I forwarded a long list of affected TV stations to Tribune Media this morning and it has resulted in some information shaking loose from DirecTV via Tribune-DirecTV discussions today. DirecTV Engineering is now asking questions about whether this problem may be related to a "satellite move" that was made on the 19th of December. ...right when all the problems started.

I have no details beyond that other than the problem is acknowledged as a real one and that is has been escalated through at least a couple of engineering groups at DirecTV.

10.3 7.3 28.3 have launched a new channel called the oregon channel more info is at
http://www.oregonchannel.org

Just FYI for the assembled multitude. We are working this issue internally with DirecTV Broadcast Interconnect. Local broadcast PSIP appears to be proper (in fact, KPDX-DT PSIP comes from the same computer that KPTV-DT PSIP does) both before transmission and on receive and this does, indeed, appear to be a DirecTV issue.

We're working it.

Ed
Edward

Was the change from KPTVDT to KPTV-DT something done here or was it something done at DirectTV?

Any idea how to get the new channel with the dash to show on the HR-20?

Edward

Any idea how to get the new channel with the dash to show on the HR-20?

Just enable 10.3 in the channel guide. Then just dial in channel ten (assuming you are in Portland), and surf the last couple channels. Or just go throught the channel guide. :rolleyes: I am afraid that eventhough the D* remote for the HR-20 is ok, they forgot a period button, and a captions button. Enabling captions is a pain in the caboose. To many steps to it.

Edward

Was the change from KPTVDT to KPTV-DT something done here or was it something done at DirectTV?

Any idea how to get the new channel with the dash to show on the HR-20?
KPTV-DT is the PSIP Short Channel Name that we've been transmitting for a few years now. Any receiver or TV set that actually reads the PSIP we're trasnmitting will show the channel that way. The PSIP Short Channel Name is a station optional field and has nothing to do with how a receiver tunes a channel. For instance, KGW's PSIP Short Channel Name is "KGW-HD".

The DirecTV receivers in question appear to be able to pay attention to the basic PSIP being transmitted by the local stations (major/minor channel number, TSID, etc.), but they appear to ignore the guide data we transmit, using instead the guide and tuning data sent over the satellite.

Unfortunately, since the affected recievers must be told by the satellite data to tune to a specific RF channel for each OTA HD station, there's no way to get the receievers to pay attention to the OTA PSIP to build a guide. One of the first things we did last week was to do an experiement where we changed our short channel name to "KPTVDT" (ie, we removed the dash) and it didn't change a thing - all that happened is that the affected receviers simply showed two "KPTVDT" 12.1 channels - one with a guide a no video and one with video but no guide...

I'm not personally familiar with the channel scan function on the HR20. I personally own an HR10-250 and the OTA channel scan function is located in the "Channels" section of setup. I've been doing lots of scans lately :)

Ed

>> 10.3 7.3 28.3 have launched a new channel called the oregon channel

> The Oregon Channel provides gavel-to-gavel, unedited television coverage of
> state government and public affairs

This content sounds like it will be useful for Oregon viewers.

But... where is the bandwidth for this coming from? OPB already has
unacceptable levels of softness and artifacts in the HD and SD
subchannels they have now.

Not to mention all the other quality problems they should be addressing,
like putting out a signal that people can actually receive, the audio
crosstalk, the blackouts, the errors in the listings, ...

>> 10.3 7.3 28.3 have launched a new channel called the oregon channel

> The Oregon Channel provides gavel-to-gavel, unedited television coverage of
> state government and public affairs

This content sounds like it will be useful for Oregon viewers.

But... where is the bandwidth for this coming from? OPB already has
unacceptable levels of softness and artifacts in the HD and SD
subchannels they have now.

Not to mention all the other quality problems they should be addressing,
like putting out a signal that people can actually receive, the audio
crosstalk, the blackouts, the errors in the listings, ...

Well said, and that brings up a multicasting question I've been noodling on.

For those of you with a better technical understanding, can you please try to answer this for me:

If OPB's bandwidth is a hypothetical 100 'units', do 10-1, 10-2, and 10-3 each get 33.3 'units', or could 10-1 get 50, 10-2, get 30, and 10-3 get 20?

Ed,

I know you are the engineer, but this is not what I experienced on my HR10-250. I have always had KPTVDT at 12.1 and worked great. Some time in past two weeks, I tuned to channel 12.1 and got the searching for a signal message. After looking around online, I realized that this was not an antenna issue. This same station still had the guide information, but was no longer on frequency 30. (Through OTA signal strength I was able to verify this). After more reading, I did a rescan of OTA stations, and KPTV-DT (another 12.1 appeared). This channel was on frequency 30, tuned in video and audio, but didn't contain any guide information. This is still the way it is today.

Any more news from Tribune or Directv as to when this will be fixed?

Thanks!

L

KPTV-DT is the PSIP Short Channel Name that we've been transmitting for a few years now. Any receiver or TV set that actually reads the PSIP we're trasnmitting will show the channel that way. The PSIP Short Channel Name is a station optional field and has nothing to do with how a receiver tunes a channel. For instance, KGW's PSIP Short Channel Name is "KGW-HD".

The DirecTV receivers in question appear to be able to pay attention to the basic PSIP being transmitted by the local stations (major/minor channel number, TSID, etc.), but they appear to ignore the guide data we transmit, using instead the guide and tuning data sent over the satellite.

Unfortunately, since the affected recievers must be told by the satellite data to tune to a specific RF channel for each OTA HD station, there's no way to get the receievers to pay attention to the OTA PSIP to build a guide. One of the first things we did last week was to do an experiement where we changed our short channel name to "KPTVDT" (ie, we removed the dash) and it didn't change a thing - all that happened is that the affected receviers simply showed two "KPTVDT" 12.1 channels - one with a guide a no video and one with video but no guide...

I'm not personally familiar with the channel scan function on the HR20. I personally own an HR10-250 and the OTA channel scan function is located in the "Channels" section of setup. I've been doing lots of scans lately :)

Ed

10.3 7.3 28.3 have launched a new channel called the oregon channel more info is at
http://www.oregonchannel.org

Great just what we need :-(
I emailed them a number of times trying to find out when the main channel would go Digital. It took them 6 months to give a non-answer. I gather from phone calls to them and finally the email that they have no real interest in moving the main channel to digital. Sounds like it won't happen until analog is shut off. I was told most people watch OPB on Comcast so they feel no need to move it to digital when they can be using the broadband for other channels. I get a great picture on digital and a screen full of ghosts on 10 . I told them I'll maybe resume sending pledge money when you move the main channel to digital and no money from me until then period . This was only after feeling they weren't listening nor answering my questions. It's not like I think they would do it just for me. They seem to have their way of doing things and seem to careless what the public may want on this issue. I say this because even though I was very friendly they make it clear I was wasting my time asking for Main channel digital. So much for public imput to Public TV. It wouldn't have bothered me so much if more then one person hadn't seemed so out to lunch and couldn't care less . It was like just signup for Comcast...was their answer.
To answer the question on bandwidth. Yes they can pick and choose how much bandwidth each digital channel gets. Some stations give the big games more bandwidth then normal for example then switch back after the game is over.

Hello,

I will be moving to Mt. Park near the PCC Sylvania campus. Is anyone aware of OTA reception in that part of town? I know it's a forest out there, so I wasn't sure if I should just go with a cable HD package, though I'd like to get an OTA.

Thanks,
M

richardmayo> If OPB's bandwidth is a hypothetical 100 'units', do 10-1, 10-2, and 10-3
richardmayo> each get 33.3 'units', or could 10-1 get 50, 10-2, get 30, and 10-3 get 20?

The HD subchannel gets more bandwidth than the SD subchannels.
The bandwidth a subchannel uses varies from time to time.
More detail, more motion needs more bandwidth.

richardmayo> Is there a way to view that sort of information on my TVs ATSC tuner?

Depends on your tuner.

Here are some numbers I've logged:

Total = 19391072 bits/second
OPB-HD = 14578272 bits/second (just 2 PIDs)
OPB-SD (create) = 8583328 bits/second (just 2 PIDs)

These weren't taken at the same time. They *couldn't* be taken
at the same time, since the total of the HD + SD is 23161600
bits/second, and that doesn't fit.

I have observed that sometimes shows are "softer" than other times,
presumably they are limiting the bandwidth in order to shoehorn more
subchannels in. :-(

Schwinn> I emailed them a number of times trying to find out when the main channel
Schwinn> would go Digital.

By "main channel" you mean the content on the analog channel? It used to be on
digital. In January 2006 they replaced it with "create".

OPB> On January 9th, OPB's programming line-up changed in order to include a new=
OPB> national PBS channel called Create. Our local version, OPB Create, has rep=
OPB> laced the simulcast option we used to have so that our standard schedule is=
OPB> no longer available in digital format.
...
OPB> We are sorry that we are unable to offer a third channel with our standard =
OPB> program schedule in digital at this time. It is because our engineers have =
OPB> determined that the quality of all three signals may deteriorate because of=
OPB> the amount of material that can comfortably fit within the digital bandwid=
OPB> th we possess.

A third channel? They can't even fit two channels in.

This is supposed to be a transition period. We are supposed to be getting
ready for digital-only TV. Many newer products are digital-only. But to
watch OPB, we need to have analog capability.

What does OPB plan to do when the FCC yanks analog away?

Schwinn> I was told most people watch OPB on Comcast so they feel no need to move
Schwinn> it to digital when they can be using the broadband for other channels.

So much for their party line about serving everyone. Appariently they
only care about serving viewers willing and able to subscribe to Comcrap.
KOPB's digital signal is the worst of all the local stations. I have more
reception problems with them than all the other digital stations combined.

Schwinn> I get a great picture on digital and a screen full of ghosts on 10 .

I get a great analog picture on 2, 8, 10, 12, 24, 49, 54. No snow or ghosts.
Sometimes I forget whether I'm watching analog or digital. But OPB digital
drops packets, and even when it isn't dropping packets it often doesn't decode.

OPB is constantly begging for money as if they are about to go under.
Somehow they have the money to pay for 3, now 4 channels of material, they
have money to send a camera crew to Europe for an interview, they have money
to redecorate their sets frequently. But they ignore the basics. They can't
send out a decent signal, they can't fix the audio crosstalk problem, they
can't fix the screen-goes-black-for-a-second (both analog and digital) problem,
the program listings are frequently wrong, they have frequent digital artifacts
(even on the analog channel!), they willfully ignore viewer's wishes to have
all the content available on digital.

OPB: First get the basics correct. Then, if you have the money for so many
channels of content, ask the FCC for a second frequency allocation. Put the HD
on one and 2 SD channels (2 is all that fit given the numbers) on the other.

Ed,

I know you are the engineer, but this is not what I experienced on my HR10-250. I have always had KPTVDT at 12.1 and worked great. Some time in past two weeks, I tuned to channel 12.1 and got the searching for a signal message. After looking around online, I realized that this was not an antenna issue. This same station still had the guide information, but was no longer on frequency 30. (Through OTA signal strength I was able to verify this). After more reading, I did a rescan of OTA stations, and KPTV-DT (another 12.1 appeared). This channel was on frequency 30, tuned in video and audio, but didn't contain any guide information. This is still the way it is today.

Any more news from Tribune or Directv as to when this will be fixed?

Thanks!

LNo word yet.

An let me 'splain about the PSIP thing. What you report is the very issue that w'eve been working since the 19th of December.

"KPTVDT" is the channel ID that comes down over the satellite, from DirecTV. It is not and has nothing at all to do with the PSIP we transmit over the air - it's completely seperate data. On December 19th, DirecTV made what they're calling a "satellite move" (although they didn't move any satellites) and that satellite provided guide data got bolloxed up for stations all over the country, not jsut us here in Portland. The current count, as far as I can tell, is about 200 stations nationwide for which this guide data has disappeared.

The reason your HR10-250 wouldn't tune 12.1 on "KPTVDT" anymore is becasue of this corrupted data. Either DirecTV or TMS has somehow managed to corrupt the "tune to" number that's sent to the receiever that tells your receiver which OTA RF channel to tune (in the case of KPTV, channel 30).

Now, when you do channel scan, your receiver picks up the channel and is apparently able to read the base PSIP information (major/minor channel, etc.) and can display just that base information, but doesn't read anything else - namely, the guide data that we transmit. So, the receiver will show two 12.1's - one with guide data and no picture (recevier's not tuning to the right place) and one with picture but no guide data (receiver doesn't read local program guide info). Your receiver thinks this is a different channel because it's not being told that KPTVDT exists on channel 30 - if it was, it would blindly tune to 30 and display the picture and sound along with the SATELLITE PROVIDED guide data.

So, as I say, the short channel name has nothing to do with this. For instance - KOPB's short channel names right now (in local OTA PSIP) are "KOPB-HD", "Create" and "OC". KGW's short channel names are "KGW-HD" and "Weather". You'll notice, however, in your program guide that the channel names for those stations all show as "KOPBDT" and KGWDT" - because those are the channel names sent down on the satellite by DirecTV.

Feel fortunate - viewers in markets like St. Louis, Des Moines and a few others have lost ALL their OTA channels, not just one :eek:

Thanks for the answer, Konrad2!

Thanks for the detailed followup Ed, I understand it much better. I'm still trying to figure out if the Tivo S3 OTA is affected. Anyone here have an S3 using OTA? Are you getting guide data for 12-1 on the channel that tunes? Since it receives guide data via the internet from Tivo, I was wondering if it was different, or does it still come from the same service as where DTV gets their guide data?

L

Thanks for the detailed followup Ed, I understand it much better. I'm still trying to figure out if the Tivo S3 OTA is affected. Anyone here have an S3 using OTA? Are you getting guide data for 12-1 on the channel that tunes? No problems with reception or guide data for KPTVDT 12-1 here with my TiVo S3 OTA or with the TV Guide On Screen guide in my Toshiba DLP TV.

Thanks for the feedback GT1Boy..that is what I was hoping for! I'm dumping DTV next week for Comcast and the S3, so that is good news!

L

12/29/06 @ 1045 PST - I'm hearing a rumor that this problem may now be fixed on in the process of being fixed. I'm not near a receiver rigth now to check. Anyone care to do a quick channel scan and see what happens? Ed

I can now tune in to both 12.1 stations so it looks to be fixed now. I had tried about 45 minutes ago and couldn't, so it must have just been fixed.

Edward,

Just did a rescan and it removed KPTV-DT...just have KPTVDT 12.1....tunes in and has guide data! Thanks again for working to get this resolved and keeping us in the loop.

L

Excellent! The feedback from here and tests we've been doing with out own personal recievers at home (half my department is on vacation this week...) now give us solid confirmation that whatever fix DirecTV instituted at roughly 10:30 AM PST this morning has corrected the issue at least in the Portland market.

One hopes that now this fix will propigate across the country in the coming hours and days.

But I know that I can now enjoy MY New Year's Eve!

Later,
Ed

Thanks for the support Ed.

