I posted this in Cincy thread as well, but for those who aren't subscribed to Cincy thread:

What I assume is WPTO-DT 28 is apparently on the air at 7-7:30pm 6/24 -- However, can't decode anything on either receiver, can just see a "full bore" 8VSB signal on 28 from the South with a steady 100% on Zenith HDV420 Signal quality meter. Being co-located with WXIX-DT on the same tower seems to be working well, WXIX-DT 29 is a good, strong signal (100% Signal quality on Zenith as usual from them as well.)

Their Transmitter/antenna/Exciter and the 8VSB Channel coding(FEC/etc) seem to be working perfectly, but -- I'm Looking forward to actually being able to see something :)

What's the difference between the transmission of 22-1 and 45-1? I thought they are at the same location. I just got my new Zenith Silver Sensor and am pulling in all the locals at 100% strength with no problems except 45-1. It's showing up at 100%, but breaking up like mad.
BTW, I am in Kettering approx. 5.5 miles ESE from the transmitters.

Has anyone else noticed the pixelization and general video deterioration of the PBS Soundstage series on WPTD-DT, most recently with the Sheryl Crow concert? I think it's due to reduced bandwidth from several subchannels running at the same time.

When I check the broadcast stream using TSReader Lite, I'm seeing only 6-7 Mb/s for the recent Fleetwood Mac and Sheryl Crow concerts versus 10+ Mbs for last season's Alison Krauss and Union Station concert. I don't receive the Cincinnati stations but does anyone know if they have the same problem? IMHO, it pretty much negates the benefits of HDTV.

Kevin

Gindie,

Info on WRGT-DT here (The STA+CP listed for digital channel 30 - Not sure if they are at Full power or using the STA (Their CE did tell me a while back they were at full power) - You should be in a favorable spot for their directional antenna pattern -- I'm in their worst null to SW of their tower, but I get them like gangbusters, here. Easiest station to receive with a simple indoor antenna here :

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WRGT&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=

Info on WKEF-DT here : (See The STA + CP listed for Digital channel 51 - I do know they told me they were using the STA some time back because of a issue with their current transmitter -- Their STA isn't much less power than their full power allocation -- I'm thinking most probably wouldn't notice if they up the power a bit to full power ...

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?state=&call=WKEF&arn=&city=&chan=&cha2=69&serv=&type=0&facid=&list=0&dist=&dlat2=&mlat2=&slat2=&dlon2=&mlon2=&slon2=


I'd guess finding a "sweet spot" for best reception with the Silver Sensor might be your best bet. If you find out its something other than a reception issue on your end, ou could try contacting them + asking what they're currently running with if you like as well (FWIW, I haven't noticed any problems with their signal), or just ask them anyway if you want to know for sure(FCC site is usually quite accurate but not allways).

BTW, All the Dayton digital stations are on the same tower farm. WRGT-DT, WBDT-DT, and if I remember right WKEF-DT (along with analogs 26+45) broadcast from the same tower It's The one with the crossmember+3 masts on top, which used to be just WRGT 45 tower. WKEF analog(maybe the Digital too, not sure) is on a different tower a stone's throw away. - All the Dayton DTV trasmitting antennas are nice and high, and perhaps with a little moving the antenna around to find a good spot for all of them, I'd think you should have a good shot of being able to pull them all in fairly easily from your location.

------------------------------------
-----------------------------------

Originally posted by kVp
Has anyone else noticed the pixelization and general video deterioration of the PBS Soundstage series on WPTD-DT, most recently with the Sheryl Crow concert? I think it's due to reduced bandwidth from several subchannels running at the same time.

When I check the broadcast stream using TSReader Lite, I'm seeing only 6-7 Mb/s for the recent Fleetwood Mac and Sheryl Crow concerts versus 10+ Mbs for last season's Alison Krauss and Union Station concert. I don't receive the Cincinnati stations but does anyone know if they have the same problem? IMHO, it pretty much negates the benefits of HDTV.

Kevin

6-7Mps is the Maximum reading from the transport stream analyer? I believe it -- No WONDER it looks so bad lately ... yikes. I thought it looked bad before, and can believe it was at 10mb/s max as well ... For a short time when they first came on air last summer they were doing just 1 SD channel+HD, and it looked quite a bit better during that time ..(more later on why they HAVE to have at least 1 SD subchannel up) ....

Anyhow --- I noticed that the compression artifacts during PBS HD have been especially bad the past couple weeks or so. I mentioned it earlier, either in this thread or Cincy thread. Lately, anytime just about anything moves it's a blur of compression artifacts -- Sometimes now it looks really odd as you see the colors sort of "breaking up" in the little blocks.(not the best way to describe it, but I can't think of anything better). My OTA ANALOG looks better than that when things, people or animals in the forest move or the whitewater runs/etc ....

This is going to get a little loong --- as it's a complicated issue to address -- hope I don't repeat too much that you already know but here goes ---Really, I don't care how many bits it takes as long as it looks AS good as it CAN look(100% of the time) if given everything possible(for 1080i), and as long as it "works" with my current receivers ...(meaning MPEG2 Video)

I think the SD subchannels are part of the problem -- however -- They've been doing it all along with the same number of services(supposed to be 2SD+1HD I think, but sometimes its 3SD+ 1HD), but it has gotten much worse in last couple of weeks or so.

As reported by DTV insider earlier in this thread -- They've been working out bugs and such lately, so maybe that's the reason for the change. Lets hope so anyway, as they could be allocating bandwidth beyond just the oppurtunistic sort to other stuff besides the SD/HD services(datacasting/etc) .HD/SE Encoders don't need to use ALL of the bandwidth all the time -- just usually in relatively short periods(which can crop up at any time) does 1080i HD need everything, hence much of the time there is oppurtunistic bandwidth available for other uses ..... Sending programming/etc. to schools for instance ....

They are saying that there are more advanced MPEGII HD encoders out there now(along with using Stat mux) that can give as good quality HD video at 13mb/s with 1080i as older encoders do at say, 17-18mb/s (there is 19.383 Mb/s total which they can use -- butsome of it has to go to Audio+PSIP. I'll believe it when I see it, and I haven't seen it yet. 720p seems to work just fine at 15mb/s or so, though. I don't know what encoder WKEF-DT is using with their SD subchannel, but I think it looks pretty good at 1080i for whatever reason. I can't say I can't tell the difference between them and WLWT-DT NBC Cincinnati(which gives HD everything)during bandwidth demainding programming, but it's nowhere near as drastic a difference as comparing WHIO-DT to WKRC-DT(now allocating HD everything -- Webhopper is gone), or among the PBS HD affiliates.

As for Cincinnati PBS -- WCET-DT in Dec 2002/Early Jan 03 Gave PBS HD everything -- It was just a single HD service at time -- and it was absolutely beautiful ... There was Nary a hint of Compression artifacts during the most bandwidth demanding source material, even if you press your nose right up to the screen. During those 2 months, they also ran the HD throughout their hours of operation (8am~11pm) -- That was before the Analog simulcast rule went into effect though .. They are required to simulcast 75% of their analog programming on the digital, so they have to have at least 1 SD subchannel, now. Anyhow ... In Spring 03, they began doing something similar to what WPTD-DT does -- 4 SD subchannels during the Day, 1080i HD + 2 SD subchannels in prime time. Compression artifacts are a problem with them -- BUT it does look better as I believe they are using Stat Mux(HD gets "priority bandwidth" it looks like when it needs it -- the SD services suffer at odd times though) ....

WCVN-DT KET Covington, KY, IMO has the best HD PQ from PBS HD currently. They also run 2SD services+ HD in prime time, 4~6 SD services the rest of the time -- However, they send HD at 720p, which works better with Multicasting -- Doesn't quite need as much as 1080i -- I had heard from one of their engineeers who posts on Cincy thread that they also do Stat Mux, although I'm not sure if they've added the HD to the Stat Mux yet -- You can't tell it if they did -- not saying it wouldn't look better at with no multicasting and at 1080i, and you do occasionally see the "little blocks"(We often call it "macroblocking", although that's not really quite "technically" correct) but for the most part nowadays, the vast majority of hd programming, even the demanding portions looks great, but just not quite as much detail as with 1080i.

Have a couple of questions (though I'm not sure this is the right thread).

First, every once in awhile my HD video will "freeze" while the audio will continue. After 2 - 10 seconds, the video will 'jerk' (as though displaying pictures 3-4-3-4-3-4...) and then catch up with the audio. Is this most likely the transmitter, my STB or my TV? Doesn't seem dependent on station, but I haven't tracked it that close.

Second, I live in Fbn with a tower & VHF/UHF antenna (amplified - two receivers) pointed at Dayton antenna farm. Local stations boom in. Should I be able to pick up Cincy without rotating antenna?

Carl

WKEF-NBC and WRGT-FOX, both do this every so often.

hey guys, I am finally going to go up on the roof to "extract" my old unused antenna. I just wanted everyone here to know that if I fall this just might be my last post on these forums. Take a look at what I have to do, the roof is so steep and boy its a long way down. So hopefully it all goes well......

Good luck, but just in case: how long do you feel is an appropriate length of time before your wife starts dating, again? ;)

Seriously, be careful.

Funny stuff. I can always count on you guys to "look out" for me.

Second, I live in Fbn with a tower & VHF/UHF antenna (amplified - two receivers) pointed at Dayton antenna farm. Local stations boom in. Should I be able to pick up Cincy without rotating antenna?

Carl, I'm in Fairborn too. I think there's about a 20-30 degree spread between where I need to point for Cincy and where the Dayton towers are, but I get the Dayton stations fine off the side of the antenna if I point at Cincy. WRGT doesn't quite come in that way, but it works off the back of my second antenna which is pointed at Columbus.

Nightwatchman,

Thanks for the information, Jeff. That pretty well explains the deterioration in HD video quality from WPTD-DT. I'm still not sure why it seems even worse over the last few weeks, though. Sure wish I could get WCVN-DT KET but it isn't going to happen with my attic antenna.

If WPTD-DT must continue running two SD subchannels during prime time, I wish they would rerun the HDTV programming after midnight with more bandwidth allocation. Otherwise, I 'll just have to hold out for Sat Mux or improvement in their HD encoding. If they chose to go to 720p, that would be fine with me since my projector doesn't do 1080i anyway.

Kevin

Does anyone know whether or not the local DTV/HD feeds on Time Warner are sent as "in the clear" QAM?

I'm talking WRGT/WKEF/WHIO/WPTD, not the cable nets.

I'm thinking of installing a Fusion card (does ATSC/NTSC/QAM) into my HTPC for a more seamless HD recording solution than my T165 box + CapDVHS or DCTrecord.

A little off topic (NO HD content), but I thought I'd tell everyone that D* called me yesterday to tell me that I *will* be able to get the Dayton locals later next month. Prior to this, they have told me that I am in the Cincy area! I live 3 miles down the street from the Dayton mall! LOL!

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Does anyone know whether or not the local DTV/HD feeds on Time Warner are sent as "in the clear" QAM?

I'm talking WRGT/WKEF/WHIO/WPTD, not the cable nets.

I'm thinking of installing a Fusion card (does ATSC/NTSC/QAM) into my HTPC for a more seamless HD recording solution than my T165 box + CapDVHS or DCTrecord.

I'm not sure about the QAM feed, but on a recording note, I've been talking to TWC-WOH director of engineering and the HD-DVR is supposed to be deployed at the end of this month... don't know if that would help you or not.

Just a quick clairification to my post above:

Some of us people living in the zipcode of 45458 (Washington Twp) - we have always (at least for the last 4 or 5 years) been able to get the CINCINNATI locals, which was cool. However, once they started the Dayton locals, we would call D* and they would say "No - you get the Cincy locals" - didn't matter than I was 3 miles from the Dayton mall.... Finally they figured it out.

Sorry for the lack of HD content. I'm done.

I'm not sure about the QAM feed, but on a recording note, I've been talking to TWC-WOH director of engineering and the HD-DVR is supposed to be deployed at the end of this month... don't know if that would help you or not.

Not really worried about HD-DVR, since I can already record HD off the firewire on the T165, and SD off the analog cable hookup.

Is there a problem with channel 2's broadcast? I noticed last night and again this morning that the picture was not centered top to bottom. I know it is NOT my problem as channel 9 (and all others) was ok.

What's up?

John

2-1 looks fine here. Of course, they're showing "Family Feud" so I can't A/B it with anybody, but the framing on that and the commercials looks OK.

Doc

I noticed it also.

I haven't noticed but I have not tried Channel 2 lately. (I generally don't watch much network TV except for sports.) I did catch the All-Star game last night (Fox WS only here, apparently the "HD test" wasn't using the splicer and only covered a few markets).

I've got the Fusion HDTV-3 QAM/ATSC/NTSC card on order. Will report back as to what (if anything) is in the clear on TWC.
I decided a PC card solution would work better than my T165 to CapDVHS via Firewire recording kludge that I'm currently using to record/timeshift HD, plus I'm concerned that the new "broadcast flag" firmware for the T165 would somehow render it useless for PC recording (while PC cards made before 7/1/05 can ignore the flag).

Bumping this one to the top....

I was able to install the Fusion card today. It appears TWC is sending at least the local channels in the clear with QAM256. I tried a scan but the software crashed before it completed....however I was able to get a few of the locals (WHIO and WKEF I think....).

Got a bunch of blank channels (signal but no sound or video), I think those were the encrypted ones.

I noticed the WDTN centering issue on Early(very early about 4am) Monday morning(It was like that on the analog station as well), but later in the day it was fixed.

Also noticed that WPTD-DT(and WPTO-DT) are occasionally putting bugs on their program services now --- The 16HD bug on 16-6 has had a "interesting" placement so far .... Luckily, it wasn't there when I was watching a late night showing of the American HD "Mystery" special 2 nights ago ...

After a few scans and some tinkering, I have the following channels available as "in the clear" QAM256 on Time Warner.

WCET + associated subchannels
WPTD + associated subchannels
WPTO + associated subchannels (assigned under WPTD)
WDTN
WHIO
WKEF (kept crashing the Fusion software though)

Interestingly, no sign of WRGT unless it's a sub under WKEF (subchannel assignments are a bit weird on QAM).

Looks like everything else is encrypted.

When did TW Dayton/ W OH Pick up HD from WDTN-DT? This is the first I've heard of it, first time I've heard of TW Dayton carrying WCET-DT as well.

On the TW boxes anyway, If I recall correctly I think WRGT-DT is (or was anyway) at ch 745.

Notice that aspect ratio for Fox Programming (MadTV currently) is "messed up" on WRGT-DT 30-1 presently(7/11/04 - 11:30PM) --- The Reds Game this afternoon was fine when I checked it in the 1st inning .... A slightly different version of the Fox Weirdscreen we are used to from WXIX-DT, but close(looks like they have their AR Converter set for something "like" approx 14x9,). It's appears as "squeezed"(not quite as much as from WXIX-DT, AND part of top+bottom of frame is missing) --- The problem is not in your set.

Local/Syndicated 4x3 programming is correct AR where W:H ratio is concerned, but is being sent as cropped/zoomed slighly to approx. 14:9. I'm guessing someone is "pressing buttons" on their Encoder/Format/AR Converter(probably all in the same box for them, but don't know for sure) today, unless it hiccuped on its own -- At least hopefully that's it, and not some measure they've taken to address any complaints about the "stretched", or "wide fat people" during local/Syndicated programming -- Granted, it would be nice if they could make the necessary "switches" to send proper AR for BOTH Fox Digital programming+Local Syndicated programming on 30-1, but look what that gets us with WXIX, and, it won't be too much longer now that FOX HD will make Fox "weirdscreen" a thing of the past anyway .... And, we DO allways have Local/syndicated programming from WRGT in correct AR on 30-2 .... .... Anyhow, If this nonsense keeps up, I'll contact them when the engineer that I've been talking to there gets back from vacation ....

BTW --- WXIX-DT is sending their "standard" version of Weirdscreen presently .... I pretty much gave up on them after 2 years or so of pestering them about it .....

Man, Fox HD+their splicer system, with which Fox will Control the AR(I'm sure it will be proper) for all Fox programming can't get here soon enough ;-) ...

I did notice the presence of "Weirdscreen" on WRGT yesterday.

The QAM channels don't map the same on my Fusion card as opposed to the Time Warner box. I found out that I can't "see" channels that aren't sending PSIP data. For example, WKEF and WRGT occupy the same QAM slot. When I tune to it I get WRGT, but when I go to the submenu to choose the channels from within that QAM slot, I see WKEF as an option but WRGT is not there. This gives me the impression that the Fusion card doesn't know what to show if a channel is not sending any PSIP data i.e. WHIO or WRGT. The only reason I can get WRGT is that it is "first" in the slot or something.

