I know, I know...We have many active threads about the area, but I just figured it would be nice to start a monthly thread. Anyways, here are a few things I think are worth additional input/discussion:

1. Status of local OTA live dates

2. Cox Cable and HD

3. Recent addition of local channels to the directv line-up

4. Antenna reception in different parts of the valley

5. Amount of Las Vegas AVSForum HDTV Members?

So, anyways, here goes nothing....

Trevor_2k

I saw that Cox picked up Discovery HD. I hope we get to see that when it rolls out next month.

I normally don't even attempt to watch ch 13 just because it bothers me so much that a station would think that a zoomed analog image made to fill the screen (almost) would be satisfactory.
Monday night, while one of my favorite movies of all time is playing in HD everywhere else in the country, I decided to give 13 a try. 13-1 is an analog 14:9 zoomed image but they got the sound okay. 13-2 was full screen 16:9 but it was a stretched analog image as well without the DD audio. Well, at least it was the first time I saw a picture on 13-2, but it still irked me that I can't enjoy the wonderful (although sporadic) programming that abc offers in HD. When are they going to get it together???

Trevor_2k

When I watch 13.2 it isn't zoomed. It's just a 4:3. I haven't checked recently but most of the time I don't get a picture on 13.1. I just get sound. The only time I got a picture was the first day they were on the air. After that just the sound. Channel 13 said it would be a couple of months before they are able to send out an HD signal. They must be missing a piece of equipment.

I also get only sound on 13.1. Only one of three of my sat receivers can pick up the local channels so I passed on it.

I get ABC on 12-5, and 12-6 on my TV. Is that normal, and when are they supposed to start broadcasting shows in HD.

So in Vegas OTA we have ABC (12), PBS (11), and CBS (7)... is that it for now? The TitanTV schedule includes a line for channel 40, KBLR-DT, a Spanish station. Is it on the air?

Most of the HDTV schedules don't mention it, but at 8 pm today (Sunday), there should be a HDTV broadcast of Nature on PBS.

ABC works fine for me, such as it is. I get a horizontally stretched picture on 12-1, and a 4:3 picture on 12-2, with sound on all subchannels though louder on 12-2. I use an accessDTV card in my PC. There is never any real HD on ABC Vegas, right?

Ok, from another Vegas person thinking about D* v. Cox Cable.

I heard a rumor that on a News report on Channel 13, Cox Cable was testing their HDTV box in Vegas. Any word on when Cox will switch to HDTV? Or would it be worthwhile to buy D* for a year and then decide whether or not to switch back to Cox.

Thanks,

Tim

Last night there was a commericial for cox digtial cable. They interposed a local message across the bottom that said HDTV Coming Soon. This is the first confirmation that I have seen for HDTV for Vegas. Someone said either July or August.

Cox HDTV is tentatively scheduled for an early July offering according to all the whispers and rumors.

Trevor_2k

On the HD FAQ page on their website, Cox says:

Cox will offer your local programming. Cox plans to offer the high-definition signals of your local network broadcasters such as NBC, CBS, ABC, etc. Satellite providers send one set of signals to all of their customers across the nation. This is a drawback because they can only carry so many signals due to bandwidth limitations. In order to watch local network affiliates like NBC, CBS, ABC, Fox, etc., some satellite customers may have to switch from their dish to an antenna, or otherwise watch the network broadcasts from a different region.

Cox could have said that more forcefully, like so:

Even if it's impossible for you to receive local stations over the air in your location, such as in the shadow of Black Mountain, your friendly local Vegas stations will deny your petitions for waivers, so you will NOT be able to receive the single national feeds, whether SD or HD, from your satellite company. MOOHOOOHOOOOHOOHOHAHAHAHA. Those who cannot receive some or all of the broadcast networks over the air must buy their service from Cox (or black market Canadian satellite) or go without those channels.

The Cox box will output 1080i. You can't even record the local HD stations (using PC cards like HiPix now or HD PVR's in the future) without being able to get 8vsb. Do you think there's any chance a 8vsb line will be left exposed inside the box?

Does anyone have any idea what type of box Cox will use?

I Just got a response to my email to Cox:

Thank you for contacting us. HDTV will be available on selected channels on July 1, 2002. The HDTV converter will be an enhanced version of the digital converter and will cost $10 monthly to rent. We have not been informed of a waiting list. From what we know the service will be available to all interested. If you have any other questions, feel free to contact customer service at 702.383.4000. Thank you for your time.

Does anyone know what channels and what the minumim subscription is. I don't want to have to get digital cable to get the HD channels. I just want the HD channels.

Hmmm, it occurs to me that someone could get into HDTV for the first time with a very minimal investment using Cox, which is what they claimed. A 21" CRT computer monitor ($550), a component to RGB converter ($100ish), and a Cox HD subscription would be all that's necessary for the video, and then for sound maybe a home-theater-in-a-box ($600ish.)

Yeah, it appears that the cable route will be cheaper upfront as you do not have the purchase the STB. Even if Cox charges $10 a month rental for the box you would have to have the box for 4 years or so before it will begin to look silly. Also, if there are any upgrades or such, you can just get a new box from Cox. Particularly, if they are going to be using the Explorer 8000 with HD!

I called cox today and they told me that they are not ready to start HD programing and to check back when they have more information on July 15th.

ok everyone, its official, cox is now offering HD in vegas. Heres the deal. if you already subscribe to digital cable with the movie channels then they will swap out one of your digital boxes for $50 for the install and you do not have to pay any additional monthly charges. however, if you want discovery HD channels then it is an extra $5 a month. now if you dont have digital, i believe to get the HD box it will be an extra $10 a month along with the $50 install charge. im kinda upset by the fact that its a $50 charge just to swap out my current digital box for the new HD box. they stated that its a technical install that will take over an hour to get set-up. i thought all that would need to be done is just pluging in the component cables and youre off. well see what happens. im getting my install done on monday.

Did they tell you what kind of box they will be providing?

Did you ask them about other HD channels in the future? ie. HD Net.

Let me know how it goes!

Good Luck,

Tim

I was fiddling around with the normal digital cable today and I noticed that they have HD channels listed in the guide in the 700 range. I saw HD Discovery, PBS, CBS, HBO (East and West) and Showtime (East and West). I didn't see ABC or NBC listed....hmmm

Originally posted by Tallen234
Did they tell you what kind of box they will be providing?

Did you ask them about other HD channels in the future? ie. HD Net.

Let me know how it goes!

Good Luck,

Tim

Scientific Atlanta 2100HD is the model...

Don't know anything about 'em.

Trevor_2k

Uh-0h. That is the old HD receiver from SA. When they install, ask them if they have the 3100.

We're close to getting Cox HD down here in SoCal too. I've been told that the box they're using is the 3100. It's also mentioned on the Cox website here: http://www.cox.com/Future/hookup.asp

Hey Vegas Folks, thanks for the info about OTA in your city. Am coming there for a small geek convention in August and was thinking about showing my colleagues HiDef - if I packed up my PC (which I could use for my presentations anyway) and also brought my LT150, I'd be able to setup just about anywhere. Will be in the Orleans (and some banquet rooms) for our meetings - I guess the Cox stuff is out, but I'd bring along the trusty RS DBT and hopefully can tune in the OTA stuff just fine.

Does anyone there have a D-VHS they could bring over to watch a World Cup match? I should have a match available and in-hand by then.

I have a JVC HM-HD-30000U HD D-VHS VCR with a D-Theater tape (X-Men, with T2 and U-571 on the way.) I also have a HTPC with HDTV card (and firewire card), but I would be less willing to bring it since I would probably miss some scheduled recordings.

Whats with channel 13 these days? I have tried to watch some content but I can't get a proper signal at all. Before I could get their analog signals on 13-1 and 13-2, now nothing. Channel 8 is broadcast from the same spot and I can pick them up fine...Anybody have any ideas?

Trevor_2k

Hi Abdul - thanks for the reply.
I haven't heard back on the WorldCup tape yet.
I'm sure I'll bring my machine since I need a pc for the meetings anyway.
... And my LT150.
Will let you know soon.
thx

Originally posted by trevor_2k
Whats with channel 13 these days? I have tried to watch some content but I can't get a proper signal at all. Before I could get their analog signals on 13-1 and 13-2, now nothing.

I have the same problem on my Dish 6000. Signal strengh is around 90, but the picture keeps breaking up. I get CBS and PBS fine. The strong winds a few months ago moved my outdoor antenna a little, so maybe repointing it will help, but until KTNV starts broadcasting real HDTV, it's not worth getting the ladder out.

-Jonathan

The sound goes out every few seconds for me on ABC-DT, but I'm not sure if it's my new HDTV PC card (MyHD) or ABC.

Hey Abdul, I should be getting 2 DVHS tapes of World Cup Soccer. Am getting the 3rd place match (which I didn't see) and some other exciting match - haven't decided yet which one.

Put on your calendar August 19 or 20 - will be at the orleans - we have a meeting room thats in use each day for our meetings - so there's already a screen (not sure of size) and I'll have my LT150 - if you bring the tape deck we'll be all set.

I don't know if you Vegas people have planned any "meetings", but any local Vegas HDTV folk are welcome to come see how cool the World Cup looked. Of course if anyone else has a better projector than a LT150 (like a cool 16x9 format), then thats even better - maybe you guys could plan a HDTV get together and we'll have a good old time!

I'll have my HTPC with HiPix card and projector.
With an assortment of HDTV Demo material online.
Will definitely plan a scheduled viewing of one of the football matches, and then we can mess around after that.
Might be a nice time to have a projector shootout if you guys want.

ideas?

So how many of use Las Vegans have cox digital HD cable? I am waiting until August to get mine (or possibly Direct TV). Just wanted to know those who have taken the plunge and how they are liking it?

Thanks,

Tim

Just got mine hooked up today. I had DTV but I went for cox because of the local chanels not needing an attena and Discovery HD. I'm happy with it so far. Discovery HD seems pretty cool.

I have created a webpage devoted to HD in Las Vegas. It can be found
here (http://www.lvthunder.com/hdtv)

There is also another article here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=159387&highlight=vegas) that is an FAQ about Cox in HD in Las Vegas. It sounds to me the author of that message works for Cox.

Just got COX HDTV, with the SA 3100HD. Picture looks great. HD channels anyway...

I've got a question for my fellow Vegas HDTV Coxer's... do the HDTV HBOs and Showtimes ALWAYS run odd music tracks on the digital output, or do they occasionally do DD5.1?

The "lower" HBO channels, occasionally do DD5.1, so I understand that not every HBO movie has the DD feed. But I would'da thought that an HDTV presented movie would always have a DD5.1 soundtrack...

I am getting my cox HDTV on Monday (after getting my Panasonic 53wx42 today!).

Does anyone know when ABC (channel 13) will finally switch to HDTV? I know they have been playing around for a while. Also, how about the other channels?

Thanks,

Tim

Ok, I am really curious as to when Cox will offer ABC (Channel 13) in HD? With the fall season rapidly approaching, I would like to be able to see Alias and The Practice in HDTV.

Any inside word as to when Cox will be offering more HD Channels?????


Thanks,

Tim

Las Vegas now has KINC 16-1, digital Spanish station. No sign of NBC or the others?

Has anyone heard when NBC is going live? Will they be doing HD or are they going to be like ABC? Titantv says they will turn the digital channel on this Friday.

Bump. Any word on NBC or ABC?

I emailed ABC about the HD100 not being able to see a picture on 13.1. I got an email back saying this. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=171361

has anyone else been having problems with CBS HDTV. lately, ive been watching some programs and the sound and picture or not matched up. also, tonight, monday sep. 16, CSI is not in HD. anyone else experiencing the same thing?????????

riyatch, yep, the sound was out of sync for Thursday night CSI and Saturday's HD football game. If anyone talks to the folks at Vegas CBS, tell them that they are playing the sound for the local commercials with the video for national commercials, and also that the sound is out of sync for the programs. Both problems are probably caused by the same malfunction. I suspect they know of the problems, because they pulled the plug on the HD for all of Monday night and gave us all upscaled SD instead.

We are suddenly down to 0.01 HD stations in Vegas. PBS-HD is the only one left, and it plays the demo loop or dead air 99% of the time. By the way, what's the best way to find out when our local PBS is going to air a HD program?

thanks for the reply, i was alittle concerned that it was my the tuner in my tv. it sure would be nice of some of the other stations would start broadcasting in HD before the start of the new season. i guess its not gonna happen though.

