Ok , thank you for explaining that. I guess I kind of wondered what the max was. I do like their programming on 11.3-32.3 (the Create/World split channel).


Trip, do you know the reasoning why UNC scaled back to 3 channels? Mike

Because they were timesharing. Take WUNC-DT 59 (4-1) for example, this is what UNC was doing:

4-1 UNC-SD (24/7)
4-2 UNC-HD (8p-11p)
4-3 UNC-KD (24/7) Kids Shows
4-4 UNC-ED (11p-8a) Assorted PBS programs
4-5 UNC-NC (11p-8a) North Carolina programming

But this confused some receivers and would result in no audio and other issues. So it wasn't really 5 subchannels, there was time-sharing going on. So now WUNC-DT looks like

4-1 UNC-HD (like the network stations do, HD when available)
4-2 UNC-KD
4-3 UNC-NC

And those air 24/7. Personally, I think UNC-KD should have gone away with UNC-ED in its place, but I'm not the one who makes decisions.

- Trip

Ok , thank you for explaining that. I guess I kind of wondered what the max was. I do like their programming on 11.3-32.3 (the Create/World split channel).


Trip, do you know the reasoning why UNC scaled back to 3 channels? Mike

UNC only scaled back their OTA, their direct fiber optic cable feeds are still all 5 channels. Their HD feed was only available from 8-11 every night anyway.

Because they were timesharing. Take WUNC-DT 59 (4-1) for example, this is what UNC was doing:

4-1 UNC-SD (24/7)
4-2 UNC-HD (8p-11p)
4-3 UNC-KD (24/7) Kids Shows
4-4 UNC-ED (11p-8a) Assorted PBS programs
4-5 UNC-NC (11p-8a) North Carolina programming

But this confused some receivers and would result in no audio and other issues. So it wasn't really 5 subchannels, there was time-sharing going on ... Some tuners don't like being jerked around like that. A couple of years or so ago, we had a station in Eastern Iowa which was upgrading its equipment, but in order to do that, they had to take their 720p equipment off-line and use a temporary 480i, SD-only encoder. Every time they switched between the two, my picture would go to garbage (usually bright pink and green garbage, not very appealing) unless I tuned to another station and back to 9.1. But that was just a temporary thing for maintenance. Here, we had UNC changing the format of the channel every day. I'm sure a lot of folks were asking questions.

Some tuners don't like being jerked around like that. A couple of years or so ago, we had a station in Eastern Iowa which was upgrading its equipment, but in order to do that, they had to take their 720p equipment off-line and use a temporary 480i, SD-only encoder. Every time they switched between the two, my picture would go to garbage (usually bright pink and green garbage, not very appealing) unless I tuned to another station and back to 9.1. But that was just a temporary thing for maintenance. Here, we had UNC changing the format of the channel every day. I'm sure a lot of folks were asking questions.

As far as I know, KET in Kentucky still does that, flipping back and forth their x-3 feed between 480i and 720p depending on the time of day.

As for UNC, the big problem was that they'd leave a placeholder image up in 480i on whatever feeds weren't in use at that time, but no placeholder audio, so the feeds would often end up scanned in while in placeholder mode and then have no audio when programming would come on. Between that and flipping 4-2 from 1080i to 480i and back again, it's a wonder anyone could keep up with it.

- Trip

Geez, I guess we are lucky that IPTV is doing it the way they are! Are any of the network stations (other than KWWL and ION) planning on adding a 3rd channel? Mike

Geez, I guess we are lucky that IPTV is doing it the way they are! Are any of the network stations (other than KWWL and ION) planning on adding a 3rd channel? MikeI'm sure everybody's looking for opportunities, but it does take some expense to add a subchannel and even more to be able to insert local commercials into it to make it pay. There's no guarantee cable will pick it up and every guarantee that satellite won't, and if you're running a national service you have to be concerned about how long it will be there.

Funny you should mention KWWL in Waterloo -- their first two subchannels were Weather Plus and The Tube, both of which are now kaput, and now RTN is off the air due to an apparent miscommunication between its old and new owners. Apparently there was supposed to be a handoff of control early this morning but the old owner hasn't been able to communicate with the new one about it. Perhaps too many people on the "top floor" were taking a five-day weekend for New Year's, or maybe the new owner has the wrong cell phone service and gets no bars where they are. :D

(You're probably not seeing RTN on WOI, either, for the same reason.)

(You're probably not seeing RTN on WOI, either, for the same reason.)

RTN is still on WOI as of this afternoon.

RTN is still on WOI as of this afternoon.

It wasn't on this morning, I guess they got everything worked out.

I think I may be getting greedy for my "free TV":)! As a consumer, I wasnt really thinking about the cost for the other sub-channels-----of course you are right. It does take some money for that.

As for RTN ,it was off here this morning on 7.3 and 5.2 (just a channel 5 logo on WOI). It has been back up this afternoon though. I was reading the Wikipedia entry on the "dispute", and then I swear I left my computer for about 30secs., hit the refreash button ,and the entry about the dispute was gone! Hopefully they have it worked out------I really enjoy their programming. Mike

Hi All,

First time poster here. I was curious if anyone knew if digital TVGOS EPG information is going to be broadcast by any of the local stations after the digital switch.

I have an OTA Sony HD DHG250 DVR that I don't want to give up after the switch. It currently operates using analog TVGOS data but there is a procedure to force it to use a digital host if one is available.

Sorry if this has already been covered.

Thanks

Hi All,

First time poster here. I was curious if anyone knew if digital TVGOS EPG information is going to be broadcast by any of the local stations after the digital switch.

I have an OTA Sony HD DHG250 DVR that I don't want to give up after the switch. It currently operates using analog TVGOS data but there is a procedure to force it to use a digital host if one is available.

Sorry if this has already been covered.

Thanks
Here is a link to a website that monitors this. I don't see anything yet for Des Moines as yet.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos

Here is a link to a website that monitors this. I don't see anything yet for Des Moines as yet.

http://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=tvgos

That's because I don't have any data at all for Des Moines yet. It doesn't mean KCCI does or doesn't carry TVGOS, it just means I don't have the data to say either way.

- Trip

That's because I don't have any data at all for Des Moines yet. It doesn't mean KCCI does or doesn't carry TVGOS, it just means I don't have the data to say either way.

- Trip

I did get a response from the engineer at KCCI saying that because they are an independent affiliate of CBS they are not required to broadcast and will not be broadcasting the TVGOS data. I was curious if any of the other stations might have struck a deal with TV Guide since KCCI won't be covering this market. I figured it was a long shot but I thought I'd ask just the same.

Thanks

Some PBS stations are carrying it, but I doubt IPTV is. If KCCI isn't carrying it, and IPTV isn't carrying it, I doubt there's much hope of an affiliate in your area. Sorry. :(

- Trip

I did get a response from the engineer at KCCI saying that because they are an independent affiliate of CBS they are not required to broadcast and will not be broadcasting the TVGOS data. I was curious if any of the other stations might have struck a deal with TV Guide since KCCI won't be covering this market. I figured it was a long shot but I thought I'd ask just the same.

Thanks

Probably not, cause CBS is the only network using it.

Probably not, cause CBS is the only network using it.

Thats what I was afraid of. It would apear the only other solution for a non-subscription based High Definition OTA DVR that will function after the digital switch would be the DTVPAL DVR (TR-50). Initial reports on the AVS forum would suggest its having a few issues with reboots and freezing so I'm not sure I want to make the purchase yet:confused:

Bug IPTV and see if they'll carry it. I know of at least two other PBS stations carrying it.

- Trip

Thats what I was afraid of. It would apear the only other solution for a non-subscription based High Definition OTA DVR that will function after the digital switch would be the DTVPAL DVR (TR-50). Initial reports on the AVS forum would suggest its having a few issues with reboots and freezing so I'm not sure I want to make the purchase yetAlso, you could use a Media Center computer with ATSC tuners in it to get your DVR fix without a suscription for the Guide data. I would have to grant you that the computer solution is not as "plug and play" simple as a standalone box, but I have built a few that I later sold to some nontechnical friends, and at least half of those have been just fine other than the occasional restart (it's still a Windows-based computer). The other half would be fine except they won't bring them back to get fixed properly, so I keep trying to figure out what's wrong and fix it over the phone.

(it's still a Windows-based computer)

Off-topic, but the computer you have (as noted in your sig), is that running Vista 32 or Vista 64?

- Trip

does anyone know when our local news will be all HD, they showed a clip of HD on ch 8 news at six last night and it got me thinking about it

Off-topic, but the computer you have (as noted in your sig), is that running Vista 32 or Vista 64?

- Trip
It's running the 32 bit version.

Bug IPTV and see if they'll carry it. I know of at least two other PBS stations carrying it.

- Trip

Here is an email I got back from IPTV. Not sure about this as several other CBS stations are broadcasting the TVGOS data digitally.

"Thank you for your inquiry.

It is my understanding that the GOEs signal is not compatible with the digital signal stream and nobody will be carrying it. Possibly, in the future, there will be a way to incorporate it back into the signal but for now it will not be there."

Here is an email I got back from IPTV. Not sure about this as several other CBS stations are broadcasting the TVGOS data digitally.

"Thank you for your inquiry.

It is my understanding that the GOEs signal is not compatible with the digital signal stream and nobody will be carrying it. Possibly, in the future, there will be a way to incorporate it back into the signal but for now it will not be there."

IPTV's understanding is incorrect. Macrovision is providing equipment to integrate TVGOS into the HD signal. Many stations carry it, including all the stations noted with green checkmarks in the list linked in my signature.

- Trip

Did anyone notice that Di*h added KDMI on channel 56? Its about time. I have been curious , does anyone know if they ever plan on offering the local sub-channels? I.E. PBS 11.2 and 11.3? 5.2 would be nice also. Mike

Did anyone notice that Di*h added KDMI on channel 56? Its about time. I have been curious , does anyone know if they ever plan on offering the local sub-channels? I.E. PBS 11.2 and 11.3? 5.2 would be nice also. MikeKDMI is the MyNetwork affiliate, so that probably figured into it. Also, the KDMI stream on 56.1 is technically its primary channel, and it is hosting KCWI as a subchannel since KCWI didn't have a paired digital when it came on the air.

Is it just me and a few friends that have been experiencing problems with the DTV broadcast of WHO HD in the Des Moines area. There is a terrible problem with audio and even the video issues.

It is enough to stop me from watching WHO HD through DTV. I have contacted DTV and they state that they do not know of any problems with WHO HD and that it might be just my HR20-700. It also occurs also on my H20-600 and on some friends DTV service too.

However, I do not get this problem while watching 13-1 with my old OTA connected throught the DTV receivers.

Is it just me and a few friends that have been experiencing problems with the DTV broadcast of WHO HD in the Des Moines area. There is a terrible problem with audio and even the video issues.


I'm experiencing the audio sync problem as well. I've switched to OTA for channel 13 for now. I have an HD-DVR without the OTA tunner (can't remember the model number).

Is it just me and a few friends that have been experiencing problems with the DTV broadcast of WHO HD in the Des Moines area. There is a terrible problem with audio and even the video issues.

It is enough to stop me from watching WHO HD through DTV. I have contacted DTV and they state that they do not know of any problems with WHO HD and that it might be just my HR20-700. It also occurs also on my H20-600 and on some friends DTV service too.

However, I do not get this problem while watching 13-1 with my old OTA connected throught the DTV receivers.

I have also been having this problem and have dealt with it the same way: On TVs that have an external antenna I watch 13.1. The odd thing is that the problem is not always present. Some days it seems to work fine and other days it is almost unwatchable.

I have a hard time believing Dtv is not aware of this problem. I have to think WHO is getting calls from local viewers.

DirecTV will begin airing PBS-HD via Sat tomorrow morning, 01/14/2009, according to dbstalk.com

I'm assuming this is only 11-1 and not the sub-channels -2,-3.

I'm assuming you all mean the DirecTV broadcast of channel 13.

Normally on the forum posters abbreviate DirecTV as D* and Dish as E* (for Echostar). That way they aren't confused with DTV, which stands simply for "digital television," including the over-the-air signal.

I'm assuming you all mean the DirecTV broadcast of channel 13.

Normally on the forum posters abbreviate DirecTV as D* and Dish as E* (for Echostar). That way they aren't confused with DTV, which stands simply for "digital television," including the over-the-air signal.

Yes, I am referring to DirecTV's HD broadcast of channel 13.

Interestingly, it seemed to be in sync yesterday but this morning again it is out of sync.

DirecTV will begin airing PBS-HD via Sat tomorrow morning, 01/14/2009, according to dbstalk.com

I'm assuming this is only 11-1 and not the sub-channels -2,-3.

11-2 is basically the digital version of IPTV's analog broadcast. This is currently what DirecTV is showing on the SD version of channel 11.

So basically what I am trying to say is DirecTV is showing 11-1 on the HD version of channel 11, and 11-2 on the SD version of channel 11. It is only 11-3 that we don't get via DirecTV.

11-2 is basically the digital version of IPTV's analog broadcast. This is currently what DirecTV is showing on the SD version of channel 11.

So basically what I am trying to say is DirecTV is showing 11-1 on the HD version of channel 11, and 11-2 on the SD version of channel 11. It is only 11-3 that we don't get via DirecTV.

I hadn't noticed that as I watch most of the PBS stuff OTA. I'm glad to see they got it going on the sat, even though I'll rarely use it. I like PBS, but prefer OTA when the choice is available, as the sat signal never looks as good as OTA (in my particular case. I'm not trying to start a debate.:))

As I hear it, on February 1, Iowa Public TV will realign their feeds as follows:

IPTV will be on 11-1, in HD. So it'll be just like any of the network stations, HD when available, upconverted SD otherwise.

11-3 will drop Create and become "IPTV World" 24/7.

11-2 will become "IPTV Learn" with PBS Kids programming from 5:30PM to 10PM, and Create programming the rest of the time.

- Trip

Could someone tell my what is going on with ION 39? Do they have a digital signal? I recieve everything possible in the CR-Waterloo and DM-Ames markets, but I cannot get a signal for 39. I do get analog 39 ,although, it doesnt seem as strong as it used to. I can get 48.1-48.4 out of CR , just not a real strong signal in my area. I should say I am only using an amplified indoor antenna----I cannot put up an outside antenna. Thanks, Mike

KFPX-39 does not have a digital signal at this time. Once the transition takes place, they will transition from analog to digital on channel 39.

- Trip

Could someone tell my what is going on with ION 39? Do they have a digital signal? I recieve everything possible in the CR-Waterloo and DM-Ames markets, but I cannot get a signal for 39. I do get analog 39 ,although, it doesnt seem as strong as it used to. I can get 48.1-48.4 out of CR , just not a real strong signal in my area. I should say I am only using an amplified indoor antenna----I cannot put up an outside antenna. Thanks, Mike

39 and 23 are both stations that came on the air in the DM market after the FCC had allocated channels for the digital transition. Therefore, they weren't given a transitional assignment and have to flash-cut on their channels cold. 23 has 56 as a digital sister station, so they used it's bandwidth to give 23 a digital presence, but 39 doesn't have that benefit.

Ok, that explains why no signal! So on 2/18/09 , I should see 39.1? Do you guys know if they plan on carry the other 3 channels like 48? Thanks for the help. Mike

Ok, that explains why no signal! So on 2/18/09 , I should see 39.1? Do you guys know if they plan on carry the other 3 channels like 48? Thanks for the help. Mike

I have no inside knowledge, but every ION station carries those same subchannels, so I think it's a safe bet.

- Trip

Ok, thanks Trip! I swapped indoor antennas last night. Found a RCA ANT 1250,(I actually have a whole tote full of indoor antennas) that I paid $5 bucks for new (no typo), at a Target 3 years ago---it had to be mis-marked. It works better than my USS Enterprise from RS. I am even splitting the signal between an old BW portable and a 30 year old small color TV. My wife thinks I am nuts, but its mostly a DX thing for me. Thanks for the quick help, Mike

Ok, thanks Trip! I swapped indoor antennas last night. Found a RCA ANT 1250,(I actually have a whole tote full of indoor antennas) that I paid $5 bucks for new (no typo), at a Target 3 years ago---it had to be mis-marked. It works better than my USS Enterprise from RS. I am even splitting the signal between an old BW portable and a 30 year old small color TV. My wife thinks I am nuts, but its mostly a DX thing for me. Thanks for the quick help, Mike

No worries, I'm a DXer myself.

Des Moines got caught in an interesting situation. It turns out that the number of digital stations in the area nearly doubled after the digital channels were laid out in 1997. 23, 34, 39, and 56 all signed on afterwards, and thus don't have separate analog and digital stations. 39, as you've observed, does not have its own digital frequency, while 23 and 34 are available on analog while 56 signed on digital-only and provides not only its own programming, but also digital versions of the programming on 23 and 34. This arrangement will change after the transition, and each station will carry its own programming.

- Trip

Thank you for that info-----I had never really heard the reasoning behind the lack of analog or digital at these stations. I think things will get REALLY interesting after the transition. By the way, Witch Hunt-----great under-rated Rush song. Mike

Thank you for that info-----I had never really heard the reasoning behind the lack of analog or digital at these stations. I think things will get REALLY interesting after the transition.

Won't be anything a rescan, and maybe a little antenna readjustment can't fix.

I am just hoping for a little more signal. Possibly increasing the strength or DX on some of the stations. Especially KWWL, I really like their current line-up. I get KGAN, and KCRG pretty decent. FOX28, is VERY strong. I am kind of looking to try and log maybe channel 12 (PBS Iowa City), or an Ottumwa station----just holding my breath, I know they are both LONG shots. Mike

KIIN-12 will be reverting to 12 at some point after the transition, and you might have better success with it then.

KYOU-15 in Ottumwa is currently at very low power, but will be much better after the transition (they'll move their digital from low-power on channel 14 to full power on channel 15). I wouldn't attempt it before the transition occurs.

