rifleman - what kind of D*tv tuner do you have to pull in HD Channel 8? the HR20? are there any options? I thought those tuners have just been available for a week or two - makes me think maybe you have a different one?

Jack


I have OTA with the Tivo-based DirecTV HD-DVR (HR10-250)

The brand new one is the HR20-700.



KGW looked nice last night for Earl and Office

absolutely a clueless CSR!!
Go to the HD Recorders forum here and see for yourself
Remember this is the new DVR, the HR 20 250

The HR20 cannot receive OTA yet. The tuners are there, but they are currently disabled. Eventually a software update will enable them, but no date has been announced yet. The 10-250 can, of course, handle OTA just fine.

I was watching Leno and at midnight when they normally drop to SD for station ID, they didn't. KGW now seems to have a HD graphics generator. :)

hey guys directv coming out this morning new install with hr20 I live in Boring and have a metal roof inddor antenna with new tv was a joke even though it was a unamplified antenna I think my metal roof is kicking my rear should i put up a outside antenna? and if so what kind currently with the old antenna i can only get fuzzy analog and 22.1 is identified but with no picture.

CalfRoper
Since I assume they are installing the new MPEG 4 dish and the HR20 is MPEG 4 capable and they have added local HD channels to the D* lineup, why do you need to go OTA

They currently only have 2 of the big 4 local HD channels activated, but they should add the other two shortlt. I would imagine being in Boring, OTA HD would be problematic anyone, and any perceived difference between OTA HD and D* HD should be hardly noticeable

Just my 2 cents

CalfRoper
Since I assume they are installing the new MPEG 4 dish and the HR20 is MPEG 4 capable and they have added local HD channels to the D* lineup, why do you need to go OTA

They currently only have 2 of the big 4 local HD channels activated, but they should add the other two shortlt. I would imagine being in Boring, OTA HD would be problematic anyone, and any perceived difference between OTA HD and D* HD should be hardly noticeable

Just my 2 cents
I agree with this post. It will only be a matter of time before all 4 local channels will be in HD on D*. I just have the H20 box and noticed the HD channels were up last week.

I was kind of pissed though since I wanted to watch FOX in HD for football one game looked like crap(SD was actaully better looking) and the Seahawk game looked great, but I had no sound from it. Did anyone else have this problem with D*?

well i was just wondering about the cw? is it even carried by D*? i have good line of sight but the metal roof is just problematic so I will see how this goes and just deal until all the channels are up.

well i was just wondering about the cw? is it even carried by D*? i have good line of sight but the metal roof is just problematic so I will see how this goes and just deal until all the channels are up.


CW you'd get non-HD from the satellite dish itself just like any of the other local channels...only way to see it in HD is to have an antenna.

I agree with this post. It will only be a matter of time before all 4 local channels will be in HD on D*. I just have the H20 box and noticed the HD channels were up last week.

I was kind of pissed though since I wanted to watch FOX in HD for football one game looked like crap(SD was actaully better looking) and the Seahawk game looked great, but I had no sound from it. Did anyone else have this problem with D*?
Yes, I had the sound dropout problem. Both HD channels went down for a while yesterday.

Yes, I had the sound dropout problem. Both HD channels went down for a while yesterday.



I didn't see the second half but had just two or three video dropouts (antenna most likely) in the 1st half that lasted a total of four seconds or so.

KPTV had no audio through most of the weekend as they D* is tracking down an encoding issue with. Yesterday morning, they took KPTV 12 offline completely for testing. I have no ETA on when it's going to be back but it should be fairly soon.

Do not adjust your dish...

Is anyone having audio problems with KWBP? The audio from the commercials is perfect, there was even one commerical with 5.1 sound which sounded perfect, the network promos in 2.0 sounded perfect, but when the actual program starts my receiver is bouncing between 5.1 and 2.0 every second.

And of course I meant to say "KRCW" which is KWBP's new ID.

With "Runaway" starting, it's trying very hard to stay in 5.1 mode but not quite succeeding.

KPTV12 is now back as far as video and audio. They had to replace some equipment in Castle Rock, CO at the uplink facility. Let's hope whatever they did sticks this time around so we get a complete Seahawks broadcast this Sunday. ;)

KPTV12 is now back as far as video and audio. They had to replace some equipment in Castle Rock, CO at the uplink facility. Let's hope whatever they did sticks this time around so we get a complete Seahawks broadcast this Sunday. ;)

The Seahawks are on NBC this week.

Is anyone having audio problems with KWBP? The audio from the commercials is perfect, there was even one commerical with 5.1 sound which sounded perfect, the network promos in 2.0 sounded perfect, but when the actual program starts my receiver is bouncing between 5.1 and 2.0 every second.

YES! glad some else sees (or hears) this. i also get a square in the upper right that seems to flash. like the brightness setting is changing. maybe they are related.

Smallville started out bouncing between 5.1 and 2.0 and I figured it was going to be hopeless OTA. I switched on Comcast and the bouncing was nearly as bad. At least that excluded my HTPC. Then there was a burst of pixelation and the sound stayed at 2.0 on both Comcast and OTA.

Smallville started out bouncing between 5.1 and 2.0 and I figured it was going to be hopeless OTA. ... Then there was a burst of pixelation and the sound stayed at 2.0 on both Comcast and OTA.

It was the same here (NW Portland just off 23rd Ave) lasted about 6 min. Just long enough that I was thinking I would have to watch Smallville on analog 32 from Salem( 5 isn't as good as 32 here). What a relief when it got fixed ! I used to watch the WB a lot and have rarely had issues with 32-1 . Analog 32 & 5 are another story... cars in front of my house somtimes blocks the signal strange but true.

[QUOTE]=cullenpdx]I've had trouble with KOIN more than any other channel. It has not been consistant either. During Rockstar Supernova two episodes had an in and out audio static for 2 weeks in a row. I wrote KOIN(got no response) and the following week things were fixed.[/CODE]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who heard that intermittent static during Rockstar. Very annoying! I'm in Clackamas and pretty consistently get an 80% signal on KOIN but they are the weakest major. Everyone else is 98% with a roof screen door (grid) antenna.

There's a review of the HR20 Online on HDTV Magazine and as posted earlier wait for that software upgrade. Of you subscribe to their free e-mail news you get regular updates of new technology and programming. Its a great resource. The review is not very good and Part II should be coming out soon.

It was the same here (NW Portland just off 23rd Ave) lasted about 6 min. Just long enough that I was thinking I would have to watch Smallville on analog 32 from Salem( 5 isn't as good as 32 here). What a relief when it got fixed ! I used to watch the WB a lot and have rarely had issues with 32-1 . Analog 32 & 5 are another story... cars in front of my house somtimes blocks the signal strange but true.

i'm on ne 46th and got the same thing with cars sometimes. but i use the basement as a tv room. if i ever put an antenna in the attic, i imagine that would fix a lot of that

BPAYNE: Any update on when Directv MPEG4 ABC and CBS will be added? Raining season is upon us and those two are the ones I get channel drops on.

I can tell you I haven't heard any updates on when they'll roll out. They usually don't tell me stuff like that until about 2 weeks before a roll out. If they do tell me early, then I usually have to sign an NDA.

I can tell you I haven't heard any updates on when they'll roll out. They usually don't tell me stuff like that until about 2 weeks before a roll out. If they do tell me early, then I usually have to sign an NDA.


So what he's saying is wait about two weeks, otherwise the NDA disclosure clause is an unnecessary part of bpayne's post.

Wow, secret code and everything!

Anyone with the HR10-250 from D* receive the 6.3a update yet? Box is so much faster than before but there's an audio dropout problem that occurs every so often (about once per hour if that) for about eight seconds. The picture then "blips" with the sound coming back.

Only reason why I posted it here is because it seems to be just an OTA problem, and not with anything like HBOHD or ESPNHD. Anyone else getting these dropouts or even have 6.3a?

Anyone with the HR10-250 from D* receive the 6.3a update yet? Box is so much faster than before but there's an audio dropout problem that occurs every so often (about once per hour if that) for about eight seconds. The picture then "blips" with the sound coming back.

Only reason why I posted it here is because it seems to be just an OTA problem, and not with anything like HBOHD or ESPNHD. Anyone else getting these dropouts or even have 6.3a?


Yes, this is very common. Looks like 50% see this and 50% don't. See the tivo forum for more info:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=316857

Howdy folks. I wonder if you can help me.

I recently helped my mother-in-law purchase a new HDTV and I'm trying to hook up an antenna for her. I've tried all but the very largest at radio shack without getting any reception. She lives on the wrong side of the hill in West Linn.

I want to try some other kinds of antennas, but am having difficulty locating a store that sells antennas (don't want to use the Internet in case I have to return it). Anyone know of a good store?

Or, do you think her location will make OTA impossible?

Thanks.

I live on the hill above Albertsons off the 10th street exit in WL. $500 donated to a professional installer and all I ever got was part time KOIN HD.

Starkelectronics on the net has a great se;lection of OTA antennas, I believe Channel Master CM4228 is often recommended, but double check Antenna threads

Comcast gives me all the locals and most of the National, Their DVR is not the best, but it works

Good Luck!

I live all the way out in Vernonia. According to antennaweb.org, I'm about 34 miles from the towers on Sylvan. I'm using a roof-mounted Radio Shack VU-120XR 120" antenna along with a Radio Shack 15-2507 amplifier (since I've split it to four rooms). With this setup, I have had no problems recieving the digital broadcasts for 2, 6, 8, 10, 12, 22, 32, & 49. This setup was less than $200 including the mast and mounts, however my wife isn't thrilled with the big antenna (http://groups.msn.com/therhodesfamilyphotos/vernoniaproperty.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=868) on top of our garage...

Farther out you are, the easier it is to point at the two sets of towers with an antenna. Closer in, the towers are further apart.

rifleman69, I agree, except West Linn is about 12 miles from the towers on Sylvan and according to antennaweb.org they are all located between 318-321 degrees for the digital versions of 2,6,8,10,12,32,49. Without the hill problem, sladewatts should be able to receive all of these digital channels fine from West Linn with a small multidirectional antenna.

sladewatts, did you have a single cable (no splitters) from the antenna to the television? Any splitters will significantly reduce the signal from the antenna to the television. If you need to split it, make sure you use an amplifier. Also, if you haven't done so already, make sure you check out www.antennaweb.org for antenna and alignment recommendations. Good luck.

Actually I was responding to your scenario, forgot to quote what you said so that others would know what I was talking about. :)

Anyone with the HR10-250 from D* receive the 6.3a update yet? Box is so much faster than before but there's an audio dropout problem that occurs every so often (about once per hour if that) for about eight seconds. The picture then "blips" with the sound coming back.

Only reason why I posted it here is because it seems to be just an OTA problem, and not with anything like HBOHD or ESPNHD. Anyone else getting these dropouts or even have 6.3a?


I have not received 6.3a yet (still one 3.15f... and awaiting my 6.3a) but I have been seeing the weird audio issues for the past couple of weeks only on the OTA channels -- I believe it has only happened to my recording made when recording two HD ota channels and watching a third one (comething I have been doing alot more since the new season has a lot more local HD shows that I am watching and recording). I don't remember this happening last season at all but I have updated my drives since them to 600gB.

I happened to me on both of my Sunday night recording made around 9:20pm.

I have not received 6.3a yet (still one 3.15f... and awaiting my 6.3a) but I have been seeing the weird audio issues for the past couple of weeks only on the OTA channels -- I believe it has only happened to my recording made when recording two HD ota channels and watching a third one (comething I have been doing alot more since the new season has a lot more local HD shows that I am watching and recording). I don't remember this happening last season at all but I have updated my drives since them to 600gB.

I happened to me on both of my Sunday night recording made around 9:20pm.


I've added a drive to mine awhile back (250 + 160 when I should have just added 500), many people were saying that that could be the problem, but there are reports that stock HR10-250's are experiencing the problem as well.

so anyone having problems with Koin tonight, because for me its freakin screwing up majorly and its the only station doing it. Glitchy/Studdery and completely bullshat. There goes NCIS, time to look for a torrent

so anyone having problems with Koin tonight, because for me its freakin screwing up majorly and its the only station doing it. Glitchy/Studdery and completely bullshat. There goes NCIS, time to look for a torrent
Looks great here.

KOIN was fine for me too.

thanks guys, I think I'll take what Michael said to heart and realize OTA ain't going to happen in her location.

I've done antennaweb, single line coaxial, direct to TV, used large directional--pointed at every degree possible (just to be safe), and with no luck.

I'll call her sat provider and see what they can hook up for her.

Thanks anyway.

2 Questions for you folks.

I have been away from this site for sometime, and in reading posts from the past couple of months it appears as though D* is now broadcasting locals in HD. I am able to receive OTA here in West Linn, and have been happy with the reception for the past couple of years. Is there any advantage to recieving the locals over the the dish, or is PQ a bit better OTA?

Secondly....Anyone know why Jeopardy, and Wheel are not broadcast in HD here?

Thanks,

Craig

Calambert
I don't have the D* MPEG 4 yet, but there are numerous threads on the Equipment forum on the subject of OTA vs D*. Some feel there is a slight loss of qualatity D* vs OTA, while others see no difference. From my reading it may be that OTA is very slightly better. Down the road getting the new receiver and dish will be neccessary, since once the new Sat's are launched and new HD is added, it likely will be in MPEG 4, but that is a next year issue

There was a post in one of the local Port threads, where someone asked the station about Jeopardy and Wheel, and they were told that the station was not planning to run them in HD till possibly 08 or so. Don't remember if a reason was given
Michael

Thanks Michael! I think I'll stay with my current setup until a new dish and receiver are required. (No point in fixing something that isn't broken).

Anyone else experiencing the audio dropouts on the HD MLB game on Fox at 6:20PM on 10/7? My HR10-250 upgraded to 6.3a yesterday and I didn't have any problems with CBS last night. All HD channels are OTA. I'm thinking I've got the audio problems. Didn't experience this at all in the past. The Ducks game on ABC-HD is doing the same thing. When I use the 7second instant replay, the dropouts disappear. However, this doesn't work for Fox.

What happened to KPDX digital? Reception was fine last weekend,
but this weekend (2006-10-7 & 8) it is horrid. Thousands of
dropped packets. KPDX's analog channel is fine, other digital
stations are fine.

KPDX looks fine here. I was able to record Star Trek last night with no errors.

Did anyone else have KPTV's audio feed on the D* HD channel drop out entirely yesterday? I was getting some audio stuttering throughout the day and finally, while watching the Eagles game, the audio dropped out entirely and didn't come back for the rest of the night (AFAIK). Everything else, including KGW's HD channel, was working just fine.

Audio was fine for me. I mostly only watched the last quarter or so, though.

No problems here for KPTV, not even my usual total picture loss for a couple of seconds. Might have been one or two, but I'm thinking that was the Green Bay game when the original HD feed went down for awhile, both before and after.

