Originally posted by Larry Hutchinson
Was that a pun? :) No, actually. In fact, sitting here this morning still needing a second cup of coffee I had to really think about it to figure out what you were getting at. Then all the sudden it hit me... :o.

Well, I didn't hear any kazoos when I checked in to 6-1 last night, but the static/phase problem seems to remain unfortunately :(. I flipped into Judging Amy to check it during the 10:00 hour and the sound appeared to be centered without the all-channel-stereo effect. But then I think that show may not be 5.1 to begin with anyway? At least the kazoos are gone...

ron

I agree with you Ron but the phase / center / all channel-stereo effect seems to be present even on the local feed. I watched Judging Amy then the first part of the news. The center channel wandering was present even during the news. so I guess we're not "out of the woods" but doing much better than before.

Either they've got transmission problems again, or they just forgot to flip the switch, but either way… the call is placed, lets see if KATU manages to fix it before the next commercial break.

EDIT: Well, I decided to give KATU another call just to see if the news desk had heard anything… sure enough, "Umm… there's a problem with it." *shrug* Odd, since Desperate Housewives went off without a hitch. What is it about Wednesday nights?

…speaking of specific nights, my Tuesday "can't get sh*t from UPN" night started up again last week. *shrug*

When I can't get "Lost" in HD, I watch "Smallville" instead. (Not that KATU gives a damn...)

That's the beauty of a dual-tuner PVR… the choice becomes "among" instead of "between."

Thanks for working on this Lee. I check Y&R this a.m. and didn't hear the kazoo band, but I can honestly say I had never experienced the problem before with Y&R, of course I had never watched Y&R prior to this morning either.

I will be happy not to have to switch to the "Spanish" sound track to watch CBS shows in the future!

Why, KATU, why? Why must you destroy Lost every single week? Are you forcing us to buy the DVD's when they come out for some reason?

It's a small difference, I guess, but when I watch an HD show live I usually leave the tuner where it is, even during commercial breaks. When I watch a show I've recorded, I always skip all the breaks. So my point was, KWBP got me to watch their commercials tonight, while KATU did not, because "Lost" was in SD so I recorded it instead of "Smallville". (Like I said, not that KATU gives a damn...)

And I fully intended to watch "Alias", even in SD, but during the opening titles I switched to "Kevin Hill" and the picture was so gorgeous I never went back. The funny thing is, I didn't bother to record "Alias" and I don't feel like I missed anything. I think the new season has mostly sucked, although I realize the ratings are up because it now follows "Lost".

Not only are the broken tweeter/kazoo band sounds fixed on KOIN but I watched CSI:NY tonight and thought it sounded pretty good as well, even though it is sent out in 5.1 and we hear it using Pro Logic II.

While I can hear faint dialog in the left/right channels the center channel does accentuate the dialog on my set-up. I'm using digital coax to connect my receiver but I'm not sure that should matter.

As to KATU, I've still not heard back from Alan but it seems little progress is being made on that front.

Earl

Yep, I actually watched CSI: NY for the first time in ages last night. It was great. The cast and crew have gotten into a groove now and the show seems to be hitting it's stride. There was a little bleed from the center but all in all it sounded much better than before when the center was all but non existent and the vast majority of the dialog came from the surrounds. As soon as they went away from the net feed though it all went back down hill.

Having to watch LOST in murky zoom/crop SD is sacrilegious...

ron

I have last night's Alias in SD on disk but I think I'm just going to wipe it out. I squinted my way through Lost because even KATU can't ruin one of the best shows on TV.

I was surprised how the SD feed doesn't just have less resolution. It also has much less color information. The foilage in the jungle scenes in HD have a wide range of green tones but on the SD feed I could only see three of them: "light green", "not so light green", and "I think it's green but it's too dark to tell". I figured the SD feed was something approaching DVD quality but that's sure not the case.

Well, DirecTV will not be giving Portland local HD in the first round so it will be some time if you are seeking a alternative to OTA and Comcast. The cities they are giving it to are:
New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston, San Francisco, Dallas, Washington D.C., Atlanta, Detroit, Houston and Tampa

So is CBS also going to stiff DirecTV when they try to get the HD feed or do already pay the local channels for their signal?

Richard, I started watching Alias and just couldn't get into it with the SD feed and since I recorded it, I switched to something else that was HD. I can always watch a recorded SD at my leisure, why bother suffering through the commercials if I don't have to?

Here is the response email I got from Alan at KATU regarding the SD transmition of Lost/Alias last night:


Last nights episode of Lost and Alias were not aired in HD due to a local RF interference source, causing break-up in video every 7 to 10 seconds. I identified the interferring source last night with a special analyzer, found out how it was possibly getting into the receiver, and believe it has now been fixed.

The issue only showed up at night. All of ABC's daytime testing is flawless.

Alan Batdorf

Maybe someone locally has one of those Toshiba HDTV's that emits the emergency beacon frequency or something like that. LOL.

Christ I thought I was going cray last night. Glad is wasn't just me.

I finally watched the episode of CSI: Bikini that's been sitting on my disk for a few days. Well, I tried to watch the first few minutes anyway. By God it did sound awful, like RealAudio on a bad dialup connection. I thought you guys were exaggerating. :eek:

So I'm having trouble receiving a consistant signal. Mostly on KOIN but I have noticed it on other's as well. My signal strength is anywhere from mid 75-90 but then all of a sudden it drops to zero for a breef second and screws up my HDTivo recordings. I just tried the silver sensor antenna since I thought maybe I was having multi-path issues but even though the signal strength went up there is still momentary interuptions in the signal. I live in Hillsboro. Any thoughts?

Did KOIN give us the SAP (descriptive audio) track by default tonight during CSI or did my DVR pick the wrong track to record?

Would your DVR "pick" an audio track to record? I would think it would just record the whole bitstream, then let you sort it out when you play it back. I've seen some PC recordings that were that way, recorded every subchannel even.

CSI's sound level was not consistent last night as for SAP track...???

Originally posted by Moorebid
Would your DVR "pick" an audio track to record? I would think it would just record the whole bitstream, then let you sort it out when you play it back.
I'm using an open source DVR that's still in development. Someone suggested that it could optinally save some space by only saving the "main" audio stream and throwing the rest away. I was testing that feature last night when it saved the SAP audio for CSI. I need to know whether it's a bug or just KOIN working around the audio problems by sending the SAP audio as the main audio stream.

I got the same thing from CSI last night that has been happening ever since the 5.1 feeds began (the all channel stereo type result for PLII amps). Now I'm thinking the good result from CSI: NY on Wed was simply because it wasn't a 5.1 ep to begin with. Looks like we got our hopes up a little prematurely there :(.

ron

Originally posted by flapbreaker
So I'm having trouble receiving a consistant signal. Mostly on KOIN but I have noticed it on other's as well. My signal strength is anywhere from mid 75-90 but then all of a sudden it drops to zero for a breef second and screws up my HDTivo recordings. I just tried the silver sensor antenna since I thought maybe I was having multi-path issues but even though the signal strength went up there is still momentary interuptions in the signal. I live in Hillsboro. Any thoughts?

Use an outdoor antenna. A Channel Master 4221/3021 is cheap, unobtrusive, and should work great from most places in Hillsboro. I've recommended it to people living in the area, with good results.

Originally posted by R11
I got the same thing from CSI last night that has been happening ever since the 5.1 feeds began (the all channel stereo type result for PLII amps). Now I'm thinking the good result from CSI: NY on Wed was simply because it wasn't a 5.1 ep to begin with. Looks like we got our hopes up a little prematurely there :(.

ron I've been in contact with CBS again. As I believed, CBS is making the Stereo/ProLogic signal as a down-mix of the original 5.1 soundtrack. They are double checking the settings on the Pacific Network Dolby Encoder.

Would viewers with problems receiving proper sound distribution during CSI, Numb3rs and other programs produced in 5.1 sound please send me information on what equipment they are using? Also, if you have tried different modes (mono, stereo, ProLogic-I, ProLogic-II) what were the results? I'm trying to collect as much information from the field as possible to see if the problem can be found.

Thanks,
Lee
lwood@koin.com (send in the spambots)

Originally posted by R11
I got the same thing from CSI last night that has been happening ever since the 5.1 feeds began (the all channel stereo type result for PLII amps). Now I'm thinking the good result from CSI: NY on Wed was simply because it wasn't a 5.1 ep to begin with. Looks like we got our hopes up a little prematurely there :(.

ron
Ron, same here. The big difference now is that we know it can work correctly, so there's still hope. :)
We'll get another chance tonight with Numb3rs.

scowl, it must have been on your end. My only issue was with the PL/PLII.


Earl

Originally posted by earletp
scowl, it must have been on your end. My only issue was with the PL/PLII. Great, now I'll have something to work on this weekend! :)

Originally posted by Lee Wood
I've been in contact with CBS again. As I believed, CBS is making the Stereo/ProLogic signal as a down-mix of the original 5.1 soundtrack. They are double checking the settings on the Pacific Network Dolby Encoder.

Would viewers with problems receiving proper sound distribution during CSI, Numb3rs and other programs produced in 5.1 sound please send me information on what equipment they are using? Also, if you have tried different modes (mono, stereo, ProLogic-I, ProLogic-II) what were the results? I'm trying to collect as much information from the field as possible to see if the problem can be found.

Thanks,
Lee
lwood@koin.com (send in the spambots) So Lee, is there any kind of listing anywhere that shows which shows/episodes are actually being sent from CBS net in 5.1 now? From what Bob Ross said a while back it seemed it was hit and miss, here and there. That's why I figured the CSI: NY on Wednesday must not have been a 5.1 down-mix because it sounded pretty good ;).

ron

Originally posted by BarryO
Use an outdoor antenna. A Channel Master 4221/3021 is cheap, unobtrusive, and should work great from most places in Hillsboro. I've recommended it to people living in the area, with good results.


I've been told that the HD Tivo is very sensitive to strong signals (seems strange) and if you live within 10 miles or so you should try and attenuator. So since their cheap I'm going to try that first. Then the channel master. Thanks for the tip.

KPTV's DD5.1 is sounding real good on todays NASCAR race. :D

Earl

Originally posted by R11
So Lee, is there any kind of listing anywhere that shows which shows/episodes are actually being sent from CBS net in 5.1 now? From what Bob Ross said a while back it seemed it was hit and miss, here and there. That's why I figured the CSI: NY on Wednesday must not have been a 5.1 down-mix because it sounded pretty good ;).

ron CBS 5.1 is still developing on a show-by-show basis. At this time the three CSIs, Numb3rs and King of Queens are 5.1 (though reruns of older CSIs usually are not) and occasional Sunday Movies. Most HD sports is also 5.1, but not all. NCAA Playoffs HD is supposed to be all 5.1. We are often told the day before that a show is 5.1, as with King of Queens this week. CBS does not indicate on their web site if a show is 5.1 either.

KATU is out of it, NYPD Blue is on and they're Broadcasting the left & right channel of the 5.1 mix. NO DIALOGUE!

I just can't believe no one at their shop switches over and checks the HD side during one of ABCs highest rated programs.

Arrrgh ...

Doesn't bode well for LOST and Alias tomorrow night either....

Originally posted by LARUE
KATU is out of it, NYPD Blue is on and they're Broadcasting the left & right channel of the 5.1 mix. NO DIALOGUE!

I just can't believe no one at their shop switches over and checks the HD side during one of ABCs highest rated programs.

Arrrgh ...
I think that problem was a network feed issue. Commercials and local spots worked fine, it was just the center channel of the NYPD broadcast that was out. It was entertaining to realize how well the dialogue is separate from the rest of the show but that quickly switched to frustration as time when on. It does let you know how much the center channel carries the show and how important a high quality center channel is to the overall performance of the AV system.

Has anyone noticed the bad mix job of American idle? Great video and audio quality but it seams the center channel is not mixed correctly so all the sound comes from the left and right channels...

Originally posted by glz
I think that problem was a network feed issue. Commercials and local spots worked fine, it was just the center channel of the NYPD broadcast that was out. It was entertaining to realize how well the dialogue is separate from the rest of the show but that quickly switched to frustration as time when on. It does let you know how much the center channel carries the show and how important a high quality center channel is to the overall performance of the AV system.

Has anyone noticed the bad mix job of American idle? Great video and audio quality but it seams the center channel is not mixed correctly so all the sound comes from the left and right channels...

NYPD DD 5.1 audio was perfect last night on KOMO-DT in Seattle (sister to KATU BTW), so I don't think the network feed was an issue. It took KOMO a LONG time to get their audio issues resolved--I hope they stay that way. Perhaps the KATU tech folks need to talk with their counterparts in Seattle.

I noticed the same audio mess on American Idol. The B&W intro's from the auditions were center channel only, which tells me the capability was there to push audio to the center channel. The host and performer audio was coming from L+R+C for me. They could/should have done much better.

Originally posted by Budget_HT
I noticed the same audio mess on American Idol. The B&W intro's from the auditions were center channel only, which tells me the capability was there to push audio to the center channel. The host and performer audio was coming from L+R+C for me. They could/should have done much better.
Same here, I don't get how the engineering people don't notice these problems...

Come on KATU. Wednesday prime time is almost here. Lost. Aliias. In HD.

We're counting on you.

An FYI, TitanTV now gives listings for both of KOPB's digital feeds.

No worries for you Alias fans. KATU got back to me:

"Our encoder got into an improper mode, don't know how it got there.. it won't happen again. Sorry about the screw-up."

~Alan Batdorf

What's interesting is that although LOST was perfectly fine, later on when CSI came on and I bailed on it because of the now-usual all channel stereo, I flipped the channels and whatever that show is that ABC has on at 10:00 was coming in the same way. Normally their programming is fine but it switches to the all channel mode during commercials only for me... At that point I just decided to take my eyeballs outside for a tub and to view the awesome nearly full moon instead. With the wind keeping the sky's crystal clear it was putting out some major candelas last night. I just love shadows at night.

ron

Ron, good to know some of us know how to do more than just watch TV

Originally posted by R11
With the wind keeping the sky's crystal clear it was putting out some major candelas last night. I just love shadows at night.
ron

uh, ok Moon Unit!

glz, well, I am a bit of a TV watchin' fool so I do spend way too many hours on the couch. I have to admit, sometimes I kinda look forward to the repeat season just so I can get more stuff done and feel less guilty ;). It has been a great week for anything outdoors though. We're back into the top-down driving season really early this year too so I've thought up a few longer distance lunch time errands just to get out and cruise around in the mid day warmth. And it won't be much longer before I'm gonna have to charge up the battery on the old Honda so I can resume the two-wheeled Friday commutes again. I just like being outdoors and since I spend all week long sitting indoors behind a computer I try to take every opportunity I can get out in the open air.

ron

Greetings all,

Just stopping by to inform everyone that we think we've finally cleaned up the last of the issues with our PSIP generator today and we're back to transmitting a full program guide, full dynamic PSIP, etc. on KPTV-DT (12.1) and KPDX-DT (49.1)

While we were in the middle of updating software this morning, however, we got hit with the W32/Sdbot-VN virus while (we think) the PSIP generator was pulling files off of an unsecured vendor FTP site via browser-based FTP. This is a new virus that our virus protection system didn't have a definition for until this morning. The virus clobbered a couple of system files in the PSIP generator before we knew that it was there. We thought the virus was our main problem, but it turned out that a PSIP file translation config file had been changed back several months ago and we think that's what's been causing our unstable PSIP since roughly Christmas.

At any rate, all is back up and operating with the latest PSIP software from our vendor and we should be seeing the PSIP settle down in to soemthimg more reliable now.

That said, the PSIP generator is based on Windows 2000, so who knows?

We'll continue to keep a close eye on PSIP over the next couple of weeks. Thanks to the folks that have been keeping us up to date about what their particular STB's have been doing.

Have a good day.
Ed

Good luck Ed, and thank you for keeping us informed.
Now get out and enjoy the sunshine this weekend, the rain returns next week.

Earl

PS. I'm looking forward to NASCAR in HD and DD5.1 on Sunday, so don't stray too far. hahaha!! :D

I didn't notice any PSIP problems with KPTV or KPDX. They have the best guides in town, usually the next two weeks of programming.

I know this is an OTA HD forum. I am hoping that others here have Directv SD channels as well. Over the past week I have been having periodic pixelization and drop outs. My OTA HD receiption has been great, but I also have SD locals through directv for some of my non HD TV. Anyone else have trouble with Directv lately?

In a word, no.

Only one glitch that I noticed in the past week.

However, when I had a similar problem several years ago, it was easily fixed by realigning the antenna; It was of just a bit.

Other possible causes:
- check all connections and make sure they are tight
- check for any new obstructions in your line of site - perhaps new foliage, trees, etc

Mike

I have DirecTV with local service. Everything has been consistently great (No pixelization or tiling at all).

Originally posted by cmk
I know this is an OTA HD forum. I am hoping that others here have Directv SD channels as well. Over the past week I have been having periodic pixelization and drop outs. My OTA HD receiption has been great, but I also have SD locals through directv for some of my non HD TV. Anyone else have trouble with Directv lately?


Yeah, I've been having the same problems in terms of pixelation, but w/o the dropouts. I'm wondering if perhaps my HD Tivo hard drive was failing, but it also happens during live TV and I've noticed it happen on the standard Direct Tivo in the bedroom. Everything was fine until this past Monday.

