I never have a clue what TWC is up to. Their logic is totaly non-existant as I can tell. I just saw the espn info on their website and posted it here. As for the upcoming starz agreement expiring (devision dependant I assume), I kinda doubt they'll drop starz, it's a premium movie channel that makes them money. The renewing of the agreement may actually get them to finally add StarzHD and StarzOnDemand (will probably be a stipulation of starz's to continue carrying the starz pack). Who nows, I sure as heck don't. :D

I kinda doubt they'll drop starz, it's a premium movie channel that makes them money. It may actually give them an opertunity to finally add StarzHD and StarzOnDemand. Who nows, I sure as heck don't. :D

You would think that, but Starz is almost ignored on the TWCNC site. It doesn't even appear in their monthly highlights section with Sho, HBO and Cinemax. Probably due to the lacklustre deal they have in place.

Either way my faint hope of seeing Pirates 2: Dead Man's Chest on Starz HD this Saturday is pretty much gone now. :(

When I'm aiming my OTA HD antenna towards the towers, how much accuracy do I need? Antennaweb says most of the locals are at 130 degrees for me... am I good anywhere from 120-140? or do I need to make a big effort with getting that last 1-2 degrees of aim? I'm getting mid/high 90's for many of the channels now.

Thanks,
Mike

"Close enough" :)

When I'm aiming my OTA HD antenna towards the towers, how much accuracy do I need? Antennaweb says most of the locals are at 130 degrees for me... am I good anywhere from 120-140? or do I need to make a big effort with getting that last 1-2 degrees of aim? I'm getting mid/high 90's for many of the channels now.

Thanks,
Mike

In my experience, for signal strength you have a pretty wide tolerance for aiming. However... signal quality is more important and you will have to experiment a bit to find best aiming. For example.. I was getting some breakup last week and rotated about 10 degrees counterclockwise from the antennaweb 'heading' and it stopped. Multipath sux.

"When I'm aiming my OTA HD antenna towards the towers"

With my attic mounted 4228 I find it is more channel dependent coming from Clayton than tower dependent.

I find this interesting since they are all so close to each other compared to me in Holly Springs.

-DonB2

Funny ATSC OTA behavior on my Samsung EPG.

Last night I checked all of my OTA channels with the EPG.

At 9pm was Diagnosis murder on 47.1 with a description of what the two parter was about.

At about 9:10 during a commercial I switched back to the EPG to reread what the episode was about and no information was displayed for it.

Why would this be?

In addition I don't know why all the stations are not supplying info about the shows. In particular Fox had absolutely no info and I might have like to watch the HD movie on that channel.

PBS is really sloppy with info also.

-DonB2

I'm hoping it's to finally add some more Starz, especially the HD feed. However given the weak Starz lineup they have and this statement:

The following agreements with programmers are due to expire soon, and we may be required to cease carriage of these services in the near future.

Service:
WRAL
WRAZ
Starz/Encore

I wouldn't be surprised if Starz/Encore gets dropped.

Maybe that's why WRAL has been sending out so many free antennaes.

You would think that, but Starz is almost ignored on the TWCNC site. It doesn't even appear in their monthly highlights section with Sho, HBO and Cinemax. Probably due to the lacklustre deal they have in place.

Either way my faint hope of seeing Pirates 2: Dead Man's Chest on Starz HD this Saturday is pretty much gone now. :(

Seeing as how HBO is a Time Warner company, why would Time Warner Cable want to increase Starz visability and distribution, allowing Starz to become more competative with HBO at securing box office content. They'll carry Starz, but their promotional push will always be towards HBO.

And Showtime has historically been much more aggressive on their pricing to cable operators than Starz, which is why they get the attention they get.

Seeing as how HBO is a Time Warner company, why would Time Warner Cable want to increase Starz visability and distribution, allowing Starz to become more competative with HBO at securing box office content. They'll carry Starz, but their promotional push will always be towards HBO.

And this is why I think vertical integration like this is bad for the consumer. When you own the content and the distribution it's natural to do this and can end in monopoly.

And this is why I think vertical integration like this is bad for the consumer. When you own the content and the distribution it's natural to do this and can end in monopoly.

Yes and no. In the end, as long as you have a choice of providers, i.e., cable, sat A, sat B, the consumer will win. Vertical integration actually brings more choice to the market from the prodution side.

Would it make sense for HBO, for example, to be a Time Warner Cable exclusive? Absolutely not. But it does make sense for Time Warner Cable to sell HBO harder than they sell Starz.

The third tier of providers, the telcos, will level the playing field even more in terms of price and programming. The providers that have some degree of vertical integration will be more profitable to the parent company than those that have to source all of their content.

New Beta Cutting Edge Update tonight 11p-2:30a

For details go the the Directv Cutting Edge Thread over at www.dbstalk.com

side note:
To activate GameLounge go to Directv active, weather, then enter all the My City slots with Craig, Alaska and this will activate Game Lounge, this is a backdoor code to activate GL.

To force this Beta update reset reciever and then hit 02468 on the remote once the welcome screen comes up.

Just got a Phillip CRT 30 hdtv w QAM tuner. I noticed some channels (ABC 111.2?), 77.1 and 77.2 have 4:3 aspect ratios, even though the pics appear to be HD. Is this normal? Or is it my refurbished TV?

I'm curious to know if there are any other HTPC users out there doing OTA ATSC recording of NBC and CBS. Both of these stations broadcast in 1080i and on multiple shows I'm seeing the recorded stream flip back and forth between progressive and interlaced frames.

I'm noticing this because I can see interlace artifacts during playback and confirmed what was happening by checking the log files of my mythtv box. Of the two CBS seems to be much more likely to happen changing multiple times within a 60 second period.

Shows I've seen this on are The Unit, Numb3rs, and ER.

I'm curious to know if there are any other HTPC users out there doing OTA ATSC recording of NBC and CBS. Both of these stations broadcast in 1080i and on multiple shows I'm seeing the recorded stream flip back and forth between progressive and interlaced frames

Do you also see that Myth seems to think that a 60 minute show on these channels is 52:30 or so? I think these two issues are related, and the runtime has driven me nuts for years. It used to be just CBS, but then NBC started doing it all of a sudden a year or so ago. I see no issues on PBS, or on WB22.

I just noticed the progressive/interlaced flipping when I upgraded my Myth box and decided that running 720p to my TV actually looked better than running 1080i, and I started using Myth's deinterlacing. FWIW, you can force Myth to think a show is interlaced (so the deinterlacer is run) by going into the OSD menu -> "Video Scan" and choosing "I"nterlaced, rather than "autodetect".

NBC17Eng: Can you help us here?

Drew

Do you also see that Myth seems to think that a 60 minute show on these channels is 52:30 or so? I think these two issues are related, and the runtime has driven me nuts for years. It used to be just CBS, but then NBC started doing it all of a sudden a year or so ago. I see no issues on PBS, or on WB22.

I do and that's an interesting idea. I haven't checked to see if 720p broadcasts such as 24 and Lost show the same time issue. For the most part, this doesn't bother me as it doesn't affect anything. :)

I just noticed the progressive/interlaced flipping when I upgraded my Myth box and decided that running 720p to my TV actually looked better than running 1080i, and I started using Myth's deinterlacing. FWIW, you can force Myth to think a show is interlaced (so the deinterlacer is run) by going into the OSD menu -> "Video Scan" and choosing "I"nterlaced, rather than "autodetect".

Yeah, I know about forcing deinterlacing however that still means I'm trying to deinterlace progressive frames. That's a whole other quality issue :)

I'm not entirely sure this is something NBC17Eng can help with but any technical input on the issue would be nice to have.

Clearly the MythTV playback could be smoother by better deailing with badly formed streams like the cited examples. In fact, playing the same stream back directly under Xine with the default Xine tvtime deinterlacer looks much better than the MythTV video player.

Then again, the stream shouldn't be flipping between interlaced and progressive frames mid content either, right?

I do and that's an interesting idea. I haven't checked to see if 720p broadcasts such as 24 ...
<...>
I'm not entirely sure this is something NBC17Eng can help with but any technical input on the issue would be nice to have.

For me at least, 720p shows are flawless in terms of run length, and I've never noticed progressive/interlace flipping with them.

I was hoping NBC17Eng might know something about what his equipment might be doing to confuse our software, especially since NBC17 didn't seem to do it until an equipment upgrade sometime last year. I wonder if it is triggered by some kind of advanced variable bitrate option on the encoders at the station, or something. He's generally very responsive to problems, and reads the forum.

Clearly the MythTV playback could be smoother
I've always found that the MythTV playback engine sucks in terms of CPU usage and playback quality. I only use it for the commflag markers & the time-stretch. If it weren't for them, I'd just automatically export everything for xine or mplayer or vlc to play.

BTW, mplayer shows the same confusion, which is hardly surprising as I think the myth playback engine is derived from mplayer. A random old My Name Is Earl (from last Oct, was sitting on my laptop..) shows this when playing it back via mplayer:

Playing /var/tmp/1017_20061005195900_20061005203000.nuv.
TS file format detected.
DEMUX OPEN, AUDIO_ID: -1, VIDEO_ID: -1, SUBTITLE_ID: -2,
PROBING UP TO 2000000, PROG: 0
VIDEO MPEG2(pid=33)AUDIO A52(pid=36) NO SUBS (yet)! PROGRAM N. 1
Opened TS demuxer, audio: 2000(pid 36), video: 10000002(pid 33)...POS=564, PROBE=2000000
VIDEO: MPEG2 1920x1080 (aspect 3) 29.970 fps 65000.0 kbps (8125.0 kbyte/s)
<...>
A:23071.4 V:23071.7 A-V: -0.236 ct: -0.070 25/ 22 133% 35% 3.6% 6 0
demux_mpg: 24000/1001fps progressive NTSC content detected, switching framerate.
A:23074.3 V:23074.3 A-V: 0.035 ct: -0.287 91/ 88 54% 25% 2.0% 6 0
demux_mpg: 30000/1001fps NTSC content detected, switching framerate.
Warning! FPS changed 23.976 -> 29.970 (-5.994005) [4] 5% 2.0% 6 0
A:23076.7 V:23076.7 A-V: -0.007 ct: -0.238 165/157 43% 29% 1.7% 6 0
demux_mpg: 24000/1001fps progressive NTSC content detected, switching framerate.
A:23078.0 V:23077.9 A-V: 0.051 ct: -0.185 195/187 40% 27% 1.7% 6 0
demux_mpg: 30000/1001fps NTSC content detected, switching framerate.
Warning! FPS changed 23.976 -> 29.970 (-5.994005) [4] 7% 1.7% 6 0
A:23079.1 V:23079.1 A-V: 0.003 ct: -0.126 231/220 38% 30% 1.6% 6 0
demux_mpg: 24000/1001fps progressive NTSC content detected, switching framerate.
A:23082.5 V:23082.5 A-V: 0.035 ct: -0.004 316/304 37% 27% 1.9% 6 0
demux_mpg: 30000/1001fps NTSC content detected, switching framerate.


Drew

For me at least, 720p shows are flawless in terms of run length, and I've never noticed progressive/interlace flipping with them.

I was hoping NBC17Eng might know something about what his equipment might be doing to confuse our software, especially since NBC17 didn't seem to do it until an equipment upgrade sometime last year. I wonder if it is triggered by some kind of advanced variable bitrate option on the encoders at the station, or something. He's generally very responsive to problems, and reads the forum.


I've always found that the MythTV playback engine sucks in terms of CPU usage and playback quality. I only use it for the commflag markers & the time-stretch. If it weren't for them, I'd just automatically export everything for xine or mplayer or vlc to play.

BTW, mplayer shows the same confusion, which is hardly surprising as I think the myth playback engine is derived from mplayer. A random old My Name Is Earl (from last Oct, was sitting on my laptop..) shows this when playing it back via mplayer:

Playing /var/tmp/1017_20061005195900_20061005203000.nuv.
TS file format detected.
DEMUX OPEN, AUDIO_ID: -1, VIDEO_ID: -1, SUBTITLE_ID: -2,
PROBING UP TO 2000000, PROG: 0
VIDEO MPEG2(pid=33)AUDIO A52(pid=36) NO SUBS (yet)! PROGRAM N. 1
Opened TS demuxer, audio: 2000(pid 36), video: 10000002(pid 33)...POS=564, PROBE=2000000
VIDEO: MPEG2 1920x1080 (aspect 3) 29.970 fps 65000.0 kbps (8125.0 kbyte/s)
<...>
A:23071.4 V:23071.7 A-V: -0.236 ct: -0.070 25/ 22 133% 35% 3.6% 6 0
demux_mpg: 24000/1001fps progressive NTSC content detected, switching framerate.
A:23074.3 V:23074.3 A-V: 0.035 ct: -0.287 91/ 88 54% 25% 2.0% 6 0
demux_mpg: 30000/1001fps NTSC content detected, switching framerate.
Warning! FPS changed 23.976 -> 29.970 (-5.994005) [4] 5% 2.0% 6 0
A:23076.7 V:23076.7 A-V: -0.007 ct: -0.238 165/157 43% 29% 1.7% 6 0
demux_mpg: 24000/1001fps progressive NTSC content detected, switching framerate.
A:23078.0 V:23077.9 A-V: 0.051 ct: -0.185 195/187 40% 27% 1.7% 6 0
demux_mpg: 30000/1001fps NTSC content detected, switching framerate.
Warning! FPS changed 23.976 -> 29.970 (-5.994005) [4] 7% 1.7% 6 0
A:23079.1 V:23079.1 A-V: 0.003 ct: -0.126 231/220 38% 30% 1.6% 6 0
demux_mpg: 24000/1001fps progressive NTSC content detected, switching framerate.
A:23082.5 V:23082.5 A-V: 0.035 ct: -0.004 316/304 37% 27% 1.9% 6 0
demux_mpg: 30000/1001fps NTSC content detected, switching framerate.


Drew

OK from that print out I can see what's happening here. It looks to me that this show isn't interlaced or progressive. It's teleclined! Try using a 3:2 pulldown filter like mplayer -vf pullup,softskip myfile.mpg and see what that gets you. You can see the pattern in the recording where the auto-detect is switching. Three progressive frames followed by two interlaced frames, repeat.

OK from that print out I can see what's happening here. It looks to me that this show isn't interlaced or progressive. It's teleclined! Try using a 3:2 pulldown filter like mplayer -vf pullup,softskip myfile.mpg and see what that gets you. You can see the pattern in the recording where the auto-detect is switching. Three progressive frames followed by two interlaced frames, repeat.

Interesting. I checked my recording of Numb3rs from NBC last Friday using mplayer -v -vf pullup. Looking at the pattern output by the pullup filer the affinity, breaks, and duration indicate a 3:2 teleclined pattern at least some of the time. But there also seems to be non-teleclined frames in a straight 2:2 interlace pattern at some points. This suggests an interlaced signal that has been teleclined.

I have no idea how well MythTV would handle an ATSC 1080i signal that has been teleclined or if it would even detect it.

N&O story on TV from telephone companies...

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/576499.html

In a nutshell, no new choices (other than TWC and Sat) in the immediate future... :(

Mike

I am relocating from Providence to Wake Forest NC in June. What are my options as far cable vs sat? Who has the best HD service? Also, in a somewhat related topic, who has the best internet service?

Thanks.

Post #312 from 4 years ago is the only post stating model#s. The CM3042 and similar RadioShack (I assume 15-2505) did not help. That was good information since I was considering those. All other posts have been rather generic.

From a little research for amp use in our area:
Amps are generally not needed for digital reception.
Amps providing 10-15dB amplification are enough to overcome cabling issues for NTSC reception.
Higher amplification is not necessary within 35 miles of the transmitters and likely will overload the receiver.

From that information we are left to guess.
First I'll get the Lowes 12dB $20 amp. If that doesn't help then I'll get the Winegard HDA-100 or HDA-200.

edit: The 12dB Amp at Lowes listed 5dB noise. The Radioshack models 10dB and 32dB did not list the noise rating, but each were obvious returns which tells me they did not work as advertised. I passed on all these choices. Eagle Aspen 15dB models list 5dB noise. Seems Winegard (2.5-3dB noise) offers the only viable (on paper) solution (found so far).

I have no idea how well MythTV would handle an ATSC 1080i signal that has been teleclined or if it would even detect it.

There is at least one thread about this in the mythtv-dev mailing list, where somebody from here is complaining about the same issues we're seeing:
http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/dev/225695?search_string=telecined;#225695
There doesn't appear to be much of a resolution.

BTW, are you running 0.20, or the svn tip?

Drew

Post #312 from 4 years ago is the only post stating model#s. The CM3042 and similar RadioShack (I assume 15-2505) did not help. That was good information since I was considering those. All other posts have been rather generic.

From a little research for amp use in our area:
Amps are generally not needed for digital reception.
Amps providing 10-15dB amplification are enough to overcome cabling issues for NTSC reception.
Higher amplification is not necessary within 35 miles of the transmitters and likely will overload the receiver.

From that information we are left to guess.
First I'll get the Lowes 12dB $20 amp. If that doesn't help then I'll get the Winegard HDA-100.