- Trip

I am pretty much pushing the "limits" right now. I am trying to DX as cheap as possible, without an outdoor antenna. KIIN might be possible in the Summer, since its VHF. I actually get their audio (analog), along with Mason City and Ft. Dodge (ch. 21 and 24) on a wideband reciever (with only a handheld stock antenna). Ottumwa, is another story, kind of keeping my fingers crossed on that one. I would really like to log a few of the PBS translator towers (analog of course). Didnt mean to get too off topic! Mike

I am pretty much pushing the "limits" right now. I am trying to DX as cheap as possible, without an outdoor antenna. KIIN might be possible in the Summer, since its VHF. I actually get their audio (analog), along with Mason City and Ft. Dodge (ch. 21 and 24) on a wideband reciever (with only a handheld stock antenna). Ottumwa, is another story, kind of keeping my fingers crossed on that one. I would really like to log a few of the PBS translator towers (analog of course). Didnt mean to get too off topic! Mike

Without an outdoor antenna! Now that's a challenge! Good luck to you.

I'm sure the folks here don't mind a bit of off-topic conversation, though if you wish to discuss DXing further, feel free to send me a PM. I'm not in Iowa, but I am into DXing. :D

- Trip

Won't be anything a rescan, and maybe a little antenna readjustment can't fix.

If you are using a DirecTV DVR with OTA, it will be a LOT more than a rescan (considering they don't scan in the first place). D*'s DVRs require preformatted data to be downloaded to the DVR for it to be able to find OTA stations.

I expect a real mess on Feb 17. (as they have had problems before with this issue, with only a single channel change).

I interact with the public a lot ....I expect hundreds of calls on Feb 17, as 3 of our locals are going from UHF back to their old VHF assignments...they won't remember how to rescan and they may not have adequate VHF antennas, since all digital has been UHF for a couple years in this area.

It is NOT going to be a pleasant experience.

Anybody with HR20 experiencing a lag with some of the shows on the HD Local feeds or any other station?

I've seen a couple audio sync issues on WHO and WOI, but they are intermittent and I don't see it all the time.

I bought a new HDTV yesterday and it is the only difference I can see. I spent 30 mins with a Samsung tech and we think it is a DTV issue. Nightly News on NBC and MSNBC seem out of sync. Fox 17 is a bit behind and CBS definitely has a lag. I've check recordings on my DVR prior to today and they display ok on the new TV.

I am seeing the issue with NBC nightly news especially Brian Williams. When the taped segments play they seem much better than Brian. I use antenna and Samsung set top box. No dish at all.

I am seeing the issue with NBC nightly news especially Brian Williams. When the taped segments play they seem much better than Brian. I use antenna and Samsung set top box. No dish at all.
I spoke to D* last night again about WHO. On my DVR, there was terrible issues with not only lips sync but also jittery video (not pixxing). On my H20-600, I got the same video problem, but No sound at all. However, when accessing the OTA through both receivers on channel 13-1, I did not experience any such problems.

D* tech staff, noted that they had closed the issue ticket on 01/20/2009, stating there was a problem with WHO and that it had been corrected. I informed the tech, that the issue do still exist and requested that the issue be escalated to the engineers.

Hi All,
Just found this segment of the forum, very interesting.
Hi Hasan,
I have a couple questions: What are the antennas heights & power out of WHO KCCI WOI FOX ETC ?
Im working with some here, trying to figure out what we will all need to recieve these signals.
Currently, I have a VHF/UHF antenna mounted just above roof,I have it fed with RG59 and will change this to RG6 Quad shield when it thaws out around here.
I have 3 tv's, one is a new 19"Samsung Series 3, one is a Sony Wega HD about 4.5 years old and a older analog tv that im going to replace soon.
The Samsung is connected to the OTA only
the other 2 are connected to the OTA & thru Direct dish, the Sony 50" has a direct HD rcvr,and the analog has only a model D11 direct rcvr.
all cables in the house are now RG6
The Smasung gets about 30 channels,except for Ch 5 digital, it does only get ch 5 regular.
the Sony, wont even recieve ch 5
the analog only tv does get ch 5 regular. no digitals sigs
I hope I have left enough info,But why cant I receive ch 5 of any sort on the Sony?
I also have a seperate dish from direct for the Cedar Rapids market, they wont let me have a Des Moines dish here.
and on the dish, I do not recive ch 9 digital only analog..strange,do i need to talk to Direct about this.
Help.....Chuck

JUST IN TODAY: KDMI

The FCC has granted KDMI's request for an extension of time to construct its final digital station. KDMI now has until August 18, 2009.

It appears this delay could force KDMI off the air if it is still forced to move off Channel 56 after February 17. KDMI was set to move to Channel 31 -- currently occupied by KCCI-DT -- but has applied for permission to take over WHO-DT's Channel 19 instead so that it can stay on the same tower and use equipment WHO will stop using after the transition.

The station cites "severe financial hardship" in asking for the delay, but has asked the FCC to keep the details confidential.

(A recap for those just tuning in: Digital-only KDMI carries MyNetwork/America One on its SD main channel, KCWI/CW on an HD subchannel, and religious station KEFB on another SD subchannel. KCWI and KEFB have no digital channels of their own and are flash-cutting.)

Hi All,
Just found this segment of the forum, very interesting.
Hi Hasan,
I have a couple questions: What are the antennas heights & power out of WHO KCCI WOI FOX ETC ?
Im working with some here, trying to figure out what we will all need to recieve these signals.
Currently, I have a VHF/UHF antenna mounted just above roof,I have it fed with RG59 and will change this to RG6 Quad shield when it thaws out around here.
I have 3 tv's, one is a new 19"Samsung Series 3, one is a Sony Wega HD about 4.5 years old and a older analog tv that im going to replace soon.
The Samsung is connected to the OTA only
the other 2 are connected to the OTA & thru Direct dish, the Sony 50" has a direct HD rcvr,and the analog has only a model D11 direct rcvr.
all cables in the house are now RG6
The Smasung gets about 30 channels,except for Ch 5 digital, it does only get ch 5 regular.
the Sony, wont even recieve ch 5
the analog only tv does get ch 5 regular. no digitals sigs
I hope I have left enough info,But why cant I receive ch 5 of any sort on the Sony?
I also have a seperate dish from direct for the Cedar Rapids market, they wont let me have a Des Moines dish here.
and on the dish, I do not recive ch 9 digital only analog..strange,do i need to talk to Direct about this.
Help.....Chuck

First of all, for all your OTA capabilities, go to:

tvfool.com and type in your location information (in the Signal Analysis section). This will then show you expected signal strength in your area. If you don't see an NM (noise margin) of at least 15 dB, expect problems. If you see more than 25 dB, you should be good to go. Note that NM and signal levels are presented to show you the kind of antenna that should work for you. The color coding shows what kind of antenna will be required for the signal level that is predicted.

BTW, Channels 5, 8, and 13 are moving back to their prior VHF assignments, and as a result, Channel 5 is predicted to be considerably stronger, while 8 and 13 will be about 4 or 5 dB weaker. I would go with the largest outside antenna you can support easily at a decent height. I don't think you will get good results with any indoor antenna, even a "real" antenna in your attic, but that's a guess. tvfool will tell ya what ya need to know.

Let me know how you make out with tvfool.

What you get from D* is a function of agreements and then the accuracy of the Tribune data provided to D* for "programming" the OTA tuners that are in or attached to D* sat receivers. If you are missing a channel, find out if you are supposed to be receiving it. (contact D*). If you are supposed to be receiving it via D* OTA, then contact the local TV engineer and ask him to provide fresh information to Tribune (who tells D*), so D* can update your receiver.

Hasan, tnx for info.
I have run the figures, Im useing a outside antenna now,at 35',I will improve the signals later when I put up a bit larger antenna and feed it with RG6 quad shield.
according to FOOL, all my sigs are now from 6.9 NM to 55.9
with WOI @ -19.5 2edge
WHO @ 23.3 1edge
KCCI @ 33.4 LOS
KDIN @ 21.6 1 edge
when I hit "after feb 17" these all change
WOI 26.4 LOS
WHO 26.8 los
KCCI 26.1 LOS
KDIN 25 LOS
WHY ARE THEY ALL BETTER? DO THEY INCREASE POWER THEN?
are these not at the present time all on the Alleman tower,are they at diffrent heights & power out?
I tried these at 35', 40' 50' 60' some with not much change.I have 2 towers in yard for ham antennas and I can side mount my antenna for tv.
ON the Direct dish, about not receiving ch 5 now, any idea when I call, who to try and get to?
and will I need to have a UHF only antenna or should I look into a VHF/UHF beam ,say like a Winegard 7084 or equivolent? Chuck

Hasan, tnx for info.
I have run the figures, Im useing a outside antenna now,at 35',I will improve the signals later when I put up a bit larger antenna and feed it with RG6 quad shield.
according to FOOL, all my sigs are now from 6.9 NM to 55.9
with WOI @ -19.5 2edge
WHO @ 23.3 1edge
KCCI @ 33.4 LOS
KDIN @ 21.6 1 edge
when I hit "after feb 17" these all change
WOI 26.4 LOS
WHO 26.8 los
KCCI 26.1 LOS
KDIN 25 LOS
WHY ARE THEY ALL BETTER? DO THEY INCREASE POWER THEN?
are these not at the present time all on the Alleman tower,are they at diffrent heights & power out?
I tried these at 35', 40' 50' 60' some with not much change.I have 2 towers in yard for ham antennas and I can side mount my antenna for tv.
ON the Direct dish, about not receiving ch 5 now, any idea when I call, who to try and get to?
and will I need to have a UHF only antenna or should I look into a VHF/UHF beam ,say like a Winegard 7084 or equivolent? Chuck

You need a combo vhf/uhf for sure. The reason 5, 8, 13 are better is because they are going from UHF to VHF where the path losses are less. There power is also less, but apparently the reduced path loss is making up for this, after the Feb 17 switch.

All of these stations are at Alleman, at "roughly" the same heights. Power after the transition will have changed, mostly (if not all that changed frequency) lower...but again, path losses on VHF are quite a bit lower than on UHF (including your own feedline losses, btw) I'm unaware of any specific height changes at Alleman, but one never knows.

So, go with the larger antenna, if you can mechanically handle it, and make sure it is a VHF/UHF combo. The good news is, it appears you are going to be able to get abc, cbs, pbs and nbc. I don't see you mentioning Ch 17.1 or 23.1...are they too weak? Notice, that both 17.1 and 23.1 are UHF ...which may be instructive.

I will follow with great interest your progress! 73,

WHY ARE THEY ALL BETTER? DO THEY INCREASE POWER THEN?
are these not at the present time all on the Alleman tower,are they at diffrent heights & power out?


To answer this specific query, the Big 4 are spread out throughout Alleman. KCCI's temporary DT is on their tower, WHO's is on the new tower north of town with IPTV, and WOI is on the small tower SE of the big twins. After the transition the W's and IPTV will move back to their regular tower.

Hasan, just a lil more info.
When I started my update this winter, I started with putting in the Samsung 19"tv the utility room.
It immediately received more channels then the previous analog tv and very my clearer and some digitals..this is on the antenna only at 35'
then i changed the 4 bay splitter to a new 2300Mhz splitter and added RG6 cable to 2 of the tv's, the Samsung & the Sony HD on the dish and OTA.
My wife said WOW !!, the channels got even sharper and more channels.
2.1 2.2 5 7 8 8.1 8.2 9 9.1 9.2 11 11.1 11.2 11.3 12 13 13.1 13.2 17 17.1 17.2 23 23.1 28 28.1 28.2 32 32.1 32.2 32.3 34.1 39 48 50.99 undefined w/carrier 56.1
this is 35 channels, this TV is goodone. ha
ok,now the Sony HD 50" connected to a Direct HD box and the OTA.
channels I receive with it are 30 ??
ch 2DD 2 7DD 7 8.1 8.2 9 {9.1 9.2 sometimes} cant always find signal 11.1 11.2 11.3 12DD weak 12weak 13.1 13.2 17.1 17.2 20 28DD 28.1 28.2 32.1 32.2 32.3 50.30 carrier only 51.28 51.29 56.1 sometimes

ok,now the Panasonic Analog connected to the OTA and a Direct Model D-11 box, to go from OTA channels, I have to go to ch 3 then slide switch at top of remote and I get the Direct channels.
ok the lineup of OTA channels {13} this set are 2 weak 5 7 8 9 11 13 17 23 28 32 39 48weak
I borrowed a new Zenith digital box today and tried, when its in line, i get 21 channels
2.1 2.2 8.1 8.2 9.1 9.2 11.1 11.2 11.3 13.1 13.2 17.1 17.2 23.1 28.1 28.2 32.1 32.2 32.3 34.1 56.1
when checking for ch 7.1{55} 5.1 {59} {39}39.1 {47} 48 the sig was reading BAD or nil
OK hasan,can you follow this? my next step is to check jan 26 when ch 8 analog is to drop power and then on transition day {feb 17} soon I will purchase a set to replace the Analog set and when it warms up to replace antenna with a larger antenna and RG6 quad feedline from my inside splitter to the antenna, which is 12 year old rg59 now.
then will see if I need another antenna fotr the CR market if things change or a preamp.
Chuck

tnx for that info BJR,
I have a few questions,, what are the abbreviates you guys are useing?
also,on my digital channels, when I ask for info, it simply says Regular schedule,doesnt have a program idenity like on the non digital channel,what gives, will this change later??
I hate to have to buy a TV guide to find out whats showing.
also i notice that when on a digital channel, the volume control has to be advanced to hear them and a non digital ch. I can have volume control set at 6-7.
sometimes on movies on digital, I have to boost the volume as high as 50 to comfortably hear. any explain?others notice this?
will this change? when i ask the tv statoions, they say, hm no one else complains.
im new so try and help me out.Im coaching several others around here, i think there watching the replys.

... then will see if I need another antenna fotr the CR market if things change or a preamp.
ChuckIf you're gunning for Cedar Rapids as well, be advised that channels 7 and 9 will do digital on their original freqs. after the transition date, but CBS 2 is staying put on RF channel 51. So you will have to deal with VHF, but you won't need to be concerned about any low-VHF band stations coming out of Cedar Rapids as you do for Des Moines, which will have a digital channel 5.

2, 7, 9, 32 and 48 transmit digital from near Walker, about halfway between CR and Waterloo. 28 is closer to you still, in central Benton County.

If you're gunning for Cedar Rapids as well, be advised that channels 7 and 9 will do digital on their original freqs. after the transition date, but CBS 2 is staying put on RF channel 51. So you will have to deal with VHF, but you won't need to be concerned about any low-VHF band stations coming out of Cedar Rapids as you do for Des Moines, which will have a digital channel 5.

2, 7, 9, 32 and 48 transmit digital from near Walker, about halfway between CR and Waterloo. 28 is closer to you still, in central Benton County.

...and th ebig deal about not needing to get anything in the extreme low end of VHF is that they make antennas now that are ained exactly at this market. They are sometimes called 7-up antennas. Basically they just drop the elements that would be used for 2-6. These happen to be the longest elements of a VHF section. Therefore you get a much more compact antenna without losing any performance that you would notice.
...which is why I had hoped channel 5 would stick it out somewhere in the UHF. I know they had to leave 59, but why not take something else UHF? They had a shot. I guess they get to use extremely low power now to transmit, but we need antennas with reception strength all the way down to 5 now, and unfortunately most antennas that do that go all the waydown to 5 also go all the way down to 2, which makes them a little large.

I don't know which stations will go ahead with the Feb 17 change anyway, but i heard on NPR today that a bill passed the House to extend the deadline to June. This bill will need to be acted on by the Senate, of course.

I don't know which stations will go ahead with the Feb 17 change anyway, but i heard on NPR today that a bill passed the House to extend the deadline to June. This bill will need to be acted on by the Senate, of course.

:mad: That's ridiculous. There's been plenty of time and notice. Why would an extra 4 months matter? The last 3 years wasn't enough????

Sorry, rant off. It doesn't even affect me, I'm on cable. :)

Hasan,
I heard this also about June 1 ext.
Hmmmmm,always putting the inevitable off...sounds like Congress!!
It will help a lot,as we cant do much antenna work in this fridgid snowy wx.
I for one,dont care, but do have outside antenna work to perform.
I heard this on FOX,,{fair & balanced} haaha equal time, :}
I hope the tv station might start talking on the DTV issues for those that dont live under the umbrella of Alleman..
Rural folks need to understand what a good grade of RG 6 quad shield and Compression fittings will do for there signal and also larger yagis, and if there useing splitters, get a better splitter.
they seem to only talk about RABBIT EARS !
Are you still in the symphony Hasan?
Chuck, W0SSR

Hasan,
I heard this also about June 1 ext.
Hmmmmm,always putting the inevitable off...sounds like Congress!!
It will help a lot,as we cant do much antenna work in this fridgid snowy wx.
I for one,dont care, but do have outside antenna work to perform.
I heard this on FOX,,{fair & balanced} haaha equal time, :}
I hope the tv station might start talking on the DTV issues for those that dont live under the umbrella of Alleman..
Rural folks need to understand what a good grade of RG 6 quad shield and Compression fittings will do for there signal and also larger yagis, and if there useing splitters, get a better splitter.
they seem to only talk about RABBIT EARS !
Are you still in the symphony Hasan?
Chuck, W0SSR

Hi Chuck, you must be confusing me with Jerry, K0CQ, as he is the classical musician. I can't play a kazoo.:)

A good yagi/lp and a low noise antenna mounted preamp is the right way to do fringe area TV. Most consumers have forgotten that when we were young, EVERYONE had an outside antenna, and many of us had TOWERS.

It's downright embarrassing to listen to people whine because they can't receive a TV signal with a 10% efficient antenna system. TV antennas belong outdoors...anything else is a limp-along compromise, and assorted varieties of rabbit ears are among the worst of compromises.

Moving the mandatory digital switch over (if it happens), does not mean that some stations won't do it earlier than required...in most cases it saves them money.

One stated reason for the delay is the lack of availability of the digital converter boxes. Many retailers have had a hard time keeping them in stock, and now they (government) have run out of money for the $40 coupons.

Our local outlet (Boone Wal-Mart) has sold nearly 2300 boxes since the inception of the program.

:mad: That's ridiculous. There's been plenty of time and notice. Why would an extra 4 months matter? The last 3 years wasn't enough????

Sorry, rant off. It doesn't even affect me, I'm on cable. :)It's actually the Senate which passed it. The House is working on its own version but isn't expected to vote on it until Wednesday, and some members of the minority party are still vocal against delaying the date. But it's expected to pass, after which it will need to be reconciled with the Senate version before it goes to the president.

