fringe and beyond fringe area signal propagation of VHF-LO. WSYX 6 used to do better, before they moved to the antenna that doesn't favor the west. WDPR moving to 88.1 didn't help me there either, though I'm glad they aren't so strong here they bother WRTV 6 indy for me, which I don't see all the time, but quite often. Used to see WBNS 10 pretty much all the time too, and it is still there, but WCPO-DT usually noises it up to much to be usuable. Hopefully, many stations in our area with LO-VHF analog allocations will move their digitals to VHF too, so I can get WAVE 3(95 miles from a tall stick) Lousiville+WCMH 4 Columbus all the time after analog shut-off as I do now ....

Certianly, Impulse noise can be a pain, E-skip can even get in the way if your lo-vhf's aren't strong signals, but I hope stations don't forget about their "extreme" fringe area viewers, some in terrain challenged areas who can't get any TV except on lo-VHF .... VHF/Low VHF especially really does "bend better" around hills and such, and is generally easier to receive with simple indoor antennas such as "Rabbit ears" .... I'm being completely selfish of course, but I certianly wouldn't mind if WDTN/WLWT DT's stay on UHF though, I'd love to have 2+5 as clean channels for Es+tropo DX ...

Ok, I'm blabbering on, sorry ...

Dude keep "blabbering." im still pretty clueless, but I spend about 15 minutes a day here and am starting to catch a thing or two.

Still have yet to try anything new with mine.

Someone mentioned either dayton or cincy broadcasting several different feeds of the NCAA's- is ther a possibility that this may happen again?

Also, Re-reading my last post did make me want to take a shower! lol
Time to step away from the project!

later

Someone mentioned either dayton or cincy broadcasting several different feeds of the NCAA's- is ther a possibility that this may happen again?

Bumping this to the top for more info....

I haven't heard of any multicast from Dayton or Cincy. WBNS-DT Columbus website says that they will carry all the feeds on Thursday on 10-1,2,3,4.

There's always the possibility. It's allowed and the 100% simulcast rule isn't in effect, yet. Last year, WKRC-DT carried the HD game regardless of the game showing on WKRC-12. But, the chief engineer was making the call and he now works for WCPO. The new guy's name is Jim Gilbert, should you wish to call. I'm sure he'll tell you. I haven't had the time to make contact, myself.

Doc

I know this may be a little bit of apples and oranges, but if i can pick up a good digital feed from wsyx could i assume that if i went to my attic and messed around with my antenna that I could get a similar signal from wbns. I mention this because several here seem to know about the location of towers, the power of transmissions, and such. I may try to email some area cbs locals today and see if i get a response (teacher- snow day- if your wondering!).

The only Columbus station I can receive all the time is WSYX. I seem to recall that they're at higher power than the others, but I could be wrong. If your wondering??? You say YOU'RE a teacher??? :)

I didnt say English.......... lol

WSYX is at 59 kW on 13. So, lower power but it's VHF instead of UHF. I can't get them, but that's because I don't have a good VHF antenna. (I tried hooking up an FM antenna I had, but it doesn't seem to work too well.)

WBNS-DT is running either 700kW (STA) or a full 1 MW on ch. 21.
WCMH-DT is most likely at a 288kW STA (CP for 902 kW) on ch. 14.
WOSU-DT says 250 kW (CP Mod) on 38.
WTTE-DT is at flea power. They have two STA's, 2.4kW, 11.2kW. CP for 1 MW.

I get WBNS but WCMH doesn't quite lock on. Looking at their pattern, I think I'm in a null.

I'm confused- The silver sensor is a uhf antenna correct? How am I picking up wsyx if its vhf? Is their digital uhf and thats why?

You can't compare power directly between VHF+UHF stations. It takes much less power to cover the same area with VHF than is the case with UHF. Also, the longer wavelengths of VHF propagate a little better/easier over terrain, and even the limit of curvature of Earth. I'll get back to this in a little more detail a bit later.

If I recall correctly, I beleive WBNS-DT is at 1MW. They are shown as licensed for 1MW on FCC site, their last STA (granted for 6 months) expired near end of 2002 according to FCC site.

Looks like 1450khz is at about a 256 degree bearing from WCMH-DT --- According to their pattern, that would equate to about a .723 relative field value in your direction ... Not sure, but I think they are using the 288KW ERP STA(you'd get 288 KW erp sent your way if the relative field value was 1.000 in your direction) To calucate ERP sent in 1450khz direction from that ... (.723x.723) x 288,000 watts = 150.5 KW being sent in his direction... So, a bit of a Null, but they don't really have any big nulls, as the pattern isn't all that directional.

On WTTE-DT, I'm guessing(just guessing) they are at 11.2KW ERP STA now. There has been at least one other STA(for 4KW), and maybe another that used to pop up on FCC site for them, but I'm only seeing the 2 1450khz mentioned now. Last summer, I sent them a reception report when I pulled them in via tropo, which was shortly after they moved to antenna on top of the tower from a temporary antenna(the 2.4KW ERP STA) which was barely off the ground, and only a few feet higher Above sea level wise than MY antenna. This is a portion of the reply from one of their engineer's:

"We are making a little more than 4kw now,
it is 8.4 kw now that we've moved to the good transmit antenna. "

Dan Carpenter

:end quote

As you say WSYX is on VHF at 59KW ERP, which is quite High Powered for DTV on VHF channel 13 - It's the max FCC will let them do presently. 13.7KW ERP is what WCPO-DT is running, that's not low power for VHF either, and generally seems to cover their service area quite well -- It is the Max they'll let WCPO-DT do, my guess is, Co-channel issue with WBNS 10 are probably the biggest reason why they aren't allowed to do more, presently. The absolute Max allowed for DTV on 7-13 is something like 160KW ERP, we won't see much of that until the analogs are shut off, but I think there are a couple of DTV stations in U.S. (out of a little less than a couple hundred with current VHF DTV allocations) which have 160KW ERP CP's.

The Max allowed on UHF for DTV is 1,000KW ERP. Not all stations are allowed to do that much though --because of co-channel/adjacent channel interference issues/etc, and many are running STA's at various power levels to save on utility bills for as long as FCC will let them .. High power UHF transmitters can use over 6 figures in utility bills per year - I don't recall the exact number for Max DTV power allowed for Lo-VHF(2-6), but I think it is something like 50KW, although, no current lo-VHF station I know of is doing more than 7.5KW ERP currently, and there are only a couple low-VHF DTV stations with full power allocations over 10KW ERP ...Again, likely because of Co-channel interference issues with analog stations. The highest power DTV CP in U.S. currrently is 36.4 KW ERP, a station in Lexington, KY(which is actually running a very directional antenna at 7.5KW ERP STA presently).

The DTV max power limits roughly equates(actually, relatively speaking it's "more" power allowed for DTV Maximums than analog - more on this below) to the maximum allowed for analogs -- Which is, 100KW ERP on Low-VHF(there are more "detailed" max power limits depending upon antenna height with low-VHF), 316KW ERP for Vhf-HI(7-13), and 5,000KW ERP for UHF.

Also, DTV ERP is different than NTSC ERP -- NTSC ERP power is expressed in "peak" terms, DTV is average. Also, with DTV ... ~12db less signal is needed to get "good DTV reception" than is the case for a so-called "grade B" analog signal - It was defined by FCC as a 12db difference anyway, and the original Table of allocations for DTV were based on that difference ... They modified that later though, and "upped the power" on the CP's, although, the 12db is pretty accurate -- but of course, getting inside buildings and over terrain with signals rather than to antennas with 10db gain on 30feet antennas outdoors is a little different story ..