Ok, this is getting tedious. I have sent a few emails to cox to inquire as to ABC and NBC HDTV with no response. Does anyone have any "connections" to get a reasonable response (or any response!) to Cox's future plans?

When the local ABC and NBC go HD, sometime around the year 2278, I'm sure Cox will carry them. Cox cannot give you a national ABC/NBC HD feed, since the local stations would not allow them.

Hurray, CBS-HD returned to HD for Tuesday night. The sound sync is improved, but it's still not perfect.

Well I heard some bad news from the local NBC folks. They won't be doing HD until Spring of 2003. I found out by emailing Kfridmann@kvbc.com. She said if I have any more questions to email her.

Super....

Given NBC's poor HD lineup, that is not that big of a loss. What about ABC? Any word from them?

I was taliking to ABC last week about my Sony HD100 not being able to see a picture on 13.1. I also asked him when they would be passing the HD signals. He wrote me back saying that I should take the Sony back to the store because it has problems with 720P, but he didn't say anything about when they will be passing the HD. So who all here thinks that The Good Guys are going to trade me the HD100 for the HD200.

As just announced, the Superbowl will be in HD on ABC, but not on KTNV unless they go HD before then. I think we need to start applying pressure to KTNV now. I suggest emailing or calling one person per day from the list at http://www.yourinsidelasvegas.com/contactus/

I emailed them yesterday. However, given the news about the Superbowl they NEED to get their act together by January.

Hopefully, with ESPN going HD, there will be more competition with HDNET so Cox will carry one or both of them.....

I was just flipping channels today and noticed that KTNV (ABC) fixed channel 13.1 so it works with my Sony HD100 now. Maybe they got the rest of the equipment they needed to pass the HD. I will try to find out when the next HD show is and find out. I'm also going to send Ron an email and thank him for fixing the problem on Monday if it still is working.

Hey LVThunder, if you have a good relationship with Ron (he hasn't responded to my emails) can you ask him if he knows when ABC will be broadcast through Cox HD? thx.

"Cox E-care" is a load of BS. These guys are very poor at returning e-mails. Anyone at cox reading this needs to clean this up. This is good reason to go to a dish.

He only replied to me when I was asking about the Sony. When I asked about when they will be starting to pass the network 720p signal he either ignores that email or just doesn't answer the question. I'll ask again when I send him that thank you email. As for Cox they will probibly wait until ABC is passing the HD.

I love the warm fuzzy informative email responses from cox:

>>>>>>
Thank you for contacting Cox Communications. Cox is committed to
providing the best Customer service possible.

Cox Communications does have plans to add more channels to our HDTV
channel line-up. Unfortunately, at this time, we do not know exactly
which programs will be added. If you have any further questions, please
contact us at (702) 383-4000 or correspond through email.

KVBC has been trying to get our ATSC signal on the air for the past several months. Unfortunately, vendor difficulties have postponed our debut date several times. Not only are you upset, as viewers, but local radio stations are livid, as our workers on the tower on Black Mountain require that the FM stations reduce their power to only a fraction of normal.

Our engineering department is top-notch and we should be on the air with a digital signal in the next 30 days, if current timetables don't slip.

Paul Heine
Research Director
KVBC-TV
Las Vegas

Originally posted by NBC SHIVA in LV
KVBC has been trying to get our ATSC signal on the air for the past several months. Unfortunately, vendor difficulties have postponed our debut date several times. Not only are you upset, as viewers, but local radio stations are livid, as our workers on the tower on Black Mountain require that the FM stations reduce their power to only a fraction of normal.

Our engineering department is top-notch and we should be on the air with a digital signal in the next 30 days, if current timetables don't slip.

Paul Heine
Research Director
KVBC-TV
Las Vegas

That's great news. I have a question. You say a digital signal in the next 30 days. Will that you be passing the HD feed.

Thanks,

My understanding is that our first effort is to get an ATSC signal over the air and our work on Black Mountain completed ASAP.

HD programming, either generated or passed through, will come later. I'm not privy to the timetable. Incredible expenses take time.

NBC Shiva, thanks for the info! Once you go HD, you might look into hiring a monkey to throw the switch. This is something that KLAS CBS overlooked and it shows. Rarely do they get through a whole show without dropping to upscaled SD (lately, anyway.)

I can't pull in analog KVBC NBC well (nor FOX-5.) Is this because your signal strength is reduced at present, or do I need to start looking for a better antenna? (I'm already using a big ugly Radio Shack antenna with a 12 foot wing span or so.)

By the way, if KVBC still has any choice in the matter, you/they should look to have the digital channel number changed. Channel 2 has reception problems that you know more about than I, and the Feds plan to shut down the low channel numbers (2-6?) in a few years, so KVBC will get booted off Channel 2 and 3 eventually anyway.

I can't speak for KVVU. KVBC is currently running at reduced power, and will do so for as short a period as possible. We can't fry the engineers who are working on the towers and multiple antennas needed not only for broadcast transmission, but for studio-transmitter links.

The FCC makes channel assignments. As holder of the license for analog channel 3, we are the most subject to multi-path distortion of any broadcast station in the valley. Add to that, Cox and most VCR's use channel 3 to output their signal, which frequently trashes our signal at the viewer's antenna input. Our pending ATSC transmission on channel 2 has Cox concerned about older converter boxes near Black Mountain.. seems they fear the signal wil fry the ancient circuits. We are working with all of these concerns as best we can.

As you know, in Las Vegas you play the cards you are dealt, or you fold. We choose to play.

If you wish to get a better signal for recording purposes, you might find a value in Cox basic cable. It's under $10 a month. We deliver a fiber optic feed out of our control room to Cox, so they get just as good a signal as the one we send to our transmitter.

I use Cox's digital cable for my home system, and that converter box gives me a reasonably clean SVideo feed. Other viewers I speak with in my duties at KVBC tell me that they are pleased with KVBC's signal via DirecTV. As you know, most DSS boxes offer SVideo or better.

DISH doesn't carry Las Vegas stations yet. They've been saying "coming soon" since 1998, and their latest promise http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2002/Aug-09-Fri-2002/business/19365120.html claims they will do so in a matter of weeks. However, the FCC rejection of the DISH/DirecTV merger may be blamed for a delay.

It is in our business interest to have the cleanest, clearest signal in as many homes in Clark, Lincoln, and Nye counties in Nevada as possible. Home theatre fans have an advocate at KVBC-TV. Can you say the same for the other broadcasters in Las Vegas?

Hey NBC Shiva, any chance that you will run HDTV through your fiber optic feed to Cox (even before getting the OTA done)? I am currently enjoying CBS HD offerings through Cox and can't wait for the other stations to jump on board.

Hmm....I guess not.

Bump. Bump. Bump.

Anything new on the Vegas HDTV front? Is Cox now fat and happy?

Tallen,

I started Cox service here in Vegas (actually Henderson) last Saturday, and, so far, I'm very pleased with the service.

Can someone confirm or deny if other local stations will be adding HD to their broadcasts next month? It seems I read this somewhere, but I'm not sure if this is true...

Well I got an email from FOX that said they will be testing in the middle of November (I don't remember the exact month). I haven't heard anything new from ABC or NBC or WB.

I now am getting 2 new digital channels.

22.1 is WB and
29.1 is analog channel 33.
Neither seem to be in HD though.

Thanks for the update. Right now I am only hoping for ABC to get HD before the Superbowl..

Me too. I also hope NBC goes digital soon.

are you guys getting the new channels all the time ota or is it just during certain times of the day? im not getting anything on those channels yet. ive played with the antenna and still nothing.

I think the new channels are on all the time. I did get an email from them saying that they are running on low power.

still not getting 22 and 29 but now im getting channel 5? fox. its not in HD though, just like abc.

I got these pieces of info via email from Jack Smith at kvvu (FOX):

"Our target for digital transmission testing is Nov. 10th.The 15th for programming..."

"Our digital channel will not be on COX at this time. Programming will be the same."

Anyone know anything about any other locals slated to be carried by Cox in HD?

Does anyone know if Fox will be passing the digital feed (Fox Widescreen) or if they are passing the analog stuff like ABC, WB, and 33.

I am not certain, but I think that they will be passing the Fox "High Resolution Widescreen" signal. I don't have anything to back up that statement though.

I'm now getting channel 732 ABCHD. Don't know when they started sending their signal. Looks like we'll get the Super Bowl in High Def.

Nov 15th was the day to add new channels to the lineup and move around some of the channels and frequencies to prepare for more service launches. Some of the biggests moves were the Game Show Network to digital (which was STOPPED because of customer feedback) and the addition of new HD channels. ABCHD was launched on channel 732, and NBCHD was SUPPOSED to be launched, but was not ready at the last minute. COX was ready to do a digital box swapout for Henderson customers with old analog boxes that output on ch 2 to the new digital boxes with different outputs. For some reason though, the NBC feed was not ready the day of the launch, but will be available on COX as soon as it is ready.
Here is the current working lineup again:
700 Discovery HD
710 HBOWHD
711 HBOEHD
720 SHOWHD
721 SHOEHD
730 CBSHD
731 PBSHD
732 ABCHD

Cox doesn't do any conversion to digital. All digital signals are transmitted from the source and retransmitted on their system as 256QAM. If a local station doesn't broadcast in HD, the feed to COX will also not be in HD. Part of the channel lineup was to clear the frequencies needed to broadcast more HD channels and interactive services.

Good news? New testing of VOD (Video On Demand) services has started (ch 998), with a-la-cart programming available like PPV purchases at any time of the day. I don't think this will cover HD, due to the bandwidth and storage needed, but there is always hope.

sorry for not posting in a long time
I'll keep trying to get the "inside scoop" for COX HD in LV
Vegggas

KVBC is waiting for ONE remaining part before we fire up ATSC channel 2. We are estimating this will be done by Thanksgiving. For the forseeable future, only standard definition signals will be broadcast or provided to Cox.

Thanks for your patience.

Paul Heine
Research Director
KVBC-TV

That is unfortunate. I greatly prefer to get my HD via cable, it is much less hassle than when we got HD OTA. Now that we got rid of our OTA HD tuner, both NBC and FOX are going to be broadcasting digital but not providing that signal to Cox. :(

Paul,

That is unfortunate. I subscribed to Cox hoping to get all of the locals in HD sooner rather than later. Is there anything we can do aid in the transition? Is it a Cox problem?

THanks,

TIm

As mentioned earlier by Paul, KVBC will not be broadcasting in Hi Def, just Standard Def. Those same signals will be delivered to COX for retransmission on their system on channel 733. This is listed as a Hi Def channel and is capable of the bandwidth needed for HD resolution but only transmits what is given to COX by the station - In this case, a Standard Def signal. Those with OTA should be able to find the digital feeds currently out there and see that not everything that is digital is Hi Def.
The FCC mandates that stations have to go DIGITAL, but doesn't say they have to go Hi Def. When KVBC has more material available, they may begin transmitting those signals so that local viewers can see the programming, but the expense of the equipment is still quite high.
Currently the SA3100HD is the only box available in Las Vegas for decoding 256QAM HD signals, but the output is locked at 1080i. Consider that CBS transmits SD signals most of the time outside of the primetime lineup and I think that we will see a comparative signal with KVBC when they go live, just no HD lineup. At least they are not going the route of ABC with 720P. It just looks like they just zoom on the picture to achieve an acceptable resolution for retransmitting. Although it is 720P, which natively should be good, most of it was "upconverted" from SD, then downconverted back down to 1080i.

I just mentioned that the SA3100HD box was the only box available for now. As with other markets, Vegas will be letting the customer buy their own box in the future, just like the cable modems. Current customers should be grandfathered in with the lease (and option to buy). The industry is leaning towards the electronics retailer (Best Buy, Circuit City, etc.) to make bulk national purchases from the manufacturer to provide savings to the customers. Current SA3100HD box prices to COX are actually about the same as for individual customers - at about the $500 mark. Hopefully a national sales purchase and competition will drive down prices and we will all win in the long run.
But I digress... This could turn into its own thread.

Vegggas

Any one have problem getting a true HD on Cox cable ABC-HD? Pic looks like zoom all the time. Ch.732 all the rest are fine .