Anyone else experiencing the audio dropouts on the HD MLB game on Fox at 6:20PM on 10/7? My HR10-250 upgraded to 6.3a yesterday and I didn't have any problems with CBS last night. All HD channels are OTA. I'm thinking I've got the audio problems. Didn't experience this at all in the past. The Ducks game on ABC-HD is doing the same thing. When I use the 7second instant replay, the dropouts disappear. However, this doesn't work for Fox.

The infamous HR10-250 6.3 dropouts (8 seconds with no audio but perfect picture followed by a slight picture glitch when the sound returns,) is much more prevalent on FOX.

But I have seen it on PBS and during Sunday Night Football on NBC last night.

The video/audio glitches are back on D* KPTV12. They're not as bad as before- I see them every 5 minutes or so. Some are barely noticeable- others are severe. I thought we had put all this behind us but... :)



And just like everyone else, I'm getting DD 5.1 dropouts on my HR10-250 w/the 6.3a update installed. I seem to only experience it on 2-1 and occasionally 6-1. If anyone wants to- please PM me which channels you're experiencing audio dropouts, which shows, presence of any of video glitches etc. Please be as detailed as possible. I will need some sort of account information from you eventually but that can come later. I'm putting together a report for D* Engineering and I would like to get it to before Tuesday of next week.

6.1 and 12.1 of two weeks ago's NFL football games. Eight or so seconds of perfect video but no audio. Picture then "blips" with the audio coming back. Haven't seen it as much since then, maybe one or two per hour if that.


*edit* KOIN instead of KGW, duh! I'm sure I saw it on KGW as well though.

For what it's worth I'm seeing Video and audio glitches on nearly every program & channel I've watched in the last 2 weeks or so. 32.1 which used to be great now goes off the air for nearly a min at a time before returning, a few times in every program. The audio goes first then the whole channel goes off. I sure hope they iron out the kinks in digital broadcasting soon or at least before digital is all we have .

Sounds to me like you have a problem with your reception Schwinn

Nice "HD" there KATU for the USC/ASU game. Heads up their behinds yet again.

I was wondering why the picture was not up to its usual quality. Most of all it was a shame that USC got by Arizona State. I really think Oregon has a shot at beating USC this year.

Jay

Yes, that game was in HD in just about every other city. I guess KATU didn't realize that since ESPN took over ABC Sports, college games are in HD now.

Hey-

I have had and HD-250 for quite a while, and have enjoyed OTA HD. In the last month my recption for KOIN has gone south (breaks up quite a bit!) All my other stations work great. I have my antenna pointing at ~ 190 degrees. I am in Vancouver.

I noticed that there were other complaints about KOIN reception. Has any progress been made?

My tuner is still at the 3f.... revison, it has not been upgraded to the 6... version yet.

Any help?

mark

Yes, that game was in HD in just about every other city. I guess KATU didn't realize that since ESPN took over ABC Sports, college games are in HD now.

I can almost forgive KATU for not providing the HD feed. But the SD picture was absolute crap. It was so fuzzy and out of focus it was just a shame for them to keep airing it. I saw a highlight of the game on ESPN while it was still in progress and the ESPN picture (from ABC), while still not HD (was it really broadcast in HD, inspite of the "ESPNHD" on the announcers' microphones?), showed a much more focused picture. I think we had a substandard feed from an ABC/ESPN relay point.

Get this about the USC/ASU game.


Someone called up KATU and asked for the switched to be flipped. KATU said that since they showed the Oregon/UCLA game in HD (lie), they couldn't show the USC/ASU game in HD.


What a bunch of winners at Fisher Broadcasting...

Well that's an original one at least. "We used up all our bits for the day."

I get OTA HD with my Direct Tivo HR10. I'm in Gresham. During the day my OTA on channel 8 is rock solid but on the other channels it's kinda flaky. Especially fox. Then as the day progresses it changes. At night all changes have perfect HD except for 8 which won't come in at all. Wierd.

And we had a bit of a rain storm pass over head today and I lost ALL signal strength on the 110 sat. The other sats were fine. Unfortunately most of my Direct TV channels come though the 110 sat.

Anyways, i'm thinking of switching to Dish Network with thier VIP622 receiver. I hear with my antenna and thier HD locals I could actually record 3 local HD channels at the same time which would be quite nice.

Anyone have any opinions on that Dish receiver?

Well that's an original one at least. "We used up all our bits for the day."


The thing is, UO/UCLA was NOT in HD at all.

The thing is, it WOULDN'T have made any difference if it had been.

so how does one go about contacting the station for issues with their OTA signal? call the main number and ask for engineering?

so how does one go about contacting the station for issues with their OTA signal? call the main number and ask for engineering?

Here's a link to the KATU page where you can send them an email message. Contact KATU (http://www.katu.com/about/contact)

I sent them a message in regards to the USC/ASU SD broadcast. Maybe if enough of us mention our frustrations, someone there will take action.

I tried calling the station during the second quarter of USC game to try and talk to someone in engineering. No one answered, all I got was a canned message from Steve Dunn stating that they were receiving a higher than normal number of calls.

The engineer to contact at KATU is Alan Batdorf

ABatdorf@katu.com


Steve

Sounds to me like you have a problem with your reception Schwinn
I can see why you would think that. i don't think that is the case. There just don't seem to be enough members here to get enough reports to know if others are having issues at the same time or not. Sports fans mostly on weekends seem to be the only active sources of info. I've found the stations remarkable silent when sent emails. The guys from stations 32 & 6 who post here seem to be the only info from the stations . Calling into the stations seems to be largely a thing of the past with the way numbers are hard to find and no one answers anyway. Anyone know if Lee @ 6 is still around after the latest buy out of channel 6?

The guys from stations 32 & 6 who post here seem to be the only info from the stations... Anyone know if Lee @ 6 is still around after the latest buy out of channel 6?

Lee and I are still around and we talk once in a while. We always seem to have too much to do which doesn't leave us the luxury of spending much time on this forum. Once in a while Ed from KPDX/KPTV posts here as well.

The latest from ch 32 is our call letter change to KRCW which coincided with our change to the CW network. On the digital side, after way too many months of operation at reduced power and about $125K later, we finally got back to 100% power last Thursday evening. Hopefully, this will help a bit with some reception problems that I have heard about. I also finally got the transmitter setup software to function at 100% so all the proper corrections have been applied and the signal is now extremely "clean" for the decoders to work with. This will also make it much easier for me to maintain that correction as the tubes age.

Pat Shearer
Chief Engineer
Portland's CW
KRCW-TV, KRCW-DT
ch 32 analog, ch 33 digital

Pat,

KRCW was sending MPEG pulldown flags for a while and it seemed to be doing a good job of keeping the blocking away (KOIN uses them too). The Smallville credits suddenly looked perfect. Unfortunately at some point it looked like you stop sending them (at least I dont see the repeat-first-field flag ever being set) and now the Smallville credits is pixelmania just like it was before.

In fact Lee is not only still around but he edited and updated the first post on this forum just last month. Thanks Lee

...and thanks for the update Pat.

Lee and I are still around and we talk once in a while. We always seem to have too much to do which doesn't leave us the luxury of spending much time on this forum. Once in a while Ed from KPDX/KPTV posts here as well.

On the digital side, after way too many months of operation at reduced power and about $125K later, we finally got back to 100% power last Thursday evening. Hopefully, this will help a bit with some reception problems that I have heard about. I also finally got the transmitter setup software to function at 100% so all the proper corrections have been applied and the signal is now extremely "clean" for the decoders to work with. This will also make it much easier for me to maintain that correction as the tubes age.

Pat Shearer
Chief Engineer
Portland's CW
KRCW-TV, KRCW-DT
ch 32 analog, ch 33 digital

Pat, As always thanks for the info. 33 digital was about as close to perfection as possible this evening (10/17/06) I've been lucky to nearly always get a good picture on 33 even with the reduced signal power. It was only during the last two weeks that audio issues showed up and then loss of signal for short periods of time.Smallville last Thursday had a bit of that. All has been good this week, seems the new work has paid off. Thanks again for taking time out of your busy day to write here.

Thanks Pat
Question, are you guys talking to Directv about adding your digital signal to their new MPEG 4 channel lineup. Currently only 8 and 12 are available

Thanks in advance

Here is the list of channels I do get with no problems.

2-1
6-1 6-2
8-1 8-2
12-1
22-1 22-2 22-3 22-4
24-1 24-2 24-3 24-4 24-5
32-1 32-2
49-1

Channel 10 comes in good as an analog signal but I can't seem to get anything on the HD channels. Any suggestions?

Thanks

Here is the list of channels I do get with no problems.

2-1
6-1 6-2
8-1 8-2
12-1
22-1 22-2 22-3 22-4
24-1 24-2 24-3 24-4 24-5
32-1 32-2
49-1

Channel 10 comes in good as an analog signal but I can't seem to get anything on the HD channels. Any suggestions?

Thanks
Have you tried manually tuning to channel 27?

yup

Where are you at KdxGuy?

Channel 6-1 is still has nothing but problems. Tonight it jumps from 0 to 50 on signal strength. The only time lately that I've had a good signal was while it was raining. There's a couple of trees in the way of the signal but it doesn't seem to affect any other station. Every other channel is rock solid with readings in the 80s & 90s. Is 6-1 on a reduced signal or something?

I'm by the I-84 and I-205 junction, I got rocky butte right in my way. I checked and now i am getting pbs, but it's all broken up. maybe the cloud cover and rain is bouncing the signal to me? I thought all the towers were in the same place.

sounds like Frederic is having the same prob with channel 6 as I am having with 10.

Channel 6-1 is still has nothing but problems. Tonight it jumps from 0 to 50 on signal strength. The only time lately that I've had a good signal was while it was raining. There's a couple of trees in the way of the signal but it doesn't seem to affect any other station. Every other channel is rock solid with readings in the 80s & 90s. Is 6-1 on a reduced signal or something?
As soon as it started raining tonight the signal on 6-1 jumped up to the mid 60s. If it takes rain to get a good signal it's a good thing I'm living in Oregon. :) :) :)

> I'm by the I-84 and I-205 junction, I got rocky butte right in my way.
> I checked and now i am getting pbs, but it's all broken up. maybe the
> cloud cover and rain is bouncing the signal to me?

It might help if you described your setup. Antenna: make & model?
indoor? attic? outdoor? Tuner: make & model? make & model of
RF front end and demodulator if known. Are you using any amplifier,
FM trap or other filter, splitter, etc. ?

If enough people post this sort of data, perhaps we can figure out
what does and doesn't work.

How is your reception of analog UHF stations? Any snow, ghosts,
diagonal lines, etc.?

> I thought all the towers were in the same place.

See the very first posting in this thread.

> I thought all the towers were in the same place.
See the very first posting in this thread.
I read the first post. It says "Operating at full power (1,000 kW) from the Sylvan Site shared omnidirectional antenna. (KATU, KOIN and KWBP all use the same transmitting antenna). "
If so why are KATU & KWBP rock solid with signals in the 80s & 90s and KOIN down in the 30s most of the time. I would think that if they're all transmitting at the same strength from the same location they would be received equally.

Also as to KDXGUY channels 8-1,8-2, 10-1,10-2 & all the 22s are on the same tower (Skyline) transmitting at the same strength. Why can he get the 8s & the 22s but not 10s.

TV - 37" Syntax Olevia LCD HD
Antenna - In the attic. Not sure what type. It's been there since 1972.
One two way splitter. One to the TV, one to DirecTV HR10-250
A Radio Shack Attenuator To the HR10-250
Two or three years ago I started having trouble with KOIN (slight ghosting, grainy) on SD OTA. Moving the antenna did nothing.
All other channels come in perfectly. For the first few months since I got the HD TV KOIN was fine. It's just in the last couple of months that I've had problems with it.

I think something fishy is going on with KOIN. I get everyone in the upper 80's and 90's (now that KCWR is back to full power) but KOIN is 71-73. That's not bad enough to cause any drop outs for me but it's lower than in the past.

I think something fishy is going on with KOIN. I get everyone in the upper 80's and 90's (now that KCWR is back to full power) but KOIN is 71-73. That's not bad enough to cause any drop outs for me but it's lower than in the past.

I agree. I used to get receive KOIN very well but in the past couple of months I can't watch it at all. I have had to change all of my tivo recordings to SD over satellite.

My analog UHF channels vary from almost perfect to unwatchable. Channel 22 and 49 are great and the rest are crap. My antenna is some square terk thing that I got from a friend, about 18 inches square and mounts on a sat dish mast up on the roof. One piece of cable (50 feet or so) feeding straight into the back of a samsung dlp tv. The antenna could probably be aimed better but I do get all the channels with no problems except 10. Right now it doesn't come on at all.

KRCW was sending MPEG pulldown flags for a while and it seemed to be doing a good job of keeping the blocking away (KOIN uses them too). The Smallville credits suddenly looked perfect. Unfortunately at some point it looked like you stop sending them (at least I dont see the repeat-first-field flag ever being set) and now the Smallville credits is pixelmania just like it was before.I'll have to check into this issue as I remember a setting for that in the HD encoders that we use. I didn't think anything had changed with that but I will do some investigation. Do you know if this changed with the change from WB to CW in Septemeber? If so, at least that would give me somewhere to start tracking down what changed.


Pat, As always thanks for the info. 33 digital was about as close to perfection as possible this evening (10/17/06) I've been lucky to nearly always get a good picture on 33 even with the reduced signal power. It was only during the last two weeks that audio issues showed up and then loss of signal for short periods of time.Smallville last Thursday had a bit of that. All has been good this week, seems the new work has paid off. Thanks again for taking time out of your busy day to write here.Since the change to CW's satellite distribution, the guys in Seatle have been trying to chase down the dropouts we have experienced. Finally in an act of desperation last week, they installed 2 completely independent sets of equipment from sat dish through receiver so they could do a side by side comparison. The second path was clean so they swapped the two recievers and now both are clean. It was probably a tiny amount of corrosion on the antenna connector of the primary receiver that was causing the dropouts. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it :)

As far as the issue of receiving some but not all the signals even though we are all at full power, there are some quirks in the world of digital broadcasting that we never had in analog. A lot of it has to do with the way the data is actually broadcast as specified by the 8-VSB standard used in this country. Without going into a bunch of technical details, it basically comes down to the fact that the data is sent at one of 8 levels. Data that lands between the levels can get thrown out as invalid by the decoder. That results in lost pixels which the decoder fills in with data from ajacent pixels. That is macro blocking. The "signal strength" reading of a receiver is actually a relative reading of the accuracy of decoding. You can have an extremely strong signal with lots of errors and have a low meter reading. On the flip side, a weak signal with extremely clean decoding would result in a high reading. The only time the signal strength comes into play is when it gets so low that the decoder can't distinguish the valid data from the background noise.

Another factor that comes into play with the difference between two signals from the same antenna is the phase of multipath signals arriving at the receiver. Multipath occurs when a signal bounces off some object and arrives at the receiver as a "ghost" of the main signal. In the analog world, multipath produced actual ghost images in the picture. In digital, multipath produces decoder errors and if those errors become too great, the decoder will fail to produce a picture. Multipath is greatly affected by the frequency of the signal hence the difference of multipath signals from KOIN on ch 40 and KRCW on ch 33. Many times, the solution to this problem is to rotate the antenna slightly thereby reducing or eliminating the multipath. However, it could be detrimental to the reception of another channel so there is not a set formula for making it work.