I do know I've been very impressed at how well "LP" DTV does. For example - At first, WCET-DT was running a 7KW ERP STA. One of their engineers posted that at that time on the Cincy thread that they were using a 250 Watt Solid State Amp, and add in the antenna gain, and you get 7KW ERP. They moved to their "real" transmitter and a 215KW ERP STA last spring. From 32 miles distant and with some terrain issue involved I had absolutely no problems receiving them at the 7KW ERP, in fact, except for slightly higher signal quality readings, I couldn't tell any difference when they increased power.

OF course, indoor antennas and more severe terrain issues where LP DTV is concerned would likely be a different story -- But still ... In field tests/etc that have been performed that I have seen, getting the transmitting antenna up nice and high often seems to be more important for DTV than running high power levels, since we don't have to look at "snow" ...

Although, again, certianly, Higher power is going to do better when terrain issues(especially fringe areas), and getting into buildings are concerned ...

Where VHF is concerned however ... the longer wavelengths involved can also get around terrain issues(even a little farther beyond curvature of Earth) much moreso than UHF, and of course it takes much less power on VHF to cover the same area as is the case on UHF ... This isn't the best, or most technically accurate explanation, but in the interests of trying to keep this somewhat short: One of the simple reasons for this is, because VHF wavelentghs are longer, The Receiving antenna has to be "bigger" to be resonant and work well on VHF frequencies, so it is easier for more of the signal to "fall on" the antenna. The "bigger" the antenna, the more energy can "fall" on it ....

Originally posted by jenkinswoody
I'm confused- The silver sensor is a uhf antenna correct? How am I picking up wsyx if its vhf? Is their digital uhf and thats why?

WSYX-DT transmits on VHF 13. Last I saw them, they remapped to 6-1. The DT at the end of the callsign means it's a digital station. Analog WSYX transmits on VHF 6. Any coathanger can pick up a signal if there is enough there ... In other words, if you're lucky(or close to the towers) in some cases you can receive VHF on UHF antennas. You can't allways say 2+2=4 with this stuff(especially when you are comparing VHF+UHF stations), but since WBNS/WSYX/WCMH are on towers that are very near each other, and from nice high transmitting heights, and WBNS-DT/WSYX-DT are running non-directional antennas(omni), If you're getting WSYX-DT on a UHF silver sensor, seems reasonable to expect you'd have a good shot at WBNS-DT 21(remaps to 10-x) and maybe even some of the other Columbus UHF stations as well.

But a UHF silver sensor antenna isn't going to have much gain(probably none, or less when compared to a reference dipole "cut" for channel 13 - rabbit ears adjusted to 1/2 wavelenth for 210MHZ would be a example of a reference dipole with no appreciable gain), or work anywhere near as well on VHF as a real VHF antenna would ...even rabbit ears ... VHF signals do tend to propagate easier than UHF(as explained above -- even with much less power than on UHF), and are generally more easily received on simple, indoor antennas, and many people have had sucess receiving VHF Hi band(ch 7-13) signals with antennas such as Silver Sensor and UHF bowties.

Sorry for the Triple posts ....

Originally posted by 1450kHz
I tried hooking up an FM antenna I had, but it doesn't seem to work too well.


If you don't need the Lo-VHF's, Here's a couple of hi-band VHF(ch 7-13 antennas which might work for you(or many others in our area), and would be smaller than most multi-element FM or broadband VHF antennas(especially where element length is concerned) :

Winegaurd Prostar YA-6713 (6 Element - Boom length: 50" - Maximum Width - 35" ), or Prostar YA-1713(10 element- better - Boom length 100", Maximum Width: 35" ) More details here near bottom of page, including detailed specs if you click on the model you want to see info on :

http://www.winegard.com/offair/prostar1000vhffmyagi.htm#5030

Also, If I recall Correctly, on their line card info, Wintronic carries both Blonder-Tongue and maybe antenna craft lines --- Haven't heard anyone using one of these, but there is a ch 7-13 Antennacraft (120" boom) antenna at Stark for around $35 (3 antenna pics from bottom) ...

http://www.starkelectronic.com/acantena.htm#Y10

Blonder-Tongue makes a the BTY-LP-HB for Hi-VHF ch 7-13(104"x34") ... I'm sure its a fine antenna, but they build their stuff like "tanks" for professional use(doesn't make them have more gain) and it's something over $200. Blonder tongue's antenna catalog here(requires acrobat reader):

http://www.blondertongue.com/media/pdfs/catalog_classes/offAirAntennas.pdf

--------------

The low VHF channels 2-6 and FM are why we need the really long elements -- about 8'~ long on broadband VHF antennas(or why rabbit ears can(or should anyway) extend to be so long) --- Personally, I use a broadband antenna that covers VHF 2-6/FM+7-13, For DTV/Analogs AND FM, but Right now, just for VHF DTV in SW/Central Ohio area, all we need is antenna for hi-VHF (WCPO-DT 10, WSYX-DT 13 -- And for anyone up "way up" North, WLIO-DT 8 Lima)...

Of course, it's too early to say, but many stations with VHF lo band analog allocations currently seem to be planning on using their current UHF DTV allocations after analog shut off because of noise/interference problems on lo-VHF - They might change their minds though ... I keep forgetting to ask WLWT, but I or others I know have talked to folks at just about all the other VHF-lo stations within 100 miles+ of Dayton, and they all, currently seem to be planning on not using VHF-LO for their DTV after analog shut off, although they also say they haven't made the "de-facto" decision yet, and I'd think they won't until FCC requires them to for Channel Election Deadline(I think FCC is going to be setting Channel election Deadline in their upcoming MO&O for the 2nd DTV review they are doing, which is currently ongoing - The NPRM was issued over a year ago, and the first review took around, or a little over a year).

I would expect however, that other stations will use empty allocations on 2-6, unless FCC decides to remove it from the TV bands after analog shut off, which I personally doubt, but you never know I suppose ...

Jeff,

Thanks again for the insight.

Tom

Not that I like Multi casting but I was hoping to get 4 feeds from WHIO, I spoke with Chuck Eastman and he confirmed no Multicast for the NCAA @ WHIO. I know about WBNS in C-Bus but any word on WRKC.

WKRC-DT did the multicast up until CBS started offering the tournament in HD. Since then, they have done the HD game on 31 and whatever's regularly scheduled on 12. I would imagine they'll stay that way since they don't run a flexicoder and changing the configuration requires shutting the thing down. Not a good idea with Webhopper clients.

But I'm speculating. I haven't had time to contact WKRC to see.

However, if things work out as they did last year, WHIO and WKRC didn't always carry the same game on analog. Add in the HD game on DT and you have access to three games. Some of the time, anyway <g>.

Doc

Thanks for the WHIO update. Too bad.....

Got a message into WKRC. I'll let you know if I hear anything.

Doc

As an FYI for those of you who receive the Cincinnati stations, in additon to the Cincinnati Thread on AVS ( Here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=306883 ), There is also now a Cincinnati HDTV website + Forum, Here:

http://www.cincinnatihdtv.com/

*THUNK*

That sound you heard was the cable bill going up.

In the Time Warner bill I got today, they include a notice that effective April 19, 2004, they will introduce a High Definition tier, which will include INHD, INHD2, HDNet, and HDMovies, for the low, low price of $7.95 per month.

I would expect this means that ESPN-HD will be headed to this tier as well.

FYI+FWIW, I sent a note to Roland Martel, CE at WKEF/WRGT yesterday asking for an update on Fox Widescreen from WRGT-DT+ automated switching for both WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT which he had told us about in Feb. I also mentioned the crease to left of Fox bug as well as the non-reception related dropouts during NBC HD on 51-1. --- If I hear anything back, I'll post or hopefully Roland can post an update here.

