Here's what i don't understand about FOX Widescreen and what i'm going to need to do...

Right now I have my cable box and OTA box to automatically stretch 4:3 480i pictures. Now if WRGT does not upconvert their 480i to 1080i, i'm assuming i'm going to have to tweak with the box settings so the stretching doesn't take place... If it's 480p i assume i'll have to do the same thing???

Also, i'm wondering what will happen on Non HDTV TV sets that have the digital (non HD) cable box... Currently all of the Digital OTA stations that aren't in HD come through on the regular digital box (WRGT and all the non HD PBS stations come in, WHIO and WKEF won't tune in and don't show up in the guide)... I'm wondering if FOX widescreen will show up as letterboxed, if the don't take the channel off of the regular digital box.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
I must say that the efforts of the local staff at WKEF/WRGT are to be commended

Absolutely, I agree. I think Everyone should send them a thank you note or call and say thanks! Sinclair deserves some credit here too though, I think. For instance, they sent them the equipment -- Upconverter, auto-switcher, and encoder for WRGT-DT/etc ....


Originally posted by browerjs

Here's what i don't understand about FOX Widescreen and what i'm going to need to do...

Right now I have my cable box and OTA box to automatically stretch 4:3 480i pictures. Now if WRGT does not upconvert their 480i to 1080i, i'm assuming i'm going to have to tweak with the box settings so the stretching doesn't take place... If it's 480p i assume i'll have to do the same thing???


Short answer ... No, you shouldn't have to. Doesn't matter if its 480p, 720p, or 1080i, as long as they are sending a 16x9 ATSC format. Prior to today, WRGT-DT has been sending 480i 4x3 ATSC format, just like the other SD channels(with OTA DTV -- Just like 2-2, 16-2, 26-1/etc) , which is the video signal "formatted"+sent(screen aspect ratio wise) just like analog TV station -- 4x3 ... Starting today(at least currently) WRGT-DT(30-1) is sending a 16x9 signal(could be either 480p, 720p or 1080i, don't know which - probably 720p or 480p) --- just like the "HD" channels -- such as 2-1, 41-1, 51-1 OTA.

So, The aspect ratio is formatted for the screen just like the "HD" channels. They need to use a 16x9 format in order to send Fox Widescreen properly.

Now, I hope this makes some sense, but I'm probably going to confuse you a bit, because of what is currently happening with the non-fox programming on WRGT-DT . What is different Right now with Syndicated/local programming being aired on WRGT-DT, as compared to say, 51-1 is -- If you're like me and you want to see 4x3 AS 4x3(as it should be), you'd have to "squeeze" the video being aired currently by WRGT-DT so it will be properly formatted as 4x3(with black bars on the sides). BUT if they were sending Fox programming right now via the "Fox widescreen feed", it would be in properly formatted aspect ratio -- This is becauseas noted earlier, Fox sends their "Widescreen feed" as 480i anamorphic reqiring that it be "strecthed out"-* at the station for proper aspect ratio. So, right now, Fox WS would fill the screen, Fox 4x3 programming would have black bars on the sides -- JUST like a "anamorphic" DVD.

* -- this is a short explanation and while I consider it accurate, some would have issues with certian "semantics" involved concerning how I explained it.(some don't like using "anamoprhic" term since we aren't talking about anamorphic lens' here, and would rather I had used the term "16x9 NTSC video" --- But you probably wouldn't know what I was talking about if I had said "16x9 NTSC Video"). The full explanation would also be looong .... and is a little different if the station is sending 480p 16x9 format(uses Pixels that are wider than they are tall when 16x9 than for the HD 16x9 formats(720p+1080i - uses square pixels). If you're interested in learning more and getting a more accurate, detailed technical explanation, The following thread is one of many on this subject at AVSforum which you might want to "study":

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=321776&perpage=20&pagenumber=1


Anyhow, Right now, to properly send the syndicated/local programming as properly formatted 4x3 video, Basically speaking, they would have to change a setting(assuming they have the necessary equipment) to "squeeze it" (in other words, add side bars to "fill out" the 16x9 ATSC format they are using), and then they would have to remove that "squeeze"(or in other words "stretch it" when they switched to the Fox feed) in order for the "anamorphic" Fox material to have proper aspect ratio. WXIX-DT does have the equipment to properly format both Fox WS+local syndicated programming, although I often wish they'd just leave it "set" for Fox Widescreen mode, as they sometimes forget to make the proper "adjustments"(which are done manually in their case).

So, it Looks like right now, WRGT-DT has things set up so aspect ratio will be properly formatted for Fox Widescreen programming+the Fox "feed" via RX C, and everything else will be sent as 4x3 stretched to 16x9. This could change of course, but is the current situation. Hope that makes some sense.


Originally posted by browerjs

Also, i'm wondering what will happen on Non HDTV TV sets that have the digital (non HD) cable box... Currently all of the Digital OTA stations that aren't in HD come through on the regular digital box (WRGT and all the non HD PBS stations come in, WHIO and WKEF won't tune in and don't show up in the guide)... I'm wondering if FOX widescreen will show up as letterboxed, if the don't take the channel off of the regular digital box.


I hadn't thought of that. Unless it can downcovert it to 480i and letterbox or crop/zoom/etc(It would be able to do that with WHIO/WKEF as well), I'd guess the Non-HD cable box would only be able to show stations sending 480i 4x3 SD. So, It wouldn't be able to handle any 16x9 ATSC format, including whatever 16x9 ATSC format WRGT-DT is currently sending. Seems like WHIO-DT 41-2 and WKEF-DT 51-2 SD subchannels could show up though, if TW has those present on their system. Interestingly, also a "blank" 30-2 subchannel has allways shown up from WRGT-DT on my DTC-100, but it has never shown up on my HDV420 receiver.

I think the easiest way to figure out the stretching non stretching modes i'll need for FOX widescreen will be to just play with it, instead of trying to try to get it ready in advance... only problem is I don't think my wife will let me timeshift Survivor tonight, at least I'll be able to play with it for the baseball game tomorrow though, and then be prepared for 24 on Sunday night, too bad i'll have to watch The Sopranos in Non HD though (TWC needs to get the HD DVR out ASAP, scheduling around HD/Non HD is becoming harder and harder)

My Samsung T151 decodes a 30-2 as well but it always comes up with "No Signal"... TWC does not have the Digital subs in their system.

I too have a blank 30-2 subchannel that comes up on my SIR-T165 box.
The box says "No AV" when you tune to it.

I think I can indirectly squeeze a 16x9 stretch down to 4x3 with my equipment, to get around the stretch on 30-1. If the 165 box is set to 480i or 480p output it squeezes a 16x9 frame to 4x3, or the S-video outputs will do the same regardless of mode.
Option 2 in my case would be to change over to cable or WRGT analog OTA.

browerjs, if you are interested in a HD DVR, and don't mind switching to Direct TV (Satellite), this box is coming out within a month:

http://www.*********************/avsTC.htm

I admit it's a little pricey, but there is nothing else like it. It has 2 DirectTV tuners (SD and HD) and 2 OTA ATSC tuners. I got my pre-order in last month. But, I'm sure it won't be long before they sell for half that price.

-Bruce

Edited to reflect the AVS Forum special they are having w/ $50 gift certificate

Originally posted by browerjs
... too bad i'll have to watch The Sopranos in Non HD though (TWC needs to get the HD DVR out ASAP, scheduling around HD/Non HD is becoming harder and harder)

IIRC, HBO (and hence HBO HD), repeats the Sopranos on Wed. nights. (You are still right, I may want my own HD PVR whenever they release it...)

Originally posted by 1450kHz
I think I can indirectly squeeze a 16x9 stretch down to 4x3 with my equipment, to get around the stretch on 30-1. If the 165 box is set to 480i or 480p output it squeezes a 16x9 frame to 4x3, or the S-video outputs will do the same regardless of mode.


Yes, I can do the same thing with Zenith HDV420, I'm not sure how many boxes will let you do that. Given a 16x9 ATSC format is received if output at 480i from the STB -- although my Integrated HDTV won't let you do this... On it, I can only see it just exactly as they are sending it -- I can only stretch or crop zoom 4x3 to "fit" the 16x9 display if a 4x3 ATSC format is sent by the station.

The way it looks right now keep in mind ... YOU WON'T want to change(stretch/squeeze/etc) anything for what they send for Fox WS ... Fox WS+Fox programming should be sent in proper aspect ratio --- I.e. --- shouldn't appear "stretched" or squeezed by WRGT-DT, its just the local/Syndicated stuff(at least presently) you'd need to "squeeze" for proper aspect ratio. Of course, WRGT-DT(and all stations) should be sending properly formatted video in all cases, but, given the "anamorphic" nature of the "feed" from Fox+how RX C(used for Fox widescreen by the affiliates/etc), they might need more equipment(or do some manual switching of various settings on their aspect ratio converter or encoder, which might not be a great idea either) etc. to do so, and THAT might not make any sense at the present time for them to spend $ on it since Fox Will Be going 720p HD later this year, at which time this will no longer be an issue.

I have read on 100000 Watts (http://www.100000watts.com) that WDTN will be switching back to NBC. Does anyone know when this will happen? Will NBC 22 become ABC 22?

so is anyone else seeing what could be described as a "cropping" mistake on 30-1? I just watched the simpsons and on the right hand side of the screen the picture stops about three inches from the end of the display followed by the black frame mat and then an inch or so of the picture from the left side. I know this sound cofusing, and my digital camera is broken, so hopefully someone else here can confirm.

simulated pic i made with photoshop of my problem.

pic

Weird. I'm not getting that, everything is fine(except the 4x3 stretched to 16x9) on DTC-100 Internal to my RCA F38310 integrated HDTV, all is well(except the 4x3 stretched to 16x9 issue for local/syndicated WRGT programming) on the Zenith HDV420 EXCEPT if I send 480i or 480p from my HDV420 STB and ONLY if I use it's "cropped" Aspect ratio control mode, in which case I get WRGT way "off center" and on the LH side of screen only(top in below attached photo - Doesn't matter if I have display in "4x3 mode"(grey bars as shown here) or 16x9 Mode"(no sidebars added by display)/etc. .... However, if I use the "squeezed mode"(or Letterboxed" mode) from my STB(sent at 480i/480p as described by 1450khz earlier) all is well too (see below in attached photo).

Jbh613 - I'm not seeing it with my internal Mitsubishi HD tuner.

-Bruce

Originally posted by JunkyardDogg
I have read on 100000 Watts (http://www.100000watts.com) that WDTN will be switching back to NBC. Does anyone know when this will happen? Will NBC 22 become ABC 22?

Yes, WDTN will be switching to NBC, current info indicates this will happen in September 2004. We don't know about ABC yet, but as I noted in a post earlier today, one of the articles referenced in earlier threads indicated WKEF is in talks with ABC.

For more info, See previous posts in this thread concerning this issue, starting here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3474459#post3474459

well that is weird, I just rechecked and the alignment is still off for me(i wish my camera was working). It gets even stranger, since most sets cant change a 4x3 to 16x9 or vise versa, my set only allows me two aspect ratios on 30-1. Thats not a big deal since all 720p or 1080i sources need no stretching. The two modes are 16x9 standard and 16x9 zoom. Now the weirdest thing of all is when I switch to 16x9 zoom my set dispays all these weird colors and no pic at all. So I very quickly changed the channel to try to duplicate this and couldnt. On channels that are 1080i right now(51-1) when I use 16x9 zoom its fine. The only thing I can think that might be causing the trouble is that my set is "confused since the input is 480i, but in widescreen format. I am clueless on this one?

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
EXCEPT if I send 480i or 480p from my HDV420 STB and ONLY if I use it's "cropped" Aspect ratio control mode, in which case I get WRGT way "off center" and on the LH side of screen only


The pic on my set is pushed to the left also, it just pushes out the left side and the cropped image is displayed on the right side.

jbh613 --- Probably a longshot, but You might want to try rescanning channels, your set may be confused. IF that doesn't work, you should contact WRGT(there's a technical issues email address on their website) and tell them what's going on/what equipment you are using/etc.

I don't know which 16x9 ATSC format WRGT-DT is sending currently(I assume it is 480p 16x9, 720p 16x9 or 1080i 16x9) but it is NOT the same format they have been sending up until today which was 4x3 480i SD.

Since they were changing things around earlier today between 11am-12, Maybe a "reboot" of something at WRGT might take care of it, but it might be some sort of weird incompatability between a chipset used by some of their equipment and certian "modes" certian receivers/etc. are using as well -- Hard to say, but presently, the latter seems to be the case for my HDV420, and only with its "cropped" mode when sending 480i/480p from the box, which I luckily pretty much never use anyway.

Anyhow, at 8~8:25pm, aspect ratio for Fox programming is correctly formatted from WRGT-DT. I'm sending 1080i to my display currently+looking at it just as WRGT-DT is sending it w/o doing any squeezing/stretching or otherwise, and it looks good! Local ad inserts will be stretched to 16x9 during Fox programming, as will all local/Syndicated programming from WRGT as long as they've got things set for proper display of Fox WS and all Fox programming via what Fox calls "RX C" ...

---------------

Tru Calling in Fox WS at 8:31PM on WRGT-DT! Looks good here, Woohoo! Fox WS has finally made it to Dayton !

your lucky, my set says that it is receiving a 480i signal not a 480p.With my set when it receives a 480i DTV signal it can display it as only 480i,compared to a 720p which can be converted to 1080i. I did try a rescan of channels and it didnt help. To be honest I really dont see a difference in PQ at all on 30-1 compared to before, it still looks the same as 26-1. even with Tru Calling on. I did nitice when it went to certain commercials I am gettin the pic sent to th LH side of the screen like your top pic from above.

Looks real good!

Comparing video right now....

I do notice that the sound is louder and more lively on WXIX. Interesting thing is that the Dolby decoder on my receiver shows WRGT sending me a left, right, and surround channel, while WXIX is sending left and right only.

I'm not sure if the volume thing is a function of my receiver, as the volume on it varies based on the mode (I generally have to crank up DD 5.1 sources).

Looks good, but isn't it supposed to be 480p? I'm getting 480i... Also on the non HD cable box, the picture is squished into a 4:3

Obviously there are stil quite a few bugs they need to iron out here. And yes,browerjs, my set too says 480i, I thought 480i couldnt be WS?

I don't think I've ever seen it sent by a station, but 480i can be widescreen. 480i 16x9 is a ATSC format which can be sent by stations. So, it is possible that WRGT-DT could be sending 480i 16x9. Fox Sends Fox Widescreen as 480i Anamorphic to the affiliates in fact(not as a ATSC format though), stations which send it out as 480p are deinterlacing first.

Anyhow, However, a lot of this equipment can't really tell you what is actually being sent by the station, it might just be "old info" it's getting from WRGT's old setup or some descriptor "tag" info or something. Some PC tuner cards can, however report accurate info, otherwise, Just because it says it is 480i doesn't necessarily mean that is what is being sent by the station, but certianly that could be the case. Anyhow, I asked Roland what ATSC format they are sending, I'll post what I hear back.

Here is a table showing all the different ATSC formats which stations can send:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html

Except for the issue with "cropped mode" and my STB, I'm not seeing any bugs here. It of course looks better than this screenshot via Digital camera of course, but Attached is a screenshot of what I'm currently getting here from WRGT-DT+Fox WS during Tru calling. I'm not doing anything but looking at it, upconverted to 1080i by my STB, but otherwise it's exactly as they are sending it -- In fact, I can't change anything If I wanted to with a 16x9 ATSC format if I send 1080i from my STB.

I have no idea what the format is. All I get is the "HD" or "SD" flag in the info at the top of the screen, and I think that is not program format related but instead something that the station sets in the PSIP info.

Yeah, me either.

All I know is that it is a 16x9 ATSC format being sent by WRGT-DT, starting today ... I Can't tell which one ... And that prior to today(back to the first day they came on air 5/1/02), it was allways a 4x3 ATSC format they were sending .... I know it was 480i 4x3 because thats what they told me! There are no 720p or 1080i 4x3 ATSC formats, only 480i+480p 4x3 ...

Anyhoo, Station ID via PSIP if I have the PSIP stuff turned on is all I get ... WKEF-HD, WKEF-SD/etc, and of course that doesn't really mean anything either unless they "give it" the right name ....

If I were to take a WAG(which of course means nothing, but it's fun to try to guess :-) based on what it looks like+how I know my equipment handles upconversion to 1080i,(hard to say though, it would be easier if the content was HD), I'd guess that it is being sent by WRGT-DT presently at either 480p or 720p ... I Could be wrong of course, and it could be 480i 16x9, but it just doesn't quite look like it to me, especially where the local content is concerned ...

Jeff, is your display larger than say 36", because I've always found it hard to do PQ comparisons on sets<36". For me on my 57" everything I saw tonight on fox looked like 480i. ON my set I can split the screen and freeze frame for coparisons, and when I freeze framed 30-1 on Tru Calling and compared it to 26-1 it looked the same. I next compared it to ABC(720p) and the ABC feed looked far superior, and that was only at around 27" or so.(my tv split in half with side by side images)

On a side note, The Simpsons show was in 4x3 and was pushed to the left side with double black bars on the right. I did think that the PQ was better than the simpsons that aired earlier,possibly due to age of recording though.

First off, I don't believe I commented on any PQ comparsions tonight -- I quickly switched between WXIX-DT and WRGT-DT, but I don't believe I commented on it. I did however take a WAG concerning which ATSC format WRGT-DT might be sending, and commented on WRGT analog vs. DT earlier in response to another poster.

As for screen size, to answer your question, except in bright showrooms with the displays set with "torch mode" contrast/brightness settings and/or poorly calibrated displays in general, I don't have any problems doing HD PQ comparisons on 38" sets(I have one of these - 38" direct View), 26" sets(I have one of these - 26" direct view - for reasons not related to screen size, it isn't the best HD display out there), 17" PC monitors(I have one(well more than one and larger) of these although I no longer use it for HD), 57" or 42" plasmas or 42" or 57" RPTV's, although from 10' away it's quite difficult to tell the difference between Fox WS and HD on a 17" 4x3 PC monitor, and compression artifacts aren't as much of a problem the smaller the screen+the more distant you are .....

The only time I've ever seen 480i really "look like" 480i is if it is being fed to a display that natively displays 480i.

As for what Fox WS "looks like", I've been watching it from WXIX-DT for 2 and a half years now(when they do it right that is), I think I have a pretty good idea concerning what it looks like -- For the most part, IMO, it's pretty much the same as "anamorphic DVD" quality via compoent video, which can look good at 480i or 480p via component video.

OF course 720p looks "far superior"(IMO at least) to Fox Widescreen(or DVD), it would if WRGT-DT was upconverting Fox WS and sending 720p or 1080i !The actual source resolution of the programming(as sent by fox) is 480i "anamorphic"(just like a widescreen "anamoprhic DVD" which could be played at 480i or 480p depending upon the DVD player), upconverting it to "whatever" isn't really going to change that to a large degree, or miraculously make it "HD quality" or anywhere near it. Which is why it's great that Fox is switching to 720p HD later this year.

I used to use a 17" PC monitor for HD, and could tell quite a difference between Fox WS(upconverted to 1080i by WXIX) and HD from ABC or CBS or whatever from 5 feet away! Fox WS quality is pretty much the same as DVD quality, whether it is sent by the station as 480i 16x9, 480p 16x9, unconverted to 720p or 1080i/etc.

I think WBDT-DT certianly usually has good SD PQ quality -- not quite as good as WSTR-DT WB Cincy though which is 480i 4x3 SD too, and IMO WSTR-DT probably has the best SD quality in our area for much of their programming .. I wouldn't say there is a HUGE difference, generally speaking between SD quality on WBDT-DT and Fox Widescreen. ... they are BOTH using source programming with a "Rez" of 480i. The biggest potential difference would involve any letterboxed material on WBDT-DT,(16x9 letterboxed inside a 4x3 frame) which would have quite a bit less resolution than Fox Widescreen aired on WRGT-DT, even if it was just 480i 16x9 SD format that was used.

Keep in mind, DVD is 480i NTSC video(uses MPEG II also, just as ATSC DTV/HD does)! Depending upon how it is done, ATSC SD(16x9 or 4x3) via DTV can be as good(even better probably) as DVD no matter what it is "upconverted" to, and "pristine" NTSC OTA reception even comes close to DVD quality as well(but analog NTSC OTA is limited by composite video and analog transmission/reception artifacts/etc/etc).

When doing PQ comparisons, keep in mind, there are quite a number of factors involved, such as what resolutions your display supports natively, the upconversions involved/etc, factors involving the source material as well(such as the transfer from film, film stock used, techniques used during production to get a certian "look" to a show or commercial/etc/etc/etc/ and even in some cases your display type(RPTV, CRT, LCD, plasma/etc/etc/etc.) .

All of this stuff involving "perceived PQ" is often very "subjective" of course and everyone will have their own opinion --- but to my eyes, "Tru calling" seems generally to be a little on the soft side. I like the look of "O.C" but it's got a certian sort of "look" to it as well(Last I heard, it is shot on 16mm film BTW, as is "scrubs" from NBC).

Fox Calls "Fox Widescreen" "ED" or Enhanced definition --- And, I suppose that's a good thing to call it, if you'd call a Anamorphic DVD "ED" as opposed to "SD" ... BUT ... based on the resolution of it, I don't think it is really wrong to call it "SD" either ..

Jeff, its hard to get subtleties through typing, but I wasn't trying to take anything away from your obvious extensive knowledge on anything related to television displays and OTA reception etc.. You nailed it when you said PQ is always subjective.

Maybe my display is set up completely wrong, or maybe I'm just an idiot, but in my opinion all the local SD channels look really bad, compared to a dvd fed to my tv via component at 480p. I still believe it is directly related to the screen size, because on my bedroom set(25" Sony wega) everything,including OTA NTSC video looks just about the same. So I really do agree with your above statement that there are multiple factors in determining overall PQ. I guess we will all be happy in 2006 when everything we see is in HD, because all of us here know that will happen.

I guess we will all be happy in 2006 when everything we see is in HD, because all of us here know that will happen.

Heheheheheheh :p

You're not crazy....I use a DLP type projection setup (image is about 5 feet horizontally) and my SD cable doesn't look very good on it either. I'm using my DTV box to upconvert to 480p (or 720p if I can stand the stretching) and send over component....when I was sending 480i over composite from a VCR tuner it looked horrid.