You'll be the first one I call the next time we have this issue. I couldn't even get anyone to admit there was a problem from my end let alone troubleshoot the issue.

Now if we can only get the 5.1 audio glitches resolved on your Mpeg4 stream, I could move onto something else.


Ben Payne
DST, DirecTV HSP OR/WA

Thanks for the support Ed.

You'll be the first one I call the next time we have this issue. I couldn't even get anyone to admit there was a problem from my end let alone troubleshoot the issue.

Now if we can only get the 5.1 audio glitches resolved on your Mpeg4 stream, I could move onto something else.


Ben Payne
DST, DirecTV HSP OR/WAThere are audio problems on our MPEG4 stream?

Oh dear... no- there are no problems on [i]your[i] audio stream. It's the Mpeg4 encoder in Castle Rock.

It's hard to pick out- but once every couple of minutes and especially on commercials, the audio stream exhibits a brief glitch that makes it sound like the audio is being put through a flange filter.

Don't start tearing everything apart on your end just yet- we've had mpeg4 audio encoding problems ever since the LiL came on.





I'll shut up now.

Thank you Edward. KPTVDT comes in fine on both the HR10 (after re-scanning) and on the HR20. Whatever they changed didn't change the software. I still have the "0x10b, Tue 12/19 at 2:45am" on the HR20.
It's good to have someone on here that DirecTV will listen to.

Thank you Edward. KPTVDT comes in fine on both the HR10 (after re-scanning) and on the HR20. Whatever they changed didn't change the software. I still have the "0x10b, Tue 12/19 at 2:45am" on the HR20.
It's good to have someone on here that DirecTV will listen to.

I didn't have to rescan at all. KPTVDT started working again automatically.

Oh dear... no- there are no problems on [i]your[i] audio stream. It's the Mpeg4 encoder in Castle Rock.

It's hard to pick out- but once every couple of minutes and especially on commercials, the audio stream exhibits a brief glitch that makes it sound like the audio is being put through a flange filter.

Don't start tearing everything apart on your end just yet- we've had mpeg4 audio encoding problems ever since the LiL came on.Ahhh... Gotcha. I never listen to the HD satellite streams long enough to hear issues like that. I use purely OTA HD at home. And the encoder is no longer in castle rock - it's either here in Portland or in Yakima, Washington (depending on which configuration they're using today)

Direct is in the process of bringing a whole slew of LUF's (Local Uplink Facility) online now and they apparently plan on having them all done in the next 18-24 months, each designed to uplink a specific region's stations (ie, Northwest, New England, Mid-Atlantic, Southeast, upper midwest, etc.) I have a friend who works for one of the subcontractors that just finished testing and commissioning the one in Yakima. In fact, it was THAT satellite uplink facility move (and the resulting "domino effect" of moving stations around in their national MPEG4 fiber network) that appears to have resulted in this loss of tuning data problem to start with. Tuning data lost on 12/19 .... facility went on line 12/19....

Ed

Edward, there's another problem with DirecTV you might look into. On the HR20 the MPEG-4 transmission of KPTV comes through without any Closed Captioning (shows & commercials). I e-mailed DirecTV about it and of course they blamed the station for not transmitting the CC.
It isn't that important for me since the OTA gets the CC but it would be more of a problem for someone out of the OTA area.

Sorry to jump in, but I don't know where else to ask this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was all excited about my new 60XBR2 and D* HD programing. I did a channel search and saw KATU 2-1 showing the Bowl games in HD, but the screen is blank!! OK, so I went to KOIN 6-1, it also listed the Bowl games in HD, the screen is blank there also.
This sucks!! With the Superbowl around the corner, is there anyway that I can get CBS in HD??
I actually live in Crooked River Ranch, ZIP 97760 (about 30 miles north of Bend).
I have emailed D* but no response so far.
Thanks for any suggestions.

You have no chance of receiving 2.1, 6.1, 8.1 or other Portland OTA channels in Bend. You may get some of these stations from D* if you have the newer receiver and antenna. I am not sure which stations are available from D* at this time. You may be able to enter your zip into the D* site and be able to order Distant Network Stations. Most of these questions might be answered on a thread for D* not portland OTA.

nater

Sorry to jump in, but I don't know where else to ask this.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was all excited about my new 60XBR2 and D* HD programing. I did a channel search and saw KATU 2-1 showing the Bowl games in HD, but the screen is blank!! OK, so I went to KOIN 6-1, it also listed the Bowl games in HD, the screen is blank there also.
This sucks!! With the Superbowl around the corner, is there anyway that I can get CBS in HD??
I actually live in Crooked River Ranch, ZIP 97760 (about 30 miles north of Bend).
I have emailed D* but no response so far.
Thanks for any suggestions.
DirecTV only has 12 KPTV & 8 KGW in the HD locals right now. You need an H20 or HR20 and a 5LNB dish to get them though.
Most of the Portland stations have translators for Bend but I don't know if they transmit HD. You'd have to cantact the stations to find that out.

http://www.katu.com/
http://www.koin.com/
http://www.kgw.com/
http://www.opb.org/
http://www.kptv.com/index.html
http://portlandscw.trb.com/
http://www.kpdx.com/

Thanks for the replys.
I got with D*, they are submiting a waiver for ABC and CBS. If this dosen't work, I will go with E* where I can get all the Networks HD programing.
There is no hope for OTA here.
Thanks again.

Thanks for the replys.
I got with D*, they are submiting a waiver for ABC and CBS. If this dosen't work, I will go with E* where I can get all the Networks HD programing.
There is no hope for OTA here.
Thanks again.

If Directv can't get you a waiver you're out of luck. Dish cannot provide you national networks HD or SD since 12/1 when the court order went into effect. I don't think they can provide you with Portland locals in Bend either.

Thanks in advance for any input. According to antennaweb, I live about 7 to 8 miles from the primary towers. I live in SE, some distance south of Mt. Tabor. I just brought home a Sony KDL-40S2010 and hooked up a Phillips Silver Sensor hoping to watch the major networks and OPB in HD. However, after I ran the auto-search, my TV only found 4 digital channels 22.1, 22.2, 22.3 and 22.4.

Any thoughts on what I should do first before buying an outdoor antenna?

Ahhh... Gotcha. I never listen to the HD satellite streams long enough to hear issues like that. I use purely OTA HD at home. And the encoder is no longer in castle rock - it's either here in Portland or in Yakima, Washington (depending on which configuration they're using today)

Ed


I was referring to the Mpeg4 decoder in Castle Rock, Colorado. To my knowledge, this is where the Mpeg2-to-Mpeg4 encoding process occurs. They appear to be building a back-up encoding facility in Mountainview, CA at their backup other uplink facility.

Whenever we've had encoding issues in the past, all the troubleshooting appears to have been done in Colorado.

Regardless of where the encoders are located in the process, it seems to be the thorn in Mpeg4's side that keeps it from being the "killer app" it was promised to be.

Thanks in advance for any input. According to antennaweb, I live about 7 to 8 miles from the primary towers. I live in SE, some distance south of Mt. Tabor. I just brought home a Sony KDL-40S2010 and hooked up a Phillips Silver Sensor hoping to watch the major networks and OPB in HD. However, after I ran the auto-search, my TV only found 4 digital channels 22.1, 22.2, 22.3 and 22.4.

Any thoughts on what I should do first before buying an outdoor antenna?
KPXG-DT transmits on VHF channel 4. You did not pick up any of the UHF DTV channels and should have. Make sure your TV is set to scan OFF AIR channels and not CABLE channels. Channel 4 is the only channel common between the two frequency schemes.

Edward, there's another problem with DirecTV you might look into. On the HR20 the MPEG-4 transmission of KPTV comes through without any Closed Captioning (shows & commercials). I e-mailed DirecTV about it and of course they blamed the station for not transmitting the CC.
It isn't that important for me since the OTA gets the CC but it would be more of a problem for someone out of the OTA area.An Engineeer from DirecTV actually called me about this a couple of days ago after reading ... this very thread.

Direct uses the EIA-708 captions to pass through on the MPEG4 satellite stream. We transmit both 608 and 708 captions and monitor both here at the studio.

We'll keep an eye on this one and see if we can spot something off.

I was referring to the Mpeg4 decoder in Castle Rock, Colorado. To my knowledge, this is where the Mpeg2-to-Mpeg4 encoding process occurs. They appear to be building a back-up encoding facility in Mountainview, CA at their backup other uplink facility.

Whenever we've had encoding issues in the past, all the troubleshooting appears to have been done in Colorado.

Regardless of where the encoders are located in the process, it seems to be the thorn in Mpeg4's side that keeps it from being the "killer app" it was promised to be.Actually, they're getting much more complex than that.

An Engineer friend of mine works for a DirecTV contractor that is building many local uplink sites around the USA. Eventually, Direct will apparently have uplinks in most regions of the US, uplinking the stations in that region. He's soon to be off to places like New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Texas, Minniesota and others to test and commission these uplinks.

The encoding for local stations is being handled (or will be once each particular region comes on line) at the local receive sites (the equipment in each city that aggregates the station signals) and the local uplinks. Castle Rock is now, to my knowledge, merely a monitoring site and is being used to uplink other types of signals now.

Regardless, it's the same issue MPEG4 is being made either at the local receive sites or at the local uplink sites. Direct has a nationwide MPEG4 fiber network that allows them, ostensibly, to uplink anything from anywhere. Troubleshooting is done in Colorado, however, because that's where one of Direct's primary engineering groups is located - the other being in L.A. Since they can look at any of the signals they're carrying on their MPEG4 system from any of their facilities, it doesn't really matter where the signals are being created.

The things you can do with wideband MPEG distribution nowadays is retty cool - but of course, that doesn't help anything if the original signal being created has issues.

Ed

anyone know if KATU is planning on anything? I notice the bitrate drop to about 13mbps without adding any subchannels so the rest just go to null. it was hardly perfect even with ~17mbps this just kinda make it look worse.

I always wonder why 1-4mbps go to null instead of using it to improve HD channel this is also the same with CBS/KOIN. Some programs come up with only about 9-11mbps, and I cant imagine that SD multicast would need 7-8mbps and it's not like HD look great at 9-11mbps. why not put those in null to good use in HD. is it some technical problem that prevent this?

I guess this leave the only good bitrate channel to MyNetworkTV. and occasionally Fox.

The storm we had last December knocked out most of my OTA stations.
I have a channel master HD antenna and amplifier in my attic so I know it hasn't changed and prior to the storm I could receive stations 2, 6, 8, 10, 12, and 49 PDX all very good. 6 would drop out periodically but at least it was there.
Now after that bad wind storm I can only receive 8-KGW, 12-FOX, and 10-OPB.

I realize some of the transmitters could have been damaged but shouldn't they have fixed this by now?
Is anyone else still on the bad side of receprion after that storm?

Additionally, I live in Albany so I know I was lucky to get anything at all but I really did get very good clear DTV and HD brodcasts from 2, 8, 10, 12, and 49.

Ideas?

There seems to be some good information on D* on here. Is there a time frame yet that we can see ABC and CBS in HD? I thought Fox had the superbowl, but it looks like CBS does so I may be SOL for that in HD. I figured we would have had those two networks by now in HD.

kevinls:
during that storm we had in december did you have a good hd picture for ch 6 while koacdt was off the air for a few days?
right now i have no picture for 6 or 22
the only ones i get are 2,7,8,10,12,28,32,34,49 north and 7,13,28,34 if i point south.


edwardewilliams:
just to let you know tonight 1/10 kpdx did not change to hd for mynetwork tv programing

I'm hoping someone can give me some advice. I just got my first HDTV just before Christmas. I figured that eventually we'll upgrade our DirecTV service or go Comcast or something for HD. But I wanted to at least see what all the fuss was about, so I went to Fred Meyers and picked up the $10 Jensen. It did an ok job, but wasn't entirely reliable. So I returned it for the $40 Jensen TV911. Then the holidays got me distracted and there wasn't much on, so I didn't mess with it much. Now that I see what I'm missing out on, I tried to watch Supernatural last night and the first 15-20 minutes were awesome, but then it started to break up and I finally got the dreaded Weak Signal screen.

- I'm located in Beaverton about 5.5 to 6 miles from the transmitters (near the Elmonica Max station if that helps; just off Baseline and 177th)
- I'm in a fairly flat location without any large building or trees nearby
- 99% of the time I get 10.1 really well, I get 8.1 probably 95% of the time, 2.1 & 6.1 are more spotty, but I've been getting them lately. When I check (which isn't often lately), I seem to get 12.1 and 49.1. I have a very tough time getting 32.1 and was surprised to see it coming in last night (for a little while anyway).
- At this time my antenna is simply sitting behind the TV on the sub wolfer in the SE corner of the house (1st floor).
- I had the gain on the antenna turned all the way up (about 25 dB). After doing a ton of research yesterday, I experimented with turning it way down and that didn't really help.
- The TV is a Samsung HL-S DLP model.

So, what can I do to improve my reception? I know having the antenna sitting on the sub behind the TV isn't great and higher is better. But beyond that, I'm not sure what improvements I can make. As I understand things, I shouldn't have to resort to an outside or attic antenna for my location and I'd rather up my DirecTV service than mess around with that. I should be able to still return the antenna if that one is just garbage (I've read good things about the Zenith Silver Sensor).

Any ideas? I can't believe I'm having problems with my location and feel it shouldn't take much to be getting great reception. I hope my expectations aren't out of whack because I love what I'm seeing.

I too live in Beaverton, near Hall and Allen, in a Metal Mobile Home and BOY was I surprised when I bought and connected the Zenith Silver Sensor - I get ALL the Major Local Digital HD Stations w/o a hickup [rarely] - and also get a bunch more that I do not watch. THUS- I HIGHLY recommend the above Antenna.
BTW = I too am about 5-6 miles from the antennas.

BEST of Luck, Michael of Beavertin ;)

Michael,

Where did you get one? I'd love to pick one up this weekend if there's a place in town that sells them.

I think I "GOOGLED" it and bought it from BUY.com for like $19.99. There are others that are basically the same antenna but with different names on them - I think Radio Shack might carry same thing but under different name. Also - IF you can wait a few days - EBay might have someone selling them too.
You will be GLAD you got one though - I'll bet you on that.

Circuit City carries the same antenna under the Phillips name, a quick check shows the Tigard store has them in stock for $24.99.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Philips-Indoor-HDTV-Antenna-PHDTV1/sem/rpsm/oid/158311/catOid/-12886/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

BTW, I too use a Silver Sensor and have for the last three years. I've been quite pleased with it. Be aware it is "directional" enough you may have to do a fair bit of tweaking to get its positioning just right as close as you are to the towers.

Thanks for the tip on Circuit City. That would be a lot closer than Fry's. Not that I wouldn't love a trip to Fry's of course, but the wife hates going there. :D

Plus it's nice to know that they currently have them in stock.

