Originally posted by Rakesh.S
also i don't think i ever posted the response i received from WHIO..here it is


Cool! At least it looks like they are looking at the issue, now. I'll have to send them a thank you note when they get the DD 5.1 issue straightened out.

Oh, just a suggestion, but -- if you haven't already -- you might want to tell him you are getting the problem via TW cable as well as OTA.

I would note that I thought it has perhaps looked a little better from WHIO-DT the past couple of weeks, and I wonder if they might have made some adjustments to their encoder. First noticed it last week, when It looked like the spinning NFL logo didn't look as bad as usual from them. Then again though, I could just be seeing things, as it is not THAT much different, and I can still see problems even during upconverted 4x3 SD at times when there's a lot of "busy stuff" going on, which shouldn't be as hard on the encoder because of the "black bar" areas.

I think what he is probably thinking of on the "signal issue", is that it IS true that if you have a very marginal(I mean VERY marginal) signal, just at, or barely a teeny bit over the threshold required for Good DTV reception, it IS possible for "extra" pixelization to be added at the decoder end, because the decoder is working overtime with error correction.

I don't believe that is the problem, however. At least not here, and probably not for TW cable viewers either. For instance, here, OTA --- I can add as much as 30db of atteunation into the feedline before the signal quality meter on my receiver drops from WHIO-DT to any extent(the same is true from WKRC-DT) - Even though I'm RIGHT in the middle of WHIO-DT antenna pattern's null, I'm only 12 miles from their tower and have a 25 element UHF yagi on a 40 foot tower which I use to receive them. I don't know the exact amount of extra attenuation it would take to lose a lock from them entirely, as I don't have anything that will let me pad the signal that much ...

Also, On occasion, when I've seen WBNS-DT and have been able to compare to WHIO-DT during SEC/NFL HD football, at times WBNS-DT 21 has been barely above(and sometimes not above) the level of signal required for OTA DTV/ATSC reception(approx 16db of signal over noise) Having WKEF 22 analog on 1st adjacent channel doesn't help with the "noise" part with them either. And, yet, I didn't see ANY problems with pixelization/compression artifacts originating from WBNS-DT, except when screen data loss occured due to the signal going below threshold. It looked especially beautiful on WBNS-DT during comparisons to WHIO-DT/WKRC-DT prior to this year, because WKRC-DT had "HD bitrate problems" prior to this this summer as well ...

This was before you moved to Dayton ---- But -- WKRC-DT HD PQ USED to be almost indistinguishable from WHIO-DT, that is, back when they were giving CBS HD 15mb/s Maximum, and they were allocating at least 4mb/s at all times(maybe more at times via available oppurtunistic bandwidth) to their "webhopper" internet acceleration service ... Which they discontinued early this summer+began to give HD "everything" -- which of course we all noticed.

I'm wondering a bit about the current WKRC-DT situation, however. As during SEC HD games the past few weeks, I seem to be getting more in the way of artifacting from them than was the case, say with earlier NFL HD games this year, although I haven't noticed any problems so far from them during NFL HD or anything else. As you may have noticed with WHIO-DT, even certian portions of CSI and other HD programming originating from film are a problem from WHIO-DT, as used to be the case with WKRC-DT as well, before they dropped "webhopper") So at this point I'm not sure if it is a CBS/production issue involving the SEC games, or encoder specific, or bitrate issue - Or if I'm just seeing things, which I doubt .... I do wonder what WBNS-DT HD looks like during SEC football these days though ... I haven't seen them in a while ...

"Steve Hardy" might not appreciate having his information posted here.... Out of respect for him, unless he told you it was okay to post, I'd remove it.

Originally posted by hall
"Steve Hardy" might not appreciate having his information posted here.... Out of respect for him, unless he told you it was okay to post, I'd remove it.

yea forgot about it..just copied and pasted the email

Yes, Good editing job Rakesh. Sometimes you have to be careful about that sort of thing ...

Unless there is something in the communication that says otherwise, although you have to keep in mind that private communications are meant to be private -- In this case, I personally wouldn't see anything wrong with passing along the "important" info from the response you received from them ... If necessary, In an accurate manner using your own words perhaps, although I don't personally see the need for that in this case ...

There is certianly nothing in it that that can be condisered "derogatory" or negative towards them, and IMO, it IS good for you to tell others about his response, as among other things, I think it shows that he/they are concerned about the issue+their HD viewers, which I think is especially important in this case that viewers here DO see that coming from them, as I don't believe that is something we have heard from them before.

I actually didn't mean that "Steve" would or could get in trouble. More along the lines of people have a name, phone #, and e-mail address now.... He could be contacted by people for completely unrelated stuff.

I had posted "quotes" from someone at Time Warner regarding the WB and when it will start showing up (and just "confirmed" a day or two ago by the TW employee or friend-of-an-employee who posts here) but made sure not to include the name of the person who provided it to me.

It looks like WRGT is having problems... NFL Pregame show isn't widescreen or 5.1 like it usually is... I'll be calling as soon as the Rams/Seahawks game starts if it isn't fixed... Also has anyone noticed lip syncing problems on WHIO-DT? NFL Today is way off right now, and King of Queens was pretty bad on Wed.

Noticed WDTN-DT had Nascar in Widescreen right off the bat, today, which is good. They've had some problems in previous weeks(but then again so has NBC on occasion) that for the most part hasn't been an issue with WLWT-DT Cincinnati, and I've had to call WDTN - But not this week.

For those of you with TW who don't know -- It is quite rare for WDTN-DT to miss HD/Widescreen -- From either NBC presently, or ABC when they were ABC affiliate. And of course, they have all the DD 5.1 for the NBC programming that is DD 5.1, as was the case with ABC as well.

Browerjs,

WHIO-DT RE:

I wasn't watching WHIO-DT during those times, but haven't noticed any problems when I have checked them. Sometimes, it can be an issue on the decoder end, and if you switch channels to another station+switch back, it will fix it.

I DO Notice they are apparently having some problems with analog 7 plant to today, which I've seen before from them, but it's been a while-- "squiggly" little verticle lines all across the picture. Isn't there on the digital, including 7-2.

WRGT-DT RE:

Noticed They just switched to HD at about 1:13pm. Thanks for calling them.

I did notice that, just after the game started, they ran a message at bottom of screen(on analog 45 as well) with the http://www.myfreehdtv.org/ logo (Sinclair is a "big" supporter of that website as well as OTA HD + these days, BTW) -- Which of course did not come from Fox -- It also said something like "This program is available in FREE over the air HD".

That's pretty cool that they are putting that in there, and especially on the analog 45. Just not so good that at the time, it wasn't "available" in HD from them ;)

Re: King of Queens, lip sync

Yes, we did notice that the other day when we watched it. For the non-DVR people, it can happen (quite often ??) that the audio and video get out of sync on recordings. 99% of the time, a quick 5-10 rewind will fix it. With King of Queens the other night, NOTHING helped. I did finally suspect that it was NOT the DVR at fault. Thanks for confirming that browerjs.

I had posted "quotes" from someone at Time Warner regarding the WB and when it will start showing up (and just "confirmed" a day or two ago by the TW employee or friend-of-an-employee who posts here)

I'll report if I see any new QAM activity. Nothing so far except the usual.

I can get good quality direct screenshots of any HD feed using my Fusion 3 QAM card, if we need more "evidence" for these station engineers. I think they come out at native resolution though, so I'll make sure not to try posting any 1920x1080 captures. :) I'm able to route my antennas to either my Samsung box or my Fusion 3 card, so I can screen-cap WBNS if we need it. I have it on right now so I can see Steelers @ Browns game today.

Originally posted by hall
Re: King of Queens, lip sync

Yes, we did notice that the other day when we watched it. For the non-DVR people, it can happen (quite often ??) that the audio and video get out of sync on recordings. 99% of the time, a quick 5-10 rewind will fix it. With King of Queens the other night, NOTHING helped. I did finally suspect that it was NOT the DVR at fault. Thanks for confirming that browerjs.

It definately wasn't TWC box or feed problems, whenever i see syncing problems i switch right over to OTA to check and see if it's cable related or not.

Anyone else watch CBS's Category 6: Day of Destruction sunday night ?

(part 2 Wed)

Was supposed to be in 1080i
Looked like WHIO was either having problems or blew the switch.

I was channel hopping earlier and thought I saw Cold Case in HD at the start, but later towards the end it looked like it was back to SD?

Was very disappointed, the show itself was ok, I was really hoping to get a feel for the future since this was an CBS production, was really looking
for them to showcase HDTV.

ps

May have added another convert, my brother inlaw went HDTV shopping yesterday :) I think the constant talk of football in HD finally got to him ;)




Mad

We watched Cold Case and I didn't notice any "switch". Then again, that's one of the shows that I can't see a great benefit of high-definition from... It's kinda a dreary look all the time, probably similar to CSI:NY.

Was Cold Case delayed because of a football game ??? Never mind, I know it was now that I recall.... Unless WHIO has the equipment to tape-delay HD programming, and many stations don't, it will be shown in SD. Does anyone know if WHIO, and the other locals, for that matter, have this ability ??

Originally posted by hall
We watched Cold Case and I didn't notice any "switch". Then again, that's one of the shows that I can't see a great benefit of high-definition from... It's kinda a dreary look all the time, probably similar to CSI:NY.




So Hall did you see ColdCase in HD?, I'm almost sure towards the it was in SD.

I agree about the dreary look. Looks like they film them all through a
dark polaroid lens or something.


ya it was delayed about 15 mins maybe that messed things up somehow?

Guess I'll have to wait and see how wed part 2 looks

Originally posted by hall
Was Cold Case delayed because of a football game ??? Never mind, I know it was now that I recall.... Unless WHIO has the equipment to tape-delay HD programming, and many stations don't, it will be shown in SD. Does anyone know if WHIO, and the other locals, for that matter, have this ability ??

#1). Yes, it was delayed because of football. Bengals Game Ran over -- "60 Minutes" started about 7:14pm.

#2). The local affiliate doesn't "tape delay" CBS primetime/etc. given a situation like this when football runs over. It would be different if it was a local UD game/etc. of course. CBS Has seperate Network to affiliate SD paths they can send different affiliates, depending upon what game they got/etc. However, They DON'T have this capability with HD, at least not to the same extent as with SD, and THAT is why we didn't get HD from either station in the area which ran the Bengals game(WKRC-DT, Cincinnati, WHIO-DT Dayton). IF they would have switched to the HD feed with Cold Case+the movie, then the local ad inserts would be out of sync -- In other words, they wouldn't have been able to insert them on the DT station. A lot of the time, they'll try to "sync up stuff" so many affiliates will leave different games at the same time(and you'll go to a different game for the end of it/etc), and can join CBS Prime at the same time but that didn't happen last night, since there were probably few affiliates that carried the Sole CBS late game(Bengals at Redskins).

#3). I don't know if any Dayton station has the ability to "tape delay" HD, but I would assume WPTD-DT probably does. WKRC-DT, WCPO-DT, WPTO-DT+WCET-DT Cincinnati have, in the past aired HD on a local level -- Either from a Live event(2000~2003 HD WEBN Fireworks on WKRC-DT), or from a recording. In the case of of the Syndicated HD-one movie package(which WKRC-DT USED to have at least, and WWHO-DT Columbus still does), that would involve recording the HD movie off a sat feed(To a server or pperhaps D-VHS/D-Theater based recording device) for later playback over air. WPTO-DT has time shifted PBS HD every weekend evening, WCET-DT has aired a HD program here and there that wasn't "live" on the nat'l PBS HD feed.

Originally posted by Madb
So Hall did you see ColdCase in HD?, I'm almost sure towards the it was in SD.

I agree about the dreary look. Looks like they film them all through a
dark polaroid lens or something. I really can't say.... Take something like CSI:Miami and the difference between HD and SD is night and day. I will say that I'm 99.9% sure that is was widescreen. That there suggests it was HD.... I'm unable to stretch any of the channels in the 700 range on TW Cable. Why ?? Whether or not they're "HD", apparently they're being sent in 720p or 1080i format and when that's the case, my TV's re-sizing ability is locked out (it will only stretch 480i signals).

Coldcase is most definitely HD, except for last night of course when it was 4x3 from the SD feed(upconverted at the station to 1080i) in Dayton+Cincinnati, since WHIO-DT/WKRC-DT didn't provide HD for the reasons mentioned above.

First thing to keep in mind, is that this sort of PQ issue is VERY subjective, and also sometimes what you see depends a lot on the display type/display settings/Calbration issues/etc/etc/etc. Nevertheless, All HD is NOT going to be "razor sharp", and look like the HD video from the Tonight Show, for various reasons -- That doesn't mean it's not "good" HD PQ, and it doesn't mean that if it isn't razor sharp, that it's a SD upconvert, either. It doesn't allways work, but, looking at details(if they are in focus) in the background often works to help you spot what is HD and what isn't. IF you want to see "Soft" HD, check out some of the shots in HD "Everwood" a compare it to what you get from "Coldcase", or Say "Smallville" or CSI. ... At least that is the way it has been so far from many of the indoors Everwood HD scenes when I've checked it out this season.

And, even SD can look very "good" - Say, from DVD or on a 5($) figure "professional" monitor, and, also unfortunetly many of today's HD sets often don't seem to do such a great job with SD.

However, in any case, IMO if you can't tell much difference between SD+HD for "Coldcase", then IMO the issue involved is likely something on your end, not the way the show is produced+transferred to HD. And no, I'm not saying there's anything "wrong" necessarily -- could just be the way your "eye" sees things. At least presently -- For the most part My eyes are probably very much biased towards Film for various reasons, -- not to say that I don't "like" HD video, I do ---- and, also -- in some cases I like some of the things they do to make a show have a certian look -- I don't watch either show regularly, but, I like what they do with "Coldcase"(sort of seems to have a "cold blue" sort of "look to it" to me, but with lots of detail+Contrasts -- (my eyes seem to primarily "automatically" focus on the Female lead for the sections of it I've seen however) --- Sort of like what you'd think of from a scene from a Morgue, or a "concrete jungle") moreso than what they do with that sort of "sepia tone" CSI has had when I've checked it out, which sort of reminds me of the scenes from "The Matrix" from "In the matrix". But Yeah, I agree CSI/CSI Miami looks Super sharp HD wise and is probably a good show to show the guests the "amazing difference" between HD+SD ...

Just my opinion, but many "indoor" type shows (Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens, Cold Case (to some extent)) don't benefit terribly from being done in HD. Then again, I can flip from channel 7 (analog, SD) to channel 707 (digital, SD) and definitely notice a difference. Hell, I prefer watching the 6 or 11 o'clock news on the DT feeds. :)

Outdoor shows, or those with lots of outside shots, definitely "shine" in HD. A neighbor was over Sunday asking about getting an HDTV. I showed them the Seattle vs St Louis game in HD and said "this is what HD looks like". Then I flipped it to the analog channel showing the same game. He asked "what's that ??". I told him "the same game". He didn't believe it. It can be like you're watching two different games, IMO.

I do keep looking for a golf tournament to be in HD though.... As far as I know, only the "Master's" was done in HD earlier this year, right ??

Originally posted by hall
Just my opinion, but many "indoor" type shows (Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens, Cold Case (to some extent)) don't benefit terribly from being done in HD.


Another one to check out the softness ... HD "West Wing" ... Better this year though. But -- What about the Tonight show? That's indoors ... Some of the ABC HD sitcoms(during SOME of the episodes, not all) have had some very "sharp" looking HD to them during indoor shots as well. It's sometimes varied episode by epiosde, and has been quite "soft looking" at times, but I've seen some excellent looking HD from indoors from HD "American Dreams" -- There was one particular episode I remember from the first season, in which I almost thought several times that I was "on location", so to speak ....

I think what you are seeing more than anything else is just the way they decided to "shoot" some of this stuff on the production end -- In addition to soft shots for closeups/etc, I'm just guessing, but I would also expect part of what they do in some cases, at least presently -- also might be in order to make it look "good" via SD Analog NTSC composite video.

Update: Oh BTW -- One excellent resource concerning HD PQ issues as they relate to production/post production -- and such topics as HDvideo vs. Film/etc --- can be found in AVS programming area : Search for and read posts by AVSforum member "mmost".

Originally posted by hall
I do keep looking for a golf tournament to be in HD though.... As far as I know, only the "Master's" was done in HD earlier this year, right ??

