Greensboro, NC - HDTV [Text View]

foxeng

05-12-02, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by zmeister
For the past week or so UPN48(33) signal has been strong but the 6000 will not lock on it. In my past conversations with their engineer he has indicated that they have a problem with their transmitter, I'm not sure this is the same one as they have had previously.

They had had a tube/socket failure originally. This looks like PSIP problems. I have been reading a lot on it this past week and I swear I don't know how anyone figures out how these things work! I can understand why stations don't use them. They are a BEAR to setup and keep maintained. We are not in a position to use ours yet, so ours is what they call "static".

Foxeng- you might want to try the ChannelMaster CM7775 preamp. I'm not sure where you can pick one up locally but you might try www.starkelectronic.com. I have bought one from them before and I'm waiting for another. Good solid performance, the CM7777 has VHF capability if you need VHF , the 7775 is UHF only but has a 2db more gain.

I am going to buy one of those, but I am sitting here watching WRAL pixalize in and out and it is just killing me! I know just a couple more db and it would be solid! So as soon as RS opens I will be there and I will order a good pre-amp next week off the web. My whole install was just to be able to see our transmitter to see when it had problems, and do some very rudimentary coverage area analysis, but now I think I am getting hooked! I can see a new monitor in my future next year! Just 480I NTSC out right now. It does give me letterbox, which has never bothered me, and if I really want to see true HD, then I will pull the 19" monitor and plug it in the VGA spigot. With the limited offerings, I can't see spending the money right now. If the FCC proposal is acted upon by all parties next year like they want, it will be more incentive for consumers and broadcasters to jump in, then I will revisit the monitor issue.

zmeister

05-13-02, 07:58 PM

It looks like that UPN48(33) has fixed their problem.

Foxeng, if you hunt around you might be able to enjoy HD at a relatively low price. I have a CRT FP to watch special events ona 16x9 100"screen. But for most of my everyday viewing I was able to pick up a 36" 4x3 Hitachi Demo at Sears for $1100. It is not the best HD picture available but for now at that price it was close enough. I figure by the time the technology matures, this TV will probably be sold or moved to make room for the lastest widescreen TV.

foxeng

05-13-02, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by zmeister
It looks like that UPN48(33) has fixed their problem.

Not here. It is still not locking up. I did call WUPN's engineer today, but just got his voice mail. At least he knows now and if nothing happens in the next few days, I will call him again. He is pretty good guy, and for all I know, he maybe working on it and doesn't have time to tell me!

wdbjbob

05-14-02, 03:55 PM

Historically, there have been a number of places in Greensboro (including the manager's office at WFMY) where reception for WDBJ7 was pretty good. Is anyone other than foxeng receiving the DATV signal on 18 around town?

foxeng

05-17-02, 08:08 AM

WGHP has been making some changes in our streaming and in our RF chain. We still have some more work to do next week, but I am asking if you see something on air that is not right, or you think something is not right on air, let me know and I will be happy to check it out. Myself and and a tech from the transmitter manufacturer spent 10 hours Thursday going through the entire streaming chain and did find some problems that are being addressed and I will be starting to go through the RF section later today into next week.

Any reports will helpful. Just post them here and I will be checking at least daily on this forum.

Thanks
Charles Layno
Transmitter Supervisor
WGHP/WGHP-DT

compson

05-17-02, 09:21 PM

In Winston-Salem, with an indoor antenna, I have not been able to get any signal. By that, I mean that in trying to lock onto a new channel on my Dish 6000, I get no reading at all. I am able to pick up the other Triad digital channels to varying degrees.

era

05-18-02, 12:32 AM

I've had HDTV on cable (SHO and HBO) for a couple of months and it's great, but I wish they'd hurry up and start carrying the networks and PBS in HDTV as well. The Orlando Time Warner carries lots of network HDTV, as do other Time Warner cabled cities.:)

foxeng

05-18-02, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by compson
In Winston-Salem, with an indoor antenna, I have not been able to get any signal. By that, I mean that in trying to lock onto a new channel on my Dish 6000, I get no reading at all. I am able to pick up the other Triad digital channels to varying degrees.

I assume you must be referring to WGHP. At the present we are running at reduced power of 4200 watts (4.2 kW). There is no set date to increase power yet, so an indoor antenna, unfortunately will not pick us up unless you are at the tower. I am on the north side of Greensboro with a modest antenna setup, Channel Master 4228 and a small preamp on a 15 ft pole, yields good results. When the FCC set its standards for DTV, indoor rabbit ears were never considered, but an antenna located at 30 ft on the outside was used for all measurements.

We will have to make substantial modifications to increase power and we have been moving in that direction for several years and are continuing to do so, even now.

*** The following is my view and opinion and is not the view or opinion of my employer.***

I read in the forums people jumping up and down demanding stations be pulled because they are not at full power or haven't made it on air or because they only send up-converted signals.

The truth is, up until now, the FCC has not been very realistic in its view of what it takes to make the DTV transition a success. Only the broadcasters have been required to make this work, and it will take every player from the broadcasters to set manufactures to make this roll out a success. The current FCC sees this and is making strides to work with broadcasters and now is applying pressure on the other players as well. If you read the broadcast rags, the broadcasters applaud this and I think broadcasters would be more inclined to spend the extra if they knew that it all wasn't up to them, as it should be.

Had the FCC in 1995/96 come out with a complete DTV roll out plan that included the current broadcast timetable and mandated timetables for cable must carry, receiver conversion, and programming, we might be able to make the 2006 deadline, but the former FCC chairman walked around carrying a big stick demanding broadcasters do this and that and ignored the rest of the industry on this issue and was, IMHO, more inclined to criticize broadcasters than to help them. The current FCC chairman, who wants DTV, also understands the whole thing is so screwed up, it will take time to straighten out and get it going again, and he is trying to, by NOT carrying a big stick, but working with the broadcasters and addressing the other issues. He is getting more response now, than his predecessor did, but it is now 6 years down the road.

This DTV issue is a classic case of the government getting involved to force change when there was no real driving force. Would DTV have happened? Absolutely! Would it have been more orderly transition without the government? Yes. Would we have been further along in the transition had all the issues been addressed and not just the broadcast side? Yes.

It is ashamed that DTV holds so much promise and yet, it isn't happening, but I think the FCC sees its mistakes and it has sent a message to the effected industries, and they have received it. It will take some time to get DTV roll out back on track, because it is now derailed in a ditch and it is trying to get back up.

Right now the only people benefitting from DTV are the broadcast manufacturers and consumer manufacturers, because it costs money to convert whether you are a broadcaster or viewer. Until that scale is tipped by some factor (the FCC in this case), expect more of the same.

An analogy I have been using is this is 1946. In 1946, the FCC opened television to the masses. It was a rocky start, just like DTV. It was bleeding edge technology with few transmitters and fewer receivers. Stations came on sporadically and then left the air. Until the FCC made some hard and fast choices, TV floundered around until the early 50's, when it took off. The technology got better, and the industry got focused. DTV is in the same boat. In comparison, 2002 is DTV's 1946. The digital technology is still being proven and some is still vaporware, even today. I have heard others call DTV still a science project in the works, and it is. We the pupblic (me included) have gotten so use to turning on a device and it works first time, and DTV isn't there yet. As early adoptors, you are seeing a new technology develop before your eyes. DTV was only lab stuff 6 years ago and now it is in you home. A short time for R&D for an entire industry. Something that most people believed would never happen again. Remember you are the pioneers. So enjoy what little you receive right now. In years to come you can tell people how you SAW DTV develop. It will get better, but probably not as fast as we all would like it to.

The preceding has been my view and opinion. It is not the view or opinion of my employer.

Neely

05-20-02, 10:33 AM

For the last two or three days I've been receiving a dandy signal strength from WXLV-DT (29), but no picture or sound. Anyone else having the same problem?

foxeng

05-20-02, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Neely
For the last two or three days I've been receiving a dandy signal strength from WXLV-DT (29), but no picture or sound. Anyone else having the same problem?

I have been looking at their PSIP on a commerical DTV recevier and it is not right. I will give them a call tomorrow. At Least WUPN is better, but it's not right either.

zmeister

05-20-02, 09:49 PM

Yes, my 6000 will not lock on 29 as well.

Foxeng: Even though this is not really the place for this I just thought I would throw in my 2 cents on DTV. I'm not an engineer nor a tech freak. Just someone who has dabbled in first stereo and later home theater. As far DTV tech goes, I think it has been wonderful as far network OTA broadcasts are concerned. I'm fortunate to live in an area that allows me access to now 3(maybe 4 in the future) television markets through the use of DTV. My PQ from those stations that broadcast HD is outstanding and after the initial hardware investment of course free!

To me the biggest problem stems from the fact that DTV with the promise of better PQ and sound might help TV manufacturers sell more TV's but for cable and satellite operators, it eats up more bandwith thus restricting the number of channels which costs them money. Broadcasters are kinda stuck in the middle of this as they try to find the business model to make $ during this transition. Hopefully the FCC can sort this out and everybody can win. The technology is improving and I hope that some of the newer settop boxes and chips will solve some of the reception problems some of us are having. Keep the Faith!

trich

05-21-02, 07:24 PM

Could anyone in NC tell me if Time Warner in Goldsboro has any HD on there digial cable. If not would some one get Raleigh with a out side antenna.

compson

05-21-02, 09:14 PM

Accordingly to this link, HD stations are available through Time Warner in Goldsboro: http://www.twc-nc.com/line_ups/goldsboro.php

You would probably be OK with an antenna, though. You can easily pick up the analogue channels from Raleigh and Durham with rabbit ears. Raleigh's WRAL (CBS affiliate) is the leading station in the country for HD (even the local news is in HD), so I suspect they have a digital signal strong enough to be received in Goldsboro. The digital transmitter for the NBC affiliate (in case you like Jay Leno) is in Garner, but the station is actually based in Goldsboro, so I would hope you could get it there. (It's actually an NBC owned and operated station--based in Goldsboro. Hard to believe, I know. It's a long story.)

Good luck.

trich

05-21-02, 09:26 PM

Thanks compson, for the site and the station information.

Neely

05-23-02, 10:57 AM

Thanks, foxeng, for ringing their bell at WXLV-DT (29). Everything looks normal now.

I am amzed that a commercial TV station can transmit a signal for several days that cannot be decoded. Don't they monitor their own signals?

Thanks again for getting the problem fixed. Now how about working on their non-high definition problem? :)

By the way, what does PSIP mean?

foxeng

05-23-02, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Neely
Thanks, foxeng, for ringing their bell at WXLV-DT (29). Everything looks normal now.

I am amzed that a commercial TV station can transmit a signal for several days that cannot be decoded. Don't they monitor their own signals?

Thanks again for getting the problem fixed. Now about about working on their non-high definition problem? :)

Their Engineer Gil Couch called me this afternoon and we had a nice conversation. They have had some problems but are working through them. I asked about the remapping to 45 and he said they are still playing with things and it is subject to change. Having gone through this, it isn't as easy as it looks. He is saying they have a receiver at the studio now and it is decoding both 29 and 33. I am still not decoding 33 at home or at the transmitter, but I think that is part of the things they are working though.

He said that network pass though would be the next thing they work on and I would suspect that might be 6 months to a year, it depends on when Sinclair does capital and what other capital needs they have. It all depends on how this recovery goes. This is not just a Sinclair thing, but the whole broadcast industry is going through the same thing. Stations are spending big bucks right now, when they should be saving money. It is a tough time right now in TV.

By the way, what does PSIP mean?

PSIP - piece of shi....OH WAIT! Wrong acronym! (well closer to the truth actually!) Here is a blurb from the National Association of Broadcasters webpage on PSIP. After you read it you may begin to understand why some stations you get fine and others with super signals you get nothing:

"Program and System Information Protocol (PSIP) is data that is transmitted along with a station's DTV signal that tells DTV receivers important information about the station and what is being broadcast. The most important function of PSIP is to provide a method for DTV receivers to identify a DTV station and to determine how a receiver can tune to it. PSIP identifies both the DTV channel and the associated NTSC (analog) channel. It helps maintain the current channel branding because DTV receivers will electronically associate the two channels making it easy for viewers to tune to the DTV station even if they do not know the channel number.
In addition to identifying the channel number, PSIP tells the receiver whether multiple program channels are being broadcast and, if so, how to find them. It identifies whether the programs are closed captioned, conveys V-chip information, if data is associated with the program, and much more. If broadcasters do not include properly encoded PSIP data in their DTV signals, receivers may not correctly identify and tune to the station. Therefore, it is vital that all broadcasters understand PSIP and include the data in their DTV stations signals. PSIP is a mandatory Advanced Television Systems Committee (ATSC) Standard."

That last part is SO IMPORTANT and from what I have been told, is about 90% of all DTV problems that are addressed right now. There is SO much data that has to be entered in CORRECTLY, or you get a BLANK SCREEN.

Stations who do not have guides are said to be using STATIC PSIP, about (70%) and those who do have guides are using DYNAMIC PSIP. Let me tell you, just getting STATIC PSIP going is bad enough and most are still wrestling with that before they get into the guide stuff. Now that is a dog! If one piece of data is not correct in the PSIP, it will cause some receivers to not decode, like the RCA DTC-100's or will have stations on the wrong virtual channels or will have the audios in the wrong place. The whole stream is one big multiplex fiesta of data and it all has to be mapped correctly or you will the picture of one stream and the audio of a different stream if you are not careful. It is probably a good thing that there are not many receivers out there, because station switchboards could take the load!

dubbadon

05-23-02, 07:59 PM

Thanks for the HEADS-UP on WDBJ - I got them at 88 on my RCA DTC100, which is also the same SS as WFMY; but I do have to rotate the antenna. WXLV runs at a 94.

WXII is not transmitting PSIP, thus my RCA does not recognize the signal.

Still, no WGHP Signal, but I am going to bump my antenna up a few feet; hopefully, that will clear some nearby trees. PLUS, add a Pre-Amp.

foxeng

06-02-02, 10:13 PM

Well FOX8 DTV 8-1 (ch 35) is off the air again. We lost another power supply when we took a power dump on Saturday, 6/1. We hope to have it back up middle of the week.

foxeng

06-06-02, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by foxeng
Well FOX8 DTV 8-1 (ch 35) is off the air again. We lost another power supply when we took a power dump on Saturday, 6/1. We hope to have it back up middle of the week.

Finally FOX8 8-1 (35 DT) is back on again after fighting a primary power supply and power supply chassis. At the rate we are going, we will have the whole transmitter changed out!

foxeng

06-20-02, 04:54 PM

Did everyone go away for the summer?

Neely

06-20-02, 05:01 PM

I'm here waiting to read some new skinny on the local DTV scene, like somebody telling me when I'll be able to receive FOX-35 in Reidsville.

foxeng

06-20-02, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Neely
I'm here waiting to read some new skinny on the local DTV scene, like somebody telling me when I'll be able to receive FOX-35 in Reidsville.

I wish I could give you an answer, but it hasn't come down yet. Reidsville is right on the 41dbu line so depending on your location in Reidsville, antenna type and height, and the noise figure on your preamp and the overall selectivity of your OTA receiver, you might get FOX. The antenna is at 900 ft on the current tower. I don't think there is any beam tilt on it, but I might be wrong, I don't remember without looking at the specs sheet. If there is any, it isn't much and the main lobe shoots toward Greensboro with lobes out from Burlington to Winston-Salem. The full city grade 48bdu covers all of High Point, Greensboro, and a good portion of Winston-Salem. Not much toward the south or due east or west, but by law all we have to cover is city of license, which is High Point, but we were able to use some equipment already in place that made more sense to mount the system on the main tower and not on the much lower microwave tower in High Point which would have severely limited our coverage area as some other stations around the country have done.

Believe me, every station in this market is either running reduced power and/or reduced hours because of money. The stations not on the air yet, WTWB, WGPX and WLXI, will be either reduced power and/or reduced hours due to money.

Through various ways, we have identified only 7 viewers outside of the broadcasting industry who have any capability to receive OTA DTV signals. Compare that to the almost 1 million viewers in our market, and it is a no brainer why all the stations are doing what they are doing. The operational costs of a full power UHF DTV transmitter is 10 times more than a VHF analog transmitter running the same power or less. The UHF stations are already used to the high power bills from their analog stations, but even they are not running full power on DTV.

It will get better. The stations running reduced power will have to increase before 2006 or lose protection of their allocated coverages. I suspect most will be full power before then because they will phase in components over several years and not have to bite the bullet all at one time and if the receiver manufactures do what they say are gong to do, there will be a lot of receivers out and that will make it financially worth while for stations to stay on longer. If you look at the history of TV, most stations came on at night and it was in the late 80's or 90's before just about all of the TV's went 24 hours. The average cost to get a bare bones, ie upconverted DTV signal at full power on the air is over $2.5 million. Most stations pay more than that and if they have to build a new tower, you can double that price. Everything in TV is expensive.

I understand your frustration. I too feel it. It was somewhat of a let down to find out that we would not be full power or be able to pass through more than 480I to start with, but to be totally honest with you, it is probably the best thing because this is totally new ground and new things are being found everyday. I was interviewed a few years ago by the N&R about DTV and was I looking forward to be the first on air. I said "NO! NO WAY! Let the other guys forge the trail and I will learn from their mistakes." I still think that is the best way to do it because right now we have a glitch in the encoder that is taking a software upgrade to fix and it has been over 6 years since DTV was unveiled and they still are working on it. I was at a DTV seminar 3 years ago and one of the channel 2 engineers who is a friend of mine was there and we talked about all the changes we had to go through to get DTV up and we decided that AM radio was the way to go! :D The public has no idea what it takes to make a 1 and 0 fly through the air. I have told several people this and I believe it more everyday, I knew I didn't know much about DTV when I started. Now that I am doing it, I know I know NOTHING about it.