I get the feeling WHIO is under the QAM slot for WDTN, but it isn't "first" in the slot, so the card goes to WDTN by default.

I do get PSIP pass-through and remap for WPTD, WDTN, and WCET, and they work just fine.

Here's what I have so far...
89-1 WDTN HD / ABC (2-1)
89-2 ??? (I think WHIO may be hiding here and not showing up due to no PSIP)
93-1 WRGT / FOX
93-2 WKEF / NBC (tagged as "WKEF_22" and remaps to 51-1)
99-1 WPTD/WPTO (tagged as "16HD", remaps to 16-1 with channel names in submenu)
101-1 WCET (tagged as such, remaps to 48-1 with channel names in submenu)

A bit of a Conundrum with the PSIP stuff right now, concerning stations which aren't sending it ---

It is NOT a requirement that stations even Send PSIP -- At all, even though they are trying to make it a requirement(which would probably be a good idea, considering).

Still, since it ISN'T a requirement yet, I think hardware manufacturers need to design their products to work whether or not a station is sending PSIP. Don't really know how that would work though when it comes to QAM and supporting how every cableco does things ..

But, I guess the "answer" that is "really" going to work is, Stations really need to be sending(Properly sending) PSIP info - Including Channel remapping info.

Personally, I don't care for the Channel remapping via PSIP-- I'd rather they not do it, and I like being able to turn it off on my DTC-100, but that's just my personal opinion. My understanding is, Broadcasters Wanted it so they could keep the same channel branding/etc. on their digital station(even after analog shut off) regardless of which RF channel they actually end up using. It *could* be a good thing someday, as for one thing, I suppose everyone, no matter what the cableco/etc, would see the station on the same PSIP remapped channel/subchannel.

I think the problem on my end would be solved if Dvico would write better drivers and software. I can see the subchannels fine on QAM slots that don't have anyone sending PSIP data. I'll do some investigation and see if there is a way I can disable the PSIP remapping or try re-scanning the channels.

Has WRGT been having some major lip syncing problems over the last week, when i tuned into the allstar game last Tues it was way off. Then when i tuned into Casino last night it was still off, I checked this both OTA and via Cable. Also last night during Casino was the first time i had watched WRGT since adjusting the overscan on my TV. There were black bars present on the sides, and the fox logo seemed to be lower. Every other HD channel i have watched there have been no problems? Was i seeing weirdscreen last night, or are my overscan settings just screwed up?

You were seeing Weirdscreen last night as described farther above. I sent them a note yesterday about it -- If they don't fix it soon, I'd encourage others to contact them and ask them to "fix it" as well.

I just checked it, and they've changed it a little bit from what it was last few nights --- 4x3 local Syndicated is now being sent as crop/zoomed to 16x9 instead of approx 14x9 as it was. Unless they change someting, if left as it is presently AND they send the Fox Widescreen/Digital "feed" off Of Fox RX C(Which is sent by fox as 16x9 NTSC Video -- or in other words "anamorphic" -- Sidebars are added at network level for 4x3 programming), it will still result in Weirdscreen(tall, skinny people) and a portion of the frame will be missing(i.e. part of Fox bug will be cut off, probably a little more than it was last night). Local/Syndicated programming should appear as 4x3 stretched(no zoom/crop) to 16x9 in order for Fox digital Programming to be displayed in proper aspect ratio, unless they properly switch(probably manually) to send proper aspect ratio for BOTH Local/Syndicated and Network -- It can't be set the same for both and work, I suppose unless they can find a way to "process" the local/syndicated programming and make it "anamorphic"(I.e. "squeeze it") before it gets to their AR Converter/Format Converter for their Digital station ....

-----------------------

Update: As of 1pm EDT 7/20 -- Presently -- looks like 30-1 is now "set" for proper aspect ratio for Fox programming(Including Fox Widescreen).

----------------

Missed the post about weirdscreen and the reds game the other day. I'm just glad it wasn't something i had done messing with my TV's service menu, (although i wrote all the default convergence settings down, would take me quite a while to revert)... Were you noticing any audio sync problems withing the past week on 30-1? Are those fixed as well now?

Browerjs,

A/V sync has been fine here from WRGT-DT when I've checked it, but I haven't had a lot of time to watch or monitor anything as I've been very busy.

I did notice that when they had things set to send 14x9(approx) last few days, I was getting more dropped video frames on 30-1 with about most all non-fox programming --- When they have it set for 16x9 and proper AR for Fox programming, I also get this "dropped frames"/Jittery looking video" issue ONLY during certian programming(Such as ST:Voyager and some movies on Weekends - Never during Fox Programming or any local programming/ads) This is an issue I see here ONLY with my HDV420 Receiver(no matter what display device I output to, or if I output at 1080i/720p/480p/480i), It doesn't occur at all with the DTC-100, which seems odd. I know they've worked on this issue where some "fine tuning"/etc of their encoder is concerned, but so far that I've noticed it hasn't worked. This issue doesn't occur at all on 30-2 -- And the ONLY other place I've seen it is from WSYX-DT Columbus -- but in their case, only during certian ABC HD programming -- so I'm "guessing" its some sort of "weird" bug relating to their specific model of encoder or software or some other equipment and this specific decoder(HDV420).

It will be interesting to see if it's still an issue once Fox starts sending HD (Due to the way the Fox HD splicer works -- The station's encoder is only really used for Local/syndicated programming -- The actual encoding for the Fox HD is done at the network level+it isn't necessary for the station to decode+recompress it(although a local Bug CAN be inserted) -- DD 5.1 will be passed through from Fox as well, doesn't matter if the local affiliate has DD 5.1 capability or not, we'll still get it. I presume when FOX HD distribution system becomes "active", WRGT-DT can quit using Fox Widescreen distribution system, and they'll then be able to send proper AR (4x3) for Local/Syndicated programming on 30-1, and I suppose at that point its at least possible they could also drop 30-2 (or put different programming service on it).

Anyhow -- Sounds like your overscan/deflection/geometry settings should be OK ... It would really be great if say, WPTD-DT could send some test patterns on 16-6 instead of "blank screen" when they are not in HD mode, as, other than via the receiver I don't have a way to send 1080i test patterns to my display to do some "fine adjustments" for geometry that pertain to 1080i service mode geometry settings ... I suppose even test patterns on a SD subchannel which I could upconvert/output at 1080i would work well .. WCPO-DT's weather channel was very useful for overscan/etc (this set's 1080i settings are just "offsets" of the 480i settings, so you don't have to change it much anyway), but I think Vertical lineearity settings for 1080i might need some very, very slight adjustment - I'd really need a cross-hatch pattern coming from a 1080i source to make sure, or to make the adjustment.

Watching WRGT tonight it seems that the actual FOX programming is out of sync, but during commericals that are local (stretched 16:9) they are in sync? Anyone wanna test to see if i'm the only one?

Thanks,

I'm seeing the same thing (TWC).

It's been like this for me for about a week. FOX programming is off, WRGT is on. Nitewatchman, is there any way you can send a note to your contact at WRGT to see if this can be fixed?

BrowerJS+Vader --

WRGT/WKEF Engineer Thom Fowler asked me to pass along his thanks to you for reporting on the audio issue you are having with WRGT to the forum, and also that they are working on the issue. He monitors the forum and this thread, especially when they make any changes. He contacted me this morning, BTW, I didn't have a chance yet to send him anything about the audio issue.

He also mentioned that he thought you guys did a great job explaining the problem -- he said, "the simpler the explanation the better".

I wanted to see if anyone else was having this same problem with TW-WOH FOXHD745. Whenever I go to that channel and then pull up the guide or infor screen the video will freeze on the screen and go to some weird pattern, but the audio will continue on fine. This does not happen with any other channel and I will have to unplug the box and plug it back in to get it working again. I can't just restart the box. I have the Pioneer 3510. I am assuming that this is an equipment problem but was wondering if it could possibly be some sort of transmission problem and others had expierenced it as well. If i just change to 745 and don't use info or guide I can watch it indeinfitly with out problems.

Thanks

I noticed some video "hangs" during the news last night but I think the problem was on my end (I was tinkering and using my Fusion QAM decoder card.)

Occasionally though, the video on WKEF HD (51-1) and WRGT HD (30-1) channels will freeze for a few seconds while the audio continues to play. I've noticed this both via OTA tuner (Samsung T165) and cable QAM feeds, so I think it's a problem at the station.

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
He monitors the forum and this thread, especially when they make any changes. This might seem like a stupid question, but do they not monitor their broadcast, via a set-top HD receiver and an HDTV, just like a regular viewer would ??

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Occasionally though, the video on WKEF HD (51-1) and WRGT HD (30-1) channels will freeze for a few seconds while the audio continues to play. I've noticed this both via OTA tuner (Samsung T165) and cable QAM feeds, so I think it's a problem at the station.

That's been happening on 51-1/WKEF-DT during NBC HD for a long time(never seen it on WLWT-DT Cincinnati), almost as long as they've been on air -- If I recall correctly, seems like I first noticed it around Fall 2002 or so. I don't think it ever happened on WRGT-DT until they started doing Fox Widescreen, and on WKEF-DT, I don't recall ever seeing it except during NBC HD(probably during upconverts at the network level too).


Originally posted by hall

This might seem like a stupid question, but do they not monitor their broadcast, via a set-top HD receiver and an HDTV, just like a regular viewer would ??


Good question! Currently, I don't know to what extent WRGT/WKEF has that capability. A couple years back when I contacted them on an "issue", they did tell me that they had a DTV receiver hooked up to a TV "in the basement" w/rabbit ears that they could use.

As for monitoring the digital station(s) from the control room(which would be a great idea IMO), that's probably not as simple as it might seem it should be. For one thing, the MCO(master control operator) already likely has a lot of multitasking to do --- Here, We are talking about the need to monitor TWO analog stations (WKEF/WRGT) and TWO digital stations (WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT) ... Obviously, there is no way for instance, they could monitor all 4 audio feeds at the same time ...

Also, it may be difficult for them to just have enough "Room" to fit in the equipment(in the control room) necessary to monitor the DTV stations. As for "properly" monitoring all aspects of the DTV station's signal(which would take more than just a HD monitor+Consumer STB) -- that issue might even a little more "problematic" for various reasons at this time ....

Also, even if they were doing off-air monitoring -- some issues can be "receiver model specific", and they can't go out and buy every DTV receiver model on the market and "continually" test them whenever they change anything ... the "Big" networks can (and do) do this, but every station can't to make sure their equipment/etc. works with everything ...

Hence why it is helpful to them (and us) to get accurate reports from us - either directly or via a forum such as this.

-----------------------------

One thing that would/will probably be of some help also would be if/when station employees AND clients(advertisers) are watching HD+DTV from home ... Especially, say the GM's and those on Engineering staff ...

These problems concerning monitoring the DTV station(along with the analogs currently) is not unique to WKEF/WRGT, Either. WHIO-DT for example, went for MONTHS with audio problems on their 41-2 subchannel. I tried contacting them(w/o any luck) about it several times, but it only got "fixed"(apprently) when they lost power(due to storms/power outage), and apparently the audio encoder was reset ....

Just got in at 9:45pm, but A/V sync and everything else has been working just fine here on both receivers for "Legally Blonde" in Fox WS(and OAR 2.35:1 BTW) from WRGT-DT 30-1 for last 8 minutes ...

Update: ... 2 seconds after I sent that (around 21:54) looked like WRGT-DT transmitter went down for a short bit -- WKEF 22 analog was off air "intermittantly" as well ... but All seems "back to normal" at 22:00:30 EDT, they were just a few seconds late on WKEF-DT switching to NBC HD feed for ER ...

These problems concerning monitoring the DTV station(along with the analogs currently) is not unique to WKEF/WRGT, Either. WHIO-DT for example, went for MONTHS with audio problems on their 41-2 subchannel. I tried contacting them(w/o any luck) about it several times, but it only got "fixed"(apprently) when they lost power(due to storms/power outage), and apparently the audio encoder was reset ....

WHIO appears to a.) not pay any attention to their digital station at all (except when they were promoting it on Time Warner for the Super Bowl and NCAA's) and b.) does a great job of being non-responsive to attempts by viewers to reach them. Their attitude makes me glad I can pull in WBNS here. :D

As for Fox, did they move their bug up from its normal position into the movie frame? Sure would have been nice if they had just left it down in the black bar at the bottom. What was on the analog during the movie....a pan and scan version or did they zoom and center cut the 2:35:1 frame?

I didn't see the cutouts on Fox/NBC but then again I think I had turned the TV off at that time.

On WHIO I know what you are saying, but FWIW, at least they have always switched pretty much immediately to the HD feed when it was missing and I called their Newsroom to remind them ... They've allways been quite polite and seemed quite appreciative when I've called, as well .. which I do sometimes even though(for bandwidth demanding HD anyway) If I'm watching I'll be watching on WKRC-DT since they give HD everything possible bandwidth wise now ...

Originally posted by 1450kHz
As for Fox, did they move their bug up from its normal position into the movie frame? Sure would have been nice if they had just left it down in the black bar at the bottom. What was on the analog during the movie....a pan and scan version or did they zoom and center cut the 2:35:1 frame?


I didn't have enough time to look at the analog closely enough, other than to notice it was 4x3. I've looked into this before though when FOX has sent a 2.35:1 OAR version of a movie(TPM, and X-men are a couple I've caught in OAR from Fox WS), and I think in those cases it was P&S on the analog, with the bug being in its normal place instead of where it would be if they would have done a center cut ...

Which would seem to indicate that last night, they probably sent commands to the affiliate's receiver(RX C) for the Digital programming(they can do that) to use a different feed(they use many for NFL for example) for the OAR version, whearas "normally" (according to people that work for Fox and post on AVSforum) what comes off the analog is from the same feed as the digital programming, but just a center cut of it when the programming is 16x9 ... If this is the case(which I suspect), thus the bug would have to have been moved for the OAR movie from its normal spot ... Also, If it would have been a center cut on the analog, seems like the bug would have had to been "lower" than usual on the analog ....

Originally posted by 1450kHz
WHIO appears to a.) not pay any attention to their digital station at all (except when they were promoting it on Time Warner for the Super Bowl and NCAA's) and b.) does a great job of being non-responsive to attempts by viewers to reach them. Their attitude makes me glad I can pull in WBNS here.
I had a name and e-mail address of some engineer at WHIO a year or two ago.... I e-mailed them about their channel as well as the other Dayton channels being available on DirecTV or Dish. At the time, their website had a general contact e-mail listed which I used. Someone then forwarded it to him. He replied and was quite open and helpful. Too bad I can't find his address anymore....

Just lost Video+Audio from NBC HD for "Vegas" at 10:16pm 7/23--- It apparently is a Network issue, as it happened on both WKEF-DT and WLWT-DT. WLWT-DT switched to SD feed after a few minutes, 51-2+the analogs are fine.

Update 10:24PM : HD just came back from 51-1 -- did get a frame or two between 10:16+10:24 from 51-1 .... Probably take a few mintues or so before they'll notice and switch back to the HD feed on WLWT-DT ...

Has been some rough space weather lately(solar activity - even a CME I think - which can effect satellites when it reaches earth) ...

SD video on 51-1 via OTA and cable has looked rather blurry lately. Satellite issues there too maybe?

Any ABC affiliates in the area going to carry the "News Now" channel?

I wasn't really planning to watch it, just wondering where to expect degraded HD bandwidth...

Somehow I get the feeling WDTN won't be carrying it. ;) Come to think of it, I wonder who will have ABC in Dayton after the end of next month?

Originally posted by 1450kHz

Come to think of it, I wonder who will have ABC in Dayton after the end of next month?

I was thinking the same thing .... Haven't heard anything ... I keep looking for news though, including in Dayton Business journal which broke the story about WDTN going to NBC ...

WDTN has been "counting down" the days to the switch to NBC on their local News though ... They said WDTN would be NBC on August 30th ...

tick tock ....

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Any ABC affiliates in the area going to carry the "News Now" channel?


Yep -- (edited my last post<g>) WDTN-DT has it on 2-2(remapped SD service, normally SD simulcast of analog) presently -- Jim Atkinson, CE at WDTN-DT sent me this about it earlier this evening :

Jeff,

Hope you are well. Just a quick note to let you know about our plans
for airing ABC News One on 2-2.
We will air coverage of the DNC from 12N on 26th through the closing.
After that time we will return to our regular set-up.