However, my other set is a 20" TV and SD looks just fine on it.

I think it was 480i because my television tells me what signal it is receiving, for example, if I'm watching Cable channel 707(WHIO) it tells me it's 1080i, if i'm watching MSNBC it tells me it's 480i, if i'm watching a dvd it tells me 480p. I have my Cable Box to output 480i, 480p, and 1080i. During Tru Calling it told me that 480i was coming through.

When i checked out 30-1 with my OTA receiver, which can only output 1 format without manually switching on the back, it was obviously upconverted to 1080i. However, when i was watching with the upconversion it didn't look nearly as good as cable because there was a decent amout of "blocking" (probably my STB though). I guess we'll have to wait till Roland tells us what's being sent, hopefully they'll start doing upconversion to 1080i or 720p at the station level, cause i'm sure the upconvert on that level will look better then at the STB level.

On the screen size+SD issue ...

Yes, I would agree that the larger the screen size, the worse that SD looks. I would also agree that in general, DVD(via component video-- 480i or p) is probably going to look better most, if not all of the time than what you get from the SD locals -- Lots of issues involved there -- but OTA SD DTV(at 480i via component connections) CAN and sometimes does(or at least it should - alhtough again -- upconversion by the user's equipment among other things can be an issue here) look just as good, or at least "almost" just as good as DVD, regardless of screen size --- Except for the "Real time" MPEGII encoding involved -- "Fox widescreen" for example, is EXACTLY the same resolution as a "anamorphic" DVD - It even has the extra added benefit of improved color from ATSC vs NTSC Video(DVD uses NTSC). Although there is quite a bit of "variation" in how different shows/etc look(the live stuff in Fox Widescreen especially doesn't look as good).

Widescreen, "anamoprhic DVD" quality is pretty much what I see from Fox Widescreen+WXIX-DT ... I really didn't pay much attention to the PQ last night from WRGT-DT, but I took a quick look, and it didn't look much different to me last night on WRGT-DT(upconverted to 1080i by my STB) than it did on WXIX-DT(they do upconvert to 1080i at the station) -- Might have perhaps looked a little softer from WRGT-DT, but again, I didn't look at it very closely.

I was trying to make "in the ballpark" comparisons in my last post concerning different SD sources ... Basically based on resolution -- Certianly, there is a lot of variation in SD quality for a lot of reasons, sometimes even from say, the SAME station on any given day.

----------------------------------

On the issue of which ATSC Format WRGT-DT is using ... Does anyone have a PC tuner card out there that can analyze the datastream and tell us what they are sending OTA ?

On the issue of which ATSC Format WRGT-DT is using ... Does anyone have a PC tuner card out there that can analyze the datastream and tell us what they are sending OTA ?

Not I, said the 1450kHz..

I'm still curious about the audio formats between WXIX and WRGT DT stations. My receiver has a Dolby Digital decoder in it which gives you a display that looks like this to tell you what format and how many channels are coming through.

DD Pro Logic
DD Digital
_ L C R
_SL S SR
___LFE


When watching WXIX, "Pro Logic", "L" and "R" blocks light up, indicating that I'm getting a 2-channel stream. However, on WRGT I see "Pro Logic", "L", "R", and "S" blocks, indicating (to me, anyway) that they are sending a discrete surround channel as opposed to my receiver matrix decoding it from the 2-channel stream. My main question is does this indicate they might also have the capability to send me DD 5.1? I know WDTN also showed this "2 + surround" mode when they were in local breaks during MNF.

I guess I'll have to check out the Sox vs. Yankees game tonight on Fox and see if it goes 5.1 or not....I think Fox sends live widescreen events in 5.1. When watching a DVD or live stuff that goes 5.1 my indicators will change to "Digital" and then the "L, C, R, SL, SR, LFE" lights come on.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
I think Fox sends live widescreen events in 5.1.

I've heard they sometimes do DD 5.1, but not allways. WXIX-DT can't pass DD 5.1 yet. I have also heard that the system Fox will be installing at the affilates for HD over the spring/summer will pass through DD 5.1.

Interesting concerning what you're getting from your DD decoder from WRGT-DT -- Mine doesn't show the channels --- I can only tell whether or not it's DD 5.1. Although Its been a while since I've paid attention I have seen WCET-DT "send" DD 5.1 format, although the audio present is just 2 channel as it wasn't produced in DD 5.1.

If DD 5.1 isn't sent, my decoder indicates uses Prologic(unless I have it set to just send 2 channel stereo), in which case I had assumed(perhaps incorrectly) it was DD 2.0 being sent OTA DTV stations. With WDTN-DT, the indicators switch between what I see for DD 5.1(during the ABC HD programming+Nati'l commercials) and Prologic during local breaks.

So, as you say, We'll have to check it out and see what happens. I don't want to "pester them" too much, as I know they are busy will FOUR stations to run(WKEF/WRGT analogs/digitals) ... I'd hate to have that utility bill for FOUR UHF stations ...

--------------------------------------

Another thought I had which might concern whatever ATSC format WRGT-DT is sending ... this is just speculation of course which involves some consideration concerning Fox's HD system which they are going to implement -- Their "Splicer system" will be sending 720p HD from Fox ....The HD from FOX doesn't even need a HD encoder at the station -- It will be sent as 720p 16x9 ATSC format by Fox .... BUT the affiliate does need a HD capable encoder as well as a upconverter(Fox is taking care of everything else, including the installation of the necessary equipment at the affiliates) to upconvert their local/syndicated SD programming to 720p ...

Also considering what Roland had told us in his posts here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3349643#post334964
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3363483#post3363483 http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3330024#post3330024

They should have the equipment necessary to accomodate Fox's HD Splicer system when it is installed by Fox(actually Thompson is doing the work at the affiliates) sometime between now and the next 4-6 months or so probably.

Again -- just speculating, and I suppose many issues might explain why they might be using a different ATSC format presently --- but I had thought it most likely that they'd be upconverting the Fox WS+local stuff to 720p until Fox starts doing HD. Also, In addition to Roland's comments, WRGT-DT has been listed as "HD-ready" on Sinclair's website for quite some time. Who knows, but I doubt they would have been on this list(long before they started sending anything other than 4x3 SD, or before Fox announced their upcoming HD system+the details involved) if they didn't have a HD capable encoder :

http://www.sbgi.net/business/markets/dayton.shtml

I do know that, even though it isn't on their "HD ready" list, WTTE-DT, Fox Columbus(also operated by Sinclair via LMA, just like WRGT is) Has been passing through Fox widescreen for quite some time... One of their Engineers has posted info about it on the Columbus forum. If I recall correctly, at first, they were using 480i 16x9 format(If I remember right, that was the "best" the encoder they had at first could do), and I'm not sure, but I think they might be doing 480p now, but again -- Not sure. The HD columbus site seems to be down currently, so I'm just relying on my probably foggy memory ...

1450, on my receiver, (sony str de-985)all the fox shows last night came up as a prologic sound field , which does go along with what you are saying. Hopefully they will be able to send a DD5.1 though, any staiton that does this is a plus for surround users.


Jeff, I looked on WRGT's site and couldnt find a good contact to let them know about the issues I'm having still with the image beind left of center. Do you have a phone number or email?

I currently have a Pioneer VSX-D508 receiver, which is generous with its feedback via the display.
The display has audio format (Analog, Digital, AC-3, MPEG), Pro-Logic or Dolby Digital, and the channels active display that I described before.

I'm thinking of replacing it with one that does DTS 6.1 (mine is an older receiver that does not handle DTS) but I've decided to wait to upgrade my sound until I move to a non-apartment setting where I can use it to its full potential without getting the neighbors mad at me.

Anyway, here are the sound formats I've seen locally:
WDTN: Digital 5.1, Pro-Logic (Left+Right+Surround indicators on).
WHIO: Pro-Logic (L+R indicators on).
WKEF: Pro-Logic (L+R+S).
WRGT: Pro-Logic (L+R+S).
WPTD: Pro-Logic (L+R??), Digital 5.1

All my out of town stuff from Cincy has been 2.0 I think except for WCET.
WBNS sends DD5.1 when CBS does. I think 5.1 may be coming soon to WCMH since NBC tested a DD5.1 mix on their NYC station.

I don't know what to call the format I get from WDTN/WKEF/WRGT since my receiver seems to indicate they are sending me a discrete surround channel. DD 2 + 1? :)

Originally posted by jbh613
Jeff, I looked on WRGT's site and couldnt find a good contact to let them know about the issues I'm having still with the image beind left of center. Do you have a phone number or email?

WKEF/WRGT Phone # is listed at following link on their website(in the Station info section) -- Or Click on "Contact NBC22/Fox 45" at this link :

http://www.wkef22.com/dayton_oh/station/index.shtml

And you'll get a form with which you can fill out+address to intended party ... Under "please send my email to", use the drop down box to select "Technical/Engineering".

------------------------------

I just sent Roland a email yesterday concerning my thoughts/etc on the local syndicated stuff being strecthed to 16x9, Next time I talk to him (if they haven't corrected it by then) I'll also tell him about how I'm getting the issue which you seem to be having as well ... I'll also try to mention the issue you're experiencing as best I can ...

Again though, I'm just getting it on one receiver here(HDV420, No problems with DTC-100 with this issue), and ONLY if I send 480i or 480p from the STB, and ONLY if I use it's "cropped" image manipulation mode -- Other than that, it's fine if I use any other setting available to me to manipulate aspect ratio(even if I send 480i/480p from the reciever), or if I send 720p or 1080i from the receiver .... What the "cropped" mode from this receiver(Zenith HDV420) - Basically - it is used when sending 480i/p from the box(only when a 16x9 ATSC format is sent by the station) to "crop out" the 4x3 area when a 16x9 ATSC format is being sent, so the 4x3 fills a 4x3 display ... Which of course I don't use anyway ...

So --- A question I'm a little unclear on concerning your situation... Are you getting the centering problem(left of center) no matter what, or only when you use certian "settings"/etc?

BTW --- I also have a "old fashioned" 4x3 TV hooked up to a SVHS VCR via the VCR's RF out jack --- this VCR is also hooked up to the HDV420 via S-Video (and my HD display via S-video) ... And -- As I pretty much figured, the problem isn't something "weird" with the display circutry, as it's happening(again, only with the "cropped mode" described above) with this "old fashioned" TV(it's actually a 1986 GE model -- even has Has "click stop knobs" to change the channels, probably one of the last TV's made with seperate mechanical VHF/UHF tuner) ...

to answer your question, I get the left of center when my tv displays the image as 16x9 standard, which happens to be its native format. See since my STB is integrated into my set I am not able to select different output resolutions, and my set can do whats called a "virtual hd" in which it converts the image to a 1080i picture. I posted this earlier, but it got overlooked, but the strangest thing of all is when I do use the other aspect ratio available(when displaying a dtv signal I only have 2 aspect modes for a 16x9 source,standard and16x9 zoom) 16x9 zoom, I got strange bars of color and no pic at all. Now thats the strange part. I checked and the only station that I have this problem with is wrgt, so I really cant think its my set not working right.

Sox vs. the Evil Empire is on in WS on both WXIX and WRGT DT's.

Volume level of the net stuff is too low on WRGT. Local spots about blew my speakers out.

Showing DD 2.0/Prologic from my DD decoder from WRGT-DT --- of course could be DD 2+1 though ;-)

PQ wise -- I can't tell much of a difference between WXIX-DT+WRGT-DT ... Maybe a tad more "contrast" on WXIX-DT -- and Maybe a tad bit sharper on WXIX-DT. Checked both displays here ... output at 1080i from STB for the Samsung display --- On the RCA Display(internal STB) -- It's 1080i of course for WXIX-DT ... IF WRGT-DT were sending 480i 16x9 it would be upconverted to 540p, any other 16x9 ATSC format would be Upconverted to 1080i. It certianly doesn't look what I'm used to it's 540p upconversion looking like ....

jbh613,

You know, I know I've seen this problem we are discussing mentioned elsewhere at some point and time ... I just can't recall where+what station was involved(I do remember it wasn't in Dayton or Cincy), and I can't recall enough details to comment much ....

I'm certianly not saying there is something wrong with your set. Could be a number of possible issues involved. Hopefully, they'll be able to "reboot" something+It'll fix the problem. Who knows. One possibility I could think of, would be that it could be possible that there is some sort of incompatibility involving something in your set(and something in My HDV420 receiver as well - specifically where it is concerned for it's 480i/p "cropped mode" --- say, software/firmware a chip is using), and something used by a piece of equipment at WRGT(such as a chip, or the firmware it's using). Since WRGT can't buy every receiver+integrated set out there+test it out, our input could be useful to them.

It will be interesting to see if anyone else experiences the problem.

I didn't overlook the info in your previous posts. I just didn't fully understand what you were(are) saying, because you are using terminology specific to your set/the manufacturer. I think I've got the jist of it now, though.

I think you're saying, WRGT-DT is "messed up"(video shifted to left/etc) no matter what you do. This, I can mention+pass along when describing the problem I'm seeing with "crop mode"+WRGT-DT for my receiver(I've never seen that happen anywhere else besides WRGT-DT either), along with the make/model of your integrated set ...

I'd think what you are calling "virtual HD" does the same thing when we say we are sending 1080i from our STB's -- Which of course upconverts anything that is not already sent as 1080i by the station to 1080i.

16x9 is the native display format for ANY 16x9 display. I think what you are calling 16x9 Standard is the same thing my Samsung HD display calls "Wide mode", and my RCA HD display(F38310 -- as mentioned before, it's a Integrated display as well-- A RCA DTC-100 is "inside" the Set) calls "Full Mode".

With my F38310 --- As mentioned before --- From the internal STB(nothing I can do about this either) -- 480p+720p is Upconverted to 1080i, 1080i is displayed natively(via internal STB or a external device hooked to the component inputs), 480p is displayed natively from the component input(I have a progressive scan DVD player hooked to it) -- EVERYTHING else is upconverted to 540p. I can't change anything concerning the resolution on the F38310 -- It does what it does as just described ...

On the F38310, I can't change anything where aspect ratio(zoom/crop or stretch/etc)is concerned IF it's receiving a 16x9 ATSC format from the station(or 480p from DVD player/etc via component input) ---

When it's a 16x9 ATSC format being received, on the F38310 I can only see the aspect ratio of the video exactly as it is formatted and sent by the station. -- For example -- Fox Widescreen is in proper aspect ratio from WRGT-DT, but it's currently 4x3 Stretched to 16x9 for WRGT-DT local/Syndicated programming. Nothing I can do about the latter on the F38310 -- But I can "fix it"/Squeeze it" on my other setup.

When F38310 is receiving a 4x3 source signal however(ATSC/etc), I can either use it's "Full Mode"(its native mode) -- Which streches the 4x3 to fill 16x9(makes for wide fat people -- Say from 26-1, unless it's from a "anamoprhic" source -- In that case, then it is proper aspect ratio) -- Or I can use its "fill" mode(which Zooms/crops the 4x3 to fit 16x9 --It Cuts off top and bottom so the rest of the frame "fits" 16x9+proper aspect ratio is maintained), or I can "squeeze" the 4x3 video into a proper 4x3 frame by using its "normal" mode, which ads Grey bars on the side to "squeeze in" the video to how it is being sent by the station ....

Virtually all Consumer HD displays out there will only display a couple of resolutions, as they generally will only support certian scanning rates -- unlike most PC monitors, which will support a wide variety of scan/refresh rates -- For my Samsung display -- It will only display 480p+1080i, For my RCA display, it will Only display 1080i, 480p, and 540p. Most plasma displays do 480p/720p - Not 1080i. Everything else has to be converted to the "resolution" the display will support -- This is done Either by a STB OR the Display's circutry. In the case of my Samsung display for instance -- A progressive scan DVD player vs. DVD via component video at 480i doens't really improve PQ that I can tell, as the display does just as good of a job converting 480i(from Component video input) to 480p which it has to do, as it can display 480p, but it can't display 480i natively(nor can it display 720p natively) ....

I know I'm probably telling you stuff you already know -- But what I'm trying to illustrate here is that, I think it's best that we try as much as possible to use "standard" terms (with descriptions when necessary) to talk about this stuff ... For instance, If I told you I'm using "Wide" Picture size, or "zoom1" or "zoom2", you probably wouldn't have any idea concerning what I was talking about unless you have a Samsung TXN Display.

you are right, and I'm sorry for using brand-specific terminology. So to try and explain my major problem more specifically: While watching WRGT DTV, my set, like one of the setups you mentioned having, allows me two aspect ratios. The first is "16x9 standard", which is the format that fills the screen without any cropping. The other aspect is "16x9 zoom" which is for programs that are filmed in 4x3 and upconverted with black bars on the side and the zoom allows you to remove the black bars with a slite cropping of the top and bottom.

Hopefully you are with me up to here. So I usually use the "16x9 standard" mode for watching all the DTV stations, save wb which is in a 4x3 aspect. So since fox did the "switch" I am still seeing the left of center cropping bug,but stranger than that is when I use the "16x9 zoom" aspect on my set I get no visible pic. It is just lines of various colors that randomly change if I flip back and forth through stations. Again the only time I have ever seen this happen is on WRGT's new format since they switched. Every other station can handle my"16x9 zoom" aspect.

Ok so now I hope that I have cleared that up, and maybe I can cut and paste this message to WRGT ;)

jbh613,

I'd think That ought to work to send to them, with a little rewording of the first sentence -- Also, Be sure to include the make/model of your equipment(good idea to note that it's using a internal Receiver+you're getting WRGT DTV Over-the air too) --- You might want to mention as well that it happens for Fox programming, as well as WRGT local/syndicated programming, given the "nature" of that issue(which of course you can't even get the "gist of" given what you're seeing) ... So those 2 issues hopefully don't, potentially get confused ...

------------------

All --

Just noticed that at 10:35pm -- WHIO-DT is off air. This is the first time since last night I've tuned to them, so don't know how long they've been down.

Everytime they go down, I have this unrealistic hope that when they come back up, all there will be is 41-1 with all possible bandwidth allocated to it<g>

I'm getting WRGT DT through Time Warner Cable and when I tuned in the baseball game last night, the picture was sqeezed into a 4x3 space. Then when it went to commercials, it was squeezed into an even smaller space.

This morning, the 4x3 material is still squeezed into a space narrower than 4x3. My TV is set (locked in) to the mode which horizontally stretches 16x9 enhanced content (DVDs) so there's nothing on the TV to change. I don't see any settings on the HD cable box either.

Anyone else on TWC not getting the 16x9 picture filling their screen? I've got the Scientific Atlanta box, FYI.

Vader,

Interesting. Currently from WRGT-DT All the Fox programming is properly formatted OTA (4x3 is 4x3, 16x9 is 16x9) -- Local/Syndicated programming however is 4x3 stretched to 16x9.

I'd guess that when Local/Syndicated programming airs on TW from WRGT, you will see it properly formatted(as 4x3)+ as you noted, all the Fox programming will be squeezed(16x9 squeezed into 4x3 area, 4x3 squeezed into a approx 3x3 area)

Seems odd that it's different via TW, as In just about all cases, the station sends the Cableco the same thing as they send OTA. I'd guess(just guessing - there could be other reasons too) that for some odd reason, either the Box can't handle the 16x9 format WRGT-DT is sending correctly, although I suppose it's possible TW's system is "squishing it" and sending it in a 4x3 format.

If your TV is stretching as you mentioned, I would have thought you should be seeing it like we are OTA - are you sure your TV is doing that "stretching" when you are tuned to WRGT-DT? -- Most sets can only stretch like that when certian formats are being sent to it. Such as "anamorphic" DVD(also called "16x9 NTSC video" or "enhanced for 16x9 TV's) or 480i/480p/etc -- Of course, how your equipment's (such as DVD player) is set (i.e.: "set for 4x3" or "set for 16x9" monitor settings/etc) would have an effect well.

--------------------------------------------------

When I'm using the HD cable box, my TV (Panasonic) locks in to FULL mode, so I can't change that.

I'd guess that when Local/Syndicated programming airs on TW from WRGT, you will see it properly formatted(as 4x3)+ as you noted, all the Fox programming will be squeezed(16x9 squeezed into 4x3 area, 4x3 squeezed into a approx 3x3 area)

Yes, this is what is happening.

Right now, if I watch WRGT DT through the HD cable box, what should be 4x3 programming is showing at maybe 3x3. When the 16x9 material comes on, it displays in 4x3. So the different ratios are being received from WRGT, but it never gets wider than 4x3.

I understand that you can't change it, and I could be wrong but given what you are seeing, I doubt your TV is stretching whatever format you're getting sent from WRGT-DT from via the TW box -- I don't know which 16x9 format WRGT is sending, but --- For instance, with 720p+1080i if sent by the station(and usually by the STB too if a 16x9 format is being sent) it can't be stretched by ANY set I know of ... You wouldn't want to stretch it, as 720p/1080i(any HD format) are 16x9 formats with "square pixels" that fill a 16x9 screen(black bars on the side of 4x3 programming of course) ... Of course, how the station(or potentially the provider I suppose) formats the aspect ratio of the video inside that format(or whatever format they are using) to send it to you is another story.

In many cases if this were happening with a lot of the STB's(OTA stb's anyway) out there, you could send 480i or 480p from the box+you'd have a setting that would allow you to stretch it out -- either on the STB or the display.

In any event, I'll be glad when Fox Goes HD instead of sending Fox WS "anamorphically" to the affiliates(601 Video -- or 16x9 NTSC video are other ways of saying it) so these sorts of things with Fox affiliates and "weirdscreen" should no longer be an issue ;-) IF you only knew what Doc and I went through with WXIX on this issues ..... I don't want to go through all that again ....

Thanks for the insight Jeff.

I just got off the telephone with a TWC rep and she was actually helpful. She seemed to understand the issue. Anyway, she said I need to swap out for their newer Pioneer 3510 box because it allows you to select the stretch mode from the box. The Scientific Atlanta box I currently have does not. Hopefully, this will take care of it.

Vader,

That's good news that they know something about what's going on. If it helps, I'm not sure what box he is using, but If I understand correctly from browerjs's previous posts, I believe it is working "ok" for him from TW with the HD box he is using.

Yeah, I'm hoping to hear what box browerjs is using.

So often if I call TWC, they are clueless about HD, aspect ratios, etc. that it was refreshing to talk to someone who understood it all.