This is probably overkill for what you're asking for, but I use this with great success for distributing RF throughout my house (both NTSC and ATSC). I also use the RF modulators built into it for my DBS receiver. It was a real challenge finding clear channels that I could modulate on - I'm currently using 44 and 56 NTSC, it appears that 54 would also work. Life will get easier after Feb 19, 2009 for using modulators.

http://www.smarthome.com/7717.html

When this did not have enough outlets, I took a Radio Shack distribution amp (1 in, 4 out, variable output) on an output of the distribution system. The variability is very important - too much signal is as bad as too little. The Radio Shack one is set at less than half way.

Interesting. I checked my recording of Numb3rs from NBC last Friday using mplayer -v -vf pullup. Looking at the pattern output by the pullup filer the affinity, breaks, and duration indicate a 3:2 teleclined pattern at least some of the time. But there also seems to be non-teleclined frames in a straight 2:2 interlace pattern at some points. This suggests an interlaced signal that has been teleclined.

I have no idea how well MythTV would handle an ATSC 1080i signal that has been teleclined or if it would even detect it.I have no idea how any deinterlacing algorithm would handle that situation. If that is really the case, then the broadcasters are just ruining the video. :confused:

Do you also see that Myth seems to think that a 60 minute show on these channels is 52:30 or so? I think these two issues are related, and the runtime has driven me nuts for years. It used to be just CBS, but then NBC started doing it all of a sudden a year or so ago. I see no issues on PBS, or on WB22.

I just noticed the progressive/interlaced flipping when I upgraded my Myth box and decided that running 720p to my TV actually looked better than running 1080i, and I started using Myth's deinterlacing. FWIW, you can force Myth to think a show is interlaced (so the deinterlacer is run) by going into the OSD menu -> "Video Scan" and choosing "I"nterlaced, rather than "autodetect".

NBC17Eng: Can you help us here?

Drew
Nope. 1080i is the OTA standard and we do not swap to anything else. 1080p is not part of the ATSC OTA standard, and is only for DVD material, not broadcast. There is no swapping going on from the stations.

I am relocating from Providence to Wake Forest NC in June. What are my options as far cable vs sat? Who has the best HD service? Also, in a somewhat related topic, who has the best internet service?

Thanks.

DirecTv/Dish/Time Warner.


I have time warner. http://www.timewarnercable.com/nc/products/cable/hdchannels.html


Time warner for Internet and home phone is the best deal for us.

Nope. 1080i is the OTA standard and we do not swap to anything else. 1080p is not part of the ATSC OTA standard, and is only for DVD material, not broadcast. There is no swapping going on from the stations.
1080p at 24fps and 30fps (Cinema rates) have always been part of the "18 ATSC formats":
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html

One of the primary hangups has been the lack of 1080p on HDMI and CV interfaces.

1080p at 24fps and 30fps (Cinema rates) have always been part of the "18 ATSC formats":
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ISSUES/what_is_ATSC.html

One of the primary hangups has been the lack of 1080p on HDMI and CV interfaces.
The different resolutions can operate in progressive scan or interlaced mode, although the highest 1080-line system cannot display progressive images at the rate of 59.94 or 60 frames per second. (Such technology was seen as too advanced at the time, plus the image quality was deemed to be too poor considering the amount of data that can be transmitted.) A terrestrial (over-the-air) transmission carries 19.39 megabits of data per second, compared to a maximum possible bitrate of 10.08Mbit/s allowed in the DVD standard.

Nope. 1080i is the OTA standard and we do not swap to anything else. 1080p is not part of the ATSC OTA standard, and is only for DVD material, not broadcast. There is no swapping going on from the stations.

I think it is something about your "new" equipment. Do you remember how, roughly 1 or 1.5 years ago, everybody was beating you up over your image quality, especially for fast motion on sports? You got some new equipment, or changed some settings, and things got a *lot* better. I *think* this corresponds to when I started seeing the "60 minutes = 52 minutes" from my DVR on NBC (and I think this corresponds to whatever is causing the interlacing problems). I need to go back and re-read the archives to narrow down the timeframe better. I don't have any really old recordings back when NBC17 was like PBS, and 60 minutes = 60 minutes (and no interlacing problems) for 1080i material.

So.. what I'm really wondering: Is it possible that whatever you changed to make your 1080i feed not look terrible be confusing our dvr software by doing this telecine stuff?

Drew

I think it is something about your "new" equipment. Do you remember how, roughly 1 or 1.5 years ago, everybody was beating you up over your image quality, especially for fast motion on sports? You got some new equipment, or changed some settings, and things got a *lot* better. I *think* this corresponds to when I started seeing the "60 minutes = 52 minutes" from my DVR on NBC (and I think this corresponds to whatever is causing the interlacing problems). I need to go back and re-read the archives to narrow down the timeframe better. I don't have any really old recordings back when NBC17 was like PBS, and 60 minutes = 60 minutes (and no interlacing problems) for 1080i material.

So.. what I'm really wondering: Is it possible that whatever you changed to make your 1080i feed not look terrible be confusing our dvr software by doing this telecine stuff?

Drew
If the Myth is switching between progressive and interlaced, then it would come up short on time. It sounds like it is dropping numerous frames which would shorten a recorded show significantly. That's an old trick TBS and others use to "time compress" a movie. Why, I can not say, but if the software decoder or card "sees" redundant frames or fields, it may be throwing them away instead of displaying them. It would be hard for the human eye to detect, but it is logical since it does not happen on 720p as you report. It appears a little research might be needed, but I can't think of anything WRAL or NBC 17 would be doing to cause it only on 1080i.

If the Myth is switching between progressive and interlaced, then it would come up short on time. It sounds like it is dropping numerous frames which would shorten a recorded show significantly. That's an old trick TBS and others use to "time compress" a movie. Why, I can not say, but if the software decoder or card "sees" redundant frames or fields, it may be throwing them away instead of displaying them. It would be hard for the human eye to detect, but it is logical since it does not happen on 720p as you report. It appears a little research might be needed, but I can't think of anything WRAL or NBC 17 would be doing to cause it only on 1080i.

Appreciate the response NBC17Eng. I'm also not yet fully convinced it's something NBC17 HD is broadcasting that's the root cause. It maybe upstream from you too. As far as MythTV goes, that's essentially the playback application. The telecine output can also be seen from the very popular mplayer playback app too.

So, what I am certain of is that I am seeing a 3:2 telecine in the final .mpg. I'm only 50% certain that this is a telecine + interlace. Unfortunately I just don't have enough experience analyzing broadcast streams to be be 100% sure. Not yet anyway! ;)

As far as video capture goes, I capture OTA ATSC using a Silicondust HDHomeRun. This little box takes an HD ATSC or QAM source and dumps the raw mpg out to disk. No conversions or processing is run on the stream from inside the HDHomeRun. That's what the developers tell me anyway and source code is available to confirm it. If that doesn't sound right let me know and I'll go chase it.

If your interested I have a few options available. I can show verbose mplayer logs of the 3:2 frame pattern. I can also provide snippets of 1080i captured streams in .mpg format for review. I'm not sure it would be very helpful over all considering you most likely have a greater array of equipment and experience to review the issue with but it's available if you would like.

In the captured sample I have of Numb3rs from last Friday, I can see in the commercials prior to the main show a clear 1080i interlaced signal without telecine. Then once the show starts I see a clear 3:2 pattern of pppiii frames being shown by mplayer verbose output.

I've posted a log of the mplayer output showing about 30secs of the .mpg. It's available at http://donpoo.net/mythtv/nbc_mplayer.log. Using Linux the command "egrep 'breaks|affinity|duration|demux|Warning' mplayer.log | less" shows a clear 2:2 pattern during the upfront commercial break and a 3:2 pattern during the main show. The log was created with the command mplayer -v -vf pulldown filename.mpg.

Additional info on mplayer detecting and handling interlaced and telecine is found at http://www.mplayerhq.hu/DOCS/HTML/en/menc-feat-telecine.html in section 14.2.2.2.

Thanks again for your replies.

Post #312 from 4 years ago is the only post stating model#s. The CM3042 and similar RadioShack (I assume 15-2505) did not help. That was good information since I was considering those. All other posts have been rather generic.

From a little research for amp use in our area:
Amps are generally not needed for digital reception.
Amps providing 10-15dB amplification are enough to overcome cabling issues for NTSC reception.
Higher amplification is not necessary within 35 miles of the transmitters and likely will overload the receiver.

From that information we are left to guess.
First I'll get the Lowes 12dB $20 amp. If that doesn't help then I'll get the Winegard HDA-100 or HDA-200.

edit: The 12dB Amp at Lowes listed 5dB noise. The Radioshack models 10dB and 32dB did not list the noise rating, but each were obvious returns which tells me they did not work as advertised. I passed on all these choices. Eagle Aspen 15dB models list 5dB noise. Seems Winegard (2.5-3dB noise) offers the only viable (on paper) solution (found so far).

I would not buy any amp that leaves off the noise figure. It is not a good sign :). I think your best bet is a pre-amp and not a distribution amp. Distribution amps amplify the noise that is coupled into your cable run, pre-amps do not. I use a cm7777 and my cable has a single 4 way split. I live in apex and this does not overdrive any OTA channel. My antenna is a CM4228 that WRAL gave me for free.

Appreciate the response NBC17Eng. I'm also not yet fully convinced it's something NBC17 HD is broadcasting that's the root cause. It maybe upstream from you too.

For what it is worth, I looked at a random smattering of files and I found that:

- American Idle (50-1) does not have this problem, pure 59.94fps
- Stargate Atlantis syndicated rerun (11-1, 720p) does not have the problem
- 24 syndicated re-run (50-1, 720p) shows this problem (and has run-length issue)
- 24 syndicated re-run (50-2, 480i) shows this problem (and has run length issue)
- Ask This Old House (4-4, 480i) doesn't show this (pure 29.970fps).
- Nova (4-2, 1080i) doesn't show this problem
- Superbowl (5-1, 1080i) commercials are 23.976, game is pure 29.970, no problem
- NCAA Tourney (5-1, 1080i) commercials are 23.976, game is pure 29.970, no problem

Hope this helps somewhat in figuring out what is happening..

Drew

I would not buy any amp that leaves off the noise figure. It is not a good sign :). I think your best bet is a pre-amp and not a distribution amp. Distribution amps amplify the noise that is coupled into your cable run, pre-amps do not. I use a cm7777 and my cable has a single 4 way split. I live in apex and this does not overdrive any OTA channel. My antenna is a CM4228 that WRAL gave me for free.

Thx,
I looked at the 7777, first considered since it has separate UHF/VHF input -I have CM4221 and separate VHF antenna. But, read that its' operating range is 100MHz + up, which doesn't help WRAL analog (yes, I know this is an HD thread). I'm getting analog ch4 and ch5 strong w/o amp so thanks to your post I will reconsider.
It lists 2.8dB noise which is not better than the Winegard HDA models. I've read that if the distribution amp is placed near the antenna then no difference between a pre-amp and distribution amp.
The 7777 does not have adjustable gain and at $65 net is $15 more than the Winegard HDA-200.

How important is Gain Control on a 23dB amp, within 20 miles of the transmitters?
Update: ordered CM7778: 16dB VHF gain, 23 UHF gain for my 3-way splitter. Next step: HDTV shopping!

So typically are 1080i shows broadcast teleclined or interleaved? Since 1080i only has 540 vertical lines of resolution it would make sense that it would be a pure interleave. I am confused as to how it could be teleclined, thus enabling perfect recovery of progressive content with a simple 3:2 pulldown filter, but that's what I am seeing here.

Thx,
I looked at the 7777, first considered since it has separate UHF/VHF input -I have CM4221 and separate VHF antenna. But, read that its' operating range is 100MHz + up, which doesn't help WRAL analog (yes, I know this is an HD thread). I'm getting analog ch4 and ch5 strong w/o amp so thanks to your post I will reconsider.
It lists 2.8dB noise which is not better than the Winegard HDA models. I've read that if the distribution amp is placed near the antenna then no difference between a pre-amp and distribution amp.
The 7777 does not have adjustable gain and at $65 net is $15 more than the Winegard HDA-200.

How important is Gain Control on a 23dB amp, within 20 miles of the transmitters?
Update: ordered CM7778: 16dB VHF gain, 23 UHF gain for my 3-way splitter. Next step: HDTV shopping!

The only reason you would need adjustable gain is if you are overdriving your signal. With a 4 way split using a very strong antenna from Apex this is not the case. Note that the noise figure for UHF on the CM7777 is 2db which is great. And digital OTA is at this time all in UHF band.

You are right that if the distribution amp is near the antenna it is essentially a pre-amp with a n-way splitter.

So typically are 1080i shows broadcast teleclined or interleaved? Since 1080i only has 540 vertical lines of resolution it would make sense that it would be a pure interleave. I am confused as to how it could be teleclined, thus enabling perfect recovery of progressive content with a simple 3:2 pulldown filter, but that's what I am seeing here.

I am not an expert here, but I believe telecine and interlacing are totally independent subjects. For example lots of film is shot at 24fps. 3:2 telecine is typically used to get this to NTSC (29.97fps). Those 30fps could be interlaced or progressive. It shouldn't matter right?

I talked with UNC-TV and WRAL this morning, and we are all using the exact same brand and model HD encoders with the same software, etc. The source material is always 1080i regardless if it is HD, up-converted, film or videotape. We did discuss two possibilities: 1) the software may be looking for metadata to control the variable scan/ rates of future TV, which is not currently in use, or 2) It may be deleting frames due to the GOP settings. The GOP, or group of pictures can be set or variable. The stream tells your receiver which to expect, and how many picture frames should be placed between them. Either way, we don't see anything outbound that would cause it. Our guess is a software setting, hardware, or display setting that is causing the frame drops scan changes, etc. I think with enough trial and error and investigating, it can be figured out, but we don't see anything outbound from the stations capable of doing this.We'd all be very interested in what you find out.

ESPNU to be added to lineups in time for College Football Season:
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6446156.html

TWC will stop charging for ESPN HD Channels:
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6446179.html

I have a Terk TV38 VHF/UHF/FM antenna that was damaged in my move to the area. The front end snapped, but it is totally repairable. I was going to toss it, but I thought I would check this board to see if anyone would like it? I will give it away, but you will need to come pick it up. PM me if you are interested.

I noticed last night that I am not receiving the Spanish channel 40.1, I also noticed I am getting zero signal strength on my Samsung for that channel.

Not that I can understand Spanish anyway but you just never know the Gov may make it the official language of the US in a few years.

-DonB2

TWC will stop charging for ESPN HD Channels:
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6446179.html

they already did, you should check your lineup. I think that happened about a month ago. Astonishing that the Raleigh market got something ahead of everyone else!

they already did, you should check your lineup. I think that happened about a month ago. Astonishing that the Raleigh market got something ahead of everyone else!

Anyone know the clear QAM mapppings of ESPN-HD, ESPN2-HD?

I am not an expert here, but I believe telecine and interlacing are totally independent subjects. For example lots of film is shot at 24fps. 3:2 telecine is typically used to get this to NTSC (29.97fps). Those 30fps could be interlaced or progressive. It shouldn't matter right?I'm just wondering if it is common for 1080i content to actually be teleclined film (Progressive 24fps) or not? I have a few episodes of Law & Order that I downloaded, and they are progressive 24fps recorded from what I assume is a 1080i 30fps NBC source. This would indicate to me that Law & Order (and possibly other OTA shows) are being broadcast teleclined. I don't see any other explination here since converting a non-teleclined source from NTSC 30->24 fps would destroy it (massive jitter in motion scenes). Any thoughts on this? I'm asking because I'm trying to write a script for my capture card that will automatically recover the progressive content from a teleclined source. Of course if the source is not teleclined to begin with then it will be ruined. :p

Anyone know the clear QAM mapppings of ESPN-HD, ESPN2-HD?I don't believe that ESPN-HD is in the clear, since it is a premium channel. Then again I'm not from Raleigh, NC so I have no idea. I know where I live ESPN is encrypted by the cable co.

I would be absolutely thrilled if it was in clear QAM, but I cannot believe this is the case.

I'm just wondering if it is common for 1080i content to actually be teleclined film (Progressive 24fps) or not? I have a few episodes of Law & Order that I downloaded, and they are progressive 24fps recorded from what I assume is a 1080i 30fps NBC source. This would indicate to me that Law & Order (and possibly other OTA shows) are being broadcast teleclined. I don't see any other explination here since converting a non-teleclined source from NTSC 30->24 fps would destroy it (massive jitter in motion scenes). Any thoughts on this? I'm asking because I'm trying to write a script for my capture card that will automatically recover the progressive content from a teleclined source. Of course if the source is not teleclined to begin with then it will be ruined. :p
That's a very good point. Most dramas and sitcoms are still mastered on film. You can see the film grain if you freeze frame Law & Order, but if you look at a frame of the Today show, you won't see any grain. Has anyone checked between a show recorded on HD (tape/live) versus a filmed show that can confirm if the program file lengths are different?