Just so you know, when you view Live TV on Tivo, you are still actually seeing it off the hard drive. Even live TV is delayed about 1 second long enough to record it on the hard drive and then play it back. This is how Tivo gives you the ability to pause live TV. The Live is a bit of a misnomer.

Is it just me or is KATU funo signaling up the Academy Awards?

I keep losing the signal, both OTA and on Comno signalst cable.

Son of a Bno signalch!

No dropouts here.

Fine OTA reception on top of Cooper Mountain in Beaverton.

Mike

OTA picture is great here (Bethany/W Portland area) but 5.1 audio seems to cycle on and off a few times after each commercial break.

KATU's audio drops for 8 seconds when they cut from a local commercial insert back to the network feed. It's been doing this for quite some time now and Alan is aware of it. I would hope there was a way for them to rearrange the commercial inserts so a local would not be always be just in front of returning to the network.

My Dish 6000 still gives me audio but it is garbled or warbley (is that a word?) and my Voom stb drops the audio.

Looks like the last set of commercials and return to the Awards show played fine on my Dish Network DVR 921 with local OTA. I wonder if a lot of these problems are system specific due to all the lack of standards?

Ed,

Could this explain why my RCA DCT100 would totally hang anytime I tried to tune into one of these channels last night? It worked fine on other channels, but as soon as I tuned to either 30 or 48 I'd get a full-blown hang that could only by fixed by unplugging -- even the on/off switch wouldn't work. Since I watch via a ReplayTV running WIRNS it took me quite a while to isolate the problem to the RCA tuner. It would be nice if I could blame this on something other than my hardware.

Thanks in advance,

Mike

Originally posted by edwardewilliams
Greetings all,

Just stopping by to inform everyone that we think we've finally cleaned up the last of the issues with our PSIP generator today and we're back to transmitting a full program guide, full dynamic PSIP, etc. on KPTV-DT (12.1) and KPDX-DT (49.1)

While we were in the middle of updating software this morning, however, we got hit with the W32/Sdbot-VN virus while (we think) the PSIP generator was pulling files off of an unsecured vendor FTP site via browser-based FTP. This is a new virus that our virus protection system didn't have a definition for until this morning. The virus clobbered a couple of system files in the PSIP generator before we knew that it was there. We thought the virus was our main problem, but it turned out that a PSIP file translation config file had been changed back several months ago and we think that's what's been causing our unstable PSIP since roughly Christmas.

At any rate, all is back up and operating with the latest PSIP software from our vendor and we should be seeing the PSIP settle down in to soemthimg more reliable now.

That said, the PSIP generator is based on Windows 2000, so who knows?

We'll continue to keep a close eye on PSIP over the next couple of weeks. Thanks to the folks that have been keeping us up to date about what their particular STB's have been doing.

Have a good day.
Ed

I observered no problems at all with the Academy Awards.

But then we zipped through all commercials and the thank-you speeches.

I know this is an OTA HD forum. I am hoping that others here have Directv SD channels as well. Over the past week I have been having periodic pixelization and drop outs. My OTA HD receiption has been great, but I also have SD locals through directv for some of my non HD TV. Anyone else have trouble with Directv lately? Yeah, I've been having the same problems in terms of pixelation, but w/o the dropouts. I'm wondering if perhaps my HD Tivo hard drive was failing, but it also happens during live TV and I've noticed it happen on the standard Direct Tivo in the bedroom. Everything was fine until this past Monday. Me too -- just the pixelization, but not the drop-outs. I've got the Samsung SIR-S4040R DirecTV DVR, so no HD (for now), and I get good signal strength (low 90s) for both satellites. And for me, it's only been for the last 1-2 weeks as well. So I'm glad, I guess, that I'm not the only one -- it gives me hope that the problem isn't on my end.

Originally posted by NeedsWork
Ed,

Could this explain why my RCA DCT100 would totally hang anytime I tried to tune into one of these channels last night? It worked fine on other channels, but as soon as I tuned to either 30 or 48 I'd get a full-blown hang that could only by fixed by unplugging -- even the on/off switch wouldn't work. Since I watch via a ReplayTV running WIRNS it took me quite a while to isolate the problem to the RCA tuner. It would be nice if I could blame this on something other than my hardware.

Thanks in advance,

Mike

In short, yes. The DCT100's appear to be very, very sensitive to messed up PSIP - which is by all means what we were transmitting from Tuesday afternoon through Friday noontime, 2/22-2/25.

We had been using the DCT100's as studio monitors here for both 12.1 and 49.1, but we found that they were far too sensitive to any glitch in the system to make them effecive troubleshooting tools. They've been retired to secondary uses and our primary off-air monitor receivers are now LG's - they at least SHOW us when we're missing part of the program guide, channel designation, etc. instead of just going dead and blank like the RCA's did.

Ed

Originally posted by edwardewilliams
That said, the PSIP generator is based on Windows 2000, so who knows?
Just a suggestion... You should seriously consider updating that machine to Win2k3 Server or WinXP Pro, and keep it updated with the latest security patches from MS. At some point (if not already), MS will begin to de-prioritize their security patches for Win2k.

Suggest you also check into your antivirus software's update schedule, maybe you need hourly updates instead of daily updates.

Originally posted by HTBruceM
Just a suggestion... You should seriously consider updating that machine to Win2k3 Server or WinXP Pro, and keep it updated with the latest security patches from MS. At some point (if not already), MS will begin to de-prioritize their security patches for Win2k.

Suggest you also check into your antivirus software's update schedule, maybe you need hourly updates instead of daily updates.

As a Windows admin, I would hope the admin on site is smart enough to keep the PSIP server (and similar service machines) fairly isolated on the network, all unnecessary services turned off, and above all, beat anyone dumb enough to use the machine for web browsing with a 4x4 (2x4's are reserved for simple printer problems). Windows 2000 is still very active in the community and won't start to finally die off quickly until at least a year after Longhorn is released due to corporate standards.

Security of a system is always more dependent on the sysadmin's knowlege, skills, and intelligence than the software.

And I'm typing this reply from a Mac, so don't go calling me a Windows freak :)

That said I wouldn't be surprised if the PSIP box is a "black box" type configuration, so they may have no control over the OS. I've used similar NT4 and 2K boxes. That can be very frustrating to an admin due to the lack of control, but all the more reason to keep it isolated from anything it doesn't need to talk to.

As usual, Ed, thanks for the great work, always appreciated.

dev*

Funny how in the "Guy at the Switch" thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=513844&perpage=20&pagenumber=1) people were talking about how FOX has the least fallible HD/SD switching system for affiliates yet tonight after KPTV's local commercials we get 20 minutes of '24' in good old SD.

Originally posted by scowl
Funny how in the "Guy at the Switch" thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=513844&perpage=20&pagenumber=1) people were talking about how FOX has the least fallible HD/SD switching system for affiliates yet tonight after KPTV's local commercials we get 20 minutes of '24' in good old SD.
It was funny, Fox's upconvert looked so good, I didn't even notice until the FOX logo was there, staring me in the face then I noticed it was 4:3.

Regarding the Oscars, I recorded it and there were still sound drops at the local commercial cuts back to the network.

Ed,

I got home from work after 24 had started tonight and my DCT100 was hung again. I had to unplug it to wake it up. I ended up missing the first 10 minutes of the show. : - (

Was PSIP working the way it's supposed to tonight? I'm worried that maybe my receiver hangs when things are working correctly, rather than incorrectly.

Mike

Originally posted by Marissadad
It was funny, Fox's upconvert looked so good, I didn't even notice until the FOX logo was there, staring me in the face then I noticed it was 4:3 I think I've read that FOX's SD feed is more integrated with their HD feed (they converted to a digital SD feed before other networks) so it's more of a crop and downconversion of the HD feed while other networks' SD feed is more separate. I thought FOX was even planning on eventually eliminating their separate SD feed completely, making their affiliates get their SD by cropping and downconverting the HD feed themselves but others told me I was mistaken about that.

Regarding the DCT100, I seem to recall from the days when I used one that you could fix PSIP problems by turning off something or other in the setup menus. Then you have to enter KOIN-DT as 40-1 rather than 6-1.

This was needed years ago due to KOPB-DT problems.

Don't know for a fact that it will help the current issues but it might be worth a try.

Thanks, I'll hunt through the menu system to see if there's anything that might be helpful. I'm using the DCT100 with a ReplayTV that wasn't designed for OTA digital (no ability to enter sub-channel numbers). Still, you can enter the UHF main channel number and it will default to the first available sub-channel -- which is invariably the one you want anyway. I don't know if this is standard behavior for other tuners or not. My fear is that 'fixing' PSIP on these two channels has 'broken' my tuner in which case the only options are watch in analog (Yuck!) or by a new tuner. I would've thought that this wouldn't be 'bleeding edge' by now. Of course, the best solution to my problem is that they can 'fix' the fix at the broadcast end.

Mike

Larry, Ed and all:

A quick update... I turned off "acquire broadcast program guide" in the setup menu for my DCT100. That's not the exact name, but it's close enough. The system declared it needed to do a complete channel search after the change. It took a while, but when it finally completed I was able to tune to both 48 and 30 without hanging. Thanks for the suggestion.

Everything seems to be working OK now. The only difference is that it lists the channel numbers as what they "really" are... not what they're "pretending to be", e.g. 6-1 is now 46-3. FWIW, I suspect that the "fix" to PSIP is what caused my problems. Once again, thank you Larry. I didn't even remember that setting was there.

Ed,

I'd like to pursue this further, time permitting. If there's something you'd like me to test on my end, just let me know.

Mike

Originally posted by NeedsWork
Larry, Ed and all:

A quick update... I turned off "acquire broadcast program guide" in the setup menu for my DCT100. That's not the exact name, but it's close enough. The system declared it needed to do a complete channel search after the change. It took a while, but when it finally completed I was able to tune to both 48 and 30 without hanging. Thanks for the suggestion.

Everything seems to be working OK now. The only difference is that it lists the channel numbers as what they "really" are... not what they're "pretending to be", e.g. 6-1 is now 46-3. FWIW, I suspect that the "fix" to PSIP is what caused my problems. Once again, thank you Larry. I didn't even remember that setting was there.

Ed,

I'd like to pursue this further, time permitting. If there's something you'd like me to test on my end, just let me know.

Mike

Mike, have you tried contacting RCA to see if they have a firmware update or something that addresses PSIP problems?

Earl

Earl,

I hadn't thought of that, but that's an excellent idea. Thanks for the suggestion.

Mike

Originally posted by NeedsWork
Earl,

I hadn't thought of that, but that's an excellent idea. Thanks for the suggestion.

Mike The latest version of DTC-100 formware is A05.10 dated 09/20/01. (Menu / Assistance / Upgrades / Past Upgrade) there has not and will not be anything later than that. However, all versions had excellent PSIP support. We had three different versions over time and had no problems with any of them PSIP related that did not originate with our signal.

About 8 PM tonight KATU-DT audio started breaking up stuttering. signal strength is normal and shows Dolby 5.1, earlier in the evening it sounded OK.

Is anybody else having the same problem?

nater

YES, It was really bad. I couldn't stand it...

Send an email to Alan Batdorf at KATU (abatdorf@katu.com) and let him know your experiences. I didn't watch any KATU last night but I did get the following note from him earlier in the day:

" I believe have resolved the missing / dropping out audio issue and matched audio levels, according to Comcast techs who were listening.


Alan"

So the perception from his vantage is it's all fixed. We need to keep letting our locals know what we are seeing/hearing so they can properly troubleshoot these issues. Even though he mentions Comcast, my experiences have been observed equally on Comcast HD and OTA, and he knows that.

Bob

Hi folks,

Sorry I don't drop in here all that often. Motorcycling weather's been way, way, way too good lately. :)

I wanted to take a moment between meetings here today and send out some information regarding the Fox and UPN high def feeds that we pass through the stations here in Portland and how they're switched and so forth - I see that there's been some recent interest on that topic here.

First, the simple system - UPN. UPN, being part of Viacom/CBS sends us our HD network signal the very same way its sent to all the CBS affiliates - via a dedicated HDTV satellite reciever. We simply take the HD-SDI video and AES audio signals from that receiver, and switch them through a small 8x8 Pesa HD router to air. The other side of that switch is, as you know, the local 4:3 upconvert from 49's Master Control output.

On the Fox side, things are a bit more complex, yet simpler - if that makes any sense.

Fox has installed a system at each HD affiliate based on a Teryon bit splicer - it's actually a collection of 6 different devices, but the Teryon box is at the heart of the main action. This means that instead of us switching a baseband HD-SDI video and AES audio feed with a routing switcher, we actually send a GPI command to the splicer, which dynamically inserts the network MPEG data (as a DVB/ASI stream) in to our locally generated ATSC stream. The whole works then goes back to one of our boxes which converts the stream from ASI to SMPTE-310M, adds the local PSIP and sends it off to the transmitter via fiber with a microwave backup. All this additional processing is why you'l notice a markedly longer delay on 12.1 versus 12 than you will on 49.1 versus 49 - there's a LOT of digital buffering going on.

In the Fox Splicer, as you've noticed, there are two graphics inserters. One is designed to hold the "bug" - the lower right corner "FOX 12" graphic and the other is meant to hold a legal station ID (KPTV-DT, Portland.) Since we ID both our analog and digital stations in the analog upconverted stream, we haven't yet implimented the HD legal ID int he Fox Splicer.

The network controls the insertion of the bug, while we control the insertion of the legal ID and all of the splices between local and net. Fox also has control of all of those functions as well, but isn't supposed to use them, leaving local conrol to the local station.

Occasionally, after the network has inserted the local bug, they forget to remove it at the end of a night's broadcast. This causes the "FOX 12" HD bug to show up in the pillar-box section of our local 4:3 broadcast. We're getting better about getting our MCO's to notice that it's still up outside network and to manually remove it if necessary.

Other than the basic GPI functions of "Splice to local", "Splice to Net", "Logo keyer 1 (on and off)" and "logo keyer 2 (on and off)" we have no other local control over the Fox Splicer - other than to completely bypass it in the event of a problem.

By the way, EIA-708 captions are converted directly from the EIA-608 captions in the analog input video ot the HD upconverters. We still transmit both the 608 and 708 captions so both older and STB's and TV's can see the captions.

The HD upconverters are made by Evertz in Canada. In testing, we found them to be the cleanest and sharpest upconverters on the market for our needs. All of KPTV's material is upconverted to 720p and all of KPDX's to 1080i in order to match Fox and UPN respectively.

My next step is to install a local Dolby 5.1 encoder so we don't "lose" the center channel when going to local from Net.

Also, if you folks have questions about our signals and such, please feel free to e-mail me directly at ed.williams@meredith.com - as you've noticed, I don't get by this board very often, so if you'd like an answer to something, a direct e-mail may get you a quicker response than only posting here.

Everyone have a great day!

Ed

Thanks Ed for the detailed rundown and all your support. You're right about this weather. I really have to get out in the garage and pop the seat and side cover off my old Shadow so I can charge the battery and get out and do some riding too! :).

ron

Yes, excellent synopsis. I'd only have one comment regarding the bug on Fox, and I'm sure you've heard this numerous times already… is it possible to adjust its brightness and/or translucency locally? Or would that require network intervention?

Either way, it definately needs to be dropped a few notches for the long haul. Watching too much "Fox12" will definately burn that into our CRT projection TV's in a relatively short period of time with its static nature, especially on 4:3 content (black background, bright white text, and me without a screen saver on my DVR… *shrug*). Something closer to the way the UPN bug looks on network HD broadcasts would be preferable.

Hi Ed, I appreciate all of your hard work on the HD, they look fantastic. I only have one gripe and that is the FOX Bug, it is too bright. Though it is small, I have a 110" screen and it is pure, bright white and is very glaring when watching a show. Is there any possibility you may be considering making it translucent?

Thanks,

Darrell

Count me as another vote against the way too bright white "FOX 12" bug. It's got to be made more subtle rather than the constant irritant it is now. I think the ABC logo is good - it's always there if you look at it, but it's fairly easy to ignore while you watch a program. At least tone it down to a more soothing gray.

And speaking of KATU, I cheered when we made it through "Alias" tonight without any audio switching problems - in fact, it seemed there was no switching from 5.1 to 2.0 at all! Sweet! (...and "Alias" is starting to get interesting again... yay!)

I didn't stay with Alias last night but did watch the LOST rerun on KATU (via Comcast) - sorry, I know this is the OTA thread but the audio problem was on both sources. I was happy that there were no drops in local to network transitions, the volume was steady and it all made for a seemless presentation. Looks like Alan got it fixed! Thanks, Alan.

It was the third replay of Lost so I didn't watch it but I didn't have any problems with Alias, Thanks Alan!! :)

I'd like to see the FOX12 bug more transparent too, but it is still way better than the original giant FOX logo that was there when they first turned on HD.

Earl

Maybe a new Interactive TV feature could be a multiple choice question that comes us and asks the viewer what channel they are currently watching. Then, if they get the correct answer, they can earn the right to have the station ID Bug turned off for their viewing for longer and longer periods as long as they keep giving good answers.

Here it is. The NCAA Playoff Multicast Schedule for Thursday, March 17th and Friday, March 18th.

Because CBS has added HD games this year there will be one HD and one SD game in the early rounds and they will usually be different from what is on the analog channel. We tried to balance viewer interest (many HD games have little regional or competitive interest) and HDTV (would you really rather watch a blowout in HDTV?) in setting the schedule.