By that time, there'll be just 19 or 20 days left until the original date, at most. Cancelling and trying to reschedule the necessary tower/transmitter crew work on such short notice can't be cheap. I would think it would lead to several different shutdown dates rather than at most a day or two of inconvenience we'd face Feb. 17 and 18 if Congress would just leave the date alone.

Broadcasting & Cable has an article on the pending House vote here:
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/162860-House_Vote_On_DTV_Delay_Bill_Probably_Not_Until_Wednesday.ph p

Waiting and waiting for better HD channels from MediaCom and today I've found they have, in their infinite capacity to always disappoint given us in the Des Moines market

QVC on channel 814

Wow, thanks so much. /sarcasm

BREAKING NEWS: KDSM files for STA to terminate analog on February 17, along with KGAN in Cedar Rapids.

Text from the STA application (sorry it's all caps; I don't have time to re-type it):

"STATION KDSM-TV, DES MOINES, IOWA, HEREBY NOTIFIES THE COMMISSION OF ITS INTENT TO PERMANENTLY TERMINATE ANALOG OPERATIONS FEBRUARY 17, 2009 TO PREPARE FOR FULL, POST-TRANSITION DIGITAL-ONLY OPERATIONS ON ITS POST-TRANSITION CHANNEL. ALTHOUGH THE DTV TRANSITION DATE HAS NOT YET BEEN EXTENDED, THIS TERMINATION NOTIFICATION IS BEING PROVIDED OUT OF AN ABUNDANCE OF CAUTION. THIS AUTHORITY IS SOUGHT PURSUANT TO THE THIRD PERIODIC DTV REVIEW REPORT AND ORDER, 23 FCC RCD 2994 (2007). THE INSTANT REQUEST MEETS THE CRITERIA SET FORTH BY THE COMMISSION IN THAT (1) THE TERMINATION OF OPERATIONS IS DIRECTLY RELATED TO THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE STATION'S FULL ALLOTTED POST-TRANSITION DIGITAL FACILITIES AND ENSURES THAT THE STATION WILL BE ABLE TO MEET THE TRANSITION DEADLINE, AND (2) THE LICENSEE WILL COMPLY WITH THE VIEWER NOTIFICATION REQUIREMENTS ESTABLISHED BY THE COMMISSION. IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PROVISIONS OF THE THIRD PERIODIC REVIEW REPORT AND ORDER, THE STATION INTENDS TO AIR VIEWER NOTIFICATIONS CONCERNING ITS EARLY ANALOG SERVICE TERMINATION, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, INFORMATION ON HOW VIEWERS CAN CONTINUE TO RECEIVE THE STATION'S SIGNAL."

(Trip in VA says nearly the whole Sinclair group is filing similar STA requests.)

I See Dish Network is uplinking to their Ciel 2 Sat that has arrived at it's final location. Hopefully we will see it turned on very soon. It is to replace Failing Sat E5 in the 129W slot.

Ron

Has anyone heard if, in light of the current legislative action in DC, channels 5, 8 and 13 are going to move from their current UHF frequency assignment to their VHF assignments as scheduled on Feb 17?

I don't think the bill in question will have any direct impact on our local stations doing the frequency switch, or for that matter, going all digital, as the bill allows the decision to drop analog and go ahead as planned, if the local stations choose to do so.

Has anyone heard if, in light of the current legislative action in DC, channels 5, 8 and 13 are going to move from their current UHF frequency assignment to their VHF assignments as scheduled on Feb 17?

I don't think the bill in question will have any direct impact on our local stations doing the frequency switch, or for that matter, going all digital, as the bill allows the decision to drop analog and go ahead as planned, if the local stations choose to do so.I haven't had time to check the bill as written, but some kind of notice would be necessary to shut a station down early. The problem is, "early" means "before Feb. 17" right now, but could mean "before June 12" next week if this bill passes. That's why, for planning purposes, a lot of stations are filing these pre-emptive notices "due to uncertainty about the transition date," or "out of an abundance of caution," because it's going to be costly to change plans when there's only about two weeks to go and Congress passes this bill.

As of yet I haven't seen such a notice from 5, 8, or 13. KDSM 17 is the only Des Moines station to have filed one yet (as of noon today). In Eastern Iowa, KCRG, KGAN and KWWL have filed such forms, along with dozens of stations nationwide.

(EDIT: KCCI 8 has a "notice of suspension" on file, but it's just for their late-January analog power reduction, which they had to do in order to convert part of their analog transmitter to digital so it can operate on channel 8.)

Here is an email from Director of Engineering and Technology at Iowa Public Television

Hi Garrett,

IPTV will continue to operate analog services until the mandated analog shutoff date whether that is February 17, 2009 or the proposed June 12, 2009. There is indeed an added cost to maintaining two operations and our costs are amplified due to the fact that we have 9 full powered facilities statewide that are each operating two transmitters. Based on my experience doing DTV information sessions statewide (and out of state, I was just in Albert Lea on Tuesday) there are a great many people that rely on over the air television reception that are not ready. We think IPTV is better serving the viewer and communities that rely on us by continuing to operate analog for as long as possible to provide the most opportunity for people to get ready and deal with any reception issues. We recognize that even if we delay until June, we will still deal with the procrastinators but we would rather have them scrambling on their roofs checking antennas and cables in June rather than February.

We do not plan on being the night light station because we cannot do it statewide due to FCC restrictions.

Bill

Sounds like potentially BIG trouble for KWQC in Davenport ... you might want to let them know.

Thanks for the IPTV notice, much appreciated!

What IPTV is really saying is they want viewers to be able to see their next donation drive.

What IPTV is really saying is they want viewers to be able to see their next donation drive.

Ya, LOL, I really do not see the point in keeping people who are DTV ready, with tv for another 4 months.... Pointless, it is super confusion to people who will loose many channels to digital only on the 17th....

Wonder if we'll see stations that delay transition apply to run at half power on either digital, analog or both, citing financial hardship? (though if they were that hard up, they'd be shutting analog on 2/17)

For what it's worth:

A viewer in the Omaha-Lincoln, NE thread says he saw a 30-second notice on KLKN in Lincoln, indicating they'll be shutting off analog on the original deadline.

KLKN is owned by Phil Lombardo's broadcast group, which also owns WOI, WHBF in Rock Island and KCAU in Sioux City.

As of yet, Lombardo's stations have not shown up on the FCC website as going silent, but I'll keep watching.

Wonder if we'll see stations that delay transition apply to run at half power on either digital, analog or both, citing financial hardship? (though if they were that hard up, they'd be shutting analog on 2/17)We already know KDMI is getting an extension until August to build its final facility, and that is based on hardship. There are many power reductions, mostly on analog, but most of those are because existing transmitters are being converted to digital or to another channel, and the whole process can't be done in just one night.

For instance, KCCI has already cut its analog power so that it could convert part of its analog channel 8 transmitter to digital. Two Eastern Iowa stations, KWWL and KCRG, have done likewise. To go back to full power analog would require them to convert that already converted cabinet back to analog and then back to digital again on the 12th of June (assuming the date change passes). It's not happening.

Meanwhile Davenport's KWQC, which I mentioned earlier, had to cut its digital power because it's moving from 56 to 36 and had to start the work early, converting half its transmitter from 56 to 36 so that on the 17th, they can shut off 56 and turn on 36 at half-power. Then they are to convert the other cabinet to 36 and run full-power digital about a month or so after the transition. Problem is, IPTV is operating KQIN analog on 36 and may block any such February move by KWQC even if it wants to.

Welcome to the dizzying digital world.

Wonder if we'll see stations that delay transition apply to run at half power on either digital, analog or both, citing financial hardship? (though if they were that hard up, they'd be shutting analog on 2/17)

:rolleyes:Answering my own quote, hope that's allowed here...Anyway, for idle speculation, I could see IPTV applying to go half power on analog during the interim, or dramatically cutting broadcast hours for analog. Cutting back to a 7a -11p broadcast day M -F, and 9a - 10p weekends would save some serious juice for hungry U's.

Granted, xmtrs are happier when they're fed 24/7, but if the short b-cast days are just for analog, there's no long-term harm done.

JUST ANNOUNCED: Transmitter (cabinet*) Demolition Derby at the Iowa State Fair!! Harris v. Continental v. RCA v. B-E, et al... Could put the cabinets over old riding lawn mowers. But for operator safety, might be best towed behind old junker sub-compacts as in the following:

:eek:British Caravan Racing (http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=en-US&vid=20144c21-1fd4-4913-93f6-419011d009bb):eek:

*messy transformers and such wouldn't be a good idea

JUST IN THIS MORNING: WHO, KCWI file with FCC, seek to end analog on time Feb. 17.

Sources: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1292945&Service=TV&Form_id=911&Facility_id=66221
And: http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/forms/prod/prefill_and_display.pl?Application_id=1293185&Service=TV&Form_id=910&Facility_id=51502

KDSM has already filed a similar request.

New this morning: Two of WOI-TV's sister stations, KCAU and KLKN, have filed to shut off analog on Feb. 17. WOI-TV itself hasn't shown up yet, but I suspect it will show up very soon.

New this morning: Two of WOI-TV's sister stations, KCAU and KLKN, have filed to shut off analog on Feb. 17. WOI-TV itself hasn't shown up yet, but I suspect it will show up very soon.

The RabbitEars site has WOI switching on the 17th.

The RabbitEars site has WOI switching on the 17th.

I do (www.rabbitears.info/termlist.php)?

(Ignore what the Digital Transitional Reports say, if that's what you are referring to; they assume no delay of the transition date and too much work to go through and hand-modify each one)

- Trip

I do (www.rabbitears.info/termlist.php)?

(Ignore what the Digital Transitional Reports say, if that's what you are referring to; they assume no delay of the transition date and too much work to go through and hand-modify each one)

- Trip

That's a good one! Your site is getting a LOT of references, and was used to come to the same conclusion that I had...so it may not be the first "attribution" to Rabbit Ears that has to be "qualified". Thanks for the info.:)

During Lost tonight, I saw a promo for next week's episode at a "special time" after Iowa State basketball.

Great. This means that Lost will be in crappy SD. Or does WOI have HD delay capabilities now? (stifles belly laugh)

Just did a post-midnight search of FCC records ... nothing new this morning. Still NBC, Fox and CW stations cutting off on-time.

Cedar Rapids, on the other hand, just had the last of the Big Four network affiliates filing for a 2-17-09 cutoff. Viewers there without tuners had better get their boxes now.

KCCI announced last night on the 10PM news that they will keep the analog signal going until the new cutoff date.

And it's also posted on the KCCI website.

http://www.kcci.com/news/18649329/detail.html

They are staying on until June 12. Des Moines will have at least two transition dates.

I was wondering, with this talk of WOI-DT moving back to Lo-VHF, would it be possible (even if not advised) to remove the longer elements on the back of a VHF antenna to make it physically smaller while still allowing reception of VHF Ch5?

I realize there is some balance with Yagi antennas, and the rear element is almost as important as the dipole.

If I'm not going to ever need to receive VHF channel 2 where I live, could I remove those longer elements from a "regular" (not logrithmic) VHF/UHF antenna in the interests of saving space?

(sorry, I didn't realize I jumped thought there)

I was *really* hoping to take advantage of the smaller "7-up" antennas currently available, but WOI foiled that. WOI is also my biggest concern at this point, since their real channel is WAY up at 59 and pushing the signal with a paltry < 15kW right now, I have no idea what I can expect once they cut over to VHF 5 with the same signal (or less).

I have an OTA Sony HD 250 DVR with an EPG (electronic programming guide) that populates via analog TVGOS data sent out by IPTV.

With IPTV analog staying on board until June, I'm hoping the HD DVR just received a stay of execution. Without the analog signal populating the EPG, its a paperweight.

I am 100% OTA and cant weight for the extra power to be devoted to digital and HD broadcasting. I just wish there were subscriptionless OTA HD DVR options for after the digital switch.

I have an OTA Sony HD 250 DVR with an EPG (electronic programming guide) that populates via analog TVGOS data sent out by IPTV.

With IPTV analog staying on board until June, I'm hoping the HD DVR just received a stay of execution. Without the analog signal populating the EPG, its a paperweight.

I am 100% OTA and cant weight for the extra power to be devoted to digital and HD broadcasting. I just wish there were subscriptionless OTA HD DVR options for after the digital switch.

I own one also (HDD 500), and mine updates via Digital CBS OTA or via Mediacom clear QAM.

Their is another no fee OTA HD DVR (EchoStar TR-50).

WOI also announced on there 10 pm news that they are delaying to the 12th, I find it funny how they and kcci are saying they are complying for the new federal mandate.
I ask what mandate.
All government did was push back the deadline for mandatory switch, the wording requiring they to hold station to keep broadcasting analog was removed.

In the 10 pm news they even said that people will have to scan twice. (d'oh)
What I dont understand is why they would want to voluntarily create all this confusion for those who supposedly aren't prepared for the transition and dont understand all the new tech for dtv.
Bottom like all I have to say is "Idiots" (I fell better now)
sorry for ranting I needed to get this off my chest, plus the wife was sick of hearing it :)

I was wondering, with this talk of WOI-DT moving back to Lo-VHF, would it be possible (even if not advised) to remove the longer elements on the back of a VHF antenna to make it physically smaller while still allowing reception of VHF Ch5?

I realize there is some balance with Yagi antennas, and the rear element is almost as important as the dipole.

If I'm not going to ever need to receive VHF channel 2 where I live, could I remove those longer elements from a "regular" (not logrithmic) VHF/UHF antenna in the interests of saving space?

(sorry, I didn't realize I jumped thought there)

I was *really* hoping to take advantage of the smaller "7-up" antennas currently available, but WOI foiled that. WOI is also my biggest concern at this point, since their real channel is WAY up at 59 and pushing the signal with a paltry < 15kW right now, I have no idea what I can expect once they cut over to VHF 5 with the same signal (or less).

No...nearly all TV antennas are log-cell based. This means that no one element is responsible for a given range. In fact, it is typically 3 elements fully current populated at a time, so if you remove one of them, the gain for that channel group will drop precipitously.

You cannot remove elements in a log-cell without impacting a wide frequency segment, so I would drop the idea.

As far as predicted signal strength after the switch for channel 5 goes, run over to tvfool.com and you can see a pre/post signal level analysis. My repeated runs at various central Iowa locations show that WOI will be considerably stronger after the switch than it is now.

(this is NOT to recommend removing longer elements...you're going to need them for WOI, stronger or not)

As far as predicted signal strength after the switch for channel 5 goes, run over to tvfool.com and you can see a pre/post signal level analysis. My repeated runs at various central Iowa locations show that WOI will be considerably stronger after the switch than it is now.

TVFool is a great resource, but you have to watch out with low-VHF like channel 5. There's so much extra noise in that band that even if it's the strongest signal TV Fool shows, it still may not be reliable. I'm experiencing this first-hand.

Hopefully it will work out for you, just wanted to point that out.

- Trip

TVFool is a great resource, but you have to watch out with low-VHF like channel 5. There's so much extra noise in that band that even if it's the strongest signal TV Fool shows, it still may not be reliable. I'm experiencing this first-hand.

Hopefully it will work out for you, just wanted to point that out.

- Trip

Another thing to consider is that most lo-vhf antennas have very low gain as compared to hi-vhf and, of course, uhf. The predicted increase in signal strength is so dramatic in this case (> 20 dB), that I think, most people will see an improved signal.

My biggest worry is that people using indoor antennas that were marginally acceptable on UHF, are going to find the very same indoor antennas are going to be VERY poor performers on VHF, especially considering they will have near zero resistance to multi-path. Add to that, the increased noise from in-house consumer electronics (as you alluded to above), and it could get dicey.

At this point, we don't have anything to reference locally, as WOI has indicated they are retaining analog (and therefore staying on low power UHF for digital) until June 12. I was looking forward to evaluating assorted indoor antennas with the new signal...now I can put that off until June. (and the associated consumer complaints associated with it):)

Isn't WOI-DT 59 at 1000 kW? I'd hardly call that low power...

- Trip

Isn't WOI-DT 59 at 1000 kW? I'd hardly call that low power...

- Trip

I've seen three power levels posted in various places. Based on how I see it being received I think the higher power level you reference is probably correct. Thanks for the correction. (I'd hate to have their power bill!):)

Having 1000kW way up on UHF 59 isn't anything to sneeze at, but that much power doesn't do nearly as much as it does in the VHF band, or even lower on the UHF band.

For instance the IPTV tower for Waterloo (KRIN) was/is pushing nearly 5000 kW on their Analogue side, and that was on UHF 32. Even if they stay at 32 and follow the "20%" suggestion would take them down to 1000kW.

While I realize that it is not a linear progression in either direction when comparing channel frequency to transmitter power, there is a general trend for more power being needed at higher frequencies to transmit to the same effective area.

It's hard to believe that WOI will be able to cover the same area with only 13kW of power when they are back on VHF-5 utilizing digital. Wild how some of this stuff works....

Heh, WOI analogue was getting along fine using only 100kW of power (storms notwithstanding).

No...nearly all TV antennas are log-cell based. This means that no one element is responsible for a given range. In fact, it is typically 3 elements fully current populated at a time, so if you remove one of them, the gain for that channel group will drop precipitously.

You cannot remove elements in a log-cell without impacting a wide frequency segment, so I would drop the idea.

As far as predicted signal strength after the switch for channel 5 goes, run over to tvfool.com and you can see a pre/post signal level analysis. My repeated runs at various central Iowa locations show that WOI will be considerably stronger after the switch than it is now.

(this is NOT to recommend removing longer elements...you're going to need them for WOI, stronger or not)
Thanks for shooting me down so quickly. I knew there was a simple need to keep me from mangling my antenna, but the unknown possibility kept nagging me.

Thanks for shooting me down so quickly. I knew there was a simple need to keep me from mangling my antenna, but the unknown possibility kept nagging me.

No intention of shooting you down, just wanted to prevent you from ruining a good antenna :)

Having 1000kW way up on UHF 59 isn't anything to sneeze at, but that much power doesn't do nearly as much as it does in the VHF band, or even lower on the UHF band.

In fairness, stations don't get that much power on VHF (160 kW at 305m and 30 kW at 610m for channels 7-13, 45 kW at 305m and 10 kW at 610m on channels 2-6), though your point is well-taken. 1000 kW on channel 14 will do more than 1000 kW on channel 59.

For instance the IPTV tower for Waterloo (KRIN) was/is pushing nearly 5000 kW on their Analogue side, and that was on UHF 32. Even if they stay at 32 and follow the "20%" suggestion would take them down to 1000kW.