I hope this post hasn't gotten too technical or long winded but I know that a lot of you guys have inquiring minds and want to know. The transition to digital is an on-going educational experience for those of us on this side of the business. If you ever have insomnia, go to atsc.org where you will find tons of reading material that is sure to put you to sleep. They are the folks that have defined the way we broadcast digital television.

Pat Shearer
Chief Engineer
Portland's CW
KRCW-TV, KRCW-DT
ch 32 analog, ch 33 digital

Thanks for the post Pat. I think I speak for everyone here that a too technical post is preferred to a too simplistic post.

I'll have to check into this issue as I remember a setting for that in the HD encoders that we use. I didn't think anything had changed with that but I will do some investigation. Do you know if this changed with the change from WB to CW in Septemeber? If so, at least that would give me somewhere to start tracking down what changed.
The disappearance of the pulldown flags actually goes all the way back to late May/early June. Smallville on May 25th was the last show to have them. The Smallville you aired on June 15th doesn't have them (man, I need to clean up my disk space!). I didn't mention it because, well you know, summer reruns.

The difference in quality of these two broadcasts is very apparent, even in these 36% reductions. They both averaged 13.2 Mbps but here's a typical comparison:

Snap from credits with pulldown flags (May 25th):

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/SMwithflags.jpg

Snap from credits without pulldown flags (June 15th):

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/SMwithoutflags.jpg

BTW, Pat, thanks for fixing all of the audio problems. Seeing my receiver do the 2.0/5.1 bounce every second at 8PM every night for a week is no way to watch TV. I hope I can get a good copy of the Smallville season premeire when they rerun it (yes, people, I know I could pull it off the Internet).

Does anyone know the power levels that the major Portland stations are currently using to broadcast? I seem to recall reading that they are all transmitting at full power and that they all transmit from the same tower. However, from Corvallis I find the signals quite different. PBS on 10.1 (27) is easy to find, but ABC 2.1(43), CBS 6.1(40), and KPDX 49.1(48) are a no go.

This is probably due more to to adjacent channel interference from the local PBS ststion 7.1 which broadcasts on channel 39 than to what the Portland stations are doing. However I was hoping there was some other reason, and that things might improve in the future. I believe that the local PBS will eventually move to another frequency, but that will not be for quite a while.

Tom

The first page in this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=168423&page=1&pp=30) was updated a month ago with information about the local stations. They don't transmit from the same tower but most of them do transmit from two clusters of towers on the hills west of downtown. These towers should effectively be the same direction at your distance.

Can you get KPTV on 30?

Yes,

I can get KPTV on channel 30 sometimes, but not reliably and I need to play with the antenna aiming a bit. The antenna is on a rotator. I have the best luck with the antenna pointing at about 25 or 30 degrees East, rather than 6 degrees as antennaweb suggests. I suspect that I am still getting some adjacent channel interference from the local PBS station and that aiming the antenna further away from the strong signal allows the weaker one to get get through on one of th lobes.

I have now added two UHF notch filters to try and attenuate 7.1 (39) and ch 14 (analog). Both these stations are very local and in the same general direction as Portland. However, these notch filters are not very selective and I may be attenuating some of the already weak adjacenet channels I am trying to recieve. I wish there were some better low cost single channel filters for addressing very strong local interference.

I would also rather be aiming the antenna in the other direction to try for the closer Eugene stations. That way I would at least not need to aim so close to such a strong local station that is also very close in fequency to the ones I am trying to recieve. However, I am on the side of a hill blocking my direct path to the Eugene towers, and get multipath on all the analog stations from Eugene, and no digital reception at all. Once the digital transition takes place I think my best bet for reception will be Portland.

Tom

> "Operating at full power (1,000 kW) from the Sylvan Site shared
> omnidirectional antenna. (KATU, KOIN and KWBP all use the same
> transmitting antenna). " If so why are KATU & KWBP rock solid with
> signals in the 80s & 90s and KOIN down in the 30s most of the time.
> I would think that if they're all transmitting at the same strength
> from the same location they would be received equally.

That is a very good question, I've been trying to figure that out
for months. I have seen similar problems where one station comes in
great but another station on the same or nearby tower and similar
frequency comes in poorly. And then a few days later the situation
is reversed or otherwise different. I have not found any correlation
with time of day, day of week, weather, etc.

A recent datapoint for KOIN:

At 13% of the way through _The_Taking_of_Pellam_123_ on 2006-10-22
dtvstream reports one glitch:

ERROR in TS 0x31 pkt Continuity Count - expected 12 got 9
ERROR in TS 0x34 pkt Continuity Count - expected 10 got 3

That's good, but not perfect reception.

>> What happened to KPDX digital? Reception was fine last weekend,
>> but this weekend (2006-10-7 & 8) it is horrid. Thousands of
>> dropped packets. KPDX's analog channel is fine, other digital
>> stations are fine.

scowl> KPDX looks fine here. I was able to record Star Trek last night
scowl> with no errors.

Anyone else?

More data, recording Star Trek. Winegard PR-8800 antenna, Thomson DTT7611
tuner, Oren OR51132 demodulator.


date Continuity Counter Errors as reported by dtvstream

2006-09-16 0
2006-09-23 0
2006-09-24 0
2006-09-30 0
2006-10-07 85060
2006-10-08 128725
2006-10-14 24017 (nearly all in last half)
2006-10-15 125509 (identical error count from 2 tuners)
2006-10-21 0
2006-10-22 0


So the problem went away as mysteriously as it came. I made no
changes during this time.

Those of you using HTPC cards to receive the DTV signals should look and see if you can view an Equalizer Tap Energy Display. This will give an excellent indication of multipath interference. See http://www.modsci.com/images/Equalizer%20Tap3.jpg for an example of the type of display. If you see lots of tall bars to the right side of the display you have major multipath. Remember wavelengths of UHF signals are relatively small, 18.764 inches for UHF channel 40 vs. 11.5 feet for channel 6, so it is very easy for enviornmental changes - like wind movig trees or leaves coming and going, to have a major effect on UHF reception. Until the 4th generation (circa early 2005) receivers did not do well with multipath and 5th generation units are only recently began showing up in shipping products.

Someone called up KATU and asked for the switched to be flipped. KATU said that since they showed the Oregon/UCLA game in HD (lie), they couldn't show the USC/ASU game in HD.
The word on the street is that KATU is using an old temporary dish on the roof of their studio to receive feeds while their main dish equipment is being replaced. This regional broadcast was being fed on a transponder with the opposite polarity of what the dish is set up for (the ABC feed). Apparently there was no one around to fix this problem to get the game in HD.

Konrad2, did you read Pat's post? A quick quote:

"Multipath is greatly affected by the frequency of the signal hence the difference of multipath signals from KOIN on ch 40 and KRCW on ch 33."

The 3 station, KATU, KOIN, KWBP may be all from the same tower but will be affected differently due to their different frequencies.

Yes,


I can get KPTV on channel 30 sometimes, but not reliably and I need to play with the antenna aiming a bit.
It could be that the lower UHF stations propogate well enough for you to receive but the upper UHF ones don't. If you're pointing the antenna in a direction other than directly at the towers then the signal you're getting is definitely taking an odd path to you and those paths can often be friendler to lower frequencies.

This is probably due more to to adjacent channel interference from the local PBS ststion 7.1 which broadcasts on channel 39 than to what the Portland stations are doing.
The adjacent channel is probably not the problem. Our analog transmitter site is about 40 miles from our DTV site. We broadcast with 5 megawatts on channel 32 analog and at that site I have no problem picking up our digital signal on channel 33. I have tested using a silver sensor sitting on the ground outside the building so there is nothing but about 180 feet of air separating that receive antenn from the transmit antenna. If there was ever a situation which would cause interference from an adjacent channel, that would certainly qualify.

I have a very good quality log periodic antenna permanently mounted on the side of the building (to keep it above the potential 15' snow level) that is there as a backup in case our microwave system fails. I periodically check on that video feed and the Zenith receiver has been happy picking up our OTA signal reliably for 3 1/2 years even when we have been at reduced power and the exciter a bit out of optimum adjustment.

Scowl - Thanks for the picture examples on the pulldown flag issue. I'm trying to find out more about that issue and what we might be able to do to improve PQ. I have passed along the info to my counterpart in Seattle who actually has control of the HD encoder used to process the signal out of the ROC which includes the HD feed from the CW. I'll let you know when I find out more.

Pat Shearer
Chief Engineer
Portland's CW
KRCW-TV, KRCW-DT
ch 32 analog, ch 33 digital

The word on the street is that KATU is using an old temporary dish on the roof of their studio to receive feeds while their main dish equipment is being replaced. This regional broadcast was being fed on a transponder with the opposite polarity of what the dish is set up for (the ABC feed). Apparently there was no one around to fix this problem to get the game in HD.


Thanks scowl, so it can be blamed on the dish or the transponder. I bet KATU is getting sick of people complaining about their HD or lack thereof for sporting events. Especially since just about every other western ABC station is broadcasting just fine with their equipment.

Thanks scowl, so it can be blamed on the dish or the transponder.
There's some thing-a-ma-jig that you put on the dish to change its polarity but it requires some technical skills to adjust it properly. It's not like flipping a switch. What may have happened is that they set it up for the earlier game but didn't or couldn't send the guy back up there to adjust it for the second game. That would explain the strange story people were getting from KATU about the earlier game messing things up.

The good news is that it's a temporary measure until they get their main dish going again. :)

Scowl - Thanks for the picture examples on the pulldown flag issue. I'm trying to find out more about that issue and what we might be able to do to improve PQ.
The 3:2 pulldown flag was turned off in the encoder in Seattle a few months ago due to some decoder issue that was later resolved. The flag is back on as of this morning so please take a look at the PQ and let me know if you can tell if there is an improvement.

For those interested, here is an article that explains what this is all about:
http://www.dvdfile.com/news/special_report/production_a_z/3_2_pulldown.htm

It seems like it should only affect DVD players and maybe that is why I had not noticed any change on my several receivers here at the station. However, with the use of a PC decoder card, the pulldown flag comes into play as well due to the use of non-interlaced displays and maybe that is why Scowl noticed it.

Pat Shearer
Chief Engineer
Portland's CW
KRCW-TV, KRCW-DT
ch 32 analog, ch 33 digital

Since both DVD and ATSC use MPEG-2, the flags should work identically. If I understand it correctly, using the pulldown flags with filmed content allows you to skip repeating one out of every five frames since the flag tells the receiver to keep a frame in memory for reuse later instead of expecting to receive the frame again. This effectively increases your bandwidth by 20% just like it saves 20% of the space on a DVD. You can use that extra bandwidth to improve the main channel or you can give it to The Tube.

It does allow receivers to display the material progressively if they know how to do it (like progressive DVD players). The flags show how the fields can be put back together to make the original progressive frames.

[QUOTE=Pat Shearer]The adjacent channel is probably not the problem. Our analog transmitter site is about 40 miles from our DTV site. We broadcast with 5 megawatts on channel 32 analog and at that site I have no problem picking up our digital signal on channel 33.


Thanks for the information, but now I really do not know what my problem is. I have been trying to prepare for the digital transition for a while now and have had very little success. My original receiver was a MYHP PC card and I only got the local PBS station with that. Recently I got more serious and upgraded to a HUMAX receiver that was getting good reviews, but it performs only marginally better in my situation.

I live on the side of a hill that blocks a direct view of the Eugene stations so they have always been a problem with a lot of multipath. In fact the multipath indoors was bad enough that I did not even get the local PBS ststion reliably. I figured that a roof top antenna with a rotator would help with both signal strength and multipath, so put one up this summer.

The antenna I am using is a CM 8 bay bowtie. It was well rated here and elsewhere, and also provides some VHF reception, but I do not know if it is really directional enough for my needs. I expected to be able to receive the Eugene or Portland stations using this antenna, but so far have not had very much luck.

The antenna has not helped much with the Eugene stastions, but I now get good analog reception on several Portland stations and the digital Portland PBS station ch 10.1. I can ocationally receive some other digital stations, but not reliably. When I looked at the frequency of the stations I have the most trouble with they were very close to the local PBS station so I stated to suspect co channel interference, or perhaps overload induced intermoduation distortion.

PBS channel 7.1 is less than two miles away from me and in the exact direction of the Portland stations. Broadcasting on ch 39 it is very near the frequency of the Portland stations I am trying to receive. If I connect the antenna directly to my receiver I usually cannot detect any of the Portland stations. This may be due to the fact that I need to run 50 feet of RG-6 to get the signal to the receiver and the weak signals from the Portland stations may be getting attenuated too much along the way. I know that an amp is probably not a good idea because of my proximity to the local stations, but tried one anyway because of the long cable run.

In my last house I was further from town so I have two CM amplifiers left over from that installation. I have a CM 7777 preamp, and some other CM distribution amp (don't remember the number.) The 7777 is not the best choice for where I am now, and I cannot use it directly without overloading it, but if I use an attenuator and/or tunable notch filters to reduce CH 39 and also do not connect a VHF input, I seem to get undistorted output. Using it I can get better analog reception on the Portland stations and some digital reception.

I have occasional access to a oscilloscope with a pseudo spectrum analyzer function so I can look at the signals and see when they start to get distorted. I can also get an idea of relative signal strengths from the stations. I have also used it to help tune the notch filters. So far I have had no luck getting any of the Portland stations without using one of the amps, but I am not sure an amp is such a great idea for me being so close to a transmitter.

When I use the distribution amp I have had less luch, but I also have not been able to get it as close to the antenna as the preamp because there is no outlet in the attic where the coax enters the house. I guess I could try running power closer to the antenna so I could try the distribution amp close to the antenna, or perhaps see how close I could bring the receiver to the antenna and see how well it works right at the source. But it is more of a crawl space than an attic so I do not know how practical that is.

The other choice is to find a better notch filter for channel 39 to see if it really is the cause of the problem. but if you have any better ideas let me know.

Tom

PBS channel 7.1 is less than two miles away from me and in the exact direction of the Portland stations.
Yikes, isn't this about sixty miles from the Portland towers? :eek:

I agree. I used to get receive KOIN very well but in the past couple of months I can't watch it at all. I have had to change all of my tivo recordings to SD over satellite.

Same thing here, I used to get KOIN fine, I didn't watch much tv over the summer but now that the new season has started, I've have all kinds of problems.

Yikes, isn't this about sixty miles from the Portland towers? :eek:


Yes it is about sixty miles to Portland.

When I started out I expected to be receiving Eugene stations which are about 30 miles away. Antenna web lead me to believe those would be the stations I would get with the least effort. But I do not know how well they accounted for the hill behind my house or multipath from other directions. Strangely enough I get much better results trying to receive Portland stations for both analog and digital. This is probably due to a better line of sight to the towers.