THURSDAY, MARCH 17, 2005

9:00 AM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Road to Final Four
9:00 AM KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Road to Final Four
9:00 AM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Road to Final Four

9:25 AM KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Alabama vs. Wisc.-Milwaukee

9:40 AM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Pacific vs. Pittsburgh

9:45 AM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Oklahoma vs. Niagara

11:45 AM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Boston College vs. Pennsylvania

12:00 PM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Washington vs. Montana

12:05 PM KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Utah vs. UTEP


4:00 PM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Road to Final Four
4:00 PM KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Road to Final Four
4:00 PM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Road to Final Four

4:20 PM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Arizona vs. Utah State

4:25 PM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Gonzaga vs. Winthrop
KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Gonzaga vs. Winthrop

6:30 PM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) West Virginia vs. Creighton

6:45 PM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Texas Tech vs. UCLA
KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Texas Tech vs. UCLA


FRIDAY, MARCH 18, 2005

9:00 AM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Road to Final Four
9:00 AM KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Road to Final Four
9:00 AM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Road to Final Four

9:15 AM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Charlotte vs. North Carolina St

9:25 AM KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Florida vs. Ohio

9:30 AM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Minnesota vs. Iowa State

11:35 AM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Connecticut vs. UCF

11:45 AM KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Villanova vs. New Mexico

11:50 AM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Southern Ill. vs. St. Mary's (Cal)


4:00 PM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Road to Final Four
4:00 PM KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Road to Final Four
4:00 PM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Road to Final Four

4:10 PM KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Syracuse vs. Vermont

4:20 PM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Wisconsin vs. Northern Iowa

4:25 PM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Duke vs. Delaware St.

6:30 PM KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Georgia Tech vs. George Washington

6:40 PM KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Kansas vs. Bucknell

6:45 PM KOIN-TV 6 (ANALOG) Stanford vs. Mississippi St

Thanks for posting the schedule, Lee. :)

Yes, thanks a whole bunch. Lee!

So are you saying the locals have an option on what games to show, independent of advertiser wants/requirements on your digital channels? If so, is that because the digital audience is so paltry it doesn't matter to them what you carry on the digital side? I can't wait until we matter!

Originally posted by ridgefamus
So are you saying the locals have an option on what games to show, independent of advertiser wants/requirements on your digital channels? If so, is that because the digital audience is so paltry it doesn't matter to them what you carry on the digital side? That's pretty much it. We can do just about anything with NCAA on the digital channel. They 'assign' the games for the analog channel, but we can argue to change them if we can give a good enough reason. And you early adpoters DO matter! You get to see the multicast for free! Others have to pay for it.

Thanks Lee, aprreciate it. Makes it really easy to find the games that I want to watch.

Originally posted by Lee Wood
And you early adpoters DO matter! You get to see the multicast for free! Others have to pay for it.

I love it when you talk like that!:D

I also love it when you choose to not multicast during important events like the final rounds and The Masters. Keep up the great work - we surely appreciate it.:)

Originally posted by ridgefamus
I also love it when you choose to not multicast during important events like the final rounds and The Masters. Keep up the great work - we surely appreciate it.:) Slyly slipped that in there in a diplomatic way I see ;). So the question is, at what point do the games become important?

ron

More content versus higher PQ, hmm interesting choice but from my readings the lower PQ usually results in more complaining. So all the more reason to say, "Thanks Lee" when he does what you like I suppose.

This is the one event of the year that multicasting really means something. For once stations aren't wasting their subchannels to give you their crummy SD feed or a weather channel or a 24 hour news channel. They're using them to give you three times more of what you want to watch!

Originally posted by hilladen
So all the more reason to say, "Thanks Lee" when he does what you like I suppose. That's exactly what I had intended to do :D.

I really don't watch much KOIN any longer though. Their local programming is so scratchy sounding I gave up on it altogether. Well, I take that back. I will pop into their news at the critical times to try to catch their 7-day weather forecasts (to see how it compares to the other stations), but that's about all I can handle. And their HD broadcasts have been so hit or miss as to whether they have decent audio mix that I've simply moved on to other shows on different stations for the most part.

ron

Does KGW still have problems with the way they output Programming Info???

I receive good (at least 6-8 hours worth) guide info for all of my digital channels except for KGW D8-1 and D8-2. Both of them always are completely blank on my receivers guide (MYHD MDP-120). Anyone else noticing issues with the KGW guide??

Did others get audio drop outs during American Idol last night. It seemed to me that the audio was dropping out like clockwork for about 5 seconds in the second line of each singer's performance. Maybe they were switching the encoding method between announcing and singing performances and it was confusing the encoders or decoders or my ears or whatever. Also it cut out during a particularly rude Simon comment to Constantine, so I turned on the closed captioning and rewond but the closed captioning wasn't working either.

KGW's guide usually works, but it's been down for a few days now.

Originally posted by NoMoShocks
Did others get audio drop outs during American Idol last night. You want me listen to the whole show? I usually click over it in 20 minutes. :)

OK the first problem I found was right when Simon was judging Constantine's performance, 3.5 seconds of audio packets never got sent. There were a few other 3-3.6 second gaps of missing audio packets after that. Ouch!

Just a quick shout out to Lee and his crew at KOIN... The Dance is looking great !!!

I know you're working OT in master control swapping games around and your efforts are much appreciated.

NCAA MULTICAST SCHEDULE FOR SATURDAY, MARCH 19

10:00 AM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Road to Final Four
10:10 AM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Road to Final Four
10:10 AM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Road to Final Four

10:10 AM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Gonzaga vs. Texas Tech
10:10 AM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Gonzaga vs. Texas Tech
10:10 AM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Gonzaga vs. Texas Tech

12:20 PM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Washington vs. Pacific
12:20 PM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Washington vs. Pacific
12:40 PM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Oklahoma vs. Utah

2:30 PM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Boston College. vs. Wisc-Milwaukee
2:40 PM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Illinois vs. Nevada
2:50 PM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Arizona vs. UAB

5:00 PM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Wake Forest vs. W. Virginia
5:10 PM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Kentucky vs. Cincinnati
5:10 PM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Kentucky vs. Cincinnati

Sunday's schedule will be posted Saturday afternoon.

NCAA MULTICAST SCHEDULE FOR SUNDAY, MARCH 20, 2005

9:00 AM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Road to Final Four
9:00 AM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Road to Final Four
9:00 AM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Road to Final Four

9:10 AM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Connecticut vs. North Carolina State
9:10 AM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Connecticut vs. North Carolina State
9:10 AM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Connecticut vs. North Carolina State

11:15 AM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Florida vs. Villanova

11:20 AM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Oklahoma State vs. Southern Illinois

11:30 AM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) North Carolina vs. Iowa State

1:45 PM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Louisville vs. Georgia Tech

1:50 PM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Buchnell vs. Wisconsin

2:00 PM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Duke vs. Miss State

Thanks, Lee. It's been great so far. Love getting to choose among three games (except when CBS preempts). Too bad the Boise site didn't justify HD.

Bob

I had to move my VGA monitor closer to my HDTV because my eyeballs were getting tired trying to watch both ot these great games at the same time.

Ack, when the SD feed switched to the West Virginia vs. Wake Forest game, the HD feed was a half second behind turning my living room into an echo echo echo chamber. :D

As one of about 10 Iowa State fans in Portland, I'd like to petition to get the UNC vs. ISU game moved to a digital sub-channel. The fuzz I'm seeing on analog just won't do :-)

Originally posted by steiny
As one of about 10 Iowa State fans in Portland, I'd like to petition to get the UNC vs. ISU game moved to a digital sub-channel. The fuzz I'm seeing on analog just won't do :-)
Trust me steiny, you don't want to watch basketball on a sub channel. The analog I receive kicks but over a digital sub channel, even on a 110" screen. :D

Anybody been having problems with KPTV 12.1 ota? Last couple of days it's been real bad,although all other local hd is good

Originally posted by justmeandher
Anybody been having problems with KPTV 12.1 ota? Last couple of days it's been real bad,although all other local hd is good
Other than not getting NASCAR switched to HD until well after the start of the race Sunday, I haven't noticed anything. 24 looked good last night too.

What kind of problems are you having?

Earl

Yea Nascar was great when it finally went HD. I'm having lots of pixelation issues right now. It's weird because I've always have had really good picture from KPTV

24 was fine for me last night too.

ron

Originally posted by R11
24 was fine for me last night too.

ron

Just wondering ... I watched 24 via Comcast last night and there were serious lip sync issues for the first 10 minutes or so. Are you saying this wasn't present OTA? I thought the "splicer" thingy that Fox uses was supposed be a foolproof delivery system.

Well, I'm usually pretty susceptible to audio issues and I didn't notice any lip sync problems OTA.

ron

No audio/video sync issues with 24 for me OTA.

The splicer is not foolproof. KPTV gave us several minutes of 24 in SD a few weeks ago after a commercial break.

THE LAST OF THE 2005 NCAA PLAYOFFS MULTICASTS

THURSDAY, MARCH 24, 2005

4:00 PM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Road to Final Four
4:00 PM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Road to Final Four
4:00 PM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Road to Final Four

4:10 PM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Louisville vs. Washington
4:10 PM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Louisville vs. Washington
4:27 PM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Wisconsin-Milwaukee vs. Illinois

6:40 PM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) West Virginia vs. Texas Tech
6:57 PM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Arizona vs. Oklahoma State
6:57 PM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Arizona vs. Oklahoma State


FRIDAY, MARCH 25, 2005

4:00 PM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Road to Final Four
4:00 PM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Road to Final Four
4:00 PM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Road to Final Four

4:10 PM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Michigan State vs. Duke
4:10 PM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Michigan State vs. Duke
4:27 PM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) North Carolina State vs. Wisconsin

6:40 PM KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Utah vs. Kentucky
6:40 PM KOIN-DT 6-1 (HDTV) Utah vs. Kentucky
6:57 PM KOIN-DT 6-2 (SDTV) Villanova vs. North Carolina


The Saturday and Sunday games are all in HDTV.

FWIW

Through this weekend KOIN will have provided a total of 50 games in the NCAA multicast. Including 24 in HDTV, 27 games available only to DTV viewers that were not carried on the analog channel. The analog channel carried a total of 23 games.

Now, on to the Final Four and Championship games in HDTV.


Next up - Four days of 'The Masters' in HDTV on April 7-10. Thursday and Friday HDTV coverage 1 PM to 4 PM (or conclusion), Saturday coverage starting at 12:30 PM and Sunday coverage at 11:30 AM.

Enjoy.

Yeah, nothing's completely foolproof. But in this case it sounds like your beef is with the Big C instead of FOX/KPTV. Does Comcast do DD 5.1 nowdays?

ron

Originally posted by R11
Yeah, nothing's completely foolproof. But in this case it sounds like your beef is with the Big C instead of FOX/KPTV. Does Comcast do DD 5.1 nowdays?

ron

Yes, they do, as long as the local or other feed sends them 5.1. Like for NBC, KGW only sends 2 channel Dolby ProLogic but KATU does pass full 5.1 when they get it from ABC (and it works correctly). The other national HD channels (HBO, INHD, etc.) also send 5.1 that Comcast forwards.

Re NCAA: I often wonder how the East coast deals with 10 p m starts for these things. Thanks for the schedule, Lee.

I too watched 24 via Comcast, from the recording on my 6412 about 2 hours after airtime, and witnessed no such lipsync issues. Everything was copacetic.

Hmmm, I'll have to check the delay time from my eyes to ears tonight. There was someone on the 24 thread who posted just after it aired in the east that he seemed to think there was a sync issue too. Maybe we need to check into the same clinic.

Originally posted by ridgefamus
Hmmm, I'll have to check the delay time from my eyes to ears tonight. There was someone on the 24 thread who posted just after it aired in the east that he seemed to think there was a sync issue too. Maybe we need to check into the same clinic.
You may want to hold off a bit before going to the trouble of having your eyes and ears re-synced. :)
If you check out the Comcast/6412 thread in the HD recorders forum, there seems to be some kind of bug/glitch, that has some complaining, that occasionally causes them lipsync issues. It doesn't seem to be consistant nor does there seem to be a resolution though.

Earl

Originally posted by earletp
check out the Comcast/6412 thread in the HD recorders forum, there seems to be some kind of bug/glitch, that has some complaining, that occasionally causes them lipsync issues.

Earl

Well, it wasn't my intent to hijack this OTA thread with Comcast issues. I'll move it there. I do monitor that 6412 thread, although no so closely the last few weeks as it all seemed to be a rehash.
I'll do a search there. Thanks for the heads up.

What I need to start doing more faithfully is going to the OTA stb to compare that with what I see on Comcast HD. But what a pain when you're really interested in the show. So I take the lazy man's way out and ask others here later on to compare notes. That's the way it was when I started into this HD thing - you never knew if it was you or THEM;) Sometimes that's still the case.

I quit even messing with my equipment if I notice a problem until I check this thread and if there's nothing here, I check the Programming Forum. If it's a national issue there's generally someone that has started a thread there about it.
It's not lazy, it's working smarter. ;)

Oh, and it may sometimes be the case, but most always it's some them or other. :D

Is there possibly someone here that lives in the Beaverton area and uses a HD STB to receive HD/digital Signals OTA? IF so - could you please tell me what Channels you receive and how good is the reception?
I am considering buying an HDTV STB and saving alot of money - possibly.

TKS Michael:confused:

cyberized-

This is the Portland OTA thread. There is no OTA HD available to anyone who lives in Beaverton. (JUST KIDDING) :D:D:D

Please read POST #1.

Reception in Beaverton is determined by your ability to point an antenna toward the towers. If you live in a hole or on the wrong side of a mountain or in a stand of trees or if you live in an apartment that does not have an exposure toward the towers and you do not have line of site to the towers your reception may be less than perfect or even non-existant. If you have a fairly clean line of site to the towers the recption should be perfect after you have screwed around for awhile with antenna selection and placement.

Can you see the towers?

Where are you?

Lew

TKS LewLew - I live right near Hall and Allen in an older Mobile Home - program on Web tells me that our towers are less than 5 miles away. My Mobile Home is metal - when I first moved here I was with DISH and tried saving money for Locals by using indoor and outdoor antennas which were a HASSLE - but have read on here that IF you can get any Digital OTA signal it will be GOOD. I wonder about that though.

TKS Michael:confused:

cyberized: From an earlier post it seemed that you had a line on a low-priced stb. If you can get that and try it out with an indoor antenna like the Silver Sensor and be able to return both if they don't work out, that would be your best bet. You can still go through the trial and error process by getting the equipment at Circuit City or some other retailer that has liberal return policies and if it all works out go back to your source for the stb you have your eye on. The whole OTA ordeal is a true process that takes patience and determination but one worth undertaking if you get good results. Happy testing!

Bob

What a difference in PQ today with KOIN not multicasting on 6-2 vs. Thurs and Fri. I just love it when Lee commits the full Monte to the HD feed. :D Not that I didn't appreciate the choices we had during the earlier rounds. Thanks KOIN and Lee!

Bob

This is so true. It was very apparent on quick pans on players after they made a great shot and were running to the other side of the court. Before, you'd see the player's face break up and the background turning into stripes of blocks. With the full stream today, there were no artifacts at all. It was like watching television again.

Again I have to politely ask "What the heck is that stupid SD subchannel for?" And I'm not going to believe it's for people who need an SD feed because if these people existed, I'm sure they'd want to watch basketball and NFL playoff games when Lee has turned their subchannel off in the past.

scowl, I totally agree. Lee posted way back in the beginning of this thread that some people had TV's that could not zoom/stretch or otherwise alter a HD signal (his TV included, BTW). To this I say, watch the HD channel in SD mode and switch to S-Video and stretch to your heart's content. There is no reason to simulcast the same thing on a sub channel. Then when a true HD show airs, switch back to HD on the stb and change to component. Simple.

cyberized,

I drove by Hall & Allen yesterday. It looks like a good reception area, except for the trees.

If you still have a UHF/VHF antenna left from your last go around I suggest you try it. If not, with due respect to ridgefamus, I recommend the outdoor RS yagi #15-2160 for 24.99 list and the RS variable attenuator #15-0678 9.99 list. This combo provides very good multipath rejection.

I was off yesterday and stopped by CC just to touch everything in the store. They had an open box sir-t451 for 219 marked but would let it go for 199. New in the box 245. They also had three 3410a's for 699 list that they would let go for 600. I had to get out of there fast.

If you need a hand to turn the antenna I live near Cornell & 185th. Just ask.

Lew

I have used KOIN's SD subchannel a few times but only in geeky experiments. A couple of times before trips I saved the SD stream to my laptop while saving the HD stream to my real computer because my laptop doesn't have the horsepower to display HD. I've also occasionally put a CBS football game in the corner of the screen while watching another game fullscreen. The SD feed makes this easier since it takes much less CPU to shrink SD video.

I've also occasionally put a CBS football game in the corner of the screen while watching another game fullscreen. The SD feed makes this easier since it takes much less CPU to shrink SD video.And shrunk down to "corner of the screen" size it probably doesn't look so bad either ;).

Hey Lee W, I also wanted to say thanks for the SD shutdown last weekend. Much, much better PQ and enjoyable BB watching as a result. Thumbs up! I sure wish KOIN would just bite the bullet and get a DD5.1 encoder though. Games Sat sounded OK but on Sunday it was back to the announcers voices in the surrounds :(.