While I realize that it is not a linear progression in either direction when comparing channel frequency to transmitter power, there is a general trend for more power being needed at higher frequencies to transmit to the same effective area.

Just keep in mind that digital signals don't require as much power as analogs do to cover the same area.

First of all, analog power is measured differently than digital power. Analog power uses peak (when the video signal is black) whereas digital power uses the average power. An engineer in another thread mentioned that if you multiply the digital power by 1.69, you get roughly the analog power.

Second, because digital is simply a set of 1s and 0s, less power is needed to get the waves above/below the threshold determining what's a zero versus a one.

It's hard to believe that WOI will be able to cover the same area with only 13kW of power when they are back on VHF-5 utilizing digital. Wild how some of this stuff works....

Heh, WOI analogue was getting along fine using only 100kW of power (storms notwithstanding).

I wish you the best of luck with WOI-DT on 5. I have a digital signal on channel 3 in my area. "Useless" is probably too harsh a word during the winter when there's no e-skip or thunderstorms, but it is too lenient a word during the summer.

- Trip

I see on WOI tv's website they are going with the June 12 date for transition. That means KCCI, WOI, and possibly IPTV are waiting and the rest will switch FEB 17. I also saw somewhere that some time around FEB 17 that MY network stations are going HD. They don't have a lot of programming for HD though. WHO doing the transition on FEB 17 will help that if KDMI can get their digital transmitter.

KCWI is waiting until June, too, according to this Des Moines Register article:

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090206/LIFE/902060345/1039

(Of course, it also says KDMI will keep its analog signal on until June -- KDMI never had an analog signal!)

I see on WOI tv's website they are going with the June 12 date for transition. That means KCCI, WOI, and possibly IPTV are waiting and the rest will switch FEB 17. I also saw somewhere that some time around FEB 17 that MY network stations are going HD. They don't have a lot of programming for HD though. WHO doing the transition on FEB 17 will help that if KDMI can get their digital transmitter.For what it's worth, the Quad City Times is reporting that WQAD has had a change of heart and is now delaying analog shutoff until June 12. WQAD is a sister station of WHO-TV in Des Moines, so it remains to be seen if this is a chain decision or just a local one.

But unlike WHO, WQAD isn't changing channels and will continue to use UHF channel 38 after the transition, so they don't have as much work to reschedule.

Source: http://www.qctimes.com/articles/2009/02/06/news/business/doc498cdd34e50e2787384894.txt

(Link originally posted by Jon Ellis in the Davenport thread.)

I believe MyNetwork is already HD when they have HD programming. However, it is not HD in Des Moines because they actually share the KDMI digital signal with KCWI until KCWI's channel 23 transmitter goes digital, so CW gets the HD and My doesn't. Assuming KCWI stays analog until June 12, it'll be that way until at least then, if not longer since KDMI says its final digital facility may be delayed until August.

...As far as predicted signal strength after the switch for channel 5 goes, run over to tvfool.com and you can see a pre/post signal level analysis. My repeated runs at various central Iowa locations show that WOI will be considerably stronger after the switch than it is now.


I do see the large drop-off that occurs when you compare WOI-DT's current signal strength with any of the other OTA signals here in central Iowa.

There was mention of the tower for WOI pushing 1000kW on WOI-59. Is the FCC database out-of-date? Here is what I brought up today:

WOI-TV
5 (LIC)
ERP 100. kW
HAAT 564. m

WOI-DT
5 (CP)
ERP 11.5 kW
HAAT 566. m

WOI-DS
59 (STA)
ERP 0.5 kW
HAAT 311. m

The lower HAAT, just over half the height of the analogue, and the pitiful ERP of 0.5kW. How far could 500watts push a signal on UHF 59?

The other OTA signal that high up in our area is KDIN-DT on UHF 50. The ERP is 966kW, with HAAT of 593. m

I get a great signal with just rabbit ears for this station. WOI is more touchy, but if the FCC signal is accurate (heck even if they are under reporting it by 100x that would only bring it up to 50kW)? If the signal is really that low and that high up on the spectrum, no wonder WOI is such a pain to pick up. :)

I do apologize if this has been covered extensively in earlier pages of this forum thread. I went back a few, but didn't find anything that jumped out at me.

I've seen others mention that the DT license for WOI has been amended, bumped from 11.5 to 13+ kW once they cut back to VHF5 with the digital signal.

With hasan's suggetion, I won't be mutilating my antenna any time soon.

Much as I am annoyed with the delay just legislated for the DTV cutover, you cannot deny how much nicer it will be to stand on the roof tweaking in June/July instead of Feb!

I do see the large drop-off that occurs when you compare WOI-DT's current signal strength with any of the other OTA signals here in central Iowa.

There was mention of the tower for WOI pushing 1000kW on WOI-59. Is the FCC database out-of-date? Here is what I brought up today:

WOI-TV
5 (LIC)
ERP 100. kW
HAAT 564. m

WOI-DT
5 (CP)
ERP 11.5 kW
HAAT 566. m

WOI-DS
59 (STA)
ERP 0.5 kW
HAAT 311. m

The lower HAAT, just over half the height of the analogue, and the pitiful ERP of 0.5kW. How far could 500watts push a signal on UHF 59?

The other OTA signal that high up in our area is KDIN-DT on UHF 50. The ERP is 966kW, with HAAT of 593. m

I get a great signal with just rabbit ears for this station. WOI is more touchy, but if the FCC signal is accurate (heck even if they are under reporting it by 100x that would only bring it up to 50kW)? If the signal is really that low and that high up on the spectrum, no wonder WOI is such a pain to pick up. :)

I do apologize if this has been covered extensively in earlier pages of this forum thread. I went back a few, but didn't find anything that jumped out at me.

I've seen others mention that the DT license for WOI has been amended, bumped from 11.5 to 13+ kW once they cut back to VHF5 with the digital signal.

With hasan's suggetion, I won't be mutilating my antenna any time soon.

Much as I am annoyed with the delay just legislated for the DTV cutover, you cannot deny how much nicer it will be to stand on the roof tweaking in June/July instead of Feb!

I am pretty sure they are broadcasting at 1MW on 59 right now. The data that seems to be stuck on the fcc website was probably right when nobody except those who could literally see the tower could receive the signal. They increased the power quite a while ago. I could ask someone I know at WOI to get the exact details, but rest assured it comes in ALOT better than the numbers on the fcc suggest it would.

They're doing 1000 kW. It's an error in the FCC database; if you dig into it you'll find they filed a license application a few years ago for the 1000 kW power level that was apparently never approved, so when they filed for the channel 5 permit, they called it a modification from channel 59 to channel 5 instead of a new permit.

Multiple stations have this exact same problem with their FCC records. I'm pretty sure it's the FCC's fault too.

- Trip

Thanks much for the clarification. I didn't think 500watts could push HD to me 23 miles away, even if LOS. :)

For those of you who are wondering, the FCC has published a list of stations who have indicated they will cut over on the original deadline:

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-221A5.pdf

Des Moines-Ames starts on page 12; the Ion station, which is waiting the extra four months to do its flash-cut, is on page 13.

But I'll save you some time: Only KDSM and WHO are listed as making the 2/17 switch. KDSM has agreed to stay on analog temporarily as a "nightlight" station but will cease normal programming on analog. The remaining stations are waiting until June 12.

Just in today:

WHO and KDSM are good to go with a Feb. 17 cutoff.

The FCC has just published a list of stations (.pdf (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-7A2.pdf)) which it wants to deny a Feb. 17 cutoff. The two Des Moines stations are not on that list.

"Any station that was listed in Appendix A to the February 17, 2009 Termination List Public Notice, DA 09-221, and is not listed in the Appendix to this PN (a .pdf of the actual notice is here (http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-09-7A1.pdf)), is expected to proceed with termination of its analog service on that date, subject to the conditions previously described in the February 5th Public Notice."

I saw 13 cut out on NTSC at midnight, and 17 started airing the nightlight. 13 came back as ATSC around 2:09, and 19 went dark around 2:33 AM.

I for one welcome this reduction in RF flux. :)

As 17 wasn't planing on switching digital to RF 17, will we see KDSM Fox 16 branding eventually?

Howdy, Gals and Fellers

Just a friendly reminder to re-scan this AM if ya want TV on Ch 13.

Jack

PS: Fox is still in analogue instructing peeps what to do.

Me thinkest NBC 13 WHO is having issues with its new digital freq.
13-1 old pre 2/18 came in 100%.
Post 2/18 nada 13-1.
13-2 "is" coming in strong, however.
13-1 is dark.
(So many wires to switch and pull. Be careful WHO...)

Oh... Just popped in @ 9:27-ish am. (thumbs up)

Have to give it to WHO. At least THEY stuck with the original plot.
I give them a lot of respect.

Interesting...
WOI-2 schedule lists such shows as LEAVE IT TO BEAVER, EMERGENCY, AL HITCHCOCK.
Like a mini Nick At Nite.
I can't get WOI DT to come in (poor sig), so I wonder if they are actually transmitting
what the schedule displays???
If they are... GREAT!
(will need to tweak my antenna)

I always have said if going to DT allows these local digital stations
to transmit classic movies, retro sitcom or other programming on secondary, then possibly
the major networks will give those cable and satellite co's a run for their money.
Why pay when its free???
Imagine MSNBC on DT # 2 or 3 or 4...
(ota DT and the possibilities... this is just the beginning)

Howdy Sportage,

Wasn't that a sick feeling this AM when 13 was gone? Dagnabit I thought I had enough antenna on the roof to handle it and there it was, 'weak signal' bouncing around my screen.

I've tried recording Alfred Hitchcock and Night Gallery in the wee hours from WOI-2 and get infomercials. They don't answer my Email's.

Jack

The schedules for WOI-DT2 are not completely correct. They seem to be picking and choosing the feed they use and depending on the feed, the schedule is correct or may be off by hours. I have it set to record the Hitchcock stuff but it airs 3 hours earlier than the scheduled time.

They also have frequent problems with their feed resulting in complete drop out of the picture and massive amount of pixillation. It seems to come and go but is not caused by their signal to the home but rather a problem with their feed from the satellite. You can tell because when they are having problems their logo on the screen is never affected.

An email from about a month ago them indicated that they knew of the scheduling and feed problems and that they were working on it. They have corrected some of the scheduling error but some still remain.

A copy of my email and their response is below.

Subject: Re: WOI DT 2 Program schedule
Date: Friday, January 9, 2009 9:24:42 AM

Good morning,

We are currently on an emergency RTN feed due to transmission problems at RTN. When we get our regular RTN feed back, the schedule will match. The transmission problems are also showing up as picture freezes and dropouts. RTN is working just as quickly as possible to restore normal operation and appreciate your patience.

Dennis


----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 8:12 AM
Subject: WOI DT 2 Program schedule

The program schedule for DT-2 (RTN) on you web site, titantv and zap2it is one hour off. currently (8am) all of the schedules show Leave it to Beaver as scheduled but the station is showing Daytime which the schedules show airing at 9am.

Also there were severe picture problems lat night. The picture would disapper and break up frequently. The RTN5 logo was also not affected so it must have been a problem with your downlink of the RTN signal as your DT signal (as evidenced by the RTN logo not being affected) was fine.

Howdy dgschoel,

Thank you for such a gracious explanation of the problems on RTN. I'm pleased to hear that the matter will be resolved.

Jack

Why pay when its free???
Imagine MSNBC on DT # 2 or 3 or 4...
(ota DT and the possibilities... this is just the beginning)

The cable networks get paid by the cable companies for carriage. The cable networks will not want to lose that revenue stream. You will most likely never see MSNBC on a subchannel.

- Trip

One piece of good information is that after NBC's (13.1) move from 19 to 13 RF, the signal quality is very good (as it was before). I was getting 100% before the switch, and am still getting 100%. That's not to say they aren't weaker in terms of RF signal level, as predicted, just that the threshold for 100% signal quality was not crossed. This is all with outdoor antennas. I did notice a small decrease on a flat-panel rf preamplified indoor antenna in an upstairs bedroom.

It took about 45 minutes to rescan two digital converted boxes, 3 hdtv's, and 3 D* HD-DVRs so they could see NBC on the new RF channel.

Well, no, maybe no msnbc on a sub channel, but more than likely something very close to. After all, cbs, abc and nbc already have the ability intacked, so why not?
Its not like they are running out of a garage. They have all the ability of CNN, except now the access to free open DT local sub channels.
Don’t think for a minute they don’t see the possibilities.
Heck... they now have x number of sub channels to rake in those advertising dollars.
Why bloat the subs with just local weather maps.
The nationals have always been at the mercy of cable and satellite, to carry their feeds.
Now with DT, the game plan will change. And for the better.

ABC had a news subchannel at one time. It's now only on broadband and digital cable.

I don't expect to see anything too drastic on subchannels.

- Trip

it's a case of "follow the money." Unless the subs are scrambled will there be anything resembling a CNN or ESPN cable like net. Got to have both revenue streams, ads and subscriptions. Recent Time cover story about newspapers' woes may apply to all forms of mass media someday.

I was starting to get nervous when repeated re-scans didn't pick up WHO, but after I got home frm wrk this afternoon the rescan worked like a charm!

I too can't wait for the instability issues with WOI-2(RTN) to clear up. My mother-IL was over recently (doesn't have cable) and was shocked to see Magnum PI (one of her favorite shows during its run) in prime time again, OTA. RTN has become the only non-PBS channel I watch with any regularity.

Howdy, Gals and Fellers

Just a friendly reminder to re-scan this AM if ya want TV on Ch 13.

Jack

PS: Fox is still in analogue instructing peeps what to do.

We had quite a few calls for help at work today (American). I think most people understood that analog 13 was gone but didn't understand that they needed to re-scan for the digital too.

It took about 45 minutes to rescan two digital converted boxes, 3 hdtv's, and 3 D* HD-DVRs so they could see NBC on the new RF channel.

Any issues on your other sub channels? I'm trying to figure out my HR20. After the rescan, I can't pick up some things. If I go to the signal strength meter, I'm nearly perfect on all channels. But when I go to actually view the channels, I get the "Searching for signal on the off-air tuner..." My problem stations are:

13-2, 17-2, 23-1

I've likely missed a vital piece of info that would explain this, but wanted to check.

It has been frustrating trying to convince my TiVo where WHO and KDSM are. I think I've removed the 13/RF 19, but 13/RF 13 has no guide data, so I can't fix the season passes that I assume will still somehow be linked to RF 19. They would still record black.

Even stranger, the basketball-delayed American Idol my wife wanted recorded was being recorded on 17/RF 17. WTF? KDSM-DT has never been on RF 17, yet that's suddenly where my TiVo thought it was. I managed to get a manual recording (once again, no guide data) on 17/RF 16, which is where KDSM-DT has been all along pre-transition, and was my understanding that it was staying there.

The cable networks get paid by the cable companies for carriage. The cable networks will not want to lose that revenue stream. You will most likely never see MSNBC on a subchannel.

In fact, it might go the other way. The companies that own the broadcast networks also own cable/satellite channels, and may eventually decide to cut back network programming, if not shut it down completely. Then they wouldn't have to deal with affiliates as the middle-man. In the interim, look for more reruns, reality shows, and special events programming. There may be a day when the networks only exist for news, sports, and talk shows.

Networks are already making cutbacks...for example, NBC's decision to put Leno on at 10ET/9CT M-F essentially means they have to produce five hours less scripted programming per week. And "My Network TV" isn't referring to its business as a "network" anymore (though its still in the name). They're cutting one night a week and putting reruns or movies on four more nights, leaving just one night of original programming (WWE on Fridays). And ION hasn't had original prime-time programming in years.

Any issues on your other sub channels? I'm trying to figure out my HR20. After the rescan, I can't pick up some things. If I go to the signal strength meter, I'm nearly perfect on all channels. But when I go to actually view the channels, I get the "Searching for signal on the off-air tuner..." My problem stations are:

13-2, 17-2, 23-1

I've likely missed a vital piece of info that would explain this, but wanted to check.

Re-do your OTA setup in the HR20 from scratch (initial setup), and they should come back. I did that on all my boxes, including the HR20-100 and it worked fine.(HR20-100, HR20-700, HR21-200/AM21, H20/AM21)

Edit:

Scratch that...refer to my other post. I did the signal checks, but didn't have time to look at every channel. When the new channel worked (13), I didn't check every old channel. Of course, they messed up several of the old channels...sorry for the mistake...I didn't even consider that they would break what already was working.

Re-do your OTA setup in the HR20 from scratch (initial setup), and they should come back. I did that on all my boxes, including the HR20-100 and it worked fine.(HR20-100, HR20-700, HR21-200/AM21, H20/AM21)

I did this too but 13-2 still doesn't come in, even though 13-1 does.

Keep in mind that for 23-1, two of them will show up. You'll need to use the one labeled "KDMIDT2" instead of the one labeled "KCWIDT."

Any issues on your other sub channels? I'm trying to figure out my HR20. After the rescan, I can't pick up some things. If I go to the signal strength meter, I'm nearly perfect on all channels. But when I go to actually view the channels, I get the "Searching for signal on the off-air tuner..." My problem stations are:

13-2, 17-2, 23-1

I've likely missed a vital piece of info that would explain this, but wanted to check.

You didn't miss anything....I was doing 7 different sets, and failed to look at all channels on all 7.
Here's my post to the proper dbstalk forum where the data is being submitted to D*

============================================================ ==
What receivers are affected: HR20-100, HR20-700, HR21-200/AM21, H21-200/AM21

# What market you're in: Des Moines, IA

# What zip code you're using to get guide data: 50212

# What channels are affected: 13-2, 17-2, 23-1

# What's happening currently: Full signal strength, but 771 error, searching.
=======================================================

I did this too but 13-2 still doesn't come in, even though 13-1 does.

Keep in mind that for 23-1, two of them will show up. You'll need to use the one labeled "KDMIDT2" instead of the one labeled "KCWIDT."

We've been through this before. It is caused by bad data (typically the frequency data) from Tribune that D* uses. Hopefully they will correct the problems (they exist all over the country at the moment) over the next week or so. Yes, the KCWI is no good for this area.

This problem is LARGE...it is affecting many markets, not just ours. Take a look at the sticky thread in the Directv Programming and Services forum. It is the one at the very top, I think. Be sure to report your results.

