Thanks for the post Ed, you can consider me one of the "curious". :)

Look at the bright side, at least you have enough people now watching your digital broadcasts you are getting calls when it goes down. :D

So far, no problems on my end with your changes.

Earl

Shhh, the audience is listening. ;)

Hmmm, it's either a really slow day at KOIN, something went over my head, or Lee was just looking for an excuse to make his 1000th AVS post....

PS: please quit kicking the back of my seat!

ron

or....or.... could it be?

Guess I'll have to wait till I get home to find out!



ron

Ron, if your experience is similar to mine, then you'll be sorely disappointed.
I was expecting something good, but instead I have out of sync, really "scratchy" audio from KOIN right now...

...maybe it's something we won't notice until the national feed kicks in later tonight?

Earl

(edited to clarify: only 6-1 is effected, the audio is fine on 6-2)

:( Way to burst my bubble Earl :p. Well, I guess if it is what we were thinking, it's probable we wouldn't notice it till later. But I was really hoping it would somehow entail an overhaul that would have taken care of the local "scratchiness" problem too...

ron

heh!! That bubble had already broke, you just didn't know it yet. :)

Just think of Lee's bubble if we were correct!! :D


There is HD football in DD5.1 on FOX right now, so you have that to look forward too!! ;)

Shhh, the audience is listening. ;) ;)

I read this at about 10:55 and was able to see dolby digital 5.1 under the KOIN label, the first time I have seen this.

As soon as they switched back to local it was gone. I think R11 and earltp did read the tip correctly.

nater

Hi,

I'm in Newberg (north side of town, within a few miles of the fairly tall hills between Newberg and the towers). The towers are roughly 18.1 miles away. The DirecTV installer put the antenna mount on the garage, which I am using for now (after I got rid of that useless antenna). The antenna mount is very close to the dish. In the direction of the towers, there is a two-story house about 100 feet away and a neighbors garage about 10 feet away.

I put up a Channel Master 3018 today. No matter where I aim, the only one of the Big Four (KOIN, KGW, KATU, KPTV) that I get is KOIN, for which I get signal strength in the mid-sixties. I can aim way left or right of the towers and still get it pretty decently, but no matter what, I can't get anything from any of the others. I realize that I'll want a higher signal strength than that, but I'd like to solve the lack-of-signal for the others first.

Antennaweb lists the suggested antenna as large directional with a preamp. CM says that the 3018 is a large directional. I don't have a preamp yet, since some people have said that 20 miles would be too close for a preamp, and a preamp can't turn no signal into a signal. A preamp might eventually be needed, and I'm fine with that, but that is TBD after I fix the no signal problem.

The hills might be the problem, but the fact I get a signal on KOIN makes me think that isn't it. My uneducated guess is that the problem is that I'm not high enough, and the nieghbor's garage + house + whatever else is likely the problem.

My first step will be to try to move the antenna mount onto the roof above our second story rather than over the garage. Does that sound like something that could reasonably be causing this problem? Any other ideas on what it might be if it isn't that?

Thanks a lot.

No matter where I aim, the only one of the Big Four (KOIN, KGW, KATU, KPTV) that I get is KOIN, for which I get signal strength in the mid-sixties. I can aim way left or right of the towers and still get it pretty decently, but no matter what, I can't get anything from any of the others. I realize that I'll want a higher signal strength than that, but I'd like to solve the lack-of-signal for the others first.


I can't contribute anything useful to solving your problem, so I'll just remind everyone that difficulties like yours are what gave rise to Community Antenna Television well over 50 years ago. Why should everyone have to struggle to solve the same problem?

But then the rapacious capitalists bought off the crooked politicians on the cheap. And the entire concept of "public utility" was forgotten.

Welcome to the 21st century.

OK then. I will say this; last night I heard the best audio KOIN has ever put out. I also am now hearing some of the worst audio KOIN has ever put out....

Lee, I flipped on Numbe3rs at 10:00 last night and encountered some of the BEST DD 5.1 my ears have heard. Nice LFE, discrete, very clean, well mixed with strongly centered dialog. It was SWEET!! The rest of the network feed also sounded miles better than it has, with PLII doing a great job of making the commercials sound good with again, nicely centered dialog. Excellent!!

The flip side is that where the local feed was previously simply very annoying with that strange phase problem or what ever it is that causes the weird scratchy, wispiness; it is now far worse than it was :(. Still the same this morning too. It sounds different than before though, with periodic welling up of some very nasty sounding noise. It was bearable before for shows I really wanted to watch, but the way it is now I would have to say it really is pretty much unwatchable on my setup.

So, KUDOS on the new addition! It is outstanding and a thing of beauty to listen to. If you can figure out the issue on the local feed it will make KOIN the best audio in PDX. If not, I can't really say this is a step forward unfortunately. So thanks! I think....


ron

I'd like to echo Ron with the exception that I do consider it a step forward. I can always go analog for local broadcasts, but having great DD5.1 along with my HD is a definite plus!!
Thanks Lee!!

Earl

Hi,

My first step will be to try to move the antenna mount onto the roof above our second story rather than over the garage. Does that sound like something that could reasonably be causing this problem? Any other ideas on what it might be if it isn't that?

Thanks a lot.

One thing to try is to tilt the antenna up a little. I'm in West Linn on the downhill side from the towers and I get all Portland stations.

Digital reception is not a science ;) it's a lot of trial and error.

Scott

Bleh.

After mucking around on antennaweb, I discovered something interesting (to me, but obvious to all of you). I had put in my sister's address in Vancouver (and saw that they could get all the channels with a small omnidirectional). I noticed that it separately lists the digital from the non-digital. While that should have been completely obvious that that is how it should work, I didn't figure it out, because when using my address in Newberg on antennaweb, it shows exactly zero Portland digital stations... Only 18.1 miles away, but those stupid hills...

Long story short (too late), I saw all the non-digital listed as VHF, incorrectly assumed that it referred to digital and non-digital, and figured I needed an antenna that does VHF (hence the CM 3018). Now I can take this antenna back, and get the 4228, which should make my installation life much easier. Maybe I'll even manage to not fall off the roof, since it has a pretty steep slope. Heck, it should even fit in my attic, if I can get a signal there. No PAX, but I haven't had PAX with DirecTV anyways, so I won't miss it.

The great Newberg HDTV adventure continues tomorrow. Hopefully Fry's has the 4228 in stock. Might as well pick up a preamp at the same time, since antennaweb doesn't even think that a large directional + preamp can get any HD channels in Newberg. Antennaweb says it is a conservative estimate, so let's hope it is VERY conservative...

Jeremy,

You might want to check the first page of this thread again and count how many stations are switching back to their original VHF frequencies after the transition. UHF will get you by for now, but you may want to keep that VHF around for a rainy day.

FWIW, AntennaWeb doesn't [anymore?] list any digital stations for my address either (while they do for my father who lives just 3 miles due north, as the road winds), but I still get every station with relative stability (depending upon the time of year), with a 20+ year old medium VHF/UHF antenna and no pre-amp (and when AntennaWeb did list digitals available for my location, they said I needed a pre-amp). I wouldn't let AntennaWeb's absence of a listing concern you.

Ah thanks for pointing that out. If I'm reading things correctly, there is no known end for the "transition" period, correct?

I really only need to get OTA reception until DirecTV launches the new birds, switches to MPEG4, and starts offering HD locals from satellite in all areas (two years perhaps).

Jeremy,
I live in Stayton, 54 miles from the towers and I'm sure there are hills in the way and definitely trees. I pick up all the digital staytons from Portland except 10.1 & 10.2. My antenna, a winegard P8200 ( really big) is atop my 2nd story and somewhat higher up on a pole. My cable run to the TV's is split once and goes about 75 ft to each TV. Added a preamp, winegard 7525 uhf/vhf ( about 28-29 db +) , and my signals went from 70-80 to 85-95. Antennaweb doesn't think I should get all these, but I do. Use good RG-6 cable. Proper antenna pointing is critical. I also get the HD package from Directtv with the HD Tivo, but I can agree with all those who will tell you the picture quality of the OTA HD is definitely better than the compressed HD from DTV. BTW I couldn't find much in the way of decent antenna stuff at Fr*s in Wilsonville nor any advice or help and ended up buying all my stuff on the Net. The salespeople couldn't believe anyone nowdays would really be installing an antenna.
Rich

Fry's has two locations for antenna-related things, which is probably why you couldn't find anything good. The A/V section has the lesser brands + all the indoors antenna, and then the electronic components section has the higher quality antennas + preamps, etc. Depending on which salesman you talk to, they might or might not lead you where you need to go.

Jeremy,
Thanks for the info. Good to know. I asked about 5 salesmen, and was shown some small outdoor antennas and some indoor stuff, wires etc. in another. Perhaps they have also expanded their options as it was 6 months ago when I was shopping. Anyhow, for now I hope I'm done and need no more stuff. FWIW, unless you are close to the towers and worried about overload ( which it sounds like you are not ), bigger is better and higher is usually good too. Good luck with your project.
Rich

I'd like to echo Ron with the exception that I do consider it a step forward. I can always go analog for local broadcasts, but having great DD5.1 along with my HD is a definite plus!!
Thanks Lee!!

EarlEarl I wish I could go analog for the local KOIN, but from where I'm sitting 6 is my worst analog channel by far, with massive ghosting and continuous picture distortion. I watched the first quarter of the Colts/Broncos game and the DD again sounded great, although the mix didn't seem to have much crowd roar in the rear surrounds at all. Just some occasional isolated sounds mostly. Since I've never heard a DD CBS game before :) I don't know if that's the way they usually mix their games or it was just that one game. Anyway, it is very nice and I don't mean to downplay the DD at all as it's a great addition. I just really wish they could isolate the issue with the local feed. It's been going on for almost a year and is now even worse than ever...

ron

Having KOIN add DD 5.1 at this time confuses me. For the longest time Lee has been pleading "no funds" to acquire the equipment. Remember, we almost took up a collection from AVSers and ran a bake sale to buy him the deck. Now Emmis puts KOIN on the block for sale and they get 5.1. Do you think it is a strategy to make the property more attractive?

BTW, I haven't yet had the chance to hear the new sound. Maybe tonight's Letterman inaugural HD show will be a good opportunity.

Earl I wish I could go analog for the local KOIN, but from where I'm sitting 6 is my worst analog channel by far, with massive ghosting and continuous picture distortion. I watched the first quarter of the Colts/Broncos game and the DD again sounded great, although the mix didn't seem to have much crowd roar in the rear surrounds at all. Just some occasional isolated sounds mostly. Since I've never heard a DD CBS game before :) I don't know if that's the way they usually mix their games or it was just that one game. Anyway, it is very nice and I don't mean to downplay the DD at all as it's a great addition. I just really wish they could isolate the issue with the local feed. It's been going on for almost a year and is now even worse than ever...

ron
Ouch!!, maybe you finally found a reason to watch the 6-2 feed though. heh!!
The really bad "scratchy' sound seems much better today for me, maybe Lee found something? I'd like to hear if you notice that too.

I agree with you that the game didn't have a lot of action in the rears, but yeah, we need more experience to know if it's going to be normal or not. It kinda made me miss the guy that seemed to be at a lot of the FOX games that would holler into my left rear speaker at least once per game and make me jump out of my chair. :)

Earl

BTW, I haven't yet had the chance to hear the new sound. Maybe tonight's Letterman inaugural HD show will be a good opportunity.
Yikes! I nearly forgot that was tonight! :eek:

The really bad "scratchy' sound seems much better today for me, maybe Lee found something? I'd like to hear if you notice that too.I'll tell you what Earl, I flipped 6-1 on last night about 8:00 after the Blazer Courtside radio show was over and left it there until 11:30 and everything sounded good! DD 5.1 for KOQ and CSI and DD 2.0 nicely matrixed by PLII for everything in between. There were a few audio drops here and there and one (long) complete signal drop after a signal switch coming back out of a commercial toward the end of CSI, but the sound quality otherwise seemed fine. Checked again this morning and all the talking heads sounded pretty darn clear (btw, is it just me or is that Sarah Dillon a nice addition to the morning news? ;) ). What a difference clean audio makes :). I'm keeping my fingers crossed for now, but it seems they must have hit upon something finally?