Yep, Masters Has Been HD on CBS at least the Last Two years --- Maybe even Three, but I don't recall. USA(I know, that doesn't seem right, but they had a special deal set up) had the Early round HD coverage through the week as well, and I don't recall what happened this year, but 2 years ago both WHIO-DT/WKRC-DT also ran that USA coverage through the week -- With NO commercials I might add ...

Originally posted by hall

I do keep looking for a golf tournament to be in HD though.... As far as I know, only the "Master's" was done in HD earlier this year, right ??

The Masters was the only major in HD, but CBS had quite of few (6-8 probably) other 3rd and 4th rounds in HD as well (sponsered by Argent Mortgage) however with these tour events only about 1/3 of the course was in HD. Next year hopefully it will be 100% and hopefully ABC/NBC will pick up the slack and put the other 3 majors in HD.

I can see a football game having SD cameras every once in a while, but they're only used for seconds or so at a time. With golf, when they switch to a non-HD camera, they can be on a shot for sometime.... That has to simply *look* bad switching between the two.

Then again, I can flip from channel 7 (analog, SD) to channel 707 (digital, SD) and definitely notice a difference. Hell, I prefer watching the 6 or 11 o'clock news on the DT feeds.

Hopefully not on Channel 7. HD is not kind to those anchors. Let's just say Donna Jordan is a bit rough on the eyes, even in SD analog, and it doesn't get any better from there. :rolleyes: It's better in the small markets, when they're young and fresh out of journalism school. :D

I've read where cameramen/producers will actually put a women's stocking over an HD lens to give things a softer look. Some of the "artsy" types of producers don't go for the razor sharp look. And as 1450 points out, sometimes you're better off! ;)

Originally posted by hall
I can see a football game having SD cameras every once in a while, but they're only used for seconds or so at a time. With golf, when they switch to a non-HD camera, they can be on a shot for sometime.... That has to simply *look* bad switching between the two.

Yea it's pretty bad, but at least the SD cameras are 16x9. I can see cost being an issue for golf though as there are many more cameras needed then a football production.

Originally posted by hall
I can see a football game having SD cameras every once in a while, but they're only used for seconds or so at a time. With golf, when they switch to a non-HD camera, they can be on a shot for sometime.... That has to simply *look* bad switching between the two.

Oh, I agree -- it does make SD look bad when you get those switches, even during a football game. On the other hand, for upconverted Widescreen SD, the NBC Nascar races have looked quite good -- Better than the Fox WS Nascar looked, IMO(and that wasn't something I'd call "bad" either.

Anyhow -- unless something has changed I haven't heard about -- One of the reasons you have lots of SD cams during sports events(Including Golf) is that Handheld "wireless" HD cameras aren't even into the Beta test phase yet, if they've gotten THAT far. I think I had read that CBS Had ONE they were experimenting with during Superbowl back in Feburary, I don't know if any footage from it made it to air.

There did seem to be a lot more upconverted Widescreen SD from the Golf events CBS had over the summer than I expected though -- Besides the lack of Wireless HD cams, and cost factor browerjs mentioned, another factor may have been a lack of available "On hand" HD production equipment.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
Hopefully not on Channel 7. HD is not kind to those anchors. Let's just say Donna Jordan is a bit rough on the eyes, even in SD analog, and it doesn't get any better from there. You're cruel .... but you're not lying. They need to make Sallie Taylor the full-time anchor.... :)

I've read where cameramen/producers will actually put a women's stocking over an HD lens to give things a softer look.

Isn't this what they did (or do) for shooting the soaps?

just on a side note here

i received an unpleasant surprise in the mail today saying that digipic 2000 is now going to be 69.99 because they added espn hd and a couple of crappy channels i couldn't care less about

i might go ahead and cancel my cable tv..i honestly don't think i should be paying 69.99 for what they're giving me

I got that mailer also. There was an article in the Dayton Daily News a few days ago saying TW was having a 5.7% rate hike .... "due to increased competition" with the satellite providers. Yes, that's what they said !! Not an exact quote, but by no means out of context. Just to show how "important" cable TV is to people, over the next few days, there were numerous "Speak Up" (brief, one-paragraph, phone-in letters to the editor type thing in the DDN) submissions regarding this....

They added ESPN-HD weeks ago though, but it's in the HD Tier. Are they moving it to Digipac 2000 ??

Originally posted by hall
I got that mailer also. There was an article in the Dayton Daily News a few days ago saying TW was having a 5.7% rate hike .... "due to increased competition" with the satellite providers. Yes, that's what they said !! Not an exact quote, but by no means out of context. Just to show how "important" cable TV is to people, over the next few days, there were numerous "Speak Up" (brief, one-paragraph, phone-in letters to the editor type thing in the DDN) submissions regarding this....

They added ESPN-HD weeks ago though, but it's in the HD Tier. Are they moving it to Digipac 2000 ??

Hall, I read about that too, Now thats a buisness model, competition increases so raise your rates to drive more customers to them lol


Not sure what your saying about the HD tier, I have the digi 1000 combo
and I get to pick 1 tier, for me I chose the HD I'm assuming you picked a different tier?.

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
just on a side note here

i received an unpleasant surprise in the mail today saying that digipic 2000 is now going to be 69.99 because they added espn hd and a couple of crappy channels i couldn't care less about

i might go ahead and cancel my cable tv..i honestly don't think i should be paying 69.99 for what they're giving me

Rakesh

Just checked the website digi2000 currently 59.95 + eqpt

69.99 is close to a 15% increase :(

I think TW is about to lose another customer, may be time to use my OTA tuner full time


ps I thought I heard or read about TW adding a HD movie on demand channel, anyone else see anything about that?

Mad

FYI
Did a search and this is all I could find on TW rates out of Cincinnati

Digital packages* 2004 2005 Change % change
Tier 1 $47.44 $50.00 $2.56 5.40%
Tier 2 $70.34 $73.90 $3.56 5.06%
Tier 3 $80.34 $83.85 $3.61 4.49%

* Does not include equipment rental


Source: Time Warner Cable

Originally posted by Madb
Not sure what your saying about the HD tier, I have the digi 1000 combo
and I get to pick 1 tier, for me I chose the HD I'm assuming you picked a different tier?.

ps I thought I heard or read about TW adding a HD movie on demand channel, anyone else see anything about that? With DigiPac 2000, I get to pick a tier also, but I took the "Digital Value Tier" (I think that's what it's called). I could have chosen the "HD Tier", but there are a few channels in the one I chose that we like.

The DigiPac 2000 has no "equipment" fees though (excluding DVRs). In fact, a TW employee told me they're phasing out the 1000 package. It costs $50/month + $8 equipment rental = ~$60/month. The 2000 also costs $60/month but you get to choose (2) premium movie packages, whereas the 1000 gets none (w/o add'l cost). You should at least "upgrade" and get some movie channels. Showtime and HBO do have HD channels available. The Movie Channel, Cinemax, and Starz *offer* HD, but TW-WOH doesn't carry them.

Rakesh's post implies that ESPN-HD is going to be part of the 2000 package... "digipic 2000 is now going to be 69.99 because they added espn hd". I think what's more accurate is, because 2000 customers have the *option* of choosing the HD Tier, which includes ESPN-HD, *ALL* 2000 customers are paying the cost for it whether they get ESPN-HD or not.

A few days back someone did mention that if you look in the DIAG screens on your set-top, you can see something about an "HD on demand" channel. I'll bet they mean an HD "iControl" channel, i.e. Pay-Per-View, not an On Demand channel.

This sucks, after lowering the price earlier in the year to 59.99 (I don't remember what it was before, but i remember it did go down). Oh well I guess it was expected considering the Disney negotiations (although i never heard exactly how much TWC and Disney decided on). I really wouldn't be too suprised if they move ESPN-HD to the standard package (considering that's where it should be, as every single TWC customer is paying for it).

Originally posted by hall
With DigiPac 2000, I get to pick a tier also, but I took the "Digital Value Tier" (I think that's what it's called). I could have chosen the "HD Tier", but there are a few channels in the one I chose that we like.

The DigiPac 2000 has no "equipment" fees though (excluding DVRs). In fact, a TW employee told me they're phasing out the 1000 package. It costs $50/month + $8 equipment rental = ~$60/month. The 2000 also costs $60/month but you get to choose (2) premium movie packages, whereas the 1000 gets none (w/o add'l cost). You should at least "upgrade" and get some movie channels. Showtime and HBO do have HD channels available. The Movie Channel, Cinemax, and Starz *offer* HD, but TW-WOH doesn't carry them.

Rakesh's post implies that ESPN-HD is going to be part of the 2000 package... "digipic 2000 is now going to be 69.99 because they added espn hd". I think what's more accurate is, because 2000 customers have the *option* of choosing the HD Tier, which includes ESPN-HD, *ALL* 2000 customers are paying the cost for it whether they get ESPN-HD or not.

A few days back someone did mention that if you look in the DIAG screens on your set-top, you can see something about an "HD on demand" channel. I'll bet they mean an HD "iControl" channel, i.e. Pay-Per-View, not an On Demand channel.

sorry for the miscommunication. i was merely stating my own opinion of why they raised the price.

on the left side, they basically said "these new channels are available to you on Time Warner Cable" and espn-hd was one of them. So I figured that they're increasing the prices for everyone just because they recently added ESPN HD..if that is the case, then why on earth did it take them 1.5 years to negotiate it out?? if they're going to increase the package by 10 bucks because ESPN wants more subscriber fees, then obviously TW holding out was of no use..really stupid if you ask me

I don't know if they're moving it to the digipic2000 pack by default but I'm going to call today and likely cancel.. If i had received this thing before i signed up for nba league pass i would've dropped them right there and gone for satellite..

i'm pretty sure that it said digipic 2000 - 69.99 though..their website is horrendously slow in updating their newest information so i wouldn't rely on that

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
i'm pretty sure that it said digipic 2000 - 69.99 though..their website is horrendously slow in updating their newest information so i wouldn't rely on that It is definitely going to $69.99/month. That's the first thing I read....

Their website is 95% useless. It appears that they don't even control the channel lineup lists. They let some "FYI" company do it.

All you dx'ers, the Columbus digitals are really blowing in here strong tonight. Tropo must be pretty good from the east.

Just checked the tropo forecast and it doesn't look like anything, but I've never seen them this strong.

Thanks Hall

I was uninformed, I got the flyer in the mail from TW when I got home last night showing that as a current digi 2000 user my new price would be 69.95. a 17% increase

I wasnt aware I had the 2000 package when I called sales to ad the HD tier I thought it was being added to the 1000 pgk.

This new pricing is unacceptable, as someone who catches grief from the wife about the cost of the cable/RR bill everytime she sees it.

The way TW has things structure I think my only option to cut cost will be to drop them totally. I really only watch some cable news and the history channel, the kid watches Disney. I like the HD teir for showing off HD, but
I rarely watch most of whats on there and ESPN has what? 1 game a week in HD The HD tier isnt worth the added cost for me.

Guess I will wait to get the flyer with the total cost breakdowns listed and then decide. But it looks Like TW has price structured themself out of of my house.

Thankfully I have My OTA tuner


Mad

Madb,

If you decide to dump your cable but keep internet access, you might want to check into Earthlink from TW instead of RR. It ends up being about 8 bucks less a month than RR.

Paul

Paul

Thanks I'll check that out, I figured RR cost would go up a bit since they
discount it If you have cable too.


Mad

Yeah, unless they had an "a la carte" offering, it really makes it difficult to get some of the channels you want without having to move up to the next higher tier. I mean, you get Discovery in the "standard" (analog) package. If you want Discovery Times or Discovery Health, you have to add the "Digital Value Tier".

I do know that you can get the "basic" (the roughly $10/month package) and the HD Tier by itself. You would get channels 2-25 or so. Because you have an HD set-top, you would get the 700-channels (WHIO-DT, WKEF-DT, etc), Discovery HD, and TNT-HD. The HD Tier itself will get you HDNet, InHD, etc. Cost would be around $25/month.

Sadly, satellite won't help much either... Sure enough, the channel you want will be in the next higher tier with them too.

The hit for digital customers looks pretty bad. I only have the analog channels and that's going up $3.00. (I can get the non-HD-tier HD channels using my Fusion PC tuner).

I'm peeved by these constant rate hikes though. I could get many more channels on satellite for the same amount of money. I'm seriously thinking of dumping my cable once I move (possibly buying a house next year.)

Speaking of the house thing, anyone know any good antenna people around the Dayton area. I'm going to need a mast put up.... ;)

If you decide to dump your cable but keep internet access, you might want to check into Earthlink from TW instead of RR. It ends up being about 8 bucks less a month than RR.
There's also "WCoil Express" which is a hair cheaper than Earthlink.

It looks like they're raising the price of Earthlink internet, too. I'm currently paying $41.95/mo. The website says $44.95, so it's no longer an $8 savings over RR ala carte.

It's always said $44.95 for Earthlink. If you call TW and order Earthlink Cable (not sure who would do it this way), that's what you pay. If you call Earthlink and order, it costs $41.95.

Earthlink Cable page: https://store.earthlink.net/cgi-bin/wsisa.dll/store/product.html?product=cable

Also, if you order through Time Warner, you wouldn't get any promotion that Earthlink was running. You'd pay $41.95/month from the start vs getting a 3-months @ $19.95 or free installation or whatever. Then again, from what browerjs says below, TW won't even take your order...

I have earthlink, when you order it through TWC they transfer you to earthlink and you place your order with them

To clarify what I posted earlier, yes the HD Movies On Demand is pay-per view. Also, WBDT HD will be available on channel 726. You can see that it is there in diagnostics mode.

What channel is HD MOD? I didn't see it in the diag mode the other day.

MOD, i.e. Pay-per-View, channels don't have channel "numbers" anymore, do they ?? You access them all from channel "1", I thought. Things like "Favorites-on-Demand", like Showtime, HBO, Food Network, etc, do have specific channel numbers though.

Channel 1001.

Also, WBDT HD will be available on channel 726. You can see that it is there in diagnostics mode.

Found it! QAM channel 109.5 for us PC card folks.

How do you get into diagnostics mode?

Hold down the INFO and EXIT buttons on the front-panel. The display will say "DIAG" after a few seconds. Release the buttons and then press EXIT one more time. It will change to channel 611...

You can't tune to 611 normally. It will put up "???" and stay on the current channel. You can go back to channel 611 until you reboot the box (I think .... I've went back after getting out of the DIAG menu too soon before).

To reboot the DVR "properly", press and hold VOL-, VOL+, and INFO. The display will get garbled, display "boot" and "hal2".

Oh, the DIAG menu isn't very interesting. It's 99% *read-only* information.

Originally posted by alex.sennet
hey thanks in diag mode the hdtv wb is there! Okay, I haven't tried to find this but from looking through the DIAG menu before, I don't know where I would have found this. Where is it ?? Does TW have plans to add NBC in hdtv? That's the problem when threads get sooooo huge like these here. They go on and on forever and I don't blame people for not reading all what, 90 pages now ?? Anyway, it's been discussed before and no one really knows (or can't say). All we know is that TW (corporate) and WDTN's parent company are "in negotiations".

Originally posted by hall
Okay, I haven't tried to find this but from looking through the DIAG menu before, I don't know where I would have found this. Where is it ??.

It's on 726, didn't show up on the guide though.

I was guessing it would be 726 also.... I meant in the DIAG menu, you guys are "seeing" something related to it listed obviously. Where at ??

I did think I might find it one other way: If you go into Settings, then "A", choose "Power On Channel". You can scroll through channels and a channel 500 shows up there (a TWC employee channel). It doesn't show up in the guide. I thought maybe I'd see 726 listed there, but it's not.

By the way, I don't have a channel 1001 either. I can't tune to it as it only accepts a 3-digit input. Is this listed in that same DIAG menu ??

Originally posted by hall
That's the problem when threads get sooooo huge like these here. They go on and on forever and I don't blame people for not reading all what, 90 pages now ??

That is what the "search this thread" function is for. It works.

One thing we have done on Cincy thread that is nice however, is that when we started the current thread, we put local station info on the first few posts of the thread for easy reference.

Originally posted by hall
I was guessing it would be 726 also.... I meant in the DIAG menu, you guys are "seeing" something related to it listed obviously. Where at ??

I did think I might find it one other way: If you go into Settings, then "A", choose "Power On Channel". You can scroll through channels and a channel 500 shows up there (a TWC employee channel). It doesn't show up in the guide. I thought maybe I'd see 726 listed there, but it's not.

By the way, I don't have a channel 1001 either. I can't tune to it as it only accepts a 3-digit input. Is this listed in that same DIAG menu ??

There is nothing in the diagnostic menu that relates to 726, you just have to be in that mode to be able to tune to 726.