On a related note, did anybody else experience any feed breakups during the Elite 8 games? The PQ was very good but I kept getting periodic breakups that didn't look like regular reception probs, more like network related. But I didn't see any complaints in the HD programming forum and nobody else here mentioned it so I'm just wondering. It was windy/rainy and I am receiving signal through a roof and a large multi-trunked cedar tree that occasionally causes issues when stiff winds cause the trunks to sway back and forth. For some reason it just didn't look like that kind of problem on-screen though...

ron

I had continual breakups on Sat. that I attributed to the wind/rain/trees. I fooled around with my Silver Sensor indoors and hooked into the outdoor RS with little better reception steadiness. What finally solidified the whole thing for me was to use the SS and add my RS variable attenuator to the 10dB attenuator I already have screwed into the input terminal on the back of my stb. So by damping down about 25+dB I had absolutely no problems on Sun. And this was also after having a house full of people milling around between the SS on top of the TV and the West Hills direction - rock solid all day!! So at least on Sunday, I didn't experience your problems.

Originally posted by ridgefamus
I had continual breakups on Sat. that I attributed to the wind/rain/trees. I fooled around with my Silver Sensor indoors and hooked into the outdoor RS with little better reception steadiness. What finally solidified the whole thing for me was to use the SS and add my RS variable attenuator to the 10dB attenuator I already have screwed into the input terminal on the back of my stb. So by damping down about 25+dB I had absolutely no problems on Sun. And this was also after having a house full of people milling around between the SS on top of the TV and the West Hills direction - rock solid all day!! So at least on Sunday, I didn't experience your problems. Thanks Ridge. I figured it was probably the weather. I think that the newer receiver I've had (Sony 300) for the last year and a half is much more solid than the previous Mitsubishi so I very rarely ever experience reception breakups these days. And it appears that when I do, they are not so, uh, colorful :). With the old mits box I would get serious blooming, greenish/yellow blocking.

ron

Noob question: I'm in Portland and have a new HDTV with an OTA receiver. Last night, American Idol was on KPTV-DT, and according to checkhd.com, it should have been in HD. But the display was not 16:9 - it was closer to 4:3.

Is it possible to receive HDTV without 16:9 display format?

Or, was American Idol just a normal digital (non-HD) broadcast?

American Idol was in (16:9) HD last night, maybe you need to make some adjustments to your settings.

If you need some help, just post your set-up, I'm sure one (or several) of us will be glad to do so.

Earl

Originally posted by ridgefamus
I had continual breakups on Sat. that I attributed to the wind/rain/trees. I had break ups last night from the wind over the weekend which moved my antenna. I thought I had tightened those wing nuts! :mad:

Last night, watching Survivor on CBS (channel 6.1), the image appeared to clear, but had side black bars. Once CSI came on, the screen widened and looked amazing.

A couple of times through the broadcast of Survivor, HD appeared above the CBS logo.

Is it possible for a HD broadcast like this to have side black bars? Or, was this a digital SD broadcast? I'm confused...

I didn't watch KOIN last night but I know that Survivor (nor are any of the other "reality" shows, except that Richard Branson thing on Fox, if it's still on) is not presented by CBS in HD so it was likely an SD broadcast. Can't say why the HD was with the logo bug. HD broadcasts will fill your widescreen as CSI did.

Hey guys, does anyone watch the WB? It has looked absolutely horrible the last few nights. There is major macro blocking and pixelating with any movement and it is just horrible. Please post any comments you may have, I've emailed Pat to let him know how bad it is.

The CBS HD bug wipes over their normal CBS logo at the beginning of any program broadcast on their HD feed, regardless of whether or not the source is HD. Also, KOIN has their own HD bug which appears from time to time on their HD channel, again, regardless of the source. It implies nothing more than the content you're watching is currently being broadcast on a 1080i carrier.

Just noticed after going through the OPB schedule in the email I have from them, every program tomorrow (Mon) after 11:00 AM is in high def starting with the Chihuly Over Venice and ending at 11:30 PM with LOW CARB COOKWORX - WHAT'S FOR LUNCH? I think that's a first for continuous HD programming around here.

Way to go OPB!

Bob

Originally posted by Marissadad
Hey guys, does anyone watch the WB? It has looked absolutely horrible the last few nights. There is major macro blocking and pixelating with any movement and it is just horrible. I hate to be the first to complain about KWBP so thanks Marissadad.

Yes, the pixelization has definitely gotten worse somehow. The two Smallville reruns last week had artifacts that I'm sure I would have noticed the first time they were aired. Simple things like someone walking across a scene was always leaving a trail of blocks. I think I even saw a person's lips turning into blocks as they were talking during a closeup. Needless to say, scenes that had any action in them looked like surreal computer art at best. In the past these were the only scenes that showed any real problems. I could even go back through the episodes I've saved and see when things started to go downhill. I think it was OK the week before.

I measured KWBP's bit rate at only 11.52 Mbps tonight. Even the quick pans in the supercool HD Volkswagon Jetta commercial were breaking up. That's not going to make me buy a new car, WB Network!

I've had the same problems with KWBP, any movement in the scene and the picture goes to hell. Definitely makes it hard to want to watch for long.

Earl

Originally posted by scowl
I measured KWBP's bit rate at only 11.52 Mbps tonight.WTF!? They're not multicasting, are they? What possible reason could they have for this?! They better have it fixed in time for new eps…

I've read that some WB stations do not get their HD feed from the 32 Mbps satellite downlink and instead get their feeds via cheaper terrestrial lines.

I grew up in Oregon, moved away 7 years ago, and am now moving back. As I have been reviewing my HDTV options, I noticed that KPTV 12 is now Fox, And Channel 49 is now UPN.

Did I miss something? Growing up, channel 49 was always fox, and channel 12 was always KPTV, and then it affiliated with UPN.

Are Fox and UPN in Portland owned by the same people? Why the switch of broadcast channels?

From Meredith Corporation (http://www.meredith.com)'s "Company History" (http://www.meredith.com/aboutmeredith/history.html) page:

"2002
Portland duopoly completed after transfer of ownership of the Fox-owned-and-operated UPN affiliate in Portland, KPTV-12, to Meredith. Meredith also owns Portland's KPDX-TV, Fox-49. In return, Meredith transferred ownership of its Orlando Fox affiliate, WOFL-TV, Fox-35, and its Ocala-Gainesville affiliate, WOGX-51, to Fox Television Stations."

Shortly afterward, Meredith moved both affiliates into a single facility in Beaverton (wonder what happened to that nice riverfront studio KPTV had?) and swapped networks between the affiliates.

Pat has done a good job with keeping the problems on KWBP to a minimum. Other than the WB's brief stint with DD5.1, while not perfect, they have been pretty stable. I hope the recent issues are not indicative of the continuation of the plan to sell off bandwidth for other uses.

Last night was the first time in a long time that someone at KOIN feel asleep at the switch. While I don't watch it, Joan of Arcadia was in SD when I grazed by, JAG was a mixture of HD and SD (mostly SD) and NUMB3RS I thought started out in HD, but most of it was SD also.

Earl

I saw that too. Numb3rs was in HD for the first two or three minutes, then switched to SD. I don't understand why HD isn't broadcast when it is available. Do stations have to pay more when they broadcast a show in HD as opposed to SD?

When an HD station purposely switches a program to SD, that usually means something unfixable is happening with their HD equipment.

Except for KPDX. I've never seen them air UPN's comedies in HD, I guess because no one watches them.

The key there is "purposely". When a show is HD going into commercials and SD coming out the other side, it does lend itself to the possibility that is it operator error.
We've all seen that enough that many of us have even called in to say, "Hey!! Turn on the HD!!" :D

I forgot to check out the Masters today to see it they were still having problems.

Earl

No problems with the Masters today or the past 2 days on KOIN. It's been splendid, although the PQ suffers just a tad when there is an absence of sunlight.

Not that I really want HD commercials, but does anybody know the reason why commercials all seem to be both pilarboxed and letterboxed? They were obviously shot in 16:9. Is it just because someone has taped them in 4:3 (creates the letterbox) and then replayed them on the HD feed (creates the pillarbox)?

Normally it not worth the network's or the advertiser's trouble of editing and airing two versions of the same commercial.

Nevertheless, Volkwagon and Target have HD commercials.

Why isn't KOIN-TV on Comcast? It must be a money thing!

Long story, there are about 10,000 posts on the subject in this thread and some in the portland comcast HD thread.

Awww, that's not fair. Short story, yes, it's about money. See this report: http://www.backchannelmedia.com/newsletter/story/2182399966/Fee_Fight_Keeps_Portland_OreAr.html

or do your own Google search for Emmis/Comcast/KOIN. Good luck!

After reading the Oregonian article, it would seem to me that KOIN would want as many viewers as possible. One of those HDTV viewers may be a Nielson household. That could be worth thousands of dollars in revenue. It don't understand how Emmis Corp. came to the conclusion that withholding their signal from the marketplace is a good business practice.

Neilsen does not count viewers watching digital television. To them we are not watching what they consider "televsion". Our viewership reduces their advertising revenue if anything.

KOIN isn't withholding their signal from the marketplace. They're just not giving it to everyone for free.

I've been having a recent problem with KGW when it rains and am wondering if anyone else is, too?

When it's dry KGW (8.1) comes in fine, but as soon as it begins raining, I lose the signal completely....but only KGW. All other stations continue to come in perfectly. This just started a few months ago. Did KGW change something recently that could account for this?

I'm in the St. Johns area in North Portland and watching on a LCD rear projection Sony with a built-in HD tuner. I use a regular roof mounted uhf/vhf radio shack type antenae....the same one I used before I got HD. I would think that if this was a hardware related issue that it would happen with all stations.

Thanks.

I'm southwest of the towers and watched the early part of the Blazers game amid hail. rain, etc. and had no problem using my indoor Silver Sensor.

I also checked 8-2 to see if they would simulcast the Evening News at 5:30 rather than the Blazers, but no. Which I think would make sense for them to do if they insist on putting two digital signals into the air. Why make them always the same?? I would think they are receiving the West Coast feed of News even though they choose to show Blazers on analog. Put it out on 8-2 when there is a conflict. That shouldn't violate any contract with the Blazers, IMO.

Does anybody know why The Amazing Race wan't in HD last night? Isn't it supposed to be?

I have a Comcast HD box KOIN doesn't allow Comcast to carry their HD feed. So I went out and bought an OTA receiver just so I could watch CBS in HD, and it turns out that the shows I want are SD on HD feeds. I feel like I've been cheated.

I feel cheated by KOIN and Emmis too - and I don't have an OTA STB!

Originally posted by Ron97015
Does anybody know why The Amazing Race wan't in HD last night? Isn't it supposed to be?

I'm answering my own question. I just called KOIN and was told that none of the reality shows are in HD, including Survivor and Amazing Race. They're not produced in HD, but they're broadcast on an HD feed.

Hi -
I just recently purchased a Panasonic plasma (commercial) so there is no HD tuner present. I'm using Comcast as my provider but since there I no CBS/KOIN available I'm considering setting up equipment to receive OTA broadcasts. What am I going to need and any idea what kind of dollars I'm looking at? Thanks.

- Jim

You need an antenna, an OTA box and cables to hook them up.

The price is $200-$300 depending on what you buy. The WalMart USDigital OTA receiver is $198, and the LG-4200a is about $275 delivered. Another popular one is the Samsung SIR-T451 for around $250.

Go to www.AntennaWeb.org, enter your zip code, and see if you're in an area where you can received OTA Digital stations.

Originally posted by JimOMartin
Hi -
I just recently purchased a Panasonic plasma (commercial) so there is no HD tuner present. I'm using Comcast as my provider but since there I no CBS/KOIN available I'm considering setting up equipment to receive OTA broadcasts. What am I going to need and any idea what kind of dollars I'm looking at? Thanks.

- Jim Jim,
All you need it an off-air DTV receiver and an antenna. I recently purchased an older RCA DTC-100 with the RGB to Component adapter off of eBay for $150 plus shipping. I have an antenna in my attic and it works very well.

Radio Shack also has a new receiver, the Accurian HTS-6000, for $250. If you can get by with an indoor antenna (most cannot) you should try the Zenith Silver Sensor, if you need an outdoor antenna a Channel Master 4221 4-Bay Bow-Tie works very well.

Originally posted by Ron97015
I'm answering my own question. I just called KOIN and was told that none of the reality shows are in HD, including Survivor and Amazing Race. They're not produced in HD, but they're broadcast on an HD feed.

Ron: The feed is digital and not all programming sent out on the digital feeds is presented in HD. Some pure HD feeds are those from HDNET (on DirecTV) or INHD, INHD2 and Discovery Theater HD (on Comcast). Even those sometimes will rebroadcast older programs in a stretched SD, but at least you always get your widescreen filled. :D None of the networks currently send all HD.

It's still early in the HD game and get prepared to enjoy the HD you can get rather than feel cheated because it's not always HD.

Bob

Things are sort of improving on KWBP. The bitrate increased to 13.48 Mbps tonight so my thanks to whoever made that possible. The zappo lightening effects during Smallville didn't pixelate any more than they did before.

However, there is this one odd thing. Unless you've carefully adjusted the overscan on your display, you probably didn't notice that, for reasons I can't fathom, something is removing 48 horizontal pixels from the right side of the screen.

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/smallsmallville.jpg

KWBP is giving us 1872x1080 images with the right margin blacked out.

This is probably not visible on most displays due to overscan, but what the heck is up with this? That can't be saving a whole lot of bits!

All that I have read suggests that 1440x1080i is what most broadcasters are actually sending out. (not counting 720p broadcasters) How are you measuring the 1872 lines? Or are you merely subtracting 48 from 1920?

I'm still looking for reasonably priced gadgets to detect this sort of stuff.

It's very easy. I took a raw dump of the one of the MPEG 1920x1088 images and measured the length of the lines up to the black border in an image editor. These lines are 1872 pixels long leaving a 48 pixel black border on the right. No other broadcaster is doing this. Of course there are also 8 black lines on the bottom since MPEG works with 16x16 blocks but every broadcaster does that.

The video that broadcasters are sending may have an effective resolution of 1440x1080 but they're sending them in regular 1920x1080 resolution. They're not doing any MPEG anamorphic trickery like how Fox Widescreen was giving us 720x480 images stretched to 852x480 on their SD feed.

Wonder who's using the broadcast flag in our area?

KOPB and KGW have the flag turned on all the time. KPTV has the flag turned off all the time. The rest (KWBP, KATU, KOIN and KPDX) are not sending the flag at all.

I've scanned some recent popular shows that I'm guessing a network would want to protect but the stations haven't been changing the flag for these shows, at least not yet. I've scanned the last few episodes of 24 and the flag was turned off on all of them. All of Law & Order episodes had it turned on. None of the CSI or Lost episodes in the past month have the flag specified. It looks like the station always has the flag is turned on or turned off or it's not there.

scowl,

It's easy to understand that "no flag" means don't worry and "flag off" could have more than one meaning but probably means "we have our finger on the switch". Just what does "flag on" actually do to or for us?

Scowl,

You're talking about the Re-Transmission Control Descriptor, right? The anti-piracy copy protection system?

I thought that only receivers built within the last six months or so were able to process those signals and that older ones wouldn't work with it. I didn't know any stations were actually using it yet. Does this mean we may have to replace our receivers or lose our signals?

Gary

Originally posted by lewlew
It's easy to understand that "no flag" means don't worry and "flag off" could have more than one meaning but probably means "we have our finger on the switch". Just what does "flag on" actually do to or for us? Nothing that I'm aware of at this point unless some D-VHS recorders are aware of this flag.

Of course I'm tempted to think that "flag off" means "redistribution legal, go for it!" but I'm pretty sure it doesn't really mean that! ;)

Originally posted by garstan
You're talking about the Re-Transmission Control Descriptor, right? The anti-piracy copy protection system?
Yes. It's exact name is "Redistribution Control Descriptor".
I thought that only receivers built within the last six months or so were able to process those signals and that older ones wouldn't work with it.
It's not a signal. It's just one of many tags stations are sending us.
I didn't know any stations were actually using it yet.
I didn't either until I checked!
Does this mean we may have to replace our receivers or lose our signals?
Does your receiver have any problems with KGW or KOPB right now? If not then you're OK. They already have the broadcast flag turned on all the time.

Here is my understanding of broadcast flag:
- July 1st, 2005:
--- receivers/recorders manufactured after this date must honor the flag; restricting recording as the flag indicates
--- receivers/recorders manufacturerd before that date are not obligated to use the flag; for example, I have a receiver - EyeTV - that permits recording, and does not honor the flag. I expect that I will be able to record HD broadcasts for some time to come (until it breaks)

Some manufacturers will continue to sell existing inventory that was manufactured before July 1, 2005, permitting recording regardless of flag setting.

Mike

Has anyone had problems with 2-1 lately. I have had audio problems during Good Morning America. Also last night during Blind Justice I had a lot of picture problems. All other ststions were ok. The audio problem in the morning has been going on for over a week. Have they reduced power?

I watched about 10 minutes of Blind Justice from 10:05-10:15 without a burp.