So Lee, why don't you uncloak and tell us the story of how this all came about. Like Ridgefamus said, we were under the impression from you that DD wasn't anywhere on the horizon for KOIN. Anyway, thanks for keeping after everything for us. I know my KOIN watching will increase because of it (it already has-I think last night was the first ep of CSI Miami I watched since back in January or so...).

ron

Yeah, Lee, what's with these cryptic messages you're floating around? I got the following last night via AVS email path from Lee: "Shush. Don't ask, don't tell. I'll say no more."

Since 5.1 is out of the bag now, what do you suppose is to come? Guesses, anyone?

ok, I guess there's something wrong with my setup because KOIn is the only local station I get OTA that has any audio problems. all my audio is out of synch with the video (especially bad on Letterman last night) and the center channel voices come out of the left speaker insted of the center speaker! I am pretty sure its there fault an not mine because no other channel (OTA or over Directv) has that problem. Help!

Sorry, I can't help you. For me, the audio from KOIN for the past couple days, other than an occasional dropout, has been some of the best sound they've had for quite some time now.
With nothing out of sync, that I've noticed, at all.

Earl

Last night when I got home from work I flipped on the TV to check the weather on all the stations before the news was over and ended up on 6-1 which was sounding fine. Then just as they were signing off the audio lapsed back into that same type of noise that they had when they first fired up the DD last week. It didn't sound good (sounds like it was just coming from the surrounds, and lip sync was ok though Robert). I then remembered the US Open was on UHD in HD (geez, you can hardly call it HD on D* these days-their PQ is pathetic :(), so I switched it over to that and went to work out a bit. When I flipped it back to 6-1 at 9:00 to watch RS: INXS the audio was fine again, except they still seem to be plagued with those "new" audio dropouts here and there. So it looks like there are still some issues they need to iron out. Hopefully they can get it all dialed in and running consistently soon.

ron

I called and left a message with engineering and then emailed too but no one has responded. I guess we HD users are second class citizens.

I tried flipping to watch Letterman in HD last night, and all I got was a black picture with no sound. The signal was fine, but it seemed nothing was there. This was just after midnight.

I had that happen also. Ended up watching the analog version. :(


R.



I tried flipping to watch Letterman in HD last night, and all I got was a black picture with no sound. The signal was fine, but it seemed nothing was there. This was just after midnight.

I tried flipping to watch Letterman in HD last night, and all I got was a black picture with no sound. The signal was fine, but it seemed nothing was there. This was just after midnight.During CSI last night there were several more long signal drops too coming out of commercials (along with the periodic several-second audio drops ramdonly interspersed). Just about the time you finally get all your inputs etc switched over to the analog signal so you can follow what's going on in the show, the digital signal pops back up.... grrr. Since the inclusion of the DD equipment their switching is all hosed up now.


ron

The tennis is sounding very nice in 5.1. And with 6.2 shut down the PQ is much better today. Thanks KOIN crew.


ron

The tennis is sounding very nice in 5.1. And with 6.2 shut down the PQ is much better today. Thanks KOIN crew.


ron
The sound presents an interesting point of perspective. I hear the far court ball strikes predominantly in my right rear. Near court ball strikes are in the fronts. A lines-person's call from the far court was also in the rear (left). So I'm not really sure where I am supposed to be sitting in the stadium in regards to the picture.

Any body know how reception up in the west hills is?

I've got a buddy who is going to add direct TV HD, but deperately wants the standard broadcast which apperantly is only OTA with direct TV these days.

He's up right off miller and barnes.

I checked antenna web for him and it says medium directional.

I'm just wondering if anyone with direct TV could share their experience.

sorry for not reading 200pages of thread to find an answer but my broadband is down and I'm on dialup for a while.

I would willing to day that unless you are down in a gulch or dale of sorts and can see the towers just fine you would be able to get a very strong signal, perhaps even too strong.

FYI -

KGW 8.3 is broadcasting a feed from WWL - New Orleans.

Brilliant !!!!

Helps a bunch that there are both Belo properties, but someone clearly was doing some thinking.


BTW - Rest in Peace Gilligan....

Maynard G. Krebs lives!


ron

With D*tv with a hd reciever you get the HD networks from LA (West coast DNF's) when you subscribe to the HD package. Before last week we also got the HD feeds from NY, but as of the change all of us West Coasters lost our east coast HD feeds (SHRIVA law or something) and most lost their east coast sd feeds also unless grandfathered in. The locals from Portland SD are ava, and charged out seperately. If he is getting the HR 10-250 it has a built in digital tuner but not analog, so by adding a OTA antenna for UHF he'll pick up the HD'S (2.1, 6.1 etc) ota but not channel 2, 6, 8 etc. If you need more specific info let me know. What reciever is he getting?
Rich

KGW 8.3 is broadcasting a feed from WWL - New Orleans.

Brilliant !!!!
This is fantastic coverage! I never would have known. Wow, they just got some water service on the East bank but don't drink it, even if it's boiled.

Wouldn't it be great if KGW told people they could watch the hurricane coverage direct from WWL on digital channel, uh, what are "digital" channels again? :rolleyes:

This is fantastic coverage! I never would have known. Wow, they just got some water service on the East bank but don't drink it, even if it's boiled.

Wouldn't it be great if KGW told people they could watch the hurricane coverage direct from WWL on digital channel, uh, what are "digital" channels again? :rolleyes:

KGW did make an announcement during their local news segment at 5:00. They also have this feed streamed at their web site. I agree most of this probably went way over the heads of the majority of viewers: you need a digital receiver, "streamed" on our web site, etc. But the access to this for us is a bonus. I didn't realize how many people are back with power down there. Kudo's to KGW and especially to WWL! They should take down the weather on 8-2 and put that bandwidth to improve the WWL feed.

Now that's a great use of a sub-channel, thumbs up KGW, from me too!!

But it's like one step forward, two steps back. KATU went missing for much of the night and KOIN has their audio problem back again. (and with the new season is just around the corner...)

Earl

KGW did make an announcement during their local news segment at 5:00. They also have this feed streamed at their web site. I agree most of this probably went way over the heads of the majority of viewers: you need a digital receiver, "streamed" on our web site, etc. But the access to this for us is a bonus. I didn't realize how many people are back with power down there. Kudo's to KGW and especially to WWL! They should take down the weather on 8-2 and put that bandwidth to improve the WWL feed.

Is everybody out there in HD land getting 8.3? I just get a black screen.
I assume that means the signal isn't strong enough for my receiver.

Bummer. :confused:

J.

If you can get 8.1, you can get 8.3. It's the same signal. You might have to rescan the channels for your receiver to see KGW's subchannels.

Looks like they shut 8.3 off for the night. There's no video stream and the audio stream is slient.

It was especially bad during Rockstar INXS... sounded like some idiot constantly playing the shaker... Anyone? Seemed fine during Letterman...

Just got the HD OTA tuned in last night, and thought something was wrong with my new tv when the sound went a little sketchy on koin, glad to know it isnt just me. I am over in N Portland about 4.5 miles from the towers and am using a little antenna that was in the garage. everything comes in perfect with the exception of the PAX stations... oh well.

Looks like they shut 8.3 off for the night. There's no video stream and the audio stream is slient.

I discovered that. Now it's coming in loud and clear.
Oh well, to quick to grumble. :rolleyes: :D
Thanks.



J.

I guess ATSC receivers aren't designed to handle missing video streams very well. I knew there was no video because PID 81 was tagged "FFFFFFFF" which is "No Video." :) You'd think receivers would say "No Video" besides a blank screen.

lost KOIN from 9:30 to 9:45 last night during Big Brother (or was it 8:30 to 8:45?)

KOIN is easily the worst HD channel in town. their audio is horrible (always out of synch for me) and now it's got that annoying shaker noise too!

IF ANYONE FORM KOIN READS THIS BOARD, YOU OUGHT TO BE FIRED!

The KOIN synch is usually off and tonight on the Style show it was so far off I watched in SD rather than put up with it.

They seem to have the synch ok for SD but the HD 6.1 needs a lot of work.

nater

Did anyone have any problems getting a good signal for Monday(actually Thursday) Night Football last night? I kept losing the signal on all three of my HD tuners, I finally gave up and watched it on Dtv. All of the ABC signal problems seemed to clear up after the game was over. I had similar problems last year with MNF, is there something different about it's broadcast?

Football on ABC was gorgeous for me last night. My first HD football experience! very very pleased.

My HD Tivo would lose the signal every 5 minutes or so. almost as if someone would stand in front of my antenna. I didn't really lose it completely, it would just get all blocky for a second.

Looked good from the Pearl w/Silver Sensor

I had no problem what so ever with the broadcast. It looked and sounded great. I think HD can really shine during a sporting event. The difference between HD and SD during a sporting event is much more apparent then during a regular show.

Not troubles at all up north in Battle Ground recieving MNF via ATSC OTA. It looked great.

Well it was fairly windy, maybe the reception problems were coming from that fir tree in my front yard. I guess I'll see how it goes Monday.

Did anyone have any problems getting a good signal for Monday(actually Thursday) Night Football last night?

I also had this problem and was looking in this forum today to see if anyone else had it.

I had some friends over for the game to show off my HD and the only HD channel that had problems was KATU. All the others were fine. So I wonder if maybe KATU was temporarily running 50% power or something like that. My setup is using a Silver Sensor going thru a number of my walls plus neighbor's house and trees, so I don't always get great results. Also there was some mention of increased interference due to sunspot activity. Maybe that had something to do with it.

Fortunately my Directv picture is usually not too compressed during MNF, so the game looked pretty good.

I couldn't tell you if KATU reception improved after the game. When I weigh DirecTivo versus HD, my TiVo is about 100x more useful to me. So other than for experimenting the only time I watch HD is during live sporting events.

Also there was some mention of increased interference due to sunspot activity. Maybe that had something to do with it.
Sunspots can affect UHF frequencies? :eek:

Sunspots can affect UHF frequencies? :eek:

I don't know. I'm just throwing out ideas. Hassles like this are why Community Antenna Television was invented (before the government stopped requiring cable to operate in the public interest and started allowing cable to screw their customers).

The puzzling things to me were:

1) I generally don't have problems with KATU but did Thursday night.

2) I had no problem with KOIN. Same antenna, same power, similar broadcast frequency.

3) I had no problem with any other HD channels during the game (though I didn't linger too long on any particular channel).

Were you have signal strength problems or were you having breakups? In digital these can be two separate problems.

At times I've received stations at 100% but the stuff that they were sending was screwed up. A great example of that was last night. I receive KGW at 98% but after midnight last night KGW's encoder apparently kept reseting itself during commercial breaks. I could tell because the PTS's kept restarting at zero and the application I use does not like non-consecutive PTS's. Most commercial ATSC receivers probably don't care.

Just lost 6.1 during the halftime for about 15 minutes. Anyone else?
Rich

Just lost 6.1 during the halftime for about 15 minutes. Anyone else?
Rich

Yes, here, too. Not sure for how long, though, but I noticed it was gone. It's back now.

What is KPTV putting out for the Seahawk's game - widescreen SD? I thought Fox was committed to all games in HD?? :confused:

My D*tv guide does not list the seahawks game in HD, but the packers game next is listed HD.
Rich

Just lost 6.1 during the halftime for about 15 minutes. Anyone else?
There was another outage just as the fourth quarter started so we missed a Miami touchdown.

Were you have signal strength problems or were you having breakups? In digital these can be two separate problems.


I don't know for sure, but I think mostly signal strength problems. LG LST-4200A puts "NO SIGNAL" on screen when it happens. I wasn't seeing macroblocking, pixellation, etc. But the signal strength display on the tuner is inadequate. It's a horizontal bar graph but only seems to have 3 positions: NO, MID, HIGH. Usually on MID for me.

I think the smartest thing would be for me to ditch my silver sensor and hang something like the DB2 from Antennas Direct in my garage. That will give me more antenna gain plus bypass all my interior walls.