Ahhh, now I understand. I assume you don't get "???" on the display when you do this....

When you guys said it would show up in DIAG menu, I figured you meant the channel "number" would be visible. I didn't realize the channel is actually *live* !!

Yeah it's live! Pretty sweet, but I haven't caught a WB HD show yet.

There's (2) movies available on 1001, the HD-OnDemand channel. They're both "free" too, but I imagine that's because they're billing system doesn't know the channel exists yet.

anyone else on TWC experiencing problems with WRGTHD tonight? My pic is all distorted and keeps breaking up. Its only on 745 though.

Originally posted by alex.sennet
hey thanks in diag mode the hdtv wb is there!

Does TW have plans to add NBC in hdtv?

While playing around in DIAG mode I stumbled onto the following; 702 WDTN-HD (no picture though), 800 Passtime Games, 501 Some kind of VOD subscription service, 700 USAGHD (no picture).

anyone else on TWC experiencing problems with WRGTHD tonight? My pic is all distorted and keeps breaking up. Its only on 745 though.

I'm getting no picture on QAM channel 93.1 (where WRGT should be) on my Fusion card.

While playing around in DIAG mode I stumbled onto the following; 702 WDTN-HD (no picture though),

When I first got my Fusion card, WDTN HD was there on QAM channel 91.1 and WHIO was on 91.2. WDTN obviously wasn't supposed to be there, and went away a few weeks later. ;)

is the diagnostic mode you guys are talking about only for the SA8000 HDDVR, or is for all the TWC HD boxes? My first HDDVR totally crapped out, and wouldn't even turn on. I went to the office for an exchange, but of corse the didn't have any. So I'm playing the waiting game untill they call me. So does this diagnostic mode trick work for the regular HD box, because I couldn't get it to. Maybe I was doing something wrong though.

Edit: I've noticed that on my set when I run my cable wire directly into my Antenna C input(for DTV inputs) I am able to pick up the same QAM channels that 1450khz is reporting. I thought that was strange, but I guess thats how my tv is set up. No real benefit from doing so except I was able to get the "HD TIER" without the box.

Originally posted by CGuy
While playing around in DIAG mode I stumbled onto the following; 702 WDTN-HD (no picture though) I'm not surprised about that... Just like the WB channel, they have it ready to go when needed. Safe to say that the WB deal appears "closer" than the WDTN one, eh ?? :)

cable ch 745 is SD again for the cowboys game..what the hell is going on? this is the same thing that happned a couple weeks ago

Here's an idea.... At 12:57, call the TV station and complain that the 1:00 game is supposed to be in HD but it's not. That might get them to at least "check" on it and then make sure they "flip the switch" on time.

Dumb question, but what would happen if they flipped it early ?? The preceding show might not be in HD, but will it upconvert it or what ??

OTA signal is fine for WRGT.

yeah i'm watching OTA

I am enraged by TWC lack of channels and increasing cost. As if our selection of HD channels was not bad enough, they don't show today's football game on Fox in HD. This is flippin' ridiculous! I wonder if we all cancel our TWC subscription if it would even make a difference to them. That is what really bites the most, that no matter what we do, TWC will keep on screwing us. Sorry, just had to vent. Thanks. Thoughts???

And what other channels do you want? Please keep in mind that the FOX HD decision probably had zilch to do with Time Warner. Also keep in mind that Time Warner can't just add every channel you want like it's magic. It takes months of negotiations nation wide. While Western Ohio is a HUGE division, that really doesn't mean a whole lot. Also, adding every channel they can could be counter productive in the sense that they have to continue marketing new exciting services and channels to keep their business expanding.

... I want the channels that TWC says are available for their outrageous fees to come in ALL the time and be in HD when they are supposed to be in HD. If they advertise that Fox will be in HD on channel 745 and the game (in this instance) is shown in HD, then I expect to be able to tune it in. For what I, and most of the rest of us, pay per month - this is the LEAST I can expect.

As for other channels, I really don't expect more, an NBC channel would be nice, but I understand that may be coming soon...

As an aside, I have been on hold with TWC for 30+ minutes now to see what they are going to do for me since Fox is not broadcasting on TWC in HD today as TWC says they will be. If THIS is the reason why I buy TWC cyhannels, I expect this. I expect to be able to watch the football game in HD just as others expect to be able to watch their shows in HD at other times. TWC needs to solve this contract dispute (or whatever it is) with Fox ASAFP.

... I love how TWC always thinks it is SOMEONE else's fault. The CSR I just spoke with explained to me that it is FOX's fault. This is depite the fact that Fox is broadcasting in HD OTA. She couldn't explain why that was and continued to tell me that it was Fox's problem. **sigh** I hate "the man"

Someday, when Wal-Mart has put all other stores out of business, you think they'll still be the place with the lowest prices ?? :) If DP&L wants to raise their electric rates, what are you going to do ??

TW said the reason for their latest price hike -- as if they need a reason ... it's a yearly guarantee -- is because of competition !!!! Wait, remember when Kroger was selling 1-gallon of milk for $1.59 ?? What did Meijer do, raise their price ?? Nope, they lowered theirs.... I'd really like to know what college/university that TW's accountants went to.

Go ahead and cancel TW.... Us TW customers will just get a mid-year price hike because of it. :)

Speaking of the football game this afternoon, I thought TW rec'd the signal OTA and passed it as-is. *Can* they downconvert it to SD ?? Rakesh said it didn't start in HD, but I figured they (WRGT) would fix it... Then he and 1450khz say it's HD OTA and I'm confused.

I too am tired of the constant rate hikes on TWC, and I don't even subscribe to a digital package (just get the "in-the-clear" HD locals with my analog cable). Odds are probably 85% or better I'll dump cable for a dish once I get into a house, but the logistics of a dish hookup at my apartment are too much of a pain to make it worthwhile.

I get more locals using an antenna anyway.

I guess the other option is to move to Lebanon where the city-owned cable is cheaper.

Originally posted by prophetvsprofit
And what other channels do you want? Please keep in mind that the FOX HD decision probably had zilch to do with Time Warner. Also keep in mind that Time Warner can't just add every channel you want like it's magic. It takes months of negotiations nation wide. While Western Ohio is a HUGE division, that really doesn't mean a whole lot. Also, adding every channel they can could be counter productive in the sense that they have to continue marketing new exciting services and channels to keep their business expanding.

bravo hd, encore hd, cinemax hd, tmc hd, starz hd, nbc hd and an analog affiliate that broadcasts the cleveland cavs games..i am blacked out of cavaliers games and the channel that carries the games isn't even on cable

oh wait, but they can't carry them like magic..then why increase the rates if you're not improving service?

regarding the fox hd situation, the same thing happened a couple weeks ago and wasn't it TWC that said "we're working on it and hope to have it fixed by monday" or something like that....does such a big company make the same mistake twice?

the other thing that annoys me is that this rate hike has come just after espn-hd has been added. leads me to believe that they caved in to espn and are forcing higher fees on the subs....wasn't this why they were holding out this long?? makes no sense to me whatsoever

I just got off the phone after a 15 minute conversation trying to downgrade my package and keep my dvr..total BS..they basically force you into the 70 dollar package if you want the DVR

if i want the HD-tier, basic cable(2-78) and a dvr they said it would drop my price by 2 dollars a month

i would've never signed up with these guys, especially my league pass committment had i know about this..come april TWC is gone for sure

I've been a TWC subscriber for only a few weeks, and I am already considering canceling my service. I've had THREE boxes, One was the HDDVR, and the other two just normal HD boxes, and they've all totally crapped out on me. Not only that, but about every other day I lose all my HD channels and have to reboot my box for them to work again. I was totally happy with my DirecTV, and made the switch solely for the HDDVR, which I now do not have. I have a feeling that I could be waiting awhile for one too. The last tech that was here, and there have been over 5 here in the past 2 weeks, told me that he has taken no less than 50 of the HDDVRs out of people's homes that were totally broken beyond repair. I agree with everyone's sentiments. I pay good money for a service, and when I'm riddled with ridiculous reception problems, Piss poor CSRs, and hardware that is total junk, I feel like I'm getting the shaft. I seriously doubt that I'll have TWC much longer.

Originally posted by prophetvsprofit
...they have to continue marketing new exciting services and channels to keep their business expanding. I know you've said in the past that you have "a friend" who works for TW and that you don't. But sorry, making a statement like that makes me believe you're definitely an employee ! Sounds like you're in marketing, at that.

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
I just got off the phone after a 15 minute conversation trying to downgrade my package and keep my dvr..total BS..they basically force you into the 70 dollar package if you want the DVR

if i want the HD-tier, basic cable(2-78) and a dvr they said it would drop my price by 2 dollars a month I know people have better things to do with their time, but I got lucky with a CSR I called one time. I asked about "local HD only" and she checked on it.... After a few minutes she told me I could get this setup:

* basic cable (ch 2-25 or so, sometimes called "lifeline" ... actually, it's "limited" and listed here: http://www.timewarnercable.com/westernohio/products/cable/alacartepricing/daytondigital1.html ... $8.22 for you in Fairborn)
* HD set-top ($7.95 ... it's only "free" or built-in with digital packages)

That will probably add up to ~$20/month with taxes, fees, etc. You can add the "HD Tier", a la carte, for another $8.95/month (not listed on page above, but it is in the last bill we rec'd).

I'll try and confirm this with some contacts I have there.

Supply and Demand people, the majority of the people aren't going to drop TWC because of the rate increase it only takes 1 person to drop in 9 (with no new sign ups) to make it unprofitable for TWC. As for onulaw76 bitching and moaning about TWC not having things in HD when they are supposed to, that's almost 100% of the time affiliate related, as it was yesterday with WRGT. The pregame show wasn't in HD at 12:15 when i turned it on, so i called WRGT to tell them to pass the message to the control room. Within in seconds it was. The thing that happened with TWC and WRGT was the exact same thing that happened during the first world series game, it was WRGT related, from my speaking with both WRGT and TWC. Once cable has the proper interface to the affiliates i doubt there is much they can do, they get what signal is delivered to them.

Originally posted by browerjs
The thing that happened with TWC and WRGT was the exact same thing that happened during the first world series game, it was WRGT related, from my speaking with both WRGT and TWC.

Usually(allways really), it is true that if you're not seeing HD on BOTH OTA or Cable at any given time, it is a issue at the station. However, I'm not convinced that's the case here, when it has occured that OTA has had HD, and cable has SD at any given point in time.

So, I would be interested to hear the actual, technical reason how/why it was a "WRGT related" issue if WRGT-DT had HD on OTA 30-1(and of course, it's allways 720p from 30-1, even if it's 4x3 programming upconverted to 720p) at any given time, and TW was sending 480i 4x3, which of course WRGT-DT also sends OTA on their multicast SD subchannel 30-2.

I don't know how cable is getting the feed from WRGT, but, There are generally two ways that are used to feed cableco's the signal(s) from the digital station. Either:

#1). Via fiber, which generally comes via output right out of the station's HD encoder(OTA gets the output from the HD encoder via OTA on 30-1) -- or, from their SD encoder if the cableco is carrying the 4x3 480i SD, which we see OTA on 30-2. If TW is fed via fiber, Unless there is something going really wrong somewhere, it doesn't really make any sense that WRGT should be sending TW output from HD encoder(used for 30-1) at some times, and output form the SD encoder(used for 30-2) at other times, unless that is what the agreement between WRGT/Sinclair+ TW involves for cable retransmission consent rights. In fact, I would guess TW probably has access to BOTH the signal from HD encoder(30-1 OTA), and the SD encoder(30-2), as well as of course, the analog signal from 45 OTA.

Now, I suppose its possible that given the way the Fox HD splicer system works something odd might be going on here, or, depending upon how WRGT has things set up, but, even so, one wouldn't think their HD encoder would be spitting out a 480i 4x3 to the cableco fiber link.


#2). Via a OTA receiver at the cable headend. That receiver would of course likely be able to receive either 30-1 or 30-2, but you would think it would permanantly be set on 30-1.


Keep in mind, The HD/Fox upconverted programing from the Fox splicer actually passes through the HD encoder, but, it doesn't actually "need" the encoder", as it's already encoded as a ATSC compliant bitstream, ready for our receivers/Cable STB's to decode. But, the local/syndicated programming is upconverted to 720p first and then DOES need the HD encoder.

From reading info from Engineers at the Fox affiliates and other personel at Fox, The way I understand MOST Fox stations have it set up, and how Fox recommends it is for the output from the HD splicer for the digital station should be set up to Chase analog master control. Therefore, whenever the station switches to "net" programming for the analog station the digital(in this case 30-1 720p subchannel, not 30-2) station switches to the HD(or SD upconverted to 720p) from the splicer. When the station switches to "local" for local/Syndicated programming, the digital 30-1 switches to local programming which must go through the upconversion proces before HD encoder, this way, Switching for the digital station is easily automated along with the analog station.

Now, since we know there have been times when WRGT-DT has Had Fox programming in SD(upconverted to 720p at the station of course) on 30-1 OTA that is NOT from the splicer, obviously, they either :

#1). have a way to switch, for 30-1 digital to the same SD from Fox that feeds the analog station(with the crease across screen and all near Fox bug) instead of via the splicer, and that's what's happening when we get SD instead of HD. Note: I had heard from a Fox engineer it is necessary for them at times to do some special "switching" between HD/SD feeds in order for the splicer to get "synced up" with the local stream, but you wouldn't think it would involve long periods of time)

OR:

#2). The splicer is sometimes not working properly/Not getting the right commands from Fox/etc, and instead, we get the SD that's feeding 30-2/analog station being fed into the upconverter/HD encoder for 30-1 instead of HD/upconverts via the splicer.

I expect both have happened, and its just a guess, but I expect #1 has happened moreso than #2. Neither explains why OTA would get 720p HD(or upconverts) and Cable gets 480i SD 4x3 on 745 at times ...

* basic cable (ch 2-25 or so, sometimes called "lifeline" ... actually, it's "limited" and listed here: http://www.timewarnercable.com/west...ondigital1.html ... $8.22 for you in Fairborn)
* HD set-top ($7.95 ... it's only "free" or built-in with digital packages)

Or use a PC based QAM tuner and not have to pay the STB fee. :) Can't get any HD Tier channels that way though, just the locals + Discovery + TNTHD.

I expect both have happened, and its just a guess, but I expect #1 has happened moreso than #2. Neither explains why OTA would get 720p HD(or upconverts) and Cable gets 480i SD 4x3 on 745 at times ...

I think when this happened the last time, something went wrong at TWC and they simulcast the analog signal from WRGT on 745. I saw the "crease" on it this time too. Didn't check later though, since I watched my football via OTA.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
I think when this happened the last time, something went wrong at TWC and they simulcast the analog signal from WRGT on 745. I saw the "crease" on it this time too.

I'd guess it was the 30-2 SD digital subchannel they were sending, as you wouldn't think they would be able to switch to sending through a analog NTSC signal+converting it to QAM/etc on 745 within any reasonable amout of time, but who knows.

Of course, unless you were seeing ghosting/other analog NTSC artifacts(extra "noise"/etc) that would indicate analog OTA link, it could have been either the analog, or the 30-2 4x3 from the digital station. The crease and your standard NTSC composite video artifacts are there on both analog 45+ Digital 30-2 SD subchannel (but only during Fox programming), so it's obviously the same video that gets sent through the both the analog, and 30-2 SD subchannel from the digital station. In fact, The crease has also been on 30-1(again only Fox programming) at the times when they're using(for whatever reason) the same thing that feeds the analog during Fox programming instead of HD/upconverts from the splicer. I would note that during Fox programming, when I've checked/noticed at least WXIX-DT Cincinnati has ALLWAYS had the video through the splicer since they started using it ~9/12. BTW, It's been a long time since I've seen it, but In times past(when 480i SD was all WRGT-DT was sending), I have even seen Herringbone at times(usually during "Good day live") on what is now 30-2 AND analog 45.

Besides the 480i coming through 745, What seems especially odd to me though, is that it has seemed to be the case that, during the World Series game at first, and yesterday if first part of pre-game wasn't widescreen(it was when I looked at about 12:45, evidently because browerjs called them) OTA on 30--1, in both cases there was FIRST a problem with getting the "feed"/HD from the splicer passed through OTA on 30-1, which was "fixed", but later on, OTA had HD, but cable still had SD(480i 4x3 at that) ....