---What do the OTA guys get at 1080i and/or 720p?---

I'm thinking that the signal is being converted at the STB to 1080i like all other channels.
Here is one possibility: Original 720p signal comes down the line and the STB takes the progressive signal and interlaces it, essentially making it 1440i. The STB output is fixed at 1080i, so the overlapping signal is "cropped" above and below the STB's range, so we we se a "zoomed" picture.

True 720P looks awesome if it's filmed and distributed in that resolution. The conversion to 1080i reduces the original amount of data, so there is a some loss.

Tomorrow I will see if I can email the head engineer at the COX MTC for a better explanation.

vegggas

That would be great if we can buy the box. I just want Cox to make a package so it doesn't cost $60 to get 5 or 6 HD channels. I don't need the other hundred channels. I get those via Directv and I have a one-year commitment so I can't switch. I also live too close to Black Mountain that another part of the mountain gets in the way. Anyways does anyone know any antenna installer that knows what it takes to get HD signals.

Just got my HD setup going with a Hughes receiver for Directv and and an outside antenna for local digital. I am setup near Flamingo and Eastern and the digital signals are very good except for Ch 13, which is a disaster. I talked to an engineer at 13 and he told me the signal was going out strong? It sure isn't HD!! Channel 10 signal is outstanding. Now if they would only starting broadcasting some HD. At least to keep my wife from reminding me that the cost is hardly worth it!! Benspal

As far as I know channel 13 isn't broacasting HD yet. They are just broadcasting an upconverted image. Channel 8 is in HD. Channel 10 is too last time I looked. Channels 5, 33, and 21 are broadcasting an upconvert too. The only true HD stations OTA (over the air) here is 8 and 10.

Anyword as to when Channel 13 will broadcast HD? It better be before the superbowl!!!

I've asked several times but I've never gotten an answer.

Due to a vendor's delay, KVBC's ATSC transmitter won't be able to go on the air for a number of days. The FCC has granted an extension till mid-December, but we will not hesitate to fire up the transmitter as soon as we are able.

Again, for the forseeable future, our signal will be in standard definition.

Thank you for the update and the clarification that the signal will be Standard Definition. Cox will still carry it on their system as a High Def channel (733), but like most of the other local stations there will only be standard def material available (i.e. 480p).

Vegggas

Can anyone tell me when and where Ch 5's digital signal is located? I notice they are using "dt" with their ID. Thanks.

OTA it should be 5.1. They aren't passing the FOX Widescreen yet though. Your probibly have to do a channel re-scan to get it.

No, digital Fox is not actually on 5, though your receiver may say that. It's on 9. Here is the complete digital line-up for Vegas at present:

7 - KLAS-DT (CBS, true 1080i HD)
9 - KVVU-DT (FOX, digital)
11 - KLVX-DT (PBS, true 1080i HD)
12 - KTNV-DT (ABC, upscaled 480i->720p)
16 - KINC-DT (UNI, digital, spanish)
22 - KVWB-DT (WB, digital)
29 - KFBT-DT (IND/WB, digital)

I have not seen anything on 22 and 29, personally.

Be on the lookout for:

2 - KVBC-DT (NBC, upscaled 480i->1080i)
40 - KBLR-DT (Telemundo, digital spanish)

40 may already exist, as I don't receive its corresponding analog 39 well.

Does anyone know where the CBS and ABC antenna is. I live extremly close to Black Mountain and can't get those. I'm really bummed about this.

Their antenna is located on a hill south of Anthem, and thats why you can't see them. I used to live over at gibson and american pacific and had a hard time getting them to tune in with an indoor double bow tie antenna.
http://www.parkerjackets.com/downloads/MapImageForGibson&AmPac.JPG
This is a map image from titantv's antenna selector for my old house (american pacific and gibson).

Originally posted by Abdul Jalib
Here is the complete digital line-up for Vegas at present:

7 - KLAS-DT (CBS, true 1080i HD)
9 - KVVU-DT (FOX, digital)
11 - KLVX-DT (PBS, true 1080i HD)
12 - KTNV-DT (ABC, upscaled 480i->720p)
16 - KINC-DT (UNI, digital, spanish)
22 - KVWB-DT (WB, digital)
29 - KFBT-DT (IND/WB, digital)

I have not seen anything on 22 and 29, personally.

Be on the lookout for:
2 - KVBC-DT (NBC, upscaled 480i->1080i)
40 - KBLR-DT (Telemundo, digital spanish)


Everything I heard about NBC in Vegas is that it's going to be digital 480p. They have no plans to broadcast HD in the forseeable future until there is more programming available.

vegggas

HD sucks in vegas. im sooo disappointed because the only real channel we get here in vegas is cbs. the other stations either have a very weak signal or just are not sending a digital signal and thats what pisses me off. i hate seeing shows say that they are broadcasting in HD, but we cant get it, even though we've spend thousands of dollars to promote this new technology. its bs and im getting sick of it. cbs has my full support and i watch their shows just to support them since they have supported our decisions to get an HDTV.
sorry, just needed to vent.

HD sucks in vegas. im sooo disappointed because the only real channel we get here in vegas is cbs. the other stations either have a very weak signal or just are not sending a digital signal and thats what pisses me off. i hate seeing shows say that they are broadcasting in HD, but we cant get it, even though we've spend thousands of dollars to promote this new technology. its bs and im getting sick of it. cbs has my full support and i watch their shows just to support them since they have supported our decisions to get an HDTV.
sorry, just needed to vent.

I'm disappointed too, but I can understand the stations that are going to pass the HD but don't have all of the equipment to do it. I'm just mad at the staions that have no plans on doing HD at all like the WB. I know ABC and NBC is trying to get the equipment. I just hope ABC gets it by the super bowl and I can find a way to get an antenna that will pick it up.

HD sucks in vegas.Agreed. I think we need to start an "HDTV Proliferation Army." We could hold weekly protests outside Vegas ABC headquarters for the first objective of getting the superbowl in HD here. NBC may need a push too.

Everything I heard about NBC in Vegas is that it's going to be digital 480p. They have no plans to broadcast HD in the forseeable future until there is more programming available.There has been nothing said here (before you) to indicate that NBC will be 480p. My money is on what I said: 480i upscaled to 1080i. And then after more equipment (not programming) they will upgrade so that you get some shows in real HD, not upscaled.

Originally posted by Abdul Jalib
There has been nothing said here (before you) to indicate that NBC will be 480p. My money is on what I said: 480i upscaled to 1080i. And then after more equipment (not programming) they will upgrade so that you get some shows in real HD, not upscaled.
Originally posted by NBC SHIVA in LV
Again, for the forseeable future, our signal will be in standard definition. Also, through offline questions to KVBC, it was asked
"Does this mean, when you do go digital, you will be sending out a 4x3 format, 480 line picture, with no upsampling or HD content? " The answer was "Yes" and basically to appease the FCC by going digital.

It was only asked if it will be a 480 line picture, and it was assumed to be 480P, since it is a digital signal.
This is all of the info that I have at this time, but maybe NBC SHIVA in LV will shed further light on this subject.

vegggas

If you have a Hughes E86 and pass the OTA signals thru the receiver the digital channels have the same number as the regular channels followed by a "-1". For instance PBS is "10-1". Now all we need is more HD programming!!!

I hope that Cox may help put some pressure on the local stations as Cox is marketing their HD service. ABC is listed as one of Cox's HD stations.

Originally posted by Tallen234
I hope that Cox may help put some pressure on the local stations as Cox is marketing their HD service. ABC is listed as one of Cox's HD stations.

Cox, or any other cable company, is not allowed to push stations into doing anything (It's more like the other way around). They are bound to retransmit (in it's original format) only what the station provides as an OTA source. As far as listing the locals as HD, those are HD CAPABLE digital channels that have enough guaranteed bandwidth to provide any HD signal provided by the station. The original thought was that all the major networks were going to follow CBS and provide HD signals, but each station has decided to do their own thing for their own reasons/problems. When they DO transmit in HD, it passes through without any modification (other than 8VSB to 256QAM of the carrier only) at the cable co end.

vegggas

I think we should force Cox to give a price plan for HD that is more like analog OTA stations. I shouldn't have to pay Cox $60 a month just because I want ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX in there digital format. I have Directv for all of the other channels. I just live behind Black Mountain so I can't get CBS or ABC at all. I think that Basic Cable and a cable box is all I should need to get OTA HD from Cox.

I think a better solution would be to allow the local digital channels to be "Not Secure" status and not have any coding scheme in place. That way anyone with a digital cable subscription could use their own 256QAM HD tuner to pull in those frequencies. Currently they are setup as a "Subscription" package that requires at least one subscription HD channel to get the package.
The current 3 local digital channels are as follows:
CBS CH 730 256QAM @ 699Mhz
PBS CH 731 256QAM @ 669Mhz
ABC CH 732 256QAM @ 663Mhz

Anyone with a 256QAM tuner should try to tune into a nonsecure or free to air channel such as:
PPV info CH 199 64QAM @ 747Mhz
or any other channel that can be tuned in that mode - Not sure if any can actually be tuned or not, but I did see a flag that said not secure on my cable box a few times in the past (and actually scanning through several hundred channels to find them in data mode would take an hour or so...)

Hopefully over the next few months as more QAM tuners are sold to consumers in TV's and STB's, the cable industry will agree to non subscription packages that allow OTA signals over a cable pay service for a nominal fee (um... like basic cable, but at the more expensive equipment cost to deliver at around 700Mhz)). The downside is that once you go this route, you would have to purchase your own HD tuner. Also you have to certify your own home wiring and parts to be up to par with >750Mhz 256QAM signals.

Vegggas

It wouldn't take me long to recoup the price of a STB. I would prefer to buy it anyways. My parents have been renting a cable modem from Cox for at least four years. That's $480 and they still don't own it. I prefer an upfront cost with really low payments. Can you buy a QAM tuner in an STB.

Yes, you can buy 256QAM STB's ( and built into your TV). All the other COX HD locations are having to purchase their own and Vegas will also have to purchase them soon enough (there were only a certain amount purchased for the HD testing). As with Cable modems, that you can purchase for a lower cost at Circuit City and Best Buy, etc, STB's are available in other markets, and should be here too. The problem for you currently would be the fact that you STILL have to subscribe to digital cable and an HD channel until they release them as nonscrambled content.
As far as your parents modem, shouldn't they buy one? I thought they were as low as $50 lately. I'm personally getting a new one that supports the new docsis standards so that I can go up from 1.5MB to 3MB downloads (with paid service, of course). But I digress...


Vegggas

Yes they are going to buy it. They signed on before you had the option to buy the modem. I think I'm going to write letters to the FCC, my congressmen, and the franchise authority to force these guys to relese the channels as nonscrambled content. Since Directv isn't going to be able to provide HD locals for a very long time I think that Cox should be force to lower the price on the HD OTA channels.

I may be missing the point, but why should a cable company be "forced" to provide a service under any terms other than what the market dictates? For years, Cox could broadcast local channels when the satellite providers were unable to. They also provided a basic package for these channels and a few others, or you could access them OTA. Was Cox (back then, Prime Cable) forced to provide the basic package, or did they do so to fill a market demand or void? Just my opinion, but it seems that you still have other options for HD local channels (i.e. OTA). I don't mean to discredit your argument or needs, but I don't see why they should provide this service if the market doesn't dictate it at this point, or at any other conditions than what market would dictate.

I can't get OTA. They placed the antennas in the wrong spot. I'm being blocked by a mountain. There is nothing I would enjoy more than to be able to get these channels OTA but I don't know anyone willing to take down half of Black Mountain. And yes I read somewhere that they are forced to offer that cheap basic cable package. I'm just trying to remember where. I just think these Digital channel should be treated exactly the same as the analog channels.

What are your X-streets? I'm a Eastern and Horizon Ridge. Haven't tried OTA (I get Cox). If it is true that they are mandated to provide the local channels as part of a Basic package, then it makes more sense for them to provide the same as HD, maybe at a slightly higher cost (to pay for the increased bandwidth). Is DirectTV that much better than Cox?

I live three blocks east of Gibson and Horizon Ridge. There are three mountain ridges in the way between the channel 8 and 13. I think Directv is better, but I'm biased. A couple of years ago I called Cox to discuss what I needed to do to set up a DNS server and the guy I was talking to accused me of being a 12 year old kid. It pissed me off so much that if there is any way I can avoid them I will.