The original poster about MNF said "losing signal" so perhaps he also was seeing signal strength problems.

What is KPTV putting out for the Seahawk's game - widescreen SD? I thought Fox was committed to all games in HD?? :confused:
Fox is commited to only eight games in HD and the rest will be in widescreen. Fox broadcasts way more than eight games on Sundays.

Fox is commited to only eight games in HD and the rest will be in widescreen. Fox broadcasts way more than eight games on Sundays.

Actually, they only broadcasted eight this week and only broadcast five next sunday. In fact, for the rest of the season, the max they do in one week is seven.

(Unless you meant committed to eight total for the rest of the season, but I don't think so)

With the bit sharing Fox does those games are pathetic examples of HD IMO. 6.1 football (when it was up :( ) was very nice. The games on FOX looked pretty much about the quality of upconverts.

ron

Fox is commited to only eight games in HD and the rest will be in widescreen. Fox broadcasts way more than eight games on Sundays.

Last night I saw over here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=579280) , that Fox is doing just 6 games of their allotment each week in HD. This was posted by the couple of guys who are engineers at Fox affilates and substantiated by several others.

R11: Thanks for your observation. I was hopeful Fox would have had the wherewithall to improve their HD in the offseason. Oh, well. Glad I get KOIN. Their audio was just terrific, IMO, during the Miami game. Can't wait for CBS to start their coverage of SEC games on Saturdays. Those school bands sounded great last season in PL, and now ....! :D

I don't know for sure, but I think mostly signal strength problems. LG LST-4200A puts "NO SIGNAL" on screen when it happens. I wasn't seeing macroblocking, pixellation, etc. But the signal strength display on the tuner is inadequate. It's a horizontal bar graph but only seems to have 3 positions: NO, MID, HIGH. Usually on MID for me.

I think the smartest thing would be for me to ditch my silver sensor and hang something like the DB2 from Antennas Direct in my garage. That will give me more antenna gain plus bypass all my interior walls.

The original poster about MNF said "losing signal" so perhaps he also was seeing signal strength problems.

It was signal strength problems(at least tuners kept losing signal) that I was having on the Thursday. Everything worked fine for Monday night's game, except the picture would occasionally switch to SD for a few seconds for some reason.

Did anyone else notice that 6-2 was carrying the Roberts confirmation hearing today?

While I'm still not a fan of sub-channels, my objections do start to wane when they carry alternate programming, especially during off primetime hours.

Earl

By the way, we're still at 1/2 power with our DTV transmitter. We have been having lengthy discussions with manufacturers about our short tube life and we are taking our time to make the most cost effective long-term decision about which option to choose. One of the options would cost us in excess of $500K to upgrade the transmitter to more energy efficient tubes but with the relatively low electrical rates we enjoy in the PNW, it doesn't seem to have economic benefits for us. I'll post on here when we do finally go back to full power. In the meantime, for those "legal eagles", yes, I have filed with the FCC for an STA (Special Temporary Authority) to let me continue operating at reduced power :)

Pat Shearer, CSTE
Chief Engineer
KWBP

Hi Pat,

I haven't seen any posts from you since this one, so I'm just wondering if you are still at half power.

I get very good (at least considering that the base of Chehalem Mountain is between my house and the towers) reception on the other two Sylvan site stations, but a poor signal from WB. I know there can be other causes, but I'd like to find out if this is a possible cause.

My wife watches four shows on WB each week, so if I can get a reliable signal for that channel, she might even admit that my time and money spent is all worth it :)

Thanks.

I read that CBS is going to have digital channel CBS-2 active no later that Fall 2006, with it's own programming. There is also potential of a CBS-3, 4, and 5.
Here is a link to the article...

http://money.excite.com/jsp/nw/nwdt_rt.jsp?section=news&cat=INDUSTRY&feed=dji&news_id=dji-00106220050914&date=20050914

:D

J.

I curse thee Les Moonves that a 1000 (highly pixelated) camels tromp through your living room while you are trying to watch CSI....


ron

and that each one pauses to make a deposit on its way through....

for this you need HD and smell TV for the camels LOL

Is anyone getting sound from KOIN now?
I have no audio through either my TV speakers or my SS.
The same thing happened last night too...

edited to add....It's just 6-1 that has no audio, 6-2 and analog 6 are fine.
The CBS preview show had audio, but when they switched to HD for Yes, Dear, the audio went missing.

It appears they must be trying to fix it, or else things are blowing up. :)
I am now getting a brief buzz and momentary drops back to SD for Yes, Dear.

Now they are back to SD for Rockstar:INXS and I have audio again, we'll see if it holds up when CSI:NY starts.

It's gone again now that CSI:NY has started

(As I was typing this the switch back to SD brought back the audio)

whoosh.... ;)

I read that CBS is going to have digital channel CBS-2 active no later that Fall 2006, with it's own programming.Goody, sounds like CBS needs a weather channel before NBC and ABC corner the weather channel market.

There is also potential of a CBS-3, 4, and 5..Wow, three more weather channels! I'm glad I have a DVR to record CSI because I'll be watching nothing but weather channels all evening long! :D

If you're waiting, I have CSI in HD and with DD5.1 audio tonight!! :D

Anyone want to guess on the programming that would be available on CBS 2? I would imagine it would be crap which is appropriate because that is what it will cause their OTA digital signals to look like.

Anyone want to guess on the programming that would be available on CBS 2? I would imagine it would be crap which is appropriate because that is what it will cause their OTA digital signals to look like.

Here is what the story mentioned...
'Possible programming might include national news, local news and sports, the Viacom (VIA) operating officer said. The network is working on ways to exploit the advertising opportunities that would be available on the additional channels.'

Perhaps an 'Infomercial Channel'? :eek:
That would be an automatic blocked channel , for me. :D

J.

Way back at the end of 1994, it was reported that Larry Tisch, President of CBS hated this new digital multicasting concept broadcasters were tossing around. According to the book "Defining Vision" he often said "HDTV will cost me some money. But multi-channel will kill me." Back then it sounded like the networks were hoping that their HDTV programming would leave little bandwidth for subchannels.

Obviously that plan didn't work. Now it sounds like the networks are trying to give their affiliates something, anything, to fill those subchannels before they start looking for subchannel programming on their own. There's no reason that CBS has to create an infomercial channel. The affiliates can get that programming themselves if they want it.

Kind of off topic here, but cable systems don't want to carry the subchannels anyway. My guess is DTV HD won't carry them either. So what's the point? Not only is digital a miniscule market right now, but OTA digital is even smaller.

Kind of off topic here, but cable systems don't want to carry the subchannels anyway. My guess is DTV HD won't carry them either. So what's the point? Not only is digital a miniscule market right now, but OTA digital is even smaller.

All major cities in the US have most of their channels broadcasting in OTA Digital.
There are lots more OTA digital channels than on DTV or cable. (at this time)
Plus they are free, unlike HD cable or SAT.
Besides, the discussion about carraige requirements of OTA digital, on cable or sattelite is still be being discussed in congress.


J.

Besides, the discussion about carraige requirements of OTA digital, on cable or sattelite is still be being discussed in congress.


I sure hope you're right about that, but I'm sceptical. I think it's an outrage and a disgrace that cable can get away with NOT carrying the subchannels. The whole point of cable used to be Community Antenna Television. But, obviously, too much money was at stake for things to have remained that way.

And then there's the whole KOIN "Show me the money" thing. WTF is that about?

I'm a Capitalist Pig, but many years ago I was taught in school how public utilities were to operate in the public interest. What happened to that? Once KOIN starts paying fair market value for the spectrum they're using, then, and only then, should they be allowed to demand money for carriage. IMO, anyway.

Has anyone else been having breakup and outright no-reception issues with KOPB (PBS) digital channels (both 10.1 and 10.2) in the past two days?

HZ

Not in Woodburn. I've tuned them in but can't say I haven't watched more than 10 minutes at a time except for a few nights ago when they had a story on about the bridge over the river Kwai and I had no issues with that show.

Over here in Sandy, I was having problems with OPB yesterday, the audio was way out of sinc. There were several drops of signal, but they came back within 20 seconds or so.

Having said that, I have had that same problem with 6.1 and 8.1 also, but those have been off and on for several weeks already.

I sort of suspect some the problems I am seeing is due to my receiver is going out. We took a big power hit 3 weeks ago, and ever since we are having, hangups, freezes, power on-off doesn't work, etc. etc. I am in the market for a new one.

I noticed there is a Forum format change. Instead of the black background and all the fancy stuff, there is a white background, not as many options writing messages.
Was this foretold? :)

Did you accidently go to the PDA or mobile version of the Forum? Once you do that, you have to do something to switch back to the fancy version.

At the bottom of the page there's a dropdown menu, I have mine set for "AVS White"

Hormoz, I haven't noticed any droputs on OPB but after I read your post I checked and my signal level for OPB has dropped a bit. I suspect environmental changes, fall is fast approaching.

Earl,

Thanks for the feedback. OPB digital seems to have returned to normal, but was pretty unwatchable for most of Fri. evening and most of Saturday.

Here's to hoping that the string of signal dropouts and audio-synch issues are temporary, and "season-related!"

Hi Pat,

I haven't seen any posts from you since this one, so I'm just wondering if you are still at half power.

I get very good (at least considering that the base of Chehalem Mountain is between my house and the towers) reception on the other two Sylvan site stations, but a poor signal from WB. I know there can be other causes, but I'd like to find out if this is a possible cause.

My wife watches four shows on WB each week, so if I can get a reliable signal for that channel, she might even admit that my time and money spent is all worth it :)

Thanks.
We're still running at reduced power while continuing to seek the most cost effective in the long run replacement for our failed tube. Since it is DTV, not analog, it doesn't get the same attention. However, the decision is being focused around long-term since we all know analog is going away and the DTV system will become extremely important.

In the meantime, I have plenty of other work to do since we are partnering with KGW for a local news product. I am busy installing the equipment needed to bring their studio feed into our building, upconvert it to HD and splice it into our feed from Seattle. To my knowledge, we are the first in the country to do it this way which makes it fun, challenging and a bit scary all at the same time.

Last night we aired Lord of the Rings and I didn't get a chance to check it out. It was supposed to be HD with 5.1 sound but I got an e-mail from a viewer this morning stating that the sound was not 5.1. I'll be checking into this but I was wondering what anyone else has to say about it. We should be broadcasting both 5.1 surround and plain 2 channel stereo. Your feedback is encouraged.

Pat Shearer, CSTE
Chief Engineer
KWBP

I may be wrong but I don't see why audio sync should have anything to do with seasonal reception probs. I stopped on 10-1 for a couple minutes a few days ago and the sync was way off then. Reception was OK for me but there was a pretty fair amount of pixelation due to their split signal.


ron

Last night we aired Lord of the Rings and I didn't get a chance to check it out. It was supposed to be HD with 5.1 sound but I got an e-mail from a viewer this morning stating that the sound was not 5.1. I'll be checking into this but I was wondering what anyone else has to say about it. We should be broadcasting both 5.1 surround and plain 2 channel stereo. Your feedback is encouraged.

Pat Shearer, CSTE
Chief Engineer
KWBP

Pat,

I actually watched the movie and have two comments about it.

1) I wish it would have been shown in its original aspect ratio rather than the cropped (or zoomed) version. At times I thought it was actually the 4x3 P&S version fitted to a 16x9 screen! but it might have been an optical illusion on my part.

2) The PQ seemed to be on par with the DVD version, which is a significant improvement over the recent cable/SAT broadcasts on Encore, but that's all I could compare it with.

Aside from very minor momentary glitches, I thought your technicians did a great job pulling it off.

HZ

I may be wrong but I don't see why audio sync should have anything to do with seasonal reception probs. I stopped on 10-1 for a couple minutes a few days ago and the sync was way off then. Reception was OK for me but there was a pretty fair amount of pixelation due to their split signal.


ron

Ron,

I thought the pixelation may have to do with the "seasonal" effect. I don't know why it should! The signal breakup was pretty bad on both OPB digital channels. Evidently they must have done something to make it work fine as of Sunday.