I suppose it's possible(although I can't figure out how) it's something on WRGT end, but for the most part it just doesn't make any sense to me that we get 720p format at all times from 30-1 OTA, (including upconverted 4x3 material with black bars on the sides to fill out the 16x9 720p format they are sending at ALL TIMES on 30-1), and Cable is getting 720p at some times and 480i 4x3 at others, UNLESS TW is switching between using 720p from 30-1, and 480i from 30-2(or NTSC analog) for some odd reason, which although odd, seems to me to be the most likely explanation.

Originally posted by hall
I know people have better things to do with their time, but I got lucky with a CSR I called one time. I asked about "local HD only" and she checked on it.... After a few minutes she told me I could get this setup:

* basic cable (ch 2-25 or so, sometimes called "lifeline" ... actually, it's "limited" and listed here: http://www.timewarnercable.com/westernohio/products/cable/alacartepricing/daytondigital1.html ... $8.22 for you in Fairborn)
* HD set-top ($7.95 ... it's only "free" or built-in with digital packages)

That will probably add up to ~$20/month with taxes, fees, etc. You can add the "HD Tier", a la carte, for another $8.95/month (not listed on page above, but it is in the last bill we rec'd).

I'll try and confirm this with some contacts I have there.

this is exactly what i want..i am talking to someone here and they said that when they do limited+dvr+hd tier the says that it won't let them through because the HD tier is only available to digital subscribers(or you need at least the classic package)..and also with 2-25 only, i won't get TNT-HD or Discovery-HD..

also if someone wants just locals in HD, then she is saying that they HAVE to sign up for a digital package to get it.

ok and apparently for limited service and a dvr, it works out to 38 bucks..i really need an alternative because 70 bucks is just not worth it to me, but i don't have another source for a recorder :(

Call again.... Then again, maybe they eliminated the option. Don't mention that you want any HD channels though, just that you want the HD-DVR or leave it at HD only for now with no DVR. If you have an HD set-top with TW, you'll get the channels in the 700 range, re-read what 1450khz has said. Those channels are "in the clear" or not encrypted. You will obviously not get the half-dozen in the HD Tier (HDNet, InHD, etc).

Like I said above, it took (3) calls to get a CSR who could "find" it. Maybe have them check with their supervisor ??

called again, no dice..must have at least the digital package to get the HD Tier..

limited with dvr is $35 and if i downgrade to that, then my roadrunner goes up to 49.99

Stop mentioning HD channels or the HD Tier to them !!!!!

Originally posted by hall
Stop mentioning HD channels or the HD Tier to them !!!!!

all i want is the recorder and the hd-tier, tnt, discovery and locals in HD

limited service with DVR is 35 bucks, can get this anytime

you want the HD-tier(which is scrambled and not in the clear), you have to sign up for the digital package at the minimum

the bottom line is that you have to pay 35 bucks for a dvr and limited service, HD or no HD

yes, i understand that i'll get TNT and Discovery if i sign up for limited+dvr regardless of what they tell me.....I'd like the HD-tier because i watch ESPN a lot and nba games are on InHD

at this point getting locals in hd and the recorder is not an issue, it is available for 35 bucks, but i want ESPN.

now what exactly does not mentioning hd or hd channels do for me or what could it do for me? i must not be following what you're telling me

As soon as you tell them "HD Tier", you "forced" to go digital. Up until your last post I didn't realize you *wanted* the HD Tier. I recall you were kinda pissed about ESPN-HD a few days ago (attributing the price increase partly to them).

I'd like to know how "limited", which costs less than $10, plus a DVR, which costs $7.95 or 8.95, adds up to $35.

Do you want ESPN-HD an InHD or not ?? :D

yes i want ESPN-HD :P...I was stating that the price increase may indirectly be because of them adding ESPN. ESPN is notorious for increasing their per sub fee. I think TWC is enforcing that on us with this 10 dollar rate hike.

Limited = 12.50
DVR = 9.95
HD Box fee = 7.95
Navigator = $3

add in taxes and you're at 35 bucks

when you pay the DVR fee, i think it is just a recording fee, not for the equipment itself

If you want all that pay the 70 bucks like the rest of the area. You can't have everything you want for the price you name. Like I said earlier, "Supply and Demand"

Originally posted by browerjs
If you want all that pay the 70 bucks like the rest of the area. You can't have everything you want for the price you name. Like I said earlier, "Supply and Demand"

thanks for the insight..i would've never known

i don't know what me trying to build a package that i want has to do with "supply and demand"....i'm glad that you are an economics or business major or whatever and felt the need to share your knowledge

i think there's a reason that a la carte exists and i was trying to see what i could do with that.

What price did i name??

I don't want to get into flaming, i'm just saying that the reason that the price went up is simple supply and demand, and the bitching about it for the last two pages of the thread is annoying.

I'm not saying you specifically named a price, just that you can't get what you want for the price you are willing to pay, and that's what i was trying to say.

The reason I believe a la carte exists is to add on services above your normal package, because it's obvious if you want any services or extras you need to be in some package to make any financial sense.

don't want to get into flaming? well you could've knocked me over with a feather.. based on the tone of your posts i'd think otherwise

read hall's post about having limited+box+hd tier for less than the digipic package prices

i was trying to get that but it looks like they recently made the HD Tier available only if you had a digital package

"a la carte" exists because you *can*, in some cases, order things by themselves. Look at their pricing pages.... The monthly DVR fee is $9.95/month. If you get (2) or more premium movie packages it's instead $4.95/month. Which items require some other item is where TW is NOT very clear.

Originally posted by CGuy
While playing around in DIAG mode I stumbled onto the following; 702 WDTN-HD (no picture though), 800 Passtime Games, 501 Some kind of VOD subscription service, 700 USAGHD (no picture). You must be bored... :D It's not like you can "Chan Up" or down through these. You have to manually enter each channel number !!

I don't think things are as simple as supply and demand in the business of cable service. Cable is still a monopoly for many (those that live in apartments, condos, or have restrictions on the use of their porpoerty and cannot use sat.) or a near monopoly. TWC has wide latitude in how it sets its price -- a price that is set to maximize profits. This calculation certainly takes into account demand, but TWC manipulates the market in a number of ways.

For one, TWC prevents purchasers from selecting individual channels that they want to purchase. I'd love to just have HD stations, plus ESPN-2, the FSNs, and CSTV (until ESPN2HD comes out in January and FSN-HD is picked up). Nope, you have to get 80 other channels of nonsense just to get these, plus pay extra. TWC can get away with this because people like me will pay for it, and this setup is the most profitable for them. Simply put, people with HDTVs have the money to pay for better service. TWC knows this, and it sets the price accordingly.

If TWC had its way, there would be no "limited" service. Thanks to state and local regulation, they are forced to provide it. I wouldn't be suprised to see TWC pull the local HD stations from the "limited" service in the near future.

I wouldn't count on Congress or state government to fix TWC's market inefficiencies. A nice anti-trust suit would do wonders to straighten TWC out. Any lawyers out there want to take TWC on?

I won't disagree that TW is a monopoly, but how many utilities aren't ?? You don't see companies out there building power plants and stringing power lines down every street in the Miami Valley planning to compete with DP&L. If anything, they would cheap out and use DP&L's existing lines... Same with natural gas, though "supposedly" we do have options today.

The city of Dayton had a franchise agreement with another cable provider .... Totalink .... but they just recently backed out. Main reason: They didn't have the money. It would take a HUGE amount of money and no guarantee of a ROI. Here's the DDN article about this: http://www.google.com/search?as_q=cable+television&num=10&hl=en&c2coff=1&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=lang_en&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=daytondailynews.com&safe=off (1st link, use the "Cached" page)

Originally posted by dc10forlife
If TWC had its way, there would be no "limited" service. Call 'em... You'd think they really didn't have that package. Act like a new customer and tell them you just want "basic cable" and I bet they'll sign you up for "Classic", the $45-50 one. You have to use the secret phrase "no, your basic, basic package" to get the ~$10 one. :D

The only reason why cable can be thought of as a "monopoly" is Only because so many folks CHOOSE(whether or not they know they usually have a choice) to use cable as their service provider for TV programming. For the most part, there is nothing forcing people to do this, as would be the case(for anyone who wanted a phone anyway) with a real monopoly such as Bell Telephone in many areas back in the "old days".

There are other options to receive TV programming(oftentimes the programming you want) in almost all cases, and its just unfortunate that these options aren't currently used as much as they COULD be, or in some cases such as with large MDU's, implemented in such a way which would make the cable company think twice about raising rates with the knowledge that *most* of their current subscribers will go along with it because the *think*(or just aren't thinking at all) they do not have another choice.

Here are some of the options. OTA with your own antenna. Satellite. OTA+Satellite. Many hospitals, businesses, and in some cases aparment builings use MATV systems, (many people who live in apartments who *think* they have cable, but instead Have MATV) or MATV+satellite. MATV(master antenna) systems involve antennas on the roofs of MDU's(multi-dwelling units) for the locals and, usually special hardware for distrubtion among the building's units. Unfortunetly, the cabling for many MATV systems in the past ended up becoming wiring for the cableco, and also, unfortuntely, MATV systems are often "frequency specific" and are set up for the analog stations in the area, and have yet to be upgraded for digital reception yet in most cases.

Originally posted by dc10forlife
those that live in apartments, condos, or have restrictions on the use of their porpoerty and cannot use sat.)


There can be restrictions prohibiting antennas involving registered national historic sites and on military bases, otherwise restrictions that prohibit Satellite+OTA antennas that involve property a homeowner(or renter) owns or controls(including baloconies of apartments) are illegal, null and void under federal law. The general rule allows for antennas(sat or ota) up to 12Feet above roofline. They do have some possible leeway on placement/mounting, as long as where they want you to place the antenna doesn't impair reception. You can find the rules here:

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html


Originally posted by dc10forlife
I wouldn't be suprised to see TWC pull the local HD stations from the "limited" service in the near future.


I would. It is doubtful they would be allowed to do that, according to various "rules"(FCC rules, not local/state rules) I have seen, the broadcast services must be offered unencrypted(practically speaking, it would have to be via QAM or 8VSB/16VSB, the latter "VSB's" which are rarely used by cableco's AFAIK). That's why the way 1450khz utilizes his cable subscription, with his *own* receiving equipment works for him. Although it's been a while since I've "studied" that stuff, I don't recall all the details. It's basically "set up" that way so you can use your own equipment -- such as with current "cable ready sets" so you don't need a extra box, and current+future "digital cable Plug+play ready sets" with the cablecard/etc. Unless perhaps it is allowed as specificed in cable carriage agreement between the station+the cableco, but I doubt you'll find that for Free-to-air services, including HD, offered by broadcasters. But, then again, who knows what sort of "deals" between the cableco+broadcasters may occur in the near future, given the "impasse" that has occured in some(many in some areas) cases where cable carriage of local stations (H)DTV services, and retransmission consent agreements are involved.

Now, what wouldn't surprise me at all would be if TW+Sinclair are not able to come to an agreement for Cable Carriage of HD from WRGT-DT+WKEF-DT when their current agreement expires. Frankly given the TW/Sinclair situation just about everywhere else I know of, I'm very surprised they ever came to an agreement(before analog shut off anyway) in the first place.

Originally posted by dc10forlife
For one, TWC prevents purchasers from selecting individual channels that they want to purchase.


If you search the programming area, you'll find much information and debate on this. What I think is, Maintaining the infrustructure of a cable system(especially a large one such as TW Dayton/TW WOH) throughout the service area, as well as finding ways to offer new services/etc., and paying for the programming from the cablenets is all very expensive for them(but yeah, they're rolling in the money presently), and I think you would find al a carte channel choices would HAVE to be fairly expensive per channel for them to be able to break even on that sort of thing.

The best Hi Def shows I get for free with a simple antenna in my attic. I watch free HD TV every night. For movies, I get HBO HD through Direct TV. I'm not saying D* doesn't have problems either, but it works with my HD Tivo, as does OTA. I fired Time Warner 10 years ago.

I had a long post written up yesterday about supply and demand
monopoly ect, but decided in the end to just delete it.
I will say I concerning TW I'm on the same page as Rakesh and Dc10forlife

I agree with Jeffs post too. These company’s are semi monopolies in that
If you want some of the channels only they offer, there's not much competition out there. For me their offerings are a luxury vs. a necessity and cost vs. value and the cost is at the point where I can live without it. Looking at the current pricing for Ala carte, packages I see no way to get what I want for a reasonable price. Hence little value for me. I will wait to see the latest pricing due out soon before making a decision.


Maybe this is whats helping driving price increases too.
although I'm sure for them this is a drop in the bucket


Time Warner near deal on AOL accounting (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6565463/)


Mad

p.s

Happy Thanksgiving tommorrow everybody!
wish you all the best.

Looks like 2 NFL games, 1 college game in HD
and "Dr. Seuss' How the Grinch Stole Christmas" in HD in the evening :)


Mad

Originally posted by hall
You must be bored... :D It's not like you can "Chan Up" or down through these. You have to manually enter each channel number !!

Fat fingers found a couple of then then just just logically assumed if something showed up on one channel maybe channels on either side of it may contain somthing. Believe me, I didn't start with channel 700 and work my way up, though I thought about it. Maybe someday while wife is away. :)

Nitewatchman,

I'll leave a full fledged debate on whether cable is a monopoly for another day. A few comments:

In ANY monopoly there are always close alternatives even way back when, with "traditional" monopolies. You can burn firewood to heat your home instead of using gas or electric; the postal service will help you comunicate instead of the telephone company, etc. Monopolies can exist whether the product is essential (electric) or non-essential (diamonds).

You are correct that the federal law preempts rules prohibiting the use of an antenna or a dish WHEN THE ANTENNA OR DISH IS WITHIN YOUR AREA OF EXCLUSIVE USE. However, many people to not have an exclusive balcony, or even one that faces in the correct direction, in order to mount an antenna. The roof of an apartment or condo is not an option if you do not own it or have permission of the condo assn. or apartment owner.

Contrary to your post, local regulations play an important role, especially in the "limited" service. Limited service is not required by federal law. Instead, "limited service" came about through local franchsing agreements with cities, villages, and townships. In exhcange for the franchise agreement giving the cable companies access to public's right-of-way (allowing cable companies to string cable through, over and below the public streets, etc.), cable companies have agreed to provide "limited service", consisting of local channels and other "public service" stations. I have not seen these respective agreements, so I cannot say for sure whether the "limited" service also requires that HD locals be passed on. Thats one of the reasons there is different pricing among the townships, cities, etc.

About a la carte, cable companies have just screamed and moaned that it would be too expensive, but haven't provided any real numbers. Presumably the "limited service" accurately reflects the cost of providing the basic infastructure and service. Bottom line is TWC needs to disclose real numbers in order to make any determination as to feasability.

dc10forlife,

I'm not arguing that some cableco's can't be considered a "monopoly" given the present situation. I'm just pointing out, they do not need to be, it's their subscribers who CHOOSE to use their services, and in some cases, the management of apartment buildings/etc that help make them what we could consider a monopoly.

Comparing telephone service with postal service as a alternative is going a bit far though. We are talking specifically about television programming, for which, as I said most people have other choices besides cable. Sat, or Sat+OTA can give you more than what TW offers, generally for less. You've got OTA, you've got DVD, VHS/etc/etc/etc. I don't have the choice of cable at my rural location, too expensive for them to serve my location, and, I have no interest, whatsoever in cable service anyhow.

Originally posted by dc10forlife
However, many people to not have an exclusive balcony, or even one that faces in the correct direction, in order to mount an antenna. The roof of an apartment or condo is not an option if you do not own it or have permission of the condo assn. or apartment owner.


True, that's one of the reasons I mentioned MATV(master antenna) systems. There is no reason why a apartment dweller w/o access to good reception from his area of "exclusive use" CAN'T have other alternatives besides cable. As I said, Satellite services+MATV systems can, and in some cases do serve MDU(multi-dwelling units). And, indoor antennas work for many folks. I've used them in apartments before.


Originally posted by dc10forlife

Contrary to your post, local regulations play an important role, especially in the "limited" service. Limited service is not required by federal law.


None of that is contrary to my post. I didn't say local regs/agreements didn't play a role, and I didn't say limited service was required by federal law. Let me try again. What I meant to say was, "Basic" or even "limited" cable services usually include cable retransmission of local broadcast signals(including DTV/HD), and AFAIK(unless I said, it is specified in some way the cable carriage agreement between the cableco+the station), they are NOT going to be allowed to put Free-to-air HD services on a seperate "tier" that requires further conditional access beyond what is required for "basic" cable service, that isn't receivable by "basic" cable subscribers. And, you don't necessarily need a STB from the cableco, or even digital cable service to get HD from local broadcasters(those who have a agreement with TW for cable carriage) via TW cable service. See 1450khz's posts on how HE utilizes his analog cable subscription to receive HD from the locals.