That would piss me off, too. I've been pretty happy with Cox level of customer service lately, although their knowledge of the high definition service they are providing seems pretty dismal at this point. I'm generalizing, of course, but when I called to upgrade to HD, I knew more than the three people I talked to (and I'm no expert for sure!). The guy that came out to intall the box (for some reason they require that) handed me the box, and watched while I replaced the standard digital cable box with the HD box. He also watched while I installed the digital box in my bedroom (my wife wanted to be able to watch Sex in the City in bed). He did have to call the office to have them activate the HD, which is the reason he had to come out, I guess. He was a very nice guy, and was excited that Cox was offering this service. I did 99% of the work (my choice, not his), but the experience was still pretty pleasant.

The other problem I have with Cox is they keep raising the price. The one time in the two years I had Directv that they shuffled the packages around it ended up being cheaper for me. I just hope they don't keep that up. If they do I won't be able to afford both and will have to drop Cox.

True, they have raised the price (although I don't remember it being too significant). I also have a cable modem through them, so it's too convenient for me to switch right now. I'm buying a new house and will be moving in May (that's what the homebuilder is telling me, anyway), so I may be changing things based on what services are available in that area. Hopefully, I can just stay with Cox.

I've had Cox HD for about two months now. When I upgraded my modem service to 3MB, they also raised the price of Showtime, TMC, Starz and Sundance, basically adding close to $20 on to my bill. That was on top of the extra cost of the modem service. Today I get a survey call about Cox's HD service. Needless to say I wasn't too happy in some areas. They asked about 50 questions regarding HD service, including what I liked about it, what else I wanted, and a ton of questions about Discovery HD. I'm interested to see if more LV HD users will get similar calls. Now's the time to make our voices heard, eh?

It's good to hear that they're taking a somewhat proactive approach to their HD service, with the survey call, etc. Let's hope that they plan on doing great things with the service...

Any word on NBC? I thought they were supposed to be up by Thanksgiving...

Any word on ABC? Superbowl in HD?

I would love to see the superbowl in HD (even though i cannot display 720p natively, i have to sideconvert to 1080i), but my money says that we will not get it here in vegas. I hope they prove me wrong.

Maybe if enough people email the engineering department adair@journalbroadcastgroup.com they will tell us.

I just emailed him and got an auto reply that said he was on vacation this week. It also gave his cell phone number. I wouldn't call it though. I think if we all send him an email when he gets back Monday he will see all of the messages and maybe he'll reply to one of them.

whose email is that? the engineering dept at ABC?

Yes it is the email of Ron Adair, the engineer for the local ABC channel. I have emailed him before. Sometimes he answers my questions, sometimes I don't even get a response.

For what it's worth, here is what the KTNV (ABC) Administrator wrote on their forum board:

"I am being told that we are 99% sure that we WILL be broadcasting the Super Bowl in HDTV and following that we will be broadcasting all the HDTV ABC shows in HDTV. I hope this is the news you wanted to hear about this. If you have any further questions that's what we are here for. Thanks!"

Looks like the Super Bowl will be their 1st HD broadcast.

Toby

That is great news if it is true.

Ditto!

Bump. Any new word on ABC and the superbowl?

How about any other HDTV future additions? I did see the Cox HDTV commerical that did not mention ABC being in HD. At least they are not being disingenuous (on this issue!).

I sent an email to Ron Adair at the email address listed in this thread, and received this reply:

Yes


>>> "Matthew Churchman" <mchurchm2000@yahoo.com> 12/26/02 09:34AM >>>
I wanted to know if you plan to broadcast the superbowl in HDTV. I
read
recently that ABC will be taping the game in HDTV, but I know that
KTNV
still does not pass on any of the HDTV that ABC provides. Will this
change
before the Superbowl? If it is going to be available in HDTV, that
will
definitely have an effect on whether or not I decide to have a
Superbowl
party at my house. Thank you for your time.

Matthew Churchman


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The information contained in this communication may be confidential or
legally privileged and is intended only for the recipient named above.
If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are
hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this
communication or its contents is strictly prohibited. If you have
received this communication in error, please immediately advise the
sender and delete the original and any copies from your computer system.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


So I think it is safe to assume that we will get the Superbowl in HD.

Update on KTNV ABC...They are installing equipment right now and should be up and running for the Superbowl in 2 weeks.

Toby

Nice to see CBS broadcast their playoff games in HD. Next weeks game will be in HD also. Anyone caught a hockey game on HDNet? Just the natural sounds of the arena and a terrific picture. Quite an improvement of the usual SD feeds.

Has anyone gotten digital sound to work from the Cox HD box. I plugged a cable in but it didn't work.

Originally posted by lvthunder
Has anyone gotten digital sound to work from the Cox HD box. I plugged a cable in but it didn't work.

I did. I just plugged an interconnect into the digital out, and into the coax digital in on my receiver. When I access the digital channels, the Dolby Digital light comes on. So, I assume it's working. The sound does noticably improve.

Originally posted by lvthunder
Has anyone gotten digital sound to work from the Cox HD box. I plugged a cable in but it didn't work.

I did. I just plugged an interconnect into the digital out, and into the coax digital in on my receiver. When I access the digital channels, the Dolby Digital light comes on. So, I assume it's working. The sound does noticably improve.

The difference between the Fox broadcast of the playoffs and CBS was incredibly shocking. A friend of mine who is new to HD was a convert. He exclaimed, "why doesn't the average joe football fan know about this..." I agree, Sports is the "killer app" for HDTV. They should run that a lot more in the stores instead of those nature loops. Just picture in your mind a season of football, baseball, hockey and basketball in HD. Makes you salivate, huh?

I agree. In fact, I checked out the HD version of the AFC game at home, then went over to the wife's uncle's house (big Raiders fan), and saw the SD version. HUGE difference. Of course, mine was set up to get the Dolby Digital surround, which made things that much better...

Originally posted by lvthunder
Has anyone gotten digital sound to work from the Cox HD box. I plugged a cable in but it didn't work.

Hi,

What kind of cable from stb tp receiver?

Eddie

Originally posted by fasteddielv
Hi,

What kind of cable from stb tp receiver?

Eddie

I used one side of a Zu Disco cable stereo RCA pair. I emailed the company, and this cable is designed with adequate bandwidth to handle analog and digital. Pretty good stuff for the price.

I will soon upgrade to the Oxyfuel interconnect.

fasteddielv


Check your settings menu I think it can be disable I am not home butt you push setting twice then page down until you see digital out I think

Originally posted by lvthunder
Has anyone gotten digital sound to work from the Cox HD box. I plugged a cable in but it didn't work.

lvthunder,
I didn't know you finally got HD cable! How does it compare your other sources?
Pretty much all of the digital channels will have a direct digital output of some form or another wether it is 2-channel, 3-channel, 4-channel digital or Dolby Digital 5.1. Most of the movie networks will ouput 5.1 when available but the locals are touchy. I have seen them flip flop back and forth a few times watching CBS or come back from a commercial break in SD mode with analog. Someday they will go all HD like Discovery and not have to keep switching the feeds.
For the coax feed, typically any RCA patch cable should work. If you have a reciever with auto switching inputs, choose that as your source mode. If you have to manually switch each time it will be a pain in the rear everytime you watch the analog channels below 99.

vegggas

Originally posted by vegggas

For the coax feed, typically any RCA patch cable should work.

vegggas

I agree that any RCA cable will work, but since we're dealing with higher bandwidth for digital audio, a better-than-standard cable will yield better results. Of course, this also depends on the rest of your audio system whether or not you'll be able to hear the differences...

Yes I finally got the HD box. I really don't like it. The box itself looks like a $10 clock radio that you would get from Wal Mart. I also don't like the fact that there is no optical out. I also have a 4X3 TV and I don't like the fact you can't switch it to 480i mode and fill the entire screen (the installer told me not to watch anything but the HD channels thru the component output. That's a pain.) I also don't like that the menu won't come up when it is outputing 1080i. My Sony HD-100 (Directv) does all of these things. The only two reasons I got this is because I live near Black Mountain and I'm blocked from getting ABC and CBS. The other reason was they were running a special that the HD would be $30 a month. When the first installer came out he didn't have the right box, the sheet said just Digital Cable. He called the main office and they told him there was no HD package for $30 a month. The installer told me I would have to pay $120 a month for HD (this includes the 3 meg service for the cable modem which I only ordered 1.5 meg). I pretty much told him to go piss up a rope and called customer service the next Monday. I had to read the CSR the web page and she put me on hold to check with the manager. So she gets back on the phone and says OK and blamed the marketing department for not notifing them of the special. So when my three months are up I'll be either looking towards getting Dish and a waiver from CBS (which they already say they will deny) or getting BEV (Canadian Satallite). But all in all the HD programming is good the box itself just sucks. Maybe by time my three months is up there will a a STB on the market that will let me get CBS and ABC with just Expanded Basic. If that's the case I will probibly just do that.

Originally posted by bcoombs
I agree that any RCA cable will work, but since we're dealing with higher bandwidth for digital audio, a better-than-standard cable will yield better results.

Nonsense. The digital audio is an AC-3 encoded bitstream. Jitter isn't even an issue since the clock is generated on the receiver. The decoded bits and the timing are going to be the same as long as the cable isn't introducing errors - and if that happens, you'll know it because your receiver will mute.

Ideally, an RCA interconnect with 75-ohm characteristic impedence should be used, though for typical interconnect lengths, it isn't going to matter.

-Jonathan

Has anyone seen channel 13 today. On cable (I can't check OTA on this channel) they were broadcasting a 4X3 picture. I had turned to 13 earlier in the evening and just saw a blank picture. I wonder if channel 13 is installing the HD stuff?

Originally posted by lvthunder
Yes I finally got the HD box. I really don't like it. <snip>
I also have a 4X3 TV and I don't like the fact you can't switch it to 480i mode and fill the entire screen <snip>
This box does suck with a 4x3 TV - No aspect ratio control, so you get a letterboxed 16x9 image in a 4x3 window. A friend of mine, who also has a 4x3 TV, uses something called stretch or fill mode on his TV to fill the screen with HD content. Doesn't look too bad, but there should be alternatives. (see below)
I also don't like that the menu won't come up when it is outputing 1080i. <snip>
Don't quite know what you mean, but the graphic overlay is generated in SD mode and will not display HD content in the preview window...(also see below)
I had to read the CSR the web page and she put me on hold to check with the manager. So she gets back on the phone and says OK and blamed the marketing department for not notifing them of the special. <snip>
Typical sales reps, no arguments from me about that sort of thing.
But all in all the HD programming is good the box itself just sucks. Maybe by time my three months is up there will a a STB on the market that will let me get CBS and ABC with just Expanded Basic. If that's the case I will probibly just do that.
From what I understand, the 3100HD was an upgrade from the old modded 2100HD and COX LV bought a fixed amount of these 3100's for launch of the HD product. At the time, these were about the only thing compatible with the software in use in LV and they cost roughly $500 each. I have heard that when this supply runs out, they will no longer carry any HD boxes in stock, because of these factors:
1) Money - They knew going into this venture, that they would lose money and there is no way to recap the cost of such an expensive STB. The upfront cost is too prohibitive to purchase a large volume, but it had to be done to roll out the product.
2) Laws and ruling - Until the standards were set (last week!) and manufacturers were able to produce large amounts of STBs, they were not going to see the STB's in retail stores for consumer purchase.
3) New and better products would be available soon making the current stock obsolete. Once the regulations were set and adopted, they would see the same trend in cable modems where prices would plummet and better products would pop up everywhere.
At CES, I had a Q&A with the Pioneer guys and saw their new Voyager 3510HD box which is supposedly available later this month and is scheduled to be a retail product at electronics stores. It is compatible with COX software and was running the COX HD feed, and will most likely be available within a few weeks or more. Good news is that it has all of the features you mentioned were missing from the SA3100HD, including all format decoding with 6 display choices for output, HD graphics overlays, and full downconversion. Also, pushed back until summer though, is their DVR for digital HD cable. It wasn't running, and there were no brouchures left, but it looks like a winner if it ever gets released. COX has supported Pioneer with their analog boxes, and they should follow suit with their new digital HD boxes too, we just have to wait and see when it happens.
Since COX LV was just acknowledged for it's deployment and commitment to HD services and is considered to be the standard for future HD cable systems and their deployment, I see no reason why they would try to hold back any of this technology available to the consumer.

vegggas

So do you think I'll be able to buy one of these new boxes and only keep expanded basic and get CBS-HD and ABC-HD?