I did notice NBC HD was missing tonight from WKEF-DT for "ER" and "Tonight Show", it was fine on WLWT-DT Cincinnati. Except for a couple of shows missing HD(Such as American Dreams 2 weeks ago - it fine last sunday)They've done such a great job providing NBC HD as of late, unless they are working on things hopefully the missing HD tonight was just an exception, considering other recent "developments" ....

Originally posted by HangEmHi
*THUNK*

That sound you heard was the cable bill going up.

In the Time Warner bill I got today, they include a notice that effective April 19, 2004, they will introduce a High Definition tier, which will include INHD, INHD2, HDNet, and HDMovies, for the low, low price of $7.95 per month.

I would expect this means that ESPN-HD will be headed to this tier as well.

I'm hoping that they roll out the HD-DVR at this time too, so that way the price increase will be a wash after i get rid of my current HD box and SD DVR... Might be time to get rid of all those digital stations in the 100's that i never watch too...

Originally posted by HangEmHi
I would expect this means that ESPN-HD will be headed to this tier as well. ESPN-HD is most likely the reason for the tier since its per-subscriber fee is much higher than the others. I think that's the reason TW's lagged in adding ESPN-HD.. they didn't want to pay the upcharge. FWIW, the charge - plus box rental - puts TW on a par with Insight and DirecTV.

Doc

Any idea if they are adding indemandHD? I wonder if you can subscribe to the movie HD channels only and not have to pay for every one. And finally if they are going to have an HD tier will they add Cinemax HD, StarzHD, and any others not mentioned?

If they're like most systems, the premium HD movie channels (HBO, Starz, etc) will come with subscriptions to those services at no additional charge. The HD tier will be populated by the other HD channels such as InHD, HDNet, DiscoveryHD, ESPN-HD, etc.

HD PPV will most likely be independant of any tier, just like regular PPV.

Doc

I thought WHIO was going to show the HD games on 41-1 and regular scheduled. games for this area on 41-2 & analog 7,..... but that would make to much sense.

Originally posted by parrot1
I thought WHIO was going to show the HD games on 41-1 and regular scheduled. games for this area on 41-2 & analog 7,..... but that would make to much sense. Did anybody call them? Can tell you how many times a simple phone call has gotten a switch thrown. You should call.

Doc

I enjoyed having all the feeds available from WBNS last night.

My understanding at this point for tonight is that they (WBNS) are going to dump out of multicast when the HD game from Kansas City starts, and show that game on their digital....but I'm not sure if that is true or not.

I flipped over to WHIO analog when I was having some problems with dropouts on WBNS but didn't want to have to turn my antenna around to get WHIO-DT or WKRC-DT.

OK, so i tried something new the other night. I have been reading on these forums that the built in hd decoder in my set is capable of receiving unscrambled digital cable signals. So right now I pay for roadrunner and standard basic cable. I thought it would be interesting to try to split my cable feed to see if my tv would receive any of the digital stations. So I did some wire fishing and splitting and to my surprise I could pull in about 20 channels. I was really happy to notice that I had the "INHD" channels. Now comes the strange thing. I did the initial wiring on Thursday night, and I was getting a strong signal on the cable line(important since I have nearly 200ft of wire from the set to the box outside) around 85 or so. I went to bed feeling pretty good. The next day I fire it up, of corse when I have some friends over to show them how nice HD looks, and nothing. I was getting like no signal from any of the HD channels. I could still get 93(fox) and all the pbs channels except pbshd, but nothing else. So to my dismay it doesn't work after all . I was really hoping that by hooking up the cable I could get a more constant signal from my locals. My OTA setup is still really quirky. I'll be watching a channel for say an hour and then all the sudden it drops to like a signal of ~25 and stays that way for a good 5 or ten minutes. It is really nice when you are watching a show like CSI and you miss the last 5 minutes due to "weak signal." So anyways I guess I need to look into an outdoor UHF only antenna that is going to pull in stations better. It really is funny though, because I can sit on my back porch and see the towers. The problem is my path to the towers is directly through lots of trees. I don't know, it all seems silly to me that you buy a set with all this new technology inside and yet it relies on a piece of hardware(antenna) from a hundred years ago. Thanks for listening to me complain.

jbh 613

Cable uses a different encoding scheme than ATSC. QAM and 8VSB are not compatible, although a few cable companies do use the OTA (8VSB) scheme. If you're that close to the towers, I would guess that enough of the OTA signal leaked into the cable system that your receiver got a lock. It's like when you tune to a cable channel that's the same as an OTA analog channel and you can see the ghost of the OTA channel in the system.

Sets that incorporate an addressable digital cable decoder (are there any, yet?) still have to be authorized by the cable system in order to work. At least that's my understanding.

Doc

Doc,

I don't know about jbh613's set, but most of the newest chips in the newest STB's handle both (OTA ATC)8VSB+QAM(digital cable), because of the digital cable Plug&Play ruling+ ATSC Tuner mandate. I'd think the manual for the set/etc. should hopefully have some info/specs if it does do QAM, and or/ is "digital cable Plug&Play ready"/etc. ...

If it does do QAM(I'd think that's what TW Dayton is using, but just guessing), --- If his "subscription" covers the unscrambled digital/HD channels, seems like he might be able to get them -- as you say, the cableco might have to set it up ...

jbh613,

I know we've discussed your OTA reception situation before, so don't know what else I can add, but some thoughts FWIW ..

#1. If you can see the towers -- regardless of whether the trees are there, you should be able to easily get good reception. I don't know what is going on and there may be something quite "odd" going on, but there should be a way for you to get reliable reception of the Dayton, and probably Cincinnati stations too.

Antenna and RF is more "hi-tech" than sending signal over Wires! Wires came before "wireless"! I think it's funny that the "wireless" part of services that involve monthly subscription fees are often touted as some high-technology break through ... But the truth is, where the important fundamentals are concerned that make these services work, there is NO difference between them and how OTA TV, Radio broadcasting or Marconi's signals via "morse code". RF is RF, and if you ever want to do a little digging involving the physics involved, you might be surprised at how "how tech" sending and receiving radio waves is as compared to sending them over a wire(or even fiber optic) ....

Hard to say, but I doubt the trees are causing you too much difficulty. Not to say comparing between locations is a good idea -- but FWIW, I have all kinds of trees nearby+between me and the Cincy towers, I can get most of the Cincy/Dayton digitals just fine with the $3 RS "outline bowtie" placed near a window facing the towers.

Trees attenuate signal a bit, but not by a large factor - Not a good idea though to have a nearby antenna aimed right into a tree trunk though. Trees/leaves don't "create" multipath, but they can be multipath factors as they can change the "multipath conditions" by blocking a bit(especially on higher frequencies/channels) of the direct signal+multipath echoes, and things can change with the multipath conditions at a location because of the difference between leaves being on trees and off. I don't have any problems with the digitals, but when the wind is blowing the tree limbs around a lot, it does cause some dynamic multipath conditions that cause fluttery ghosts on stations such as WKEF 22, WRGT 45 - "sort of" like(but not as bad) the fluttery ghosts I get on analogs(still no problem with digital) when a plane flies through the signal path.