Again, unless there is some sort of special arrangement between the broadcaster+cableco for retransmssion rights the local broadcast signals(including HD) have to be sent "in the clear" over the cable system, they can't encrypt them, or charge more for access to HD from the local stations. This is part of the federal rules governing cable carriage of broadcast stations.

I suppose a "special arrangement might be: If they come up with a retransmission consent deal between a broadcaster+cableco, where the deal involves broadcasters directly receive subscription fees via their cable carriage agreement with the cableco(say they agree to charge cable subscribers $2 a month in order to receive one of the local HD stations), although I'm not sure how that would work out where other "rules" are concerned if it's a service they provide free, OTA, such as HD presently. "ancillary services" transmitted via DTV OTA on a subscirption basis are another matter, and broadcasters must pay a certain amount of their revenue from ancillary DTV services to the Gov't).

Originally posted by dc10forlife
cable companies have agreed to provide "limited service", consisting of local channels and other "public service" stations. I have not seen these respective agreements, so I cannot say for sure whether the "limited" service also requires that HD locals be passed on.

Sorry for the double post ... But thought I should address this, perhaps more clearly than I have above ...

What a cableco can do concerning carriage of local channels(including DTV/HD) is governed by the agreement between the cableco and the broadcaster. Those agreements are in part governened by federal(FCC) cable carriage rules, concerning either Must-carry rules, or retransmission consent rules. Cable carriage of the HD/DTV station is going to involve seperate agreement from the analog, at least in all cases I know of, presently.

IF Must-carry rules are elected by a station, in order to qualify for "must carry" the cable-head end for the specific community involved must be within the station's coverage area -- and remember, a station has to ASK/invoke must-carry on a cable system, the station does not HAVE to use must carry rules if it doesn't want. Currently, A station can choose must-carry for either the analog or digital station, but not both, and currently, must-carry for digital only applies to the stations' primary program service, not multicast services. MOST(all around here that I know of) Digital HD/stations being carried by cable currently are via retransmission consent agreements. Things are a little "different" with non-commercial stations -- There was an interesting article (bargaining with cable) here this week about cable carriage of DTV/HD from a fellow(who uses the "M" word) at a statewide PBS network in Iowa:

http://www.tvtechnology.com/features/digital-journal/News_Digital_Journal.shtml

Generally speaking --(again, unless they work out a "special" deal), a broadcaster, and the agreements between cableco's+broadcasters(as well as FCC rules pertaining to cable carriage rights of broadcasters+cablecos) ARE NOT going to allow a cableco to remove the broadcaster's HD from "limited" or basic cable services. Obviously, the way advertiser supported TV works, you want as many eyeballs as possible.

Originally posted by dc10forlife
I have not seen these respective agreements, so I cannot say for sure whether the "limited" service also requires that HD locals be passed on. The city of Dayton's agreement is available online here, http://rrcs-24-123-76-219.central.biz.rr.com/~cdtn/cable_TWfranchise.html. It's between Dayton and Viacom from 1991 and is effective for 15 years. I've went through around page 20 but it's 72 pages total and I ain't reading all that. :D

I'm sure that MVCC has theirs available also.

One part in particular with the Dayton agreement is item 116.13: Auditing; books and records. The city is allowed to look at TW's books no more than once a year.... Do they ?? I doubt it....

Originally posted by hall
The city of Dayton's agreement is available online here, http://rrcs-24-123-76-219.central.biz.rr.com/~cdtn/cable_TWfranchise.html. It's between Dayton and Viacom from 1991 and is effective for 15 years.

You must remove the "." from end of URL you provided in order to get to that agreement.

Again, it is the agreements between the cableco+broadcasters(stations) which are in part governed by FCC rules which are most applicable where carriage of "HD locals"(and tier placement) or, for that matter carriage of local broadcast signals in general are concerned. Those agreements are likely to not be accesable by the public.

HD locals *must* be in the "basic" service(lowest cost) tier per those rules, except under special circumstances, for instance if its in the agreement between the station+the cableco, or evidently, in a special case if the cableco in question is found to face "effective competetion" under various requirements(which among other things includes a requirement involving a FCC order specific to the specific cableco and deregulation of the issue) which are pointed out in quote from FCC rules near end of this post.

Why do you think it is possible, currently and in the past to receive the HD locals via TW Dayton/WOH via "basic" or "limited" service begin with? Did you think they just "put them there" on the basic, low cost tiers because they wanted to ;)

For those who need the facts from the source :

Here is a "basic" fact sheet from FCC concerning the report and order concerning Cable carriage rules involving agreements between broadcasters and stations concerning must-carry+retransmission consent concerning DIGITAL(i.e. HD) stations.
http://ftp.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/News_Releases/2001/must_carry_factsheet.html

Below is what it says from the FCC fact sheet concerning DTV locals and "Tiers and rates". Keep in mind, HD is DTV, but DTV doesn't *have* to necessarily be HD, there are 18 video formats with DTV, only 2(720p+1080i)) are HD. Per the rules also, Cableco's aren't allowed to "downrez" or degrade the HD signal, but of course it IS possible for the station+cableco's agreement for cable carriage to involve SD digital DTV signal instead of HD digital signal -- ALTHOUGH, keep in mind, it is the HD signals we, and the cableco's WANT from them, and that is generally what is considered the "primary signal" from DTV stations -- SOME stations(such as WBDT-DT) provide ONLY a HD signal via their DTV station over the air. :

:quote

Tiers and Rates
The Report and Order finds that digital television signals must be available to subscribers on a basic service tier.

:end quote

Here is another link with info from FCC on the cable carriage rules for DTV :

http://www.fcc.gov/mb/engineering/digital.html

Here is the full report and order for DTV cable carriage, in PDF format:

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/2001/fcc01022.pdf

In word Doc format:

http://www.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Cable/Orders/2001/fcc01022.doc

See section E. "Tiers and rates" in the Report and order for more info.

Follows is a section of paragraph #102 of above report and order, which specifically addresses the issue (references to footnotes removed) -- Note that the "act" they are referring to is an "act" of congress. It looks like there is a "special circumstances" "loophole" involving competetive issues which in *some special cases* *may* allow a cableco to put HD/local signals on a seperate tier :

begin quote:

102. In the context of analog must carry, it has been the Commission’s view that the Act contemplates there be one basic service tier. We believe that in the context of the new digital carriage requirements, it is consistent with the statutory language to require that a broadcaster's digital signal must be available on a basic tier such that all broadcast signals are available to all cable subscribers at the lowest priced tier of service, as Congress envisioned. The basic service tier, including any broadcast signals carried, will continue to be under the jurisdiction of the local franchising authority, and as such, will be rate regulated if the local franchising authority has been certified under Section 623 of the Act. We note, however, that if a cable system faces effective competition under one of the four statutory tests, and is deregulated pursuant to a Commission order, the cable operator is free to place a broadcaster's digital signal on upper tiers of service or on a separate digital service tier. This finding is based upon the belief that Section 623(b)(7) is one of those rate regulation
requirements that sunsets once competition is present in a given franchise area. We believe that the decision in Time Warner
v. FCC supports this interpretation.

: end quote

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
You must remove the "." from end of URL you provided in order to get to that agreement. Broken bulletin board software.... can't distinguish when a hyperlink should end.... Why do you think it is possible, currently and in the past to receive the HD locals via TW Dayton/WOH via "basic" or "limited" service begin with? Did you think they just "put them there" on the basic, low cost tiers because they wanted to They do in fact "just put them there". Without an HD decoder, be it their set-top or an HDTV tuner card for a PC, you can't see 'em though. Maybe it's easier for them (???)

For what it's worth, look at this page, http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/CLU/TWCCLUs.ashx?CLUID=119&Zip=45410&Image1.x=24&Image1.y=6&Image1=submit :

Channels 711-756 are not listed as being part of the "Limited Tier".

Originally posted by hall
do in fact "just put them there". Without an HD decoder, be it their set-top or an HDTV tuner card for a PC, you can't see 'em though. Maybe it's easier for them (???)


AAAARGH! LOL. Did you not read my last THREE posts?????? Again, as posted TWICE in my last post DIRECTLY from FCC rules, The following is the reason they "just put them there". This IS DIRECTLY from the FCC rules that govern cable carriage of local digital[HD] broadcast stations :

require that a broadcaster's digital signal must be available on a basic tier such that all broadcast signals are available to all cable subscribers at the lowest priced tier of service, as Congress envisioned.

----------------------

Update: note also that it probably doesn't say anywhere in the rules that they have to TELL their subcribers, or advertise on their Channel lists on their website that the HD/digital locals are available(depending upon the user's equipment) on the "lowest cost" tier. If I were a broadcaster though, I'd bring that up during negotiations with the cableco for cable carriage ....

Originally posted by Nitewatchman
AAAARGH! LOL. Did you not read my last THREE posts?????? I'll take a look at 'em again tomorrow when I have more time.... :D

Originally posted by hall
I'll take a look at 'em again tomorrow when I have more time.... :D

Note that this goes for anyone here ... I do not mean to "single out" Hall ...

NEXT time, please WAIT until you "take the time" to read contributions from others here before posting comments/questions in response. Or for that matter, it is often a good idea to research the info/facts concerning any issues you may post about.

It wastes ALL of our time If members don't do that .... It's best to research+read first, and then post your comments/questions ... not to mention wasting the time of those in the broadcast/other industries related to DTV which monitor(or at least have in the past) this thread+AVSforum.

You would not BELIEVE how many times many of these issues have been rehashed+rehased on AVSforum in the past. Now, I don't mind going over some things that can be answered easily that a person would really have to "dig" for, but It really does get old, especially when incorrect info/facts concerning issues which have been covered extensively in the past are posted as "Fact" by those who do not have the "real" poop on the issue, just because they didn't want to "read" a long post ...

Sure, given the nature of a forum such as this we can expect this sort of thing from time to time, but I've noticed there has been FAR too much of it for my tastes as of late, and the forum software(search function for instance) usually allows for a way to research such issues.

Shall I check with you for permission before I post from now on too ??

hall,

Go ahead, continue to show your ignorance by posting ridiculous comments+wasting our time. Noone needs my permission to post ridiculous comments, it's not against any forum rules that I'm aware of. IF you want to reasonably discuss issues in the "future", if the subject involved is of interest to me, I would be glad to engage in worthwhile discussion ....

My comments were based on the hope that this thread, and AVSforum in general can continue it's maximum usefulness for others concerning accurate information and "reasonable" discussion of the issues. I didn't say you needed *permission* from me for anything. I am not a moderator, and didn't create this thread, or post any rules regarding it's use. As far as the rules go, read the forum rules+FAQ.

I could care LESS whether or not you read my posts, but if you post incorrect information, you can sometimes expect a response(if anyone feels it is worth responding to), perhaps a venomous response if accurate info on the issue was just provided which your response contridicts ...

Personally, should I make a mistake, such as involving incorrect information, I welcome+appreciate any corrections, and or "reasonable" discussion of the issues involved.

-----------------------------------------------

All,

There is an interesting thread here in programming area concerning comcast asking FCC for deregulation involving cable companies which face competition, which relates directly to the possible "loophole" I mentioned in an earlier post concerning the requirement for carriage of DTV(HD) locals on the least expensive tier :

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=474022

As usual, issues related to the DTV transistion+HD(not to mention cable carriage, including of the "old" analog signals) can often be very complicated, and the "rules" can, of course change ....

It seems that audio sync is off on WHIO during King of Queens tonight... The last two episodes have been this way, kind of strange that certain shows seem to continually have the syncing issues.

It seems that audio sync is off on WHIO during King of Queens tonight... The last two episodes have been this way, kind of strange that certain shows seem to continually have the syncing issues.

I'm in Lima looking to dump TWC for TV very soon.

Here's the results I got off of the antennaweb.com website for my address. I see myself coupling an OTA with D* most likely. I have a thread in both the HDTV Hardware section and DBS section for my satellite questions, if any of you want to hit that. The theme of the thread is: How the heck do you get good satellite in wintery conditions and so forth.

antennaweb.com said:
Need a violet-uhf/vhf class:

"You need a Large Directional Antenna.

These large, multi-element rooftop antennas are used in weak signal areas for maximum possible TV reception. These antennas can be used in ANY LOCATION, but require an amplifier and roof mounting to receive blue and purple channels. Amplifiers are not recommended for yellow channels. "

All thoughts and comments appreciated. I know TERK has not been recommended to me for antennas. I do see some other highly recommended names but they slip my mind currently. I'd love your all's take on this here and recommendations along those lines.

I know there's two local satellite dealers/installers outside of Custom Audio Concepts, who does DISH, and ABC Warehouse, who I think does both E* and D*. These would be Satellite Connection, Inc. and Beerline TV & Satellite. Has anyone here done business with either of those?

Originally posted by Nitewatchman

Sure, given the nature of a forum such as this we can expect this sort of thing from time to time, but I've noticed there has been FAR too much of it for my tastes as of late, and the forum software(search function for instance) usually allows for a way to research such issues.

Nitewatchman,
I can understand were you are coming from. I too have contributed lately in making this a "Lets Bash TWC" thread, so for that I am sorry. While you are not a moderator of these forums, you are a person that I would definitely consult for ANY and ALL OTA reception problems or concerns. I might find someone else to talk to about PQ comparisons, but thats a whole other story ;) So in keeping with the thread "Dayton Ohio/Lima HDTV Reception", I will limit my complaining to a minimum and reserve my comments on this thread to those that pertain to station issues/ programming.

All,
In the words of the "great" Rodney King......"Can't we all just get along?"

My brother lives behind Satellite Connections (on S Dixie Hwy) and knows the owner of the place.... He and my sister had Dish installations by them. Since they know each other, of course the installs were likely done above the norm to some degree.

I would keep this in mind with Dish resellers though: Dish advertises and does offer "no committment .... from Dish Network". That is, if you call Dish and order service, you can cancel a week later free and clear. I had 'em for 6 months and cancelled w/o any problems (after having DirecTV for 3 years). With local installers or resellers, *they* often will impose their own 1-year contract with you. Why ?? If you cancel within a year, Dish penalizes them (charge-backs). If you want Dish and no contract, call Dish directly. It's possible that either Satellite Connections or Beerline will do the install, but you'll be under no obligation to them.

As for HD reception in Lima, it ain't good, is it ??

Q of Banditz,

Yep, you're probably going to have to look at the "best of the best" sort of antenna setups to have much luck with OTA HD from Lima area at present, and it still might be difficult, especially at present. Would be interesting to hear how it turns out for you when you get things set up ...

We discussed Lima OTA issues quite a bit a while back on several pages in this thread, much of which should be of use to you. You should be able to find that discussion easily enough by searching the thread for "Lima", or "WLIO"/etc.

Let us know how it goes,

Originally posted by jbh613
I might find someone else to talk to about PQ comparisons, but thats a whole other story


For some excellent info on that, Search +read posts in programming area from AVSforum members "mmost" and "Glimmie". mmost has often worked on production or post production of Network TV shows.

Also, you can also find lots of great info concerning the "display issues" side of things on the various AVSforum areas concerning display devices. (RPTV, Direct-View/etc).

Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
All thoughts and comments appreciated. I know TERK has not been recommended to me for antennas. I do see some other highly recommended names but they slip my mind currently. I'd love your all's take on this here and recommendations along those lines.


UPDATE: I forgot to mention below, you might have some luck getting the best info from any installers in your area who are experienced and knowledable concerning OTA antenna installs. Be sure to tell them that you want to use the antenna for OTA digital+HD reception.

Having not heard any OTA DTV reception reports from anyone in your area ... Let me put it this way -- If you are going to DIY ... You could *try* something like a CM4228 with CM7777 preamp up outside as high as you can get it without going to too much trouble at first(and that's probably the best place to start), and you might run into some luck if you are in a High/flat spot/etc, but, that might not quite do the trick for OTA HD, as Lima area is pretty much out of range of the predicted coverage areas for all Digital/HD stations except :

WLIO-DT 8 Lima -- Which is at low power and does NOT provide NBC HD presently, (you may need a dedicated Hi-band VHF antenna for it, CM4228 is UHF only),

WTLW-DT 47 Lima - Religous, No HD.