They are definitely doing something on Ch 13. I guess we'll find out Sunday when they show Alias :)

Toby

Originally posted by lvthunder
So do you think I'll be able to buy one of these new boxes and only keep expanded basic and get CBS-HD and ABC-HD?
First, the local HD channels are encrypted, so Cox would have to authorize you, they arent in the clear. And I'm sure they'll say that you need digi cable in order to get HD (even if its not a technical requirement, they'll do it to increase revenue).

The Ch 13 webpage has posted an official statement about their HD status. This is great news! Go to www.ktnv.com

Toby

Originally posted by doormat
First, the local HD channels are encrypted, so Cox would have to authorize you, they arent in the clear. And I'm sure they'll say that you need digi cable in order to get HD (even if its not a technical requirement, they'll do it to increase revenue).
I don't have any idea what kind of plans or pricing they may come up with, but I'm still trying to get a responce from the correct people to get locals "clear to air" for standard digital broadcast instead of with a subscription. This probably will not get resolved soon as there is no current reason to distribute free HD content without some prior authorization within a subscription. Currently I don't think there are individual and a la cart systems in place to handle the amount of subscriptions needed for each individual box in such a large cable system.
Long Winded Technical Explanations Assumed Here... somewhat going off topic.
All digital channels are encrypted. A group of plans are created for different packages and those package details are broadcast to your box, which authorizes the decryption process for each channel plan. Without the standard plan subscription to authorize the box, no channels will be decrypted or decoded at all. So the bare minimum would be for a subscription to a basic digital package to authorize the box to decode the basic channels, including, hopefully, the local digital. Basic Analog is in a separate system and doesn't need to be decoded to view channels, thus there is no subscription plan or equipment needed other than to have the drop feed connected to your location and a fee for the network access. Once you add a converter to your analog to get PPV and movie channels, you are then on an active network system that needs to authorize those extra channels.
The digital encryption scheme is the only way to make the closed private cable network actually closed and private. Having to get an authorization for services and thus decreasing cable theft, hopefully will eliminate most of the ingress problems caused by illegal drops and non authorized connections, which will make for better picture quality, reliability and greater bandwidth availability. I work to build, service and help maintain, about 120,000 gaming hotel rooms with VOD, PPV and Data communications via RF lines. We are looking to go completely digital eventually to avoid the theft and ingress issues that plague the Vegas and other areas. Especially when a good hearted hotel employee runs their own feeds off the lines and creates problems within the system and then calls to complain about their signals- ARGH! If you only knew how many times adult PPV content was shown in public areas because of a property connecting to a closed system without prior authorization and then have them scream about it... Sorry, had to vent.

vegggas

Heh, you must hate black hat/defcon. Tons of hackers coming into vegas, messing with the PPV, VOD in hotels...

Actually I thought there is one in the clear digital cable channel. 199 I think (its the ppv preview channel, or maybe the digi cable info channel). But I'm pretty sure there has to be one channel w/o encryption, just for testing equipment...

I thought the new cable law said that locals were going to be unencrypted. If not did Cox have to subscribe the Pioneer box they were showing a CES. Also about the boxes not making Cox any money. That's all they have to do is rent the box for 50 months. So in 5 years or so the box will be all profit. I keep hearing about the poor cable companies that have to spend a lot of money to get HD to the customers. They will have 50 years or so to get that money back. I think the cable companies are scamming customers who only want the HD channels.

Originally posted by doormat
Heh, you must hate black hat/defcon. Tons of hackers coming into vegas, messing with the PPV, VOD in hotels...
It's mostly their equipment hooked up, jamming the return communication lines that affect other users. Actually videogames hooked onto the system via RF cause the most problems. One game and the hotel calls about 1000 rooms not working...
Originally posted by doormat
Actually I thought there is one in the clear digital cable channel. 199 I think (its the ppv preview channel, or maybe the digi cable info channel). But I'm pretty sure there has to be one channel w/o encryption, just for testing equipment... [/B]
Yeah, I think there are some graphic feeds with almost no bandwidth that are actually generated in house and go out without going through the whole system. Channels 107, 498 and 499 feeds show as not being active in the tv manager window and not an active channel on pages 4 and 10 of the service menu.
Originally posted by lvthunder
I thought the new cable law said that locals were going to be unencrypted. If not did Cox have to subscribe the Pioneer box they were showing a CES..
Not aware of the specifics of any laws, but my thought was that all of the local stuff applied to analog signals and/or applied only when stations were threatened from losing advertising and could not reach their markets because of alternative programming. Currently, Digital stations show LESS local advertising than the same program airing on analog because of national network commercials airing in place of locals.(try watching CBS HD and listen to the analog channel 8 during comercials) The Pioneer box was subbed for CES and they could change channels.
Originally posted by lvthunder
Also about the boxes not making Cox any money. That's all they have to do is rent the box for 50 months. So in 5 years or so the box will be all profit. I keep hearing about the poor cable companies that have to spend a lot of money to get HD to the customers. They will have 50 years or so to get that money back. I think the cable companies are scamming customers who only want the HD channels....
Would YOU want to buy that box for $500 and keep it 50 months, when you can get the Pioneer for $350 with better features 6 months later? I think they bought 2000 boxes at $500 ea ($1,000,000.00) and have around 1000 HD customers, of which not all are paying customers. Then there is the HD equipment for receiving, handling and re-transmitting each of the feeds from sattelite and locals. As far as scamming goes, I believe most all users would want more than just 3 channels on their TV. The only people who would want what you are asking are non cable users who are using sattelite and are not happy with that service. I already have wheels, rims, axles, transfer case and bumpers for a new Jeep, but the dealership won't let me buy it without charging for all those things already added, especially that friggin scotchgard and desert prep package!

vegggas

Actully I am very happy with satallite, but I can't get the HD locals from Directv (because there is not enough bandwidth to put them there). But that's a whole other issue I have with the FCC. I would get them OTA but there is a mountain blocking the signal. As for would I buy this box no I wouldn't, but it would be nice to have that option. I just want the local digital channels to be treated like the local digital channels. That's all I ask of Cox.

Thanks everyone for such an informative thread! I've been reading the HDTV Programming forum regularly, but I just stumbled across the Local HDTV Info forum. It is really nice to get such detailed info about the HDTV situation in Las Vegas.

I signed up with the Cox HDTV service about three weeks ago, and I'm still debating if I should keep the service beyond the 30 day money back guarantee window. I'm a satisfied DirecTV customer, and like lvthunder, I really only need Cox for the local HD channels. The current line of DirecTV HD set top boxes are way too expensive at this time, so I figured the $29.99 Cox promotion was a good way to give HDTV a try at (supposedly) minimal cost.

The picture quality on the HD channels has been great so far (except for KNTV). However, there are a few factors that will most likely cause me to drop Cox for the time being.

My main issue is with the converter box. The 3100 box has a lot of ergonomic and operational problems with my setup. I too have a 4X3 tv (Sony kv-32hv600), and I agree with lvthunder that it's a pain to only be able to watch the HD channels through the component inputs.

The menu system on the box leaves a lot to be desired compared to my DirecTivo unit. I was thinking of dropping DirecTV if I really liked the Cox service, but after spending a few weeks with the 3100 box, there's no way I can envision swapping my DirecTivo for this rig.

I also noticed that the analog channels will not send sound through the digital output of the 3100 box. So when I change from HD channels to analog channels, I not only have to switch the input on my TV, but also switch the sound input on my receiver.

Additionally, I have not been able to get a DD 5.1 signal on any of the digital channels. On my DirecTivo I can get 5.1 with some HBO and Showtime programming, not so with the 3100.

I've already called Cox to see if they can give me a different model converter box, but as pointed out in this thread, the 3100 is all they have at this time. Vegggas, that's some promising news about the pioneer box, hopefully that will be an option real soon. I hope your right about the $350 cost to purchase.

The other thing is, the HDTV service is costing me a lot more than the $29.99 month promotion Cox advertised. With converter fees and taxes, my first month's bill is over $50. If I was going to drop DirecTV, I could probably justify the cost, but I doubt if I will drop DirecTV after my experiences with the 3100 box.

I'm also slightly miffed about the $50 installation, when they are offering free installation for a regular digital cable box where the only difference is no component output. I offered to pick up the box and install it myself, but no dice. When the installer came, I took the box from him and he watched me hook it up to my system. Oh well, I guess Cox has to recover their investment in HDTV some way.

I do have to hand it to Cox for at least offering HDTV service. I work part-time in the Bay Area, spend almost half of my time up here, and there is not even a murmur of HDTV cable in these parts. So I guess HDTV owners in LV are lucky they can sample some HD offerings without too much up front expense in a set top box.

If it wasn't for my issues with the 3100 box, I would probably keep the Cox HDTV service despite the cost. It would be nice if they offered just the local basic package ($9.70) with the HDTV converter box ($9.95), but I don't think this is an option. I'd be willing to put up with the 3100 box if Cox HDTV service was only costing me about $20/month in addition to DirecTV.

I think the ultimate solution to my needs will be the upcoming HD DirecTivo and a good antenna. But that is almost a year off, and who knows how much the thing will cost?

Dick Diablo

Yeah there is no way I would give up my DirecTivo for the 3100 either. I was able to get DD 5.1 though. When I tried the first time I plugged the cable into the composite video out. Oops. I just need to get a better cable. I tried it with a coax cable with RCA adapters at the end but the sound sometimes drops out. I haven't gotten my first bill from Cox yet. I imagine it will be screwed up too since they screwed up my name, cable modem, and HDTV service on the order form which I did online. How you can screw up a persons name when they order online is unbelievable to me.

Originally posted by lvthunder
How you can screw up a persons name when they order online is unbelievable to me.

There probably was a person involved somewhere in the process. ;)

I guess my reason for using cox (as opposed to Directv) is the fact that we do get the local stations in HD (as well as Discovery HD). Although I would really have to consider changing if there was a DirectTivo HD. Also, I hope this is the case, it may be easier for Cox to add channels to their lineup give the fact that their bandwidth requirements are not as limited as DirectTV.

I think I would be much happier if there was a HD PVR for Cox Cable. Then I would be happy as a pig in _____. Occasionally, I send an email to Cox to see if they are going to be beta testing a PVR. SO far, I have received no response.

Yeah I saw the HD PVR at CES. It was pretty cool. I would recommend a TiVo for everyone. I did ask if they planned on making a cable compatible TiVo, but they said not at first because the standards were just established.

About DD5.1 - Most of the movie channels output 5.1, depending on the material, and I think the CBS and ABC primetime lineups are in 5.1 too. At this time (8:00PM) Showtime is showing "Nurse Betty" and ABC is broadcasting their "Disco" thing, both in Dolby Digital. Check your reciever's audio mode for that input and make sure it is set up for DD5.1, and also (chuckle) don't connect it to the yellow composite connector.
If your digital audio is dropping out, that is a known BUG for the SA3100 box. Usually this happens when the threshold drops too low in the reciever and it has too many correcting errors. The main corrective action is to channel away and back again (another reason to get a different box). As for changing from digital to analog sound, my reciever has auto sensing inputs that switch from analog to digital to DD5.1. As far as analog channels with analog audio, there is no A to D conversion on any box, so analog channels will always have analog audio on any system.

About HDPVR Beta Testing - Currently, the testing for EOD (Entertainment On Demand) is going to be finished soon. This allows you purchase shows, movies or events and play them back at your leisure for 24 hours with full VCR/DVD funtionality. The HDPVR has been pushed back closer to summer pending availability from Pioneer and Scientific Atlanta (see previous post about Pioneer Voyager HDPVR) BTW, the $350.00 price for the HD reciever was a guess, based on rumors, but nothing is known yet.

About Local Digital - I dropped the dish to get local channels, because I never knew what was going on locally, Then I moved and my house was situated where I was going to have some problems getting a line of sight w/o mounting to the street side of my house. I hope Diablo's 30 day covers Superbowl! ABC has all but Guaranteed it to be broadcast in HD and all available programming starting that Sunday. ( www.ktnv.com ) As of now, they have not been broadcasting HD yet, just converted digital.