HZ

At the bottom of the page there's a dropdown menu, I have mine set for "AVS White"

That's what it was! :D How that happened I haven't a clue. :rolleyes:

Thanx;

J.

Pat,

I also recorded and watched some of your showing and thought is was pretty good (despite it not beeing switched into 16:9 until slightly after the credits - I can't wait until all the HD on/off swithching is no longer manual).

I too would have rather had the original aspect ratio letter boxed. I probably won't keep or finish the recording since the DVDs do a nicer job of capturing the real feel of the movie with the wider aspect.

Didn't notice the sound -- but I hadn't turned on my receiver when I was double checking that the recording had started ok.

1) I wish it would have been shown in its original aspect ratio rather than the cropped (or zoomed) version. At times I thought it was actually the 4x3 P&S version fitted to a 16x9 screen! but it might have been an optical illusion on my part.
All widescreen versions of Lord of the Rings, even those in the theater, are cropped from Super 35mm which has a native 4:3 aspect ratio. It's usually shot with the intention of cropping a 2.35 anamorphic print from it for the theaters but they can also crop a 1.85 or 1.78 version from it. It will have more stuff vertically (you'll usually see more space above the actors' heads) and you're seeing everything that was in the theater print.

Now when they chop the sides off of a 2.35 print to make it fit the 16:9 screen, that's a rip off.

I've come to the conclusion that most of the stations in town really could care less about us early adopters of HD right now. KOIN has the absolute worst audio on all the stations and some of the other channels (WB is one of them) that I can't get a consistant signal on. (now I know why, they are too cheap to replace some equipment) remember, analog is still what pays their bills. I can't wait until they turn the analog signal off and then they have to listen to our complaints. I spent way to much money on my equipment to get this kind of service.

We're still running at reduced power while continuing to seek the most cost effective in the long run replacement for our failed tube. Since it is DTV, not analog, it doesn't get the same attention. However, the decision is being focused around long-term since we all know analog is going away and the DTV system will become extremely important.

Thanks for the update.

I've come to the conclusion that most of the stations in town really could care less about us early adopters of HD right now.
Dude, you need to read the real DTV horror stories that are happening in other cities. Lots of stations have filed endless FCC petitions avoid the consequences of not broadcasting full power yet (take a look at Denver's HD saga). There are lots of stations out there that have treated HD as some sort of fad that will soon pass and have committed to broadcasting DTV in 480i, probably because this DTV fad will pass too. Consider that our UPN station broadcasts in HD while lots of people don't even have an analog UPN station in their area.

I blame the corporation that owns them.

This reminded me that KOIN is for sale, along with all the other TV stations that Emmis owns. So I did a little googling and found

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/050825/emms8-k.html

Unfortunately KOIN is not part of the following sale. I say unfortunately because the "new boss" can't possibly be worse than the "old boss", right? Key exerpt:

On August 19, 2005, Emmis Communications Corporation (the "Company"), through its subsidiaries, entered into three definitive agreements to sell substantially all of the assets of nine of its television stations to Gray Television Group, Inc., Journal Broadcast Corporation and LIN Television Corporation for aggregate cash consideration of $681 million (subject to customary adjustments and prorations).

I disagree with you about KOIN. Do they occasionally have problems, yes, but they also were the first station broadcasting HD in Portland and they have some of the oldest equipment.

Lee has been very responsive whenever I've sent him e-mail about an issue I've had. My most recent example was a loss of audio during HD broadcasts. The problem lasted for just one day after I contacted Lee.
I don't have the "major" lipsync problems you keep talking about.
They were finally able to correct the "buzz" in the audio they had.
Lee found a way to add DD5.1 even after he felt there would be no way with their current budget.
They shut down the SD sub-channel during HD sports.
Lee is the one that started this thread and takes the time to update the info in the first post. He also has another site where he posts new HD news every day.

I suppose I may feel differently if I had to rely on cable for my HD, but I don't mind getting something for free that Comcast wants to charge me for.

Earl

Oh and as far as the complaint about it being solely KOIN's fault Comcast doesn't carry them...
Much of that argument falls flat for me when Comcast has the agreement where it could carry KPDX(UPN) HD but refuses to as it wouldn't be profitable enough for them.
Where's the bitching and complaing about that?
That is solely on Comcast.

What happens when they switch over to VHF? Do I need to replace my Silver Sensor because its only UHF?

as long as I'm on a roll... heh!!

If they really didn't care about us, Ed and Pat wouldn't be posting here with updates and working so hard behind the scenes and being so responsive to issues that arise.

Alan at KATU even completely shut down that World News Now sub-channel when he found out it was causing problems for some KATU-DTV viewers.

It may not be a perfect digital world yet, but to say they don't care, is wrong and dismisses all the work and time our local engineers put into giving we few, whom are actually able to see what they do, HDTV.

What happens when they switch over to VHF? Do I need to replace my Silver Sensor because its only UHF?

Do you really need to ask? ;)

(In reality though, maybe not. I'm able to pick up PAX (VHF channel 4) with my Silver Sensor)

Oh and as far as the complaint about it being solely KOIN's fault Comcast doesn't carry them...Actually, if I understand the situation correctly, it's really not even a KOIN thing at all anyway. It's an Emmis thing.

Hmmm, now that you mention it Earl, I haven't really noticed any of the bad audio on the local 6-1 feed for at least the last few days. That's a very good thing :). I'm still getting those periodic, several second, complete audio drops though.


ron

Actually, if I understand the situation correctly, it's really not even a KOIN thing at all anyway. It's an Emmis thing.

Hmmm, now that you mention it Earl, I haven't really noticed any of the bad audio on the local 6-1 feed for at least the last few days. That's a very good thing :). I'm still getting those periodic, several second, complete audio drops though.


ron
Ron, I do believe you understand correctly, it is an Emmis not KOIN thing, thanks for pointing that out.
(though Comcasts part in it should not be dismissed) ;)


I'm still getting those brief audio drops too. Lee is aware of them, but so far hasn't been able to track down the source, though he is continuing to work on it.
Other than that, the audio has been sounding great for me.

Earl

Yes, the 5.1 addition has made a world of difference. Their old setup didn't play nice at all with the DD encoded feeds CBS net began sending last fall. It really took most of the enjoyment out of the whole CBS '05 season for me. Much more looking forward to this season now!

It always gets short shrift compared to the great PQ possible from HD, but I've really come to appreciate quality surround sound as a key benefit from DTV. If I had to pick one it would be the better PQ of course, but good audio really completes the package and elevates the experience to a different level IMO.


ron

Earl makes a good point about our local digital stations' folks. Granted that the digital (HD) landscape is not perfect, but I suppose this is true with any emerging technology. Add to that the juggling act these guys, with limited budget and manpower, have to perform balancing the needs of analog (vast majority of viewers) and the digital transition, then perhaps we should give them the benefit of the doubt.

Having been following DTV, and this forum, for the past 2 years or so, there is clearly a palpable improvement in the OTA-HD situation. Now, I suppose this issue, in the grand scheme of all the other events going on around us, is really not that important, is it?

HZ

I'm still getting Letterman's audio 300ms before the video as recently as last night. I emailed Lee about it on Friday so he's probably still working on it. Other than that, the prime time audio has been great, especially the 5.1 programs.

If you want bad audio, just listen to any ESPN production on KATU like the first NFL game last night. Their 5.1 encoder (which they never turn off) turns ESPN's "Circle Surround" into a stereo mess.

Hey, I'm new to HDTV and all the "stuff" that goes with it. I'm looking at getting DirecTV and was looking at getting the HR10-250 unit (HD PVR). So I know that the HR10-250 will get the HD channels that are offered via the satellite and I can then use the RF IN Antenna to get the OTA HD stations in Portland. Right? Is this the way to go? As I said I'm new to this. I've been watching TV normally thru regular Antenna and looking to make the jump to HD and Satellite. But since I live in the Bethany area, we now have FiOS and I've talked with the Verizon Installer and it looks like we will also be getting IPTV soon. So, is this something to wait for also?

I'm looking for some help as now that I'm jumping into HD, Satellite or IPTV it's a big pond!

Thanks,

GWN21
John

I'm still getting Letterman's audio 300ms before the video as recently as last night. I emailed Lee about it on Friday so he's probably still working on it. Other than that, the prime time audio has been great, especially the 5.1 programs.


I don't think it is limited to just Letterman. I seem to notice it on other programs. I briefly turned on NCIS to see if it was off, and I noticed that it was. Thankfully it is just slightly off, though.

Letterman's audio was only a little over 100ms off last night (you probably wouldn't have noticed if you weren't looking for it) so things are getting better. Some stations do care about us HD viewers.

gwn21,
If your TV has a built-in ATSC tuner you could just grab an antenna (UHF) and watch the local broadcast HD for free while you research your other options.

how hard is it for them (KOIN) to fix that though?

Letterman's audio was only a little over 100ms off last night (you probably wouldn't have noticed if you weren't looking for it) so things are getting better. Some stations do care about us HD viewers.

Yep, it is definitely getting a lot better than it was. Thanks Lee!

GWN21,
Here's a great reference and much info about the HR10-250. I have two units and love them. I do however not have access to cable.http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=259536
Rich

how hard is it for them (KOIN) to fix that though?
Well, let's see. They have network programming, syndicated programming and live programming all with their own synchronization problems since they have to be encoded to MPEG-2. Then the network sends them DD2.0 and DD5.1 format audio which have individual delays and synchronization problems. And they've probably designed these things so it's impossible to adjust one setting without affecting two other settings and you won't know the effects of those until the next day. It's probably not hard but plenty time-consuming.

And considering that KGW still has auto sync problems with Leno after all these years, it can't be that easy.

GWN21,

I have DTV HD service and get my local channels OTA and it is great way to go to get plenty of HD programming.

Thanks for the information. I did a lot of reading and think I'll go with the HR10-250. I'll be stopping here and reading this forum also. THANKS!!!

GWN21
John

Was anyone else experiencing sound drop-outs during Destination Lost last night on KATU? I switched over to just listening through the front speakers of the TV before Lost came on, since that audio was just fine.

I've never bothered to listen to anything on KATU in 5.1 before, but I'm almost certain that it's not a receiver issue as I've listened to a couple of programs on Fox in 5.1. Would crappy reception affect audio but not video? I have a Silver Sensor which other than the occasional passing car seems to do just fine. We're located near Concordia in NE Portland (if it matters).

togdon

I noticed it also. Wether it was KATU or ABC not sure. It also was cutting in and out of 5.1 during the Invasion pilot after Lost.

Steve

The effects of crappy reception depends on your receiver. Receivers do a great job of recovering and ingoring bad AC-3 packets without making awful noise. It's possible your receiver was having trouble figuring out what format it was receiving and falling back to DD2.0.

There are some comments in the MyHD 130 thread about sound sync issues from Lost this week. Not quite ready for PRIME time it is. But when it is very bad if I go back to an analog station with "stereo" sound, now that sure sounds flat compared to poor 5.1 and when the 5.1 is working it is good enough to understand what we are looking for!

nater

I watched Lost with a cheap Linux card and free software and I didn't have any sync problems. I do pass the audio straight to a receiver through SP/DIF so there's not much chance of the software screwing it up.

anyone else have problems with KGW (NBC)? I am getting a wildly fluctuating signal on that station (8-1). I get this over OTA with a Silver Sensor in Tualatin

I have a strange problem with KGW. During after some commercials, they start sending hundreds of malformed packets. When this stops, often I see the NBC peacock which is the filler video NBC sends when a station is airing local commercials. After this the PTS has been reset to zero which indicates the encoder has been reset (I think).

I don't know what this does to a commercial ATSC receiver but my free open source ATSC player doesn't know what to make of this and the video is jumpy afterwards. I should probably save these and figure out how to make it recover from them.

anyone else have problems with KGW (NBC)? I am getting a wildly fluctuating signal on that station (8-1). I get this over OTA with a Silver Sensor in Tualatin

Probably a multipathing problem. Try moving your antenna to various other locations.