I have had the best luck as follows. The antenna feeds a UHF VHF splitter, and that feeds an upper VHF lower VHF splitter. The lower vhf output of that splitter has very little other than analog 2 and 6 from Portland and 4 digital, but 4 currently gets co channel interference from an analog station so I doubt I will be able to do much with that.

The lower VHF is week enough that I can run that through a pre-amp and get analog ch 2 from Portland and a very weak channel 6 (possibly due to FM filtering). The upper VHF has such a strong signal from channel 7 that I do not try to amplify that at all and get very good analog ch 7 and marginal channel 9 and 13 from Eugene.

The UHF portion is where all of the digital stations lie. I have tried using the UHF signal directly with no amplification, but do not get very good analog or digital reception that way. Most of that problem seems to be due to the long run back to the set and a splitter, so I use a distribution amp to get the signal to the receiver.

This is where I need to be careful not to overload the distribution amp and had to add a notch filter to attenuate channel 39, and 14 to keep the signals clean. This keeps the local stations from overloading the amp and allows me to receive some additional digital stations. But I do not think my notch filter is narrow enough because the other channels near 39 are now no where to be found, while those further away (in frequency) come through.

I know I am comparing apples and oranges, but it is frustrating to get reasonably good analog reception from Portland and to get reliable digital reception on some channels (like PBS that I get locally already) but have so much trouble with most of the others when they are broadcasting at similar power levels and locations.

Tom

The 3:2 pulldown flag was turned off in the encoder in Seattle a few months ago due to some decoder issue that was later resolved. The flag is back on as of this morning so please take a look at the PQ and let me know if you can tell if there is an improvement.
I can see the flags are being passed now and I can display direct progressive frames but I can't say if there's an improvement yet since both Gilmore Girls and Vernonica Mars are shot on 16mm and are pretty soft. I'll really need to compare the Smallville credits since that's my benchmark.

Unfortunately, the audio problem from a few weeks ago is back. During the program, the sound bounces from 5.1 to 2.0 to nothing every second or two. The audio is an unlistenable mess. During commercials there are no audio problems at all, even HD commercials with 5.1 audio. This is the case both OTA and on Comcast.

Also, the captions *sigh* are a few seconds behind the dialog. I didn't notice until tonight since I've never had to use them. I know this has been a problem in the past.

I hope I haven't gotten you into more work than you needed right now. :confused:

I know I am comparing apples and oranges, but it is frustrating to get reasonably good analog reception from Portland and to get reliable digital reception on some channels (like PBS that I get locally already) but have so much trouble with most of the others when they are broadcasting at similar power levels and locations.
Can you get analog channels 8, 10, and 12 from Portland? Once analog is shut off, these Portland stations will be moving back to these upper VHF channels. Most likely the Eugene upper VHF stations will be digital as well and at least you'll have ABC and CBS.

Do you get any signal at all from KVAL-DT on 25? They're broadcasting full power and the lower UHF might propagate better around the hill.

Can you get analog channels 8, 10, and 12 from Portland? Once analog is shut off, these Portland stations will be moving back to these upper VHF channels. Most likely the Eugene upper VHF stations will be digital as well and at least you'll have ABC and CBS.

Do you get any signal at all from KVAL-DT on 25? They're broadcasting full power and the lower UHF might propagate better around the hill.

I do get analog stations 10 and 12 from Portland, but not 8. That may be due to the local PBS being so close to it in direction and frequency that it gets buried in the receiver by automatic gain control. However, the picture is a bit snowy, so I do not know if I will be able to receive them in digital after the transition. I do not however receive any digital stations from Eugene including KVAL-DT on 25 which is probably a best case scenario for digital reception from that direction.

I hope with the new allocations after the transition that things will improve, but right now I stand to loose several stations. My current plan is to run a new shorter connection directly to the receiver. This requires working in a tight section of the attic so it will have to wait till I have more time. But if I get a shorter more direct connection to the antenna and remove the distribution amp that may be enough to push me over the top at least for CBS.

I'm thinking that you would have more luck replacing the multi-bowtie with the biggest Yagi you can find. The Portland stations should be a tiny fraction of a degree apart at your distance so you can point a powerful Yagi at them and reduce the amount of signal you're getting from your nearby PBS station.

I'm thinking that you would have more luck replacing the multi-bowtie with the biggest Yagi you can find. The Portland stations should be a tiny fraction of a degree apart at your distance so you can point a powerful Yagi at them and reduce the amount of signal you're getting from your nearby PBS station.


Well, I do not really want to replace the antenna I have unless that becomes my last resort. But I doubt that I could get any additional separation of the Portland Stations and the local PBS anyway. They seem exactly in the same direction from where I am. I was considering a Yagi more in hopes that it might solve my multipath problems with the Eugene stations and I could try to get those much closer stations.

I guess right now I get everything I want on Analog and enough digital to keep me happy for a while. I will just try not to worry and hope that the new allocations in 2009 clear up at least some of my problems.

Pat> The adjacent channel is probably not the problem. Our analog transmitter site is
Pat> about 40 miles from our DTV site. We broadcast with 5 megawatts on channel 32
Pat> analog and at that site I have no problem picking up our digital signal on
Pat> channel 33. I have tested using a silver sensor sitting on the ground outside
Pat> the building so there is nothing but about 180 feet of air separating that
Pat> receive antenn from the transmit antenna. If there was ever a situation which
Pat> would cause interference from an adjacent channel, that would certainly qualify.

What tuner did you use that has such excellent adjacent channel rejection?
And how many dB was the 32 signal above the 33 signal?

I often get channel 6 interfering with channel 5. (and KBVM 88.3 FM interfered
with chan 6 until I trapped out the FM band)

Tom> The other choice is to find a better notch filter for channel 39 to see if it
Tom> really is the cause of the problem.

That's the route I would try first, if you can find a better filter.
Do you have another source for CBS? It would take quite the filter to trap
out 39 without killing 40.

Tom> The 7777 is not the best choice for where I am now, and I cannot use it directly
Tom> without overloading it

Winegard has a preamp that is said to resist overloading better than the CM7777.

Tom> if I use an attenuator

At 60 miles out, your signal/noise ratio might be low enough that an attenuator
could reduce it too much. Digital needs at least 15.something dB in theory, and
more in real life.

Another route, if you think your problem is mostly signal strength, and if your
tuner can handle the adjacent channel interference, would be to try ganging
multiple antennas together:

http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/16bay.html
http://www.hdtvprimer.com/ANTENNAS/32bay.html

Or trying to find one of the large parabolic UHF antennas, or converting
a large satellite dish into a UHF antenna.

Bigger antennas would be a hassle to construct, and have significant space, weight
and windload issues to deal with. Personally, I'd save this idea for last.

What tuner did you use that has such excellent adjacent channel rejection? And how many dB was the 32 signal above the 33 signal?The receiver is a 4 year old Zenith but I don't remember the model number and I never measured the signal levels. However, the point is that the digital receiver sees the analog signal as increased noise. As long as the intended signal over the noise (signal to noise ratio) is high enough, the dtv receiver will be able to decode properly.

I can see the flags are being passed now and I can display direct progressive frames but I can't say if there's an improvement yet since both Gilmore Girls and Vernonica Mars are shot on 16mm and are pretty soft. I'll really need to compare the Smallville credits since that's my benchmark.
Unfortunately, we had the encoder in Seattle crash on us yesterday so now the flags are turned off again. We will try turning it on again next week to see if it causes instability.

Unfortunately, the audio problem from a few weeks ago is back. During the program, the sound bounces from 5.1 to 2.0 to nothing every second or two. The audio is an unlistenable mess. During commercials there are no audio problems at all, even HD commercials with 5.1 audio. This is the case both OTA and on Comcast.That's a new one to me. I have not heard of this problem before and when I sampled a couple of nights ago, everything was fine during CW HD programming.

Also, the captions *sigh* are a few seconds behind the dialog. I didn't notice until tonight since I've never had to use them. I know this has been a problem in the past.The slow deterioration of the encoder before the crash led to all kinds of problems with captions. They are back to normal as of 5:30 this morning. It took a power cycle of the encoder to clear this one as a warm reboot didn't work yesterday.

Pat Shearer
Chief Engineer
Portland's CW
KRCW-TV, KRCW-DT
ch 32 analog, ch 33 digital

[QUOTE=Konrad2]Pat> The adjacent channel is probably not the problem. Our analog transmitter site is

Konrad2]Pat>What tuner did you use that has such excellent adjacent channel rejection?
Konrad2]Pat>And how many dB was the 32 signal above the 33 signal?

Ditto. I know I was getting adjacent channel reception problems with my last receiver. The Humax is better, but I am not convinced that it will really be able to handel such strong adjacent signals. But if there are receivers that handel this condition better I would like to know as well.

Konrad2]Pat>That's the route I would try first, if you can find a better filter.
Konrad2]Pat>Do you have another source for CBS? It would take quite the filter to trap
Konrad2]Pat>out 39 without killing 40.

I have tried the Channel Master tunable UHF filter. It seems to work, but is not as selective as I hoped. I also experimented with homemade 1/2 wave shorted and 1/4 wave open stub filters. They look good on the spectrum analyzer as far as cutting total power at a specific frequency, but they seem to introduce distortion as well. I can see the effects od the distrotion by viewing near by analog stations. Perhaps I just need need better construction techniques, but right now I have just about given up with stub filters.

A "real" filter designed specifically for this type of situation would cost several hundred dollars and I will do without a station or two before spending that much. Besides, I get CBS right now on analog, and after that get turned off I am hoping the reallocation of frequencies will eliminate this specific issue.

Konrad2]Pat>Winegard has a preamp that is said to resist overloading better than the CM7777.

Yes, but I am not using the 7777 for anything other than VHF analog reception right now. I have a distribution amp I can use that seems much more tolerant of overload. It was from the setup at my old house and is not designed for outdoor installation, but I can run a short cable into the attic and install it there. Right now I an testing it at the end of a longer section of coax, but I plan to try getting it closer to the antenna and see if that helps.

Konrad2]Pat>At 60 miles out, your signal/noise ratio might be low enough that an attenuator
Konrad2]Pat>could reduce it too much. Digital needs at least 15.something dB in theory, and
Konrad2]Pat>more in real life.

Yes, I suspected the same thing. I am focusing now on shortening the path to my receiver, or to a distribution amp, or trying to find a way to attenuate only ch 39 using a filter. Since I had the pre-amp from my old house I was experimenting with using it with an attenuator ahead of it, but as you point out I found little value in this.

Konrad2]Pat>Another route, if you think your problem is mostly signal strength, and if your
Konrad2]Pat>tuner can handle the adjacent channel interference, would be to try ganging
Konrad2]Pat>multiple antennas together:

No. I don't think I would try that. I think I am pushing the limits of the weight I want to carry on the mount right now. I have a gable mount since my roof is some sort of fake tile that I do not want to breach. Not to mention that I have already "surprized" my SO and neighbors with enough lately in the way of roof ornamentation. Besides, the stations that I do recieve (analog and digital) suggest that I may have enough antenna already if I juggle the other parts of the system.

This might not be the correct forum but I couldn't find a different one. I was wondering if anybody in the Portland/Vancouver area has had experience with "Wolf Service Center" for HDTV repairs (specifically DLP repairs).

They are best buy's preferred repair center out here and i couldnt find much info about them.

Thanks.

That's a new one to me. I have not heard of this problem before and when I sampled a couple of nights ago, everything was fine during CW HD programming.
Someone else was also experiencing this problem. I verified it using a Comcast cable box going straight into a Panasonic SA-XR70 receiver to make sure that none of the wacky HTPC stuff I do could be causing this problem. My receiver is seeing DD2.0 and DD5.1 data mixed together in the stream and it takes a second to switch between these two modes which gives me dropouts. Perhaps other receivers can switch fast enough that it isn't noticible.

Tonight Smallville started with dropouts to 5.1 (i.e. silence) but after a few minutes settled properly on 2.0 (which Smallville is still broadcast in).

Originally Posted by scowl
Unfortunately, the audio problem from a few weeks ago is back. During the program, the sound bounces from 5.1 to 2.0 to nothing every second or two. The audio is an unlistenable mess. During commercials there are no audio problems at all, even HD commercials with 5.1 audio. This is the case both OTA and on Comcast.


That's a new one to me. I have not heard of this problem before and when I sampled a couple of nights ago, everything was fine during CW HD programming.



I can confirm that it's happening to me also. In fact my recollection is that each episode of Smallville so far this year has had the problem at the begining.

Earl

(edited to add...) It seems that Veronica Mars has suffered the same fate on occasion also.

I heard the same thing on Smallville tonight as well. Every episode this season has had sound problems on my system too. I'm using a dishnetwork 6000 receiver with the OTA tuner.

No problems that I noticed with Smallville tonight & last week was perfect ! The two weeks before that as reported here 32.1 was having all kinds of audio issues and video going dead . The power increase seemed to fix things. I did see a few small gliches during Veronica Mars this week but all in all I'd say 32.1 's reception is pretty solid . For me 2.1 has had the most issues by far in the last year. Pretty good right now . They don't answer emails period nor the phone during primetime nor do they appear here... So guess they don't care.

jabbawabba,

Wolf serviced my pioneer plasma to my complete satisfaction. They were the co pioneer directed me to.

The audio for Veronica Mars this week was the same mess for me. Before that, the audio had been flawless for a couple of weeks. Apparently some receivers are better at sorting this stuff out. Mine takes a fraction of a second to switch between 2.0 and 5.1 so when this happens continuously, I get mostly no audio.

Does anyone know where I would find a more complete list of Oregon stations, current frequency assignments, and intended "move to" frequency assignments for these stations after the transition?

I have seached the site a bit, and I see this information posted for the major Portland stations. I also occationaly run into comments about plans for one of the smaller stations or local translators. However, I have never found a complete list 9here or elsewher) that shows this kind of information for all of the Oregon stations. Is this information available somewhere? Or has it not even been finalized yet for many of the smaller stations?

Tom

Here's the most current proposed table of allotments from the FCC, just released last month.
It's 116 pages, and the Oregon stations are listed on page 43.... also see pages 93 and 94

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-150A1.pdf

I guess starting Smallville in SD, then switching to HD a couple of minutes in, is better than the phasing audio. :)

Veronica Mars was great again this week, no audio issues at all.

Dammit, I had the bouncing 5.1 to 2.0 audio immediately after the last commerical break during Veronica Mars. It recovered about ten minutes into it. Fortunately the closed captioning was working so I got to find out what happened.

Here's the most current proposed table of allotments from the FCC, just released last month.
It's 116 pages, and the Oregon stations are listed on page 43.... also see pages 93 and 94

http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-150A1.pdf

Thanks, this list helps, but it still is not complete. For example it does not include the Corvallis stations. Since these are translators they do not seem to show up on most lists.

Tom

Corvallis stations are out of Eugene and if you are lucky a Portland station or two. That looks like a complete list of the broadcast areas for Oregon to me.

I have a rooftop antenna feeding an integrated HDTV/receiver.

I'm getting most of my HD channels (or digitial channels) fine, but 8-1 just show signal low. This just started sometime this afternoon (11/3).

