I recoreded the Seahawks game just in case there was a mistake in the listing.

When I saw it was SD (and bad SD at that), it went poof.

I can't believe anyone could watch that crap.

Not only was that game painful to look at because it was in really cruddy quality SD, it was painful to watch because the Seahawks were in really cruddy rookie mode. That was an awful game, plus it seemed like the refs were calling the 'hawks for every little tiny violation. And this new "Delay of Game" violation for spiking the ball after a reception, oh my goodness, I've seen a few games now where the refs have been enforcing this on things that don't even resemble a celebratory spike.

Hello all,

I live in Lair Hill in SW. Antenna Web puts me 3 miles from the transmitters, with an antenna rotation of 279 degrees. I've tried to get HD signals with a cheap, indoor antenna from Radio Shack and a Silver Sensor. I can't pick up a single one. I was thinking of picking up the Terrestial Diginal DB2 antenna, as I have heard it's the best indoor antenna around, but I'm wondering if I'm ever going to get a signal indoors. I'm not allowed to put an antenna on the roof of my building, so I'm at a loss for trying to get OTA signals. Any help you can give is much appreciated.

Hello all,

I live in Lair Hill in SW. Antenna Web puts me 3 miles from the transmitters, with an antenna rotation of 279 degrees. I've tried to get HD signals with a cheap, indoor antenna from Radio Shack and a Silver Sensor. I can't pick up a single one. I was thinking of picking up the Terrestial Diginal DB2 antenna, as I have heard it's the best indoor antenna around, but I'm wondering if I'm ever going to get a signal indoors. I'm not allowed to put an antenna on the roof of my building, so I'm at a loss for trying to get OTA signals. Any help you can give is much appreciated.


You should be able to pick up some or all of the channels only 3 miles from the towers. I think something is wrong. I can pick up all with a Silver Sensor in my house between Battle Ground and La Center Wa. What are you trying to pick up these signals with? HDTV? HD Receiver? PC Card?

Steve

You should be able to pick up some or all of the channels only 3 miles from the towers. I think something is wrong. I can pick up all with a Silver Sensor in my house between Battle Ground and La Center Wa. What are you trying to pick up these signals with? HDTV? HD Receiver? PC Card?

Steve

Thanks, Steve. I have a Samsung LN-S2641D television with a built-in ATSC tuner. There are two RF jacks, one for antenna reception and one for cable. I have the Silver Sensor plugged into the antenna jack, and it picks up 14 stations, all analog. None in the VHF range is crystal clear, but, just to taunt me, the television gets a crystal clear signal from Telemundo. If I try to manually enter the digital channels, like 6-1, 12-1, etc., nothing happens (the analog signal continues to be shown). Thus, I have always assumed that none of the digital signals is strong enough to be picked up.

Matt

Matt

Have you tried pointing the Silver Sensor in the direction of the towers and let the TV do an automatic channel search for the ATSC turner? If all is working proper it should find at least a few digital channels (40, 43, 46 etc.) You might try another anntena coax cable in case the one you have is bad.

Steve

ug man, I’m dying here lol. Anyone know any reputable place to acquire the Integra 9.8 in our area?

Have you tried Chelsea audio/video? They deal in high end gear.

Thanks, Steve. I have a Samsung LN-S2641D television with a built-in ATSC tuner. There are two RF jacks, one for antenna reception and one for cable. I have the Silver Sensor plugged into the antenna jack, and it picks up 14 stations, all analog. None in the VHF range is crystal clear, but, just to taunt me, the television gets a crystal clear signal from Telemundo. If I try to manually enter the digital channels, like 6-1, 12-1, etc., nothing happens (the analog signal continues to be shown). Thus, I have always assumed that none of the digital signals is strong enough to be picked up.
Matt

The RF jack labeled "Antenna" may be the NTSC analog input. Try the one labeled "Cable". That may be the ATSC one.

Matt,

According to the Samsung manual, the ATSC tuner is connected to the Antenna jack, not the cable input. You also have a signal level meter with that set to read out the strength of the digital signals. And you should easily get reception, as I'm using a TerK indoor antenna in Sherwood and getting good reception.

Have you made sure in the channel lists that you have not set the TV to skip the digital channels?? Or else I suppose it's possible the ATSC tuner is defective.

Another problem Matt has is he lives in Lair Hill and may be out of line of sight of the HDTV towers. Lair Hill has Council Crest in between him and the towers. Council Crest has the huge Radio & VHF tower on top but the HDTV towers are on the top of the Forest Park ridge.

Matt,

According to the Samsung manual, the ATSC tuner is connected to the Antenna jack, not the cable input. You also have a signal level meter with that set to read out the strength of the digital signals. And you should easily get reception, as I'm using a TerK indoor antenna in Sherwood and getting good reception.

Have you made sure in the channel lists that you have not set the TV to skip the digital channels?? Or else I suppose it's possible the ATSC tuner is defective.

Alan, I don't see anywhere in my setup options the ability to turn on or off digital channel scanning. I assume that even if the option is there, and I somehow am skipping the digital channels, I should still be able to manually enter them. I still receive just white noise.

Another problem Matt has is he lives in Lair Hill and may be out of line of sight of the HDTV towers. Lair Hill has Council Crest in between him and the towers. Council Crest has the huge Radio & VHF tower on top but the HDTV towers are on the top of the Forest Park ridge.

Frederick, I was wondering if this might be the ultimate problem. Does this essentially mean I would need my antenna to be several feet above my room to have a chance of picking up any stations, or does it mean I simply need a stronger antenna to pull in a signal? It's disappointing that I'm so close to the radio tower and yet may never be able to pull in the stations.

Matt

You might check with any house around you that you see with a rooftop antenna. That big antenna on the top of Council Crest is for NTSC analog signals only. All of the ATSC HD stations are clustered near SW Burnside and Skyline. The Sylvan Site (KOIN, KATU, KRCW and KNMT) are the two equal height tower furthest east. The Skyline Site (KGW, KOPB and KPXG), the tower with a 'forked' antenna mount on the top, is in the center. The KPTV and KPDX sites are the two tall towers furthest west.

The really BIG tripod tower on Council Crest, actually its Healy Heights, only has FM stations on it. No TV at all.

Historical Trivia: Just north of that site is the original site that KGW-TV started broadcasting from. It was later given to OPB for use as their original TV and FM site. It is now used by OPB only as a relay site to send their programming around the state.

The smaller tripod tower that actually is in Council Crest Park is only used by government communications, primarily the City of Portland. (More historical trivia: this tower was originally used by KPTV when it was UHF channel 27. When they merged with KOLR and moved to channel 12 the channel 27 antenna was removed from the top leaving a non-FAA standard paint and lighting scheme. The city is planning to replace this tower in the near future.)

All TV, analog and digital, is clustered in the Skyline/Barnes/Burnside area.

I have a question about antenna placement. I’m in Beaverton at roughly 185th and Baseline. The towers are pretty much due east from me and about 6 miles from my house. My TV is on the first story in the SE corner. And I have one of those Silver Sensor antennas. A few channels come in really strong. A few don’t come in at all, at least not enough to tune. And the rest are flaky and I have mess with the antenna constantly.

It occurred to me tonight that if I could move the antenna about 5’ to the south, it would be missing the big house next door and looking directly at the towers. Of course that also puts it outside. We have a covered patio out back with our D* dish attached to it and are getting upgraded to HD service on Monday. I’ll be hooking the antenna up to the DVR so I can finally record HD. I thought if I could move the antenna out there, it should work great. I did a trial run tonight with it sitting on the ground and everything was coming in just great. I’m going to see if the installer would be willing to run a line for the antenna while he’s doing all the other lines.

So my question is, is it safe to put my “indoor” antenna outside like that? I was thinking of mounting it under the patio roof so it would be hidden and protected from the majority of the bad weather. It would be surrounded on 4 sides by 2x6s and it’s a fiberglass roof. I’d hate to spend money for no good reason on a new “outdoor” antenna, but of course I don’t want to do anything dangerous either. Any thoughts?

So my question is, is it safe to put my “indoor” antenna outside like that? I was thinking of mounting it under the patio roof so it would be hidden and protected from the majority of the bad weather. It would be surrounded on 4 sides by 2x6s and it’s a fiberglass roof. I’d hate to spend money for no good reason on a new “outdoor” antenna, but of course I don’t want to do anything dangerous either. Any thoughts?

Generally it's "safe" to put an indoor antenna out in weather UNLESS it has a built in powered amplifier, and even then it's really not going to be likely to cause any damage. HOWEVER, it's probably not real smart as indoor antennas are going to rust, are not built to withstand wind and may even have wiring that will corrode and fail. Outdoor smaller antennas are quite cheap - even new.


Also you may want to consider using diplexers which allow you to mix the antenna feed and the satellite dish signal on a single cable. You'd need two of them, one at the dish end and one at the receiver end.

Generally it's "safe" to put an indoor antenna out in weather UNLESS it has a built in powered amplifier, and even then it's really not going to be likely to cause any damage. HOWEVER, it's probably not real smart as indoor antennas are going to rust, are not built to withstand wind and may even have wiring that will corrode and fail. Outdoor smaller antennas are quite cheap - even new.

It's not powered. I've done some dumb things, but not that dumb. :D

I'm not worried about wind as I plan to remove the antenna from the base which makes it essentially flat and mount it where it will be out of the wind.

I'd already thought of the rust/corrosion issue. But I figure it's not doing me any good now. So what do I have to loose? Assuming it doesn't stand up too well to the elements, I'll just replace it when the time comes. But if I buy an outdoor antenna now, this one will just sit around and collect dust since I have no other use for it. So I see no reason not to get some good from it.

Also you may want to consider using diplexers which allow you to mix the antenna feed and the satellite dish signal on a single cable. You'd need two of them, one at the dish end and one at the receiver end.

That's a great idea. Should I try to pick some up over the weekend or is that something the D* installer should be able to hook me up with? Is one diplexer as good as the next or is there a particular brand I should try to get?

Home Depot and Lowes have Diplexers, and they seem fine. About $5-7 each though. I'm sure cheaper ones are available on the net but shipping will probably be too much. Maybe Frys has them cheaper. As for quality, it's basically a capacitor and/or a choke, and a splitter so it shouldn't be something where brand should matter.

Several people over at DBSTalk claim that you can't diplex the line with the new MPEG-4 HD channels. So I guess I'm back to 3 lines for now. :(

Still, if he needs to replace any lines, it shouldn't be too much effort to run a third.

The best solution of course is to figure out why I can't get decent signals only 6 miles from the towers without putting the antenna outside. But I'm out of ideas on that one.

I live at Aurora and get NBC Nightly News at 6:30 p.m. via Willamette Broadband Cable. Since they started broadcasting in HD NBC News has been pretty good. However lately I don't think it is as good as it was. Has anyone else noticed this? I scheduled a visit with the ophthalmologist for next week just in case it is my eyes.

Jay

Initially the anchor camera didn't have much if any diffusion on it and was pretty sharp. Recently they've put some soft filters on it so the anchor looks about as blurry as before in SD. There was a thread on it in the HDTV Programming forum.

Thanks. I am glad it was not my eyes or the TV. However I am disappointed. I actually chose NBC over the other channels because of the HD. I guess I can give ABC another try.

Jay

Several people over at DBSTalk claim that you can't diplex the line with the new MPEG-4 HD channels. So I guess I'm back to 3 lines for now. :(

I can confirm what they're saying at DBSTalk. With the old DirecTV setup the satellite frequencies started at about 950 MHz. So you could diplex OTA below that. But with the new setup DirecTV (in addition to keeping the frequencies starting at 950 MHz) is using additional frequencies both below and above 950 MHz. If you diplex you will wipe out some signals from the new 99 and 103 satellites.

ok I'm getting tired of this...

why is koin the only station I can not receive. I get anywhere between 40-80%, it bounces all over the place, and sometimes I get 0%

Every single other station I can get perfectly with 90-100%.

I have an ATI HDTV Wonder using Beyond TV. I'm using the stock antenna that cames with the tuner, but I replaced the coax cable with high grade 12FT one, and I don't use the base, I have it hung on a wall, right where the ceiling and wall meet.

Since around the start of summer if I tweak the antenna placement for koin, all other channels are unwatchable or almost unwatchable

Bouncing signal quality like that often means the signal is too strong and the receiver is being overloaded by it. If you're getting the others at a strong 90%-100%, that's likely that KOIN is too strong. Try one of those attenuators from Radio Shack.

This is driving me CRAZY! Crazy enough to dig out my AVS password so I can login and post.. :p

last night was a busy night for recordings, and for the 8pm - 9pm hour last night, I had (3) active tuners (out of 5). I got 1 perfect recording, 1 missing 48 minutes and one missing 59+ minutes out of a possible 60. :(


Here's my setup:
-- distance: 12.9 miles from towers, rotten line of sight.
-- recommended antenna: yellow UHF
-- antenna: channelmaster CM 4228
-- cable run: 30 ft, quad shielded cable
-- splitter: gold 4 way splitter
-- tuners: (4) ATSC PCI card tuners


I've been running MythTV for 5+ years, with hundreds of recordings successfully, but something about my current setup is giving me great grief. I thought I was ready for the fall season, since I'd gotten a bunch of clean recordings in the last couple weeks, but last night was hell.

Last night I recorded three things between 8pm and 9pm

ABC: dancing with the stars --- quality was so bad I got (6) seconds of recording
NBC: chuck - flawless recording -- zero issues, 60:00 minutes recorded
FOX: prison break - worthless recording -- 12:45 minutes recorded

If I pull up the signal strength of FOX, for example, it's all over the board, even this morning, like so:


[root@backend2 ~]# azap -a0 fox
using '/dev/dvb/adapter0/frontend0' and '/dev/dvb/adapter0/demux0'
tuning to 569028615 Hz
video pid 0x0031, audio pid 0x0034
status 00 | signal edc0 | snr a122 | ber 00000918 | unc 00000045 |
status 00 | signal edc0 | snr a122 | ber 00000918 | unc 00000045 |
status 1f | signal c150 | snr 5da6 | ber 00007ff8 | unc 00000030 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status 1f | signal c740 | snr 6158 | ber 00007ff8 | unc 00000019 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status 00 | signal f520 | snr ca92 | ber 00000568 | unc 00000019 |
status 00 | signal fff0 | snr ea60 | ber 00000000 | unc 00000000 |
status 00 | signal fff0 | snr ea60 | ber 00000000 | unc 00000000 |
status 00 | signal edc0 | snr a122 | ber 00000918 | unc 00000045 |


ABC on the other hand, which was pure horsepucky last night, is flawless this morning:

[root@backend2 ~]# azap -a0 abc
using '/dev/dvb/adapter0/frontend0' and '/dev/dvb/adapter0/demux0'
tuning to 647028615 Hz
video pid 0x0031, audio pid 0x0034
status 00 | signal edc0 | snr a122 | ber 00000918 | unc 00000045 |
status 1f | signal f790 | snr d27a | ber 00000058 | unc 00000000 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status 1f | signal f7b0 | snr d306 | ber 00000000 | unc 00000000 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status 1f | signal f790 | snr d160 | ber 00000000 | unc 00000000 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status 1f | signal f7c0 | snr d1ec | ber 00000000 | unc 00000000 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status 1f | signal f800 | snr d18e | ber 00000000 | unc 00000000 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status 1f | signal f6e0 | snr d016 | ber 00000000 | unc 00000000 | FE_HAS_LOCK
status 1f | signal f780 | snr d480 | ber 00000000 | unc 00000000 | FE_HAS_LOCK


I have channels that are effectively 98% (f7xx - f8xx out of ffff possible) and from the same tuner, same recorder, channels that are useless.