But, yes, I have that problem with KGW and KPTV.

it just started doing this though.

Signal paths can change around this time of the year as the leaves on the trees start to dry up. These new paths can make multipath problems appear out of nowhere. Your receiver may not have been receiving enough multipath to cause a problem before, but now it is and it can't make sense of the signal any more. That's one attribute of digital transmission: either it works perfectly or it completely falls to pieces.

it just started doing this though.

KGW apparently re-activated 8.3 for hurricane Rita coverage.
Perhaps there are signal strength issues with having 3 digital channels going at the same time.

J.

That's not possible. ATSC was carefully designed so the data will always require the same signal strength no matter what data is being sent. The encoder multiplies every byte by a random number (which is reversed by the receiver) so the signal will always have the same number of ones and zeros, even if most of the data is null packets.

Anyone else missing the audio portion of the KY/FLA football game on KOIN-DT right now?

Edit: Audio on now at 12:45.

Yeah, there's no sound there. Switch your receiver to SAP audio if it has it because that's working..

I have just gotten an HDTV card for my HTPC, and have started working on getting good reception. Our house has had a large-directional all-band UHF/VHF antenna on the roof since we bought it, so I went out and tried to aim it to maximize reception. What is weird is that I only got reasonable reception with the antenna pointed exactly backwards (away) from the transmitters (I used antennaweb to determine approximate aiming, then the signal-meter on the card to fine-tune it). I am able to tune in all the local channels, but get quite a bit of glitching due to marginal SNR/signal-strength. I live along hwy 30 between Portland and Scappoose, so I'm right up against the hills, which probably explains my reception issues. My problem is that I can't find any useful info on accurately aiming antennas. Do they need to be level, or should they be angled up/down? I don't even know if I have the right kind of antenna for good HD reception (It is certainly a large all-band with a corner reflector, but the VHF Yagi-part is swept forward...forming an arrow shape...and just about all of the all-band antennas I've seen have these straight instead). Do I need a pre-amp? As you see I have lots of questions, which I'd like to get answered before I get up on my roof and start mucking around (I can rotate the antenna-mast from my deck, but anything else will require getting up on the roof). Can someone recommend either a good resource for this type of information, or someone local who either does installs, or caries the equipment (and knowledge) I'd need? (Not sure if I'm allowed to ask that here..I hope so)

AntennaWeb.org (http://www.antennaweb.org) is the first place to check. Enter your zip code or location and it will tell you what kind of antenna you need and where to point it.

Some of the old all-band antennas I see slowly falling off my neighbors' roofs seem to have the UHF section on the opposite end of the larger VHF section, pointed in the wrong direction. I think that's because they were put up there back when there weren't any UHF stations on the hills. Maybe the UHF part of the antenna isn't really pointed backwards.

I don't know what software you're using but my Linux card came with a simple utility that prints a a channel's signal strength every second. When I've had to adjust my outdoor antenna, I just take my laptop up to the roof, telnet into the Linux box through the Wifi card and adjust the antenna until the numbers are right.

Are other people able to get KOIN right now? My signal strength for KOIN just dropped to 0, while the other stations on the same tower are still normal.

Thanks.

Nevermind. KOIN is back up now.

I'm not sure if the problem was on my end or theirs, but I'll say this just in case... Thanks Lee.

AntennaWeb.org (http://www.antennaweb.org) is the first place to check. Enter your zip code or location and it will tell you what kind of antenna you need and where to point it.

Yep, that's how I figured out about where to point it, and it says I need Blue/Red antenna types (i.e. large directional, possibly with pre-amp), which is what I have (without the preamp)

Some of the old all-band antennas I see slowly falling off my neighbors' roofs seem to have the UHF section on the opposite end of the larger VHF section, pointed in the wrong direction. I think that's because they were put up there back when there weren't any UHF stations on the hills. Maybe the UHF part of the antenna isn't really pointed backwards.

Well, the corner reflector is pointing the wrong way (everything I've seen shows the inside of the corer pointed at the transmitter, and mine tunes best with it backwards)


I don't know what software you're using but my Linux card came with a simple utility that prints a a channel's signal strength every second. When I've had to adjust my outdoor antenna, I just take my laptop up to the roof, telnet into the Linux box through the Wifi card and adjust the antenna until the numbers are right.
Yeah, I've got that too, but I don't relish working at the edge of the roof until I know a bit more about what I'm doing.

I'm currently getting HD from my Comcast box and I've recently added an old Voom box so that I can get CBS OTA. I'm using a Terk wing-shaped amplified antenna from Radio Shack. I think I've got it set up properly - used antennaweb and punched in frequency assignment 40 and get a signal strength of around 90. Voom box says I need at least 85. Got that locked in and 6.1 comes in. It was working pretty good Thursday night, but during the NFL games yesterday, these signal was dropping out every 10 - 30 seconds. The antenna is on top of my TV aimed in a northerly direction.

I haven't tried to tune in any other channels since I get the others from Comcast. However, I'm going to be adding a plasma to my bedroom with built in HD tuner, so my only HD will come OTA - no Comcast box in the bedroom.

I know there are a lot of variables, but here are my questions:

Is the loss of signal due to the Voom box not being very good, is it CBS, or is it antenna-related?

I don't need to adjust the aim of the antenna for each channel I want to watch do I?

Or, is it normal that OTA HD channels don't hold their signal very well?

I didn't put much thought into the antenna, as I've heard from several people that a cheap $10 antenna will work just fine.

BTW, I'm at Scholls Ferry Road just north of Allen Blvd in SW Portland. Topo isn't too bad, but perhaps it makes more of a difference than I think. No trees in my way for 80 feet or so.

Thanks for the help.

--Mark (OTA Noob)

I had some friends over for the game to show off my HD and the only HD channel that had problems was KATU. All the others were fine. So I wonder if maybe KATU was temporarily running 50% power or something like that.

I live in West Salem and have had trouble with KATU for several weeks now. I get all my other Portland stations fine. And yes, I know about the seasonal affects of trees losing/adding leaves. I also know wind causes noticeable problems. The first 12 months of my HD experience were VERY frustrating because I had to climb up on the roof and move my antenna every couple months. The best HD investment I've made is a motorized antenna (with remote control).

Anyway, in the past as the season changes I just re-align the antenna and everything is fine. It's different now. No matter where I aim my antenna I can NOT get a good signal from KATU. As I said, all other channels are fine. This is the first time this has happened to me in 2 1/2 years. I have to watch Lost, Desperate Housewives, etc in SD. Yuck!

Is anybody else having trouble with KATU? Is your signal strength normal for that station?

Yeah, I've got that too, but I don't relish working at the edge of the roof until I know a bit more about what I'm doing.
This time of the year I'm up there cleaning out the gutters every weekend. :)

You'll probably have to adjust your antenna very slowly and carefully. From your distance the signals will probably arrive in a very narrow beam. With your antenna pointed backwards, you may be picking up reflections of those signals off hills or something which will be more spread out and less reliable. Corner reflectors can be very directional -- one degree off and ATSC signals just vanish. So you might try carefully tapping it around the direction AntennaWeb tells you the signals should be coming from and see if you get anything.

One other thing. If you do have signals bouncing off hills behind you like it sounds then a corner reflector is a great choice for ATSC since (if I'm reading the pattern diagrams right) corner reflectors are better at rejecting signals from behind than Yagis. You don't want your antenna picking up those reflections and causing you multipath problems, especially if your direct path signals aren't very strong.

I've been having trouble with channel 12.1 the last two days using my D*tv HR10-250 ota antenna but still picking it up with my Sony HDTV internal HDTV tuner using the same antenna. Anyone know if they have changed anything? This is a new issue for me in the last 48hrs.
Rich

KPTV was actually better for me last night than most nights.

The main problem for you (and me on most nights) is that the OTA tuner in the HR10-250 is garbage.

KPTV was actually better for me last night than most nights.

The main problem for you (and me on most nights) is that the OTA tuner in the HR10-250 is garbage.

I have found that the tuner in my HR10-250 works about as well as the one in my television (JVC HD-70G886) - not quite but very close. Maybe both are garbage - I don't know - don' have anything to compare it to - but my reception is usually pretty good.

I do know that the tuner in the 10-250 is easily overloaded. Maybe now that fall is here the thing will require an antenuator which I will try if I continue to have problems, unless others are aware of a broadcast issue. I did put a RS antenuator on my other 10-250 unit this summer and it improved my reception considerably, but that unit has had issues with 12.1 the last two days as well.
Rich

One other thing. If you do have signals bouncing off hills behind you like it sounds then a corner reflector is a great choice for ATSC since (if I'm reading the pattern diagrams right) corner reflectors are better at rejecting signals from behind than Yagis. You don't want your antenna picking up those reflections and causing you multipath problems, especially if your direct path signals aren't very strong.
I am pretty sure that this is what is happening to me (picking up a reflection off the hills behind me). However, I went out again, and tried aiming the antenna in the correct diretcion again, and while I can pick up a couple channels well (PAX for some reason comes in really well, despite that I have no interest in ever watching it), but can't get KOPB which is what I'm really interested in. I turned the antenna back around, and there are all my channels again. While the signal strength isn't great, I'm having a very low number of dropped packets, so I can't really complain too much. I'm thinking if I leave the antenna as it is and get a pre-amp, I'll probably be in pretty good shape. The only channel I can't reliably tune now is WB. Anyone know where I can get a pre-amp for an rooftop antenna, and whether they need to be matched to a specific antenna or not?

By the way, I figured out what antenna I have. It is a Channel Master 3016. I guess I could probably get a bigger antenna and get some more gain that way.

Saturday Night Live will start broadcasting in HD this Saturday the 1st of OCT.

I am pretty sure that this is what is happening to me (picking up a reflection off the hills behind me). However, I went out again, and tried aiming the antenna in the correct diretcion again, and while I can pick up a couple channels well (PAX for some reason comes in really well, despite that I have no interest in ever watching it), but can't get KOPB which is what I'm really interested in. I turned the antenna back around, and there are all my channels again.
If you're getting PAX, that means the VHF part of the antenna is working. What was the other channel you got?

One potential problem you may run into is that those hills might not be consistently reflective during the year. The foliage may change and the rain may affect it. Since your signal strength is already marginal, it could make it unusable. The only thing worse than bad digital reception is inconsistent digital reception. It will only fail during the one show you want to watch that week.

KWBP is still running at half-power I think.

The only thing worse than bad digital reception is inconsistent digital reception. It will only fail during the one show you want to watch that week.And the corollary to that axiom is that audio dropouts will always occur during crucial dialog in those shows too ;)


ron

Emmis has sold KOIN, time will tell if this is going to be good for us or not...

http://www.emmis.com/press/home.aspx

EMMIS ANNOUNCES SALE OF FOUR ADDITIONAL TELEVISION STATIONS

Indianapolis…Emmis Communications Corporation (NASDAQ: EMMS) today announced that affiliates of the Blackstone Group and the SJL Broadcast Group have agreed to purchase four of its television stations for a purchase price of $259 million.

The purchase covers KOIN-TV (Ch. 6, CBS affiliate) in Portland, Ore.; KHON-TV (Ch. 2, Fox affiliate) in Honolulu, KSNW-TV (Ch. 3, NBC affiliate) in Wichita, Kan.; and KSNT-TV (Ch. 27, NBC affiliate) in Topeka, Kan., and is subject to customary prorations, adjustments and conditions including approval from the Federal Communications Commission and other regulatory authorities.

snip

The SJL Broadcast Group
The SJL Broadcast Group, headquartered in Montecito, CA, was founded in 1983 to build a group of network television stations. From 1984-1995 the SJL Group owned and operated twelve broadcast stations. In 1996, SJL acquired stations KSBY-TV, San Luis Obispo, CA and WICU-TV, Erie, PA, and in 2000, was involved in the acquisition of WOWK-TV, Huntington, WV, WTAJ-TV, Altoona, PA and WBNG-TV, Binghamton, NY. SJL has always focused on community service with a strong commitment to news and operates under the belief that its employees are its best representatives in the communities it serves.