I just checked and I'm getting everything except 8-1 and 49-1, both of them show low signal. I am getting 10-1 and 10-2. I'm also getting 32-1 and 2-1 and 6-1.
I'm about 12 miles east of downtown. antenna aimed reasonably well based on antenae.org site direction.

Are others having a problem with 8-1? Would rain effect only these channels?

I can get the analog channel 8 ok.

Thanks,
Rick

"Are others having a problem with 8-1? Would rain effect only these channels?

I can get the analog channel 8 ok.

Thanks,
Rick" end Quote

8PM Friday 11.3.06
All the Portland channels are great except 12-1 no signal period! So I watching "Vanished" in analog on 12.
You bet the rain can make a difference so can the leaves or lack of leaves or wet versus dry leaves.
12.1 has always been my problem station. I have a winter (no leaves) and summer full leaves antenna placement. Problem is the inbetween times in the fall and spring when neither seem to work regularly . None of the other stations are so picky about antenna placement . I'm apox 2.3 miles from the towers which means I'm likely in an area where signal is weaker then expected because the signal over shoots this area some what . All in all I'm pretty lucky with reception other then digital has a long ways to go till the kinks are worked out.

I've seen no changes in signals at all over the past couple of weeks but I'm at the prime distance from the towers.

The word on the street is that KATU is using an old temporary dish on the roof of their studio to receive feeds while their main dish equipment is being replaced. This regional broadcast was being fed on a transponder with the opposite polarity of what the dish is set up for (the ABC feed). Apparently there was no one around to fix this problem to get the game in HD.

The UCLA / Cal game is being broadcast in SD on 2.1.

If tonights SD broadcast is because of the same issue that Scowl informed us of in the quote above, it's totally inexcusable. Three weeks have passed since then - more than enough time to get equipment repaired, have an engineer on stand by, or come up with some other contingency plan.

Way to go Fisher communications.

Just to make things clear. Rain by it's self isn't likely to be much of an issue with digital reception. It's wet trees verses dry trees made worse if the leaves are still on. I've got a 4 story plus tree across the street in the line of sight of the towers and it's still full of leaves.

The UCLA / Cal game is being broadcast in SD on 2.1.

If tonights SD broadcast is because of the same issue that Scowl informed us of in the quote above, it's totally inexcusable. Three weeks have passed since then - more than enough time to get equipment repaired, have an engineer on stand by, or come up with some other contingency plan.

Way to go Fisher communications.


Agreed, again Portland is the ONLY major market that would have received an HD game at 5pm that did not get the game in HD.

I sent an email yesterday to KATU Customer Service to complain and asking for an explanation. No reply yet.

"Are others having a problem with 8-1? Would rain effect only these channels?

I can get the analog channel 8 ok.

Thanks,
Rick" end Quote

8PM Friday 11.3.06
All the Portland channels are great except 12-1 no signal period! So I watching "Vanished" in analog on 12.
You bet the rain can make a difference so can the leaves or lack of leaves or wet versus dry leaves.
12.1 has always been my problem station. I have a winter (no leaves) and summer full leaves antenna placement. Problem is the inbetween times in the fall and spring when neither seem to work regularly . None of the other stations are so picky about antenna placement . I'm apox 2.3 miles from the towers which means I'm likely in an area where signal is weaker then expected because the signal over shoots this area some what . All in all I'm pretty lucky with reception other then digital has a long ways to go till the kinks are worked out.

OK, thanks. I guess I must be seeing some leaves on trees or something. Reception last few days for 8-1 has been irregualr, It's clears up and comes in then occasioanlly I lose it. Other channels seem to be holding up.

I receive a good picture from 32-1, the KRCW-DT, but the reception I get from channel 5 is really bad. I often record shows to watch later, and usually have to record from satellite channel 32 rather than directly from channel 5 because of reception problem for 5.

I actually used to have a good pic, but a while back, quite a while actually, it went bad, I thought it was becuase of power problems WB was having, but I understand those have been fixed.

I'm hesitant to rotate antenna, since 32-1 and most other stations look good. Any other suggestions?

Thanks
Rick

OK, thanks. I guess I must be seeing some leaves on trees or something. Reception last few days for 8-1 has been irregualr, It's clears up and comes in then occasioanlly I lose it. Other channels seem to be holding up.

A lot of debris has been blowing around the past week or so, check your antenna to see if it has been moved a bit by wind or debris. Heck the earthquake on Sunday made Desperate Housewives audio go funky for about 10 seconds, so it can be many things that give your signal the fits!

I sent an email yesterday to KATU Customer Service to complain and asking for an explanation. No reply yet.

I an others had audio/Video sync issues for months with 2.1 . I sent at least 3 emails to enginering department & customer service. Never got a reply . The problem seems to be mostly fixed now but wasn't for nearly a year off and on. They also do not answer the phone during the evening never tried calling during the day. Best of luck.

I just purchased my first HDTV and am trying to figure out how to improve my OTA reception. All the stations I want to pick up are within 1 degree of each other and are 43.4 miles from my home. Signals seem to bounce around quite a bit, typically 76 to 84, but a couple times a minute drops down to 41. All the stations seem to do this as well, even 10.1 which is averaging 87 to 93 signal strength. SNR is ranging high teens low twenties, and AGC is ranging 30’s to 40’s. I’m trying to figure out if it’s my antenna, connections, or TV.

Here’s what I have:
Sony sxrd-r60-xbr2
25 ft RG6
LPDA antenna in the attic (yeah I know, not ideal)

When I checked antennaweb it recommends a yellow antenna type. This really surprised me since all the stations are 43 miles away.

I assume mounting the antenna on the roof will increase the signal strength. But is it normal for it to fluctuate that much, and why always dropping to 41?

I an others had audio/Video sync issues for months with 2.1 . I sent at least 3 emails to enginering department & customer service. Never got a reply . The problem seems to be mostly fixed now but wasn't for nearly a year off and on. They also do not answer the phone during the evening never tried calling during the day. Best of luck.

I did get a reply from KATU Engineering last night. But Mark Sutton totally misunderstood what I was complaining about. I used the example of the ABC graphic during the UCLA/Cal game that said HD was courtesy of DirecTV, to "prove" ABC was sending the game in HD. He put me off as a DirecTV customer telling me how sat providers were not required to carry locals in HD.

But he did go on to say, "KATU does carry all ABC programming that arrives in HDTV format as HDTV over-the-air." HA! I challenged that in my reply to him and told him I got his signals both OTA and via Comcast and neither was in HD for that game or the others the prior weeks.

everyone at KATU is a dumbass. I hate that station.

They're trying to pass the buck off from their engineering department to anyone else. I bet the Texas game this week is shown in HD since it's a national broadcast, and not like the past couple of weeks of regional broadcasts.

I just purchased my first HDTV and am trying to figure out how to improve my OTA reception. All the stations I want to pick up are within 1 degree of each other and are 43.4 miles from my home. Signals seem to bounce around quite a bit, typically 76 to 84, but a couple times a minute drops down to 41. All the stations seem to do this as well, even 10.1 which is averaging 87 to 93 signal strength. SNR is ranging high teens low twenties, and AGC is ranging 30’s to 40’s. I’m trying to figure out if it’s my antenna, connections, or TV.

Here’s what I have:
Sony sxrd-r60-xbr2
25 ft RG6
LPDA antenna in the attic (yeah I know, not ideal)

When I checked antennaweb it recommends a yellow antenna type. This really surprised me since all the stations are 43 miles away.

I assume mounting the antenna on the roof will increase the signal strength. But is it normal for it to fluctuate that much, and why always dropping to 41?
It sounds like multi-path (reflected signal) problems. Try changing the position of your antenna, even a slight movement can help with such issues. (not just re-aiming, but movement on all three axis)
This time of year brings out the worst in multi-path problems, with the wind, wet leaves, and the other seasonal changes. In my case the neighbors have a BIG maple tree, so I had to position my antenna so it would no longer be in the line of site.
It can be frustrating, but given that you indicate a good signal most of the time, I would say it would be worth the effort and time spent.

Thanks for the tip earletp! It appears that the rain was a major source of my problems. Last night was the first dry night since I bought the TV and the signals were all pretty steady. I still find it interesting that with all the towers in one spot why one channel (6.1) has a signal of 70 while another (10.1) has one of 94. Could this be cause by the fact that 10.1 has a lower frequency assignment?

Thanks for the tip earletp! It appears that the rain was a major source of my problems. Last night was the first dry night since I bought the TV and the signals were all pretty steady. I still find it interesting that with all the towers in one spot why one channel (6.1) has a signal of 70 while another (10.1) has one of 94. Could this be cause by the fact that 10.1 has a lower frequency assignment?
Here are a couple of posts that you may find of interest, Lee is the head engineer at KOIN and Pat is the one at KRCW (formally KWBP)

Remember wavelengths of UHF signals are relatively small, 18.764 inches for UHF channel 40 vs. 11.5 feet for channel 6, so it is very easy for enviornmental changes - like wind movig trees or leaves coming and going, to have a major effect on UHF reception.

Another factor that comes into play with the difference between two signals from the same antenna is the phase of multipath signals arriving at the receiver. Multipath occurs when a signal bounces off some object and arrives at the receiver as a "ghost" of the main signal. In the analog world, multipath produced actual ghost images in the picture. In digital, multipath produces decoder errors and if those errors become too great, the decoder will fail to produce a picture. Multipath is greatly affected by the frequency of the signal hence the difference of multipath signals from KOIN on ch 40 and KRCW on ch 33. Many times, the solution to this problem is to rotate the antenna slightly thereby reducing or eliminating the multipath. However, it could be detrimental to the reception of another channel so there is not a set formula for making it work.


Pat Shearer
Chief Engineer
Portland's CW
KRCW-TV, KRCW-DT
ch 32 analog, ch 33 digital

Corvallis stations are out of Eugene and if you are lucky a Portland station or two. That looks like a complete list of the broadcast areas for Oregon to me.

One bit of information I did not find on any list (perhaps it does not exist yet) is what will happen to the local Corvallis stations after the transition.

The two closest stations to me are the OPB translator VHF 79analog) and UHF 39(digital) and channel 14 analog. Does anyone know what these stations will do after the transition? Will PBS keep the translator at 39, or switch back to VHF? And what will Ch 14 do?

These stations are so close to me that what they do may affect my ability to get more distant stations.

Tom

While from a distance the towers may appear to be in one spot....repeat after me the towers are not in one spot!!!! This mistake is printed here so often it has been excepted as the truth ;-) I can see the towers from my yard up the hill. While close to each other if the info is true at antennaweb.com the far west tower is as far as 1/2 a mile from the far east tower and there is one in the middle! This is surely enough distance to make buildings , hills and trees etc affect different towers an stations in very different ways. It would also seem that different stations maybe located at different heights on the towers.
Antennaweb.com shows distance and compass directions from me as:
east tower 1.9- 2.0 miles channels 2.1,6.1,22.1 ,32.1 compass 217-218º
Middle tower 2.4 miles channels 8.1,10.1,12.1 compass235º
West tower 2.6 miles channel 49.1 compass 238º

Above from antennaweb .avs forum front page refers to 12.1 being located at the KPTV site and that 49.1 will relocate to that site after digital change over is complete . Not sure exactly why it's worded that way nor if it means 12.1 is on a different tower then antennaweb says or ? It would have been less confusing to call it the Skyline site if antennaweb info is true . Since 10.1 & 8.1 are listed as being at the Skyline site along with 12.1 .
It is likely that the more distance you have from the towers the distance apart becomes less important but still they are not all coming from the same exact tower and antenna as it may seem from reading here.
While perhaps nit picking I'm hoping correct info may make things less confussing.
I'm sure (and hope) I'll be corrected if I got any of this wrong ;-)

While from a distance the towers may appear to be in one spot....repeat after me the towers are not in one spot!!!! This mistake is printed here so often it has been excepted as the truth ;-)
I completely disagree with this premise, I don't recall anyone ever saying that all stations broadcast from exactly the same location. If you have any doubt, read the first post in this thread.


I can see the towers from my yard up the hill. While close to each other if the info is true at antennaweb.com the far west tower is as far as 1/2 a mile from the far east tower and there is one in the middle! This is surely enough distance to make buildings , hills and trees etc affect different towers an stations in very different ways. It would also seem that different stations maybe located at different heights on the towers.
This has also been discussed in this thread.


It is likely that the more distance you have from the towers the distance apart becomes less important but still they are not all coming from the same exact tower and antenna as it may seem from reading here.

Not just "likely", but an absolute fact. The farther you are away from the towers, it could end up less than a fraction of a degree difference in the aiming of your antenna. Whether you are east/west, or north/south also effects the "separation" of the antenna's.
I still have no idea how you came to the conclusion that they are "all coming from the same exact tower and antenna as it may seem from reading here."

OH!!
I'm sure (and hope) I'll be corrected if I got any of this wrong

;)

"OH!!
Quote:
I'm sure (and hope) I'll be corrected if I got any of this wrong"

Yes, and I ment it but only correct info counts ;-) You only have to go up 3 or so posts to find why I said "repeat after me the towers aren't all in one spot" There are more posts repeating this wrong info then there are ones with correct info. Read all the posts if you don't believe me!!!
Just in case you can't see it:
"Thanks for the tip earletp! It appears that the rain was a major source of my problems. Last night was the first dry night since I bought the TV and the signals were all pretty steady. I still find it interesting that with all the towers in one spot why one channel (6.1) has a signal of 70 while another (10.1) has one of 94. Could this be cause by the fact that 10.1 has a lower frequency assignment?" end Quote :-)

I also think it important to note that while the distance between towers is less important the farther you are from them it still can make a difference in reception for people having issues with one channel and not another.

Yes, that was said, this was also said by the same person...
All the stations I want to pick up are within 1 degree of each other and are 43.4 miles from my home.
For his purpose, all the stations are in one spot. Is that technically not correct, sure, but in this case it doesn't matter. No one was deliberately posting incorrect information.
Go ahead and split hairs, but I still do not accept your premise that people here post false information because "This mistake is printed here so often it has been excepted as the truth".

....
Above from antennaweb .avs forum front page refers to 12.1 being located at the KPTV site and that 49.1 will relocate to that site after digital change over is complete . Not sure exactly why it's worded that way nor if it means 12.1 is on a different tower then antennaweb says or ? It would have been less confusing to call it the Skyline site if antennaweb info is true . Since 10.1 & 8.1 are listed as being at the Skyline site along with 12.1 .
...
While perhaps nit picking I'm hoping correct info may make things less confussing.
I'm sure (and hope) I'll be corrected if I got any of this wrong ;-)

KPTV is not located on the Skyline site along with KGW, KOPB and KPXG. They own the tower just west of the Skyline site. KPDX is located on the next tower west that sits on leased land.

When the DTV conversion began KPTV and KPDX had separate owners. Now that they are co-owned by Meredith it makes sense that when KPTV-DT moves back to channel 12 that KPDX-DT would take over the channel 30 DTV facilites located on the Meredith owned KPTV tower rather than keep leasing the present KPDX tower site.