I got the Phillips antenna from Circuit City this afternoon. Initially it wasn't doing much better than what I already had, but after some relocating, I'm getting much better reception. 2.1 and 32.1 could still be a lot better, but at least they're more stable at this point. On the plus side, this antenna is $15 cheaper than the one I had. So that will be nice. It also doesn't get VHF, but that only knocks out channels 22.1-22.4. No big loss there.

looks like the Silver Sensor is UHF only...could someone recommend a useful not too expensive UHF/VHF (or VHF only ) indoor antenna? I live in SE Portland west of Mt. Tabor. I get resonable VHF reception with the $10 Jenson but the signal strength varies too much for it to be reliable for recording.

I've got an HR20 with the RC software (019). Yes, it would be nice to see the Super Bowl in HD.

looks like the Silver Sensor is UHF only...could someone recommend a useful not too expensive UHF/VHF (or VHF only ) indoor antenna? I live in SE Portland west of Mt. Tabor. I get resonable VHF reception with the $10 Jenson but the signal strength varies too much for it to be reliable for recording.

I've got an HR20 with the RC software (019). Yes, it would be nice to see the Super Bowl in HD.

I am not quite sure why you want to get VHF. As I understand it all Portland HDTV that is broadcast over the air is UHF. I do not have a VHF antenna, and I get all the stations great.

Jay

I am not quite sure why you want to get VHF. As I understand it all Portland HDTV that is broadcast over the air is UHF.
It won't be when the analog shutoff happens some time this century. Whenever that happens, KPTV and KOPB will be going back to their original VHF channels. KGW's channel destination was still up in the air the last time I checked but it's possible they'll go back to VHF too. Everyone else stays on UHF.

Don't count the Silver Sensor out completely for VHF reception either, I have no trouble picking up KPXG-DT with mine.

thanks, I figured that out eventually. Just bought the Philips antenna from Circus City, it works great. Thanks!

Even though the channels look like VHF, those are virtual channel numbers. 2-1 is really channel 43, 6-1 is 40, etc. They're mapped to more familiar looking channel numbers to avoid confusion. Look at the first post in this thread. The only VHF channel is 22-1, KPXG. If that channel is important to you, then you'll want to get a VHF antenna.

I returned my Jensen yesterday and the lady at Fred Meyers told me they've been getting lots of them returned.

Even though the channels look like VHF, those are virtual channel numbers. 2-1 is really channel 43, 6-1 is 40, etc. They're mapped to more familiar looking channel numbers to avoid confusion. Look at the first post in this thread. The only VHF channel is 22-1, KPXG. If that channel is important to you, then you'll want to get a VHF antenna.

I returned my Jensen yesterday and the lady at Fred Meyers told me they've been getting lots of them returned.

basic question from a newbie - I have antennae on both my HD tuners (Directv) which are the rabbit ears plus loop variety. Since most all HD channels are UHF do the rabbit ears provide any function? For some reason I thought the loop did UHF and the ears pulled in VHF. If so it would seem I could un-expand the longs ears for a better look - but it seems that has deterioted my picture a bit?

Thanks.

another newbie question: reading the first post, it looks like all the broadcast antenna are in about the same location and have about the same power. I'm wondering why KOIN consistantly has a weaker signal for me than the other channels? Seems like back in the analog days always had more issues with KOIN.

I returned my Jensen yesterday and the lady at Fred Meyers told me they've been getting lots of them returned.


I suspect the vendors are slapping "HDTV" labels on everything television related :o

10.3 7.3 28.3 have launched a new channel called the oregon channel more info is at
http://www.oregonchannel.org

Has anyone checked out this channel? I have re-scanned for OTA channels but it seems to be 'invisible' to my HR20. Is it actually beeing broadcast yet?
Thanks

I also have another question. What exactly is the reasoning for having some channels revert back to VHF after the switch? I have excellent UHF reception via antenna, but almost no VHF reception here.

Has anyone checked out this channel? I have re-scanned for OTA channels but it seems to be 'invisible' to my HR20. Is it actually beeing broadcast yet?
Thanks

My Vizio finds this channel. It seems to be politics, committee meetings and investigations etc. Very boring.

Jay

I also have another question. What exactly is the reasoning for having some channels revert back to VHF after the switch? I have excellent UHF reception via antenna, but almost no VHF reception here.

A couple of reasons come to mind. From stuff I've read in different posts and different places on the net....


1) The channels between 7 and 13 tend to be the better of the TV channels as far as propagation. Which means the coverage area could be better.

2) It takes less power to push a VHF signal v.s. a UHF signal for the same coverage area so it will likely save money on the power bill.

That second one would be a huge reason to switch.

basic question from a newbie - I have antennae on both my HD tuners (Directv) which are the rabbit ears plus loop variety. Since most all HD channels are UHF do the rabbit ears provide any function? For some reason I thought the loop did UHF and the ears pulled in VHF. If so it would seem I could un-expand the longs ears for a better look - but it seems that has deterioted my picture a bit?

Thanks.

another question, maybe someone has a comment: I have the Silver Surfer antenna and DTV HR20 receiver. I have been pointing the "nose" of the antenna at the towers and getting fairly good reception. After installing the lastest firmware update to the DTV (0x11b), I lost signal to 2-1. I find that if I rotate the antenna 90 horizontally and 90 degrees vertically that I have a signal on 2-1 (but not on any other station). Odd.


Comments?

Has anyone else been experiencing a degradation of their signal from Channel 8?
It has always been one of my strongest and stable signals [at about 90-96]. BUT even though it still registers that strength it has been dropping the signal and breaking up, in spite of it, for over a week now - WEIRD! I e-mailed CH 8 about it a couple of days ago - wondering IF something changed on their end - I have not changed anything here that I know of. Please let me know IF you too are now having reception problems with this channel.

TKS Michael :confused:

Has anyone else been experiencing a degradation of their signal from Channel 8?
It has always been one of my strongest and stable signals [at about 90-96]. BUT even though it still registers that strength it has been dropping the signal and breaking up, in spite of it, for over a week now - WEIRD! I e-mailed CH 8 about it a couple of days ago - wondering IF something changed on their end - I have not changed anything here that I know of. Please let me know IF you too are now having reception problems with this channel.

TKS Michael :confused:

Yes, I have been experiencing the same problem with CH 8. Most of the time it is just fine but it drops out or breaks up from time to time. This is the only HD channel doing this.

Jay

I too have been experiencing the poor reception on Channel 8_1 and 8_2. Though I thought that I was the cause of the reception problems as I was upgrading my MythTV box at the same time. This drove me nuts the past week because 8 used to be our strongest channel with no hickups. Funny thing is that my friend in Beaverton had no problems with 8_1 when I called him to check the signal. Thanks for posting.

I'm up in Vancouver along I-5

I looked through the Portland OTA thread and didn't see this talked about.

I have a HR10-250 that receives channel 10 over the satellite and channel 10.1 OTA. Often the Directv guide shows the wrong programming for 10.1. That makes it difficult to record the HD version of shows.

Also, if I go to the OPB web site it shows the correct programming for the HDTV channel. If I go to TitanTV it shows the incorrect programming for 10.1

Does anyone know what is going on here?

Thanks,
Caseyb

I have a HR10-250 that receives channel 10 over the satellite and channel 10.1 OTA. Often the Directv guide shows the wrong programming for 10.1. That makes it difficult to record the HD version of shows.

Odd. My HR10-250, as well as my S3, give pretty much correct guide data data for 10-1.

How wrong is it? Completely or just a few programs?

Has anyone checked out this channel? I have re-scanned for OTA channels but it seems to be 'invisible' to my HR20. Is it actually beeing broadcast yet?
Thanks


I am using the direct tv HR-20 receiver and this channel is not in my guide. Will direct tv be putting this on teh guide soon? Is there any alternate way to get it with the HR-20?

Odd. My HR10-250, as well as my S3, give pretty much correct guide data data for 10-1.

How wrong is it? Completely or just a few programs?


The Directv guide is wrong for just a few programs (and the OBP website is correct). It is always wrong for shows like Masterpiece Theater, Oregon ArtBeat, and Oregon Fieldguide. It seems to be right for 90% of the programming but not for the ones I want to watch.

Look at this Thursday (1/25) at 8:00 for 10.1. Directv guide shows "Nature" and OPB web site shows "Oregon Art Beat". I think what will actually show is Oregon Art Beat.

Because it isn't correct in the guide I can't get a season pass to capture the HD versions of Oregon Art Beat.

Because it isn't correct in the guide I can't get a season pass to capture the HD versions of Oregon Art Beat.
If it's any consolation, Oregon Art Beat isn't produced in HD.

The Directv guide is wrong for just a few programs (and the OBP website is correct). It is always wrong for shows like Masterpiece Theater, Oregon ArtBeat, and Oregon Fieldguide. It seems to be right for 90% of the programming but not for the ones I want to watch.

Yes, that has been my experience also.

Close enough that I don't worry about it since, last I checked, Oregon Field Guide was not HD (but should be.)

Yes, I have been experiencing the same problem with CH 8. Most of the time it is just fine but it drops out or breaks up from time to time. This is the only HD channel doing this.

Jay
And KATU has been having occasional audio problems, and KOIN still pops up with the "Loss of Input Signal" message from time to time.

It used to be that when ever there was any kind of "glitch" someone made a post about it. Anymore it seems we are all more accepting of these technical issues and tend to bitch about them less.

Just like the thing with the guide on KOPB-DT, while the guide is mostly correct, it does miss. I recorded Peter Frampton on Soundstage the other night, what I got was Masterpiece Theater. I didn't even consider posting about it in this thread though.

Yes, that has been my experience also.

Close enough that I don't worry about it since, last I checked, Oregon Field Guide was not HD (but should be.)
I believe the situation is that OPB has HD capabilities in the studio, but they don't have it yet for field work. So it would be possible to record the host intros in HD, but not the actual segments about artists or whatever. I volunteer for Art Beat, and that's what one of the directors told me.

Yes, that has been my experience also.

Close enough that I don't worry about it since, last I checked, Oregon Field Guide was not HD (but should be.)


It isn't broadcast in HD, but it is broadcast in widescreen. I don't know if it is now, but at one point in time it was passed at 480p. OFG is one of the few non-HD/upconverted shows I record that I'm forced to watch in 480p because the CUE bug on my HR10-250 is so bad at 1080i.

If it's any consolation, Oregon Art Beat isn't produced in HD.
Last Thursday (1/25) I recorded Oregon Art Beat on channel 10 (over DirecTV) and also Oregon Art Beat on channel 10.1 OTA. The OTA version appeared to be HD.

BTW the DirecTV Guide showed Oregon Art Beat on channel 10 and "Nature" on channel 10.1 at 8:00 on Thursday. Still not sure why this is. I have a note into OPB but no answer yet.

casey

Last Thursday (1/25) I recorded Oregon Art Beat on channel 10 (over DirecTV) and also Oregon Art Beat on channel 10.1 OTA. The OTA version appeared to be HD.

BTW the DirecTV Guide showed Oregon Art Beat on channel 10 and "Nature" on channel 10.1 at 8:00 on Thursday. Still not sure why this is. I have a note into OPB but no answer yet.

casey
Well, I'm just a volunteer, so I certainly could be wrong. But I think they record in 16x9, but not HD.

Did anyone else watch the 6:00 p.m. news on KOIN? It was in 16 X 9 HD! Am I just noticing this as new, or has it been going on for a while now? I was very impressed and won't be watching other station's news unless they go HD as well.

I was listening to KOIN 6pm news on my car radio and heard them make the announcement, and I thought, whoa... did I just hear them say what I thought they said? I was looking forward to checking it out on the 11pm news, and it looks great! I'm kind of surprised that KOIN was the first local station to make the change. I usually watch their 11pm news, anyway, because I watch Letterman. Funny I couldn't find any notice of it on their web site... you would think they would be crowing about it there. It makes me feel like finally we DTV viewers aren't being marginalized - maybe we can start gettin' some lovin'!

I wonder if this also means they will be first with the ability to record a HD feed to replay later.

Good job KOIN and thanks Lee, for your part. :)

Did anyone else watch the 6:00 p.m. news on KOIN? It was in 16 X 9 HD! Am I just noticing this as new, or has it been going on for a while now? I was very impressed and won't be watching other station's news unless they go HD as well.


KOIN has to do something to get people to watch their station. Easily the worst news team in Oregon, hopefully it'll be a start of something bigger and better for KOIN.

Did anyone else watch the 6:00 p.m. news on KOIN? It was in 16 X 9 HD! Am I just noticing this as new, or has it been going on for a while now? I was very impressed and won't be watching other station's news unless they go HD as well.

I noticed it last night also. It is great! Now if they could get a good anchor for the national news I could stay with them through all of the news.

Didn't get a chance to catch KOIN news last night or this morning. Looking forward to seeing this on screen. It's a major mile stone. I have to agree though, I kinda wish it were KGW instead :). Not only for the actual show, but KOIN already had nice looking SD upconverted news. KGW on the other hand has a problem with at least one of their studio cams or something. Their field report footage is fine, but one of the studio cams seems to produce vertical lines all across the screen.

Anyway, kudos to Lee & company! Also wanted to say, it's been some time since I recall hearing any of the messed up "shaker' sounding audio on the non-DD feeds from KOIN. So it looks like they were able to finally get that remedied. Very thankful for that too Lee!


ron

I watched this morning, it looks like widescreen SD on KOIN, not HD.

(and the weather graphics and such are just zoomed and cropped)

Still, a step forward, just not quite as big of step....

I was only half listening to Les Sarnoff on KINK this morning and they ran an ad for KOIN news which seemed to focus more on "filling your widescreen TV" than saying anything about HD. I didn't watch them last night but will be an interested viewer tonight. Have to agree about the content and personalities, though. Too bad it's not KGW.
I guess some good is coming out of the purchase by the new owners of KOIN. Keep it coming!

Wasn't there doomsday predictions about KOIN and HD after they were bought? Perhaps there was much ado about nothing.

I watched this morning, it looks like widescreen SD on KOIN, not HD.

(and the weather graphics and such are just zoomed and cropped)

Still, a step forward, just not quite as big of step....That sounds much less surprising then. As you say, a nice addition never the less. I will reserve judgment until I actually see it, but it sounds unfortunate about the fuzz & crop for the weather segments though. I'd prefer nice sharp 4:3 over soft 16:9 with part of the picture missing any day...


ron

After checking out the new KOIN news last night and a bit again this morning I'd have to say it all looks nicely integrated and produced. Some of it is a little too "busy" in a FOX Sports kind of way for my tastes but I have to applaud them for once again leading the way for digital/HD viewers. Some one needs to tell Jeff Baskin(sp?) he now needs to alter his habit of periodically moving forward during his weather casts though. With it zoomed up like it is, I kept thinking he was about to mug for the camera lens :D


ron

I dislike double posts as much as the next person, but some folks on the Portland Comcast thread got off on a tangent, so...

Lest I be misquoted you can get a replay of the KOIN Widescreen story at koin.com.