We've been through this before. It is caused by bad data (typically the frequency data) from Tribune that D* uses. Hopefully they will correct the problems (they exist all over the country at the moment) over the next week or so. Yes, the KCWI is no good for this area.

This problem is LARGE...it is affecting many markets, not just ours. Take a look at the sticky thread in the Directv Programming and Services forum. It is the one at the very top, I think. Be sure to report your results.

I guess the part of my post about 23-1 was intended more for kanderna than for you. KCWI does work if you reset and then re-do your OTA setup and select the "KDMIDT2" in the "Edit Channels" screen, but you have to reset and re-do the setup every time the box gets rebooted. I posted this one on DBSTalk last year.

I posted my issue on 13-2 last night on DBSTalk in the new Digital Transition issues thread.

I didn't check 17-2 because I never watch it.

Yep. I was also aware on the 23-1 issue. Thanks!

Des Moines Register: Budget cuts could threaten College Wrestling coverage on IPTV

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090219/SPORTS0208/902190372/1003/archive

I don't know if anyone here is using a Windows Media Center to get local OTA, but if you are and you are having a problem with channel 13-digital this may help. You can go to:
Settings>TV>Guide>Add Missing Channels>Add DTV Channel> ...Type in 13.1 and add it as WHODT (or whatever you want to call it). Also Add 13.2 and call it whatever you like (I chose WHODT2). Then I went ahead and "hid" the regular 13.1 and 13.2 that were in my Guide that were trying to tune to UHF-19. Last, I went in and edited the listings for my 13.1 and 13.2 and had it get the listings from the old 13.1 and 13.2. This is for a TV Pack system, and a similar thing should work for regular Vista and MCE2005 machines as well. At some point they should fix the tuner/OTA info for each region and the regular TV setup should then work. As of yesterday the info for 13 was still wrong. Luckily they didn't change anything, so 17 still works fine. My guess is perhaps we'll know when they "fix" 13's channel settings when 17 stops working. Then we can manually add 17.1 on UHF-16 ;)

I found the easy way to fix the freq changes was to remove all ota, then rescan. But remove all current channels first, then rescan. That seemed to fix it for me.

I always have had problems with woi coming in. And woi #2 not at all.
Suddenly, today, Im getting all woi and @ 85 %.
They did something ???

I'm getting signal for 13-1 and 13-2 on my iMac with EyeTV hybrid, but the screen is dark. I rescanned yesterday and just now. 23-1 is completely fine, though. I rescanned on my HD TV and it's not finding 13-1 or 13-2. I scanned on my HR20-700 and it locked up!

I'm getting signal for 13-1 and 13-2 on my iMac with EyeTV hybrid, but the screen is dark. I rescanned yesterday and just now. 23-1 is completely fine, though. I rescanned on my HD TV and it's not finding 13-1 or 13-2. I scanned on my HR20-700 and it locked up!

Re-do your Initial Antenna Setup on the HR20-700 and it should "take" the 2nd time. I had the same problem...hung tighter than a drum. did a Red button Reset (RBR), and when things settled down, I went back into the OTA setup and things progressed normally. You should get 13-1, but will be missing others as previously noted. Until D* gets the fixed data from Tribune Media, we are going to have problems with the HR series boxes from D*

I'm getting signal for 13-1 and 13-2 on my iMac with EyeTV hybrid, but the screen is dark. I rescanned yesterday and just now. 23-1 is completely fine, though. I rescanned on my HD TV and it's not finding 13-1 or 13-2. I scanned on my HR20-700 and it locked up!
One thing to check with your setup is your antenna. Is it UHF only, or UHF-VHF? If you try to tune 13.1 and can't get a picture, then it may be that you don't have enough reception. It could also be that something else is wrong, but 13 is the only station down in the VHF band right now. 5, 8, and 11 will follow in due time, but for now the 13 signal is the only one broken away from UHF "digitally-speaking".

One thing to check with your setup is your antenna. Is it UHF only, or UHF-VHF? If you try to tune 13.1 and can't get a picture, then it may be that you don't have enough reception. It could also be that something else is wrong, but 13 is the only station down in the VHF band right now. 5, 8, and 11 will follow in due time, but for now the 13 signal is the only one broken away from UHF "digitally-speaking".

...and for most people using the best indoor (small with preamp) antenna they can get their hands on, Channel 13.1 has dropped dramatically. (in this area, Boone and westward) People who were receiving 13.1 perfectly before 17 Feb, have now lost it (many, not all).

A small external antenna solves those problems, but the days of indoor antennas in this area are numbered. Even people with attic antennas are having problems, but not as severe.

This 13.1 transition is a warning shot for those of us in this area. Channel 8 will be worse, and Ch 5 will be a disaster. The "lead" poster (Trip in Va) who commented on tvfool's numbers not taking into account local noise issues as one goes down in frequency is being proven correct.

I don't have the problem, as I have two outside antennas. Testing I have done with 13.1 using a flat panel preamped antenna in the upstairs bedroom tell the same story as other indoor antennas. Before transition 13.1 was very easy to get (RF 19). Now, it is very marginal (RF 13), and the slightest change (walking around room, etc.) causes major break up. It took me 15 mins of playing around to receive it at all.

I looked at the local Wal-Mart in Boone and what used to be a perfect signal on 13.1 with a preamped plate, is now un-receivable, period, no matter what antenna is used. Wal-Mart is a rotten RF environment, but 13.1 used to overcome it easily...since the change...not at all.

It's starting to look like the Omaha stations may have had the right idea abandoning VHF altogether. Their transition, when it happens should be fairly painless.

Of course, boosting ERP on 8-11-13 from 30 to 60 kW may help. Guess we'll find out in due time.

It's starting to look like the Omaha stations may have had the right idea abandoning VHF altogether. Their transition, when it happens should be fairly painless.

Of course, boosting ERP on 8-11-13 from 30 to 60 kW may help. Guess we'll find out in due time.

I agree with your comments about Omaha, although generating sufficient power on UHF is more expensive. I'm curious about your ERP comment. When is that supposed to happen for 13? (cuz they really need it) I assume the others will be on June 12?

It's starting to look like the Omaha stations may have had the right idea abandoning VHF altogether. Their transition, when it happens should be fairly painless.

Of course, boosting ERP on 8-11-13 from 30 to 60 kW may help. Guess we'll find out in due time.

You think 3 dB will fix it?

- Trip

I agree with your comments about Omaha, although generating sufficient power on UHF is more expensive. I'm curious about your ERP comment. When is that supposed to happen for 13? (cuz they really need it) I assume the others will be on June 12?

WHO-DT is maxed out by FCC standards. They might be able to swing an argument for more but it'll require invoking a specific rule. (47CFR73.622(f)(5))

EDIT: Actually, that rule may not work for them. I just checked into it.

- Trip

...and for most people using the best indoor (small with preamp) antenna they can get their hands on, Channel 13.1 has dropped dramatically. (in this area, Boone and westward) People who were receiving 13.1 perfectly before 17 Feb, have now lost it (many, not all).

A small external antenna solves those problems, but the days of indoor antennas in this area are numbered. Even people with attic antennas are having problems, but not as severe.

This 13.1 transition is a warning shot for those of us in this area. Channel 8 will be worse, and Ch 5 will be a disaster. The "lead" poster (Trip in Va) who commented on tvfool's numbers not taking into account local noise issues as one goes down in frequency is being proven correct.

I don't have the problem, as I have two outside antennas. Testing I have done with 13.1 using a flat panel preamped antenna in the upstairs bedroom tell the same story as other indoor antennas. Before transition 13.1 was very easy to get (RF 19). Now, it is very marginal (RF 13), and the slightest change (walking around room, etc.) causes major break up. It took me 15 mins of playing around to receive it at all.

I looked at the local Wal-Mart in Boone and what used to be a perfect signal on 13.1 with a preamped plate, is now un-receivable, period, no matter what antenna is used. Wal-Mart is a rotten RF environment, but 13.1 used to overcome it easily...since the change...not at all.

I would say Waukee is in this situation. I have an indoor GE antenna that received all stations very well (powered 35db). Now, 13.1 comes in marginal strength on my meter, but I don't get any picture. Glad I have DirecTV locals now, but sucks for recording other things on my iMac.

yeah, it really is too bad stations didn't take the actual end-consumer antenna requirements more to heart when they decided they would go back to their original transmitting frequencies. I think it was more of a "bottom-line for them situation", and we as viewers are just going to have to deal with it. It really would have been nice to use a UHF only setup, or secondly to be able to use a 7-up antenna, but I guess we'll just have to wait and see how this all falls apart when we try to capture signal on 5, 8, and 11 in June. My omni-directional attic dweller awaits :(

You think 3 dB will fix it?

- Trip

I was thinking the same thing...no I don't.:)

You were so right with your concerns about noise floor.:mad:

I was thinking the same thing...no I don't.:)

You were so right with your concerns about noise floor.:mad:

People think it's bad with WHO-DT, and they're on 13. Upper-VHF can at least be salvaged with outdoor VHF antennas. WOI-DT on 5 is going to be a nightmare.

- Trip

People think it's bad with WHO-DT, and they're on 13. Upper-VHF can at least be salvaged with outdoor VHF antennas. WOI-DT on 5 is going to be a nightmare.

- Trip

Yep. I saw the handwriting on the wall when 13 showed such vulnerability in the last few days. Fortunately, I love antennas...and any decent antenna belongs outside and as high as possible (as needed). The common public is going to be very, very disappointed come June 12. Right now, I'm seeing a LOT of angry and frustrated ota people in our area. I don't think it's going to get any better.

I did help one guy and he actually called me back and wanted to shake my hand. (mixed metaphor...I know). I told him to buy a small VHF/UHF antenna and put its flange mount on the side of his house. He did so (Boone area) and now gets all digital channels perfectly, no drop outs, no pixellation.

The solution is obvious, if not popular.:)

I'd forgotten that WHO at 600m was maxed out on ERP. I was thinking about the KUON situation where they have more latitude to increase ERP.

Another question: w/ analog transmitters, what TPO is required to make 100 kW (low-band V) and 316 kW high band?

I don't know if anyone here is using a Windows Media Center to get local OTA, but if you are and you are having a problem with channel 13-digital this may help. You can go to:
Settings>TV>Guide>Add Missing Channels>Add DTV Channel> ...Type in 13.1 and add it as WHODT (or whatever you want to call it). Also Add 13.2 and call it whatever you like (I chose WHODT2). Then I went ahead and "hid" the regular 13.1 and 13.2 that were in my Guide that were trying to tune to UHF-19. Last, I went in and edited the listings for my 13.1 and 13.2 and had it get the listings from the old 13.1 and 13.2. This is for a TV Pack system, and a similar thing should work for regular Vista and MCE2005 machines as well. At some point they should fix the tuner/OTA info for each region and the regular TV setup should then work. As of yesterday the info for 13 was still wrong. Luckily they didn't change anything, so 17 still works fine. My guess is perhaps we'll know when they "fix" 13's channel settings when 17 stops working. Then we can manually add 17.1 on UHF-16 ;)

this doesnt work for me, it says ch 13.1 is already in use, (vista MCE) even tho it is unchecked, i wonder if theres an xml file or registry key we can manually enter

Today, this am, on the city so side by the airport, Im getting nada zero for woi-1 or 2.
Is it them or me?

Today, this am, on the city so side by the airport, Im getting nada zero for woi-1 or 2.
Is it them or me?

I'm in your neighborhood and both are coming in fine for me.

Hey gang, having trouble & not sure what to do:

I have an HD TiVo (standalone) receiving OTA signal and basic Mediacom cable (coax straight into the TiVo, no digital box.)

After the 2/19 switchover I did a rescan and now I have two of each of these channels showing up in my channels list (13.1, 13.2, 17.1, 17.2). They have different description names (ex. WHODT is the old 13.1, WHO-DT is the new 13.1)

Problem is that I am not getting any guide data on the new channels (WHO-DT) and no signal on the old channels (WHODT). Of course with no guide data, season passes and other functions of the TiVo don't work.

I have tried rescanning a couple of times, forced connection to the TiVo service and have waited several days, but nothing yet.

Any ideas? I'm stumped.

Flysupes, I have the exact same problem. TiVo HD for OTA local, and analog cable for the rest. And why 17? KDSM didn't even change frequencies the other night! They're remaining digital on 16 while WHO moved from 19 back to 13.

I've been having this problem for a couple of months in my Vista Media Center. Generally, I can't receive channel 5 at all (either 5.1 or 5.2). Occasionally, it'll come in but will be really bad quality. It's as if I'm getting a really bad signal from just this channel. But the weird thing is that if I use my regular digital converter box instead of VMC, these channels come in perfectly.

Has anybody had a similar problem to this? Does it make sense that I would get no signal in VMC, but a perfect signal in a converter box? Same antenna, same wires.

I've also tried setting the channel up both with frequencies 5 and 59 just in case, and neither of them work. My other channels in VMC work fine.

Thanks for any help you can provide.

Tell your Tivos to reload data from the mothership: sometime Saturday Tribune Media updated WHODT as OTA 13 (and KWWL Waterloo as 7) - but unfortunately KDSM DT is still erroneously listed as OTA 17. Sigh!

I've been having this problem for a couple of months in my Vista Media Center. Generally, I can't receive channel 5 at all (either 5.1 or 5.2). Occasionally, it'll come in but will be really bad quality. It's as if I'm getting a really bad signal from just this channel. But the weird thing is that if I use my regular digital converter box instead of VMC, these channels come in perfectly.

Has anybody had a similar problem to this? Does it make sense that I would get no signal in VMC, but a perfect signal in a converter box? Same antenna, same wires.

I've also tried setting the channel up both with frequencies 5 and 59 just in case, and neither of them work. My other channels in VMC work fine.

Thanks for any help you can provide.It may make sense depending on the tuner your media center is using. None of the computer tuners I have experience with can match the tuning ability of the cheap little converter boxes. Its sad, but as far as I can tell from my limited exposure to the tuner boxes they are just a better tuner. That being said, you should be able to get channel 5's digital signal with one of the better computer tuners in my opinion if you can get it with a tuner box. Things that one would need to help you is: tuner model, software specifics, rf-cabling to the various devices, any possible rf-amps and their location in the signal, and lastly antenna type and location. Then when all of this is said and done, it may just make sense to wait until June to try to fix it all since the signal you could spend a bunch of time finally getting is going to make just about the biggest jump it can make in June.

I'm probably going to just wait until June anyway, but wanted to see if anybody had any ideas. I have two new Hauppauge HVR-1600s. I would have thought they were good enough. I do have an amp before I split to the two tuners and the converter box. The antenna is in the attic. It's not a very big one, but it always used to receive every channel perfectly up until about last September. And it still works perfect when going to the converter box. I live in Colfax, which is a little off in the boonies but not too horrible, I didn't think.

I've speculated that this would all go away in June. How much of a difference are you expecting when the switch happens?

Thanks a ton for helping me out.

It could get better in June if your antenna has good VHF performance, but it could also get worse or stay the same. One thing is for sure, it will change at that point from the high end of UHF to the lower end of VHF. I know this change in frequency will help if you have transmission line (cable) losses, but it could get worse if you have rf noise or multipath problems. Anyway, I can only suggest that you try a different tuner if you want to get the station right now, but I'm not sure I would if it were me. I think the 1600 is a bit worse when it comes to capturing weak signals than many other tuners. The DVICO Fusion 5 and the VBox DTA 150 are very sensitive. Also the Avermedia M780 PCIe combo tuner does a good job at tuning in moderate or weaker signals. The current ATI tuners are usually a little worse at tuning weak OTA signals in my opinion also.

I'm probably going to just wait until June anyway, but wanted to see if anybody had any ideas. I have two new Hauppauge HVR-1600s. I would have thought they were good enough. I do have an amp before I split to the two tuners and the converter box. The antenna is in the attic. It's not a very big one, but it always used to receive every channel perfectly up until about last September. And it still works perfect when going to the converter box. I live in Colfax, which is a little off in the boonies but not too horrible, I didn't think.

I've speculated that this would all go away in June. How much of a difference are you expecting when the switch happens?

Thanks a ton for helping me out.

Most people in this area (Boone/Ogden) who are expecting things to get better in June are going to be very disappointed if the change of NBC from RF 19 to RF 13 is any indication. In each case, the stations changing (5,8,11) will be moving from UHF to VHF. The worst case is 5, but there is no reason to expect 8 and 11 to be better than what we have witnessed for the current example, channel 13.

It appears the decrease in system link losses (there are 3 of them) are not being made up for the increase in losses (there 4 of them).

Link Improvements as a Result of Frequency Change:

1. Lower Path Loss: path loss decreases with the square of the frequency change. (roughly)
2. Lower transmitter transmission line losses.
3. Lower receiver transmission line losses.

Link Degradation as a Result of Frequency Change:

1. Lower transmit power not balanced to the path loss square law.
2. Much poorer receive antenna efficiency/gain
3. Much poorer antenna discrimination against multipath.
4. Substantially increased noise floor.

All that aside, what I have witnessed at multiple locations about 20 to 30 miles from the transmitter complex is not good. (Channel 13). Indoor pre-amped antennas are having lots of problems (set top, not large attic antennas). Assorted plates/preamps/rabbit ears/loops, etc. are having real problems with 13.

As a test, at a location that was unable to receive 13.1 after the switch (which had been receiving it perfectly) using 3 different low noise preamped indoor antennas, we lost 13.1 completely.

Taking a VERY small uhf/vhf yagi antenna and mounting it outside on the side of the house (it has a flange mount), brought in all channels, with even the lowest quality signal in the high 70's to low 80's, and most other channels in the 80 to 90% range. This antenna is an RCA that is only about 3 feet long (boom length).

In our area (20+ miles) and further out, the day of getting all the channels with an indoor antenna are over. The combination of all of the factors above, but centered on low antenna efficiency and increased noise floor, have essentially taken the small, convenient indoor antenna/preamp setup out of the picture.

It is only going to get worse in June. Trip was right. Plan accordingly. Of course, you have to consider YOUR location and not extrapolate mine, if you are closer or higher than my test sites.