Here's my channel summary as of this morning.


pbsHD - rock solid - fb - fc signal, 0% ber, 0% unc
cbsHD - rock solid - fa - fb signal, 0% ber, 0% unc
nbcHD - decent - 95 - a5 signal, 0% ber, 5%+ unc
abcHD - rock solid - f6 - f7 signal, 0% ber, 0% unc
foxHD - iffy atm - c5 - d9 signal, constant ber, 1-2% unc
upnHD - iffy - aa - ed signal, constant ber, 5%+ unc


Before I go crazy ripping all my cabling, antenna, etc, apart, is anyone aware of any tower side, or stream problems last night with either ABC or FOX last night [9/24/07]?

Any other help anyone can offer? My WAP (wife approval rating) took a hit last night...

Are your signal strengths similar with all three boards? My system has an HD-3000 and an HD-5500 and sometimes I can cause what looks like bad reception by loading the system with a lot of interrupts. Did you see any buffer overruns in /var/log/messages? Yes, this is getting Linux-specific, folks.

Minor correction; those shows were on between 8-9pm (DwtS to 9:30). Also, you might want to update your location. ;) EDIT: In fact, that begs the question… is this your first season in Portland? If so, be prepared for a massive wash of multipath as the leaves get wetter and start falling… I doubt you had nearly as much trouble OTA in Phoenix as you will here, especially with - as you put it - "rotten line of sight." I've had nothing-but my entire life. :(

For what little value this may be to you, I recorded the entire NBC lineup for the evening - as well as K-Ville on Fox at 9pm - from Comcast via a TiVo Series 3, and witnessed no such issues (though I have yet to watch Heroes or K-Ville). While that doesn't rule out OTA issues (or quad-ATSC MythTV issues… have fun with that), it should at least rule out bitstream issues during that time… but then you were recording an hour earlier, so who knows.

Of course I wouldn't touch ABC with a 10' pole while they're airing DwtS (or the craptastic Bachelor), so I'm at liberty to blame it on that. :D

Are your signal strengths similar with all three boards? My system has an HD-3000 and an HD-5500 and sometimes I can cause what looks like bad reception by loading the system with a lot of interrupts. Did you see any buffer overruns in /var/log/messages? Yes, this is getting Linux-specific, folks.

No, but would have been a good thought. /var/log/messages empty, mythbackend.log had no complaints either.

Tyan serverworks chipset motherboard, 3ware 9500 card in PCI-X slot, 3 PCI tuner cards in 32-bit slots, dual procs, 1gig ram.

At one point in the past I had 3 HD 2 non-HD all going at the same time, with zero IO issues, so I don't suspect OS issues. Also, my signal levels are close (different generations of cards) on each card. What is consistant is that if FOX for example, is rotten on one card, it's rotten on all of them.

-------------UPDATE-------------

Found the issue!

While I could probably hold a contest, and stump the experts on the cause.. I found the issue last night.. Got medival..

Sat with the signal display up on FOX, on my weakest (oldest) tuner, and was getting ZERO lock. PBS was fine, but FOX had zero lock.

Cut off both ends of the "PREMADE" cable, put new connectors on, and BINGO!!! BINGO!!!

F7 level signal, FE_HAS_LOCK rock solid. Any channel, rock solid. !!!!

I would have never suspected the cable. It was less than 12 months old, high quality, quad-shielded, pre-made cable. (Got it from the cable guy...) I would have never suspected the cable would affect one channel and not another. Weird, strange, and odd.

Anyway, hope this helps someone else having trouble.





(Edit: you got questions.. we got answers)

MEJ - I live around 170 and Baseline and had the same problems as you (first story tv in SW corner, buildings in the way)... I was able to remedy them with a powered antennae from best buy. It is an RCA unit. Seems to work perfect - where as I used to move my unpowered antennae around to get signal.

Don't underestimate a powered antennae!


I have a question about antenna placement. I’m in Beaverton at roughly 185th and Baseline. The towers are pretty much due east from me and about 6 miles from my house. My TV is on the first story in the SE corner. And I have one of those Silver Sensor antennas. A few channels come in really strong. A few don’t come in at all, at least not enough to tune. And the rest are flaky and I have mess with the antenna constantly.

I've been digging around for a few days trying to identify whether or not I'll be able to receive Portland HD OTA from Newberg. Specifically, about a half mile north of the Shell station / Dutch Bros on 99W.

My concern is that Chahalem Mt. blocks our view (and reception?) of the Skyline /Sylvan towers.

Anyone know anyone getting OTA from that area? Or know how I can determine if reception is possible?

Oops, guess I should introduce myself ;)

My wife and I just made the jump (after fighting it for a few years) to an HD TV. Specifically, we bought a 46" Samsung LCD.

What we don't have is an HD signal. Long story, but the short answer is, we aren't willing to give up our integrated DirecTV TiVo (though I'm looking into upgrading to a used DirecTV HD TiVo via eBay.) So, for now we'd just be happy to have the main local stations in HD (NBC, CBS, and Fox are the ones we care about.)

I've checked antennaweb and determined distances, direction, etc. Everything looks good. Except, of course, for the big mountain between us and SW Portland.

Anyway - I'm sure I'll spend more time on here now that we have our TV. Still going to need (at some point) HD sat or cable service, an HD-DVD or Blue-ray (or both..) player, new receiver and speakers.....

Hempels, I can not help you with the OTA issue but I recently DirecTV HD DVR and have no problems with it. In fact it utilizes the language and menus that my non HD TiVo DVR uses.

ESPN "Game of the week" on ABC. But no HD.

One of these years will be "the year of HD". But apparently not the year 2007.

ESPN "Game of the week" on ABC. But no HD.

Hmmm, USC vs. Washington looks awfully HD to me.

Hmmm, USC vs. Washington looks awfully HD to me.

I meant California @ Oregon, the game that KGW claimed was ESPN game of the week. Certainly of more significance to local viewers.

Do you mean KATU???? When did they claim is was the ESPN game of the week? All I heard about was #1 USC playing in Seattle.

Did you fail to notice that "College Game Day" was being broadcast live from Eugene, Oregon? They had all the trailers and cameras to show all the pregame stuff in HD but when game time arrived... No HD.

Do you mean KATU???? When did they claim is was the ESPN game of the week? All I heard about was #1 USC playing in Seattle.
Yes I meant the game on KATU. ABC no longer does sports, it's all ESPN (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESPN_on_ABC). The game was on ABC but labelled ESPN at the top of the screen.

And as for "ESPN game of the week", I don't watch ESPN (or KATU news) enough to know if they even use that phrase. The Friday 11 PM KGW newscast used that phrase (if I'm remembering correctly).

Did you fail to notice that "College Game Day" was being broadcast live from Eugene, Oregon? They had all the trailers and cameras to show all the pregame stuff in HD but when game time arrived... No HD.
The game was broadcast live from Eugene but there were other games being broadcast in HD around the country at the same time.

What we don't have is an HD signal. Long story, but the short answer is, we aren't willing to give up our integrated DirecTV TiVo (though I'm looking into upgrading to a used DirecTV HD TiVo via eBay.) So, for now we'd just be happy to have the main local stations in HD (NBC, CBS, and Fox are the ones we care about.)

You can keep your TiVo and still have the HR20-DVR from DirecTV. I have an HR10 TiVo DVR hooked up to my HDTV by HDMI and an HR20 DVR hooked up by component cables. I got the HR20 over a year ago before it had OTA so I used the HR10 for OTA. The monthly fee for the extra box is only $4.99 and $9.99 for the HD programing.
You'll need to upgrade to the 5LNB dish but that's free from DirecTV.
Here in Portland the only locals they have by satellite are ABC, NBC & Fox in HD. CBS Channel 6 hasn't allowed DirecTV to carry their signal yet.

Scowl, I am not sure that you are understanding that the "College Game Day" moved the pregame day productions to Eugene and boradcast the nation wide game day predictions, pregmae, etc. show in HD from Eugene, not just Duck/Cal pregame show. So they had all the HD equipment in Eugene but did not use it to broadcast the game in HD.

Not only can you get CBS over the air via HD, but not on DirectTV in HD, you can also get MyTV (KPDX 49) in HD over the air, but not on Comcast Cable.

Scowl, I am not sure that you are understanding that the "College Game Day" moved the pregame day productions to Eugene and boradcast the nation wide game day predictions, pregmae, etc. show in HD from Eugene, not just Duck/Cal pregame show. So they had all the HD equipment in Eugene but did not use it to broadcast the game in HD.
But you can't use the HD equipment if you don't have a satellite feed for it. Once the game started, I'm sure they switched the HD feed they were using to another game.

I was a photographer for one of the pregame events at the first Seahawks preseason game. I peeked into the truck and saw the game was produced entirely in HD. I asked a TV guy why the game wasn't broadcast in HD and he said "No uplink feed for it". I think this is pretty common.

Not only can you get CBS over the air via HD, but not on DirectTV in HD
The problem here in Portland is that CBS channel 6 won't agree to allow DirecTV to carry their signal. They got agreements with channel 8 & 12 quickly. Then it took about 6 months to get ABC channel 2 to agree.
Maybe the fact that Montecito sold the station has something to do with it. On July 24, 2007, Montecito announced the sale of all of its stations (KOIN in Portland, OR, plus KHON-TV in Honolulu and its satellites, KSNW in Wichita and its satellites, and KSNT in Topeka) to New Vision Television.

Comcast didn't carry KOIN in HD for several months after Comcast began offering HD. They wanted to be paid extra for their HD signal. At some point in time someone caved, and CBS was finally in HD on Comcast here in Oregon.

Now I don't need Comcast's HD feed though, I get CBS in HD for free....and I also get a few other stations Comcast doesn't have, including an HD version of channel 49 MyNet TV. I love the high quality of digital over the air.

On July 24, 2007, Montecito announced the sale of all of its stations (KOIN in Portland, OR, plus KHON-TV in Honolulu and its satellites, KSNW in Wichita and its satellites, and KSNT in Topeka) to New Vision Television.Wow, not even 2 years after Emmis sold them… that didn't last long. So what's NVTV's take on carriage agreements? Anyone?

Comcast didn't carry KOIN in HD for several months after Comcast began offering HD. They wanted to be paid extra for their HD signal. At some point in time someone caved, and CBS was finally in HD on Comcast here in Oregon.That would be Emmis wanting to be paid, and their sale of the station would be the cave.

Anyone notice surround audio problems on NBC last night (10/4) with "30 Rock", "The Office", etc?

It seems the audio (center) and surround were way out of balance. We had to crank up the volume to hear the dialog.

Of course, the commercials were fine. :)

Anyone notice surround audio problems on NBC last night (10/4) with "30 Rock", "The Office", etc?

It seems the audio (center) and surround were way out of balance. We had to crank up the volume to hear the dialog.

Of course, the commercials were fine. :)Ha! I just happened to flip in the the local thread to see if anybody else had experienced this too :). When I turned over to watch ER on KGW after CSI all I could hear was the bedpans and gurneys's clanging and banging in the surrounds :D. I had to turn my center channel all the way up to get decent dialog volume.


ron

I mentioned in the Office thread that the sound was way below the commercials and the center was even lower. No one dittoed that statement so maybe it was a KGW issue.

Has anyone else noticed quick break ups on KOIN? These aren't reception problems. I'm not getting any MPEG or ATSC errors so this is stuff KOIN is sending to me.

For example on Cold Case:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/koinbu.jpg

I think they're coming from their network feed since they always clear up in less than a second while ATSC errors can often take longer than a second (I think ATSC sends an I-frame every second or so).

Anyone notice surround audio problems on NBC last night (10/4) with "30 Rock", "The Office", etc?

It seems the audio (center) and surround were way out of balance. We had to crank up the volume to hear the dialog.

Of course, the commercials were fine. :)



Yep, but it didn't affect Earl as that was crystal clear. Something happened between 8:29 and 8:30. I thought it was something that was supposed to be funny on 30 Rock, but then it kept going and going.

After ER was over I just left the news on and went to get ready for bed. When I came back out to check the weather Dave Salesky's audio went way up and way down a couple times. I figured it was just his mike but now I wonder if it may have been related to the other issue and they were trying to "dial it back in". It did remind me to turn the center back down though ;).


ron

Anyone know anyone getting OTA from that area? Or know how I can determine if reception is possible?
Well, great news!

Got my CM 4221 delivered on Tuesday and did a quick test. My TV reported full signal strength from KGW-HD. :cool:

So now I have my antenna mounted and coax run through the attic, down the wall, to a port behind the TV. I also managed to win an HR10-250 (http://www.pcworld.com/product/specs/prtprdid,2950017/hr10250_200_hour_directv_dvr_w_tivo.html) off ebay for a pretty reasonable $130 (after shipping) that I should be getting shortly. In the meantime, we're definitely enjoying in HD the few shows we can tolerate to watch with commercials...

Yep, but it didn't affect Earl as that was crystal clear. Something happened between 8:29 and 8:30. I thought it was something that was supposed to be funny on 30 Rock, but then it kept going and going.

It seemed like the audio started fine on 30 Rock but about 10 minutes into it the center channel dropped to almost nothing but the other channels stayed the same. When the Office started, all the channels were almost as low as the center channel had been.

Thank goodness nothing happened to the audio in the commercials!

Here in Portland the only locals they have by satellite are ABC, NBC & Fox in HD. CBS Channel 6 hasn't allowed DirecTV to carry their signal yet.
I don't watch enough of channel 49 to care. However I'm astonished that DirecTV touts HD but won't even carry PBS in HD. Morons! As to the squabbling with KOIN, that history goes back a LONG time. I use the $10/mo Comcast service for my HD. That gets me everything but 49.

Sadly, 32.2 is gone. The Tube Music Network has ceased operations.

I didn't really watch Tube much, but I liked to check it out from time to time. It seemed like they played a lot of videos from the 80's and early 90's which I liked. Sad to see it's gone.

Well, great news!

Got my CM 4221 delivered on Tuesday and did a quick test. My TV reported full signal strength from KGW-HD. :cool:

So now I have my antenna mounted and coax run through the attic, down the wall, to a port behind the TV. I also managed to win an HR10-250 (http://www.pcworld.com/product/specs/prtprdid,2950017/hr10250_200_hour_directv_dvr_w_tivo.html) off ebay for a pretty reasonable $130 (after shipping) that I should be getting shortly. In the meantime, we're definitely enjoying in HD the few shows we can tolerate to watch with commercials...

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that HR10 isn't going to do you much good if you want HD from DirectTV. Their new sats (and all the new HD channels) use MPEG4 compression, and it isn't supported by the HR10. That's why they're so cheap. You need the new HR20.

that HR10 isn't going to do you much good if you want HD from DirectTV
I don't - that's the whole point.