KOIN has been broadcasting CBS programming in HDTV since December, 1999. This will be our third HDTV Super Bowl.

We have long wanted to move to shooting news in 16:9 so that we could build our archive with material with a longer useful life. The change this week is that with the installation of new HDTV studio cameras in December the last impediment to producing our local news in 16:9 has been removed. Graphics have been reworked for 16:9, field cameras are now shooting in 16:9 and side panels are being added on 4:3 material to maintain the 16:9 aspect ratio. This is not to imply that EVERYTHING is shot in HDTV. Most material is still shot in standard definition with a 16:9 (local) or a 4:3 (news feeds) aspect ratio. This is just the first step and why I implored that we not call the news HDTV. It is widescreen, it is digital (had to give the marketing folks something) and it is a distinctly different product than what was being produced last week (count the hairs on the studio anchors head). The product that goes to air is still 'standard definition', but a very much better standard definition. It is the first step.

Just upgraded to the new Directv mpeg4 dish etc. I was using over the air ant. for local HD and now get kgw and fox thru directv. I understand abc and koin have not signed on. Does anyone have info on when that may happen?

Thanks

Hmmm anyone else seeing KOIN listed in two channels for Direct TV? I tried the DT channel out, but it gave me an error message saying that DirectTV does not have the rights to broadcast this channel. I thought I might have lucked out and that I might get to watch the Superbowl in HD tomorrow.

I asked D* for a waiver for ABC and CBS since they do not offer them in HD. I got the waiver that same day! Now I have the L.A. ABC and CBS channels with HD programing at no additional charge.

I asked D* for a waiver for ABC and CBS since they do not offer them in HD. I got the waiver that same day! Now I have the L.A. ABC and CBS channels with HD programing at no additional charge.
I tried getting a waiver, but they told me 45 days... Hmm maybe I will give them a call.

I tried getting a waiver, but they told me 45 days... Hmm maybe I will give them a call.
Have you tried just hooking up an antenna yet?


from your other, now locked, thread....
Well I'm pretty bummed that I will not be able to watch the Super Bowl in HD where I am at. I'm in the Portland, OR area with Direct TV HD Service and CBS and ABC still have not allowed D* to broadcast the HD signal. I was hoping I could at least get the CBS West channel for that game (I was willing to pay for it for a month), but it seems you need 45 days for a waiver to get completed. I guess there is always next year. For some reason I thought Fox had the rights to the Super Bowl in which case I would have been fine.

I guess I should have put up a OTA for the Local HD channels, but I figured since I had the HD package I would have gotten all my locals in HD at the same time.

I finally managed to get to Radio shack today(had to work the last few days) and did pick up an indoor antenna and so far so good it is working. Right now I have CBS at about 58% signal strength and the picture hasn't broken up up at all. I am a bit surprised it was that easy to seup with my HR20 700 box.

I figured I would do an indoor antenna since we are in a new neighborhood and am unsure what are neighborhood association will allow for antenna and dish's on the roof. I already have one Dish up there.

Cool, enjoy the Superbowl in HD!! :)

Cool, enjoy the Superbowl in HD!! :)
I plan on it. That other thread I started was more of a vent thread. I didn't think I was going to beable to make it to a store in time for the game.. I had some plans change today so it worked out.

Hey Lee, Just a quick post to let you know that your efforts to give us the best you can on these games is still noticed and appreciated.

Earl

The game looked great today except for the fogged over lenses. :D I was a bit bummed with the commercials though.

The game looked great today except for the fogged over lenses. :D I was a bit bummed with the commercials though.


Shows that even mother nature can outsmart even some of the best football coverage. Just surprised that some of the cameras weren't better protected, no way they should have had that much rain or moisture on them (skycam excluded of course).

They have some products for cameras (still cameras anyway) that work well to keep the drops of rain off the lens. One is a fan that blows a jet of dry air from under the camera's rain jacket to blow the rain away from the lens. You have to keep the camera nearly horizontal the whole time.

A cheaper simpler one is a hood that has a loop of clear film in front the lens that you crank whenever there are too many drops on it. A dry section of the film goes over the lens and the wet stuff goes through a cloth and dries under the rain jacket. The crank is manual but I'd think they'd have motorized version of it for remote cameras.

Shows that even mother nature can outsmart even some of the best football coverage. Just surprised that some of the cameras weren't better protected, no way they should have had that much rain or moisture on them (skycam excluded of course).
It's not so much the rain as the humidity. Moisture can't evaporateas well if the air around it is already saturated. We don't have to deal with that much around here.

At least they didn't have a heavy fog. I remember one game a few years ago in Chicago where only the hand cams down on the field could even get a glimpse of the game.

I dislike double posts as much as the next person, but some folks on the Portland Comcast thread got off on a tangent, so...

Lest I be misquoted you can get a replay of the KOIN Widescreen story at koin.com.

KOIN has been broadcasting CBS programming in HDTV since December, 1999. This will be our third HDTV Super Bowl.

We have long wanted to move to shooting news in 16:9 so that we could build our archive with material with a longer useful life. The change this week is that with the installation of new HDTV studio cameras in December the last impediment to producing our local news in 16:9 has been removed. Graphics have been reworked for 16:9, field cameras are now shooting in 16:9 and side panels are being added on 4:3 material to maintain the 16:9 aspect ratio. This is not to imply that EVERYTHING is shot in HDTV. Most material is still shot in standard definition with a 16:9 (local) or a 4:3 (news feeds) aspect ratio. This is just the first step and why I implored that we not call the news HDTV. It is widescreen, it is digital (had to give the marketing folks something) and it is a distinctly different product than what was being produced last week (count the hairs on the studio anchors head). The product that goes to air is still 'standard definition', but a very much better standard definition. It is the first step.

Lee: Thank you for all of you efforts. This is definitely a step in the right direction. I don't know if we are ready to see Jeff Gianola in high def just yet. :D Kelly Day, well that's a different story.

I was quite pleased with the quality of the OTA broadcast of the game, as OTA has been hit or miss for us. A few dropouts but not bad at all. Our first HD SuperBowl, and not a bad game at all.

I am pleased with KOIN's HD as a whole right now, I have been having no problems and it looks great.

Anyone notice that KATU has dropped their HD bitrate from 17.3 Mbps to 15.3 Mbps (less than Fox)? Are they planning a subchannel?

katu might already have a subchannel because kval in eugene(both fisher owned) has a hidden subchannel only accessible with ceratin tuners i stumbled accross it with a hdtv tuner for my mac.
down there there is no psip data but it is 25-4 or 5 the last time i looked also it comes up as a standard channel like 35.
i will look at katu when i get home from the coast to see if there is a subcannel.

also i heard the is a corp thing and could be turned off at any time

Anyone notice that KATU has dropped their HD bitrate from 17.3 Mbps to 15.3 Mbps (less than Fox)? Are they planning a subchannel?
The picture combined with the rapid fire audio pops I've been getting from them occasionally and I just figured they were having equipment problems. After the reaction from Alan when he shut down the ABC news feed they had temporarily, I didn't even consider they may have dropped the bitrate.

katu might already have a subchannel because kval in eugene(both fisher owned) has a hidden subchannel only accessible with ceratin tuners i stumbled accross it with a hdtv tuner for my mac.
I scanned it and didn't see any packets for any other channels. If the PSIP data is lying about what channels are there, it might be fooling the tool I'm using.

Even the MPEG header says 15,000 Kbps video and 448 Kbps audio.

Lee Wood, what's with the "Loss of Input Signal" message we've been getting more and more often on the HD feed lately?

I'm hoping Lee Wood or other forum regulars may shed some light on this. My in-laws have HD equipment and live in the far east of the Portland market area: La Grande, OR. That's over 250 miles east. Their local cable (Charter) hasn't got HDTV of the Portland channels and Direct TV's system won't provide them that far east due to a spot beam.

Are there any plans for getting HDTV out to the far-flung reaches of the Portland marketing area or are the rural folks just plain stuck?

FYI, La Grande, OR (and all of Union County), is in the Boise DMA (designated market area) for TV viewing.

so it seems KOIN turned off subchannel for Grammy too, didn't expect that at all. I'm very thankful as it'd look like a disaster at normal 13mbps with all the flash lights and all. I have to say it really shows how much subchannel hurt the HD.

I'm a bit puzzled though if they can afford to turn off the self-multicast SD on things like football especially superbowl and Grammy, why not do the same for all HD programs. Guess I probably miss something there.

A new thread for Verizon Fios was added to the Index for the Portland, OR DMA. Please locate all discussion of their rollout (news, announcements, spotting of crews laying fiber, etc.) in the following thread:

Portland, OR - Verizon (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9753136#post9753136)

so it seems KOIN turned off subchannel for Grammy too, didn't expect that at all. I'm very thankful as it'd look like a disaster at normal 13mbps with all the flash lights and all. I have to say it really shows how much subchannel hurt the HD.

I'm a bit puzzled though if they can afford to turn off the self-multicast SD on things like football especially superbowl and Grammy, why not do the same for all HD programs. Guess I probably miss something there.
I was very happy to the see the quality of Grammy 2007 broadcast. It looked so good that I thought there is no way they have a subchannel (6-2) turned on. So went and checked 6-2 (typically turned off, what a waste of bandwidth) and was happy to see nothing being broadcasted.
What is the purcpose of 6-2 subchannel? Is it aimed at SDTV customers that don't have HDTV receivers? I can understand 8-2 (weather channel, though I preffer to check weather online), but who needs 6-2?

I was switching between OTA feed and comcast cable feed on Grammy 2007. I had a feeling that a cable feed looked a bit sharper to my eyes (or maybe it's just my imagination). I have no way to check bitrate on my Samsung DTB-H260F HDTV receiver. I know that Comcast doesn't have 6-2 subchannel (though it has channel 6 duplicate in 70-th range), but not sure about the bitrate.
Should there be any difference in a broadcast quality of local channels OTA vs Comcast? Previously I've heard some rumor that Cable companies compress their signal. Is there a thread that talks about signal transmission steps involved in local channel broadcast?

Lee, thumbs up to 16:9 news broadcast. It's about time! I bet you can't even buy a half way decent TV set with 4X3 aspect ratio. We have been waiting for this to happened for a long time.

KOIN's SD subchannel has always been a mystery. They can't be using it for anything important like feeding a cable system or translators because you can't shut them off during the Super Bowl. It's like they dont' want us getting used to full bandwidth HDTV all the time. Maybe they're planning on getting a better encoder that can encode acceptable HD with a subchannel someday.

When the SD subchannel is on it really does look nice, better than their analog.

I've been noticing the audio pops on ABC-HD recently and got worried that my new tv was going out.

BTW, if anyone's looking for a Philips Silver Sensor HDTV antenna, I found them at the Tigard Circuit City for $24.99. I purchased it online for instore pickup and my order confirmation included a 10% off coupon that dropped the price to $22.49. It grabs the signal better than my old vhf/uhf rabbit ears that would fluctuate constantly.

Should there be any difference in a broadcast quality of local channels OTA vs Comcast? Previously I've heard some rumor that Cable companies compress their signal.


Per FCC regulations, cable companies are not allowed to alter or compress local OTA channels, nor encrypt them. I doubt Comcast is in violation of this, so it should be the exact same quality.

FYI, La Grande, OR (and all of Union County), is in the Boise DMA (designated market area) for TV viewing.

Actually, it isn't, although I found one source that seemed to map it that way. That part of Oregon is cut up so weird that you can actually find "checkerboarding" of the DMAs. The satellite people and the Portland stations know it's in their area.

So, anyone have any ideas about translators or other solutions? The big bummer is that the PDX stations won't grant waivers for the HD signal even though it's not possible to get it way out east. :(

Actually, it isn't, although I found one source that seemed to map it that way. That part of Oregon is cut up so weird that you can actually find "checkerboarding" of the DMAs. The satellite people and the Portland stations know it's in their area.

So, anyone have any ideas about translators or other solutions? The big bummer is that the PDX stations won't grant waivers for the HD signal even though it's not possible to get it way out east. :(
I stand corrected, with apologies.

It looks like I saw the map you referred to that shows it in the Boise DMA.

I have since looked at other conflicting references that show La Grande in the Yakima/Pasco/Kennewick DMA and in the Portland DMA. Perhaps there are even more that I did not find.

What a mess of conflicting sources.

I see analog translators in La Grande from some Portland stations, and one digital translator/low power station from KOPB in Portland.

I also see a local La Grande analog Univision (Fisher Broadcasting) station with a translator back in Portland. Kind of a reverse situation there for Fisher to bring Univision to Portland.

This scenario is another example of be careful of what you read on the internet.

Anyone out there have the new Directv dish to get MPEG 4 locals. I haven't made the switch since I get great OTA receiption. According to Directv.com they are only broadcasting channel 8 and 12. Is that correct? The only reason I am wondering is for the National HD channels. That being the case I am hearing diplexing an OTA antenna into the new system is a pain and wouldn't want to make the switch if D* doesn't provide the full compliment of network TV in HD.

Anyone out there have the new Directv dish to get MPEG 4 locals. I haven't made the switch since I get great OTA receiption. According to Directv.com they are only broadcasting channel 8 and 12. Is that correct? The only reason I am wondering is for the National HD channels. That being the case I am hearing diplexing an OTA antenna into the new system is a pain and wouldn't want to make the switch if D* doesn't provide the full compliment of network TV in HD.


Believe you can't diplex the antenna signal anymore for the mpeg4 boxes. And it's still just 8 and 12. Can't wait for FiOS!

Thanks!I have read online that you can diplex but it sounds messy. I too am seriously condidering FiOS TV. I have FiOS Internet being installed this Saturday. I am not too excited to have to get a bigger dish so once Verizon gets everything dialed in I will probably leave D*

Anyone out there have the new Directv dish to get MPEG 4 locals. I haven't made the switch since I get great OTA receiption. According to Directv.com they are only broadcasting channel 8 and 12. Is that correct? The only reason I am wondering is for the National HD channels. That being the case I am hearing diplexing an OTA antenna into the new system is a pain and wouldn't want to make the switch if D* doesn't provide the full compliment of network TV in HD.
You do need to run a seperate coax for the OTA antenna. The new 5LNB dish has a signal that interferes with the OTA signals if the line is bundled through the same multi-switch.
D* only has channels 8 &12 right now. They will eventually carry 2 & 6 but nothing else. You'll still need the OTA for the CW, PBS, etc.... I've got the HR20 DVR and it handles the OTA line-in signal great. I don't even bother with the D* satellite HD locals but just use the OTA for recording.
The main reason to upgrade is that during 2007 they'll be sending up two new satellites for new HD channels. Without the 5LNB and an H20 or HR20 DVR receiver you won't be able to receive them.