I have corrected the KPDX entry on the first page to make it clear that at the end of the DTV transition KPDX will take over the current DTV transmission facilities of KPTV-DT on UHF channel 30.

Lee, Thanks for taking the time to again timely answer a question. I suppected from the info that 12.1 and 49.1 were not on the Skyline towers as listed by antennaweb but couldn't be sure. The fact that there is a 4th tower makes things clearer to me. 12.1 being on it's own tower also answers why I have issues with it and not the other channels on that tower(No other channels are currently on the 12.1 Tower). and that info wasn't previously clear or really avaliable.
I'm trying to track down why some channels have issues and others don't . Lee's report that there are 4 towers and earlier report on how different frequencies affect reception has helped greatly. It is also now clear to me that the 4 towers are spread out over apox a .6 mile area. So while from a distance the degree setting maybe the same for your antenna there are still other factors that can affect reception. Given that the towers are spread out over a greater then 1/2 mile area depending on where you are located some towers or antennas maybe blocked by trees, buildings or hills etc and not others. I hope this will help people realize why they may have issues with some channels. It sure answers why I have problems with 12.1 and not the others given that it's on a seperate tower. It seems to me that I and many others were confused by "the towers are all in one location" answer. I understand there may not be much one can do about reception if you are at a location where the towers are at or near the same degree location. At least we now know there is a reason for recepton problems that before seemed mysterious or perhaps wondering if the station was having issues(which sometimes they are). Sorry if it sounded like I was pointing fingers .If insisting on correct info is nit picking so be it.

Here's the response I got back from KATU re: my e-mail about the HD games being broadcast in SD.

Hi Richard,

HD is still in a very tentative state. The equipment needed to produce,
record, edit and transmit a program or event EACH needs to be HD
equivalent. That's a tremendous amount of cash outlay. Some broadcast
groups have been able to make the total transition. Others, such as
ourselves, have not.

As you know, our entire transmission is converted, but at this time,
only ABC Prime time programming, along with select sporting events are
in true HD.

As far as ABC goes, until each of the dozens of small, independent
sports broadcasters that are contracted to televise regional games, in
addition to each of the production companies that supply entertainment
programming are able to make the investment, there will be no true HD
there, either.

Things are changing quickly, and all parties involved are certainly well
aware of the need to convert - as quickly as feasible. Hang in there -
and thanks for taking the time to write.

Sincerely,

Julie Mespelt
KATU Program Administrator

Too bad KATU isn't helping the production companies who do make the investment to produce football games in HD by broadcasting them in SD.

Someone needs to tell Julie that HD is not in a tentative state anymore and other stations in the country have figured out how to broadcast live regional games that are produced in HD. It sounds like KATU just doesn't want to pay extra to do this.

What a crock of crap. I think what she was trying to convey is that not everything is in HD (very true), but that's not what RichardMayo was trying to get at.


I bet the game tonight is in HD since it's more of a national broadcast than a regional one...but I'm not holding my breath.

I think either they just don't know how to broadcast an HD game that isn't coming from the ABC feed or it would have costed them extra in the contract to broadcast the games in HD. From what I've heard, these games are not coming through the ABC feed.

I like how in the first paragraph Julie implies that KATU is producing the games themselves! Talk about avoiding the real quesiton!

The best thing KATU could do is educate their employees about HD so they can give us responses that make sense.

Well, the Cal/Arizona game wasn't in HD.

Guess what, Texas/KSU isn't in HD on KATU either. What a bunch of smart guys!!!

KATU just said that the game isn't being fed to them in HD. Why aren't they suing ABC for false advertising then? Because they know that they're lying?


Hmmm, HDSportsGuide.com says it's in HD but I haven't seen any HD logos nor the ABC mics with the HD logo on it. Weird

The game was not "advertised" as HD.

In other bad college football news, that pixelized mess of an SEC game on KOIN today was due ot them dropping the bitrate to 13.1 Mbps. That's less than KGW gives us for Sunday Night Football.

Hmmm, HDSportsGuide.com says it's in HD but I haven't seen any HD logos nor the ABC mics with the HD logo on it. Weird
They're using ESPNHD mics.

Sorry this is somewhat OT. Has anyone in the Portland area purchased a SpyderTv Pro?
If so, would you like to give it a go on my px-61xr4a? ( It has the gray scale adjustments in the "user menu".)

The game was not "advertised" as HD.
.


Actually the ABC promos had the game in HD. I guess we can blame this one on ABC itself.

I didn't see this in the promos. I guess we can ask for our money back. :)

Anyone notice that the Bengals/Chargers game looked pretty good today, especially compared to the awful-looking SEC game yesterday? Well, that was simply the difference between 1080i in 13.1 Mpbs and 16.7 Mbps.

I hope KOIN doesn't forget to switch off the subchannel for football again.

Maybe KOIN figures it doesn't have to dedicate all its Mb to the SEC game when KATU has the horrid SD broadcast of its game going at the same time. Switch between those 2 and KOIN's SEC game looks terrific!

Not to mention that CBS's "surround-sound" is miles above ABC's for football and you've got a pretty damn good product.

Of course if you think ABC's SD product is bad, what is Fox Sports NW's SD product called...just plain crappy?

I call it pitiful.

Speaking of surround on football, rifleman, what did you experience with KGW's broadcast last night of the Bears/NYG game? I only got sound from my rears, sub and the center channel even tho' my receiver was lit up all around. Nothing from the front mains. Other programs worked fine. I wonder if KGW is having a relapse of its problems from the Olympics days?

I was only flicking back and forth to the game so didn't have the stereo on, can't help you with that one unfortunately.

CBS's sports surround-sound on just regular tv speakers is head and shoulders above everyone else.

Hi There:

New to the board today and live in Silverton.... approx 42 miles S.E. of downtown Porland.

My question: Am I able to receive any local HD Channels via OTA out here in Silverton and what type of Antenna might I need? Am I too far away?

I am currently using DirecTV as my provider. Any information would be of great assistance.

Thanks in advance!!

My question: Am I able to receive any local HD Channels via OTA out here in Silverton and what type of Antenna might I need? Am I too far away?
Punch your zip code into Antennaweb.org (http://www.antennaweb.org) and your questions will be answered.

Antennaweb.org tends to give conservative estimates.

Scowl:

Many thanks!

Any word on when or if KOIN and KATU will be added to the Directv MPEG 4 HD lineup
Thanx

Any word on when or if KOIN and KATU will be added to the Directv MPEG 4 HD lineup
Thanx
KGW and KPTV are being carried under national agreements with their respective owners Belo and Meredith. KOIN was not approached before those two stations were launched. Attempts to move carriage discussions forward were met with "we'll get back to you later" from DirecTV. Apparently it's not later enough yet.

Thanks Lee

Hell of a way for them to run a business, since it their Subs who suffer!
Michael

Hi There:

New to the board today and live in Silverton.... approx 42 miles S.E. of downtown Porland.

My question: Am I able to receive any local HD Channels via OTA out here in Silverton and what type of Antenna might I need? Am I too far away?

Thanks in advance!!
I receive almost all the digital stations from Portland ota from Stayton and suspect unless you are low in elevation with hills in the way so can you. My antenna is 15ft high off a two story home. I'm using DTV's hr 10-250 as my receiver and the biggest VHF/UHF combo antenna Winegard makes. Proper antenna pointing was critical. Heavy rain and dark clouds between Stayton and Portland do block the digital signal at times so I have to go low def DTV or revert to Analog reception ( ie, ch 2 not 2.1) at those times. I use a second lower antenna for OPB digital pointed to Corvallis for 7.1 and 7.2 as I can't recieve 10.1 or 10.2 from Portland. My strongest channel is 8.1 which I almost never lose. I'm also using a basemounted preamp iith a low s-n ratio for distribution as my cable runs to the receivers is over 50ft and split to two recievers. Without the preamp my reception was poor. You could however now get some HDTV from Portland with DTV's new 5lnb dish and new receiver (mpeg4), but I'm not sure how many stations are now on that system.
Rich

Hi There:

New to the board today and live in Silverton.... approx 42 miles S.E. of downtown Porland.

My question: Am I able to receive any local HD Channels via OTA out here in Silverton and what type of Antenna might I need? Am I too far away?

I am currently using DirecTV as my provider. Any information would be of great assistance.

Thanks in advance!!

I live in Dallas, about 50 miles from the transmitters. I bought a voom receiver off ebay just to see if I could get any DT OTA. I get 2, 6, 8, 10, 12, 22, 24, 32, 49. I have a medium sized antenna about 30 ft off the ground. The elevation here is about 320ft. I would think you would have no problem in Salem.

Hey all,
We just moved to the NW portland (thompson rd) area from SW. I cannot get any channels from any of my indoor OTAs. We are only 3.5 miles from the towers and at about 500 ft but in the direction of the towers the landscape heads upwards so our direct line of sight is blocked by earth and homes.

Any ideas?

Thanks

> I cannot get any channels from any of my indoor OTAs. We

Indoor antennas are low gain and have a poor pattern, so
they pick up a lot of multipath and interference.

Try a high gain "outdoor" antenna such as an 8-bay. You will
get a stronger signal, and a higher quality signal with less
multipath and interference.

> are only 3.5 miles from the towers and at about 500 ft but
> in the direction of the towers the landscape heads upwards
> so our direct line of sight is blocked by earth and homes.

Try the "outdoor" antenna in your attic or top floor. Aim
it at the top of or just above the obstruction. If you
still don't get acceptable reception, try it outdoors,
as high as possible.

Hey all,
We just moved to the NW portland (thompson rd) area from SW. I cannot get any channels from any of my indoor OTAs. We are only 3.5 miles from the towers and at about 500 ft but in the direction of the towers the landscape heads upwards so our direct line of sight is blocked by earth and homes.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Do yourself a favor and buy a Zenith silver sensor antenna. You'll have to find it on the internet. SHould cost under $30 and is not very big. I guarantee that you will get great reception. It out performs a large attic antenna I have.

I have had a Silver Sensor for 2 years now( in the attic) and have been happy with it except for the occasional dropout of KOIN (CBS). For the last week I have been losing NBC and now FOX. I have never lost these 2 stations before. I did not change anything to start losing them. Today I moved the antenna and checked and the stations returned, however an hour later they were gone again. I have Dish with a 921 DVR. Any ideas?

They offer 2 6 8 and 12 in HD along with TNT, Discover, ESPN, ESPN2, HDNET, HDNET Movies, Universal HD, HBO and Showtime HD and the Voom family of channels (which totals 11)

They've announced Food Network and HGTV in HD for late 2nd quarter and also announced Starz HD but no launch date yet.

That's pretty good, eh? I have directv now, and about to take the plunge on the HD path. It looks to me Directv only offers NBC and Fox HD. All other locals are SD. Is this correct?

Basically, I'm confused. So much to figure out. The wife does not want an Antennae on the house (too ugly...) That's why I want it over satellite\cable. I've considered an antennae in the attic, but that's hit or miss, right? If it's not, I have the installation headache...not exactly a handyman unfortunately. Then there is the question or what DVR to go with....Just don't know. I will keep reading these forums, but damn, tough to figure out which way to go.

Any sage advice or pointers to FAQ's would be appreciated.

My antenna works better in my attic since that puts it farther away from the street and the multipath caused by passing vehicles. The signals weren't any stronger outside. UHF can punch through a roof pretty easily unless you're dealing with weak signals.

Do yourself a favor and buy a Zenith silver sensor antenna. You'll have to find it on the internet. SHould cost under $30 and is not very big. I guarantee that you will get great reception. It out performs a large attic antenna I have.

Frys had some a couple of months ago when I bought mine. I agree that the Zenith is FAR better than any other antenna that I have tried and I have tried at least a half dozen.

> I've considered an antennae in the attic, but that's hit or miss, right?

An insect in your attic is probably bad. :-)

A TV antenna in your attic can work quite well. Signals can get through
wood and asphalt shingles fairly well. If your antenna has to "look"
through thick, dense material like stone/brick/concrete/tile/slate,
it will reduce the signal strength. But it is still worth trying, given
the advantages of protecting the antenna and coax from wind, rain, ice,
snow, critters, corrosion, etc. And you don't have to ground it, or
waterproof the connections.

I have a Winegard PR-8800 "looking" through a wood gable wall, and I
have it going through >16 dB of splitters and I still added an attenuator
to lower the signal strength and prevent overloading the tuner input.
I got the high-gain antenna not for the signal strength, but for the
tight pattern which reduces multipath and interference.

That's pretty good, eh? I have directv now, and about to take the plunge on the HD path. It looks to me Directv only offers NBC and Fox HD. All other locals are SD. Is this correct?

Basically, I'm confused. So much to figure out. The wife does not want an Antennae on the house (too ugly...) That's why I want it over satellite\cable. I've considered an antennae in the attic, but that's hit or miss, right? If it's not, I have the installation headache...not exactly a handyman unfortunately. Then there is the question or what DVR to go with....Just don't know. I will keep reading these forums, but damn, tough to figure out which way to go.

Any sage advice or pointers to FAQ's would be appreciated.

If you're thinking of either DBS service start reading www.satguys.us and www.dbstalk.com.
They are two of the most active websites for DBS information. You'll find a good bit of info there.

Yes DTV only has KGW and KPTV currently. The others are involved in retransmission discussions last I knew.

Antennas in the attic can work fine depending in very large part on where you are and what's between you and the towers. There's no magic fomula to know if you're going to get reception or not. Good luck in your search.

Hello ALL:
A question about Sunday Night Football on OTA KGW HD. I watch on Comcast ch 708 and notice that you can not hear the Ref. or the players introduce themselves. The audio is about 30+DB down. It is there but can not be understood. I do notice that SD channel 8 is OK.

I am wonderintg if this also happens OTA or can this just be a ComCast issue?

TIA

Do Comcast receivers allow for antenna connections or do you need a separate receiver to get OTA? Just thinking after the last post by mpsan there.

Way things have been it was probably a KGW HD issue.

I am wonderintg if this also happens OTA or can this just be a ComCast issue?
This is how they've chosen to mix SNF in 5.1. The only sounds you'll hear in the center speaker are the announcers. I can understand why they don't put the ref in the center channel but I don't know why they don't put the player introductions in the center. This is just a rule they've been following.

Do Comcast receivers allow for antenna connections or do you need a separate receiver to get OTA?
Comcast STBs do not receive OTA.

I do have ATSC tuners in my HDTV's but I can not get OTA here as I am in the hills, but wrong spot!

I live in Albany (North Albany between the golf course and country club) and have satellite, and am going to put up a CM 4228 this weekend so I can hopefully tune in either Portland or Eugene OTA. Since I get NBC and FOX in HD with my satellite, I really want to get CBS and ABC.

Is anyone down here getting Portland stations? If so, what is your setup? I've been told to either get a preamp or an amp. All I care about is getting CBS and ABC.

I live in Albany (North Albany between the golf course and country club) and have satellite, and am going to put up a CM 4228 this weekend so I can hopefully tune in either Portland or Eugene OTA. Since I get NBC and FOX in HD with my satellite, I really want to get CBS and ABC.