Actually, I wouldn't mind having HD from DirecTV, but I'm not willing to give up TiVo to get it. So, if they can't work out an interoperability agreement then DirecTV can't have my $10/mo. Thanks to OTA - it appears it won't hurt me one bit (although as more satellite channels go HD, I'm sure my glib satisfaction will dwindle.)

At some point, I suspect I'll have to go to Comcast so I can have more HD access and TiVo. But for now I'll be content with DirecTV SD, OTA HD, and a retired HR10 bringing them together in harmony.

I live in Beaverton and I have used a "Zenith Silver Sensor" to get ALL of OUR Local Digital/HD signals for FREE [OTA]. They come in Crystal Clear.
Right now I have Comcast on a Dish BuyOUT program so I don't have to use my OTA antenna.....but highly recommend to anyone with a bulit in Tuner.

BEST of Luck and ENJOY!;)

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that HR10 isn't going to do you much good if you want HD from DirectTV. Their new sats (and all the new HD channels) use MPEG4 compression, and it isn't supported by the HR10. That's why they're so cheap. You need the new HR20.

While the HR10 won't get the new HD feeds it DOES receive the HD on channels 70-79 which includes HDnet, DiscoveryHD, and even HBO and Showtime if you subscribe to them, plus it integrates the OTA stuff. We've got two of the HR10's and they do fine. Plus if you call customer retention at DirecTV it's supposed to be easy to get them to send you HR20's to replace your HR10's. Even free if you push it a bit.

Of course the HR10 has one of the world's poorest OTA receivers, but that's another story.

It seemed like the audio started fine on 30 Rock but about 10 minutes into it the center channel dropped to almost nothing but the other channels stayed the same. When the Office started, all the channels were almost as low as the center channel had been.

Thank goodness nothing happened to the audio in the commercials!

Yeah, I had the same problems with audio during 30 Rock. Parts of it were fine, but something kept making my Denon go wacky and switch in/out of Dolby Digital. The commercials did seem fine (of course) but the center channel was way, way too low after the first few minutes. I had the same problems with The Office as well. :confused:

Is there a place to call/e-mail when audio issues like this crop up? My problem is I watch most everything on my Media Center box the next day or later that night, so I never would have a chance to call in live to correct it.

-Dan

P.S. I hope it doesn't happen again tonight! Thursday night on NBC is my favorite of the week with 30 Rock, My Name is Earl and The Office all great shows. I was driving my wife crazy trying to fix the audio problems in the receiver last week.

-Dan

P.S. I hope it doesn't happen again tonight! Thursday night on NBC is my favorite of the week with 30 Rock, My Name is Earl and The Office all great shows. I was driving my wife crazy trying to fix the audio problems in the receiver last week.

-Dan

I have comcast HD and the center channel dropped out for Bionic Women last night on NBC.

P.S. I hope it doesn't happen again tonight! Thursday night on NBC is my favorite of the week with 30 Rock, My Name is Earl and The Office all great shows. I was driving my wife crazy trying to fix the audio problems in the receiver last week.

-Dan

If it's any consolation my HD Tivo seemed to have the same issues the last two weeks with The Office. No broken picture but I think the audio was causing the picture to stutter here and there. I sure hope the networks get this stuff right. With all the money people are investing in HD tv's and such this really isn't acceptable.

Yeah, I had the same problems with audio during 30 Rock. Parts of it were fine, but something kept making my Denon go wacky and switch in/out of Dolby Digital.
Do you mean Dolby Digital 5.1? All HDTV in the U.S. is Dolby Digital.

I have comcast HD and the center channel dropped out for Bionic Women last night on NBC.

Which is what the name of the show should be since there are two of them! :D

Yes, the center channel was really really low. Always something new with NBC.

Oh, NBC Viewer Panel just emailed me another survey to fill out. I hope I'll get to complain about this.

Do you mean Dolby Digital 5.1? All HDTV in the U.S. is Dolby Digital.

Yes, I meant 5.1. Something was messed up in the bitstream because I kept getting the Dialnorm -4dB message popping up, which should only come on once it locks into the DD signal I believe.

Yes, the center channel was really really low. Always something new with NBC.

It's gotta be KGW's problem, doncha think?
I would think if the network was feeding it f'ed-up, the public and the affiliates would crash their phone banks.

During Saturday Night Live I actually switched to Analog 8.
Sometimes the sounds more important than the video (well, okay not in the case of last Saturday night).

It would be cool if the HD side had the stereo mix on the SAP or something, but I suppose then there'd be sync issues.

Katu news has gone widescreen as of OCT. 11, 2007

Katu has gone widescreen as of OCT. 11, 2007

Actually they went widescreen when they put KATU-DT on the air several years ago.

It's gotta be KGW's problem, doncha think?

I mentioned it on a thread or two in HDTV Programming and no one dittoed so it was almost certainly KGW's problem.

I imagine s/he meant that the local news on KATU-DT is now widescreen.
Hopefully they still have to "dial in it" as they have by far the worst picture quality of the three that now do widescreen news.

KGW fixed the audio issue last night! I had no problems with any of the primetime shows, thank goodness.

The first half of The Office had me rolling on the floor! :) Maybe I didn't laugh as much last week since I couldn't hear what people were saying?

-Dan

KGW fixed the audio issue last night! I had no problems with any of the primetime shows, thank goodness.

The first half of The Office had me rolling on the floor! :) Maybe I didn't laugh as much last week since I couldn't hear what people were saying?

-Dan

Dan... this is your computer speaking to you, I just became aware!

Yes, the center channel was really really low. Always something new with NBC.
I was happy about it. Really!

It gave me an excuse to say to my wife, "See honey, this is why we need a 5.1 receiver... You can hardly hear them speaking!"

My first sighting of HD syndicated programming.!!
KRCW is showing the syndicated reruns of Two and a Half Men in HD @7:00.

Whoa, you're right! Good catch. KRCW must be getting them through HD Pathfire. Everyone remember this moment.

I wonder if they'll get some syndicated movies in HD.

Hopefully, like the widescreen local news has been, it will be monkey see monkey do and we'll see more from others. :)

In itself it's still way cool and I'm really pleased to start seeing HD outside of primetime!!

There was a thread about this in the HD Programming forum a while back.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=885088&highlight=syndication

I generally don't watch much if any syndicated programming but after I saw that thread I checked into the TAAHM ep's WB was airing in the early evening and sure enough they were HD! Slowly, slowly one step at a time the transformation crawls on...

Someone mentioned the new KATU widescreen news recently and it's sub par PQ compared to the others that have made the switch. I have to agree. Since their PQ was not tops before though I guess it makes sense.

I wonder if there's any chance the local stations will invest more money in upgraded digital/HD equipment as we get closer to the analog shutdown?


ron

was it just me or was "brothers and sisters" bouncing from sd to hd all night last night? is that a local issue or from the national feed?

Someone mentioned the new KATU widescreen news recently and it's sub par PQ compared to the others that have made the switch. I have to agree. Since their PQ was not tops before though I guess it makes sense.

I wonder if there's any chance the local stations will invest more money in upgraded digital/HD equipment as we get closer to the analog shutdown?


ron

Agreed that 2.1 widescreen news PQ is terrible.

On the other hand, despite the content, I have to applaud 6.1 and 12.1 for the PQ of their newscasts. It looks very very good for SD.

Any news on when KGW will get on the widescreen and/or HD news bandwagon?

Last night there was on street shot of a reporter on 2.1 that looked unusually sharp to me. Is it possible that they have one HD camera on a location truck? The only thing I remember was the camera came close and the guys face was very clear with the building across the street still in clear focus. Did not notice any improvement in the rest of the program.
nater

KGW HD is showing a blazers game in HD and this is a first for kgw to show a hd produced game that is not programing produced by nbc.:)

what's with KATU lately. every week there have to be one or two HD programs suffer from pillarboxes staying for 10-20 seconds. Tonight it stays on Pushing Daisies for like 30 minuets.....

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/3057/20071024wedpm075901tptpue0.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20071024wedpm075901tptpue0.jpg)

KGW HD is showing a blazers game in HD and this is a first for kgw to show a hd produced game that is not programing produced by nbc.:)

It looked pretty good for KGW's 15 Mbps feed (lots of blocking in the reds) but it's great to see a local HDTV production.

KGW HD is showing a blazers game in HD and this is a first for kgw to show a hd produced game that is not programing produced by nbc.:)Well, not quite right :). 5 1/2 years ago KGW did a couple Blazer games in HD that were in conjunction with and produced by ASCN (Action Sports Cable Network), the HD cable company Paul Allen tried to get off the ground. Unfortunately ASCN didn't last long and that was it for HD Blazers at that time.

Just for kicks I pulled up this old email I sent to Eric Dausman at KGW after the first game:

"Eric,

It was awesome! I was beginning to wonder if I was going to see the Ducks in HD (if they make it to the final four) before the Blazers! Good work. Hey, I do have a question though. There did seem to be quite a lot of pixelization and compression artifacts and the picture quality was softer than other 1080i broadcasts. If you are going to show the exact same thing on he SD channel is there really any need for it? I would imagine that anyone who can get the OTA digital signal would want to watch it in HD. Is there any way we could get you guys to shut down the SD feed and use the whole bandwidth for the HD signal during the HD game broadcasts since its just duplication anyway? It seems with 1080i sports and current compression technology that taking a slice out of the bandwidth for a SD channel makes a big difference in the picture quality of both signals.... I really do appreciate you guys and KGW getting this together though. It's great and you all should be commended. Will there be more HD broadcasts this season and if so how will we know then they are coming up? Thanks.

"Dausman, Eric" wrote:

> > Yes, the Blazer's have their encoder working finally. We tested it today.
> > It should be great.
> >
> > Eric"

The PQ was much better this time around but still showed a bit of overcompression artifacts. And at least via Comcast they seemed to have some switching issues or something with the picture periodically going black for seconds at a time. I'm guessing you guys saw the same via OTA?



ron

The PQ was much better this time around but still showed a bit of overcompression artifacts. And at least via Comcast they seemed to have some switching issues or something with the picture periodically going black for seconds at a time. I'm guessing you guys saw the same via OTA?

Oh yeah. Several black screens, lots of red blocks smearing during camera pans, and it went to SD for a few seconds near the end of the game, I guess to show us how much better HD is. :)

I'm sure they will sort out the blank screen issues but I'm afraid as long as that ridiculous weather channel sub stays up the KGW games will lack really nice PQ unfortunately :(. Unless they get a new state of the art high end encoder anyway. It will be interesting to see how the Comcast SportsNet HD games look in comparison starting in a couple weeks.


ron

I'm sure they will sort out the blank screen issues but I'm afraid as long as that ridiculous weather channel sub stays up the KGW games will lack really nice PQ unfortunately :(. Unless they get a new state of the art high end encoder anyway. It will be interesting to see how the Comcast SportsNet HD games look in comparison starting in a couple weeks.


ron

Was that up?

I set my HD TiVo to "all channels I receive" and incremented through the channels and saw only 8-1. I did see 10-1, 10-3 and 10-4 (I think) so at the time I concluded the (totally worthless) weather channel had been turned off during the game.

what's with KATU lately. every week there have to be one or two HD programs suffer from pillarboxes staying for 10-20 seconds. Tonight it stays on Pushing Daisies for like 30 minuets.....

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/3057/20071024wedpm075901tptpue0.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20071024wedpm075901tptpue0.jpg)


Yeah, that REALLY REALLY bugged me last night. I enjoy Pushing Daisies a great deal, the way it's filmed makes me feel like I'm watching a movie, and those pillar boxes really ruined that for me last night.

Not only did they screw up with the pillar boxes, but they also stuck a commercial break where it didn't belong and so some of the show was cut out. The commercial break prior to the sisters driving out the the Windmill was a screw up, that's why we missed all but the last little bit of what ever song they had been singing.

Thanks a lot KATU.

The black screens affected the analog channel as well… I watched the first quarter in SD during happy hour at Newport Bay. :) Then I watched the last quarter from home in HD. From the looks of it, the TrailBlazers Network only sent one feed - the HD feed - then KGW chopped that for the SD feed; both were equally affected by such problems.

Was that up?

I set my HD TiVo to "all channels I receive" and incremented through the channels and saw only 8-1. I did see 10-1, 10-3 and 10-4 (I think) so at the time I concluded the (totally worthless) weather channel had been turned off during the game.Yeah, it was. I actually switched over to the ATSC tuner during one of the timeouts just to check and sure enough, there it was in all it's bit-stealing putrescence :D.


ron

KGW must have gotten some new equipment, last night the Blazers in HD and tonight, the Bionic Woman episode that was pre-empted last night, is on in HD now. (7:00 PM)
Way cool now that we don't lose HD programming when the Blazers are on!!

is this some kind of a bad joke from KATU? pillar boxes stay on Ugly Betty again tonight for like 10 min.

So two nights in a row they screw up? What's up with that? I'd say someone needs to find a new job.

KGW must have gotten some new equipment, last night the Blazers in HD and tonight, the Bionic Woman episode that was pre-empted last night, is on in HD now. (7:00 PM)

Actually they did this last season when they pre-empted an episode of Friday Night Lights to a Saturday afternoon after an SD Blazers game took its time slot that week.

And you can tell KGW's HD pre-empting still has some flaws like the closed captions are about a minute behind the dialog.

Actually they did this last season when they pre-empted an episode of Friday Night Lights to a Saturday afternoon after an SD Blazers game took its time slot that week.
Ah, I didn't realize they had done this before. I now expect them to do it for all HD they pre-empt. :D

is this some kind of a bad joke from KATU? pillar boxes stay on Ugly Betty again tonight for like 10 min.

This week two. Are they doing this on purpose?

Last night Moonlight on KOIN was about 16mbps. I really hope this high bitrate is here to stay. I wonder when did this high bitrate start? or was this just one night thing?

KOIN's bitrate usually varies between 15-16 Mbps during prime time shows. I think they're still giving us the full bitrate during football games.

really? I could have sworn last few weeks, moonlight was about 13mbps.
I never seen any tv episode during prime time go beyond 13 before. But then again I normally only watch about 3-4 tv shows on CBS. and I believe for KOIN mid-16mbps is "full bitrate"

Aha, you're right! At some point KOIN turned the bit rate even lower for prime time. For example Cold Case on October 14th averaged only 11.3 Mbps. And I can believe their higher bit rate is around 16 Mbps since their football looks more like KGW's 15 Mbps football this season.

I guess the prices of one and zeros must have gone up. :rolleyes:

I guess the prices of one and zeros must have gone up. :rolleyes:
Well, maybe that's the truth.

I don't see SD 6.2 any more. So what, exactly, is KOIN doing with the unused bits? They can't be selling them to USDTV because that's defunct.

It seems to me that bits are like hotel rooms and airline seats. Use them or lose them. So why isn't KOIN using them?

The same could be asked about KATU who dropped their bit rate from 18 Mbps to 15 Mbps for no purpose. All the extra bits are null packets.

Ever get the feeling like they're slooooooowly dropping the picture quality, bit by bit (literally) so when the time comes, they can cram in a bunch of subchannels and no one will complain? Hey, all those bits were just going to waste!

so it seems after a few days of 16mbps now KOIN is back to 12-13mbps....
anyone know if 6.2 is back? I have low KOIN signal so I couldn't check OTA feed.

guess it's too good to be true that we could finally get high bitrate CBS.

what's up with katu lately? Looks like they're signal is up and down on 2.1

KRCW seems to be off the air, is anyone able to pull it in?