Anyhow, seems strange that you can go an hour and things are fine, and then it you lose it for 5-10 minutes ... If it is that "stopwatchable", I have to wonder if there is some sort of interference issue involved - Seeing what happens to the analogs when the reception problems occur might tell you something. Could be multipath too I suppose -- difficult to try to guess with the antenna indoors what all the potential multipath are ... but I can't really think of any potential cause of multipath outdoors that would "only" be there once an hour or so, and 5-10 minutes at a time.

well as far as the cable situation, my hitachi manual says that my decoder is for " an un-encrypted digital CATV input" it then goes on to say "you may ask your local cable company whether DTV services are available. So basically I know that Thursday night it worked, now it doesnt, oh well I'm just frustrated with the whole thing. It just makes me want the whole switchover to all HD broadcast to happen sooner so the broadcasters have to offer a more reliable data stream. It kills me how you guys pull in all those channels when I have seriously tried everything I can to get a good signal that doesnt drop. I've almost decided that it could just be the tuner in my set, but I really have no way to figure that out. At this point I am willing to seek professional help(for the tv not me...... yet) does anyone here know of a local professional on antennas and setups?

Originally posted by jbh613
Does anyone here know of a local professional on antennas and setups?

If I recall correctly, there are a couple of folks on some of the archived Cincy threads who had good results from some installers in the Cincy area(you'll have to search through the Cincy threads to find the info), I don't know if those outfits service the Dayton area.

My Dayton Phone book is only the white pages, but in the Middletown book, all I see listed under "antenna" is Starpath Satellite in Hunter.(That's just a couple miles East of I-75 at Middletown 122 exit).

In their ad, it says they do 4DTV (that's big dish(sat) HD), so it's possible they might have an installer there that knows OTA H(DTV) and OTA antennas as well. Who knows, they might even have a spectrum analyzer and hopefully they might know how to use it as well, who knows. I looked them up on web, doesn't look like they have a website, but here is the contact info for them:

Franklin

Starpath Satellite Systems
4169 State Route #122
Franklin 45005

(513) 746-4986
(513) 746-4911 FAX

-------------------------

I had heard, at least at some point that Radio Shack did antenna installs as well, but I don't know what sort of service or installation you'd get.

Jeff or anyone else in the know- Earlier we had talked about "stacking" my silver sensors (I know outdoor antenna would be better, but it's not an option). If I stacked them side by side; with good spacing as we disscussed earlier, would that double my field of vision and allow me to pull channels without having to move my antenna in my attic. I know thats clear as mud. Example, If I turn it a little left I can get nbc 51 really well, but that brings 41 cbs down to okay. If I go right -vice vesa. If I had them stacked evenly in the same direction, with the same length of cable- could I overcome some of the varations in reception. Again, logic would tell me yes, but I'm learning OTA is very wierd, fickle bird. lol

Thanks,
Tom

Tom,

IF you do it right, I'd say there's a good chance stacking the silver sensors could improve your reception.

As long as the antennas involved are identical, and you have both antennas aimed in the same direction(and have them hooked up properly so they are in phase(equal lengths of coax(75 ohm - RG6/RG59/etc - just as we normally used) between combiner(2 way splitter used "backwards"+antenna, good spacing, the latter being an area you can experiment with ) It would increase the directivity --in other words, in your terms, "narrow" the field of vision, and reject more of the portions of signals being received off the side or back of the antenna --

Which should be just fine and which should be a GOOD thing for reception of Dayton stations since they are on the same heading anyway. You aren't having to change the antenna aiming because of the towers being in different locations, hard to say, I'd guess it's happening because the multipath conditions are slightly different for the different frequencies involved. Properly stacking the antennas can help that ...

If the stacked antennas are out of phase(such as aimed in different directions) then this will increase multipath difficulties as portions of the signal will arrive at one antenna at different times than the other ones ... which is why you want them to be in phase ... Some folks get lucky, but this is why you don't really want to just combine 2 antennas onto the same feedline and aim them in different directions.

I think I had provided a link to this excellent article on antenna stacking before, but in case I didn't -- check it out(note, a 2 way splitter used backwards is a "hybrid Coupler/combiner" as referred to in the article") :

http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/stackant.html

Originally posted by jenkinswoody
Again, logic would tell me yes, but I'm learning OTA is very wierd, fickle bird.


Well, there are a lot of factors involved, and sometimes "weird" things can happen, but for the most part I'd have to disagree. OTA usually works very "logically", if you understand the issues/principles involved. For instance, for best results, use a directional,antenna mounted outdoors, as high as reasonably possible and aimed towards the desired towers. Doesn't mean you can't get good reception from indoors, but that's the "rule of thumb" way to achieve best reception results possible at any given location.

I believe I have provided this link before as well --- here you can delve a bit into the "logic" of OTA antennas and reception and how it works on VHF/UHF/FM :

http://www.kyes.com/antenna/antennadex.html

Jeff,

I read them, but being around OTA's for about 3 weeks now I wanted to double check before I pd $25 more for another antenna. So far I'm really happy with what I'm getting versus what I spent- I just want to keep it that way! lol. Thank god for cheap prices on the internet. BTW any preference on types of "splitters?"

Originally posted by jenkinswoody
BTW any preference on types of "splitters?"

Not really -- They are pretty simple devices, and generally any 2 way splitter(we should be calling it a hybrid coupler/combiner for this application, since you're using it "backwards" ;-) should have close to same insertion loss as any other. I have seen a couple of the cheapest splitters you can get do perhaps a little worse, but we are probably talking 1-2db at most, and probably wouldn't even be noticable .. but, you might not want to get the cheapest $1.99 spltter at walmart, but the $5 splitter at walmart or radio shack or whereever should be just about as good as any.

Have there been any HD games from the NCAA's shown here?

I tried WKRC and WHIO but did not see any HD when they would switch to Kansas City.

I don't think so. I didn't think there were any HD games scheduled by CBS today and I didn't pay any attention to it at all today ... I'm pretty sure neither WHIO-DT or WKRC-DT aired any of yesterday's HD games. Who knows about tomorrow ---

CBS HD games schedule for Yesterday and tomorrow is currently here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=379388

Originally posted by DrDon
Did anybody call them? Can tell you how many times a simple phone call has gotten a switch thrown. You should call.

Doc


Yes, I spoke with several people on the Technical side & in Programing. Again I was lead to believe, available games in HD would be shown on 41-1. but 41-2 and analog feeds would be "local" games.

I meant DURING the broadcast. I've called our FOX station when they've missed a switch so many times they know me and strike up a conversation when I call. They also miss far fewer widescreen switches than they used to. Call the newsroom hotline, if there is on. Be VERY NICE, even if they're grumpy. I guarantee, a few calls will get a memo sent to engineering <G>. I've been there.

Doc

I just called WHIO about HD not being on (at least that I've seen) the past couple days. I spoke to a guy in the newsroom (very nice) and he asked if they were in HD today- I said yeah, a couple of them starting around 2- 2:30 and he said that he'd pass the word on. We'll see!?

Originally posted by parrot1
Yes, I spoke with several people on the Technical side & in Programing.

Just wondering ... Since you talked to them, Did you happen to get any info from them concerning why we have to see intolerable compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding portions of HD programming on 41-1- due to less data bandwidth being allocated to HD, so we can get the SAME programming simulcast in SD on 41-2?

Thanks,

Good luck on that one!

Didn't think it would hurt to ask ;-)

Especially since the only people I've talked to or have been able to contatct at WHIO-DT are the master control op's and newsroom people when I've called them about missing HD ... Which has allways worked when i've called, but I'm thinking the situation with the NCAA tourney+HD games might have been a little different than "usual" where scheduling/etc is concerned - hopefully, things will be better for the rest of the HD games CBS is going to carry.

I'm guessing(just guessing) that they haven't aired any HD games yet because of issues such as the local ad insertions, or the games of local interest involved .. Such as not wanting to miss U.C./U.K games if a earlier game ran over/etc(although when I looked Fri night, WKRC had the UK game, WHIO had something different) ...