Thanks,

Jim

Pretty low bitrate, too. Obviously designed for the web. Doubt any station carrying this would have to devote enough bandwidth to affect HD at all.

THE WORD ON THE STREET IS THAT WKEF SIGNED THE CONTRACT LAST WEEK TO BE THE ABC AFFILIATE. BUT THAT IS A RUMOR.

I thought I read in that same Dayton Business Journal article that WDTN and WKEF were basically swapping networks.... Dayton is a decent-size TV market and I can't imagine *not* having an ABC affiliate.

Rumours are good when no other info is available :)

Hall,

Nope. All it said concerning WKEF was that they were in talks with ABC, according to a Sinclair(owns WKEF) SEC filing. Here's the article :

http://dayton.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/2004/03/01/daily25.html

The following press release was posted on Sinclair's website today (here: http://www.sbgi.net/press/release_2004727_76.shtml ) - Let's hope they have ABC HD ASAP August 30th or soon afterwards as well :

WKEF-TV to Become ABC Affiliate

BALTIMORE (July 27, 2004) - Sinclair Broadcast Group, Inc. (Nasdaq:
SBGI) announced today that it's television station, WKEF-TV (channel 22) in
Dayton, Ohio, will switch from its current NBC network affiliation to the
ABC Television Network beginning August 30, 2004, after the Summer Olympics conclude. WKEF-TV's current syndicated and local news programming will continue to be aired on channel 22.

"We are very excited about our upcoming switch to ABC," commented Bill
Ross, General Manager of WKEF-TV. "As the NBC affiliate, we were concerned going into the Fall line-up about the prospect of having to compete against ABC with their growing popularity of 'Good Morning America,' and with NBC's recent loss of such big hits as 'Friends' and 'Frasier' and the stepping down of network news anchor, Tom Brokaw. Our affiliation with ABC presents us with a more exciting program line-up. In addition to continuing to receive Dayton's NewsSource, the market's source for local news, viewers this Fall can look forward to the NFL with the addition of 'Monday Night Football,' Disney family entertainment, and a new Fall schedule."

"We look forward to an association with WKEF-TV in serving Dayton's television viewers," added John Rouse, ABC's Senior Vice President Affiliate Relations. "ABC may have switched stations, but viewers can still receive their favorite ABC news, sports and entertainment programming by tuning to our new affiliate WKEF-TV channel 22 beginning August 30th."

WKEF-TV, which signed-on the air in 1964, will celebrate 40 years of
bringing quality, entertaining programming to the Dayton market. Dayton's
NewsSource, airing weeknights at 6:00pm and 11:00pm, has served as the
market's source for local news for the past 25 years. As the ABC affiliate in Dayton, WKEF-TV will air such popular programs as "Good Morning America," "Monday Night Football," "Extreme Makeover," and ABC
World News Tonight." It will also maintain its existing popular syndicated
program line-up including "Extra," "Judge Judy," and "Millionaire." Among
the exciting new programs coming this Fall to WKEF-TV will be "The Insider," "The Benefactor," "Wife Swap," "Lost," and "The Tony Danza Show."

The ABC Television Network, which is owned by the Walt Disney Company, serves 225 affiliated television stations nationwide with world-class programming that includes many of the most widely viewed news,
entertainment, sports series and specials. In addition to the network's
regularly scheduled programming and special broadcasts, viewers turn to
ABC's primetime entertainment for a variety of programming genres,
including top-quality movies and entertainment specials.

Sinclair Broadcast Group, Inc., one of the largest and most diversified
television broadcasting companies, will own and operate, program or provide sales services to 62 television stations in 39 markets, after pending
transactions. Sinclair's television group includes FOX, WB, ABC, CBS, NBC,
and UPN affiliates and reaches approximately 23.9% of all U.S. television
households. For more information, please visit Sinclair's website at
www.sbgi.net

Speaking of the ABC/NBC flip, is WDTN officially part of the Time Warner HD channel lineup?

I had been getting them as clear QAM on TWC, sharing RF channel 91 with WHIO. However, I couldn't get them the other day, so I'm not sure if they've been moved, I'm having problems with my Fusion software (it has trouble handling PSIP when two stations share a QAM carrier), or TWC has made some change or they weren't supposed to be there.

We don't get WDTN on TWC

Hmmm....maybe someone at the station saw my post and called TWC. Oops. :(

I had been getting them using a Fusion 3 QAM card. They were sharing RF channel 91 with WHIO. WKEF and WRGT were on 93.

Just noticed that WHIO-DT is also currently running DNC coverage on 41-2 .....

Update: According to this, WBNS-DT Columbus is multicasting this as well :

http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=622&PN=1

Anyone else noticing lip sync issues on WRGT-DT tonight?

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Anyone else noticing lip sync issues on WRGT-DT tonight?

Yep, me too.

Since ABC has been "traded" to WKEF, can we now only expect 2 channel audio from them, or am I not understanding the logistics? Plus, what will WDTN carry?

WDTN is going to NBC.

I'm not sure if we can expect any 5.1 from WKEF or not. I don't think NBC has ever sent 5.1 so I have no idea if they can.

According to this from an Engineer at WCMH-DT Columbus(NBC O&O), NBC will send DD 5.1 for HD Olympics Coverage, as well as for Prime Time shows this fall :

http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=562&PN=1

Also -- According to this -- NBC is currently offering daily DD 5.1 tests for affiliates that plan to do DD 5.1 for Olympics. Looks like in Columbus they are trying to set it up/schedule the test so they can air it when their viewers can check it out :

http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=619&PN=1

NBC has sent DD 5.1 on a couple of occasions, but not many. One was An episode of American Dreams last season(the season finale I believe) which I think only WNBC may have known about although I believe it was sent out over the net -- Among others, One of the guys who worked on the DD 5.1 audio production for the show posted info in a thread on programming forum at the time, but I can't find it now. They Also sent a DD 5.1 Test of Movie "Traffic" in HD a while back in the afternoon which wasn't supposed to air, but it did air on WKEF-DT(as I assume their autoswitcher got the signal from NBC to switch to the HD feed) -- In DD 2.0 -- More on the latter earlier in this thread as well as here :

http://www.hdcolumbus.org/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=563&PN=1

Not sure, but back during 2002 Olympics -- when HDnet/NBC "partnered" on the production+both aired it -- I think they may have done the production in DD 5.1 -- And *I think* it *may* have been available in DD 5.1 to any NBC affiliate who had DD 5.1 capability(which I don't think WKEF-DT or WLWT-DT Cincinnati has, unless something has changed), but I could be wrong -- a little "hazy" on that from 2.5 years ago ...

Don't recall if anything else has been sent DD 5.1 by NBC so far --- Daytona 500 might have been, but not sure ....

---------------------------------------------------------------

As far as the "logistics" are concerned with the switch -- I'd guess both stations are/will be quite busy with it(so I don't want to pester them too much<g>) -- I'm hoping we'll end up getting HD from both "right off the bat" or soon after August 30th -- But, I wouldn't count on it, and I wouldn't assume ANYTHING ....

Sounds good. I can get WCMH sometimes. I might need to do some antenna tweaking though.

I wouldn't see WDTN having too many problems with NBC HD, aren't they running other NBC affiliates out of Indy already?

Hello. I'm considering making the move to HDTV in the next couple of months, and I'm interested in information from anyone who is familiar with TWC's HDTV service in the Dayton area (specifically, I live in Oakwood). Here's where I'm at: tentatively, I am planning to purchase the new 46" Samsung HLP model. My house is really small, and there's no good place for an antenna or dish, so I've decided to go the TWC route.

Here's my problem: I went to Sears a couple weeks ago to look at the new HLP model, and I was really shocked at the low quality of the video I saw on the set I want to buy. There were a LOT of compression artifacts on the images I saw (the standard Sears video loop of the underwater space station training), especially when the scene changed a great deal. I know this is a product of the lossy compression, but I wasn't expecting it to be that noticeable. My wife even commented on it, which is saying something. After talking it over with a friend, he suggested I go to Circuit City to look at the same set. When I did, I thought the video looked much, much better. Basically, it was what I expected out of HD. So I learned that the quality of the signal (i.e., the amount of compression) is a bigger factor in HD programming than I realized. Can anyone with HDTV from TWC (or anyone who has experience with it) tell me:

(1) How is the picture quality on HD stations? Digital SD stations? Analog SD stations? Are any compression artifacts or other problems noticeable on any of them?
(2) Which local stations, exactly, is TWC carrying in HDTV right now? What stations does the HDTV tier add? Do you need the HD tier in order to get the local HD stations? Incredibly, no TWC rep has been able to answer these questions for me on repeated attempts.

Thanks in advance for your help. I've been lurking here awhile, and the expertise you've provided has already been a big help to me. It's amazing to me that a free forum like this has given me better information than any of the sales or customer service reps that I've dealt with so far.

Phil

I can only answer your question # 2....

I called TW one time inquiring about getting *just* their HD service and initially the girl thought I would have to order at least their lowest digital tier and then add their HD tier to that. I told her I shouldn't have to order a $60 (lowest digital tier) + $10 (HD tier) when I only want the HD.... but wait, this is a cable company we're dealing with... :-) So, she put me on hold and asked. Came back and said I could order their "basic" analog cable, around $9/month + HD Tier, another $10/month + the HD set-top box, $7.95/month. Having to order "basic" might just be a system limitation on their end.

I asked about what channels you get with TW's HD in Dayton and this is the "list" (this person *has* HD service from TW):

707 - WhioTV CHannel 7 HD
716 - ThinkTV 16 HD
722 - WKEF 22 HD
745 - WRGT 45 HD
748 - WCET 48 HD
TNT HD (new this week)
Discovery HD

His message is from 6/4/2004. If you already get HBO or Showtime, they have "HD-HBO" or "HD-Showtime" but they're not "turned on", or accessible, until you have an HD set-top box obviously. He also said this:

"The HDNet/InHD or HBO-Sowtime channels are an extra charge"

I can ask him about the PQ.....

I subscribe to the Digipic 2000 package, which in my opinion is the best deal for HD from TWC. With this you can pick up all the stations if you choose the HD Tier as your "tier of choice" which includes INHD1 INHD2 HDNet and HDNet Movies. You also get two premiums, including the on-demand service for those premiums. So if you choose HBO and SHO you will get their HD channel. You also get all the stations that Hall posted above. I believe the digipic 2000 package is 59.99 and that includes the box. I subscribe to the package, have an additional DVR box to go along with the HD box, and Earthlink highspeed internet. This costs me around 107 a month after taxes etc.

The HD quality is great, i notice very few compression artifacts and when i switch between my OTA set top box and the HD cable box for locals i see no difference in quality. A digital signal is a digital signal.

Originally posted by browerjs ...and when i switch between my OTA set top box and the HD cable box for locals i see no difference in quality. A digital signal is a digital signal. [/B] Yes, a digital signal is a digital signal, but it's not that simple. OTA signals are, as I understand it, uncompressed . Any signals from the cable companies or satellite providers can be, and often are compressed . Is TW here in WOH compressing them ?? I don't know.... Not sure how you'd check it or measure it anyway.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
I wouldn't see WDTN having too many problems with NBC HD, aren't they running other NBC affiliates out of Indy already?

I was thinking that too, but I don't know. I do know WLFI-DT (NBC HD Layfayette, IN) is controlled from LIN/WISH facilities in Indy.

Originally posted by hall
Yes, a digital signal is a digital signal, but it's not that simple.


Actually, there is no such thing as a "digital signal" being sent over the airwaves or a wire. The actual "signal" itself(which we call "RF"(Radio frequency -- for short) is electromagnetic radiation that travels via Radio Waves in a certian portion of the electromagnetic spectrum over the air, or via a wire(i.e. Cable). On a very "Basic" level it is mostly photons/electrons that are involved. Signals are modulated in a certian way(AM/FM/SSB, Trellis coded 8-level Vestigal Sideband(8VSB which is what OTA (H)DTV uses in the U.S.), but only the INFORMATION encoded within the signal is "actually" digital.(or analog in the case of analog NTSC OTA or cable, or AM/FM broadcast radio/etc/etc.(although, there are "digital" radio stations(IBOC) on the air now as well).

Originally posted by hall
OTA signals are, as I understand it, uncompressed. Any signals from the cable companies or satellite providers can be, and often are compressed . Is TW here in WOH compressing them ?? I don't know.... Not sure how you'd check it or measure it anyway.


Nope -- Uncompressed HD video is in the range of 1.5 Gigabits+ per second. The OTA station uses a MPEG2 encoder to compress HD video to "fit" within the amount of data bandwidth available and/or they choose to allocate to their HD service.

Your decoder(cable or OTA, this "somewhat" applies to sat as well, except that Sat doesn't carry HD from Broadcasters at this time) decompresses the MPEG2 video/AC-3 audio data streams sent by the stations. The Max Payload available via a OTA station (6 MHZ RF channel) with ATSC(our (H)DTV standard) is 19.34 Megabits per second, which "generally speaking" is just enough via MPEG2 for High quality 1080i HD during the most bandwidth demanding sections of programming(such as live action sports).

More specifically, At most, about 18mb/s is available for HD Video(or SD video which can involve muliple services(subchannels), as the rest of the available data bandwidth is used by audio stream, PSIP streams and other metadata. Other "ancillary services" can also use portions of the available data bandwidth in a variety of ways -- Subscribtion based Video+data services/etc/etc -- basically anything that can exist as "bits" -- Although MPEG2 is part of the "standard"(and the only thing current receivers work with), other compression schemes can be used as well for those "ancillary services". Also, HD video isn't going to "need" to use the full amount of data bandwidth available to it MOST of the time(but sometimes it does need it all, if not more), and that "extra" bandwidth(the amount available which varies) is what we call "oppurtunistic" data bandwidth.

Beyond the 19.34mb/s available for use for data, Error correction needed for robust over-the-air transmission/reception takes up the rest of the possible data bandwidth within a 6MHZ RF channel - the amount of bandwidth needed for ECC isn't "variable" it is a constant number with our system. The total bandwidth available or used by Data+ that used by Error correction is something like 36~38mb/s per 6MHZ channel if I recall correctly.

Anyhow -- You get the SAME THING "compression wise" via OTA or cable -- The MPEG2 HD(or SD) video Stream from the station is the same, only the mode of transmission is different. 8VSB ATSC is used for OTA transmission/reception, usually QAM via cable, although cable can send 8VSB or 16VSB as well ... Since as much Error correction isn't needed by Cable with QAM/16VSB(I really don't know of any cable system in U.S. that is using 16VSB) roughly Twice as much data can "fit" within a 6MHZ RF channel via 16VSB or QAM than is the case with 8VSB -- meaning they can put Twice as much data - such as 2 HD channels in the same amount of RF bandwidth -- a 6MHZ "channel". By law, Cable is not allowed to "downrez" it or compress it further, it should be exactly the SAME quality as what the station sends OTA.

A cable head end will usually either get the signal from the station via a ASI fiber link(again, Same MPEG2 data stream that OTA viewers get) that comes out of their HD encoder -- but before multiplexing, and before the channel coding/ECC is added at the exciter/transmitter for 8VSB ATSC OTA transmission), OR the cable head end will receive it Over the air at the cable head end just like we OTA people, or via a Microwave link and convert it for use with their system(strip out the 8VSB ECC, and send the MPEG2 video/AC-3 audio/PSIP/etc. streams with QAM).

Anyhow --- You need a transport stream analyzer to "check/measure" it ... This can be done via software with some PC card tuners ...

Now, MOST(but not all) of the time, MPEG2 compressed 1080i HD probably fits quite nicely into 15mb/s or perhaps even a little less .... 720p HD has a bit lower pixel rate and can be done quite satisfactorily via MPEG2 IMO at say, 14-15mb/s MAX or so with 1 SD subchannel present(about 3.5mb/s) as well ...

Many say that improved, more efficent encoders(along with such techniques as Statistical Multiplexing which can "give" HD the priority when it needs more bandwidth than is the case MOST of the time) can result in 1080i HD have as good of quality at 13mb/s "max" via MPEG2 as is the case with current MPEG2 encoders which are in wide use, with the latter using the "max possible" 18mb/s for HD video. --- One of the most "popular"(but not so "efficient" by most reports) MPEG2/ATSC encoders used at HD stations presently is The "Harris Flexicoder." I'm not positive, but I believe WHIO-DT uses one of these ...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for compression artifacts --- It's a very subjective issue. Personally, I'm used to "pristine" OTA analog quality, and I easily notice what I consider to be "intolerable"(or even "somewhat tolerable" compression artifacts) compression artifacts, whenever they show up -- I see them often even on a "small screen" ...