I was watching it just fine, are you sure you're not looking at 32.2 TUBE network? That is indeed gone. 32.1 works just fine now, and I was watching 2.5 Men during the time you posted on 32.1 OTA

Why aren't the local stations making sure there time transmitted with the digital signal correct?:rolleyes:

Maybe this has already been discussed here but the clock on my HDTV is set from the digital broadcast of the channel it's on if it's available. Channel 10 seems to be right on time but the rest are all over the map. Channel 8 seems to be consistently about 7 minutes fast. I noticed this when I had set my TV to turn off at a fixed time. Whenever it's on CH 8 it shut off 7 minutes before it should have.:mad:

So how do we get the word out to the local stations to either fix the time or not broadcast it?

I'd like to know why things are starting a minute off. I have Tivo and shows are constantly getting clipped by about a minute. The Tivo is starting and ending on time, but the shows aren't. I've confirmed this by checking my watch and CBS especially is about a minute off. (My watch automatically calibrates itself to the atomic clock in Colorado nightly, so I know it is as accurate as it can get.) I can't just tell my Tivo to start early or end early because that would mess with other shows that are back to back.

I was watching it just fine, are you sure you're not looking at 32.2 TUBE network? That is indeed gone. 32.1 works just fine now, and I was watching 2.5 Men during the time you posted on 32.1 OTA
Yes, I'm sure I had it on the correct channel. I checked back later in the evening and it was fine, so whatever happened was short lived. Thanks for the response.

Earl

So how do we get the word out to the local stations to either fix the time or not broadcast it?
I asked about this in the Reception Hardware forum a couple of weeks ago. The station sends the STT (System Time Table) every second in the PSIP information. Unfortunately stations use PC's to generate PSIP data and few stations have these machines connected to a network where they can set the time through NTP. So the PC's clock drifts and no one notices. The Broadcaster's PSIP Guide (http://www.psip.org/documents/PSIP_guide.pdf) recommends that someone check the PSIP time daily. I have a feeling that's not happening.

I originally asked this because lots of people rely on TV stations to set the clocks on their VCR's so surely there had to be a way to do this with ATSC. There is, but as you can see, it's not very dependable yet.

Unfortunately stations use PC's to generate PSIP data and few stations have these machines connected to a network where they can set the time through NTP. So the PC's clock drifts and no one notices.
I can't speak for other stations in Portland, but my PSIP generator computer is on the network and syncs it's clock to an NTP server which is synced to a GPS clock. Bottom line, the STT is correct on KRCW. The really strange thing is it seems to have made the DST to standard time change fine :confused:

Pat Shearer
Chief Engineer, KRCW

That's because the OS adjusts the time from GMT to that which is configured for the time zone. Assuming the PC is sufficiently patched (or is running Windows Vista), it would know to be -08:00 GMT at 2am on the first Sunday in November, and -07:00 GMT on the second Sunday in March; otherwise it would've made the change a week early this year and 3 weeks late next spring.

If I tune 6.1 OTA I get KOIN's HD feed. If I tune 6.2 I get a message about not being able to decode the signal. If I tune 6.3 I get a message about no signal.

So I think that 6.2 is there but scrambled. Question is what is KOIN putting there? Is it just channel 6 SD being sent to translators? Are they selling bandwidth to someone?

Enquiring minds want to know. :)

If I tune 6.1 OTA I get KOIN's HD feed. If I tune 6.2 I get a message about not being able to decode the signal. If I tune 6.3 I get a message about no signal.

So I think that 6.2 is there but scrambled. Question is what is KOIN putting there? Is it just channel 6 SD being sent to translators? Are they selling bandwidth to someone?

Enquiring minds want to know. :)
There is no 6.3 but 6.2 is pumping out HD bandwidth stealing SD in all its glory.


edited to add, the only time I've seen 6.3 active was during the hurricane and Lee put a local New Orleans station on so we could get first hand info here.

Is anyone else getting strange audio echo on NBC commercials? The echo shows up on certain commercials only, and not during the actual shows. Next time I see one I'll make a note which ones have issues.

-Dan

There is no 6.3 but 6.2 is pumping out HD bandwidth stealing SD in all its glory.

Yep, bless that wonderful SD channel, serving those who cannot afford an HD display yet. Where would KOIN be without it?

According to the MPEG headers (which can be lies), KOIN's HD channel is now 13.5 Mbps and the SD channel is 3.5 Mbps. KGW's headers say the HD channel is 15.8 Mbps and the Weather Plus is 3.0 Mbps.

Macroblocking big time on Chuck this week, I was really able to see it when I paused the show. I saw a little of it on Heroes as well, but not nearly as bad. What's up? I mean it's bad enough that Chuck looks more grainy than a silo of wheat but the macro-blocking made it even worse. Is KGW really strangling their feed that much or is it bad source from NBC? I don't have the equipment to check the bandwidth being sent so I don't know if it was just unusually low Monday night or what.

I think KGW is statmuxing with Weather Plus and changing the bit rates depending on how much it thinks the HD feed needs.

Blocking is just one problem. I've seen every MPEG artifact I've ever read about on KGW and even one I've never read about. I was archiving an episode of the Office and noticed that at one point the bit rate was very low. This wasn't a surprise since the only motion at that point was Michael Scott talking and waving some papers. The problem is that this caused interlaced smearing as the white papers moved over his black suit so it couldn't be properly deinterlaced. It's hardly noticeable except I (try to) convert all 24 fps material to 24 fps progressive before I archive to save space. It looked like some interlaced frames were getting in there somehow. Instead it was just a series of interlaced frames that were so messed up, the deinterlacer couldn't make sense out of them.

Ironically Friday Night Lights never has this problem. There is so much grain in every frame that the bit rate never drops low enough.

Here's an example from Chuck a few weeks ago. This is reduced to SD resolution yet it's still a complete mess.

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/chuck.jpg

I particularly liked how pixels from the green chair smeared over the white curtains and gray carpet as the camera panned to the right. Apparently we're not supposed to notice these things.

Now I do have one reservation as to whether it's the broadcast feed or something else. While I couldn't do it on Chuck Monday (I was recording another show on the second tuner) I have in the past recorded Chuck both OTA and via Comcast channel 708 (HD) and compared the two, and they both were equally awful with grain and artifacts in some fast motion scenes. Could it be that NBC itself is cheaping out on the feed to stations?

Now I do have one reservation as to whether it's the broadcast feed or something else. While I couldn't do it on Chuck Monday (I was recording another show on the second tuner) I have in the past recorded Chuck both OTA and via Comcast channel 708 (HD) and compared the two, and they both were equally awful with grain and artifacts in some fast motion scenes. Could it be that NBC itself is cheaping out on the feed to stations?
I'm not sure that indicates who's at fault. I think Comcast 708 gets exactly what KGW puts out. So either KGW or the network could be the culprit.

NBC does send a lower bitrate feed to its affiliates than other networks (I think it's 28 Mbps instead of 45 Mbps) but I don't think that would wreck the PQ this much. I think it's the statmuxing with Weather Plus channel that's messing it up. Also KGW has a less advanced encoder than KOIN since KGW doesn't send telecine flags which can save some bandwidth with filmed shows. KOIN even uses telecine flags on their SD channel.

8-1 seems to be down for me right now

Coming in (upconverted SD) fine for me.

neither of the HD tuners in my house was picking it up

8.1 working fine here, but it's not HD instead it's a 4:3 signal. (stinks!) But the channel is coming in. Anyone else getting that annoying red line along the far left of the picture?

flyfisher I was getting that same red bar and an awful looking picture

mine came back about the time you guys posted...must have been just for a little bit.

There's another common situation I see where I think KGW's statmuxer is ripping us off. Ever been watching SNF where there's almost no motion (before a play, displaying conference standings, etc.) then all of a sudden your sharp picture with little motion suddenly becomes a soft picture with little motion? That's because an I-frame is being displayed that has nowhere near enough data to make a sharp HD image.

I-frames require the most data and have to be displayed every second or two in ATSC. I suspect the statmuxer is seeing little data on the HD channel (true since it's nearly a still image) and thinks it can steal some bandwidth for Weather Plus for longer than it should. Since there's no motion, the subsequent frames don't improve the blurry I-frame so you're stuck looking at it.

I just got around to viewing SNL from Saturday. It was a repeat of a few weeks ago (with Brian Williams).

IIRC when the show aired a few weeks ago it was just fine. But the repeat was awful. It was both letterboxed and pillar boxed. Is there a word for that? Also the NBC peacock normally has an HD next to it, but not Saturday. So it looks like KGW lost the HD feed and substituted the SD feed instead.

This was recorded from Comcast 708, but I assume that OTA had the same problem.

I don't know about NBC on Saturday, but last night CBS kept switching back and forth between SD and HD, mostly at the beginning of the shows. It would start HD, go to SD, then a minute or so later back to HD. Lame.

Do you suppose once everyone is digital all the time they will constantly send an HD signal and let the TVs do the downscaling?

I watched the first half hour or so of SNL and it was all HD. In the past it has dropped to SD later in the show, I guess because the guy on the switch has fallen asleep.

Do you suppose once everyone is digital all the time they will constantly send an HD signal and let the TVs do the downscaling?

They could, but I bet every station will have a bandwidth-sucking SD subchannel by then.

>> I don't have the equipment to check the bandwidth being sent
>> so I don't know if it was just unusually low Monday night or what

For 2007-11-12 the dtvstream utility says:

Dropped pkts (Continuity Counter Errors) = 0
Active PIDs in this stream
PID=0x0, ctrl_type=PAT, pkt_cnt=41727 PAT
PID=0x30, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=20995 ?
PID=0x31, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=41190095 main
PID=0x34, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=1181137 main
PID=0x40, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=41728 ?
PID=0x41, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=7241123 weather
PID=0x44, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=656186 weather
PID=0x1d00, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=25101 ?
PID=0x1d01, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=11156 ?
PID=0x1d02, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=5022 ?
PID=0x1d03, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=3585 ?
PID=0x1e00, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=58569 ?
PID=0x1e01, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=19523 ?
PID=0x1e02, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=10044 ?
PID=0x1e03, ctrl_type=UNDEFINED, pkt_cnt=4780 ?
PID=0x1ffb, ctrl_type=ATSC, pkt_cnt=172529 ?
PID=0x1fff, ctrl_type=NULL, pkt_cnt=3467531 null

Chuck 78.2 % of the total bandwidth (15,172,935 bits/second video+audio)
weather 14.6 %
null 6.4 %
? 0.68 %
PAT 0.077 %

Short on bandwidth and yet 6.4% wasted on null packets?

(This is for 70 minutes including ~5 minutes before and after Chuck.)

Does anyone know what is in those other PIDs?

----------------

Dispite good numbers from the tuners (e.g. signal strength 100%, signal quality 95%,
0 dropped packets, 0 packets that could not be corrected by forward-error-correction)
I consistantly get lots of mpeg decoding errors from KGW:

frame=15445 q=0.0 size= 1808789kB time=515.0 bitrate=28769.8kbits/s dup=25 drop=0
[mpeg2video @ 0x81bc10]MPEG motion vector out of boundary
frame=15488 q=0.0 size= 1813594kB time=516.4 bitrate=28771.2kbits/s dup=25 drop=0
[mpeg2video @ 0x81bc10]MPEG motion vector out of boundary
frame=16157 q=0.0 size= 1892227kB time=538.8 bitrate=28770.6kbits/s dup=25 drop=0
[mpeg2video @ 0x81bc10]MPEG motion vector out of boundary
frame=16296 q=0.0 size= 1908516kB time=543.4 bitrate=28770.5kbits/s dup=25 drop=0
[mpeg2video @ 0x81bc10]MPEG motion vector out of boundary
frame=16341 q=0.0 size= 1913672kB time=544.9 bitrate=28770.3kbits/s dup=25 drop=0
[mpeg2video @ 0x81bc10]MPEG motion vector out of boundary
frame=16835 q=0.0 size= 1971680kB time=561.4 bitrate=28770.5kbits/s dup=25 drop=0
[mpeg2video @ 0x81bc10]MPEG motion vector out of boundary
frame=17813 q=0.0 size= 2086289kB time=594.0 bitrate=28770.2kbits/s dup=25 drop=0
[mpeg2video @ 0x81bc10]MPEG motion vector out of boundary
frame=23099 q=0.0 size= 2705391kB time=770.3 bitrate=28770.0kbits/s dup=25 drop=0
[mpeg2video @ 0x81bc10]MPEG motion vector out of boundary
frame=23789 q=0.0 size= 2786719kB time=793.5 bitrate=28770.8kbits/s dup=25 drop=0
[mpeg2video @ 0x81bc10]MPEG motion vector out of boundary
frame=23817 q=0.0 size= 2789648kB time=794.3 bitrate=28770.9kbits/s dup=25 drop=0
...

----------------

> all of a sudden your sharp picture with little motion suddenly becomes a soft picture with
> little motion? That's because an I-frame is being displayed that has nowhere near enough data
> to make a sharp HD image.

I see this a LOT on OPB. Then a moment later it suddenly snaps into a sharp (well, call it
less-unsharp) image. Probably when the next I-frame comes along.

Once they get rid of their analog feeds will they have more bandwidth to work with, or is the digital bandwidth they have now all they get? It would really be nice if they could get a bunch more bandwidth, enough to cleanly run two HD channels and a SD sub, or one HD channel and a few SD subs with plenty of bandwidth for all to have great pictures.

> Once they get rid of their analog feeds will they have more bandwidth
> to work with, or is the digital bandwidth they have now all they get?

My understanding is they have to give one channel back, so no,
they don't get more bandwidth once analog goes away. :-(

There will be open channels that someone could apply for. For example
VHF-LO (2-6) will be unused after the analogs shut down (and 4 moves to 22).

> It would really be nice if they could get a bunch more bandwidth,
> enough to cleanly run two HD channels and a SD sub, or one HD channel
> and a few SD subs will plenty of bandwidth for all to have great pictures.

More than 1 HD or 2 SD per channel results in problems. And the
1 HD is pushing it.

Given the artifact ridden crap they're putting out, I'm no longer
in a hurry to get a HD display. Most of the channels look like crap
even in SD.

Wow, I find the pictures in HD to be EXCELLENT. I have seen a few problems here and there, but overall the picture is so much better in HD. I also have compared the HD channels to Comcast HD channels of the same from time to time and often where there's artifacts and glitches on the OTA, the same exists on Comcast. Also, quality OTA is generally better than the same HD channel on Comcast. Things aren't perfect but they ALWAYS beat the heck out of SD. I am just hoping for even better, but I am very happy with what we've got now, it's tons better than SD digital, and analog, well the analog channels don't come in well at all for me and those that do come in clearly don't look as good as the SD digital channels.

Does anyone know what is in those other PIDs?
If I remember right... PIDs 0x31 and 0x34 are the HD stream with audio. PIDs 0x41 and 0x43 are wonderful Weather Plus. The PSIP data is in PID 0x1FFB.


I consistantly get lots of mpeg decoding errors from KGW:
The last time I saw motion vectors out of bounds errors, I was using old code that worked great for playing DVDs but constantly complained when I played HDTV with it. Turns out the code was wrong -- motion vectors are larger in HDTV due to (yes, you guessed it) more pixels. Whoops.