The only prob I have with 2-1 is that since they "fixed" their audio probs a few weeks back, their stream now seems to be flagged 5.1 full time now. With my PLII receiver that results in the dialog being spread through the surrounds unless I manually go in and switch it to PCM stereo mode. They at least used to switch it on only during 5.1 shows and back off again afterwards.

ron

Gah! KWBP missed the HD switch back from commercial about :29 into Smallville, and we have no number to call! Egads!

Fortunately, this is the first occurance of this I ever witnessed from them, hopefully it doesn't become a trend.

EDIT: Unfortunately, they still haven't caught on after the second commercial break. *shrug*

will a Wingard Square shooter antenna work for Portland
I'm on Sauvie Island so I have the West Hills to my back.

I currently use a set top unit from Rat shack
Its got the convex UHf waffle and VHF rabbit ears
I get the best reception when the Convex portion is resting againts the Back Cabinet portion of my 34"XBR.
So the waffle portion is facing down and the bottom is sitting vertical.

Originally posted by Moorebid
Gah! KWBP missed the HD switch back from commercial about :29 into Smallville, and we have no number to call! Egads! Oh crap. This is a huge pain in the butt for those of us archiving the show in HD (and I'll purchase the DVD collection the day it's available too).

I'm still annoyed that KPTV forgot to flip the switch for 15 minutes of 24 a few weeks ago. You will never ever see an episode of 24 in HD again after it's been broadcast once. At least WB reruns Smallville during the summer.

Well, never ever is a long time… meanwhile, HD-DVD/Blu-Ray's should be on the market by the end of the year. Emphasis on "should"… but even if it gets delayed a bit *crosses fingers for a unified format or at least a player that can handle both at the outset*, I'm sure you'll see HD releases of these series, with even better quality than what we're seeing now (24 in 1080p for one, not to mention better bitrate/codec than ~11mbps MPEG-2).

I had some audio hiccups and quite a few quick breakups during Alias last night and my DVR had the show flagged as not recorded due to digital content protection during Lost but the show is there. I record this every week and this was a first. It could be a glitch as I've had it happen before with Blue's Clues OTA on the analog channel.

I got periodic little snatches of video breakup on Eyes at 10:00 on 2-1 as well (along with the audio dropouts). Maybe ten years from now we'll be able to enjoy problem free HD/DTV :(.

ron

Originally posted by Moorebid
I'm sure you'll see HD releases of these series, with even better quality than what we're seeing now (24 in 1080p for one, not to mention better bitrate/codec than ~11mbps MPEG-2). I doubt Fox will be releasing 24 on HD media for the next five years if ever. If they do, it will be plenty expensive. And the series is so grainy, more resolution will probably make it look even worse.

Originally posted by scowl
I doubt Fox will be releasing 24 on HD media for the next five years if ever. If they do, it will be plenty expensive.Why wouldn't they? It's just another way for them to milk some more money out of that DVD cash cow. It wouldn't be any more expensive to produce than SD-DVD's as the episodes are already mastered in HD; if anything it'd be simpler - no downconversion process. Of course, that doesn't mean they won't charge more for them, the same premium they'll be charging for features I imagine… "Oh, it's a niche product!" Any excuse… but that'll only last so long.

No, I see the transition happening a lot more quickly, if for no other reason than to seal the sieve that is CSS encryption. DVD's leak content like it's going out of style (which it is), HD-DVD/Blu-Ray would give the studios at least a couple more years of control. That is, ultimately, what they want.

And the series is so grainy, more resolution will probably make it look even worse.More resolution never makes anything look worse, it just doesn't necessarily help it to look better. If the source is a 480i/60 field per second video tape, upsampling to 1080i is still going to look bad. If, however, the source is 35mm film - grainy though it may be - more resolution can still help. Sure, the grain will be more defined, but so will the picture. Remember, 35mm film still has considerably more resolution than 1920*1080 can resolve. We still have a ways to go.

But they'll continue to make DVD's so not only will content continue to leak through CSS, now they'll have another potential hole to plug up. For TV series it isn't even plugged since anyone with a legal ATSC card can yank stuff right off the air.

More resolution reveals more grain. You can smooth out grain at lower resolutions but that will look blurry in HD (I've done it). 35mm still photos have more resolution than HD but 3 perf motion picture film, the stuff that series are shot on now, uses less than half of the film area of a still photo. Some 35mm motion picture film does have more resolution than HD but only if you use it properly. I wouldn't include the medium speed 35mm they shoot miles of for 24 in that category. It's rarely pushing the limits of HD resolution and doesn't look very good in SD either. Even 16mm series like Veronica Mars are less grainy since they're using low speed film and exposing it carefully.

Originally posted by scowl
But they'll continue to make DVD's so not only will content continue to leak through CSS, now they'll have another potential hole to plug up.And they'll do their damndest to make sure that hole never gets unplugged. But DVD's a lost cause, they're never putting that genie back in the bottle, so who cares what content leaks out there? Might as well try to obsolete it as quickly as possible, make everyone want (and be willing to pay for) the new format, then watch the money flow in.

On the other hand, they're still making money hand-over-fist from SD-DVD despite the leak, so why bother upsetting that apple cart? Thus the niche pricing at the outset. It worked for VHS and Laserdisc for years.

For TV series it isn't even plugged since anyone with a legal ATSC card can yank stuff right off the air.Legal until July 1st, anyway… and that assumes you're content with half-bitrate, half-definition HD (which I'm not). *shrug* Sorry, but ATSC is a lost cause for me when it comes to quality. As long as multicasting exists, such will always be the case (assuming some 13th-hour shift to MPEG-4/AVC in the standard takes place… do you see me holding my breath?). I'm not even going to touch what passes for HD from the likes of DirecTV…

More resolution reveals more grain. You can smooth out grain at lower resolutions but that will look blurry in HD (I've done it).I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I actually like the grain… especially if I know the show is grainy, and I can't see the grain (usually due to overcompression and/or downressing), I know something's wrong. Watching a show like Alias with KATU's 18.3mbps and seeing every spec of it faithfully reproduced (even at 720p) sets my heart aflutter. I know it's ass-backwards, but I see it akin to "audiophiles" who prefer vinyl LP's to CD's… maybe it's a sentimental thing, maybe their ears are better than mine (well, that's not saying much), but it would seem to be a similar principle. I really can't relate on that level, but when it comes to the visual medium, I'll take film over video any time, grain and all.

35mm still photos have more resolution than HD but 3 perf motion picture film, the stuff that series are shot on now, uses less than half of the film area of a still photo.I didn't know that… still, if a full-frame 35mm can handle 4k scanning, surely half a frame could handle 2k, which is still twice that of 1080p.

*shrug* For what's the other half of the film used?

Some 35mm motion picture film does have more resolution than HD but only if you use it properly. I wouldn't include the medium speed 35mm they shoot miles of for 24 in that category. It's rarely pushing the limits of HD resolution and doesn't look very good in SD either.Just because it doesn't look "good" doesn't mean there isn't something there to be captured. If it's there, I want to see it. Besides, I would argue it doesn't necessarily look "bad," certainly not nearly as bad in 720p as it did with Fox's half-assed anamorphic 480i. Surely it must have enough resolution for 1080p, else why would they master to it?

If for no other reason, though, I would argue the case for HD over SD just for the reduction of visible scan lines. I'd rather see all the imperfections than have them glossed over with downconversion and/or interlacing. It's already in 1080p, release it as such.

Even 16mm series like Veronica Mars are less grainy since they're using low speed film and exposing it carefully.Indeed. Veronica Mars is a perfect example of a show which can look gorgeous, despite its technical limitations.

Most people don't have the equipment or knowledge to effectively record these shows. More over most people are lazy and would rather just by a season then take the time to record the show each week and then compile them. So there is plenty of money to be made out there still.

Originally posted by Moorebid
On the other hand, they're still making money hand-over-fist from SD-DVD despite the leak, so why bother upsetting that apple cart? Thus the niche pricing at the outset. It worked for VHS and Laserdisc for years.
That's what I'm thinking. I mean they're still releasing major movies on VHS for crying out loud. Things don't change fast.
Legal until July 1st, anyway�
No, it will still be legal to record stuff. This will only restrict the manufacturing of ATSC cards if it happens.
and that assumes you're content with half-bitrate, half-definition HD (which I'm not). *shrug* Sorry, but ATSC is a lost cause for me when it comes to quality.
If I had any evidence that more bits would give me better quality, I'd totally agree with you. I don't know of too many people with 1080p sets in their living rooms so the market will be pretty small.
I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I actually like the grain�
They tell you in old photography books to "use" the grain and "learn to love" the grain. You had to because back then you had no choice!
especially if I know the show is grainy, and I can't see the grain (usually due to overcompression and/or downressing), I know something's wrong. Watching a show like Alias with KATU's 18.3mbps and seeing every spec of it faithfully reproduced (even at 720p) sets my heart aflutter.
When I watch Alias, I want to see Jennifer Garner, not some artificial hail storm she's walking through because they didn't bring enough lighting that day. When I see those things, I think "Damn, I thought Kodak stopped making that crappy Vision 800T that was only to be used in desperate situations. Oh, wait. Kodak claims that push-processing Vision2 500T a stop will give better results. Man, can't these guys point a flashlight at Jennifer so they wouldn't have to do this? Of course not. This is television. No one will care."
I really can't relate on that level, but when it comes to the visual medium, I'll take film over video any time, grain and all.
Oh I'll take good film over video, definitely. Take a look at Lost. All the cave (set) scenes and many dark jungle scenes are shot with Kodak Vision2 500T, just like 24. Do you see any grain? No, because they know the limiations of the film and carefully avoid them.

And take a look at Kevin Hill shot in 24 fps HD. Look anywhere in any shot. Do you see grain dancing around in the shadows? Nope, because they're using that medium carefully too. It's all about knowing how to make clean images, and wanting to.
I didn't know that� still, if a full-frame 35mm can handle 4k scanning, surely half a frame could handle 2k, which is still twice that of 1080p.
When they do 2k or 4k scanning, they're usually sampling the grain structure of the film so it will still look like grainy film when it comes out of the digital process and is printed back on film. They can also do more advanced digital processing when they have more resolution to work with.
*shrug* For what's the other half of the film used?
The other half will be used for the next frame. Remember that still cameras expose images horizontally over seven perferations of 35mm film. The film moves from left to right. Motion picture cameras move the film from top to bottom 2, 3, or 4 perforations for every frame so the maximum horizontal width of an image is the width of the film. The vertical height of the image on film will then be the length of 2, 3, or 4 perforations of film, however many the camera is set to advance the film. 3 is the most common since that gives you a 16:9 image and it uses less film than 4. So you're exposing an image on less than one half the film area that a still camera would have used. It's about half the resolution of 35mm still photography at best.
Just because it doesn't look "good" doesn't mean there isn't something there to be captured. If it's there, I want to see it.
Well, if you like grain then you'll sure see more of that! :)
Besides, I would argue it doesn't necessarily look "bad," certainly not nearly as bad in 720p as it did with Fox's half-assed anamorphic 480i.
I think it's been a trade-off. There is certainly more detail and things look sharper but I'm pretty disappointed. They're not too concerned about making the series look good in HD but then producing a TV series involves a lot of important things.
Surely it must have enough resolution for 1080p, else why would they master to it?
The future. From what I've read, 1080p is believed to be a very future-proof format to post to. Someday 24 might be in HD syndication or be broadcast on HD channels in Europe or who knows what. It's easy enough to downconvert 1080p to 720p, or 480p, or 525i or whatever you want. It's very difficult to upconvert 720p to 1080p and make it look good, especially when the original looks awful to begin with.
If for no other reason, though, I would argue the case for HD over SD just for the reduction of visible scan lines. I'd rather see all the imperfections than have them glossed over with downconversion and/or interlacing. It's already in 1080p, release it as such.
You'll probably find that if 24 is ever released on 1080p, they will have digitally processed the original 1080p to remove all these imperfections you're looking forward to. After all, people won't want to pay big bucks to buy a TV series in HD so they can see even more five pixel grains dancing all over their expensive 1080p screens. They'll want to see something that looks better.
Indeed. Veronica Mars is a perfect example of a show which can look gorgeous, despite its technical limitations.
And it's all about caring how your series will look when you're shooting it. In 16mm it's tempting to shoot lots of medium close shots with lots of depth of field because that's what the format encourages you to do. Instead they're shooting lots of scenes with very wide fast lenses, forcing it to look like it's shot on 35mm. I see them working around the limitations in every show. For example, they can't get around the barrel distortion that wide 16mm lenses have. Notice how their wide shots are almost always static? That's because barrel distortion looks even worse when you pan (you get a swimming effect). So they just don't do that. :)

Originally posted by scowl
That's what I'm thinking. I mean they're still releasing major movies on VHS for crying out loud. Things don't change fast.Well, there's fast, then there's fast. When DVD was first released, it too commanded a premium. I still remember when the "Miramax Collector'S SerieS" of Clerks was released for $40! You'd think it was the laserdisc or something… then, shortly after release, Buy.com put it on sale for $5. *snicker* Gotta love those dot-com-boom days… but that's what helped DVD's acceptance become fast, a lot of free (or close-to-free) DVD's flooding the market, not to mention the pent-up demand for something better than VHS. No, I don't think HD-DVD's transition will be anywhere near that fast, but I also don't think they're going to wait 5 years to start releasing material. They have the content ready for the format, they have a secured medium, and they have a demand (people like me, few as they are, who don't buy DVD's anymore because they're not HD). It's just extra money in their pockets. Might as well gouge us while they can, rather than wait until it barely fetches bottom-of-the-barrel prices.

No, it will still be legal to record stuff. This will only restrict the manufacturing of ATSC cards if it happens.That's to what I was referring. And unfortunately for me, an ATSC recorder is not sufficient for my purposes, I would also want to be able to record encrypted HD QAM. Unfortunately, such a beast will not exist prior to July 1st.

If I had any evidence that more bits would give me better quality, I'd totally agree with you.o.0 Have you watched KGW lately? KOIN? KWBP? Any of them? Ever? *?* This comment confounds me, because I know you have. You've posted screen shots!

Compare HDNet's Smallville to KWBP's and tell me more bits don't give you better quality.

I don't know of too many people with 1080p sets in their living rooms so the market will be pretty small.It's coming on strong over the next year, with both DLP and LCD 1080p sets on or near the market now, plasma… well, they're out there somewhere. In less than 5 years time, that's all you'll see on store shelves.

Regardless of that, though, the format will be 1080p, it'll be up to the consumer whether or not they want to be able to view it as such (and I do… I'll be getting a Dell 2405FPW as soon as it hits $700).

They tell you in old photography books to "use" the grain and "learn to love" the grain. You had to because back then you had no choice!Heh, I never personally went through that (not that old), but I can certainly relate. Analogous to that - I think - are those who prefer black & white to color. All the nonsense IMO about focusing more on the image, less on the color… please… if anything, lack of color detaches me from the image, it doesn't draw me into it. Yes, ok, for an effect, it works, but… seriously, I can't stand watching old movies for just this reason. (and, usually, they're poorly acted with horrible plots and… *shudder* ugg, I just hate them.)

When I watch Alias, I want to see Jennifer Garner, not some artificial hail storm she's walking through because they didn't bring enough lighting that day. When I see those things, I think "Damn, I thought Kodak stopped making that crappy Vision 800T that was only to be used in desperate situations. Oh, wait. Kodak claims that push-processing Vision2 500T a stop will give better results. Man, can't these guys point a flashlight at Jennifer so they wouldn't have to do this? Of course not. This is television. No one will care."I think this falls more under the category of artistic license rather than careless photography. I may say "I like grain" and mean, "I'd like to see it if it's there, not try to avoid seeing it by filtering it through Vaseline," but when they say, "We like grain," they really-really like it. As much as you may dislike it, it does give it that certain "theatrical" look; if anything, it makes it seem less like television. It's a purely psychological reaction, I know, but… just like black & white… just like vinyl LP's… :)

It's a gritty show, it's shot in a gritty way. Same with 24.

Oh I'll take good film over video, definitely. Take a look at Lost. All the cave (set) scenes and many dark jungle scenes are shot with Kodak Vision2 500T, just like 24. Do you see any grain? No, because they know the limiations of the film and carefully avoid them.Again, artistic license. They could shoot it just as grainy as Alias if they want (same production company, similar production values outside the choice of film exposure), but they don't… they gave it its own look (natural - if oversaturated - color, clean & clear look, very… "tropical") if for no other reason than to differentiate it, to make it look less like everything else out there.

The same is true for any other piece of "art." Look at House… watch the pilot of the show, notice anything about people's skin tones? They're all orange! There was even a patient who came with some medical disorder that made him orange (I think he drank too much carrot juice :)), but we couldn't tell because everyone else looked just like him. I don't know if that was supposed to be an in-joke or what, but regardless… it didn't work, so they've scaled it back.

But it also exemplifies something about television I don't like… like you say about Alias, they didn't bring enough light. Well, with House, I think they bring too much. Too often in the series, I'm distracted by the use of light; too often, it looks unnatural, like the light seems to be coming from nowhere, or whatever source from which it should be coming shouldn't be either that bright or that full. It makes it look… like television, like a soap opera. Desperate Housewives suffers the same effect to an even greater degree, but then it is a soap opera. That's why I much prefer shows like Alias and Lost, it appears much more natural to me. (Yes, the cave scenes have some questionable lighting as well, but at least I don't immediately think, "Oh, that's shot on a set" when I see it.)