Hang in there, life does get better. In 6 months, it will be interesting to see what has changed. It may surprise you. I know it will me!

compson

06-21-02, 09:33 PM

"Through various ways, we have identified only 7 viewers outside of the broadcasting industry who have any capability to receive OTA DTV signals. Compare that to the almost 1 million viewers in our market, and it is a no brainer why all the stations are doing what they are doing."

I have stared at these words to try to figure out what you mean. You can't mean that there are only 7 people in the Triad who can pick up high def signals with an antenna. Many subscribers to Dish Network and Direct TV have that capability if they purchase an inexpensive antenna (and have the right receiver). With a visit to Radio Shack and an outlay of $17, I'm able to get high def in Winston-Salem from WXII and WFMY. Admittedly, I can't get high def from WGHP, both because FOX refuses to air high def to start with, and because your signal is so weak that it doesn't register at all. It should come as no surprise that people aren't rushing out to get antennas, when they can't even receive a High Point station in Winston-Salem. That reads more antagonistic than I mean it to, but I don't understand why you blame people for not buying something you're not selling.

dubbadon

06-22-02, 12:38 AM

I don't think that there are THAT many folks on DIRECTV or DISH that have gone out and spent an additional $500 more for the HD model satellite receivers.

Remember that to get the HD Satellite Signal and optionally the OTA (Over The Air) Digital Signals, you need that extra equipment.

I agree with FOXENG that there only a few NON-broadcasters picking up the digital signals. Even in Raleigh, which has been broadcasting in HD/SD for almost EIGHT years, they have counted their viewers on a few fingers until Time Warner Cable starting carrying their signal. Even now, there are fewer than 2,000 people in the market that are equipped to watch WRAL-HD. (It requires a special cable box.)

It will take some time for the general public to adopt digital television AND you are right that if the networks don't offer programming, they will not be viewers. CHICKEN and the EGG!

I personnally never felt the urge to watch most television in High Definition. Most programming does not do the format justice - Jerry Springer and all sitcoms come to mind. Movies, Sports are a much better use - unfortunately there is just not enough of it available on regular TV.

foxeng

06-22-02, 10:35 AM

[i] ... but I don't understand why you blame people for not buying something you're not selling. [/B]

I am not blaming anyone, that is the point. It is CHICKEN AND THE EGG. Has been from the start.

The real problem is there is no business model for DTV, and until there is, DTV is going to flounder around with this chicken and the egg. It is a government mandate to the broadcasters, plain and simple.

Let me state fact here that I don't like either, but it is the truth. CEA (Consumer Electronics Assoc) admits that since 1998, there has been only 2.5 million capable HD sets sold in the US and only 500,000 of those can actually receive OTA or via sat digital programming. For the whole USA! As I stated before, we have 1 million viewers in this area alone. How do the numbers stack up for stations/networks/programmers anywhere to spend money like it takes to provide HD programming (twice to three times as much verses analog) to 500,000 nationwide sets verses the 330 million nationwide non HD sets with the FCC's "open marketplace" policy. Either stations start charging for HD material to support the high cost verses low viewership (how much would you be willing to pay for HD programming? HHHHMM sounds like PBS :D ) or do it the way it is being done.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news put creating DTV was not for the public to have better technical TV standards, but a way to help pay down the national debt by auctioning off unused TV channels. How do you do that? By creating a new television service and squeezing them into a small space. Take old unused TV channels and sell them to the highest bidder. The auctions have already started even though stations (analog and DTV) are still on the air on those channels 52-69. That is why broadcasters have had to do this now and no other related service has even been touched. So there has been no real desire on the part of ANYONE (cable, networks, program distribution, manufactures, etc) to do it, hence, chicken and the egg.

Now, would the US have gone to DTV? ABSOLUTELY! The industry had been moving slowly in that direction for sometime, but not on this break neck speed. (Have you heard of digital radio? Not XM, but digital AM and FM? It is right around corner and you better hope the FCC doesn't force you to buy new radios like DTV) In 1996, when DTV officially started, most of the technology was vaporware and even today, there are standards that are still being worked out, like closed captioning. There is NO closed captioning standard, even though DTV stations are required to transmit closed captioning starting first of the month! There are 4 protocols now, and all receivers have to all four until a standard is devised. It is like all receivers have to have all 18 digital formats, even though only 3 are used. This is called "Marketplace" regulation, let the market place decide. Let the marketplace pay the cost is what it is.

Television is fairly labor intensive. Equipment is fairly expensive since it is a highly specialized service with VERY limited customers, less than 2000 stations in the US.

Commercial TV stations are businesses first, we get NO government subsidy, (unlike the PBS stations). But I like getting a paycheck every week too, so in order to do that, things have to be budgeted out and this short window for DTV is not really long enough to do it right, and we are seeing that now. As I said in my last post, it takes millions of dollars to just do the transmitter for DTV and at least the same amount to convert studios. Let's say you had that kind of money for capital lying around, delivery is another matter. You can have all the money in the world, but if you can't get delivery, that money doesn't do much good. There are basically 4 transmitter manufactures, 3 antenna manufactures, 3 tower manufactures, 2 microwave radio manufactures, and only about 15 tower companies that can handle this type of work and you see, money is not the only problem. These manufacturers are normally geared up to sell to about 10% of the broadcasters at any one time. You now have over 70% knocking on their doors now. (What is going to happen to them when the rush is over and NO ONE needs transmitters anymore because everyone has a new one?) Normal turnaround for a transmitter is 30 to 60 days, last time I talked to a manufacturer, last month, it was 6 months and that was with production pumped up expecting this load. It is estimated that at least 40% of all stations will need new towers installed. It takes about 4 to 6 months to fabricate a 1300 ft plus tower, and 3 to 6 months to install same said tower once it arrives, just ask Dubbadon. It took him over a year once his 2000 ft tower was delivered! Channel 2 was at low power for over a month while they were installing new antennas on their 2000 tower.

Europe started their transition to DTV in the early 90's and they still aren't there yet and will not be till 2010, and the US market is expected to be completed by 2006. Our market is much much larger than theirs, what makes ours different?

These are just some of the problems every TV station has to deal with to just get on the air. Are some stations trying to take the easy way out, I am sure of it. Just look at the list of stations the FCC has denied extensions to. I have read the reasoning for some of them and it is laughable.

No, we are not at full power yet, but each day we get one step closer, but at least we are on the air in digital. I am truly sorry our signal does not make it to you, but soon it will. We are pretty lucky in this market that we have as many digital stations on as we do even though not all are 24/7. There are some markets that do not have the first DTV station on yet.

As I stated before, it is all still new and we as broadcasters are learning. It is a whole new way of doing business for us and we are trying to make it work as best we can. Until we get some help from the FCC requiring DTV tuners in sets like they did with UHF tuners in the 50's, receiver manufacturers, and programmers, DTV life is going to be hard for everyone.

DTV is something I work on everyday, even though we have a signal on the air. I check several boards a day reading what others are saying and reading what other stations are doing, and that is why I have decided to participate in this forum, to help our viewers understand why we are doing what we are doing and to gain insight into what you expect. I have no power to make any changes, but I can send up the ladder what I see and what I hear, and I do.

I know this all sounds like I am against DTV, but I am not, I am a big supporter of it. I see it from both sides so I am tempered in my expectations. I am also a realist, and since I make my living at this, I want to be sure we have a product that will continue to allow me to make my living this way. No DTV station in this country is paying its way, none, not even WRAL in Raleigh, the first and biggest proponent of DTV. Until that happens, most stations will continue on the path they are on.

If you wish to speak to me personally, feel free to call me at work M-F 9-5 at 821-1144, that is my desk number and if you call, I will be happy to talk to you about DTV in general or WGHP-DT in particular. You can also email me at clayno@wghp.com.

Right now we are all on different pages, but the book is shrinking, thank God!

Charles Layno
Transmitter Supervisor
FOX8 WGHP/WGHP-DT

zmeister

06-22-02, 05:04 PM

I would like to state for the record that I happen to agree with much of the above post save a few points.

The "reason" for going digital: For the government to auction off spectrum to pay down the national debt unfortunately is not the entire story. Actually this is a recent byproduct of the enormous growth in the wireless industry in the past few years. The value of this spectrum wasn't much of a factor when all of this HDTV talk began in the early 80's. The idea was to deliver a High Definition picture(YES HD!) to the public. Japan proposed their analog NHK system but it was rejected primarily due to the fear that Japanese manufacturers would have an enormous advantage over the US manufacturers,(ironic that none exist today anyway). DTV was seen as a way to make everybody happy. TV manufacturers, broadcasters,(split up channels, better picture to compete against cable), the government getting back their analog spectrum, and even the public.

Unfortunately nobody was able to forsee that TV has become much more complicated especially with the growth of satellite and cable making such a large number of channels available to the public. Network tv has seen a steady erosion of market share over the last several years. DTV of course is not to blame, but it could save them. The main thing that the government must do is to force the content providers and manufacturers to deliver "cheap" settop boxes to the public that will allow them to use their current tv's whenever analog is turned off. This was actually a major point when these issues were discussed over ten years ago. Tuners in sets would help but only those that buy them. What is the average # of tv's in a US household. I bet at least 3.

How to solve this? If you allow the market to solve it would take longer, result in some business failures, but we would probably have a better system in the long run. Can we wait for this? Should the gov't step in and force DTV to happen? The history of government intervention is pretty much mixed. Usually good comes out of it but maybe not the best possible outcome. Who knows.

foxeng

06-22-02, 06:49 PM

zmeister is basically correct as for the origination of DTV, unfortunately, since about 1994, budget reduction has driven this boat and not technology, or public desire. Congress' original plan for digital television was HD only and as late as 1999 restated it in committee with the heads of the major networks in attendance where the broadcast TV industry was read the riot act on even thinking of using the public airwaves for anything BUT HD ONLY. In 2000, that perception changed with the ushering in of a Republican White House and hence a Republican majority FCC. Chairman Powell looked at the whole DTV situation and has, IMHO, called it like it is, a mess that has gotten off track for many reasons, one being no business model (IE HD for HD sake). The HD only talk has subsided, and with the modification of certain rules, the current FCC is trying to get DTV moving again, hence reasons for stations to spend the money, IE more multi streaming with better compression schemes as well as wireless Internet, etc. Problem with wireless Internet is you start getting into common carrier issues and those people do not want the pie split any more than what it is. Broadcasters make it tougher for them and the common carriers have lobbies too....

If you read the text of the November 2001 Memorandum of Report and Order on DTV, it is clear that the FCC sees that holding a gun to the head of broadcasters hasn't worked, and if DTV is to get back on track, certain rules would have to be relaxed while maintaining the milestone deadlines, IE May 1, 2002, May 1 2006, etc. Allowing stations to come on at reduced power and reduced hours allows stations to provide digital service without a crippling financial burden, thus providing more service to the public, "in the public interest" and giving broadcasters a reason to start and help break the chicken and the egg syndrome. (low 100,000's instead of several million for installation and lower operating costs with few viewers until more receivers come on line) It came too late for many broadcasters to take advantage of (November 2001 to May 2002), but it also cuts both ways. Broadcasters now have no real reason to not have a signal on the air, again the large number of denials of extensions. Most extensions I have read have dealt with delivery problems and the FCC has been accommodating to those stations who have shown they are trying. Those with no real reason have gotten their hands slapped, as it should be. Remember, no where in the rules does it say a station HAS to proved HD programming or to serve any area more than their city of license. Most markets are larger than one central area and it is to the broadcasters best interest to serve an area as large as possible, hence the current reduced power rule where stations that come on at reduced power, have until 2006 to increase or loose protection for the full allowed coverage area. This also means that the valuation of a station will drop (after 2006) if their DTV coverage area is reduced because of a station NOT building out to the full power allocated. Reason being, since as far as the FCC is concerned analog doesn't exist anymore and the FCC is not issuing any new analog stations that were not in the pipe before November 1999, if I remember the date correctly.

So the moral of the story is, for the next 4 years life may be tough, but after that, you have to put up or shut up as far as a broadcast station is concerned because the value of a station will start to count for your digital coverage and not your analog coverage, whether or not you viewing audience is mostly analog or digital. Now that is powerful incentive beyond the rules. It will be interesting to see how many stations go dark. There will be some, that is a guarantee. Hopefully none around here.

Now, on a more happy note, is there any interest in starting a DTV users group in the Triad? I would be up for such a thing. I do not have a space to host it, but maybe start out at a restaurant?

compson

06-22-02, 07:18 PM

I am sympathetic to business concerns (I'm an executive with a public company), but I do have a few comments:

I am very surprised to read that the government got involved as part of a debt-reduction program. If the government was motivated by a desire to reduce the national debt, it should have sold the space in the digital spectrum--as some advocated at the time--instead of giving it, for free, to the existing broadcasters.

Some stations went digital early, and major market stations were required to two years ago. Most stations elected to put off the expenditure as long as possible by waiting until the legal deadline. When you made that decision, you must have known that demand would be greatest then and supply would likely be short. You made your choice.

I'm not surprised that WRAL Digital is not profitable, assuming they amortize the cost of their equipment. I suspect, though, that they made a far larger investment in digital than most stations, including WGHP have, so that may not be a good yardstick. They presumably expect it to pay off eventually.

It's interesting that a broadcaster would bemoan the government's requirement that stations go digital but advocate requiring the set manufacturers to build in tuners. That would help, presumably, but I doubt it would solve the problem, given the statistics you site about people buying digital tuners. Why would only 20% of buyers of digital-capable sets buy high def tuners? Probably because they would have nothing in high def to watch. The networks, other than FOX, have done their part. ABC and CBS have a fair part of the prime time schedules in high def, and NBC, which has trailed far behind, is rumored to be preparing to put half its schedule in HD in the Fall, in addition to its nightly airing of Jay Leno is stunning HD video. HBO and Showtime both offer HD channels. Many people can't see high def, though, because cable systems, most of which have monopolies in the markets in which they operate, have been slow to offer HD, and because many local stations, which use the public airways for free, have done as little as the law required and done it as late as the law permitted. Most members of the public will not invest in high def equipment until they have something to watch. That's why, if we were ever to have high def, the government had to require stations to go digital. (Unfortunately, the operative word there, as far as FOX is concerned is "digital," so WGHP is forced to spend a lot of money with no prospect that it will even have high def programming.)

Those of us who watch high def know that many people would spend the money to get it if they knew what they were missing and programming were available. The only way to make that happen is force stations to spend a lot of money to go digital. You say the government doesn't give you a subsidy, but it really does. It gives you space on the airwaves and charges you nothing. If you want the space (and if you don't, others would be happy to take it), you have to follow the rules.

foxeng

06-22-02, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by compson
If the government was motivated by a desire to reduce the national debt, it should have sold the space in the digital spectrum--as some advocated at the time--instead of giving it, for free, to the existing broadcasters.

That was the first thought. But when the transition to digital is complete, stations will only have one channel and it was decided that it would be unfair to the public to abruptly stop analog when a station went on with digital so broadcasters are allowed to operate two channels in the interim for "free".

Some stations went digital early, and major market stations were required to two years ago. Most stations elected to put off the expenditure as long as possible by waiting until the legal deadline. When you made that decision, you must have known that demand would be greatest then and supply would likely be short. You made your choice.

FOX Television Stations, Inc, the station owner division of News Corp (which also owns WGHP) was the ONLY network owner to make the first deadline of November 1999 for their owned and operated stations in the top 30 markets. That was 14 stations if I remember the number correctly. ABC didn't make it, CBS didn't make it, NBC didn't make it.

And FOX also made the latest deadline of May 1st for all owned and operated stations to be transmitting a digital signal, that is 33 stations total and all are operating within the rules. Hearst-Argyle, the owner of channel 12 didn't have all their stations make that date (as a matter of act, they had at least one station's extension denied last week), Gannett, who owns channel 2 didn't have all their stations on air as best I can tell, either. (someone correct me if I am wrong on that one.)

Now the reason FOX network only sends 480P is anyone's guess. It has never been told, to me anyway, other than that was the decision made by corporate in LA. I would think that will change before long (at least I hope so!).

I'm not surprised that WRAL Digital is not profitable, assuming they amortize the cost of their equipment. I suspect, though, that they made a far larger investment in digital than most stations, including WGHP have, so that may not be a good yardstick. They presumably expect it to pay off eventually.

It is prestige at WRAL. Capital Broadcasting, the owner of WRAL, doesn't own 33 stations either and the station they own in Wilmington is reported to be SD only.

It's interesting that a broadcaster would bemoan the government's requirement that stations go digital but advocate requiring the set manufacturers to build in tuners. That would help, presumably, but I doubt it would solve the problem, given the statistics you site about people buying digital tuners. Why would only 20% of buyers of digital-capable sets buy high def tuners? Probably because they would have nothing in high def to watch. ...

In the early 50's UHF stations were going on the air in droves because they saw how much money the VHF stations were making. But there were few if any UHF tuners available so a large majority of those stations were gone within 2 to 5 years. Receiver manufacturers were not required to have UHF tuners and most didn't because of the cost to the receivers. Here you have a service that people WANTED, entrepreneurs were spending money to put these stations on the air, only to lose their shirts in markets that had VHF stations. The government had no choice but to step in to save those stations. People were not buying the add on tuners, because they had no reason to spend more money if there were VHF stations on the air. UHF didn't start paying for itself until the 60's and early 70's in markets that had VHF stations and UHF tuners were required in 1955, if I remember my history correctly. (may have been '53, I am not sure) because it took that long to phase out the old 50's TVs. Now to add DTV to analog TVs wouldn't drive up the cost but $25 on most sets (a few new chips at most). It wouldn't be HD, but it would receive the digital channels and that is all the FCC really cares about at this point. I really have no idea why receiver manufactures do not do that. They say there is no programming so why do it. (Chicken and the egg)

Had a comprehensive transitional plan for terrestrial DTV been devised by the FCC when DTV was authorized in 1996, other than to say broadcasters will go digital, we would not be having this conversation now. You are correct, cable has no real impetus to go digital in a true sense, programmers have no real impetus to produce in large scale HD programs, and the networks have no real impetus to force producers to provide HD programs. Had a timetable for all parties involved been drawn up at the beginning, digital would be years further down the road than it is now.