I see this a LOT on OPB. Then a moment later it suddenly snaps into a sharp (well, call it
less-unsharp) image. Probably when the next I-frame comes along.
I think that's their statmuxer at work too. I don't know for sure because this is just a hobby for me.

Wow, I find the pictures in HD to be EXCELLENT. I have seen a few problems here and there, but overall the picture is so much better in HD.
Overall, yes, the picture is much better than analog, no doubt about that.

The problem is that the quality could be still better if stations would stop throwing away bandwidth on subchannels no one cares about. Encoders that claim to be able to encode 1080i in 15 Mbps pull this off by constantly throwing away detail and working non stop to cover up as much mosquito noise as possible.

When KOIN was broadcasting the Super Bowl at the full ATSC bit rate I could pause anywhere during the game and the worst I would see is some mosquito noise around fast motion. The overall effect at full speed was just stunning.

Now when I pause SNF when anything is happening, the whole screen is a mess of mismatched blocks and mosquito fuzz. The encoder does its best to keep shifting everything around so you'll see an evenly blurry picture and nothing in the mess will draw your attention. The effective resolution is dropping near SD or below SD levels of resolution for brief moments (see my example from Chuck). If stations would use their bits to broadcast HDTV, this wouldn't happen.

I'm completely baffled by stations like KRCW and KATU that do have the bandwidth to give us full bit rate HDTV but choose not to, as if they're conditioning us to forget the great HDTV we once saw and accept the "new" lesser HDTV.

I'd like to see more bandwidth available so that sub-channels can be done without sacrificing quality. I'd like to see cable get a run for it's money. Yeah, I think the weather channel is a waste on 8.2, but if there was more bandwidth available 10.1, 10.2, and 10.3 could be so much better, and if they had more bandwidth maybe they could even add an all kids PBS channel. (10.4 is indeed a waste, I turned it on once and it was showing Tom McCalls funeral...zzzzzz) I miss the Tube network on 32.2

More bandwidth, more channels AND better quality is what I hope for.

Overall, yes, the picture is much better than
I'm completely baffled by stations like KRCW and KATU that do have the bandwidth to give us full bit rate HDTV but choose not to, as if they're conditioning us to forget the great HDTV we once saw and accept the "new" lesser HDTV.
Hear! Hear!
KATU wasn't that great when they were 17mbps either and then they reduced it to mid 14 for no good reason, not that any reasons would ever be good really.

to be honest I'm also baffled by KOIN's SD multicast and for me it's even worse than KGW's weather plus. I still see no use of the thing and wonder who actually use the damn feed especially when they turn it off for football HD. I dont buy into their confidence of their encoder and the "13mbps is enough" either. I spotted the bitrate jump from 13 to mid-16 when I watched Moonlight during those few days even before I got to check the bitrate.

The slow scenes will look fine but many times if you pause it, you'd still spot some macroblocks. As for fast/crazy lights scenes? well........
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/1028/20071102fripm090002tptpmg1.th.jpg (http://img231.imageshack.us/my.php?image=20071102fripm090002tptpmg1.jpg)
They're in the club for about 3-4 minuets and it's like that pretty much the entire time.

I know that I'm being such a nitpicking but our OTA-HD is really disappointing to me.
KATU - 14.5mbps with not so good encoder and no sub-channels.
KRCW - 10-13mbps with no sub-channels (I believe they given up on telecine flag? Don't think I ever see them ever again).
KOIN - 10-13mbps with 1 sub-channel which is SD multicast.
KGW - 15mbps with no telecine flag.
I'm trying to forget that we even have KOPB..........

We get decent bitrate only from KPTV & KPDX

KPTV is pretty good and I think it's been 15mbps most of the times for HD and it even goes up to 16-17 for local news so the 15mbps was the limitation from Fox. and I believe they don't really need to re-encode HD like everyone else because of how Fox broadcasts so even though they're about the same bitrate as KATU their HD feed is so much better.

KPDX got highest bitrate for HD shows among all stations at around mid 16 but are there really any HD programs worth watching?

This thread has really peaked my interest. My MythTV system (with HDHomerun tuners) is now active. I'm using Comcast basic and we're really only interested in the locals (I'm only using comcast basic because I have broadband as well).

I'm on Prune Hill in Camas and have a clear unobstructed view of all the broadcast towers. I'm really considering going to OTA rather than the HD locals as delivered by Comcast. The only one benefit from going with Comcast (that I can see) is the Discovery Channel happens to show up as clear-QAM. Everything else is either local government or shopping.

The HD on comcast seems to be a bit "soft" and I often see some compression artifacts. I really wouldn't be missing anything by switching...

I don't see any difference in quality between Comcast and OTA where I live. The times I've saved shows off of Comcast they were the bit rate as OTA. I record things off of OTA because I never have to worry about losing a show because the cable went out that night.

I still see no use of the thing and wonder who actually use the damn feed especially when they turn it off for football HD.
Back when they turned off the SD feed for football games (proving that it serves no purpose at all), it was great because we got full bit rate HD, just like it was supposed to be was ATSC was introduced. Now that they've cranked the HD bit rate down all the time, they don't even need to turn the SD feed off! Thanks for nothing, KOIN!

They're in the club for about 3-4 minuets and it's like that pretty much the entire time.
The only time I've seen flashing lights not block up like that was on a UPN show called "Kevin Hill". KPDX was sending full bit rate 1080i which proved that with enough bits, 1080i can work with any material.

KATU - 14.5mbps with not so good encoder and no sub-channels.
During film material, KATU is interesting because with 720p, each film frame is duplicated two or three times (24 fps -> 60 fps). Well, it's supposed to be. With KATU's new Scrooge bit rate, now duplicate frames are often not duplicates at all. The first frame is often a soft blocky frame and the "duplicate" frame after it fills in the missing parts. This gives filmed material an odd rough look at times.

I first noticed this during Lost when Jin did his Kung Fu kick to stop the mysterious Russian Dharma guy. There was so much blocking during that chase, it almost looked like bad video.

KRCW - 10-13mbps with no sub-channels (I believe they given up on telecine flag? Don't think I ever see them ever again).
They were using it for a while and it improved things, but it suddenly stopped one summer. I asked them to try using it again and they did. Unfortunately it caused a bunch of problems.

Note that KRCW still can't get DD 5.1 audio to work while plenty of CW stations around the country having it working perfectly.

KOIN - 10-13mbps with 1 sub-channel which is SD multicast.
The only good thing I can say is that their SD multicast looks very good.

KGW - 15mbps with no telecine flag.
There are other NBC affiliates in the country who have encoders that use the telecine flag so I know it's possible. This would improve the PQ of a lot of prime time shows.

KPTV is pretty good and I think it's been 15mbps most of the times for HD and it even goes up to 16-17 for local news so the 15mbps was the limitation from Fox. and I believe they don't really need to re-encode HD like everyone else because of how Fox broadcasts so even though they're about the same bitrate as KATU their HD feed is so much better.
Also I think FOX can send variable-length GOPs so they can use smarter compression (I haven't checked this lately). You know the stream that FOX sends to its affiliates must be coming out of a great encoder since the whole country is watching it.

KPDX got highest bitrate for HD shows among all stations at around mid 16 but are there really any HD programs worth watching?
The rare times that MyTV or whatever it's called has shown a movie in HD, it's been a mess. Not because of the bit rate but because the sources have been messed up. MyTV is 720p but there have been interlacing artifacts in their movies. I know it sounds crazy but here's an example from "Crazy/Beautiful":

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/crazyinterlaced.jpg

Again, I suspect stations/networks think we humans don't notice these things.

oops :D

Also, will KGW ever fix their sound problem? I swear they can't go longer than 3-4 minuets without having at least 1 popping or distorted sound. It gets extra bad during the Today Show.

I'm not getting any popping or distorted sounds from KGW.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the issue with your sound is, but I haven't experienced it.

It's not as obvious during the TV shows but it's pretty obvious for music performances on late night and especially the Today Show. I'm pretty sure it's must be in the feed since it's on both OTA and comcast. It also shows when I watch from 3412 box and when I transfer it to PC, every codec I tried have the same pop. If it's not against the rule I could upload 10-20 sec. clip some where.

Well here goes, if this is against the rule I could remove them.
Today show sample http://www.megaupload.com/?d=10OK4XNA
Chuck (When the guy says "It's all clear") http://www.megaupload.com/?d=EDMI2FZS
Conan http://www.megaupload.com/?d=NDH3S7N3

Actually it barely comes up for tv shows but it still does here and there but I could live with it. It's the music performances on Today show and Leno/Conan that bother me because I swear there's at least 1 popping on every performance. It's the worst with Today Show.

scowl> The last time I saw motion vectors out of bounds errors, I was using
scowl> old code that worked great for playing DVDs but constantly complained
scowl> when I played HDTV with it. Turns out the code was wrong -- motion vectors
scowl> are larger in HDTV due to (yes, you guessed it) more pixels. Whoops.

Interesting. And ffmpeg certainly isn't the highest quality code I've
ever seen. But if it couldn't handle 1080i I'd expect to get similar
frequent errors from all the other 1080i stations and I don't. KOIN
and OPB sometimes come in perfectly, no decoding errors except at the
beginning and end. WB always has errors but that is a reception problem.
KGW is an oddball, tuner/demod claims perfect reception yet I always get
decoding errors.

scowl> The effective resolution is dropping near SD or below SD levels of
scowl> resolution for brief moments (see my example from Chuck).

When I looked at that sequence frame by frame, it looked like they
used a very slow shutter speed. Pretty horrid for something that is
supposed to be 60 fps HD. Perhaps part of the blur I saw was actually
the encode/decode problem you found (the green smear).

hdflies> I'm also baffled by KOIN's SD multicast

Read the earlier messages in this thread. Can't have the wife
burning the phosphor on the tube.

hdflies> I'm trying to forget that we even have KOPB

Which is really sad, since most of the shows that could really benefit
from higher definition, art, travel, architecture, things where the
picture is most of the content, are on OPB. Sitcoms, dramas and such
are mostly about the writing and acting. But OPB has screwed up their
picture so badly, in so many ways, that it is really annoying to try
and watch something.

hdflies> I believe they don't really need to re-encode HD like everyone
hdflies> else because of how Fox broadcasts so even though they're about
hdflies> the same bitrate as KATU their HD feed is so much better.

So Fox has a high quality encoder at the network instead of a crappy encoder
at each station? Maybe some of the other networks should get a clue?

hdflies> KPDX got highest bitrate for HD shows among all stations at around
hdflies> mid 16 but are there really any HD programs worth watching?

KPDX has Star Trek (obviously shot on film) and the occasional movie.
KPDX looks better in analog than OPB does in HD.

scowl> there have been interlacing artifacts in their movies

You want interlacing artifacts? Check out OPB. Swapping the field order
doesn't help. And the comb artifacts! Even on the analog broadcast!

scowl> I'm not getting any popping or distorted sounds from KGW.

Same here. Just mysterious decoding errors. (and blurry source material)

Parade on KGW also filled with popping & distort sounds. this can't be just me.

Interesting. And ffmpeg certainly isn't the highest quality code I've
ever seen. But if it couldn't handle 1080i I'd expect to get similar
frequent errors from all the other 1080i stations and I don't.
I'm using mplayer and xine which I think were both based on ffmpeg code. I've never heard of anyone using the ffmpeg code directly with HD.

When I looked at that sequence frame by frame, it looked like they
used a very slow shutter speed. Pretty horrid for something that is
supposed to be 60 fps HD.
This isn't 60 fps. Film is 24 fps. The shutter speed for motion picture film is usually around 1/60 to 1/150. Any faster and motion start to look studdering and choppy (the anachronistic term for it is "overcranking"). Some directors think it looks cool. That's why the beginning of Saving Private Ryan looks so weird.

Read the earlier messages in this thread. Can't have the wife
burning the phosphor on the tube.
All ATSC receivers I've seen these days will let you center cut 16:9. I would bet that 4:3 material on KOIN's HD channel has done more damage to 16:9 displays than 16:9 material has done to 4:3 displays.

So Fox has a high quality encoder at the network instead of a crappy encoder
at each station? Maybe some of the other networks should get a clue?
To implement this, each network would have to completely redesign how they send affiliates their feed and buy every station a new encoder. Fox was able to do this because they entered HD so late in the game and were able to implement this for all their affiliates in one large deployment. NBC is having enough trouble try to coordinate a new MPEG-4 feed to their affiliates.

You want interlacing artifacts? Check out OPB. Swapping the field order
doesn't help.
All MPEG-2 compliant decoders will handle changes in field order.

Parade on KGW also filled with popping & distort sounds. this can't be just me.

Why not?

Why not?
well if I'm the only one with the problem what went wrong then? The popping is in both OTA & Comcast. Whether I play back with DVR or using PC the popping comes up. The mpeg2repair gives out clean log for both video and audio. and I don't have problem with any other channels

:confused::confused::confused:

What receiver are you using? Some receivers (especially older ones) have been known to have problems with AC-3 audio (i.e. all of HDTV). Dolby had some gaps in their specification which caused encoders and decoders to disagree.

For example, my older receiver will mute the audio for about a second whenever the stream switches between DD2.0 and 5.1 which of course happens many many times during a CBS football game. Newer receivers don't do that because Dolby revised the spec to disallow that.

What receiver are you using? Some receivers (especially older ones) have been known to have problems with AC-3 audio (i.e. all of HDTV). Dolby had some gaps in their specification which caused encoders and decoders to disagree.

For example, my older receiver will mute the audio for about a second whenever the stream switches between DD2.0 and 5.1 which of course happens many many times during a CBS football game. Newer receivers don't do that because Dolby revised the spec to disallow that.

I don't have receiver.
my DVR connects to my 2.0 speakers via analog. and my PC connects to 5.1 speaker from soundcard and also have one headphone. All have the same problem at the exact same point.

> Parade on KGW also filled with popping & distort sounds. this can't be just me.

I recorded 20 minutes of the parade

Continuity Counter Errors) = 0
Active PIDs in this stream
PID=0x0, ctrl_type=PAT, pkt_cnt=11920
PID=0x30, ctrl_type=PMT, pkt_cnt=5998 KGW-HD
PID=0x31, ctrl_type=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=11973203 KGW-HD
PID=0x34, ctrl_type=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=337406 KGW-HD
PID=0x40, ctrl_type=PMT, pkt_cnt=11921 Weather
PID=0x41, ctrl_type=VIDEO, pkt_cnt=2070925 Weather
PID=0x44, ctrl_type=AUDIO_AC3, pkt_cnt=187446 Weather
PID=0x1d00, ctrl_type=EIT, pkt_cnt=4796 ?
PID=0x1d01, ctrl_type=EIT, pkt_cnt=1600 ?
PID=0x1d02, ctrl_type=EIT, pkt_cnt=1440 ?
PID=0x1d03, ctrl_type=EIT, pkt_cnt=1029 ?
PID=0x1e00, ctrl_type=ETT, pkt_cnt=11992 ?
PID=0x1e01, ctrl_type=ETT, pkt_cnt=2400 ?
PID=0x1e02, ctrl_type=ETT, pkt_cnt=1440 ?
PID=0x1e03, ctrl_type=ETT, pkt_cnt=1715 ?
PID=0x1ffb, ctrl_type=ATSC, pkt_cnt=49316 PSIP
PID=0x1fff, ctrl_type=NULL, pkt_cnt=794263 wasted bandwidth
Stream contains 2 program(s).
Default program is 3.
Program 3: 8-1 KGW-HD:
Video (MPEG-2)
Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng
Program 4: 8-2 Weather:
Video (MPEG-2)
Audio (Dolby AC-3), language = eng

Stream #0.0[0x31], 1/90000, 29.97 fps(r): Video: mpeg2video, yuv420p, 1920x1080, 1001/30000, 15800 kb/s
Stream #0.1[0x34](eng), 1/90000: Audio: ac3, 48000 Hz, 5:1, 384 kb/s

Anyone know what the PMT is?