I would appreciate any advice on what type of antennae to buy. We have used rabbit ears for years without any problems. We live in rural Marshall county near the Tama county line. Prior to 2/17 we picked up all Des Moines, Cedar Rapids and Waterloo channels. We have lost channel 7 and channel 13. I have reset my tv's to original factory settings and rescanned a million times, changing antennae placement each time. With the loss of 7 and 13 we now have no NBC channels. What we miss the most though is 7.2 and 7.3 (RTN and THIS-TV). Channel 5.2 has never come in for us either.

Anyway, any advice would be appreicated on what type of antennae to buy. I know we will probably have to go with an outdoor style since it sounds like it will only get worse in June with channel 8 and 5 switching to VHF as well.

TIA

The Winegard MetroStar 360HD MS-1000, MS-2000 (VHF, UHF) type of antenna may work, but it is possibly not going to. If you were able to get with rabbit ears before though, it may work. Otherwise with better antennas you will likely need a rotor if you want to continue to be able to get a spread of stations like you were getting. FWIW, I have a MS-2000 omnidirectional in my attic and it has worked so far, but I am worried about the transition's of 5, 8, and 11.

I would appreciate any advice on what type of antennae to buy. We have used rabbit ears for years without any problems. We live in rural Marshall county near the Tama county line. Prior to 2/17 we picked up all Des Moines, Cedar Rapids and Waterloo channels. We have lost channel 7 and channel 13. I have reset my tv's to original factory settings and rescanned a million times, changing antennae placement each time. With the loss of 7 and 13 we now have no NBC channels. What we miss the most though is 7.2 and 7.3 (RTN and THIS-TV). Channel 5.2 has never come in for us either.

Anyway, any advice would be appreicated on what type of antennae to buy. I know we will probably have to go with an outdoor style since it sounds like it will only get worse in June with channel 8 and 5 switching to VHF as well.

TIAOne thing you should know is that KWWL is not at its full authorized power on Channel 7 yet, and there are quite a few folks who are having trouble with it, myself included. They are planning on upgrading their power, but it appears they're going to have to buy some new transmitter equipment they originally didn't think they needed. There's plenty more info in the Cedar Rapids thread, and their engineer regularly posts there.

The Winegard MetroStar 360HD MS-1000, MS-2000 (VHF, UHF) type of antenna may work, but it is possibly not going to. If you were able to get with rabbit ears before though, it may work. Otherwise with better antennas you will likely need a rotor if you want to continue to be able to get a spread of stations like you were getting. FWIW, I have a MS-2000 omnidirectional in my attic and it has worked so far, but I am worried about the transition's of 5, 8, and 11.

One thing you should know is that KWWL is not at its full authorized power on Channel 7 yet, and there are quite a few folks who are having trouble with it, myself included. They are planning on upgrading their power, but it appears they're going to have to buy some new transmitter equipment they originally didn't think they needed. There's plenty more info in the Cedar Rapids thread, and their engineer regularly posts there.

Thanks for the responses. I might try one of the antennas you recommend but I am afraid I will have to go with a large rooftop antenna. I do realize that 7 will be increasing their power. But we are having trouble now with 13 as well and they are much closer to us. I am assuming I will need a rotator too since our stations are coming from opposite directions, and possibly a preamp. Winegard recommends the HD7084P. I attached an image of our location and also a mapping from tvfool.



What do you guys recommend? I was leaning towards the HD7084P or the HD8200U. It would be great if we could finally get a strong signal on 5 too. Funny that we could get almost all stations before from up to 60 miles away with some cheapo rabbit ears. Ahhh...technology. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the responses. I might try one of the antennas you recommend but I am afraid I will have to go with a large rooftop antenna. I do realize that 7 will be increasing their power. But we are having trouble now with 13 as well and they are much closer to us. I am assuming I will need a rotator too since our stations are coming from opposite directions, and possibly a preamp. Winegard recommends the HD7084P. I attached an image of our location and also a mapping from tvfool.



What do you guys recommend? I was leaning towards the HD7084P or the HD8200U. It would be great if we could finally get a strong signal on 5 too. Funny that we could get almost all stations before from up to 60 miles away with some cheapo rabbit ears. Ahhh...technology. :rolleyes:

If you are going to the trouble of an outdoor antenna of some size (which I strongly recommend), then do the mast mounted preamp at the same time. I prefer the Channel Master CM-7777, which handles both uhf and vhf (even separately if you wish), has decent gain and a very good noise figure. Noise figure is far more important than gain. Once you mount the preamp at the antenna, you no longer have to be much concerned about feedline losses, and can do quite a few splits. The preamp belongs at the antenna...not in the house. The difference is night and day.


Have a look at solidsignal.com, as they carry a fine line of antennas and the preamp I mentioned.

Having problems with media center windows 7.
Just with 13-1 and 13-2. Both were coming in great util the switch to the new sig (as discussed here already).
I have two MCE tuners, Hauppauge HVR 1600 and AVerRV Combo Tuner PCI-E.
Just can not get MCE to see whoDT. I may reinstall the whole win7 os and start mce setup from scratch just to see what happens.
On my dish hd dvr, it took a few rescans but the new whoDT finally came thru. Sig is @ 100%. So I know the roof antenna is doing its job.
Now I'm wondering if these PC DT tuners work with high VHF ???
Hmmmm... both my tuners have a "tv" in and "DT" in.
I have nothing connected to the "TV" in side. Wonder if connecting that up to would bring those new VHF DT channels...?
I'll give it a try.

If you are going to the trouble of an outdoor antenna of some size (which I strongly recommend), then do the mast mounted preamp at the same time. I prefer the Channel Master CM-7777, which handles both uhf and vhf (even separately if you wish), has decent gain and a very good noise figure. Noise figure is far more important than gain. Once you mount the preamp at the antenna, you no longer have to be much concerned about feedline losses, and can do quite a few splits. The preamp belongs at the antenna...not in the house. The difference is night and day.

Have a look at solidsignal.com, as they carry a fine line of antennas and the preamp I mentioned.


Thanks for the help. Do you know what type of indoor antenna would be good too to try as well? I have several tv's and probably won't split off of the big antenna to every tv. Was thinking of getting a couple of indoor antenna's for the kids tv's. All they really watch is PBS (11) anyway.

Have a few questions...
On DT ota, what type of splitter should be used.
I have one the lists the freq as 5 - 900 mhz (2 way splitter)
and another @ 5 - 2400 mhz. I have no idea what limits DT ota siginal
needs when it comes to an antenna coaxial spiltter.

Also...
On HTPC tuners, some have atsc and ntsc (digital and analog), but what is the "Qam", and "clear Qam" geatures? I think its for direct connection to cable services with out the need for the box? Which one(s) if any, work with mediacom?

Have a few questions...
On DT ota, what type of splitter should be used.
I have one the lists the freq as 5 - 900 mhz (2 way splitter)
and another @ 5 - 2400 mhz. I have no idea what limits DT ota siginal
needs when it comes to an antenna coaxial spiltter.

Also...
On HTPC tuners, some have atsc and ntsc (digital and analog), but what is the "Qam", and "clear Qam" geatures? I think its for direct connection to cable services with out the need for the box? Which one(s) if any, work with mediacom?

Splitters don't care if the signal is digital or analog, it's all a matter of frequency. The higher the frequency, the better the splitter needs to be. The specs aren't very well presented when you buy a splitter in a store. You can look at what is offered at solidsignal.com where the specs tend to be presented in a way that you can actually evaluate the splitter.

If you don't have a flatness spec, then you don't know how it is going to perform...much like spec'ing a speaker 20-20000 hz with no indication how many dB down it is at the extremes and how flat it is in the middle.

Generally the 5-2400 MHz splitter "should" be better, but without being able to see the actual attenuation and frequency roll-off, you can't be sure. In your case, I don't think I would buy the cheapest off-the-shelf splitter you could find in a store. I like the Philips 4 way for about 9 bucks at Wal-Mart, (In other words, if I were in a hurry). Otherwise get the one with the lowest loss (it's going to be more than 3 dB for a 2 way, probably 3.7 dB and greater than 7 dB for a 4 way), and the flattest frequency response. If you go to solidsignal I think you can find the graphical freq response of some of their splitters, as well as loss in dB through the splitter.

QAM is for cable channels that are transmitted "in the clear", and are thus, free, as I recall. I've never had cable.

Thanks for the help. Do you know what type of indoor antenna would be good too to try as well? I have several tv's and probably won't split off of the big antenna to every tv. Was thinking of getting a couple of indoor antenna's for the kids tv's. All they really watch is PBS (11) anyway.

That's a toughie. At the fringe (20 miles or more for indoor antennas), I haven't seen any that I would trust with the June transition. When we have 5, 8, 11, and 13 all having moved from UHF (where it is easy to get a fairly decent performing UHF antenna), to VHF (where it is hard to do the same), I remain very skeptical that any indoor antenna is going to do the job. If I were just interested in one channel (like 11.1 for example), I would consider building a two element quad for that channel. Very easy to construct with a little wire and a few wooden dowels or pieces of small pvc pipe, and not large. It could be put in a closet or hung.

Ok this is really getting irritating.
WHODT was 13.1, what was their "old" actual transmission frequency??? 59 or something?
WHO DT said they changed DT frequencies.
So what exactly is their new transmission frequency?
None of my tuners in Media center will find WHODT.

Ok this is really getting irritating.
WHODT was 13.1, what was their "old" actual transmission frequency??? 59 or something?
WHO DT said they changed DT frequencies.
So what exactly is their new transmission frequency?
None of my tuners in Media center will find WHODT.

They were on RF 19, they are now on RF 13 (if I remember correctly)

Have a few questions...
On DT ota, what type of splitter should be used.
I have one the lists the freq as 5 - 900 mhz (2 way splitter)
and another @ 5 - 2400 mhz. I have no idea what limits DT ota siginal
needs when it comes to an antenna coaxial spiltter.

Also...
On HTPC tuners, some have atsc and ntsc (digital and analog), but what is the "Qam", and "clear Qam" geatures? I think its for direct connection to cable services with out the need for the box? Which one(s) if any, work with mediacom?

Having problems with media center windows 7.
Just with 13-1 and 13-2. Both were coming in great util the switch to the new sig (as discussed here already).
I have two MCE tuners, Hauppauge HVR 1600 and AVerRV Combo Tuner PCI-E.
Just can not get MCE to see whoDT. I may reinstall the whole win7 os and start mce setup from scratch just to see what happens.
On my dish hd dvr, it took a few rescans but the new whoDT finally came thru. Sig is @ 100%. So I know the roof antenna is doing its job.
Now I'm wondering if these PC DT tuners work with high VHF ???
Hmmmm... both my tuners have a "tv" in and "DT" in.
I have nothing connected to the "TV" in side. Wonder if connecting that up to would bring those new VHF DT channels...?
I'll give it a try.

Ok this is really getting irritating.
WHODT was 13.1, what was their "old" actual transmission frequency??? 59 or something?
WHO DT said they changed DT frequencies.
So what exactly is their new transmission frequency?
None of my tuners in Media center will find WHODT.I think hasan already nailed down your splitter question. I would only add that often the higher frequency range models are slightly better quality, but they also often add DC pass. DC pass is something you only want for OTA if you're sending power to a mast outed preamp or for satellite systems that power their LNB that way.
For your HTPC tuner problem...your tuners TV in and DTV in are separate tuners, and the TV in is for analog only. It will work with analog cable or a set top box's channel 3/4 output. For your problem with 13, you need to do a few things. I only have Vista TV Pack installed on my systems, so I am guessing what it will look like in the menus.
1. Start Media Center
2. Select settings from main menu (or using Info button when appropriate)
3. Select TV
4. Select Guide
5. Select Add Missing Channels
6. Select Add DTV Channel
7. Enter the Major number of 13 (or substitute your station here) and the minor number of 1 should be automatically entered.
8. Select Next
9. Enter assigned frequency of 13
10. Select Next
11. Enter the Major number of 13 (or substitute your station here) and the minor number of 2 should be automatically entered.
12. Select Next
13. Enter assigned frequency of 13
14. Select Next
15. Select Finish
16. Select Done
17. Select Back on your Remote
18. Select Digital TV Antenna Signal Strength (if you have scheduled recordings, answer YES)
19. Here is where I would uncheck your non-working channel 13, but leave the one you added(for this reason I usually add it with a non-caps name)
20. Watch the channel checks as they scroll by and you should now have a signal from WHO-DT
21. Another option to remove the non-working channel 13 is to go into the channel editing menu of the Guide and disable it there.
22. Once in the Guide channel editing menu you will want to edit the listings for your manual channel 13 and tell it to use the old WHO-DT Guide info and the same for 13.2

Lastly you can go to my thegreenbutton post (http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/ShowThread.aspx?PostID=338294#338294)and add yourself to the list of people complaining about this problem in our market. I would check to see if its fixed, but I would have to redo the manual settings again after rerunning the TV setup. I am assuming I will know they fixed 13's frequency location once Fox 17 no longer comes in and I have to manually point that one at 16 (I'm guessing they'll move that to 17 :( )

Ok this is really getting irritating.
WHODT was 13.1, what was their "old" actual transmission frequency??? 59 or something?

It's WOI-DT that's currently way up there on RF 59.

Yes, WHO (NBC) was on 19 and went to 13. KDSM (Fox) was on 16 and stayed there after their transition (which some things didn't realize). WOI (ABC) is on 59 and plans too move to 5 (in June I expect). KCCI (CBS) is on 31 and plans to move back to 8. KDIN (IPTV) is on 50 and plans to move back to 11. KDMI (MyNetworkTV) is on 56 and is planning to take over the 19 transmitter from WHO (Thanks Trip!). KFPX (ION) is on 39 and plans to stay there, but that is in Newton or something further east. KCWI (CW) is on 56 right now and plans to move to 23. KEFB (???religious?) is on 56 now, I think, and is planning to move to 34. These are my impressions from various sources, but mainly from TVFool (http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=29&q=id%3d8270dd1346) (note this is using an Ames address)

Actually, KDMI wants to buy WHO's DT-19 transmitter. They filed with the FCC requesting channel 19 in lieu of channel 31.

- Trip

Thanks all for the help.
Im using Win7 MCE and it might be a little diff than vista's ???
I did see "add missing" in the guide options but could not remember the new WHODT freq.
As to the tuners TV vs DT input, I just wondered with this tuner and reading where whodt changed to vhf, if that was the issue. But it wasnt, as you would guess. I figured tv in was only analog but heck... gave it a shot anyway since I was getting nothing on the DT side.
Then I wondered what DT freq range these pc DT tuner cards picked up. UHF only or the high vhf also? My luck the card would not get high vhf and thus the card would be worthless after DT stations changed to vhf (if I understand it).
Im still wondering if the DT pc tuner has limits on dt freq range.
I have not yet again tried adding whodt manually. If manual adding whodt does not work either, then I will really wonder if its the tuner card(s).
Is anyone using a media pc and actually getting the new WHODT freq on the tuner DT input ??? Sounds like denyart got it to work...? I have the haup 1600 and the aver combo pci-e cards in my media pc.

Still have an issue getting WOIDT 5-1 and 5-2 to come in all the time. I think I have too many spliters going. One spliter directing the ota antenna to two different rooms, then a a 3-way with two of the outs going to the two MCE tuners, and the third to the dish DT ota input. Even with that, ALL the DT locals come in @ 100% except for WOIDT 5-1 5-2, and the WHODT issue. WHODT also came in @ 100% befoew their freq switch.
I already have a 10' mast on the rooftop DT antenna. I might go another 5'. WOI is soooo picky, and Im located on the so side near downtown.
If I am having issues I know a lot of other residents will be screaming once WOI switched in June.

Thanks all for the help.
Im using Win7 MCE and it might be a little diff than vista's ???
I did see "add missing" in the guide options but could not remember the new WHODT freq.
As to the tuners TV vs DT input, I just wondered with this tuner and reading where whodt changed to vhf, if that was the issue. But it wasnt, as you would guess. I figured tv in was only analog but heck... gave it a shot anyway since I was getting nothing on the DT side.
Then I wondered what DT freq range these pc DT tuner cards picked up. UHF only or the high vhf also? My luck the card would not get high vhf and thus the card would be worthless after DT stations changed to vhf (if I understand it).
Im still wondering if the DT pc tuner has limits on dt freq range.
I have not yet again tried adding whodt manually. If manual adding whodt does not work either, then I will really wonder if its the tuner card(s).
Is anyone using a media pc and actually getting the new WHODT freq on the tuner DT input ??? Sounds like denyart got it to work...? I have the haup 1600 and the aver combo pci-e cards in my media pc.

Still have an issue getting WOIDT 5-1 and 5-2 to come in all the time. I think I have too many spliters going. One spliter directing the ota antenna to two different rooms, then a a 3-way with two of the outs going to the two MCE tuners, and the third to the dish DT ota input. Even with that, ALL the DT locals come in @ 100% except for WOIDT 5-1 5-2, and the WHODT issue. WHODT also came in @ 100% befoew their freq switch.
I already have a 10' mast on the rooftop DT antenna. I might go another 5'. WOI is soooo picky, and Im located on the so side near downtown.
If I am having issues I know a lot of other residents will be screaming once WOI switched in June.
I can assure you that both of your tuners can receive ATSC signals on both VHF and UHF. The only thing that changes this would be your antenna. I actually have 3 Avermedias just like yours, and have some experience with the 1600 as well. As for the differences between Win7 and Vista, I could comment on that, but I'm not real excited about installing my Win7 beta's I downloaded. I don't think you are that much different though in terms of how the manual channel info is added. I don't know if it would help much with 5 right now, but being UHF-59 they are going to give you the most loss going through your cables. For them, a mast mounted preamp would probably help a lot. Also if you are on the south side you may have some line of sight issues, but that would be very specific to a location. Anyway, you can rest assured that if you add 13.1 and 13.2 on frequency 13 you will get them if the signal is good enough from your antenna.

Still have an issue getting WOIDT 5-1 and 5-2 to come in all the time. I think I have too many spliters going. One spliter directing the ota antenna to two different rooms, then a a 3-way with two of the outs going to the two MCE tuners, and the third to the dish DT ota input. Even with that, ALL the DT locals come in @ 100% except for WOIDT 5-1 5-2, and the WHODT issue. WHODT also came in @ 100% befoew their freq switch.
I already have a 10' mast on the rooftop DT antenna. I might go another 5'. WOI is soooo picky, and Im located on the so side near downtown.
If I am having issues I know a lot of other residents will be screaming once WOI switched in June.