Personally, === In Dayton, I feel WHIO-DT(CBS HD) and WPTD-DT (PBS HD) often suffer from Intolerable compression artifacts with their HD during "bandwidth demanding" portions of programming (Such as HD Football, Basketball, when water rushes down a stream in a PBS Documentary, when The oranges roll off the Conveyor during a HD episode of "tracks ahead"/etc/etc .... WHIO-DT multicasts a SD subchannel(41-2), and WPTD-DT Runs TWO SD services alongside 1080i HD. During these short periods when HD is not getting enough Bandwidth, IMO, the SD analog looks better, which is pretty sad IMO -- since there IS enough bandwidth for High quality HD, I see it all the time from stations which "do it right" ....

In fact, using current MPEG2 encoders that are in use, ATSC (the organization who developed the DTV standard) recommended that stations give "everything" to 1080i HD, and that 720p could exist alongside 1 SD program service ....

On the other hand -- I don't see much of a problem from WKEF-DT, even though they are running 1080i+a SD subchannel, although, I can't say I can't tell a difference between their HD+WLWT-DT(A tad better -- Gives HD "everything" either ... I assume this is because WKEF-DT must be using a more efficent encoder than WHIO-DT, or the SD channel is at a lower bitrate. I think ABC HD at 720p + 1 SD subchannel looks just fine, as I believe will be the case with WRGT-DT as well when they start sending FOX HD at 720p -- The stuff is upconverted to 720p now, and it looks fine IMO.

So, I guess what I"m saying is ... I don't really care HOW many bits are used, or how they do it as long as HD (and/or SD for that matter) ALLWAYS looks as "good" as it CAN if it were given say -- 18mb/s .... And, as long as it is ALLWAYS sent Free-to-air via MPEG2(so it works with current+past receivers ....

I realize there are improvements that have occured with Encoders/etc ... but, I'm skeptical that too much more can be done without changing Codecs(compression technologies which would require us all to get new hardware), the latter which is a BAD Idea IMO for "free-to-air" OTA HD/SD services -- at least for the next 10 years or so ....

Of course -- Also -- Even 1080i HD isn't going to need 18mb/s ALL the time, only during those short, bandwidth demanding portions of programming. 99.5~99.9% of the time, 9-15mb/s or so is plenty, and that which is left over is available for use as Oppurtunistic bandwidth ... However, you can't very well run a program service with oppurtunistic bandwidth(except maybe a weather radar or something) when there are short periods of time when it's bandwidth allocation must drop to Zero in order to preserve High quality HD ...

Now ... MANY factors CAN be involved concering what someone "sees" in the term of compression artifacts(often referred to as "blocking" or "macroblocking) besides the station not allocating enough bandwidth to HD ... Decoding+display related issues, and, with OTA -- If a very "marginal signal" is involved to the extent the decoder is having a rough time of it(but not to the point of complete "dropout), it can increase the apparent compression artifacts ....

Just MY .02 ....

Originally posted by s1059197
Hello. I'm considering making the move to HDTV in the next couple of months, and I'm interested in information from anyone who is familiar with TWC's HDTV service in the Dayton area (specifically, I live in Oakwood). Here's where I'm at: tentatively, I am planning to purchase the new 46" Samsung HLP model. My house is really small, and there's no good place for an antenna or dish, so I've decided to go the TWC route.

Here's my problem: I went to Sears a couple weeks ago to look at the new HLP model, and I was really shocked at the low quality of the video I saw on the set I want to buy. There were a LOT of compression artifacts on the images I saw (the standard Sears video loop of the underwater space station training), especially when the scene changed a great deal. I know this is a product of the lossy compression, but I wasn't expecting it to be that noticeable. My wife even commented on it, which is saying something. After talking it over with a friend, he suggested I go to Circuit City to look at the same set. When I did, I thought the video looked much, much better. Basically, it was what I expected out of HD. So I learned that the quality of the signal (i.e., the amount of compression) is a bigger factor in HD programming than I realized. Can anyone with HDTV from TWC (or anyone who has experience with it) tell me:

(1) How is the picture quality on HD stations? Digital SD stations? Analog SD stations? Are any compression artifacts or other problems noticeable on any of them?
(2) Which local stations, exactly, is TWC carrying in HDTV right now? What stations does the HDTV tier add? Do you need the HD tier in order to get the local HD stations? Incredibly, no TWC rep has been able to answer these questions for me on repeated attempts.

Thanks in advance for your help. I've been lurking here awhile, and the expertise you've provided has already been a big help to me. It's amazing to me that a free forum like this has given me better information than any of the sales or customer service reps that I've dealt with so far.

Phil


HD is great when it is shown. It is hit or miss for things like golf on the weekend, but you do get NASCAR each week, and 3 MLB games in high def. HBO and Showtime each have one station dedicated to HD content. Digital is much better than SD. I can elobarate if you need more. SD is below par... I have a Samsung 61' hln dlp.

The HD 'tier' is inhd, inhd2, hdnet, and hdnetmovies. As part of the hdbox, you get cbshd nbchd tnthd, some pbshd, foxhd. There currently is no abchd, but that may come soon. ESPNHD is also not currently available.

I sent you a pm on how to contact me if you like.

Picture quality for HD off Time Warner looks fine here. I get the locals as clear QAM with a Fusion HD PC card. TWC is only sending 2 HD's per QAM carrier so they are getting decent bandwidth.

Nitewatchman is right, WHIO looks terrible when sports are on though. I watch WBNS (or now WKRC) instead.

A TSreader analysis of WKEF's stream seems to indicate the HD is getting around 15MB/sec.

If everyone's caught their breath after reading Nitewatchman's post :-), I got an answer (another one) in regards to TW's picture quality:

"I've found that the HD picture quality is outstanding, as is the audio, on truely HD channels such as Discovery HD and WPTD-HD. Some of the channels like TNT-HD are obviously just stretching a 4:3 SD picture to fill the frame when they aren't broadcasting something like NASCAR that is truely HD.

As for SD digital and SD analog channels, the SD analog channels generally still stink...particular those on channels 13 and below. I mean, they're not horrible, but there is a bit of snow and ghosting now and then. The digital SD channels are just fine.

I have found, however, that the SD picture quality is a little better on my SD television than on my HD television. This is probably a function of the TV as it seems to be a fairly common observation when reading product reviews....HD TVs have a little trouble with SD signals.

As a PS...I got WDTN and TWC arguing with each other the other day...each of them blaming the other for why Channel 2 is not on the HD channel lineup."

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/remark,10409586~mode=flat#10946639

Originally posted by hall
As for SD digital and SD analog channels, the SD analog channels generally still stink...particular those on channels 13 and below. I mean, they're not horrible, but there is a bit of snow and ghosting now and then. The digital SD channels are just fine.


Getting good analog reception is generally more difficult than getting good digital reception, good analog reception via cable is sometimes alltogether impossible for various reasons. Still, analog can look better IMO WHEN there is too much compression applied in the "digital realm", even with HD .....

"Pristine" analog OTA reception(via a display that natively supports 480i or NTSC scan rates) looks very close to a DVD quality (via composite video) --- NTSC via OTA(or cable) is inherently composite video. Even Digital SD CAN be quite an improvement over analog NTSC, if it is done "right" at the station(enough bandwidth, component video/etc). Also, You'll never see reception related Snow/Ghosts or the various types of interference that often plague analog TV via Digital SD.

Originally posted by hall
I have found, however, that the SD picture quality is a little better on my SD television than on my HD television. This is probably a function of the TV as it seems to be a fairly common observation when reading product reviews....HD TVs have a little trouble with SD signals.


Yes, in some cases part of it might have to do with screen size ("Low rez" SD obviously looks worse the larger it is "blown up") -- But, i think moreso in most cases it likely has more to do with the fact that most HD displays do NOT support 480i scan rate(or NTSC -525 Horizontal lines total), as well as scalers and the like ... Calibration/etc. does/can help a lot, but It's still probably not going to look as good as it would on a $5000-10000+ +professional quality studio monitor ....

Originally posted by hall
"I've found that the HD picture quality is outstanding, as is the audio, on truely HD channels such as Discovery HD and WPTD-HD.


Too bad that fellow never saw PBS HD during the short period of time(Dec 2002-Jan 03) WCET-DT Cincinnati was giving it all the bandwidth "possible" and that it actually requires IMHO :)

As a PS...I got WDTN and TWC arguing with each other the other day...each of them blaming the other for why Channel 2 is not on the HD channel lineup."

I think I may have gotten TWC "busted" because I posted that I was getting WDTN on QAM channel 91 when I first installed my Fusion card. It's gone now.

Thanks a lot for the info, everyone. That really clears up a lot on the TWC packages... it's actually a better deal than I expected. And BTW, I did get a rep to confirm that a HD DVR is arriving in the next few weeks.

I'm concerned about the fact that several of you noticed blocking on fast-motion scenes, since one of my primary motives for going to HD is sports programming--specifically football on WHIO, which Nitewatchman said was one of the worst offenders.

Is anyone that receives OTA having any problems with WXIX-DT or WKRC-DT? It almost appears reminiscent of several months ago when WRGT-DT was out-of-channel and destroying reception of adjacent channels. I haven't been able to get a lock on either of them for several weeks. All other Cincy stations seem fine, with the exception of WPTO-DT, which I never did receive all that well.

The HDDVR was supposed to be deployed to customers last week, but according to my TWC engineering contact there was a software bug and they were waiting on an upgrade.

On another note, is everyone still having audio-sync issues with WRGT-DT. It was off during Casino last night

Originally posted by s1059197
I'm concerned about the fact that several of you noticed blocking on fast-motion scenes, since one of my primary motives for going to HD is sports programming--specifically football on WHIO, which Nitewatchman said was one of the worst offenders. 1080i really needs the full 19Mb/s ATSC channel capacity to render an artifact-free HD image. WHIO, like the others, carries a subchannel that restricts HD to just 15Mb/s. Ordinarily, that's fine. But live, fast-motion programming needs more than that. In all of the cases I'm familiar with, the cable headend is fed from the same encoders that run the transmitter, so the cable and the OTA will be running the same throughput.

Unfortunately, your only options to get around that are the two you can't employ: An antenna (to pick up either Columbus or Cincinnati CBS affiliates, which are both full-bandwidth HD stations) or a DirecTV multisatellite dish (with a subscription to NFL Sunday Ticket). Last season's CBS HD broadcasts on DirecTV were superior to WHIO's and nearly as good as Columbus.' (WKRC-DT was running an internet service at the time and the blocking was considerable. They've since discontinuted that).

Doc

Originally posted by Paul210
Is anyone that receives OTA having any problems with WXIX-DT or WKRC-DT?

No problems here --- I'm not seeing what I was when WRGT-DT was going a little "wider" than it should(Which involved MUCH lower signal quality readings from WRGT-DT, and I still can get WKRC-DT with antenna aimed 150 degrees off target towards Dayton -- although I had to catch WRGT-DT off air before I could tell for sure what was going on back then ....) .... I think that happened in Spring 2003, BTW ;)... They had said they had to "fix" the computer which sends the adaptive precorrections(a way to stay in channel with DTV) to the exciter.

Given your location+proximity to Dayton towers --- I suppose that if WRGT-DT were to increase power however(even with the most perfect "channel mask") --- With a "strong enough" signal on 30, it might be difficult for your receiver to be selective enough to get the weaker, more distant signals on the 1st adjacent channels.

I haven't seen any NBC HD on WKEF for a day or two. Anyone else caught this? WLWT comes in fine here so I've been switching to them.

Apparently 2 still remembers how to hit the HD switch though. Hooray for HD football back on my screen! :D

My couch is open, bring beer. :p

Yes -- My TV time has been very limited as of late, didn't get in tonight until 4 minutes left in 3rd Quarter ...

WKEF-DT does have Leno in HD tonight, as well as last time I checked it which was one night last week (Thur or fri I think) ...

any ideas why TWC doesn't have ABC HD. I recently moved to Union and am having trouble with my silver sensor picking up OTA signals in my basecment. Damn TWC damn them.

They will soon, when ABC moves to WKEF.

I'm not sure why they don't have WDTN on there. Probably WDTN is demanding too much $$$.

When watching the MNF in HD I would get a some jitter every once in a while.

Anyone else have this problem?

Yes, I've noticed some vertical jitter on WDTN as long as I've had HD gear.

Does anyone know if WKEF is broadcasting the olympics in HD? TitanTV does not shows not, but we know how accurate they can be. WKEF did HD last olympics, so I can't imagine that they wouldn't do it this time around. In fact, that was the first time that I witnessed HD in person - at Morris's on 741.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Yes, I've noticed some vertical jitter on WDTN as long as I've had HD gear.

I've never noticed jitter on WDTN-DT on either of two receivers. The one that drives me crazy is WXIX-DT. There is always visible jitter and it's there on both receivers.

Interesting. I haven't noticed any jitter on WDTN-DT either.

I only see the WXIX jitter on one receiver (HDV420 not DTC-100). I also get dropped frames from WRGT-DT 30-1, on HDV420 but ONLY during certian syndicated programming(such as ST:Voyager some movies on weekends) ... I've seen the same thing(dropped frames) on occasion from WSYX-DT 13 Columbus, but ONLY during ABC HD+ONLY on Zenith HDV420, Not DTC-100 .. Doesn't matter if the display supports 3:2 pulldown or not, I thought that might be an issue involved until I "swapped things around" and checked it ...

Buckeye,

I can't say for sure, but I'd think WKEF-DT would do HD Olympics, like in 2002 (Which was excellent BTW) -- I guess we'll find out tomorrow night -- It has been confirmed that Both WCMH-DT Columbus and WLWT-DT Cincy will have the HD Olympics coverage, pretty much around the clock I believe.

Found this interesting

High-Def Olympics Underwhelming (http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,64552,00.html?tw=rss.CUL)


And if you like Football

CBS to Air Three NFL Games in HD Each Sunday (http://www.mediaweek.com/mediaweek/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000604114)


Or Golf

CBS Sports to show the 86th PGA Championship in HDTV for first time (http://www.pga.com/news/pganews/pgamedianewsletter/hdtv081004.cfm)


Mad

anyone else getting reruns of the 2002 olympics on 51-1?

Yep it's on a 1-hour delay....just started now. I'm watching on WCMH Columbus since they are passing 5.1.

I noticed that also. The PQ is really good from dayton, I havent noticed any compression artifacts during demanding sequences. It was a real treat to watch the standard definition feed with my family and then have the Hi Def feed to compare with. Quite possibly some of the best HD images I've seen on my set!

What's up with WKEF HD replaying the opening ceremony over and over and over again. That's all I've seen whenever I have flipped to the HD broadcast. :(

Vader,

That's all NBC is sending anyone HD wise at this point. It'll change tomorrow(at 4am) with HD coverage scheduled of Gymnastics, Swimming+Diving. There will be 8 hours of HD coverage of the events every day(after today) repeated 3 times. Also -- Keep in mind that the HD coverage(besides the opening ceremonies last night) is on a 24 hour delay -- remember, H(DTV) viewers are not yet counted in the ratings, and as you can tell, there is only one sponsor of the HD coverage(Sony), although local stations could have sold some spots as well .....

More info+the full HD schedule is available here :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=432732

Personally, I think it's excellent WKEF/WLWT/WCMH is giving us HD 24/7 for the Olympics - They pretty much did the same thing for SLC in 2002, except HDnet/NBC partnered on the coverage. Beats SD anyday, but yeah, I'm looking foward to seeing the HD event coverage begin.

Apparently WKEF has obtained some means of putting a local bug up on the HD feed. Hmmm, guess I'll go watch WCMH or WLWT instead to avoid the screen clutter. :)

I noticed their analog channel and 51-2 seemed to be covering up NBC network promos with ABC promos with a caption at the bottom for "your new home for ABC".

The Bengals game looked decent on WRGT-DT in spite of being an upconvert to 720p. Decent in PQ that is, not in the quality of the football. The color of the day was mainly yellow penalty flags....

Jeff,

Have you spoken with either of the engineers from WDTN or WKEF to see if when they switch ABC->NBC (and vice versa) that the HD transition will be seamless as well?

Just curious to see what any of you think about the Olympics in HD on NBC (I know JBH613 already weighed in on this topic). I've been watching it on WLWT-DT since they're only running one channel. Overall, it looks pretty fantastic. But I still notice compression artifacts during the most demanding scenes, such as the swimming that's been on the past couple days. The rippling water is what seems to do it. Is this the best that 8VSB and 19.39 Mbps can do? Maybe I just have a case of "is that all there is". :rolleyes:

Salt Lake City was cleaner. Zero artifacts on WLWT-DT. I'm wondering if the shared gear or the half-globe haul has something to do with it.