In April, FCC Chairman Powell dropped BIG hints that if the ancillary services to broadcasters, cable, networks, program distributors, and manufacturers didn't get things going by the end of the year, that legislation wouldn't be far behind. We shall see.

Those of us who watch high def know that many people would spend the money to get it if they knew what they were missing and programming were available. The only way to make that happen is force stations to spend a lot of money to go digital. You say the government doesn't give you a subsidy, but it really does. It gives you space on the airwaves and charges you nothing. If you want the space (and if you don't, others would be happy to take it), you have to follow the rules.

I respectfully disagree with you on this point. Surveys show that as long as the price of HD monitors stay in the thousands, analog TV is just fine to 80% of the people surveyed. When Wal-Mart starts to sell DTV's for hundreds of dollars, then you will see DTV take off and not before.

I say DTV and not HD because HD is a small part of what DTV is all about. You can have analog HD (why would you? but you could, the Japanese did), you can have SD digital (well you knew that one! :D ) you can have varying formats (18 in all), you can have multiple streams and all at different formats, you can do wireless Internet, you can do stock tickers, you can do wireless cable, you can do pay-per-view, paging, the list goes on. To call it HD is really a disservice to it.

Thanks for the comments. I really appreciate you bringing up the points. Most people don't know the behind the scenes stuff and I think it is important for the full story, good and bad to get out.

zmeister

06-23-02, 11:16 AM

I'm fortunate (and in debt) to have a FP that can display a HD picture. The last 2 years, I have had Super Bowl parties and my guests did notice a difference in picture between CBS's 1080i and FOX's 480P. The sale of DTV sets are increasing and one of the reasons for this IS the promise of HD pictures. I believe that Mitsu doesn't even make an analog TV anymore.

DVD viewing and the promise of watching an HD sporting event are driving the sale of these sets. I have to agree that HD doesn't need to be something a station would have to all the time. Maybe only during primetime and weekend afternnoons and evening. Or maybe for national sporting events and movies.

You know what would be interesting would be if the FCC passed a NO carry rule. That satellite and cable companies could only deliver a locals channel if the signal was digital and delivered that way. No analog signal could be shown at all. Would people drop cable because they could no longer get their locals? How much money would cable companies lose since their packages all include the basic cable price that everyone has to pay but not necessarily watch?Would this make them upgrade their systems to deliver HD? How many stations would ramp up to digital to get back on a cable system they were bumped off of?

I have enjoyed what little HD programming available for over 2 years now.
I just don't want it taken away from me.

foxeng

06-23-02, 01:54 PM

Originally posted by zmeister
DVD viewing and the promise of watching an HD sporting event are driving the sale of these sets. I have to agree that HD doesn't need to be something a station would have to all the time. Maybe only during primetime and weekend afternnoons and evening. Or maybe for national sporting events and movies.

The light bulb has come on!

You are absolutely right in your assumption that HD is not needed all the time. How much Jerry Springer in HD can you take? Do you really want to see a car crash on I-40 in HD on a local newscast? HD all the time becomes boring. You begin to do HD for the sake of HD. You burn it out. The vivid crimson color of the blood and the sun sparkling in the crumpled cars are too much for some people and it could be called exhibitionism for ratings as well by others. I have to really ask if having every prime time show in HD is really necessary. It is a neat marketing trick now, but how about in 20 years? I would prefer 16:9 480P over 1080I on many things I see on TV. Movies, sports, space launches, yes, HD; local police news conference, no. Weather graphics, no (16:9 yes). To me, the audio is more important than the picture resolution. Don't get me wrong, picture is important, but the sound sets up the whole experience. Put in your favorite horror movie and run it at the highest picture res you can, but turn the sound down. BORING. No suspense, no drama, no anxiety. 5.1 is the real star in DTV, but it is an unsung hero. Pretty pictures always get the press, but without the sound, you might as well be watching Charlie Chaplin movies with NO piano soundtrack and NO dialog cards. (and I like Charlie Chaplin!) You don't know what is going on. So HD isn't the answer all. Get better programming and use HD to enhance THAT programming, not the other way around as is being preached now.

You know what would be interesting would be if the FCC passed a NO carry rule. That satellite and cable companies could only deliver a locals channel if the signal was digital and delivered that way. No analog signal could be shown at all. Would people drop cable because they could no longer get their locals? How much money would cable companies lose since their packages all include the basic cable price that everyone has to pay but not necessarily watch?Would this make them upgrade their systems to deliver HD? How many stations would ramp up to digital to get back on a cable system they were bumped off of?

Hey! Nice idea! I like it! Stations would be going like crazy, but you are now talking about shifting the emphasis from the analog signal, that even the FCC has admitted will be the money maker for stations for a while to come in the future, to the digital signal. But wait! You would have to LEGISLATE cable companies to do that, and their lobby wouldn't like it because they are being told they CANNOT carry something! It doesn't matter what the legislative purpose is, someone will not like it because they are being told by Big Brother they have to conform to something. Hey, it is stupid, but you got the lobbyist on retainer, got to get you monies worth... ;)

I have enjoyed what little HD programming available for over 2 years now.
I just don't want it taken away from me.

I don't want to take it away from you, I want to give you MORE, but I want to be sure it is worth your time to watch! HD for the sake of HD will not carry this forward. That is why stations need help from all sectors to make this a success. Do you remember FM quad? Great idea, no one supported it, it died. AM Stereo? Now that was technology that would have revolutionized AM. I had one and you never heard AM sound so great! It really rivaled FM on music. Even AM mono. Died. I don't know if you can even buy an AM Stereo radio these days, even though the FCC has mandated that the new AM stations between 1600 and 1700 have to transmit in AM Stereo. Technology can only drive so far.

All I am saying is let's use the technology correctly and not prop up a whole service on one piece of it. It all has its time and place, we just ain't there yet.

Scooper

06-23-02, 04:20 PM

Just some thoughts of mine -

DTV all the time - YES. HDTV - where appropriate. There are even times when I can see multicasting as being appropriate. Prime Time, movies, sports- put in HDTV. Ordinary syndicated (jerry Springer, etc.), probably not. I could certainly support this use. I want DTV as much as anyone, but I don't want the broadcasters going bankrupt doing it either - that does nobody any good. SOme pressure needs to be put on the cable industry to start carrying the DTV from the broadcasters.

talosman

06-24-02, 11:06 AM

hello,

I hire Carolina Communications in the Triad (Best Buy use them also) to install an antenna. They are very nice and helpful. And they recommend an Omini multidirectional antenna installed inside the attic. My TV is a Sony widescreen XBR with HDTV decoder build-in.

It's been a week now. I couldn't get much out of it so far.

WUPN (UPN) 33.1 - work on the first two days a week ago. Now it is gone.

WXLV (ABC) 29 - unable to get their signal.

sometimes I get message to tell me the channel is move to 33, and when I switch to 33, it told me it has move to 29.

WFMY (CBS) 2.1 - the best out of the whole lot, but signal coming in and out frequently. Looking at the signal strength, I get good signal. Then it drop two bars, it become blocky, drop another bar. The screen went blank.

WGHP (FOX) 8.1 - signal coming in and out heavely, also showing up at another channel, number skip my mind

WXII (NBC) - unable to get their signal

Any suggestions to fix this? Is this at my end? or the stations?

If an antenna inside the attic will never work.....

My home owner association told me I can't install any antenna on the roof, period. I know the FFC will say different. That's why when Carolina Cmmunication told me an antenna inside the attic should work, I went for it and order the installation.

Is there any website on the net show step by step guide to fight for our rights in easy to understand terms?

Thanks for any advice.

-Talos

Scooper

06-24-02, 11:29 AM

Start Here - http://www.fcc.gov/mb/facts/otard.html - and tell your HOA to pound sand. I'd suggest printing off a copy of this document and giving it to them at the next board meeting along with a suggestion that they DROP the NO TV ANTENNAS rule from the HOA agreements/rules. If they wish to fight it - it's up to the HOA to prove to the FCC that their rules conform - and you can keep your antenna up until that time.

foxeng

06-24-02, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by talosman
hello,

I hire Carolina Communications in the Triad (Best Buy use them also) to install an antenna. They are very nice and helpful. And they recommend an Omini multidirectional antenna installed inside the attic. My TV is a Sony widescreen XBR with HDTV decoder build-in.

It's been a week now. I couldn't get much out of it so far.

Thanks for any advice.

-Talos

Where are you located? That will have more to do than whether you have an attic or not, but certainly if you can get it outside, DO IT! Use that FCC address and the documentation it has will be a huge help for you.

Channel 2 is only when CBS provides HD and from 8pm to 11:30pm, channel 12 is on from 4pm to 4am when NBC stops HD, channel 8, 45 and 48 are on 24/7, but channel 8 is at a very low power level and 45 and 48 also operate at reduced powers. The last week or so, 45 and 48, (owned by the same people) have been doing work on their PSIP information data and 48 is not correct. All I get is there number 2 HD stream which has colors bars only on it (48-2). That maybe part of your problem. You might need to re-memorize you channels to get that straightened out.

talosman

06-24-02, 01:55 PM

thanks for fast response. Didn't expect that. Such a small market right now.

I got that page at FCC before, i was trying alternative options before I try put that in their face.

I am living at Adams Farm, near Wendover/40/ guildford college road, Circuit City, etc.

Carolina Communications try came out again to tune it by rotating the antenna. Didn't get any better at all.

CBS still in and out, in and out. I am aware NBC are boardcasting in half power.

What should I do next? get a different mutlidirection antenna?

Maybe someone should start a website with resource on just North Carolina. Hard to find these info. Took me a long time before I found this message board.

- Talos

foxeng

06-24-02, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by talosman
Carolina Communications try came out again to tune it by rotating the antenna. Didn't get any better at all.

CBS still in and out, in and out. I am aware NBC are boardcasting in half power.

What should I do next? get a different mutlidirection antenna?

Maybe someone should start a website with resource on just North Carolina. Hard to find these info. Took me a long time before I found this message board.

- Talos

You didn't say if a pre-amp was installed or not. If not, that would be the next step to go to. If not, then outside is your only hope.

foxeng

06-24-02, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by talosman

What should I do next? get a different mutlidirection antenna?
- Talos

Well acutally, if the pre-amp doesn't work you only need two directions. NW to Sauratown Mt for channel 12 (33-1) and channel 26 (32-1) and south for channel 2 (51-1), channel 8 (35-1), channel 20 (19-1 soon), channel 45 (29-1) and channel 48 (33-1). The southern stations are all along US 220 south down from Level Cross to Randleman. I am using a Channel Master 4228 antenna mounted on 15 ft pole leaned up against my deck with a Radio Shack 20 dB pre-amp running 100ft of losy RG-59 cable on the north side of Greensboro and I get all the locals plus channel 7 (18-1) out of Roanoke, channel 5 (53-1) Raleigh, channel 11 (52-1) Durham, and channel 50 (49-1) Raleigh off this setup. Not bad for temporary setup.

Scooper

06-24-02, 02:59 PM

That's pretty impressive, especially considering how Radio Shack amps don't have the best reputation. Personally, I would get a ChannelMaster or Wingard pre-amp over the RS ones, but you can't argue with success.

foxeng

06-24-02, 03:15 PM

Originally posted by Scooper
That's pretty impressive, especially considering how Radio Shack amps don't have the best reputation.

Yeah, surprised me to, but the purpose was to build as crappy a system as I could, (yeah, the CM antenna is a good antenna!) to see what it would take to receiver our reduced power signal. I do want to get a CM 7778 (I think that is the number) and mount the antenna on the roof with a rotor and change the feed line to RG-6 to the length I need and not have all the waste I have now. I think some of it has to do with the Samsung SIR-T150. That is a sweet box!

Scooper

06-24-02, 03:31 PM

I need a DTV tuner SO BAD (even if I DON'T have a display yet), but I can't talk the wife into it yet. 24/7 DTV from all the Raleigh stations would help, for sure. I'm set for antenna/preamp - CM3614 VHF, CM3021 UHF with Wingard 30dB preAmp, but due to all the trees I have some difficulties with UHF analog. Probably the only way to cure that would be to put the 3021 up at the top of one of the tallest trees.

zmeister

06-24-02, 05:00 PM

Foxeng:
First sorry for the delay in my reply, I had a problem getting back on yesterday!

I have no problem with your station going the low power route at the present time. I'm sure that in time that 16x9 480P support will be forthcoming. However my concern is this: WILL YOUR STATION EVER HAVE HD CAPABILITY EVEN ON A PARTTIME BASIS? Since FOX network has pretty much said that 480P is all that is required, unless your station decides to do what FOX50 does then..... I'm not sure short of legislation what exactly will get FOX to change its mind! Maybe if the NFL mandated HD broadcast of its games with 5.1 might do the trick.

Also even though I hope you succeed in bringing me more HD, don't you think that maybe that I should decide what is worth watching in HD!

foxeng

06-24-02, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by zmeister
Foxeng:
First sorry for the delay in my reply, I had a problem getting back on yesterday!

I have no problem with your station going the low power route at the present time. I'm sure that in time that 16x9 480P support will be forthcoming. However my concern is this: WILL YOUR STATION EVER HAVE HD CAPABILITY EVEN ON A PARTTIME BASIS?

You have to remember that FOX network programming is only 2 hours a day. We have 22 more hours that have to be filled! I have no doubt that syndicators will start distributing their programs in true HD. When that happens, I am sure we will offer that. When that will happen is any one's guess. Network programs seem to be the first going in that direction. It may be several years before those shows go into syndication and I have heard of no current first run syndication programs going to HD.

As I said before, this is going to be a long term process.

zmeister

06-24-02, 07:15 PM

I have no doubt that network programming is going to take a long time. My problem with FOX concern sports. Sports is being used by TV makers to help sell HD sets. People are buying sets with the idea that they can watch some sporting events in HD.
FOX's growth of the last few years has not been on the back of its network programming but due to its Sports offerings. Baseball, NFC, NASCAR, etc. Every other network has broadcast at least 1 major sporting event in HD. HDNET is doing several games, other smaller regional sports networks are getting cameras and also broadcasting some on HD capable cable systems. Even ESPN might get in the act! WHY NOT FOX!

foxeng

06-24-02, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by zmeister
I have no doubt that network programming is going to take a long time. My problem with FOX concern sports.

I wish I could give you an answer, but I have no information. That is something that is decided in LA. You might want to write a letter to them and state your opinions.

I know that is not the answer you wanted to hear, but if the network doesn't send it to us, we can't transmit it.

dubbadon

06-24-02, 09:34 PM

Originally posted by talosman

WXII (NBC) - unable to get their signal

WXII NOT is transmitting PSIP. That causes my RCA DTC-100 not to recognize the signal at all. It may be that way with other receivers. I receive WUNL-DT great when I spin my antenna.

I spoke with the owners of a HUGHES HD DirecTV Receiver, his receiver reads the channels differently than my RCA - yet it's the same data.

As Charlie has mentioned - TOO MANY things, Closed Captioning, PSIP, Program Guide, Audio and so forth - no standards.

talosman

06-24-02, 10:36 PM

---------------------
Foxeng: You didn't say if a pre-amp was installed or not. If not, that would be the next step to go to. If not, then outside is your only hope.
============

I ask them this evening when Carolina Communications called me. They told it has a "power invertor". There was a power adapter, it plug into the cable near the TV. And it suppose to boost the power at the antenna.

- Talos

talosman

06-24-02, 10:44 PM

dubbadon, if my decoder support all 18 standards, shouldn't that work? I think it may have to do with my antenna set up.... or locations? too many variables right now.....

foxeng

06-25-02, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by talosman
dubbadon, if my decoder support all 18 standards, shouldn't that work? I think it may have to do with my antenna set up.... or locations? too many variables right now.....

Unfortunately that is not how DTV works. Not only do you have to have a signal to decode, you need to have the the PSIP data configured correctly for the receiver to reassemble the different pieces into a usable signal.

Trust me, to go into all the of nuances of PSIP is WAY beyond this thread! If you really want to tackle this, the Sarnoff website has about the best technical explanation of how PSIP works of any I have seen. It is still very technical, but if you understand streaming, you might glean some stuff from it.

Now having said that, some first generation DTV receivers, the DTC-100 and its variants are 1st generation receivers, work on a slightly different PSIP protocol that was in use at that time of manufacture. The PSIP protocol has been updated twice since then and the DTC-100's require PSIP data to decode a station correctly. If a station is not transmitting any PSIP data, then the receiver doesn't know how to reassemble the signal so it ignores it. Later versions of the PSIP protocol have other ways of determining the correct sequence and so they will decode stations with no PSIP data (like WXII). But if the PSIP data is misconfigured, you will have all kinds of funny things happen, like video from one stream with audio from another stream, or if you have two stations and they have the TSID incorrectly configured (the TSID is a unique ID number for each station in the country that the MSTV organization has assigned and is trying to get the FCC to recognize it) and if it is set to 1 or 0 or the same as another station your area, when you go to station WXXX, your receiver will go to station WYYY instead because it looks to see how the PSIPs match the TSID. For instance, WGHP's TSID for channel 8 is 1832 and for channel 35 is 1833. This tells the receiver that TSID 1833 is the digital channel for High Point, NC. TSID 1 is for a station in Alaska! It gets confusing!

As of today, best I can tell, all stations that I can receiver, all locals anyway, are transmitting some form of PSIP except WXII. I see that WXLV and WUPN have reconfigured PSIP from their actual DTV channels (29, 33) to their remapped analog channels (45, 48) but now all I get is WUPN's HD stream (48-2) which shows nothing but color bars all the time.(48-1 is their regular SD channel which my Samsung is not decoding now) But that is better than before, I used to get nothing at all on 48 (33)! So Gil is working on it! The professional DTV demod at work will decode both WUPN streams, but I have to force it to do that.