Same thing with WKRC-DT, especially since they are inserting local ads during CBS HD these days .... Of course, WHIO has allways inserted local ads during HD, and even last year, except for one exception I noticed(and that might have even been a mistake), the game that aired on the analog and 41-2 also aired on 41-1 ... IF THAT game was HD, then it was HD on 41-1, otherwise we got SD. The situation was different last year from WKRC-DT, they'd air a HD game regardless of what was on the analog.

If so ... Then overall, it's a good thing, as it would seem to indicate to me that the digital station is becoming more important to them.

Seems like though, if that were the case, they should have told Tom+parrot what was going on ... Although, I suppose it could have been something along the lines of 1 hand at the station didn't know what the other hand was doing ... I think the HD schedule for the games over the weekend may have happened pretty quickly.

BTW, They did have Cold case HD and the CBS HD 2hr 30 min movie last night even though the game+60 minutes ran late ... I was watching other "American Dreams" on WKEF-DT(HD too BTW)+WLWT-DT but I managed to switch over to WHIO-DT for a second and even heard a little "audio" pop when they switched to CBS HD feed during a nat'l commercial break around 8:15pm) ... WKRC-DT ran Cold Case HD, but a different movie(SD - not from CBS) at 9:15pm -- Just guessing, but I'm thinking since the CBS movie was 2hr 30mn, perhaps WKRC figured(well beforehand since their different movie was even in TV guide) the game might go late anyway, and wanted to get their local news up as close to 11 as possible rather than at 11:50pm as would have been the case if they had ran the CBS HD movie ...

I of course had to watch HD alias at 9 on WDTN-DT(Ah, the DD 5.1 - Hopefully WCPO-DT will get DD 5.1 soon), but I did record the movie from WHIO-DT(anamorphically "squeezed" to SVHS via S-video connection from STB so I can stretch it back out to 16x9 for viewing - about 2x the rez of standard VHS, and close to "anamoprhic" DVD quality) just for the heck of it.

I called WHIO during the Sunday afternoon games and got someone in the newsroom. The conversation went something like this:

Me: "Do you know why the HD NCAA game isn't being shown?"
Them: "I don't think it is on in HD". (They were showing the UC game at the time).
Me: "The Oklahoma State game is available in HD."
Them: "We don't have that game, we have the UC game"
Me: "So you don't get to pick what game to air?"
Them: "No CBS tells us which games we can air"

That doesn't seem right to me, but that's what they said...

It's not right. Sounds like they just wanted you off the phone as soon as possible so they could get back to work.

Which is a good reason to keep pestering them when they aren't doing it right<g> ---

If they aren't doing HD "when available", it would be nice if they could at least find a way to be honest about it concerning why .... although I suppose the person answering the phone might not really "know" why ....

Like tonight, for example, WHIO hasn't been HD from 8:00-9:12... I've called twice, but no one has answered when i've been transfered to engineering

I doubt you'll get anyone in engineering after normal business hours(5pm).

The way it has worked for me is -- Call newsroom, ask to be transfered to control room -- If they won't do that(they usually don't, unless Control room guy answers the phone -- that actually happened to me once I believe) tell them HD is missing, and ask them to pass your message along to the Control room to Please switch to CBS HD ...

It helps if you also have reception of WKRC-DT or WBNS-DT or a report from AVSforum, so if they say "are you sure that is in HD?" or, "I Don't think that's HD"/etc, you can say "Yes, it's HD on WKRC-DT Cincinnati/etc" .. I've had to do that ...

It is of course possible they are having problems the Tech on duty can't "fix", or if you don't know if other CBS stations are providing HD, it's also possible a network issue is involved ... Even in those cases however, nothing wrong with calling them and asking for HD ...

Anyhow, that's rare for them to miss CBS Monday night HD at least as I can recall back to end of 2001 or so, when it wasn't necessarily uncommon to see them miss HD for a week at a time ...CBS HD still missing at 9:50pm, CBS HD still fine on WKRC-DT cincy BTW, just checked, and Others here have been watching it on the HT since 8pm ...

One of my friends from WSU works for the radio side at Cox doing production, so occasionally I get him to relay my feedback to the TV side. I have yet to get much of a return path or contacts made through him though.

I'm trying to give feedback in a nice manner and resist the temptation to tell them how easy it is for me to punch over to WBNS instead (to enjoy HD done right!). I do need to keep my options open though....I discovered while watching the multicasts that WBNS reception can be flaky at times. Sometimes I think it's correlated to heavy aircraft activity at the base....it seemed like I was getting pixelation/dropouts whenever the C-141s were overhead.

Makes sense. Weak signal+dynamic Multipath(caused by aircraft in or near signal path)=makes it more difficult for equalizer in receiver to correct for the multipath.

Jeff or anyone else....

Noticing any "enhanced conditions" on your reception tonight?

I've picked up WCMH-DT 14 out of Columbus tonight...never gotten them before at all. I'm also getting DTV blink from WOSU-DT 38 which usually never shows up at all.

Cincy/Dayton stations seem normal although WXIX-DT is coming in when it wasn't last Sunday when I was trying to watch the race for a bit *grumble*.

BTW, does WCET-DT sign off at 11:00? I noticed I wasn't getting them after that time.

1450KHZ,

Yep, WCET-DT signs off at 11pm usually every night(I've seen them, rarely, stay on air a little longer) ...

At 12:30a, swung the "big antenna" around a bit and did a couple of checks ... conditions are just Slightly above winter dead band(very slightly)conditions here .. isn't much, but there are some weak, but steady short range DX signals about ... For instance, close to a lock on WSYX-DT 13 but not quite. Getting just a tad bit more from WKON 52 (KET Owenton, KY(76 Miles) than is the case under "dead band" conditions, and seems to be improving presently ...

BTW, long as I'm posting, noticed WHIO-DT missed the CBS HD again tonight. Wonder what's up up there?

1450kHz


I saw enhanced reception of the Columbus digitals last night between 6 and 9 PM. WOSU-DT came across a wide angle of antenna rotation, whereas it is normally only about 5 degrees with a stable lock for me, pointed slightly north of the others. I picked it up 40 degrees off axis while pointing toward WWHO-DT. I frequently get wide reception from WBNS and WCMH and saw them, too pointed towards Cincy. Some of the analogs were slightly stronger as well.

Greg

ok. nitewatch, sorry to be such an annoying person, but maybe you could recommend a good antenna for my situation from this site? http://www.antennasdirect.com/MediumRangeAntennas.htm
I was debating the second one (the DB4 High Gain Multi - Directional), but am wondering if since it states from 10-55 mile range and I am closer than 10 miles if that would cause a problem? Seriously, I really owe everyone here a beer, and you especially Jeff!

It looks like WKEF has invented a new form of "weirdscreen" at least on my monitor.

There's picture on the bottom half of the screen but black with gray diagonal lines on the top.
Looks normal on WLWT-DT. Also on WCMH-DT (still picking it up tonight but not near as good as last night).

1450khz,

Yeah -- I noticed that too from WKEF-DT tonight, with WLWT-DT fine ...I'm getting Sort of interesting looking "Dr. Who like" effects on 51-1 happening just below the 1/2 screen "border" between the diagonal lines above, and the HD below ...

HD is back on WHIO-DT tonight though ...

jbh613,

You're not being annoying. You really can't have "too much" antenna no matter how close you are to the towers -- If there were a rare case where you were getting "too much" signal w/o a preamp, you could allways use a attenuator to knock down the signals a bit. Preamp however at your distance probably would probably cause problems --- Also --- You also can't really put a lot of stock in the mileage figures manufacturers put up. Much depends upon a lot of factors, especially for "fringe areas" ... wouldn't be a problem for you for Dayton, but for Cincy -- The terrain between your location and towers, station power/etc. being a couple of those possible factors involved ...