About HD On 4x3TV - Many TV's now have mode changable aspect control to view HD in fullscreen mode. It would be nice to have on the STB like the Pioneer, but HD as a standard is supposed to 16x9 anyway... All of the HD channels except Discovery and PBS are available as SD on their respective analog channels, this is how you would view "downconverted" HD material via the s-video port. Only the component port has enough bandwidth to show the HD stream.

vegggas

Recently posted on the http://www.yourinsidelasvegas.com (ABC Channel 13 site):

For the first time ever in Las Vegas, 13 Inside Las Vegas will broadcast The Super Bowl in Digital High Definition Television. "Up to this point, we've been converting our regular signal to digital and rebroadcasting it on our Digital Television channel," according to Ron Adair, Director of Broadcast Operations and Engineering at 13 Inside Las Vegas.



Starting Super Bowl Sunday, all ABC programs that are sent to 13 Inside Las Vegas in High Definition will be presented on our second digital channel in full High Definition. Most prime time programs from ABC are produced in the new digital format. The remainder of our schedule will also be broadcast on our digital channel in an upconverted format or a standard format. Viewers of our regular channel 13 signal will see no difference.

Originally posted by vegggas
About DD5.1 - Most of the movie channels output 5.1, depending on the material, and I think the CBS and ABC primetime lineups are in 5.1 too.

All of CBS's prime-time scripted shows are DD 2.0 (Pro-Logic surround encoded into two channel Dolby Digital stereo). I've never seen (on my A/V receiver's front panel display) 5.1 from CBS. Go to the Dolby web site and you won't see CBS or NBC listed as ever broadcasting a show in 5.1. Only ABC has done that.

-Jonathan

Quick question. Does anyone get a good signal on Channel 13 in Summerlin? A friend of mine gets channel 8 and PBS just fine, but Channel 13is sporadic (with the antenna attached to the dish). I need to jury-rig a system for a super-bowl party. Any ideas? Should we get Cox for a month???? Thanks, Tim

Actually I asked KLAS (CBS) about the Dolby Digital 5.1 and they said if CBS broadcasts the Grammy's in 5.1 like has been announced they will pass it thru.

Tallen I would try to get an antenna going rather than getting Cox for a month. I finally got my first bill from them and they screwed that up too. Unbelievable.

About DD5.1 - Most of the movie channels output 5.1, depending on the material, and I think the CBS and ABC primetime lineups are in 5.1 too. At this time (8:00PM) Showtime is showing "Nurse Betty" and ABC is broadcasting their "Disco" thing, both in Dolby Digital. Check your reciever's audio mode for that input and make sure it is set up for DD5.1, and also (chuckle) don't connect it to the yellow composite connector.
If your digital audio is dropping out, that is a known BUG for the SA3100 box. Usually this happens when the threshold drops too low in the reciever and it has too many correcting errors. The main corrective action is to channel away and back again (another reason to get a different box). As for changing from digital to analog sound, my reciever has auto sensing inputs that switch from analog to digital to DD5.1. As far as analog channels with analog audio, there is no A to D conversion on any box, so analog channels will always have analog audio on any system.

About HDPVR Beta Testing - Currently, the testing for EOD (Entertainment On Demand) is going to be finished soon. This allows you purchase shows, movies or events and play them back at your leisure for 24 hours with full VCR/DVD funtionality. The HDPVR has been pushed back closer to summer pending availability from Pioneer and Scientific Atlanta (see previous post about Pioneer Voyager HDPVR) BTW, the $350.00 price for the HD reciever was a guess, based on rumors, but nothing is known yet.

About Local Digital - I dropped the dish to get local channels, because I never knew what was going on locally, Then I moved and my house was situated where I was going to have some problems getting a line of sight w/o mounting to the street side of my house. I hope Diablo's 30 day covers Superbowl! ABC has all but Guaranteed it to be broadcast in HD and all available programming starting that Sunday. ( www.ktnv.com ) As of now, they have not been broadcasting HD yet, just converted digital.

About HD On 4x3TV - Many TV's now have mode changable aspect control to view HD in fullscreen mode. It would be nice to have on the STB like the Pioneer, but HD as a standard is supposed to 16x9 anyway... All of the HD channels except Discovery and PBS are available as SD on their respective analog channels, this is how you would view "downconverted" HD material via the s-video port. Only the component port has enough bandwidth to show the HD stream.

vegggas

Originally posted by Tallen234
Quick question. Does anyone get a good signal on Channel 13 in Summerlin? A friend of mine gets channel 8 and PBS just fine, but Channel 13is sporadic (with the antenna attached to the dish).

I'm in the Lakes, between Desert Inn and Sahara near Hualapai.

Channel 13's signal strength is the highest of any channel I get, around a 98, while Channel 8(7) is down around 62. This is on a Dish Network Echostar 6000 receiver. I actually had to take the amplifier out of my antenna (Channel Master 3010), because it was overloading the receiver. I got better reception and higher signal strengths w/o the amplifier.

-Jonathan

Thanks Jonathon.

How do you have it mounted? I really just need something that will suffice for Superbowl Sunday. Even something that I can Duct tap to a ladder (if it works) would be fine.

What does everyone suggest?

Originally posted by Tallen234
How do you have it mounted? I really just need something that will suffice for Superbowl Sunday. Even something that I can Duct tap to a ladder (if it works) would be fine.

Ok, this is really embarassing. My house faces south, and I have a patio cover in the back. I took an old Dish network dish mount, bolted it to the patio cover, and then crammed a 5' antenna mast into it that I bought from Radio Shack. I mounted my antenna on this. The mount is in the northeast corner of the patio cover, so it isn't obstructed by the house (just by a 40' tall Pine tree). So the antenna is about 14' off the ground. At one time I had the antenna laying on the patio cover, with a couple of concrete blocks on it to keep it from flying away. It was good enough to pull in CBS, which was the only digital station available back then.

-Jonathan

Wow! Just found you guys. Thank goodness, a support group for HD-starved Las Vegans. Good news about the Super Bowl. Now we need to turn up the heat on the rest of the local stations.

For the record, I have Direct TV ('cause I gotta have my two-tuner Direct Tivo) with a 65" Mitsubishi and Mits STB. Yeah, I paid too much for the STB, but that's life on the bleeding edge isn't it.

Before I found this forum, I've had good luck communicating with the engineers at the local stations. They've been pretty responsive. The only news I have to report that I haven't seen here is that local Fox doesn't intend to broadcast the 480p signal (which is what Fox calls their "high resolution") signal in the forseeable future.

Thanks for a great forum!

Looks like KTNV-DT channel 13-01 has flipped their HD switch on tonight!!!
NYPD Blue is lookin' good right now in glorious HD!

Da*m, I missed that!

This is a little off topic but has anyone tried the new wireless internet service KeyOn at http://www.keyon.com
I'm thinking about trying them out and can't seem to find anywhere on the internet that someone that has the service says yeah or neah. They avertise 1.5MB service (same as Cox) for $25+$3 equipment rental fee.

lvthunder,

It looks like the company is just starting up. They don't have their ISP "Partners" listed. That would be one of my concerns is that you still have to pay for the ISP on top of their charges. Also, I wonder if their equipment would fall under the satellite dish exception to CC&R's enforcement.....

Tallen,

I live in the Arbors Village in Summerlin. I use the Terk, dish mounted antenna and get all of the Digital OTA channels fine. Previous to the Terk, I used an ancient set of rabbit ears and would have to set them up at very weird angles to lock in all channels at a time.

I have the Terk mounted to my HD dish (pointed at 61.5) so it gets a pretty clear shot to/from the Black Mountain/Seven Hills broadcasting points.

$50 at Radio Shack and cheaper at Wal-Mart I hear...

Jhue/Jonathan,

I see you have the Dish 6000 too. I was wondering if you're bothered by the fan noise of the 8VSB. Seems to be a pretty common problem but can't find any information on fixes people have done. I'm going to change the noisy fan out after the Superbowl and am wondering if you've heard of any solutions? It drives me bonkers and when my wife noticed the whining the other day, I knew it was really bad! :)

Thanks!

vegashdtv

To quiet the fan, solder a 30 ohm 1/8 watt resistor in series with the red power wire and insulate with heat shrink tube.

Does anyone else watching ABC with the 3500 from Cox lose the video and audio when they switch from DD5.1 to DD2.0 or vice versa. I have to change the channel and change it back to get it to work again. This is very frustrating.

Originally posted by lvthunder
Does anyone else watching ABC with the 3500 from Cox lose the video and audio when they switch from DD5.1 to DD2.0 or vice versa. I have to change the channel and change it back to get it to work again. This is very frustrating.

Not sure I understand, What device are you switching? Is this the SA3100HD or something else you have labled as 3500?
The 3100HD only has an audio setting for either "Dolby Digital" or "Other" in it's setup for the digital audio out connector. When I change that setting, my box doesn't need to change the channel to reset the stream, although my Yamaha A/V reciever DOES Auto Detect the input and change it's input mode (Analog / Dolby Digital / DTS) to the best source available.
Is that what you are referring to?
Some recieving devices do not automatically switch audio or video modes and will lock on to the last signal they recieved. Could this be what you are experiencing?

vegggas

ABC came through with the HD for SuperBowl! Game looks great, but there is still a lot of switching of formats for commercials and in game playback.

Vegggas

I lose audio with Explorer 2200 if surfing the digital channels rapidly. I have 2200 into Kenwood Surround set on auto via analog and digital connections. I can restore audio by selecting stereo sound and then back to digital or changing channel, wait for audio to kick in then back to the channel I want to view. So I trained myself to surf slowly (let audio kick in on each channel (1 second).

I want my HDTV!

Eddie:cool:

What I'm saying is the SA3100HD when KTNV switches from the network feed which is in DD5.1 to the local commercials (the 14X9 picture and DD2.0) the picture would go black after a couple of seconds and no sound. I would have to do a channel change up and down to get the picture back. Then when they would switch back to the network feed I would have to do the same thing. Am I the only on experiencing this?

During SuperBowl the first half came in terrific in HD. Then it started to break up every couple of minutes. Had to go to regular channel to watch the second half. Later I checked when Alien came on and it seemed to be OK again. Using a Hughes E86 and OTA antenna. Anyone else experience this? Embarrasing because I had a few people in to watch in HD. They weren't impressed!!!

Originally posted by lvthunder
What I'm saying is the SA3100HD when KTNV switches from the network feed which is in DD5.1 to the local commercials (the 14X9 picture and DD2.0) the picture would go black after a couple of seconds and no sound. I would have to do a channel change up and down to get the picture back. Then when they would switch back to the network feed I would have to do the same thing. Am I the only on experiencing this?

I experienced the exact same thing. Anyone know what causes this? Is this an inherent problem of the SA3100HD box?

Anyway, I thought ABC did a fair presentation of the Superbowl in HD. The picture was good, but I thought the audio-sync was a little off, especially at the start of the game. It didn't look like they filmed the game differently to take advantage of HD (which, of course, they couldn't). I would have liked to have seen them zoom out a little to show more of the field. Still, a good watch, and a good game (if you're not rooting for the Raiders, which my wife was).

Originally posted by bcoombs
I experienced the exact same thing. Anyone know what causes this? Is this an inherent problem of the SA3100HD box?

Something happened to me during Alias last night (I am using the SA3100HD). It would go black and I would have to change the station and come back for it to "correct". I originally thought that the digital station when out and starting watching Alias on the regular station and then when I went back to the digitial station it was back on.

I was watching the Super Bowl at a friends house OTA and the dialogue did always match the picture. Particuarly when Al and Madden were speaking in the particular shot.

All in all it was great however. I love sports in HD!

KTNV seemed to have some problems with the transmitters during the game. The signal dropping out and then the changing signal formats were causing problems for all local users using both OTA and cable. When that much data is being sent, and then it gets corrupted like it was doing all night, the end devices usually need a reset to get the stream synced up again. I heard from a user with just a digital TV tuner, that the same thing was happening to him too.
Nothing like a"trial by fire" HD release from our local affiliate:D
Hope it gets better soon, cause when it looked good, it looked really good.

vegggas

Yeah I think they did a good job with what they had to work with. From my understanding the audio sync problems were country wide so it wasn't KTNV screwing it up. I only problem I had was when they switched to the local commercials. I had the same problem with Mission Impossible on Saturday. I think if they could send 5.1 with the local commercials it will fix some of the problems. Even if they only use two of the channels. I'm not sure if that's possible though.

Does anyone know if the new boxes that may hit the streets soon (Pioneer?) would have the same problems? If it's a problem switching audio modes, it would seem like it could be fixed somehow.

Maybe I'll start a thread in the hardware section and ask people in other markets if this is happening to them.