I don't hear any popping or distortion. I don't have a 5.1 setup, just
stereo, so perhaps the problem is only in the other 3.1 channels?

Clicks and pops can be an artifact of bad reception. Once I had an
odd case where bad reception of KOIN put ffmpeg into some funky
mode that made the audio sound *very* strange.

> The popping is in both OTA & Comcast.

Hmmm, seems *very* unlikely that you would get the same reception
problem from both OTA and cable.

> my DVR connects to my 2.0 speakers via analog

DVR meaning a commercial turnkey DVR, like a tivo?

> my PC connects to 5.1 speaker from soundcard

So you have two completely different methods to convert from
the mpeg2ts file to analog speakers? I wonder what the chances
are of both having the same Dolby spec. bug?

> This isn't 60 fps. Film is 24 fps. The shutter speed for motion picture
> film is usually around 1/60 to 1/150.

1/60 to 1/150 is slow and would explain the blur.

> Any faster and motion start to look studdering and choppy (the
> anachronistic term for it is "overcranking").

Like a strobe light?

> All ATSC receivers I've seen these days will let you center cut 16:9.

I didn't say it was a *good* reason.

>> You want interlacing artifacts? Check out OPB. Swapping the field
>> order doesn't help.

> All MPEG-2 compliant decoders will handle changes in field order.

I guess ffmpeg isn't a MPEG-2 compliant decoder. Sometimes KPXG
changes field order and I have to rerun ffmpeg with a different
option to swap the fields.

But whatever OPB has been doing lately (I think it started when
they added the 4th subchannel) looks like incorrect field order,
but swapping the field order doesn't help.

>

I don't hear any popping or distortion. I don't have a 5.1 setup, just
stereo, so perhaps the problem is only in the other 3.1 channels?



Does the 20 min. you capped got any music performances? maybe I could point out the exact point I got the problem.

Like I said when I check the feed with program like mpeg2repair, the log comes out clean with 0 glitch. so I was convinced it's in the feed. but why I'm the only one hearing this is really puzzling me.

It isn't just hdflies. I was expecting major pops
and didn't notice any the first time, but after getting
a description of exactly where the problems were,
and listening closer, yes there is something there.

The Pillsbury float had Jordin Sparks singing.

> when she sang "sooner or later" popping at "sooner" and
> again later "the truth is a stranger soul is in danger"
> I could hear a pop in "danger"

Then I turned off the TV speakers and turned on the
serious speakers and cranked up the volume a bit.
It sounded to me similar to a dirty volume control,
not really a pop. Perhaps due to a difference in
decoding software.

I think she was just lip syncing, I didn't see the drummer
and the string section on the float, and I think there was
some sort of reverb or sound-on-sound. :-)

You know what I find most annoying? Last night I was watching The Incredibles on KGW and the sound kept echoing. Commercials have done this from time to time as well, but last night it was also doing it periodically during the show. Perhaps I wouldn't notice it if I was just using TV speakers, but I watch TV using my 5.1 surround system.

I know that movie doesn't normally sound that way, as my kids have it on DVD.

Is anyone else getting strange audio echo on NBC commercials? The echo shows up on certain commercials only, and not during the actual shows. Next time I see one I'll make a note which ones have issues.

-Dan

No clue in the world how to fix it,,,but it drives me crazy. Was hoping one of the geniuses in here was familiar with the issue.

No clue in the world how to fix it,,,but it drives me crazy. Was hoping one of the geniuses in here was familiar with the issue.

I don't believe it's viewer-fixable. The fix has to come from KGW. This audio anomaly has been going on for a very long time. I have emailed their engineering group many times but it has not been resolved. At first I thought it was my own 5.1 hookup but I also get it when viewing on my SRS surround Toshiba in my den. I believe it has to do with KGW's encoder not being able to handle commercials produced in HD and DD 5.1. HD commercials is when I experience the "pipe" audio. But it is strange that it doesn't occur during normal programming, just on the NFL shows, it seems. Since it has been going on for so long, it's probably a very expensive fix for KGW insofar as equipment is concerned.

Ooops: The LIFE promo spot just now, in HD, didn't have the "pipe" audio. :confused::confused: So I'm back to square one.

Well, as I said it was doing that echo thing during the Incredibles periodically so it's not just commercials. NBC needs to get it's act together.

Can someone point out what part of the Incredibles it was echoing? I didn't notice it.

I didn't record it so I can't give you specific times. It was not the showing of it on the weekend, but the one Thanksgiving night. It would happen periodically throughout the first hour(that's all I watched), usually for a few minutes at a time. It did it quite frequently throughout that period of time I watched it. Of course it also did it during several commercials which isn't uncommon on NBC.

My reception of OPB 27 has fallen off a cliff the last month or so.
Other stations (KATU, KPTV, KPDX, ...) are coming in normally,
perfectly in some cases. This is definitely a reception problem
(mainly a failure of the forward error correction), I'm not
confusing this with the compression artifacts and other crap
OPB is sending us.

Is anyone else seeing this?

Have they changed anything at the station?

I just checked and I'm also seeing a bouncy signal quality from KOPB. Fortunately it's stil strong enough for me to receive it without errors but I'm in a prime reception area.

I have Comcast, no box, and I also notice this annoying echo on NBC HD channel 8-1 - mainly on commercials, sometimes (but not as noticeable) on programming like "30 Rock".

I'm glad to hear it's not my TV!

I have an Olevia 437V TV, no additional audio system.

I was (sort of) relieved to hear that the audio echo problem on NBC is happening to other people - I only have one HDTV (and it's a cheapo Olevia) so I didn't know if it was just me...

So here's another anomaly I'm experiencing...

On KOIN 6-1 there is always a white line across the bottom of the screen - it varies in height from roughly 1-3 pixels, but it never goes away. I've never seen it on any other channel.

Has anyone else experienced this? It's always been there ever since I got my TV about a year ago. A couple of months ago I upgraded my TV's firmware, but it hasn't made any difference.

It's not a big deal since it's always at the very bottom of the screen and doesn't interfere with the picture, but it's still annoying!

(I have basic Comcast cable, no box - not paying for HD channels but getting HD networks anyway)

> I'm also seeing a bouncy signal quality from KOPB.

So it's not just me. Thanks.

An attenuator (10 dB appears to be optimum) helps
OPB somewhat (not enough) but hurts the other channels.
This is new. Reception of OPB never used to be affected
by signal level (within reason) while other stations
liked as much signal strength as possible (which still
seems to be the case). Given the signal strength readings
from the tuner, it shouldn't be overloaded. The other
possibility I can think of is that an attenuator will
reduce reflections within the coax, but that should be
static multipath, which 5th gen demods should be able to
handle. Right? And shouldn't reflections with the coax
be the same for all stations? And it seems unlikely that
scowl and I would both suddenly have problems with
reflections within coax.

I would welcome any other theories that might explain
any of this.

> On KOIN 6-1 there is always a white line across the bottom of
> the screen - it varies in height from roughly 1-3 pixels, but
> it never goes away.

Appariently this is due to KOIN being 1920x1088 instead of
1920x1080.

One thing nice about a software decoder. You can have it crop
off the botton 8 rows.

SD is supposed to be 720x480.

In 2005, OPB SD was 704x480
Recently it was 528x480 up to 2007-10-23 (528 is really pathetic)
Sometime between 2007-10-23 and 2007-10-27 it changed to 640x480

Ah Ha! Perhaps whatever they changed to increase the resolution
somehow messed up reception. But it turns out that the reception
problems started 2007-11-05. 2007-11-04 was fine. So much for
that theory.

What changed between 2007-11-04 and 2007-11-05?

In 2005, OPB SD was 704x480
Recently it was 528x480 up to 2007-10-23 (528 is really pathetic)
Sometime between 2007-10-23 and 2007-10-27 it changed to 640x480
Hey, they increased it! I wonder if they did this because 528x480 isn't a legal ATSC resolution but 640x480 is? It seemed like they were breaking the law with the smaller resolution.

Appariently this is due to KOIN being 1920x1088 instead of
1920x1080.
Yes, the MPEG header from KOIN says 1920x1088. It seems like they could easily fix that.

Hey, 1920x1088 isn't a legal ATSC resolution either! I think I'll report them. ;)

On KOIN 6-1 there is always a white line across the bottom of the screen - it varies in height from roughly 1-3 pixels, but it never goes away. I've never seen it on any other channel.

Has anyone else experienced this? It's always been there ever since I got my TV about a year ago. A couple of months ago I upgraded my TV's firmware, but it hasn't made any difference.

It's not a big deal since it's always at the very bottom of the screen and doesn't interfere with the picture, but it's still annoying!Hmm, I run my panel in full pixel mode and haven't noticed this on KOIN. I generally leave my picture shifted upward as far as possible too because most channels have garbage at the top of the frame. I have noticed lately that on 8-1 there has been a white line at the bottom that was not previously there, so whenever I watch NBC (seems like it's just network content) I have to shift the screen downward to hide it, and then move it back up afterwards.


ron

Your panel may automatically snip off any pixels below 1080.

SD is supposed to be 720x480.

In 2005, OPB SD was 704x480



My remembrance of the ATSC standard is that widescreen SD is 704x480 -- not 720x480. (The latter is the DVD standard.)

Googling for 1920x1088 1920x1080 ATSC finds some interesting things.

http://pchdtv.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=732

says:

> 1920x1088 is the frame size. 1920x1080 is the image size.
> ATSC spec recommends all black for bottom 8 lines to prevent
> quantizer noise from unused lines 1080-1088 causing artifacts
> to appear on lines 1072-1080.

quantizer noise artifacts? Is this the source of the green smear?

So KOIN has the bottom 8 rows as grey instead of black?
(In addition to the 1080 vs 1088 "header" difference.)

The link to the ATSC document no longer works. :-(

Green smear?

The worst I can think of it causing is artifacts at the very bottom of the screen. For example you might see some noise in lines 1072-1080 if they didn't compress well with the blank 1080-1088 lines.

Actually I'd think gray might be better filler since black would create a sharp high frequency division in the middle of the macroblocks if the bottom of the image were white. But some would argue that even dark gray noise is more visible against a black background than light gray is against a white background.

I don't know. This is just my hobby. :)

Anyone else see the announcement on KGW about HD??
On Jan 25 they are going full blown HD. They have blown 3.5 mil on equipment to be able to do it. They are allready starting to tout themselves as the 'only HD channel in Portland' (or some such)

Anyone else see the announcement on KGW about HD??
On Jan 25 they are going full blown HD.

Really? So they're dropping that stupid weather channel?


Hmmm .... why do I already know the answer to that? :)

Anyone else see the announcement on KGW about HD??
On Jan 25 they are going full blown HD. They have blown 3.5 mil on equipment to be able to do it. They are allready starting to tout themselves as the 'only HD channel in Portland' (or some such)

http://www.kgw.com/news/pdf/KGW-HD-News.doc

KGW NORTHWEST NEWSCHANNEL 8 TO LAUNCH LOCAL NEWS IN HD
Belo station to be first in market to bring high definition news to viewers

PORTLAND, OR—KGW Northwest NewsChannel 8 announced today it will begin broadcasting its local newscasts in full power high definition on January 21, 2008. NewsChannel 8 will be the first and only Portland station to broadcast in true HD having made the commitment to bring viewers the highest quality pictures only high definition television can offer.

Viewers will be able to receive the most detailed and visually precise weather forecast in the critical severe weather season with NewsChannel 8’s HD weather. The First Alert Storm Team will have the advanced tools of Live Doppler 8000 and 3-D radar in HD. The primary remote sky-cam will showcase Portland’s skyline in high definition. With extended daylight in the spring of 2008, Sky8, the KGW Helicopter, will also broadcast in full HD. NewsChannel 8 will deliver viewers the incredible detail only HD can showcase, significantly enhancing aerial coverage of weather, traffic, and breaking news.

NewsChannel 8’s anchors and reporters appear in high definition from the KGW HD Studios and newsroom cameras. The KGW news studio has been redesigned for the HD environment, and custom HD graphics will also be part of the HD news experience.

KGW Northwest NewsChannel 8 will be one of less than 10% of the stations in the country who have made the significant investment to broadcast local news in high definition. Competitors broadcasting local news in standard definition widescreen simply provide a wider picture made from the original standard definition equipment with no added HDTV detail. NewsChannel 8’s high definition news will have over five times the sharpness and resolution of any other Portland television station’s news.

In contrast to wide screen, the transition to full high definition requires a substantial financial commitment requiring the replacement of everything from the cameras to the transmitter involving over 500 pieces of additional gear to upgrade to HD technology.

Viewers with high definition TV sets will enjoy the full HD news experience on KGW. Those with digital televisions will see the wide screen presentation and some, but not all, of the increased picture detail. Viewers with analog television sets will benefit from the enhanced weather forecasting but will not see the granular detail digital or high definition sets will offer.

NewsChannel 8 will extend its high definition commitment to the 10 PM newscast produced for KRCW, NewsChannel 8 @ 10 on Portland’s CW.

“The success of KGW is built on our history of leadership and innovation with an unwavering dedication to a quality experience for the viewer,” said DJ Wilson, President and General Manager of NewsChannel 8. “We’re very proud and thrilled to be among a very select group of broadcast stations equipped to offer viewers the absolute highest quality technical delivery of a broadcast signal available today through true full power HD.”

KGW Northwest NewsChannel 8 joins its sister station KING Television in Seattle (NBC) which launched full HD in April of this year, and NBC Nightly News with Brian Williams, which launched in high definition in March 2007.

KGW Northwest NewsChannel 8’s HD channel is carried on channel 708 on Comcast. It is also carried by both Dish and DirecTV satellite providers. Over the air, the channel is 8.1.

Let's hope they are also getting new HD/digital broadcast equipment in addition to the studio/camera stuff. According to the FAQ they have posted it sounds like they may be...


ron

> January 21, 2008
> 3-D radar in HD.

I hope I can find my red and blue 3D glasses by then.

> Sky8, the KGW Helicopter, will also broadcast in full HD.

Of course with the EXPLETIVE helicopter flying around, no one
will be able to receive the TV signal, or even hear themselves
think.

http://www.kgw.com/news/pdf/KGW-HD-News.doc

Let's hope they are also getting new HD/digital broadcast equipment in addition to the studio/camera stuff. According to the FAQ they have posted it sounds like they may be...



Bad news/good news. Unfortunately for now, they are not getting a new encoder :(. But the good news is that Eric is pushing for one. Here's the reply he sent me when I asked:

No, we are not approved for a new encoder yet. I am working on that.