NAB has reported that 80% of all DTV problems these days are due to misconfigured PSIP because engineers do not understand it. I know I don't as well as I should. I am trying, but it is a HUGE learning curve. We will get there! (PSIP will be the death of all the engineers! I am positive of it!)

I got more in depth than I intended to, but as you can see, it isn't as straight forward as it looks.

Hope that helps!

zmeister

06-25-02, 07:58 AM

Talos: You might want to try a find a RS Double-bow tie antenna. They have been discontinued but check around most RS's have one or two somewhere. It is less than $20 and from your location you should be able to pick up all of the local digital stations w/o a preamp. I have used that antenna here in ELon and was able to pick up a number of stations in the Triad and Triangle but with a preamp. My cousin is using it in South Charlotte to pick up all the Charlotte stations which are about as far away and in different directions as in your case. Of course your problem might lie in your reciever but then?

I don't have a problem with any of the digital stations and PSIP right now. The 6000 is able to decode them all at the present time but I have had problems in the past. I check UPN48 and it comes in after a couple of seconds but I'm going to have to resave it because the channel mapping is right now. It was saved as 33 and is not being remapped right now but it does show 48 on the ADD DTV menu.

talosman

06-25-02, 08:06 AM

----------
You might want to try a find a RS Double-bow tie antenna. They have been discontinued but check around most RS's have one or two somewhere. It is less than $20 and from your location you should be able to pick up all of the local digital stations w/o a preamp.
==========

I tried three different kind of rabbit ears (lable on it say it has amp. and HDTV ready), from Radio Shack, Best Buy, etc.

And none of them are able to pick up even the VHF boardcast at my locations to my surprise.

PamW

06-25-02, 08:16 AM

OK all you Greensboro folks!

I just found this thread. My question concerns TWC. I was on the wait list for months - I finally got the box a few weeks ago. The amazing thing is that only PBS and HBO are broadcasting HD - the local stations haven't signed on to TWC yet for me to receive their signals. I have called WFMY and WXII about this. WFMY says it is in talks with TWC and WXII gave me the runaround. My set is HD ready, so the cable box seemed to be the way to go. All of you seem to have an antenna or dish - am I waiting on something that may never happen (local HD over cable)? Thanks for letting me vent!

foxeng

06-25-02, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by PamW
OK all you Greensboro folks!

I just found this thread. My question concerns TWC. I was on the wait list for months - I finally got the box a few weeks ago. The amazing thing is that only PBS and HBO are broadcasting HD - the local stations haven't signed on to TWC yet for me to receive their signals.

Hi Pam and welcome! I wish the news were better.

I am the transmitter supervisor at channel 8 so here is what I know. About a month or so ago I spoke with the head tech at the head-end in Greensboro on a different subject, but DTV came up and I asked him what they were doing for OTA DTV. He said they had not decided yet. Of course, they can't put any signal up without a carriage consent agreement. The DTV signals are considered as a different station to cable so it can be a long process when lawyers get involved!

My best guess and it is a GUESS ONLY, is that it will be awhile before OTA gets on cable because not all locals are on the air yet, channel 2 and channel 12 are not on the air all the time between 6am and 12 midnight (channel 2 from 12:30pm to 1:30pm, 8pm to 11:30pm; channel 12 from 4pm to sometime after midnight) the other stations transmitting SD 24/7 only. It doesn't add any value for TWC since they would have to open up additional channels for these stations and at the moment, you really don't get much more than what you see currently. Now, again, that is a WA GUESS on my part. Remember, there are NO FCC rules at this time requiring cable companies to carry OTA DTV. And as long as the local OTA DTVs offer the limited amount of service/programming, unfortunately I would suggest you consider an outside antenna if you want your DTV.

Sorry for the downbeat tone.

talosman

06-25-02, 11:30 AM

PamW, I just found this board myself, and these people are full of info. I have an HD box from TWC also. I was on waiting list since last July, and finally got it this past January. And it turn out the cable box has dead connectors in the back, and have it replace a month later.

I have admire Channel 501 (demo loop) from time to time. So nice. Now I get to catch a glimse of CBS via a semi working antenna. I have to say, I can't wait! Only few more years I hope.

zmeister

06-25-02, 04:26 PM

The RS double-bowtie does not look at all like rabbit ears. They are usually not even on display. Ask the salesman to look in the catalog for UHF antennas. It is a copper screen with 2 bowtie elements attached. It is actually quite ugly but works extremely well. Last I checked the RS at Colonial Mall had one in stock. The salesman didn't even know it existed! If I can pull in Raleigh stations here in Elon, you should have no problem with the triad stations.

Jim Hewett

06-26-02, 07:45 PM

Originally posted by foxeng

Now, on a more happy note, is there any interest in starting a DTV users group in the Triad? I would be up for such a thing. I do not have a space to host it, but maybe start out at a restaurant? [/B]

Yes, I would.

foxeng

06-26-02, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by Jim Hewett

Yes, I would.

This is a bit premature, but I will let dubbadon give the full announcement.

There is a triad group being formed with webpage and mail lists. When this is all setup, Don will announce all the particulars.

zmeister

06-26-02, 08:49 PM

Hey guys,

Just screwing around and noticed that WDRL-UPN24(41DT) is broadcasting. I'm having some trouble locking on consistently, since I believe they are at low power. I also have a problem with this storm because I have a 6000 which is a fine unit save one weakness, reliance on a sat signal for it to work!!!!!!!! You might want to check it out! Danville VA.

I would have some interest in a group depending on the schedule.

PamW

06-26-02, 10:27 PM

Count me in, too!

Thanks for the info on the TWC foxeng. Do I also need a box to go with the bow tie antenna for my cable ready HDTV? Or can I somehow transmorgrify the TWC box as a decoder???

Mind you, I am female, and only somewhat technically competent - however, I can design a room with perfect colors in a snap! ; )

PamW

06-26-02, 10:30 PM

OOOH, that sounded sexist - from me! Anyhow, I can follow directions with great efficiency - I cannot, however, always figure out a technical situation when one arises. Is that better?

foxeng

06-27-02, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by PamW
Count me in, too!

Thanks for the info on the TWC foxeng. Do I also need a box to go with the bow tie antenna for my cable ready HDTV? Or can I somehow transmorgrify the TWC box as a decoder???

It depends on the type of box TWC is using. I am not familiar with their boxes. If they are using 8VSB then you should be able to connect an antenna to it, providing you can tell it to use off air channels and not cable channels (they are not the same). If they are using a QAM protocol, then either use it to view HBO, Showtime, HDNet, whatever they offer and that is about all or give it back and/or get either a OTA only box or a combo OTA sat box and cut cable loose all together and get you HDTV OTA and sat. Or live with what you have.

Mind you, I am female, and only somewhat technically competent - however, I can design a room with perfect colors in a snap! ; )

HHHMM Our technical expertise and your decorating expertise, I see someone with THE ULTIMATE home theater! :D

foxeng

06-27-02, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by zmeister
Hey guys,

Just screwing around and noticed that WDRL-UPN24(41DT) is broadcasting. I'm having some trouble locking on consistently, since I believe they are at low power. I also have a problem with this storm because I have a 6000 which is a fine unit save one weakness, reliance on a sat signal for it to work!!!!!!!! You might want to check it out! Danville VA.

You may be one of the few people who can tell it is there. I just checked the FCC data base and they are at low power 7000 watts at 275 ft. They are authorized 50,000 watts around 320 feet. (are they on a mountain with such low antenna heights?) They also appear to be directional to the North, so I suspect those of us in Greensboro would not be able to pick them up at reduced power unless you are on the north side with some height yourself. I will try them later today and see if I can see them, but I doubt it.

PamW

06-27-02, 01:16 PM

hey foweng,

I'll check out the box later today and if it works, I'll let you know!

BTW, I am having a ball designing our HT - to - be. Demolition/construction will begin in the next few weeks!!! :cool:

zmeister

06-27-02, 08:18 PM

Just to report that I was able to lock it in tonite and watch a little WWF on UPN24(41). Signal strength ranged from 68-73. I'm not sure I will be able to get it on a regular basis but a good sign since they are currently at low power!

foxeng

06-27-02, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by zmeister
Just to report that I was able to lock it in tonite and watch a little WWF on UPN24(41). Signal strength ranged from 68-73. I'm not sure I will be able to get it on a regular basis but a good sign since they are currently at low power!

I talked to dubbadon this afternoon and found out that WRDL's tower is located in Caswell County and it isn't very tall (300ft). It does sit on a high spot, but it has no real coverage area because of another station (he and I do not know which station that might be, I suspect a station in VA since the tower is in NC). Being in Elon, you are closer than I am and that may be the reason you are seeing it and I am not. Others mileage may vary.

roland6465

06-27-02, 09:22 PM

Can any of y'all recommend a good antenna outfit? My preamp got fried in the storm today. :( I can't get up on my roof, so I have to call in a pro.

foxeng

06-27-02, 10:14 PM

Originally posted by roland6465
Can any of y'all recommend a good antenna outfit? My preamp got fried in the storm today. :( I can't get up on my roof, so I have to call in a pro.

I like the Channel Master 4228 with a CM 7775 pre-amp.

roland6465

06-28-02, 05:21 AM

Sorry, foxeng.....I meant somebody to get up and replace the preamp. NOW A/V did the first setup, but They kinda forgot to bill me for the now fried amp, and I'm afraid they'll remember if I call them out again.

foxeng

06-28-02, 05:24 PM

Just a quick note to let you know that on Monday, WGHP is to get a firmware update for our encoder. It doesn't fix the annoying picture freeze that you see once an hour, but it does fix a closed captioning problem that had to get fixed to meet an FCC mandated deadline of Monday for all DTV stations to be passing closed captioning. I hope nothing else breaks when this new firmware is installed. It is to arrive Monday morning FedEx so keep your fingers crossed!

If you see anything, let me know here or give me a call at the station at 821-1144.

foxeng

07-01-02, 12:55 PM

Just a quick update to let you know that the new encoder firmware update has been made on WGHP-DT and we are passing closed captioning now. So far everything seems to be working as best I can tell. If you see something funny, let me know here or at work at 821-1144 or clayno@wghp.com.

Best I can tell is is EIA-708A CC1 encoding.

Charles Layno
Transmitter Supervisor
FOX8 WGHP/WGHP-DT

foxeng

07-02-02, 06:53 PM

Of those of you who get WGHP-DT, is your closed captioning form us working? On the Samsung receivers we have at the station and I have here, it is very sporadic, even though my pro DTV receiver at the transmitter is showing closed captioning. I would like to know if the populous is receiving as we try and debug this latest snag on the road we call DTV.

Charles Layno
Transmitter Supervisor
FOX8 WGHP/WGHP-DT

talosman

07-07-02, 04:52 PM

this is for Don (who post his "user report" at www.triad-hdtv.org).....

You menton you get the following stations.....
WDBJ-DT 18, WXLV-DT 29, WUNL-DT 32, WUPN-DT 33

what about the local ones? You have any luck?

- Talos

foxeng

07-07-02, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by talosman
this is for Don (who post his "user report" at www.triad-hdtv.org).....

You menton you get the following stations.....
WDBJ-DT 18, WXLV-DT 29, WUNL-DT 32, WUPN-DT 33

what about the local ones? You have any luck?

- Talos

I think that is ALL he gets of the locals, WXLV-DT, WUNL-DT, and WUPN-DT.

:(

dubbadon

07-08-02, 07:30 AM

Thanks, I missed WFMY.

WXII does not transmit PSIP, so my receiver will not acknowledge it's presence, despite its 3 dbm signal strength above WUNL - which I get fine.

I ran a topographical survey on my home and I live in a slight bottom, which affects my reception. I am hoping that the new UHF antenna and pre-amp I have purchased (but not yet installed) will improve my reception.

FYI - The Triad HDTV Website is pretty much up now. Comments are welcome. Reception reports are needed. Since Charlie and I work at local TV stations (WGHP and WTWB), we have two stations on board - we'd like more stations to participate. Your reports will help. Reception Reports are currently found on the receivers page.

Triad HDTV (http://www.triad-hdtv.org)

foxeng

07-08-02, 04:44 PM

Well I have just found out (what I had told the manufacturer last week), the closed captioning software update that we got last week IS BROKEN! They have asked the FCC for an extension and they gave then until the 21st of July to comply! So I guess we will be getting more software soon! It does look like the video glitch is fixed. For the moment though!

Charles Layno
Transmitter Supervisor
FOX8 WGHP/WGHP-DT

PamW

07-09-02, 01:22 PM

Thank you all for keeping us informed! I try to read this thread every day to see what's happening. I am still going to put up my double bow tie antenna soon - painting the computer room and swim team practices and meets have kept me away from doing any major wiring etc...

FYI, the Radio Shack at Friendly has one more double bow tie antenna for $9.97.

foxeng

07-10-02, 09:42 AM

In case you missed this on the "Greenboro" HDTV Group thread.

Hey, let's all get together for a dinner meeting in the next few weeks. I know it is the middle of summer, but what works for everyone between now and the first of August? I will be there and you can grill me ( :) ) for dinner if you want! Don has alluded that he will be there too, so there you have two to grill!

What is everyone's preference?

Jim Hewett

07-12-02, 08:12 PM

Would love to. Dinner sounds good. About anytime in the middle of the week over the next several weeks would be fine. How about picking several evenings and let everyone respond and then you pick the one when most can attend.

Hey, let's all get together for a dinner meeting in the next few weeks. I know it is the middle of summer, but what works for everyone between now and the first of August? I will be there and you can grill me ( ) for dinner if you want! Don has alluded that he will be there too, so there you have two to grill!

Neely

07-13-02, 03:16 PM

Is anyone else experiencing any difficulty receiving WFMY-DT (51) in the past few days? What was my strongest station has been totally dead since sometime during the week of July 8th. Are you folks watching 51-1 these days? I miss it.

foxeng

07-13-02, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by Neely
Is anyone else experiencing any difficulty receiving WFMY-DT (51) in the past few days? What was my strongest station has been totally dead since sometime during the week of July 8th. Are you folks watching 51-1 these days? I miss it.

I haven't seen WFMY since the storm the other night. I didn't think it was bad enough to knock anyone off the air, it didn't us, but since then I haven't seen them up. Of course I haven't been regularly checking them. Since they are not on much, if I watch CBS, I just watch it off Directv. but I commented last night with the antenna pointed south, I didn't see a signal. I will make a point to specifically look to see if they are up tonight.

foxeng

07-13-02, 10:22 PM

Originally posted by Neely
Is anyone else experiencing any difficulty receiving WFMY-DT (51) in the past few days? What was my strongest station has been totally dead since sometime during the week of July 8th. Are you folks watching 51-1 these days? I miss it.

It was mentioned earlier that WFMY was not on the air and after checking it tonight they seem to be off the air. I thought they were down since that last storm last week but I never checked to see if it was them or my antenna and tonight I am not seeing any indication that they are transmitting. Maybe we can find out next week what happened.

foxeng

07-14-02, 03:43 PM

Went to Best Buy and Circuit City today to see what they had in the store with DTV receivers and see what they were playing on them.

I WAS AMAZED! NO 1080I pictures, all 480P and I heard one salesman at Best Buy telling a couple that the HDTV they were looking WAS displaying an HD picture! It was 480P with an in store DVD playing. I wanted to ask the salespeople there if they had any 1080I material, but I never got one, the 2 that were in the TV section had too many customers to serve and the other three went the other way when I moved toward them.

Circuit City was no better on PQ. They had an NBC race feed up on several of the monitors and it was the WORST picture I have ever seen with little digital blocks all over the picture! (Obviously NOT WXII at 2pm) It was definitely 480I up converted to something other than 480P on some monitors. I did get a salesperson and asked if they had any 1080I material and he said that they did have HDNET for the Olympics, but not anymore and that was all they had to show and I could take it or leave it. I asked him if they had any off air and he said "with only 'three' stations, it wasn't worth it."

I had been to Now Audio/Video back in March and I felt the whole time I was there, I had a gun to head to buy a TV. The salesman there tried to pass off 480P DVD as HD until I asked it they received WRAL, then he back off the "HD DVD." I will never go back in there again.

Sheesh! No wonder no one is buying. No one in those stores would know the difference anyway! I don't feel so bad now about my upconverted 480P! It is what everyone in the store is seeing anyway!

HedoTerry

07-14-02, 06:06 PM

Just to add to the problem. My nieghbor told me he went to BestBuy a few days ago and the salesman there told him not to even think of buying a HDTV until 2004. I have no idea what every one is afraid of but we need more people like Mark Cuban to step forward and get this thing rolling.

jeffshoaf

07-16-02, 08:38 PM

I seem to have lost sound on WUPN-DT. Anybody out there getting sound on 48-1?

talosman

07-17-02, 10:48 PM

last few nights I check, WFMY is gone... oh well. Dinner sounds fun. Still dont have much luck with my setup so far....

Also planning to set up an IEEE 802.11b network at home soon....

Talos

talosman

07-18-02, 09:10 AM

btw, anyone know where can I get TIVO expand with a bigger hard drive locally?
I read the process, it require a PC for backup purpose. Only have a Mac here.