Anyhow I 'd think The DB4 would be a good choice for your location for a UHF antenna -- However, keep in mind there is probably no antenna out there that will give you a shot at receiving good reception from Both the Cincinnati and Dayton stations with one antenna heading from your location - You never know it might, but I wouldn't count on it --- Whatever you get, stick it up on a mast in the yard first(or experiment in the attic/or indoors in different spots/etc) and give it a shot to see what you get with different antenna headings(Towards Dayton(~West basically) Towards Cincinnati(etc). to see what you get before installing it in it's permanent spot ... Finding a good spot to put the antenna can be important ... even moving it a bit up/down - left right back forwards/etc/etc/ can make a Big difference in some cases.

Also, hard to say without doing a direct comparision, but I doubt the DB4 would perform much(if any) differently from the CM3021/CM4221(CM3021/CM4221 are the same antenna) - They are both 4 bay bowtie antennas :

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?CAT=&PROD=ANC3021

Good luck+let us know how it goes,

Hey ... I just saw WHIO actually advertise NCAA HD games in promo during 6pm news :)

I had just walked into room and caught the end of it, but there were a couple of the HD games listed(maybe tomorrow nights HD games) and a big "HDTV" logo in the middle of on screen between the two listed games --

The announcer actually specifically mentioned 41 dot one for HD OTA as well as the TW channel for HD from WHIO-DT!

Update: Just checked their website - Says they are going to have the HD games on 41 tomorrow night, here:

http://www.whiotv.com/news/2945551/detail.html

According to schedule at above link ... Looks like they are going to have different games tomorrow night on the analog(and presumably on 41-2)

We will see ....

Jeff..

Sounds like a sponsor bought the coverage ;)

Either that or they are getting tired of the phone calls ;-)

We've got HD for UAB VS. KS from WHIO-DT/ 41-1 at 7:20pm! Right now, the same game is on the analog and 41-2.

WKRC/DT is also showing the same game presently, but it is ALL SD, even on WKRC-DT 31.

Update: 7:30pm - Hey we finally get to see some benefit from "multicasting" and WHIO-DT! HD game still on 41-1, Texas vs. Xavier on 41-2, analog 7, WKRC 12 and WKRC-DT 31. Understandable I suppose considering that it is a game of local interest that WKRC-DT wants to air the Xavier game, instead of the HD game.

WBNS is doing the same thing, with the HD feed of UAB/KU on 10-1 and SD of the X game on 10-2. I'm watching them so I get the 5.1 audio.

They must use a stat-mux or something else better in their TX chain since I'm not seeing too much macroblocking on 10-1.

Finally NCAAS in HD! Lets hope the 2nd game is better than the first! lol

I finally got to see a decent HD game on Sunday (KU/GT). Watched the first half on WKRC but switched to WBNS for the second half.

I didn't see any of the race coverage (Fox Widescreen) since I had to point the big antenna at Columbus for the NCAA's.

Sounds like you need some more antennas+feedlines and a/b switches(or a "jointenna" for 21+dedicated antenna for 21) ... Or a rotor ;-)

BTW, WXIX-DT/Fox had the Saturday+Sunday Races in Fox WS ...

I do have an A/B switch and two separate antennas with a small (Radio Shack 75R) yagi pointed at Columbus while my combined Channel Master 4-bay bowties are pointed at Cincinnati (I need them for WXIX and WCET).

The yagi gets WBNS and WCMH under most circumstances but for some reason it wasn't quite enough on Sunday (noise floor was up on a warm day most likely).

1450

Wasn't the warm day so much as the front coming in behind it. Nothing like a little tropospheric ducting to ruin some DT dx-ing. <g>. OTOH, the same front blocked some interference for me and brought WHIO up to local strength for me on Saturday.

Doc

I think I have finally solved my antenna issue. I worked for many hours the other night moving the antenna around from place to place in the house and up inthe attic. I finally found a point in the attic that worked great. I have been watching all locals with minimal reception dropouts. So I shouldnt be on here complaining anymore. Any more word on the fox widescreen switch?

I haven't heard any more on the status of Fox Widescreen on WRGT at this point. I watch the widescreen stuff on WXIX when I can pick them up.

Is there now a permanent deal in place for CBS/WHIO DT on cable? I've been seeing ads to "catch the Final Four on digital channel 707" on Time Warner along with a mention of WHIO. I only have analog cable and get my DTV stations OTA so I can't verify if WHIO-DT is still present on Time Warner.
I'll most likely watch the games on WBNS instead (better PQ and DD 5.1 audio), but I was just curious if a deal had finally been struck.

Yeah, WHIO is still on Time Warner Cable. I believe it's now an permanent addition to the lineup.

I guess that KIND of softens the blow of losing inHD1 and inHD2 to the new HD tier. :-(

You're right, it sucks to lose INHD1 and INHD2. It won't suck enough for me to pay for them though. Now if ESPNHD gets added to that tier, well.... that's another story.

CBS, NBC, and Discovery HD will have to do for now. Hopefully we'll get ABC soon and also get ESPNHD for no added charge.

Originally posted by Vader
You're right, it sucks to lose INHD1 and INHD2. It won't suck enough for me to pay for them though. Now if ESPNHD gets added to that tier, well.... that's another story.

CBS, NBC, and Discovery HD will have to do for now. Hopefully we'll get ABC soon and also get ESPNHD for no added charge.

I agree wholeheartedly. INHD1 & 2 are nice, but they have little content I care about. I already have good stuff on Discovery HD, HBO HD, and Showtime HD, plus the (sometimes) HD content of CBS, NBC, and FOX. That's a nice package, and not much of a motivation to pay $8 MORE a month for the INHD and HDNET package.

I really want ABC in HD so I can finally see "Alias" (and whatever hockey playoffs are in HD) in HD, moreso even than ESPN HD. Now, come football season, I *might* see adding the HD Tier if ESPN HD is aboard, but we'll see.

Originally posted by HangEmHi
plus the (sometimes) HD content of CBS, NBC, and FOX ....


Doesn't TW Dayton Carry PBS HD from WPTD-DT (ThinkTV/PBS Dayton) as well? -- PBS HD channel should be on TW Channel 716 Every night between 6pm~6am.

Also --- I'm curious, how are you getting Fox Widescreen? WXIX-DT, Fox Cincinnati sends us Fox Widescreen, but WRGT-DT (Fox Dayton) Doesn't pass through Fox widescreen, so far, anyway, since first coming on air 5/1/02. I sent WRGT/WKEF CE a note a few weeks back asking for an update on Fox WS/etc, I didn't get a response this time.

BTW, Fox Doesn't do HD yet -- Not until later this year - Many programs are broadcast by Fox in Fox Widescreen however --

Originally posted by HangEmHi

.... I really want ABC in HD so I can finally see "Alias"

For those of you who use cable .. Hopefully TW Dayton/Western OH will eventually(someday) carry HD from all the Dayton stations (and who knows -- maybe some of the Cincy or Columbus HD/DTV stations too) but keep in mind :

ABC HD is available OTA in our area if you want it. Alias in HD looks and sounds great(DD 5.1) every week on WDTN-DT, ABC Dayton (Looks good on WCPO-DT Cincinnati, too).... WSYX-DT Columbus has ABC HD as well.... ABC HD has been broadcast by WDTN-DT Since 1/03, and by WCPO-DT since 1998!