If I switch the output on my Zenith HDV420 to 480p, I see the problem with WRGT, but I can correct it by switching the zoom mode. Strange!! The right third of the picture is black--the image is squeezed in the left two thirds of the screen. When I'm outputting 1080i, everything looks correct.

Paul

Paul,

Yep, (I posted a pic in an earlier post) -- it Just happens on the HDV420 with the "cropped" setting at 480i/p.

All,

PGA Golf in HD on WKRC-DT at 3:10pm --- SD upconvert on WHIO-DT ...

I use the pioneer box...

It looks like WHIO isn't sending HD for the golf today, time to make a call... What is CBS cincy doing?

WHIO-DT just switched to HD at 3:18pm ...

Made the call and it's now switched to HD on WHIO

Glad to hear the Pioneer box is working for you browerjs. I'm supposed to swap my current HD out for the Pioneer on Monday.

WXIX-DT in Weirdscreen mode(Fox 16x9 being sent as squeezed to 4x3, Fox 4x3 being sent as squeezed to ~3x3) last night for Mad-TV+ for Nascar So far today(probably for Fox News Sunday too, but I didn't check it) ...

After 2+ years of messing with 'xix on this issue, It is so great to be able to tune to WRGT-DT and have Fox Widescreen formatted correctly!(Why? Because I can't do anything about WXIX-DT's weirdscreen on one setup here (RCA F38310 Integrated HDTV -- Can only see it just like they send it on it --- I have to downconvert the WXIX 1080i to 480i/p to do anything about it on the other receiver/setup - And of course its still a pain since you never know what they are going to be sending "weirdscreen" or widescreen/etc) ---- Anyhow --- I hope Fox programming stays properly formatted on WRGT-DT ...

Update 1:25pm : Doc must've called them, WXIX-DT switched to properly formatted Widescreen sometime in last few minutes ...

WXIX-DT. Weirdscreen fixed within a minute of my call.

By the way, WXIX-DT's number is 513-421-0119. Please.. someone else blow in a call next time you see weirdscreen. Thanks.

Doc

What's their Toll Free or Dayton Number? ;-) .... It would be nice if more folks in the Cincy local calling area could help Doc out a little with this issue .....

I was thinking, I should probably note ... I wasn't trying to diss WXIX in my last post ...I wouldn't have been able to see any Fox Widescreen in the last 2+ years without them. But, given the weirdscreen "issue" with them, I must admit I am certianly glad to see(at least currently the way they have things "set" so far) that I can pretty much expect to receive Fox/Fox Widescreen in correct aspect ratio from WRGT-DT, and I hope that remains to be the case ..

I certianly think it's a great idea for EVERYONE watching HD or Fox widescreen to contact every station they watch (at least once)+let them know we are watching ... It seems to be the only way(right now anyway) they know we are watching HD or Fox Widescreen from their DTV station ... I've called the Dayton Stations several times when they've missed HD over the past 2+ years, but I don't call Cincy stations as its a toll call --- I have told the Cincy stations this, and also that I'm still out here watching and that I notice when things go wrong even though I don't call .... Since they answered my correspondance(well, except WSTR), seems like they know I+my family are out here watching ....

At least we've come a long way from when we used to sometimes be told "Just watch the analog station" .....

For fun, I just searched through my messages to+from WXIX and Fox personel. I keep this stuff as some of it might be fun to look back on it in 10 years(or whatever) for nostalgia's sake .... I noticed there are 82 of those messages since 3/02(although I think I accidently deleted a few before I saved them), just about all of them I sent were answered(some didn't require an answer), and every response was well composed+ was polite+respectful.(just as hopefully my messages were).

I've discussed WXIX-DT+the weirdscreen issue(several times over the past 2.5 years) with WXIX GM, their CE, their technical operations manager, their PD, Fox's Director of Operations(Dave Loud in mid-2002). Dave also forwarded our conversations to Andy Setos at Fox -- I enjoyed my correspondance with all those folks - a great bunch ...

Anyhow --- I noticed the last comment I sent to WXIX folks involved commending them for doing a fine job of sending Fox widescreen for 2 weeks straight(at least when I had a chance to look) in the not too distant past ... Those are the sorts of comments I especially enjoy sending(when I know someone will read them anyway) ....

In case it helps anyone understand the aspect ratio formatting issues for Fox digital affiliates ... follows is one of the best explanations I received concern the aspect ratio formatting issue in WXIX's specific case -- from WXIX's Technical operations manager. This is from late last summer --- I could be wrong, but I don't think the situation as he described it has changed --- And I also, personally don't think it makes any sense for them to spend $ at this point to try to automate, or "fix" the problem issue, since I wouldn't think this particular issue will be an issue once they they start doing HD later this year ....I have made a suggestion(several times in fact) to them that they just leave things set for proper display/formatting of Fox programming(which of course results in the 4x3 local/syndicated programming being stretched to 16x9), just as WRGT-DT is doing presently. Anyhow -- Here's the response mentioned above, I left out the personal contact info :

Jeff,

I am responding to the DTV aspect ratio concerns you raised in your recent email to our General Manager John Long. First let me say that I thank you for bringing this problem to our attention. I can assure you this problem has nothing to do with caring more about cable carriage, or any other business issue for that matter. It has everything to do with a technical issue regarding how we receive identical Fox network programming in two different formats, one 4:3 for the analog station, and one 16:9 for the digital station, and how we get those formats on two different stations with one control room. I will not make any excuses... we have not yet been able to find a full proof way to switch aspect ratios on our digital channel 29 between 4:3 when all non network programming is on, and 16:9 when Fox is on.... since we use the same single control room switcher for both stations. Complicating the problem is that because of this single program source with multiple aspect ratios, to correct the ratio on the DTV side requires a control room operator to go to a different room and manually switch the output ratio on the DTV path at the beginning and end of network programming. As with any human interface, it is never full proof, and if he forgets, or if the equipment is acting up, the result on the DTV side will be the narrow display you see. I know our Chief Engineer Paul Smith had been working on this issue in the past, and for awhile we had the problem solved -- only to have it resurface again. Paul is currently on vacation for the next few weeks, but I will forward your concerns to him and discuss any possible new fixes with him when he returns. Since when I cover the control room, I'm the one who has to remember to go around the corner and switch the DTV aspect ratio, nothing would please me more than having this issue resolved for BOTH of our sakes.....

Again, thanks for your concerns...

Regards,

Joe Luebbe
Technical Operations Manager
WXIX-TV
635 West 7th Street
Cincinnati, OH. 45203

:End quote

You must have better luck than me....or know the right people. :D

I've tried dropping correspondence to all the Dayton DT stations to let them know that I was watching (and in the case of WHIO to ask them to increase the HD bandwidth) but never got any feedback at all....

...not to mention getting rid of those pesky blue lines! :rolleyes:

Probably just luck :) Persistance helps too --- especially if it's not just 1~10 people being persistant in letting them know 1~10 people are out here watching or informing them of a consistant problem -- They are used to the switchboards lighting up when the analog has a problem.

Where those guys at Fox were concerned ... They actually answered a email I had sent to the "askfox" email address on the Fox website -- which ended up involving correspondance 4 or 5 responses deep -- Which I thought was really cool, as I certianly didn't expect to get a response on the issue (immediately) from the "higher ups" in Fox's Tech dept ..

I've certianly gotten that treatment too, though ... Although its true sometimes if you send a email/etc. it doesn't even get read -- Sometimes it might get read(even by the "Right" person) but you might not get a response ... If you see such and such problem "fixed" though(I've had that happen w/o a response), that's certinaly enough response for me ....

With WHIO - I think I did ONCE get a response from WHIO back in late 2001. They have allways quickly "flipped the switch" pretty much immediately when HD was missing and I've called their newsroom, and I haven't tried it yet, but I'd guess calling them during normal business hours+asking for engineering/etc might be beneficial as well ...

With WKEF/WRGT -- I recall I Had to spend 20 minutes on Phone explaining HD+DTV with the person who answered the phone the 2nd day WKEF-DT was on air(The Ski-Jumping HD schedule had changed for winter olympics+they missed it at first), and I still wasn't sure if I got the information through well enough ,but within a few minutes NBC HD was present from WKEF-DT. .... After several attempts via email addresses listed on WKEF/WRGT website,( I can't recall what the issue was at the time -probably frequent missing HD or something), I was able to get through to their engineering dept. after going through Sinclair's MrDTV (I Pm'd him Via AVS as well as via the DTV questions address on Sinclair website) .....

WDTN-DT Engineering allways has been responsive to my(and others here as well I believe) comments/etc.

WPTD-DT Engineering has also been reponsive to my comments ...(CE's email address is on their website).

WBDT-DT also has allways answered my questions/correspondance via their "questions" email ...

Same thing with WCPO/WKRC/WLWT/WXIX/WCET/WCVN(KET) Cincinnati ... WSTR is the only one I've never had any luck with ....

Of course --- If you don't get a response via email or phone/etc ... Another good option is to send them a letter .... That goes into their public file, and I believe should get read ....

Keep in mind, a lot of correspondance comes into the stations --- And a lot of it(probaby not much+hopefully not any of this sort from HD viewers though) is ...(I can't think of how to say it nicely) .... just "Junk" ....and I'm sure it can be quite difficult+time consuming to go through that correspondance ....

I guess I'll just try, try again then. I guess the main thing is that my emails probably really didn't warrant a reply, as they were more of a "hey, I'm out here and I'm watching this digital channel" kind of thing. I may not have gotten one to WDTN though, as I think the email to engineering bounced or something.

I swapped out my Scientific Atlanta 3100HD for the Pioneer 3510HD cable box.

WRGT-DT works fine now with this box. The Pioneer has some flexibility which is nice. With the SA3100HD, when watching non HD channels, it wouldn't stretch the 4x3 content so I was stuck with sidebars. Not wanting burn-in, I only used the box for HD and just used a coax bypassing the box for regular cable. The Pioneer 3510HD allows me to stretch the 4x3 content. I just wish I could get the channel banner to not show up when I switch channels (afraid of burn-in again).

One question for browerjs or anyone else watching HD through Time Warner. Yesterday when I had the SA100HD box, I could get INHD1 and INHD2. Now today, with the Pioneer 3510HD box INHD1 and INHD2 are blocked and there are a couple extra (blocked) HD channels like HDNET and such. Did you any of you guys with TWC, have INHD1 and INHD2 as of yesterday and get it blocked today? Or maybe it was a function of me getting the new box that caused me to lose it. I know they planned on blocking INHD1 and INHD2 this month.

Vader,

Check last months billing statement,

Those stations are now on a HD tier 7-8$ effective 4/19/04

:(




Mad

Originally posted by Madb
Check last months billing statement,

Those stations are now on a HD tier 7-8$ effective 4/19/04

:(
Mad

Until Time Warner puts some content muscle in that tier, they can wait until the cows come home before they get any more of my money.

I feel the same way HangEmHi

So, Vader, I'm still confused about WRGT-DT on TWC. Did you have to do anything special on the 3510HD to get the aspect correct?

I checked out the picture last night and it was "squeezed down" to what looked like 4x3, but maybe that was because the show in question was SD?

Sorry to see INHD1 and INHD2 go but, like HangEmHi, I won't be shelling out for the new HD tier till ESPNHD comes along. Hockey is the HD "killer app" IMHO!

Fox network sends 4x3 programming pillarboxed on the widescreen sat feed. I wasn't watching the other day, so I didn't see if they were pillarboxing the local stuff down to 4x3 or not.

It's probably simpler for them not to, in order to avoid instances of "weirdscreen".

FYI, I subscribe to TWC DigiPic 2000 package 2 premiums, on demands, plus one of the 100s channels package. I noticed that the a la carte prices of the 3 tiers in the 100s that you can choose from was the same price as the HD Tier, so i called them up, and i was able to drop the digital value tier (100-141 i believe) in favor of the HD Tier (760-763) for the same price...

Also WRGT widescreen comes in fine for me on my Pioneer HD box, I have my box set to stretch 4:3 images in the advanced settings. This makes all stations fill your WS TV.

Originally posted by browerjs
FYI, I subscribe to TWC DigiPic 2000 package 2 premiums, on demands, plus one of the 100s channels package. I noticed that the a la carte prices of the 3 tiers in the 100s that you can choose from was the same price as the HD Tier, so i called them up, and i was able to drop the digital value tier (100-141 i believe) in favor of the HD Tier (760-763) for the same price...


Sigh. Unfortunately for me, the wife wants the digital value tier, and for sake of my peace, I'll let her have it (and do without the HD tier until it gets more muscle (i.e. ESPN HD...) since I can't stomach adding in $8 more a month just for the INHD/HDNet package (just not enough added value since I already have HBO/SHO).

Still, cool that TWC lets you do that. Just a shame I can't take advantage. :)

edit: ...and where the heck is WDTN-DT, anyway!

So, Vader, I'm still confused about WRGT-DT on TWC. Did you have to do anything special on the 3510HD to get the aspect correct?

I checked out the picture last night and it was "squeezed down" to what looked like 4x3, but maybe that was because the show in question was SD?

With the Pioneer box I have it set at 16x9 Widescreen, 4x3 Stretch.

Based on www.timewarnerohio.com it looks like if you subscribe to one of the digital tiers, you can get another for 1.95. It might be worth looking into. When i asked if i could swap the Digital Value Tier to the HD Tier, the CSR wasn't sure, so he just dropped the DVT and added the HD Tier and it came up as the same price. I'm not sure how much it would cost if you add it if you currently subscribe to the DVT.

The way I read the a la carte pricing is that the $1.95 applies to getting the digital value tier with the digital sports tier.

In any event, I noticed that they no longer advertise package deals and simply say new packages are forthcoming. I bet that the advent of the new HD tier & HD PVR & such is (at least in part) prompting the reshuffle, and I would hope that the new packages will include the HD tier in some respects.

Of course, they still haven't actually ANNOUNCED these new packages yet...
(grumble)

HangEmHi...(I like that!)

Just got off the phone with TW since I signed up for the new HD tier they advertised. The price wasn't too bad since I got a reduction on the roadrunner bill of approx $5.00/mo.

The reason I called TW was that there was no new HDNET (ch762) or HDMovies (ch763) on 4/19/04 as advertised.

(15 minutes later)

After prompting me to re-boot with no results, the rep sent a re-boot that fixed the problem.

(10 minutes later)

I told her (the tw rep) thank you very much!!! Then added how nice it would be if TW would close the deal with ESPN for HD, as well as WDTN-DT.

She mentioned how ESPN AND WDTN are being difficult in the "negoitions" but that the network switch between WDNT and WKEF might help the situation in the future... at this point I was ready to set down for dinner!

(grumble)

Again -- Concerning aspect ratio from WRGT-DT In case it helps anyone ...

Since Thursday WRGT-DT has been sending a 16x9 ATSC format at all times -- The video "signal" from WRGT-DT is allways 16x9, regardless of whether the programming is Fox 4x3 programming with Black sidebars being sent by Fox, Fox WS programming(16x9) filling a 16x9 screen, or 4x3 stretched to 16x9(WRGT local/Syndicated programming - I.e. No sidebars added or "squeezed in" by WRGT-DT so far), etc/etc/etc.

If your equipment is set up to display it just as WRGT-DT is sending it :

#1). Fox programming is being sent in properly formatted aspect ratio by WRGT - On a 16x9 display -- 4x3 Fox programming will have black bars on the side(the black bars are sent by Fox), 16x9 "Fox Widescreen" programming fills a 16x9 screen -- In proper aspect ratio. If you were to "stretch" it so the Fox 4x3 programming fills a 16x9 screen+leave it that way during Fox WS programming then, when Fox WS programming is aired, you aren't going to be seeing Fox Widescreen, you're just going to be seeing the 4x3 "area" "stretched", just as you would have before WRGT started doing Fox Widescreen (or if you, currently stretched the 4x3 video from the analog station to fit 16x9).

#2) Local/Syndicated programming(all orginates 4x3 NTSC Video, even if its 16x9 "letterboxed" in a 4x3 frame) is being sent by WRGT-DT as stretched to 16x9. To "Fix" this, you need to "squeeze it"(but ONLY when they are sending Local/syndicated programming, IF you "squeeze" the fox programming, you're going to "squeeze" Fox programming into a incorrect aspect ratio - I.e. - Fox Widescreen(16x9) "squeezed" into 4x3, 4x3 squeezed into 3x3).

To send proper aspect ratio for everything(as WXIX-DT tries to do, but when they "mess it up" it results in "weirdscreen") --- WRGT would need to switch between how they are formatting aspect ratio for the video between Fox+non-fox programming -- They would need to switch between ADDING sidebars(I.e. Squeeze) for the local/syndicated programming(so it would be properly formatted+sent in a 4x3 frame, with the sidebars filling out the 16x9 ATSC screen format they are sending), and then switch to(THIS is the "mode" they've been in since Thursday) REMOVING the sidebars("stretch") added by WRGT-DT for local/syndicated programming when they air Fox programming --- Otherwise -- If they did add in the sidebars(i.e. squeeze) at WRGT during Fox programming -- due to the way Fox sends its programming(Fox widescreen/etc) IT would result in "weirdscreen" being sent --- 16x9 squeezed into a 4x3 frame, 4x3 programming would be aired as "squeezed" into a 3x3 frame -- And hopefully we'll never see that from them ;-)

Anyhow, they haven't changed anything at any time that I've noticed so far since last Thursday.

Clear as mud?

Originally posted by HangEmHi
The way I read the a la carte pricing is that the $1.95 applies to getting the digital value tier with the digital sports tier.

In any event, I noticed that they no longer advertise package deals and simply say new packages are forthcoming. I bet that the advent of the new HD tier & HD PVR & such is (at least in part) prompting the reshuffle, and I would hope that the new packages will include the HD tier in some respects.

Of course, they still haven't actually ANNOUNCED these new packages yet...
(grumble)

I asked about the 29.95 packages that are supposed to be forthcoming and the CSR said that that is just the promotional price for new Digital cable subscribers (i don't think he knew what he was talking about though, you just got to take info for what it's worth with CSRs). The reason i was thinking that you might be able to get the HD Tier in addition to DVT for 1.95 is because there are only 4 channels, and if i'm correct i believe the sports tier only has a few channels as well... Never hurts to ask, worked for me in getting it added to the digipic 2000

WKEF-DT (51-1) is In blank screen mode so far tonight(so far during NBC prime) --- EXCEPT for the local ad inserts which are coming in just fine. 51-2 SD is fine ... "Whoopi" in HD on WLWT-DT Cincinnati, so it doesn't appear to be national problem.

Update: hmmm ... At 8:21pm I just got a few frames(about 3 seconds is all) from NBC HD on 51-1 .... Given the local ad inserts are coming in just fine, I assume the STL link is OK(They use a fiber STL for 51-1 btw) .... Sent Roland a note ....

update #2: Forgot to mention -- Getting the audio fine here from 51-1, though ..

Still out at 10:00.

Regarding WRGT and the issues I'm having, I dropped them an email a few days back and havent gotten any response yet, so we'll see. I really dont watch fox except for the simpsons so I'm not too bothered by it, I'll just wait till this fall when they do the 720p swots, and that should solve all the "issues" we are seeing.

WRGT (24) looks good in widescreen......... Even better is that "THE CREASE" is gone...... Thank God!!!!

Nitewatchman,

Has anybody in this area ever shown any ONN (I believe it's Ohio News Network) programing. I was hoping to see the OSU spring game.

Parrot,

Not that I've seen that I can recall -- except for WPTD/WCET(PBS) which airs some short news reports from ONN during their Educational TV schedule during the day.

I might be remembering it wrong, but I think at least one year WHIO might have aired the OSU spring game .... I get WCMH 4(analog) Columbus here all the time, and I'm pretty sure either they, or WBNS has Aired it before as well.

I'm a new poster here. Lurked for 2 + month's, that's how I got the D* $99 deal, tho' when it was all said and done, they ended up paying me $26 ! Thanks to you folks.

I just got off the phone with Customer Retention and they told me locals would not be available in Dayton till the end of June but then , we would get it free for a year. Has any one else been told this or were they just blowing me smoke ?:confused:

Finally got hooked up and to some testing... also got a few questions.

Equipment
Sony HS20 HDTV Projector (1386 x 788 resolution)
Sony HD300 HDTV Hi-Def Receiver
Channel Master 4248 (http://www.channelmaster.com/images/4248.jpg)

Digital Channels I found - good signals
2.1 ABC Dayton
2.2 ABC Dayton
5.1 NBC Dayton
7.1 CBS Dayton
12.1 CBS Cincy
12.2 (unknown weather channel)
16.1 PBS Dayton
16.2 PBS Dayton
16.3 PBS Dayton
16.4 PBS Dayton
16.5 PBS Dayton
16.6 PBS Dayton
19.1 FOX Cincy
22.1 NBC Dayton
22.2 NBC Dayton
26.1 WB Miamisburg
41.1 CBS ???
41.2 CBS ???
45.1 FOX Dayton
48.1 PBS Cincy
48.2 PBS Cincy
51.1 NBC ???
51.2 NBC ???

Digital - No Signal, Wouldn't Lock Channel
14.2 PBS Dayton
64.1 WB Cincy


Antenna is laying on the floor in my house, not to optimal yet. It will be installed up in the attic facing towards the Dayton way (355°) with RG6.

I know all the channels I have listed are NOT broadcasting HD signals. Are there any other channels I should be getting without too much trouble?

So far, picture quality is amazing. "Las Vegas" & "CSI: Miami" were great!

Thanks!

The only one I see missing is 9.1 ABC Cincinnati (WCPO).

I think 14.2 (WPTO-DT) isn't on the air yet. 64.1 (WSTR-DT) may be on flea power.

Robert

If you go to www.antennaweb.org or www.titantv.com and plug in your zip code, you'll get a list of the channels that are reachable from your area.

There is no 12.2 There used to be, but the people who program APG didn't clear the placeholder. You most likely don't see anything. There is, however a weather channel on 9.2. 41 and 51 are Dayton CBS and NBC respectively. They show up in two places on some APG-featured receivers.

On the floor, huh? Yeah, imagine what you'll get once you get that baby higher!

Doc

BasilS,

I believe with total choice plus, you do get locals.

That's just it, I don't have Total Choice Plus, I just have Total Choice. I recieved a thing in the mail when it was supposed to start in April that the first month would be free. Now I was told the first year is free.

While they make it appear that local channels are included, they're actually extra. See the bottom of this (http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/packages/base.dsp) page.