And take a look at Kevin Hill shot in 24 fps HD. Look anywhere in any shot. Do you see grain dancing around in the shadows? Nope, because they're using that medium carefully too. It's all about knowing how to make clean images, and wanting to.But you sacrifice "natural motion" (for wont of a better term) for a cleaner image. HD video's motion blur (or lack thereof) just doesn't look natural, or "like film." It's an effect which I can spot anytime; it stands out like a sore thumb, I really don't care much for it. With the exception of what Michael Mann has accomplished with it (Robbery Homicide Division, Collateral), giving that its own unique look (almost looking like it was shot 1080p/30, and also excessively grainy), I am definately not a fan, and I think filmmakers like Robert Rodriguez suffer from its use.

But… it is just television.

Well, if you like grain then you'll sure see more of that! :)Again, it's not as much that I like it, but that I'd rather see it than not if it's there in the source. Avoiding grain is not an excuse to avoid HD.

I think it's been a trade-off. There is certainly more detail and things look sharper but I'm pretty disappointed. They're not too concerned about making the series look good in HD but then producing a TV series involves a lot of important things.P'shaw, what trade-off? It looks better in every respect, in color saturation, in clarity, in lack of interlacing! My main complaint with it now is the overcompression from Fox.

It's very difficult to upconvert 720p to 1080p and make it look good, especially when the original looks awful to begin with.I bet you really hated the look of Minority Report… :) Seriously, I think you're complaining more about their choice of style rather than the quality of the production. I think that's a common misconception with consumers about HD (not to exclude blame from the marketeers). HD by its nature does not instrinsically imply cleaner, clearer, "more 3D" images. It's just what it stands for… "high definition." More pixels. Yes, you can get cleaner, clearer, "more 3D" images from the format, but that's only as a result of having more pixels. You're still going to see people shoot movies like 28 Days Later which intentionally look like sh*t, get transferred to HD and still look like sh*t, because that's the way they want it to look. HD's not going to change that, nothing's going to change that. You can't stop an artist from being an arsetist.

(For the record, I really didn't like the look of 28 Days Later… DV is worse than black & white.)

You'll probably find that if 24 is ever released on 1080p, they will have digitally processed the original 1080p to remove all these imperfections you're looking forward to. After all, people won't want to pay big bucks to buy a TV series in HD so they can see even more five pixel grains dancing all over their expensive 1080p screens. They'll want to see something that looks better.You could be right… that will truly tell whether the choice was one of style or of laziness. Either that, or it proves the taste of who has control over the appearance of the product at the time of its release… I don't think Brian Grazer would be the type to do that, removing grain is almost akin to coloring black & white to these people, so unless someone else decides to exercise control over the project…

Take a look at the DVD's of The X-Files… now if you want to see grain way out of control… that's what I'd call going too far, that looks excessively bad to me. 24 doesn't come close to that.

they can't get around the barrel distortion that wide 16mm lenses have. Notice how their wide shots are almost always static? That's because barrel distortion looks even worse when you pan (you get a swimming effect). So they just don't do that. :)I did notice that just recently. Again, this falls under the category of something I love… it just makes it look that much more special… I'm overly sentimental about this stuff.

Originally posted by Moorebid
That's to what I was referring. And unfortunately for me, an ATSC recorder is not sufficient for my purposes, I would also want to be able to record encrypted HD QAM. Unfortunately, such a beast will not exist prior to July 1st.
Nope, you're outta luck except for D-VHS.
o.0 Have you watched KGW lately? KOIN? KWBP? Any of them? Ever? *?* This comment confounds me, because I know you have. You've posted screen shots!
As long as nothing moves on the screen, all those channels look great. Extra bits only help motion.
Compare HDNet's Smallville to KWBP's and tell me more bits don't give you better quality.
I have. They look exactly the same to me as long as there's no motion. It's the same resolution. Smallville is pretty soft to begin with.
I think this falls more under the category of artistic license rather than careless photography. I may say "I like grain" and mean, "I'd like to see it if it's there, not try to avoid seeing it by filtering it through Vaseline," but when they say, "We like grain," they really-really like it. As much as you may dislike it, it does give it that certain "theatrical" look; if anything, it makes it seem less like television.
To me it looks like stuff shot thirty years ago using push-processed film. I don't want to go back in time! Kodak and others worked so hard to make these films look good. :)
It's a gritty show, it's shot in a gritty way. Same with 24.
Oh yeah there's that word, "gritty". There's nothing in this world I like that I would describe as "gritty". :D
Again, artistic license. They could shoot it just as grainy as Alias if they want (same production company, similar production values outside the choice of film exposure), but they don't… they gave it its own look (natural - if oversaturated - color, clean & clear look, very… "tropical") if for no other reason than to differentiate it, to make it look less like everything else out there.
I don't think this is true. Lost benefits from the best possible conditions to shoot film. They have wonderful bright outdoor locations and a single enormous studio that has tons of lights ten feet above all the sets. Alias shoots in difficult outdoor locations at night and small interior locations that are hard to light well. In a feature film they would have had lighting consultants working the location three weeks before the shoot and a tens of thousands of dollars of rented lighting equipment. But this is TV. Most likely they show up, do their best to light what they can, shoot it as fast as possible (Jennifer has to get to a movie set at 6AM tomorrow!) and fix everything in post because if you push film a couple of stops, who cares. It's TV!
But you sacrifice "natural motion" (for wont of a better term) for a cleaner image. HD video's motion blur (or lack thereof) just doesn't look natural, or "like film." It's an effect which I can spot anytime; it stands out like a sore thumb, I really don't care much for it.
I have watched hundreds of hours of 24p video. I have read dozens of articles about it. I have not read one D.P. mentioning anything about motion blur differences. In fact I think that's the only thing they haven't mentioned!
With the exception of what Michael Mann has accomplished with it (Robbery Homicide Division, Collateral), giving that its own unique look (almost looking like it was shot 1080p/30, and also excessively grainy), I am definately not a fan, and I think filmmakers like Robert Rodriguez suffer from its use.
What does excessively grainy mean? Isn't that artistic license?

Aren't Robert Rodriguez and his films are doing quite well these days?
Again, it's not as much that I like it, but that I'd rather see it than not if it's there in the source. Avoiding grain is not an excuse to avoid HD.
But HD should be an excuse to avoid grain. We can see it now. It's distracting. It's what Kodak has been working to fix for a hundred years.
P'shaw, what trade-off? It looks better in every respect, in color saturation, in clarity, in lack of interlacing!
I never see interlacing in filmed material. My MPEG player has a filter that recognizes telecined material and automatically converts in to 24 fps progressive. It even tells me when it switches back and forth between telecined and interlaced.

The color looks the same. Yes, it's sharper and we can see a sandstorm in teh background of every indoor scene more clearly.
I bet you really hated the look of Minority Report… :)
Again, why use Vision 800T on a perfectly lit set? And even worse, why switch back and forth between that and a much smoother stock in the same scene? It was very noticable and pointless. You tell me.
Seriously, I think you're complaining more about their choice of style rather than the quality of the production.
Bah, I read about how TV production crews work. They shoot as fast as they can taking as few risks as possible. In some ways I like this. I love the way they use multiple cameras to get cover on long takes. But it mostly means use one medium speed film stock for everything and just get everything done.
I think that's a common misconception with consumers about HD (not to exclude blame from the marketeers). HD by its nature does not instrinsically imply cleaner, clearer, "more 3D" images. It's just what it stands for… "high definition." More pixels. Yes, you can get cleaner, clearer, "more 3D" images from the format, but that's only as a result of having more pixels.
Well, it's nice to have more contrast and more color range although that's not restricted to HD.
You're still going to see people shoot movies like 28 Days Later which intentionally look like sh*t, get transferred to HD and still look like sh*t, because that's the way they want it to look. HD's not going to change that, nothing's going to change that. You can't stop an artist from being an arsetist.
Yes 28 Days Later was made to look that way. It was a production decision they made weeks before they shot one scene. He could have shot it on 16mm but he liked the creepy effect of PAL video transferred to film.
(For the record, I really didn't like the look of 28 Days Later… DV is worse than black & white.)
I thought it was oddly effective, especially with the last scene shot on film. Have we agreed on anything yet? :)
You could be right… that will truly tell whether the choice was one of style or of laziness. Either that, or it proves the taste of who has control over the appearance of the product at the time of its release… I don't think Brian Grazer would be the type to do that, removing grain is almost akin to coloring black & white to these people, so unless someone else decides to exercise control over the project…
I don't think any of this is laziness at all. It's all about time, budget and getting over a thousand minutes of television on the air every year. It's not an easy job.
Take a look at the DVD's of The X-Files… now if you want to see grain way out of control… that's what I'd call going too far, that looks excessively bad to me. 24 doesn't come close to that.
I've never seen X-Files. I didn't watch television when it was on.

WOW! You both win for the longest posts! Even if they did stray to being a little off subject.

Originally posted by scowl
As long as nothing moves on the screen, all those channels look great. Extra bits only help motion.Oh, I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about the Motion Picture Expert Group's compression technology. My mistake. :p

I have. They look exactly the same to me as long as there's no motion. It's the same resolution. Smallville is pretty soft to begin with.Right, because there's so little motion in Smallville. Superboy moves like a snail. Oh, and they never have any club scenes with incessant strobe lights, no, that never happens.

To me it looks like stuff shot thirty years ago using push-processed film. I don't want to go back in time! Kodak and others worked so hard to make these films look good. :)And it was all for naught… stupid directors and their stupid vision. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah there's that word, "gritty". There's nothing in this world I like that I would describe as "gritty". :DWhat, not even corn meal? Hummus, maybe? A nice cup of champurras? No?

I don't think this is true. Lost benefits from the best possible conditions to shoot film. They have wonderful bright outdoor locations and a single enormous studio that has tons of lights ten feet above all the sets. Alias shoots in difficult outdoor locations at night and small interior locations that are hard to light well.This is true, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suit the purpose and/or intention of the show's creators, in both cases.

In a feature film they would have had lighting consultants working the location three weeks before the shoot and a tens of thousands of dollars of rented lighting equipment.And it might still look like it was shot in a duststorm. Regardless of all those resources, the shoot will look exactly how they want it to look.

I have watched hundreds of hours of 24p video. I have read dozens of articles about it. I have not read one D.P. mentioning anything about motion blur differences. In fact I think that's the only thing they haven't mentioned!I might not be using the right terminology ("for wont of a better term"), but I can't think of a better way to describe it. It's most evident in relatively low-light shoots, or when there's a lot of contrast between dark and light, items seem to… how do I describe it? I guess the closest resemblance to it of which I can think would be a low-speed LCD screen. Items almost appear to leave a ghost trail, or something… that's not quite right, either, but… suffice it to say that with the right care, it can for the most part be avoided. But I see far more HD video footage that looks like it was shot on video than what can pass for film. And that's my unscientific, moderately-informed opinion. And I don't like it.

What does excessively grainy mean? Isn't that artistic license?Robbery Homicide Division was a series which preceded Collateral as sort of an experiment in what Michael Mann could accomplish with the medium. It was shot almost exclusively with natural light, even in the dead of night, and as such looks like it was shot in ISO 800 mode. In some scenes, it's almost to the point of night vision. Collateral wasn't quite as strained, but it retained a very good approximation of the look (and tone) of the series. It wasn't quite as grainy as RHD, but it got fairly close.

Aren't Robert Rodriguez and his films are doing quite well these days?Much to my chagrin… he may not personally be suffering (hell, he's having the time of his life), but it is my opinion that the quality of his filmmaking has suffered. As much as I enjoyed Once Upon a Time in Mexico and Sin City (and loathed Spy Kids, though that has nothing to do with his choice of medium), and as good as they both looked at times (more so the former, the latter was so stylized it hardly mattered), they both suffered from the same phenomenon I've seen with HD video, the same Enterprise has suffered since it converted from film to video… again, I lack the words to describe it, but it just doesn't look… "film-like." When it was well-lit, and when there was relatively little full-frame motion, and when there weren't any explosions in frame, etc. etc., it could've passed for film. The rest of the time, it looked about as bad as the D.E.B.S. trailer I've seen running on INHD (that looked so bad, it could've been shot by the same people who shot Huff!).

Still… it's not NEARLY as bad as DV…

But HD should be an excuse to avoid grain. We can see it now. It's distracting. It's what Kodak has been working to fix for a hundred years.That's the engineer's interpretation. "Because we can, we should." The artist needs a "why." "Why taint my vision with technology?" The medium is supposed to serve the art, not the other way around. If everything was shot under ideal circumstances, with no variation to the look or feel - just get it crisp, clean and clear - then everything would start looking exactly the same as everything else in relatively short order; see Disney films from the late-60's/early-70's (or, well, for that matter, today). It's known as cookie-cutter filmmaking.

I never see interlacing in filmed material. My MPEG player has a filter that recognizes telecined material and automatically converts in to 24 fps progressive. It even tells me when it switches back and forth between telecined and interlaced.You're fortunate to have such technology. My Dish 6000 was piss-poor at deinterlacing telecined material… it was actually better at video-based sources, but film just looked jumpy. The upgrade to 720p was a huge improvement. I've also seen the DVD releases of the first and second seasons, which weren't bad (they weren't great either), and it's still a monumental difference. 1080p can only be that much better.

Again, why use Vision 800T on a perfectly lit set? And even worse, why switch back and forth between that and a much smoother stock in the same scene? It was very noticable and pointless. You tell me.Why make a shot seen from the POV of one character look different than that from the POV of another? Because each character sees the world somewhat differently.

Why should black & white? (EDIT: make that shoot… black & white) Even worse, why switch back and forth between that and color in the same scene? *horrors*

Often times, film is shot a certain way to reflect how the director perceives that which he is shooting, or how he would like to perceive it, and how he would like his audience to perceive it. Think of it as a trip into someone else's mind.

Well, it's nice to have more contrast and more color range although that's not restricted to HD.And it's not in comparison to film either, it's in direct relation to SD-video, at which it excels immensely, but then consider the original source… *shudder*

Yes 28 Days Later was made to look that way. It was a production decision they made weeks before they shot one scene. He could have shot it on 16mm but he liked the creepy effect of PAL video transferred to film.And that's his prerogative. He's the director, he gets to call the shots. I have no say in that…

I thought it was oddly effective, especially with the last scene shot on film. Have we agreed on anything yet? :)We would agree that "it was oddly effective, especially with the last scene shot on film," yet I still didn't like it. But I would no more ask him to change its appearance to suit my tastes than you should ask Fox to preclude the release of 24 on HD-DVD/Blu-Ray so that you could avoid seeing the grain. It's there, they [may or may not] want it there, it's not our call.

I've never seen X-Files. I didn't watch television when it was on. Then you haven't seen grain. Imagine a scene with absolutely no light, save for the $10,000 tightly-focused Xenon-bulb flashlight(s) in the hand(s) of the character(s) shining on everything but themselves. There were several scenes like that in the early seasons. They sort of followed the less-is-more approach, the less you see, the more frightening/intriguing it is. I didn't particularly care for this approach, and unfortunately the quality of the shot suffered. Of course, this was in the early '90's, where they were still mastering to SD video, so quality really didn't matter.

Ya know, I just looked back on this thread and realized how long-winded we can be! :D And how completely off-topic we've gotten, so allow me to attempt to steer this ship back into the current (if anyone's even still reading ;)):

Damn, tonight's episode of Enterprise was awesome! It's really hitting its stride this season, and they just now decide to cancel it. Bastards! Oh, and flawless performance from KPDX.

Nice dialog! Why don't you guys become IM buddies since you love to type so much?

Meanwhile, has KWBP shown any HD programming since the first half of Smallville? I checked tonight and it was all SD every time I looked.

Sorry I haven't checked in here for quite a while but I've been really overworked lately at the WB and as a result, I have let some things slide. I skimmed throught the recent comments about our signal and I saw that some of you had noticed the reduced bit rate we had for a while. Hopefully, that issue is behind us now but it was a bit of a battle getting approval for more bits. You're probably wondering why this is any different than before and without going into too much detail, we now receive all our programming and commercials through an ATM circuit from our corporate Regional Operating Center (ROC) in Seattle.

The ATM connection is a measured service and more bits means higher operating cost so I can't get the bitrate up any higher than it is now. For HD delivered from WB, we are now down a little on rate from where we were operating originally. However, for all other programming, the quality should be better since it is now coming from a new all digital master control facility and never goes to analog on the way to the DTV transmitter. Our local master control was always a fully analog system with an upconverter feeding 1080i into the DTV stream so this is a big improvement.

One way to reduce the operating cost is to go to a variable bit rate encoding scheme which means that during times of little motion, fewer bits are needed to encode the video/audio. We currently use fixed bit rates in our encoders which is normal for broadcast applications since the transmitter needs a fixed bitrate anyway. Normally, the only time VBR is useful is when mutlicasting different programs like those sat providers who use it to compress the sh$% out of the video. For us, if we had the option, we could set the upper limit to be higher than our current rate but with most of our signal being SD sourced, the composite rate would be lower. I just have to convince the right people that we need to spend another $4,000 for the option. Of course, that was not in the original $3.5M budget for the ROC so it's not looking good at this time.