You do need to run a seperate coax for the OTA antenna. The new 5LNB dish has a signal that interferes with the OTA signals if the line is bundled through the same multi-switch.
D* only has channels 8 &12 right now. They will eventually carry 2 & 6 but nothing else. You'll still need the OTA for the CW, PBS, etc.... I've got the HR20 DVR and it handles the OTA line-in signal great. I don't even bother with the D* satellite HD locals but just use the OTA for recording.
The main reason to upgrade is that during 2007 they'll be sending up two new satellites for new HD channels. Without the 5LNB and an H20 or HR20 DVR receiver you won't be able to receive them.

Thanks. I have read online of a way you can diplex into the new system you just need to place the BBC and the diplexer and the OTA antenna after the multiswitch. It is out there in a few forums, but seems a bit messy. Plus I am not to keen on the size of the new dish even the slimline. I have a couple H20s and the HR10-250. I am doubtful I will make the switch to the new DVR or MPEG-4. I pray FiOS is a viable option.

i have had a chance at look at katu signal and it does not contain a subchannel
also kval in eugene no longer has a subchannel but the bitrate stayed the same so the subchannel might still be there but not broadcasting anything

Don't you love sweeps? KGW 11 PM newscast on Friday did a report on how analog TV will go away in 2 years.

Here's a typical "man in the street" interview question:

Q: Do you have an analog TV?

A: No, I have an RCA.

I'm still not convinced this will happen so soon. Once Joe Sixpack finds out he's losing his Nascar coverage, the pols will back-pedal faster than a Kerry flip-flop.

I always thought the broadcasters would be leading the charge for keeping both channels, but now I'm not convinced. It must be costing them a fortune to operate both simultaneously.

Phantom,
Please spare us the political comments.

Don't you love sweeps? KGW 11 PM newscast on Friday did a report on how analog TV will go away in 2 years.

Here's a typical "man in the street" interview question:

Q: Do you have an analog TV?

A: No, I have an RCA.

I'm still not convinced this will happen so soon. Once Joe Sixpack finds out he's losing his Nascar coverage, the pols will back-pedal faster than a Kerry flip-flop.

I always thought the broadcasters would be leading the charge for keeping both channels, but now I'm not convinced. It must be costing them a fortune to operate both simultaneously.



I didn't watch the program, but did they mention that it's currently ONLY for OTA broadcasts? Cable and satellite are exempt from this rule.

I don't think most people will mind getting a digital STB to watch better OTA broadcasts than they were getting before.

I do think that people will mind when they find they can't easily program their old VCRs to record these broadcasts like they had been doing before.

I don't know of many people who still use VCR's anymore. They might not have a DVR, but they most certainly do not use a VCR to record anything, nor watch videos.

Almost everyone I know still uses a VCR. All my coworkers still exchange blurry recordings of football games and TV shows on VHS tapes and we're all computer programmers. There is one guy who just bought a DVR that can burn DVDs. In any case their DVR won't work with the converter either.

Also, only one other coworker has an HDTV (not the same guy with the DVR). No one I know of is planning on replacing their analog TVs or VCRs any time soon.

I didn't watch the program, but did they mention that it's currently ONLY for OTA broadcasts? Cable and satellite are exempt from this rule.
Yes they did mention that it's only for OTA and that you shouldn't worry if you have cable or satellite. They also talked about adapter boxes being available and made a passing comment about subsidies for those boxes. So, all in all, quite a lot of information in just a few minutes.

Still, they could run a hundred reports like this and it would raise awareness of the issue among the general public from about 1% to about 5%. (Percentages just made up by me, before anyone complains).

And as for keeping politics out of the discussion, I predict this has the possibility of turning into a real political hot potato. I can just see certain politicians (who now must remain nameless) saying: "Yes I voted for ending analog TV broadcasting before I voted against it."

All politics aside, and this probably isn't the right thread for it, but I sincerely believe that Joe Sixpack will be very very upset once he realises all the implications of this change. IMO.

Still, they could run a hundred reports like this and it would raise awareness of the issue among the general public from about 1% to about 5%. (Percentages just made up by me, before anyone complains).
And since won't happen for years, I bet the awareness would quickly fall back to what it was before the reports aired as long as everyone's TV kept working.

All politics aside, and this probably isn't the right thread for it, but I sincerely believe that Joe Sixpack will be very very upset once he realises all the implications of this change. IMO.
Talking around the office, I've found everyone (except for me and the other HDTV freak) gets their TV from cable and satellite. Almost everyone thought that television reception with an antenna only guaranteed you a fuzzy ghosty picture and might as well be gotten rid of since it was just a stop-gap measure before cable and satellite made television practical. I've even talked to a couple of people who were surprised TV stations were still broadcasting OTA as if they had all shut down their transmitters once they got on cable (except for "those tiny UHF stations" that you can't get on cable).

Although these people might not represent the majority, no one I've talked to thinks the shutdown will affect them in any way.

All politics aside, and this probably isn't the right thread for it, but I sincerely believe that Joe Sixpack will be very very upset once he realises all the implications of this change.
I think this is a classic example of false intelligence.

I go along with Scowl, Cable and Satellite will act as a buffer for the majority.

"Joe Sixpack" will only be concerned if the evildoers actually start getting bushy with his picture.

Since loading the latest DTV HR20 firmware (0x130) I cannot receive 10-1, all my other OTA reception is normal. Anything going on with 10-1?

Since loading the latest DTV HR20 firmware (0x130) I cannot receive 10-1, all my other OTA reception is normal. Anything going on with 10-1?
It's working fine for me, or at least as good as it can with 2 sub-channels...

I've had a Toshiba 42HM66 TV since Oct/Nov. and using the autoscan feature it picked up all the major DTV channels (2.1,6.1,8.1,8.2,10.1,10.2,10.3,etc) without an external antenna. Last wednesday, all the channels had no signal and the times for the INFO display were alla round 8:23am.

I've since run auto scan several times and when it comes to the DTV portion, it says 1 channel scanned, 0 found and then completes.

It's coming up on a week withot getting any HD feeds OTA and I'm wondering, is it due to Comcast (I have Comcast, non-digital expanded basci) or the weather?

I've had a Toshiba 42HM66 TV since Oct/Nov. and using the autoscan feature it picked up all the major DTV channels (2.1,6.1,8.1,8.2,10.1,10.2,10.3,etc) without an external antenna. Last wednesday, all the channels had no signal and the times for the INFO display were alla round 8:23am.

I've since run auto scan several times and when it comes to the DTV portion, it says 1 channel scanned, 0 found and then completes.

It's coming up on a week withot getting any HD feeds OTA and I'm wondering, is it due to Comcast (I have Comcast, non-digital expanded basci) or the weather?
Comcast would have nothing to do with OTA, and the weather has been great except for today.
Could you be mistaking the QAM locals from Comcast for OTA? (you mentioned not needing an antenna)
Have you tried using a UHF antenna? or, here's a link to the Portland Comcast thread ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9821254#post9821254

Comcast would have nothing to do with OTA, and the weather has been great except for today.
Could you be mistaking the QAM locals from Comcast for OTA? (you mentioned not needing an antenna)
Have you tried using a UHF antenna? or, here's a link to the Portland Comcast thread ...


I'm not sure what QAM is. All I know is that the primetime shows from 2,6, and 8 are in widescreen and says 'Presented in HD Widescreen' at the start of shows.

I'm not sure what QAM is. All I know is that the primetime shows from 2,6, and 8 are in widescreen and says 'Presented in HD Widescreen' at the start of shows.
I looked up your TV and it does have both an ATSC and a QAM tuner in it.
An ATSC tuner is what you'd use for OTA reception with an antenna and a QAM tuner allows you to view unencrypted digital channels through your Comcast cable.

I can't be of much help with why your TV stopped picking up the QAM channels from Comcast, as I checked and they are still there.
Maybe a setting on your TV was inadvertently changed?

Since your issue is not an OTA one, this should probably be moved to the Portland Comcast thread as it would be more appropriate there.

(or you could get an antenna...) :)

Thanks for the help; I asked over there and am awaiting a reply. If I got an antenna, about how many channels should I get? Would I get stuff like TNT, Discovery channel, etc?

You will only get local channels OTA. For TNT, Discovery, and the like, you will need either cable or satellite.

It's working fine for me, or at least as good as it can with 2 sub-channels...


good point. I moved my antenna a bit and am seeing it again. The 10-X channels are pretty thin :(

Thanks for the help; I asked over there and am awaiting a reply. If I got an antenna, about how many channels should I get? Would I get stuff like TNT, Discovery channel, etc?
As was mentioned, you'll only get the local broadcast channels, which include...

IN HD
KATU 2-1
KOIN 6-1
KGW 8-1
KOPB 10-1
KPTV 12-1
KRCW 32-1
KPDX 49-1

In SD
KOIN 6-2
NBC Weather Plus 8-2
PBS Create 10-2
OPB local politics 10-3
ION 22-1
Qubo 22-2,
ION Life 22-3
Worship 22-4
5 religious programming subs on 24-1 - 24-5
The tube Music Network 32-2

And as for keeping politics out of the discussion, I predict this has the possibility of turning into a real political hot potato. I can just see certain politicians (who now must remain nameless) saying: "Yes I voted for ending analog TV broadcasting before I voted against it."I believe your quote should more accurately go something like this, "I voted for the analog shutdown before I found out that I had been lied to about it by the administration via a raft of strong armed, manufactured BS "evidence" in order to promote their personal agendas. In good conscience I could no longer support their ridiculous plan and therefore voted against it." :rolleyes:


ron

Up until a couple of months ago, OPB was broadcasting test patterns on 10-2 (or maybe it was 10-3). They only did this for a short period. I assume these were SD, but in any case, they have since disappeared.

Does anyone broadcast OTA test patterns at any time (i.e late nite), either SD or HD. I'd really like to be do some white and black level and color and tint adjustments, but without an OTA pattern, the best I can do is adjust for my DVD feed.

I tried emailing each of the stations about a year ago, and actually didn't even receive a response from any of them. Which kinda ticked me off. I wonder now if maybe they simply didn't know what I was asking.

Thanks,
Rick

If you have DirecTV and the HD package, check HDNet for it's test pattern, usually it's Tuesday mornings at about 6am or something like that, it's only about a 10-15 minute program to keep an eye out for.

If you have DirecTV and the HD package, check HDNet for it's test pattern, usually it's Tuesday mornings at about 6am or something like that, it's only about a 10-15 minute program to keep an eye out for.


No, I have Dish, not DirectTV and its not Hi Def Dish, so I don't get the HD package. And they also havent responded. BGut thats also a different input. My tv has setting for each input. I've eyballed them as best I can, but I'd sure like to have the pattern available for at least a little while, preferably late at nite or early early morning (trying for a dark period).

Thanks though.

Rick

About KATU dropping the HD channel to 15 Mpbs. Apparently they've gotten a new encoder. There's no longer a green line on the right edge of the image. Also there used to be two pink/magenta bars that would flash on the screen whenever they switched to the HD feed and that doesn't happen any more.

About KATU dropping the HD channel to 15 Mpbs. Apparently they've gotten a new encoder. And yet LOST still looked great on a 57" TV. Gotta love new encoders!

And yet LOST still looked great on a 57" TV. Gotta love new encoders!
How many inches does KATU broadcast?

antennaweb says I need a Small Multi-Directional antenna for my location. I have a SilverSurfer now but it doesn't do a good job with 10-1, which is all I need an antenna for. Doing web searchs I've come up with this one (http://www.affordablehdtv.com/terrestrial-digital-db2-multidirectional-hdtv-antenna-p-2.html?ref=100) . I live in a 4+ story house with a steep roof so roof mounting will not be an option, I'll have to mast mount or something similar.




Comments?

antennaweb says I need a Small Multi-Directional antenna for my location. I have a SilverSurfer now but it doesn't do a good job with 10-1, which is all I need an antenna for. Doing web searchs I've come up with this one (http://www.affordablehdtv.com/terrestrial-digital-db2-multidirectional-hdtv-antenna-p-2.html?ref=100) . I live in a 4+ story house with a steep roof so roof mounting will not be an option, I'll have to mast mount or something similar.


Comments?


or would a Medium Directional be better if I'm just after one channel?

> I live in a 4+ story house with a steep roof so roof mounting will not
> be an option

Do you have an attic? An "outdoor" antenna in an attic works well for
many people.

> or would a Medium Directional be better if I'm just after one channel?

The more directional the antenna, the less multipath and interference
it will pick up. It will also have more gain, so you can split the
signal to more tuners without needing an amplifier.

The following have good reputations:

Winegard PR-8800
Antennas Direct DB-8
Channel Master 4228
Antennas Direct XG91 Yagi

I have the PR-8800 in my attic. Plenty of signal, no snow or
ghosts on the analogs. Digital reception is sometimes 100%
perfect, sometimes the tuner/demod misses a few packets,
occasionally really bad.

Quad-shield coax will pick up less interference.

How many inches does KATU broadcast?
I just *know* that if I stare at this question long enough, I'll figure out the joke. I just know it. :confused:

Did anybody else catch the delayed airing of last Wednesday's Friday Night Lights ep yesterday afternoon? After about 20 minutes of the expected SD it suddenly flipped to full widescreen. FNL is pretty grainy and low-rez looking to begin with, but it sure looked like a normal HD feed of the show to me. Have any of the PDX stations locally delayed network HD and then actually aired the programming in HD before? I was under the impression that none of them had the necessary equipment to do that?


ron

That was crazy. They had the HD logo but it was chopped 4:3, until it suddenly went 16:9. I couldn't tell if it was actual HD or widescreen SD because with FNL, who can tell?

KGW does have some HD equipment that other stations don't have. They stick their ID and other local graphics into the HD feed without switching to the SD feed. That used to be a problem with Saturday Night Live since they'd never remember to switch it back.

Did any others have trouble with KOIN digital signal tonite? I had to watch analog the whole evening. signal strength was about half normal. I checked other stations and they were all fine (a little low - 3-4 percentage pts. - but came in fine).

I thought a number of stations were located on same antennae tower. Why wouldnt reception problems affect more than just one station then?

Thanks,
Rick

KOIN has been coming in a little weaker than usual for me over the last two or three weeks. Not enough to be a problem for me.

> Did any others have trouble with KOIN digital signal tonite?
> I had to watch analog the whole evening. signal strength was
> about half normal. I checked other stations and they were all
> fine (a little low - 3-4 percentage pts. - but came in fine).

I don't know about last night, but today KOIN digital is coming in
about as well as normal. Signal strength is currently 86 (of 100),
and has run from 71-86 in the past. The "quality" is running
60-65 (of 100), and has ranged from 40-70 in the past. No dropped
packets in a couple of 1 minute tests. Note that some tuners say
they are reporting signal strength, but are really reporting quality.

> I thought a number of stations were located on same antennae tower.

Yes. From the first article in this thread:

Lee> For antenna aiming, all of the stations are clustered near SW Burnside
Lee> and Skyline. The Sylvan Site (KOIN, KATU, KWBP and KNMT) are the two
Lee> equal height tower furthest east. The Skyline Site (KGW, KOPB and KPXG),
Lee> the tower with a 'forked' antenna mount on the top, is in the center.
Lee> The KPTV and KPDX sites are the two tall towers furthest west.