-Talos

wdbjbob

07-18-02, 09:31 AM

It's the same up here in Roanoke, folks. The chain store guys just don't seem to know what they're talking about. We're the only station here doing 1080i and we went to see the chains and asked them to use an antenna and at least one display set to demo 1081i. I think BestBuy had an RCA set displaying our 1080i for a week or so, but they sold it and never went back to anything displaying material other than the chain's prerecorded stuff.
BTW, my sympathy to the two TV chiefs on the Greensboro forum. We spend a lot of days chasing our tails, too. Much of the DATV and HDTV equipment being delivered to television stations is hardly more than prototypes. Our PSIP is set up to identify our Channel 18 digital signals as 7.1(for fulltime 1080i and HDTV when we have it) and 7.2 for a standard definition test signal. The PSIP burped a week or two ago and suddenly anybody whose receiver had previously found us at 7.1 and 7.2 then found us at 18.1 and 18.2, with the same signal strength, but with no audio or video. After agonizing over what to do, the vendor had us tell viewers to turn off the program guide to get audio and video back. I think we're finally back to normal, but it lit up my e-mail inbox.
Somebody told me last week that they're watching us at WFMY, so it sounds as if we're still pouring a right good digital signal into much of the Greensboro area.

foxeng

07-18-02, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by wdbjbob
Somebody told me last week that they're watching us at WFMY, so it sounds as if we're still pouring a right good digital signal into much of the Greensboro area.

Bob, I live on the north side of Greensboro and get a good signal all the time from WDBJ. It is the only Roanoke, Lynchburg station I see here.

Charles Layno
Transmitter Supervisor
FOX8 WGHP/WGHP-DT

wdbjbob

07-18-02, 03:57 PM

My creditors appreciate your watching. WSET long ago applied for a different channel for digital and it's still waiting for the FCC to act. WSLS opted for a low-power interim launch, but some of our digital viewers down along the state line tell me they can pick up the Channel 30 signal when it is working right. The Fox affiliate has a Channel 21 transmitter licensed to Lynchburg and a Channel 27 transmitter licensed to Roanoke. They fired up the Channel 20 DATV version of the Lynchburg transmitter and they're multicasting Fox and WB on it. I don't think their Roanoke DATV is up yet. The Pax O&O is digital on Channel 36, but only during prime time. People tell me it has right good coverage, too.
It's still kind of lonely out there.

foxeng

07-18-02, 04:28 PM

Originally posted by wdbjbob
My creditors appreciate your watching.
I don't watch that often. :D HHHMMM, I don't watch CBS that often come to think of it!

The Fox affiliate has a Channel 21 transmitter licensed to Lynchburg and a Channel 27 transmitter licensed to Roanoke. They fired up the Channel 20 DATV version of the Lynchburg transmitter and they're multicasting Fox and WB on it

We have a 5 meg NTSC channel 20 here (WB) so the DTV channel 20 can't be seen. Oh well!

wdbjbob

07-18-02, 05:16 PM

Maybe your hair just isn't grey enough yet.

foxeng

07-19-02, 11:11 AM

We talk a lot about PSIP and how important it is so the receivers will work correctly, and it is pretty complicated. The ATSC Standards Committee, (the people who thought the protocol up) has released document A/69, "ATSC Recommended Practice: Program ans System Information Protocol Implementation Guidelines for Broadcasters." It is a guide for broadcasters on how to set up PSIP. Here is the URL if you would like to look at it: http://www.atsc.org/standards/A69.pdf.

Oh, it is 93 pages long!

Neely

07-20-02, 07:48 AM

For JeffShoaf

I don't have sound on 33-1 either. It's been silent for almost a week, although the video is fine.

foxeng

07-20-02, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by Neely
For JeffShoaf

I don't have sound on 33-1 either. It's been silent for almost a week, although the video is fine.

I don't have 33-1, only 33-2 (48-2) and it has color bars only on it! Been that way for a while now. At least you have more than I do! ;)

Neely

07-20-02, 08:50 AM

Why does a station waste the electricity to transmit a signal that no one is decoding? Are they aware that the signal can not be decoded?

foxeng

07-21-02, 08:12 PM

Originally posted by Neely
Why does a station waste the electricity to transmit a signal that no one is decoding? Are they aware that the signal can not be decoded?

I can't speak for them, but if people call and complain to the station, it might help. The general perception in the industry here is that no one is watching and so as long there is a signal of some type that can be documented, then the letter of the law is being met. That is not the attitude I have and several others, but the people who control things believe that. That is why calls from the puplic do go along way.

foxeng

07-22-02, 08:08 AM

How does Wednesday, July 31st sound to everyone? I was thinking around 7:30pm at the Golden Coral at Wendover and I 40. They have a back room that we can get and have some privacy and there is a good selection of entrees.

I haven't checked to see if the room is available, but if that looks good to everyone, I will set it up.

Jim Hewett

07-22-02, 01:47 PM

Wednesday July 31 at 7:30PM sounds good to me. Count me in.

jeffshoaf

07-22-02, 08:07 PM

Whoops! Now 48-1 is totally gone! No signal strength on the meter at all...

wdbjbob

07-23-02, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Neely
Why does a station waste the electricity to transmit a signal that no one is decoding? Are they aware that the signal can not be decoded?

As the general manager of a local television station, I can tell you that many of us honestly believe that we have to migrate to digital or perish. We're just about the only analog entity left. Unfortunately, though, the FCC's hands-off attitude has not done anyone any favors in this conversion. Just try going into the typical electronics chain store and trying to get logical answers to your questions about digital television. Or take your pension and try buying a set with an integrated tuner. Or better yet, try going into a local store and buying a decoder.
We're wasting the electricity (our power bill alone went up $6,000 a month when we launched the digital channel) because we are required to if we want to stay in business. The public will finally come along on digital television, but it sure is taking a lot longer than any of us would like.

jeffshoaf

07-23-02, 06:26 PM

Now they're (WUPN-DT) back with no sound...

Neely

07-23-02, 09:31 PM

wdbjbob,

I can assure you the public will never be impressed by a digital TV station (33.1) that does not transmit the audio portion of its program for weeks at a time.

WFMY-DT has been off the air for three weeks. I miss them but at least they're not wasting electricity on a video signal with no audio. I wish I could receive you better.

foxeng

07-24-02, 12:00 PM

Here is an interesting website that has a full section on DTV reception. It gets a tad bit high brow for some, but if you do outside (and I am sure some of it can be used for attics too) it is a very good primer for receiving DTV signals. Don't let the name of the site fool you, it is run by a consult and he is using all the names he can think of to get you to come to his site. Luckily, it is a free site. Enjoy!

http://www.projectorexpert.com/

wdbjbob

07-24-02, 04:05 PM

Thanks, Charles. That's an interesting site.

PamW

07-24-02, 10:24 PM

Out of town for the Golden Corral event - hopefully there will be others...

The Wheelers

foxeng

07-26-02, 11:40 AM

Couple of articles of interest

From an industry mag's website, TVTechnology NewsBytes

comes an article that Congress is getting tough with the FCC to get off the pot and do its job with the digital transition.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=368

and one on the number of DTV sets that have been sold and the CEA's estimate of the numbers to be sold. Remember these are wholesale numbers and not in home numbers.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/dailynews/one.php?id=373

ENJOY!

foxeng

07-31-02, 04:41 PM

THe HDTV supper for 7/31 is off. No room at the "end".

I am trying ot get it rescheduled for NEXT Wednesday 8/7. Same time, same place.

Charles Layno

foxeng

07-31-02, 05:04 PM

This may be good news for HD viewers!

http://www.usatoday.com/money/media/2002-07-30-fcc_digital_x.htm?treets=ral&tml=ralhdtv&ts=T&tmi=ralhdtv_1_03500107312002

foxeng

07-31-02, 08:03 PM

Golden Correl off Wendover at I-40 beside Crackle Barrel is set for next Thursday, Aug 8 at 7 PM. We are to have the back room and it is listed as Triad HDTV Users Group. Seems Wednesdays are not good days for them.

See you Thursday the 8th!

Charles Layno

foxeng

08-02-02, 12:46 PM

This from today's mediaweek.com

http://www.mediaweek.com/mediaweek/headlines/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1574967

foxeng

08-04-02, 08:48 AM

Just cruising the net and came across some DTV DX sites. Didn't know people were doing this yet, but the pix speak for themselves! As a broadcaster, I was very interested to see distances since all the stations listed are ALL UHFs! Of course these guys have TALL antennas and big pre-amps, but one is using an antennat 12 feet off the ground!

Quite a few FOX owned stations listed, (but not WGHP!)

Enjoy.

http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/hdtv.html

http://www.oldtvguides.com/DXPhotos/

http://pages.cthome.net/fmdx/hdtv_ty.html

foxeng

08-05-02, 07:07 PM

Here is an article that sums up the broadcasters problems with DTV. You may not agree with it, but the industry thinks this way.

http://www.tvinsite.com/broadcastingcable/index.asp?layout=story_stocks&articleid=CA237189&display=sectionStory&verticalid=311&industry=Cover&pubdate=08/05/2002&STT=000&industryid=1585&treets=ral&tml=ralhdtv&ts=T&tmi=ralhdtv_1_03580108052002

foxeng

08-06-02, 06:26 PM

Looks like Thursday may be an important day for DTV.

http://www.reuters.com/news_article.jhtml;jsessionid=X1F4G5P02SMUGCRBAEOCFEY?type=t echnologynews&StoryID=1293400&treets=ral&tml=ralhdtv&ts=T&tmi=ralhdtv_1_04560108062002#

foxeng

08-07-02, 07:21 AM

Just a reminder about tomorrow night (Thursday) at Golden Corral off Wendover at I-40 beside Crackle Barrel at 7pm for the first Triad HDTV Users Group get together.

See you there!

talosman

08-08-02, 11:58 PM

awww, I am 5 hrs behind...... wish I read this sooner.....

- Talos

foxeng

08-09-02, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by talosman
awww, I am 5 hrs behind...... wish I read this sooner.....

- Talos

Wish you had too!! :D

Just two of us last night, but we had a good time. When does everyone want to do it again?

foxeng

08-09-02, 08:20 AM

For those of us who have outside roof mounted antennas, here is a story you should keep in mind.

I have not heard from dubbadon for a while, (he is the engineer at channel 20). Turns out he fell 12 feet from his ladder while adjusting his DTV antenna.

"I was changing out my Pre-Amp on my UHF antenna on July 22nd, when the ladder kicked out on me. I fell approximately 12 feet, straight on my legs. I have a Spiral Fracture of the Left Tibia and a Tibia Plateau Fracture of the Right Tibia. I was in Wesley Long for 4 days, transferred to Moses Cone for 12 days to Rehab."

He just returned home yesterday.

So if you do outside antenna work, always have someone along with you in case you get into trouble and be sure you have all climbing devices secured before you climb, and if you are not comfortable with a situation, do not push it and get hurt. We broadcasters need all the viewers we can get!! ;)

Speedy recovery Don!

foxeng

08-29-02, 08:06 AM

For the ones who had contacted me about the 4:3 stretched to 16:9 in 480P mode, we have been waiting for a software update from the aspect ratio manufacturer that was to allow us to go either 16:9 or 4:3 when in 480P mode. It only does 16:9 in 480P currently. The update was expected 2 weeks ago, then last Friday, but it still isn't out yet, so we are still waiting.

Thought you might like to know.

Charles Layno
FOX8 WGHP/WGHP-DT

foxeng

09-06-02, 07:57 AM

I am hearing rumors that sometime after January, TW will begin to offer the local DTV channels. There appears to be nothing in place yet since they are early in the project, so I wouldn't be calling TW just yet. I suspect the phone bank at TW doesn't even know this much.

It is going to be interesting to see what is offered since channel 16 and 20 have asked for a second extension into 2003. (16 was denied the first) and nothing has been heard from channel 61. This maybe why the vagueness on the launch date.

This is prime gossip material, so I wouldn't bank too heavily until we hear more.

If I hear more, I will pass it along.

foxeng

09-06-02, 08:29 AM

http://treets.wral.com/svc/lnk.cfm?l=12053594&t=1

MrPhred

09-09-02, 10:55 AM

After countless hours of reading messages on this forum, weeks of studying spec sheets, and days of abuse at the hands of salesholes (whoops, I mean salesmen), I finally bought my first few components of a home theater system.

I recently purchased a Pioneer 520HD-PRO HDTV and a Samsung SIR-T151 STB. My STB arrived much quicker than I had anticipated - far in advance of me getting an antenna strapped to my roof. So for now, I'm stuck using inexpensive, amplified, Radio Shack rabbit ears.

My results using rabbit ears have been less than stellar. The only station I receive with complete reliability is WXLV. I've also been able to receive, with varying degrees of success, WXII, WUPN, WUNLV, and WFMY. (I'm located in a heavily wooded area near the PTI airport.)

I caught my first full HDTV broadcast of some show called "CSI - Crime Scene Investigator" on WFMY-DT last Thursday night. The picture quality was so incredible I almost busted out crying. It was incredible! Despite the fact that the audio was buggered up, I sat glued to me set. (I later learned from the very helpful folks out at WFMY that the audio problem was theirs - not a problem in my equipment as I'd first suspected.)

After considerable research, I've decided to purchase a Channel Master 4228 antenna and 9521A rotor. But, I'm getting a little too old (and wise) to go playing around on my roof. Have any of you guys run across a reputable antenna installer in the Grensboro area?

By the way - I'd like to thank all you guys for all the helpful information you've posted in this forum. It sure helped me out in making some of the complicated decisions that go with setting up to receive OTA HDTV. (See - I even know some of the acronyms, now.)

I'll give an updated reception report as soon as I get an antenna up on my roof.

foxeng

09-09-02, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by MrPhred
After countless hours of reading messages on this forum, weeks of studying spec sheets, and days of abuse at the hands of salesholes (whoops, I mean salesmen), I finally bought my first few components of a home theater system.

I'll give an updated reception report as soon as I get an antenna up on my roof.

Welcome to the frey! Glad you got your antenna. Wish I could help on installation though.

Those pix are really beautiful!:)

jacksonian

09-09-02, 04:09 PM

CBS to Offer College Sports on HDTV

I emailed WFMY a couple of times about this. As of this weekend, they still couldn't say what their schedule would be. The problem appears to be that they don't know which games they will get vs. which games will get sold to other markets. It's disappointing that the season has already started and they can't say if we'll be watching an SEC game in HD or a Wake game in analog from the JP network.

I also emailed WXII about the fact that you can't find their HD programming listed anywhere on their website. They run those commercials saying "First in the Triad to offer HDTV" and then you can't find out what they're showing in HDTV, granted until the fall season starts, it ain't much.

I haven't bought yet, but it's killing me. I'm waiting for a plasma with a digital tuner and DVI/HDCP connection and for an HD TiVo. We rarely watch anything live, even football, it's just too painful when we've had TiVo for 2 years now. Hopefully Dish will have their HD PVR ready by Christmas and there will be a plasma for me soon after.

foxeng

09-12-02, 02:19 PM

In the past several months, I have been in a battle with our manufacturers over closed caption issues on WGHP-DT. They are coming back and telling me it is receiver related and to be honest, I don't believe it.

We only have Samsung SIR-T150's here and it isn't working on them, my fancy $12k digital ATSC demod monitor doesn't have the current software in it to receive closed captioning, that is an issue I am hot on the manufacturer about now since it will be a month or more before the update arrives.

So those of you who can receive our channel 35 DTV signal, will you please give a look and see if you are seeing closed captioning. It is on most syndicated shows, network and 100% on our newscasts. If you could watch several different type shows, news, network, syndicated and let me know yes or no and type of receiver, that would great.

Thanks

Charles Layno
Transmitter Supervisor
FOX8 WGHP/WGHP-DT
336-821-1144
clayno@wghp.com

foxeng

09-14-02, 03:56 PM

I went into Walmart on Battleground this afternoon and in the Electronics section was a Phillips 43" rear projection HDTV for $1700! I was shocked and amazed. I told the wife it must be official now that DTV is here. Walmart is selling HDTV's. They only had one I saw, but it was turned on with some substandard video that looked just awful! I didn't even ask if they had any 1080i sources. I knew they wouldn't have a clue what I was talking about!

J. L.

09-16-02, 07:53 AM

Charles,

There is hope for the Greensboro buying public yet.

Yesterday, I visited Sears in Friendly-Shopping-Center. It appears they are NOT making the same mistake as Best-Buy. Their TV dept has got their act together.

Sears has a wonderful sales display with the HD Net demo channel fed to every set that could accept a HD signal.

Both CRT and LCD RPTV as well as large direct-view sets were represented. Clearly, they were fed 1080i, (some of the less expensive sets were not true 1080i displays... and it showed.. on the other hand, they all looked much better than standard definition.) They also had about 5 or six plasma screen sets with a HD demo loop.

People were just in awe looking at the images and, believe it or not, I was not hounded by the salespersons. (they were all busy helping folks who were buying!)

Prices were decent, from about $1,700 (CRT RPTV) up to $7,999 (Plasma). There was something at every price in between.

Unfortunately, they did not have any set-top-box for OTA reception, only satellite reception was offered (and sold).

Your station needs to get Sears to work on their OTA box availability.

J. L.

PS.
If I was a manager at Best-Buy (worst floor display) or Circuit-City (not as bad, but nowhere near as nice as Sears), I would be worried. Their customers are not inclined or tempted to buy, not when the set's pictures are breaking up so badly and showing so poorly.

foxeng

09-16-02, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by J. L.
Charles,

There is hope for the Greensboro buying public yet.

Yesterday, I visited Sears in Friendly-Shopping-Center. It appears they are NOT making the same mistake as Best-Buy. Their TV dept has got their act together.

I read an article last week that Sears was teaming up with Samsung and Dish (wish I could remember which site I saw it on) and they would be pushing the HDTV sets. I didn't think they would have it set up so fast or I would have gone by and seen it.

Sears is not my favorite place to shop. I have had too many bad experiences with them on availability and customer service and I cringe to think I would have to buy a set from them! I haven't bought anything from them in over 10 years and I haven't been in a Sears in over 9 years. I guess I will just have to go by see what they have. I have said that I will NOT buy a set until I see it in 1080i and no one around here has had anything in 1080i, but if Sears does have 1080i up, then I will go look at what they have and then buy it somewhere else! (Yeah, I hate Sears that much and it is all over $10 for a manual that I never got, nor the refund I was promised. I just got tired of fighting them.)

foxeng

09-16-02, 08:22 AM

I found the article but couldn't find the link. Sorry for the length.