Originally posted by browerjs
Jeff,

Have you spoken with either of the engineers from WDTN or WKEF to see if when they switch ABC->NBC (and vice versa) that the HD transition will be seamless as well?

Not yet ..... Thought I'd see how it goes, as I'm sure they are quite busy presently, as I have been lately ...

---------------------------------------

Agree with Doc Concerning the Olympics(2002+2004) PQ .. Even during Athens opening ceremonies some slight(very slight) compression artifacts were visable even on WLWT-DT, of course they were a bit worse(but still not too bad, most people probably wouldn't even have noticed) on WKEF-DT. Personally I'm thinking that perhaps some of the compression artifacts we are seeing this time may be coming on the production side of things for some reason(multiple de-coding/encoding steps or specific equipment they are using/etc), perhaps even before NBC gets it from the "Host broadcaster"(AOB - Athens Olympic Broadcasting), which is providing the HD feeds to NBC (at 1080i 50HZ, which of course among other things must be converted to 1080i @ 60hz(59.94fps). I would like to see it at 18mb/s+ from WKEF-DT's encoder though ....

Here is one informative post from someone on the production crew in Athens, near the end of the post he talks a little about the pixelization issue - This fellow has some other informative posts on Olympics if you do a search by user name of "HislonV" in the programming area you can find them :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4205727#post4205727

I don't think the PQ of the Olympics on WKEF 51.1 is anything breathtaking, but I find it reasonably acceptable. I don't have another HD Olympic source to compare it with (can't get D* 84 and I can't turn my attic antenna around to get Cincy). But it's an order of magnitude better than 22 analog, at least on a 65" RPTV. (The 24 delayed issue is another matter, discussed elswhere on this board).

Buckeye.

Come on over <G>. I can get all three and WKEF-DT is definitely lower quality than the other two. Ch 84 and KEF were tied in the beginning, but D* did something and now 84's on a par with WLWT-DT. Not as breathtaking as SLC, but the underwater shots leave you going "woah."

Don - how many times did you have to call to get Ch84, or did it show up by itself? I called 3 times and got the same answer all 3 times, so I gave up. Does NBC own WLWT? Maybe I should call them again and see. Any tips on how to get them to turn it on?

Buck..

WLWT is owned by Hearst-Argyle. For DirecTV to turn on 84 for you, your cable system has to be carrying WKEF-DT or the NBC-HD Olympics feed. It showed up by itself. Insight cable carries WLWT-DT. And made a pretty big deal about having the Olympics in HD. But I woudln't bother. While WKEF is the lower quality of the three, it ain't THAT much lower.

Don - thanks.

So can any TW Cable folks out there tell me if TW carries either WKEF-DT or the NBC-HD Olympics feed? I think the answer is no, but I'd like to hear it from someone who can confirm it.

Originally posted by buckeye1010

So can any TW Cable folks out there tell me if TW carries either WKEF-DT or the NBC-HD Olympics feed? [/B]

TWC in Sidney has the Olympics in HD on WKEF-DT ch.722.

I've sampled all the available options to me: WCMH, WLWT, and WKEF. WLWT and WCMH are about equal and take the edge over WKEF. Overall the PQ is a bit soft, and I have seen more pixelation than usual for stations that give the full bandwidth to HD. I figured it had something to do with the source.

Originally posted by buckeye1010
So can any TW Cable folks out there tell me if TW carries either WKEF-DT or the NBC-HD Olympics feed? I think the answer is no, but I'd like to hear it from someone who can confirm it. Not sure if this link will work or not:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/CLU/TWCCLUs.ashx?ChannelFilter=HDTV&Zip=&CLUID=119

If not, these are the channels they list for "City of Dayton" when you filter by their "HDTV" tier:

711 14DT
712 14Learn
716 ThinkTV
717 Think16
718 16Kids
719 16Again
720 Think14
722 WKEF NBC 22 Dayton
745 WRGT FOX 45 Dayton
755 Discovery HD Theater
756 TNT HD

WHIO-DT should be on the TWC HD listing - ch. 707

I also get WCET HD plus subchannels via Time Warner on QAM channel 109. (I have a Fusion card in my PC).

WHIO forgot to put the HD feed up for the game tonight but I think they finally got it up. It looks pretty bad compared to WKRC's now that KRC dropped that datacast service and is giving full bandwidth to a single HD channel.

I've been out of town the past few days on business and haven't had a chance to respond to my earlier post regarding PQ issues on WKEF. I believe there were two factors in my "glowing" review of the images I saw.

1: I first was forced to watch the SD version of the opening ceremony and then switched to the HD feed when it came on. I was so taken back by how much better it looked than the SD version, that I wasn't completely subjective to how it compared to other HD broadcasts.

and

2:I only get WKEF and have no other HD Olympic channel to compare it to.

As a side note I too noticed some compression artifacts during the swimming scenes, but nothing to the extent of say a PBS HD show.
I still say that in my very limited HD watching days, the HD feed from WKEF on the Olympics was one of the best I've seen.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So to clear up some confusion I'm still having regarding the whole ABC NBC switch, which station can we expect to see 5.1 from, if not both? I'm still a little confused, maybe its all those acronyms?

Anyone who's getting HD through TWC:

Are you seeing pixelation and a general crappy signal coming in mainly from 745, 755, 756, 760, 761, 762, 763? 722 WKEF seems fine, but the other channels pixelate heavily.

Just wondering if it's me or everyone.

I haven't noticed this, but somehow TWC has changed something with how WRGT-DT/WKEF-DT are set up on QAM carrier 93 which is causing my Fusion 3 card to crash when tuning that channel.
I also noticed some weird behavior from WPTO-DT but I have it back now. As for heavy pixelation on PBS, they don't give their HD feeds enough bandwidth here so it looks pretty bad.

My card doesn't get the "mapping" that TWC does with their HD box, so the actual channels that I get activity on are
91.1 WHIO-DT
93.1 WRGT-DT
93.2 WKEF-DT
108.1-10 WPTD-DT, WPTO-DT
109.1-5 WCET-DT

Something's up with 2-1, probably involving the network change-over. I was getting black screens during the time that local spots were on the analog and 2-2 during MNF. Looks like only network is getting through on 2-1.

The problems I was seeing were happening on Sunday. Last night I spot checked the channels for a few minutes and didn't notice the problem. Hopefully whatever it was it's fixed.

This is my first post to the forum, I was disappointed to learn that WDTN doesn’t have an HD channel agreement with TWC, so the closing ceremonies of the Olympics on Monday will be an over the air broadcast only. WKEF says the switch to ABC is at 3am and WDTN will turn on NBC at 5am. Officials at WDTN have no knowledge of where the contract stands, but it’s 4 sure if you receive NBC HD only via TWC your viewing is about to end. WDTN will broadcast NBC HD in 1080i as of Monday.

Yeah, it will suck to not have NBC HD, but if we start getting ABC HD Monday (Monday Night Football!!), I'll be happy.

WKEF will use a new receiver to carry ABC HD 720p this may clear up the data rate problem others have commented on. WDTN's up-converter is down, so local SD programing will suffer for another week or so. FYI both stations receive HD from satellite feeds.

If WDTN will be 1080i, we can only hope they drop the sub channel.

1st off -- Dotcrawl, Welcome to AVS, and thanks for the info ... WDTN-DT has had upconverted local/syndicated programming back on their HD service(2-1 PSIP remap OTA) when I've checked it today, so perhaps they got to it a little earlier than they expected ...

8/30 should be a big TV AND HD Day in Dayton ...

Looks like Fox is bringing HD (including the Nat'l distribution system+ the splicers at the affiliates) on line a little early --- Instead of 9/12, Fox HD begins 8/30 (hopefully from WRGT-DT as well, although I know those guys must be very busy with the affiliate switch for WKEF) ....

See here for more info on 8/30 Fox HD :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=439520&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Originally posted by Dotcrawl
WKEF says the switch to ABC is at 3am and WDTN will turn on NBC at 5am.

I just realized ... If WDTN-DT has HD right off the bat, If I can work it in the schedule it will be interesting here to compare HD PQ for the Closing Ceremonies between WLWT-DT/WDTN-DT on Monday Morning ... I think NBC is going to keep the HD Olympics coverage on the HD feed until 12 Noon Monday, hope the "hoosiers" at LIN/WISH in Indy are awake ;)

Jeff,

Do you know if WKEF ABC will have HD right off the bat?

Vader,

Don't know ...

If you like, You can try contacting them here (You'll probably want to use the technical/engineering selection from the drop down box) : http://www.wkef22.com/dayton_oh/station/contact_departments.shtml

Or here:

STATION ADDRESS:
NBC22/FOX45
45 Broadcast Plaza
Dayton, Ohio 45408
Phone: 937.263.4500
Fax: 937.268.5265

----------------------------

I just sent them an email. If I get a reply, I'll post it.

Olympics closing ceremony is up in HD AND DD 5.1 on WDTN-DT this morning ...

Quickly comparing PQ with WLWT-DT(which is a bit difficult given what even WLWT-DT looks like during HD Olympics this time around), and IMO -- it looks like WDTN-DT is probably going to need to drop the SD subchannel(at least during "bandwidth demanding" programming) .. I think there is even a tad more pixelization on WDTN-DT than was the case with WKEF-DT ... Hard to say at this point, but I don't think it is going to be as bad as what we get from WHIO-DT during NFL football/etc, though ..

---------------------------------

Maybe we should contact our buddy, Jim Atkinson. I'm sure he's not doing much right now anyway. :D

As usual, Sinclair disappoints. Monday Night Football is not in HD on the new ABC 22. It is interesting that WDTN is already broadcasting in 1080i and seems to be ready to go for HD. WKEF on the other than hand, is still broadcasting in 1080i even though ABC broadcasts in 720p exclusively. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. I certainly hope WKEF gets their act together on the HD before the regular season begins.

Scott

I noticed that too *grumble*. I can't get any other ABC stations either.

Hey everyone. I just picked up an ATI HDTV Wonder and am trying to tune in the Gem City's finest TV stations.

Am I on the same page?

CBS:
Is CBS messed up tonight? I get 41-1 in fine with the card, but im only getting 480i for CSI miami right now.

FOX:
I can't tune in Fox at all but I have good signal. Are they upgrading?

ABC:
I know the big switch happened today. I see they didn't get HD on in time for MNF.

NBC:
Looks ok. Ill try Leno tonight.

PBS: Great signal, but man is that an overly compressed signal. Icky.

WB : Haven't messed with it yet.

briantrt,

You need to read back through this thread but I will help you out as much as possible.

CBS: Just fine over the air here...clearly 1080i on 41-1. 41-2 is 480i

Fox: Had their splicer installed some time ago and broadcast 720p all the time. Fox supposedly officially went full HD today although there aren't really any programs scheduled in full HD until 9/12.

ABC: Yes, clearly WKEF is not yet ready to broadcast ABC in 720p

NBC: WDTN is broadcasting in 1080i. From earlier in this thread it appears they were broadcasting the closing ceremonies in HD this morning, so it appears Leno should be ok. Should now in about 1/2 hour.

PBS: Yes, too compressed, but his has been discussed many times. It is due to the load of subchannels they run.

WB: The digital feed works just fine but I don't know that they broadcast anything in HD around here.

Scott

WB is a single 480i SD channel here. Unfortunately, WBDT doesn't pass any HD at all. If you've got a decent size rooftop antenna you might be able to get WB HD from WWHO-DT 46 by pointing your antenna toward Williamsport, Ohio (SSW of Columbus). They carry WB on a delayed basis with UPN as their primary network.

I sorry if I am rehashing stuff or it looks like im rehashing stuff. The ATI card has several issues (basically a public beta, but you pay $200 to be on the team) Im just trying to see if what I get is what everyone else is getting.

CBS : Like last night I wasn't getting CBS in HD just 480i. The ATI tuner only shows one channel for CBS not two. Looks like it might be a ATI issue.

ABC : Problems on WKEFs side. Can't tell if there are going to be problems.

NBC : I didn't get Leno last night. Was there something messed up with the feed? I got fear factor instead. Or is the ATI time shift all messed up.

FOX : Got a strong signal, but couldn't tune, looks like an ATI problem.

PBS: No problems.

I get NBC & PBS as the only stations with subchannels. I don't think that is correct.

hey guys..looks like i'll be moving to dayton in a few weeks

been readin through this thread and am not looking forward to multicasting heaven and sinclair :(

but are there any plans for WB to broadcast HD in the area? looks like a digital signal is available but it's only 480i..wtf?

edit...emailed wb64 out in cincinnati since most of you guys are able to pick up their stations

here's their response to "Do you plan on offering the WB in HDTV?"

Yes, we are currently purchasing equipment to do this. We hope to be on
in HDTV
soon. 1 or 2 months if possible.

certainly good news...

Watching WHIO's noon news show, the anchor mentioned the Republican Convention being broadcast in high-definition on "WHIO's high-definition channel 41-1". He's slightly incorrect, isn't he ?? :) Not to nit-pick, but it's just a *digital* channel that sometimes broadcasts in HD format, yes ??

I don't know why WKEF 22 even has Contact Info on it's website. I've sent 3 emails regarding ABC HD and haven't gotten any response. :rolleyes:

EDIT: A couple more emails tonight and they switch to HD on ABC in the middle of 'According to Jim'. YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

hey guys..there is about 70 pages worth of material in this thread..i have gone through about 20

but i'm hoping someone could provide an answer for me

is there a way to receive columbus stations(these are the only ones that don't appear to be multicasting) in dayton? i believe it's around 70 miles away

i hope to pick up all the major networks in the area but i would like to avoid multicasting

Rakesh.S,

Depends on where you are in Dayton and if you're willing to get a really good antenna up nice and high. I can pick up one Columbus channel, but it's VHF. Nothing else comes in consistently. Do you know where you'll be living yet?

70 pages....hmmm....might be time for a new thread!?

Paul

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
edit...emailed wb64 out in cincinnati since most of you guys are able to pick up their stations

here's their response to "Do you plan on offering the WB in HDTV?"

Yes, we are currently purchasing equipment to do this. We hope to be on
in HDTV
soon. 1 or 2 months if possible.

certainly good news...

Wow ... that is good news (They are Sinclair O&O BTW) ...

As for WB Dayton(ACME owned) ... They DID tell me in Fall 2003 that at some point they would do HD(Which is better than what they said about a year earlier), but they couldn't tell me when, only that at that time they were looking at equipment for HD passthrough ....

Columbus is about 55-65 Miles from most of Dayton area(Paul+I are NW+SW of Dayton, respectively+a little farther from Columbus than most of Dayton area), Cincinnati is about 45~55 Miles from Dayton ... ALL of Dayton area is within the coverage area of most Cincinnati Stations and vice versa ... We do have some hills in portions of our area though, which can be a big problem if they are in the wrong place ...

Oh ... WLWT-DT NBC HD Cincinnati, WKRC-DT CBS HD Cincinnati and WXIX-DT Fox Cincinnati Currently DO not multicast(or datacast) Everything goes to their "HD" service(or Fox WS upconverted to 1080i for WXIX), I'm not sure what Fox Cincy is going to do when they start doing Fox HD, though ... NFL HD football looks fantastic on WKRC-DT so far this year, it's like night and day compared to WHIO-DT CBS Dayton which IMO suffers from intolerable compression artifacts during bandwidth demanding programming -- It's pretty much as bad from WHIO-DT IMO as what we get from PBS HD from the FOUR (yes four) PBS HD affiliates in the Cincinnati/Dayton area(all of which run 2 SD+1 HD, the one in Northern KY does 720p instead of 1080i) .... Columbus PBS HD is not any better, they run 3 SD services during HD. Anyhow ..... Up until earlier this summer, WKRC-DT was allocating 4mb/s+to a "webhopper" datacasting service, but thankfully, they got rid of it, hoping it stays that way!

Originally posted by hall
Watching WHIO's noon news show, the anchor mentioned the Republican Convention being broadcast in high-definition on "WHIO's high-definition channel 41-1". He's slightly incorrect, isn't he ?? :) Not to nit-pick, but it's just a *digital* channel that sometimes broadcasts in HD format, yes ??

On the one hand ... Any promotion of DTV is good I suppose ... But on the other hand .... of course, it's not even on 41-1, its on 41-2, the SD subchannel(Which just went to color bars for RNC pool feed at 11:21pm ...)