WBGU-DT 56 Bowling Green Ohio - Which DOES have PBS HD, however, they are at low power presently. Here's a map of their current, predicted Coverage area(I believe the predicted "fringe area" of this map(47dbu Contour) is based upon a directional recieve antenna with 10db of gain mounted 30 feet above ground) : http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/FMTV-service-area?x=DS678719.html

So, for various reasons concerning their coverage areas discussed earlier in this thread(at least presently -- FT Wayne stations may become easier to receive once they get up to full power/etc), with the "best of the best" of antenna setups, I STILL don't know what sort of chances you would have at getting any sort of reliable signals from the next closest OTA DTV/HD stations out of Dayton, Ft Wayne or Toledo/Columbus.

If you're going to try to shoot for getting some sort of signal from those stations, the best antenna setup you can muster would probably be a good idea. But, there are no guarentees the reception of HD stations from Dayton, Ft. Wayne, Toledo/etc will be reliable enough for reliable reception at *all* times, due to the main limiting factor here -- The curvature of Earth as it relates to transmitting antenna height/receiving antenna height -- Generally, in this area of the country given the transmitting antenna heights+terrian/etc, 55~65 miles is about the limit of "reliable" coverage area for full power stations - VHF is usually a bit more forgiving than UHF, but there are only a couple of VHF DTV stations in those cities currently, since the analog signals have VHF band saturated. Of course, you're exact location is important -- Lima is pretty much within the fringe area of the Ft. Wayne analog stations I believe, as should be the case when the digital/HD stations from Ft. Wayne increase power+maximize their facilities, especially so if your on the West side, or West of Lima.

IF you can get the antenna up REALLY nice and high on a tower, you've probably got at least some sort of shot at some of those, but you are probably talking about quite a project(and expense) there.

The pics at below links would show the sort of setup that is along the lines of what would probably be a very good idea for the best possible reception for you :

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/CurrentUHFTower/index.html

http://community-2.webtv.net/GregBarker/NewTowerAntennas/index.html

------------------

If you can talk to some folks in your area which are using OTA for HD/DTV they could probably help you more. Sorry I can't help more, but, having not heard anything concerning any results from anyone who has attempted OTA HD from "beyond the HD fringe area" of Lima, I'm afraid I can't be of much help.

Sorry I don't have better news -- the good news is, I tend to probably be a little over conservative about these things, and it certianly is sometimes possible to get good reception of stations from beyond their "predicted coverage area" ... But, I wouldn't count on it ... Those "violet" antennaweb stations can be difficult, or even impossible, but at least it's a good sign you have some stations showing up on there besides WLIO-DT, WTLW-DT+WBGU-DT .... You'll probably just have to try it with a 1/2 way decent antenna setup mounted outdoors, as high as you can get it without going to to much trouble to "test things" ....

Make sure to tell us how it turns out for you,

And Good luck,

Originally posted by browerjs
It seems that audio sync is off on WHIO during King of Queens tonight... The last two episodes have been this way, kind of strange that certain shows seem to continually have the syncing issues. We watched the show off of the DVR and had no problems with sync.... Well, it could have been off a tiny amount, but nothing like last week .... that was really bad.

When you watched it, maybe less than five minutes in, did the picture "pop", almost like a really quick resolution change (but the resolution did *not* change) ??

Actually, nitewatchman, you've been a GREAT help! :D I'll do some more reading earlier in the thread, as you suggested as well. Happy Thanksgiving, all! :D

I read this post in another forum and would like to hear comments.... I'm only posting snippets of it, not the entire post(s) though:

[DIRECTV] Getting hdtv local channels off air without antenna

The (DirecTV) guy came up and set up my new dish but did not hook up the terk44 antenna on my dish to get the over the air local high def channels. My wife pointed it out to him and he said I did not need it.

...I was getting the off air hdtv channels in my area with no antenna. I have a samsung hdtv directv reciever.

With the samsung reciever it combines the advanced 7 day guide and has all of the local analog and digital channels. For instance cbs is channel 7 analog, 7-1 digital and also has a 7-2 digital feed. I believe the 7-1 or 7-2 is a letterbox.

...start at say channel 2 and toggle up you will get a channel 2 which says analog with a lousy picture, then the next channel up will channel 2 and will state satellite and will have a pretty good picture, then channel 2-1 which will say digital and then 2-2 which will be digital too but the picture will be letterbox. Oh yeah and all of this are the local ABC feed here. The 2-1 and the 2-2 are also extremely better picture feeds then the others especially the analog one. I have this same setup for the CBS channel 7, the NBC channel 12 and the FOX channel 45. I also pick up a bunch of other high def local channels for PBS,WB, etc.

I only have a cable coming from dish (rg6) connected to sat in on back of reciever. He has nothing connected to his receivers "Antenna In" input. He lives in Miamisburg.

Given the proximity of Miamisburg to the Dayton Towers, he is probably picking them up off the short piece of wire inside the receiver between the tuner in the receiver+the antenna input. I can get a snowy pic from most of the Dayton analogs in that fashion, even 12 miles away. It's a bit unlikely anyone can expect any sort of reliable reception via that method, however although it might happen to some extent if a strong enough signal is present. I do know of folks within a few miles of the transmitters who get good DTV reception with a short piece of wire hooked up to the "ant in" input.

The installer probably told him he "didn't need" the antenna hooked up because he is subscribing to LIL locals (the analogs) via Sat. It is unfortunate that HD/DTV/OTA "knowledge" is sometimes woefully lacking among installers+retailers/etc ...

And, of course, Channel 2/WDTN is now Dayton NBC affiliate(as of 8/31/04). Channel 22/WKEF is the ABC affiliate, I take it the "channel 12" was a typo. Channel 12(WKRC) in Cincinnati is CBS affiliate and I don't think he would be picking up Cincinnati OTA "off the screws" ....

Anyone else notice that the program guide frequently lists the wrong show for Discovery HD Theatre ?? Quite a few times, it will list some program on at 3pm and say American Chopper on at 4pm. I turn to the channel between 3 and 4 and it's showing American Chopper.

I realize that since they only show (1) commercial during each episode and sometimes only a 30-second one at that, that many shows end at :45 to :50 minutes after the hour vs the full hour one is used to. I'm NOT talking about the filler material either.

Anyone notice during Still Standing last night (8pm WHIO) that when Bill said "bastard" that it was censored, at first I couldn't believe it so i thought it might have been a coincidental glitch on my dvr, so i rewound and sure enough it was blanked out. I'm guessing this was at a station level as there was nothing talked about on this issue in the HDTV Programming forum? Anyone else catch this, or did anyone watch it on channel 12 out of cincy, was it censored here?

i know i'm probably the only one in dayton that watches Lost but i'll try this anyway

Last 5 mins on WKEF had no audio. was i the only one?

You knew something was gonna happen because they have been spot on with the switch flips for about 2 weeks now

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
Last 5 mins on WKEF had no audio. was i the only one?


WKEF-DT 51.1 still has no audio at 10:40pm. They probably need to "reboot" something, such as, perhaps their audio encoder. I was watching Lost pretty faithfully for the first few episodes, but sort of lost interest.

i was able to get the audio via other sources for those 5 mins but no dice for the scenes from next week's ep

any idea if the previews for next week are available somewhere?

Rakesh,
Dont worry, my wife and I are both hooked on Lost. We were watching last night, and also had the audio drop off at the end. Boy was I pissed! Had to quickly tune to analog station to hear the end. On a side note, boy what a plot twist in this episode! I am itching for next Wednesday.

Originally posted by jbh613
Rakesh,
Dont worry, my wife and I are both hooked on Lost. We were watching last night, and also had the audio drop off at the end. Boy was I pissed! Had to quickly tune to analog station to hear the end. On a side note, boy what a plot twist in this episode! I am itching for next Wednesday.

i'm glad that you were able to catch it on analog..

i was watching smallville OTA at 8 pm and recorded lost so i was out of luck as far as switching to analog

yep, great twists and turns on the show..love the supernatural elements also..i am also looking forward to the next episode to see what happens next

Once again WKEF-22 does not have the HD on for the Big 12 championship game evcen though it is HD everywhere else...

Sinclair disappoints again

Have you tried calling WKEF? Call the "news line" and ask for them to switch HD on. Is that game even supposed to be HD? I thought ABC didn't do any college games in HD.

And here's some WHIO jackassery for you: dumping the UNC-UK basketball game to air "The Santa Clause". However they're more than happy to show us exciting UD Flyer games :rolleyes: instead of CBS prime.

Thank goodness I have WKRC and WBNS and have no reason to watch WHIO.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
However they're more than happy to show us exciting UD Flyer games :rolleyes: instead of CBS prime. And it was "Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer" at that !!! Of course, they replayed it the next night at 7pm....

Originally posted by BuckNut
evcen though it is HD everywhere else... Seems a lot of stations didn't get the memo. SD from WCPO-DT in Cincinnati. Calling them had no effect.

Originally posted by 1450kHz

And here's some WHIO jackassery for you: dumping the UNC-UK basketball game to air "The Santa Clause". However they're more than happy to show us exciting UD Flyer games :rolleyes: instead of CBS prime.


Last time UD played Kentucky, UD won. Kentucky is overrated like every other southern team, and would get trounced by UC if Kentucky ever had the guts to play them.

Its time for WHIO to air the flyers in HD. The flyer games are the best thing that WHIO puts on the air. Kentucky fans could learn a thing or two from Dayton fans.

pre-empting primetime HD programming for some ma and pa basketball game is just lame

i'm sure more people watch CBS shows than the UD games in Dayton..

it's safe to say that HD is out of the question for WHIO, who have all sorts of problems with their existing HD signal(blue streaking lines, ugly pixelation due to multicast).

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
i'm sure more people watch CBS shows than the UD games in Dayton.. Perhaps, but WHIO only gets a few minutes of inventory per hour of network programming. For the game, they get to sell ALL of the inventory. It could also be that, in order to secure the rights, they have to clear a certain number of games, many of which fall on weeknights.

Eventually, it will dawn on these stations that they can carry the game on their subchannels while leaving the network to run on the main. But not until there's a lot more DTV penetration.

Originally posted by DrDon

Eventually, it will dawn on these stations that they can carry the game on their subchannels while leaving the network to run on the main. But not until there's a lot more DTV penetration.

it's funny you should mention that. Since the clueless WHIO people are already running a sub that destroys HD PQ, why not put the game on that channel?

I just wish i could get WKRC out of cincinnati....

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
...for some ma and pa basketball game... A "ma and pa" game ?? I'll bet WHIO isn't the first station to do that for the "home" team's game, when given the opportunity.

Besides, life does go on without TV, even "HD" TV.....

Originally posted by hall
Besides, life does go on without TV, even "HD" TV.....

i never said it didn't

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
pre-empting primetime HD programming for some ma and pa basketball game is just lame

i'm sure more people watch CBS shows than the UD games in Dayton..


This might not be the case, Dayton is considered the #1 "non-partisan" (for a lack of better term) basketball city in the nation. That's the reason the play-in game for the tourney is here every year. Dayton has a better chance to fill the stands for that game then anywhere else. There are plenty of Dayton Flyer fans out there and I'm sure they are watching. I know I'd be pissed if my Bearcats weren't on TV for every game on WXIX (that's not nationally televised). I do wish WHIO would utilize it's subs though.

Originally posted by browerjs
This might not be the case, Dayton is considered the #1 "non-partisan" (for a lack of better term) basketball city in the nation. That's the reason the play-in game for the tourney is here every year. Dayton has a better chance to fill the stands for that game then anywhere else. There are plenty of Dayton Flyer fans out there and I'm sure they are watching. I know I'd be pissed if my Bearcats weren't on TV for every game on WXIX (that's not nationally televised). I do wish WHIO would utilize it's subs though.

It also dosen't hurt to have I-70 and I-75 conecting with one another.

It could also be that, in order to secure the rights, they have to clear a certain number of games, many of which fall on weeknights.

You are likely correct, but I doubt given the incestuous relationship between Cox Media of Dayton and UD that they would ever lose the rights.

Its time for WHIO to air the flyers in HD. The flyer games are the best thing that WHIO puts on the air. Kentucky fans could learn a thing or two from Dayton fans.

Please, I don't want to see Hairpiece Hartsock in HD. :eek:

lol, Hairpiece Hartsock

But back to Time Warner, since my phone service is terrible due to a long distance and OLD lines from the switching station. Calling only temporarily fixes the problem. I am considering their least expensive triple play combo package even though I am not fond of TW either.

HD over the air isn't great with my tuner (MyHD) perhaps due to me being over the hill. I'm running a LD antenna with rotor to pick up stations and even that is sub-par even though I am less than 8 miles from the transmitters.

Anyone try the TW phone service yet?
or get the HD Digital box with this service?

Originally posted by lameris
... or get the HD Digital box with this service? A number of us who post in this thread have TW's HD set-top. The only complaints I recall off-hand about TW is the price..... :D

That said, my complaint (other than cost) is the lack of WDTN's digital channel (NBC) via TW. There's also no UPN -- can't say I've EVER watched anything on that channel anyway. WB is on the way as they're broadcasting it already, though it's "hidden".

As for what digital channels they're broadcasting, please give your general location, i.e. inside city limits, Englewood, Centerville, Beavercreek, etc, as the lineup varies, though it may only vary in regards to PBS. Everyone will get TNT-HD and Discovery HD Theatre though.

I do NOT pay for the add'l HD "tier", which includes HDNet, HDMovies, InHD, InHD2, and ESPN-HD.

I live just north of Dayton, in Harrison Twp, specifically a few blocks north and east of Shiloh Church on N Main Street.

I don't expect to pay (or get) the additional HD tier yet either. The only other complaint than price for TW is service, which you just gotta live with. The phone company service isn't any better. I would probably be doing DSL, and Dish, if the phone lines were any good, but with TW's combo price, everything is about the same cost anyway.

Does TW charge extra for the HD set-top box, or is it the "same" price as the regular digital box?

I know my spouse would much prefer one remote and one method of accessing the TV rather than the multiple remotes required now...

I'm familiar with where you live (we used to live about the offices on the corner of N Main and Orchard Springs) and I'm guessing that's former Viacom cable territory, so that would now by "City of Dayton" as far as Time Warner is concerned. In that case, you'll get WKEF-DT (ABC), WRGT-DT (FOX), WPTO and WPTD (PBS) (about eight or more between those two), and WBDT (WB .... soon).

They don't charge extra for an HD set-top box.

Just got a Samsung 360 from DirecTV to replace dead Toshiba DST-3000.
Not getting channel mappings for WKEF-HD or WRGT-HD (to 22-1 and 45-1, respectively). Also, not getting program info. for ANY of the local digitals except 5-1. Anybody else have the same problems?

wkef didn't flip the switch for lost and weren't about to either

called this one in...

does anyone know how to get in touch with their engineering dept? i'm sure they don't read email(otherwise they would've received the message by now), so that's a waste of time

their system doesn't even give you an an option for "engineering" when you dial their number....I left a message with the promotion director or whoever last weekend and asked him to pass it on to engineering because i couldn't contact them directly.

i don't think he cares either and doubt he passed on the message to engineering, because they've been consistently missing HD for more than 1/2 hour in the last week or so..

Rakesh,
Didn't yours switch in the first commercial break? Mine did. I know this isn't acceptable, but it beats missing a 1/2 hr.

Originally posted by jbh613
Rakesh,
Didn't yours switch in the first commercial break? Mine did. I know this isn't acceptable, but it beats missing a 1/2 hr.

yes, because i called them and asked them to hit the switch

what i was saying was that if i hadn't called, I don't think they would've hit the switch..this is what happened with My wife and kids last week..they showed the whole 1/2 hour in SD..it never switched over..and i had it recorded so i didn't catch it live and have a chance to call them.

it kind of gets to be a pain to call them EVERY week..you'd think they would know by now

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
it kind of gets to be a pain to call them EVERY week..you'd think they would know by now Try three years. Until they got the splicer, the Cincinnati Fox affiliate got to know my voice. "Hi, it's me" was always answered with, "I'll go tell them now." They knew me and knew why I was calling.

In defense of MCOs, it can get pretty hectic around station breaks. Remembering to reach up and hit a switch on a router at the end of it all when it's something you don't do every time (and some nights not at all). MCO's most likely don't own HDTVs, so it's not top-of-mind to them. And the master control suites I've been in don't even have a DTV monitor (the delay can be confusing). There are also no HDTV monitors anywhere else in most stations (except perhaps the reception area) and few of the employees own one. So, there are no eyes on the digital signal full time. So, if they miss a switch or if the signal goes to crap or if it's the wrong signal or color bars, they have no instant feedback. No way of knowing. Unless you call.