I can almost see next year's headlines now:
WOI: Central Iowa's New Home of the CW.
ABC cites signal problems, moves to 19
Too bad Harry Pappas' timing wasn't better.

That's a toughie. At the fringe (20 miles or more for indoor antennas), I haven't seen any that I would trust with the June transition. When we have 5, 8, 11, and 13 all having moved from UHF (where it is easy to get a fairly decent performing UHF antenna), to VHF (where it is hard to do the same), I remain very skeptical that any indoor antenna is going to do the job. If I were just interested in one channel (like 11.1 for example), I would consider building a two element quad for that channel. Very easy to construct with a little wire and a few wooden dowels or pieces of small pvc pipe, and not large. It could be put in a closet or hung.

Well I decided to go to WalMart and buy several indoor antennas just to see if any of them would work since I figured it would be a while before my DH would build anything. I also went to Radio Shack and bought the UFO one (RS-1892). I thought it was worth a try since we were getting channels 60 miles away with rabbit ears before. To my surprise the Philips MANT940 Indoor/Outdoor HDTV Antenna works amazing. I am getting channel 5 and 13 now. I can even get channel 7 in our NE bedroom. This is listed as a UHF antenna only, so I am not sure why it is doing so good on the VHF channels but I am not complaining. This will definitely get us by until we can put up something like the Winegard 8200. I will say the UFO one was about equally as good, but it is very large and hard to find placement for. It was also more finicky and required more directional placement. I know in June this antenna may be worthless, but hopefully by then we will have our Winegard up. ;)

To my surprise the Philips MANT940 Indoor/Outdoor HDTV Antenna works amazing. I am getting channel 5 and 13 now. I can even get channel 7 in our NE bedroom. This is listed as a UHF antenna only, so I am not sure why it is doing so good on the VHF channels but ;)


The only major network channel on VHF right now is 13.1, and it is Hi-Band UHF, so that might explain how it could work in some situations for that channel. It doesn't work for 13.1 in this area (Boone/Ogden). I've tested it (indoors). As you noted, it chances of working at all on 5.1 after the transition is near zero (in the area stated)

Speaking of Wal-Mart, I can get their flat panel preamped (white RCA) antenna to work marginally on 13.1 in a 2nd floor bedroom, but it is way weaker than it was (of course) before the transition. It is actually spec'd to work on both UHF/VHF, but I don't think its performance is anything special on VHF at all.

Live in south Ankeny. I have 2 Windows Mediacenter PC's (1 Vista and 1 Win7) that utilize HDHomeRun network tuners. Been using an outdoor Wineguard (unamplified) antenna purchased from newegg. (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882172011) The Wineguard has performed great unamplified over the last 15 months until WHO switched their signal to RF13. I've had a horrible signal for the past week until I remembered that when I purchased the Wineguard they included an inline amplifier that I had not been using. I plugged it in and signal strength on WHO 13.1 and 13.2 is now 100%. Just wanted to share/pass along the information.

How does an inline amplifier work? Do they need a power supply?
I need to get better reception from woi.

PS. there use to be a website where you put in your zip and it displayed the locals both current and in the planning, location/direction of broadcast stations, and type of antenna you would need. Way back then only pbs and maybe one other was actually on air, others showed pending or the date they were going online. I can not find the site now.

How does an inline amplifier work? Do they need a power supply?
I need to get better reception from woi.

PS. there use to be a website where you put in your zip and it displayed the locals both current and in the planning, location/direction of broadcast stations, and type of antenna you would need. Way back then only pbs and maybe one other was actually on air, others showed pending or the date they were going online. I can not find the site now.

tvfool.com

Yes, an amp needs a power supply, but it may be located in the house with the power inserted into the coax with a "power inserter".

...PS. there use to be a website where you put in your zip and it displayed the locals both current and in the planning, location/direction of broadcast stations, and type of antenna you would need. Way back then only pbs and maybe one other was actually on air, others showed pending or the date they were going online. I can not find the site now. Hasan already mentioned tvfool, but there is also http://antennaweb.org (http://antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx) which was perhaps what you remembered. TVFool has some similar info, but it has more info and is more advanced and perhaps a little confusing for these reasons.

yeah it was antennaweb. tvfool is good too.
has anyone ever layered more than one hd antenna?
that is, a hd rod rooftop antenna plus a more directional hd antenna
added like a Winegard Sensar GS-2200 HDTV Amplified Antenna, in the mix?

I have seen it before, but one must be careful because you are setting yourself up for extreme multipath problems if overlapping signals come in on both antennas. If they don't capture the same signals with any real comparable strength you may get away with it. Otherwise you probably need some carefully designed filtering to avoid the multipath problems. I should let this be discussed further by anyone who knows more than I do.

yeah it was antennaweb. tvfool is good too.
has anyone ever layered more than one hd antenna?
that is, a hd rod rooftop antenna plus a more directional hd antenna
added like a Winegard Sensar GS-2200 HDTV Amplified Antenna, in the mix?

denyart is right...you can't combine antennas without some pretty sharp cutoff filters. The pattern of the "good" antenna is completely destroyed by the "omni" antenna, the result being lobes and nulls all over the place...and in general very poor performance.

All sorts of things come in to play to properly "stack" two antennas for the same frequency, if they are not identical. If the omni and the hi-gain antenna overlap in frequency, the hi-gain performance will suffer dramatically. If they are not overlapping, then a good filter (for stacking hi-gain antennas of differing frequencies) needs to be used (unless the antennas are inherently narrow banded) to get both antennas to work properly.

In short, what you propose is an interesting experiment, but fraught with so many confounding variables, that you won't have any idea "what you got"...except perhaps for the most important conclusion:

"Does my antenna kludge work or not?":) Ya never know, you could get lucky, but that's a strange way to go about antenna work.:eek: Then again, if you have time and the stuff is laying around, you can play all you like, which is part of the fun of OTA television viewing. (at least for some of us)

Well actually (not to back off of my own warnings) there was a place making "custom" setups for specific markets that was doing this. They were using directional antennas to pick up signals from different locations and at different frequencies. Then they were using notch filters to isolate just the frequencies they wanted form each antenna. This then mixed all together in a passive combiner and voila, something. Anyway I remember the website for this place mentioned that they were not doing this much anymore since many antenna locations have coagulated into these massive antenna farms, so it is not as necessary (or some similar reason anyway). Perhaps they are also not doing it because it is fraught with difficulty. Anyway, it would be fun if one had the time and a little money. A little rf or ieee type of knowledge wouldn't hurt either. That place I think was making the custom rigs was dennysantennaservice (http://www.dennysantennaservice.com/index.html) in Michigan. I might be remembering that wrong. In any case it is also a good place to get antennas and related stuff from. A little more "ma and pa" than solidsignal.

Well actually (not to back off of my own warnings) there was a place making "custom" setups for specific markets that was doing this. They were using directional antennas to pick up signals from different locations and at different frequencies. Then they were using notch filters to isolate just the frequencies they wanted form each antenna.

...yep, that's ok. The key is different frequencies and proper filtering. Without that, it's just a kludge.

That idea was to tweak woi to come in better.
But Im going to wait until after june to adjust the antenna.
Once the switch over is final.
I already hace a 10' mast. I might add another 5'.
I feel like retro going back to the days of massive tall antennas
on the roof and a motorized rotor. All the relatives up in marshaltown I remember would have to tune in via the rotor when they changed the channel.

That idea was to tweak woi to come in better.
But Im going to wait until after june to adjust the antenna.
Once the switch over is final.
I already hace a 10' mast. I might add another 5'.
I feel like retro going back to the days of massive tall antennas
on the roof and a motorized rotor. All the relatives up in marshaltown I remember would have to tune in via the rotor when they changed the channel.This idea of multiple antennas really isn't a bad idea if you want to get two different markets and can really just point in two different directions. The filtering would get a little complicated, but it should be possible. If I remember right there was someone who posted a picture of his antenna setup on here a few years back that may have been doing that actual thing for two different markets, but I don't know that he was actually combing them. He may have just been using an A-B switch.

Change of topic for everyone discussion OTA changes. I am looking for feedback on the latest on cable vs. DirecTV.

Right now I am using mediacom for internet access and cable. My fully loaded bill is ~$190/month for HD DVR and one standard receiver, all the premium channels and high speed internet access. i also use Qwest for telephone at ~$30/month. For a total of $220/month

Qwest is offering packages that could probably drop my costs that will eventually hit $190/ month (but ~$140-$160 for the first year), while upgrading to 3 HD/DVRs. DirecTV looks to have quite a few additional HD channels. The monthly cost is not a huge driver for me, but I am curious about the latest on

1) Quality of HD TV on mediacom vs. DirecTV.
2) Reception of local channels in HD on DirecTV (this is fine on mediacom except when they have their battles with KDSM).
3) Differences in HDDVR between mediacom and DirecTV (looks like Direct TV has a 500gb hard drive while my mediacom DVR only has 160gb and only stores a limited # of HD shows and movies)
4) Any differences in on demand for free selections?

Here is an atscpref.xml file that may help some get channel 13 back on their Media Center machines. You may be able to just paste it in C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs but be careful if there already is an atscprefs.xml in the folder you will want to merge the two properly to keep any manual channels you have added and then it should add the proper 13 tuning info. You will still need to do some cleaning up and pointing Guide data in the right direction, but it should work as long as you have a good enough signal on 13.

Change of topic for everyone discussion OTA changes. I am looking for feedback on the latest on cable vs. DirecTV.

Right now I am using mediacom for internet access and cable. My fully loaded bill is ~$190/month for HD DVR and one standard receiver, all the premium channels and high speed internet access. i also use Qwest for telephone at ~$30/month. For a total of $220/month

Qwest is offering packages that could probably drop my costs that will eventually hit $190/ month (but ~$140-$160 for the first year), while upgrading to 3 HD/DVRs. DirecTV looks to have quite a few additional HD channels. The monthly cost is not a huge driver for me, but I am curious about the latest on

1) Quality of HD TV on mediacom vs. DirecTV.
2) Reception of local channels in HD on DirecTV (this is fine on mediacom except when they have their battles with KDSM).
3) Differences in HDDVR between mediacom and DirecTV (looks like Direct TV has a 500gb hard drive while my mediacom DVR only has 160gb and only stores a limited # of HD shows and movies)
4) Any differences in on demand for free selections?

1. I am not a Mediacom supporter in any way, in fact I'll be switching to DirecTV very soon, but the picture quality with Mediacom is actually better. DirecTV compresses their channels at less than 10mbps MPEG4, while I've actually never seen an HD channel with Mediacom at anything less than 10mbps... they are usually averaging around 15mbps.

2. Both are fine. I have Mediacom, my parents have DirecTV. We both receive our locals with no issues.

3. They both suck. Mediacom's DVR is REALLY crap, and as you pointed out, smaller hard drive. But, even though DirecTV's DVR has a higher capacity, the DirecTV DVR interface is still slow as hell. DirecTV really needs to get back with TiVo.

4. I've recently switched to a TiVo with Mediacom, so I can't access VOD anymore, but when I had the Motorola DVR, I never used it. Mediacom doesn't offer anything in HD VOD (okay, maybe like two movies, and five music videos). DirecTV has pretty much ALL available VOD content in HD.

Here is an atscpref.xml file that may help some get channel 13 back on their Media Center machines. You may be able to just paste it in C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs but be careful if there already is an atscprefs.xml in the folder you will want to merge the two properly to keep any manual channels you have added and then it should add the proper 13 tuning info. You will still need to do some cleaning up and pointing Guide data in the right direction, but it should work as long as you have a good enough signal on 13.

this does not work on vista mediacenter, the path above differs in vista but i know what your above is doing and doing the same and even replaceing the same file doesnt work, anyone know if theres a reg key to edit?

1. I am not a Mediacom supporter in any way, in fact I'll be switching to DirecTV very soon, but the picture quality with Mediacom is actually better. DirecTV compresses their channels at less than 10mbps MPEG4, while I've actually never seen an HD channel with Mediacom at anything less than 10mbps... they are usually averaging around 15mbps.


So can you see the difference in picture quality in real world TV viewing? Right now, I am using a 4 year old Pioneer 50" 1080i plasma, and i may end up with a 1080p monitor one of these days.

So can you see the difference in picture quality in real world TV viewing? Right now, I am using a 4 year old Pioneer 50" 1080i plasma, and i may end up with a 1080p monitor one of these days.

On that 4 year old monitor, no, probably not. But on my TV, I absolutely can see the difference. Don't get me wrong, the PQ on DirecTV is not bad... I just notice that it's a little more, uh, flat. There is a lot less detail on DirecTV's HD channels vs. Mediacom's HD channels, although they are MUCH better than Dish.

I recommend DirecTV over Mediacom, I just wanted to point out that in fact Mediacom's picture quality is better.

this does not work on vista mediacenter, the path above differs in vista but i know what your above is doing and doing the same and even replaceing the same file doesnt work, anyone know if theres a reg key to edit?

One thing I have listed in my xml file is a fake channel that reads deleteme-dt or something like that. You need to go into the "Add Missing DTV" interface and at least see that and delete it to make sure Media Center sees and uses your new atscprefs.xml. If that doesn't work, then you will have to follow one of the other methods to make it work, or you may have something else wrong. Post with more info if you would like more help. Good luck.
EDIT: here is a good read through that explains the more thorough way of doing this
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13622354#post13622354
and here is an oldie but a goodie. It's the same stuff, but more thorough still. Unfortunately it is written with file paths for MCE2005.
http://thegreenbutton.com/blogs/pnear/archive/2006/09/12/202708.aspx

I just went from dish to mediacom for a promo offered. phone, cable, two hd dvr's and internet @ $104 a month for either 24 months or 12. Not sure since one rep says 24 and another 12.
But already i miss dish. The mediacom dual hd dvr is crap.
Two tuners but you can not setup dual recordings with out manually switching to the second tuner, then finding the program in the guide and setting it to record.
Dish and most other 2-tuner dvr's can figure out using the second tuner on their own.
Really strange.
And with dish, their dvr actually has 3 tuners. 2 for satellite and one for ota hd.
You can record ota local hd with the dish hd dvr, plus two satellite channels.
Since the dish ota hd antenna-in was direct, the quality was great using the dish dvr.
It picked up all three pbs, two woi and two cbs & nbc.
Mediacoms hd dvr only gets one pbs, one woi, one nbc and one cbs hd feed.
Another really strange.
I dont know about directv hd dvr's but I would bet they do not have three tuners and do not record ota local hd. ???

What is with ABC and airing LOST in SD? When are they going to figure out how to air an HD version even though basketball took it's normal time? I mean they've been working on this HDTV thing for what, 7 years now? It's insulting to me that think I would watch such horrible quality on my large HDTV. It really just ruins the whole show when you watch it like that.

Kind of ironic that the pirates can get an HD copy of Lost on ********** two hours after it airs, but WOI hasn't yet figured out how to broadcast an HDTV version at 9:00 instead of 7:00. How is that possible? How are broadcasters so much more incompetent than pirates? Maybe I should download a copy, put it on my thumb drive and drive over to the studio so that they'll have an HD copy to play. This is ridiculous.

Absolutely infuriating. Yeah, apparently obtaining and operating the broadcast equivalent of a high definition TiVo is beyond the grasp of the accountants, managers, and engineers at WOI. Maybe there is some bs rights/licensing reason, but good grief, they're entitled to air the show in the first place, entitled to air it delayed in SD if local programming preempts it, so why not HD?

Don't worry; spring is coming. We'll have a stormy Wednesday before you know it and they'll butcher Lost in SD again because of the stupid weather crawls that they can't do in HD. :rolleyes:

KDSM is just as bad...they had basketball push back American Idol a couple weeks ago, which was then shown late in all its SD glory.

Is anyone broadcasting in Des Moines equipped for network timeshifting in HD? At least KCCI can do HD weather crawls, if I recall correctly.

I dont know about directv hd dvr's but I would bet they do not have three tuners and do not record ota local hd. ???

The DirecTV HR20s have three tuners; two satellite, one OTA. Also, the HR21 and HR22 have the same ability when you add on the separate OTA tuner. So, yes, DirecTV receivers can do that.

Is anyone broadcasting in Des Moines equipped for network timeshifting in HD? At least KCCI can do HD weather crawls, if I recall correctly.

It is indeed sad that these affiliates can't figure it out. I did notice last week during 30 Rock that WHO is now doing HD "13 News" overlays.

FCC proposes allowing KDMI to move its post-transition channel from 31 to 19

The FCC Media Bureau is proposing that KDMI be allowed to change its post-transition channel from 31 to 19. KDMI currently broadcasts a digital signal on channel 56, which it must give up after June 12.

Pappas-owned KDMI sought the change so that it could buy and use WHO's now-dormant channel 19 digital transmitter after June 12 -- a plan which could save the company as much as $750,000.

"We believe that KDMI License’s proposal warrants consideration," the bureau wrote. "DTV channel 19 can be substituted for post-transition DTV channel 31 at Des Moines, Iowa, as proposed, in compliance with the principal community coverage requirements ... In addition, we find that this channel change meets the technical requirements set forth in Sections 73.616 and 73.623 of the Commission’s rules."

The proposal would allow KDMI to use up to 839 kW on 19 at 610m (about 2,033 feet) above average terrain.

The commission is seeking comment before finalizing the change.

Source: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-09-552A1.pdf

610m is 2000 feet. :)

- Trip

The DirecTV HR20s have three tuners; two satellite, one OTA. Also, the HR21 and HR22 have the same ability when you add on the separate OTA tuner. So, yes, DirecTV receivers can do that.



It is indeed sad that these affiliates can't figure it out. I did notice last week during 30 Rock that WHO is now doing HD "13 News" overlays.

That's not quite right. The HR20 series and the HR21/AM21 series (AM21 being the OTA add-on) have 4 tuners. 2 satellite and 2 OTA.

Only 2 can be in use at one time:

2 sat
1 sat 1 ota
2 ota

You can, however, record two programs and watch a 3rd that you have previously recorded, and also do a VOD (video on demand) download while the other tuners are busy.

Media Center users...if you hadn't gotten around to manually fixing your channel 13.1 tuning issues, you are in luck (most likely). I have confirmed, after getting a little hint to check from Chris Boedy at Microsoft, that the channel 13.1 and 13.2 info is now correct and works for my Vista TV Pack machine. If this lineup info is coming from the same source for all version of Media Center, or is already propagated through to all version's head-end servers you should be able to use the downloaded info and get channel 13.1 again. Anyway, I don't have an older Media Center to verify this with, so I will just leave that up to you if you do. You can read the other thread if you're interested here. (http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/341096.aspx)

So why can't WOI or KDSM delay network HD?