Originally posted by brianrt
The ATI card has several issues

CBS : Like last night I wasn't getting CBS in HD just 480i. The ATI tuner only shows one channel for CBS not two. Looks like it might be a ATI issue.

ABC : Problems on WKEFs side. Can't tell if there are going to be problems.

NBC : I didn't get Leno last night. Was there something messed up with the feed? I got fear factor instead. Or is the ATI time shift all messed up.

FOX : Got a strong signal, but couldn't tune, looks like an ATI problem.

PBS: No problems.

I get NBC & PBS as the only stations with subchannels. I don't think that is correct.

First off, except for WB Dayton, ALL the rest of the Dayton stations currently run a HD AND a SD service(2 "subchannels" x-1=HD, +x-2=SD,) or more in case of PBS (16.2~16.6).

I wonder if PSIP implementation(or lack thereof from some of our local stations), by the Stations (or ATI) may have something to do with at least some of the issues you are seeing .... It is generally uncommon in most areas for stations NOT to send channel remapping info via PSIP, however, a bit "uncommonly" we have 3 stations in Dayton that don't ....

If this helps ...

WBDT-DT 18 (remaps to 26-1) - WB Dayton - Single channel 480i 4x3 SD only so far(first came on air in March 2003).

FOX - WRGT-DT 30 - 30-1 is 720p (currently Fox WS (480i "anamorphic" 16x9 source -- or in other words, 16x9 NTSC video is upconverted to 720p) - All fox programming currently in proper Aspect ratio, Local Syndicated 4x3 programming is therefore sent within the 16x9 ATSC format as "stretched" to 16x9. 30-2 is 480i 4x3, simulcast of analog WRGT 45. It's fine today, but I did notice Sunday that 30-2 was "blank" on both my receivers here ... Note that WRGT-DT does NOT send channel remapping info via PSIP, thus we see it(except for a few models of receivers which rely solely on D*/E* EPG for channel tuning) on its "actual" RF channel (30) rather than remapped to appear to be "next" to analog 45.

CBS WHIO-DT 41 : I haven't noticed any problems(besides the compression artifacts) with CBS HD Dayton lately, but then again I haven't had much time to watch lately ... Pats/Panthers was HD sat night ... Sounds like you must be getting just their SD subchannel, as their HD service is 1080i 24/7 (non-HD stuff is upconverted to 1080i at the station). Note that WHIO-DT also does NOT send channel remapping info via PSIP (we see it as 41-1 HD, 41-2 SD, instead of 7-x ) .. They are airing a feed from RNC on 41-2 at times presently ... Maybe you're just getting 41-2 ?

NBC WDTN-DT 50 (PSIP remaps to 2-1 (HD) and 2-2 (SD) - Leno is fine in HD tonight from them, I didn't read through the whole thread, but there is a Nat'l thread about missing HD last night from NBC during Leno in programming area. Keep in mind, Besides the 24/7 HD olympics coverage from Athens, last night's leno was the first "regular" NBC HD in 3 weeks ....

ABC WKEF-DT 51 -- ABC HD (or upconverted programming) on 51-1, 480i 4x3 SD simulcast of analog on 51-2 ... Note that WKEF ALSO does not send channel remapping info via PSIP ...

PBS WPTD-DT 58 PBS/Think TV (remaps via PSIP to 16-x) :

16.2 - Think16 - simulcast of analog (480i SD) - Up 24/7
16.3 - Repeat Scehedule of think16 (480i SD) - Up 24/7 (for some reason no programming at 11:45pm tonight though)
16.4 - PBS Kids (480i SD) Blank during HD
16.5 - Ohio Channel (480i SD) - Blank During HD
16.6 - PBS HD Channel - 6pm~6am nightly

Originally posted by Paul210
Rakesh.S,

Depends on where you are in Dayton and if you're willing to get a really good antenna up nice and high. I can pick up one Columbus channel, but it's VHF. Nothing else comes in consistently. Do you know where you'll be living yet?

70 pages....hmmm....might be time for a new thread!?

Paul

nope haven't decided on where exactly i'll be living but it'll be within a few miles radius of wright state university and the air force base for sure

other thing is it's probably going to be an apartment so unless an indoor antenna can pick up the cincinnati/columbus stations, i am pretty much screwed

what areas are recommended for good reception?

also which stations have the ability to do 5.1 sound?

i think i have been too spoiled and my expectations are just too high coming from a dallas market where everything is O&O and they don't miss a beat

Does anyone know if TWC plans on picking up Starz HD or Cinemax HD? Starz HD is going to have Return of the King this winter and since I can't watch college football on ESPN HD it would atleast be nice to watch ROTK. TWC sucks more and more each day.

GO BUCKEYES

Still no ABC HD from WKEF. I did check with my Fusion PC card yesterday and they have switched to 720P however.

Edit: never mind that, I see someone above has said they finally got it working (apparently after I gave up and turned it off). I did notice black screen and no sound several times, like they were trying to switch over and it wasn't working.

WDTN seems to be setting the 5.1 flag anytime NBC HD comes through. I noticed WCMH Columbus (which also has 5.1 capability) was in 2.0 mode. I think NBC is just starting to use 5.1 on a few shows or live events, whereas almost all ABC HD was in 5.1.

Originally posted by Rakesh.S nope haven't decided on where exactly i'll be living but it'll be within a few miles radius of wright state university and the air force base for sure Well, at least you'll be on the correct side of town to better your odds of picking up Columbus stations. :)

WBNS-DT 21 (10-1) and WCMH-DT 14 (4-1) come in most days at my place.

Rat Shack Yagi + CM7777 preamp in the attic of my townhouse.

Rakesh.S,

I'm not sure how the elevation is around Fairborn (WSU/WPAFB area). Nitewatchman may have the abililty to help on that one. Without an outside antenna, I doubt you'll pick up anything other than Dayton. But as hall points out, Fairborn is on the east side of Dayton, so at least you're a little closer to Columbus.

Paul

My location is on the map in the attached image.
I get two Columbus signals (WBNS/WCMH, see above) about 75% of the time with an antenna in my attic. I would imagine I would have more reliable reception with it outdoors but that is not currently an option.

FYI for the TWC subscribers, the HD-DVR boxes are now available from Time Warner Cable. I picked mine up today and it works great.

Anyone have any word on what's going on with WKEF-ABC HD?

TWC has a very limited number of HD/DVR boxes from what I understand (around 70 for the whole Dayton division right now!), so you may want to call and make sure they have one available for you currently.

Supposedly they have a list of people it is available to, and if you aren't on the list you aren't getting it. As a matter of fact, while picking mine up today, they asked if a CSR had contacted me personally. Although I had called and gotten myself placed on the list, I said "yes" to make sure I got mine :).

Good luck to anybody who wants it before their next shipment of hardware.

BIG congrats to WDTN/WKEF (and LIN/Sinclair) for getting things in order so quickly for the affiliate switch. Many here may not know just how complex an endeavor that likely was for them - and keep in mind -- The "ink" is barely dry where the WKEF/ABC affiliation is concerned.

At least that's the way it seemed tonight at 9:45~10pm ... Only 2 DAYS after the switch. To be honest, I did not really expect HD from either station for quite some time after the switch .... Anyhow, I thought Drew Carey In HD looked a tad better tonight (at least with my equipment) on WKEF-DT than was the case on WCPO-DT .. A tad Sharper, or a bit more contrast perhaps, but granted, its not the best thing to look at to evaluate HD PQ ... HD MNF should make for a better "test" ...

WHIO-DT on the other hand ... No audio presently on 41-2 for the RNC feed ... Wonder how long it will be missing this time ... Don't guess they are getting many calls .... I wonder how many people have tried to contact them about 41-2, as compared to how many of US have contacted them(or tried) about HD on 41-1 ....

The RNC didn't come in HD for me last night. I got the 1080i signal, but it was not a HD picture. Did WHIO mess up last night or was the ATI screwwed up again?

brianrt,

If you're talking about the CBS coverage of RNC (10pm), I don't think it is being sent by CBS in HD, it should be 4x3 SD upconverted to 1080i on 41-1.

Yeah, according to CBS' own schedule, http://www.cbs.com/info/hdtv/index.php, they are NOT broadcasting it, or simulcasting it, in HD format.

Oh, I guess I was confused because hall mentioned earlier that WHIO News bragged that they were going to have it on HD.

"Watching WHIO's noon news show, the anchor mentioned the Republican Convention being broadcast in high-definition on "WHIO's high-definition channel 41-1". He's slightly incorrect, isn't he ?? Not to nit-pick, but it's just a *digital* channel that sometimes broadcasts in HD format, yes ??"

Im just trying to make sure this ATI card isn't screwwed up more than it already is.

I didn't memorize his words exactly, but I'll confidently say he said to watch the RNC "in high-definition" on their (WHIO's) "high-definition channel 41-1".

All this talk about the RNC in HD, makes me wonder. Why would anyone want to see a bunch of politicians, especially Republicans, any clearer than 480i? Just boggles the mind.

The RNC has been in HD on HDNet (and PBS I think).

After calling Time-Warner 3 times, I was told three different things. Apparently, the boxes were not supposed to be released yet, so now they are not available but you can be placed on a waiting list.

If anyone was able to pick up a box today or Saturday, where you already on a list?

Originally posted by jbh613
Why would anyone want to see a bunch of politicians, especially Republicans, any clearer than 480i? Two words: Bush Twins. Specifically, Barbara.

Yeah, who would have ever thought they'd utter the words "Barbara Bush is hot"?

Yeah, thats a good point I guess. The funny thing is, my father-in-law is a very prestigious business man, and also friends with the Bush family. My wife always tells me stories of how when she was a child the would stay at the Bush's home and she would wake up every morning to cook breakfast with Barbara(the original that is). Thats obviously been a few years back, but my wife's family still maintains a relationship with the Bush's. I usually try not to tell people that story. I guess thats enough off topic banter from me.

BTW, I'm thinking about setting up a get together for the local HT enthusiasts, I was wondering if anyone is interested?

Well, WKEF missed HD for "Dinosaur" tonight, (ABC HD is fine from WCPO-DT at 9:45) BUT ... Noticed at 9:45pm Tonight that the Fox splicer is on line currently on WRGT-DT, with the splicer inserted local bug present (part of it runs just slightly outside of 4x3 area) ... Where the switching is concerned, just caught a local ad break and everything looks to be going very smoothly ... I do hope they can start sending local/syndicated stuff in proper AR(i.e. 4x3 instead of stretched) soon on 30-1 though, if they no longer need the Fox WS feed for anything ...

Oh ... Also notice 30-2 is GONE, it's just 30-1 presently ...

Screenshot of WRGT-DT tonight with Splicer on line Follows -- Sorry about the quality - took it real quick with a digital camera -- (The upconvert from Fox does look quite good as upconverts go, BTW) :

Originally posted by jbh613


BTW, I'm thinking about setting up a get together for the local HT enthusiasts, I was wondering if anyone is interested? [/B]

I'm up for it.

Originally posted by logic8482
After calling Time-Warner 3 times, I was told three different things. Apparently, the boxes were not supposed to be released yet, so now they are not available but you can be placed on a waiting list.

If anyone was able to pick up a box today or Saturday, where you already on a list?

Logic,
I have been calling TWC for 4 months asking if the boxes were out yet. Not once was I ever asked to put on a waiting list. Now I read here on the forum and see the HD-DVR is out and I call and of course I'm just now put on the list. I personally don't know why I'm still even using TWC. No ESPN HD, No Starz HD (LOTR soon), No Cinemax HD, and the list goes on.

I've been in contact with TWC marketing and networking engineer for the past 6 months about the HD DVR. When the networking engineer received the email from the head of the division saying they were now available i immediately went to the main office in kettering, email in hand. Of course the boxes weren't ready yet, but the girl working the counter was very helpful and called me the second she had one in hand. My father went over there and was able to get 2 boxes, by saying he was contacted. And mlbUC was able to do the same exact thing. I was supposedly on lists as well, but never heard anything. I never trust anything the CSRs say, as i was calling weekly about the HDDVR eventhough i was in contact with people that actually knew what was going on, and with the CSRs you got a different story from each one you talked to. If you want this box, your best bet is to go to the Kettering office and try picking one up, i doubt very seriously you'll be able to schedule an appt and get one over the phone.

What's a good phone number to use to call WKEF when they miss ABC HD?

I have no "backup" ABC affiliate as I can't get Cincinnati or Columbus right now.

Call the newsroom + ask them to ask the MCO to switch to HD ... They used to have the newsroom number on their website, but I can't find it there presently ...

finally, i know where i'll be living

check out the map..looks like i'm 5 miles from fairborn..antennaweb says i'm about 60 miles from the columbus stations so i'll have to see if i can pick those up

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
finally, i know where i'll be living

check out the map..looks like i'm 5 miles from fairborn..antennaweb says i'm about 60 miles from the columbus stations so i'll have to see if i can pick those up

One good thing is you're on the south side of the AFB. That may help you with Cincy. I don't know it for a fact, but I've heard people say having to aim an antenna right through the base isn't the best thing for ota reception.

Paul

Call the newsroom + ask them to ask the MCO to switch to HD ... They used to have the newsroom number on their website, but I can't find it there presently ...

I'll see if it's in the phone book somewhere. Not that I watch much ABC HD, but they'll be getting calls from me if they miss HD on football.

I sent an e-mail comment to "technical/engineering" via their website asking if there are any plans to go Dolby Digital 5.1 on WKEF, but I'm not getting my hopes up. At least WRGT will have it courtesy of the Fox splicer.

Speaking of WRGT, are we supposed to be seeing dual bugs? I thought network bug was going to go away on splicer feeds and it would just be the local station bug. I think WRGT's "Fox45" logo could stand to be moved down a bit, it seems awfully far up off the bottom.

Originally posted by breedingamies
I'm up for it.

It would be real cool if we could combine a get together along with a station tour (with emphasis on HD, of course). A while back, I had emailed with Ch 2's chief engineer (I think it was 2) and he said that if we got a group together, we could tour the facilities. I know there are some guys on this board who have a good relationship with some of the engineers - what do you think?

I would be interested in a facility tour if we were able to get one.

WRGT DT will broadcast in full HD Sept. 12 according to the Eng. dept. as for the change over to ABC they had a few problems switching over to the 720p receiver and were not aware of Monday's programing in HD thus didn't make the switch until the complaints were called in. I'll try to find out more about the bug placement on WRGT latter this week and audio issues with both WKEF and WRGT.

I'm up for the station tour, now if we had an inside man (winks at Nitewatchman) we would be set...

You can contact Jim Atkinson, Chief Engineer at WDTN --- As buckeye 1010 noted, he has offered a group tour on previous occasions.

--------------

Concerning the Local station bug inserted via the Fox Splicer (among other things concerning Fox HD), you can find lots of info scattered about in this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4294581#post4294581

Interesting. I haven't seen anything go to Dolby 5.1 yet on WRGT, I wonder if they are just piping SD video into the splicer or something.

Call the newsroom + ask them to ask the MCO to switch to HD ... They used to have the newsroom number on their website, but I can't find it there presently ...

It works if you call the number on the contact page of the website (wkef22.com) and push 3 for news.

They will be hearing from me tonight if I find SD on for football. :)

Is MNF (and tonights game) supposed to be in DD 5.1?

Originally posted by browerjs
Is MNF (and tonights game) supposed to be in DD 5.1?

I think so. However, it seems that WKEF doesn't pass DD 5.1. Can you get WCPO or WSYX? I don't think CPO has their 5.1 up, but SYX supposedly can do 5.1. Unfortunately I can't get either of those two.

wcpo is still dd 2.0 - not 5.1 as of last night - and while I am at it - did anyone compare wkef and wcpo last week as far as quality of the mnf braodcast? - I only saw wcpo and the picture looked great - except for slow pans - during those you could lots of jaggies.. just wondering if I should turn the antenna tward dayton to see if wkef is any better

I was just flipping during commercials (I'm enjoying the WKEF HD feed of MNF) and noticed that Fox 45 (channel 745 on TWC) is having audio sync problems. Anyone else seeing this?

Update: Local news came on at 10:00pm and it is fine. Just a problem with the national feed?

No DD 5.1 for WKEF-ABC last night during the game, however i was very impressed with the PQ of the video comparing it to the CBS HD football. I also liked how during their halftime features they brought along the WS camera to film at training camps. I was suprised.

WDTN-NBC did have 5.1 for Joey last night, first NBC programming that i've seen in 5.1, very nice.

I think 2-1 sets the 5.1 flag anytime there is an HD signal, so you could be seeing 5.1 on shows that don't actually have it. Not sure though, I heard NBC was ramping up production of some 5.1 shows.