They are rather liberal with the free previews. I'm not sure you'll get a whole year, but 2 - 3 months is not uncommon, especially when a new area gets service or they're just pushing locals. I got most of last fall free for no apparent reason. Helpful in that DirecTV has the best WBQC-CA picture there is. But not worth it for those of us with OTA ATSC boxes.

If I'm not mistaken, Dayton comes on line with the launch of DirecTV's 7s satellite, which should happen in a few weeks. You will need a triple-LNB dish to get Dayton locals.

Doc

Originally posted by R_Willis
It will be installed up in the attic facing towards the Dayton way (355°) with RG6.


Keep in mind however -- If you aim it towards Dayton, My guess is you're probably not going to get optimal reception from the Cincinnati(or other) stations from the Lebanon area. The good news is -- All the Cincinnati towers(just North of downtown except for KET in N ky(taylor mill) are close enough together that one heading should work, and all the Dayton towers are on the same "antenna farm"(On the hill in West Dayton - Just West of 75+South of 35). For best reception of Both Cincinnati+Dayton stations -- Using seperate antennas on Seperate feedlines with a A/B switch just before your receiver to select between the two is probably the most convienent way to do it.

Originally posted by R_Willis

I know all the channels I have listed are NOT broadcasting HD signals.

The only digital stations(not subchannels) that don't do HD or Fox Widescreen in Cincy/Dayton area currently are:

WBDT-DT 18 (remaps to 26.1) - WB Dayton
WSTR-DT 33 (Remaps to 64.1) - WB Cincinnati
WKOI-DT 39 (Remaps to 43.1) - TBN (Tower Near Oxford, Ohio)

Lets hope that someday the only station on the list above will be WKOI ...

WCET-DT 48-1 (PBS Cincinnati) is Blank from 8am-7pm, PBS HD nightly from 7pm-11pm. 48-2(simulcast of WCET analog) and 48-3(PBS Kids) run SD programming when they are in HD mode - 48-4(PBS You), 48-5(CET+ and CPB/Annenburg) are "blank"(or gone) when they are in HD mode. WCET-DT on air hours are 8am-11pm.

WPTD-DT 16-6 (ThinkTV/PBS Dayton) Has PBS HD from 6pm-6am Nightly --- 16-2(Simulcast of Think 16). and 16-4(Think Again) run SD programming when in HD mode ... 16-3(PBS Kids) and 16-5(Simulcast of ThinkTV 14) are blank when they are in HD mode ....

The commercial stations pass through network HD per network schedule --- Additionally, WRKC-DT (12.1) shows the Syndicated Paramount HDOne moves(one per month) and past couple of years has done a local HD, multi-HD camera production of Cincinnati Riverfest/WEBN fireworks.

More info on Cincinnati DTV/HD stations(such as WKRC's upcoming HDone movie schedule/etc) can be found in the Cincy thread at AVS (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=306883 ), as well as here: http://www.cincinnatihdtv.com

Originally posted by R_Willis
Are there any other channels I should be getting without too much trouble?


Following is probably more than you wanted to know and I suppose it depends upon what you mean by "too much trouble" .... However, follows are the stations that aren't on your "list" above as being received which should be "in range", or "almost in range" for you ... Where WKOI+WSTR are concerned --- They may not be easily receivable for you now, but should be at some point in the future when they increase power(or antenna height in the case of WKOI-DT).

As mentioned --- WCPO-DT 10 ABC Cincinnati should be easy to pull in from Lebanon - (9.1 remap - ABC HD - 9.2 - SD Cincy Weather) - You'll probably want to add a VHF antenna for this one, though, as it transmits on VHF channel 10(All the other DTV stations in Cincy/Dayton currently transmit on UHF). "Rabbit ears" might do it - but you might need something a little better than that. FWIW, I can get them with rabbit ears up here(I'm between Middletown+Germantown) if antenna is placed near a window facing South. You would want to use a VHF/UHF joiner (such as CM part #0549) to combine a VHF antenna onto same feedline as your UHF CM4248. RS has a VHF/UHF joiner too for a few $, I can't think of the Part # off top of my head. Also, some preamps, such as CM7777 have inputs for seperate VHF/UHF antennas.

You might be able to pull in WCVN-DT 24 (54-x remap) KET/PBS - Covington, KY(Tower in Taylor Mill Just N of I-275) from Lebanon as well without too much trouble - but it's hard to say - probably depends a lot on what sort of terrain issues may be involved - and due mostly to their antenna height, you might need to go outdoors for it. I do get it just fine here from North of Middletown w/ a decent outdoor setup. They have:

54-1 - SD - KET+PBS programming
54-2 - SD - Mostly PBS National feed
54-3 - SD - KET School programming (blank during PBS HD)
54-4 - CPB/annenburg SD AND PBS HD per their schedule: http://www.ket.org/agency/dtv/programs.htm
54-5 - SD - KY General assembly coverage - House - Blank during HD+when not in session
54-6 - SD - KY General assembly coverage - Senate - Blank during HD+when not in session

As mentioned WPTO-DT 28 (should remap to 14-x) ThinkTV/PBS Oxford/Cincinnati isn't on air yet ... Last we heard, I believe they're currently planning for a 6/04 on air date. The info on their website indicates they are planning on multicasting as well as have some sort of PBS HD schedule. WPTO-DT will be broadcasting from WXIX Tower in Cincinnati (Their analog on 14 broadcasts from Oxford), and If you get WXIX-DT 29(19.1 remap), you probably should be able to get WPTO-DT just fine when they come up to.

WSTR-DT 33 (remap to 64-1) is running a 17.1KW ERP STA, which seems to do well even in Dayton for those with decent outdoor setups --- Problem is though -- They are using a directional antenna pattern which does send 17.1 KW ERP towards the North, but nowhere near that amount towards th the East or SE(certian directions to East+Se of their tower get sent only a few hundred watts) ... Your direction(NE) isn't worst ... but it isn't best either ...I show center of Lebanon at about 47 degree(true) bearing from WSTR Tower ... FCC site shows .497 relative field value at 50 degree bearing for the STA they are using --- which equates to roughly 4.2 KW ERP being sent in your direction. (relative field value in your direction Squared X Max ERP is how we figure ERP for directional antenna patterns). 4.2 KW DTV ERP is doable from 24 miles If there aren't any "too difficult" terrian/signal blockage issues -- and a CM4248 is a fine antenna that should do the job well .... Maybe even from the attic, but you'd probably need to get the antenna outdoors(and aimed at WSTR's tower of course). They'll likely be much easier to receive for you once they increase power --- Hopefully, they'll have WB HD by then(whenever that happens), but who knows.

WKOI-DT 39 (43-1 remap) TBN is on the air from a tower between Trenton+Oxford, Ohio -- But would likely be very difficult to receive from Lebanon+ you probably wouldn't think it worth the effort anyway ... They are using a antenna pattern that is even MORE(much more) directional than WSTR's --- They are currently running 18.1 KW ERP -- but Only their Community of License, Richmond, IN(some 30 miles NW of their tower) or in other words to the NW of their tower gets sent that much. Their antenna is also nowhere near as high as their analog on 43. - Generally hard to pull in unless you're around oxford or NW of their tower. I'm only 12 miles NE of their tower for instance and can just barely get them+the just over 1KW ERP they sent in my direction --- and I can only get them sometimes --- I have lots of trees+hills in the way in their direction though their analog on 43 comes in like gangbusters ....

Although you'd be out of range for most of the Columbus stations -- Much of Lebanon should be in WWHO-DT 46 (remap to 53-1) - (They have UPN AND WB HD) "fringe area" --- Very fringe area though at 55-60 miles -- and you'd likely need a outdoor setup+way to aim it towards them. Their Tower is Quite a bit South of Columbus, + Just West of Circleville in Williamsport, OHio --- 59 miles at bearing of 79 degrees from Downtown Lebanon -- which of course would be the only station in that direction .... Probably a long shot --- How possible it might be probably depends upon your exact location+any nearby terrain issues in that direction -- If you're in a low spot -- It's probably going to be especially difficult, especially as there is slow rise up to about 1100+ft about midway between their tower and Lebanon(about the same as it is between their tower and Dayton).

Originally posted by R_Willis
So far, picture quality is amazing. "Las Vegas" & "CSI: Miami" were great!


I'm glad you are enjoying it! With the Dayton/Cincy towers so close to each other(and most stations of interest at high power), with Dayton/Columbus not too far apart either for those East of Dayton/etc --- we really live in a great area for OTA+OTA HD ...

And as you've already been able to tell, most of the area DTV stations are at high power(or fairly high power), using nice transmitting antenna heights and are easily receivable for most locations in our area. All we are really "missing" currently(except those lucky enough to be in a spot where they can pull in WWHO) is WB+UPN HD - 24/7 PBS HD channel would be nice too, but the 12 hours of PBS HD from WPTD-DT is more than a lot of folks get --- The only other minus I can think of is the Bit-starved HD that results in quite noticable compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding HD from the Cincy+Dayton area Local PBS+CBS affiliates, but that's a issue many, and probably most areas are dealing with -- All in all, we are in pretty good shape, and I think pretty lucky in this area as compared to the situation in some other areas.

Hope some of this is useful, it sounds like you are already set up to enjoy lots of OTA HD :)

Update on WRGT formatting....I was able to rig up drivers and DVHS emulator to take the firewire output from my T165 box. It shows them as sending what appears to be a 480i 16x9 format (said 16x9, 29.97FPS, 15 MB/sec).

Thanks for the info 1450khz ...

Interesting ..I'd think that should be accurate - I'd asked some Dx'ers I know in the region(but not in SW Ohio) which have PCtuner cards which can tell to check it out, I'm sure they'll get the same thing as you when they do see them next time.

I hope they CAN do 720p by the time the Fox switch happens ....I'd think so, but who knows ... Anyhow, Makes me pretty happy with the PQ I'm getting from the upconversion to 1080i on my end.

I don't think 480i 16x9 is commonly sent by stations(even for Fox widescreen, although that's it's "native" resolution From Fox), Even though I know at least one time(maybe still) WTTE-DT Fox Columbus was using it .... Also, even though 480i 16x9 @30fps is a standard ATSC format+should be supported by all ATSC receivers, I wonder If it is possible "something" about it(or at least how WRGT encoder/etc. is handling it and/or how our receivers are handling it) is related to the problem jbh613 is having+that Paul and I are getting with the "crop" aspect ratio control mode on the HDV420 at 480i/p ...

As long as you've got that set up -- if you don't mind, what does it show everybody else doing(on their 16x9 subchannels) ?

Thanks again

Oh, I moved it back to the projector so I could watch Tru Calling.

I did check a couple channels to see if I could record streams.

WRGT: 480, 29.97 FPS, 16x9
WDTN: 720, 60 FPS, 16x9
WPTD: 1080 (I was curious if it was 1080 or 720)
WKEF: 1080 16x9

I was using a DVHS emulator some of the guys over in the recording forum were using to dump the transport stream off the firewire connector on the Samsung T165. At some point I will be able to check more channels but unfortunately my PC with the firewire card and the STB are in two different places.

However, in light of this knowledge, I think I will be constructing a HTPC very soon. :D

BasilS -

Don't know about free locals for a year, but just wanted to make you aware, if you didn't already know, that DirecTV will only send the analog locals, not their digital (i.e. HD) versions.

Basil S --- I'm glad gindie mentioned that .... You need to use a antenna for OTA reception for the HD locals --- Unless something has changed I don't know about(can't imagine that it would) Your HD receiver from DirecTV will have a OTA(ATSC) receiver in it, you'll just need to hook up an antenna to it as well as the dish to get the HD (or digital SD) locals.

1450khz,

Thanks! That is a cool way to make use of the firewire out on your box.

WPTD-DT had told me they were doing 1080i back last year, but of course "all specifications subject to change without notice" with this stuff ... I do know that KET/WCVN-DT sends 720p(alongside 2 SD subs) instead of 1080i, and that WCET-DT does 1080i -- I think WCET has Stat Mux capability too ... It certianly looks like it anyway the way 48-2+48-3 get compression artifacts in weird places sometimes, which seems to coincide with the HD on 48-1 needing more bandwidth ...

I was mainly wondering about WKEF, as I don't think I'd ever heard for sure that they were sending 1080i, and(to my eyes at least) compression artifacts don't seem to be as much of a problem for them during bandwidth demanding HD(2002 HD olympics, Triple Crown, This year's dayton 500) as it is with other stations in the area doing 1080i+1 subchannel ... Even WLWT-DT when they had a radar sub up for a short time last fall ... I'd WAG that WKEF isn't using a Harris Flexicoder ....

I'm starting to wonder about the upconversion the DTC-100(F38310) is doing with WRGT-DT ... Earlier, I had said it would upconvert 480i to 540p ... I know that's true for 4x3 480i(or NTSC for that matter)+assumed that would be the case with 16x9 480i as well, but given what I'm seeing on it, I'm wondering if its upconverting 480i 16x9 to 1080i .... I'm probably just seeing things though ...

I had my SIR-T165 upconverting WRGT to 720p for my projector. I meant to get a screen shot now that I have a nice new toy (Digital Camera) but the show was over and I was moving on to other things. Need to adjust my antenna a hair for WXIX, it's off just a bit.

My main gripe with WRGT isn't the PQ, it's the audio....network audio level on the DT is too low, and then I get blown away when the local spots come on.

I also did some "messing" around with my set and discovered an option in my service mode that will display station info. I ran a test on a few stations and as 1450khz posted above, I too showed that WRGT DT is at 480i with 29.97 fps but instead of 15mb/sec my readout said 12. So I guess they aren't performing any local upconverting as of yet.

To touch on a topic that was discussed here earlier, I believe that a person viewing any DTV station via an external STB is capable of receiving a better quality picture. I say this due to the fact that a STB will allow for a component output (some dvi) which is treated differently by the set than an internal input device. For example when you(Jeff) say that on your display a 480i DTV signal rivals that of a DVD, I had a hard time believing you at first, but as I started to really rationalize why, I actually could see why our results vary. With my HD tuner it is built into the set, so it is treated differently then external components such as my DVD player fed through a component cable. With the signal I receive from a DVD I have much cleaner edges and the colors are so much more vibrant and true to real life. In contrast when I view DTV stations (26-1, 30-1) the colors are way off and the overall PQ is just bad. This leads me to believe that at least in my case, that I am suffering from either a poor built in tuner, or the internal circuitry of my set for some reason displaying images of the same resolution(480i) differently. To clarify I turned my DVD player's progressive scan function off to do a direct comparison. In my case the difference between the DTV stations(outputting 480) and the DVD is immense. Just some thoughts, feel free to set me straight if I am way off.

edit: I also have noticed the really weak adio signal that WRGT is outputing.

The 15 mb/sec figure I quoted actually comes from the transport stream going to the DVHS emulator. When I changed to a 720p or 1080i signal, it said 45 mb/sec. So, I'd say the figure I'm getting does not accurately reflect the bandwidth allocations. Your tuner might be giving you more correct information.

Could you perhaps post the bandwidth numbers for some of the other stations in the area?

Originally posted by jbh613
To touch on a topic that was discussed here earlier, I believe that a person viewing any DTV station via an external STB is capable of receiving a better quality picture.


That hasn't been my experience with my HD display(38" direct view) which has a internal OTA DTV(HD) tuner, which I've also hooked a External STB up to via its component input to make the necessary comparison involved.

I do see much the same thing you seem to be seeing concerning DVD vs. SD DTV on ONE of my HD displays. It's 26" 16x9 direct View - the one that I use a external STB with. SD from DTV(or analog for that matter) just looks looks "fuzzier+softer" on it that it does on a display with similar screen size that displays 480i NATIVELY, whearas on the other hand HD(or SD upconverted to 1080i by my STB) looks just great on it(HD much better of course)... In fact, upconverted to 1080i, to my eyes, for the most part SD from DTV on it looks pretty close to what SD looks like on a high quality display that natively supports+displays 480i ....

I think you're getting on the right "track" -- and it may very well be possible that certian "settings" with a external STB might produce better quality from SD sources than what you can achieve with your internal tuner .... but I think you may not be focusing on the right issues here ... and I suspect what you are seeing involves "issues" related directly to your specific equipment+any upconversion(or de-interlacing, or how it processes the video/etc) it's doing, instead of something you can generalize concerning internal tuners vs. External STB's, or concerning the quality of 480i SD from DTV/ATSC as compared to 480i SD from DVD ..

What is in my experience is :

#1). For the most part I don't think we are really seeing what 480i SD "looks like" with most HD displays out there ... I can't really think of any that I've seen, internal or external tuner -- regardless of screen size ..Some of them do a decent job making SD look close to as good as it can(which isn't so great still when compared to HD of course)

#2) SD(480i) material especially can WIDELY vary in quality for many reasons - especially perhaps when it comes from local TV stations.

#3) The upconversion being done by your equipment to the Native resolution(s) your Display supports can make a BIG difference.

#4) How your equipment(which can vary greatly by model) processes the video can make a big difference as well - Take color accuracy for instance(What the stations are doing as well as the source material involved can be a big factor with "color" too).

I do think that they do make sure that DVD's "look good" on HD displays, because they know many people are using HD displays to view DVD's, unfortunetly more than are using them to watch HD -- although hopefully that's starting to change.

As for my HD Display with internal tuner -- I've pretty much seen exactly the opposite of what you are saying. Again --- One of my HD displays(RCA F38310) is just like yours to the extent that it has a INTERNAL ATSC(OTA DTV/HD)tuner. The internal tuner is, for most intents and purposes a internal version of a RCA-DTC-100 -- I often call it a DTC-100, or "internal" DTC-100 for simplicity's sake as the tuner/RF performance+user interface are exactly the same -- It's more precise name is a DM-1 module, but only those with a few models of RCA Integrated HDTV's are going to know what that is.

What is different with the DM-1 module vs. DTC-100 is ....The "external" DTC-100 model outputs RGB analog video(not component - you need a transcoder for that with it), but I don't know how the Video gets from the DM-1 module to the tube(38" 16x9 tube) on my F38310.

Anyhow, I do know with the internal tuner, it produces Higher quality 1080i HD PQ(to my eyes at least) than hooking a external STB(well, the Zenith HDV420 box I have anway) to the the F38310's component input. I can't really do a "direct" SD comparison, as I can only send 480i via S-video or composite from the HDV420 -- but the internal tuner does better with SD as well, but it's hard to tell what is what there anyway, since the SD is upconverted to 540p for display anyway. The external HDV420 DOES however seem to do a better job upconverting 720p to 1080i.

With DVD on the F38310 -- 480i (via component in) doesn't look as good(it doesn't look "bad" either though) as DVD at 480p which looks as good as I've ever seen DVD's look --- This is because of the upconversion it does to 540p. 480i(4x3 at least) is upconverted to 540p, but 480p is displayed natively via its component input. That differs from my Samsung HD display -- Sending 480i or 480p from DVD player looks pretty much the same on it, Either way -- DVD's look great on it --- as the Samsung does a great job converting 480i to 480p(which it has to do -- it CAN only displays 480p+1080i natively --For DVD's via component input anyway --- BUT, yet as mentioned earlier -- it doesn't seem to do anywhere near as good of a job with 480i/p from DTV stations(or NTSC analog for that matter) via composite/S-video or its internal NTSC(analog) tuner(again -- I don't have a way to send 480i from this STB via component to the display to do a better comparison, as it won't output 480i via component out) -- Which ends up looking "blurry and soft" to my eyes -- Blurrier+softer than it looks on a display that supports 480i SD natively, (yes, similar screen size - this is "just" a 26" 16x9 display) -- and yes --- even via Composite/svideo on the "native" 480i display.

Originally posted by jbh613
For example when you(Jeff) say that on your display a 480i DTV signal rivals that of a DVD


I think you may have misunderstood my comments. For one thing --- as mentioned above I use 2 different HD displays+ PQ comparison(at least as I see it) between DVD+480i DTV signal differs between the two. But generally speaking --- I did not mean to say that most of the time 480i from a DTV station DOES look as good as DVD -- It USUALLY doesn't for various reasons, even if you were using a native 480i display. Only that it CAN, and its in the "ballpark" as far as quality goes --- but We're talking about a BIG ballpark where SD quality is concerned, and of course again, opinions of PQ are very subjective.

The best 480iSD(from Video anyway) I've seen around here from a DTV station is from WSTR-DT during their local News(it's a new operation, and they have all new gear they are using) -- But yeah, Fox Widescreen is pretty much on par with DVD quality too -- why shouldn't it be -- It's EXACTLY the same resolution(and again ATSC has some improvements over NTSC where color/etc is concerned)+there isn't(shouldn't be anyway, although I'm sure it happens depending upon what local stations do) anything to degrade it from that(besides the upconversion/processing your equipment is doing/etc), except "real time" MPEGII encoding necessary for during Broadcast.

Originally posted by jbh613

In contrast when I view DTV stations (26-1, 30-1) the colors are way off and the overall PQ is just bad. This leads me to believe that at least in my case, that I am suffering from either a poor built in tuner, or the internal circuitry of my set for some reason displaying images of the same resolution(480i) differently. To clarify I turned my DVD player's progressive scan function off to do a direct comparison. In my case the difference between the DTV stations(outputting 480) and the DVD is immense. Just some thoughts, feel free to set me straight if I am way off.


I'm sure you are seeing what you are seeing -- and again this is all pretty subjective stuff .... But I think you are trying to get at why you're seeing what you are seeing, and that may be a difficult question to answer ... I think you'll find it to be a very ... let's say "involved" issue ... You could spend a lot of time on the color accuracy issue alone, for instance .... Best thing I can suggest is to do some research on this issue ... It might be hard to find, but, if it helps, there have been some excellent discussions on these matters on AVSforum among folks that are certianly far more knowledable than I.

Another thing you can do .... I think to make the comparison you are trying to make, what you really need to do is compare what 480i from a DVD vs. DTV(say Fox widescreen from WRGT-DT/etc+any other sources you can find - WDTN-DT, WHIO-DT usually, and usually WBDT-DT sends video that looks decent when displayed on display that natively supports 480i) looks like on a display that NATIVELY displays 480i+compare it to what your equipment is doing where upconversion+processing of the video signal is concerned -- knowing the specs on your equipment can help too, I don't know how much of that is going to be in the user's manual, but hopefully it won't be too hard to find out at least which resolutions/scan rates it natively supports.

To make the best comparison, You'd probably want see 480i SD on a "studio quality" broadcast monitor via component video, but, say a $300 27" TV via S-video(and probably even composite) would probably suffice for you for this comparison as well .... Although of course you'll see the Scan lines which you won't get on your HD display ....