I had one CE tell me his DTV transmitter was off the air for a day and a half before the station got the first phone call. He said, "That tells you how many people are watching." And that tells US why it's still a low priority with them.

And I know how they feel. The AM station known as "Bob 2" here was the responsibility of the WUBE-FM duty operator outside of business hours. From 5 - 9AM, that was me. The "XMTR OFF" warning light had burned out. Bob-2 was off the air from 2AM until nearly the end of my shift (9AM). Not until the receptionist went through the overnight voicemail and found the one lone call did anybody know. She buzzed me at 8:50 and I went around the corner and put it back on.

Originally posted by gindie
Just got a Samsung 360 from DirecTV to replace dead Toshiba DST-3000.
Not getting channel mappings for WKEF-HD or WRGT-HD (to 22-1 and 45-1, respectively). Also, not getting program info. for ANY of the local digitals except 5-1. Anybody else have the same problems?

WKEF-DT/WRGT-DT have never sent channel remapping info via PSIP, unless they are doing so in such a manner only a few receivers are seeing it. However, I expect your Toshiba box was doing the remapping via D* EPG instead of what most receivers use, PSIP info send by the stations.

Originally posted by gindie
Also, not getting program info. for ANY of the local digitals except 5-1.


Last I checked, WLWT-DT (5-1 remapped) and WCVN-DT in N KY were the only Digitals in the area sending program guide info OTA via PSIP. I don't know about the samsung box, but, in many cases D*+OTA receivers integrate the guide info/use the sat for the guide info for the HD locals given a local zip code is input somewhere in the menus for the local stations. DTC-100 is one exception I know of, it doesn't integrate guides or D*/OTA channel tuning at all.

Originally posted by DrDon
I had one CE tell me his DTV transmitter was off the air for a day and a half before the station got the first phone call. He said, "That tells you how many people are watching." And that tells US why it's still a low priority with them.
Just a suggestion somewhat related to this..... Let's try and find a common show that all of us watch (or we can fib a little) and after it's over one evening, and hopefully shown in HD, everyone call the station AND THANK THEM.

Only one comment and that is remember that WDTN isn't carried by TW Cable. Yes, I realize most here do OTA, but I'd prefer it be an ABC, CBS, or FOX program.

Oh, and if someone knows a "good" phone # to call vs the "news line" or similar, post it too.

I have a HD DVR box thru time warner. How do I get into the NAVI menu to view 1001 and 726 and so on and so forth. Sorry for asking this but I couldn't find it in the thread.

Mike

Look here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4680236&highlight=diag#post4680236

You have to manually enter the channel numbers you want.

Anyone happen to notice if WDTN broadcasted Will & Grace in HD last night. I guess last night was the first HD broadcast of it and I was just wondering if WDTN got the message. Unfortunately i'm gonna have to watch the SD broadcast on DVR tonight :(

After about 5 minutes, it was still SD so I switched to WLWT-DT--they got it right.

Anyone else hear the news regarding Lost? Apparently there will be no new shows until Feb 23th. Yeah for re-runs...

I'm seeing a weird smearing effect in the color on tonight's MNF game. It seems like some sort of sync issue--reds are coming too soon and blues too slowly. Not noticing this problem on any other stations.

Something really weird is happening on TW 722 ABC Monday Night Football. There are red and blue "shadows" following any motion around the picture. Are you over the air folks seeing the same thing?

Seems to NOT be affecting any of the other HD stations...

Something really weird is happening on TW 722 ABC Monday Night Football. There are red and blue "shadows" following any motion around the picture. Are you over the air folks seeing the same thing?

Yes, I'm seeing the same effect both on Time Warner and Off-air.

Has to be WKEF. I am seeing it OTA with a Samsung 360 receiver, and there aren't any complaints on the HDTV Programming board about it.

What's up with WHIO-DT? The blue lines don't appear to be there on HD programming tonight--only on the local commercial breaks. A couple times, they didn't switch to local commercials but showed the "It's all Here" promos. And the dolby sounds great, even if there is a slight sync issue. Now, about that sub...

Originally posted by hall
Look here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&postid=4680236&highlight=diag#post4680236

You have to manually enter the channel numbers you want.

I have the HD-DVR box and it is enter+exit then when 'DIAG' hit exit again

-enter- being the middle button between the channel up and channel down.

I've been reading about all these things you can do with other set-top boxes (entering the diagnostics pages, etc.) but I have the Pioneer HD box for Time Warner Cable, I believe it is the Voyager 3510HD. Are there any known tweaks for this unit?

This site is GREAT! Thanks in advance for anyone's help. I scanned through some other threads and couldn't seem to find anything, if this is a repost of some sorts, I greatly apologize. Thanks! :confused:

Originally posted by blabes12
Something really weird is happening on TW 722 ABC Monday Night Football. There are red and blue "shadows" following any motion around the picture. Are you over the air folks seeing the same thing?

Seems to NOT be affecting any of the other HD stations...

I've seen that once before from WKEF-DT as well back when they were NBC -- During one of the 2002 HD triple crown races. It wasn't there at the time from WLWT-DT NBC Cincy. I'm guessing a reset of their encoder/etc. was necessary to fix it, as has been the case with other glitches we sometimes see ..


Originally posted by Paul210
What's up with WHIO-DT? The blue lines don't appear to be there on HD programming tonight ....

And the dolby sounds great, even if there is a slight sync issue. Now, about that sub...


I do think the HD PQ from WHIO-DT has improved a bit lately as well -- Not quite as many noticable compression artifacts as there were during fast action/etc .... Still nowhere near as good as WKRC-DT though.

I also noticed during the Bengals/Pats game on Sun, that at least for a portion of the 1st Quarter, WHIO-DT had "true" DD 5.1. The Audio levels seemed quite high, but it sounded really great - Was even getting some nice stuff from the LFE .1 channel. I chose to watch most of the game from WKRC-DT because of the compression artifacts on WHIO-DT, but Unless something was going on at CBS with the production, after WHIO-DT switched back and forth between DD 2.0+DD 5.1(DD 2.0 from the unconverts from the Game updates+commercials/etc) a few times, it seemed to "stick" on "not quite true DD 5.1" from the stadium, even though the audio decoder still said DD 5.1.

Originally posted by onulaw76
...but I have the Pioneer HD box for Time Warner Cable, I believe it is the Voyager 3510HD. Are there any known tweaks for this unit? You'll likely have better luck in the HDTV "hardware" forum.

Here's a search on "3510" from that forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=64421&sortby=&sortorder=

Thanks!!!

Great news classic tier and digital value tier subscribers. A feast of new channels are now available from Time Warner Cable for your enjoyment during the holiday season and throughout the calendar year.

-Style, from the people that brought you E!, has moved from the digital value tier on channel 104 to channel 44 on the classic tier. Whether it is the elegance of the run-way or fashion tips, you can enjoy it all from Style.

-MTV Hits from Viacom networks is now available on the digital value tier on channel 105, replacing Ovation. The artists you can't get enough of and the pop hits you enjoy are now available 24 hours a day on MTV Hits.

-On channel 176-182 you can see even more of your favorite television Free On Demand. Oxygen, Adult Swim, The Anime Network, National Geographic, Speed Channel, Fine Living, and Great American Country anytime with the click of a button On Demand.

Also, as of this morning CNNfn has ceased broadcasting and has been eliminated from your digital value tier line-up accordingly.

Thanks for reading.

Originally posted by prophetvsprofit
-On channel 176-182 you can see even more of your favorite television Free On Demand. Oxygen, Adult Swim, The Anime Network, National Geographic, Speed Channel, Fine Living, and Great American Country anytime with the click of a button On Demand. Those have been available for sometime already. I've watched things on those channels already....

HDPPV is on channel 699 too. I saw it the other day, and yesterday had a message on my machine informing me that the fight this weekend would be available in HD on the PPV station.

Is 699 still showing up ?? I know it did for a few days last week or so but I haven't seen it in the past few days (or I'm ignoring it now).

Yes. Channel 699 is stil "showing up". I don't know if there are any plans to remove it from when we don't have an INHD PPV event scheduled or not. As soon as I found out, i'll pass it along.

Originally posted by prophetvsprofit
...when we don't have an INHD PPV event scheduled or not. As soon as I found out, i'll pass it along. We ?? Wait, you mean your friend who works for TW.....

Originally posted by Rakesh.S
yes i want ESPN-HD :P...I was stating that the price increase may indirectly be because of them adding ESPN. ESPN is notorious for increasing their per sub fee. I think TWC is enforcing that on us with this 10 dollar rate hike.

Limited = 12.50
DVR = 9.95
HD Box fee = 7.95
Navigator = $3
add in taxes and you're at 35 bucks

when you pay the DVR fee, i think it is just a recording fee, not for the equipment itself

OK. I'm a HD newbie; my display is showing up on Monday, and there's no way for me to get satellite (my apartment is facing the wrong way).

Currently, I get the "Limited" service from TWC, and it costs about $13/mo. The only thing I'm interested in is getting the locals digitally. Here are my options:

1. Buy an OTA HD receiver with an antenna to get the locals in digital
2. Buy an OTA HD receiver QAM capable with my cable to get the locals in digital
3. Rakesh seems to indicate that you can actually get the HD Box from TWC for $7.95 a la carte. I like this, b/c I wouldn't have to buy anything, really.

Is this correct? My real question is whether or not TWC actually sends the local digitals over this particular tier, and whether they'd actually let you get an hd receiver for 7.95/mo to tune them in. In any case, I believe I would need a QAM capable receiver working with the cable.

Am I wrong? Anyway, I apologize if I've asked questions that others have answered. I tried reading as many old posts as I could bear, and it seems that my scheme above is possible, but I honestly couldn't figure out whether conversations about what TWC offered at their lowest tier were for "today" or requirements for the future.

I have called TWC, and the befuddled CS person said I'd have to get their digital package in order to get the HD receiver. This seems more likely to be b/c he had no idea what I was talking about.

Thanks!

Hall, I am simply a supplier of information. I figured some of you would appreciate knowing when new services are available and making the most of the money you spend as valued customers. Don't be the rotten egg that spoils it for the bunch, if you understand my meaning.

fthomas, I called TW many, many months ago and got a "quote" for TW's "limited" package + HD set-top box + HD Tier. At that time, she was able to enter an order like that. Basically, their system allowed it. Based on Rakesh's (and others, I believe) recent experience, TW may have changed things and you cannot get things a la carte like this anymore.

Maybe prophetvsprofit could answer this definitively. :D

If you like NBC and WB, an OTA HD receiver is your only real option at the moment. Neither of those channels are available in "HD" from TW yet (WB is, but not officially).

Originally posted by fthomas64
OK. I'm a HD newbie; my display is showing up on Monday, and there's no way for me to get satellite (my apartment is facing the wrong way).

Currently, I get the "Limited" service from TWC, and it costs about $13/mo. The only thing I'm interested in is getting the locals digitally. Here are my options:

1. Buy an OTA HD receiver with an antenna to get the locals in digital
2. Buy an OTA HD receiver QAM capable with my cable to get the locals in digital
3. Rakesh seems to indicate that you can actually get the HD Box from TWC for $7.95 a la carte. I like this, b/c I wouldn't have to buy anything, really.

Is this correct? My real question is whether or not TWC actually sends the local digitals over this particular tier, and whether they'd actually let you get an hd receiver for 7.95/mo to tune them in. In any case, I believe I would need a QAM capable receiver working with the cable.

Am I wrong? Anyway, I apologize if I've asked questions that others have answered. I tried reading as many old posts as I could bear, and it seems that my scheme above is possible, but I honestly couldn't figure out whether conversations about what TWC offered at their lowest tier were for "today" or requirements for the future.

I have called TWC, and the befuddled CS person said I'd have to get their digital package in order to get the HD receiver. This seems more likely to be b/c he had no idea what I was talking about.

Thanks!

You're right....they had no idea what you are talking about.

You can get local channels + Discovery HD + TNT HD on Time Warner with any QAM tuner. These are what's unscrambled. I have the "Classic" package (analog channels only) and have a PC tuner card (Dvico FusionHD) hooked up to the cable and can get all those channels.
The use your own QAM tuner solution works well for me since I can record freely (hint: if you want a PC tuner card better buy them now before they require broadcast flag restrictions!) and I don't have to fork extra $ to rent a box. The downside is that there's no way I can get any channels on the "HD Tier" (InHD, ESPNHD, etc.) without having to rent a box.

However, if you want any of the pay HD channels you're stuck renting a box from Time Warner. I think that's been the issue in this thread....someone wanted to just have the minimum package (analog channels 2-25) + the HD Tier (pay channels i.e. InHD, HDNET, ESPNHD) and it sounds like Time Warner wants to make it difficult for people to get that sort of arrangement.

If you just want limited service and an HD box (to get the unscrambled channels) but you don't want the HD Tier (again, when I say HD Tier I mean the stuff you have to pay extra for such as ESPNHD, HDNET, etc.) I'm not sure if anyone's tried that...but in that case you can always use your own QAM tuner if they want to give you the runaround.

If TWC isn't going to let people get the HD Tier without having some other digital package, then I'll probably go to satellite if I wanted ESPNHD and such....TWC rates are too high compared to Dish for the same programming.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
You're right....they had no idea what you are talking about.

You can get local channels + Discovery HD + TNT HD on Time Warner with any QAM tuner. These are what's unscrambled. I have the "Classic" package (analog channels only) and have a PC tuner card (Dvico FusionHD) hooked up to the cable and can get all those channels.
The use your own QAM tuner solution works well for me since I can record freely (hint: if you want a PC tuner card better buy them now before they require broadcast flag restrictions!) and I don't have to fork extra $ to rent a box. The downside is that there's no way I can get any channels on the "HD Tier" (InHD, ESPNHD, etc.) without having to rent a box.

However, if you want any of the pay HD channels you're stuck renting a box from Time Warner. I think that's been the issue in this thread....someone wanted to just have the minimum package (analog channels 2-25) + the HD Tier (pay channels i.e. InHD, HDNET, ESPNHD) and it sounds like Time Warner wants to make it difficult for people to get that sort of arrangement.

If you just want limited service and an HD box (to get the unscrambled channels) but you don't want the HD Tier (again, when I say HD Tier I mean the stuff you have to pay extra for such as ESPNHD, HDNET, etc.) I'm not sure if anyone's tried that...but in that case you can always use your own QAM tuner if they want to give you the runaround.

If TWC isn't going to let people get the HD Tier without having some other digital package, then I'll probably go to satellite if I wanted ESPNHD and such....TWC rates are too high compared to Dish for the same programming.

Thanks a lot for the info. That was exactly what I was looking for... I have bought a Samsung SIRT-451, with QAM capabilities. Will let everyone know how it goes!

I'm not sure where you are located but here's what's unscrambled QAM on TWC Fairborn. Note that I'm using a PC tuner so the channel numbers I give out are the QAM slot (RF channel + sub) numbers and not the "virtual numbers" (channel 7xx) that TWC assigns them on their HD boxes.

91.1 WHIO (CBS)
93.1 WRGT (FOX)
93.2 WKEF (ABC)
108.1-5 WPTD (PBS)
108.6-10 WPTO (PBS)
109.1-4 WCET (PBS)
109.5 WBDT (WB)
114.1 Discovery HD
114.2 TNT HD

Also lately I've been getting
117.1 Some random EWTN feed
118.1 Another random EWTN feed (Spanish?)
119.1 Yet another EWTN feed
120.1 And another EWTN feed here (duplicate of one of the others)


Are you hooking an antenna up too? If you're in the Dayton area you'll need an antenna to get NBC shows as that affiliate is not carried on cable.

Originally posted by 1450kHz
I'm not sure where you are located but here's what's unscrambled QAM on TWC Fairborn. Note that I'm using a PC tuner so the channel numbers I give out are the QAM slot (RF channel + sub) numbers and not the "virtual numbers" (channel 7xx) that TWC assigns them on their HD boxes.

91.1 WHIO (CBS)
93.1 WRGT (FOX)
93.2 WKEF (ABC)
108.1-5 WPTD (PBS)
108.6-10 WPTO (PBS)
109.1-4 WCET (PBS)
109.5 WBDT (WB)
114.1 Discovery HD
114.2 TNT HD

Also lately I've been getting
117.1 Some random EWTN feed
118.1 Another random EWTN feed (Spanish?)
119.1 Yet another EWTN feed
120.1 And another EWTN feed here (duplicate of one of the others)


Are you hooking an antenna up too? If you're in the Dayton area you'll need an antenna to get NBC shows as that affiliate is not carried on cable.