I usually check against WCMH in Columbus, since they are run out of NYC their encoder setting might serve as a benchmark.

I don't think WKEF has 5.1 capability, unfortunately. :(

I'm hearing rumblings that WTTE-DT 36 (Fox) in Columbus went to full power last night, so I'll be checking to see if I can pull them in.

Other people in the HDTV Programming section also reported it as 5.1, so who knows if it was WKEF and the flag or NBC sending 5.1.

on my onkyo 600 if its 2.1 - the reciever calls it "Dolby Digital - Pro Logic II" if its 5.1 or 5.1EX its just straight Dolby Digital

I found a post on the Columbus forum (HDColumbus) from someone at NBC4 saying that most new HD programming from NBC will have 5.1, including "Joey".

I hate to be the one to bring this back up....but when is TWC actually going to take HDTV seriously?

If you had aksed me a year ago today, I would have expected TWC to carry ESPN - HD, NBC-HD, WB - SD, the Cincy HD stations, and the remaining premium movie channel HD stations by this date. Instead, no real progress has been made; the addition of TNT-HD does not suffice.

Meanwhile, HD content of is increasing. The Bengals play Miami on ESPN - HD in a little over a week; the US Open was in HD on Bravo-HD.

Unfortunately, I can't get Voom -- I would have left a long time ago. I don't regret, however, picking up a Fusion HD card to pick up the OTA stations TWC refuses to carry.

Enough with my rant. Could anyone provide an update on the status of HDTV at TWC and their HDTV strategy for the future. Is TWC in active contract negotiations to obtain rights to carry additional HD content?

As for ESPN HD it's currently under negotiations at the corprote level (plenty of threads on it in the HDTV Programming section), Personally i'm fine with TWC HD with the exception of ESPNHD and WDTN in HD, but for the latter, i don't care too much considering i bring it in OTA. It would be nice to have some of the others but i doubt seriously that they are in that much of a demand.

Check This Out!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4329890#post4329890

Finally!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Great news! Not on TWC Western Ohio yet. Hopefully it will pop up soon!

i've tried putting my box into diagnostic mode (which had TNT HD, before it showed up regularly) and it's not there, tried rebooting and it's not there. I called a CSR and she said she had no idea, when i asked for her supervisor, miraculously she found out more information. Paperwork has not been completely finalized and when it is, it will pop up. Good news either way, hopefully we have it by tomorrow night!!!

browerjs,

I know how to reboot my TW HD box, but how do I put it in to diagnostic mode? What can you do in diagnostic mode?

Strange -- Don't know if this is a Network or local issue(considering the way the splicer is controlled at Network level as opposed to the switching between local/net occuring at the local level) as The bug I thought was coming from the "splicer" is up on WRGT-DT 30-1 at 8:20pm sat(that bug is not present on the analog BTW), but, the Video is the same video that's feeding the analog plant ... I can tell this because :

#1). The SD feed Fox bug is there in the 4x3 area ..

# 2). The Crease all the way across the screen to left of the Fox Bug for the SD feed is there ..

#3). Got the "stretch-o-vision"(which they can get rid of now, since Fox takes care of proper AR for splicer instead of the 601 video(16x9 NTSC or "anamorphic" that we used to get(but no more since Fox discontinued that feed after 9/8) from Fox Widescreen(which came from Fox RX C at the affiliate) -- too, which we normally get just during the local/syndicated stuff ...

Video from the "HD Feed" is however apparently coming through the splicer via WXIX-DT Cincinnati, Tonight, however (Cops SD upconverted to 720p at network level of course) ...

I would think its a local issue with the switching, but then again, if so I wouldn't think the "new" Fox 45 bug should be there(if its coming though the splicer) ?

With my SA8010HD (HDDVR) you hold select and enter on the front of the box, channel 611 is the diag menu if you want to look at it, but TNT-HD just showed up there at 756 before it was in regular mode... With the pioneer box i think you get to the diag mode by doing the same thing, but i can't remember for sure, a search will probably yield you the answer for sure though

well i placed a call to time warner to see if i could get a little information..boy o boy this is going to be hell..i was on hold for 30 mins and it is past midnight now..i had to let them know that their website has a whole page dedicated to customer service and i can't even get a hold of someone for 30 mins this late

also the lady i spoke to had no idea about HDTV or DVR's..

here's what i gather from the website and the lady over the phone

TWC current HD offerings:
spike tv(uhhh yeah sure)
discovery
cbs
tnt

hd tier: in hd 1 & 2, hdnet and hdnet movies for 7.95

dvr-2 tuners but doesn't do HD(makes no sense)
asked for DVR model number - don't know and no one else knows either

i stopped here because it was obvious that she was clueless

here are my questions,

1. what stations are offered in HD on TWC?
2. what model is the DVR? the post above me says SA8010 but yahoo search comes up with nothing..maybe it is SA8000?
3. does the HD dvr or cable box allow you to hook up OTA so you can pick up locals that they don't carry?

and finally,
4. If 3 is true, does the DVR allow you to record from OTA and from cable at the same time?

thanks for all the help

ESPN HD will be on the Western Ohio system, most likely within the next week barring any unforseen circumstances. The deal IS company wide regardless of what anyone else says. Also, if you are a fan of HDTV you can expect a few other goodies before the year as out as well as some new additions to the standard digital lineup including the home of classic cartoons Boomerang. If you are a fan of college sports you can view the newest addition to the Digital Sports Tier line-up, College Sports Television on channel 149 in the Western Ohio area.

Thank you for the support and enjoy your new programming!

I'm really suprised that the TWC CSR you talked to was clueless... (sarcasm laid on as thick as possible)...

Anyways, i'll try to give you some better information about TWC HD offerings:

Currently we get the following channels for free:

WHIO CBS-HD
WKEF ABC-HD
WRGT FOX-HD
PBS-HD
DiscoveryHD
TNTHD

HD-Tier:
InHD1
InHD2
HDNet
HDMovies
(Supposedly ESPNHD will be added any day)

Premiums:
HBO HD
SHO HD

the best way to go to get all the HD offering for the cheapest price is to get the Digipic 2000 package. It includes 2 premiums (I obviously chose HBO/SHO), their respective On Demands, and a choice of HD, Value, or Sport tier for $59.95, this pric also includes a box.

The actually HDDVR box is a SA8010 with pioneer passport software, but on the box itself it says it's a SA8000, (i know it's actually a SA8010 through talking to TWCWOH network engineer, i'm sure it's just a minor revision or something but he has always referred to it as 8010).

The HDDVR does not have an OTA hookup on it. The only station we don't get is WDTN NBC HD via TWC (which i pull in through my OTA box and an indoor antenna)...

The HDDVR has been an absoulte pain for people to get, I was very active in trying to pursue it and know when it came out, so i was in contact with the network engineer and the marketing director for this TWCWOH. Currently i only know of 4 boxes that are out in the field: I have one, my father has two, and mlbUC has one. Other people on here have said they've been unsuccessful in their attempts of getting one, but the best way to get one is to go into the main office in Kettering and place your order, because the people that work the desk actually know what they are talking about. Just mention that you know people that do have them. There is also a SD offereing of the SA8000 (and i think a newer revision 8010) as well.

Also i've found the quickest way to get a person at TWC is to call 18004252225, the extentions you need to dial at the prompt are: 1-0-3-2

after that you'll be on hold to talk to a real live Clueless Customer Service Rep (CCSR :) )

Originally posted by prophetvsprofit
ESPN HD will be on the Western Ohio system, most likely within the next week barring any unforseen circumstances. The deal IS company wide regardless of what anyone else says. Also, if you are a fan of HDTV you can expect a few other goodies before the year as out as well as some new additions to the standard digital lineup including the home of classic cartoons Boomerang. If you are a fan of college sports you can view the newest addition to the Digital Sports Tier line-up, College Sports Television on channel 149 in the Western Ohio area.

Thank you for the support and enjoy your new programming!

Do we actually have someone from TWC WOH that is monitoring the thread now :) If so this is great news, do you know what channel ESPN HD will be on and whether it will be part of the HD-Tier, or be free?

Thanks

I am not currently employed by Time Warner Cable in any manner. I do have many many friends who work in the Western Ohio division. That is how I obtain all of the information I do. I am simply a fan, same as you are happily enjoying "more bang for my buck". The reason I thanked you for your support is because without people like you I would not be enjoying the great new channels added to our lineup. I will try to sprinkle this board with information as I get it confirmed. Expect ESPN HD to be added to the HD Tier in close proximity to the other channels listed in your program guide.

Shew! I wasn't sure if we were going to get Fox HD today from WRGT-DT or not since they've been in "stretch-0-vision SD" mode on 30-1 since last night(including for Fox News Sunday+the pregame show today) -- but just after 1pm, they switched to FOX HD from the splicer! Finally! Fox HD is HERE! Whoo hoo!

What's up with WRGT-DT flipping back to SD from HD every now and then?

Well,

#1). I'd guess they are probably "kicking the tires", and checking things out with Fox HD this afternoon, don't know why though we had the SD stretch-o-vision up until game time for Fox programming since last night ... Anyway It's been pretty stable for the last several minutes ...

#2). Of course -- Switching between HD+SD (Such as for SD local commercials/etc) is "normal" to a certian extent... but, with the way Fox sends HD, (and, they are upconverting all Fox non-HD programming - (Including Widescreen SD shows like the pregame show+Fox News Sunday to 720p at network level and sending it out via the splicer) now, WRGT-DT should no longer need to stretch the local/syndicated 4x3 programming to 16x9 on 30-1 as was necessary for them previously(without having to switch between aspect ratio settings on their equipment for local/Fox programming anyway) given the way Fox used to send programming(including Fox Widescreen - as 601 video -- or in other words --- 16x9 NTSC video - or in other words -- 480i "anamorphic" video) to their digital affiliates(used to come off what is called RX C(sat receiver C) at the affiliate. ... Now that they have the splicers for HD and anything else from fox upconverted at the network level, the "old" Fox WS feed off RX C was discontinued by Fox on 9/8, and, that Fox Controls Aspect Ratio at the network level+ sends(or should) proper Aspect ratio via the splicer, no matter how AR is set to be sent at the local level -- In fact, when the video(and say, DD 5.1 audio) is coming from the splicer, the local equipment(such as the HD encoder) Before the transmitter/channel coding(i.e. Error correction/etc for RF transmission) is bypassed, anyway...

I know that last paragraph is not very understandable(sorry), I tried to squeeze it all into as little space as possible while of course trying to watch Football ;)

Hurray! Fox in Hd, and 5.1, looks nice from my couch. Is there a list of fox shows we can expect to see in Hd anywhere?

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
[B] here are my questions,

1. what stations are offered in HD on TWC? This page, http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/CLU/TWCCLUs.ashx?CLUID=119&Zip=&Image1.x=15&Image1.y=9&Image1=submit , should list what you want. Scroll alllll the way to the bottom.... browerjs already listed these same things, but at least it *is* on their website.

Regarding getting a hold of TW, get used to it. When I call, I routinely get a busy signal. Do they pay for so few incoming lines that this happens so often ?? I guess it's better than sitting in a hold queue though...

Jeff,

After reading #2 I think I need to take some Advil.... :D

I havent really said anything lately about this, since I dont really watch this station, but 30-2 is totally messed up for me. It has been like this since Fox did the widescreen update some months ago. The picture bounces up and down and looks like a vcr that the tracking is messed up on.Audio is fine, just video is unwatchable. Again, I dont watch this sattion at all, but it seems weird that no one else here is experiencing this problem. I'll try to snap a few pics later to show the problem.

Originally posted by jbh613
Is there a list of fox shows we can expect to see in Hd anywhere?

This seems to be a pretty good schedule that indicates what shows should be in HD from all the Nets this fall, Including Fox :

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/dstarlin/hdtv/fall04.htm

Dscussion of above schedule here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=436810&pagenumber=1

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Vader,

As for #2 above --- I edited a bit so perhaps it's more understandable ... why have 5 paragraphs when you can use parentheses, especially when you're trying to watch HD football when posting ;) -- But believe me I'm especially tired of discussing the "old" issues involved with the Fox/Fox WS Aspect Ratio issues, and -- it SHOULD be a complete non-issue now ...

No microblocking on WRGT football today, that I saw. But I did had a few micronaps today, though! Good job Fox!

by "microblocking" do you mean compression artifacts? I have heard of macroblocking but that usually refers to DVD copy protection. That aside the feed was looking nice. I especially enjoyed watching the Simpsons in Hd with 5 channel audio, even though the audio kept hiccuping.

browerjs:

is the dvr a 2 tuner model? that kind of sucks that they haven't released it to the public yet..wonder what the hell is going on

hall:

yes i checked the twc site...but you know how it goes..they may or may not have the latest lineups

also, they have different HD channels for dayton and south of dayton...one of the affiliates isn't carried when you select south of dayton

so i guess we'll see..nbc is no biggie for me..i'd be happy with cbs,abc,fox and a dvr

MacroVISON is a process(and a company I believe) used for copy protection ...

Compression artifacts are often reffered to as Macroblocking here(or pixelization which can mean other things as well), but Macroblocking really isn't the most accurate term to use(I'm fine with either macroblocks or microblocks though, since I know what the poster is talking about) as macroblocks are actually an integral part of how MPEG2 compression works which has nothing to do with MPEG2 compression artifacts .. However, "macroblocking" or "microblocking" would seem to be an accurate description in a "that is what it looks like" sense when describing what often happens with over-compressed looking MPEG2 video, such as what we often get from bandwidth demanding sections of programming from PBS HD/widescreen from WPTD-DT/WPTO-DT/WCET-DT/WCVN-DT/WOSU-DT, and, during Bandwidth demanding CBS programming from WHIO-DT(such as NFL HD football) (picture, or parts of the picture(such as Steven Tyler dancing around on stage during last year's Superbowl pregame show --- breaks up into lots of "big" or "small" blocks) ...

If you wanted to see some MPEG2 compression artifacts today from WRGT-DT, you should have checked out 30-2(yes, I know for some weird reason it doesn't work with jbh's receiver, but, if it did ...) when HD football was running on 30-1, the latter which I also thought looked very good, exactly the same as it did on WXIX-DT Cincinnati ... 30-2 was fine compression artifact wise during the simpsons(Fox's MPEG2 encoder can use a LOT less data bandwidth for the Simpsons than would be the case for NFL HD football during, say a camera pan) ... See the info from the Fox engineers(at Fox and affiliates) in the Fox HD related threads in the programming area at AVSforum for more info on how Fox HD+the splicer works ...

Thanks Jeff. How about "pixelization" as a standard word for that? Or is there a better word? Yes, HD football on WHIO is the classic local example of that.

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
hall: yes i checked the twc site...but you know how it goes..they may or may not have the latest lineups

also, they have different HD channels for dayton and south of dayton...one of the affiliates isn't carried when you select south of dayton Those lineups, one would have to believe, are "customized" for each area. You're not moving to the "south of dayton" area either...

The one not listed I presume you mean is WCET. That's just *another* PBS station, but this is one from Cincinnati.

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
browerjs:

is the dvr a 2 tuner model? that kind of sucks that they haven't released it to the public yet..wonder what the hell is going on


Yes it is a 2 tuner model, and the HDDVR has been released to the public, but from what i've heard only in a limited quantity. Supposedly there were only 70 units in the initial shipment, and like i said i only know of 4 that are out there, i'm sure there are more however.

I emailed TWC WOH marketing director asking about the ESPNHD. She confirmed that the deal was done and that we would be receiving the channel "shortly".

Originally posted by buckeye1010
Thanks Jeff. How about "pixelization" as a standard word for that? Or is there a better word?

Well, pixelization seems fine to me for the most part, only thing is, pixelization can result for other reasons besides too much compression ... .. For instance, you might see some pixelization on the screen occasionally if you have a very marginal signal if the decoder is having a really hard time decoding all the bits being sent, or say when there is a nearby lightning strike(impulse noise/etc) .. Or, when the station isn't getting a good enough signal from the sat feed ...

A little more info on ESPNHD through TWC WOH...

I emailed the network engineer at TWCWOH and he said they are targeting Thursday morning for ESPNHD to be available, and that it would be a part of the HD Tier.

As long as it's up by Sunday night I'll be happy!

Concerning Sunday between 1pm~1:45pm on WRGT-DT :

Originally posted by Vader
What's up with WRGT-DT flipping back to SD from HD every now and then?

Here's a better explanation than I was able to provide :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4346332#post4346332

In addition to Fox Guy's post, also see videojanitor
and bdfox18doe's following posts in above thread on the subject.