Hi Gang

Yesterday, I had my RPTV ISF calibrated. In a word: WOW! I had things somewhat tweaked myself (including red shift fix in the service menu) with Avia, etc. But the picture is SO clear and ALIVE, now! If you guys are interested, contact Chad B - his website is here: http://www.hdtvbychadb.com/
I can vouch for his knowledge and attention to detail. In no way do I get any consessions for my referals, I just think this is good money and time (it took 12 hours) spent!

-Bruce

Bruce,

I had come across Chad's Website+his posts on another board, I had a feeling he would do a great job. Looks like great prices too, especially for calibrations that include multiple scan rates - Even better, he's in our area.

I wouldn't want to even try to guess how many hours I spent correcting the geometry(among other things) on my Samsung direct-view display ... I "sort of" had fun doing it, but I know it seemed like more than $200-300 worth of work, and of course I don't have the equipment necessary to do the job ISF's calibrators do. The geometry especially was a mess and because it really needed some more "controls" in the service menu deflection settings, it was especially difficult to minimize bow problems it had as much as possible.

Yes, $349 for 12 hours of professional work is pretty good. I've had quotes from people that were $200 higher for the same work. He probably spent half the time on geometry/convergence. I would never have that much patience, myself. Alot of what he did, I'd be more comfortable to do myself, now that I actually saw someone do it (and he explained it to me, too). However, I doubt I'd ever invest in colorometers (if that's what they are called) and I2C (EEPROM programers). My wife definitely notices the better PQ, so all is good! I think that anyone who is serious enough to read this board should consider this work.

-Bruce

Thanks Buckeye for the info. I am really considering ISF and his prices seem to be extremely reasonable.

I'm in Columbus and can vouch for Chad. He calibrated my "old" Pioneer SD-532HD5 last year and did a fantastic job. It wasn't too far off on some settings but when he was finished, I noticed a big difference, especially after he removed the--in my case--unnecessary protective screen. He's very thorough, explains what he is doing and what the results should be, and has extremely reasonable prices. Time for a touch up so I'd better call him.

Please don't tell me that I'm the only one that can't receive 2.01 or 2.02?

-Bruce

WDTN-DT is off air at 7pm. There were down for much of the day a few days ago as well --- I hope they aren't having any problems that are too serious ...

Guess I'll be Watching "Almost Famous" Tonight in HD on WCPO-DT (at least I hope so) .... Crazy ;-)

I'm not getting WDTN-DT either. I figured they might be having problems as I usually don't have any problems with their signal.

I can tell they are off air with a little trick(+thanks to WKEF-DT being on upper adjacent channel) on a analog TV .... If WDTN-DT were on air, I'd see snow on 50 that pretty much looks like regular snow .. Some can tell the difference in the random pattern in the "on channel DT snow", but its quite difficult .. however, with 50 off air, When tuned to 50, the AFT (on this NTSC tuner anyway)wonders up a bit to 51 to an especially "visable"(produces "big" snow(it's big "horizontally) portion of WKEF-DT's sigal on 51(probably near the 8VSB pilot signal), which it doesn't do if WDTN-DT is on air, as it locks on WDTN-DT "signal" instead.

This doesn't necessarily work this way on every analog TV(NTSC tuner), but also, if you have a analog tuner you can manually "fine" tune, you can probabbly see the "big looging snow" from DT's as well ...

Some interesting Changes for broadcast version of "Almost Famous" ... I think it's OAR if I remember right(1.85:1) .... But, For some reason, they can't say "Hyatt House"(Hyatt is actually taken off their sign, which just says "Continental" now ... LOL!) .... I found that really odd ... I also thought they might use the "feck" word, but it didn't happen .... Was hoping to watch it on WDTN-DT for the DD 5.1, (WCPO-DT does DD 2.0 only -- although word is they'll soon have DD 5.1) although I can't recall if it was even produced in DD 5.1.

Originally posted by buckeye1010
Please don't tell me that I'm the only one that can't receive 2.01 or 2.02? They appear to be off the air.

Doc

Also -- keep in mind They have plans(and a CP) to increase power to 1000KW. Their CE told me back in late Feburary that he thought at that time that they would be at 1MW by "Mid-May" ...

Other than tonite, as I mentioned earlier they were also down for several hours during the day one day this past week(or it might have been the week before that) -- I also noticed last Sunday that I lost signal from them for a couple of short periods during HD "Alias" ... Pretty sure it wasn't on my end or a reception issue.

Looks like WDTN-DT is down for upgrades until Tuesday. I sent a query to the engineering staff and got the following reply from Jim Atkinson:

"WDTN-DT is currently not broadcasting due to extensive
transmitter upgrades. The upgrade involves adding transmission
capabilities that will increase power to one million watts. This
addition requires not only the transmitter upgrade, but also
electrical and antenna transmission line additions.
I apologize for the disruption of service, but it is necessary for the
work to be completed.
I expect the broadcasts to resume Tuesday, April 27.
Thanks for your interest and watching WDTN and WDTN-DT.


Jim Atkinson
Chief Engineer
WDTN
WDTN-DT"

Kevin

Anyone else experiencing problems with WKEF(51-1) since last night? The top half of the picture is non existent for me.

jbh - I see the same problem with 51-1.

-Bruce

You just gotta appreciate Jim Atkinson's courteous and timely response. It sure is refreshing when someone cares enough to let people know what's going on!

Paul210,

I certainly agree about Jim Atkinson. He sent a new update today, as follows:

"Just want to update you on WDTN-DT. An adapter for a transmission line
coupler was not shipped Friday, as expected. The result is a delay in
broadcasting by WDTN-DT. "Hopefully", Wednesday the 28th.
Again, I apologize for the interruption of service.


Jim Atkinson
Chief Engineer
WDTN 2
WDTN-DT 50"

-Kevin

WDTN, I have a word for you... redundancy.... Sorry guys Jim has been great but this should never happen.

I also just received a nice note from Jim at WDTN-DT concerning WDTN-DT situation(I hadn't sent him anything recently BTW) as well as NAB in Vegas, which he attended -- Good to know that a Dayton CE is keeping up on the lastest and greatest in the DTV/HD world.

parrot1,

I think it's great that WDTN-DT is maximizing their DTV signal at this stage of the game --- A few days of them being off air is a small price to pay ....

Also -- WDTN 2 Analog is, and has been on the air as usual. Which seems redundant enough to me.

If you want ABC HD for the few days it is missing from WDTN-DT, If you can(most everyone in Dayton Area is Within either WCPO-DT's or WSYX-DT's Coverage area for example), the best "rendundancy" in our area is to also receive stations out of Cincinnati and/or Columbus .... If you rely on OTA like I do --- there are ALL KINDS of reasons why its a good idea to setup your antenna system so you can receive all the stations it is possible for you to receive. Although it doesn't happen very often, stations do go off air --- In the worst case scenerio(let's hope this doesn't happen here) -- Towers collapse, and it can be months, and even YEARS in some cases before full service is restored.

Also -- Keep in mind, At the current time, they are not required to maximize their signal, but they are doing so anyway -- IMO, WDTN + LIN(owns WDTN and several other stations such as WISH Indy, WLFI Layfayette, IN) are DTV/HD leaders, and we are lucky to have them in our area. I think they should be commended for doing the work NOW to move to High power(1000KW ERP is the Limit for DTV that FCC allows on UHF BTW) so they can better serve viewers, including the new viewers to come in the future.

Although it doesn't happen very often, it is normal at this stage of the DTV game for stations to go off the air for this sort of thing. Broadcast equipment is quite expensive(For instance It generally costs them several million Dollars to build out a full power DTV station w/HD capability -- and Utility bills for a high power UHF transmitter runs $,$$$ to $$,$$$ per month) , and few stations have backup transmitters/antennas/towers/etc. especially where DTV is concerned.

Here's another example: WLWT-DT NBC Cincinnati was Off the air for much of Spring/Summer and Early Fall 2002, and WLWT analog, and WCET analog were at low power for many months+ --- Why? Because they had the entire top 1/2 of their tower(a 1,000Footer) Down, strengthening it to support the Full power WLWT-DT+WCET-DT digital antennas. WLWT-DT also got a new DT transmitter. So, what did I do for NBC HD during that time? : watch WKEF-DT ....

-------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------

WKEF-DT Update 10:10pm - Noticed that the 1/2 screen problem(it was there last night as well) during NBC Feed is fixed tonight for WKEF-DT ..... That has happened before BTW -- Just a guess, but they probably had to "reboot" something .... (Jinx alert ahead!) I have noticed that since they've been using the autoswitcher, there hasn't been any missing HD that I've seen ...

I commend the effort, but question the timing. Considering that ABCs best (HD) programming is Fri-Tues.

PS, Analog is dead to me.

I'm sure they scheduled the work when it could be done, and that they hadn't planned on being down long, if at all except a overnight period or for a few hours/etc. IMO, It's better they do it now than when there are more viewers out there.

If you can't(or won't put up a adequete antenna setup) pull in WCPO-DT(or WSYX-DT if you're east of Dayton) for ABC HD, and won't watch analog, I don't know what to tell you, I guess you're just out of luck -- And I don't mean that to be "nasty" but that's just the way it is. Stations(even analogs) go off the air, sometimes for reasons beyond their control --- See Murphy's law.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

All,

Just received an update from Jim at WDTN-DT. Keep in mind, in his earlier update, he pointed out that he was hoping to get the plant on the air by today, he didn't say it would happen :

Jeff,

Murphy just doesn't want to leave us alone. Several cables are missing
from the factory shipment that will have to be over-nighted. This will
cause another day of delay in return to broadcasting. I am very hopeful
that all will go well and Thursday will be the day. I am now cautious
in my prediction; as it seems that delays in shipping keep interfering
with our progress.
Please accept my apology for the inconvenience. I assure you that all
of us here at the station are doing all that we can to expedite our
return.

Best wishes,


Jim Atkinson
Chief Engineer
WDTN 2
WDTN-DT 50

Thanks for that info Jeff...

You do a GREAT JOB with all your help!

Thanks again,

Kerbs

Thanks for the kind words -- Thank YOU and all other area AVSforum members for particpating here, and AVSforum and ALL its members for being here ..... A special thanks to local broadcasters for sending us HD+PBS/Fox Widescreen .... I'd also like to thank the academy and everyone in New Zealand ... and .....

Oh ... that reminded me ... Has anyone heard any WB HD news lately from WBDT? I'd seen on another thread that a poster had been told by station personel that his local ACME WB(Acme owns WBDT) DTV station was planning on doing WB HD this coming Fall .... (WB is going to air LOTR Triology in HD over next few years, starting this Fall ....)

At 10:45am, Just did a quick check and noticed that :

WDTN-DT is currently on the air.

Update 9:50pm : Just Noticed ABC HD is missing from WDTN-DT for "Kingdom Hospital" -- HD is fine from WCPO-DT, ABC Cincinnati. I just tuned in, so I sent Jim at WDTN-DT a note, asking if the missing HD was due to the upgrades they are doing, and if so, when we might expect to see ABC HD from WDTN-DT again ....

Update #2: 12:50pm 4/30 - Heard back from Jim concerning the missing HD last night -- Looks like it was just a switching mistake In Indy(Switching for WDTN-DT is controlled from a LIN facility in Indy, but can be "overridden" in Dayton if necessary) that they didn't catch in Dayton.

I wonder how the talks between WKEF and ABC are going ...

Sinclair is pulling Nightline tonight from its current ABC affiliate stations(Including WSYX Columbus) -- Which might not be such a good sign ....

Sinclair currently has a message about it currently up on their main website page :

http://www.sbgi.net/

Hmmmm....wonder if WKEF might wind up indie......or UPN?

I might have to go hunting for a VHF antenna around football season then.....

I think that thread got whacked due to the political nature. The link is dead.

LOL!! That would be interesting, but I'd look to ABC to give away the store to remain as low on the dial as possible. Look for a lot of promos where Peter Jennings talks about Dayton things and even turns up in town for the switch. If Dayton were a little higher up the food chain, I'd look for a Jimmy Kimmell Live from there for a night or two. I'd say they could even get a GMA visit out of the deal if they play their cards right..

Whenever you see one of those GMA hits and you can't really figure out why ...it's usually something such as this. When News Corp booted CBS from WJBK in Detroit, it prompted all of the other stations to get sweetheart deals with their networks. ABC so sucked up to WXYZ it wasn't funny. Even *I* got a picture standing with Peter Jennings.

Doc

Yeah, that thread didn't stay there long. Edited out the link in last post. Probably be gone from the Sinclair site too after today. There was a story in the paper on it too today.

Going to be interesting to see what happens with WKEF, hard to guess, but I'd have to agree with Doc.

On the one hand, ... I wouldn't think ABC would want to lose Dayton affiliate and who could it be besides WKEF? Besides the current contracts, CBS isn't going anywhere, ACME(WBDT) is all WB I believe ... WRGT/Fox is Sinclair LMA anyway --- And of course Cox has the UPN 44 cable thing + I don't know of any Pax or independant Sinclair stations ... Heck, we've even got WB/Pax(secondary) from WBDT with WSTR just down the pike ... that WSTR high UHF analog coverage area though - at one time(well before WB or even the WSTR calls), they even had a Dayton Translator on 66 ... When WBTI(now WSTR) was doing the "ONTV" subscription OTA thing in the early 80's anyway ...

But ... On the other hand -- it is fun to think about any other possibilities ... After all Sinclair and ABC don't seem to mix well ... and With Cincinnati towers so close, I think we ARE in an interesting situation here, in most other areas of country, Dayton(if there were no TV stations in Dayton) would be inside Cincy DMA ..

Think about it ... WCPO's(and the DT and most other Cincy High power stations for that matter) "Grade B" contour covers all of Dayton(up to about I-70, I think even Fairborn is in their Grade B contour), so i'd think if necessary, even WCPO COULD invoke must carry for pretty much all of Dayton area ... And you've got Columbus farther East/NE/SE of Dayton ... The communities to the North and West of Dayton are another matter but it isn't too far and you run into Ft Wayne+Indy .... But, I also wouldn't be surprised if TW Western Ohio could get WCPO up North too if they "wanted" too ... Of course, as must carry rules are presently, a station can choose must carry for analog OR the digital, not both, and the way its been for the most part with cableco's, DT channel coverage involves retransmission consent and "deals" ...

It's one thing when we keep the "status quo" of the Dayton/Cincy situation with affilates from each net in these overlapping markets and I don't know, but seems like there may be a oppurtunity to upset the "boat" a little here .. For better or worse who knows, and not that they would WANT to ... There allways has been that oppurtunity of course, its just never really happened. I do know at one time back in the 60's or 70's or so, someone floated the idea of putting the towers between Dayton+Cincy and making it one big market, but it didn't happen, and of course, the "major" Dayton/Cincy stations were already "established" by that time although what is now WDTN was WLWD, and then a part of WLW-Crosley (all NBC affliates) regional Network, which I remember as owned by a outfit called AVCO who purchased Crosley's TV stations in the late 60's ..

Personally(and selfishly) -- It would be nice to get UPN HD -- But all I watch(and only occasionally) on UPN is Enterprise anyway, and I don't know how much longer that will last .... a HdNet OTA affilate would be nice too, but don't think they are doing that except their "Hdnet lite" service, if they still do it ....

Just blabbering on --- Fun to speculate I guess when you don't know what's going on ;)

I wonder if we could see WCPO back on cable up here. I remember they used to be on Dayton cable but then WCPO and WDTN signed some deal to divvy up different areas, and the stations were taken off cable systems in the opposite markets.

I wonder if that deal becomes void with WDTN switching affiliations.

I remember WCPO+WXIX being on Dayton Cable as well -- even not far from WPAFB back in the mid-late 80's. Seems like I recall they'd black out some programming from WXIX for WRGT at times.

Looking at the cableco Channel lineup in my local paper here -- which is the Channels guide from Cox, but from Middletown Journal instead of DDN w/the cableco lineups for most communties between Dayton+Cincinnati, Including S Dayton TW. For TW S Dayton, shows the following Cincinnati stations are carried:

WKRC 12
WXIX 19
WCET 48

Sort of funny that in the shadow of the Dayton Towers they're still getting Krc, xix+cet via cable .... if this channel lineup is correct that is ...

All the communties listed show WPTO 14 Oxford as carried, Hamilton-Fairfield/Lebanon/Middetown and just about everything between Cincy+Dayton carries most of both the Dayton+Cincinnati stations -- EXCEPT strangely in many cases --WDTN which is only shown as carried by TW S Dayton out of all the communties in the list, and WHIO/WRGT are missing from a few of them too ... WPTD is listed for all of'em, WDTN is the only Dayton station(besides WRCX which only shows up for TW S Dayton) not shown as carried by Fairfield TW. WCVN/KET gets as far North as TW Middletown I believe(even though it's not listed in this guide). I'm of course North of that myself+in a spot that NO cableco serves, and probably never will ... TW cable stops about 1/2 mile up the street, and even the utility lines stop for a short bit nearby where CG&E(oh it's cinergy now isn't it) runs into DP&L territory at Butler/Montomery co line.

I allways thought it a little odd though that I'm only 12 miles from Dayton antenna farm, but, I'm considered to be "in" Cincy DMA. (Cincy towers 27~39 miles distant).

I'm in Beavercreek Township, which I believe falls under TW Fairborn,

we get: WDTN, WHIO, WKEF, WRGT, WKRC, and WXIX(blacked out a lot during FOX programming, but at least we get the Bearcat football/bball games)...

Way back i rember that WDTN was on Channel 2 on cable and Cincy's ABC came on Channel 9, if i remeber right they switched because of the shadowing on channel 2 or something like that... (i could be way off base on that though)

People were getting ghosting and interference on Channel 2 from the Channel 2 analog OTA signal. This happens a lot with 7 as well, you'll get stripes down the screen from the out-of-phase mixing of the cable signal and the air signal. Usually referred to as "ingress problems" and caused by crappy grounding or poor shielding in the cable system.
I've also seen some interference around cable channel 67 which is near UHF OTA channel 16.

What happened was that WCPO was dropped from Channel 9, WDTN moved from Channel 2 to Channel 9, then Channel 2 got Home Shopping or other assorted type junk put on it. It was done partially to rectify the interference and partially as a result of the WCPO/WDTN deal where they agreed not to be carried on cable systems in the opposite station's service area.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
partially as a result of the WCPO/WDTN deal where they agreed not to be carried on cable systems in the opposite station's service area.

I know what you're saying here -- WCPO/WDTN(and perhaps other Cincy/Dayton stations in some circumstances as well) must have came up with an agreement where one station(or the other) wouldn't be carried in certian areas within the overlapping service areas involved --- I'd guess Probably which portions of that area that are in each DMA might have had something to do with it.

But -- the involved stations service areas overlap each other. WDTN's service area includes much of Cincinnati area, and WCPO's service area includes Dayton -- As is the case with most of the Dayton/Cincinnati Full service stations. Must Carry rules and the Station's service area depend upon the station's Grade B contour. Unless there are Must carry rules for overlapping service areas+stations of same network affilation/etc(other than the blackout stuff for network programming) I don't know about --- If a grade B signal from the station reaches the cable-head end for any community(which it would for WCPO in Dayton), its in their service area and the station can invoke must carry for that area. Basically, if there's a grade B signal there, it means you can put up an antenna and get it too ...

-----------------------------------

Update: Forgot to mention -- Since sometime last night -- WPTD-DT 58 isn't remapping here to 16-x , at least on the Zenith HDV420. I have the channel mapping turned off on the DTC-100 anyway.

Has anyone from the Dayton area tried to receive a digital signal from UPN 23/DT-32 Marion, Indiana?
At approximately 303'.

Duane123

Duane,

I see WNDY 23 Analog occasionally via a little tropo, + I've seen a hint of what was probably their DT signal on 32 on occasion, but at 90 Miles through terrain that rises over 300FT higher than my antenna within a few miles in that direction, I don't have much of a shot at it without enhanced atmospheric conditions. Along with WTTK(until WXIX-DT started noising it up a little anyway) +WFYI 20, when I do see them The analog on 23 is usually one of the best signals I usually get on UHF out of Central indiana.

I'm about 12 Miles SW of Dayton though, seems like Folks not too far West+NW of Dayton would have a decent shot at them, especially as they are at 1000KW ERP, and their antenna pattern this way looks good :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/polarplot?temp=33152&rotate=0.00&p0=0.942&p10=0.990&p18=1.000&p20=0.999&p30=0.979&p40=0.939&p50=0.894&p60=0.855&p70=0.837&p80=0.853&p90=0.907&p100=0.962&p110=0.990&p120=0.957&p130=0.902&p140=0.850&p150=0.833&p160=0.847&p170=0.883&p180=0.929&p190=0.970&p200=0.990&p210=0.976&p220=0.924&p230=0.837&p240=0.712&p250=0.551&p260=0.356&p270=0.190&p271=0.187&p280=0.281&p290=0.370&p300=0.281&p310=0.193&p320=0.332&p330=0.532&p340=0.709&p350=0.849&p360=0.942&

Jeff,

I noticed that the local UPN station in Dayton is cable only. And was curious if there was a UPN station that could be received OTA, from central Ohio. Didn't know if the signal from WWHO DT-46 from Columbus was receivable in Dayton. Can't get it here in east central Indiana. Our local NBC station is on DT-46 at I believe 1000KWs.
Since we are now in the central time zone, we like to watch Dayton stations, since the shows are an hour earlier!
Also WBQC DT-38 might be an option when they come on the air full power.

So far I can recieve these Dayton DT stations WDTN,WHIO,WRGT,WKEF,WPTD. And these Cinncinnati DT stations WLWT,WSTR,WCET.

Is WDTN-DT off the air again, or do I need to fix my antenna?

Edit: Never mind, antenna issue. :)

1450KHZ,

Pretty sure its not your antenna ... WDTN-DT was down a bit earlier, Then they were up, now I just watched them go back down at 7:13pm.

Duane,

I think There's a couple of Folks in Dayton that pull in WWHO-DT (Check Voyager6's posts in this thread) -- WWHO-DT does both UPN/WB+paramount's HD-one package. I do get WBQC 25 analog here, but I'm probably pretty much on the "fringe" for them.