Since LIN(who seems very committed to HD+DTV) owns WDTN-DT, I assume they'll have the NBC HD after they make the switch to NBC HD late this summer but -- I don't know what will happen concerning future possibility of HD from WKEF-DT Dayton. Just because WKEF-DT has NBC HD now, doesn't necessarily mean they'll have HD from whatever network they end up with after the switch. If I recall correctly -- at the time WKEF-DT came on air, NBC may have been providing to stations quite a bit of the equipment necessary for HD pass through.

---------------------

FWIW, Via OTA (For free, besides the hardware costs) I get all the HD/Fox Widescreen from Cincinnati+Dayton stations : ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS + Fox Widescreen as well as Paramount's HD-one Movies+ WEBN Fireworks in HD from WKRC-DT Cincy the past couple of years.

NO Dropouts here ... Since I've been using the antenna setup for decades, and I've been watching HD for over 2 years now, the receivers(2) have already paid for themsevles many times when compared to the cost of subscription services .... Only thing missing in Cincy and Dayton HD wise that is available OTA is HD from WB+UPN ...

Another great thing about OTA is -- Depending upon your location and antenna setup --- You can often get stations from another nearby market which won't be carried by your local cableco ... This is especially nice to have a "backup" when a station misses HD, has other programming(or sports events) scheduled/etc ....

Has any one called WHIO about Thurs. & Fridays Masters coverage? It was announced that many CBS affiliates will be carrying late afternoon action.

no idea, but i'll be watching on INHD1... I'm hoping that WHIO does carry it though, i think they might considering they stepped up during the Elite 8 and multicasted.

HD Masters is on WHIO-DT 41-1 at 4pm ... 41-2 simulcast of WHIO 7 as normal ...

WKRC-DT Cincy isn't currently carrying the masters HD coverage ...

Good Job WHIO... now all i have to do is wait till 5 so i can go home and watch!!!

WKRC-DT just switched.

Doc

I noticed they cut away from golf on 41-1 @ 6:30 for CBS National news. Luckily D* had USAs HD feed on 84.

Once they quit arbitrarily cutting in and out of local news, WKRC-DT stayed with the golf right up to the end.

anyone else experiencing no signal from 41-1 this morning(sat)?

Originally posted by jbh613
anyone else experiencing no signal from 41-1 this morning(sat)?

WHIO-DT 41 appears to be off the air at 1:10pm EST Sat.

I just called WHIO and they verified that they are having problems and that they are working on them. I asked if they would have it up by 3:30 for the Masters HD coverage, and he said he expects it to be up. Everyone needs to call in and complain to light a fire under them...

WHIO-DT back on air at 2:26pm.

Yep, thank god, i was starting to worry, nothing like having people coming over in an hour for HD, and the digital station being down. (It things like these that tempts me to get a better antenna and mount it on the house to bring in the 'nati stations)

It seems like as long as we keep calling WHIO (B-Ball and Masters) that we will get our HD sports! = )

A quick question. My dish is grounded using RG6 cable with an attached grounding wire. It is run thru a "grounding block" that is not grounded by itself - the "grounding block has two inputs and outputs. So since my dish is grounded independently and run through the block, does that make it okay for me to attach an off air antenna to the other half of the same block with out grounding it?

In other words does the dish cable being grounded make the the "grounding block" safe to hook up an antenna thru too?

thanks,
tom

Tom,

Well, it probably seems like a easy question to answer, and I know you are looking for a quick answer, but it is a bit of a difficult issue to address. I don't really feel comfortable advising you on the specifics of what you should do in your case, but I can hopefully aim you in the right direction(s) for more info ....

Anyhow ... I Suppose it depends upon what you mean by "safe" ... Keeping your house from burning down if lightning strikes your dish or antenna "safe", or, grounding "to code" and minimizing the chances as much as possible for equipment damage as well as being "insurance adjuster" "safe" ... For instance, it doesn't take a lightning strike to damage equipment due to improper grounding -- Static buildup can occur if proper grounding isn't implemented -- where antenna/dish masts are concerned, Wind+dust particles create static buildup, this is one reason why the mast should be grounded on antennas/dishes as well as the outer conductor of coax involved ...

Of course, don't expect proper grounding "to code" to protect your equipment from damage if you get a direct lightning strike to your antenna/dish or a nearby spot on your cable TV line or phone line/etc. Yes, Phone/Cable TV lines or any cable that comes into your house is usually pretty much just as potentially likely to carry damaging current from lightning into your house+equipment as is a antenna or dish, especially so if proper grounding wasn't implemented ...

NEC requirements for proper grounding of antennas/dishes involve grounding the outer conductor of Coax(each feedline must be properly grounded) near where the Coax enters the house, AND the antenna and Dish mast(s) -- These grounds should be bonded with your main electrical service ground to prevent ground loop. Local codes may vary.

I can tell you over the years that I've seen many "professional" installs for cable/Phone/DBS service for which IMO, grounding was not properly implemented.

For more info and the specifics involved, Best thing I can think of to suggest is to check out some of these excellent threads on Grounding as well as some of the outside links provided in these threads :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=344245

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=369473

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=371261

Hope some of that helps,

Thanks for the links, i'll read in to it. It seems like this is one of those times where its better safe than sorry.

Tom

Normally, the way my TV is set up 4:3 SDTV like WRGT DTV is stretched to fill my 16:9 tv. Tonight during American Idol, the side black bars are there, but it's still 480i (happening on both TWC 745 and OTA 30-1), eventhough i haven't changed any settings on my TV (all PBS digitals (non 1080i) still are stretched. Any chance WRGT may be broadcasting Fox Widescreen now? Anyone else seeing anything else like this?

Update: Switched back to the digital station, and it's back to normal now... dunno what's going on

Browerjs,

Yep. Good catch!

#1)For those first few minutes you were seeing the "feed"-* Fox uses for widescreen programming just as they send it to the stations(as 480i "anamorphic") They use it to send 4x3 programming for use by the digital stations as well, btw -- Fox adds the black "sidebars" at the network level for 4x3 programmming.

* - actually, it's not the "feed" that is different, different receivers are used at the affiliate, one receiver(Called RX A) which does a center cut of the 4x3 area for the analog(and has been used for WRGT-DT so far, evidently) but that's a long story so I'll just use the word "feed" here ...


#2) The video formatting problem they were having between 8-8:15pm was fixed as of 8:15pm -- When the problem was occuring -- That's what we call "weirdscreen" from WXIX-DT Cincinnati when they "mess up"-- 4x3 is "squeezed" into a 3x3 area, and 16x9 is "squeezed" into a 4x3 area. Since WXIX upconverts to 1080i though there's not much most of us can do about it to fix it when we send 1080i from our STBs!

Since I guess the news is out, FYI, I received a note from Roland - CE at WKEF/WRGT just a couple of hours ago --- Follows is a summary --- He asked me to check out WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT tonight, and had said that starting tonight, they are using the automated switching equipment for WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT AND that they were planning on sending Fox Widescreen Tomorrow night(Thur night) ... so, looks like they might also be experimenting a bit with the Fox Widescreen "feed" tonight as well.

BTW, I noticed that so far tonight, the switching for the local ad inserts have went smooth as silk on WRGT-DT, hopefully all will go well for the NBC HD later tonight from WKEF-DT.(shouldn't be any more "blank spots" or NBC Peacock Flags/etc --- Switch to/from NBC HD feed will be automated as well) .... IMO, Video from WRGT-DT (even from the local stuff) looks better tonight, too I haven't checked out WKEF-DT tonight too much yet ... Also noticed there is no crease to left of Fox Bug on WRGT-DT! (it is still there on analog 45 though.)