Is anyone down here getting Portland stations? If so, what is your setup? I've been told to either get a preamp or an amp. All I care about is getting CBS and ABC.

I am getting Portland stations with a Radio Shack U-120 mounted outside on top of my roof (about 25 feet high) and a Winegard pre-amp. Just bought the new Samsung 260 OTA receiver. I am on Gibson Hill Road near Skyline, so Portland reception is better for me because of the hill to the south. Just aim the antenna for the best reception of UHF 24 analog (religious programming, in Portland) and then scan for digital stations.

I was getting ABC-2, NBC-8, OPB-10, KPTV-12, and Fox-49 until last night when KOAC in Corvallis went down (7 analog, 39 digital). I checked on CBS (ch 40 digital) and received it just fine, so I think 39 in Corvallis has been overpowering ch 40. But I also lost ch 2 last night, so I don't know if the transmitter was down, or if my antenna shifted a little.

In my experience here, an amp doesn't really help, but the preamp did help. Your antenna is better than mine, so you might be fine without a preamp. I think I'm going to get a filter for channel 39 so I can get 40 (CBS) all the time. Be sure to post your results.

I live in Albany (North Albany between the golf course and country club) and have satellite, and am going to put up a CM 4228 this weekend so I can hopefully tune in either Portland or Eugene OTA. Since I get NBC and FOX in HD with my satellite, I really want to get CBS and ABC.

Is anyone down here getting Portland stations? If so, what is your setup? I've been told to either get a preamp or an amp. All I care about is getting CBS and ABC.

I live on the west side of Corvallis, and can get some of the Portland stations. I also have the CM 4228 and it has worked reasonably well, but I found that in my case I needed to amplify the signals to get the Portland stations. This is a bit touchy if you are close to any local transmitters and I found that I needed to filter some local signals to prevent overload in the amp.

I recently switched to the XG-91 and found that it provides better results and fewer dropouts in my area. I have been using a Humax reciever and it has a bit of a problem with multipath. I believe that the narrower beam width of the XG-91 makes it a better choice for me, and I have had fewer dropouts now even though I only have this new antenna in the attic right now. I will wait for better weather to mount it on the roof. If you have a more recent reciever that deals better with multipath, this may not be as important to you.

I have no obstruction in the general direction on the Portland stations, so your situation may be different. ABC NBC and FOX has been reliable for me most of the time, but I have never been able to get CBS (KOIN) in anything but analog. This is probably because the digital PBS local transmitter is currently on channel 39 and has a strong signal that I need to attenuate. CBS digital is on 40 and has a much weaker signal that is so close in frequency to 39 that it gets enough attenuation that it does not decode.

Perhaps a better reciever might help, but I think you will have difficulty getting KOIN. After the transition the local PBS will move back to Ch 7 so that situation will eventually change, but for now it will probably be analog or nothing.

How degrees will KOIN be from PBS for you at your location? For me they are approximately in the same direction, but from Albany you may be in better shape. Also, do you have a clear shot to the North toward Portland? At that distance it will be critical having an un obstructed path toward the transmitters. You may be better off trying to get the Eugene stations if you have any obstruction to the North.

Tom

Well last night sucked -- both my dish and my antenna were blown out of whack by the storms -- The dish has survived ten years of storms in th past. On top of that lost power and still don't have it back -- I guess I am definitely going to be up on the roof tomorrow.

A little off topic here. Infocus is having an outlet sale this weekend if anyone was looking to get some new equipment.

www.infocusoutlet.com

Some info for anyone who uses the D* HR20 DVR. Due to a visit from 'Santa' over at DBStalk.com, I am happy to say I now have OTA enabled. It works like a charm, outstanding quality pic, just like 'straight OTA via antenna only, without going through a DVR'. Well worth the wait. I get all the PBS channels again :-). Only thing I wish they would have allowed is recording three shows at once, while watching another. It's still recording 2 shows, and watch another recorded show at the some time. :-( Oh Well, beggers can't be choosers. Anyway, the 108 software update is well worth the wait. It should be out in public in about a week.

Channel 2 was down last night on both my wbcable and OTA. Missed Grays Anatonomy. Our electricity went down briefly a couple of times, but was on most of the time so we were lucky.

Jay at Aurora

KATU DT was down last night and this morning, but it is up again when I check it at noon today.

Grey's Anatomy was a repeat last night, so you wouldn't miss much.

Some info for anyone who uses the D* HR20 DVR. Due to a visit from 'Santa' over at DBStalk.com, I am happy to say I now have OTA enabled. It works like a charm, outstanding quality pic, just like 'straight OTA via antenna only, without going through a DVR'. Well worth the wait. I get all the PBS channels again :-). Only thing I wish they would have allowed is recording three shows at once, while watching another. It's still recording 2 shows, and watch another recorded show at the some time. :-( Oh Well, beggers can't be choosers. Anyway, the 108 software update is well worth the wait. It should be out in public in about a week.


I wish the unit would have dual buffers like the HR10-250, the OTA being enabled gives it another + for me for future use but it's still not practical for me right now. YMMV

I live in Albany (North Albany between the golf course and country club) and have satellite, and am going to put up a CM 4228 this weekend so I can hopefully tune in either Portland or Eugene OTA. Since I get NBC and FOX in HD with my satellite, I really want to get CBS and ABC.

Is anyone down here getting Portland stations? If so, what is your setup? I've been told to either get a preamp or an amp. All I care about is getting CBS and ABC.


I stated earlier that CBS from Portland would be difficult because it is so close in frequency to the local PBS station. With the storm taking CH 39 off the air yesturday I had a chance to test that theory. CBS came in clear and strong with the other Portland ststions about normal.

I suspect that if Portland is not in line with the Corvallis towers from where you are, you may in fact be able to pick that one up as well. However, if that is your plan, a slightly more directional antenna like a corner reflector Yagi might be a better bet than the 4228.

In any case, good luck.

I wish the unit would have dual buffers like the HR10-250, the OTA being enabled gives it another + for me for future use but it's still not practical for me right now. YMMV

Rifleman69, from what I understand, they are working on dual buffers. :)

I setup my CM 4228 yesterday pointed south. Took a portable TV up on the roof with me and tried tuning a weak UHF signal from down there to help orienting the antenna. After one pass, it decided to stop working all together, so I drug a 13" color up there and was pulling all kinds of signals, VHF and UHF from Portland and Eugene, although I suspect the Portland stuff might have been from repeaters.

I tuned my TV inside with KEZI-DT, and oriented the antenna for the strongest signal to that station, and tightened everything up and ran the antenna feed through my D* H20 and checked signal strength.

I'm getting KVAL-DT at 98%, KMTR-DT (16-1, 16-2) at 98%, KEPB-DT (28-1, 28-2) at 98%, and KEZI-DT (9-1, 9-2) at 82-85%. I could not pull 34-1, and now Antennaweb.org doesn't even show a FOX affiliate in Eugene, wonder if the storm took them down. I'm not picking up KOAC anymore, but I still get it with the indoor antenna into ANT2 input on my TV.

I've got KGW and FOX from Portland over D*. I didn't even try to tune the Portland stations, although I probably should have just to see what I could get. Maybe I'll try it someday and if it works, I'll have to install a rotor.

I'm really surprised that I got such high signal strength. A friend of mine has the same antenna here in town, although he is using an amp, and cannot get KEZI at all.

I'm going to have to remount the antenna and my Ka/Ku dish here in the near future, as Thursday's storm has revealed how bad a shape my roof is in, and it needs to be replaced.

I'm in Salem OR and I have basic Comcast analog cable (no cable box) and I don't yet have an HD set.

I'm thinking of upgrading to HD, and I'm trying to figure out what my cheapest option is to get HD through Comcast.

If I look at the Comcast web site, it appears that I can add HD to any plan for a couple of extra bucks, but it may mean I end up with a big ugly cable box and/or this may require me to upgrade to digital cable (for more $$$).

Another Comcast rep told me (but it wasn't really clear) that if I had a CableCard-compatible set, that I could keep my basic cable and get HD for 'free' (but I'm assuming I am paying Comcast for the cable card).

So, what are my options, really? I don't want to pay upwards of $50/month to Comcast - I don't care about OnDemand and program guides and all that stuff, just want some nice picture quality.

Thanks,

Alex B.

P.S. I have a friend in Michigan who has Comcast basic analog cable, he got an HD set with an ATSC tuner, connected it to the cable, and is getting HD channels - is this due to a mistake on Comcast's part or is this to be expected?

I'm not picking up KOAC anymore, but I still get it with the indoor antenna into ANT2 input on my TV.

.

The digital portion of the KOAC signal was down after the storm. The analog signal came back up first and that was probably what you were getting with the other TV and an indoor antenna. The digital signal is transmitted with entirely seperate equipment, so it can go off the air without affecting the analog or vice versa.

They are now both back on the air again so try again and you will probably get it. However, depending on your distance to the tower, having it back could actually create some problems with your other reception of more distant stations.

Tom

Another Comcast rep told me (but it wasn't really clear) that if I had a CableCard-compatible set, that I could keep my basic cable and get HD for 'free' (but I'm assuming I am paying Comcast for the cable card).


You don't need a CableCard for local HD channels. You just need a set that tune QAM (not ATSC) in-the-clear channels. Any set with a CableCard slot (empty) should do the trick.

I need a recommendation for the type of antenna to purchase.

I'm close in to all the big transmission towers, but a couple of stations are behind a ridge from me. KGW, KOPB, KPDX, and KPTV are all within line of sight and only 0.8 miles east and south of me, through large trees.. However, KWBP, KATU, and KOIN are all out-of-sight below a ridge line. They are 1.6 miles east and south of me, but a ridge 0.3 miles from me blocks them by probably about 50 feet of elevation. All of the towers are pretty much lined up for me - only about 8 degrees spread between them.

We just got an HDTV and would prefer over-the-air reception. However, an indoor antenna did not get good reception for some of the stations, even if I took the TV and antenna outside.

Even though I'm close in, I'm in a little rural pocket with lots of big trees and no other houses within sight. I can do a pretty tall antenna, or move the antenna to different parts of the property to get more in the open. For anyone who knows the area, I'm on Miller Road just south of Cornell in Portland.

What would you recommend for an antenna and mounting in a situation like this?

I'm wondering if you tried moving your antenna around in all directions ? It maybe possible to get a good signal off a bounce or reflection. I'm also close in apox 2 miles or so from the towers. 12.1 is by luck of the draw behind my neighbors large 100 year old 3 story house! To make matters worse they have a beautiful maybe 6 story tree behind the house . All the other stations are on one side of the house or the other so I get a great picture. This is in a South East direction directly across the street from me so no way around it. Well it's taken lots of antenna moving but I get a great picture on 12.1 from a NorthWest direction which has to be a bounce off another 3 story house across the street ! This is my fall/winter antenna direction for 12.1 once the leaves come off. Spring/ summer I get 12.1 from an almost direct south position, not sure what it's bouncing off of. There's a couple of weeks in the fall & spring when I have to watch 12 and can't get 12.1 but once the leaves are off or on I'm back in business;-) So it maybe possible with a bit of work. I also got a longer cable so as to move my in side antenna to the side of the house the towers are closest to which made a big difference. I'm using a Radio shack Twin Bowtie inside UHF anttena. Several people swear it's as good as a silver senser and at $15.95 not a big gamble to try. It also works with VHF just fine .

Thanks, Schwinn. I think my problem is that there is nothing nearby that can generate a bounce. I'm down in a hollow surrounded by trees, with no buildings in sight anywhere besides my own house. I can't even see houses downhill to the south and west of me because of the trees (about 500 feet of heavy forest). I tried quite a few locations (upstairs, downstairs, out on the upstairs deck, and even out in the field) and although I sometimes got most of the stations, there was no place where I could reliably get the digital 2 and 6. Most of the time I would get "no signal". I was thinking that if I put an outdoor antenna out in my field and got it up high enough, I might have a direct line of sight (through a few distant trees) of the tip of the KATU/KOIN transmitter. From my field (about 100 feet away) I could certainly get a clear line of sight down the valley to buildings that are in direct line of sight of all the transmission towers for a bounce, but would a bounce work off a variety of structures about a mile or so away? I did not want to invest in lots of cable and tall poles/guy wires if doing so would still give poor or no reception of 2, 6, and 32.

pspende: Does Comcast service your area? You sound like a prime cable candidate if you really want HD. :-D Sat providers might not work for you either, due to trees potentially blocking line of sight to the satellites. Good luck!

I'm in Salem OR and I have basic Comcast analog cable (no cable box) and I don't yet have an HD set.

I'm thinking of upgrading to HD, and I'm trying to figure out what my cheapest option is to get HD through Comcast.

Go and read this companion thread about Comcast in Portland:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=339961&page=1&pp=30

Many people are getting HD with $10/mo basic cable. That's what I pay.

I've got DirecTV with two receivers feeding to same TV. Yesterday I got the OTA update for the HR20. After connecting the the HR20 to my OTA antenna all of my OTA channels come in perfectly except the FOX HD.

At the same time my HR10 will no longer show the FOX HD channel OTA. I checked the signal strength on the HR10 and the signal is in the high 80s to low 90s on channel 30 (FOX HD channel 12-1 in the guide.). Both receivers show a "Searching for signal" message when I try tuning to that channel. All other OTA channels work fine even CBS HD with a signal down in the mid 70s. FOX HD was working fine OTA on the HR10 until yesterday when the 0x10b updaate loaded into the HR20.

The channel is a rock solid perfect picture using the ATSC tuner in the TV itself.

HR10 - HDMI - 6.3a-01-2-357
HR20 - Component - 0x10b
TV - Olevia 37" LCD HD
Antenna - Zenith Silver Sensor

Success on the HR10. I cleared and rescanned the OTA channels.It seems there's a KPTVDT 12-1 (which was what I already had in the channel list) and also a KPTV-DT 12-1 (New to the channel list). That little dash in the call letters is what made all the difference. :rolleyes:

I've got DirecTV with two receivers feeding to same TV. Yesterday I got the OTA update for the HR20. After connecting the the HR20 to my OTA antenna all of my OTA channels come in perfectly except the FOX HD.

At the same time my HR10 will no longer show the FOX HD channel OTA.

wow, i was checking to see if anyone else had a recent issue with fox OTA. i attributed it to the recent wind storm. that night both fox and upn went out. upn is back, but fox has been iffy. btw, have 6.3b on my hd dtivo. and i zippered/sliced it after all this happened.

Success on the HR10. I cleared and rescanned the OTA channels.It seems there's a KPTVDT 12-1 (which was what I already had in the channel list) and also a KPTV-DT 12-1 (New to the channel list). That little dash in the call letters is what made all the difference.

frederic,

I was having the same problem and tried almost the same thing you did. I rescanned the OTA channels. However, I ended up with two 12-1 channels. The first one (which points to frequency 12) has all the guide information and doesn't tune. The second one (which points to frequency 30) just has "Regular Schedule" but tunes into the correct show.