As you know, WSTR doesn't do WB HD yet, and Neither does the Dayton WB digital station - WBDT-DT 18 - WLFI 18 Layfayette might give you problems there, also WBDT-DT's full power allocation is 35KW ERP(which they are currently running I believe) -- Probably due to CCI issues concerning WLEX 18 Lexington, KY).

WBQC-CA 25 doesn't have a Digital Channel allocation, they're having to move to 38 to keep their Class A status because of interference protecction issue with adjacent channel WBDT 26 Dayton. WOTH-LP 38 Cincinnati is owned by the same folks as WBQC, and WOTH-LP is moving to 25+using WBQC's current facilities. WBQC could go digital on 38 I suppose, but I don't know when it is going to happen, its probably going to be an analog station on 38(at 140KW ERP). Last time I talked to him, their owner said they'd go digital "when enough people can see them".

Of the Cincinnati stations, I'm sort of surprised your getting, say WSTR-DT, but not WKRC-DT 31 or WXIX-DT 29, of if you are using a VHF antenna too, WCPO-DT 10 --- I assume you're not too far from Indy if WTHR-DT 46 is local -- Do you think WANE-DT 31 or WTTK 29 are co-channel issues for you where WKRC-DT/WXIX-DT is concerned ? Also, seems like you'd be in a good spot for WKOI-DT 39's(TBN) directional antenna pattern -- Their Community of license is Richmond, In(which they squirt most of their power towards), but their tower is about 30 Miles SSE of Richmond + between Oxford+Trenton, Ohio.

Anyhow -- Forgot to mention -- Welcome to AVSforum+The Dayton Thread -- Good to hear from you, I allways enjoy hearing how+where the signals are getting out to ...

Hi guys--Don't know if I missed the message or thread on this...but I have not been able to get a visual feed on channel 30 (FOX). I can get the sound fine but nothing else. This has been for at least over a week. The other channel 2, 16, 26, 41, and 51 are fine. Anyone else with this problem?

Hmmm....I haven't seen this problem yet. Currently I get two channels, 30-1 and 30-2....the -2 channel says "No AV" when I try to watch it, but I do have video and sound on 30-1.

Didn't catch any problems on WRGT-DT tonight, at least not during "Mad TV"....WXIX was in Weirdscreen mode.

WDTN-DT is apparently off the air again....I must have just caught them earlier out of happenstance while they were on. Analog was working though.

WDTN-DT is back on the air this morning(5/2).

That blank channel 30-2 has been there on WRGT-DT on Some receivers for a long time.

namx,

WRGT-DT Started sending Fox Widescreen with 16x9 ATSC format(Apparently 480i 16x9) over two weeks ago on 30-1 -- They were using 4x3 480i prior to that time. Could it be you stopped seeing them when they switched formats? If you haven't tried it, perhaps a channel rescan might help you out. Lots of info and reports on the Fox Widescreen/etc. from them in the last several pages of this thread - I haven't heard of anyone not getting any Video, but there have been some who have reported some issues with proper video centering.

----------------

Update all: At 12:45pm 5/2 - WHIO-DT is currently off air.

Also, as as been the case for a few days here, WPTD-DT 58 is not remapping via PSIP to 16-x, otherwise its fine.

Thanks for the advice, Nitewatchman. Channel re-scanning did not help. Still without visual on channel 30. I tried emailing WRGT but they have not replied.

I am watching a Hitachi 57S700 with a regular over the tv antenna hooked up to Ant C to receive OTA feeds. Don't know really what else to do.

Regards.

Interesting. Check out jbh613's previous posts on this thread concerning WRGT-DT since they've went to "widescreen mode". He's having problems with them since they started doing Fox Widescreen too, and I believe he is also using a Hitatchi Display with built in ATSC(Digital/HD) tuner.

I haven't heard anything from them recently after sending their Chief Engineer a note a couple weeks ago -- although, it was over a month before they responded to my questions the last time --- I'm sure they are busy up there with 4 (digital+analog) stations to run ...

Another place you can send your email is the email address for "mr DTV" concerning DTV matters for Sinclair owned/operated stations(Including WRGT) which is listed here:

http://www.sbgi.net/business/dtv/contact.html

update: You might also have better luck if you call WRGT/WKEF during normal business hours at: 937.263.4500 and ask for engineering (or their Chief Engineer - Roland Martel ).

I suppose contacting Hitatchi could be of some use as well, if you can get through to someone who might know what's going on with this ...

Anyhow -- Let us know if you find out anything+thanks ahead of time ...

Namx,
first off, welcome to the forums. As Jeff(Nitewatchman) posted above I too have had problems with WRGT-DT since they "switched" their signal output on my Hitachi(T600) display. In my case the image is there, its just not centered properly.I also sent them an email regarding this problem about three or so weeks ago and have not gotten any response. Namx, I have also noticed when I try one of the various stretch modes that I get strange bars of colors, so there is certainly a problem with their feed relative to our sets.

On a side note, I guess I'm kinda glad to see that I'm not the only one having this problem and its not just my set.

Is WHIO-DT down for everyone?

WHIO-DT is currently(still) off the air(5/2). Really -- I wouldn't say that if I didn't know, or at least wasn't 99%+ sure, I'd say "apparently" or "seems like" or unless they are at very low power/etc/etc/etc ... besides looking at the DTV receiver's "meter" there are a couple of other ways I can tell. I'd sure love to hear about it though if I'm wrong and anyone is getting them OTA(currently 6:25pm 5/2 or earlier this afternoon). Of course, if someone is really close to their tower and their exciter is still sending a few watts to the antenna system, its possible someone could still be getting them, presently.

TW people(or some) may still be getting them though, depending upon what's going on at WHIO-DT, and if some or all of the TW head-ends are fed from WHIO-DT via fiber and/or TW's distribution system instead of getting the signal at the headends OTA from WHIO-DT.

So, I'm curious, are/did any TW people still receive WHIO-HD/CBS HD Golf via TW Cable this afternoon? WKRC-DT had the HD Golf on today, don't know about WHIO if it was still available today via cable.

WHIO-DT is down for me :(

I wonder how many people are calling them and asking about it --- If their analog station were down, I'm sure the switchboard would have been lit up all afternoon .... I remember a WXIX person saying once, "evidently, noone is watching the digital station, because nobody calls when we go off the air" ..

--------------------------------------

Update 8:15pm: WHIO-DT is currently on the air w/Cold case in HD. Not sure exactly when they came back up.

jbh613 , sorry to hear about your visual. However, I am quite disappointed that I don't even get to see anything. Not that I am a big Fox viewer--but we here in Dayton only get limited channels anyway. Are you able to pull the Fox affiliate in Columbus or Cincinnati?

Nitewatch , I'll call WRGT when I get a chance this week. I'll let you know what they say. Maybe this a problem associated with Hitachis with built-in tuners.

Thanks everyone for being so helpful. Now, if only Channel 41 will come back. :)

namx,

You must have just missed my update to last post -- 41/WHIO-DT has been back up since 8:15pm(or a little earlier) :)

Don't mean to butt in on your question to jbh, but If You are in Dayton area and not too far North of I-70(Your Chances are better if your south of I-70), and as long as you don't have a "serious enough" terrian issue towards the SSW, you should be able to pull in WXIX-DT Cincinnati(Does Fox widescreen although sometimes they do their own version of it, which we call weirdscreen), and the rest of the Cincinnati stations without too much trouble with a decent, fairly hi-gain outdoor directional antenna setup. You might of course have to use a different heading for Cincinnati than you do for the Dayton stations -- WCPO-DT ABC Cincinnati is on VHF channel 10, the rest of the Dayton/Cincy digital stations are currently on UHF. Columbus Fox is probably a long shot from even East Dayton, currently, as they are at quite low power.

Noticed WPTD-DT seemed to be having some problems tonight(PBS HD was on 16-2 there for a while, but with no audio(at least from my Zenith receiver) for example) ...

The good news is, they've seemed to get it all straigtened out and back to normal just a couple of minutes before 10:30pm. REmapping back to "normal" - 16.2~6 here, with HD on 16.6, Think16 on 16-2+ Think again on 16-4 (16-3/16-5 currently blank).

Which is good, because I missed "American Experience"(HD or WS) at 9, and planned to check it out at 12 when it reairs :)

Here's a question on HD channel assignments. I had thought all HD (digital) broadcast would be on the UHF band, and after the switchover the VHF frequencies were to be re-allocated to other services. But there is WCPO-DT (and others?) on VHF. It seems odd to invest so much money for equipment to transmit VHF on a temporary basis, unless they were going to stay. Also I assume the mapping (eg 2.1) on VHF is to help the general public transition to the new channel numbers. Any and all comments welcome.

old dog learning new tricks,

Dave

There was some hemming and hawing about it and they eventually settled on channels 2-51 being the "core spectrum" with the higher UHF's going to other uses.

The matter in question was the fate of the low-VHF channels, because impulse noise and atmospheric effects found there weren't conducive to DTV. However, broadcasters like VHF because of the lower power levels, smaller transmitters, and lower energy bill.

I'm hearing that a few VHF-Lo broadcasters may keep the UHF assignments for the reasons 1450 outlined. When Rich L was the chief of WLWT, he indicated they would move to 35 at analog cutoff. Of course, things change... <g>

Doc

Jim at WDTN had told me about 8 months ago(when I asked) that although it was too early for them to make a "de-facto" decision" their plans at that time were to keep 50 for DTV after analog shut off because of the impulse noise issues. I've heard the same(keeping their current DTV UHF assignment for DTV after analog shut off) from Shaun(Enginner) at WCMH 4 Columbus, and others I know whom have inquired have heard the same from WRTV 6 Indy+WAVE 3 Louisville.

IMO, Lo-VHF has advantages and disadvantages, (just as is the case with UHF)and neither the advantages or disadvantages should be overlooked in any given situation. For instance, lo-VHF(ch 2-6 - 54-88MHZ) could probably work quite well for a reasonably hi-powered station mainly serving rural viewers in Outlying communities(several of these in the plains states), (Or terrain challenged areas) but might not be such a great idea when large urban areas are involved.

There aren't however many disadvantages I can think of for Hi-VHF(ch 7-13 - 174-216MHZ) ....

One present problem concerning getting an idea of how well lo-VHF DTV works for OTA DTV is, the analogs pretty much saturate ch 2-6 in most areas and the Digital stations on lo-VHF currently are few and far between because of that. Also, ALL of them currently are at quite low power, with only less than a handful with current full power allocations from FCC of more than a few KW ERP -- They can't run more than that currently because of co-channel interference issues. I don't believe there have been any comprehensive tests concerning a high power, or even moderately powered lo-VHF DTV station so far, nor are there any "real world" examples. The only tests I know of that have been made "public" involved a mid-nineties Low powered test station on Channel 6 in NC, and overall the way I understood it the test showed some promising results although they did find impulse noise to be more of an issue than they had thought at first.

Also --- Unfortunetly there are a lot of articles and such(some old, or using old sources) still out there that say (H)DTV will use all UHF with VHF being auctioned off for other uses, but this is incorrect.

Originally, "way back when" they did in fact want to use UHF only, but then they added in VHF Ch. 7-13, and then later added in ch 2-6, the FCC decision on the latter was made in early 1998. It is the spectrum used currently by TV Ch 52-69 that is going to other uses(being auctioned off+a portion is being refarmed for public safety) ...

Anyhow, there is an excellent recent article on Low-VHF(ch 2-6 - 54-88MHZ) DTV here:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/f_DTV_on_LowBandVHF-03.10.04.shtml

We also had a bit of a in-depth discussion(and a few reception reports) of suitability of lo-VHF for DTV here last summer :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=295958

My HR10-250 HD Tivo (Direct Tv w/ OTA) arrived yesterday! Wonderful capablity! But I seem to have a problem with the guide data for WHIO. 7-1 and 7-2 show up with full guide data, but no signal. (these stations come up based upon my zipcode). Upon scanning for all available signals, 41-1 and 41-2 do show up, and I can WATCH there - but there is no guide data for 41.x, therefore I can't do season passes, and any 'on the fly' recordings I make show up with no title. Anyone else out there with HD Tivo in the Dayton area?

It's not just you. DirecTV's guide data assumes WHIO remaps their signal, which they do not. Not all APG-enabled DirecTV HD receivers exhibit the issue, but yours appears to. The Zenith I've had for 3 years does the same thing. It also does it with WKEF-DT. I get a picture on 51-1, but the program banner and guide data are on 22-1 (which DOESN'T have a picture).

Doc

So, the problem is definitely on D*'s side? Any ideas of who & how to contact to tell them?

Thanks for the response

Actually, the APG is programmed by a third party. I want to say it's Zap2It, but I'm not certain. I'd think the easiest way to get it straightened out is to pester WHIO into implementing PSIP remapping.

Doc

Originally posted by DrDon
I'd think the easiest way to get it straightened out is to pester WHIO into implementing PSIP remapping.
Doc

Good luck with that ;-)

This sort of issue Buckeye is having is a "stinker" though ...

One problem is, stations aren't required to send channel mapping via PSIP(not to even mention proper Time&date STT info or program guide info OTA via PSIP), although they are trying to get PSIP it added to the standard, I believe as a requirement. One can only hope that in the future this will get sorted out, but it might be a while ...

In addition to WHIO-DT/WKEF-DT, WRGT-DT also doesn't implement channel remapping, and there have been several instances(at least on my receiver) for short periods(a few days/etc - such as over the past weekend) when WPTD-DT didn't remap either. Also, things "change" on WCET-DT daily -- 48.1 is there only from 7-11pm, and 48-4+5 disappear during that time as well.

Yes, now that I remember, I did see something about Zap2It.com being responsible.

For Fox - I get no data. For WKEF, I get data for both 22-x and 51-x.

Funny thing is, it would probably be a 10 minute task, and it would make life so much easier for us ATSC OTA Tivoers (though we are small in numbers, just right now).

My antenna is in my attic (w/o rotator), so looking to Cincy isn't an option, as I can't get them with my 333 degree heading, here in Washington Twp.

I'll contact D*, the stations and Zap2It. We'll see....

I don't know about it being a 10 minute task, at least on the station end ... From what I've heard about it, properly implementing PSIP tables on the station end isn't a task for the weak hearted, especially since different receiver models are known to handle things "differently" when it comes to PSIP issues .. The static PSIP(channel remapping/etc) I'd think should be easier to implement than dynamic PSIP (Program guide via PSIP OTA for instance).

Let us know how it goes+good luck ...

And if you call the station, you might not want to mention that it's for a TiVo. They sort of frown on commercial-skippers <g>>

Doc

A new, excellent article on Low-VHF DTV has just appeared at TV technology:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/On-RF/Low_BandVHF.shtml

Personally, I like the 100KW ERP (DTV power) idea for ch 2-6 he talks about ... If FCC ever upped the max power allowed for DTV on 2-6 to those sorts of levels, they could put some DTV "superstations" with HUGE coverage areas there .... I just hope FCC does the right thing where this BPL stuff and the potential interference issues involved, not only for lo-VHF TV/DTV, and gov't lo-vhf/HF frequency allocations, but the potential interference issues for all HF/VHF licensed services involved, not to mention the "potential" interference issue TO BPL systems from those licensed services ...

For Dayton-area TWC subscribers, you might be interested to know that Time Warner has finally posted its revised digital package deals.

Shockingly, it looks like good news. For example, the DigiPic 2000 package (which includes 1 tier and 2 premium channels) that I was in now is cheaper (now $59.95) and includes equipment (which it did not before).

Unless I find out some flaw, I may use the cost savings to pick up the HD Tier (which is, as someone previously noted, interchangeable with the other tiers, cost-wise). I refused to simply add more to my bill for modest content, but if they essentially want to cut prices in order to lure me in, that's a deal I can live with.

Here's a link:

Time Warner Packages (http://www.timewarnerohio.com/dispatcher/products;jsessionid=0000X2OQVCGJOZOZE4W013GFWKA:-1?docNickName=progPackages)

Discussion?

[updated 7:20pm] WRGT-DT has changed something. At 6:25pm 5/10, I notice that on 30-1, 4x3 Local/Syndicated stuff is being zoomed and cropped slightly, the result is video in a approx 14x9 frame w/small black bars on the sides to fill out the 16x9 ATSC format they are presently sending.

I'm also no longer getting the video centering problem on 30-1 I was getting with the "cropped" aspect ratio control mode on my Zenith HDV420 STB.

There is also a/v on 30-2 presently. It is formatted as 30-1 has been since WRGT-DT started doing Fox WS a month ago -- So, I'm Guessing that 30-2 is 480i 16x9 now, and 30-1 is ??? 16x9 (Maybe 720p or 1080i?) ...

As long as Fox/Fox WS programming is still in proper aspect ratio on 30-2(would be nice if that were the case on 30-1 also but ...), I like it to get us through until Fox goes HD this fall ....

Update 8pm: Fox programming is fine on 30-2, but Dayton viewers who have never seen "weirdscreen" can see it (slightly modified from the WXIX version given the ~14x9) on 30-1 presently.

Also, I forgot to check the audio earlier. I'm getting it out of Left channel only on both 30-1+30-2 presently.

Also, on one display here(which doesn't do 3:2 pulldown, although I'm not sure that's the issue - This one hooked up to Zenith HDV420), during Seinfeld, it was dropping quite a few frames on 30-1 only(Seems fine for the Fox programming currently). Unless I caught them when they were adjusting something, This doesn't happen with my other display(Does 3:2 pulldown, using internal version of DTC-100) during seinfeld. I've noticed the same thing happens from WSYX-DT Columbus(when I can see them), but with them, only during ABC HD.

------------------------------------------

Concerning WHIO-DT -- not that it matters, but I've noticed Audio for last week or so from WHIO-DT on 41-2 is frequently dropping out on both my receivers --- About 3 times or so about every 5 seconds and only getting about half the audio .....

TWC Followup:

Well, so far the CNSR (CustomerNoServiceRep) gave me the line that the pricing is for new customers only, while admitting that it didn't look good for me to be paying nearly $20 more than I should. He said that the supervisors sometimes make allowances but "not very often" and said he'd have a supervisor call me back.

Way to go TWC, you're taking the goodwill I was having towards you and flushing it straight down the toilet. If they don't make some allowance, I'm going to go OTA/Satellite as soon as I can. This is just so silly. I wanted to give back half of the savings in new service, and I have to go through CNSR hassles?

:mad:

well good news and bad... First off, the "new" 30-1 is upconverted to a 720p, wich is certainly a good thing, but the bad news is in my case, the image is really squished. the image seems to be a native 16x9, but it is crammed into a window smaller than 4x3 with black bars on all sides. The overall pq is really nice though, and a noted improvement over their old setup of the 480i(now on 30-2) Lets see if they can iron out some of these bugs.

Oh and Jeff, I too have noticed random audio dropouts lately on WHIO, happens for about four or five seconds, then its back, who knows??

Originally posted by jbh613
the image seems to be a native 16x9, but it is crammed into a window smaller than 4x3 with black bars on all sides.


Tonight, the Fox programming was "native" 4x3, on 30-1 it was squished into a approx 3x3 area as both Fox(which adds the sidebars at network level for 4x3 fox programming)+WRGT-DT are "adding sidebars", whereas during Fox programming, WRGT-DT shouldn't be "squeezing in" its sidebars too, that only needs to be done when they are sending local/syndicated programming. If Fox had been sending 16x9 (Fox Widescreen) tonight instead, it would have been squished down to a approx 4x3 frame on 30-1(I say approx becasue WRGT is slightly cropping/zooming 4x3 material).

Fox programming was formatted properly on 30-2 tonight (just as it was on 30-1 for the past month), Local/Syndicated programming is 4x3 stretched(no sidebars added) to 16x9.

Another way to say it is, Fox presently sends its programming(either 16x9 or 4x3) as "anamorphic 480i"(just like a "anamorphic DVD") to its digital affiliates -- Which requires all Fox programming to be "stretched" at the station for proper aspect ratio before broadcast -- WRGT Syndicated/Local programming(4x3), of course does not need to be stretched(or zoom/ccopped) for proper aspect ratio, thus they would need to switch between those two modes(at the right time) to send proper aspect ratio for both Fox and WRGT local/Syndicated programming -- Unless that is, if they just use the same Fox video they send to the analog station(4x3) as they were doing prior to One month ago.

I wish I could figure out an easier, more "technically correct" but understandable way to explain it, and I hope the above at least makes some sense.

Jeff - yes, that makes sense! I finally saw the infamous Fox Weirdscreen. Hope they get the video and audio problems worked out. It's great to think that they will be ready for the real deal HD this fall.

I've been meaning to comment on the audio problems on 41-2.

I thought the new Fox series "Casino" by Mark Burnett was supposed to be broadcast in HD, and it has been advertised as coming this summer...

Word on the Programming board from foxeng is that Fox will begin passing HD in August for those stations that have installed the new gear. They expect the rollout to be complete by September. I'd assume this means any show will be in Widescreen until August at the earliest, September at the latest.

Originally posted by HangEmHi
TWC Followup:

Well, so far the CNSR (CustomerNoServiceRep) gave me the line that the pricing is for new customers only, while admitting that it didn't look good for me to be paying nearly $20 more than I should. He said that the supervisors sometimes make allowances but "not very often" and said he'd have a supervisor call me back.

Way to go TWC, you're taking the goodwill I was having towards you and flushing it straight down the toilet. If they don't make some allowance, I'm going to go OTA/Satellite as soon as I can. This is just so silly. I wanted to give back half of the savings in new service, and I have to go through CNSR hassles?

:mad:

Has a supervisor got back to you yet? This is bullshit. I've been a Time Warner customer for a few years now have road runner and most of the premium channels. Now they take away my HDTV and want me to pay more. Let them know when they call you are not the only upset customer and give them the link to this forum. They can see for themselves.

Hi folks, I have only recently started reading this thread and have found it very informative. Here is a question about WHIO-DT. I did do a search on this topic, but the answer wasn't clear. Concerning the lines in the lower left of the screen showing on dark or dark blue areas. Has any explanation been found? I get the impression that WHIO is not very forthcoming about much of anything. My set is a 60in rear projector which shows the lines quite well. But wow, HD is beautiful. My indoor antenna will soon be replaced by one on the roof. Sorry if this question is a bit "stale".

Dave

I never heard an explanation. Many of us have told them about the lines. They've been there for at least the 15 months that I've been watching HD.