------------------------

Samsung, Sears and CBS Expand Offering of College Sports Broadcast in HDTV

Unique Marketing Agreement Provides HDTV Programming and Increased Profile for
HDTV Through In-Store Promotion

RIDGEFIELD PARK, N.J., Sept. 5 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Samsung Electronics
America, Sears, Roebuck and Co. and CBS Television announced today an
expanded partnership that will again allow consumers to enjoy a full season
of college sports broadcast in HDTV (high definition digital television).
Following the success of the very first full season of college football games
broadcast in HDTV in 2001, football broadcasts will expand from 12 to 15
games, and, for the first time, two regular season college basketball games
will be added to the lineup. This programming is in addition to CBS' recently
announced primetime HDTV programming schedule, sponsored in part by Samsung.

Samsung, a leader in DTV (digital television) solutions, and Sears have also
partnered to produce the "HDTV Game Day" promotion in which Sears' full- line
stores across the U.S. will show a high level game each week during the
regular season on a Samsung HDTV. The in-store broadcasts will be shown in a
setting that allows consumers to compare the experience of a HDTV broadcast
with that of regular television, better understand the benefits and build
acceptance for the transition to DTV.

The HDTV college sports broadcast schedule kicks off on Sept. 7, 2002 with
live coverage of the Miami vs. Florida football match-up and culminates on
Dec. 21, 2002 with a HD broadcast of the basketball showdown between UCLA and
Kansas. In between, weekly broadcasts of CBS' college football coverage will
air in HDTV. Other marquee football games include Florida vs. Tennessee on
Sept. 21, 2002; Miami vs. Tennessee on Nov. 9, 2002; the SEC Championship
game from the Georgia Dome in Atlanta on Dec. 7, 2002; and the Florida vs.
Maryland basketball contest on Dec. 14, 2002.

"Samsung is leading the transition to DTV and we are pleased to once again
team up with CBS and Sears to deliver exciting HD content for general
consumers," said John Garrison, Executive Vice President, Sales & Marketing,
Samsung Electronics America. "The HDTV Game Day' event makes Sears stores the
destination every Saturday for many consumers' first exposure to DTV. We're
confident that once they experience Samsung's HDTV, they'll make the decision
to take the experience home."

"HDTV is here to stay and Sears intends to be the best destination for
consumers who are shopping for a home theater system," said Ray Brown, Vice
President of Consumer Electronics for Sears. "Sears' introduction of the
largest selection of thin-screen plasma and LCD TV brands combined with this
type of HDTV programming, make Sears THE place to come for your home theater
needs."

"Joining with Samsung and Sears to broadcast a second consecutive season of
high definition college football to our audience is yet another major step in
CBS' on-going, industry-leading efforts to bring the extraordinary HD viewing
experience to America's television viewers," said Sean McManus, President,
CBS Sports. "Over the 16 consecutive weekends of this schedule, viewers will
have an unparalleled opportunity to partake of the transforming viewing
experience that is HDTV."

HDTV fulfils the full promise of digital television, with six times the
resolution of current analog television. CBS will be using the highest form
of HDTV, which is composed of 1080 lines and 1920 picture elements per line,
and which creates a picture with 2.0 million picture elements. This season
CBS will also be adding HDTV slow motion instant replay to the broadcast.
This will further enhance the HD viewing experience by providing super sharp
images during stop action and slow motion scenes.

Samsung has been making cutting-edge digital entertainment technology an
affordable reality for today's consumer by offering a broad selection of HDTV
monitors to meet a variety of tastes, needs and budgets. Starting as low as
$699 (after manufacturer's rebate) Samsung's current HDTV lineup includes
models that support the 16:9 widescreen aspect ratio and that are based on
advanced DTV display platforms such as direct view, DLP (Digital Light
Processing), LCD (Liquid Crystal Display) and PDP (Plasma Display Panel)
technologies.

Samsung's direct view DynaFlat HDTV line offers the smartest, most affordable
step to digital television with the breakthrough 27" HD model for $699 (with
manufacturers rebate) and the first 30" widescreen HD model available for
under $1,000. Samsung is the first to market with HDTV monitors enhanced by
Texas Instrument's revolutionary second-generation DLP chip, offering
improved brightness and contrast at a fraction of the cost, depth and weight
of current rear projection sets. The 43" and 50" DLP models offer slim (15.7"
and 18" deep respectively) and light (75lbs and 85lbs respectively) tabletop
HDTV designs for under $4,500. Samsung breaks open the budding LCD flat-panel
TV market with 15" and 17" models in both standard 4:3 and widescreen 16:9
aspect ratios. Engineered as a TV with PC monitor functionality, Samsung's
LCD TVs boast the highest brightness in the category. These flat-panel TV
models convert all signals to progressive scan for a picture that smoothly
handles the fast motion action of sports and start at an MSRP of $1,499.
Samsung also has on offer two (42" and 50") PDP based HDTV monitors designed
for the consumer market. Samsung's ultra-thin PDPs measure 3.5" deep and
employ a unique fan-less design for a more enjoyable noise-free operation.
Prices for Samsung's plasmas start at an MSRP of $6,999.

Whether an HDTV broadcast source comes via an over-the-air signal (ATSC),
satellite or a cable source, Samsung's monitors are ready to unleash the full
potential of HDTV content with the addition of a set top box. Samsung
currently offers two ATSC set top box models based on its award winning
technology, the SIR-T151 ($499 MSRP), and the SIR-T165 ($799 MSRP). In
addition, Samsung offers the SIR-S70 ($99 MSRP) and SIR-S75 ($199 MSRP)
direct to home satellite receivers plus the SIR-TS160 ($699 MSRP), which
tunes ATSC, NTSC and digital satellite programming from DIRECTV.

Samsung is well noted for being in the vanguard of DTV development having
introduced the world's first professional DTV receiver with the Harris
Corporation, having launched the first fully integrated HDTV set in 1998, and
for its early datacasting demonstrations including the first pre-paid music
download service and e-coupon demonstrations at NAB 2000 and DASE-based
demonstrations at NAB 2002.

The in-store Sears broadcasts will be possible via satellite broadcasters
EchoStar Communications Corporation who will provide CBS's HDTV signal
exclusively to a Samsung HDTV unit in every Sears store.

Scooper

09-16-02, 09:18 AM

Saturday - I dropped by Raleigh's new Mall (Triangle Town Center), and dropped by Sears (specifically to check out the TV's). WOW !! Now if only they had OTA DTV showing as well. They had sets from a 30 inch 16:9 (480i 480p and 1080i) (I think this was a Samsung) at just over $1K to Plasma screens at $5999 (there may have been some even more expensive sets, but I wasn't buying anyway). The salesman even got a question on the D* / E* merger and gave an accurate answer (that thud was my jaw hitting the floor). I know for sure that I saw the Dish HD Demo channel, and some Discovery HD Theater.

My "issues" with Sears came more from "snobby" appliance salesmen in the DC area.

talosman

09-17-02, 02:22 PM

hey FoxEng,

side question... why Fox not showing FoxBox on Saturday morning? Can I get that via Satellite?

Also, I never look into satellie, does DirectTV, and Dish Network carries more HD channels than cable? What about prime time shows? is it in HD mode too?

Talos

foxeng

09-17-02, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by talosman
why Fox not showing FoxBox on Saturday morning? Can I get that via Satellite?

According to our programming people, FOX Network doesn't offer it in this market to anyone and it is not available on satellite. It is an affiliates feed only.

Also, I never look into satellite, does DirectTV, and Dish Network carries more HD channels than cable? What about prime time shows? is it in HD mode too?

As far as the HD prime time shows, no, not yet. I can't speak for Dish, I own Directv, they have HBO, SHO, HDNET, DISCOVERY and I heard they are looking at another Discovery network for HD to make five to make the FCC happy. Bandwidth is the big issue on DBS so until the networks offer more programming, the satellite companies would rather offer something that is HD most or all the time. All the HD programming on Directv are on one satellite, 110 degrees. I have the three satellite dish for HD, but I don't have the HD receiver yet. I suspect that Dish has something similar.

foxeng

09-17-02, 03:03 PM

I broke down and went by Sears in Friendly last night. They have a nice display of HD monitors. It looked to be about 35 of them! All types and sizes, tube to plasma to RP. They were running the Dish demo loop and it looks like it was done by WRAL. I saw a lot of their stuff and the HD host were at all Triangle venues and at the end were credits and WRAL Digital was credited.

The only thing wrong I saw was they were feeding everything off of one feed and if the picture had lots of movement, the picture suffered, but if the picture was still or not much movement, it looked great. The salesman did try to sell me a Terk 55 antenna for a HD monitor with no digital OTA box! I did see a Samsung SIR-T151 under one of the monitors on display so they most have some, but the sales people don't know it.

I love to go into these places undercover and then start asking questions. I look like a dumb (well I am!:D ) hick and then spring on them. I get the most fantastic feeling when I do that. It leaves them always wondering with the wildest looks!

Beware the fat dumb looking hick!

foxeng

09-18-02, 07:46 PM

Cable glitch shows potential power of copy-blocking

http://www.siliconvalley.com/mld/siliconvalley/news/local/4097198.htm

foxeng

09-25-02, 07:38 AM

I had hoped that the new software update for the stretched 4:3 would have been here already, but it has not. I was under the impression that it was to ship 2 weeks ago. I was talking to the manufacturer today and they confirmed it had not shipped yet. They were waiting on the new manual addendum's to be printed and as soon as that happened, they would be shipping. They were hoping that it would ship next week. They said the CD-Rom's were sitting there and I said "send me one now!" Well that didn't go very well.

foxeng

09-25-02, 07:49 AM

I got a call yesterday from TW about DTV. Looks like they are gearing up to put the local DTVs on cable sometime around first of the year. They are just getting their equipment together now for receiving the DTV stations in the area so those who love cable will have the DTVs to watch as well.

jacksonian

09-25-02, 03:45 PM

foxeng,
Do you know what TW's plans are as far as having more boxes available? When I emailed them a couple of months ago asking why they didn't advertise that they were carrying HD HBO, they said that they didn't have enough STBs and so they didn't want to create a demand they couldn't meet. I was also curious about DVI outputs on any new boxes.

foxeng

09-25-02, 04:34 PM

Originally posted by jacksonian
foxeng,
Do you know what TW's plans are as far as having more boxes available? When I emailed them a couple of months ago asking why they didn't advertise that they were carrying HD HBO, they said that they didn't have enough STBs and so they didn't want to create a demand they couldn't meet. I was also curious about DVI outputs on any new boxes.

Man, wished I had checked this earlier. I just got off the phone with the guy about an analog problem (video was WAY hot - turned out to be a demod problem at the head in). I will try and remember to ask the next time I talk to him.

jacksonian

09-25-02, 04:40 PM

Thanks, that would be awesome.

Daryl L

09-25-02, 05:56 PM

foxeng,I just got off the phone with the guy about an analog problem (video was WAY hot - turned out to be a demod problem at the head in).What do you mean by the analog video being WAY hot?

I ask this because lately(last couple months) I've notice many(not all) of my analog cable channels apear dark with flesh tones looking dark pinkish red. I know it's not my tv because it's not like this on all analog channels nor the digital channels. I checked my pictures settings with VE and Avia. I get cable from Lumberton NC which comes out of Fayetteville NC.

foxeng

09-25-02, 11:26 PM

Originally posted by Daryl L
foxeng,What do you mean by the analog video being WAY hot?

I ask this because lately(last couple months) I've notice many(not all) of my analog cable channels apear dark with flesh tones looking dark pinkish red. I know it's not my tv because it's not like this on all analog channels nor the digital channels. I checked my pictures settings with VE and Avia. I get cable from Lumberton NC which comes out of Fayetteville NC.

I grew up in Fayetteville! Go Byrd Eagels!

Hot video refers to video that is too bright. When light color or bright scenes are shown, the picture washes out and you may here what is called "sync buzz."

Daryl L

09-26-02, 11:40 AM

Ahhhhh yes, I have two channels like that. Ones is local UPN and the other is TNN. A bright scene or one with a lot of white background comes on the image starts to wiggle or zig zag and buzzzzzzzz. :)

From Fayetteville huh, kewl. I'm from just 45 miles south in Pembroke.

foxeng

09-26-02, 11:47 AM

Originally posted by Daryl L
From Fayetteville huh, kewl. I'm from just 45 miles south in Pembroke.

I also worked in Lumberton from 82-85 at WAGR/WJSK. I hear that WJSK is now WFNC-FM and WAGR is run out of Fayetteville by another company. I was the Engineer that swapped WAGR and WTSB from 580 and 1340. I also was the Engineer that put WKML on th air in 85. Man, too many years ago!

talosman

09-28-02, 12:09 AM

Foxeng,

the news about TW and DTV is very exciting! something to look forward to next year. Like my digital box from TW, I signed up back in July of 2001, and I finally got it around January 2002.

Talos

J. L.

09-29-02, 10:45 AM

I too waited several months before getting an SA 2000HD box. When my turn in the queue arrived, the installer arrived with the newer SA3000HD box, but since it did not have RBG outputs he had to go back to the office to get the older unit that did support RGB.

At the time I initially inquired, they had a waiting list of over 250. It looked like they were only doing one or two installations a day per crew and seemed to only have two crews doing HD installations. Rollout has been very slow. I'm not sure if they are advertising the service even now for fear of having too much demand.

I did have one issue... the box they supplied did not output negative sync. I had to build a sync inverter to get the unit to supply a signal my Barco 1208 was happy with.

It was worth the wait... The picture is great. Now that local HD content is predicted for January, I can put an HDTV tuner purchase on the back-burner (again) till I see what happens.

J. L.

foxeng

09-29-02, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by J. L.
I too waited several months before getting an SA 2000HD box. When my turn in the queue arrived, the installer arrived with the newer SA3000HD box, but since it did not have RBG outputs he had to go back to the office to get the older unit that did support RGB.

When I was talking to their head end guy last week he did mention something about deploying the "Explorer box" in homes. It was the last one mentioned in a line of boxes that started with the 2000 and went through the 3100 then he said Explorer. Is that the box you are talking about?

It was worth the wait... The picture is great. Now that local HD content is predicted for January, I can put an HDTV tuner purchase on the back-burner (again) till I see what happens.

Boy, very SORRY to hear that! ;)

Daryl L

09-29-02, 03:33 PM

foxeng,

Dang! AM radio? I haven't tuned to an AM station since around 1977/78. :D

J. L.

09-29-02, 05:01 PM

foxeng,

1. Yes, the unit I have is a an "Explorer 2000HD". It is the older unit in the series. The replacement (3000HD) does not support RGBHV output, only component output.

2. Currently, I am building my surround sound speakers. I've almost gotten the center channel finished, next will be the L/R and rear channels. The parts for those are the next major purchase. Unfortunately, I can't purchase everything I need at once without it making a serious dent in the wallet.

Since I already have HDTV (although limited by program material on HBO, SHO, and PBS demo loop carried by TWC) and use my theater for DVD as often as cable, but do not yet have surround sound in place, it is higher on my wish list than an OTA box. I do hope the newer boxes are less expensive than the current generation.

I do support your station, and actually visited it once, but not receiving it off the air in HDTV (yet)

I'm not too far from you, in Summerfield, about a mile or so from what used to be "Lake Higgens," before they drained it, so I expect that reception OTA will be great. I'm pretty high up at about 830 feet above sea level so I expect I will not need too much of an antenna to get HDTV off the air. (see... it is still on my list)

J. L.

foxeng

09-29-02, 05:31 PM

Originally posted by J. L.
I do support your station, and actually visited it once, but not receiving it off the air in HDTV (yet)

My wallet thanks you!

I'm not too far from you, in Summerfield, about a mile or so from what used to be "Lake Higgens," before they drained it, so I expect that reception OTA will be great. I'm pretty high up at about 830 feet above sea level so I expect I will not need too much of an antenna to get HDTV off the air. (see... it is still on my list)

At our low power you might not get us if you are down behind the ridge. The land at Westridge and Battleground is at 940 ft. We have great trouble with microwave shots past Westridge and we normally have to use our sat truck past there, but Channel 35 is only 600 MHz and not 2 GHz as our microwave and that may make all the difference.

J. L.

09-29-02, 06:00 PM

foxeng,

Here is an interesting question...

What would I see if I tuned a old analog TV to UHF channel 35? Would I see a "pattern" of modulation from the digital signal that would be different than looking at "snow" from an unused channel? Would I be able to tell I am receiving something? (I know it would not be demodulated as NTSC, and there would be no audio, but the image on the screen might tell me something if it falls within the 3 Mhz bandwidth of the analog channel)

I still have an outside TV antenna and it has a UHF set of elements connected to a cable leading to my den TV. From what I can tell, your channel 35 transmitter would be southeast of me. I'm nearly even with the top of "pleasant ridge" and just might have a chance of receiving something.

I can turn the antenna and give it a try if you think I might see something loooking like a digital signal. (you are not the only one with an armstrong rotator).

J. L.

Scooper

09-29-02, 08:15 PM

FWIW, when I tune into the "Digital Channels" in the Raleigh area, what I see on my screen is snow - and it is even "snowier"/"whiter" than a weak NTSC channel. Not a trace of anything resembling a picture. YMMV.

foxeng

09-30-02, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by J. L.
What would I see if I tuned a old analog TV to UHF channel 35?

Not really. Since there is absolutely NOTHING that an analog receiver would recognize, it is just snow. I have noticed on an analog receiver at the transmitter the snow is a tad bit darker, but when I get away from the transmitter, even that goes away. I suspect it is just receiver overload at the transmitter site.