Now, as for the two outstanding issues that have been identified here and one not mentioned, I'll try to explain what is going on. The first is the left shift of the picture by 48 pixels as measured by Scowl. I'll take his word for it because I never bothered to count the actual pixels of shift. We think it is the new model satellite receiver used in Seattle for the HD signal. The Seattle WB uses an older receiver just like the ones I have used here and they don't exhibit the shift. One of the Seattle engineers was down at the NAB (National Association of Broadcasters) convention last week in Lost Wages and he discussed this at length with the manufacturer's engineer. They think they have identified the issue and it should be resolved with a software update hopefully this coming week.

The loss of HD for the past few days is tightly related to the third issue that I mentioned that none of you have noted. Since the change to the ROC, our closed captioning during prime network (when HD is available) has been a nightmare. The network has NEVER properly delivered CC data within the HD stream and since that is all we use now for all our transmitters, we had to devise a work around fix. We have been extracting the CC data from the SD satellite feed and inserting it into the HD stream but that has caused serious delays in the CC on-screen to the spoken words. For the hearing impaired who rely on CC, our prime time shows have been totally unwatchable. We have received dozens of complaints every day since 3/28 when we turned on the ROC. Sorry guys, but the squeaky wheel got the grease and you lost HD until we get this resolved.

Fortunately, our corporate Director of Engineering met with the WB network engineering management at the NAB last week and on Friday, I got an e-mail saying they think they have the CC issue figured out. We'll find out Monday night if they got it right. If they get the CC data so that it will come through on the HD feed (and properly decode on my end for my analog transmitters) then we should be back to HD programming and happy CC viewers as well.

I hope this message has helped you understand what has happened lately at KWBP even though it is not all good news. And just so you know, I will continue to put in my 60+ hour weeks so you have an enjoyable (and free) TV viewing experience. Ultimately, I want all our viewers to be happy with our signal quality so I take these issues very seriously. Thanks for your patience and please don't hesitate to let me know when things are less than satisfactory.

Pat Shearer
KWBP Chief Engineer
Ch 32 Analog, Ch 5 Analog, Ch 33 Digital
pshearer@tribune.com

Hey Pat,

Thanks for the heads-up! I think I did mention something about the closed captioning being "off" awhile back (I was seeing a lot of "<http://" stuff in the captioning, and for whatever reason the background was appearing translucent, but I ended up liking that feature so I configured my 6412 to no background. :)), or if I didn't, I meant to. It wasn't particularly bad in my estimation, I could still make out the text of what was said, but I could see how some less-informed viewers might take offense.

Although, that was awhile back, and now that I think of it, I can't remember any such issues at least for the past couple weeks. But then I don't remember anything special about the closed-captioning recently, which means it either appeared normal, or didn't appear at all. But the shift back to SD didn't affect that in any way either, so I'm failing to see its benefit.

If it's just the delay issue, I really don't see that as an issue; I actually prefer a bit of delay between the spoken word and the caption (it allows me to ignore the captions for the most part, but if I miss a word or two (which happens often), I can then reference the captions when they appear). It's much more preferable to captions which appear before audibly spoken, which can also "ruin the joke" - so to speak - by allowing one to read the content before it's uttered audibly (thereby losing the impact of the delivery).

As to the bitrate… *shrug* Why would you switch to ATM over satellite for HD content delivery? Wasn't the satellite uplink basically free to you? Or did the network stop uplinking via satellite? Either way, it seems like a less effective method of mass delivery, especially with ATM charging by the bit. But if VBR could help both picture quality and bandwidth requirements, I would say .04mil is a drop in the bucket.

And hey, if you're feeling overworked, I offer my experience as a software quality assurance engineer with a television production background (way back…ground… :))… seriously, 60+ hours a week is going to put you into an early grave.

Maybe you missed the point about the ATM delivery. We no longer have a master control in Beaverton - ALL our signal comes through the ATM. WB still delivers it by satellite to stations but we have no local switching capabillity anymore which is why we are now bandwidth limited on the HD.

The CC lag only affected prime time and at times I measured it up to 16 seconds which meant that captions would normally come on long after scene changes making it almost impossible to correlate the words with the actions. This has been going on since 3/28 when we made the switch.

If you understand the corporate budget way of looking at things, you should know that even though $4k is a drop in the bucket, it still wasn't in the budget and therefore not approved. That's just too big to sneak past the bean counters so it may take a while for approval but I haven't given up.

And as for the long hours, I don't have a life anyway. I am recently divorced and in the process of "redefining" myself so having the extra work keeps me out of trouble. I also was short a person in engineering for a couple of months leading up to the ROC transition which caused me to have to do almost all of the work by myself. We are now back to a "full" staff level of two engineers so we're starting to get caught up again.

Something else I forgot to mention here is that the DTV transmitter decided to eat a power supply last Tuesday afternoon. We didn't have a spare so we ran at 1/2 power until Thursday when the new supply was installed. I didn't get any complaints about the reduced power and with digital, I didn't expect any. Gotta love that ATSC magic - all or nothing.

Originally posted by Richard Winfeld
Nice dialog! Why don't you guys become IM buddies since you love to type so much? OK, we're now going to try to not talk so much any more ... especially since we can't agree on anything! :D

Well the good news with all the KWBP troubles is that their bit rate is now compariable to other stations in Portland, especially those who are multicasting an SD subchannel for no reason. Over the past month:

KPTV (24): 9.3 Mbps (was 12.3 Mbps two months ago!)
KOIN (CSI): 11.7 Mbps
KWBP (Smallville): 13.5 Mbps (was 11.5 Mbps before Pat pulled some strings)
KGW (Law & Order): 14.7 Mbps
KPDX (Veronica Mars): 17.4 Mbps
KATU (Lost, first 60 minutes): 18.5 Mbps

I'm not going to complain about those missing 48 pixels. I'm doubt this is even visible on most sets and even stretching the image horizontally 16 pixels looks fine to me. Now if we could just keep it HD for the whole show, everything will be perfect.

Originally posted by Pat Shearer
Maybe you missed the point about the ATM delivery. We no longer have a master control in Beaverton - ALL our signal comes through the ATM. WB still delivers it by satellite to stations but we have no local switching capabillity anymore which is why we are now bandwidth limited on the HD.Ahh, I didn't gather that. In hindsight that makes more sense, especially in reference to "all other programming." Somehow I was under the impression that you'd upgraded to a digital master control facility locally, which actually didn't make sense to me as that was deemed way out of budget awhile back… but then so was HD if I recall. ;) Glad to see we got that one covered.

The CC lag only affected prime time and at times I measured it up to 16 seconds which meant that captions would normally come on long after scene changes making it almost impossible to correlate the words with the actions. This has been going on since 3/28 when we made the switch.WOW! Yeah, I never noticed anything remotely like that, and I certainly would have as I run CC on at all times. However I only really watch Smallville, and only when it's new, so I probably wasn't watching during most of that timeframe (they've only been new episodes for the last two, after over a month's hiatus).

If you understand the corporate budget way of looking at things, you should know that even though $4k is a drop in the bucket, it still wasn't in the budget and therefore not approved. That's just too big to sneak past the bean counters so it may take a while for approval but I haven't given up.Indeed, but if $4k spent now means >$4k saved in the [near] future, I would think said bean counters might be more pliable. :) But then I don't know that >$4k would be saved, as I don't know what the bandwidth actually costs (all I know is that T1's are still ~$500/mo, ATM is way out of my budget. :) So are T1's for that matter…).

And as for the long hours, I don't have a life anyway. I am recently divorced…Probably 'cause of the 60 hour weeks… :D

…and in the process of "redefining" myself so having the extra work keeps me out of trouble.Not to get overly emo on this board, but I find myself to be of completely different disposition (there I go disagreeing again!). If I'm having particularly difficult times in my personal life, burying myself in my work only makes things worse. But then I don't have a "career," I have "jobs" (not even that of late, and admittedly that is my major problem, personally), so it probably doesn't mean as much to me as it does to you.

Something else I forgot to mention here is that the DTV transmitter decided to eat a power supply last Tuesday afternoon. We didn't have a spare so we ran at 1/2 power until Thursday when the new supply was installed. I didn't get any complaints about the reduced power and with digital, I didn't expect any. Gotta love that ATSC magic - all or nothing. And in my case, that doesn't mean a lot. When you were operating at full-power, I was only getting ~65%, which is just on the edge between all and nothing with my Dish 811. Fortunately, I have cable now… :cool:

Originally posted by scowl
OK, we're now going to try to not talk so much any more ... especially since we can't agree on anything! :D Now now, if we agreed on everything, we wouldn't have much more to say to each other than, "I agree" or "ditto." :) In order to have discourse, you gotta have discord. And on that note…

KPTV (24): 9.3 Mbps (was 12.3 Mbps two months ago!)Geez, that's pathetic! But apparantly (http://www.widemovies.com/dfwbitrate.html), that's the network sending out such anemic rates. Can't blame the local for that. What's interesting about that chart is that, while the Dallas affiliate is sending out the same bitrate as we get, DirecTV - because they run it through their statistical multiplexers - actually boosts the bitrate above that at which it originated. Either that, or they've got access to a higher-bitrate source, in which case, why don't we?

KOIN (CSI): 11.7 MbpsThat's even worse! What the hell's going on?! They haven't sold out to USDTV already, have they? Or started their own, similar service… *shrug* I guess it's a good thing Comcast doesn't carry them, and that I don't watch any CBS content, or else I'd be really :mad:. I actually get a better bitrate from Dish Network's CBS-E feed (and in 5.1 no less).

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KOIN (CSI): 11.7 Mbps
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's even worse! What the hell's going on?! They haven't sold out to USDTV already, have they? Or started their own, similar service‌ *shrug* I guess it's a good thing Comcast doesn't carry them, and that I don't watch any CBS content, or else I'd be really . I actually get a better bitrate from Dish Network's CBS-E feed (and in 5.1 no less).While KOIN has always been less than optimal when it comes to bit rate, this doesn't surprise me. The other day I flipped into Entertainment Tonight (upconvert) when I was working out and it was pixelation city. Much worse than usual. I wonder why the reduction?

And their audio problem that causes the static-y sound on PLII receivers is at an all time high lately as well. I could even hear a little of it during Survivor last week and previously it was only apparent during local programming. It's become so bad on their local stuff that I have to strain to understand what they are saying when I switch over to check the weather during their news now. Very sad state of affairs there...

ron

KOIN's bit rate has been dropping lately. Maybe something got set wrong after the NCAA tournament. KGW's has been going up for some reason and I think it looks really good now.

What's really sad is the times that Lee has turned KOIN's bit rate on full blast for special events, it's looked completely stunning. But lately many scenes in CSI have looked much like many bit-starved scenes in Smallville. Whenever someone is about to take a flash picture of a crime scene, you know pixels are on the way.

The multicast battle thread in HDTV Programming has got me wondering if KOIN and KGW are keeping their worthless SD subchannels running all the time in case they find some use for them.

Originally posted by scowl

KOIN (CSI): 11.7 Mbps
The HD stream is actually allocated 13.25 Mbps for Video, 384 kbps for Main Audio and 192 kbps for Secondary Audio.

Since the KOIN encoder runs at a variable bit rate only using what is needed the reading of 11.7 is fairly typical - the scene being observed didn't need all 13.25. Normal variation is between 6 Mbps and 13.25 Mbps. Typical HDTV programming runs between 10 and 12 Mbps for video, upconverted programming runs between 8 and 11 Mbps. Typically there are 1-3 Mbps of null packets in the KOIN ATSC stream because the content being compressed didn't need all the bits.

There is also a big difference in the quality of the encoding process. KOIN's Motorola (General Instrument) encoder is much more efficent than the Harris encoders used by most other local stations. We ran both models side by side for 6 months and 13 Mbps on the Motorola design is equivalent to 15+ Mbps on the Harris unit. Not all MPEG encoders are created equal.

Originally posted by Moorebid
What's interesting about that chart is that, while the Dallas affiliate is sending out the same bitrate as we get, DirecTV - because they run it through their statistical multiplexers - actually boosts the bitrate above that at which it originated. Could it be that DirectTV has to pad FOX with extra bits to reserve room for when FOX's variable bit rate increases?

Originally posted by Lee Wood
Since the KOIN encoder runs at a variable bit rate only using what is needed the reading of 11.7 is fairly typical - the scene being observed didn't need all 13.25. Would it help if I posted screen shots of scenes that I feel have too many artifacts? I know flashes and strobe lights are always a problem in HDTV (except on KPDX) but there have been times in CSI when someone has walked across a scene and left a trail of pixels. Is it possible that the scene change threshold is set wrong?

Originally posted by Lee Wood
The HD stream is actually allocated 13.25 Mbps for Video, 384 kbps for Main Audio and 192 kbps for Secondary Audio.

Since the KOIN encoder runs at a variable bit rate only using what is needed the reading of 11.7 is fairly typical - the scene being observed didn't need all 13.25. Normal variation is between 6 Mbps and 13.25 Mbps. Typical HDTV programming runs between 10 and 12 Mbps for video, upconverted programming runs between 8 and 11 Mbps. Typically there are 1-3 Mbps of null packets in the KOIN ATSC stream because the content being compressed didn't need all the bits.Not sure what the deal was with the ET I saw then Lee, but it was definitely worse than the usual pixelation. It was their standard multiple, quick scene change style programming, but it didn't seem to be anything out of the ordinary or particularly demanding really (no flashing lights or zooming graphics etc). I have to admit though that I don't watch much KOIN any longer due to the audio issues. Where as I used to watch CSI's Miami and NY, I now go to bed early (which is actually not a bad thing). I still watch Survivor and CSI: LV on thursdays though. One thing I noticed on LV last week was that when it first came on the dialog was widely spread through the surrounds, but shortly thereafter, it changed and became somewhat more centered (although still not right). That makes it watchable at least. Are you guys switching settings somewhere along the chain locally to accomplish this?

ron

Pat, thank you for the comprehensive rundown of what has been happening at KWBP and for all of your hard work. One thing I haven't seen mentioned in a while though is DD5.1 and if the WB has figured out what the problems were that it was having.

With the KOIN General Manager repeatedly asking for viewer feedback at the end of the local news, has anyone else taken the opportunity to write in and mention how great it would be if they were the first in Portland to broadcast local news and programming in HD?

Earl

There has not been any changes in either audio or video processing, switching or handling of the KOIN signals in well over a year. The only change has been the change out of the PSIP system.

There will be a minor change in the next month or so to get things ready for the day when Nielsen finally does begin to measure the digital audience.

Also there will be additional work on the transmitter in May to install new tubes, add a third tube, and an increase in power from 839kw to 1,000kw. Don't get too excited about that though, it's only a 0.76 db increase. A bad F-connector installation on a receive antenna will loose much more power than that.

Hey Lee, why is that all KOIN programming has the majority of the dialog coming out of my left front speaker? it's very annoying and the only way to slightly correct it is to set my receiver to prologic.

OK I carefully rewatched last week's CSI that had less than a 11.3 Mbps bit rate and, all right Lee, you win. Overall it looked very good and there were only two moments of obvious artifacts. Both of these involved motion of high-contrast objects moving while the camera was panning and this tends to leave miscolored macroblocks. These examples are crops and reductions. The first noticable one was this. Here, the actor is stepping out of his dark car into the sunlight as the camera pans. I think the loss of detail was the thing that jumps out the most:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/CSI1.jpg

This black and white cop car left a very visible rainbow of blocks across the whole screen while the camera panned:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/CSI2.jpg

There were two or three others that I'm sure I wouldn't have noticed if I had blinked, like this one where a pan of a high-contrast scene generated miscolored macroblocks:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/CSI3.jpg

Rather than ask this on the Comcast thread I wonder what the bitrate experts think of the Portland area cable retransmissions of the locals.

Are they retransmitting the full bit rate (after dropping null packets) they receive from the locals like we do with OTA or do they do any more compressing before putting it on their lines????

We continue to struggle with the WB network closed captioning and unfortunately, it looks like Smallville will be in SD upconvert yet again this week. There has been a lot of time spent trying to resolve this issue with the involvement of people in the network operations center, Seattle and here and we are very close to a permanent solution. Please try to understand that we think this is a high priority and I am confident that we will solve it.

Originally posted by earletp
One thing I haven't seen mentioned in a while though is DD5.1 and if the WB has figured out what the problems were that it was having.

I believe the WB resolved all their problems with 5.1 sound. However, they have not aired anything with 5.1 since the first Lord of the Rings and to my knowledge, the next programming with it will be the next LOTR this fall. All the equipment that I had in place for 5.1 has been shipped to Seattle and it is due to be installed within a few weeks so we will be ready to go when the network airs 5.1 encoded programs.

Let me throw my $.02 worth in with Lee's comments about the differences in encoders. When we originated from here, we used a Tandberg 5821 encoder that was new technology in 2003. We are now using the latest model Tandberg 5780 in Seattle and from what I have observed, the picture quality is as good as before with a lower bitrate. Each generation improves the encoding process but at around $40,000 each, you can't expect stations to keep buying new encoders to improve the quality.

Originally posted by Moorebid
(all I know is that T1's are still ~$500/mo, ATM is way out of my budget. So are T1's for that matter)

How about somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000/mo depending on how many bits we push through? The circuit is capable of 36MBits bi-directional. It is actually ATM riding on a DS-3 running through fiber so the theoritical speed limit is 45MBits but the ATM overhead creates the 36M actual limit. The $10K covers about 15M down and 2M up with some bursting for WAN traffic.