Still wish they'd drop the "Stretching" of Local/Syndicated programming on 30-1 though, since it's no longer needed for them to send proper AR(aspect ratio) for Fox programming ... I sent them a note about it a couple days back asking them to send proper AR on 30-1 for local/syndicated programming ...

I suppose though its no big deal as long as the video from the splicer is allways used for Fox programming, as I can still watch 30-2(or change the channel entirely) when necessary for local/syndicated stuff -- very little(if any) of which I watch from WRGT anyway except local news occasionally or when they have shown "The odd couple"/etc. occaisonally ... But, if you're like me and think that stations should send proper AR for all programming at all times, you might want to drop them a note or give them a call ....

--------------

ESPNHD through TWC WOH is up in Sidney on HD Tier CH. 765!

ESPNHD through TWC WOH is up in Sidney on HD Tier CH. 765!

Is it Sunday night yet?! :D

It's about time. Now let's get a Buckeye game in HD.

Kerbs, (or anyone else with TWC in Sidney area)

I've got TWC HD in the Sidney area and channel 755 Discovery HD has been getting pixelated quite a bit the last couple of days. Also, channel 756 TNT HD is blank. Are you experiencing this too? Thanks.

UPDATE: As of 5:00pm Friday, 756 TNT HD is back. The pixelation on 755 Discovery HD seems to be gone too.

Vader, I did see the same problems you mentioned. Looks like all is well today!

Just called TWC to swap the digital value tier for the HD tier in the DigiPic 2000 package and ESPN HD is there! If not for this thread I never would have noticed, so thanks to everyone.

Now if the Bengals can beat the Dolphins in HD on Sunday night...

Is anyone out there using FusionHDTVIII QAM capture card or an equivalent to record HDTV? I'd like to know what channels TWC is sending unencrypted before I buy an HD capture card. I am particularly concerned about ESPN HD. Thanks.

What a Great HD day so far .. Wow ... 4 HD games today broadcast in Dayton/Cincinnati ... This Has certianly been the most OTA HD filled NFL HD sunday in SW Ohio ... EVER ... :

1pm:

Pittsburgh/Baltimore -- CBS HD on WKRC-DT Cincy - Looked beautiful ..
Indy/TN - CBS HD on WHIO-DT Dayton(but with with too much pixelization)
Bears/Packers - Fox HD on WRGT-DT Dayton/WXIX-DT Cincy

4pm:

Cleveland/Dallas - CBS HD on WKRC-DT Cincy/WHIO-Dayton - Looks Beautiful on WKRC-DT, Pixelization like crazy on WHIO-DT whenever anything moves ....

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We could almost have a FREE HD "Sunday ticket" from the Locals here every sunday .... ;)

And of course, not OTA unfortunetly, but there's also the Miami/Cincy game in HD on ESPN-HD tonight ...

It just doesn't get any better than this (well, unless WHIO-DT could raise the bitrate on 41-1 to what it NEEDS to be(meaning no room for anything else except oppurtunistic data) for HD sports/etc ...)

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
What a Great HD day so far .. Wow ... 4 HD games today broadcast in Dayton/Cincinnati ... This Has certianly been the most OTA HD filled NFL HD sunday in SW Ohio ... EVER ... :

1pm:

Pittsburgh/Baltimore -- CBS HD on WKRC-DT Cincy - Looked beautiful ..
Indy/TN - CBS HD on WHIO-DT Dayton(but with with too much pixelization)
Bears/Packers - Fox HD on WRGT-DT Dayton/WXIX-DT Cincy

4pm:

Cleveland/Dallas - CBS HD on WKRC-DT Cincy/WHIO-Dayton - Looks Beautiful on WKRC-DT, Pixelization like crazy on WHIO-DT whenever anything moves ....

-------------------
We could almost have a FREE HD "Sunday ticket" from the Locals here every sunday .... ;)

And of course, not OTA unfortunetly, but there's also the Miami/Cincy game in HD on ESPN-HD tonight ...

It just doesn't get any better than this (well, unless WHIO-DT could raise the bitrate on 41-1 to what it NEEDS to be(meaning no room for anything else except oppurtunistic data) for HD sports/etc ...)

Yep, wonderful day for HD. I had a Steeler fan and a Browns fan visiting today. :)

Watched the Steelers game on WKRC with occasional flips to WHIO and the Fox game on WRGT.
Also watched first half of Browns game on WKRC and then flipped to WBNS to get 5.1 sound in the second half (reception got better later in the day). Did not watch WHIO due to aforementioned poor PQ issues caused by multicast.

Is anyone out there using FusionHDTVIII QAM capture card or an equivalent to record HDTV?

I have a Fusion III QAM card. It will get you the stuff on Time Warner that's not in the HD pay tier. That's the following:
WHIO-DT (QAM channel 91.1)
WKEF-DT (93.2)
WRGT-DT (93.1)
WPTD-DT 108.1-5
WPTO-DT 108.6-10
WCET-DT 109.1-4
Discovery HD 114.1
TNT HD 114.2

Stopped by TW in Kettering on Friday and picked up the HD-DVR (Scientific America Explorer 8000HD). Works like a champ and records HD very nicely. They must have plenty of them, no questions asked if I was on a waiting list or not.

No sound currently from WKEF-DT ABC.

Yep, no sound!:mad:

I am really missing WDTN for an ABC affiliate.

Ia there anyone we can call about the sound? I am getting audio on 22-2

Sound is up as of 2108 hrs.

Great! I was going to try syncing my Sirius sat radio to the video otherwise. :)

The question is whose home radio announcers do I feel like listening to.

I miss WDTN too.....I tried WCPO and WSYX but I can't get either of them.

1450kHz,

Are you happy with Sirius? I am debating between Sirius and XM.

I got Sirius satellite because they blocked us from listening to streaming audio (Internet radio) at my office. I like it so far.
Pluses:
--They had some formats I liked that weren't on XM.
--Satellites are at a high angle, so I can listen to it in the hills and hollers of SE Ohio without terrain blockage problems. (I have family there, and I heard that some XM users have trouble in deep valleys because their sats are at a lower angle and get blocked by the hillsides).
--Every NFL game with home and away announcers.
--Deal to carry Ohio State games (this actually came a while after I got it, but it was a nice bonus).

Minuses:
--Music repetition on some of the channels.
--Harder to get indoors because the satellites aren't stationary.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Minuses:
--Harder to get indoors because the satellites aren't stationary. I have no trouble getting it indoors.... oh wait, that's 'cause it comes in via Dish Network. :)

While watching Monday Night Football, I kept getting video drop outs every few minutes. Was anyone else getting this? The audio was there just no video. It would black for a few seconds at a time.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
--Every NFL game with home and away announcers.
--Deal to carry Ohio State games (this actually came a while after I got it, but it was a nice bonus).

.

Is this a premium service or is it included in the monthly fee?

Originally posted by DaytonBuckeye
While watching Monday Night Football, I kept getting video drop outs every few minutes. Was anyone else getting this? The audio was there just no video. It would black for a few seconds at a time.

I wonder if that's just a variation on the "normal" WKEF behavior. I've often noticed incidents where the video freezes while the sound continues going. Lately I've also noticed incidents of audio dropouts while the video keeps working. Not sure what the problem is (encoder related maybe?).

Sirius doesn't have any "premium" content tiers, the NFL and sports are at no extra fee.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Not sure what the problem is (encoder related maybe?).


I have no idea either .... But, I can tell you that(sorry this is long winded) :

#1) it is NOT a reception related issue, for some of the reasons stated in #3 farther below.

#2) I don't recall ever seeing this problem between feb 2002(when WKEF-DT first came on air with NBC HD olympics), and a certian point in Fall or winter 2002 (I think I may have first seen the issue occur during the first ER episode NBC sent in HD(2002 premiere episode) -- but don't quote me on that). Since then its happened ever since, on average(sometimes more often), say once every 15 minutes or so during NBC HD, and now ABC HD (including about 3x between 9:15~10pm during HD "Lost" on Wed) ...

If I recall correctly(and I may not be, exactly), the problem began occuring immediately after they had to replace a bad Fiber transmitter they used for their STL. --- Seems as if I recall contacting them around that time because NBC HD(which, between jan-sept 2002 consisted solely of the SLC Olympics, "Leno, Crossing Jordan", and a Summer 2002 Elvis Movie) was missing around that time for a few days(and, at that specific time they were my only NBC HD source, as WLWT-DT was off air for much of Summer/Fall 2002, as the top 1/2 of their tower was on the ground for strengthening in order to support the WCET-DT/WLWT-DT permanent antennas), and was informed by their CE that a fiber transmitter($$,$$$) for a STL went bad, and they were having it airmailed to get it replaced. I have no idea whether or not the new STL transmitter, or installation thereof(i.e. something is perhaps effecting something else unexpectedly/etc.) had anything to do with it "directly", or "indirectly" but, just as a WAG solely because of the timing involved, it seems to me somewhat plausible ... In any event, whatever is causing it, I'd guess it probably is a difficult bug to track down for their engineering folks ...

#3). I've only seen it happen during HD, not during local/Syndicated programming, and never on 51-2 when it's happening on 51-1, and Never during NBC HD from WLWT-DT when it's happening on 51-1, or now, ABC HD on WCPO-DT. If it's an encoder related issue(which I'd think it certianly could be as well), it doesn't seem to be anything "receiver model specific", as it seems everyone seems to be seeing the issue. Doesn't seem to be an issue with the sat feed(or dish alignment/etc), or the receiver they use(d) for ABC(NBC) HD, either(a past "theory" of mine), since it's happening with ABC HD now, as it was with NBC HD previously, and again, the problem is not occuring(simultanously or otherwise) with other NBC/ABC HD affiliates.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

On another note, noticed WRGT-DT 30-1 continues to send "stretchovision" during local/syndicated programming whearas (thankfully) none of the other Cincy/Dayton stations do(unless WKOI-DT/TBN is still doing it since last time I looked at them last winter). I did, however notice during some of the tropo earlier this week that WEWS-DT 15 Cleveland is unfortunetly stretching local/syndicated programming.

WXIX-DT seemed to have figured out on the first day of Fox HD (9/12) that they no longer need to change aspect ratio settings(as used to be necessary for The "old" Fox digital/Fox WS feed off RX C) on their equipment in order to send proper aspect ratio for both Fox programming AND local/syndicated programming ... I've sent WRGT-DT notes about it several times, but to no avail so far it seems.

WHIO-DT is currently remapping via PSIP to 7-1 and 7-2 for first time I've ever noticed.

YES! That makes life with the HD Tivo much easier! Thank you WHIO!

hola

i've finally settled in here..moved in on the 20th..no internet access or i would've posted sooner..getting cable tv and internet set up on the 2nd of next month

HDTV has been a bummer for me..I purchased a pretty big antenna(50") and put it on my apartment balcony to try and pick up cinci stations..but i couldn't..getting a weak weak signal on all the channels..only the local dayton stuff is coming in

WKEF has been pretty crappy as far as switching to HD when primetime(8 pm) starts...the two shows i've watched, my wife and kids and Lost had HD only after 20 mins and 5 mins respectively..really sucks..i thought at the least that i could've rec'd cinci.

WHIO is abominable..shows like CSI are pixelated..why on earth can't they drop the bitrate on the multicast at least during HD hours??

there goes afc football for me..i'm sure it is going to be pixel city like some of you have indicated.

the local nbc station(1080i) also multicasts but i have seen no difference in HD quality..it looks rock solid because they keep the bitrate on the multicast really really low

major suckage

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
the local nbc station(1080i) also multicasts but i have seen no difference in HD quality..it looks rock solid because they keep the bitrate on the multicast really really low


Hmmm .. perhaps I'm a little more particular ;)

I did a PQ comparision between WDTN-DT 2-1(NBC Dayton) and WLWT-DT(NBC Cincy) During HD ER HD on Thrusday night, and I noticed compression artirfacts(albeit generally mild) on WDTN-DT when there was a lot of movement going on/etc that were just not there on WLWT-DT.

--------------------------

I did read a post from a engineer at a ABC affiliate on another thread concerning the fact that ABC sends non-HD programming as upconverted on the HD feed(during prime time at least), so it would seem like it shouldn't be too difficult for them(WKEF-DT - ABC Dayton) to keep from missing ABC HD ... But, then again, I guess they do have TWO stations(WKEF/WRGT - well 4 if you count the analogs) to take care of up there ... When they Do do HD, AND those strange short losses of Video, or both A/V aren't happening .... if its any consolation, Currently, ABC HD PQ IS better from WKEF-DT than it is from WCPO-DT ABC Cincinnati, which has had an Odd "jaggies"(all the time, not just compression artifacts) problem lately .. Last time I saw WSYX-DT ABC HD columbus though, it did look good, as did their upconverts ...

Anyhow .... I also noticed today that WRGT-DT 30-1(Fox Dayton) was sending stretch-o-vision this afternoon during Fox baseball -- SAME video feeding analog 45+30-2 with the crease all the way across the screen near the SD Fox bug, just as is allways the case during Fox programming on 30-2 and analog 45 the past couple of years .
..
What we've usually been getting during Fox programming on 30-1 the past few weeks from them has been Fox HD, or Fox WS or 4x3 Fox stufff(both in correct Aspect ratio, although none of the local/syndicated stuff has been) that is upconverted at the network level+sent via the HD splicer, both of which looks much better and doesn't cause me to flip channels To Fox Cincinnati like everything else they air does .....

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
HDTV has been a bummer for me..I purchased a pretty big antenna(50") and put it on my apartment balcony to try and pick up cinci stations..but i couldn't.. Weren't you going to try for Columbus' channels ?? They might be closer than Cincy's for you where you're located.

I get WBNS and WCMH from Columbus most of the time with the Radio Shack -75R Yagi and Channel Master 7777 preamp in my attic. Reception is better at night though.

As Cincinnati goes, I get WKRC and WLWT always, and WXIX, WCET, WPTO most nights with combined CM4221 4-bays and 7777 preamp.

I'm thinking about switching from satellite to cable, and I know the answer to my question lies somewhere deep in this thread, but I'll ask anyways to spare the time. I'm looking for the Time Warner package that includes the HD tier plus the HD premiums with a HD dvr, what would I expect to pay for that monthly?

I think I can answer this as I'm seriously considering the same thing.... TW doesn't offer anything like that specifically. Their published packages are Digipac 1000, 2000, and 4000. The 1000 won't meet your requests, so we'll leave it out.

The 2000 costs $59.95/month. You get channels 2-78 or so, as well as a digital set-top box (HD, non-HD, or DVR, but *not* an HD-DVR). You also get (1) digital channel tier to pick and the "HD Tier" can be the one you choose. You also get to pick (2) of the following: HBO, Showtime, The Movie Channel, Cinemax. These are the whole packages, up to (14) channels for HBO, as an example. HBO and Showtime do include their HD channels.

Now, since you're getting "two or more premium movie channels" -- that's the wording from their site -- the DVR costs an extra $4.95/month. If you only were getting (1) movie channel, the DVR would cost $9.95/month.

In your case, roughly $65/month + taxes and what-not.

I've only been watching the MNF HD game tonight since 10pm, but, as of 10:45 I have NOT seen any of the dropout "glitches" on WKEF-DT 51-1 so far ... I'm not sure it has ever(since Fall 2002 anyway) went that long during HD before having a "glitch" ..... Fingers crossed here ...

Earlier, (between 8:30-9pm) I did notice that it looked like they might have been working on the issue(possibly making some adjustments to their encoder or other equipment), as I was getting such things such as some piece of their equipment producing a Blue Screen with a error message of "Video Alarm 351", instead of blank screen/w audio/etc during where it looked like the glitches we are used to were happening ..

Originally posted by hall
The 2000 costs $59.95/month. You get channels 2-78 or so, as well as a digital set-top box (HD, non-HD, or DVR, but *not* an HD-DVR).

I've seen people on here talk about their HD DVRs, so how do I go about getting one...$?

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

Earlier, (between 8:30-9pm) I did notice that it looked like they might have been working on the issue(possibly making some adjustments to their encoder or other equipment), as I was getting such things such as some piece of their equipment producing a Blue Screen with a error message of "Video Alarm 351", instead of blank screen/w audio/etc during where it looked like the glitches we are used to were happening ..

Actually, from 8-8:33, there was no audio at all on WRGT-DT. (and the show "Benefactor" from 8-9 has yet to be shown in HD in Dayton).

I had a hard time convincing my wife that "Video Alarm 351" had nothing to do with the fact that I hacked my SD Tivo over the weekend to get it on my home network. I'll definitely show her this post!