Those aren't dropouts. Those are curse words! ;)

Hey Lee, are you buying KOIN and making it into a premier HD station?

Those aren't dropouts. Those are curse words! ;)
There's been alot of swearing on KOIN and KGW lately then :D.


Emmis has sold KOIN, time will tell if this is going to be good for us or not...Lets hope all their execs are huge HD fans and think multicasting is a scourge!



ron

Emmis has sold KOIN, time will tell if this is going to be good for us or not...

How could it be any worse? Especially for the community as a whole?

I'm thinking in particular of news. KOIN's news department is ridiculously tiny. I don't know for sure, but I think they're the smallest between them and KATU and KGW. I'd also like to know how they compare with news departments in similar size markets around the country.

I still have abouncy signal for KGW, so i put an attenuator on the line. so far, thats helped. I gotta put a shout out to Andy in the Engineering dept of KGW, he's been a good sounding board for my problems.

How could it be any worse? Especially for the community as a whole?How about more subchannels, even during the Superbowl? That would be worse.

How could it be any worse? Especially for the community as a whole?


There's a lot of ways it could be worse.
As mentioned they could add more sub-channels.
They could stop turning off the one they have, as they do now, for sporting events.
They could stop participating in this forum and listening and working with us.
They could sell off a chunk of their bandwidth.
If something on the HD end of things breaks, maybe the fix goes on the back burner as it isn't profitable enough for them.
They could further cut the HD budget.
Heck there's no requirement they even carry HD now or ever, just a digital signal.
We could lose Lee.

There are a lot of ways it could be worse, the list goes on and on, and you still may not get your CBS on Comcast.

Did anybody else experience intermittent breakup of the KATU-DT signal last night (Thursday night) between 9-10 PM? I had signal strength reading consistently between 30-40% range.

HZ

Yes, during Alias!! :)

I've had a little trouble with the signal for KATU recently. It may be on my end, but the difference this time is that moving my antenna doesn't help, I still barely break 50% on my meter. (it's usually around 90 - 95%)
Whether it's them or me is still up in the air, unless maybe a bunch of us are having trouble now too?

Earl

I'm getting KATU at 79%-82%, somewhat lower than KOIN which is 84%-87%. Both of these towers are on the south hill which unfortunately puts them right behind a 14 story building for me (the ones on the north hill, KGW, KPTV, KPDX, KOPB, are all line of sight for me and all come in 92%-99%). I do get a glich maybe twice an hour from KATU and almost never from KOIN.

Yes, during Alias!! :)
I just watched my DVRing of Alias from beginning to end and it was perfect, not one single packet error. Sometimes I wonder if my reception improves when people in that building have their drapes open. :confused:

I'm getting KATU at 79%-82%

Thanks, I was wondering if the neighbors maple tree had grown out enough to start causing me problems, now I know. At least the leaves will be falling off soon.
It looks like next spring I'll have to retire my Silver Sensor and replace the coax on my roof antenna...

I'm currently getting HD from my Comcast box and I've recently added an old Voom box so that I can get CBS OTA. I'm using a Terk wing-shaped amplified antenna from Radio Shack. I think I've got it set up properly - used antennaweb and punched in frequency assignment 40 and get a signal strength of around 90. Voom box says I need at least 85. Got that locked in and 6.1 comes in. It was working pretty good Thursday night, but during the NFL games yesterday, these signal was dropping out every 10 - 30 seconds. The antenna is on top of my TV aimed in a northerly direction.

I haven't tried to tune in any other channels since I get the others from Comcast. However, I'm going to be adding a plasma to my bedroom with built in HD tuner, so my only HD will come OTA - no Comcast box in the bedroom.

I know there are a lot of variables, but here are my questions:

Is the loss of signal due to the Voom box not being very good, is it CBS, or is it antenna-related?

I don't need to adjust the aim of the antenna for each channel I want to watch do I?

Or, is it normal that OTA HD channels don't hold their signal very well?

I didn't put much thought into the antenna, as I've heard from several people that a cheap $10 antenna will work just fine.

BTW, I'm at Scholls Ferry Road just north of Allen Blvd in SW Portland. Topo isn't too bad, but perhaps it makes more of a difference than I think. No trees in my way for 80 feet or so.

Thanks for the help.

--Mark (OTA Noob)

Maybe try a silver sensor, that's cheap. I'd try going to antennaweb.com first though, to see how strong the signal is in your neck of the woods.

J.

It sure will be nice when all the HD shows are shown in HD even during reruns.
The season premier for Veronica Mars was just on again, not only was it not HD but it was cropped to 4:3, so no letterbox either.

No HD Enterprise reruns either. If they showed some of this stuff in HD I'd watch them a second time instead of changing channels.

The Veronica Mars repeat isn't coming directly from the network. From what I've heard, UPN gives their affiliates the option to tape the show and reair it once during the weekend. It's up to the station (and their equipment) to decide how to present it. Very few stations, even large ones, have the equipment to record a show in HD and downconvert it properly for their SD channel (which would involve cropping or letterboxing it) so they tape the SD version and upconvert it for us.

Anyone notice that the syndicated episodes of Smallville are letterboxed, even the ones from the first season? This might be the first show to be syndicated in letterbox format (I'm sure I'm forgetting one!).

It makes sense why they do it as they do now, but I still don't have to like it. :)

It's another reason why the conversion to all digital can't happen fast enough for me. Once stations no longer have to be set-up for dual technologies they will be able to focus their budgets on just the one. That should enable them to add the equipment to make me a happy camper. :D

On a sidenote, the audio drops on KGW have gotten even more frequent than the ones on KOIN. <sigh>

I'm guessing that eventually stations will just get one feed which will be in HD and they'll get their SD from downconverting (cropping or letterboxing) that. Then networks can get rid of the redundant SD satellite feed and affiliates won't have flip the switch. This won't happen in a zillion years (except maybe Fox) unless networks push their affiliates to change.

I watched two hours of Surface tonight and heard only one very brief audio drop out. There was some stuttery audio during the fourth quarter of the SEC game today on KOIN.

The KGW audio dropouts may be a network thing. After perusing the programming threads there are several mentions of brief audio drops from several locations during many of the programs.

FOX's decision to standardize it's system, though not without pitfalls, does seem to be a better way to do it.

The KGW audio dropouts may be a network thing. After perusing the programming threads there are several mentions of brief audio drops from several locations during many of the programs.I'm pretty sure I've been hearing the new (frequent) audio drops that began on 8-1 a couple weeks ago on all their local programming as well as the net feeds. And last night while I was watching The West Wing, coming back from a commercial break all the sudden I was getting a constant tapping sound. Sounded just like someone tapping on a mike or something. It was pretty much constant, loud and really annoying. I was torn because the PQ on WW is so much improved this season that I didn't want to leave that and switch over to my lousy analog feed but it was driving me nuts. Just as I was about to switch the next commercial break came up and when they came back it was gone :). Then it was just back to the (now) regular dropouts :(.


ron

I'm new to HDTV, and live in the NW 23rd area in Portland. I am currently in the middle of a low-voltage structured wiring project at home, and I'm going to be wired to the hilt with RG6 (among other things) pretty soon. My hope is to put an antenna in the (3rd story) attic and using a pcHDTV tuner card in a Linux box running Xine and mythTV. Would anyone offer some suggestions for what antenna and feeding methods to use to get the best indoor reception in the city?

Thanks,
Tim

Believe it or not, your reception will be a little weak since you're only about three miles from the towers (the antennas are designed to throw their signals some distance away). At that distance the two clusters of towers will be in different directions making a directional antenna really difficult to use. You're probably best off starting off with a multidirectional antenna. Make sure that whatever antenna you buy that you keep all the parts so you can take it back and get another if it doesn't work.

I'm pretty sure I've been hearing the new (frequent) audio drops that began on 8-1 a couple weeks ago on all their local programming as well as the net feeds. And last night while I was watching The West Wing, coming back from a commercial break all the sudden I was getting a constant tapping sound. Sounded just like someone tapping on a mike or something. It was pretty much constant, loud and really annoying. I was torn because the PQ on WW is so much improved this season that I didn't want to leave that and switch over to my lousy analog feed but it was driving me nuts. Just as I was about to switch the next commercial break came up and when they came back it was gone :). Then it was just back to the (now) regular dropouts :(.


ron
The tapping sounds were also present on the cable during West Wing. Don't know if that adds any new info to the topic though.

I’m looking to run coax from a roof-mounted antenna to two HD TVs in my house. Access to one of the TVs is very easy (exterior wall) and the other will require the coax to be fished through the interior wall – either through the attic or the crawl space. So, I need help mounting the antenna and running the coax. Is there anybody out there who is willing and able to do this? I can’t see it taking more than 2 hours. I’ll pay you cash.

Thanks…Mark

Mark
I have no interest or ownership, but i used a company, Interconnex, to do a similiar wiring , fishing, job for me
They did a great job
503 742 0412
good luck

Michael..thanks for the tip. I've already called them and they are not returning my calls.

--Mark

The work is really simple and I did it myself, it just take a little confidence. Someone will charge a whole lot of money for an easy job

Hi,

I would like to solicit people's experience with using a good indoor anteena for OTA Portland area HD channels. What is it that you have found useful? I am in Hillsboro (near airport) and currently most of the channel strength is in 60 using the rabit-ear type of antenna. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Osho

you really owe it to yourself to try the good old Silver Sensor (they carry it all over the place, including Sears).
I am sure more than a few people will back me up on this. Of course nothing beats a good attic/roof setup.

Does anyone here have email contact info for KOIN? According to TitanTV (which they use on their site as well), they are showing the Oregon Humane Society Telethon on CBS on Saturday instead of the Tennessee-Georgia game, and I'm hoping they can at least show the game on one of the digital substations. Does anyone else want to write as well? It seems they would show a game of Top 10 teams over a telethon, but apparently not according to their schedule.

Lee Wood is an engineer at KOIN and a very active member here. send him a private message through the board.

here's the link for the PM:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=233

KOIN did not show the SEC game last year when the Humane society telethon was on. I was so hacked!!! It was not available last year OTA. The telethon was on all channels. Lets hope that is not the case this year. They do a great job of multicasting during the NCAA tourney. Lets hope they do the same this weekend.

I see the telethon is listed as being shown on 6-1, 6-2, 6-3. I doubt that is correct so maybe you will get lucky, I doubt they will need a lot of bandwidth to show the telethon.

Also, I did notice a couple of audio drops during CSI last night. Well specifically they were drop during a glade air freshener commercial. Sadly the, "plug it in, plug it in" jingle was interrupted.

Thanks Robert for the recommendation of Silver Sensor. I called up sears and they talled me that they have discontinued that product in their store. So, I have to order it online! Anyways, I have ordered it from buy.com (19.99 + shipping - not bad). I will post my experience when I receive it.

Osho

Osho, I can't imagine that the Silver Sensor won't be great for you.

I see the telethon is listed as being shown on 6-1, 6-2, 6-3. I doubt that is correct so maybe you will get lucky, I doubt they will need a lot of bandwidth to show the telethon.


The same thing happened last year -- they showed the telethon on all three digital channels. I've written letters and made phone calls to complain, but it looks like they'll be doing the same thing again this year. :mad:

I'd be willing to bet that there are legal/bureaucratic reasons for not sending the national feed through on one of the HD channels. There would be no local advertising for the feed. :(

I'm incredibly upset. The deal I made with my wife for letting me move out of the South up to Portland was that I would get to build an incredible home theater and watch Georgia games in HD -- the next best thing to being there. This is the second year in a row this has happened. Last year, my mom, a huge fan, was here and I bragged how great the game would be in the theater in HD. We ended up having to sit in front of the computer listening to the game over a garbled webcast. :mad:

Now the best I can get is a sorry webcast of the radio broadcast of the game if I'm willing to pay $7.00. :mad: Meanwhile, my great theater sits idle, ready for a HD broadcast that the entire rest of the country will get. I can't get it over satellite (D****tv) because I'm in Portland, and KOIN won't use any of its bandwidth for sending the national feed through. :(

I'm NEVER donating to the local Humane Society. I'll find other places to send my donations.