Pax/ION

Since no one seems to watch Pax I expect no reply but anyway last night during Wonderyears instead of a commercial, up pops this Public Notice stating that Pax/IOn was sold on May 13th to Citadel - I think- then the notice proceeds to list about 30 names of the new owners.

I realise that Pax changed to ION back around the 1st of the year but I had not heard anything about this Citadel May 13th purchase and am wondering if this change the line up or not.

I guess I could email ION and ask.

-DonB2

Pax/ION

Since no one seems to watch Pax I expect no reply but anyway last night during Wonderyears instead of a commercial, up pops this Public Notice stating that Pax/IOn was sold on May 13th to Citadel - I think- then the notice proceeds to list about 30 names of the new owners.

I realise that Pax changed to ION back around the 1st of the year but I had not heard anything about this Citadel May 13th purchase and am wondering if this change the line up or not.

I guess I could email ION and ask.

-DonB2I don't know about changes in programming, but there does appear to be literally nothing on ION worth of value except The Wonder Years and Battlestar Galatia. I live in MA so it's ION here.

Time WPXQ-DT 17 (69.1) programming for Friday, May 25, 2007
12:00 AM Pastor Scott
1:00 AM Pastor Scott
2:00 AM Paid Programming
2:30 AM Paid Programming
3:00 AM Paid Programming
3:30 AM Paid Programming
4:00 AM Paid Programming
4:30 AM Paid Programming
5:00 AM Paid Programming
5:30 AM Paid Programming
6:00 AM Key of David
6:30 AM Feed the Children
7:00 AM Paid Programming
7:30 AM Paid Programming
8:00 AM Paid Programming
8:30 AM Life Today
9:00 AM International Fellowship of Christians and Jews
9:30 AM Paid Programming
10:00 AM Paid Programming
10:30 AM Paid Programming
11:00 AM Paid Programming
11:30 AM Paid Programming
12:00 PM Paid Programming
12:30 PM Paid Programming
1:00 PM Paid Programming
1:30 PM Paid Programming
2:00 PM Paid Programming
2:30 PM Paid Programming
3:00 PM Babar Special Delivery
3:30 PM Dragon Dragon's Snowy Day; Dragon's Merry Christmas
4:00 PM 3-2-1 Penguins!/LarryBoy Stories The Doom Funnel Rescue
4:30 PM VeggieTales Madame Blueberry
5:00 PM Jane and the Dragon A Thing of Beauty
5:30 PM Jacob Two-Two Jacob Two-Two and the Tag Team Tempest
6:00 PM Moral Court Momma Wants Breasts/Too Fat to Be Seen
7:00 PM Amen Two Men, One Woman and a Baby
7:30 PM Alice Florence of Arabia
8:00 PM Mama's Family Fran's Dress
8:30 PM Mama's Family Positive Thinking
9:00 PM Diagnosis Murder The Flame
10:00 PM Wonder Years Dinner Out
10:30 PM Wonder Years Christmas Party
11:00 PM Time Life
11:30 PM Paid ProgrammingIt appears to be all infomercials, paid programming, and religious programming. It would be nice if they had a program change IMO. They should stick to great re-runs like The Wonder Years and Growing Pains etc.

I watch Diagnosis Murder only because the better half has been turned off by the graphic ness of 24 and so on. But pretty soon I will have every episode memorised.

Never watched Diagnosis when it was new.

I actually like 24, CSI, Criminal Minds and so on but I got to admit and I have said this before - they are getting or are pretty graphic.

I also tune in the ion subchannel that plays music and shows typically mountain scenery.

The health sub channel is not what I was expecting and Cube is for kids.

Oh and there is that Kick Boxing they keep advertising. Have not watched it yet but the kick box women are kick a__!

-Donb2

I would be absolutely thrilled if it was in clear QAM, but I cannot believe this is the case.
Im fairly certain its not too, since TNT and Discovery were removed from it before. That being said, is there anything we can do to convince them to change this? I realize they dont want to give these channels away to those that only have a basic package, but there are a lot of us who dont have access to these channels via QAM even though we are paying for them (and Im fairly certain that number far outweighs the former). I just want to be able to record stuff with my QAM card in HD rather than having to choose between the standard channel or a downconverted/letterboxed version It just baffles me that there isnt a way to make this happen.

Has anyone checked between a show recorded on HD (tape/live) versus a filmed show that can confirm if the program file lengths are different?

Great idea!

I checked my recording of one of the NCAA tourney games on CBS, and a 2.5hr recording showed 2:30, rather than the 2:10 I'd expect if it was a 2.5hr filmed show like "Numb3rs" or "Law & Order". I also don't see the constant 24 -> 30 -> 24 fps flipping like I do for filmed shows. I'll record a Today show next week and confirm with that too, if you like.

Drew

Directv HD DVR HR20-700 Owners

Beta software update tonight 11p-2:30a by force update method, hit reset, then at welcome screen, press 02468 on remote, then wait for update and reciever to restart.

This update introduces the new user interface, menu changes, new color graphics, new logos, one touch guide option in menu, and alot more.
Also faster channel changes.

visit the www.dbstalk.com
directv cutting edge thread.

This was the best software update yet.

It just baffles me that there isnt a way to make this happen.
To access the encrypted channels you would need to use a CableCARD.

^But then Im paying again for something Ive already paid for the right to receive, plus a cable card isnt going to work with my QAM tuner card on my computer.

^But then Im paying again for something Ive already paid for the right to receive, plus a cable card isnt going to work with my QAM tuner card on my computer.

You either have to have a CableCard or a cable box. I believe for the digital cable tiers you are paying to receive them on one TV. It is unfortunate that CableLabs made CableCards for PCs a non-starter by requiring the entire system to be certified end to end, but it certainly did a good job of ensuring CableCards would never take off.

If they did everything unencrypted we'd have to go back to the days of physical filters placed on your line based on your package. I can't imagine going back to the days of a truck roll for every package change.

Can you do recordings via Firewire? Maybe you could get a box from TWC with the firewire port enabled. The box would do the decryption and then you could record via the firewire interface. Not ideal, but it's something anyway.

Can you do recordings via Firewire? Maybe you could get a box from TWC with the firewire port enabled. The box would do the decryption and then you could record via the firewire interface. Not ideal, but it's something anyway.
An encrypted channel will still be encrypted via Firewire. The encryption method for Firewire is called "5C" or DTCP. PCs are not DTCP-compliant, so they cannot decrypt it, and thus cannot record it via Firewire. However, some D-VHS VCRs are DTCP-compliant, so they can decrypt it and record it (unless it is flagged as "copy never").

Yeah, I tried Firewire before because I was hearing that encrypted QAM != 5C, and thought maybe Firewire would allow me to record...no go.

I started googling some stuff about this just now and did find some information about cable cards for Vista PCs, but as pkscout mentioned, CableLabs is requiring the system to be certified (so youd have to buy a Vista PC rather than building your own and probably paying a pretty penny for it). Im not going to run out and buy one just yet considering how many problems Vista has, but good to know that maybe in the near future this will be possible/available (although it wont help me this football season).

An encrypted channel will still be encrypted via Firewire. The encryption method for Firewire is called "5C" or DTCP. PCs are not DTCP-compliant, so they cannot decrypt it, and thus cannot record it via Firewire. However, some D-VHS VCRs are DTCP-compliant, so they can decrypt it and record it (unless it is flagged as "copy never").

As long as the program is marked as "Copy Freely", you can record to a Mac (and presumably a PC), by recording it to your DVR, then play it back.

"Copy Once' will not work because the "once'" is consumed by the DVR storing the program.

Alas, recording on the fly does not seem to work, nor from the chase buffer.. only from a stored DVR program. I did this with several shows from my 8300 (before I turned it in and switched to Dish).

With this process, as long as your cable box can decrypt it, it is the copy-flag setting that matters, not whether the program is/was encrypted. I do not know, but suspect other boxes with Firewire may also have success (the FCC mandates that a cable company provide a FW-enabled box upon request). I do not know if you can record live/streaming material from a 3250(?), ie. HD, non-DVR box.

Mike

With this process, as long as your cable box can decrypt it, it is the copy-flag setting that matters, not whether the program is/was encrypted.
I understand the distinction, but I was under the impression that all of the encrypted channels on TWC were flagged as either "copy once" or "copy never."

Are you implying that some encrypted channels are flagged as "copy freely"? If so, which ones are they?
I do not know if you can record live/streaming material from a 3250(?), ie. HD, non-DVR box.
I can record "copy once" material from a 3250HD to a D-VHS VCR over Firewire.

Alas, recording on the fly does not seem to work, nor from the chase buffer.. only from a stored DVR program. I did this with several shows from my 8300 (before I turned it in and switched to Dish).
Please elaborate, you recorded material stored on your 8300HD DVR? True HD or downconverted to SD?

Are you implying that some encrypted channels are flagged as "copy freely"? If so, which ones are they?.

I was able to copy some material off of Discovery HD and WUNC-HD. Also was able to copy movies from Encore(???) ch 310 (tho they were not HD).

The copy flags on are a per-show basis.. If I remember correctly, some ABC content was "copy once' so I could not copy it off the DVR (as the "once" was already used up).

1 hr of concert from WUNC-HD was just over 6G. (yes true 1080i HD with DD 5.1)

Glad to hear the 3250 allows "copy once" to be captured... figured that was an 8300 bug.

Mike

EDIT: for the Mac-centric folks: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=386740 (I'm sure there is a PC version of the same subject)

I was able to copy some material off of Discovery HD and WUNC-HD.
When did you copy from Discovery HD? Within the last year? It used to be unencrypted until April 2006.

WUNC-HD is unencrypted anyway.

When did you copy from Discovery HD? Within the last year? It used to be unencrypted until April 2006.

WUNC-HD is unencrypted anyway.

maybe 3 months ago.

I do not believe that encryption has anything to do with this. Its the 5c(?) copy protection flag that matters. The cable box de-crypts the signal.. at that point if the copy flag allows, you can record to Firewire in various levels of usefulness (according to which box you have).

Mike

Great idea!

I checked my recording of one of the NCAA tourney games on CBS, and a 2.5hr recording showed 2:30, rather than the 2:10 I'd expect if it was a 2.5hr filmed show like "Numb3rs" or "Law & Order". I also don't see the constant 24 -> 30 -> 24 fps flipping like I do for filmed shows. I'll record a Today show next week and confirm with that too, if you like.

DrewSo it looks to me that sitcoms and non-live broadcasts can be recovered to progressive with a 3 : 2 pull down filter. Sports, news, and live shows will not be able to, and the only way to preserve their max quality would be to bob it up to 1080p60 which would require a very powerful machine.

Please elaborate, you recorded material stored on your 8300HD DVR? True HD or downconverted to SD?

there is a huge thread in of the other forums about recording via firewire.

Looks like I will be making the switch to Time Warner for DirecTV. Key factors after my side-by-side evaluation include:

- All HD locals at a better quality. This will be a key factor come NFL season.
- Improved picture quality on the SD channels (sharper, brighter, or in other words not overcompressed).
- HD On-Demand selection MUCH better than DirecTV HD PPV.
- More Cinemax channels, including CinemaxHD.
- No need to spend $400 AGAIN (for the third time in four years) to get current on HD equipment.
- Having someone I can talk to in-person when there is a billing issue.

What we'll miss:

- Sprout. Kids love this channel, especially the Good Night show getting ready for bed. I'll have to record the shows off UNC-PBSKids and have them ready for them at night.
- Folders for recorded shows. Being able to see the descriptions on the right as I page through means finding an episode is easier than the pre-6.x DirecTIVO software, but not anywhere near as nice as the 6.x DirecTIVO software.

Service is a wash. I've had some billing and installation issues during the TWC setup, but DirecTV screwed me over on their Cinemax/HBO 2-for-1 deal at the same time (not ONE PLACE in the freakin' e-mail did it say that if you took the deal last year, you can't have it this year, too). At least TWC is fixing the issues as they occur.

there is a huge thread in of the other forums about recording via firewire.
Last I heard there were no 8300HD boxes available with firewire ports enabled. Has this changed?

Last I heard there were no 8300HD boxes available with firewire ports enabled. Has this changed?

I had 2(one died and was replaced) before ditching TWC for Dish.

Mike

FWIW, there is a thread on the mythtv mailing list regarding what we've seen locally. (http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/271696) which seems to confirm that the telecine and length issues are related. There's also a link to a discussion of the encoder another NBC affiliate is using, which somewhat vindicates my fuzzy recollection that this started happening on NBC when NBC17 upgraded their equipment..

Drew

Looks like I will be making the switch to Time Warner for DirecTV. Key factors after my side-by-side evaluation include:

- All HD locals at a better quality. This will be a key factor come NFL season.
- Improved picture quality on the SD channels (sharper, brighter, or in other words not overcompressed).
- HD On-Demand selection MUCH better than DirecTV HD PPV.
- More Cinemax channels, including CinemaxHD.
- No need to spend $400 AGAIN (for the third time in four years) to get current on HD equipment.
- Having someone I can talk to in-person when there is a billing issue.

What we'll miss:

- Sprout. Kids love this channel, especially the Good Night show getting ready for bed. I'll have to record the shows off UNC-PBSKids and have them ready for them at night.
- Folders for recorded shows. Being able to see the descriptions on the right as I page through means finding an episode is easier than the pre-6.x DirecTIVO software, but not anywhere near as nice as the 6.x DirecTIVO software.

Service is a wash. I've had some billing and installation issues during the TWC setup, but DirecTV screwed me over on their Cinemax/HBO 2-for-1 deal at the same time (not ONE PLACE in the freakin' e-mail did it say that if you took the deal last year, you can't have it this year, too). At least TWC is fixing the issues as they occur.

Just my opinion but using the HR20 which I got for 99 bucks b/c I had the HD Tivo which they didn't take back, I noticed no difference between the HD locals on Directv and TW and OTA using a Mits CRT built in 2004. I had all 3 for a month back in Jan and couldn't tell the difference. When I viewed on my Sharp DLP projector I couldn't tell the difference either. As far as Cinemax HD goes, Directv doesn't have it as of yet but they should later this year. I didn't sub to it with TW so I can't comment there.

I agree Directv should have been more upfront with your 2 for 1 deal so that you understood things more clearly. Didn't have an issue with TWC billing as I pay online so it was all good.

Either one works for me so it's all love daddy!

As far as Cinemax HD goes, Directv doesn't have it as of yet but they should later this year. I didn't sub to it with TW so I can't comment there.


TW doesn't have it either.

TW doesn't have it either.
I missed something then. Oh well.

Just my opinion but using the HR20 which I got for 99 bucks b/c I had the HD Tivo which they didn't take back, I noticed no difference between the HD locals on Directv and TW and OTA using a Mits CRT built in 2004. I had all 3 for a month back in Jan and couldn't tell the difference. When I viewed on my Sharp DLP projector I couldn't tell the difference either. As far as Cinemax HD goes, Directv doesn't have it as of yet but they should later this year. I didn't sub to it with TW so I can't comment there.

I agree Directv should have been more upfront with your 2 for 1 deal so that you understood things more clearly. Didn't have an issue with TWC billing as I pay online so it was all good.

Either one works for me so it's all love daddy!

The TWC billing issue was one of us not getting an E-Bill through the bank. I've also had other issues getting this set up, and frankly were it not for a manager inside of TWC taking an interest and fixing everything to get me as a customer, I probably wouldn't be making the switch.

On the HR20 for $99, I asked a few months back about upgrade pricing from my HD-TIVO, and they wanted to charge me the going lease rate ($299+ at the time). Had they let me have it for $99, I'd've been MPEG-4 a few months back and not even looking at TWC. I paid $400 for the HD setup 4 years ago, and another $400 2 years ago for the HD-TIVO, I was not shelling out multiple-hundreds again to get the HD setup they were promising back in 2003 when I first made the leap.

On picture quality, the specific issues that have me jumping are:

- Overcompressing of SD signals. I remember trying to watch the Count of Monte Cristo a ways back and having the scenes in the dungeon be unwatchable because of all the banding in the low contrast scenes. I literally could not see what was going on. It just keeps getting worse as they've crammed in shopping channels.
- HD locals. DirecTV gets these OTA then compresses them again into their HDLite setup. This means a few things. One is way more breakups during storms (the locals are more susceptible because the OTA can get messed up by certain types of storms in addition to the sat tendency for rain fade). It also means that during NCAA time, TWC can deliver 4 HD feeds, OTA/Sat deliver 4 SD feeds.

Comparing them side-by-side right now, the SD in particular is VERY noticable to me.

Did anyone else notice WB22 not being HD Thursday night? I know the regular season is over, but I was watching a Smallville repeat and it was not HD. Neither was Supernatural afterwards.

Unfortunately I had to put my HDTV in for service Friday morning (completely unrelated reason) so I can't see if WB22 is back in HD for primetime anymore.

I was watching OTA, so don't know if this was an OTA-only thing or if Time-Warner customers would have seen the same problem as I did Thursday night.

I have read the past 15-20 pages and seen discussion of DirectTV vs. TWC. We are moving into the Fuquay area and I'm wondering what other opinions are for best HD service. Also phone/internet if you have one. Thanks all.....