So I tried to clear the OTA, but it only cleared the newly scanned stations. Rescanning brought back the second 12-1. Any ideas on how to fix this?

I was going to wait on the nightly guide update to see if the one with the dash in the call letters gets the guide listings

frederic,

I was having the same problem and tried almost the same thing you did. I rescanned the OTA channels. However, I ended up with two 12-1 channels. The first one (which points to frequency 12) has all the guide information and doesn't tune. The second one (which points to frequency 30) just has "Regular Schedule" but tunes into the correct show.

So I tried to clear the OTA, but it only cleared the newly scanned stations. Rescanning brought back the second 12-1. Any ideas on how to fix this?

I also have the same problem. I've called DirectTV as well as KPTV. KPTV did not know about the problem and said they would look in to it but with the holidays I doubt anything will be done for awhile. If more people called them about the problem maybe they will take a look at it sooner. Give them a call and report the problem. (503) 906-1249

I had the same thing happen on my HR10-250 (It will happen to everyone). Here is what I have determined after following what taterheart did. Before rescanning however, you need to clear your OTA channels. This doesn't actually remove them from the guide. Then do a rescan. It will find 12-1 KPTV-DT. After adding that one, go into Channels You Receive and remove 12-1 KPTVDT. When you are there, notice the description for 12-1 now..it now says Fox 12 HD (it used to say KPTVDT). Fox 12 changed this and didn't bother to tell anyone (at least that I could find). The person who called the station didn't indicate that they were told about this (not that I expect everyone at the station to know something so technical). It is a shame that they did this which now requires a manual workaround in every HR10-250 in their viewing area. Pass the word.

L

I did another clear & rescan but the KPTV-DT 12-1 on my HR10 still has 12-1 KPTV-DT not FOX 12 HD.

The guide didn't update last night. It still says "Regular Schedule" in the on-screen guide. Which means I can't set any show to record.

I called KPTV and left a voice message. The initial operator said they'd had quite a few calls about the problem.

I still can't get the new 12-1 channel to show up on the HR20. Clear & rescan doen't seem to work with it.

Has anyone heard about the status of KATU and KOIN in terms of being added to the MPEG 4 DTV HD tier?
Last I heard KOIN said they weren't even talking to DTV
If you sign up people for HD LIL, at least have the decency to supply the major network players

It only shows Fox 12 HD when you go into "channels I recieve"..it doesn't show it that way in the guide. Going on 4+ hours for me and no guide data either. I have a bad feeling that they have changed the description, which is why we had to rescan, but haven't setup the new guide data for that channel yet. Lets hope it doesn't take them too long to figure this out. At least we can watch the channel :)

I did another clear & rescan but the KPTV-DT 12-1 on my HR10 still has 12-1 KPTV-DT not FOX 12 HD.

The guide didn't update last night. It still says "Regular Schedule" in the on-screen guide. Which means I can't set any show to record.

I called KPTV and left a voice message. The initial operator said they'd had quite a few calls about the problem.

I still can't get the new 12-1 channel to show up on the HR20. Clear & rescan doen't seem to work with it.

I got the new one to show up on my HR10, but still no guide data. At least there isn't much new stuff on right now, 'cause of the holidays... hopefully they fix this soon.

My "temp fix" is to leave both of them in my Channels that I receive. That way you can use the guide data from KPTVDT to see what is on KPTV-DT. At least you could set manual recordings if you needed to. Football is really the only thing new these days..like you said, good time of year for this to happen.

Now it's channel 49 KPDX-HD that's no longer working since last night, I called the station and was told they're aware of the problem and are working on it.

The signal strength for UHF 48 (49-1) is in the high 70s on both the DirecTV receivers and the ATSC tuner in the TV but I get a black screen on both DirecTV OTA and OTA on the TV.

Yep, same exact thing..they changed the id to KPDX-DT from KPDXDT. Are both stations owned by the same group? Is this some sort of FCC thing? If it is, can we expect all the stations to do this?

L

Now it's channel 49 KPDX-HD that's no longer working since last night, I called the station and was told they're aware of the problem and are working on it.

The signal strength for UHF 48 (49-1) is in the high 70s on both the DirecTV receivers and the ATSC tuner in the TV but I get a black screen on both DirecTV OTA and OTA on the TV.

Yep, same exact thing..they changed the id to KPDX-DT from KPDXDT. Are both stations owned by the same group? Is this some sort of FCC thing? If it is, can we expect all the stations to do this?

L
Yes both stations are owned by the same company . I believe they currently share the same building. They are on seperate towers from each other and from the other stations. I've always as posted here had problems with getting 12-1 . I'm not currently getting either station in digital . No idea about the FCC question.

I have the same results on the TV OTA for 49 / 14, my Sony TV shows 90 plus but all black.
The 10-250 OTA is so poor I have not used it for months the new sony tuner on the 46" LCD works great for OTA. If the Tivo series 3 tuner works this good I would consider dumping D* and using the OTA only as D* has promised local stations and "more HD" for a year with no delivery.
nater

Any suggestions for CH 12 and 49 on the Directv H20 receiver (not HR20 recorder). I've tried rescanning the OTA channels but CH 12 and 49 are still no-shows. Previously everything was fine, I don't know why they had to mess around with things like this.

Thanks!
Al Rovner

Have you performed a hard reset
This will force the unit to reaquire the Sat info and it may help
I had a situation where all but local channels were fine, reaquiring Sat info was the cure
Good luck
DTV, where is HD 2 and 6

I guess as Lee said earlier, "Apparently it's not later enough yet." Hopefully DTV will decide to get those channels before to long.

Seems this is happening all over the US. Found this post on the DBS forum from a guy in Louisiana. Same thing happening in New Jersey.

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=764507&posted=1#post764507

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bribo
Something strange has happened in the last couple of days, as now my HR 10 is acting the same as my HR 20. I cannot get WVUE 8-1 or the others listed in my earlier post. If i look at my off air signal meter on the HR10, i have mid-90's for strength, but the HR10 won't tune. Plugged straight into my two TV's tuners, I receive all channels just fine. End Quote


Clearing and re-scanning all channels brought the missing channels back. Strange.

I appears that the call signs have changed. I now have two channel 8-1's. One shows as WVUEDT, and one as FOX8HD. The old WVUE doesn't tune, and FOX8HD does. Same for all other missing channels.

I live in Raleigh Hills west of Scholls Ferry about half way between Sylvan and the big intersection down at the bottom of Schools Ferry/Beav. Hillsdale Hwy.

Just curious if anyone else lives in this neighbor - I'm not able to receive OTA on Channels 2 and 6 very well - and the signal is not strong enough to drive my new D* HR20 STB (this one is configured to accept OTA in Mpeg4 format). I have an expensive indoor antenna with powered amplification. Hard to put an antenna on my roof and get it into the house so I'm stuck for awhile using an indoor antenna.

I think maybe, while very close to the TV towers at Sylvan, maybe there are too many trees and we're down in somewhat of a gully - SW Raleighview Drive - so it might not make any difference if I start spending some big bucks on a fancy indoor antenna.

Anyone with similar experiences?

Thanks.

Jack

KPDX HD is working again. I recorded the new dash 12 using the manual recording to record by time and it worked allright.

Yes, it has been "working" like this for 3 days now...still no good without guide data though. But at least I can watch the Saints game tomorro w:)

L

FWIW, I have both a HR10-250 and an S3 HD TiVo.

As others have reported, my HR10 lost 12-1 but the S3 continues to work fine.

Larry,

Tell us about your S3 situation...did nothing change for 12-1 on that box or did you do a rescan? Also, what is the station ID for 12-1 on your S3? Are you getting guide data on the S3?

Thanks,

L

Over on tivocommunity.com, there are reports from all over the country...and only with DirecTV models that do OTA. There seems to be consensus that this is a Directv problem, not an issue with the local stations. This would explain why S3 OTA doesn't have this issue...time for us to start calling Directv and complaining.

L

> I'm not able to receive OTA on Channels 2 and 6 very well

Analog 2 & 6 or digital, which are really 43 and 40?

I get interference from FM on analog 6.

> I have an expensive indoor antenna with powered amplification.

Expensive doesn't insure performance. :-(

You are about 2-3 miles from the transmitters?

Your amp is probably overloading. It is probably doing
more harm than good.

> Hard to put an antenna on my roof and get it into the house so
> I'm stuck for awhile using an indoor antenna.

Do you have an attic?

Indoor antennas have poor directional patterns. An amp cannot
fix that, even if it doesn't overload. Digital reception is
different from analog reception, and for many of us, more difficult.

A good antenna costs less than $40. See the discussion of
antenna makes&models in this thread back in July 2006.

> I'm not able to receive OTA on Channels 2 and 6 very well

Analog 2 & 6 or digital, which are really 43 and 40?
Digiatal 2 and 6 - not sure what you mean by "which are really 43 and 40"?

I get interference from FM on analog 6.

> I have an expensive indoor antenna with powered amplification.

Expensive doesn't insure performance. :-(

You are about 2-3 miles from the transmitters?

Your amp is probably overloading. It is probably doing
more harm than good.

I turned off the powered amp and it's actually worse reception

> Hard to put an antenna on my roof and get it into the house so
> I'm stuck for awhile using an indoor antenna.

Do you have an attic?
yes but it's difficult getting a cable up there - just the way my house is set up.

Indoor antennas have poor directional patterns. An amp cannot
fix that, even if it doesn't overload. Digital reception is
different from analog reception, and for many of us, more difficult.

A good antenna costs less than $40. See the discussion of
antenna makes&models in this thread back in July 2006.

guess I'm stuck - the HD-digital comes in great OTA - but again, I guess the signal isn't strong enough to drive my D*TV receiver??!!

active satellites? Is there a list somewhere of the active satellites and their channels we're suppose be receiving? - I'd like to check and make sure I'm getting them.

Thanks

Larry,

Tell us about your S3 situation...did nothing change for 12-1 on that box or did you do a rescan? Also, what is the station ID for 12-1 on your S3? Are you getting guide data on the S3?


Nothing changed.

As was just mentioned, this is a DirecTV problem where they are mapping the channel to the wrong frequency.

Larry,

Do you see any improvement on station reception between the S3 Tivo and the HR10-250?

I have the HR10-250 and a Sony LCD. The OTA on the HR10-250 is very poor compared to the OTA tuner in the Sony. If the S3 tuner is as good as the Sony tuner I would go for but the Tivo I have is not a great tuner.

nater

For me, both are perfect.

As has been mentioned many times, the HR10-250 is very sensitive to overload. I had to add about 20 dB of attenuation to get any reception at all but after that, no problem.

Many people on the tivo board seem to think the S3 has a very good tuner (and I don't need any attenuation.)

>> Analog 2 & 6 or digital, which are really 43 and 40?
> Digiatal 2 and 6 - not sure what you mean by "which are really 43 and 40"?

The analog version of channels 2 & 6 are broadcast on channels 2 & 6 (VHF).
The digital version of channels 2 & 6 are broadcast on channels 43 and 40 (UHF).

The antenna doesn't care about the "marketing" channel number. The antenna
(and the tuner) cares about the actual broadcast channel.

> I turned off the powered amp and it's actually worse reception

If you just turned the power off but left the amp in the circuit, then
reception getting even worse is not surprising. You need to take the
amp completely out of the circuit.

>> Do you have an attic?
> yes but it's difficult getting a cable up there - just the way my house is set up.

You can drill a small hole in the ceiling of a closet.
You can hire a professional.

You can get a long coax and just run it through the hatch, to see what kind of
reception you can get from the attic, before drilling holes and fishing coax
through the walls to make it look nice.

> guess I'm stuck - the HD-digital comes in great OTA - but again, I guess the signal
> isn't strong enough to drive my D*TV receiver??!!

If you are only 2-3 miles from the transmitters, you should have more than enough
signal strength, unless your house is a Faraday cage or something. The *quality*
of the signal is another matter. Multipath, especially dynamic multipath from
cars, trucks, planes, etc. or interference, or distortion from an amp overloading
will hurt reception. A good "outdoor" antenna will give you a higher quality
signal, as well as more signal strength. You can use an "outdoor" antenna
indoors, if you can live with the size and the appearence.

> this one is configured to accept OTA in Mpeg4 format

OTA is mpeg2ts not mpeg4. Maybe this is your problem?

Just FYI for the assembled multitude. We are working this issue internally with DirecTV Broadcast Interconnect. Local broadcast PSIP appears to be proper (in fact, KPDX-DT PSIP comes from the same computer that KPTV-DT PSIP does) both before transmission and on receive and this does, indeed, appear to be a DirecTV issue.

We're working it.

Ed

Multipath, especially dynamic multipath from
cars, trucks, planes, etc. or interference, or distortion from an amp overloading
will hurt reception. A good "outdoor" antenna will give you a higher quality
signal, as well as more signal strength.
Dynamic multipath can be worse outdoors. I had multipath bouncing off cars when I had my antenna outdoors. I brought it into the attic so the house is blocking the reflections from the street and that solved it. At close distances (I'm just a few miles from the towers) signal strength is not an issue at all.

I got off the phone with DirecTV Broadcast Interconnect a little while ago.

The problem is DirecTV's ... but it's not REALLY DirecTV's.

We were told by Direct that they pass program guide data over the satellite AS RECEIVED from Tribune Media Service. TMS provides prgram guide data to a very large number of providers including cable companies, broadcasters and the satellite companies.

In the case of DirecTV, TMS must provide a "tune to" channel as part of the program guide files they send. DirecTV simply passes those files to the consumer's DVR's untouched and unedited. So, while the data is being transmitted by DirecTV, the data itself actually comes from TMS.

DirecTV is blaming TMS for this problem for two reasons:

1. TMS has exhibited this problem before (ie, failing to include the "tune to" channel in their files)
2. DirecTV contacted TMS last week and asked TMS to go in and do some year end file and data cleanup ... and all of a sudden we started seeing these issues.

We'll be on the phone with TMS tomorrow morning.

Ed

Finally..thank you! Admiting you have a problem is the first step to recovery
! I still can't believe this has been going on as long as it has. Keep us posted Ed.

..... I have the HR10-250 and a Sony LCD. The OTA on the HR10-250 is very poor compared to the OTA tuner in the Sony. If the S3 tuner is as good as the Sony tuner I would go for but the Tivo I have is not a great tuner.

naterI recently bought a Sony LCD as well and I'll have to agree with you regarding it's ATSC tuner. The trees around my house (and in direct line between the towers) normally cause problems when the wind whips up. A couple weeks back when a little front blew through and the trees began to sway, I did some testing comparing the built in tuner with the one in my Sony D* receiver (HD300) and it was like night and day. While the D* receiver tuner had a constant stream of audio/video drops (and full loss of signal a number of times), the built in tuner in the LCD was rock solid! I was pretty impressed. Then the night of the big wind storm I was watching the built in tuner and it again was great, only showing a few minor drops in the couple hours I watched (up until the power went off at 10:00PM for three days anyway....).


ron

We'll be on the phone with TMS tomorrow morning.

EdThanks a lot Ed!


ron