Eric


ron

One more little update on KGW going HD. I had seen something in their Q&A last night that I had meant to ask Eric about and forgot, so I sent him another email this afternoon to check on it. The Q&A was this:

What if I just have an old analog TV set?

You will see a slight "letterbox" effect, with a narrow black strip at the
top and bottom of your screen. KGW is pioneering a technique that will be
less intrusive for the analog viewer.


When I asked what exactly they were planning on doing he said:

We plan to slightly letter box the SD analog broadcast. The industry has
found that most old analog receivers over scan by at least 5% top and
bottom. So, we think this will be better, as it gives us more space in HD
to play with.


I asked if this meant that instead of shooting all their footage 4:3 protected they might be able to go closer to 5:3 or something and he said yes. So at least they will be able to actually take advantage of part of the extra real estate at the sides of the widescreen frame and it won't all be wasted space...


ron

Sort of related in the opposite way.

In a thread in HDTV Programming I read that some crazy NBC affiliates are so repulsed by the network's letterboxed programming that they're center cutting and downconverting the HD feed to fill the 4:3 area on their SD channel. I can't imagine how stupid the interviews in the Office look with half of the person's face off the side of the screen while everyone gets a clear view of an empty office window in the middle of the screen!

In a thread in HDTV Programming I read that some crazy NBC affiliates are so repulsed by the network's letterboxed programming that they're center cutting and down converting the HD feed to fill the 4:3 area on their SD channel.Sadly misguided souls... unlike the progressive and enlightened people out here. Of course, come Jan 20 I'm sure KGW will be deluged with calls/emails from irate SD viewers wanting to know what the heck's wrong with their feed :D


ron

Last night the PQ on CSI was absolutely awful. Especially during the night club scenes with the bright flashing lights and such there was major macro blocking. I had something recording on the other TIVO tuner so I wasn't able to directly compare broadcast to cable HD on CSI. I tried comparing the two sources on Without a Trace after CSI but during the time I watched that there were no scenes which would have exposed this problem.

Anyone else notice a bad picture during CSI last night?

Yeah, it was horrific.

Last night the PQ on CSI was absolutely awful. Especially during the night club scenes with the bright flashing lights and such there was major macro blocking. I had something recording on the other TIVO tuner so I wasn't able to directly compare broadcast to cable HD on CSI. I tried comparing the two sources on Without a Trace after CSI but during the time I watched that there were no scenes which would have exposed this problem.

Anyone else notice a bad picture during CSI last night?

Yes - noticed it as well. I was a little surprised then decided it was having problems with the bursts of light from the flashes in the nightclub. But then it happened a few more time at places thata were normally fine.

Rick

Here's the worst snap of that CSI episode:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/CSI12.jpg

I'm hoping they get this HDTV thing working in a few more years so I can see people's faces clearly like I could on my old NTSC set.

So I have the Blazer game on and it would appear to me that KGW HD either wants to ruin viewers Plasma displays or doesn't want people with Plasma displays to watch their broadcast of the Blazer game. Those sidebars, and the red stripe running down the left side of the picture with a with a white one down the right side. Just looking to burn in a Plasma, red is one of the worst colors you can have as a static image on a plasma. And of course the game isn't in HD either. Sucks all around.

Why would the Blazer game be in HD on KGW? The sidebars won't cause a burn-in on your screen, unless you pause the video and leave it up on your screen for a few days.

Why would the Blazer game be in HD on KGW? Well, considering they are claiming they will be the first ALL HD channel in January why WOULDN'T it be? WHY SHOULDN'T it be?

HD is not some new technology. The game should be in HD. Really sucks that if you want HD games it looks like you will have to pony up and enrich Comcast and their unfair business practices to get the games on the new Comcast Sports channel.

And yes, leaving your set on a static image for a couple hours is NOT going to be good for your plasma display. It may not cause a serious burn in, but it's certainly not doing your screen any favors either.

When color television first started prime-time broadcasting it took 13 years before all prime-time broadcasts were in color. It'll take time before everyone has all HD cameras and HD transmission equipment.

Why would the Blazer game be in HD on KGW? Well, considering they are claiming they will be the first ALL HD channel in January why WOULDN'T it be? WHY SHOULDN'T it be?

HD is not some new technology. The game should be in HD. Really sucks that if you want HD games it looks like you will have to pony up and enrich Comcast and their unfair business practices to get the games on the new Comcast Sports channel.

And yes, leaving your set on a static image for a couple hours is NOT going to be good for your plasma display. It may not cause a serious burn in, but it's certainly not doing your screen any favors either.


No, KGW is claiming that it's news will be in HD, not that every single thing will be in HD. Sure the game should be in HD, but currently KGW doesn't have the facility to broadcast like Comcast or Fox Sports does. I do agree with your Comcast rant though, I hope that Verizon (who might be close to a deal with them, hence the rate increase in Jan), DirecTV, and Dish all tell them to stick it. This isn't the 80's and 90's Blazermania anymore.

KGW does do some of it's Blazer games in HD. The next scheduled one is on Christmas day...

Having something up on the screen in place of the black side bars is better than having nothing there in terms of burn-in/image retention. Either way, with current plasma technology a couple hours of game time (broken up with commercials) is not going to do any harm.

I'm really getting tired of hearing all the whining from non-comcast people regarding not getting Comcast Sports Net. Unfair business practices my ass. Comcast paid prime money for the rights to those games. If the other cheap ass providers do not want to pony up for them, that's tough sh*t. Bitch to them. You guys sound like little disciples of the clueless idiot Canzano.


ron

I have no beef with Comcast having the rights, nor DirecTV and Dish standing their ground saying that they won't agree to Comcast's demands. The only people who lose are Blazer fans and the Blazers themselves. Comcast could care less who watches and who doesn't.

I really hate the way certain sports seem to require you to pay a bunch of money to watch them on TV...complete with just as many commercials as channels that are free over the air.

Pac 10 games, you want to see the Beavers or Ducks? Better have cable...of course you can count on just about every USC or UCLA game on the major broadcast networks. Blazer Basketball now will require you pony up a bunch of money each month to catch most games. I wouldn't have such a problem with cable if they didn't charge customers a ton of money for a bunch of channels many don't watch, and all the channels are FULL of commercials, paid programming, and then of course the shop at home channels. It's a rip off, and the rip off gets more expensive every year with no end in sight seeing as so many people are so happy to pay through the nose for 20 minutes of commercials in every hour of programming. Remember when commercials were what paid for TV?

Looks like Verizon is a player with some balls:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/business/2007/12/verizon_cable_has_deal_to_carr.html

Hopefully you guys with the, uh, "thrifty" providers will now see some kind of domino effect and they will begin to get down to brass tacks as well. I didn't mean anything personal to anyone, it's just a sore point with me as I spend a fair amount of time reading Blazer boards during the season and it has really gotten old. If I had not switched to Comcast last year at this time I'm sure I would be unhappy now as well. But I wouldn't be blaming Comcast and I definitely wouldn't be blaming the Blazers. Hopefully it will all be water under the bridge soon...


ron

Looks like Verizon is a player with some balls:

http://blog.oregonlive.com/business/2007/12/verizon_cable_has_deal_to_carr.html

Hopefully you guys with the, uh, "thrifty" providers will now see some kind of domino effect and they will begin to get down to brass tacks as well. I didn't mean anything personal to anyone, it's just a sore point with me as I spend a fair amount of time reading Blazer boards during the season and it has really gotten old. If I had not switched to Comcast last year at this time I'm sure I would be unhappy now as well. But I wouldn't be blaming Comcast and I definitely wouldn't be blaming the Blazers. Hopefully it will all be water under the bridge soon...


ron

I think if anyone is to "blame" for the situation it has to laid on the Blazers. They knew a new major provider was coming into the market (Verizon). Yet they signed an exclusive deal with Comcast to the exclusion of a good portion of the fan base. It's odd how that excluded Allen's own Charter group.

From a business standpoint I would have to applaud Comcast for getting that deal. What leverage! Who knows what Verizon had to pay. It could cover a major portion of Comcast's original deal since I suspect Verizon is licking it's chops to have this and the NFL Network (altho maybe too late in the current season) in it's basic lineup to induce more subs abandoning Comcast for FiOS. This sounds like a lose/lose deal for Comcast locally.

OK, last night on KOIN CSI NY looked awful in spots of high action and fast cutaways. This time I was able to record both OTA 6.1 and Comcast 706 (I have limited basic and my Tivo has both QAM and cable card so I can get the same free OTA channels in HD on Comcast.)

Anyway, the Comcast Cable HD looked bad too so either CBS itself is sending out a bad picture, or Comcast is getting the bad picture from KOIN. Either way, I'm glad I don't pay a ton for my Comcast Cable and get that rotten picture. I'm thinking the FCC should give the broadcasters MORE bandwidth, at least twice as much. I think skimping them on bandwidth is purely to protect Cable, wouldn't want broadcasters pumping out several HD channels and sub channels in higher quality then cable after all.

The only reason I still have any Comcast TV is because the difference in price between just having my Comcast Broadband and having Comcast Broadband and Limited basic is about a dollar. Of course the only channels I get on limited basic I can't get free OTA are the old Discovery channel and a few cable access channels, C-span and home shopping channels, oh and Comcast doesn't have KPDX 49 in HD, as well as a few other OTA channels I get for free.

Comcast doesn't have KPDX 49 in HD, as well as a few other OTA channels I get for free.

They added KPDX a few days ago, but there are still a few minor ones missing, such as qubo (22.something).

My kids love Qubo 22.2

Oh, yes indeed, there's 713. I've had my Tivo unplugged for most of the week so I could plug my Toshiba HD A2 into my wireless bridge and download some of the online extras for a couple movies I was watching. I'll have to plug Tivo back in and get an update. :)

I really hate the way certain sports seem to require you to pay a bunch of money to watch them on TV...complete with just as many commercials as channels that are free over the air.

Pac 10 games, you want to see the Beavers or Ducks? Better have cable...of course you can count on just about every USC or UCLA game on the major broadcast networks. Blazer Basketball now will require you pony up a bunch of money each month to catch most games. I wouldn't have such a problem with cable if they didn't charge customers a ton of money for a bunch of channels many don't watch, and all the channels are FULL of commercials, paid programming, and then of course the shop at home channels. It's a rip off, and the rip off gets more expensive every year with no end in sight seeing as so many people are so happy to pay through the nose for 20 minutes of commercials in every hour of programming. Remember when commercials were what paid for TV?


The Beavers are Fox Sports "property", don't be lumping them in with the Blazers and Ducks. The Shopping channels actually pay your provider to be shown, you get rid of them and your bill would actually increase!

Anyway, the Comcast Cable HD looked bad too so either CBS itself is sending out a bad picture, or Comcast is getting the bad picture from KOIN. Either way, I'm glad I don't pay a ton for my Comcast Cable and get that rotten picture. I'm thinking the FCC should give the broadcasters MORE bandwidth, at least twice as much. I think skimping them on bandwidth is purely to protect Cable, wouldn't want broadcasters pumping out several HD channels and sub channels in higher quality then cable after all.

Comcast gets its local broadcast channels directly from the stations, so it's no surprise the pictures looked the same.
Even the locals that don't have sub-channels don't use the full ATSC 19.4Mbps, so doubling it would accomplish little.

Hey everyone,

I'm new to the area and want to get OTA signals. I've got an HDTV and a HDTV receiver (Samsung DTB-H260F) and a cheap indoor antenna from Target. I'm in North Portland, not more than 5 miles from any of the stations with no major blockages and am not getting a good/reliable reception.

Any tips on a different antenna? Or other ideas?

Thanks, Sorry if you guys get this Q a lot.

Joe

I think if anyone is to "blame" for the situation it has to laid on the Blazers. They knew a new major provider was coming into the market (Verizon). Yet they signed an exclusive deal with Comcast to the exclusion of a good portion of the fan base. It's odd how that excluded Allen's own Charter group.

From a business standpoint I would have to applaud Comcast for getting that deal. What leverage! Who knows what Verizon had to pay. It could cover a major portion of Comcast's original deal since I suspect Verizon is licking it's chops to have this and the NFL Network (altho maybe too late in the current season) in it's basic lineup to induce more subs abandoning Comcast for FiOS. This sounds like a lose/lose deal for Comcast locally.Ridge, it's really not much different than it was previously with FSN. The Blazer cable package rights are always owned by whomever purchases them. Whereas FSN bought and owned the rights to produce the "blazer cable" package before, Comcast Sports Net bought the rights this time around when FSN decided they didn't want to pay what the Blazers were asking (CSN is actually a separate entity - a group of regional sports networks that just happens to be mostly owned by Comcast Corporation the cable company). With FSN, all the various providers had to negotiate financial agreements to carry their channel (and the Blazer game package they owned the rights to). Same with FSN now. So it's really no more exclusive now than it was before.

I think the big thing is that FSN had a low cost deal on their previous contract because when it was negotiated, the demand for the games was very low due to the issues with the team and players. Since the Blazers had turned the team around bringing in quality players on and off the court, they felt the demand was higher and would continue to rise so they wanted a higher price which FSN declined to pay. CSN seized the opportunity and jumped on it (I believe it was a fairly long term deal, like 5 or 10 years). That was before we landed the #1 pick and Oden... CSN paid 3X what the previous Blazer cable contract was. I'm sure that's by far their biggest cost from a programming standpoint, so it means any provider that wants to carry the channel will also be paying more for it. Verizon, with their new service just launching, didn't see the logic in wasting time dicking around trying to wait out CSN for a better deal they likely wouldn't have gotten anyway. I'm guessing most of the rest of them will eventually come to the same conclusion...


ron

Hey everyone,

I'm new to the area and want to get OTA signals. I've got an HDTV and a HDTV receiver (Samsung DTB-H260F) and a cheap indoor antenna from Target. I'm in North Portland, not more than 5 miles from any of the stations with no major blockages and am not getting a good/reliable reception.

Any tips on a different antenna? Or other ideas?

Thanks, Sorry if you guys get this Q a lot.

JoeThe easiest place to start is to get a long enough piece of coax that it allows you to try different locations for your antenna. Don't forget that elevation can make a big difference too. If it's not, try to get the antenna on the west side of your house.
I that doesn't work then try a Silver Sensor indoor antenna as it's be shown to be one of the best.

On Friday (Dec. 14th) NewsHour with Jim Lehrer had an extended piece on their move to HD and the fact that they will start the HD broadcast on Monday (Dec. 17th). OPB's HD programming schedule for the entire week of the 17th has not changed and does not include the HD broadcast of the Newshour. I sent an e-mail to OPB and am awaiting a response. Anyone with any updated info. on this?

Konrad2>> quantizer noise artifacts? Is this the source of the green smear?

scowl> Green smear?

You know, the green smear you found in that image from _Chuck_.

----------------------

scowl> Here's the worst snap of that CSI episode:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/CSI12.jpg

Wow! "horrific" is right!

This is different than any other DTV problem I've seen. I've had better
reception from cheap motel TVs in the middle of nowhere.

This ATSC crap simply doesn't get the job done. Reception is not reliable,
stations use *way* too much compression, etc. etc.

Question is, what can we do about it? One idea: a Galley of Shame where these
stills and clips can be collected and once there is a sufficiently impressive
collection, show it to the FCC and Congress. Clips of Senators who look
or sound like Martians due to DTV problems should be especially effective.