> Why wouldnt reception problems affect more than just one
> station then?

I'd like to know the answer to that myself. If you are very close to the
towers (say under 2 miles) the direction will be different. In some cases
the frequencies are sufficiently different to have different propagation.
But when the directions are close, and the frequencies are close, I have
to wonder what is going on.

Interference can affect one station significantly and not touch a station
1 channel away. This can be easy to observe on analog, but I haven't
found a way to diagnose interference with digital.

I'm three miles East of Battle Ground, WA and frequently have trouble with KOIN. Have had to switch CSI recording from digital to analog. Antennaweb says all the Portland stations are between 197 and 200 degrees from me and are 22.3 to 22.4 miles away. I use a Sony DHG-Hdd500 tuner and a Channel Master CrossFire antenna mounted in the attic. The other stations are usually 77% to 94% signal strength with "good" signal quality. KOIN is usually 33% to 66% signal strength with "below normal" signal quality. Has anyone tried anything that helps KOIN?

I'm three miles East of Battle Ground, WA and frequently have trouble with KOIN. Have had to switch CSI recording from digital to analog. Antennaweb says all the Portland stations are between 197 and 200 degrees from me and are 22.3 to 22.4 miles away. I use a Sony DHG-Hdd500 tuner and a Channel Master CrossFire antenna mounted in the attic. The other stations are usually 77% to 94% signal strength with "good" signal quality. KOIN is usually 33% to 66% signal strength with "below normal" signal quality. Has anyone tried anything that helps KOIN?
TRY A YAGI LIKE THE RADIO SHACK U75 OUTSIDE AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE! :)

>> I use a Sony DHG-Hdd500 tuner

I don't suppose you know what demodulator chip it has?

>> and a Channel Master CrossFire antenna mounted in the attic.

> TRY A YAGI LIKE THE RADIO SHACK U75 OUTSIDE AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE!

A different type of antenna, such as a yagi or 8-bay might do better,
or it might not. Impossible to predict.

Radio Shack antennas have a poor reputation. A CM CrossFire should
do better than anything from RS.

Moving it outside may get better reception than in the attic, or
it might actually get worse. It depends on what the cause of the
poor reception is. Attic antennas are protected from rain/snow/ice,
corrosion, wind, critters, etc. Some TV station engineers have their
personal TV antennas in the attic.

Higher is usually better, but not always.

KOIN digital is channel 40. How is reception of the Portland
UHF analog stations? Any snow? Ghosts? Interference?

TRY A YAGI LIKE THE RADIO SHACK U75 OUTSIDE AS HIGH AS POSSIBLE! :)

Thanks for the suggestion. The crossfire I'm using is a YAGI, seems to have a decent reputation. Unfortunately, WAF precludes outside mounting. Outside might help but height shouldn't matter much, I'm at about 600' elevation but there are a lot of fir 100' to 140' tall between transmitter and house. The odd thing is it's mainly a problem with KOIN, other stations a degree on either side are fine and at same distance are fine. I'm going to try an amplifier next, if that doesn't work will try something like the Radio Shack or the Silver Sensor. New antenna is last, crawling across ceiling rafters and through insulation in the attic is a real pain.

Up until a couple of months ago, OPB was broadcasting test patterns on 10-2 (or maybe it was 10-3). They only did this for a short period. I assume these were SD, but in any case, they have since disappeared.

Does anyone broadcast OTA test patterns at any time (i.e late nite), either SD or HD. I'd really like to be do some white and black level and color and tint adjustments, but without an OTA pattern, the best I can do is adjust for my DVD feed.

Rick, last Monday when I was ready to watch new episode of Prison Break, I discovered that my screen went black for like 5 minutes, then they started some old movie instead. It was the same problem with analog broadcs over cable. I figured they won't show Prison Break and started to watch some DVD movie. Then out of curiosity I switched back to channel 12 (Fox) and discovered that they are showing a test pattern. I used the opportunity to adjust color, tint, brightness and conctrast. Later on they switched back to Prison Break. They didn't skip any commercial brakes! They simply cut 30 minutes off Prison Break show!

Channel 10-2 was showing test patterns previously. I believe at that time 10-3 wasn't even available.

This was probably the wackiest screwup I've seen in the last few years. When Prison Break was supposed to have started, all we had were color bars and the Fox logo. Then KPTV, I guess in a panic, started running the episode of M*A*S*H they would have run past 11PM. About 15 minutes into that they cut into the SD feed of Prison Break which was followed by the HD feed about ten minutes later.

This was probably the wackiest screwup I've seen in the last few years. When Prison Break was supposed to have started, all we had were color bars and the Fox logo. Then KPTV, I guess in a panic, started running the episode of M*A*S*H they would have run past 11PM. About 15 minutes into that they cut into the SD feed of Prison Break which was followed by the HD feed about ten minutes later.

Have to agree that this was a very odd screw up. Seems clear that they lost the Fox network feed. However since no one at channel 12 could be bothered to communicate we had to guess at what was going on. It was just short of 20 min before they finally got the feed back and started showing Prison Break. Why was there no screen info telling us what was going on. Also they have a web site no mention there either. I didn't call but that's not as easy as it used to be either. TV station phone numbers at least for some stations aren't that easy to find and chances are during prime time no one will answer. It more of a 9-5 office hours thing. Makes you wonder how they get braking news. Speaking of I don't think they mentioned the missing Prison Break during the 10 o'clock news. Strange here we are in the "Information age" and they can't be bothered to communicate. So when are they repeating Prison Break so we can see what we missed?

Did any others have trouble with KOIN digital signal tonite? I had to watch analog the whole evening. signal strength was about half normal. I checked other stations and they were all fine (a little low - 3-4 percentage pts. - but came in fine).

I thought a number of stations were located on same antennae tower. Why wouldnt reception problems affect more than just one station then?

Thanks,
RickLast night as I was watching Survivor the feed showed periodic "streaks" of breakup. Audio seemed fine. I was watching via Comcast so I switched over to OTA and it was the same... While on OTA I checked the signal meter and it was basically rock solid showing almost no fluctuation and 0 errors.

Then there's the KGW audio mess...


ron

This was probably the wackiest screwup I've seen in the last few years. When Prison Break was supposed to have started, all we had were color bars and the Fox logo. Then KPTV, I guess in a panic, started running the episode of M*A*S*H they would have run past 11PM. About 15 minutes into that they cut into the SD feed of Prison Break which was followed by the HD feed about ten minutes later.That like back in the day when KGW used to show their "HD loop" continuously before NBC actually had any HD programming. Occasionally you'd catch them running it in high speed reverse. It was a good way to see the Starlight Parade in short order as long as you didn't mind the marching bands and floats going backwards down the street :D.


TV station phone numbers at least for some stations aren't that easy to find and chances are during prime time no one will answer. It more of a 9-5 office hours thing. Just call the news line. They always answer... and you're generally greeted by a pissed off person who's tired of answering calls from disgruntled HD viewers ;)


ron

> I'm going to try an amplifier next

A crossfire at 22 miles should provide enough signal. An
amplifier is likely to overload and make your reception worse
instead of better.

Do you have snow on the analog UHF stations (e.g. channel 49)?
If you don't have snow on the analog UHF stations, you have
plenty of signal strength and an amplifier will not help.
A good snow-free analog picture requires at least 30-something
dB S/N. A digital channel requires at least 15.something dB S/N.

It is possible that you already have a signal that is too strong
and overloading the tuner. A $2 attenuator right at the tuner
input is an easy and inexpensive thing to try.

Do you have ghosts on the analog UHF stations (e.g. channel 49)?
Ghosts on analog mean multipath. The newer 4th and 5th generation
demodulators handle static multipath pretty well. Dynamic
multipath from vehicles and such is more difficult for the demod
to fix.

If your problem is multipath, changing the aim or moving your
antenna might help. A different type of antenna with a
different radiation pattern may help. A separate UHF antenna
does better than a combo VHF/UHF. The 8-bay style UHF antennas
are said to do slightly better in attics than yagis with similar gain.
Consider the Winegard PR-8800, Channel Master 4228, and the Antennas
Direct DB-8.

> there are a lot of fir 100' to 140' tall

I assume the antenna "looking" through these trees. Is reception
worse when it is windy, or when the trees are wet? If the trees are
the problem, it seems strange that they would only hurt KOIN.

> Unfortunately, WAF precludes outside mounting.

Guess that rules out a 150 foot tower to clear the trees.

That like back in the day when KGW used to show their "HD loop" continuously before NBC actually had any HD programming. Occasionally you'd catch them running it in high speed reverse.
Oh yeah, I remember that loop! They had that thing on moving a lighthouse. Over and over.

> So when are they repeating Prison Break so we can see what we missed?

I'm still waiting for the rerun of the election night episode of House
that some idiot decided to interrupt with a half hour of screaming
buffoons jumping up and down and some moron gushing every time some
politition walked by. You'd think it was a bunch of teenage girls
at a 1965 Beatles concert.

Clue: Elections are not breaking news. The dates are known months
in advance. If you want to air election coverage, then schedule it
ahead of time.

And a clue for KATU: A 2.something earthquake is not show-interrupting-
worthy news. If we have an earthquake big enough to worry about, we'll
all be under the sturdiest desk/table we can find, not watching TV.

And a clue for whichever station it was: A missing child is not
show-interrupting-worthy news. If the kid is in my living room,
I'll be contacting the police about a trespasser. If the kid is not in
my living room, there is no hurry to get the photo onto the TV screen,
now is there? Put it on the regularly scheduled news show, or
squeeze it in during the commercial break.

If we are being invaded by Martians, then interrupt. Most other things
can wait for the regular news.

> I'm going to try an amplifier next

A crossfire at 22 miles should provide enough signal. An
amplifier is likely to overload and make your reception worse
instead of better.

Do you have snow on the analog UHF stations (e.g. channel 49)?
If you don't have snow on the analog UHF stations, you have
plenty of signal strength and an amplifier will not help.
A good snow-free analog picture requires at least 30-something
dB S/N. A digital channel requires at least 15.something dB S/N.

It is possible that you already have a signal that is too strong
and overloading the tuner. A $2 attenuator right at the tuner
input is an easy and inexpensive thing to try.

Do you have ghosts on the analog UHF stations (e.g. channel 49)?
Ghosts on analog mean multipath. The newer 4th and 5th generation
demodulators handle static multipath pretty well. Dynamic
multipath from vehicles and such is more difficult for the demod
to fix.

If your problem is multipath, changing the aim or moving your
antenna might help. A different type of antenna with a
different radiation pattern may help. A separate UHF antenna
does better than a combo VHF/UHF. The 8-bay style UHF antennas
are said to do slightly better in attics than yagis with similar gain.
Consider the Winegard PR-8800, Channel Master 4228, and the Antennas
Direct DB-8.

> there are a lot of fir 100' to 140' tall

I assume the antenna "looking" through these trees. Is reception
worse when it is windy, or when the trees are wet? If the trees are
the problem, it seems strange that they would only hurt KOIN.

> Unfortunately, WAF precludes outside mounting.

Guess that rules out a 150 foot tower to clear the trees.

Amplifier didn't help, maybe slight worsening on some channels.

I don't see snow on analog 49, but there is some ghosting. The problem is pretty consistent, can't say it's not weather dependent because the weather has been pretty consistently dreary for several months.

Tuner shows signal strength and quality on the digital channels
2 88% good quality
6 66-72 below normal quality
8 83-88 good
10 88 good
12 88 good
32-1 94 good
32-2 94 good
49 83-88 good

Guess I'll try the attenuator next, cheapest and simplest, but if the tuner is right about signal strength, seems unlikely. Unfortunately, looks like I'm going to be crawling around in the attic again. If the attenuator doesn't work will reaim the Crossfire. Then, I guess, I'll try new antennnas. Makes me wonder if I should hook the dish up again but I hate the thought.

Makes me wonder if I should hook the dish up again but I hate the thought.
I fought these same battles with multipath. Finally decided to spend $10/mo for basic cable. Certainly that's a much cheaper alternative than satellite.

Last night as I was watching Survivor the feed showed periodic "streaks" of breakup.

ron

Anyone else seeing video artifacts on 6-1 KOIN? I noticed it Friday night, horizontal blips near the center of the screen and 1/4 down from the top of the screen, from the right side extending across towards the middle of the screen. No noticeable audio dropouts. I thought it was the rain last night but this morning I'm still seeing it. Pops up randomly every few seconds. Right at the moment during the NCAA game.

Thanks for the suggestion. The crossfire I'm using is a YAGI, seems to have a decent reputation. Unfortunately, WAF precludes outside mounting. Outside might help but height shouldn't matter much, I'm at about 600' elevation but there are a lot of fir 100' to 140' tall between transmitter and house. The odd thing is it's mainly a problem with KOIN, other stations a degree on either side are fine and at same distance are fine. I'm going to try an amplifier next, if that doesn't work will try something like the Radio Shack or the Silver Sensor. New antenna is last, crawling across ceiling rafters and through insulation in the attic is a real pain.
IF WAF IS HOLDING YOU BACK FROM OUTSIDE ANTENNA CHECK TERK FLAT PANEL ANTENNAS. PAINTED GREY THIN FLAT.OUTSIDE AND HIGH AS WAF WILL ALLOW.
IT MATTERS ON UHF! I WAS A MICROWAVE TECH WITH USAF(AFSC 40570) AND WITH LA COUNTY CA BEFORE BECOMING A SUPERVISOR. ALSO OWNED A SAT TV
BUISINESS BACK IN THE DAY OF C BAND 12 FOOT DISHES! GAIN/ELEVATION IS INPORTANT. MOVING THE ANTENNA A FEW FEET(WAVELENGTHS) WILL CHANGE RECEPTION DUE TO CONSTRUCTIVE/ DESTRUCTIVE SIGNAL CHANGES (FRANELL ZONES)

RADIO SHACK U75R IS LESS THAN TWO JACKSON'S(AVAILABLE LOCALLY)
TERK FLAT PANEL LESS THAN FIVE JACKSON'S(SEE VALUE ELECTRONICS SITE)

Anyone else seeing video artifacts on 6-1 KOIN? I noticed it Friday night, horizontal blips near the center of the screen and 1/4 down from the top of the screen, from the right side extending across towards the middle of the screen. No noticeable audio dropouts. I thought it was the rain last night but this morning I'm still seeing it. Pops up randomly every few seconds. Right at the moment during the NCAA game.

I have noticed the same thing. I just got a new cable box DVR Motorola 6416 and was suspicious of it being the problem. Most likely it is the source signal.

Jay

I fought these same battles with multipath. Finally decided to spend $10/mo for basic cable. Certainly that's a much cheaper alternative than satellite.

No cable in my area and HD is a priority.
OTA has as much TV as we want, if we can get it.