I'm NEVER donating to the local Humane Society. I'll find other places to send my donations.
How much were you planning to donate? I'll add it to my donation this year to make up for it.

You moved to Portland on the condition that you could watch Georgia games in HD? Geez, I like football and I like HD that but I don't let it control my life like that.

How much were you planning to donate? I'll add it to my donation this year to make up for it.

You moved to Portland on the condition that you could watch Georgia games in HD? Geez, I like football and I like HD that but I don't let it control my life like that.

There are plenty of worthy causes I donate to. Personally, I think people are more needing of help than animals, but that's just my opinion -- I'm not a pet owner any more, though if I were, I'd spay or neuter and only get one from a shelter. Habitat for Humanity and Mercy Corps get the bulk of my donations.

I hardly let football "control my life." My life is largely controlled by my daughter, who has autism and epilepsy. As a stay-at-home dad with a wife who works 60+ hours a week, a Georgia game is a small respite from the daily struggle of dealing with a severely developmentally disabled child, and as such, it's something I look forward to. Since my daughter sometimes has seizures and stops breathing, I have to pretty much stay at home even on evenings and weekends in case we have to rush to the hospital. :( A football game isn't much of a break, but it's about all I've got, and my wife lets me "escape" to the theater if a Georgia game is on. ;)

The "condition" was a joking way for me to say goodbye to my the place I grew up in, my friends and family (a major sacrifice), and try to preserve a small portion of the world I left behind. I also asked my wife to let me buy a decent barbeque so I could make some of my favorite foods that aren't available up here. However, this isn't a food forum, so I didn't mention that. It's good to barbeque now and then, and I can make some pretty good cornbread and collard greens, as well. :)

Lighten up. I just needed to vent. I'm happy that the Humane Society will get donations this weekend. I just wish the telethon didn't have to be shown on all three DTV channels, because it would be nice to get away from my screaming, hitting daughter for a few hours this weekend.

So did you send an e-mail or make a phone call to say thank you and to apologize for all the nasty things you said and or thought now that you were wrong and KOIN is showing the game and in HD afterall? :)

Batrman_451
I might politely suggest that if your post was really true, and not just a ploy, that you use your internet connection to search for a support group in your neighborhood for parents of children with speical needs. It might allow you to not only to have a helpfull place to vent, but you might find some support and some breaks from a difficult situation.
Rich

KOIN is showing the game and in HD afterall? :)
Holy cow. I didn't believe it when I read it. But I just fired up the HD tuner and it's true. (Not that I care about college football anyway).

And I can understand why the original poster was concerned. This is a matchup of a #5 team against a #8 team. Games like that are what football junkies live for.

So in honor of KOIN's kind act, I promise not to badmouth them any more for the rest of the entire day. I won't take back anything I've said previously, but still, I'm impressed and amazed.

Batrman_451
I might politely suggest that if your post was really true, and not just a ploy, that you use your internet connection to search for a support group in your neighborhood for parents of children with speical needs. It might allow you to not only to have a helpfull place to vent, but you might find some support and some breaks from a difficult situation.
Rich

Thanks! :) I am in contact with some other parents of autistic children who are in the same special needs class as my daughter. It's not a formal group, but at least I know other people who understand what our family is going through. I wish my daughter's condition were just a ploy -- heck, the only thing I'd trade my theater for is a cure for her autism, but at least we have really good insurance. :D

And a BIG THANKS! to the fine folks at KOIN for broadcasting the game in DT. You guys rock, and I'll be sending thank you emails to the station. :) As for nasty things, I was really polite in my emails and phone messages. I've done my worst venting here, so if anyone was offended, I do apologize. :o

Heck, I'm sheepishly considering donating to the Humane Society. Consider me chastised.

Bartman_451,
Good for you. All the best. Glad you got to see your game.
Rich

I got a cat from the Humane Society (their shelters are so full, most of the kittens are in foster homes these days) and he loves the surround sound during nature programs. He'll run around the room trying to figure out where the birds are hiding

I wouldn't be watching HDTV right now if he hadn't thrown up on my old NTSC set, turning it into a radio. When I was shopping around for a new TV, I discovered that three local stations were broadcasting in something called ATSC for free on UHF channels. I thought HDTV was still decades away.

I live in hidden springs, up on top by rosemont. Antennaweb said the db2 antenna should be fine so I installed it in my attic with rg6 cable, turned to 320 degrees. I have the Dish Network 942 HDTV Receiver .

When I do the scan feature on my receiver all I receive is 4 digital stations in the 22.X range. I do not pick up any of the local network channels all supposedly on the same "tower".

Any ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks

G

sounds to me like it's an VHF only antennae. all the PDX stations are UHF. I use the Silver Sensor which is why I dont get those 22.X channels very well.

Well congrats for getting to see the game bartman_451!

As for the FOX broadcast of the Seahawks today, what happened to the HD signal half way through the first half? Someone forget to throw the switch? I really liked when the announcer was giving the promo for Football on FOX in HD when the game was in SD.

SPECIAL NOTE: The yearly solar transit outage will be occurring today..this may cause some stations if affected to drop back to the SD feed until the outage has passed.. (thanks bdfox18doe for the reminder)

FOX has instructed stations to start on the backup feed until the solar transit outage has passed and then switch to the main feed, which would prevent the HD feed from airing until that point.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=589513

Well, that explains that. Thanks earletp

at least once a year, it really isn't their fault. heh!! :D

It will be their fault once Rupert Murdoch owns the sun!

Ha! That was funny.

We've been having a couple of HD OTA problems and I was hoping that someone would have some ideas on how we can fix them. We have a Dish 921 with a Silver Sensor and live in NE Portland near Hollywood. First, we have not been getting audio or video on OPB for at least 6 months (it worked fine before this problem started). We're getting a strong signal (over 100), but we can't see or hear a thing. I've removed and re-added the channel from the receiver on numerous occasions with no luck.

Also, FOX has been having some audio and video blips lately (at least several weeks) and these aren't related to signal strength (which stays in the 86-110 range). Anyone else see these things? Any ideas on how to fix them?

Thanks!

I ran into an update on that CBS Multicast story I mentioned previously. Here is another story about it, that could apply to us here...

Even though DTV public interest obligations and multicast must-carry remain uncertain, broadcasters are forging ahead with multicast initiatives.

CBS intends to launch its first network multicast feed within the next year, according to Marty Franks, executive vice president of CBS Television. "CBS-dot-two," as Franks referred to it, will be a general entertainment channel that "complements the mothership."

"Think of DVD extras," he said.

For example, during the week before the premiere of "Survivor," there might be a "meet the new 'Survivor' participants" type of show. (The network already does a Friday afternoon Internet series featuring "Survivor" rejects.) Franks said to think of it as "part promo, part cutting-room floor."

He said CBS.2 would appear in at least 25 million homes already covered in sealed retransmission deals. Negotiations with affiliates to carry the multicast feed continue, he said.

When asked how CBS rectified doing a multicast with its hardcore advocacy of unmolested HD, Franks said CBS would "bit-starve the multicast during full-motion sports." During regular primetime fare--primarily forensic dramas--the network feels it can spare the 2 to 3 Mbps necessary for CBS.2 without compromising picture quality.

CBS follows NBC into the multicast arena; that network is beaming WeatherPlus to affiliates. PBS is also feeding multicasts to its member stations, and John Lawson, president and CEO of the Association for Public Television Stations said his group would be announcing more new multichannels in the coming week. Rather than rely on must-carry, the APTS cut its own carriage deal with the National Cable and Telecommunications Association earlier this year. That deal kicks in Oct. 11.

Notice the bit-starve mention when sports are being shown in HD. Interesting. :)

Jory

We've been having a couple of HD OTA problems and I was hoping that someone would have some ideas on how we can fix them. We have a Dish 921 with a Silver Sensor and live in NE Portland near Hollywood.
That's where I am. Excellent location for DTV.

First, we have not been getting audio or video on OPB for at least 6 months (it worked fine before this problem started). We're getting a strong signal (over 100), but we can't see or hear a thing. I've removed and re-added the channel from the receiver on numerous occasions with no luck.
Do you get sound on their SD subchannel? KOPB is a little weird because they send DD2.1 sound instead of DD2.0 or DD5.1

Also, FOX has been having some audio and video blips lately (at least several weeks) and these aren't related to signal strength (which stays in the 86-110 range). Anyone else see these things? Any ideas on how to fix them?
Our area gets very strong signals. This unfortunately makes multipath more of a problem. The most frustrating multipath problems I've had have been with buses, trucks and orther large vehicles. You'll have a perfect signal until some vehicle or combination of vehicles cause a multipath for longer than your receiver can recover. Then they move on, the multipath disappears and everything is perfect again. I always got perfect reception late at night.

The only solution for me was to move my antenna as far from the street as possible. I got weaker signals but far fewer dropouts.

CBS intends to launch its first network multicast feed within the next year, according to Marty Franks, executive vice president of CBS Television. "CBS-dot-two," as Franks referred to it, will be a general entertainment channel that "complements the mothership."
At least it's not another [obscenities, dirty words] weather or news channel. They're actually thinking about giving people something they might want to watch instead of taking the easy route and filling it full of junk.

That's where I am. Excellent location for DTV.


Do you get sound on their SD subchannel? KOPB is a little weird because they send DD2.1 sound instead of DD2.0 or DD5.1

I didn't even think to check the subchannel, but we are getting audio and video on 10-2, but nothing at all on 10-1. How odd.


Our area gets very strong signals. This unfortunately makes multipath more of a problem. The most frustrating multipath problems I've had have been with buses, trucks and orther large vehicles. You'll have a perfect signal until some vehicle or combination of vehicles cause a multipath for longer than your receiver can recover. Then they move on, the multipath disappears and everything is perfect again. I always got perfect reception late at night.

The only solution for me was to move my antenna as far from the street as possible. I got weaker signals but far fewer dropouts.

I'm not sure if it's multipath or not. These blips happen very quickly (.5 second maybe) and very often (every minute or so). They happened throughout the entire baseball game tonight. I think we'll experience multipath once in a while when a truck goes by, but it usually cuts out the signal for longer than this and breaks up the picture almost completely. Maybe our receiver just needed a reboot. We're going to reboot it tonight and see if it happens tomorrow.

Thanks for the ideas!
Erin

I didn't even think to check the subchannel, but we are getting audio and video on 10-2, but nothing at all on 10-1. How odd.
10-2 is normal DD 2.0 audio. It's hard to believe that a receiver can't decode DD 2.1 audio. There must be some trick to get it to work. 10-1 is the only station that broadcasts DD 2.1 (that I know of).

I'm not sure if it's multipath or not. These blips happen very quickly (.5 second maybe) and very often (every minute or so). They happened throughout the entire baseball game tonight.
That's very typical. ATSC has built-in error correction that works most of the time. Even when packets get messed up, receivers (at least the newer ones) are clever at masking the errors they receive. The downside is that all this cleverness and error correction can make it hard to figure out what's causing the multipath.

I think we'll experience multipath once in a while when a truck goes by, but it usually cuts out the signal for longer than this and breaks up the picture almost completely.
How bad the glitch appears depends on where the error happens and how many errors you get. A bad packet in a "B frame" (the most common frame) usually causes a very brief splotch that you may not notice (or a clever receiver will mask for you). A bad "P frame" (second most common) can cause the picture to become increasingly messed up as long as a second (clever receivers will sometimes freeze the picture instead). A bad "I frame" (least common) will usually screw up the picture for an entire second until the next I frame shows up to fix everything.

If a series of packets get lost then the receiver may have to resync and that can take several seconds. That's the worst.

But once you get everything working, you should be able to get perfect reception of every station (once KWBP is full power again) in our area. I receive all of the stations on the north hill (KGW, KPTV, KPDX, and KOPB) perfectly, as if were receiving it through cable (for free).

But once you get everything working, you should be able to get perfect reception of every station (once KWBP is full power again) in our area.
Ha. Only if you're lucky. You may need to sacrifice some chicken entrails to your favorite god.