- HD locals. DirecTV gets these OTA then compresses them again into their HDLite setup.

As I understand it unless you equate MPEG4 to HDLite this is not true. HDLite usually refers to downrezzing the 1080i signal. The HD locals are not downrezzed. It is true for the Raleigh area HD locals that the MPEG2 stream is captured from the OTA signal and is converted to MPEG4. MPEG4 is a newer codec than MPEG2 and compresses the stream very efficiently. Their converters seem to do a very good job and MPEG4 quality seems to be on par with MPEG2 to me. I've compared the MPEG4 picture to the MPEG2 OTA picture and I find it to be about the same.

I agree that Directv does downrez the national 1080i feeds that are still broadcast in MPEG2 and the quality of those channels is sometimes suspect. The 720p signals (ESPN, ESPN2) are not downrezzed and look fine. But, all the new HD feeds in Sept should be high quality since they'll also be in MPEG4.

When I got the HR20 they gave it to me for $99 and also gave me 6/mo credit on the monthly HD fee. I'm a long time Directivo user and find the HR20 to be better in some regards to the Tivo and worse in others.

I use TW cable for Internet and Vonage for phone.

Last I heard there were no 8300HD boxes available with firewire ports enabled. Has this changed?

I have not tried the replacement 8300HD we just received, but my previous one did allow me to record previously recorded shows via firewire.

Did anyone else notice WB22 not being HD Thursday night? I know the regular season is over, but I was watching a Smallville repeat and it was not HD. Neither was Supernatural afterwards.

Unfortunately I had to put my HDTV in for service Friday morning (completely unrelated reason) so I can't see if WB22 is back in HD for primetime anymore.

I was watching OTA, so don't know if this was an OTA-only thing or if Time-Warner customers would have seen the same problem as I did Thursday night.

I was watching "Everyone hates Chris" OTA and it was not in HD, even though it is supposed to be.

I have read the past 15-20 pages and seen discussion of DirectTV vs. TWC. We are moving into the Fuquay area and I'm wondering what other opinions are for best HD service. Also phone/internet if you have one. Thanks all.....

Time Warner for all. I'm near the fuquay high school. The Local phone service in fuquay is through a new company called Embarq. The Time Warner phone is a much better value.

And I get all the local HD's with an antenna in the attic.

When I got the HR20 they gave it to me for $99 and also gave me 6/mo credit on the monthly HD fee. I'm a long time Directivo user and find the HR20 to be better in some regards to the Tivo and worse in others.

When I called DirecTV to cancel on Saturday, they told me that the current upgrade pricing from an HR10-250 to HR20 was a $20 install fee. I told them that was nice, had they told me that 3 months ago when I asked I wouldn't be calling to cancel. Better yet, had they informed me (since I had inquired) about the cost reduction within the last 2 weeks, I wouldn't be calling to cancel. When they told me $300 3 months ago, that's when I started seriously considering TWC. You have to remember that I've been hearing the HD promise from DirecTV for 4 years now, and it was quite a knife-in-the-back to be told you have to pay up to get what we told you you'd be getting 4 years ago. Heck, they were demoing their MediaCenter-type PC for networked distribution of video 4 years ago, and I still can't get one.

I'm willing to admit I may regret this move in 6 months or a year, and if so maybe I'll go back (depending on how my TWC experience goes). I've just felt for a while that DirecTV's service (customer and actual video) was declining, and nothing they've done recently has disabused me of that notion.

I think as I said earlier in this thread, there is no "great" TV option in this area. It's "who is the least sucky at the moment?". It's easy to argue both sides of this case, because they each have some strong points, and they each have some glaring weaknesses. If one of them ever closes the weaknesses (or a third-party finally comes in and does so), they'll dominate the market. Right now, DirecTV's local weakness trumps TWC's lack of national HD for me, as does the wired vs sat delivery (I'm also screwed by being in a low point between hills which hinders OTA as well as lots of trees between me and the OTA towers and trees that make it difficult to align a dish for the sats), especially as football season rolls around.

I have read the past 15-20 pages and seen discussion of DirectTV vs. TWC. We are moving into the Fuquay area and I'm wondering what other opinions are for best HD service. Also phone/internet if you have one. Thanks all.....
It all depends on which HD channels you want, or how many. TWC has been LAST in HD and there is no reason to think that will ever change. Even when capacity is no longer an issue, they have proven they won't pull the trigger on new HD channels until every other provider has had them for years.
I would also not count on D* having 100 national HD channels in 2007 like they promise. DISH has been the HD leader up until this point and there is no reason to think things will change.
TWC is great for internet and Sunrocket ($199 a year) does the job for VOIP for me.

Right now, DirecTV's local weakness trumps TWC's lack of national HD for me

Hope the TWC thing works out for you. But, I still don't understand this statement. To me the picture quality of the Directv HD locals is outstanding. This is on my 50" Panny plasma.

I was watching "Everyone hates Chris" OTA and it was not in HD, even though it is supposed to be.

I wonder if they are having problems, or just not caring since the regular season is over for their shows... Unfortunately until I get my HDTV back I can't call them and ask since I would have no way of verifying if they actually fixed anything.

Maybe it will resolve by the time my set is fixed... fingers crossed.

It all depends on which HD channels you want, or how many. TWC has been LAST in HD and there is no reason to think that will ever change. Even when capacity is no longer an issue, they have proven they won't pull the trigger on new HD channels until every other provider has had them for years.
I would also not count on D* having 100 national HD channels in 2007 like they promise. DISH has been the HD leader up until this point and there is no reason to think things will change.
TWC is great for internet and Sunrocket ($199 a year) does the job for VOIP for me.

dslate69,

Where have you been ???? I just got back from doing a seven channel DirecTV HD Pro:Idiom commercial install (high end hotel) with seven additional OTA HD channels just outside NYC. I worked with a cable tech who was moonlighting from his "day" job. He filled me in on what's happening behind the scenes.

I was suprised to see Verizon FIOS, IO, Cablevision, and Time Warner spot ads in heavy rotation on local TV. Word on the street is the HD channel rollout on cable will be aggressive, timely, and extremely competative.

Dish may have gotten out of the gate early, but don't bet on the three legged horse. ;) ;) ;)

I wonder how much the four legged horse will charge/month for all these additional HD channels?

-DonB2

I wonder how much the four legged horse will charge/month for all these additional HD channels?

-DonB2

When you compare apples to apples, the pricing is actually pretty much consistant across competing technologies. The marketplace will determine value.

When I called DirecTV to cancel on Saturday, they told me that the current upgrade pricing from an HR10-250 to HR20 was a $20 install fee. I told them that was nice, had they told me that 3 months ago when I asked I wouldn't be calling to cancel. Better yet, had they informed me (since I had inquired) about the cost reduction within the last 2 weeks, I wouldn't be calling to cancel. When they told me $300 3 months ago, that's when I started seriously considering TWC. You have to remember that I've been hearing the HD promise from DirecTV for 4 years now, and it was quite a knife-in-the-back to be told you have to pay up to get what we told you you'd be getting 4 years ago. Heck, they were demoing their MediaCenter-type PC for networked distribution of video 4 years ago, and I still can't get one.

I'm willing to admit I may regret this move in 6 months or a year, and if so maybe I'll go back (depending on how my TWC experience goes). I've just felt for a while that DirecTV's service (customer and actual video) was declining, and nothing they've done recently has disabused me of that notion.

I think as I said earlier in this thread, there is no "great" TV option in this area. It's "who is the least sucky at the moment?". It's easy to argue both sides of this case, because they each have some strong points, and they each have some glaring weaknesses. If one of them ever closes the weaknesses (or a third-party finally comes in and does so), they'll dominate the market. Right now, DirecTV's local weakness trumps TWC's lack of national HD for me, as does the wired vs sat delivery (I'm also screwed by being in a low point between hills which hinders OTA as well as lots of trees between me and the OTA towers and trees that make it difficult to align a dish for the sats), especially as football season rolls around.

I have to admit, I am puzzled by your comments. I live just south of Chapel Hill, well ensconsed, low in the foothills, and couldn't get a lick of OTA for 2 years. But since I got my 5 LNB dish and HR-20/100 on April 2, I'm a very happy camper. Now I get all the locals, including their sports, and since the recent firmware updates, the Hr20 is a very pleasant surprise to me.

Yes, I'm not holding my breath for the "100" new channels, but I'm sure many or most will show up in time. Until then, I am content with all my new HD stations, and I'm recording shows with one touch I never would have bothered to do on my old DVR.

P.S. I had TWC when I lived in Myrtle Beach, and DTV cleans their clock. JMHO.

I guess everthing is relative to one's personal experiences. :)

$60/mo on Dish gets you an HD DVR and 25 HD channels (+ 5 OTA locals, which the Dish DVR supports), for a total of ~30 Hd channels.

$70/mo on TWC gets you Digipic1000 + DVR and 11 channels of HD (locals included in that total)
for $7 more ($77 total), you get 5 more HD channels.

DirectTV offers 8 HD channels + ~5 locals for $60/mo, for ~ the same # of ch as TWC.

In the past you had to plunk down $200 for the Satellite DVR equipment, but not any more.

These are the bottom-ish level of pkgs. But even if you option up the TWC and DirectTV pkgs, you cannot get the # of HD ch that Dish currently has.

DirectTV and TWC both promise they have LOTS of HD coming... some day.... if you want a good chuckle, search back in this thread to see how long more TWC HD has been promised as "any day now".

For the moment, IMO Dish is the clear winner. I don't expect any buyers remorse until close to my 18 month Dish contract is up.. at which point I'll happily examine my other options. Until then, I am saving $20/mo (with my new customer discount) and getting twice as much HD as I had with TWC.

Mike

$60/mo on Dish gets you an HD DVR and 25 HD channels (+ 5 OTA locals, which the Dish DVR supports), for a total of ~30 Hd channels.

$70/mo on TWC gets you Digipic1000 + DVR and 11 channels of HD (locals included in that total)
for $7 more ($77 total), you get 5 more HD channels.

DirectTV offers 8 HD channels + ~5 locals for $60/mo, for ~ the same # of ch as TWC.

In the past you had to plunk down $200 for the Satellite DVR equipment, but not any more.

These are the bottom-ish level of pkgs. But even if you option up the TWC and DirectTV pkgs, you cannot get the # of HD ch that Dish currently has.

DirectTV and TWC both promise they have LOTS of HD coming... some day.... if you want a good chuckle, search back in this thread to see how long more TWC HD has been promised as "any day now".

For the moment, IMO Dish is the clear winner. I don't expect any buyers remorse until close to my 18 month Dish contract is up.. at which point I'll happily examine my other options. Until then, I am saving $20/mo (with my new customer discount) and getting twice as much HD as I had with TWC.

Mike

Like lots of people here I can't receive OTA locals, so Dish was out for me. Also, I like the sports subscription packages on Directv and am not much interested in the Voom HD channels. Barring a satellite deployment problem I'm confident Directv will have lots of new HD channels in September. To each his own.

My comment on TWC winning out on the HD locals was based on:

1) The NCAA tourney is a great example: 4 HD games on TWC, 4 highly compressed SD games on OTA/SAT.

2) The Why is a bigger deal: DirecTV is getting the locals from an OTA source, TWC from a direct feed. When I try to watch certain shows (football was a great example back during the NFL season), the OTA side of things just looked blurrier, and as a result the SAT was not as clear (if it wasn't an HD football game, I couldn't watch it pretty much). I've checked out some similar sports programming recently, and the picture has been sharper on the TWC side. TWC can dedicate more bandwidth to this stuff, while OTA and DirecTV are more limited (at least for DirecTV on the MPEG-2 side, they've been compressing everything as much as they possibly can).

3) And of course there is the simple fact that I continue to get most of my locals OTA. It wasn't until I called DirecTV that I had an option of a cheap / free MPEG-4 upgrade. 3 months ago it was $300, now it's a free upgrade (as long as you call and already have an HR10-250). As I said much earlier, had they done that for me 3 months ago, or even notified me as recently as 2 weeks ago that I had the option, I likely would not be leaving.

Maybe a better way of saying all of this is:

(TWC HD = DirecTV MPEG4 HD) > DirecTV MPEG2 HD

Keep in mind I have no experience with DirecTV MPEG4 HD because I wasn't going to spend that $300 again (compared to TWC giving me 2 months free to compare the two side-by-side). My experience is with DirecTV MPEG2 HD / OTA HD. I woul also add that:

TWC SD > DirecTV SD

which is much of the programming still out there. Even my wife has started commenting on this, and she doesn't give a whit about which one we use or picture quality as long as she gets to watch her shows.

On the monetary comparisons, my TWC cable is more expensive than my equivalent DirecTV package. But I save $10/month on phone and internet, so it works out to just a couple of bucks per month difference. And I don't have to pay a dime for equipment, which evens that out.

On a final note, I don't even know if MPEG-4 DirecTV is an option for me. My dish is on my roof and barely eeks out the 3 MPEG-2 sats (and they worked hard to find a spot that would when I upgraded to HD). I have to actually arrange an install to find out if I've got the LOS.

I finally tired of the overcompressed SD and the vagaries of getting my HD through an antenna or a dish (rain fade, wind blowing the trees, spring vs fall, etc) and went with someone that runs a cable straight to my house and delivers me a high-quality signal on all channels, without charging me for equipment upgrades (and then having the gall to make it a "lease").

And of course if TWC drops the ball on me big-time, I always have the option of changing my mind and switching back. It's not like there was a clear-cut winner here.

"The marketplace will determine value. "

True, but it just seems like there are a lot of customers with deep pockets.

-Don

This morning ABC 11.1 was locking up on me. I have not had an issue with 11.1 in over a month.

I checked signal strength on my Samsung ATSC tuner and it was at 10 of 10.

Obviously I am experiencing more multipath problems. I had thought all the leaves were already on the trees and I was thru adjusting the antenna.

BTW- Does the back plane - chicken wire grid of my Attic Mounted CM 4228 have to be grounded to elimate multipath signals coming in on the backside of the antenna? Or can it float above ground plane?

I do have the coax shielded to ground but I believe it is factory isolated from the mast and grid.

-DonB2

dslate69,

Where have you been ????
I have a lot of HD channels eating up my free time. :)
Truth be told, I've been watching a lot of Noggin and playing UNO with my daughter.

I just got back from doing a seven channel DirecTV HD Pro:Idiom commercial install (high end hotel) with seven additional OTA HD channels just outside NYC. I worked with a cable tech who was moonlighting from his "day" job. He filled me in on what's happening behind the scenes.

I was suprised to see Verizon FIOS, IO, Cablevision, and Time Warner spot ads in heavy rotation on local TV. Word on the street is the HD channel rollout on cable will be aggressive, timely, and extremely competative.
Everything seems to happen behind the scenes. I can't tune my HDTV to "promises".

Dish may have gotten out of the gate early, but don't bet on the three legged horse. ;) ;) ;)
I can always switch my bet if and when someone passes the three legged horse.
Right now my horse is lapping the competition.

2) The Why is a bigger deal: DirecTV is getting the locals from an OTA source, TWC from a direct feed. When I try to watch certain shows (football was a great example back during the NFL season), the OTA side of things just looked blurrier, and as a result the SAT was not as clear (if it wasn't an HD football game, I couldn't watch it pretty much). I've checked out some similar sports programming recently, and the picture has been sharper on the TWC side. TWC can dedicate more bandwidth to this stuff, while OTA and DirecTV are more limited (at least for DirecTV on the MPEG-2 side, they've been compressing everything as much as they possibly can).



OTA channels typically give close to 20Mb/s to their HD sub channel. I highly doubt TW comes close to this. I thought it was generally accepted that the least compressed HD signal comes from OTA.

Salem

OTA channels typically give close to 20Mb/s to their HD sub channel. I highly doubt TW comes close to this. I thought it was generally accepted that the least compressed HD signal comes from OTA.

Salem

I hate TWC as much as the next guy, but this is false. The bandwidth given to HD channels OTA and on TW is identical. All TW does is to remodulate the signal (ATSC -> QAM). The MPEG2 data stream is passed through unchanged, except for altering the PSIP information.

Drew

I find the HD channel capacity arguement laughable. Here's a quote from this article.
http://www.tvpredictions.com/twhd060507.htm

"DIRECTV says it can offer more than than 150 High-Definition channels next year after it launches two new satellites. But Time Warner boasted yesterday that it will have "virtually unlimited" high-def capacity by year's end."

I really do hope Switch Digital is the second comming and TWC gets their act together with pricing. I think competition is great and can't wait till FIOS starts taking market share and forces TWC to act in their subscribers interest instead of their own.

But right now, I can't see why anyone would buy Ice Cream from a Tractor Trailer sized Ice Cream truck that only has 15 flavors when their is a regular sized truck that carries more than twice as many.

I hate TWC as much as the next guy, but this is false. The bandwidth given to HD channels OTA and on TW is identical. All TW does is to remodulate the signal (ATSC -> QAM). The MPEG2 data stream is passed through unchanged, except for altering the PSIP information.