Other ideas?

----------------------

frederic1943> When color television first started prime-time broadcasting
frederic1943> it took 13 years before all prime-time broadcasts were in color.

So in three years all prime-time broadcasts will be in HD?

You know, the green smear you found in that image from _Chuck_.
No, the green smear was not in the lower eight pixels of the screen where the neighboring "undefined" eight pixels in 1080i are.

This ATSC crap simply doesn't get the job done. Reception is not reliable,
stations use *way* too much compression, etc. etc.
ATSC works very well. Receivers have gotten more reliable and easier to use every year. I've gone from second to third to fourth generation receivers and the fourth generation receiver is incredibly indifferent to antenna position.

The fact that stations overcompress and ruin their picture quality has nothing to do with ATSC. If you ever saw a football game on KOIN back when Lee gave us a full HD bitstream you'd know how well it can work if stations wanted it to work well.

So in three years all prime-time broadcasts will be in HD?
That's very possible. Unfortunately upgrading to NTSC color equipment was a walk in the park compared to switching everything over to digtal and HD.

Seems like 10-1 (OPB-HD) and 10-3 (Create) have vanished from my Comcast the last couple of days. Anyone else seeing this problem? It's happened before, but usually doesn't last this long.

BTW I have ultra-basic cable (no box, no $$ extra for HD), and a QAM/ATSC tuner.

Konrad2>> quantizer noise artifacts? Is this the source of the green smear?

scowl>> Green smear?

Konrad2> You know, the green smear you found in that image from _Chuck_.

scowl> No, the green smear was not in the lower eight pixels of the screen
scowl> where the neighboring "undefined" eight pixels in 1080i are.

So you are saying that "quantizer noise artifacts" can only happen in the
lower 8 lines? Yes, the "quantizer noise artifacts" quote was from the
1080 vs 1088 discussion, but I assume the problem can occur anywhere in
the picture.

----------------------

Konrad2> This ATSC crap simply doesn't get the job done. Reception is not reliable,
Konrad2> stations use *way* too much compression, etc. etc.

scowl> ATSC works very well. Receivers have gotten more reliable and easier to use
scowl> every year. I've gone from second to third to fourth generation receivers
scowl> and the fourth generation receiver is incredibly indifferent to antenna position.

"indifferent to antenna position" is not the goal. Reliable reception is the goal.
ATSC/8VSB fails MISERABLY at providing reliable reception, even with 5th gen demods.
There is no excuse for a modern digital system to be such a piece of crap.

scowl> The fact that stations overcompress and ruin their picture quality has nothing
scowl> to do with ATSC.

The overcompression is a different problem, but with the same result.

Seems like 10-1 (OPB-HD) and 10-3 (Create) have vanished from my Comcast the last couple of days. Anyone else seeing this problem? It's happened before, but usually doesn't last this long.

BTW I have ultra-basic cable (no box, no $$ extra for HD), and a QAM/ATSC tuner.

Well I wasted 10 minutes in online chat w/Comcast trying to resolve my missing channels, but the rep insisted that with my limited basic cable account I shouldn't be getting *any* HD channels. But I'm getting all the HD networks and I think I'm supposed to, because of the "must carry" rule right? That's the FCC that forces cable providers to make all local OTA channels available to subscribers. But does this only apply to analog broadcasts, or does it extend to digital broadcasts as well? I'm guess it does or Comcast wouldn't be letting me get *any* HD without paying for it!

Seems like 10-1 (OPB-HD) and 10-3 (Create) have vanished from my Comcast the last couple of days. Anyone else seeing this problem? It's happened before, but usually doesn't last this long.

BTW I have ultra-basic cable (no box, no $$ extra for HD), and a QAM/ATSC tuner.
Well I wasted 10 minutes in online chat w/Comcast trying to resolve my missing channels, but the rep insisted that with my limited basic cable account I shouldn't be getting *any* HD channels. But I'm getting all the HD networks and I think I'm supposed to, because of the "must carry" rule right? That's the FCC that forces cable providers to make all local OTA channels available to subscribers. But does this only apply to analog broadcasts, or does it extend to digital broadcasts as well? I'm guess it does or Comcast wouldn't be letting me get *any* HD without paying for it!
Sashazur, Comcast moved them to different channels, just rescan and you should find them again.

This is the thread for Over the Air discussion here in Portland, the thread for Comcast discussion can be found at the link below.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=12506750#post12506750

This is the reply I received from OPB regarding the HD broadcast of the newshour. Looks like we're out of luck!:(

-------------------
Thank you for contacting Oregon Public Broadcasting. I appreciate your taking the time to write.

I apologize for the inconvenience. The NewsHour will not been shown in HD by us at this time. This is not yet being offered to us by PBS on the main HD channel that we receive from them, but on an alternate feed that would require us to do a conversion that is prohibitively expensive. If PBS changes the broadcast to the main HD feed, we will be able to offer this to our viewers.

Please be aware that even though the broadcast will not actually be in HD, it will appear in the letterbox format.

So PBS has at least 2 HD feeds. You know what that means.
Once a few more pledges roll in OPB will cram 2 HD
subchannels in, along with 3 or 4 SD subchannels.

Since PBS charges stations for their HD feed, that's very unlikely. Many PBS stations around the country have dropped all HD to save money. It's more likely that PBS is putting NewsHour on a cheaper feed.

For those of you wanting the PBS Newshour in HD, check out

http://www.opb.org/television/daily.php?y=2007&m=12&d=25&chan=hd
http://www.opb.org/television/daily.php?y=2007&m=12&d=27&chan=hd

Before you get toooo excited, this is likely to be an error in
the listings, given the inconsistent listings (3pm on tuesday,
6pm on thursday, nothing on mon, wed, or fri) and the reply
that Hormoz received. And the titan listings disagree.
But who knows, OPB's scheduling is screwy enough that this
could be right.

Don't know if it matters but KOIN on comcast now has header of 13.75mbps instead of 19mbps. Does this mean even during football they won't turn it to 16mbps? or it doesn't matter?

NO HD ON THE SEAHAWKS GAME! It started out HD but then it switched. Someone asleep at the switch?

What is with KOIN??? CBS has some great shows but KOIN skimps on bandwidth and consequently the shows look like garbage in HD if there is any fast action. This really isn't acceptable. If KPTV can look awesome all the time then KOIN should be able to as well.
(Frankly I think KGW and KATU also have issues as well.)

I have never seen a bad picture during any of the HD shows I watch on KPTV and of course the Seahawks games always look great. I always am a little bummed out when the Hawks are on a network other than Fox, Fox does a great job with sports, the best in my opinion.

NO HD ON THE SEAHAWKS GAME! It started out HD but then it switched.
No it did not. It was SD from the first kickoff.

And if you bother to check the NFL on CBS Week 16 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=959804) thread, you'll see this game was scheduled to be broadcast in SD several days ago.

> KOIN skimps on bandwidth and consequently the shows look like
> garbage in HD if there is any fast action.

> Frankly I think KGW and KATU also have issues as well.

They do. OPB is even worse. Not sure what KATU's problem is since
they are only running one channel.

Sometimes it doesn't take fast action to screw up the picture.
A moderate camera pan and the picture goes soft/blurry.

> I have never seen a bad picture during any of the HD shows I watch on KPTV

Come to think of it, I don't recall ever seeing compression artifacts on
KPTV or KPDX. What's their secret?

WOW, reading that thread you provided I'd say the NFL should revoke CBS's rights to broadcast another NFL game until they get their act together. Looks like CBS has tons of problems, what's up with that?

Like I said before, I get a little bummed every time I see that Seattle won't be on FOX.

I guess the reason I thought it started out HD was because the previous game was, and so was a good part of the pre-game. Why they didn't give the Seahawks an HD feed I just don't understand. Frankly, as big a network as CBS is they should be able to provide HD feeds for all games. The NFL should require it. If this were MY product I wouldn't want someone displaying it on the cheap, and making a bundle doing it. Have a little pride NFL, don't put up with sub-par broadcasts give the fans a Five Star product every time.

ya man, Im pissed off. My brother and law come down from Olympia to watch the game on my new HT and it was friggen low def. CBS sucks....

Come to think of it, I don't recall ever seeing compression artifacts on
KPTV or KPDX. What's their secret?

Artifacts are easier to hide with 60 fps since they disappear faster. If you look closely, you'll see they're just as bad as any other HD station in town. Here's a snap from 24 that's pretty typical:

http://home.pacifier.com/~scowl/hdtv/24block.jpg

WOW, reading that thread you provided I'd say the NFL should revoke CBS's rights to broadcast another NFL game until they get their act together. Looks like CBS has tons of problems, what's up with that?
People are always complaining about something. I guess it makes them feel better.

Why they didn't give the Seahawks an HD feed I just don't understand.
"Give" them a "feed"? If you mean give a particular team their own exclusive satellite backfeed well that's just not how football broadcasting works.

The reason this game wasn't HD is simple: the Seahawks have already won their division and the Ravens came into this game wiht a 4-10 record with no post season chances. This was a utterly meaningless game in terms of the playoffs.

Frankly, as big a network as CBS is they should be able to provide HD feeds for all games.
No one is making you watch their SD broadcasts, are they? Don't watch them and CBS will surely cave in.

CBS has increased the number of games they broadcast in HD this season and probably will next season. It's not a matter of flipping a switch.

The NFL should require it. If this were MY product I wouldn't want someone displaying it on the cheap, and making a bundle doing it.
Where I work, we get customers to purchase our products so they'll make lots of money with them. Our goal is to help them make money. That is how we make money.

No it did not. It was SD from the first kickoff.

I agree...in 4:3!

But the replays on ESPN were in HD. So it wasn't that there weren't HD cameras on the field. It was bandwidth in sending the feed.

But the replays on ESPN were in HD. So it wasn't that there weren't HD cameras on the field. It was bandwidth in sending the feed.


Reminds me of the days when color came out. We had to fiddle with color and tint for every show...IF it was, in fact broadcast in color as advertised!

Reminds me of the days when color came out. We had to fiddle with color and tint for every show
Are things really that much better now? I'm quite disappointed in the color changes from channel to channel and from program to program. Yes, the changes are more subtle than they used to be. But they're still there.

Are things really that much better now? I'm quite disappointed in the color changes from channel to channel and from program to program. Yes, the changes are more subtle than they used to be. But they're still there.


Well, I am surprised at how hard this all is for the nonGeeks. Most I know are not going to bother with HDTV, DVD-HD, Blu-Ray because of it!

Well, I am surprised at how hard this all is for the nonGeeks. Most I know are not going to bother with HDTV, DVD-HD, Blu-Ray because of it!


I like the people who buy these big HDTV's and don't change their cable/satellite setup. They think that just because the tv is HD, that everything they now see is HD.

They must not read their manuals, because the manuals with almost every HD set makes clear what is needed to actually have an HD picture.

>>> I have never seen a bad picture during any of the HD shows I watch on KPTV

>> Come to think of it, I don't recall ever seeing compression artifacts on
>> KPTV or KPDX. What's their secret?

> Artifacts are easier to hide with 60 fps since they disappear faster. If you
> look closely, you'll see they're just as bad as any other HD station in town.
> Here's a snap from 24 that's pretty typical:

I see a dark band at the top, and maybe a color smear around the guy's head,
(not as obvious as the green one from Chuck) is that what you're talking about?

KATU is 720p60 same as KPTV and KPDX, yes?

-------------

} Are things really that much better now? I'm quite disappointed in the color
} changes from channel to channel and from program to program. Yes, the changes
} are more subtle than they used to be. But they're still there.

And the changes in brightness.

NTSC = Never Twice the Same Color

ATSC = Almost The Same Color
Artifacts Through Severe Compression

Maybe when they do another upgrade in 50 years they'll get it right.

They must not read their manuals, because the manuals with almost every HD set makes clear what is needed to actually have an HD picture.

I was in the manual writing business for many years (though not for TVs) and I can assure you that almost no one reads any manual of any sort.

But HD via cable or satellite is much easier for non-techies to get working.

The first 59 minutes of this afternoon's Blazer game were in glorious 4:3. Then someone flipped the switch to 16:9. Not sure if it was true HD, but the quality was pretty good.

Still, 59 minutes of 4:3??? I guess whoever drew the short straw to work on Christmas isn't exactly a rocket scientist.

The first 59 minutes of this afternoon's Blazer game were in glorious 4:3. Then someone flipped the switch to 16:9. Not sure if it was true HD, but the quality was pretty good.

Still, 59 minutes of 4:3??? I guess whoever drew the short straw to work on Christmas isn't exactly a rocket scientist.

I almost got the feeling that the switch from SD to HD was automated (no one in the office for the holiday, just automate it), the broadcast seemed to change at exactly 6:00 pm. Likely just coincidence.

Once it went to HD, the picture quality was decent, but the broadcast had many issues - going to a blank gray screen a few times, and some weird cut ins and outs during the halftime presentation.

Far from perfect, but I'll take it. For an OTA person like me, it was the first chance I had to see the Blazers in HD, and 11 in a row and counting doesn't hurt either.

So, I guess NBC and CBS will carry the New England Game Saturday at 5. However, I do not see the guides being updated yet. Can anyone confirm?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3169075

Confirmed: The guides have not yet been updated. :-)

Yeah, NFL network has announced it so it would seem we just need to wait for the guides to update so people can schedule their DVRs
http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d80579400&template=with-video&confirm=true

I almost got the feeling that the switch from SD to HD was automated (no one in the office for the holiday, just automate it), the broadcast seemed to change at exactly 6:00 pm. Likely just coincidence.

Once it went to HD, the picture quality was decent, but the broadcast had many issues - going to a blank gray screen a few times, and some weird cut ins and outs during the halftime presentation.

Far from perfect, but I'll take it. For an OTA person like me, it was the first chance I had to see the Blazers in HD, and 11 in a row and counting doesn't hurt either.They had some serious issues going on there all right. I had set the game up to record and I just happened to check on it about 10 minutes in and saw the SD with numerous glitches etc. Luckily it was also on TNT-HD (or was it ESPN-HD?) so I started up a recording for that and stopped the one on KGW.


ron

When the switch is thrown in Feb. "09" which stations will be transmitting
digital on their VHF channel?

I've heard KGW moves their digital signal to VHF 8 and turns off the UHF transmitter but what about the other stations?

EDIT: I found this FCC doc that shows KGW, KOPB and KPTV all go back to their original VHF channels.
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A1.pdf (Go to page 113)

I couldn't find KATU or KOIN in the list.

All the upper VHF stations will be moving their ATSC to VHF channels. The rest (KATU and KOIN) will stay UHF.

KGW's future was up in the air about a year ago because the FCC was concerned that their VHF channel would interfere with a PBS station to the south. I don't know if they've decided that yet.

When the switch is thrown in Feb. "09" which stations will be transmitting
digital on their VHF channel?

I've heard KGW moves their digital signal to VHF 8 and turns off the UHF transmitter but what about the other stations?

EDIT: I found this FCC doc that shows KGW, KOPB and KPTV all go back to their original VHF channels.
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-138A1.pdf (Go to page 113)

I couldn't find KATU or KOIN in the list.
Check the first post in this thread.



Kudos to KOIN for dropping the SD feed for the game today.