WRGT-DT has been working on the aspect ratio problem on 30-1 today, and I'm pretty sure they have it "fixed" currently to send proper aspect ratio for Fox programming. A bit earier, They put up the test Pattern Fox sends for 16x9/Widescreen as received by them from what Fox calls "RX C" for short periods, and since a little after 4 pm, it has been sent properly.

I've been talking to Thom Fowler, WRGT/WKEF Asst. DOE today, and giving him feedback/comparing notes/etc. Just a few mintues ago while we were on the phone, he put up the Fox WS test pattern so I could double check it, and it looks good on both 30-1 and 30-2. Of course, presently 4x3 local/syndicated programming is stretched to 16x9 on both subchannels.

A few points of info from our discussions:

1.) What he might do(if he can) in the future(at least until Fox starts sending HD, at which time the "anamorphic" issue with the Fox programming should no longer be an issue for them) is keep 30-1 as it is presently, and send 480i 4x3 on 30-2 (just like 30-1 used to be prior to mid april). If that works out, I think that would give us the best of both worlds, as in that case we'll get proper aspect ratio for both the Fox/Fox widescreen programming on 30-1, and proper aspect ratio for WRGT programming on 30-2, without any need to adjust the aspect ratio control modes with our equipment.

2.) The Fox guys are AT WRGT-DT right NOW installing the upgrade that is needed at the affiliate for Fox HD(the Fox HD splicer system). So, they will be ready for FOX HD when Fox starts sending it in a few months. It is because of this work(and the addition of the 30-1 720p service) that currently, Audio is coming out of left Channel only from WRGT-DT. Thom said he thinks he'll be able to get it back to 2 channel audio by sometime tomorrow, and that currently, R+L channel audio are both going into a single channel(L) -- So its all "there", but just coming out of one side, temporarily.

3.) The dropped frames I was seeing last night during seinfeld on 30-1 were there because Thom was working on the Aspect ratio issues/etc at the time.

4.) Thom mentioned that he talked to WXIX's CE Today, concerning the Aspect ratio issues with Fox WS/etc, as well as the Fox HD upgrade and what was needed from the affiliates end. I'm not sure where the guys from Fox are going next, but I'd guess(just guessing) they might visit WXIX soon ...

------------------------

That's everything I can think of -- I can't thank Thom+the other Folks at WKEF/WRGT enough for being so responsive on this issue, I'm sure all of us here appreciate it.

Also, thanks to AVSforum member Foxeng, whom I pestered today via PM with some comments/questions which he quickly responded to.

Jeff - Thanks for ALL you do! And thanks to WRGT. I wish the other stations were as open and friendly about this stuff!

Jeff - I tried calling WRGT last week and was kept on hold and eventually transferred to a voicemail. I just hung up as I was in a hurry. Not that it really matters now. I flipped through 30-1 today and was pleasantly surprised it was broadcasting. I too had the problem with the side bars. Hopefully, they have fixed that by now (I at work presently).

The other thing I noticed was 30-2 now has the problem I had before, which was sound only and no visual.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

2.) The Fox guys are AT WRGT-DT right NOW installing the upgrade that is needed at the affiliate for Fox HD(the Fox HD splicer system). So, they will be ready for FOX HD when Fox starts sending it in a few months. It is because of this work(and the addition of the 30-1 720p service) that currently, Audio is coming out of left Channel only from WRGT-DT. Thom said he thinks he'll be able to get it back to 2 channel audio by sometime tomorrow, and that currently, R+L channel audio are both going into a single channel(L) -- So its all "there", but just coming out of one side, temporarily.


Thanks for answering my question about the audio before i could ask it :) Too bad it will most likely be like that for 24 tonight, but in the long run who cares, and the 720p(converted to 1080i on my display) now looks a lot better then the 480i that was coming in before....

WPTD-DT 16-6 "think 16 HD" intermittant problem:

I've noticed on a couple of nights over the past week - week 1/2 or so, that occasionally(like right now) from 16-6 and PBS HD channel I'm occasionally getting from what ranges from a Blank screen to the video cutting in and out, to during the Think16 HD "promo" large, black bands. The first night I had seen it, it was fixed after a bit, so I assumed they know about it, since If I recall correctly, I believe they do off-air monitoring.

I'm getting it on both receivers/displays here, so I assume I'm not the only one who has seen this? Audio is fine and the SD program services (16-2~5) are fine.

WHIO Blue lines:

It's really strange, I certianly know they are there for some(or many) folks given the reports here over the past 2 years or more, but I've personally never seen them here. I thought I had seen them once, but that turned out to be another issue when I think their encoder was on the fritz and needed rebooting or something.

Originally posted by namx
The other thing I noticed was 30-2 now has the problem I had before, which was sound only and no visual.

I figured that might be the case for you -- what's on 30-2 presently(16x9 480i ATSC format) was the same thing that was on 30-1 from Mid april to a couple of days ago. Hopefully, as mentioned above(at least until they start doing Fox HD after which time the Aspect ratio formatting/etc shouldn't be an issue, I'd think) - they'll be able to put 480i 4x3 on 30-2, just as it used to be before they started doing Fox Widescreen, with 30-1 Video left as it is presently.

WHIO Blue lines:

It's really strange, I certianly know they are there for some(or many) folks given the reports here over the past 2 years or more, but I've personally never seen them here. I thought I had seen them once, but that turned out to be another issue when I think their encoder was on the fritz and needed rebooting or something.

I think I noticed them once or twice. I'm using front projection with an image slightly larger than 5 ft horizontal.

WHIO only seems to care about the DTV channel for stuff like the NCAA's, when I saw a bunch of ads about HD coverage mainly talking about the Time Warner channel. They don't seem very responsive to the viewers at all, so I generally watch CBS HD via WBNS in Columbus instead.

I have yet to use my DTV box this week so I haven't tried out the "new" WRGT setup.

I always have the blue lines, but it doesn't really bother me that much... WHIO seems to be doing a lot better with HD switching even since i've made the switch (jan-feb). They rarely miss anymore for the programs i watch at least. With the exception of Yes Dear last week, which i think was a national problem, considering i saw something come up saying something about NY HD Feed, and the first week of the Golf in HD.

At around noon today i checked 30-1 and I was getting audio out of the left front and the center channel, (instead of just left front as i was last night)... Anyone else seeing this?

browerjs - yep, same here - left and center only.

What about WHIO-DT? I can't get 41-1 or 41-2.

At 6:55pm, I'm getting "proper audio" from both 30-1+2 here. R+L discrete channels, Pro-logic II decoder here is currently sending audio to all 5 channels.

Also, 30-2 is now sending 480i 4x3.

I like it! Everything seems to be working well from WRGT-DT here at least, presently.

-------------------------------

WHIO-DT was off air when I checked about 15 minutes ago or so, but they are currently on air currently at 6:58-7:15pm. Audio problem is still there on 41-2.

--------------------------------

PBS HD from WPTD-DT seems fine tonight, not seeing the problem I was seeing last night. Update 8:10pm -- Well, it was fine earlier, but I'm getting the video "glitches" from 16-6 again currently. I'll send them a note.

Yep, audio OK on 30-1. However, I noticed some macroblocking and artifacting on 30-1 during "That 70's show."

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
At 6:55pm, I'm getting "proper audio" from both 30-1+2 here. R+L discrete channels, Pro-logic II decoder here is currently sending audio to all 5 channels.

Also, 30-2 is now sending 480i 4x3.

I like it! Everything seems to be working well from WRGT-DT here at least, presently.



30-2 is sending 480i 4x3 for me also. But guess what? No picture. Just audio. Only reason I know it 480i 4x3 is that I can change my aspect to 4x3 standard, zoom, etc. Maybe it is just my brand of TV. Not really matter though, as long as 30-1 is working. I have WS TV anyway.

namx

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Yep, audio OK on 30-1. However, I noticed some macroblocking and artifacting on 30-1 during "That 70's show."

Yes, I watched American Idol on Tuesday (11 May), and the AI Results Show on Wednesday (12 May) - there was *definitely* more macroblocking on Wednesday. Both shows were "live" (probably some sort of delay) so it should have been a good comparison.

I've been saying, "Goodbye to the future of Rock and Roll", and I haven't paid much attention to TV/HD the last few days. I've been listening to 97x off air for over 20 years, therefore last night just after 12am hearing the above quoted words as the last sounds emanating from 97x before 40+ minutes of silence(the carrier was still up until programming under new ownership began around 12:45am) made for a sad time here ... It was a very classy way to sign off, as well as a bit of broadcasting history which I doubt I'll forget. I, and I know many others will miss them.

A bit OT, let's hope we never see any of our local DTV/HD broadcasters "signing off" the airwaves in any sort of permanant fashion.

Anyhow, back on topic --- from the limited DTV/HD monitoring I've done the past few days, follows are the issues I've noticed :

WRGT-DT :

Frequent Video "freezes" on 30-1 during ST:Voyager ONLY with my Zenith HDV420+display(s) I'm using with it - The other display/receiver here is fine. I haven't noticed it with any other programming from WRGT-DT besides ST:Voyager, but then again, I haven't checked much other programming. The local ad inserts/station promos/etc during ST:Voyager last couple of nights were fine as well, but the freezes were occuring with the other commercials.

Best way I could explain it would be, it's like what you get if you're watching streaming Video over a dialup connection and the video freezes occasionally. Pretty much the same thing I described seeing from 30-1 in a preceding post on last page during "seinfeld" one day last week, and also similar to what I've seen from WSYX-DT when I've seen them over the past year or so during ABC HD, except instead of dropping frames, it looks more just like short freezes.

Not seeing the problem at all from 30-2, and again, it isn't occuring at all on 30-1 (as is the case with this similiar problem with WSYX-DT) on my other setup here (RCA F38310 w/internal DTC-100). It happens with the Zenith box no matter how I output video, Via component, RGB(VGA), Svideo/Composite, 1080i/720p/480p/480i/etc -- to Samsung TXN2668WHF HD display, or to a PC monitor via RGB/VGA out, or a POTV(plain old TV) via composite out. Besides the decoder/receiver being different on the two setups, only other thing I can think of that is different is the F38310 does 3:2 pulldown, the displays I'm using with the Zenith Box do not. I've never seen this, or anything similar happen anywhere else (besides WSYX-DT).

WRGT-DT 30-1 Compression artifacts(what you guys are calling "macroblocking") :

I did do a quick check Wed of 30-1 just after 9pm after I had seen 1450khz's post, and I didn't see any difference in compression artifacts at the time between 30-1, and WXIX-DT 19.1 -- I was seeing some compression artifacts from both stations however -- Which seemed odd to see from WXIX, as they run a single program service, upconverted to 1080i. I just looked at it for a few seconds though, and not really under the best circumstances to do a good comparision.

I didn't check the analog stations or 30-2 at the time, but I do recall there have been occasions over the past couple of years, such as during a couple of NFL games and NASCAR races when compression artifacts(what you guys are calling "macroblocking") were an issue concerning the nat'l Fox feed which affected both analog and digital stations, on a national level.

Again, however I haven't had the chance to look at it closely enough yet to comment much where compression artifacts are concerned on 30-1.

-----------------------------------------

WHIO-DT 41-2 Audio - Still broke - I sent a note to the 7online email BTW, for all the good it would do. I started off by asking them to forward the note to enginnering, and also asked if they could tell me what the best way is to contact their engineering staff. I also sent the link to this thread+invited them to join us or monitor us. I haven't heard anything back yet, not that I was expecting to.


-------------------------

WPTD-DT - PBS HD from 16.6 was fine last night when I checked. I wasn't seeing the video "glitches" I mentioned earlier which I've seen occasiionally over the past week or two.

However -- the past couple of nights(and presently even though they are in 4 channel SD mode) I noticed audio was missing from 16.4 when they were in HD mode. OF course, I first noticed the missing audio from 16.4 just after I'd sent their CE a note concerning the video glitches I was seeing on 16-6 occasionally, as I'd also said in the note that A/V from 16.2~16.5 were fine ... I suppose I'll have to send them a follow up "updated" note concerning the 16.4 audio.

I also asked for an update on when they currently expect WPTO-DT 28 (ThinkTV14 analog, Oxford) On air. WPTO-DT will be broadcasting from WXIX tower in Cincy. Last we had heard from them in Cincy thread, they were planning on a mid-may on air date, if Weather/etc. cooperated for the necessary tower work. I'll post if/when I hear anything back - They are probably busy with WPTO buildout/etc.

------------------------------

IMO ... These sorts of issues I think are to be expected at this stage of the game ... I think if we were to draw an analogy between DTV/HD broadcasting and NTSC TV broadcasting, It would probably be about 1953 right now. I expect it will get "smoother" as time goes on .... especially when the DTV station becomes as important(or more important) than the analog .....

I've been saying, "Goodbye to the future of Rock and Roll", and I haven't paid much attention to TV/HD the last few days. I've been listening to 97x off air for over 20 years, therefore last night just after 12am hearing the above quoted words as the last sounds emanating from 97x before 40+ minutes of silence(the carrier was still up until programming under new ownership began around 12:45am) made for a sad time here ... It was a very classy way to sign off, as well as a bit of broadcasting history which I doubt I'll forget. I, and I know many others will miss them.

Truly a sad night last night. I recorded the last two hours to my mp3 player, but I doubt I will want to listen to those tearful and sorrowful goodbyes again. What a shame to wake up and hear a station that sounds just like all the others, and also that it and two local stations serving Brown County will soon be no more, all in the name of a move-in and a buck.
Thank God I changed my mind and didn't go into radio, as I am disgusted with what's happened to that industry. Actually, make that with the music industry in general....

Back on topic, I haven't checked out WRGT-DT since Wednesday, so I'm not sure what the situation is there....I haven't seen any dropped frames on my T165 box, just the macroblocking or MPEG-type artifacts. I didn't try to compare to WXIX to see if it was a bandwidth issue for the network or not. Audio levels are still really low, I wish they would crank them up and level things a little better as I get blown away during the local breaks if I crank up my receiver to hear the network sound.

Are we due for 5.1 via WCPO soon? I think I saw on their website that they are moving to their new building this weekend....

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Are we due for 5.1 via WCPO soon? I think I saw on their website that they are moving to their new building this weekend....

I think so -- They said in one of their recent email newsletters they'd have DD 5.1 soon, and they've said it will be after they move into their new building. As I just posted on Cincy thread, during noon news they said they'll be doing the news Monday morning from the new studios.

When they do start doing 5.1, they'll probably also soon update the bit at the bottom about Stereo Surround Sound here:

http://www.wcpodt.com/

I would imagine the first priority is to work the bugs out before turning their attention toward the DT. And, with a whole facility move, there are bound to be more than a few bugs. I'd say a month at the earliest.

Certianly, Doc.

I suppose I might have a little different take than others(especially newer members) concerning the time frame encompassed by the word "soon" where these matters are concerned.... Considering the time frame involved with "soon" on occasion with this sort of thing in the past ..... In this case, I was thinking "soon" could cover the time frame between now, and when WDTN is airing NBC programming ;-)

Both WCPO-DT+WDTN-DT are missing HD for the NHL playoff game today. I'm guessing the move to the new building might have something to do with it for WCPO.

I called WDTN-DT newsroom ( (937) 293-5121 ) around 3:50pm+asked them to ask control room to switch to ABC HD feed. HD switching for WDTN-DT is normally controlled from LIN/WISH facility in Indianapolis, but if I recall correctly, I believe they can do something about it in Dayton as well, but I'm not sure. I don't see(nor am I getting DD 5.1 indication on my receiver, which is allways the case during ABC HD feed/Nat'l commercials) any change yet as of 4:05pm .. Maybe they need more people to call :)

BTW, I also sent WDTN-DT CE a note.

Called.. got the "our HD is routed through Indianapolis and I think we had a couple other people call.." response from a nice guy named Jason. He said he was looking into it.

NEXT!! <g>

Is WHIO channel 41 down for everyone? I can't get a signal a 3:07

WHIO-DT 41 is currently off air, it has been for at least the past couple of hours. Seems to be happening quite a bit on weekends recently. HD golf fine from WKRC-DT Cincinnati currently.

BTW, WCPO-DT Cincinnati is currently off air as well -- No ABC HD from them either Fri or Sat -- Both probably due to their Studio move.

Also noticed that in addition to Missing HD from the Hockey game yesterday, WDTN-DT was missing ABC HD each time I checked during Harry Potter last night, except for a few minutes of it during the first 30 minutes.

WXIX in Weirdscreen mode last night for Fox Prime+MadTV, and during Fox News Sunday this morning.

Originally posted by breedingamies
Has a supervisor got back to you yet? This is bullshit. I've been a Time Warner customer for a few years now have road runner and most of the premium channels. Now they take away my HDTV and want me to pay more. Let them know when they call you are not the only upset customer and give them the link to this forum. They can see for themselves.

Second TWC Update (Short Version):

Well, it took two days, and four phone calls to four different CSRs, but finally I got what I wanted.

Longer Version:

First CSR I mentioned already said only for new customers, I'll have a supervisor call you back within 48 hours.

Wait two days, no call. Call, speak to Second CSR. Nice, cheerful, but new, and after much waiting on hold, says I can get the package at the new price, but she can't figure out how to ala-carte add the HD Tier.

Hang up, start driving home. In the meantime, wife at home discovers that Second CSR disconnected the digital cable entirely. Speaks to Third CSR who restarts service.

I get home, and find that service is back, but minus Showtime. Speak to Fourth CSR, who reconnects Showtime, and adds the HD Tier, so FINALLY, after much grief, I have a lower cable bill *and* the HD Tier.

Wa hoo!

I contacted WHIO today and spoke with engineering about the downtime of digital station 41-1 and 41-2. They said that it was down due to upgrading to full power and should be back up sometime on Tuesday. While I was speaking with them I also asked them if they would be upgrading to DD5.1 anytime soon. I don't recall seeing this posted before, but, they said that they currently have the equipment and it's just a matter of doing the upgrade, but that we should be receiving DD 5.1 from WHIO shortly. Good news from them!


On another note for the TWC subscribers, I called them today concerning the new price of the DigiPic2000 package and was able to get the new deal of 59.95 that includes one box. This cut down my bill 20 bucks. I had no problem getting this deal, and just mentioned it didn't say anything about new subscribers only on the website. The CSR changed a couple of codes, gave me my price, it was still higher then i expected, so i had them tell me all my extras i was paying for, and found the discrepancy's to get the 20 bucks knocked off. If you get a bad CSR (and believe me I've talked to quite a few idiots at TWC) that doesn't know anything, just ask for their supervisor and they will usually get everything straightened out.

Thanks for the info on WHIO-DT browerjs. Good news about the power upgrade+DD 5.1.

Would also be nice if they could also took this oppurtunity to drop 41-2+increase bandwidth available to HD so we don't get the intolerable(IMHO) compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding portions of HD programming. On the other hand, 41-2 has been handy when they put weather bugs/etc up on 41-2, and have left the HD alone -- Not too handy though if the audio is broken, as its been the past 2 weeks+ on 41-2 ....

Full power for them should be 1000KW ERP, with directional antenna that doesn't favor SW (right towards Me+ WDRB 41 Lousiville tower). Nevertheless, Past few years however I've been getting them like gangbusters here with 9 KW ERP(.19 relative field strength)that should be getting sent my way with their current 275 KW ERP STA. They are probably the hardest Dayton Station to pull in with simple antennas from indoors from my location, however. See here for more info on their full power CP(construction permit) :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WHIO&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=

Another TWC-HD update... I contacted the marketing director for TWC-Western Ohio, asking if we would be getting TNT-HD for it's official launch (I guess there was some HD on this weekend for the NBA in the markets that it was already showing up, but i think official launch is 5/19/04). She answered me saying that TWC-WO would be carrying it later this week.

Thanks, browerjs, that's good news. Not as good as ABC-HD or ESPN-HD, but still welcome! :)

Thanks for the info on WHIO-DT browerjs. Good news about the power upgrade+DD 5.1.

Would also be nice if they could also took this oppurtunity to drop 41-2+increase bandwidth available to HD so we don't get the intolerable(IMHO) compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding portions of HD programming. On the other hand, 41-2 has been handy when they put weather bugs/etc up on 41-2, and have left the HD alone --

It almost makes me wonder if the same person set up all the Dayton digitals, because they all are running SD subchannels for no apparent reason.

It's good to hear WHIO will be adding DD 5.1, but until they start giving the HD enough bandwidth I will keep watching WBNS.

The grapevine has said that WKRC-DT Cincinnati *might* start giving CBS HD everything(except that needed by PSIP/audio of course)after Webhopper is discontinued. The vine also said WKRC-DT *might* get DD 5.1 later this summer or fall as well ....

According to their website+ a AVSforum member(who works at 'KRC on Webhopper) on Cincy thread, Webhopper IS being discontinued on WKRC-DT on 5/31/04 at 23:59 EDT.

I'm on the phone right now with TWC trying to get the DigiPic 2000 deal with the HD Tier.

So far so good... I seem to have gotten a good CSR... she's having a little trouble getting it into the computer but she is trying...

:update:

She's still trying. She can't qet the price quite right. It's coming up about 7 dollars more than what it should. I think it has something to do with the price of the set top box (which should be included), but what do I know...

:update2:

After two CSR tried for 30 minutes to get it changed, they told me they'd need to wait until the Supervisor comes in. They can't get the price right. It is the box. They can't get it to discount the box. They are supposed to call me when they figure it out... I've got the give them an 'A' for effort although you'd think TWC would think it should be an easy process...

Based on my experience, I'm guessing what they have to do is basically cancel everything on your account, and then add the new codes for the new package deal in, at least that's what they had to do for me.

Thanks for the tip browerjs. If they call me back saying they couldn't figure it out, I'll tell them that.

TWC didn't call back yet so I called them. Got a different CSR. She initially had trouble too. But I told her what you said about cancelling everything on the account and she tried it and it worked.

She cancelled everything except road runner and classic cable then built it up from there. Thanks browerjs!

Now I've got 6 more HD channels and am paying $2 less!

FYI,

I think someone here mentioned this before

Looks like TWC will be adding TNT (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20040518005704&newsLang=en)

Starting Friday.



PS that new digi 2000 tier worked out well for me

I was doing alacart minus the new HD tier

Added the 6 HD channels and digital Nav for 4 $ :)


Mad

Update

Just checked the Zap2it tv listing for North dayton digital

and it shows programming for TNTHD on Ch 756 , will have to check when I get home

I really hope they fix WHIO-DT before tomorrow night, I thought they were going to have it fixed "sometime Tuesday." I don't want to have to watch the season finale of CSI in SD.I guess I could get my lazy but up on the roof and work on the antenna to bring in the Cincy stations, bahh!