I'm in Beavercreek, and have the classic package.

My tv is showing up in the next 2-3 hours, and will be able to fiddle with it tonight. I know that NBC is not carried through cable, so I guess I need to combine my antenna and cable? It would be inconvenient to have to unplug my connections just for NBC.... my tuner only appears to have a single antenna in, so maybe i need to send the antenna out to my antenna...

thanks again!

Originally posted by fthomas64
...so I guess I need to combine my antenna and cable? It would be inconvenient to have to unplug my connections just for NBC.... my tuner only appears to have a single antenna in, so maybe i need to send the antenna out to my antenna... Would a "diplexer" work ?? You can get 'em at Parts Express (part of Mendelson's downtown or at their Springboro store): http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&SO=2&&DID=7&CATID=55&ObjectGroup_ID=534

Will TW Host this?

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tvlistings/espnhd/espnHDStory?id=1898022

browerjs talked to an engineer a few weeks ago and he said it was not in their plans. I personally think that is total BS, after this new price hike of my cable. I am current shopping around for a good deal to switch to satellite, where I'll get a cheaper deal. The thing hold me back at the moment is that Voom has no DVR and DirecTV costs $300 to get the HD receiver.

Doesn't ESPN dictate what gets carried and not the cable or satellite provider ?? :D They are the ones who *force* ESPN to be available in the (second to) lowest analog tier.

Originally posted by hall
Would a "diplexer" work ?? You can get 'em at Parts Express (part of Mendelson's downtown or at their Springboro store): http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?webpage_id=3&SO=2&&DID=7&CATID=55&ObjectGroup_ID=534

Either that or an A/B switch.

Silver Sensor antenna would probably work in Beavercreek to get off-air channels. I was able to get them (weakly) using old crummy rabbit ears before I stuck all these antennas in my attic to get out of market stations (Cincy, Columbus) as well.

hall: "Doesn't ESPN dictate what gets carried and not the cable or satellite provider ?? They are the ones who *force* ESPN to be available in the (second to) lowest analog tier."

ESPN charges the cable system money to broadcast their stations.

It is my understanding that ESPN can push their new stations on to cable systems when their older stations agreements come up to renegotiate, but since ESPNHD just got added (after a lengthy negotiation), I would imagine it will until next September that we get ESPN2HD.

Originally posted by mlbUC
I would imagine it will until next September that we get ESPN2HD.

I actually doubt that it will take this long, I'm expecting it to be around at launch if not soon after. When TWC came to an agreement on ESPNHD carriage ESPN2HD was already announced and I find it hard to believe they wouldn't have negotiated ESPN2HD in these talks. Also from what I've read in the HDTV Programming forum, carriage companies (D*,DTV,TWC) often times do not annouce their plans for carriage until the launch date so other companies can't use negative advertising in their favor. I guess we'll find out in a couple of weeks.

I'll say it bluntly, ESPN is a pain in the butt to iron out deals with. I'm not saying don't expect it, but almost ceartainly not at launch. I am almost one hundred percent positive negotiations were limited to only ESPNHD. As always, negotiations will take place as I expect they will for the new upstart ESPN college sports channel next year and ESPN2HD. If I hear anything, you folks will hear it first.

The 1st company to announce (or actually have) ESPN2HD will probably be getting my business at the 1st part of the year. As a UC fan I will be ticked when I don't get to see their game against DePaul on "opening day" of ESPN2HD. That game is the 1st ever HD broadcast to go out over the new channel.

Just got my Explorer 8000HD DVR box from Time Warner (well, Sound Waves on 741 actually) last week, and so far so good. No charge for the box, except for the $4.95/mo fee. As many others have pointed out, the interface stinks compared to TiVo's, but the ability to record in HD is really nice, and no more IR emitter silliness.

For fellow 8000HD users, I found this helpful during my TiVo post-partem depression: a clunky but effective 30-second skip macro that can be programmed into the remote that comes with the box.

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=24178#24178

One strange thing: the page-up and page-down keys don't work for me... but since the remote appears to be fully JP-1 capable this ought to be fixable.

I will definitely be attempting to program that into my remote TONIGHT ! :D I'm really surprised it works though as it's been reported on Yahoo! Groups for the 8000 that SA actually removed the software code that does the 30-second skip.

Now available to digital suscribers on channel 175 are News, Sports Headlines, Movie Times, Weather, and Horoscopes On Demand.

Please be safe in the western ohio area if driving tonight. The roads are quite treacherous obviously.
Happy Holidays and Merry Christmas everyone! :)

Originally posted by blabes12
For fellow 8000HD users, I found this helpful during my TiVo post-partem depression: a clunky but effective 30-second skip macro that can be programmed into the remote that comes with the box. Can you get this to work ?? I tried quickly and couldn't.... I think the instructions leave out some details though he does say to reference the manual, which I did. Things like hold down the 'Setup' key 'til the 'CBL' light flashes...

You're right, hall, the real 30-second skip has been disabled. The macro is a cheap workaround that does a pretty good job of combining FF and a delay to get you about 30 seconds ahead. Better than nothing...

Just saw your post; yes, it does work for me. I used the "Music" button, and I had to repeat the process 3 times in order to program the macro into all 3 keypresses.

You guys should look into a Pronto. I love mine, and it took the place of 8 remotes. Also, its very easy to add custom buttons and label them anything, like "30 sec skip".

blabes12: I used the same button. I know what you mean now about having to do it (3) times too. I read the manual and it mentions those (3) keys can give you (9) "channels". So they mean press "Music" once for the music channels, a 2nd time for something else, and a 3rd time for something else yet. I need to replace the current music channel saving (or clear it .... saw that in the manual).

jbh613: $150+ for a remote ?? :D Nah, I'll pass.... I've considered a Kameleon and I saw one made by Philips-Magnavox that has potential. It's in the same price range as the Kameleon. One key thing is I want it to specifically say "DVR" on it, not a modification of the VCR function (then again, they're just tricking me and it *is* a VCR mod).

When i was looking for a remote a little less then a year ago, i found that the Kameleon wasted batteries real quickly because of the backlight thing that it has. I ended up going with the Sony RM-VL900 ( http://www.remotecentral.com/vl900/ ), it was around 80 bucks at the time at best buy. The control does everything i need it to do including macro's and it's great, but if i could go back i would have spent up to 200 bucks to get a better remote. The problem with my remote is that the button presses aren't intuitive. Like for the A,B,C buttons you have to map them to other things like TV/Video, etc. (buttons you don't use for the device you are on). Me and my wife (after a couple of months of training) can use it easily now, but if someone came over and picked it up they wouldn't know where to start. Universal learning remotes with macros are great and it's tough to spend a chunk of change on one until you have used one. But trust me, if you want one spend the money and get one that has labeling for your functions, it will be well worth it.

Edit: Come to think of it if you want to buy mine, i'll gladly upgrade :)

browerjs,
Maybe if you find someone to buy your Sony, I'll sell you my Pronto TSU300, since I'm looking to upgrade to the color 6000 version. Your right though, with my configuration anyone can pick up my remote and easily control anything in my entire setup. At this point my 6 year old can utilize one button macros that turn on the display, turn on the receiver, select the appropriate inputs on both, and jump to the select a DVD page that has jacket pictures of all my DVDs in my 300 cd/dvd storage device. Beyond that, I also programmed a fail safe operation that jumps to a password page if an inappropriate movie is accidentally selected. I can't think of another piece of equipment that can do this much for the $350 I paid(with charger).

I use a Home Theater Master® MX-700 from Universal Remote Control. It currently goes for about $350 and can control just about any IR device (including the lights in my home theater). It's programmed via a serial interface cable from my PC so just about any sequence can be downloaded. Kind of a pain to get set up since my home theater is in the basement and my computer is on the first floor but it does an excellent job of integrating all of my components including a DVR.

I live in Beavercreek, roughly 9 miles east of the Dayton TV transmitters (280-287 degrees, according to antennaweb). I have a small indoor UHF loop antenna to feed the OTA locals into my HDTiVo; this antenna is indoors, about 7 feet above ground level. I get good signal strength (80-90) on all channels, but my HDTiVo has never mapped the FOX digital channel properly. If I tune to channel 45-1, the HDTiVo complains that it can't find the signal on the antenna input. If I tune to channel 30-1, I get picture and sound (but there's no guide data to TiVo programs).

Last night, I wasn't receiving ABC on either the mapped channel (22-1) or the actual broadcast channel (55-1). I thought that perhaps my antenna had been bumped, so I realigned it while monitoring the signal strength of several channels. The loop antenna is in a plane roughly perpendiculr to the line from the antenna to the transmitters, so I think that's right.

After adjusting the antenna, I observed the "can't map the channel" behavior for the first time with ABC (the HDTiVo can't find signal on 22-1, but picks it up just fine on 51-1.)

I was fortunate enough to have been in Florida for the 16 inch snowfall last week, but there is still lots of snow/ice on the ground. Am I likely getting hosed by multipath reflections caused by the recent snowfall? Is my original problem with FOX channel mapping likely caused by some similar (but not-weather-related) multipath problem? Has anybody else had similar problems? Any suggestions? :confused:

I think your problem is that Fox (WRGT) and ABC (WKEF) don't send remap info. You'll actually find Fox on 30-1 and ABC on 51-1 (both also run useless SD multicasts on 30-2 and 51-2 respectively).

Rose parade on WKEF isn't coming through in HD, I've tried calling 263-4500 and the answering service where you forward to the newsroom isn't picking up. At least it's on Discovery HD for TWC subscribers, but hopefully it gets fixed for the BCS games later in the day.

I know I tuned into WKEF today just to see the parade in HD too... To bad they can't get their act together.

Okay.....stupid question time. I just bought a Sammy 451 to use the QAM tuner. Works great! During set up, the prompt for cable said STD, HRC, or IRC. I selected STD (which I assume was standard). What do the others mean and how are they different? Thanks ahead of time and Happy New Year!

Rose parade on WKEF isn't coming through in HD, I've tried calling 263-4500 and the answering service where you forward to the newsroom isn't picking up.

Try 268-6800 (it's listed in the White Pages as WKEF newsroom).

They are claiming that there is some problem with their satellite equipment and the HD feed is not coming in.

Yea i found that number a few hours ago and have called twice about it. They never gave me a reason though

Well ABC local has really screwed up with the Rose bowl. Time to get out on the roof and point my antenna towards Cincitucky.

I just got off the phone with the newsroom and they claim ABC called this morning and asked them to change which satellite they get the game from. Consequently they cannot receive the HD feed. What a load of crap! Why didn't they call Columbus or Cincy and request the same thing? Does this even sound plausible?

Beats me. I should call them back and let them know I'm watching WCPO instead. I'm actually picking them up today (using a 10-ft long hi-vhf antenna that I had tried--unsuccessfully--to get WSYX with).

I am on the north end of Fairborn and I can't seem to get Cincy or Columbus. The best antenna I have is the Silver Sensor. I can get a signal just not enough to quite pull it in... Any tips?

I've lost my WCPO signal.... :mad:

Was tropo up tonight or something?

Check this site out for info:

http://home.cogeco.ca/~dxinfo/tropo.html

Originally posted by BuckNut
I am on the north end of Fairborn and I can't seem to get Cincy or Columbus. The best antenna I have is the Silver Sensor. I can get a signal just not enough to quite pull it in... Any tips?

I'm in Beavercreek Township and have never been able to pick up cincy's or cbus stations with my silver sensor. Which stations do you pick up?

I can get a signal from WCPO ABC9 out of Cincy, WSYX ABC6 out of Columbus and WBNS CBS10 out of Columbus, but not enough to lock onto it. If I am not mistaken WCPO and WSYX both broadcast on VHF frequencies, so the silver sensor may be at a disdvantage. Is there anybody near Fairborn that has an antenna and can pull in stations from Columbus and Cincy? I am considering erecting a channel master 4228 tomorrow. Hopefully that will help.

What are the digital station numbers for those?

According to antennaweb.org WSYX is 13-1, WCPO is 10-1 and WBNS is 21-1.

I am just east of Fairborn on Dayton-Yellow Springs Road. I get WBNS regularly using an 8-bay just like the 4228. It's in my apartment attic...if you get it outside you should have no trouble at all. I haven't been able to pull in WSYX but I think I have a terrain blockage issue between me and their tower.

I was getting WCPO earlier tonight but no dice now.

Are you using a preamp and/or a rotor?

CM7777 pre-amps. No rotors, I have separate antennas pointed at Columbus and Cincinnati.

Do you or anybody else know if there is anywhere to buy a good outdoor antenna and preamp locally?

Also, sometimes the silver sensor seems to work great and other times it seems like no matter what I do it has drop outs every couple of minutes, and it is maddening. I am only 13 miles from the transmitters, all of them are in basically the same location, yet somehow I can never seem to receive them all well at the same time. Sometimes it seems like the silver sensor is so directional it is detrimental.

BuckNut,

You may want to check with Dayton Wintronic. I got a ChannelMaster Crossfire series antenna there. That's a step above the series that's carried at Lowes. I think Nitewatchman previously posted here that Wintronic may carry other brands, such as Blonder Tongue, but I don't know that for sure. I do know for sure that the people at Wintronic are very courteous and helpful.

Paul

No HD for the Sugar Bowl on WKEF. Has ABC still not made HD available through a different satellite? :)

Is there a worse affiliate in this country?

Could they be doing this due to trying to get their local ratings up? I have read in the past that the HD feed and SD feed are not added together for ratings purposes. If they want get them up these bowl games would be a good start.

Ugghhh... no HD again tonight for the Sugar Bowl. I am going to bet that tomorrow night will not be in HD either. The explanation I got from the goon in the newsroom sounded essentially the same as Saturday only he had no idea what he was saying. What is wrong with these guys? It just seems like there is nothing we can do. I would encourage everyone to call 268-6800 and complain. Maybe if they get enough calls they will realize how deep their rectal cranial inversion is...

Just Called, took several tries to get thru to a live body.

Arrrrgh! And I can't get WCPO to lock in tonight either! :mad:

What a bunch of morons. Screw it, I'm not even going to watch the game now.

Just called, they said they would "pass the info on to the engineers". I'm guessing the girl didn't want to explain the issues to me :)

I had just called also before reading these posts. Newsroom guy said they do not get HD on satellite. But he agreed other ABC stations had HD and probably Cincinnati which I can't get! It must be how they elect to get their feed from ABC!? I get the feeling they are not owning up to the real reason. This is ridiculous!

Thank you. My brother just called and the woman said they were trying to get it in HD and they should have it in HD tomorrow night. However, I remain skeptical. She said they had received quite a few calls about it. Keep 'em comin'!!!

Just went HD

We rock!!!

I just called.... a very kind sounding lady said that "they were aware of the problem and that they do have an engineer working on it." Hopefully they will find the problem.....:rolleyes:

Woohoo!

:D

Amen!!!!

is anyone getting an NBC HD channel in dayton?

Both the WDTN feeds are stretched SD right now..don't know what the hell is going on

scratch that did a rescan and it was on 50.04

haven't watched NBC in a few months, so i still had it memorized on channel 2.

It sounds like their PSIP generator took a nosedive.

What is the over/under on Dayton ABC switching over to HD before we swarm them tonight?:p

I see sidebars. Does that mean "over" or "under"?

8:18pm, no sidebars now.

I meant the yellow "ABC HD" sidebars on the pregame.

I'm taking some captures using my Fusion card for the Cincy folks to compare to WCPO.

Last Night the local Fox News at 10 reported on HDTV and was talking about the game quality (Sugar Bowl) of their sister ABC channel. Now if their sister channel actually switched to HD... It appeared to be SD when I checked at the start of the game.

Maybe the news department thought about the HDTV story after fielding all our "flip the switch" calls and realizing someone is watching. :D

I know when I tried on New Year's Day the guy told me they'd had several calls asking where the HD feed was.

I thought the same thing when i heard the lead in......

getting WKEF ready on speed dial..

there's a 99.9% chance that they won't flip the switch for primetime in a couple mins here

WDTN missed the switch for Will and Grace. Strange considering the two shows before it were both in HD. I called the station and they said they would pass the word, but i'm guessing they don't think it's broadcast in HD considering this is only the 2nd HD episode

I have yet to have an HD broadcast from WHIOTV (channel 7) to have the audio sync' up correctly. Right now I am watching the football game and whenever they go to the gal on the field for a quick update, her mouth doesnt match up with the audio.

Friday night, JAG was out of sync.

Should I call and complain? Is this a local station issue?