Pat

Originally posted by Lee Wood
There has not been any changes in either audio or video processing, switching or handling of the KOIN signals in well over a year. The only change has been the change out of the PSIP system.

There will be a minor change in the next month or so to get things ready for the day when Nielsen finally does begin to measure the digital audience.

Also there will be additional work on the transmitter in May to install new tubes, add a third tube, and an increase in power from 839kw to 1,000kw. Don't get too excited about that though, it's only a 0.76 db increase. A bad F-connector installation on a receive antenna will loose much more power than that. OK then. You had mentioned some time back that CBS was investigating the 5.1 situation and possible remedies to the problems it was causing some of the non-5.1 broadcasters I believe. Are they doing anything special on the headend that might account for this? It has always seemed strange to me that sometimes when I tune in the audio will be very strongly distributed throughout the surrounds, and other times the dialog (while still not completely centered) will be much better. I just never really noticed it changing over while a show was on before (although when this happened during CSI: LV last week I think it may have switched over when they came back from the commercials after the intro).

ron

Originally posted by Pat Shearer
We continue to struggle with the WB network closed captioning and unfortunately, it looks like Smallville will be in SD upconvert yet again this week. Waaaaaah!

:( :( :(

Sorry, I had to do that.

Originally posted by Pat Shearer
Each generation improves the encoding process but at around $40,000 each, you can't expect stations to keep buying new encoders to improve the quality. I think every viewer here would be happy to watch a station using an old Harris encoder running at 18 Mbps (isn't that what KATU is doing?). When a station pays $40,000 to give us about the same picture quality at a lower bit rate but then simply throws the extra bits away to no one's benefit, a viewer can't help but wonder why the station spent that $40,000.

Originally posted by Pat Shearer
Each generation improves the encoding process but at around $40,000 each, you can't expect stations to keep buying new encoders to improve the quality. Ooohh to be a WB affiliate and not have been required to be on the air in November, 1999. KOIN's HD Encoder cost about $250,000 and the three service capable SD encoder (who knew what direction things were going to go back then) another $100,000. Total encoder cost ~ $350,000. Only the digital transmitter cost more at $1,100,000. In fact, the FCC mandated 'use it or lose it' power increase from 839kw to 1,000kw (a 0.76db power increase) is costing $440,000. Oh, and that 1999 PSIP system we just retired, the one KOIN used as the only station in Portland to fully impliment PSIP, cost $35,000 back then. Now its a boat anchor.

Not to whine, but being a required 'early adopter' station is no less expensive than being an 'early adopter' viewer. Has anyone tossed out their 1999 $10,000 plasma screen? And their significant other said...?

I'll just say that I'm glad I never heard about KOIN (and KOPB) upgrading to HDTV back then otherwise I would have run out and bought some really expensive screen that would look like crap now! :)

Originally posted by Paul_PDX
Rather than ask this on the Comcast thread I wonder what the bitrate experts think of the Portland area cable retransmissions of the locals.

Are they retransmitting the full bit rate (after dropping null packets) they receive from the locals like we do with OTA or do they do any more compressing before putting it on their lines????Comcast as a policy claims to do no recompression of any of their HD content. While I am not convinced of this WRT the premium content, this would appear to be the case with the locals. What scowl posted for bitrates OTA seems to line up with what I've seen in the recent past on Comcast (I think I saw KGW at 15.3mbps). KATU is definately the sterling example, with a constant 18.3mbps. Let us pray ABCNewsNow stays dead and buried.

Originally posted by Pat Shearer
How about somewhere in the neighborhood of $10,000/mo depending on how many bits we push through? The circuit is capable of 36MBits bi-directional. It is actually ATM riding on a DS-3 running through fiber so the theoritical speed limit is 45MBits but the ATM overhead creates the 36M actual limit. The $10K covers about 15M down and 2M up with some bursting for WAN traffic.And now here comes Verizon with their 15 Mbps down/2 Mbps up FIOS service for $50/mo. Care to press your bandwidth-cap luck? :) Even 30/5 costs $200, that would leave room for bursting… though I doubt they do point-to-point.

Originally posted by scowl
I think every viewer here would be happy to watch a station using an old Harris encoder running at 18 Mbps (isn't that what KATU is doing?).Hear, hear! (We agree!)

When a station pays $40,000 to give us about the same picture quality at a lower bit rate but then simply throws the extra bits away to no one's benefit, a viewer can't help but wonder why the station spent that $40,000.Quite right, and I would still go so far as to say it's quite the detriment, as clearly evidenced by Lee himself when he does bump the bitrate up.

I hate to be a stick in the mud about this, Lee, but Dish Network's feed of WCBS-DT is (or was?) beating you in picture quality, and that's with whatever recompression they may (or may not) be applying. Doing A-B comparisons (about a year ago, while I had a Dish 921) between just the opening quick-shots of any CSI episode evidenced this fully; whereas WCBS remained relatively solid between each cut (about as much as we'd expect from real-time MPEG compression), KOIN broke into a bunch of macroblocks resembling an old Intel Indeo video, after every cut! Still not as bad as KGW can get (I still see fuzz-o-vision regularly from them), but that's not saying much. If the bitrate is going down instead of up, though - without a change of encoders - that's saying a helluva lot. You didn't change encoders, did you? It says that the suits get their way, the bandwidth is more valuable than the picture quality. What else is new?

Even HBO/Showtime/Starz peak at 14.3mbps, and at least they apply 3:2 encoding (not entirely reliably, but still)… but they're hardly the gold-standard.

Originally posted by Moorebid
...
KATU is definately the sterling example, with a constant 18.3mbps. Let us pray ABCNewsNow stays dead and buried.


Unfortunately I fear we should enjoy KATU now, for when/if the 2006 rollout happens I am sure the networks will feel they have to transmit a 4:3 subchannel for all of those with 4:3 sd sets using downconversion.

They will do this like the DVD industry even though most of those boxes would probably be able to do a pan/scan downconversion mostly fine without wasting the precious HD bandwidth...

On the subject of KATU was Lost this week actually a SD feed from the Network. I am surprised the network would skimp so badly on a hit show with a cut together show like this just before sweeps and the season finale.

Yes, the LOST recap show was SD everywhere in the country. Next week!

ron

STB's can already downconvert to SD without the help of an SD subchannel. I suppose the stations will continue to give the cable companies an SD feed for several more decades. I have a feeling that networks will want to move to move all of their programming to a single HD feed and their affiliates will downconvert and crop from that HD feed if their markets need an SD version.

I think the point of the silly Lost recap show was to push the new episodes into the sweeps instead of "wasting" a new episode this week.

I think the point of the silly Lost recap show was to push the new episodes into the sweeps instead of "wasting" a new episode this week.They didn't need a recap ep to do that scowl. They could have just scheduled in another one of the repeats if they wanted to. I think the main point of the recap show was in hopes of snagging some new viewers who haven't been watching by giving them a chance to "catch up". It was also probably meant to be a refresher for people who may have missed ep's, dropped off due to the looooong breaks between new ep's, or had just plain gotten confused about what the heck was going on even. I'm not so sure how successful it was in doing any of those things though... Anyway, next week!

ron

Originally posted by scowl
STB's can already downconvert to SD without the help of an SD subchannel.

I am well aware of that, I distribute down-rezd HD now at home with a modulator accross my coax.

However most set top boxes only letter box or do simple edge cropping (zoom) when they downconvert HD to 480i.

I imagine the advertisers/networks wont be happy with letterboxed or simple chop off the edges style crops of their ads and of the shows while more than half of the audience will still be watching on old 4:3 SD tvs.

Later once the critical mass has real 16:9 Digital displays/TVs then they may finally drop the 4:3 feeds and say the laggards can live with what they get.

In the mean time I feel it may hurt real HD owners -- may even result in more 4:3 subfeeds still aimed at old sets. i hope this doesn't happen in Portland...

Originally posted by Paul_PDX
I imagine the advertisers/networks wont be happy with letterboxed or simple chop off the edges style crops of their ads and of the shows while more than half of the audience will still be watching on old 4:3 SD tvs. But that's exactly what they're doing today for people with 4:3 sets. Everything is either carefully shot to be 4:3 safe or it's letterboxed and they'll continue to do this as long as 4:3 sets exist. Viewers with 4:3 sets will get to choose which version they want to see.

Any of you station engineer types seen anything like this before?

I have a client who just moved his office to the top (3rd) floor of a building that is pretty much right underneath the largest collection of TV towers in the West Hills.

He has two MS wireless mice that were working fine in his old location but now are not. There are periodic clicks and moves that are independent of anything any person is doing with the mouse. It definitely follows these two mice independent of the computer they are connected to. It's not stray IR; it happens even in an enclosed room with no windows and no other IR sources. It happens regularly, ebbing and flowing like interference commonly does.

The MS knowledge base says that EMF from some monitors at some refresh rates may cause similar behavior in wireless mice.

I can't come up with any hypothesis other than EMF from the broadcast towers and a particularly susceptible model of wireless mouse. There is another model MS wireless mouse in the office that does not seem to have the same problem.

Is this a plausible explanation?

HD or SD mice? Or possibly those new upconverting mice? If the latter, there has been some evidence of massive EMF overload induced mulitpath in them. It manifests itself as a failure to obtain/maintain signal lock resulting in sporadic right clickage and random cursor movement. Not good when cramming to get those TPS Reports done by deadline. Also particularly bothersome when cruising AVS. The common solution is to get the Rat Shack attenuator to attach to the IR receiver. Good luck!

ron

Originally posted by doretta
Any of you station engineer types seen anything like this before?

I have a client who just moved his office to the top (3rd) floor of a building that is pretty much right underneath the largest collection of TV towers in the West Hills.

He has two MS wireless mice that were working fine in his old location but now are not. There are periodic clicks and moves that are independent of anything any person is doing with the mouse. It definitely follows these two mice independent of the computer they are connected to. It's not stray IR; it happens even in an enclosed room with no windows and no other IR sources. It happens regularly, ebbing and flowing like interference commonly does.

The MS knowledge base says that EMF from some monitors at some refresh rates may cause similar behavior in wireless mice.

I can't come up with any hypothesis other than EMF from the broadcast towers and a particularly susceptible model of wireless mouse. There is another model MS wireless mouse in the office that does not seem to have the same problem.

Is this a plausible explanation?

Sounds plausible to me, although I don't claim to be a wireless mouse expert by a long, long shot. The amount of RF on the hill, however, has been known to cause strange happenings in some electronic equipment - especially those items that are poorly shielded.

Originally posted by edwardewilliams
The amount of RF on the hill, however, has been known to cause strange happenings in some electronic equipment - especially those items that are poorly shielded.

Thanks, Ed.

The amount of RF on the hill, however, has been known to cause strange happenings in some electronic equipment - especially those items that are poorly shielded.Not just electronic equipment either. Not sure if it's simply PDX urban legend, but there have been stories going way back of residents up there picking up snatches of radio broadcasts through their metal fillings and even strange things from toasters and such. Could you imagine having to be faced with Lars Larson or Michael Savage popping up in your head randomly with no way to change stations? :eek: Talk about a living hell...

Sorry ultraconservatives, just kidding... sorta.

ron

Originally posted by doretta
Any of you station engineer types seen anything like this before?
<snipped a bunch>
I can't come up with any hypothesis other than EMF from the broadcast towers and a particularly susceptible model of wireless mouse. There is another model MS wireless mouse in the office that does not seem to have the same problem.

Is this a plausible explanation?
I like R11's explanation better than Ed's. However, I can tell you from first hand experience that increased EMF can cause some very strange things to happen. Our main analog site puts out 5 megawatts on channel 32 from an antenna about 240' above the ground. The most sensitive RF measuring instruments don't detect an significant amount near the base of the tower but my old Panasonic cell phone would almost always reboot itself every couple of hours while I was at the site. The reboot never happened any other time. We also had a problem several years ago when the FM station at the site went to their auxilary antenna which was located near our building. It would cause our generator to attempt to start and that had to be fixed with a filter in the control unit.

At a transmitter site I used to maintain several years ago, the flourescent lights in the lunchroom had a slight glow even when turned off. I discovered that one night when I walked into the room with the lights off and I could actually see the glow. The room had no windows so I shut the door which should have made it completely dark inside but it was not. I actually got out a ladder and opened up one of the light fixtures and looked closely at the tubes. They were definitely glowing at a very low level - spooky!

Pat
p.s. I've been working around RF most of my life (became a ham at age 14) and it hasn't had any detrimental affects to my life or my health or my health or my health or my health <WHAP> that I am aware of :) My two kids even turned out somewhat normal.

There are also urban legends (or are they?) about people recharging batteries with curcuits that were powered by signals from nearby AM radio towers. I never did the math to see if this could work but I'm sure solar cells would work much better, even in Portland.

Hello All. On a bit of a different subject here...
I heard that KGW is going to get "NBC Weather Plus" going on or about June 30th. It is supposed to be an All Weather, All The Time, channel.
I assume it will probably go onto channel 8.2
Question is, will it degrade the 8.1 signal? Or is KGW adding capability?

Thanks for any reply
R.

I hadn't heard about KGW adding a weather sub-channel, but I doubt that it would go on 8-2 if they do, since they already have an SD sub-channel there.
Someone will correct me if I'm wrong :), but I don't believe they can add more "capability", just further split the 19+Mbps they have allocated.

Earl

(edited to add...) I hope they don't add yet another sub-channel. It would be a case of more is less, and I'd rather have more/better HD, not weather.

Let's hope that if they do, they at least take a little slice out of the bandwidth currently allocated to 8-2 to do it with. Then it wouldn't matter as 8-2 is pretty much useless and a waste of good bandwidth already anyway.

ron

I know lots of other markets have stations with multicast 24/7 weather. I keep wondering what group out there is under-served by a lack of weather information?

Bob

Great, I just figured 8.2 wasn't very usefull as is. Now they may add 8.3?
Bummer.
Well, as long as they don't touch 8.1's oomph, I supposed it'd be OK. :-)

R.

Another question. I noticed OPB's program guide went south a bit back, and channels 10, 10.1, and 10.2 supposed to be showing the same shows.
Of course, 10.1 is not. Anyone know when OPB will have accurate program listings for each channel?

Along that line, KPTV, 12.2 shows as showing 'Traffic cameras, building camera, and others' But it is exactly the same programming as 12, and 12.1. Any idea what 12.2 is going to be about?

R.

And yet another question....
KPXG 22.1,2,3,4. What is that?
My mostly trusty Sony SatHD200 sees the channels, but there
is no programming visible to me.
Is it something I would have to adjust my antenna for? (not going to happen, but, would be nice to know.)
As far as I know, I get all other channels, great reception.

If you are wondering with the SatHD200, we disconnected DirectTV for budget reasons. But, since I insisted having an OTA antenna installed as part of the initial DirectTV install, I get all the HD locals.

Thanks

R.

So you're saying that you actually have guide info showing up even though you have shut off your D* service? I didn't think any D* boxes did PSIP...

ron

I didn't either, but it hasn't gone away. I haven't subscribed to D* for 8 months, but still have the guide. Perhaps the Sony SATHD200 can fly solo when it comes to that. :-) Whatever the cause, I am happy it didn't disappear!

R.

>So you're saying that you actually have guide info showing up even >though you have shut off your D* service? I didn't think any D* boxes did >PSIP...

TheJory,

Since early February, KOPB has been and still is broadcasting the correct guide information for both 10-1 and 10-2. (10 and 10-2 have the same programming, 10-1 is either widescreen or HD all of the time now)

KPTV doesn't broadcast a 12-2 subchannel.

Yes, KPXG does have programming on all 4 subs. 22-1 and 2 are west/east coast feeds, 22-3 and 4 have worship/faith programming.

So, I doubt you're getting the OTA PSIP either.

Earl

Also, KPXG-DT's frequency is VHF channel 4, so if you got a UHF antenna installed, you probably shouldn't be receiving it. It hardly matters, though, as PAX is not long for this world (http://mobile.digitalspy.co.uk/article.php?id=20780).

> KPTV doesn't broadcast a 12-2 subchannel.

Hmm. Odd. I receive the original channel 12 as 480i, and 12.1 and 12.2 are both 720P. Obviously I'm pulling in some sort of signal on 12.2, otherwise I wouldn't be getting it. And my 'guide' even has a "what's playing" for it. (see my note above)

>So, I doubt you're getting the OTA PSIP either

Better tell my wife that, we have been watching and recording, according to the guide. And other than that minor issue with channel 10.1, and 12.2, everything is right on. It goes out 7 days. How far does PSIP go out for?
Whatever it is I have, it works.

After we dropped D*, the guide switched from going out 4 days, to 7 days.

R.

> Also, KPXG-DT's frequency is VHF channel 4, so if you got a UHF antenna installed...

That I do. I don't know all the info about the antenna, I just know it is a Channelmaster with one out of an optional two UHF receiving grill hooked up to it. Nothing at all is set to receive any VHF channels.
And I must admit, I am very happy with it's performance. Outstanding picture and sound, very rarely any artifacts or worse.

enough boasting. :-)

R.

Originally posted by TheJory
Hmm. Odd. I receive the original channel 12 as 480i, and 12.1 and 12.2 are both 720P. 12 is the old NTSC channel. 12.2 is probably just an alias for 12.1.

Here's what the KGW Weather Plus is going to look like.

Not sure where this is going to show up on the digital stream.

http://www.wkyc.com/weather/plus/