IF WAF IS HOLDING YOU BACK FROM OUTSIDE ANTENNA CHECK TERK FLAT PANEL ANTENNAS. PAINTED GREY THIN FLAT.OUTSIDE AND HIGH AS WAF WILL ALLOW.
IT MATTERS ON UHF! I WAS A MICROWAVE TECH WITH USAF(AFSC 40570) AND WITH LA COUNTY CA BEFORE BECOMING A SUPERVISOR. ALSO OWNED A SAT TV
BUISINESS BACK IN THE DAY OF C BAND 12 FOOT DISHES! GAIN/ELEVATION IS INPORTANT. MOVING THE ANTENNA A FEW FEET(WAVELENGTHS) WILL CHANGE RECEPTION DUE TO CONSTRUCTIVE/ DESTRUCTIVE SIGNAL CHANGES (FRANELL ZONES)

RADIO SHACK U75R IS LESS THAN TWO JACKSON'S(AVAILABLE LOCALLY)
TERK FLAT PANEL LESS THAN FIVE JACKSON'S(SEE VALUE ELECTRONICS SITE)

If reaiming the Crossfire doesn't work, will try the RS if their return policy applies to antennas. The local RS has been good to deal with. Outside mount just isn't going to happen.

BLUNTY: I too have noticed this abberation happening last night on their news program and I checked my OTA signal strength a couple of times and it was STRONG at 94-95. Have you e-mailed Channel 6? ;)

No cable in my area and HD is a priority.
OTA has as much TV as we want, if we can get it.

Wow.

If I ever moved to "the country", I'd still want to be close enough to civilization to have high speed Internet. That usually means cable as well. :)

It's remarkable what I (and so many other people) now consider to be "necessities", compared to just one generation ago.

I kinda wish I watched Prison Break now, so I could have caught the test patterns <g>.

But on a serious note, does anyone know how I can actually contact someone at the different stations asking about test pattern broadcasts?

I've tried sending email to all of the local stations, I never received a single response (well KOBP did, but there response was a generic, thank for for your comment).

Surely some broadcast station broadcasts a test pattern? I would think PBS as a public service would at least consider it for a 5-10 minute period sometime during their day (or nite).

If anyone has any contacts, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks
Rick

> Did any others have trouble with KOIN digital signal tonite?
> I had to watch analog the whole evening. signal strength was
> about half normal. I checked other stations and they were all
> fine (a little low - 3-4 percentage pts. - but came in fine).

I don't know about last night, but today KOIN digital is coming in
about as well as normal. Signal strength is currently 86 (of 100),
and has run from 71-86 in the past. The "quality" is running
60-65 (of 100), and has ranged from 40-70 in the past. No dropped
packets in a couple of 1 minute tests. Note that some tuners say
they are reporting signal strength, but are really reporting quality.

> I thought a number of stations were located on same antennae tower.

Yes. From the first article in this thread:

Lee> For antenna aiming, all of the stations are clustered near SW Burnside
Lee> and Skyline. The Sylvan Site (KOIN, KATU, KWBP and KNMT) are the two
Lee> equal height tower furthest east. The Skyline Site (KGW, KOPB and KPXG),
Lee> the tower with a 'forked' antenna mount on the top, is in the center.
Lee> The KPTV and KPDX sites are the two tall towers furthest west.

> Why wouldnt reception problems affect more than just one
> station then?

I'd like to know the answer to that myself. If you are very close to the
towers (say under 2 miles) the direction will be different. In some cases
the frequencies are sufficiently different to have different propagation.
But when the directions are close, and the frequencies are close, I have
to wonder what is going on.

Interference can affect one station significantly and not touch a station
1 channel away. This can be easy to observe on analog, but I haven't
found a way to diagnose interference with digital.

Konrad,

Thanks for info. I'm about 12-13 miles away, so aiming shouldn't be issue. Although I might try adjusting aim. I may try a few things when weather is better. I'm using rooftop ant.

It seems to have cleared up for now, although KGW gave me trouble last nite. I think it was because of the heavy rain. That seems to cause trouble for me.

Thanks
Rick


Rick

i dont know if it was the weather or if lee has done something but i am now getting ch6 in hd ota mind you it still breaks up alot but i can see the channel
i just hope it stays this way or gets better and not worse
btw i never got this channel in hd before

brad
albany

Anyone having sound issues with KGW-HD?

I receive the locals through a Dish 622 receiver using its Over The Air (OTA) tuner. For some reason I'm getting no sound on KGW HD, the KGW sub channels are OK. No problems on any of the other OTA channels although I have a similar situation with UNIHD from Dish. The KGW audio is OK through the HDMI connection - but not the optical connection.

I removed all the other equipment that's normally in the signal paths (video processor, optical splitter, etc) to get down to basics - Dish HDMI connected to the TV and the audio connected to a Yamaha AV receiver using an optical cable. No sound on channel 8. Every other channel is fine. If I connect the audio (using a long optical cable) to a Panasonic AV receiver it works fine - including channel 8.

So, I hooked up a Samsung Off Air tuner to the Yamaha - no channel 8 sound.

I figured that if I checked in here, I would find that others are having the same problem - nope!

I'm running out of ideas! Looks like an issue with the Yamaha AV receiver. Any thoughts?

BTW, I'm also seeing breakups on KOIN.

- Gary

I guess I really didn't have anything useful to add, so nevermind....... :D

Wow.

If I ever moved to "the country", I'd still want to be close enough to civilization to have high speed Internet. That usually means cable as well. :)

It's remarkable what I (and so many other people) now consider to be "necessities", compared to just one generation ago.

Actually, DSL showed up in our area about a year ago. But we still don't have much interest in 100+ TV channels. News, a couple of series, and a few specials, together with two or three Netflix movies a month, pretty much maxes out the time we have for viewing.

Lee:

What's going on with Koin? Hopefully this can be fixed soon. March madness is right around the corner.

Lee:

What's going on with Koin? Hopefully this can be fixed soon. March madness is right around the corner.
Yes indeed, what's going on? The Duke/NC game today was a terrible pixelated mess, with lots of streaking. (At least, it was on cable, and I'm assuming it was the same OTA.)

Yeah, for the past few weeks I've suddenly started getting continuous checksum errors from KOIN, about two to five per minute, just enough to ruin individual packets and be annoying. I haven't had any reception problems with KOIN for well over a year so it's not a seasonal thing. I'm receiving all other stations perfectly, even the CW which has always been a problem for me.

Since Comcast people seem to be seeing the same things, it sounds like these problems are happening at KOIN.

And this has to have started sometime after the Superbowl since I recorded that with no errors at all.

Yes, lots of break-ups and pixelization on KOIN again tonight for me as well. I didn't notice any major dips in signal strength, which was running about 87. They've got problems!

Same here. KOIN is coming in at a steady 85, stronger than other stations that I'm receiving perfectly. I think KOIN is sending us the wrong ones and zeros and these are even getting passed onto the Comcast viewers.

I'm getting horrible picture from KOIN over Dish Network Locals. I recently added the local package and thought it was the culprit (haven't gotten around to reconnecting the OTA antenna). The signal strength is fine.

So it appears that KOIN is just sending out a really sub-standard signal. It's a shame since CBS HD programming tends to be the best looking. The shows are just getting unbearable to watch...

It's a shame since CBS HD programming tends to be the best looking. The shows are just getting unbearable to watch...


Ain't that the truth...best looking but unbearable to watch. :D CBSports is pretty much the only time KOIN is on in our household.

Ain't that the truth...best looking but unbearable to watch. :D CBSports is pretty much the only time KOIN is on in our household.
Letterman, The Unit, and sports.

Sorry to stray a little off topic but,
Does anyone know where you can find (in the Portland area) sound absorbent material that's typically used on HT walls? Like Linacoustic, Owen Corning 703 duct insulation, etc etc.

Thanks

Gary,

Last year I tried in vain to find something locally. A few high end A/V stores have treatments on their walls, but it is for their display. No one stocks anything, but they would order something for you. The samples they all had didn't look great. Then I finally found this site:

http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/products/panels/sound_suede.asp

This stuff is unreal! It looks and feels nice and works great. I wanted something that didn't really look like treatments, but could also pass for art, etc..and add color to the room...and they have lots of choices. I highly recommend them as I was very pleased with their service and their product.

Hope that helps!

Louis

Thanks, Louis.

I think I'll need to assemble my own - too many weird sizes and angles.

Gary,

They do custom work....pretty much anything you need..any size, shape, etc.

L

Does anyone know if the KATU digital sources went down today? Are they particularly susceptible to weather changes like today?

We went to no useable signal about 11 AM today. We are in the Boring/ Sandy area and have just gone to a digital OTA antenna.

Thanks in advance.

Jeff Wolfe

> Does anyone know if the KATU digital sources went down
> today?

Sure looks that way. I'm getting a big goose egg.

Did you guys get KATU back? I can't say how it was yesterday afternoon, but it was up for me when I flipped by it at around 5:30.

KATU was back in time for Lost and KOIN is sending us the correct ones and zeros.

All is well in DTVland once again!

Couple days ago KATU-43 had a very low signal strength, quality was 0,
no packets received at all. Perhaps the transmitter was on, but wasn't
getting any signal? Problems with the new encoder? Thursday they were
up, but the signal was horrid. Today (Friday) they are doing much better,
signal strength is back up to the normal range. Signal quality still isn't
back up to normal, perhaps another day or two of tweaking will fix that.

I've been having some trouble with the audio on KGW during the network feed. The volume gets really low after they come back from commercials, so I turn it up to hear, then the next commercial break blows me out...

I've been having some trouble with the audio on KGW during the network feed. The volume gets really low after they come back from commercials, so I turn it up to hear, then the next commercial break blows me out...
KGW's audio has been messed up for a while now. They used to switch their audio turning off the DD 5.1 flag when the source was only stereo. For some reason they started leaving it flagged to DD continuously, and the audio level between the network feed and the local is huge. I sent an email in about it a week and a half ago and never got any response. Then a few days ago I noticed that they had begun matrixing the non 5.1 feeds. For viewers with PLII receivers like me that at least provides center channel audio again. This is like what KATU has been doing I think. The main thing like you said is they still have the issue with the major difference in audio levels between the different souces. It's giant. If you're in another room and a local commercial come on it sounds like someone turned off the TV.

Good afternoon/evening for local basketball today. Oregon for the PAC10 title in HD coming up, and the two best high school players in the state (and some of the best in the country really) matching up later for the high school championship (sadly SD FSN fuzz-o-vision :().



ron

Oregon did well. :D

Oregon did well. :D^^ King of the understatement :). Up until garbage time that second half was just an unconscious outside shooting display. Let's see if they can keep it up in the big tournament where it really counts.


ron

Speaking of which, I was looking on Titan TV for a possible schedule of games on the sub channels, but I was unable to get anything definite. Lee, would it be possible to get a post with the schedule?

Thanks

You know, I think I remember reading that ALL the games were supposedly going to be produced in HD this year. If that's the case, I wonder what feed options the net will be providing the affiliates then?


ron

2007 NCAA Championship Tournament

KOIN-TV 6 (Analog) Cable Channel 6
KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Comcast channel 706 Clear Creek channel 206
KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Comcast channel 306 Clear Creek channel 226

THURSDAY, MARCH 15, 2007 - 9:00 AM - 9:00 PM
TIP OFF CHANNEL PROGRAMMING
(PT)

9:00 AM ALL Road to Final
9:25 AM 6.2 Boston College (7) - Texas Tech (10)
9:40 AM 6.1 Louisville (6) - Stanford (11)
11:40 AM 6.1 Washington St. (3) - Oral Roberts (14)
11:45 AM 6.2 Georgetown (2) - Belmont (15)
1:55 PM 6.1 Vanderbilt (6) - George Washington (11)
2:00 PM 6.2 Price is Right
3:00 PM 6.2 Dr. Phil
4:00 PM ALL Road to Final Four
4:10 PM 6.2 Ohio State (1) - Central Conn State (16)
4:25 PM 6.1 UCLA (2) - Weber State (15)
6:40 PM 6.2 UNC (1) - E. KY (16)
6:45 PM 6.1 Indiana (7) - Gonzaga (10)


FRIDAY, MARCH 16, 2007 - 9:00 AM - 9:00 PM
TIP OFF CHANNEL PROGRAMMING
(PT)

9:00 AM ALL Road to Final Four
9:15 AM 6.2 UVA (4) - Albany (NY) (13)
9:25 AM 6.1 UNLV (7) - Georgia Tech (10)
11:35 AM 6.1 Notre Dame (6) - Winthrop (11)
11:45 AM 6.2 Tennessee (5) - Long Beach State (12)
1:55 PM ALL Oregon (3) - Miami (OH) (14)
4:00 PM ALL Road to Final Four
4:20 PM 6.1 Arizona (8) - Purdue (9)
4:25 PM 6.2 Texas (4) - New Mexico St (13)
6:30 PM 6.2 Kentucky (8) - Villanova (9)
6:45 PM 6.1 Arkansas (12) - Southern California (5)

Thanks, Lee!!! :)

Earl

Thanks Lee.

I thought that the audio issue...noticed on NBC Late night like Leno, was something that happened on Comcast. I see here that it is an OTA issue as well. It is still BAD as of last night. Great time for Comm'ls to come blasting in!

I know this is for HDTV - but I was wondering if anyone noted a problem with the analog signal from KOIN and KATU. I can get both of their channel digital signals (though KOIN is weak and has been for quite a while), but the analog signal is really coming in very weak. KGW, seems ok. (thought I'd ask here before I started messing with my cabels and/or Antenna.

Thanks
Rick

You know, I think I remember reading that ALL the games were supposedly going to be produced in HD this year. If that's the case, I wonder what feed options the net will be providing the affiliates then?


ron
The Washington State game is on now and ISN'T in HD. That's a disappointing omen.

It's in HD at my house...channel 6-1 OTA. What channel are you watching?

L

They switched over to HD about three minutes after I posted. OK, I'm happy now.

Well, sorta. I'm watching on cable, and the second feed on ch 306 (6.2), seems to be extremely choppy and fluttery. It's almost not watchable. (At least it was when I stopped watching it.)

Well, not to be a broken record, but the Ducks game is starting out in SD. Does anyone know who to call to tell them to throw the switch?

Still SD well into the first half. It's rare to be able to see the Ducks in HD, so this is frustrating!

Appears 6.1 OTA has stopped broadcasting in HD. They're switching between sites that were previously in HD, so it's got to be a local thing.

I called KOIN and spoke to someone in the control room. He said it was CBS's fault. CBS is unable to send a hi-def feed of the ducks game until one of the other games finishes. They finally switched over to HD with about 3 seconds in the first half. I assume it was the Wisconsin game they were waiting for, because Nevada finished several minutes before that.

So all that "every game in HD" might be true, but they apparently have a limit of how many HD feeds can be sent out at any one time.