So, things seem to be going fairly well for them so far tonight :-)

I'm guessing they aren't experimenting with The OC... I've never seen FOX WS though so i don't know... Will it come across as 480p?

I think you guessed right. It's either 480i or 480p 4x3 ATSC format from WRGT-DT tonight, probably still 480i 4x3. Tonight, "O.C." is 16x9 Fox Widescreen from WXIX-DT Cincinnati, upconverted to 1080i at the station. Fox Widescreen is just "like HD"(fills a 16x9 screen, programming is 16x9 aspect ratio) as far as screen formatting goes from WXIX-DT(when they do it right that is), but of course it doesn't look quite as good as HD since the source programming is Not "IN HD" from Fox.

When WRGT-DT does start passing through Fox Widescreen -- What we will get depends upon what ATSC format WRGT-DT ends up sending us. It could be 16x9 480p ATSC format, or it could be upconverted to 720p or 1080i by WRGT-DT. Either way, the feed they get from Fox, and the "resolution" of the programming is still 480i 16x9 "anamoprhic" -- Just like a "anamorphic" widescreen DVD - until Fox "goes HD" later this year, of course.

Originally posted by browerjs
I've never seen FOX WS though so i don't know...

Perhaps this might help ... Attached are a couple of screenshots tonight(taken with digital camera, sorry about quality/focus) .... At top is a frame from "O.C." in Fox Widescreen from WXIX-DT Cincinnati. At bottom is a different frame fro "O.C." in "standard" 4x3 from a few seconds later from WRGT-DT.

Jeff

Thanks for the exciting news about Dayton Fox Widescreen! I haven't been this excited since PBS went on the air (oaky, I'm lying - I have on order an HD Tivo - that makes me pretty excited). Anyhow - I know it's very hard to judge quality by the pictures you posted, but your WRGT-DT screenshot looks pretty hot (and I'm not talking about the girl). The image looks very sharp. For me, when I watch fox, I go back to the NTSC tuner - I think it looks a tad bit better than the DT picture, though I haven't compared it recently. What's your comment on PQ for WRGT DT vs Analog?

keep up the great work!

-Bruce

Great news, Did you guys see the FOX announcement about the NFL, Lots of HD football coming this fall.


THE BENGALS HAVE A MONDAY NIGHT GAME......

I'll have to turn the antenna back to the "Dayton/Cincinnati" heading and see what I get tonight. (Haven't sat down to watch any OTA/HD since the NCAA's....) I guess "Tru Calling" is supposed to be Fox WS, right?

Fox is supposed to have a Friday night baseball game in widescreen this week as well.

I sure hope I can get Monday Night Football from someone passing 5.1 this year after WDTN goes to NBC.

Originally posted by parrot1
Great news, Did you guys see the FOX announcement about the NFL, Lots of HD football coming this fall.


THE BENGALS HAVE A MONDAY NIGHT GAME......

I was gonna try to get tickets to that game, but then i decided it would be pointless, considering i could sit at home and watch the Bengals in HD!!!

And save $$$ on snacks and beer! And, of course, have your own private restroom.

Doc (former Lions season ticket holder who gave up really good seats for NFL-ST. Which became easy to do when Sanders quit.)

Just checked out WRGT-DT -- Looks like they are checking things out with different settings perhaps on their aspect ratio converter/encoder/etc. Currently,(11:10~11:30am) They are sending a 16x9 ATSC format(don't know which one, can't tell with my equipment) --- The 4x3 Video currently airing(judge Mathis) is being sent as stretched to 16x9.

They've also thrown up a test pattern a few times in the last few minutes, I'm quite sure it is directly from the Fox Widescreen Feed(RX C), as a engineer from a Fox affiliate in NC has posted it on AVS before. Attached is a screenshot of the test pattern as sent by WRGT-DT a few minutes ago(I took this REALLY fast, so that's why it isn't level and doesn't look too good) :

Originally posted by buckeye1010
What's your comment on PQ for WRGT DT vs Analog?


I thought prior to last night the video from the digital looked pretty much the same from the analog+the digital - At one time, I do recall thinking the analog looked a tad better, but that might have had more to do with the display I was using+its line doubler/etc(That particular display shows 1080i natively via the internal tuner(DTC-100 basically), 1080i or 480p natively over component inputs -- 720p is upconverted to 1080i by it, EVERYTHING else is converted to 540p for display).

However, I had done a direct comparison a few months ago when sending 480i to monitors which were "native 480i(NTSC SD)"(i.e. POTV's(plain old TV's with composite inputs), and I thought the video from the analog+the DT looked exactly the same.

Last night though, for the first time I thought the video from the DT looked much better than the analog -- as it should, if it is sent as component video via ATSC as opposed to Composite NTSC video via the analog.

Originally posted by 1450KHZ
I guess "Tru Calling" is supposed to be Fox WS, right?

Fox is supposed to have a Friday night baseball game in widescreen this week as well.

I sure hope I can get Monday Night Football from someone passing 5.1 this year after WDTN goes to NBC.


Yes, should be. Has been so for on 'XIX-DT. I did notice that Fox is going to have an American Idol "results show" from 8pm-8:30pm tonight, and isn't going to air tru calling until 8:30pm.

I didn't know about the WS game from Fox Tomorrow night, Cool! Yankee's game is listed in my TV guide. I watched World Series in Fox WS last year on WXIX-DT and enjoyed it, although generally speaking to my eyes the Live stuff doesn't end up looking quite as good in Fox WS as the Filmed stuff/etc -- Going to be fun to compare PQ between WXIX+WRGT. Also ---Sounds like we *Might* be getting World Series in HD from Fox this year. NASCAR racing from Fox is of course in WS as well, as is "Fox News Sunday" and so is just about everything else except for the Reality TV stuff, Simpsons/King of the hill and the 70's show ...

------------------

Has anyone heard anything new about ABC in Dayton after the WDTN switch? -- Which looks like it is going to happen in September .... Last I had heard in one of the articles posted earlier in this thread, WKEF was in talks with ABC, but I hadn't heard anything about a agreement.

On the Bengals, good to hear they will have a MNF game this coming season -- I haven't seen them on MNF since a game in Chicago in the Early 90's --- It was a good game which the Bengals won, one of the last with Boomer in as QB ... It was one of the very few "good games" for the Bengals I can recall in the past 12~14 years prior to the last couple of seasons ....

I do recall they were talking about the possibility of a Monday night game this coming year during the season last year on WCPO's "sports of all sorts". They had mentioned MNF had called WCPO and asked for some footage ... A comment was made that MNF hadn't called them about the Bengals in a looooong time ....

Regarding WRGT-DT picture quality, I had noticed the local syndicated material tended to look better than the Fox network material. Aside from the "crease" across the bottom, it also seemed like there was a little bit of moving hum bars in the video as well, generally visible on darker material on my display.

I had some problems with my own gear and a ground loop, but I had fixed that and still noticed some video noise on WRGT-DT when running Fox programs.
I had also seen some poor picture quality on WKRC-DT during some of the SD games of the NCAA telecasts. This was different...sort of stationary dark bands that would lend a yellowish cast to the wood courts. I didn't see that on WBNS or WHIO.

I'll look tonight and see if they hit widescreen and how it looks versus WXIX. Channel 19-1 usually looks good when sending Fox network, but the local commercials have had some rather poor picture quality (it could be because IIRC they were sending the stretched instead of pillarboxed).

I must say that the efforts of the local staff at WKEF/WRGT are to be commended, given their corporate parent's record with HDTV and DTV. They're making the rest of Sinclair look bad. :D