Drew

To be fair, what you just said doesn't make Salem's statement false.

I believe what he said was that OTA is the least compressed. I think in most situations you will find that to be true. Cable can match that level of quality, and sometimes they may do it... but traditionally cable has not matched the highest quality OTA.

Some channels (not sure about in our area) don't give full bandwidth to their HD... and in those cases it may be possible for cable to exceed OTA if they get a direct fiber feed from the station... but I'm not sure how many stations are doing that nationally.

I have seen HD on Time Warner... and while I generally hate cable with a passion for more reasons than are worth going into... I've seen a very favorable comparison with Time Warner in the Raleigh area and the HD they are offering, in terms of quality of signal.

To be fair, what you just said doesn't make Salem's statement false.

I believe what he said was that OTA is the least compressed.

What he said is that "OTA channels typically give close to 20Mb/s", which is false, in and of itself in this area. The major networks typically give about 12-14Mb/s to HD, and dedicate the rest to SD simulcasts, kids channels, and worthless weather channels. The lesser networks (WLFL, WRDC) here don't seem to be using simulcasts, and give full bandwidth to HD.

Further, he seemed to imply that TWC re-compresses the signal and lowers the bitrate of the local HD channels, which, at least in this area, is not true.

The only time locally that I remember TWC having worse signal quality than OTA was some time last year, when they had trouble picking up NBC17's signal due to some weird interference.


Drew

"BTW- Does the back plane - chicken wire grid of my Attic Mounted CM 4228 have to be grounded to elimate multipath signals coming in on the backside of the antenna? Or can it float above ground plane?

I do have the coax shielded to ground but I believe it is factory isolated from the mast and grid"

Anyone have an idea?

-DonB2

"BTW- Does the back plane - chicken wire grid of my Attic Mounted CM 4228 have to be grounded to elimate multipath signals coming in on the backside of the antenna? Or can it float above ground plane?

I do have the coax shielded to ground but I believe it is factory isolated from the mast and grid"

Anyone have an idea?

-DonB2
Antenna reflectors are designed to work in "free-space".
Indoors, you don't need to "ground" it.

Holl_ands,

Thanks,

DonB2

What he said is that "OTA channels typically give close to 20Mb/s", which is false, in and of itself in this area. The major networks typically give about 12-14Mb/s to HD, and dedicate the rest to SD simulcasts, kids channels, and worthless weather channels. The lesser networks (WLFL, WRDC) here don't seem to be using simulcasts, and give full bandwidth to HD.

Further, he seemed to imply that TWC re-compresses the signal and lowers the bitrate of the local HD channels, which, at least in this area, is not true.

The only time locally that I remember TWC having worse signal quality than OTA was some time last year, when they had trouble picking up NBC17's signal due to some weird interference.


Drew

Oops, you are right. I was looking at the transport stream bandwidth (raw data rate from my tuner). That includes all the sub-channels. So I think your estimates of 12-14Mb/s for a single OTA HD channel are probably much closer.

That being said, I still would be surprised if TW is giving you the same amount of bandwidth. If you have a link to share about this please let me know!

Best wishes,
Salem

One would think all trees here in Raleigh area would be fully in bloome and I would not have to make any more spring time adjustments to my attic mounted 4228.

But.. I lost 40.1 - no big deal there

11.1 started showing signs of multipath issues last week.

47.1 - last night I got the "no signal".

I just find it odd that I am having to adjust the antenna this late in the year and really am not sure if rotating the antenna will improve 47.1 or not as the signal is pretty weak to begin with.

-DonB2

One would think all trees here in Raleigh area would be fully in bloome and I would not have to make any more spring time adjustments to my attic mounted 4228.

But.. I lost 40.1 ...

Ah Caramba!!!

dslate69 ,

Ha Ha funny.

But honestly my reception issues are holding me back on getting a ATSC DVD recorder as I don't want to be recording "No Signal".

I am almost ready to get TWC :mad:

I may try a rotor first, but it just amazes me that the ATSC DVD recorder people have not gotten together with the Rotor people and come up with some kind of seemless interface that will rotate the antenna thru the DVD recorder for timed recordings.

Well I am not really amazed as the latest crop of ATSC DVD recorders all have some sort of design problem.

I am looking at the Panasonic line which I can get thru Dell with a $100.00 coupon I got to use up before end of June.

-DonwanB2

dslate69 ,

Ha Ha funny.

But honestly my reception issues are holding me back on getting a ATSC DVD recorder as I don't want to be recording "No Signal".

I am almost ready to get TWC :mad:

I may try a rotor first, but it just amazes me that the ATSC DVD recorder people have not gotten together with the Rotor people and come up with some kind of seemless interface that will rotate the antenna thru the DVD recorder for timed recordings.

Well I am not really amazed as the latest crop of ATSC DVD recorders all have some sort of design problem.

I am looking at the Panasonic line which I can get thru Dell with a $100.00 coupon I got to use up before end of June.

-DonwanB2

We haven't had to make any adjustments. Can you get it higher? put it outside? try some dipole rabbit ears?

"We haven't had to make any adjustments. Can you get it higher? put it outside? try some dipole rabbit ears? "

That is kinda what is surprising me.

We even cut the limbs back from the house last year. I would think that would have helped reception this summer.

I sware I did not adjust postion this much last summer but than I had two attic mounted attennas on a A/B switch and now I just have the one 4228 and which is boosted and have given up on PBS for the summer.

I may be able to raise the antenna in the attic another 6 inches or so.

Can't put it outside as the misses would not be happy.

Maybe I should try a lucky rabbits foot instead of rabbits ears.

Is your antenna in the attic or on the roof?

Maybe my Samsung ATSC STB tuner is going bad.

Bottomline is it is frustrating.

-DonB2

I have also noticed some (seemingly) strange reception behavior using the new CM 4220 antenna I mounted in the attic about a week ago. I am in Cary near Bond Park and antennaweb says I should point the antenna at 123 degrees to point at the tower for most of the local HD stations (in Garner, I think). When I first got it hooked up, I was getting everything local very clear and even picking up more distant stations form Greensboro, so I was very pleased.

Over the last week, though, the strength of signal for the local stations seems to fluctuate quite a bit in the mornings, but moreso in the evenings. Not sure yet if there is any pattern to this. But at times the signal is strong enough that I don't get any pixelization (which seems to show up when the signal drops below 60). But other times, the signal is weaker and I do get drop-out. Could there be something that causes variable interference? Cell tower traffic, perhaps?

That being said, I still would be surprised if TW is giving you the same amount of bandwidth.

Where would the bandwidth go? The cable QAM signal holds 38Mb/s per multiplexed channel vs the 19Mb/s provided by the OTA ATSC signal. TWC puts up to 2 OTA "multiplexes" on a QAM multiplex. The last I checked with dvbtraffshow (when I had TWC service), the video signals had identical bandwidth.

Drew

Anyone know a good place to find an old DirecTV receiver (SD) for cheap (or free ;)? My dad is moving and, for some reason, they have it in the contract to leave a receiver. He doesn't want to leave his DirecTivo, so we're looking for an old basic receiver to leave behind (I threw mine out, apparently).

Charles

5.1 now has the Tony Awards Show in SD on the QAM tuner. Yet it's listed as being available in HD. Something is wrong at some level whether it's TW, WRAL or on up the line.

5.1 now has the Tony Awards Show in SD on the QAM tuner. Yet it's listed as being available in HD. Something is wrong at some level whether it's TW, WRAL or on up the line.

Just checked and here in the GSP/AVL Market, WSPA is broadcasting it in SD, not HD. So, it appears to be the network level that made the decision for SD over HD.

Anybody else seeing a strange red/blue banding kind of effect on WTVD? I have tried OTA and also via satellite since Dish has WTVD-11 in HD... and both exhibit the same problem.

Most noticable when there is white near the top of the screen. I know it isn't my TV or my receiver, because I do not see this on any other channel (be it OTA or via satellite). I also checked the 1080i channels vs 720p channels thinking maybe it could be an upconverting effect... but no other channel except WTVD11 is doing this.

I first noticed during the NBA game tonight, and thought it might be an ABC thing... but it is still happening with Alias on the late-night program block.

It mainly shows up like I said with lighter/white backgrounds... and looks like a red/blue banding effect almost as if you were watching and there was something behind the picture or something. During dark scenes you cannot see it.

Just curious if anyone else sees this since I am pretty sure I am not imagining it!

FWIW, there is a thread on the mythtv mailing list regarding what we've seen locally. (http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/mythtv/users/271696) which seems to confirm that the telecine and length issues are related. There's also a link to a discussion of the encoder another NBC affiliate is using, which somewhat vindicates my fuzzy recollection that this started happening on NBC when NBC17 upgraded their equipment..

Drew

Thank you SO much! I've been trying to figure out why MythTV isn't deinterlacing some content on some channels... it's been killing me. Found your posts in a Google search and this seems like the reason. I don't suppose in the last couple of weeks you've come up with an answer to the problem, have you? I've got 3 stations that exhibit this problem in my market (Portland, OR) and having to manually change the channel to "interlaced" every time is a pain in the butt.

If you have figured out a solution I'd be curious to know what it is.

Thanks,

d

Thank you SO much! I've been trying to figure out why MythTV isn't deinterlacing some content on some channels... it's been killing me. Found your posts in


I have not figured out a solution. I'm a little curious -- do local users of other DVR software (SageTV, BeyondTV, MediaCenter) see the same issue as MythTV does for most non-live recordings on NBC and CBS?

Drew

Anyone know a good place to find an old DirecTV receiver (SD) for cheap (or free ;)? My dad is moving and, for some reason, they have it in the contract to leave a receiver. He doesn't want to leave his DirecTivo, so we're looking for an old basic receiver to leave behind (I threw mine out, apparently).

Charles

It sounds like your father is selling he the house and that the TIVO requirement is in his sales contract. I would suggest he just leave it and buy a new box. If the new owner goes looking for the TIVO and finds an old Directv SD box he may want compensation to replace it, then you are dealing with lawyers, courts and lots of wasted time for an old TIVO. You would not believe the problems people cause by taking items they agreed to leave when they signed the contract to sell the dwelling, be it window shades, mirrors, or sat equipment.

I have a TiVo Series 3 with no cablecards right now (OTA HD and analog cable). According to the TWC web site the digital channels available to me "vary." I understand that likely has something to do with SDV deployment, and I'm resigned to that. What I'd like to know is exactly what channels I can and cannot get using CableCards.

Well, I tried to do the right thing and ask TWC this question, but their online folks told me I had to call, and the call center folks told me I could get everything except VOD and PPV via the CableCards. The thing is, I'm pretty sure I've seen other RDU folks say you can't get the digital simulcast of the basic/standard channels at the least. I also thought SDV had already started rolling out in the RDU area, so I would be out of luck for anything there. I'm particularly interested in the digital versions of 1 - 99, the digital variety pack (100 - 199) and the HD stuff *not* in the HD Suite (Discovery HD Theater, TNTHD, EPSNHD and ESPN2HD).

I asked a number of different ways and tried to stress the digital part (especially with the analog channels), and the nice woman just kept telling me I could get "everything just fine." Anyone know the actual answer?

P.S. I know I could get everything if I get a TWC DVR. I know I could switch to Dish or DirecTV. I know I can get most of the HD in this area OTA (which I do). That's not what I'm asking about, so I'm hoping my question won't devolve into TWC vs. everyone else. ;)

The thing is, I'm pretty sure I've seen other RDU folks say you can't get the digital simulcast of the basic/standard channels at the least.
That's correct. When the CableCARD is installed and you tune to a channel in the 2 to 76 range (Basic and Standard), it tunes to the analog version, not the digital version.

However, if the CableCARD is not installed, some receivers can tune to digital versions of 2 through 24 (Basic), by tuning to their physical channel numbers, but they still cannot receive the digital versions of 25 through 76 (Standard) because they are encrypted.
I'm particularly interested in the digital versions of 1 - 99, the digital variety pack (100 - 199) and the HD stuff *not* in the HD Suite (Discovery HD Theater, TNTHD, EPSNHD and ESPN2HD).
I can receive those HD channels with CableCARD. I think I can receive all of the Digital Variety channels, although I have not tried every single one of them.

Pursuant to FCC regulations, WFMY-TV (CBS), Greensboro, North Carolina, is no longer deemed “significantly viewed” in Durham and Hillsborough, NC for programming exclusivity purposes. WFMY-TV will be removed from the Carrboro System effective July 5, 2007.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/NC/programming/channelChangeUpdate.html
so it seems there's some analog free here next month. How will they use it? Hmm.

NCCaniac ,

I wish I had some answers for you. If I did it would probably help my issues also. :)

I can have 100 percent signal strength on 11.1 and than have it lock up because of multipath issues. But these same multipath issues seem to come and go. Consequently moving the antenna does not appear to be a long term fix.

I am about ready to buy a rotor but don't see how I can time record shows on two different channels if the rotor has to be in a different position for each show.

I really thought I was through adjusting the attic mounted antenna when I finally gave up trying to get PBS on it as well as the other stations.

Not sure if sun spot activity causes issues or not.

One thing I have been told is that attic mounted antennas can constantly cause reception issus. I wish this was not true as roof mounting is not a option.

HDMe2,

Have not notice this issue you mention on 11.1 but will look for it.

-Donb2

One thing I have been told is that attic mounted antennas can constantly cause reception issus. I wish this was not true as roof mounting is not a option.

I can vouch for this. I had my Channel Master in the attic and I had constant multipath problems with NBC 17. I was fortunate that a roof mount wasn't that big a deal, so I did it at the same time I mounted the satellite dish. After that NBC came in without a problem. I recently got a TiVo Series 3, and the tuner is sensitive enough that I can even get WUNC off the back of the antenna, something I could never get to work with my old DirecTV HDTiVo.

I have a TiVo Series 3 with no cablecards right now (OTA HD and analog cable). According to the TWC web site the digital channels available to me "vary." I understand that likely has something to do with SDV deployment, and I'm resigned to that. What I'd like to know is exactly what channels I can and cannot get using CableCards.

Well, I tried to do the right thing and ask TWC this question, but their online folks told me I had to call, and the call center folks told me I could get everything except VOD and PPV via the CableCards. The thing is, I'm pretty sure I've seen other RDU folks say you can't get the digital simulcast of the basic/standard channels at the least. I also thought SDV had already started rolling out in the RDU area, so I would be out of luck for anything there. I'm particularly interested in the digital versions of 1 - 99, the digital variety pack (100 - 199) and the HD stuff *not* in the HD Suite (Discovery HD Theater, TNTHD, EPSNHD and ESPN2HD).

I asked a number of different ways and tried to stress the digital part (especially with the analog channels), and the nice woman just kept telling me I could get "everything just fine." Anyone know the actual answer?

P.S. I know I could get everything if I get a TWC DVR. I know I could switch to Dish or DirecTV. I know I can get most of the HD in this area OTA (which I do). That's not what I'm asking about, so I'm hoping my question won't devolve into TWC vs. everyone else. ;)

I've got a cablecard installed in my Sony 32" Bravia here in Cary and to quote the nice woman, I get "everything just fine". I get all channels except for the on-demand channels which was expected. I even get the MusicChoice channels...

I have not figured out a solution. I'm a little curious -- do local users of other DVR software (SageTV, BeyondTV, MediaCenter) see the same issue as MythTV does for most non-live recordings on NBC and CBS?

Drew

I'm using Media Center 2005, and everything seems normal for CBS and NBC, both OTA and QAM. My recording of "Studio 60" shows 1:03 for the length.

HDMe2,

Have not notice this issue you mention on 11.1 but will look for it.

-Donb2

Thanks.. Still doing it today on WTVD OTA, and still not on any other OTA or satellite channels.

I asked my father to check, but he is with Time Warner Cable... so if it is an OTA issue, I am not sure he will see it if WTVD is doing like WRAL and sending fiber connection to Time Warner for their broadcast.

It is really subtle, and you kinda have to be looking for it... but it looks sort-of like when you watch a film and something is on the lens so it projects onto every frame... Of course we aren't dealing with film here... but perhaps something in their broadcast equipment is out of adjustment and adding this "noise" to the broadcast?

This question(s) is from a visitor from Asheville: My recent acquisition of an HR20-100 from D* has not been without problems, and I find no help here. Local HD (LIL) channels often show grainy disolves and fades (not pixelized). I don't see this with the HR20's OTA HD. Last night, I had frequent short bursts of pixelization from both Satellite HD channels and LIL HD. From time to time there is an out-of-synch problem...usually the network HD programs and the Local into Local feeds. (I have never switched to OTA HD and found the same problem.)
A second problem, is I can find no way to pause watching for such reasons as a phone call, without going through the lengthy "menu" change.
Raleigh, do you have answers?

Following up my own problem...

I have 2 different TVs exhibiting this same problem. One is a 65" HDTV connected to a Dish ViP622 receiver, the other is a 32" standard TV connected to an Accurian digital OTA receiver.