I'm in Tualatin. All towers between 350 and 355 degrees. All between 11.1 and 11.4 miles. The tops of a few towers are just visible from an upstairs window (but my antenna is downstairs). There are some houses and trees in between me and the towers. So I'm a "typical" household. Not ideal terrain, but not "mission impossible". And yet, on any given day, one of the HD signals will be finicky while the others will be fine. Of course the finicky station will vary from day to day.

I have good equipment. I have a Silver Sensor plus an LST-4200A (widely regarded as one of the best receivers). And yet I have problems. Last weekend I did some experiments in an attempt to quantify my difficulties.

In one experiment I added a 6 dB attenuator and then a second 6dB attenuator to the input of my receiver. Believe it or not, reception improved. A channel that was NO SIGNAL was now viewable.

In another experiment I moved the antenna to the garage, thereby bypassing 2 interior walls plus some heating ductwork. Reception was unchanged.

Then I moved the Silver Sensor from horizontal to vertical orientation. A problem channel suddenly appeared.

And so on ...

I don't want to have an external antenna. So now the only other thing I can think of is to try a higher gain antenna in the garage. Should I study the polar patterns for the different antennas to see which has the best multipath rejection? Should I sink more money into this rathole?

I know it's multipath because analog channel 49 comes in GREAT but has a few strong ghost images. I even get great analog channel 12 and passable channel 8 and the Silver Sensor isn't even a VHF antenna. The ghosts are close, perhaps 1% or 2% of the scan line.

If KOIN were on cable, I'd switch in a heartbeat. But in a few more months it won't matter, since football will be over and I won't care for another year.

10-2 is normal DD 2.0 audio. It's hard to believe that a receiver can't decode DD 2.1 audio. There must be some trick to get it to work. 10-1 is the only station that broadcasts DD 2.1 (that I know of).

Would the DD 2.1 audio affect the video though? I've poked around the receiver and cannot find any options to change the DD decoder. I can change it from DD to PCM or have both DD and PCM active (which is how it's currently set). Do you think this is just a limitation of the receiver?

Thanks,
Erin

No the audio can't affect the video. It hard to believe that it's having trouble with DD2.1 but if you're getting DD 2.0 and DD 5.1 audio from all the other stations, that's the only thing about KOPB's audio that's unique (that I know of).

Then I moved the Silver Sensor from horizontal to vertical orientation. A problem channel suddenly appeared.
Now this is crazy. Signals from these stations should be horizonally polarized. If I turn my Yagi 90 degrees I get absolutely no signal from any station.

You're probably best off with a Yagi in the garage. That will attenuate most multipath (which was my major problem) although 4 degrees is pretty wide so you might have to keep some of the elements out of line.

No the audio can't affect the video. It hard to believe that it's having trouble with DD2.1 but if you're getting DD 2.0 and DD 5.1 audio from all the other stations, that's the only thing about KOPB's audio that's unique (that I know of).

I figured it out, I deleted the channels in my receiver and re-added them. I was missing a step previously. Apparently, something about the data OPB was transmitting changed sometime back, which caused the blank picture and audio. This has happened in other cities according to the info at dbstalk.com.

Thanks for the help!
Erin

It is odd but I lost OPB awhile back and have been trying to find for sometime now without success. Glad you were able to get it back though.

At the beginning of the year all the stations in town moved their HD channels from subchannel 1 to subchannel 3 to follow an FCC regulation (the subchannel is mapped back to -1 in the PSIP data so viewers won't get confused). They all did it at the same time so folks would only have to rescan the channels once. I wonder if KOPB moved their channel sometime after everyone else.

Maybe, though I have rescanned a few times and can't seem to find it and I can get all the other channels (2,6,8,12,32,49) just fine.

I'm still getting a lot of dropouts on KGW, though my signal is now steady at 95+%.
Anyone else?

ER on KGW is Widescreen SD tonight for some reason.

Yeah, and their PQ has been so much improved this season too. At the beginning I was sitting there thinking "wow, it's dropped back to the way it used to be", then it hit me it was the 14x9 zoom/crop upconvert. I almost got up and called them but was just too lazy ;). Hopefully they'll not have the same problem next week as it looks like John Leguizamo has been added to the cast starting next week. That should be interesting.

On another note, it seems the SHAKER SURROUND SOUND is back pretty much full time on KOIN (6-1) local feed now :(. Survivor looks really lousy on 6-2....


ron

On another note, it seems the SHAKER SURROUND SOUND is back pretty much full time on KOIN (6-1) local feed now :(. Survivor looks really lousy on 6-2....


ron

Ron, not sure what you're referring to here but I was absolutely awed by the 5.1 audio track of CSI last night. I was thinking - why can't all programs be fed with audio that makes good use of all 6 speakers like CSI? It totally immersed me in the show. I only watch CSI on Thurs. and the weekend football on KOIN (which is also great audio BTW), so I don't have other in-depth programming experience that I've listened to. What should I listen to/for to have your experience?

I was watching CSI last night and the was having trouble the dialogue being far to quite compared to the soundtrack and effects.

Ron, not sure what you're referring to here but I was absolutely awed by the 5.1 audio track of CSI last night. I was thinking - why can't all programs be fed with audio that makes good use of all 6 speakers like CSI? It totally immersed me in the show. I only watch CSI on Thurs. and the weekend football on KOIN (which is also great audio BTW), so I don't have other in-depth programming experience that I've listened to. What should I listen to/for to have your experience?The CSI audio was great for me. All the programming that originates in DD 5.1 sounds just fine to my ears. It's the non 5.1 stuff that seems to be affected. I said "6.1 local feed" in my post and that's not really accurate as it's actually everything but the 5.1 shows, local or from the net feed. And that's using a audio amp that defaults to PLII in the absense of a 5.1 signal. It has come and gone ever since they set up the 5.1 system, and it varies in intensity from barely audible to quite loud and grating. There have been periods where it's been totally absent for days at a time so I have a completely uneducated guess/theory that it's something they can dial out, but which keeps drifting out of spec resulting in the noise. Lee maintained that they could never hear/find the problem some of us experienced with their previous audio setup so my theory may be complete bunk :D. Maybe we'll get lucky and the new KOIN owners will be pro DTV and give Lee a nice fat budget to bring their system up to standard. We can always dream can't we ;).


ron

CSI sounded great on my system using OTA HR10-250 tuner and Denon 4802 receiver decoding the 5.1 to 6.1.
Rich

The CSI audio was great for me. All the programming that originates in DD 5.1 sounds just fine to my ears. It's the non 5.1 stuff that seems to be affected. I said "6.1 local feed" in my post and that's not really accurate as it's actually everything but the 5.1 shows, local or from the net feed. And that's using a audio amp that defaults to PLII in the absense of a 5.1 signal. It has come and gone ever since they set up the 5.1 system, and it varies in intensity from barely audible to quite loud and grating. There have been periods where it's been totally absent for days at a time so I have a completely uneducated guess/theory that it's something they can dial out, but which keeps drifting out of spec resulting in the noise.

Ron, that echos my experience and conclusions, exactly. DD5.1 is excellent, everything else is a crapshoot...



From reading a thread in the programming forum, it seems at least part(most) of the KGW problem is an issue with weather..................in NYC. Heck it's bad enough I have to deal with the rain, wind and trees here, but rain on the other side of the country can hose me too? :confused:

but rain on the other side of the country can hose me too? :confused:

lol - Just goes to show how imperfect the delivery of this technology still is.

I finally stayed up late enough last night to catch Letterman for the first time since going HD and Leno - flipping back and forth between them. I was somewhat surprised to see that Letterman wasn't 5.1. My JVC A/V receiver doesn't do PLII so my PLI decodes the PCM signal. I still didn't hear any of the noise from KOIN you and r11 keep reporting. I use the optical link between my receivers. BTW, I thought the PQ for both shows was very good.

I use digital coax for my connection, though I don't see why that should be the difference.
It is really sporadic, (and overall better than it used to be, I think) your best chance of hearing it is during the local news. It seems to be effected as much if not more than anything else.

Most of what I've been watching lately on KOIN is 5.1 so I don't hear it as much as I used to.
I was surprised Letterman isn't 5.1 too.

Is this MNF lipsync issue on football right now Comcast or OTA?

it's SD and out of synch

Yeah, I think it has to be one of the worst MNF broadcasts I have ever scene. At least the picture or sound isn't dropping out.

No lip synch issues OTA in Seattle on two different receivers and two different TV's, so probably not an ABC network problem.

Yeah, it's all fixed down here now.

Anyone know the strength of KOPB 10.1&10.2? According to the opening thread of this forum it's listed as 1000kw, but I don't think that's current. According to the FCC web site http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=50589 it's either 381kw( temp permit) or 753, I can't tell. There is a referenced application to reduce the power from 1000kw to 753kw to reduce interference to other channels. I ask because I receive KGW 8.1 as my strongest station and OPB shares the same tower, but I can't lock in on it. KGW is 1000kw. I wish it was 1000kw, then I suspect I could lock on. I'm 54 miles away and KOPB is the only station from Portland I can't get. If it's 381 and going to 753 I might stand a chance as I get 12.1 which broadcasts at 741kw.
Rich

I am having the same problem RBMD. A few months back something changed with OPB and I have been unable to locate since then.

My JVC A/V receiver doesn't do PLII so my PLI decodes the PCM signal. I still didn't hear any of the noise from KOIN you and r11 keep reporting. I use the optical link between my receivers. BTW, I thought the PQ for both shows was very good.My memory is not great by any means, but IIRC, the previous problem they had before they got the DD5.1 was only apparent with PLII receivers, so perhaps this is similar? On my system manually switching to PCM mode has no effect on the noise. FWIW, I haven't noticed any of it since, well, last week right after we were talking about it. Maybe Lee noticed us complaining and went in and flushed out the flux capacitors and recalibrated the proton emitters ;).


ron

I ask because I receive KGW 8.1 as my strongest station and OPB shares the same tower, but I can't lock in on it. KGW is 1000kw. I wish it was 1000kw, then I suspect I could lock on.
I get KGW at 96% and KOPB at 92% but obviously I'm a lot closer. Is it possible that your antenna works better at the higher end of the UHF band than the lower? KOPB is channel 27 while KGW is 46. I guess this is unlikely since you're getting KPTV on 30 and it's right next to the KGW/KOPB tower, unless your KPTV reception is marginal.

Well, it is possible. KPTV is the worst performing channel of all the channels I receive. KGW is usually a very solid channel for me.

According to this page (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html) UHF Yagi antennas these days are tuned for channel 69 and don't work as well for lower-numbered channels. This might be an issue at your distance.

According to this page (http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/types.html) UHF Yagi antennas these days are tuned for channel 69 and don't work as well for lower-numbered channels. This might be an issue at your distance.

Yes but many Yagi antennas are actually combination Yagi/Corner-Reflectors. If you look a little further down the page you link to you will see a graph that shows that those have good performance across the entire UHF band. For example, channel 27 reception is about 20 dB better with the Y/C-R than with plain Yagi.

So it really depends on the exact antenna that RBMD has.

Thanks for all the responses. I have a wingard hd8200p uhf/vhf combo. It appears to not be so good for low uhf, but looks like not to bad at channel 30. It does have corner reflectors.

Channel 11 19 db gain
Channel 13 18 db gain
Channel 14 13 db gain
Channel 32 20 db gain
Channel 50 >20 db gain

12.1(30) is my second weakest station, but it is also broadcasting at only 741 kw and I get it 95% of the time just fine. Still does anyone know the answer to what the power of 10.1 is? If they are broadcasting using their temporary permit they are in the 300kw range. That would explain everything.
Rich

Are you using a preamp? You are way the heck out there.

Yes a Winegard 29 db uhf/vhf mast mounted preamp.
Rich

Could I get any OTA reception in Lafayette, Oregon?

Also, if I had a Direct TV, Voom, or Dish network HD receiver could it function as a receiver (eve if I didn't have the service?)

Just wondering, Thanks for your help.