Great idea.

The basic premise for digital transmission is that the receiving mechanism will lock onto a digital stream and not vary from that signal type. If the digital signal changes, very few, if any, pieces of consumer equipment will automatically renegotiate the handshake for a different protocol. If you watch a station that never changes its formats, like Discovery HD, then there will be no blackout problems. However, the current 3100 box does suffer from the audio dropout bug that leaves the picture without a digital audio output, but it's not related to the complete blackout issue we saw on Sunday.
Will the new Pioneer boxes fix this??? Since the same symptoms were seen on many different types of hardware and signal transmission types, it is not probable, but we can always hope.
lvthunder, if you do start a thread about hardware, please provide a link here. I don't always check the other parts of the forum since I've subscribed to this thread and can pick up my email links from anywhere and view them remotely.
thanks
vegggas

Here is the thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=219725

Now that ABC is done (although there are some bugs), what is next for Cox? HDNET, NBC, FOX (480p is better than 480i)?

Does anyone know?

My hope would be NBC.

I just played catch up on the thread. I'm not a big football fan, but I enjoyed just watching ABC/KTNV roll out HD. My roommate, who is a big fan but not much of a TVhead commented that ABC finally give CBS a run for the money.

I am very excited about the Pioneer box. I'm sorry I missed this at CES. I can't wait to get rid of the SA box. I was seriously considering a JVC D-Theater deck to record, but the lack of a DVI port on my TV kind of kills that idea. Too bad it doesn't have component out as well.

Cheers!

Originally posted by Tallen234
Now that ABC is done (although there are some bugs), what is next for Cox? HDNET, NBC, FOX (480p is better than 480i)?

Does anyone know?

Actually COX has nothing to do with ABC, NBC, FOX, or any other local HD channels. They just pass through whatever is given to them from the local station. NBC has been "repairing" and waiting on one more part for several months now... Their channel was allocated and is in the lineup, but just not seen with standard boxes. ABC was actually added to the lineup a long time ago and then taken away from the lineup because their feed was really bad. They were reinserted again during the Nov 15th realignment, and last week the station started broadcasting real HD content. As far as FOX is concerned, I think they are playing the waiting game. Some of the other local channels have not signed retransmit agremments with COX, so they can't be retransmitted in theri digital format (even though most are all still very poor and none are HD yet)
I heard that a few studios will be sending out more HD only channels soon via their Sat feeds to operators. Some big names like ESPN (EXPN?) HD extreme, Hallmark and Lifetime are almost ready to get picked up. A few rumors were heard about HDNET, and another one or two movie channels is possible. Once those are available, it all depends on if the local COX operator actually is going to pay to carry those channels. As far as I know, currently Las Vegas has all of the HD channels that are available that do not have an exclusive contract with a dish provider or a retransmit agreemnet that has not been finalized.
My speculation is that we may also see some of the "Super Stations" go HD soon. Stations like WGN and TNT could send HD feeds, especially when they offer their local sports programming. Also, an HD PPV channel would be nice, but I don't think the provider (IN DEMAND) offers this yet.
The only KNOWN thing locally for COX right now is the EOD rollout that is for instant PPV programming that enables VCR functionality to your purchase. Henderson is already working and has been in testing for a few months.

Vegggas

Actually HDNet movies could be picked up by Cox if they wanted to. There is no exclusivity with that one.

Hey vegggas,

Any word on Cox beta testing the new HD PVR? or any PVR for that matter.....

No news on hardware PVR yet, just Entertainment On Demand - PVR style control of choice movies and shows.
No news on HDNET yet - Hmmm, doesn't their sat exclusivity end March 31st and then Charter starts their cable broadcast soon after???

Here's some news...

Wait for it...

Watch this weekend...

Be sure to surf through ALL of your channels in the 700's

vegggas

The suspense is terrible . . . I hope it'll last.

What a tease!

You would think that if Charter gets HDnet, then Cox should follow...

Update on PVR - Cox in Gainesville Florida have started using the SA8000 digital PVR as a full release product - More markets to follow during 2003. Hopefully the market responds well and it will hit other markets soon. Still no news on HD PVR testing.
In Demand PPV announced HD PPV starting in April with "Big Fat Greek Wedding", "Road to Perdition" and the "The Tuxedo" as first HD PPV releases. No confirmation if Vegas will have that HD service, but everything looks good and they do use In Demand as their PPV provider.
HDNET - When Charter actually begins broadcasting, Cox might also work out a nationwide deal. Following the past performance of Cox and HD, they just happen to throw stuff out there without a lot of fanfare or advanced notice. Suddenly a channel appears where there used to be nothing. Same scenario applies to other channels coming soon (real soon?). Seems like Cox doesn't want to announce something they can't backup, so they just remain quiet and see what happens (Less Talk, More Action?).
No matter what - Things are looking brighter over the next few months!

vegggas

Anyone getting ABC digital over the air? Is 3-1 supposed to be on ch2?

basic,
There are three OTA HD stations in LV.
ABC KTNV-DT ch 13-01
CBS KLAS-DT ch 8-01
PBS KLVX-DT ch 11-01

Hopefully channel 3 will decide to join the HD crowd.

So,
Does everyone like the HD NBA channel or what? No one else has posted yet, so I guess I will start things off.

Looks great at my house!


vegggas

Originally posted by SteveRS
basic,
There are three OTA HD stations in LV.
ABC KTNV-DT ch 13-01
CBS KLAS-DT ch 8-01
PBS KLVX-DT ch 11-01

Hopefully channel 3 will decide to join the HD crowd.

Sadly, the last I heard is that they (NBC channel 3) are only going to be broadcasting Standard Def 480i for the forseeable future. It also appears that FOX is doing just 480i too, not their widescreen format or whatever it's called. As far as all other local channels, nobody has stepped up with HD content other than the three listed above in StevRS' post and none seem to be willing to make the leap right now. It's been rumored that Cox has no plans to carry the digital versions of a local channels if there is no benefit in signal other than just to have a digital signal (i.e. no HD, no carry). They usually get direct analog feeds from them that look great, but the digital signals suffer from upconversion and reliability issues. We will have to hope Cox gets more national HD feeds while the local stations sit around and play the waiting game.

vegggas

I missed it. Is the channel there for good or was it just for the all star game.

lvthunder,

The game tonight will be in HD. Last night's slam dunk and three-point contest looked very nice.

lvthunder,
You should be able to see the test bars right now, and the game starts again tonight at 5:00PM, possibly much earlier for content. I missed the first half last last night because I was out. As far as how long it lasts, it may just be for this weekend - for now. This was a TNT HD special event partnered with In Demand PPV (free view). What I, and many others, are hoping is that TNT goes HD all the way very soon. These are TNT cameras and they do sporting events and other programming. If they lease more sattelite space to transmit HD, then we have a new channel!
Also, since we saw In Demand's HD PPV feed, we should be able to get the HD PPV channel when it debuts next month.

vegggas

Vegggas

Thanks for all the info. I saw a glimpse of the all star hoopla last night...looked good. I'll check out the game tonight.

I'm hoping like heck that Cox picks up ESPN-HD. Sports in HD is a match made in heaven!

-jb

It's after 5:00 and the game is on! Channel 735 in HD!

About ESPN HD that has been the rumor for a long time. I think that it will be distributed by everyone, so as soon as it is available, it should be here.

vegggas

I spoke to the Fox engineer a coupld of weeks ago and he said that they will only do 480i until Fox forces them to do 480p. He said that ALL Fox stations doing digital are supposed to do 480i AND 480p. He said until they hear from Fox they will not do 480p for the next 18-24 months.

Does anyone know the contact number or address for Fox so we can tell them about KVVU?

Toby

Well, Channel 735 has been deleted from the lineup - at least til next time... It was good while it lasted. Looks like TNT used separate cameras for HD and SD material while viewing the PIP action with the analog TNT station. I wonder when the next viewing period is going be???
I do know that this was a test by a lot of different companies to see what they could do. The PPV provider, the local cable affiliates, the sat companies and TNT were all known, and HDNet was rumored to be involved too. Even though it was a free PPV, I think it was the first ever live HDPPV event that spans across all platforms to all providers.
Did anybody compare the sat feed with the cable feed? I know there are a few cross platform users here. I only watched the first 45 min, but the picture was extremly high quality - I would rate it up there with the PBS feed. I assume the sat feed was exactly the same, but just wondering.

Note on FOX. Since the FCC mandates that channels have to only go digital, there is nothing legally making them choose a higher def format than 480i. This only requires each station to be able to transmit in a digital format. To go to a different resolution still requires an upgrade to more expensive equipment, including incoming (sat) and outgoing (ant) feeds.

vegggas

Anyone here willing to help me install my triple dish after 4pm today PLEASE? Me and my friends spent hours yesterday but couldn't make it work. Will try again today. I'm gonna use 2 regular receivers and 1 Sony HD200 and 1 Hughes E86
I live in Alta between Buffalo & Durango. If anyone have time today please call me at 480-6947, I really need HELP.
Thanks

Nevermind! It's outstanding right now. Most of the trans are more than 90, some are 80 something and a few are only 60 some :( I don't know if those low trans OK or not.

Please take a look at these signal strengh and tell me if I need to fine tune my dish a little more or not:

Here are some low trans Sat A:
4-0 signal
12-0
20-45
26-62
the rest are good

from Sat B:
24-49
25-61
28-63
29-62
32-64
the rest are good

Sat C is good.
Take a look and please tell me if those are normal?
Thanks

While this really isnt the proper place for helpling you with DBS, the quick explanation for your sat A readings is because transponders 4, 12, 18, 20, 26, 28 are spot beams, and thus the spot isnt covering vegas (or on the fringe).

Sat B? I dunno...

This isn't HD, but the "Nascar In Car" on channels 523-529 (Cox digital) are looking great! Almost TOO MUCH information to keep track of.
Didn't someone mention this was going to be 480p over sat or something?

(edit) Someone just reminded me about the FOX 480P. That's probably what I heard that was going to be a higher resoulution - too bad it's not here yet.

vegggas

I seem to have lost Ch 13 DT. Did they go off temporarily or do I have a problem? Other OTA DT come in fine. I re-scanned but it didn't help.

Did anyone else lose there guide data on the SA3100. Last night I had no guide data for any channel.

benspal, yes there's something wrong with channel 13 last few days. This channel used to be on of my strongest signal channel. Seem to be really really weak lately

Originally posted by lvthunder
Did anyone else lose there guide data on the SA3100. Last night I had no guide data for any channel.

I didn't notice any system problems last night. I have seen similar issues when I keep my box on 24/7 for several weeks and it doesn't get a new download and then reboot, especially around the date change at midnight. My spare bedroom box (2100), which doesn't get much use, will act funny and reset after a while.

If anyone else saw green grids or green blocks during CSI last week or noticed other programs displaying that, it appears to be a national network test for DD5.1. I found this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=226669
and chipped in that I noticed here in Vegas too.

vegggas

Info from KVBC...

Expect ATSC standard definition on Channel 2 within weeks. After months of frustration with transmitters, towers, antennas, vendors, and filters, we are close to firing up our digital transmitter. HD will come later, as the selection of equipment needed to get a HD/DD5.1 signal to the top of Black Mountain is still being made.

I've done my best to accelerate getting our HD/DD5.1 signal to Cox via fiberoptics, so subscribers to Cox HD will be able to get NBC HD ASAP.

Originally posted by hoopty
Info from KVBC...

Expect ATSC standard definition on Channel 2 within weeks. After months of frustration with transmitters, towers, antennas, vendors, and filters, we are close to firing up our digital transmitter. HD will come later, as the selection of equipment needed to get a HD/DD5.1 signal to the top of Black Mountain is still being made.

I've done my best to accelerate getting our HD/DD5.1 signal to Cox via fiberoptics, so subscribers to Cox HD will be able to get NBC HD ASAP.

Does this mean that COX will get the NBC pass through HD feed from the local station (via fiber), but it will not be transmitted OTA?

vegggas

vegggas,
That's the impression that I got. He added the last part as a fyi, because I had explained that I didn't have access to Cox cable. It seems that they don't yet know how they are going to get the HD signal up to the tower, but can more easily feed it to Cox.

hoopty

That's good news (for those of us with Cox). I was hoping that they could do that.