Without a spectrum analyzer or an 8VSB receiver, (DTV receiver), you will not know if you can receive it or not. The pattern on a spectrum analyser is pretty definitive. The signal looks just like a square wave where the NTSC signal has two very definitive signal peaks, one for the AM video carrier and one for the FM audio carrier.

PamW

09-30-02, 07:38 PM

I talked to Deborah Hooper on the 20th of Sept. and asked her about WFMY and TWC. She reported to me they were currently in talks with them and hopefully we should know something soon!

J.L, I have the Explorer 3100HD - Life is grand on HBO and the PBS loop! I just hope to see the locals join in soon!

Pam

talosman

10-01-02, 12:29 AM

I also have a 3100HD at home, this is actually my third one with TWC. First one is DOA, no audio out from the RCA ports. Second unit went dead about 2 months ago. At least I don't have to wait in line for a replacement unit.

Talos

J. L.

10-01-02, 05:47 AM

foxeng,

I think that I have a wideband receiver with an "S-meter" that will tune to 600 MHz, although I'm not sure how sensitive it is at that frequency.

I might find an adapter to hook it up to the coax leading to the outside TV antenna and see if the "S-meter" shows anything. (Unfortunately, I do not have a spectrum-analyzer that I can use to look at the 600 MHz signal)

I'll let you know if I can find an adapter or two (SMC to F is NOT very common) and see any signal on the s-meter.

J. L.

foxeng

10-01-02, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by J. L.
I think that I have a wideband receiver with an "S-meter" that will tune to 600 MHz, although I'm not sure how sensitive it is at that frequency.

It needs to be at least 6 MHz wide because that is the width of the 8VSB signal. Anything less and it may not show a signal. Be sure you know what you are looking for and at also. WXLV-DT is 560-566 (ch 29), WSLS-DT Lynchburg is 566-572 (ch 30), WXII is 572-578 (ch 31), WUNL-DT is 578-584 (ch 32), WUPN-DT is at 584-590 (ch 33), WSOC-DT is 590-596 (ch 34) and WCNC in Charlotte (analog) and WPXR-DT Roanoke is on 602-608 (ch 36). Channel 37 (608-614) is open. WPXR analog is on 614-620 (ch 38).

Channel 35 is 596-602.

I'll let you know if I can find an adapter or two (SMC to F is NOT very common) and see any signal on the s-meter.

Electronic Distributors in Winston-Salem usually has a good selection of connectors and they will ship if you don't feel like driving to Winston! They also sell antennas, but I am not sure which ones. I guess next time I am in there, I need to talk to them about that.

foxeng

10-10-02, 07:56 AM

We are still waiting for the software update that will allow WGHP-DT to pull the stretched 4:3 back down to 4:3 with curtains. I am not sure exactly why we are waiting now, but it has something to do with how the system was purchased and we have to get the update through the "dealer" and not the factory, is the best way to put it in layman's terms. I was talking to the "dealer" Tuesday and told them point blank I had viewers calling about it and even though there are several software updates I need to have right now from them (DTV demod, closed captioning, etc), THAT ONE is top of the list and anything they could do to get it out the door would be appreciated. Silence came back so I don't know. I have many issues with this "dealer" on their customer service, and they are very aware of my unhappiness (which might be the reason for the delay, who knows!).

And you thought you had problems dealing with ISF and cablevision techs! ;)

Charles Layno
FOX8 WGHP/WGHP-DT

PamW

10-13-02, 06:01 PM

Charles,

I feel your pain!!!!
I have just sent my bi-weekly email to TWC asking about their intentions in broadcasting the local affiliates in HD. I'll let you all know what their answer is; that is if I GET an answer.

I was at a series of seminars last week at NOW! Audio Video. Pretty much layman stuff, but interestingly enough, TWC (who was invited to attend and talk) declined the invitation. The satellite lady had a monopoly going, for sure!

I just don't know what they are thinking at TWC ! This definitely does not bring in more HD customers - for heaven's sake, most folks don't even know TWC has the HD boxes here!

OK, I've ranted enough - I feel much better now.

Pam

foxeng

10-28-02, 02:28 PM

I just got a call from an antenna installer looking for business. He is in Greensboro. I know nothing about him, so "buyer beware." He says he used to work for Now A/V as a salesman and installer and has gone out on his own for the last 6 months or so. He seems to be a nice guy on the phone, but as I said, I know nothing about him. Use him at your own risk. He says he will install anywhere in the Triad.

THIS IS ***NOT*** AN ENDORSEMENT FOR HIM. I TAKE ***NO*** RESPONSIBILITY IF HE DOESN'T WORK OUT FOR YOU. FWIW

Here is his info:

Audio Video Installations
Roger Goodwin
292-4231
312-1690

Edisto

11-03-02, 03:52 PM

Just checked back on this forum for the first time in quite a few months. I have been enjoying my Pioneer SD582 even though I returned my OTA HD receiver. I was able to pick up quite a few channels using just the RS double bowtie here in Stoney Creek, but I couldn't see spending that much money on the box for the available content at the time. I did just call TWC after reading the end of this thread and they are coming out on Tuesday to bring and set-up a HD box. They did not have a back-log and they have a special where you get HBO, Showtime and the digital tier for 1/2 price for the first 3 months. Now for my question. Should I ask for the older type box or the newer one? Oh, another question, how do I tell my wife that I have spent more money on electonic stuff???
Ron

PamW

11-04-02, 03:31 PM

Get the newer one, especially if it is the 3100 - the earlier model had some bugs in the system.

Have fun, good luck, and it's now time for me to email TWC again!

Pam

foxeng

11-05-02, 10:47 AM

After a LONG WAIT, the new software for the aspect ratio converter is here! It arrived today. This will allow us to change from stretched 4:3 to 4:3 with side curtains when not in network 16:9. He have to come up with a USB CR-ROM drive, that the IS guys are getting today sometime, so hopefully tomorrow or Thursday, we have the update in and those with 16:9 sets will not have 4:3 stretched pictures from WGHP-DT.

Charles Layno
Transmitter Supervisor
FOX8 WGHP/WGHP-DT

MrPhred

11-12-02, 10:43 AM

As I reported on September 9, I've been using a borrowed set of Radio Shack 15-1862 amplified rabbit ears to feed a Samsung SIR-T151 for viewing on my Pioneer Elite. By carefully adjusting the antenna, I could receive several of the locals well enough for viewing. (By carefully, I mean to within 3/4 of an inch! If I was off by an inch, I'd lose reception on many of the channels.)

I've waited since September for my Channel Master rotor to finally arrive. I selected a Channel Master 4228 antenna (the highest passive gain, consumer grade, UHF antenna I could find), and had it mounted about 7 feet above the ridgeline of my house. I needed about 50 feet of lead-in to bring the signal inside.

I was sorely disappointed. The only new stations I picked up were WGHP and WDBJ. And, they weren't consistently reliable. Reception of WFMY was actually worse than with the rabbit ears!

In despiration, I added a Winegard AP-8275 preamp (28dB gain) about 3 feet below the antenna. (I'd originally wanted a Channel Master 7775. But, it was out of stock, and I was already sick of waiting for Channel Master parts.)

Oh, what a difference that preamp made! I now reliably receive these stations:

-WXLV 29 (45-1) ABC
-WXII 31 (missing PSIP, should be 12-n) NBC
-WUNL 32 (26-1, 26-3, 26-4, 26-5) PBS, with program guide.
-WUPN 33 (48-2) UPN
-WGHP 35 (8-1) FOX
- WFMY 51 (2-1) CBS, primetime only, plus one afternoon soap, with program guide, and very responsive and helpful transmitter manager.
- WDBJ 18 (7-1, 7-2) CBS, with program guide, and color bars and test tone on 7-2. What a great idea! I ought to drive to Roanoke and buy those guys a beer! Plus, it made me nostalgic. I used to watch their station as a kid.
-WSLS 30 (missing PSIP, should be 10-n) NBC
-WUNC 59 (4-1, 4-3, 4-4, 4-5) PBS, ocassionally intermittent in bad weather.

I'm one happy boy! I've scratched my plans to pay TWC for the privledge of watching the HD locals (if they ever get around to carrying them in 2003).

Even though I receive all of these stations reliably, they never kick the signal strength meter on my Samsung past about 50% of full scale.

I can also get glimpses of several of several Charlotte stations, but can't lock on good enough for viewing. Looking around my 40-year-old neighborhood (near PTI), I see several legacy antennas, all mounted back in the 60's, on masts much taller than mine. I think they may have done this to better receive signals down in the heavily wooded hole where my neighborhood is situated. So, I think I'll follow suit, and try adding another 5 or 10 feet of mast.

I'm not going to be happy until I can receive more stations than 'foxeng' with his antenna propped up against his deck ;)

Do you guys think that raising my antenna another 5 or 10 feet will have much of an impact?

foxeng

11-12-02, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by MrPhred
In despiration, I added a Winegard AP-8275 preamp (28dB gain) about 3 feet below the antenna. (I'd originally wanted a Channel Master 7775. But, it was out of stock, and I was already sick of waiting for Channel Master parts.)

Who are you getting your parts from?

I'm not going to be happy until I can receive more stations than 'foxeng' with his antenna propped up against his deck ;)

That will not be hard! It is always: LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION!

Do you guys think that raising my antenna another 5 or 10 feet will have much of an impact?

It will help only if that is the height you need to get over something. I would think in the 15 ft or higher range would be better.

MrPhred

11-13-02, 09:39 AM

Who are you getting your parts from?
Davis Antenna (good guy) who, in turn, gets them from Dow Electronics.
It is always: LOCATION LOCATION LOCATION!
I may have to move to your neighborhood to receive as many stations as you. Think your neighbors would welcome an aging hippie software geek with a large collection of loud toys and ugly antennas? ;)

Actually, I'm sitting at one of the highest elevations in Guilford County. But, there are small ridges to the south and east of my house. The woods are so thick that I can't see to tell if my antenna is above them or not. It's close. My antenna is about 25 feet above ground level. I'll probably only be able to raise it about 5-10 more feet. Any higher, and it will get tangled in the limbs of the oak trees that overhand my house.

Still, I'm tempted to try it. It's the cheapest modification I can think of (provided I don't fall off the roof - that could get expensive).

jacksonian

11-13-02, 03:28 PM

Have you thought about running in up that tall Oak tree and attaching it there?

MrPhred

11-13-02, 04:47 PM

When I was a younger man, I worked high steel for Chicago Bridge & Iron, and wouldn't have given a second thought to climbing up in those trees. But, I'm older now, and have caught on to the nasty things gravity can do to a clumbsy old man.

I think I'd better stay out of them trees ;)

jacksonian

11-13-02, 05:12 PM

Teenagers are invincible, you should find one who needs party money. They'll do anything, especially if you offer to videotape it for them so they can show their daredevil friends (a la Johnny Knoxville)! But then there's the liability. Darn.

foxeng

11-26-02, 09:29 PM

I got a call today at work from Greensboro TWC. They are still on for sometime after January 2003 for the launch of the local digital stations. They were calling and confirming information and specs. They have ordered the equipment and are just waiting for it to come in and install it. When that happens, the locals will be in the 500's. No specific channels have been determined yet.

PamW

11-27-02, 08:10 AM

Thank you for the info! I have also heard that we should be getting something thru TWC in Jan. (I saw a nice plug for your Fox 8 digital setup this AM by the "Gadget Guru" - cool!)

Pam

foxeng

11-27-02, 07:53 PM

I continue to get things ready for FOX network pass through. Our new digital microwave was to have been shipped today, but I was not able to get confirmation. If it did ship, we should have it Monday or Tuesday and then start to install it. That may take several days depending on many things.

I am just about completed with the digital switcher (well, that is what I call it, it is really just a small switch box that will switch between network and the upconverted signal). That should be completed Monday. If all goes well, maybe by next weekend, (first full weekend in December) we will have it all running.

Stay tuned.

foxeng

11-28-02, 07:22 AM

To the viewers of the Greensboro/High Point/Winston-Salem, NC Nielsen market, Happy Thanksgiving from all of us at FOX8 WGHP/WGHP-DT 35!

scaramastra

12-01-02, 08:48 PM

"Time Warner Cable of Greensboro is reporting they will have local digital signals available January 1 2003. No report if they will cost extra."-NCHDTV.COM

I am new to this HDTV thing, so I was wondering what exactly this means for me living in Greensboro. I understand that HBO-HD, SHOW-HD, and the PBS "Demo Loop" are available through TWC, but I am a little confused what "local" digital signals mean.

Does it mean ABC, NBC, CBS, WB in HD...? This latest devolopment doesn't assure all those stations will be included, or does it, or can one even tell? I just got a HD-ready set about two months ago, and am very eager to "test" it out. :p

MrPhred

12-02-02, 02:46 PM

Scaramastra, nearly all of the local stations (WFMY-CBS, WXII-NBC, WXLV-ABC, WGPH-FOX, etc.) have been transmitting digital signals over the air (via antenna, in the UHF band) for a pretty good while now. But, so far, Time Warner has not yet begun carrying the digital signals from these stations. They just carry the old analog stuff. I've yet to hear an "official" date for when Time Warner is going to begin carrying the digital feeds from these local stations. All the rumors place it sometime in early 2003. In all likelyhood, they'll carry most, if not all, the local digital stations, so all the major networks will be covered. I doubt they'll charge anything extra (beyond their digital tier charges) to view these stations.

Of course, you don't have to pay TWC a penny to view these digital locals. You can just buy an antenna (and, if necessary, a set-topbox) and view them for free. The quality of true HDTV programming will blow your socks off. Once you've seen it, you'll never want to go back.

foxeng

12-07-02, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by MrPhred
Of course, you don't have to pay TWC a penny to view these digital locals. You can just buy an antenna (and, if necessary, a set-topbox) and view them for free. The quality of true HDTV programming will blow your socks off. Once you've seen it, you'll never want to go back.

TWC did say to me that they would be compressing the locals which is different than waht they told me earlier.

foxeng

12-07-02, 09:44 PM

Well after a hard fight for equipment and now the darn ice storm, tonight WGHP-DT 35 sent its first 16:9 pictures with FOX network. It looked very good for 480p. It wasn't HD, nor do I mean to imply it is (because it isn't), but there is a difference in PQ improvement over the 480i upconverted material.

Since the Carolina Panthers are playing on CBS on Sunday, I hope the Redskin's game we will have at 1pm will be one of the 16:9 games. I will be very interested to see what the NFL looks like in 16:9!

The power fluctions during the ice storm damaged the analog to digital converter for analog material so until a new one can be shipped in, there will be no right channel audio for the local programming, but network, commericals and the local news will have both channels.

foxeng

12-16-02, 10:52 PM

I did a scan this evening and I see channel 61, WLXI is on the air on DT 43 with a decent signal, not great but it hasn't broken up yet either. They have a temp low power authorization of 9000 watts at about 500 ft on the same tower as WTWB, WXLV-DT and WUPN-TV/DT.

Don, you know anymore about it?

foxeng

12-17-02, 01:05 PM

Just got off the phone with TWC and the following local DTs will be on TWC sometime today.

WGHP-DT 510
WFMY-DT 520
WXLV-DT 530
WXII-DT 540

These are all that they are planning to put on for the time being. Those with digital cable boxes you might want to check it out and let us know.

Charles Layno
FOX8 WGHP/WGHP-DT

PamW

12-17-02, 10:23 PM

Gonna go check now...
I'll report back tomorrow!
Pam

scaramastra

12-17-02, 10:26 PM

11:52am - 12/18 - I haven't seen them yet, but i'll keep you updated...

rob

I recieve the same message on 510 that you all do, and I get nothing on 520, 530, and 540. I just suscribed last weekend, so I hope the new price increase includes these channels, as I was told it would.

PamW

12-18-02, 07:28 AM

I got a message on 510 saying that I needed to subscribe! I am calling TWC today to see what's up with that. Also, 520,530, 540 - no data at all - just ????

Pam

J. L.

12-18-02, 07:42 AM

I have the same results here...

510 has a page listing an 800 number to call to "order service"

The other channels (520, 530, and 540) do not seem to have any programming on them at all.

They just raised the rates, I sure hope we don't have to order service to get local HDTV content.

J. L.

PamW

12-18-02, 07:43 AM

I'll be calling TWC in an hour or so to check on this matter.

Pam

wdbjbob

12-18-02, 08:48 AM

Don,
Congratulations on getting the new goodies installed, and sympathy on what the ice did to you. WDBJ and WDBJ-DT stayed iced up from Friday through Sunday. We mux both signals here at the studio and send them up to the mountain via digital microwave. The old analog Channel 7 tolerated the ice right well, but DT was doing all kinds of interesting tricks.

scaramastra

12-18-02, 04:42 PM

4:41 pm - 510 Fox (WGHPD), 520 CBS (WFMYD), 530 ABC (WXLVD), and 540 NBC (WXIID) are on...sort of...

oops...THX, for clearing up my problem Foxeng...since WXLV is interlaced that would explain why it shows up on s-video, and I see the other is simply not on until 8. :p

-rob

foxeng

12-18-02, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by scaramastra
4:41 pm - 510 Fox (WGHP), 520 CBS (WFMY), 530 ABC (WXLV), and 540 NBC (WXII) are on...sort of...

520 CBS (WFMY) is showing at the bottom of the screen, but shows no content for the time being, it's just a black screen.

530 ABC (WXLV) shows up, but is viewable through my non-componet video input so I wonder if it is really HD, since no other channels (i.e. HBOs, NBC, Fox, or PBS) will show up through s-video, but 530 will...hmm...I'll see tonight.

rob

Remember, only WGHP-DT and WXLV-DT are 24/7. WGHP-DT is 480p, WXLV is 480i. WXII-DT operates from 4pm to 12:30am at 1080i and WFMY is only on from 12:30pm to 1:30pm and 8pm to 11:30pm in 1080i.

How do the stations that you have seen look?