Even in HD it was only a SD game, could they have tried any harder to lose. :)

Check out this link in regard to NCAA local games in SD/HD:

http://www.mercextra.com/blogs/buzz/2007/03/15/ncaa-tournament-why-we-didnt-get-stanford-in-hdtv-but-the-rest-of-the-country-did/

I called KOIN and spoke to someone in the control room. He said it was CBS's fault. CBS is unable to send a hi-def feed of the ducks game until one of the other games finishes. They finally switched over to HD with about 3 seconds in the first half. I assume it was the Wisconsin game they were waiting for, because Nevada finished several minutes before that.

So all that "every game in HD" might be true, but they apparently have a limit of how many HD feeds can be sent out at any one time.
Duck stations were supposed to get a 'Flex' feed (where they bounce around to different games) following the end of the Notre Dame - Winthrop game and a 'Constant' feed (where it is supposed to stay on one game) following the end of the Long Beach State - Tennessee game. It didn't happen. All we got on either feed was the !@#$%^ Creighton - Nevada game in HD until 30 seconds before half-time.

Sounds like CBS needs to up their capacity somehow to send both of those feeds as HD. HD is here, are you (national networks, not local) ready?

I think I read that they were either in the middle of overhauling their head end facilities now, or that it was planned to happen soon. Either way, it sounded like they figured that by next year they would be able to deliver everything in HD.

So what happens with the Ducks tomorrow Lee? Any guesses?



ron

So what happens with the Ducks tomorrow Lee? Any guesses?

They lose?

:)

Well yes, there is that :p . If they don't play any better than they did yesterday, it could be likely too. Let's hope the Ducks and CBS both do better tomorrow then. :D


ron

So what happens with the Ducks tomorrow Lee? Any guesses?



ron
I'm assuming (hope) that with only eight games on tap each day, instead of sixteen, there will be enough HD bandwidth to go around.

KOIN should have the Oregon game 100% besides a look-in here and there.

The one problem is that during Oregon's time slot, there are FOUR games going on.

Can anyone suggest what I need to check. Middle of last week, I noticed that my analog reception for channel 2 and 6 got really bad (snowy - noisy). But my didgital reception didn't change.

I watch digital HD, but sometimes (often) record analog shows on DVD recorder. In any event BOth KATU and KOIN signal got very snowy. It was a gradual change, KGW still seems ok. And digital signal strength for everything except KOIN is 90+ (KOIN has been in 70's for last few months.

I've checked the connections, and they seem fine.

Any suggestions on what I need to check?

Thanks,
Rick

Where is your antenna? Is it still pointing the same direction as it was when it worked?

Also KOIN and KATU are both lower VHF so that could hint to a problem with your antenna.

Can anyone suggest what I need to check. Middle of last week, I noticed that my analog reception for channel 2 and 6 got really bad (snowy - noisy). But my didgital reception didn't change.

I watch digital HD, but sometimes (often) record analog shows on DVD recorder. In any event BOth KATU and KOIN signal got very snowy. It was a gradual change, KGW still seems ok. And digital signal strength for everything except KOIN is 90+ (KOIN has been in 70's for last few months.

I've checked the connections, and they seem fine.

Any suggestions on what I need to check?

Thanks,
Rick
Has your antenna shifted positions?
Spring has started, is there any new vegetation between you and the towers?


(heh!!, got sidetracked and scowl snuck in on me) :)

Can anyone suggest what I need to check. Middle of last week, I noticed that my analog reception for channel 2 and 6 got really bad (snowy - noisy). But my didgital reception didn't change.

I watch digital HD, but sometimes (often) record analog shows on DVD recorder. In any event BOth KATU and KOIN signal got very snowy. It was a gradual change, KGW still seems ok. And digital signal strength for everything except KOIN is 90+ (KOIN has been in 70's for last few months.

I've checked the connections, and they seem fine.

Any suggestions on what I need to check?
A couple of other things to check for might be

1) Aging / deteriorating electrical contact between the cable and its connectors, especially the outer braid.
2) Aging / deteriorating electrical contact at the antenna.
3) Water (precipitation or condensation) inside the connectors or cable (water is a very effective RF attenuator).
4) Damage to the cable, including sharp bends, kinks, crushing, knicks, or cuts (rodents?).

Is there an amp involved?

Best regards,
Andy

KOIN should have the Oregon game 100% besides a look-in here and there.

The one problem is that during Oregon's time slot, there are FOUR games going on.
Well, it looks like that didn't happen. The HD feed appeared to be the "flex" feed while the SD feed (channel 6) was the "constant" feed. If you wanted to watch the Ducks for most of the second half, you needed to switch to Ch 6. Only at the very end did KOIN switch the HD feed to the SD of the Ducks.

Looks like CBS "screwed" the HD Duck fans again. Although, in a blowout, maybe everybody else was happy that they switched to the ends of other close games?

Well, it looks like that didn't happen. The HD feed appeared to be the "flex" feed while the SD feed (channel 6) was the "constant" feed. If you wanted to watch the Ducks for most of the second half, you needed to switch to Ch 6. Only at the very end did KOIN switch the HD feed to the SD of the Ducks.

Looks like CBS "screwed" the HD Duck fans again. Although, in a blowout, maybe everybody else was happy that they switched to the ends of other close games?

Oregon can definitely complain about being the least covered sweet 16 team this year. Thurs/Fri games should be two at a time, although I'm betting that there will be an early/late game that will be on pretty much by itself, which leaves another time having three games.

Good game Ducks.

Well, it looks like that didn't happen. The HD feed appeared to be the "flex" feed while the SD feed (channel 6) was the "constant" feed. If you wanted to watch the Ducks for most of the second half, you needed to switch to Ch 6. Only at the very end did KOIN switch the HD feed to the SD of the Ducks.

Looks like CBS "screwed" the HD Duck fans again. Although, in a blowout, maybe everybody else was happy that they switched to the ends of other close games?Well, that was somewhat less than outstanding... They definitely screwed me. I set up to record the HD feed so I had no option to switch to SD. And I'll bet that second half exhibition would have been really fun to actually watch too :(.


ron

A couple of other things to check for might be

1) Aging / deteriorating electrical contact between the cable and its connectors, especially the outer braid.
2) Aging / deteriorating electrical contact at the antenna.
3) Water (precipitation or condensation) inside the connectors or cable (water is a very effective RF attenuator).
4) Damage to the cable, including sharp bends, kinks, crushing, knicks, or cuts (rodents?).

Is there an amp involved?

Best regards,
Andy


Andy, earl, and scowl thanks to for responses.

rechecked all inside cables, switched a few and still no help. Went outside and did the same. noticed that the electrical tape strapping the coax to the antenna mast was broke.

Went ionto roof and resecrued, apparently theres managed to get the picture back good, but not sure it's going to stay, my wife said the picture would go in and out as i touched the cable and the antenna. finally got it good and staying good, but I'm not optomistic that it will stay.

The coax I have running from antenna to house must be 15+ years old, and maybe I should just replace it and and re-anchor. I replaced the antenna about 3 years ago, and it looks like it's ok, although I'm not sure about thefitting the coax is attached to. It's some kind of cylindical ceramic fitting with coax connnetor.

In any event, thanks for comments, back ok so far.

Rick

rechecked all inside cables, switched a few and still no help. Went outside and did the same. noticed that the electrical tape strapping the coax to the antenna mast was broke.

Went ionto roof and resecrued, apparently theres managed to get the picture back good, but not sure it's going to stay, my wife said the picture would go in and out as i touched the cable and the antenna. finally got it good and staying good, but I'm not optomistic that it will stay.

The coax I have running from antenna to house must be 15+ years old, and maybe I should just replace it and and re-anchor. I replaced the antenna about 3 years ago, and it looks like it's ok, although I'm not sure about thefitting the coax is attached to. It's some kind of cylindical ceramic fitting with coax connnetor.

If the cable or antenna have been moving around in the wind, then maybe a wire has been fatigued to be point of almost breaking. You might want to check the spade connectors on the balun where it connects to the antenna. Those are usually pretty thin wires that don't hold up well under a lot of flexing.

Best regards,
Andy

> I noticed that my analog reception for channel 2 and 6 got really bad
> (snowy - noisy). But my didgital reception didn't change.

How is reception of KPXG-DT on channel 4?

> my wife said the picture would go in and out as i touched the cable
> and the antenna.

> The coax I have running from antenna to house must be 15+ years old,
> and maybe I should just replace it and and re-anchor. I replaced the
> antenna about 3 years ago, and it looks like it's ok,

I'd suggest replacing the outdoor portion of coax. The RG6 quad-shield
at Lowe's claims to be waterproof. And you might as well replace the
balun while you're at it, unless it is built-in to the antenna.

While you're at it, check the ground. It should hold up better
than the coax, but better safe than sorry.

> although I'm
> not sure about the fitting the coax is attached to. It's some kind
> of cylindical ceramic fitting with coax connnetor.

The balun? A lightening arrester? A preamp? A filter?

> I noticed that my analog reception for channel 2 and 6 got really bad
> (snowy - noisy). But my didgital reception didn't change.

How is reception of KPXG-DT on channel 4?

> my wife said the picture would go in and out as i touched the cable
> and the antenna.

> The coax I have running from antenna to house must be 15+ years old,
> and maybe I should just replace it and and re-anchor. I replaced the
> antenna about 3 years ago, and it looks like it's ok,

I'd suggest replacing the outdoor portion of coax. The RG6 quad-shield
at Lowe's claims to be waterproof. And you might as well replace the
balun while you're at it, unless it is built-in to the antenna.

While you're at it, check the ground. It should hold up better
than the coax, but better safe than sorry.

> although I'm
> not sure about the fitting the coax is attached to. It's some kind
> of cylindical ceramic fitting with coax connnetor.

The balun? A lightening arrester? A preamp? A filter?

KPXG comes in fine now (on 22-1), but not sure if it was when I was having the problems.

I have just about decided to replace the coax outside. I noticed that not only is it old, but comparing it to the coax that DISH ran (I also have Dish Sat at other end of roof), the TV antenna coax is thinner. I think I'll probably run som RG6. (after I figure out what tools I need to put on the terminators and what splitter I need outside (the TV antenna is plit outside with one cable going to lower level and another going to upper level of house.

After doing some more reading, I'm pretty shure the chunky think I was referring to was the balun. I know I dont have a preamp connected.

Thanks,
Rick

Here is the Thursday/Friday schedule. CBS, in addition to 'Flex' and 'Constant' on the SD feeds has added 'Swing' feeds which (in theory) don't cut away as much as the 'Flex', but does cut away unlike the 'Constant' feed (which really cuts away some as well)

This is the first year CBS has had 'Flex' capability on the HD feeds and, like anyone with a new toy, they seem to love over using it. The 'idea' is to give all regions a look at all other regions HD games even if they don't care about them.

Here is what CBS is saying they will have up for HD feeds:

Thursday, March 22

All games coming out of the HP Pavilion in San Jose, CA
San Jose I – Constant, Flex and Swing HD feed
San Jose II – Constant and Flex HD feed

All games coming out of the Alamodome in San Antonio, TX
San Antonio I – Constant and Flex HD feed
San Antonio II – Constant, Flex and Swing HD feed

Friday, March 23

All games coming out of the Edward Jones Dome in St. Louis, MO
St. Louis I – Constant and Flex HD feed
St. Louis II – Constant and Flex HD feed

All games coming out of the Continental Airlines Arena in East Rutherford, NJ
East Rutherford I – Constant, Flex and Swing HD feed
East Rutherford II – Constant, Flex and Swing HD feed

If this holds we should be able to get all of the Oregon game in HD then join the USC game in HD after the Oregon game.


2007 NCAA Championship Tournament

KOIN-TV 6.0 (Analog) Cable Channel 6
KOIN-DT 6.1 (HDTV) Comcast channel 706 Clear Creek channel 206
KOIN-DT 6.2 (SDTV) Comcast channel 306 Clear Creek channel 226

THURSDAY, MARCH 22, 2007 - 4:00 PM - 9:00 PM
TIP OFF CHANNEL PROGRAMMING
(PT)

4:00 PM ALL Road to Final Four
4:10 PM 6.0 (4) Southern Ill. - (1) Kansas [Flex]
4:10 PM 6.1 (4) Southern Ill. - (1) Kansas [Const]
4:27 PM 6.2 (3) Texas A&M - (2) Memphis [Const]
6:40 PM 6.0 (3) Pittsburgh - (2) UCLA [Swing]
6:40 PM 6.1 (3) Pittsburgh - (2) UCLA [Const]
6:57 PM 6.2 (5) Tennessee - (1) Ohio State [Const]


FRIDAY, MARCH 23, 2007 - 4:00 PM - 9:00 PM
TIP OFF CHANNEL PROGRAMMING
(PT)

4:00 PM ALL Road to Final Four
4:10 PM 6.0 (5) Butler - (1) Florida [Flex]
4:10 PM 6.1 (5) Butler - (1) Florida [Const]
4:27 PM 6.2 (6) Vanderbilt - (2) Georgetown [Const]
6:30 PM 6.0 (7) UNLV - (3) Oregon [Const]
6:30 PM 6.1 (7) UNLV - (3) Oregon [Const]
6:57 PM 6.2 (5) USC - (1) UNC [Const]

CBS, in addition to 'Flex' and 'Constant' on the SD feeds has added 'Swing' feeds which (in theory) don't cut away as much as the 'Flex', but does cut away unlike the 'Constant' feed (which really cuts away some as well) :D

Thanks for all the info Lee. You're a pillar of the local HD community. So we should be back to single coverage, non-multicast starting with Saturday's Elite Eight games then?


ron

Yes, thanks much, Lee. And thanks to all the folks in the KOIN control room. Even when I called up the station to complain about the non-HD Oregon feed, they were very polite and sympathetic, despite obviously being frustrated themselves.

:D

Thanks for all the info Lee. You're a pillar of the local HD community. So we should be back to single coverage, non-multicast starting with Saturday's Elite Eight games then?


ron


In theory yes, but some games will probably overlap. No two games will be scheduled at the same time starting Saturday onward.

> Couple days ago KATU-43 had a very low signal strength, quality was 0,
> no packets received at all. Perhaps the transmitter was on, but wasn't
> getting any signal? Problems with the new encoder? Thursday they were
> up, but the signal was horrid. Today (Friday) they are doing much better,
> signal strength is back up to the normal range. Signal quality still isn't
> back up to normal, perhaps another day or two of tweaking will fix that.

Well, eleven days later, KATU digital hasn't gotten any better. Signal quality
is still down at 0-30%, resulting in lots of reception problems. KATU analog
is okay.

Is something still broken at the station? Is there any hope for improvement?

It sounds like you have reception problems. I've noticed no issues with KATU at all...

Then again, I just remembered I'm now watching via Comcast. So I suppose they could be having some issues actually, since I don't know how Comcast acquires their feed from KATU... I still think it's reception though. You would have seen major squawking here if they were having problems on the order you describe I'd think.



ron