I have no problems on any other OTA or satellite channels... but WTVD 11 OTA on both receivers/TVs has the same strange red/blue faint vertical line pattern across the top 6-8 inches of the screen. It looks like if you were projecting onto a screen and something was on or behind the screen for lack of a better way of describing it.

Definately something in the WTVD OTA signal, and not my receivers or TVs. It is hard to spot at first, but once you see it you can't miss it. Most noticable on lighter backgrounds. Is there during HD and SD broadcasts (WTVD11.1 seems to always be a 720p signal even during SD programming) and I suspect it is something in their broadcast equipment.

May or may not be visible on cable, if Time Warner gets a direct feed from them. But since I don't have cable I can't say... just that it definately is an OTA problem.

For the record, I have a solid lock and high signal strength for both receivers/TVs.

Am getting close to calling WTVD but not sure I can describe this symptom in a way that will make sense to them unless they can see it on a TV themselves.

HDMe2 ,

Maybe some noise is being intruduced thru your cable line and it just happens to be in the same frequency range as 11.1.

Do you have a old STB UHF antenna that you could connect with a short length of coax to your tv and see if the issue goes away?

-Donb2

Is anybody else getting what appears to be multipath issues from anything at Garner ? I get everything (analog and digital) great - EXCEPT WNCN's Digital. My Samsung is showing wild shifts in signal strength (0 - 5/6 bars to 0). Any ideas on the best way to fix this ?

Current UHF antenna - CM3021 (4 bay), with Winegard AP4700 19 dB pre-amp. Location 36.00 N 78.45 W - in the middle of a forest. Everything else is steady. Antenna at about 30-35 feet AGL.

I've got a cablecard installed in my Sony 32" Bravia here in Cary and to quote the nice woman, I get "everything just fine". I get all channels except for the on-demand channels which was expected. I even get the MusicChoice channels...

Are you getting the digital versions of the analog basic/standard channels (1 - 76)? I might actually pay the extra $20 a month it'll cost to go from the analog standard package to Digipix 1000 with a couple of cable cards if I could get the digital versions of 1 - 76. Watching Sci-Fi analog is painful.

Reception Report:

Picking up WTVD-HD and WRDC-HD 90 miles southeast this evening very strong. No WRAL or WNCN however. WTVD has Jeopardy! in HD too. :) Lots of bass in their DD audio.

I have a TiVo Series 3 with no cablecards right now (OTA HD and analog cable). According to the TWC web site the digital channels available to me "vary." I understand that likely has something to do with SDV deployment, and I'm resigned to that. What I'd like to know is exactly what channels I can and cannot get using CableCards.
I asked a number of different ways and tried to stress the digital part (especially with the analog channels), and the nice woman just kept telling me I could get "everything just fine." Anyone know the actual answer?

P.S. I know I could get everything if I get a TWC DVR. I know I could switch to Dish or DirecTV. I know I can get most of the HD in this area OTA (which I do). That's not what I'm asking about, so I'm hoping my question won't devolve into TWC vs. everyone else. ;)

I have one TV with a cable card and one with the SA8300. The cable card set tunes the digital version of channels 2-76, although it may vary from node to node based on TWC's progress towards SDV.

My 2 cents: the cable card is a good option on a second set, but without an interactive guide, it really makes finding something to watch a struggle.

Reception Report:

Picking up WTVD-HD and WRDC-HD 90 miles southeast this evening very strong. No WRAL or WNCN however. WTVD has Jeopardy! in HD too. :) Lots of bass in their DD audio.

I'm glad someone else noticed the excessive bass in WTVD's DD audio. Annoying.

WLFL and WRDC have dropped the gray side bars. Good riddance, not that I ever watch either of them.

I have one TV with a cable card and one with the SA8300. The cable card set tunes the digital version of channels 2-76, although it may vary from node to node based on TWC's progress towards SDV.

My 2 cents: the cable card is a good option on a second set, but without an interactive guide, it really makes finding something to watch a struggle.

Hmmm, looks like the only way I'll know for sure is to do the install then. Unless someone knows someone who can tell me whether I can get the digital versions of 2 - 76 based on my address.

As for the interactive guide, the Series 3 has a guide. I really don't need another. ;)

WTVD 11 OTA on both receivers/TVs has the same strange red/blue faint vertical line pattern across the top 6-8 inches of the screen. It looks like if you were projecting onto a screen and something was on or behind the screen

If I watch something recorded on WTVD 11 on my computer in a window, I see 10 or 20 pixes of corruption in the top center of the screen. See the attached section of a screenshot. Could this be what is causing your problems? On my TV, there is enough overscan that I don't notice the issue.

Drew

If I watch something recorded on WTVD 11 on my computer in a window, I see 10 or 20 pixes of corruption in the top center of the screen. See the attached section of a screenshot. Could this be what is causing your problems? On my TV, there is enough overscan that I don't notice the issue.

Drew

Someone once told me that this "static" exists on some/all channels as a way of encoding some kind of information. I think it is normal.

HDMe2 ,

On Good Morning America 11.1, I saw vertical bars on the top right quadrant of the screen. The bars were about the full length of the this qaudrant if you split your screen into four pieces.

The bars were alternating two colors and the two colors varied with what the image was at the time.

One bar was typically same color as background.

The bars were about half a pencil width wide on by 43 inch Pioneer Plasma.

This is with OTA ATSC reception.

At first I had to get up close to the screen to see them. But what I saw them I could see them from a distance and they were there almost all the time as far as I could tell.

-DonB2

If I watch something recorded on WTVD 11 on my computer in a window, I see 10 or 20 pixes of corruption in the top center of the screen. See the attached section of a screenshot. Could this be what is causing your problems? On my TV, there is enough overscan that I don't notice the issue.

Drew

Thanks, but no that's not it. Your image shows some of the "garbled stuff" (for lack of a better word) that is at the extreme edges of several channels. Most folks never see it as it is cutoff by overscan, but it is sometimes visible.

HDMe2 ,

On Good Morning America 11.1, I saw vertical bars on the top right quadrant of the screen. The bars were about the full length of the this qaudrant if you split your screen into four pieces.

The bars were alternating two colors and the two colors varied with what the image was at the time.

One bar was typically same color as background.

The bars were about half a pencil width wide on by 43 inch Pioneer Plasma.

This is with OTA ATSC reception.

At first I had to get up close to the screen to see them. But what I saw them I could see them from a distance and they were there almost all the time as far as I could tell.

-DonB2

That sounds spot on to what I'm seeing! I think you found it. It is actually on the
left-hand quadrant as well but not quite as noticable as the right-hand side.

I don't know how I saw them the first time the other night, quite by accident.. but now that you see what I'm talking about once you see them you can see them much easier later.

To answer your earlier question.. My 2nd TV is not even an HDTV but I have it connected to an antenna (different antenna since both of mine are indoor antennas) on a different set-top box.. and Channel 11 there exhibits the same problem.

At least I know it isn't my eyes since someone else is seeing it! Anyone here know a good WTVD Tech to get in touch with to try and describe the problem to them and see if they can find it and fix it?

If I had to guess, I'd say that they have a problem somewhere between when it leaves their studio equipment and gets to the antenna on the tower. But I'd have to speak to someone there who could understand based on the weird description and someone patient enough to look and sit there until he can see it.

I can vouch for this. I had my Channel Master in the attic and I had constant multipath problems with NBC 17. I was fortunate that a roof mount wasn't that big a deal, so I did it at the same time I mounted the satellite dish. After that NBC came in without a problem. I recently got a TiVo Series 3, and the tuner is sensitive enough that I can even get WUNC off the back of the antenna, something I could never get to work with my old DirecTV HDTiVo.

I guess that could be it, but where I have the CM 4220 mounted in the attic, it is pointing directly "out" through the side wall, not even through the rafters, so there is not a lot "in the way" compared to if it were outside.

I also seem to get WUNC just fine off the back, so if I can get the front tweaked on the position to get better signals from the Garner tower with less drop-out, I may be good to go without having to consider mounting it outside. The antenna itself is certainly doing a good job of pulling in signal since I even pick up signals from some Greensboro HD stations that are supposedly just outside the range of the CM 4220.

HDMe2 .

I thought there was a 11.1 technician who was monitoring this board. Awhile back he asked us to keep an eye on 11.1 for an unrelated issue- But hey I could be wrong.

NCCaniac,

Some one on this board last year explained that atmospheric conditions can impact our reception. As I recall it was more related to long distance atmospheric bounce but maybe it also is casuing multipath issues.

I wonder if sunspot activity can cause issues?

It is all darn frustrating and making me rethink getting a digital DVD recorder vs just biting the bullet and getting cable with a Tivo or the like.

I have given up on Dish or Direct tv as I can barely receive Sirious radio at my house in Holly Springs. Just too many very tall pine trees.

-Don

HDMe2 .

I thought there was a 11.1 technician who was monitoring this board. Awhile back he asked us to keep an eye on 11.1 for an unrelated issue- But hey I could be wrong.

NCCaniac,

Some one on this board last year explained that atmospheric conditions can impact our reception. As I recall it was more related to long distance atmospheric bounce but maybe it also is casuing multipath issues.

I wonder if sunspot activity can cause issues?

It is all darn frustrating and making me rethink getting a digital DVD recorder vs just biting the bullet and getting cable with a Tivo or the like.

I have given up on Dish or Direct tv as I can barely receive Sirious radio at my house in Holly Springs. Just too many very tall pine trees.

-Don

I have the rabbit ear antenna in the attic, right up against a wall. The garner stations have been solid since my christmas install, and UNC only gives occasional breakups (maybe once a week).

When I was installing, i tuned to 22.1, cranked the volume up, and moved the antenna around until I heard a constant signal.

The antenna is right in the middle of my attic, sitting on a rafter, right up against the wall.

"The antenna is right in the middle of my attic, sitting on a rafter, right up against the wall. "

Okay I will bite how can it be up against a wall if it is in the middle of the attic?

-DonB2

Okay I will bite how can it be up against a wall if it is in the middle of the attic?

I'd say "middle" of one axis (i.e. North/South) and at the far extreme (against the wall) for the other (i.e. East/West).

"I'd say "middle" of one axis (i.e. North/South) and at the far extreme (against the wall) for the other (i.e. East/West). "

Must be a different attic than mine.

In mine I have cross beams that end at the start off the roof section.

I could maybe place an antenna against the pitched roof section but I would not be able to place it against a wall.


-DonB2

"On Good Morning America 11.1, I saw vertical bars on the top right quadrant of the screen. The bars were about the full length of the this qaudrant if you split your screen into four pieces.

The bars were alternating two colors and the two colors varied with what the image was at the time.

One bar was typically same color as background."

That sounds spot on to what I'm seeing! I think you found it. It is actually on the
left-hand quadrant as well but not quite as noticable as the right-hand side.

I don't know how I saw them the first time the other night, quite by accident.. but now that you see what I'm talking about once you see them you can see them much easier later.



I could see this problem clearly tonight on "Traveler". This was via clear QAM through Time Warner, so it's not just an OTA problem. I'm using a Windows Media Center, so I should be able to get a clear screenshot of the problem. I'll post it when I have it.

There must be some problem at WTVD with their encoder or something. It's a very 'digital' artifact with hard edges and uniform pattern.

"I'd say "middle" of one axis (i.e. North/South) and at the far extreme (against the wall) for the other (i.e. East/West). "

Must be a different attic than mine.

In mine I have cross beams that end at the start off the roof section.

I could maybe place an antenna against the pitched roof section but I would not be able to place it against a wall.


-DonB2

The right side of our house is higher than the left side of our house. But the attic runs the entire length.

I have also noticed the crazy bass in WTVDs 11.1 signal. When Dancing With the Stars was on it sounded liek a disco in our living room and every time someone brushed a mike or something, I could hear it. Usually, my dogs would leave the room it was so loud.

SugarBowl ,

Well in that case I best look for your style house when I move!!

It sounds like a salt box style but I am no expert.

-DonB2

Interesting in that reception appears to have improved this week. Even my mobile Sirius has improved.

-DonB2

Here are the screen shots of the odd bars in the WTVD signal. It shows up on both network and local programming and via OTA and QAM. These are resized to 480p, but they still show the problem well.

I put arrows in this shot to show the edges where it starts
http://home.nc.rr.com/bhall/htpics/shot1.png

Here it is on local programming
http://home.nc.rr.com/bhall/htpics/shot3.png

I pumped up the brightness in this one to enhance the pattern. This was just a black field in the background
http://home.nc.rr.com/bhall/htpics/shot4.png

Some odd bands going through it in this one
http://home.nc.rr.com/bhall/htpics/shot5.png

This one shows how it changes color with the image. The lines are similar to her hair color right next to her, but are more reddish on the darker background.
http://home.nc.rr.com/bhall/htpics/shot6.png

Any WTVD engineers reading?

halljb .

Those are exactly the bars that I am seeing.

Thanks,

-DonB2

halljb,

GREAT job on the captures. Very clearly illustrates what I have been seeing since last Thursday. Could have been happening before that, but I first noticed during game 1 of the NBA finals last week (yes, I have been watching!)

Incidentally, I have noticed today that my WTVD OTA is having more breakups (multipath perhaps) problems than usual. I haven't done anything to my antenna configuration, but I know we have had weather in the area so I've been waiting for the skies to clear before worrying too much.

Glad to see others are seeing the "banding".. I also see, like in one of your captures, sometimes a semi-rounded pattern in there... makes me wonder if a logo or something is being half-masked in there from somewhere else.

Hopefully someone is around here from WTVD who can look into it. I'm still pretty sure if I called them about this they would think I was crazy or something trying to describe it.

Interesting in that reception appears to have improved this week. Even my mobile Sirius has improved.

-DonB2

ohhh don't tell me that, I was thinking I finally got my antenna in an acceptable spot!
Salem

halljb,

GREAT job on the captures. Very clearly illustrates what I have been seeing since last Thursday. Could have been happening before that, but I first noticed during game 1 of the NBA finals last week (yes, I have been watching!)

Incidentally, I have noticed today that my WTVD OTA is having more breakups (multipath perhaps) problems than usual. I haven't done anything to my antenna configuration, but I know we have had weather in the area so I've been waiting for the skies to clear before worrying too much.

Glad to see others are seeing the "banding".. I also see, like in one of your captures, sometimes a semi-rounded pattern in there... makes me wonder if a logo or something is being half-masked in there from somewhere else.

Hopefully someone is around here from WTVD who can look into it. I'm still pretty sure if I called them about this they would think I was crazy or something trying to describe it.

E-mail their engineering department your screen captures, along with confirmation that others are seeing it as well.

Yes, it's still there today.

E-mail their engineering department your screen captures, along with confirmation that others are seeing it as well.

Yes, it's still there today.

I emailed them right after I posted here. No response yet unfortunately.

Nobody has mentioned that WLFL and WRDC dropped the grey sidesbars, so I will. :D

Nobody has mentioned that WLFL and WRDC dropped the grey sidesbars, so I will. :D

I don't watch WRDC much... but I did notice on WLFL. Since it is repeat season now, I am not watching as much OTA TV as usual so I wasn't sure if this was an experiment or a permanent change on their part.

Hmmm, looks like the only way I'll know for sure is to do the install then. Unless someone knows someone who can tell me whether I can get the digital versions of 2 - 76 based on my address.

As for the interactive guide, the Series 3 has a guide. I really don't need another. ;)

With 2 cablecards in my S3 and TWC Apex, I get analog versions of channels under 100. You can verify this several ways... 1) When you record one of these channels, you are offered a 'quality' option and 2) the 'signal strength' function doesnt work on those channels.

I kinda liked the gray bars (both on the two Sinclair channels as well as when FOX50 had them). If something was in SD with black bars that wasnt supposed to be, I easily knew whether it was on the network end or a local issue.

With 2 cablecards in my S3 and TWC Apex, I get analog versions of channels under 100. You can verify this several ways... 1) When you record one of these channels, you are offered a 'quality' option and 2) the 'signal strength' function doesnt work on those channels.

I was wondering when you were going to pipe up. I thought I'd remembered that you got an S3 pretty early. The analog channels are hard to watch, but if I'm not gonna get the digital versions with a digital package I'll just drop our digital service. I have an OTA antenna for the HD stuff, so there isn't much we watch on cable anyway. I'll just hold tight and hope that either TWC makes the digital simulcasts available to cable card users or someone comes up with a solution for the SDV conundrum.

I am still noticing break up on 11.1.

My Samsung STB latest model shows ten bars but while I am watching the show I see pixelization at same time.

COuld be evidence of multipath but not sure in this case as typically in the past when I had Multipath issues I would also see the signal strength drop off to 1 or 2 bars and than back up to ten.

I rotated the antenna slightly in the attic but I can only raise it about 6 inches more and than is only because it is presently in a position between roof rafters.

I am thinking about bending the corners of the 4228 chicken wire over to clear the rafters.

I need a stealth invisible antenna to put on the roof.

DonB2

I was wondering when you were going to pipe up. I thought I'd remembered that you got an S3 pretty early. The analog channels are hard to watch, but if I'm not gonna get the digital versions with a digital package I'll just drop our digital service. I have an OTA antenna for the HD stuff, so there isn't much we watch on cable anyway. I'll just hold tight and hope that either TWC makes the digital simulcasts available to cable card users or someone comes up with a solution for the SDV conundrum.