It's great when a local station is willing to provide the HD signal to the local cable distributor before they can even get it out on the airwaves. I think Phoenix has some issue similar to this too, where the only viewable signal is through cable distribution, not airwaves because of mountains and hills blocking too great of an area.
If some of the lower power and less fortunate (i.e. not as much money to build digital transmitters) stations follow suit, that would be an excellent way to get their product out there to the people sooner and save money at the same time. It seems that downloading and sending out the network HD feeds via fiber to the cable co's would definately be a lot cheaper than doing the same AND adding digital transmitters on top of mountains. All of that equipment is already needed for OTA and most locals are already fed via fiber, so it would only take adding another fiber transmitter at one end and a receiver at the other.
I wonder if the local FOX affiliate will recognize this and do the same?

vegggas

Hey,

Wasn't the Grammy broadcast supposed to be in 5.1? HD looked good, but I never received a 5.1 signal. Or is our CBS affiliate unable to pass a 5.1 signal?

No I talked to the guy over at KLAS and this is what he had to say.

Dear Mr. Cupp, I'm sorry but we will not be airing the Grammy's in Dolby
Digital. We were not on the original rollout list for 5.1 capable receivers
from CBS and are not able to get the other necessary equipment in time for
the broadcast.

I do not have a timeline for 5.1 but I would not expect it before next year.

Jerry

Then I replied back saying that he had earlier said they were ready and here is his reply.

Sorry for the confusion. When CBS said they would be broadcasting in 5.1, I
had made an incorrect assumption that they would be sending us discrete 5.1.
Instead, they will be using a different encoding system for the audio that
distributes the audio to the stations in Dolby E. This system enables two
digital audio channels to carry 8 digital audio channels. The problem is
that there's additional (rather expensive) decoding equipment that needs to
purchase to extract the 8 channels from the two.

Jerry


So it doesn't sound good that we will be getting 5.1 from CBS for a while. At least we aren't missing much. (I read somewhere that the Grammy's is the only thing on the schedule in 5.1 anyways)

Yeah, I did some additional research and Vegas was not included in the roll-out.

I wonder what the next big thing will be in Vegas? NBC? ESPN-HD? HD-Net?

I don't know what would be next, but I bet it's ESPN-HD. It would look good in all of the sports bars and sports books in town. I'm just glad that Cox updated the firmware in the 3100HD. Now when I push guide it starts at the channel I'm on and at the current time. And also the picture doesn't go out on ABCHD when switching from the local stuff to the network stuff. There is still some audio dropouts but it recovers itself without me changing channels. Does anyone know why the cable equipment is so much worse than the Directv equipment? Is it a lack of competition?

As far as the channel guide coming up at the right show/time, (this is what I heard from a source at cox) that was actually a patent issue. Some other company said that thier guide was the first to start at the correct time/channel, claimed a patent, and the cable companies would have to license that ability from them. I guess they finally did. (or the patent issue was resolved and that company didn't get it)

And, as far as the cable equipment sucking, it didn't start to come out nearly as quick as the DTV rollout of HD in what, Fall 98? So, the cable companies have to play catch-up with thier gear. Also, since cable companies normally "rent" you the box, they want the cheapest gear possible if they have to buy 50,000 of them. With Sat TV, people pay $$$ for nice equipment, so there is a demand. For cable, the companies buy it and they want the cheapest stuff possible.

That's my view of the situation.

Trevor_2k

------------------------
Can't wait to be done with college and join the real world again! Especially one with HDTV OTA!!! I miss my CSI in HD!

Yeah but having to play catchup is no excuse as far as I'm concerned. They had just as much time as Directv and Dish had to get this stuff working. The hardware has to be simular. And if they don't want to fork out all the cash just let the customers buy it like a cable modem. That will enspire competition since a standard is set and it will drive down prices and we will have more features. It will also allow me to get away from the rental fee. (I hate those.)

As for the patent issue if someone is allowed to patent that what can't you patent.

Originally posted by trevor_2k
As far as the channel guide coming up at the right show/time, (this is what I heard from a source at cox) that was actually a patent issue. Some other company said that thier guide was the first to start at the correct time/channel, claimed a patent, and the cable companies would have to license that ability from them. I guess they finally did. (or the patent issue was resolved and that company didn't get it)

Yes, it was a patent issue. Gemstar pattented putting a grid on TV with tv shows in it, starting at the current time. Thus cox and others without the guts to stand up to gemstar start their guides hours ahead to sidestep the pantent. Last year, gemstar had their patent thrown out, since it was more or less, patenting a digital TV Guide.

Echostar (dish network) stood up to gemstar, and won.

Originally posted by lvthunder
Yeah but having to play catchup is no excuse as far as I'm concerned. They had just as much time as Directv and Dish had to get this stuff working. The hardware has to be simular. And if they don't want to fork out all the cash just let the customers buy it like a cable modem. That will enspire competition since a standard is set and it will drive down prices and we will have more features. It will also allow me to get away from the rental fee. (I hate those.)

As for the patent issue if someone is allowed to patent that what can't you patent.
AS always, the cable co doesn't make or create the hardware, they are only the customer. The companies like Motorola, Scientific Atlanta, Jerrold and Pioneer make it. It is up to them to market their products to retail outlets to get them directly to the customer. Until something becomes a standard, like the DOCIS cable modem, nobody wants to manufacture it in high volumes. I was a tester for Time Warner in Tampa in the mid 90's for some of the first cable modems. They were called the Sega Channel RF modems and broadcast Sega games to your local Genesis console. The technology was eventually passed up and people were left holding the modems with no use because there was no software to drive them and 56k dialup came around for a cheaper price. The problem that I have seen is that a lot of the non-major cable box makers made bigger profits retrofitting chipsets to create descramblers for analog use, instead of pushing digital technologies.
Also, there are several markets where makers now sell cable boxes through Best Buy or Circuit City and can get an appointment for service in the same store. This is great news, considering the standards for multiple digital cable services were set only about six weeks ago, whereas the sat monopoly was created and established around 1993(?).
For local news, though, Cox LV has an open invitation for Scientific Atlanta and Pioneer to approve the use of and adopt whichever one shows them an HD PVR first. Interestingly, the box (non PVR) that I saw, had inputs for passthrough to the TV, but the documentation said nothing about upconversion. We shall see soon enough, but this is one common sat feature I would really like to see.

vegggas

I tried to watch the grammys last night but I couldn't get a good signal above 25. This has never happened before. I usually get a strong signal from them (75-85). Anyone else have this problem?

An HD-PVR is the next big thing that would make me happy. Tivo is not really a great option for digital cable (and it doesn't do HD, yet).

I still haven't received a response to any email I send to Cox asking to be a beta tester. How do you get on that list!?!

And why did it take the cable industry so long to set the standard. I don't know. I just think that the sat stuff is by far better and if I had a choice to get local HD channels from someone other than the cable company I would. I wish the FCC would pass a law that says if your local affiliate doesn't pass thru the Digital Network feed (like Fox and WB) or if you cannot receive that signal OTA than the sat companies could sell you an out of market feed for these channels. Until that happens or I decide to get Canadian Sat service I'm stuck with Cox and their inferior equipment.

Originally posted by Tallen234
An HD-PVR is the next big thing that would make me happy. Tivo is not really a great option for digital cable (and it doesn't do HD, yet).

I still haven't received a response to any email I send to Cox asking to be a beta tester. How do you get on that list!?!

There is only one COX market in america that is beta testing digi cable PVRs, Gainsville FL i believe. Dont expect HD PVRs from Cox for a while. Tivo/DirecTV and Echostar are coming out with HD PVRs (that can even record OTA digital content). Tivo will probably have a stand alone HD PVR later this year, or early next year.

Originally posted by doormat
There is only one COX market in america that is beta testing digi cable PVRs, Gainsville FL i believe.
Absolutely correct!
Originally posted by doormat
Dont expect HD PVRs from Cox for a while. Tivo/DirecTV and Echostar are coming out with HD PVRs (that can even record OTA digital content). Tivo will probably have a stand alone HD PVR later this year, or early next year. [/B]
Products based on Tivo and Replay will be out very soon. Most, if not all of the sat technology is based on Tivo, and that can be used for standalone PVR's (with new digital tuners) now with the cable standards adopted for subscription descrambling as soon as the chipsets are made. Motorola, Pioneer and SA are all testing products strictly for cable usage, with Replay as a base product, but pushing toward their own software, such as what we currently use here in Vegas.
As far as PVR functionality in Vegas, March 31'st is the public launch of EOD with selected recordings available at any time through your current digital cable box. No word on if any HD content will be added to the library. Technically it seems possible, but would require a lot of space on the main servers and potentially eat all the bandwidth allocated for that service.

vegggas

Just the Directv stuff is TiVo. Dish Network makes its on PVR product with there own (not as good) software. I don't think having Video on Demand is as good as having a PVR. With VOD you get what they want you to get. With a PVR you get to pick.

Yeah, DTV went with the Tivo liscening, but that is all it is. There may be some exclusive rights DTV worked out with Tivo to prohibit the same technology from being used with other sat companies. I was just miffed that when I was using sat, I coudn't use the PVR for local channels, so I went with Replay to record sat, cable, and off VCR or DVD - anything at any time and have stuck with them since.
EOD is not a replacment for PVR, just that is is known as the next technology in use in Vegas. If you do want to watch that show you missed, it may be available later on EOD.

vegggas

Does anyone know how to "update" the firmware in the 3100HD? I called Cox tech support and they were clueless. I explained that some people have the 3100HD and they get the current channel and time when the guide button is pressed. I spoke with the Assistant Tech Manager who knew nothing about it.

Go figure...

Toby

Have you tried unplugging the box then plugging it back in. I had to do this for it to work. If you want I can forward the email I got from Cox saying they upgraded all of the firmware in the 3100HD boxes last Friday.

Please forward it to: maldoman@lvcm.com

Thanks!

Toby

I was browsing through the junk mail that comes in the cable bill and noticed that COX is listing NBC Channel 733 and FOX Channel 734.
The lineup is supposed to change March 1st, but I wonder if those two stations will be live at that time cause it only says "coming soon". We saw earlier that NBC was going to offer their HD feed via fiber before it goes OTA, but FOX already has a tower up.
Since FOX is also now going to be displayed via cable, I wonder how good the OTA signal is (somebody talk)? Are they doing the 480p widscreen, or is it just an upconverted and zoomed 4x3 like ABC when they are not in HD mode?

vegggas

Originally posted by lvthunder
Have you tried unplugging the box then plugging it back in. I had to do this for it to work. If you want I can forward the email I got from Cox saying they upgraded all of the firmware in the 3100HD boxes last Friday.
Typical reboot and redownload for SA boxes is to remove power, push and hold the power button, restore power, watch display to repeat once and release. Then wait about 2 minutes while it gets the data while you watch the explorer screen.
I don't think all the hubs are upgraded yet. I know my hub is being upgraded next month, and I still have the old guide starting at channel 1. I have reset all of my different boxes; Explorer 2000, 2100, and 3100 and nothing new yet on any of them.

vegggas

On the digital station it is just a 480i 4X3 image. I wrote Fox and they said that the equipment they needed to buy to do the Fox Widescreen is not currently in there budget.

I wonder if they will be doing the same as NBC and just passing the national widescreen feed to COX? That would be easier to budget than full facilities. It's unusual for COX to list something in their lineup without a plan, so I guess we will wait and see again...

vegggas

What kind different equipment is needed to send 480p OTA (when they are already broadcasting 480i) versus sending it fiber to Cox?

They need to recieve the national feed in it's native format and send that out via fiber. That part is easy. Low power, just requires a capable decoder and a passthrough to COX (in basic terms) which they should already have.
To Broadcast OTA with high power is harder. They have to have the above equipment plus the progressive mixing equipment. Everything down the line has to be able to handle the higher frequencies- meaning a complete upgrade to the entire signal path. Then they have to transmit the entire signal in it's new and separate form, from the station to the tower (NBC's problem too). I think most have to pull a new fiber line for digital transmission, wheras with analog, they can usually modulate over the air to the tower and then demodulate at the tower itself. They may be doing this with the 480i signal just to have a "digitial" station per the FCC request or piggy-backing the current analog transmitter by adding a digital transmitter to the existing signal.

vegggas

You would think if they are going to do digital they wouldn't buy anything that wouldn't be able to handle 480p. In fact if I were in there place I would want something that could handle 1080i and/or 720p so that when Fox switches (which I think they will eventually) they will be ready for it.