WHIO doesn't appear to be up right now unless my antenna is set up wrong.

Weirdscreen tonight for "That 70s Show" on WXIX, unless something changed (I switched to WRGT). I'm getting occasional video freezes on WRGT-DT 30-1, sort of like what WKEF-DT does. I wonder if it's a problem in their plant with those two stations.

On WHIO-DT --- I don't suppose he said WHICH Tuesday ;)

I've been getting occasional video freezes on WRGT-DT 30-1, as well.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
On WHIO-DT --- I don't suppose he said WHICH Tuesday ;)

Nope, he just said Tues. So I assumed this past Tuesday. I'm getting freezes on 30-1 as well.

WHIO-DT is back on the air presently (11:25am EDT 5/20). 41-2 audio is still broke.

-----------------------------

Except for the Dropped frames or "freezing" issue on WRGT-DT 30-1 I mentioned earlier during ST Voyager(and also noticed it during some of the movies over the weeked), that only is effecting my setup with the Zenith Box(not DTC-100/F38310) I haven't seen any freezing on 30-1 similar to what we have seen from WKEF-DT, on either setup here. I haven't watched them a lot though -- I did monitor them last night between 8:45 and 9:30 and didn't see any video freezing then, although I was more monitoring audio+just looking at it out of corner of my eye.

Jeff..

Could be the add'l power, could be the weather, but WHIO-DT is coming in like gangbusters, here. Usually, I have to either move the antenna or rig up the phased array. Would be nice if it holds...

Doc

Originally posted by Madb
Update

Just checked the Zap2it tv listing for North dayton digital

and it shows programming for TNTHD on Ch 756 , will have to check when I get home

After putting my Pioneer HD Cable Box in Diagnostic mode, TNTHD is showing up on 756, so i'm guessing it will go live tomorrow...

Also what CBS shows are broadcast in DD 5.1, I'm wondering if the extra downtime was caused by them going ahead and installing the equipment while it was down for the power upgrade...

Doc,

I can't tell any difference here with their signal, and I could be wrong, but I'd guess its the power. I also noticed that it looks like they might have improved their Channel Mask, as I'm no longer seeing adjacent channel interference from them to WRCX-LP 40, Dayton, as was the case before.

Browerjs,

I'm not sure, and I could be wrong but I think only thing CBS has sent in DD 5.1 so far has been some live productions(NFL football last year/etc).
Who knows, but I sort of doubt they've done anything except a Transmitter upgrade(probably a contractor was involved) -- Plenty of oppurtunity for "Murphy's Law" to go into effect with such an upgrade -- Probably makes it nice though that the Manufacturer of their Transmitter is Harris, just down the pike in Mason.

Here's who did WHIO-DT's original Transmitter install -- There's a pic on this page of the WHIO-DT transmitter after it was originally installed -- I'd guess It's probably a cabinet or 2 bigger now, as they probably added a IOT or 2 :

http://www.jmstittassociates.com/DTV.html

The following pages should give you an idea that Transmitter upgrades+maintenance at a high power TV station is more like refitting the engines on the Enterprise than it is upgrading a video card in a PC :

http://www.wcov.com/technical/maintenance/iotchange/iotchange.html

http://www.wcov.com/technical/maintenance/maintenance.html

http://www.wcov.com/technical/transmitter/transmitter.html

http://www.wzpxtv.com/specs.html

Just for fun --- some pics of WSTR Cincinnati's "Star Tower" being built -- With a Helicopter!(which is a bit unusual) :

http://hawkins.pair.com/startowercopter.html

I'm pretty sure their golf is in DD5.1 considering when the thurs/fri coverage on INHD is on, it comes in that way... Guess we'll see on Sat/Sun

Yes, as I said, Live Productions(i.e. HD Sports) -- I didn't mean to single out Football, hence the ETC. 1450khz could probably tell you more as he receives WBNS-DT, which does pass through DD 5.1 from CBS.

I don't believe any of the scripted shows or movies are sent in DD 5.1 by CBS(whereas ABC(WDTN-DT too) does), although as I said, I could be wrong(especially about the movies) and also, I'd think that will probably change as time goes on.

Yes, as I said, Live Productions(i.e. HD Sports) -- I didn't mean to single out Football, hence the ETC. 1450khz could probably tell you more as he receives WBNS-DT, which does pass through DD 5.1 from CBS.

I haven't seen DD 5.1 on any CBS scripted shows yet. I haven't checked lately when they had movies on, so I don't know if they pass 5.1 for movies.

They do however do live sports in DD 5.1. The NCAA HD games were in 5.1, as was the last golf telecast that I watched (although there usually isn't much activity on the surrounds at the golf course except for maybe water, breezes, or birds).

I will update if I see more 5.1 content.

Speaking of DD 5.1, I've also heard some good news concerning DD 5.1, and Fox+NBC :

Fox - The way the Fox HD Splicer system works(the A/V is encoded on the network level and isn't decoded before it reaches our receivers), we'll get DD 5.1 from WRGT-DT(and any Fox station doing Fox HD later this year) whenever Fox provides it after Fox Starts sending Fox HD later this year -- The affiliates thus don't need equipment capable of DD 5.1 for us to get it.

NBC - I'd heard NBC sent a episode of "American Dreams" as DD 5.1 earlier this year, I think only WNBC in NY did it(or knew about it, until it was posted in programming area at AVS). It's also been reported that more DD 5.1 is coming from NBC next season. I had heard here: http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=562&PN=1
That NBC, and WCMH-DT 14 Columbus will be sending DD 5.1 for HD Olympics coverage, and prime time shows next fall.

There's also info on it here: ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=3821985#post3821985 ).

I don't know when/if we'll get DD 5.1 via NBC from WKEF-DT(or WDTN-DT after they switch to NBC), or WLWT-DT.

Ok, this is interesting ... At 2pm fri, the movie "Traffic" is currently airing in HD on WKEF-DT 51-1 from NBC HD feed. I did see in another thread that it got bumped from the NBC schedule next week.

You gotta love WKEF-DT's autoswitcher for NBC HD --- Local ads are being inserted though on 51-1 in the place they would be if 51-1 was simucasting analog 22 currently.

Update 3pm: They're back to simulcast/upconvert of WKEF22 now. What I saw of it did look like a excellent transfer.

I wonder if they might be testing DD 5.1, as I had heard NBC was supposed to send Traffic DD 5.1 next week ... I did check, And WKEF-DT is sending DD 2.0 currently. Here's a quick+dirty Screenshot of "Traffic" on 51-1 w/digital camera(sorry about quality) from 2:11pm :

Thats interesting Jeff, so while the movie was showing it was in 2.0? Sorry I was a little confused by your post. Any steps the local stations take to add 5.1 to their programming I am all for. It really does seem like there is always some kind of work being done on the DTV stations, but oh well as long they are good upgrades, then they can work away.

Yes, as I said it was DD 2.0 during the movie from WKEF-DT. I don't know if the movie(which should not have been aired) was sent in DD 5.1 from NBC today, but I don't think WKEF has DD 5.1 capability, even if it was.

When I said "I wonder if they might be testing DD 5.1", I meant NBC+perhaps some of its affiliates, not necessarily WKEF. The info at below link should hopefully also help clear up your confusion:

http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=563&PN=1&TPN=1

BTW, I'm notsure, but I think WKEF-DT's automated switching wil automatically switch 51-1 to NBC HD feed if NBC sends a signal that tells it to switch, unless it is manually overridden.

Remember that NBC will be going to WDTN sometime around the end of August. WDTN has DD 5.1 capability already. :D

Big Surprise! Fox (And WRGT-DT on 30-1) is sending AI in Fox Widescreen tonight! A 16x9 first ... Looks good on WRGT-DT ... Doesn't look so good on WXIX-DT though, as they are in "weirdscreen mode" ...

Thread here on it in programming area:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=405827

.

YES - AI looked very good!

WHIO-DT 41-2 Audio

-- Noticed just past 6pm, 41-2 audio is currently working correctly -- First time in well over a month I have noticed it working correctly. I did send them a note about it a few weeks ago, even though I don't even use 41-2.

I DID notice that even analog 7 was sending Blank screen just a bit earlier(WPTD transmitter was down too and WPTO 14 analog, Oxford had a "techinal difficulties" screen up), I'm guessing due to the storms ... So, I'm guessing perhaps that WHIO either lost their STL, and/or lost power at the studios, and the Audio encoder(or something) for 41-2 FINALLY got the necessary "reboot" .... LOL ...

WHIO-DT down as of 12:52 Sunday the 30th.

Anybody else getting local channels over the Sat. ??

They just appeared sometime today.

Yes, on DirecTV at about 7:00am. (I think Dish has had them for several months). This is the result of the satellite launch last month.
They'll be free for 2 months.

1) Even though I live in Washington Twp - a couple of miles due East of downtown Centerville, and 3 or 4 miles due West of the mall - I've always been able to subscribe to the *Cincy* locals on Direct TV. I wonder if they will let me do the Dayton locals now? My mailing address is Dayton. Anyone else in the same boat? Guess I'll call.

2) TIVO now correctly maps WHIO-DT to 41-x, so my HD Tivo works with it!! I still have trouble with 16-6 and Fox mapping, In both of those cases, I have to do a fully manual recording, a la a VCR.

3) 16-5 now says 16 Ohio on my screen.

4) Hockey and basketball have sure looked good on WDTN-DT, the last few days. There is a big audio delay for me on the Hockey, right now, though. Once they stop showing the talking heads, it will be okay.

I'm seeing the audio lag, too. Rebooted the STB and it got a whole lot closer, but still not synched perfectly. Noticed it was off a little bit on Cincinnati, too. But the reboot fixed that one.

Doc

buckeye1010 I used to live in Centerville, on the 45458 zip code. For what ever reason Direct TV's database thinks that is part of the Cincy DMA. Dish Network's thinks it is part of Dayton's.

Buckeye1010,

That seems odd about the 16-6 remapping issue you're having, since it looks to me like they're sending PSIP info OTA correctly ... It's been fine here anyway -- wonder if maybe D*'s EPG isn't getting it right+matching up with the PSIP for some reason. When I looked last night though, they did have a blank screen on 16-6, but with audio, and 3 SD services running on 16-2~4. Seems fine tonight, though.

Also noticed they had made some changes to their SD programming services. 16again that was on 16-4 is now on 16-3, PBS kids on 16-4, Simulcast of WPTO 14 Analog is now gone off 16-5, replaced by Ohio related programming(they've had some Ohio supreme court cases on in the afternoons/etc) as well as some PBSYou on 16-5. I think they may have been working on some things over the past 3 weeks+ or so as well, as I did see some "new" bugs popping up from time to time, and missing audio and such occasionally here and there among other things(which has mostly seem to have cleared up in the past week+ or so) and that some of the new promos for thinkDTV/etc have run as 16x9 video "squeezed" into a 4x3 frame on their various programming services(just like "weirdscreen" from WXIX-DT, pretty much).

Anyway -- on their website, They've announed their new lineup of programming services for WPTD-DT(ThinkDTV16) and WPTO-DT 28(ThinkDTV14), although WPTO-DT not yet on the air from WXIX tower in Cincinnati, it doesn't look like. Here is info on it from their website :

http://www.thinktv.org/about/future.html

er824 - yep, 45458. Hope we can convince them we Do live in Dayton. I use the locals through DirectTV for SD Tivo.

Jeff - the problem with Dayton PBS and the HD Tivo, I think, stems from the lack of a 16-1. The problem actually exists for the whole set of 16-.x channels. The program data for 16-6 is listed under 16-5, the program data for 16-5 is listed under 16-4, etc. I have read of similar problems in other cities, where the .1 channel doesn't exist.

You're not going to have much luck about getting Dayton locals. DirecTv uses the Nielsen breakdowns by zip code.

THE NEW MASTER CONTROL ARE ON LINE FOR WPTD AND WPTO. WPTO WILL BE BROADCAST FROM THE TRANSMITTER SITE THIS COMING WEEK-END. LOOK OUT FOR MORE BUGS.

I picked up TWC HD service about a year ago just in time for football season only to find out they only carried NBC and FOX the neither of which were doing HD football at the time. I prompty cancelled because they told me I would be able to see ABC, NBC, FOX, and CBS in HD.

You guys have been talking about all the local stations. Has TWC updated there service to get ABC's and CBS's HD over the cable lines yet? Or are you guys doing OTA local pickup? Can TWC box do OTA channels? I could get this answered from TWC but I have learned to distrust what minimum wage CNSRs say.

Thanks for your time!

TWC cable carries CBS-HD(WHIO), FOX Widescreen(WRGT) upconverted to 720p and will be HD when FOXHD launches, NBC-HD(WKEF), PBS-HD, TNT-HD, and Discovery-HD. So currently only ABC-HD(WDTN) is the only local not offered by TWC. If you subscribe to the HD Tier, you also get INHD1, INHD2, HDNet, HDMovies, and if you get HBO or Showtime, HBO-HD, and SHO-HD are included. The box doesn't offer OTA reception. I have the Digipic2000 package which includes all the channels above including HBO and SHO On Demand for 60 bucks a month.

I see WHIO was splitting their feeds last night, with 41-1 running CBS HD from network while 41-2 was airing the ohmygoshwe'reallgonnadie Super Dooper Doppler wall-to-wall weather thunderstorm panic report.

I guess WDTN doesn't have this capability, as both 2-1 and 2-2 were doing the ohmygoshwe'reallgonnadie Super Dooper Doppler 2x wall-to-wall weather thunderstorm panic report (with 2-1 in SD). I wound up having to go to analog pickup of channel 9 in Cincy to see the start of the finals game last night. Eventually DTN did go over to HD with no weather bugs on 2-1 while keeping the bugs on 2-2.

I thought about calling DTN to ask for HD on 2-1, but figured that no one would pick up while they were in thunderstorm panic report mode. I can do without weather bugs as I have a perfectly good NOAA radio that will light up if there is a warning for my county.

Originally posted by 1450kHz


I thought about calling DTN to ask for HD on 2-1, but figured that no one would pick up while they were in thunderstorm panic report mode.

You should have called them and told them you had a weather report, and that they should put you on the air.... then, when they put you on...... hmmm

WDTN-DT DOES NOT drop from HD because of "weather bugs". I've noticed that Neither has any of the other Dayton Stations with HD/SD subchannels(Cincinnati stations w/o SD subchannels are another story).

If you have ever noticed, they will run HD on 2-1, with the weather bugs up on 2-2, occasionally putting the bugs up during commercials on 2-1. As for "live reports", that is understandably(IMO) another story. Stations are on the air to serve the PUBLIC INTEREST -- This interest (at least for some) includes emergency weather info.

But yeah, I would agree that IMO WDTN(and WHIO too) has, on certian occasions been overdoing the radar reports a bit as of late ... My guess is, up until this year, It's probably because we really haven't had a lot of rough weather the past few years. For WX info(Including local radar), personally I use WCPO-DT's Weather subchannel (9-2) quite often.

Anyhow, I didn't watch the entire game, but, except between 8-9pm, when I was looking, they had HD on 2-1 for the BB game. So, evidently it happened at other times as well, but the only time I saw the radar break in on 2-1 was between 8+9pm, and they noted during that time they would break in during the BB game if they thought it necessary.

Hey, it was SD with weather bugs when I started watching it. Not sure when they switched because I went to 2-2 instead so it wasn't squished (due to the lightning I was watching it on a 4x3 computer monitor via RGB instead of my DLP projector....don't want to risk damaging a $500 bulb).

At first I was getting wall to wall weather on 2-1 and 2-2 pre-empting the NBA game, so I went to WCPO 9 analog just to get the game instead of weather panic. I can't get WCPO digital at all.

But yeah, I would agree that IMO WDTN(and WHIO too) has, on certian occasions been overdoing the radar reports a bit as of late ...
WDTN is trying to show off their new toy I think. :D
That, and desperately trying to increase news ratings.

You should have called them and told them you had a weather report, and that they should put you on the air.... then, when they put you on...... hmmm
Naaaah, I don't do that kinda thing.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Hey, it was SD with weather bugs when I started watching it. Not sure when they switched because I went to 2-2

Well, of course anytime they have SD Video(Same as from analog+2-2) running on 2-1 for whatever reason, if there's a WX bug there it will show up. But so far anyway -- my point was, they haven't done it JUST because the WX bugs/etc. are there(except during commercials, even commercials from the Net feed). Also, Remember, HD switching WDTN switching is normally controlled from LIN facilities in Indianapolis -- so my guess is, they might have kept the SD up on 2-1 during certian times last night if they were expecting a WX break in, or they might have just "messed up".

I had noticed the Live weather reports between 8-9, which was when they said they wouldn't break in during the game unless it was absolutely necessary ... Next time I checked (not sure what time it was -- I think maybe around 10 or just a bit after or so), it was HD on 2-1, and a WX Bug on 2-2.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
I can't get WCPO digital at all.


WCPO-DT on the other hand, DOES drop from ABC HD (and did last night as well) FOR weather bugs or any locally inserted graphics -- because the switcher involved is slaved to the analog video whenever they insert local graphics/etc. I did notice that at some point last night(I think it was after WDTN-DT already had ABC HD, but not sure), WCPO-DT did finally switch to HD anyway(They CAN do it, although I don't think it's all that "easy" for them the way they have it set up), even though there was (I think) still a WX bug up on the analog. Must've got a bunch of calls or something ...

For the most part, WKRC-DT didn't drop from HD for their bug last night, except once that I noticed during the movie -- I'm not sure if that was a mistake+they forgot to switch back to HD after a break(they do manual switching, wheras WHIO-DT evidently uses a autoswitcher).

Speaking of WHIO, I don't know what they use to do switching on the UPN station (cable only) but there are frequent technical screw-ups on it. Lots of dead air, shows coming back from commercial with video and no audio, or audio and no video, and so on. I wonder if that's why D* is putting WBQC out of Cincy as the UPN station in the Dayton locals package. Bet that frosts them a bit down at Cox.

Anyway, the former UPN44/Miami Valley Channel has apparently moved down to 17 (and the basic cable tier) from 44....with 44 now having a slide up notifying of the change. Anyone know what might take that empty slot on the analog cable now?

Originally posted by 1450kHz
I wonder if that's why D* is putting WBQC out of Cincy as the UPN station in the Dayton locals package.

Don't know .. Seems odd though they are using WBQC -- A class A, LP station -- It's Grade B contour Goes No farther North than Northern Cincinnati -- I'm about 11 miles out from the edge of its Grade B Contour(and I'm still in Cincy DMA, BTW even though I'm only 12 miles from Dayton towers) ... And I get it, but its a little snowy.

You'd think they'd use WWHO, which is viacom O&O -- But, of course they are UPN primary+WB secondary(with HD from both, BTW).

Speaking of WWHO-DT ... They are booming in down here tonight, as are all the other Columbus DT's (except WTTE-DT -- They did move the meter a bit, but noise from WTVQ 36 lexington is "bugging them" a little too much - I've only seen WTTE-DT a couple of times with their LP signal ) Of course, WCMH-DT 14(78 Miles - Az. 70) is just blasting right through WPTO 14(18 miles - Az. 252) signal off the back of the antenna, and WOTH-LP 38 Cincy isn't hurting WOSU-DT either ...... WCMH-DT is also snowing up WPTO 14 a little(but not a lot) with my antenna aimed right at WPTO --- Seen that quite often --- Those two are especially really too close together IMO ...

Anyhow, I see that WBNS-DT is now supporting EIA-708 captions so my Zenith HDV420 can see them(It ONLY does EIA-708 captions) --- They are now only the second station I've seen support EIA-708 captions fully -- the other being WLWT-DT.

Attached is a low quality screenshot of WWHO-DT 46 (53-1 remap) from 10:00pm here (I finally get to see some WB HD!) :

Well, for PBS HD tonight -- WPTD-DT's HD encoder appears to be sending junk for video tonight, WCVN-DT (KET4 Covington, KY) is in "blank screen mode" most of the time with a occasional frame of video+bits of audio(And it's very rare to see them have problems) ... BUT I can watch HD Soundstage/Fleetwood Mac on WCET-DT Cincinnati (DD 5.1 audio too) ...

And people wonder why it is necessary to have TWO backups with some systems .... If it ever occurs that all 3 are having problems at the same time, then I suppose I should really start worrying ;) Although, of course then I wouldn't be able to tell whether it was a local or network issue!

Update 11:10pm : PBS HD from WCVN-DT currently fixed ....

WPTD-DT really hurt me with that! I have no PBS-HD back-up channel with my attic antenna and I was looking forward to that Soundstage Fleetwood Mac concert. Hopefully, they'll get it fixed before the replay scheduled for 10 PM on Saturday.

Kevin

WPTD-DT note:

WPTD-DT 16-6/PBS was still broke at 6pm when they first went back into "HD mode" tonight, but it was fixed by 7:30pm -- although there are 3 SD services up -- As "normal" 16-2(Think16), 16-3(Think again), but also 16-5 w/PBS You presently.

------------------
WKEF-DT note:

I have noticed each time I checked over the past week(since about sun or so - I checked L&O on Sun, and a couple tonight show's as well as ER last night), NBC HD was missing from WKEF-DT(During those times NBC HD was Fine from WLWT-DT). I sent them a note about it late last night, and they said they would check it out tonight.

Update 11:35pm : Leno in HD on both WKEF-DT/WLWT-DT tonight :)

For some reason, "Vegas" was not HD on either WKEF-DT or WLWT-DT tonight(at least when I was looking), although the "HD where available banner" was on screen at beginning of show -- Which, has occured before with a episode of "American Dreams", and "ER" and was a National issue -- Don't see any info anywhere about tonight's Vegas not being in HD elsewhere, however so I don't know if it was a Nat'l issue or local issue with both WLWT/WKEF ....

As I mentioned in another thread here, I'm planning to look for a closeout or open-box HD receiver from the local electronics stores. According to antennaweb.org, I should be able to use a standard set-top antenna from my location. I'm in the Linden Heights neighborhood, 5.6-5.9 miles from the broadcast towers for all (6) Dayton stations.

Anyone else in the general area or further away, for that matter, who's able to use a regular antenna ?? "Northeast" Kettering or "East" Beavercreek are pretty close to me too.

I'm in Beavercreek Township, and I can pick up all dayton locals using a $30 silver sensor antenna purchased at Best Buy.