I believe they reason they didnt make them available was to avoid any 'takeaways' when SDV appears.

The S3 does a great job with Analog and the quality seem pretty good. Digital HD - TNTHD is about to get interesting with The Closer and a couple new summer series. I too am doing OTA for local's. That keeps me immune from any cablecard funny business (even though they have worked fine for quite some time now).

With 2 cablecards in my S3 and TWC Apex, I get analog versions of channels under 100. You can verify this several ways... 1) When you record one of these channels, you are offered a 'quality' option and 2) the 'signal strength' function doesnt work on those channels.

When I first installed a cable card on a second set, channels 2-77 were analog. Later they became digital (except channel 72) all by themselves.

What's interesting is that NOW all the TVs in my house are in audio sync, the SA8300 set, the CableCard set, AND interestingly, the analog set. This leads me to believe they're pushing exclusively digital all the way to the node, and unbundling the analog using a technology similar to Terrapix. All good signs that they are migrating the network to the true holy grail - SDV. :D :D :D

I was wondering when you were going to pipe up. I thought I'd remembered that you got an S3 pretty early. The analog channels are hard to watch, but if I'm not gonna get the digital versions with a digital package I'll just drop our digital service. I have an OTA antenna for the HD stuff, so there isn't much we watch on cable anyway. I'll just hold tight and hope that either TWC makes the digital simulcasts available to cable card users or someone comes up with a solution for the SDV conundrum.

I thought you moved to the desert. Don't say I didn't warn you. :D

When I first installed a cable card on a second set, channels 2-77 were analog. Later they became digital (except channel 72) all by themselves.

What's interesting is that NOW all the TVs in my house are in audio sync, the SA8300 set, the CableCard set, AND interestingly, the analog set. This leads me to believe they're pushing exclusively digital all the way to the node, and unbundling the analog using a technology similar to Terrapix. All good signs that they are migrating the network to the true holy grail - SDV. :D :D :D

Interesting... they must like you more than they like me. I just rechecked several channels (under 100) and mine are all analog :(

One thing I would like to understand is how large an area is served by a 'node' and where are the bounderies. One thing I want to do is take my Tivo S3 to a friends house served by a different node and see if my dropout/pixelation problem on cable sourced digital channels persists.

Here are the screen shots of the odd bars in the WTVD signal. It shows up on both network and local programming and via OTA and QAM.

halljb,
nice screen caps. I'm seeing the same thing (its the reason i checked this thread). Its real annoying, but comforting to know others are seeing it too and its not a problem with my setup.

my channel 9 looks fine, but 211 has the lines.

I thought you moved to the desert. Don't say I didn't warn you. :D

Yea, that didn't work out. The wife and house were still here, so I came back. Mostly just to annoy folks in this thread. ;)

Sounds like a bit of a crap shot when it comes to the digital channels below 100 with the cablecards. If someone at TWC could actually tell me something useful I might pay the $43 install fee and get the digital package again. Until then I'll be happy with what I have.

Well my ATSC OTA reception has been pretty good as of late. Not sure what has changed as I have not moved the attic antenna in awhile.

Watched a HD movie on I think it was 28.1 and reception was great.



-DonB2

WTVD never responded to me, but I didn't notice those lines on my ABC recording last night. Is it fixed for everyone?

I've been picking up WTVD lately way down east, and the lines aren't there, so they must have fixed it. It's strange that I can get WRDC and WTVD the best, then FOX 50.1-- I hardly ever lock in on WRAL or WNCN, and never lock CW 22

Well it looks like TWC's navigator has arrived on new DVR boxes in Raleigh. The box is a Sci Atl 8300 HDC and it came pre-loaded with Navigator on it. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. What I'm most concerned about is the ability to connect an eSATA drive to it. I haven't tried that yet, but I do have one connected to a Passport 8300 DVR box. It is slow to respond to button presses. I'll post again after I play with it some more.

WTVD never responded to me, but I didn't notice those lines on my ABC recording last night. Is it fixed for everyone?

I don't see the lines anymore here either. I'll have to keep a watch, but for the moment it seems to be back to normal. I guess they must have found something.

Well it looks like TWC's navigator has arrived on new DVR boxes in Raleigh. The box is a Sci Atl 8300 HDC and it came pre-loaded with Navigator on it. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. What I'm most concerned about is the ability to connect an eSATA drive to it. I haven't tried that yet, but I do have one connected to a Passport 8300 DVR box. It is slow to respond to button presses. I'll post again after I play with it some more.


Indeed they have, I just got mine today when I got my cable set up in my new apartment. They take forever and about 5 tries to initialize when they are first plugged in and it is a little slow to respond, then again the passport boxes weren't incredibly fast themselves. I don't understand why they can't make boxes that immediately respond to button presses, that can't be too hard.

Edit: Hey, stop distracting me, I forgot to post what I came here to ask haha. This is my first experience with HD here and I've noticed while watching seemingly any channel, though I haven't watched much SD today so I don't know if it does it there too, but every so often my screen flickers and the audio goes out for a few seconds. Does anyone know about this? Is this an HDMI connection issue or a TWC issue? I know it's not the LCD because I use this with my computer and my 360 and it works fine. I might call TWC up tomorrow if it keeps doing it. I'm kind of annoyed that they took the boxing for the cable box including the component cables. I hooked it to HDMI that I yanked out of my 360 temporarily because that was easier than hooking up the component cables, but now I want to hook it up with component so I can get both and they took it! Guess I'll have to go buy one.

Well it looks like TWC's navigator has arrived on new DVR boxes in Raleigh. The box is a Sci Atl 8300 HDC and it came pre-loaded with Navigator on it. It's not as bad as I thought it would be. What I'm most concerned about is the ability to connect an eSATA drive to it. I haven't tried that yet, but I do have one connected to a Passport 8300 DVR box. It is slow to respond to button presses. I'll post again after I play with it some more.

Is this going to be pushed down to existing 8300HD boxes, and if so when?

Not every channel can be recorded and pause and rewind live TV. It seems to be random. I changed the channel to MOJO and no time meter appeared at the bottom of the screen. I was unable to record, pause or rewind the channel. I changed it off and back again and it worked. Did it again and it didn't work. VS wouldn't work at all. What crappy software.

I don't see the lines anymore here either. I'll have to keep a watch, but for the moment it seems to be back to normal. I guess they must have found something.

Seems to be back. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Seems to be back. :mad: :mad: :mad:

They sure are. This sucks.

Not every channel can be recorded and pause and rewind live TV. It seems to be random. I changed the channel to MOJO and no time meter appeared at the bottom of the screen. I was unable to record, pause or rewind the channel. I changed it off and back again and it worked. Did it again and it didn't work. VS wouldn't work at all. What crappy software.

Yeah, I saw that with MOJO yesterday too. I thought it was just a no record flag on the station or perhaps the show. Are you sure it's random and sometimes shows work and others don't? I'll test it out more myself as well. Other than MOJO I haven't noticed any other channels yet.

I'm having the same problem on Discovery HD right now watching "Risk Takers", just some basic network show that shouldn't have any protection on it I wouldn't think. Also, as it just changed over to another show, American Chopper, it still won't record, so I don't think it's just the show. I think I'll call up TWC and see if they've been having reports of this happening.

Also, to elaborate on my flicker, I just realized that it seemed like the same flicker you get when the box goes between different output modes. It hasn't happened recently but next time I'll see if it drops the mode or something. Could that be signal related?

Seems to be back. :mad: :mad: :mad:

I just checked my WTVD... and I don't see the lines, but I do see something. It is not the same as before, and not quite as obvious... almost like that quadrant of the screen is being compressed more, and has more pixelizing... I wonder if their "solution" to the lines was to crank up the compression?

I just checked my WTVD... and I don't see the lines, but I do see something. It is not the same as before, and not quite as obvious... almost like that quadrant of the screen is being compressed more, and has more pixelizing... I wonder if their "solution" to the lines was to crank up the compression?

I hadn't really paid much attention to this conversation until now, but I definitely have the lines and they're pretty bad. In the screen cap they looked really faint but they are very noticeable for me.

Both of these seem stuck in as an afterthought at 113.1 and 113.4 respectively, but with no digital info available to identify either the stations or programs. Other HD channel locations such as WUNC and WRAL have that info available.

I like having the digital data since my QAM tuner would then remap 113.1 to 11.1 and 113.4 to 50.1.

Both of these seem stuck in as an afterthought at 113.1 and 113.4 respectively, but with no digital info available to identify either the stations or programs. Other HD channel locations such as WUNC and WRAL have that info available.

I like having the digital data since my QAM tuner would then remap 113.1 to 11.1 and 113.4 to 50.1.

Since both WTVD and WRAZ are 720p rather than 1080i and require less bandwidth, they are being multiplexed together on a single QAM channel (113) and by doing so, TWC is not passing through the original virtual channel mapping as originally transmitted by the station. That's why they don't show up as 11.1/2/3 and 50.1/2/3.

Since both WTVD and WRAZ are 720p rather than 1080i and require less bandwidth, they are being multiplexed together on a single QAM channel (113) and by doing so, TWC is not passing through the original virtual channel mapping as originally transmitted by the station. That's why they don't show up as 11.1/2/3 and 50.1/2/3.Thanks for the info. Sorry to hear TWC is "shorting" its QAM customers. WTVD and WRAZ digital channels were all being remapped to their OTA location designations as recently as two or three months ago. When they suddenly disappeared from my lineup and I rescanned channels, they showed up at their current locations.

Since TWC has a more active history of taking away than of giving, I really don't expect they'll make corrections. :(

Hi, I just got my first HDTV in the Raleigh area and have TWC digital cable. I scanned the channels without a cable box and came up with a lot of digital channels. They appear to be the broadcast stations in HD, but I'm confused about a couple of things.

The TWC website says that you have to have a digital cable box with HD enabled to receive HD programming from them, but I seem to be getting it even without a cable box. How is this possible and am I supposed to be receiving these channels? I ask because I went out and purchased an antenna because I was planning on lowering my cable package down to their basic/standard plan and getting rid of the digital cable box, but when I did the cable channel search it had HD channels. If I lower my plan, will I lose these HD channnels?

Also, I can't seem to find a list of all of the channels and what they are anywhere. For instance, TWC says that ABC HD is channel 211, but I get it on 113-1 at 720p and antennaweb says it's 11.1. Is there a list of all the channels that someone could link me?

The TWC website says that you have to have a digital cable box with HD enabled to receive HD programming from them, but I seem to be getting it even without a cable box. How is this possible and am I supposed to be receiving these channels? I ask because I went out and purchased an antenna because I was planning on lowering my cable package down to their basic/standard plan and getting rid of the digital cable box, but when I did the cable channel search it had HD channels. If I lower my plan, will I lose these HD channnels?Nope! I subscribe to TWC basic only and get all the local HD channels via the QAM tuner in my HDTV. Those channels are carried "in the clear." My understanding is that it has to do with the FCC "Must Carry" ruling.
Also, I can't seem to find a list of all of the channels and what they are anywhere. For instance, TWC says that ABC HD is channel 211, but I get it on 113-1 at 720p and antennaweb says it's 11.1. Is there a list of all the channels that someone could link me?There's a link for Durham in the first message of this thread that's similar to the Raleigh TWC channel setup. You're getting WTVD on channel 113.1 because TWC is not including the digital broadcast signal that would remap it to 11.1. Same for WRAZ. It shows at 113.4 rather than 50.1 as it should.

Hi, I just got my first HDTV in the Raleigh area and have TWC digital cable. I scanned the channels without a cable box and came up with a lot of digital channels. They appear to be the broadcast stations in HD, but I'm confused about a couple of things.

The TWC website says that you have to have a digital cable box with HD enabled to receive HD programming from them, but I seem to be getting it even without a cable box. How is this possible and am I supposed to be receiving these channels? I ask because I went out and purchased an antenna because I was planning on lowering my cable package down to their basic/standard plan and getting rid of the digital cable box, but when I did the cable channel search it had HD channels. If I lower my plan, will I lose these HD channnels?

Also, I can't seem to find a list of all of the channels and what they are anywhere. For instance, TWC says that ABC HD is channel 211, but I get it on 113-1 at 720p and antennaweb says it's 11.1. Is there a list of all the channels that someone could link me?

You can get the network HD channels without a cable box, but Time Warner will not tell you which channel they are on and they may get moved to a different channel assignment occasionally.

Are both 4.1 ATSC and 4 NTSC UHF channels? Are they both located on the same transmit antenna at Chapel Hill?

I find it interesting how good a analog picture I can get for 4 (PBS) but 4.1 ATSC basically requires me to put up a antenna just for 4.1 and I still get weak reception issues.

-DonB2

Are both 4.1 ATSC and 4 NTSC UHF channels? Are they both located on the same transmit antenna at Chapel Hill?
-DonB2

4 is VHF and 4.1 is UHF - both on the same tower.

VHF low doesn't seem to be nearly as directional as UHF - at least using my current antenna setup.

yes - 4.1 is on channel 59. I have to rotate my antennas to get either of them clearly - I can often get Roanoke Rapids (both analog and digtal - 36 analog / 39 digital) as well as 4/59.

"4 is VHF and 4.1 is UHF - both on the same tower.

VHF low doesn't seem to be nearly as directional as UHF - at least using my current antenna setup. "

Interesting, isn't low VHF one of the areas that is being sold eventually?

-DoNb2

With similar equipment and signal levels, VHF will travel farther than UHF. So coming from the same tower, if 4 and 59 are the same signal levels at the tower, people will get channel 4 farther away than channel 59.

Another thing I noticed last night. I think the call letters are WLFL 22

Anyway the analog antenna is off 1010 while the digital antenna is at the Garner farm.

I would have thought they would be at the same location.

-DonB2

Back history when Capital Broadcasting was getting ready to build their new antennas for ATSC - they selected a design that allows at least 6 antennas on it - if you drive east on I-40, you can see the WRAL "candlebra" as the tower that has the "big top". Since "everybody knows" that it is easier if most of the transmitters are at the same location, the Sinclair stations (WRDC and WLFL) put the 28 analog and both of their digital antennas on the WRAL tower as well. WTVD and WNCN have their own towers out there within .5 mile.

Scooper ,

Thanks for the History lesson. BTW- Could you pass this lesson on to 4.1????

:D

-DonB2

10:50 PM 06/26/07 WTVD-11.1 - No Lines

All the digital locals went out just now on TWC digital cable. That includes the SD and HD channels, as well as the special channels like weather, but not the analog stations of the same channels. It happened at exactly 1am and happened to all the channels so I assume TWC is up to something.

Edit: Hmm, weird, they're all acting a bit weird. I was watching Conan when NBC went dead, ABC works most of the time, sometimes with up to a 5-10 second black delay before it starts, others it just doesn't. Who knows what' they're playing with. *shrug*

Edit 2: Actually, I'm seeing it on some other channels too so maybe it isn't just locals. All the analog channels seem to work though. Oh well, it doesn't really matter too much. It's time for me to be asleep anyway.

Not every channel can be recorded and pause and rewind live TV. It seems to be random. I changed the channel to MOJO and no time meter appeared at the bottom of the screen. I was unable to record, pause or rewind the channel. I changed it off and back again and it worked. Did it again and it didn't work. VS wouldn't work at all. What crappy software.

Hey KzY, I just got off the phone with TWC and they claim that this was a software issue and the update should have been pushed out as of today (perhaps the issues I was experiencing last night). So try it out and see if you're still having any trouble and I'll do the same when I get home. If you do have issues I'd try a full system reset (yay 5 minute boot up) then check once more. Hopefully this will fix the recording issues, and he actually said the new software may fix my issues with the signal dropping from 1080i to other modes and back fast enough just to flicker the screen and kill my sound for a few seconds (which my tv does as you change modes).

Has anyone here using Winders Vista 64 found a work-a-round for NBC-17 missing from the Microsoft database? I know a couple have reported this, but I don't know if anyone has found a way to enter us manually, or if an update to their database exists. Any "helpful" suggestions will be appreciated.

What do you mean by the Microsoft database? I don't know what you're talking a bout but I have Vista 64 if you need someone to figure something out for you.

Last time I looked (late last night) WTVD 11.1 OTA looked fine to me. Maybe they fixed it for real this time!

I'm watching WTVD HD right now. No lines.

Whats the deal with FOX50 HD? I can get the two subchannels fine, but the HD channel has been out since at least last night, both on my DVR and via my PC QAM tuner.

Don't know whatcha talking about, Willis - working fine here....

Whats the deal with FOX50 HD? I can get the two subchannels fine, but the HD channel has been out since at least last night, both on my DVR and via my PC QAM tuner.
See Asheville-Greenville experience with Fox here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=322947&page=419&pp=10

Yeah after I posted that I saw it was coming in...but only for about 5 or so minutes, then it froze up...so it comes and goes. Flip away and back again and it will be gray screen...try again and you will get broadcast for a few minutes.