J. L.

12-18-02, 10:38 PM

They are up and running...

At one point in time, WGHP had no sound, but checking back later, it was OK. As foxeng described, WFMY did not come on the air till 8:00.

Only WGHP has listings in their on-screen program guide. Since the listings are a clone of the analog channel, I expect that it is simply a matter of programming the computer that drives that service.

Now... who do we need to write to at WGHP to ask that the very bright station logo be toned down a bit. With so many users of HDTV sets concerned with burn-in of static images, I can't imagine the station managers being entirely unresponsive. I do think that they would want to encourage lengthy viewing of their stations material rather than short duration for fear of harm to our expensive HDTV.

J. L.

foxeng

12-19-02, 07:40 AM

Originally posted by J. L.
Now... who do we need to write to at WGHP to ask that the very bright station logo be toned down a bit. With so many users of HDTV sets concerned with burn-in of static images, I can't imagine the station managers being entirely unresponsive. I do think that they would want to encourage lengthy viewing of their stations material rather than short duration for fear of harm to our expensive HDTV.

Here are two names:

Karen Adams, President/General Manager kadams@wghp.com
Council Bradshaw, VP of Creative Services cbradshaw@wghp.com

foxeng

12-19-02, 07:46 AM

Originally posted by J. L.
Only WGHP has listings in their on-screen program guide. Since the listings are a clone of the analog channel, I expect that it is simply a matter of programming the computer that drives that service.

That is interesting. We do not have our OTA EPG running yet. Of course I have the new Samsung SIR-TS160 Directv/OTA receiver and the DT stations have EPG listings (even those that aren't using PSIP are at least listed on the correct virtual channels) but our EPG from analog isn't listed through Directv.

Go figure!

era

12-19-02, 06:14 PM

I'm glad that the local channels are on HDTV via TWC, but very sad to see that only one of them (WXII) is widescreen. The others cannot be watched because the thick black bars on each side of the screen will burn my rear-projection Toshiba's screen. How sad. Almost as stupid as their logo-bugs. Finally we get HTDV. But we cannot watch most of it because the silly people don't know how to broadcast it without damaging our sets. Maybe over time they'll wise up, but I'm not hopeful.:confused:

jacksonian

12-19-02, 07:03 PM

Only one is widescreen? Huh? They're showing HDTV in 4:3? Please explain.

era

12-19-02, 07:08 PM

All I know is that I get the ordinary TV aspect ratio on all the new HTDV TWC channels, except WXII (Which is full 16x9). HBO is also usually 16x9, but Showtime varies--more often than not it has black bars on the sides.

foxeng

12-20-02, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by era
I'm glad that the local channels are on HDTV via TWC, but very sad to see that only one of them (WXII) is widescreen. The others cannot be watched because the thick black bars on each side of the screen will burn my rear-projection Toshiba's screen. How sad. Almost as stupid as their logo-bugs. Finally we get HTDV. But we cannot watch most of it because the silly people don't know how to broadcast it without damaging our sets. Maybe over time they'll wise up, but I'm not hopeful.:confused:

FOX has most of its prime time and at least one NFL game a week in widescreen. CBS has just about all it's prime time in widescreen and NBC has quite a bit in widescreen. Please remember we are early in the game on this and we can only transmit what is sent to us, but all the local DTV stations on cable except WXLV DT transmits in widescreen even when there are no widescreen shows available hence the side bars. We can stretch the 4:3 picture to widescreen all the time, but then people complain that the picture looks unnatural, so we leave it in 4:3 and add the side bars. WXII DT is the only one to stretch their 4:3 to 16:9 all the time.

Would grey sidebars be more appealing?

era

12-20-02, 11:13 AM

Yes, gray bars would ease the burn-in problem. However, I favor WXII's solution, even if a few people get confused and complain. After all, if they want the 50-year-old aspect ratio, they can just tune in the non-HDTV version of the channel. HDTV is widescreen, even though some people seem not yet aware of it.

PamW

12-20-02, 04:07 PM

I saw a little CBS last night, and although "Survivor" was side-barred, the HD commercials for CBS were thrilling!!!(And in widescreen). I did notice that WXII was stretched, but I was OK with that. I personally like the gray bars as opposed to the black ones, as that's what my Pioneer Elite does with a 4:3 picture. But I generally watch regular TV in a "Cinema" mode, so I never use the 4:3 mode.

Pam

era

12-20-02, 05:23 PM

Does anyone know (perhaps the engineer?) if Fox plans to broadcast HDTV in the future? I understand they are now broadcasting DVD-level quality. I've noticed that many of my friends simply do not see any significant difference between DVD and HDTV....??!!

foxeng

12-20-02, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by era
Does anyone know (perhaps the engineer?) if Fox plans to broadcast HDTV in the future? I understand they are now broadcasting DVD-level quality. I've noticed that many of my friends simply do not see any significant difference between DVD and HDTV....??!!

There are no current plans to show more than 480p, but these things change all the time and rumors have been flying of late.

foxeng

12-20-02, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by era
Yes, gray bars would ease the burn-in problem. However, I favor WXII's solution, even if a few people get confused and complain. After all, if they want the 50-year-old aspect ratio, they can just tune in the non-HDTV version of the channel. HDTV is widescreen, even though some people seem not yet aware of it.

The problem is there are three ways to do this, and we have already done the 4:3 stretched and no one really liked it, except you. There are the black bars which you are the only one to complain about and the grey bars which we ran for a short time and no one complained about that.

If I use your theory, then things stay as they are since you are the only one to complain.

See the rock and hard place the broadcasters are in until we get more widescreen material? Some one will be unhappy and we just don't know how to solve that quite yet. :)

era

12-20-02, 05:53 PM

I hope it happens. HDTV is too cool to compromise its quality in my view. You're right when you said it's "new" and things are just getting going. I've been waiting so many decades for good-quality TV that those logo bugs (two of them on the PBS Demo channel!) and other compromises like that make me a little crazy!:rolleyes: :mad: :eek:

era

12-20-02, 06:01 PM

Yes, I do sympathize with the dilemma you face, but if nobody was bothered by the gray bars, perhaps that would be a good solution. You would save various people's projection widescreen TV's from destruction. That's a good thing. :)

era

12-20-02, 06:03 PM

I'm surprised that nobody like the widescreen stretch, except me. WXII didn't get to be the most popular station in the Triad by being stupid.:D

PamW

12-20-02, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by era
Yes, I do sympathize with the dilemma you face, but if nobody was bothered by the gray bars, perhaps that would be a good solution. You would save various people's projection widescreen TV's from destruction. That's a good thing. :)

Amen, era!

Another reason I have been watching regular TV in cinema mode is that it crops those inane bars and logos! Please go gray!!!Please go gray!!!:)

Pam

foxeng

12-20-02, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by era
I'm surprised that nobody like the widescreen stretch, except me. WXII didn't get to be the most popular station in the Triad by being stupid.:D

Maybe not. The just released ratings have them as number 3. :eek:

foxeng

12-20-02, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by PamW
Amen, era!

Another reason I have been watching regular TV in cinema mode is that it crops those inane bars and logos! Please go gray!!!Please go gray!!!:)

Pam

We will put grey back up as soon as we get a couple of timing issues taken care of with the digital switcher. That has been an on going project since it was put in several weeks ago.

PamW

12-20-02, 08:25 PM

thanks foxeng! you are the coolest!
Pam

foxeng

12-21-02, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by PamW
thanks foxeng! you are the coolest!
Pam

Well I don't know about that, but we are all in the same boat so to speak. You don't what to expect and we don't know what to give you! We all will just keep muddling around.

Other than Greensboro and High Point, are any of the other TWC areas getting the DT's?

PamW

12-22-02, 09:41 PM

Well, at least we are beginning to muddle around in a forward direction! I thought we would never begin getting these signals! I have emailed and emailed the people at TWC, and I am glad they are finally getting around to working out things with all you station people!

Have a great holiday!

Pam

era

12-23-02, 03:26 AM

Hi Pam,

What is the email address for TWC here in Greensboro? I want to ask them to try to get Marc Cuban's HDNet, and Discovery HD Theater, both of which are supposed to be fantastic. As we all know, the best HTDV picture comes from live action video (like sports) or from HD-videotaped programs (30-frames-per-second, and no weird softeners, gels, guaze over the lens for the aging star, deliberate low light and other "effects" used by movie-makers). So far, the best picture by far on TWC Greensboro's HDTV lineup is the PBS Demo loop, though they seem to feel that putting logo bugs all over it is smart. I've written them, but they don't bother to reply, so I don't donate to them any more. Too bad, the picture is fantastic, then they put their ugly logo on it just like a little kid writing his name on an expensive painting.

era

12-24-02, 04:25 PM

As mysteriously as it appeared, the nasty logo bug from the HDTV PBS demo loop on TWC has disappeared!! :D Who knows if it's a permanent improvement, or if they'll bring it back. But at least we can now show the best picture on TWC to friends in all its glory. .I could jump up and down

era

12-24-02, 07:19 PM

No sooner had I reported the disappearance of the PBS demo loop logo bug than it reappeared. :mad: Oh well, at least they put their UNC HD logo bug up in the top left corner where it's even harder to ignore than the ones in the lower right corner. I think the silly people at UNC TV are trying to drive me nuts with their ugly practices. Get a great HDTV demo loop going, then deface it with your station name. I suggest you complain to them as I have, and tell them that you've stopped donating to PBS because of their vulgarity in puttin up the bug.:confused:

era

12-24-02, 07:23 PM

I would never have imagined that TV stations would superimpose logo bugs on their picture...it seems like a sure way to turn viewers off and send them to premium channels like HBO and other cable stalwarts which are bug-free. In fact, in England people complained so much about the logo bugs that they were removed across the board. Good for the English. Now if we could just get our American stations to stop the nonsense. Noooo. I doubt it. We're too used to boombox cars, flashing strobe lights all around us, cell phone people yelling their conversations in restaurants and letting their bells go off in church, and other recent assaults that I doubt logos--even the animated ones--are high on most people's list of modern annoyances.

foxeng

01-27-03, 07:54 AM

Since I watched the SB OTA off of WXLV and not TWC, there is a rumor going around that the PQ on TWC feed on 530 was not very good. Can someone confirm that? The OTA was their standard def 480I 4:3, but I noticed the feed did have some bad ringing (multiple images similar to ghosting) before the SB started on all local and network programming. The game itself did look good, but 480I (720P downconverted to 480I) and their second channel (45-2) was up as always, but nothing, not even color bars.

jacksonian

01-27-03, 08:09 AM

Can't comment on the SB since I watched in on analog.

However, I am getting my new front pj this week and was wondering if anyone new how long the current wait was for a TWC HD box. Anyone got one lately?

era

01-27-03, 08:59 AM

Does anyone know why the Superbowl on Time Warner Cable in Greensboro "HD" (ha!) was so terrible? Not VHS-quality, but pretty close to it. No difference between the regular Ch. 7 ABC broadcast and the so-called "HDTV" version on Ch. 530? Was it the cable company? Or the feed from the local affliliate? I want to know who to write to and thank for the bad joke they played on HDTV enthusiasts here in Greensboro.

jacksonian

01-27-03, 09:33 AM

So did the SB on OTA HD look spectacular? Second rate announcers? Details?

scaramastra

01-27-03, 10:03 AM

TWC's Superbowl coverage was 4x3 downconverted, Dolby Pro Logic, and looked terrible for me too. They will sure be hearing from me today. I pray this wont continue with further HD events like the NBA playoffs and Stanly Cup... :confused:

foxeng

01-27-03, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by era
Does anyone know why the Superbowl on Time Warner Cable in Greensboro "HD" (ha!) was so terrible? Not VHS-quality, but pretty close to it. No difference between the regular Ch. 7 ABC broadcast and the so-called "HDTV" version on Ch. 530? Was it the cable company? Or the feed from the local affliliate? I want to know who to write to and thank for the bad joke they played on HDTV enthusiasts here in Greensboro.

I know TWC takes all the local DT's off air depending where you live, you see it from the either the Greensboro or Winston-Salem head end. From there the DT signals are sent via fiber to the surrounding TWC systems in the area.

WXLV was NOT sending HD OTA (I was watching OTA). Since WXLV just upconverts the analog signal, the DT should have been as good as the analog OTA. I know TWC does some compression of their own and remodulating the digital signal and depending on where you were watching, all these things play into the PQ. (unless TWC was trying something special and didn't tell anyone)

foxeng

01-27-03, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by scaramastra
TWC's Superbowl coverage was 4x3 downconverted, Dolby Pro Logic, and looked terrible for me too. They will sure be hearing from me today. I pray this wont continue with further HD events like the NBA playoffs and Stanly Cup... :confused:

At this time, WXLV has no way to send ABC network HD material. It is all upconverted from analog. I know for a fact they have the digital microwave in (I have seen it), they run two streams on air all the time with the second having either color bars or like now, nothing.

I have been told by those in the know, they have no way to get the ABC HD signal into the encoder at this time and that it is on their long range to do list (translated - when the money becomes available). This is SOP at all the Sinclair stations around the country. (and Sinclair owns both WXLV ABC45 and WUPN UPN48).

We should be a little happy since both Sinclair stations operate at relatively high power levels (WXLV around 450, 000 watts and WUPN at full power at 400,000) since most Sinclair stations operate in the 1-10,000 watt range. (WLOS the Sinclair station in Asheville operates at less then 10,000 watts and has no HD pass through either.)

PamW

01-27-03, 12:53 PM

Let's just say that I called TWC three times yesterday - one of the customer service reps was completely clueless! We did not receive the HD broadcast AT ALL. So much for the SB party! At least most of the people there didn't know the difference!
I am calling TWC today to complain (again).

Why didn't they just let CBS carry it in LOVELY 1080i???(sigh)

Pam

foxeng

01-27-03, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by PamW
Why didn't they just let CBS carry it in LOVELY 1080i???(sigh)

It rotates among the networks carrying NFL games. FOX had it last year, ABC this year, CBS next year.

Edisto

01-27-03, 06:11 PM

Add me to the list of disappointed about the non-event. However, like Pam, my guests didn't know the difference. They were very pleased with the picture, but I told them it's hard to explain the difference we would have seen had we had the HD feed. I did show them the UNC-HD loop and saw a couple of chins drop. But they still thought the game looked great the way it was. I was freaking out not being able to get it. Oh well, there's always next year!

Edisto

01-27-03, 06:37 PM

Just saw a strange thing while I was scanning the TWC HD channels...you might want to know this foxeng...it seemed to be you guys setting up for a remote about "IT" or something like that. Looked like one of your anchors and a reporter in Los Angeles trying to get their conversation to work. The lady in Los Angeles was having a problem with echo. Then all of the sudden it went back to darma and greg with no sound. Then to commercial with sound. Now back to darma and greg with no sound. Any insight? It was interesting to say the least.

foxeng

01-27-03, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by Edisto
Just saw a strange thing while I was scanning the TWC HD channels...you might want to know this foxeng...it seemed to be you guys setting up for a remote about "IT" or something like that. Looked like one of your anchors and a reporter in Los Angeles trying to get their conversation to work. The lady in Los Angeles was having a problem with echo. Then all of the sudden it went back to darma and greg with no sound. Then to commercial with sound. Now back to darma and greg with no sound. Any insight? It was interesting to say the least.

OOOOOH. We had a hiccup of the encoder this afternoon around 4 o'clock and in the process, the digital switcher started to NOT switch off of the news production control. Thought we had that fixed after we got the encoder back up and running. Well something else to work on tomorrow!

Thanks for the heads up.

Edisto

01-27-03, 08:41 PM

Actually it was interesting, so no worries. Always happy to help you out. You are a great contributer to this forum. Keep up the good work.

PamW

01-28-03, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by foxeng
It rotates among the networks carrying NFL games. FOX had it last year, ABC this year, CBS next year.

Yeah, I already knew that, but it just seems insane that CBS has the best setup right now for HD and it wasn't "their turn". What a coup that would have been as well as turning more people on to HDTV....

For sure next year, though!

Pam:D

foxeng

01-28-03, 07:48 AM

Well I see the audio has dropped out again this morning. This is NOT a good sign.

Looks like we may be out for a time today while I get my BIG ball peen hammer! It never ends!

PamW

01-28-03, 07:53 AM

Sorry, foxeng!!

I hope the rest of your day gets easier!

Pam

MrPhred

01-29-03, 10:14 AM

I hope it was clear to everyone that the awful Super Bowl video was *not* the fault of TWC. They can only pass along the signal WXLV provides to them. As foxeng pointed out, WXLV *still* does not transmit true, 1080i HDTV. This has been bugging me for a long time.

Today, I sent the following email to WXLV:

Do you guys have an approximate date for when you plan to begin transmitting *true* 1080i HDTV over the air?

The reason I ask is because I'd like to avoid the expense of raising the height of my antenna and adding a more powerful preamp in order to receive HDTV programming from some other ABC affiliate (likely WSOC).

If you guys are going to begin transmitting HDTV in the near future, then I'll patiently wait. I've always enjoyed watching WXLV. However, I certainly don't want to wait around so long that I end up watching another Super Bowl with inferior video. (I'm not alone in this opinion. Many Piedmont residents have been burning up various Internet bulletin boards, complaining about the lack of ABC HDTV, and sharing techniques for pulling in other ABC affiliates.)

Thanks in advance for any information you may be able to provide.

Respectfully,
-Fred xxxx

I invite others to send similar messages to WXLV. Maybe all they need is a little ammunition from viewers in order to get some HDTV broadcast equipment in their budget.

I'm looking forward to seeing whether or not they even respond. Some of the local stations I've sent comments to, like WFMY-DT, have been amazingly responsive and helpful. Good guys! Others have ignored me alltogether. Still others have cool guys like foxeng working for them, who seems to genuinely care about about his viewers.

One way or another, I *will* be watching ABC programming in HDTV in the near future.