It all boils down to three things:

1) The input, output, storage and switching requirements are completely different and much higher for a broadcast station than they are for a mere home TiVo or Web app.

2) All that costs money.

3) Nobody has money to blow right now.

All this has to be weighed in light of the stations' other priorities. In the case of WOI and KDSM, time shifting is pretty much only an issue during basketball season since they pretty much run in pattern with network most of the time. That has to be weighed against everything else the station wants to do, especially when the ad revenue isn't flowing in the way it once did.

Maybe they should have turned off their analog transmitters a couple of weeks ago and pocketed four months' electricity saving for these upgrades. :D

But seriously dline, you're right, but the issue is quite annoying.

If nothing else, run the game on .2 and the normal network feed on .1. I realize WOI now has separate RTN programming on 5.2, but is there anything more worthless than 17.2? Let's just run the same program, but at lower resolution! :rolleyes:

A couple of years ago they split it and ran Idol and the Iowa game on 17.1 and 17.2, respectively, because the game was only SD to begin with.

What is with ABC and airing LOST in SD? When are they going to figure out how to air an HD version even though basketball took it's normal time? .
Hey. That really sucks. Last year WQAD broke in 3 times in an hour to warn that Rock River may cause minor flooding on Friday.

Hey. That really sucks. Last year WQAD broke in 3 times in an hour to warn that Rock River may cause minor flooding on Friday.

The local stations in Cedar Rapids just take over the whole channel with the weather information, over and over the same thing. Last year with the flooding there was no other programming but flood related stories. So I either had to rotate my antennas over to the Des Moines stations or watch the shows and hour later out of Denver.

DirecTV compresses their channels at less than 10mbps MPEG4, while I've actually never seen an HD channel with Mediacom at anything less than 10mbps... they are usually averaging around 15mbps. What are you using to take these bandwidth measurements? Thanks.

The local stations in Cedar Rapids just take over the whole channel with the weather information, over and over the same thing. Last year with the flooding there was no other programming but flood related stories. So I either had to rotate my antennas over to the Des Moines stations or watch the shows and hour later out of Denver.I didn't complain about all the programming the Des Moines stations pre-empted in the wake of the Flood of '93, even though I lived on high ground in Ames at the time, and I'd be harder pressed to complain about the wall-to-wall coverage last year of something which hit -- and is STILL hitting -- much closer to me and people I know than that.

Maybe they should have turned off their analog transmitters a couple of weeks ago and pocketed four months' electricity saving for these upgrades. :D

But seriously dline, you're right, but the issue is quite annoying.

If nothing else, run the game on .2 and the normal network feed on .1. I realize WOI now has separate RTN programming on 5.2, but is there anything more worthless than 17.2? Let's just run the same program, but at lower resolution! :rolleyes:

A couple of years ago they split it and ran Idol and the Iowa game on 17.1 and 17.2, respectively, because the game was only SD to begin with.It would have been nice if they could have shut off analog on 2/17 as planned, but the rules the FCC came out with after the extension law passed scared quite a few stations, and the commission made clear that it was not going to allow the top four network stations in a market to do the switch on 2/17 without public interest concessions. Where I live, three major stations got the go-ahead to shut off analog on the original deadline, probably because the ABC station decided to wait until June 12 and the CBS and Fox stations agreed to air "nightlight" programming for a time. In my view (and many others'), Congress did the whole industry a huge disservice by passing the extension at such a late date and forcing these snap decisions by the FCC and station owners, leaving stations in limbo with literally days to go. But as of now, it is what it is.

As for running the games on the .2 channels, the downside is that only over-the-air and digital cable viewers typically get them, while sat and analog cable viewers generally don't. When everything airs on the main channel, at least everyone in the area can see it all sometime.

What are you using to take these bandwidth measurements? Thanks.

TSReader will do live measurements directly from the firewire port of the STB. If you have already captured some transport streams and want to analyze those files, MPEG2Repair is a great freeware app that will do it.

I woke up this morning to not being able to tune WHO, it worked last friday before we left to go to our parents for the weekend. We are in Ankeny so we shouldn't be have signal problems, although I had noticed that the signal was always lower in the morning vs the evening but it was still tune able.
Any one else having trouble with 13

No problems here other than Wheel seems to be in SD for some reason.

Strange it works now, thanks for the reply.

No problems here other than Wheel seems to be in SD for some reason.

Wheel has been on and off in regards to HD. Sometimes it's in HD, sometimes it's not. Very inconsistent on WHO's part... but at least they're trying.

Wheel has been on and off in regards to HD. Sometimes it's in HD, sometimes it's not. Very inconsistent on WHO's part... but at least they're trying.

It seemed to me in the past that if the weather was anything other than sunshine and butterflies, it'll be in SD. Almost as if they anticipate having to scroll an alert, they go SD. But I don't know if thats quite the case.

I like HD :D :mad:

I woke up this morning to not being able to tune WHO, it worked last friday before we left to go to our parents for the weekend. We are in Ankeny so we shouldn't be have signal problems, although I had noticed that the signal was always lower in the morning vs the evening but it was still tune able.
Any one else having trouble with 13

Very weird, I also cannot tune 13-1, and I'm in Ames. It did work for a few days even after the switch to RF 13, but suddenly I just checked again and it doesn't come in. I get every channel at a 90% or above, except 13-1. It tells me 0%. And yes, I am POSITIVE that I'm tuning to RF 13-1.

Hmm, now I can tune to 13-1, but signal strength is low.. around 60%. I wonder what's going on.

Hmm, now I can tune to 13-1, but signal strength is low.. around 60%. I wonder what's going on.


We are 27 miles from the transmitter complex, or about 3 miles north of Ogden.

When WHO transitioned on Feb 17th, TWO things happened, in addition to dropping analog:

1. They moved frequency from RF 19 to RF 13.

2. They dropped power from several hundred KW to 35 KW

#1 requires that the antenna (UHF or Combo VHF/UHF) perform better at a lower frequency, which is often not thet case. In other words, for a lot of people, their antenna performance dropped and the decrease in path losses by going to a lower frequency did not make up for it.

#2.: The lower power combined with the increase in noise level (ambient noise) on the lower frequency resulted in a lower noise margin (weaker overall signal)

I was seeing signals greater than 80% with a combo VHF/UHF flat panel preamped indoor antenna in our 2nd floor bedroom BEFORE than transition. After they moved from RF19 to RF13, the signal level dropped into the mid 40% range, and of course, I got signal drop outs and pixellation. Playing around a lot with the antenna improved things, but basically the new 13.1 became unreliable (at best).

Bottom Line: you need a better antenna (at least most people with indoor antennas, and especially if they were using UHF antennas, do).

The good news (marginally):

For those who can't or won't use an outside "real" antenna, I found a small outdoor/indoor antenna that will work for 13 (and UHF stations), that may work for 11 and 8 (after their transition to hi-band VHF in JUne), but is unlikely to work for 5 after they move from UHF 59 to VHF-LO 5.

The Philips MANT940 (Wal-Mart 38 bucks) produces the following signals in our 2nd floor bedroom (after the modifications and setup I describe in detail below.

5.1 88% (RF59)
8.1 100% (RF31)
11.1 100% (RF50)
13.1 80% (RF13)
17.1 82% (RF16)
23.1 80% (UHF)
34.1 97% (UHF)
56.1 95% (UHF)

All measurements made with a DirecTV AM21 add-on tuner.

The MANT940 is a UHF only antenna. The fact that it works in my app on RF13 is an unexpected bonus. Since RF 13/11/8 are relatively close in frequency (approx 200 MHz), there is a decent chance that it can be made to work on both 11 and 8 after the June transition, even indoors, and an excellent chance it will work mounted outdoors. I hold out little hope for 5 after June 12.

Here's the setup for the MANT940 (if you want it to work):

1. The picture shows the antenna mounted in the vertical position. This appears to result in a more omnidirectional pattern, but lower overall gain. So step one is to take advantage of the directional characteristics of the antenna:

Lay it over on its side so it looks like an airplane wing, with the narrow side of the wedge (its general shape) pointing forward, and the thick side to the rear. Point the front of the wedge (narrow front side) toward Alleman.

2. Do not take the 20' supplied RG-59 coax out of the package. Do not use this cable. It is poor quality coax and quite lossy. For indoor use, get a 6' piece of RG-6 (Quad-shield if you like better connectors) and use it to replace the 20' RG59 supplied with the antenna.

If you are going outdoors, again, lay it on it's side (the mount rotates), and use ONLY the required amount of RG-6...do not add on to the supplied 20' of RG59...completely replace it.

I have the antenna indoors, laying on a wooden dresser (horizontal, narrow portion of wedge pointing at Alleman. Do not lay it on metal, or in close proximity to other electronic devices.

I recommend using it outdoors if you can, as it is quite light, has a super convenient mount to a readily available mast, and you can lay it over to the horizontal position with ease. It will perform a LOT better outdoors than indoors (duh!). The fact that it works for me indoors at 2nd floor level is a measure of my good location and low ambient noise. When I say "works", I mean even for RF 13, and probably for RF 11 and 8 after the June transition. It works terrifically for UHF, which is no surprise, as it is a UHF only antenna. The fact that it "can" work for some people at my distance (27 miles) on VHF Hi-Band is a big plus.

Configuring the antenna horizontally makes it directional in both front to back, and the pattern off the front appears to be 30 degrees or so. This orientation improves directivity (therefore lowering the noise capture area), and changes the antenna to horizontal polarization (further reducing noise pickup, as most man made noise is vertically polarized).

So, if you are limited or lazy, this thing might work as a compromise. My personal preference is to put up "real" antennas outdoors where they belong, but I can't do that for the upstairs bedroom. I have two other full sized antennas outdoors (garage and house) that are used in the main viewing area and distributed throughout the house (except the 2nd floor bedroom).

In summary for the MANT940:

1. Mount horizontally, wedge front toward stations.
2. Replace 20' supplied RG59 with RG-6 of required length

RF13 is now strong, and we might get lucky with future RF 11 and 8. It would be blind dumb luck if this setup worked even a little for RF 5 after June 12.

Titan tv shows 39.1,2,3&4. My tuner won't pick them up. Anyone know what is going on here. Phil

Titan tv shows 39.1,2,3&4. My tuner won't pick them up. Anyone know what is going on here. PhilIf it's what I think it is, it's the Ion affiliate KFPX Channel 39. They came into being too late to get a paired digital channel, so they're analog only until June 12, when they'll need to "flash-cut."

The Ion station in Cedar Rapids DOES have a paired digital channel and has multicast four streams for years.

Just wanted to thank "hasan" for the info on the new who-dt and mce fix.
It worked great. Took a while to figire out how to redirect the old guild channel data to the newly added 13-1 & 2, but it also is doable and worked.
I added another 5 foot mast (15' now in total) and everything, even woi-dt comes in @ 100%. And Im close to downtown on the so. side, so I know others are or will have a major problem when the final switch takes place.
Im using mediacom and a mce pc uses the hd antenna.
June isn't going to be pretty for many "ota only" users...

You're right about that (June)! You're most welcome, glad I could help.

I've got a TR-40 digital to analog converter box made by Echostar (Owned by Dish Network.) Before the digital switch I could pick up 13-1 and 13-2 no problem and I got the digital info PSIP as well. Now after the switch the box still finds NBC but they come in as 70-1 and 70-2 with no PSIP info at all. Have any other OTA people experienced this? My apologies if this has been covered

If it's what I think it is, it's the Ion affiliate KFPX Channel 39. They came into being too late to get a paired digital channel, so they're analog only until June 12, when they'll need to "flash-cut."

The Ion station in Cedar Rapids DOES have a paired digital channel and has multicast four streams for years.
Thank you. I won't worry about it until June. Phil

In regards to Lost airing in SD when delayed, I emailed the station and got this response a couple of weeks ago:
"We had intended to run the delayed LOST in HD, but we are unable to at this time. We ordered a HD server back in January so that we could run ABC delayed programming in HD. But the server has been on back order and will not arrive in time.

I apoligize for the inconvenience. Hopefully in the near future we will not have this problem.

thanks

Randy Shelton "

I'm kind of surprised WOI is doing that, given how little they delay outside basketball season (unlike out here, Nightline is live on ABC5), but it's great news. Maybe they can get some of their syndication in HD if they can get the proper receivers for it. Entertainment Tonight is one show they run that's available in HD.

I have to add in, I just installed the latest windows 7 release RC 7057 and all I can say is WOW! You can tell they have been doing a lot of work on mce. And after a clean install, Win-7 RC 7057 mce found ALL local digital stations. No "fix" needed.
This looks like a final to me... At least I've not needed to install one driver manually.
MCE can easily record 4 stations at one. Tuners are a humming!!!
(PS. check out those new themes under "get more themes").

I have Direct TV with a DVR and am experiencing bad audio delay OTA. Last night it was 8.1 Rules of engagement. I know this is an ongoing problem and I tried all the little tricks like fast forwarding, stop and starting. I just wondered if there was a "new fix". Also this is the first time (i believe) this has happened OTA.

Any suggestions?

I just got Dishnetwork installed and they were unable to get a signal from the satellite that carry's the DSM locals in HD. They are scheduled to come out and re-check this weekend to see if any other positioning of the satellite will allow them to aim at that sat. My questions is I might have to intall a pole to put the Sat on to get a clear signal so would it be worth doing or are there any relatively inexpensive antenna's to where I could get reception ota? Live in West Des Moines around the intersection of EP True and Prairie View with quite a few trees around. Thanks for any help.

I've been reading up on the differences in how VHF (especially VHF-LO) interact with "noise generating" devices nearby, compared to UHF.

In my situation I have a 2-story home on the north side of Boone. My current antenna mast is actually a 25' pole which is attached to the side of my home.

I'm wanting to get central air installed this summer, and the AC unit will need to be located within 5 feet of this current mast. I haven't put up a new antenna on this mast since I was unsure how EMI would affect the VHF channels with the AC unit so close to the dmark.

As life goes the mast is in the most convenient placement for adjustments and is fairly well hidden once vegetation blossoms this spring.

I wasn't sure if I'd be fighting an uphill battle trying to boost the signal at this location to counteract the EMI from the AC unit, or if it would be better/easier to just try to relocate the antenna and deal with that hassle rather than EMI.

...I wasn't sure if I'd be fighting an uphill battle trying to boost the signal at this location to counteract the EMI from the AC unit, or if it would be better/easier to just try to relocate the antenna and deal with that hassle rather than EMI.

What kind of antenna do you already have? If it's a good VHF/UHF yagi in decent condition with a RG/6 coax going inside, you shouldn't have to boost anything. If the receiver has trouble with electrical noise, there's a good chance that an amp would just boost the noise, too.

I've been reading up on the differences in how VHF (especially VHF-LO) interact with "noise generating" devices nearby, compared to UHF.

In my situation I have a 2-story home on the north side of Boone. My current antenna mast is actually a 25' pole which is attached to the side of my home.

I'm wanting to get central air installed this summer, and the AC unit will need to be located within 5 feet of this current mast. I haven't put up a new antenna on this mast since I was unsure how EMI would affect the VHF channels with the AC unit so close to the dmark.

As life goes the mast is in the most convenient placement for adjustments and is fairly well hidden once vegetation blossoms this spring.

I wasn't sure if I'd be fighting an uphill battle trying to boost the signal at this location to counteract the EMI from the AC unit, or if it would be better/easier to just try to relocate the antenna and deal with that hassle rather than EMI.

I sent you a private message, read it before this weekend and I might be able to help you out.

I have Direct TV with a DVR and am experiencing bad audio delay OTA. Last night it was 8.1 Rules of engagement. I know this is an ongoing problem and I tried all the little tricks like fast forwarding, stop and starting. I just wondered if there was a "new fix". Also this is the first time (i believe) this has happened OTA.

Any suggestions?

I haven't noticed it OTA, but I do notice on an HR20-700 that the local HD are out of sync (voice and picture). I've tried to delay my sound on my receiver and it makes it worse. Has anyone complained to DirecTV or local stations?

I've run into this OTA on 11.2 and 11.3 especially. The delay is very slight, but noticeable when watching something other than Nova or Nature. I'm only using a wal-mart special RCA converter box, and I haven't delved into any sync settings (if any).

On my Insignia DTV boxes at home, if I set the unit to mono, KDSM 17.1's syndicated programs (such as 2&1/2 Men) will have what sounds like a strange channel mixing (out-of-phase?) issue. :eek:

Anyone hear the same issue and/or perhaps have relayed this to KDSM?

Of course I can always switch the unit to stereo, but on my mono-only TV, I will only hear one channel (1&1/4th men!) :) 17.2 is also an option, but then I have to put up with a somewhat crappier picture.

Thanks,
-Steve

I found myself with time on my hands, so I experimented with what might serve as an emergency backup TV setup to cope with long (several hours) power outages.

RCA 13" CRT Color TV
RCA DTA-800 Digital Conversion Box
RCA Flat Panel VHF/UHF Antenna with Low Noise Preamp ($30/Wal-Mart)
75 Watt Power Inverter ($5.00/Wal-Mart close out)
12 volt jump pack (17 AH battery) ($29/Sam's Club close out)

I'm 27 miles from the transmitter complex at Alleman.

Antenna was sitting 24" off the ground on a wood end table.

Scanning for channels produced all the available digital channels except 34-1, which appears to have a problem right now (as it doesn't show on my Sammy HDTV with an outside antenna either.) Most were 65% to 85%, a couple were 45 to 55 per cent. Analog channels were terrible (lots of snow), across the board, except for Ch 23. I even got a picture (terrible of course) on Ch 5 analog.

To my surprise, I was able to receive 13.1 and 13.2 with such a compromise antenna. (noting its decrease in frequency and power on 17 Feb)

I was also pleasantly surprised that I still had 70-80 percent battery power available after 4 hours of viewing. So, it appears that my "emergency" test was successful. Amazing what things one can find amusement in when one has a little time on one's hands.:)

KDMI-DT's request to change their post-transition digital channel from 31 to 19 was approved today. If you got WHO-DT when they were on 19, you should get KDMI-DT once it moves.

- Trip