^Not sure what that has to do with FOX50 in Durham...the issues they seem to be having appear to be completely unrelated, considering its a completely different affiliate.

so is anyone getting a new time warner cable box this week with the required cablecard installed?

so is anyone getting a new time warner cable box this week with the required cablecard installed?

As a TW employee, I volunteered to test one of the HD-DVR boxes before they got rolled out to customers. Since it is working just fine, I'm keeping it. No noticeable differences between this one and the 8300 I already had. Supposedly has more memory (not storage) but I can't say that I've noticed it.

As a TW employee, I volunteered to test one of the HD-DVR boxes before they got rolled out to customers. Since it is working just fine, I'm keeping it. No noticeable differences between this one and the 8300 I already had. Supposedly has more memory (not storage) but I can't say that I've noticed it.

Is it a different model? All the cable boxes i've had in the past 3 years have had a card slot on the front panel.

Is it a different model? All the cable boxes i've had in the past 3 years have had a card slot on the front panel.

There is a slot.. but I don't think its a cable-card slot. (on the 8300).

I haven't kept track (on Dish now).. but has the deadline arrived, where cable companies must allow you to buy your own DVR? (ie. not be tied to their one and only offering)

Mike

but has the deadline arrived, where cable companies must allow you to buy your own DVR? (ie. not be tied to their one and only offering)
As of 7/1/07 (yesterday), cable companies are not allowed to deploy a box with integrated security unless that box was deployed at least once before 7/1/07.

Is it a different model? All the cable boxes i've had in the past 3 years have had a card slot on the front panel.

it is now known as the 8300 HD-DVDC.

Make that "SA8300HDC DVR"....the "C" was added to indicate that
it now uses Multi-Stream CableCARD (M-CARD, in rear PCMCIA slot):
http://www.scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf

Hi all, I am moving into my first house and have decided to drop digital cable. I have a HDTV with an integrated QAM tuner, so my question is: If I drop cable TV altogether and just go with RoadRunner, will I still have access to the QAM HDs? Or do I have to at least maintain basic TWC Cable?

I'm sort of a QAM newbie, so any help or advice would be very helpful. I've searched the thread, but haven't really found the info I've requested..

Thanks in advance.

I think you have to maintain basic cable (lifeline). But I'm not a cable sub at this time, so,I'm not the expert.

I currently live in Northern Virginia and will be moving to the Raleigh area (probably Cary or somewhere thereabouts) and have been a D* subscriber for 7 years, and it would take ALOT to convince me to switch cable. I am looking for advice on a HT install company.

My current system includes a 50" plasma (which I think I have to sell with the house :( ), a HD-Tivo (HR10-250) and a SD D* Tivo (with a roof-top OTA antenna), in a kind of "home-made" home-run system with a component switching AV receiver (no HDMI switching) and Universal IR/RF remote control system.

I am hoping to have a similar system installed in the new house, along with a few sets in different rooms.

Can anyone provide recommendations for HT companies to use and/or avoid?

Are the actually rolling out the 8300HDCs to current subscribers to update them? I was under the impression that they didn't have to replace current subscriber boxes, just that all new ones had to be CableCARD.

I got one myself about 2 weeks ago when I moved into my apartment and I can't complain I suppose. As richwoy said, it works just about the same as previous boxes, which granted isn't great, but it does the job I suppose.

I got one the other day also and I must say it did take me a little bit to get used to comming from the regular 8300HD. There was a little delay in the box from when you mad a command at certain times and the dvr was a little different in the way it works.

I did btw notice that the clearity is a little better with the new box. It could be just me but I think it looks a little better, esp. TNTHD which is notorious for horrid quality. I watched the entire race sunday and it was as crisp as espnhd!!

Hi all, I am moving into my first house and have decided to drop digital cable. I have a HDTV with an integrated QAM tuner, so my question is: If I drop cable TV altogether and just go with RoadRunner, will I still have access to the QAM HDs? Or do I have to at least maintain basic TWC Cable?

I'm sort of a QAM newbie, so any help or advice would be very helpful. I've searched the thread, but haven't really found the info I've requested..

Thanks in advance.

yes, you will most likely still be able to watch clear QAM television channels. afaik, they don't physically filter the QAM frequencies since they are shared with the cable modem. the analog channels will be physically filtered, but not the digital. that's the way it worked in the past for me. though there is no guarantee of course.

I am moving to Cary in August and wanted to see if you guys could recommend a service for a first time HD user. All I know for sure that I really want is Discovery HD and I'd like to get whatever channel plays the Canes games when they come back on in HD, other than that, I'm not too informed on the HD channels available. Also, are the bundle packages with Internet any good? It would be for 4 people so I'd like to get around 5MB minimum.

Thanks! :D

I currently only have Road Runner at my house. Yet I get most of 2-25 analog channels when hooking my TV to the cable outlet in my family room. I'm assuming this is what you'd normally get when paying for the $12.95 plan. I purchased a new HDTV which should arrive Monday and I'm assuming I'll enjoy those same channels plus all of the HD channels as well.

Unfortunately I'd already purchased a Channel Master 4228 and spend a few hours fishing 100' of RG6 from my attic to my crawlspace. I could have done without that experience. But I foolishly didn't try plugging in my TV to the cable outlet until happening upon this forum.

Go AVS forum! :)

Has anyone here using Winders Vista 64 found a work-a-round for NBC-17 missing from the Microsoft database? I know a couple have reported this, but I don't know if anyone has found a way to enter us manually, or if an update to their database exists. Any "helpful" suggestions will be appreciated.

17 has been hosed in their database for years. Maybe someone at the station could complain to them :)

I just noticed you mentioned you wanted this for Vista. I don't know if it's the same process, but here is the fix for MCE 2005. If this doesn't work, I'm sure the answer is somewhere on thegreenbutton.com though.

Here is the workaround (from http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/1/116580/ShowThread.aspx):

You will need the physical and major channel numbers. This can be found under www.antennaweb.org.

1. Find the file "atscchannels.xml" using the search tool. This is a hidden file, so you will need to check that option. I found it in C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs

2. Edit the file with Notepad and remove the lines with incorrect physical channel numbers. Save.

3. Start media center and go to settings - guide - Add missing channels.

4. Add the channels back in with the correct physical numbers.

5. Click done to save. You should see the channels in the signal strength screen. Check it to insure good signal.

6. The channels should be in your guide listing and your live TV.


Basically these steps will create a file called atscprefs.xml that overrides atscchannels.xml (where the MS guide populates). All subchannels go into atscprefs, but you can also use it to override bad channel info from MS for the major channels. You can edit the file directly (if it exists already) rather than adding the channel through the UI if you want.

new cablecard page at TW.

http://www.timewarnercable.com/nc/products/cable/cablecard.html


hmm.. there is no longer a mention of the $43 install fee.

Alright, I'm trying to figure out if this a problem with my box (the new 8300HDC with the CableCARD in it), the line to my house, or just all of the area (or even nationwide). If anyone else is watching the baseball All Star game on Fox in HD, is the signal horrible and not working half the time? I can get the analog signal for Fox, and I can get the digital SD signal, but the HD signal just keeps giving me trouble. It seems like I can get it every so often, and it goes out when I flip channels and come back. The box says 480i when Fox broadcasts in 720p for HD, so obviously it's not getting anything at all. I've had trouble tuning local stations on digital before once or twice, I'm not sure if this is common or if I need to get TWC out here to take a look.

Alright, I'm trying to figure out if this a problem with my box (the new 8300HDC with the CableCARD in it), the line to my house, or just all of the area (or even nationwide). If anyone else is watching the baseball All Star game on Fox in HD, is the signal horrible and not working half the time? I can get the analog signal for Fox, and I can get the digital SD signal, but the HD signal just keeps giving me trouble. It seems like I can get it every so often, and it goes out when I flip channels and come back. The box says 480i when Fox broadcasts in 720p for HD, so obviously it's not getting anything at all. I've had trouble tuning local stations on digital before once or twice, I'm not sure if this is common or if I need to get TWC out here to take a look.

Intermittent issues (at least locally). I switched to OTA and it doesn't seem to be as bad, but still has breakups.

Jeff

My OTA signal was losing audio about every 3 seconds.

(credit to SatelliteGuys.com)

7 new channels for Dish HD...

Next up some new NATIONAL HD Channels to announce... (yes I know the press release to which I was hinting too since last night just came came out)

First up is MHD (Requires AT100 and Dish HD package)
Next up is Discover HD (Requires AT100 and Dish HD package)
Next up is Learning Channel HD (Requires AT100 and Dish HD package)
And now announced is Animal Planet HD (Requires AT200 plus DishHD package)
Now is The Science Channel in HD (Requires AT250 and Dish HD package)
Next is GolfHD and VersusHD which will be sharing a channel (it comes this way) (Requires AT250 and Dish HD package)
Next up is History Channel HD Which launches September 1st (Requires AT100 and Dish HD package)

(the Discovery HD channel appears to be an HD mirror of the SD channel.. Dish already has Discovery Theater HD... tho I'm not familiar with the details of how they differ...

Edit: I believe these are due Aug/Sept timeframe)
Mike

"I currently only have Road Runner at my house. Yet I get most of 2-25 analog channels when hooking my TV to the cable outlet in my family room. I'm assuming this is what you'd normally get when paying for the $12.95 plan. I purchased a new HDTV which should arrive Monday and I'm assuming I'll enjoy those same channels plus all of the HD channels as well.

Unfortunately I'd already purchased a Channel Master 4228 and spend a few hours fishing 100' of RG6 from my attic to my crawlspace. I could have done without that experience. But I foolishly didn't try plugging in my TV to the cable outlet until happening upon this forum.

Go AVS forum! "

Things may be different in Rochester but I think here in Raleigh you will only get the HD versions of the Broadcast channels via the $12.95 plan. You will not get the digital version of the rest of the 25 choices. You will just get the analog version at present.

However people do get a few samplings of other HD channels but it is not consistant.

-DonB2

Has anybody else noticed that the program information for WRAZ 50-x is missing? As of last night, my TV just says "DTV Program" for that channel.

Drew

17 has been hosed in their database for years. Maybe someone at the station could complain to them :)

I just noticed you mentioned you wanted this for Vista. I don't know if it's the same process, but here is the fix for MCE 2005. If this doesn't work, I'm sure the answer is somewhere on thegreenbutton.com though.

Here is the workaround (from http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/1/116580/ShowThread.aspx):

You will need the physical and major channel numbers. This can be found under www.antennaweb.org.

1. Find the file "atscchannels.xml" using the search tool. This is a hidden file, so you will need to check that option. I found it in C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Application Data\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs

2. Edit the file with Notepad and remove the lines with incorrect physical channel numbers. Save.

3. Start media center and go to settings - guide - Add missing channels.

4. Add the channels back in with the correct physical numbers.

5. Click done to save. You should see the channels in the signal strength screen. Check it to insure good signal.

6. The channels should be in your guide listing and your live TV.


Basically these steps will create a file called atscprefs.xml that overrides atscchannels.xml (where the MS guide populates). All subchannels go into atscprefs, but you can also use it to override bad channel info from MS for the major channels. You can edit the file directly (if it exists already) rather than adding the channel through the UI if you want.halljb,
In step 1, Vista users can find the "atscchannels.xml" file in:
C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\eHome\EPG\prefs\

I can't verify if the same procedure works on Vista... but at least I was able to locate where the file is for Vista users.

(I found this post from another thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11034368&&#post11034368) here at AVS Forum.)

Thanks,
- Ryan Pertusio

AutumnWave Technical Support
OnAir Solution North America
http://www.autumnwave.com/

Has anybody else noticed that the program information for WRAZ 50-x is missing? As of last night, my TV just says "DTV Program" for that channel.

Drew

via what service?

via what service?

Should have been more clear: There is no program info via PSIP.

Drew

Should have been more clear: There is no program info via PSIP.

Drew

OTA or QAM ?

OTA
I see alot of these also

OTA or QAM ?

OTA.

With the impending demise of the Zap2It guide data for MythTV, I was browsing the OTA channels using my TV's ATSC tuner looking to see how good the EIT/PSIP guide data was. It looks like it sucks. I thought the FCC mandated that the stations provide at least 12 hours of data..

Drew

I have a new VIZIO VU32L LCD TV with ATSC/QAM tuner connected to my cable wall jack ala Time Warner. I get a ton of channels with a variety of duplicated analog/digitals that I'm still weed weeding out but I do get a ton of channels without even plugging in the cable box using the built-in tuner.

However, I'm not pulling the cable guide and noticed a variety of the channels don't have program data. The TV's only been connected 24 hours so maybe it needs to take longer to properly sync with the system? Or maybe it just isn't going to happen? Anyone have any specific experience to share?

I have a new VIZIO VU32L LCD TV with ATSC/QAM tuner connected to my cable wall jack ala Time Warner. I get a ton of channels with a variety of duplicated analog/digitals that I'm still weed weeding out but I do get a ton of channels without even plugging in the cable box using the built-in tuner.

However, I'm not pulling the cable guide and noticed a variety of the channels don't have program data. The TV's only been connected 24 hours so maybe it needs to take longer to properly sync with the system? Or maybe it just isn't going to happen? Anyone have any specific experience to share?

I don't think you'll get any program data for the analog channels ever. For the digital ones, there is no "syncing." The PSIP data is either there or it isn't. What you have is what you're going to get unless something changes at TWC.

I have a new VIZIO VU32L LCD TV with ATSC/QAM tuner connected to my cable wall jack ala Time Warner. I get a ton of channels with a variety of duplicated analog/digitals that I'm still weed weeding out but I do get a ton of channels without even plugging in the cable box using the built-in tuner.

However, I'm not pulling the cable guide and noticed a variety of the channels don't have program data. The TV's only been connected 24 hours so maybe it needs to take longer to properly sync with the system? Or maybe it just isn't going to happen? Anyone have any specific experience to share?

With an antenna, you'll get much more information about each digital station (guide, callletters, program descriptions) , but not with TW cable.

I think I'm probably the farthest poster from Raleigh on here who picks up these channels. I've been getting all the main channels every night except for PBS. I've been getting DT program on FOX 50 also.

WRAL x 2
WTVD x3
WNCN x3
WLFL-CW22 HD
WRDC
WRAZ- x3

jspENC - There is probably a WUNC satellite near your location - they have the state pretty well covered - try getting the one near Greenville / Washington.

I get all my local channels in addition to those I listed I should have said. I get two UNC stations here. WUNJ from Wilmington and WUNM from Jacksonville. (Trenton actually)

I get these channels all the time...
WWAY x2
WITN x2
WFXI
WNCT & CW
WCTI & ENC-TV
WUNM x5
WSFX & The Tube
WPXU x4 Mynetwork/qubo/IONLife/Worship
WUNJx5
I also get WECT most evenings/mornings. Their signal is pointed to the west away from here. People just one county west of me (Duplin) get all these channels from all three markets all the time! Raleigh/Wilmington/Greenville-New Bern-Jacksonville-Morehead City

I am very new at this HD thing so forgive me for the stupid questions. I am recently about to buy a Samsung 37" HDTV 720p. It has all the tuners built in. I plan to just plug it in and get the basic cable package. My question was, is it required to get an antenna or will the reception be any better with an antenna? Also what antenna is the best (and cheapest)? I will be located in UNC like right off franklin street.

Thanks!

My question was, is it required to get an antenna or will the reception be any better with an antenna?You'll be able to get all the local HD channels via your QAM tuner that you would pick up OTA using an antenna unless you plan on getting an antenna strong enough to bring in Triad stations. In any event, the QAM tuner should get PBS, ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, CW and MyTV. Pic quality should be at least as good as with an antenna.

is it true though that OTA HD is better or just as good as HD you would get from a TWC box (which is what my dad has)?

OTA is in most cases better. Some cable companies compress the original signal. I use Directv with an antenna for locals.

And apparently based on my current testing and replies here OTA gives you channel data and guide data which you won't get by plugging your TV's tuner directly into a Time Warner cable. I'm assuming renting a CableCard would correct the guide issue.

And apparently based on my current testing and replies here OTA gives you channel data and guide data which you won't get by plugging your TV's tuner directly into a Time Warner cable. I'm assuming renting a CableCard would correct the guide issue.
One-way CableCARD HDTV & TiVo3 don't support interactive guide found in STB/DVR's.
However, it may improve the "virtual" channel mappings (e.g. "5.1" vice QAM channel.subchannel).

OTA is in most cases better. Some cable companies compress the original signal. I use Directv with an antenna for locals.

But not TWC. They pass the data through unmolested. In terms of picture quality, QAM with TWC is currently just as good as OTA. However, they do strip and mangle the PSIP data enough that my TV doesn't see the EIT guide data, and can't grok the channel remappings. In general, the EIT guide data you get from ATSC OTA broadcasts is flaky enough as to be useless. It can go for days with no data at all from some channels.

It would be great if somebody could figure out how to decode the guide data used by the TWC set-top boxes. I heard rumors that somebody (perhaps the makers of the HD Homerun) was trying to reverse engineer enough of the "open" cable standards to be able to use the guide data...

Drew